1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to the MLK Tapes, a production of I Heart 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: Radio and Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in 3 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: this podcast are solely those of the podcast author for 4 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent those 5 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: of I Heart Media, Tenderfoot TV, or their employees. Listener 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: discretion is advised. After several hours of questioning and cross examining, 7 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: Ray told him that there was no such person as Raoul, 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:32,919 Speaker 1: and he knew there was no such person as Raoul. 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 1: He admitted that and told me that he had to 10 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: invent in vent Rayoul, because that's fuck Hughie wanted. He 11 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: suggested something that implied that I had more acuity than Bradford, 12 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: Huey and Hayes. I asked him how you happened to 13 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: pick the name Raoul, and he said that was the 14 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: name of a operator of a party house that he 15 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: had held up, and he admitted there was no Raoul. 16 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: He laughed at Haines and Hewish, having accepted Rayoul's story. 17 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: That was Percy Foreman, former attorney for James Arl Ray, 18 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: telling the House Select Committee in ninety eight that Ray 19 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 1: had told him that the whole story about Raoul, giving 20 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 1: him money and moving him about the country was made up, 21 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: and that Ray had done this because the writer Bradford Huey, 22 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: who Ray had never met, had wanted him to do it. 23 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: According to Foreman, the reason that Ray told him this 24 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: but had never told anyone else, was that he respected 25 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 1: Foreman's intelligence, that he knew that Foreman would see through 26 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: his lie about Raoul, and according to Foreman, they had 27 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: a good laugh about it. Of course, it may have 28 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: been Foreman making up the story here, but if it 29 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: were rely on his part, it was a safe one 30 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: to tell, because at that time no one had found 31 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: the mysterious Raoul or even claimed to know of him. 32 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: I called the Union Hall, I said, a matter of 33 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: life and death. I said, I think these people are 34 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: planning to kill Dr King. The authorities were parade. Oh, 35 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: we found a gun that James ol Ray bought in 36 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: Birmingham that killed Dr King. Except it wasn't the gun 37 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: that killed Dr King. James Lvey was upon for the 38 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: official story from My Heart Radio, intended for TV. The 39 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 1: plan was to get King to the city because they 40 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: wanted it handled in Memphis for dead in them could 41 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: hand it. And I've lived with it so long. My Sirion, 42 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: and they they scared for me. The Lord told me 43 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: to not the word. I've been wanting to tell it 44 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: all my life. I'm Bill Claiburg and this is d 45 00:02:52,200 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: MLK tapes. As we heard in previous episodes, James Earl 46 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: Ray escaped from prison in nineteen sixty seven and a 47 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: year later found himself in Memphis on the day King 48 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: was killed. After he had been captured, he told his 49 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: attorneys and anyone else who would listen that he had 50 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: met a man in Canada named Raoul who had moved 51 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 1: him about the country and gave him money in exchange 52 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: for odd chores. But while most details in race story 53 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: proved to be true, for example, the restaurant where he worked, 54 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: or the woman with whom he had a brief affair, 55 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: no one was able to find Raoul, not a big 56 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: surprise because Ray never knew Raoul's last name, where he lived, 57 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: or even for Raoul was his real first name, and 58 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: Raoul most likely didn't want to be found. The official 59 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: explanation for how Ray financed his travels, and the one 60 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: embraced by the House Committee, was that instead of getting 61 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: money from the fictional Raoul, Ray robbed a bank or two, 62 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: and that if he had any help, it came from 63 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: his brothers John and Jerry. So for twenty five years, 64 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: no one had come up with a good lead as 65 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: to who them his serious Raoul might be, if he 66 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: had existed at all. But then after seeing the trial 67 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: on television, Roy and Glenna Grabo contacted John Billings and 68 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: Ken Herman, who were investigators working with Bill Pepper and 69 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: producer Jack Saltman on the HBO trial. We met with 70 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: a blended Grabow and rom. She first said, I mean 71 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: they they're almost Their openly statement was we know the ray, 72 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: but we don't know it's the Rays. And we listened 73 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: to her story about her early life in Houston, Texas 74 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: and the stories and her meeting and this mysterious Rayoul, 75 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: and and after it was over, when they left, I 76 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 1: was convinced that she was a government plan. That's my 77 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: disposity is that this is incredible story and it's just government. 78 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 1: They've sent somebody here to discredit us with the story. 79 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: And if we're gonna go chasing this Roman in depart 80 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: because we're telling over kids saslation sounds very scared. After 81 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: hearing Glenda's story, Herman and Billings brought it to Jack Saltman, 82 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,799 Speaker 1: with whom they had begun work on a proposed movie 83 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: that would be about the murder of Dr. King. Saltman 84 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: also found Glenda's story hard to believe, as he explained 85 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: at the civil trial. She claimed that her friendship would Raoul, 86 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: had all taken place at you still, and his story 87 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 1: was so extraordinary that when I first heard it, I 88 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 1: had to say that I was profoundly scared. But yes, 89 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: we did go to Houston. Um. There was only parts 90 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: of the story that I could get corroberational. As a 91 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: parts of the story that I could corroborate. We're all 92 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: corroborated bits of the story. You turned out to the address, 93 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 1: and he leads you to then more credibility to the 94 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: rest of the story. So she gained an increduence. Can 95 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: I ask if they say one of this lady, a 96 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: very uneducated lady. She left to watch she was very young. 97 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: She had a reminous life of abuse when she was young. 98 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: By the time Bill Pepper had sat down with Glenda, 99 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: thirty five years had passed since she was first abused 100 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: by members of her family, but it was still a 101 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: hard story for her to tell. According to her husband Roy, 102 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: the abuse of Glenda, much of its sexual began when 103 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: she was eleven or twelve. When things became intolerable at home, 104 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: Glenda went to live with her aunt and uncle, but 105 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: things there became even worse. Late at night, Glenda's uncle 106 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: would come into her room. What's that is not? My 107 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: aunt knew that, but she didn't neventhing about it. And 108 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: I would babysit for kids, never night that never want 109 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 1: unique food, I'd say, the kids and and everything cleaned 110 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:53,239 Speaker 1: the table off and made me throw at the trash. 111 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: I meant nothing to It's hard to understand the withholding 112 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: of food from a niece who was living with them. 113 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: Perhaps the aunt allowed herself to believe that Glenda was 114 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: somehow responsible for her husband's criminal conduct, and withholding food 115 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: was revenge or an attempt to drive the girl away. 116 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: Whatever it was, Glenda at age fourteen was in a 117 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: horrific situation. But after school she would walk past a 118 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: particular gas station and there would usually be this man 119 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: just hanging around every day, and he would be easy 120 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: to be sitting out over here drinking a coach or something. 121 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: Instead giving the tighter chips since step keep me going anyway. 122 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: Conversation and potato chips were a big draw for Glenda, 123 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: and she got to know this fellow who was called Dago. 124 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: She thought he was about thirty. He had dark hair 125 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: and spoke with something like a Spanish accent, and he 126 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: could never pronounce her name. He called her, oh, Linda. 127 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: Glenda never saw Dago pump gas at the station, but 128 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: he always seemed to be there. Someone else who encountered 129 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: Dago was Glenn, his little brother Royce. Here is what 130 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: Royce remembers about Daego, as portrayed by a voice actor. 131 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: There was a small gas station by a store my 132 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: sister and I would walk to, and he would see 133 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: us go by, and he would get in his car 134 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: and follow us. He used to follow my sister and 135 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: I around, you know, in his car. He was kind 136 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: of a dark complexed guy. I guess he talked Spanish 137 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: or some other you know. That's why he kind of 138 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: stood out to me, and and I was kind of 139 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: scared of him. But Glenda never had an unkind thing 140 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: to say about Daego during this time. At least, she 141 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: regarded him as a friend and saw him frequently that 142 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: first year, But the next year, when Glenda was fifteen, 143 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,559 Speaker 1: she escaped her home life by marrying Roy Grabo. It 144 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: wasn't a great trade. Roy was in prison a lot 145 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: of the time, and when he was out he often 146 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: didn't come home at night. Here going forward are Roy 147 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: and Glenda Grabo, as portrayed by voice actors. I just 148 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: got to drinking. I wasn't holding the job too long, 149 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: but she pretty well went where she wanted to go. 150 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I was doing what I wanted to do. 151 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: I guess I did. Anyway, I stayed drunk pretty good. 152 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: Glenda and Roy moved around a bit, but since Roy 153 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: was hardly there and not bringing money home, Glenda, as 154 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: Roy just said, went where she wanted to go. She 155 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: found some men who would pay for her attentions, and 156 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 1: that's how she kept her boat afloat. There was one 157 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: older man, maybe fifty five or sixty, who was particularly 158 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: fond of Glenda. This name was Tomorrow, though Glenda and 159 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 1: others called him Armando. He would look out for her 160 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,839 Speaker 1: in small ways, and in return, she became his driver. 161 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: Where would they go down to the Houston Docks? What 162 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: would they get there? Stolen guns? And Roy Grabo apparently 163 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: knew and approved of Armando. He get her a run 164 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: down to the waterfront and carry boxes. They'd have boxes 165 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: coming off the ship or going on the ship, some 166 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: of the trunk and some of the back. There'll be 167 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: certain ones of them, you know, a certain guard on 168 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: the game. I have a picture of the guard, a 169 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,319 Speaker 1: good one. You can see that. Make sure that certain 170 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: guard was there, and they could drive right through. Producer 171 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: Jack Saltman, who was investigating Glenda's story, described the arrangement 172 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: this way. Well, this is Grever told me that she 173 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,719 Speaker 1: had actually as a driver for a morrow, and that 174 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: she had driven down to the dark Side in Eastern 175 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: and she did profriended us of the garden James and 176 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: only certain guards wrong duty. Did she then drive in 177 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 1: the bottom of the game of a certain busy David ship. 178 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: There were wooden boxes which she certainly be discovered contained 179 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: the several cousins. According to Glinda, the boxes of guns 180 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: would be brought to a rundown house in South Houston, 181 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: where they would be assembled. The house belonged to a 182 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,359 Speaker 1: man named Felix Torino. They take the over to Felix's 183 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: and I'd go sit in the living room or else 184 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: I'll go in the kitchen Felix. Felix was always cooking. 185 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: A bunch of them would sit around and put them together. 186 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 1: They would snap them this and that. This was around 187 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five, and it was during this time that 188 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: Glenda arrived at the house with Armando to find Dago, 189 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: who she had only seen now and then in the 190 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: intervening years. He was sitting there with the rest of 191 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: the crew and acting like he was in charge. A 192 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: bigger surprise was that Armando turned out to be Dago's uncle, 193 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: and Daego's real name was Raoul. Glenda's connection with the 194 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: group continued to be Armando. He told Glenda that he 195 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: and Raoul had come from Portugal, which explained the accent 196 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: that sounded Spanish. Then, while driving around with her one day, 197 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 1: Armando told Glenda that Raoul had been involved in the 198 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 1: killing of Martin Luther King. This is Bill Pepper talking 199 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: to Glenda in Was it Armando that first told you 200 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: that he was involved, that Raoul was involved in the 201 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: in the King case? A minded tell me that I 202 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: couldn't believe it, You know, hadly what did Armando actually 203 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: say to you? Do you recall the Fando tell me 204 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: in a business of daylis with ye together sure bits 205 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: and pieces that you were starting to put together with 206 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: leading you to believe what that he had involvement or 207 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: that he was the actual killer. He was. He admitted 208 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,719 Speaker 1: it later that he was killing. He was trying to 209 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:31,959 Speaker 1: keep it from me what it was. He got a 210 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: man the mind of visit any mind of tewl made. 211 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 1: Glenda kept her car keys on a ring that also 212 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: had a miniature viewfinder which displayed three portraits John Kennedy, 213 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: Bobby Kennedy, and Martin Luther King. One day, Armando and 214 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: Glenda arrived at to Reno's house and the usual suspects 215 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: were sitting around the table playing cards. This is Glenda's 216 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: and Roy's account of what happened next, as portrayed by 217 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 1: voice actors. Well, just me and Armando came in, and 218 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: I had the viewfinder with me, had the car keys 219 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: hooked into it, and threw him a purse and the 220 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 1: keys on the table, and one of them looked at it, 221 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 1: and he threw it over to him. Yeah, and then 222 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: he looked through it and jumped backwards and the chair 223 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: hit the floor and he started stomping on the ground. Uh, 224 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: just keep going they're gonna be okay. Tell him, oh, 225 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: I don't cuss or nothing. Well, don't worry about it, 226 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: just say s O P or whatever. He just said, 227 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: I killed that s O B once, Do I have 228 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: to do it again? I never understood him saying it 229 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: that way, but that's the way they talked. The boy 230 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: that he had a fight with was a karate expert 231 00:13:58,040 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: and they got in a fight inside a bar over 232 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: a topless dancer. My brother kind of had a girlfriend 233 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: that was a topless dancer. At shy In Social Club 234 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: in night, Roy Grabow's younger brother got into a scrape. 235 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: It involved alcohol, guns and a girl. They had a 236 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: fight inside and the boy knew karate and all that stuff. Well, 237 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: a friend of my brothers had a gun. He gave 238 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: my brother a gun and my brother ran him out. 239 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: They broke the fight up inside. The owner of the 240 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: club he broke it up and run that boy off. 241 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: That boy stayed outside. About an hour later, my brother 242 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: went out and he had something in his hand. They 243 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: didn't know if it was a gun or what, but 244 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: they said he had a gun. Anyway, this other boy 245 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: gave my brother back the gun and my brother shot 246 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: him dead and they got him for murder and they 247 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: gave him eighty years. Roy and Glenda both felt that 248 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: Royce brother had gotten a raw deal and they decided 249 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: to do what they could. This was still in seventy 250 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: eight and they were living in Houston and had heard 251 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: that when it came to fighting a murder charge, Percy Foreman, 252 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: who was also in Houston, was the best there was. 253 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: So they called Foreman and asked if he would handle 254 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: the appeal. Here is Roy and Glenda. I called Percy 255 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: Foreman and he said he would handle it for five 256 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: thousand dollars, and he wants that five thousand dollars right 257 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: there before I leave, a look at you. Roy and 258 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: Glenda didn't have five thousand dollars, so they put a 259 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: mortgage on their house, and when they gave him the money, 260 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: Percy Foreman did look at Roy and Glenda, but mostly 261 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: at Glenda. Had a subsequent meeting, Foreman started to pester her, 262 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: asking Glenda if she would like to work for him. 263 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: I went up there, but he got mad, sort of 264 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: because I wanted to paint houses, or he wanted me 265 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: to stay right there. He was going to move his 266 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: office or something. He wanted me to get past the 267 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: secretary and out of the office or something while they 268 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: made their move when I don't understand what he was 269 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: talking about them. By the time producer Jack Saltman got 270 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: down to Texas and was looking in the Glendas story, 271 00:15:55,720 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 1: Percy Foreman had died, but Michael Degaron, Foreman's partner the 272 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: law firm, was still there. So Saltman took a shot 273 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: and asked to Garon if he had any recollection at 274 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: all of Glenda Grebo. Turns out he did. As Jack 275 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: Saltman describes, Mrs Grebo had said that she had told 276 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: me as part of her statement that her husband Roy 277 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: his brother, was on a birdy charge and that she 278 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: had been termed with Percy Thornan was the topman in 279 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: the business that had gone along to see it. She 280 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: said that he had said he would charge her five 281 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: thousand dollars, but that she would give her three thousand 282 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: dollars back if she went to work for them. She said, 283 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: I paid houses. What is that going to be? What 284 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: us is that going to be? Fro an attorney, He said, 285 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: what I want you to be? Some fire um. I 286 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: gathered the fighting was of the more sexual nature, and 287 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: this was Acknoledge fires instead Garren and that that's really 288 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: what she was asked to do. She ever got the money. So, 289 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 1: according to Foreman's partner Michael Degaron, Glenda did work of 290 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: some kind for Foreman, but she never got the money 291 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 1: she was promised. As we have seen before, not honoring 292 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: his promises was Foreman's standard way of doing business. But 293 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: he did give Glenda one thing. Mrs Grebo gave me. 294 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: It was a Cartrooto bestI Foreman, and he had inscribed 295 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: to her in his own handwriting. Saltman called it a cartoon, 296 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: but what he meant to say was that it was 297 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: a reproduction of a somewhat flattering line drawing a Foreman 298 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: on which he had written to Glenda, best wishes, Percy Foreman, 299 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: You're invited to check it out on our website. Michael 300 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: Garrett Hardy confirmed that that was posie of handwriting, and 301 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: then he was exactly the sort of thing that he did. 302 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: So Glenda Grebo ended up spending time around Foreman's office, 303 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: mostly cleaning and doing make work filing jobs. Bill Pepper 304 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: would ask Glenda if Foreman ever mentioned ray or the 305 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,959 Speaker 1: King case, But we didn't even know it was his lawyer. 306 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: We had no idea. We'd seen things in his office, 307 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: you know, little things that were about Ray, and we 308 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: didn't pay much attention to it, and I didn't know 309 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: he was raised lawyer. But at some point when they 310 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: were alone, Foreman felt a need to tell Glenda what 311 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: an important man he was. He told her that he 312 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: was the lawyer and the king case, the lawyer for 313 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: the infamous James Earl Ray. Then he said something else, 314 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 1: something about that all white people is going to thank 315 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,880 Speaker 1: Ray someday for being sacrificed, for being the sacrifice for us. 316 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: Pepper then asked Glenda what Foreman said about Ray, something 317 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: about his brother sold him up the river, or something like, 318 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: I don't understand we're talking about, but I remember that part. 319 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: Until this point, Glenda is the Foreman a plaything of 320 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: no consequence because he doesn't know what she knows about 321 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: Raoul and what Raoul said he did and what his 322 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 1: uncle Morrow said he did. But then Glenda makes a mistake. 323 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 1: She thinks, because Foreman is a lawyer and already involved 324 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 1: in the case, an educated man up presumed the good 325 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: character that he is someone she can talk to. I figured, well, 326 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: I found somebody that knows something about this. I'm going 327 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 1: to tell him about it, you know. But I went 328 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 1: to the wrong person. I think. Glenda then told Percy 329 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: Foreman about how she knew Raoul and how she thought 330 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: he had been involved. I thought I was talking to somebody, 331 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 1: you know, somebody with authority, just talk about it. I 332 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: had no idea he was this liar. I didn't know 333 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: what was going on or nothing. I just just didn't 334 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: know where to turn. So Glinda tells Foreman about Raoul. 335 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: Foreman is surprised and deeply disturbed. Just a few months before, 336 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: he testified before the House Select Committee and been caught 337 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 1: in a number of outright lies about how he entered 338 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: the case and what he did and didn't do for Ray, 339 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: about hiring loss students to do investigative work and lying 340 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 1: under oath to a congressional committee could have cost him 341 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: his license, but since Foreman was on the Ray did 342 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: It Alone team, he got off with only a scolding, 343 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,360 Speaker 1: and nobody challenged him about his dubious story about Ray 344 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: telling him and only him that Raoul was a made 345 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,199 Speaker 1: up guy. But now suddenly Foreman had working in his 346 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 1: very office a woman who might blow his whole world apart, 347 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: and this is where the story gets really weird, because 348 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: Percy Foreman, former attorney for James ol Ray, appears to 349 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,719 Speaker 1: know the elusive Raoul. As Jack Saltman describes the situation 350 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 1: when she told Raoul cooking to his story, when she 351 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: told Raoul that she was working to Percy Foreman, he 352 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: apparently lost his temper and there was curious word between 353 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: him and pressing forward. Foreman then allegedly ranging up and 354 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: so your life is in danger. There are no witnesses 355 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 1: to this conversation, but apparently the two men exchanged heated 356 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: words on the phone. Raoul, we might guess, is furious 357 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: that Foreman has for his own pleasure taking Glenda on 358 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 1: as part time office help, and Foreman most likely is 359 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: angry that Raoul and his friends have told Glenda thinks 360 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: that she should not know. The danger for each man 361 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 1: is real and it can be measured in words, because 362 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: the next time Foreman sees Glenda, he tells her that 363 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 1: she must leave town or be killed because of what 364 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: she knows. Maybe by telling her this he was just 365 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 1: trying to save her life. More likely, he has his 366 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 1: own interests in mind. Perhaps he fears a violent encounter 367 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: between Roy and Raoul, or a botched murder attempt that 368 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,959 Speaker 1: drives Glenda to the police, better to just have her 369 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 1: leave if he can get her to go. You got 370 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 1: to get out of town or something. And then he said, 371 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 1: he talked to Raoul, but I don't know if he 372 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 1: came up there, talked to him on the phone or what. 373 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: He kind of sort of threatened me. He sort of 374 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: put it like, he gotta get out of town or 375 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 1: you ain't even gonna here. From what Glenda could understand, 376 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: Percy Foreman and Raoul seemed to know each other. Foreman 377 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: was a criminal defense attorney. He might have represented Raoul 378 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: or some of his cohorts when they got into trouble, 379 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: because defending criminals is what Foreman did for a living. 380 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: Knowing his way around and being on friendly speaking turns 381 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 1: with local hoodlums was good business. Did Foreman know of 382 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 1: Raoul before the King murder? That would be utterly outrageous, 383 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: but he may have. He certainly seemed to know him 384 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: or know of him after the murder. In any case, 385 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 1: Glenda and Roy took the thread at face value and 386 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: moved as fast as they could. But there was a 387 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: house to sell. So it didn't happen right away. One day, 388 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: Glenda was alone in her car. I just come back 389 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: from Cols and I hit the freeway. The wheel come off, 390 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: and the semi truck was right on my tail. I've 391 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: looked in my rearview mirror. I said, oh God, here 392 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: I go. I knew I was dead rat. Then it 393 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 1: just served out of the way, just in time. Pepper 394 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: then asked if they thought that someone had loosened the 395 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: lux and there was no doubt at all in Roy 396 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: Grabo's mind. It had to be. It had to be. 397 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: Roy and Glenda Grabo moved from Texas to Mississippi sometime 398 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: in nineteen nine, and they never heard from Percy Foreman again. 399 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: But then they saw something on TV. It was called 400 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: the Trial of James Earl. Ray King met with Glenda 401 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: and Loriy Bravo and listened to with Glenda and say, uh, 402 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 1: Paul hearing her safe when he got into wonder, I founded. 403 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,040 Speaker 1: I didn't necessarily believe. I thought this was to do 404 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: too incredible. We were back with John Billings, as he 405 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: describes meeting Glenda and Roy Graybow because we were going 406 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: to follow this story down another road. Billings fellow investigator 407 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: Ken Herman and TV producer Jack Saltman, all Harvard big 408 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 1: doubts about Glenda's story, but they decided to look into it. 409 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: But where is start? We didn't know quite you to 410 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: talk to. So what we did was, I have handsome 411 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: contacts in Miami, New York. I've met a number of 412 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: people who quiney influential what I'm saying in underworld or 413 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: call and I had called back, call them the real help. 414 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: And they contacted a a bind coming called Las Vegas 415 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 1: Bond Comty in Houston. It was ran a large black 416 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 1: female was about six ft two and captain machine gun 417 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 1: art as interesting. Herman and Saltman flew to Houston and 418 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,040 Speaker 1: paid a visit to the Las Vegas Bond comp and 419 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: the black woman with the machine gun. They told her 420 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: who they were looking for, but she said that she 421 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: had never heard of this guy, Raoul, but she offered 422 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 1: the names of two people who might have One was 423 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: a retired state judge and the other owned a string 424 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 1: of movie theaters. So Herman and Saltman found the judge 425 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 1: and sat down with him. He said he never met Raoul, 426 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 1: but he had heard of a guy by that name 427 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 1: who had a gun running operation on the Houston Docks. 428 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 1: Not a lot to go on, but it was something. 429 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 1: Then there was the theater guy. They found him and 430 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,640 Speaker 1: he said right away that he knew Glenda. Here's billings. 431 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: They asked him if he had any pictures a ring laugh, 432 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 1: he said, I've got lots of pictures of Blen. He said, 433 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 1: I keeping under my band, and he went produced some 434 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: young pictures, not sque to pictures from very young pictures 435 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: for a plum, very trashic girl and talked about he's 436 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 1: in canters. Whether ye know she didn't, yes. He verified 437 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: what she was saying about running in this group of 438 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: gun runners and serious people and using the theaters, and 439 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: then and again story ending up, but no one they 440 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: talked to new Raoul's last name Tomorrow. Raoul's uncle spent 441 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: much more time with Glenda and Roy, and no one 442 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: knew his last name either, But he had led on 443 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:18,959 Speaker 1: that he was a former seaman and he had some 444 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 1: sort of maritime card and occasionally received payments of some kind. 445 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: So Herman and Saltman paid a visit to the offices 446 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: of the Maritime Union. They presented an unusual first name 447 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: and wondered if someone will look through the files to 448 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 1: see if there was a person in the Union with 449 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: that name. Usually the answer would have been no, they 450 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 1: don't give out this kind of information. But Saltman said 451 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: that it was a matter of utmost importance. They were 452 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: making a movie. Jack kind of bossed them into wod 453 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,719 Speaker 1: out as BBC predictions and we're making a movie, and 454 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: they gave him the informations that we had. We had 455 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: the name with the real last name, and the help 456 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: of a Memphis police sergeant, the team came to possess 457 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 1: a copy of Raoul Quelo's naturalization record. It said that 458 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 1: Kuelo was born in July of nineteen thirty four and 459 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: that he had first come to the United States in 460 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one. He was naturalized in nineteen sixty seven. 461 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: Saltman was elated what we had also discovered that the 462 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: same Rowl that we had met, and we see his 463 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: naturalization papers. Among his papers of his application, we knew 464 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: that he had been working in alongment factory Importugal Invisibeth, Capital, Portugal, 465 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: prior to see in the American naturalization and I believe 466 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: there was an EMBI note on the papers that suggested 467 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: he was known that he had been seting assembled guns 468 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: out of Portugal at this time. But then the big prize, Well, 469 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: we obtend a photograph that I believe was one on 470 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 1: his naturalization papers, so that would have been uto um 471 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: having O taking the immigration photograph. What we then did 472 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: was we've got five of the similar type graphs. We 473 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: made a spread of six phetographs, which was a sort 474 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 1: of thing to recent situation. So once they had the 475 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: official photo of Raoul Kaelo, Saltman thought to construct a 476 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 1: six photo lineup or display using photos of men of 477 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: similar age, and to use that display to see who 478 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: else might recognize this man and what person more important 479 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,719 Speaker 1: to show it to than James Earl Ray. And as 480 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: John Buildings explains, he was visiting Ray quite often at 481 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: that time. We discussed shot and UH excided when he 482 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: had let see So we went to a r head 483 00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: in prison and never James and said tame on in 484 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,479 Speaker 1: granto James, and I told her he had a picture 485 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: photo and he seems so surprised, and I asked him 486 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: he would I attempt to pick out whole in his 487 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: photo spread. He said that he would, so we put 488 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: this before you know, James put on his glasses and 489 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: Benner two. She studied the picture very careful, and as 490 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: he studied and he looked down at him and he 491 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: just kind of dropped his finger down said that's bottle 492 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: And he said you possibly just He said, yes, I am. 493 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: And then Ray said something unexpected. He said, I've seen 494 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: this picture before, and I have seen this, so we 495 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: mean you've seen this picture before, you know, I think 496 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: Hoppy can see this because and he said that during 497 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: the Blue Quote House assassinations to me that someone had 498 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 1: mailed him in no return addressed picture and it was 499 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: this picture and it had a name on the backup 500 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: and he could remember the Lane. And I asked him, 501 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: We asked him he did anyone ever about this? He 502 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: said no, no one could have Benifiest, that can anybody else? 503 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: Or see said all my attorney, uh say Lee label 504 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: first and we also are working in his behalf and 505 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: seen it. After Billings reported what Ray had said, Saltman 506 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: set up a meeting with April Ferguson, who, along with 507 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: Mark Lane, had represented James ol Ray during the House 508 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: Committee hearings. He left the photo out on a table 509 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: with other material, but when Ferguson passed by she stopped 510 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: and picked it up. She picked the photo draft out 511 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: and said, I saw the photograph. I was absolutely a 512 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: fault because he was a direct actor to get the 513 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: photograph intress. Because it wasn't just anywhere, this was very specificity. 514 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: And I said what happened and she said, well, there 515 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: wasn't name grit of the back of the checked that 516 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: out and he turned out to be a placement to 517 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: the Phone group. And I said, when did you intersue 518 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: pedograph at all? She'd be cham pangra Hi. I think 519 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: the house investigators who were looking into the house as 520 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: susinations committee. The investigation was going on at that time, 521 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: and she said she was shown the pedograph him one 522 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: of the investigators. They haven't talk you to the office. 523 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: And I said did you pursue it? And she said 524 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: that top. We have no money in packing us at all. 525 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: Everybody offulys notices to pay and we just did not 526 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 1: have the money to hire five investigators to go checking. 527 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: So now, with all the information now discovered about Raoul Kawelo, 528 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: it was easy enough to trace the man or someone 529 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: using that identity to a home in Yonkers, New York. 530 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: But was the man living there with his wife and 531 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: daughter the same raoul who came over from Portugal in 532 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one. Was he the Dago that Glenda had known? 533 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: Was he the raoul that Percy Foreman seemed to know? 534 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: And most of all, was he the raoul who led 535 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: James ol Ray into Memphis. There were a few attempts 536 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: to answer these questions. One was simply to knock on 537 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: his door and talk to the man. This is Jack Saltman. 538 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: Some months later I went around to his house in 539 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: New York City, and not on the door. M the door, 540 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: if I can explain, was there was a gos iron 541 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: grill type door, and then there was a sort of 542 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:32,479 Speaker 1: mesh class doors mention oject. They can obviously see how 543 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 1: we liked to see the sort of dark interior of 544 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: the house with shapes that It was apparently the wife 545 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: who first came to the door, but she didn't open it. Instead, 546 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: she threw at Saltman what he was pretty sure were 547 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: curses in Portuguese. She was then replaced by someone he 548 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: assumed was the daughter. She's spoken perfect English and asked 549 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: him what he wanted and what he please go away. 550 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: Saltman said that he was an English journalist, and that 551 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: he had heard certain allegations made about her father and 552 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: he wanted to sit down with him and talk. She 553 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: replied her father was indisposed. Then I said, would you 554 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: help look at this photograph? In confirms to all worstless 555 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: effect that the photographs her father. And she said something 556 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: to the effect that anybody could get nationalization photograph, and 557 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: if I could get that, then I could get all 558 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: the other answers to what I was chasing anywhere and 559 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: not something to that change. She'd been no noble for 560 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 1: that she had positively identified. I didn't show the spread. 561 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: I showed an enloyement of that favor. Actually, you just 562 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: showed her single vote. Yes, there's no want to ask 563 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: for it because of father, because I never believe that 564 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: was her father. So Saltman left Raoul's house believing he 565 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 1: had gotten a positive idea from Raoul's daughter by way 566 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: of the photo he had shown her through the door. 567 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: Not exactly conclusive, but Saltman had another idea. He gave 568 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: Glenda Grabow Raoul's phone number and asked her to call him. 569 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: She did, and, according to phone records, she had a 570 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 1: conversation of several minutes with Raoul. According to Glenda, Raoul 571 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 1: seemed happy enough to hear from her, as though nothing 572 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 1: bad had ever happened between them. Roy Grabow was present 573 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 1: during this phone call, and he testified at the civil 574 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 1: trial that from what he heard, Glenda was speaking to 575 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: someone she knew and who knew her. But when Glenda 576 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: described the conversation to Bill Pepper, he wanted to know 577 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: one thing. How did Raoul on the telephone pronounce her name? 578 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 1: Glenda replied, Golenda, Olenda down down, Tolenda Linda rather than 579 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: Glendas name. As you may recall, oh Linda was how 580 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,800 Speaker 1: Dago pronounced Glenda's name in Houston. At this point, it 581 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: would appear that Pepper was well on his way to 582 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: establishing that the Yonkers Raoul was the Houston Raoul that 583 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: both Glenda and Percy Foreman new, and the Raoul who 584 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: Ray had identified by way of his photo, But how 585 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: to prove it, how to put it all on record? 586 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: At that time, Pepper was putting together the civil suit 587 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: on behalf of credit Scott King and her family, So 588 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: we decided to subpoena Raoul Kuolo to see if he 589 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 1: could get him to testify under oath. But Quelo declined 590 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 1: to appear, and he didn't have to because he lived 591 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 1: in New York and this was a civil matter in Tennessee. 592 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: The defenders of the Yonkers Raoul say the whole thing 593 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: was a case of mistaken identity, and according to his lawyers, 594 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 1: Raoul Kuelo had documents which said he was working at 595 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 1: a General Motors plant in Tarrytown, New York from nineteen 596 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: sixty two till nine two. In contrast, Glenda gray Bows 597 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: story seems moth eaten, filled with holes and sketchy people. 598 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 1: But however, sketchy Glenda's story does have a trail, and 599 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 1: by following the clues on that trail, Herman and Saltman 600 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 1: discover Raoul's last name, his naturalization papers, and then the 601 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 1: photo that came with those papers, a photo that Roy 602 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,799 Speaker 1: and Glenda say is of the Raoul that they knew, 603 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,360 Speaker 1: And according to John Billings, it's the same photo that 604 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,359 Speaker 1: James Earl Ray picked out and then said that both 605 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: he and his lawyer had seen it in and the 606 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: Kailo family and Yonkers, to my knowledge, has never denied 607 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: that the photo was genuine. So if the Yonkers Raoul 608 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 1: has nothing at all to do with any of this. 609 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,839 Speaker 1: If it really is a case of mistaken identity, how 610 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: is this photo floating around at the time of the 611 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: house hearings in So is the Yonkers raoul the same 612 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: person as the Houston raoul. Well, there's a good body 613 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: of evidence that says that he is. But whether he 614 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 1: is or not, there is something more important here, something 615 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: that goes to the very heart of this case. It's 616 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 1: the assertion that Percy Foreman knew the Houston raoul and 617 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: that he told Glenda Grebo that James Earl Ray was 618 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 1: just a guy who had to be sacrificed. And more 619 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,839 Speaker 1: than that, Foreman told her that if she didn't want 620 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: to be sacrificed herself, she needed to leave town because 621 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: this raoul had been in on the murder of Martin 622 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 1: Luther King and he was dangerous. And Foreman knew all 623 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 1: this because he knew the guy. With Percy Foreman, the 624 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: hits keep coming. Why did he force himself into this case? 625 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,320 Speaker 1: Who was he really working for? And those questions do 626 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: have answers. Stay with us and find out what really 627 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 1: went down when Martin Luther King was murdered. Next time 628 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: on the MLK tapes, it really kind of opened my 629 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: eyes that there was more of a conspiracy than I 630 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:53,359 Speaker 1: thought there was. Paul reached inside his jacket and pulled 631 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,959 Speaker 1: out what looked like a wallet. He flipped it open, 632 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,799 Speaker 1: and all I could see where the letters FBI. Paul 633 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: smiled at me and said, don't worry. I'm your friend, 634 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,239 Speaker 1: not your enemy. He said. Everybody had to make a 635 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 1: little money, even cops. I knew we had worked with 636 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: local cops before, but I had never known of the 637 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,319 Speaker 1: FEDS being crooked. I got the feeling that there were 638 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: some investigators who were involved in either the timing, the surveillance, 639 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 1: maybe the planning we're talking about, I'm surfacing at the 640 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,359 Speaker 1: time when the trial was about to take place. They 641 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 1: didn't want that civil trial. I have a client who 642 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: had imparted some information to be that, quite frankly, could 643 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 1: prove that James were already did not shoot. Dr King. 644 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,360 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to The MLK Tapes, a production of 645 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and tended with TV. This podcast is 646 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: not specifically endorsed by the King Family or the King 647 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 1: of State. The email K Tapes is written and hosted 648 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 1: by Bill Claiper, Matt Frederick, and Alex Williams are executive 649 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: producers on behalf of I Heart Radio with producers Trevor 650 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: Young and ben Keebrick. Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay are 651 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,880 Speaker 1: executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot TV with producers Jamie 652 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: Albright and Meredith Steadman. Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. 653 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: Cover art by Mr Soul to six with photography by 654 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: Artemis Jenkins. Special thanks to Owen Rosenbaum and Grace Rowyer 655 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 1: at U t A, The Nord Group, back Median Marketing, 656 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 1: Envisioned Business Management, and Station sixteen. If you have questions, 657 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,399 Speaker 1: you can visit our website, the email k tapes dot com. 658 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 1: We posted photos and videos related to the podcast on 659 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 1: our social media accounts. You can check them out at 660 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 1: the email k Tapes. For more podcasts from I Heart 661 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,840 Speaker 1: Radio and Tenderfoot TV, please visit the I Heart Radio app, 662 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,800 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,