WEBVTT - Stacey Abrams, Architect of Social Justice (Rebroadcast) 0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:25.196 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:25.236 --> 0:00:28.836 where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:28.876 --> 0:00:32.556 I'm Noah Feldman. A lot of news has happened since 0:00:32.596 --> 0:00:36.476 I was last in your feed. On January sixth, a mob, 0:00:36.716 --> 0:00:41.036 encouraged by Donald Trump some would say incited, stormed the 0:00:41.116 --> 0:00:46.556 Capitol Much later that night, Congress finally certified Joe Biden's 0:00:46.596 --> 0:00:51.996 presidential victory. Democrats almost immediately began work on impeaching the 0:00:52.076 --> 0:00:57.796 president for a second time. All this has almost overshadowed 0:00:58.276 --> 0:01:03.476 huge news out of Georgia. On January fifth, the day 0:01:03.516 --> 0:01:09.116 before the instance on Capitol Hill, two Democrats flipped Senate seat, 0:01:09.796 --> 0:01:14.156 giving the Democratic Party control over the upper chamber of 0:01:14.476 --> 0:01:18.796 Congress fifty fifty, with a tiebreaker going to Vice President 0:01:18.876 --> 0:01:24.276 Kamala Harris. On that historic day, a lot of people 0:01:24.636 --> 0:01:30.236 were talking about one woman, Stacy Abrams. Stacy is a 0:01:30.276 --> 0:01:34.476 politician and activist whose organizing efforts in Georgia played a 0:01:34.596 --> 0:01:38.116 key role, first in helping Joe Biden win the state 0:01:38.316 --> 0:01:43.196 and then in delivering the two Senate flips. Now, Stacy 0:01:43.236 --> 0:01:46.956 Abrams is a household name. In fact, I think she 0:01:47.076 --> 0:01:51.596 is now the most important activist strategist in US politics 0:01:51.636 --> 0:01:54.556 since Karl Rove, and she may turn out to be 0:01:54.756 --> 0:01:59.156 much more important than Rove in the long term. Stacy 0:01:59.236 --> 0:02:03.116 has been working steadily for years on turning Georgia blue 0:02:03.316 --> 0:02:07.516 through creating and leading organizations like the New Georgia Project 0:02:07.716 --> 0:02:11.996 aimed at registering in new voters and Fair Fight aimed 0:02:12.076 --> 0:02:16.836 at fighting voter suppression. Her reproach is going to become 0:02:17.156 --> 0:02:22.156 a new paradigm for Democrats all over the country. They're 0:02:22.196 --> 0:02:25.996 going to focus on registering new voters, on resisting voter suppression, 0:02:26.156 --> 0:02:30.636 and on getting out the vote, particularly for voters of color, who, 0:02:30.756 --> 0:02:34.316 for various complicated reasons, have not always turned out in 0:02:34.436 --> 0:02:38.396 past elections. I spoke to Stacy about a year ago 0:02:38.716 --> 0:02:41.716 when the presidential race was just heating up, and I'm 0:02:41.716 --> 0:02:45.516 excited to re share that conversation with you today. It 0:02:45.556 --> 0:02:51.396 feels like the right time for it. Some background on 0:02:51.476 --> 0:02:54.836 Stacy Abrahams. In twenty eighteen, she ran for governor of 0:02:54.836 --> 0:02:59.396 Georgia and very narrowly lost to Brian Kemp, a Republican 0:02:59.556 --> 0:03:01.716 who was Secretary of State of Georgia at the time, 0:03:02.196 --> 0:03:05.236 meaning he was the one in charge of overseeing the 0:03:05.236 --> 0:03:10.156 election Stacy never conceded the race because she said that 0:03:10.276 --> 0:03:14.796 Kemp had suppressed votes. That experience helped spur her work 0:03:15.036 --> 0:03:19.316 on voting rights and getting every vote counted. I reached 0:03:19.316 --> 0:03:25.836 her last October by phone. Hi, this is Stacey Abrams. Hi, Stacey, 0:03:25.836 --> 0:03:27.876 it's no Effeldman. How are you? I am well? How 0:03:27.916 --> 0:03:30.876 are you? I'm great? Thank you so much for joining us. 0:03:30.876 --> 0:03:32.716 If it's okay with you, we'll just dive right in. 0:03:33.396 --> 0:03:35.916 Sounds good. So I want to begin by asking you 0:03:35.996 --> 0:03:40.236 about two organizations that you've founded, Fair Fight, which is 0:03:40.276 --> 0:03:43.836 devoted to fighting voter suppression, and fair count, which is 0:03:43.836 --> 0:03:47.076 devoted to making sure the census is fair. The fairness 0:03:47.156 --> 0:03:49.956 theme emerge is very powerfully here, and I just want 0:03:49.956 --> 0:03:52.716 to begin by asking you, given your long career in 0:03:53.036 --> 0:03:56.236 public service and as a lawyer, as an entrepreneur, what 0:03:56.436 --> 0:04:00.636 makes you think that fairness is achievable. I'd like to 0:04:00.676 --> 0:04:02.676 begin by a thinking about the fact I grew up 0:04:02.716 --> 0:04:05.596 in the Deep South. I am the daughter of two 0:04:05.796 --> 0:04:09.596 people who are civil rights activist as teenagers, and my 0:04:09.676 --> 0:04:13.836 grandparents and all of those who preceded me either live 0:04:13.916 --> 0:04:17.476 through Jim Crow or the Black Codes, or slavery and 0:04:17.556 --> 0:04:21.676 so I think of fairness as a continuum. Our responsibility 0:04:21.756 --> 0:04:25.996 is to constantly move towards the promise of equality. And 0:04:26.076 --> 0:04:29.596 in each generation of my family's life, progress has been made. 0:04:29.956 --> 0:04:33.276 It has been slow and plotting and painful and violent, 0:04:33.676 --> 0:04:37.716 but it has been achievable. And so my responsibility is 0:04:37.756 --> 0:04:42.676 not simply to see the difficulties that we face, but 0:04:42.836 --> 0:04:47.316 to remember that in each generation, and opportunity to fight 0:04:47.356 --> 0:04:51.796 back against these difficulties has been a critical responsibility. And 0:04:52.036 --> 0:04:54.476 the ultimate goal is not that we will have every 0:04:54.516 --> 0:04:57.516 scene we desire. The goal is that we will have fairness, 0:04:57.636 --> 0:05:00.956 and that is my core belief. That's a moving and 0:05:00.996 --> 0:05:03.996 it's actually even an inspiring answer. You're a lawyer, and 0:05:04.036 --> 0:05:05.676 I don't say that as a bad word. I'm a 0:05:05.756 --> 0:05:07.676 lawyer too. You know, I went to this same law 0:05:07.716 --> 0:05:10.316 school and that you did. People may hold that against us, 0:05:10.316 --> 0:05:12.716 but I don't. But I want to ask about the 0:05:12.716 --> 0:05:18.556 balance between law and more direct social activism because I 0:05:18.676 --> 0:05:20.836 sometimes worry, I mean, I even teach law students for 0:05:20.876 --> 0:05:23.036 a living, and I sometimes worry that I fall too 0:05:23.036 --> 0:05:25.516 far into the category of telling them, Look, this social 0:05:25.556 --> 0:05:28.876 movement generated legal change, and so that's how you know 0:05:28.996 --> 0:05:31.676 that it's a successful social movement in real time, and 0:05:31.716 --> 0:05:33.036 then they sort of look at me, at least when 0:05:33.076 --> 0:05:35.036 they start law school a little skeptically and say, isn't 0:05:35.036 --> 0:05:37.156 it the other way around? I mean, shouldn't the measure 0:05:37.156 --> 0:05:41.276 of a law be whether it produced social change rather 0:05:41.356 --> 0:05:43.236 than the measure of a social movement being whether it 0:05:43.356 --> 0:05:46.836 generated some some legal outcomes. And I'm wondering how you 0:05:46.876 --> 0:05:49.636 see the balance. Obviously we need both, but when you 0:05:49.676 --> 0:05:51.596 think about which comes first, or which needs to be 0:05:51.636 --> 0:05:54.036 more powerful, or where the emphasis should be, where do 0:05:54.076 --> 0:05:58.276 you come down. I think they're inherently intertwined. And I 0:05:58.276 --> 0:06:01.756 think your students are asking smart questions. But I wouldn't 0:06:01.756 --> 0:06:05.756 say unfair. But it's a more complicated question if you 0:06:05.796 --> 0:06:09.876 look at my election, For example, my decision on November 0:06:09.876 --> 0:06:15.716 sixteenth to acknowledge the legal sufficiency of the outcome, recognize 0:06:15.716 --> 0:06:18.196 that there are laws in place that have created the 0:06:18.276 --> 0:06:22.716 very process that was used to thwart voters, that those 0:06:22.796 --> 0:06:27.956 laws have been deemed appropriate by lawmakers. But my refusal 0:06:28.076 --> 0:06:31.716 to concede the election was that I take exception to 0:06:31.796 --> 0:06:36.436 the actual laws themselves, that the very presence of those 0:06:36.516 --> 0:06:40.676 rules that permitted that behavior raises the need to question 0:06:40.836 --> 0:06:44.956 and in our case overturn those laws and reconstruct those laws. 0:06:45.836 --> 0:06:50.436 Social movements give voice and power and face to what 0:06:50.676 --> 0:06:54.916 needs to change. The law gives structure and to the 0:06:54.956 --> 0:06:58.796 extent possible permanence to the existence of that change. And 0:06:58.956 --> 0:07:02.356 for me, I've never seen I understand there's a tension, 0:07:02.396 --> 0:07:05.516 but I've never seen a dichotomy or an order of 0:07:05.596 --> 0:07:09.956 priority to my participation. My response facility is to be 0:07:10.036 --> 0:07:13.756 engaged in the social action that we are pursuing through 0:07:13.796 --> 0:07:16.756 fair fight and fair count. But I am also someone 0:07:16.796 --> 0:07:18.516 who believes that I need to be part of the 0:07:18.596 --> 0:07:23.236 lawmaking process because social movements without a voice in the 0:07:23.316 --> 0:07:28.036 law do not have the longstanding and deep, deeply needed 0:07:28.036 --> 0:07:31.556 of sex if there isn't something implicated into law that 0:07:31.916 --> 0:07:36.276 makes it harder to undo or to thwart the intention. 0:07:36.996 --> 0:07:39.796 I'm really glad you brought up your non concession after 0:07:39.836 --> 0:07:43.956 the twenty eighteen Georgia governor's race, and I want to 0:07:44.076 --> 0:07:46.116 use that as you just raised it to try to 0:07:46.436 --> 0:07:48.716 ask you about a sort of a skeptical question that 0:07:48.836 --> 0:07:51.636 someone from the outside might ask, and they might say, 0:07:52.316 --> 0:07:55.756 you know, it comes down to can the system be 0:07:55.836 --> 0:07:59.436 trusted to change enough to make a difference. So as 0:07:59.476 --> 0:08:02.156 you say, you recognize the legal sufficiency of the outcome 0:08:02.196 --> 0:08:04.116 in the sense that you didn't walk into the governor's 0:08:04.276 --> 0:08:07.276 office and say I'm the governor and ask the Georgia 0:08:07.356 --> 0:08:09.916 State Police to put you in office. But you didn't 0:08:09.916 --> 0:08:12.116 conceive because you didn't want to say I lost in 0:08:12.156 --> 0:08:14.316 a fair fight, because it wasn't a fair fight. And 0:08:14.356 --> 0:08:16.156 so in that sense, you didn't want to say the 0:08:16.476 --> 0:08:20.316 words I lost because you didn't lose in some fairness sense. 0:08:21.076 --> 0:08:24.956 And I guess what I'm wondering is, couldn't someone say, look, 0:08:25.156 --> 0:08:27.516 that suggests the system is just rigged in a way 0:08:27.516 --> 0:08:31.116 where it's not going to change, and if that's the case, 0:08:31.476 --> 0:08:33.716 we need to go outside the system and engage in 0:08:33.716 --> 0:08:37.676 civil disobedience or other more radical forms of efforts to 0:08:37.996 --> 0:08:41.236 not just tweak the system through laws and improvements and 0:08:42.196 --> 0:08:46.236 social activism, but something more fundamental. I would say they're 0:08:46.236 --> 0:08:51.476 absolutely right, But for me, I have always internalized that 0:08:51.516 --> 0:08:54.036 it cannot be one or the other, that it must 0:08:54.116 --> 0:08:59.476 always be this collaboration of challenging the laws as they stand, 0:08:59.636 --> 0:09:03.396 creating better laws and fighting bad laws, and also engaging 0:09:03.836 --> 0:09:07.036 people to press the system for the change that needs 0:09:07.036 --> 0:09:09.916 to happen. Let me ask you about your own personal 0:09:09.996 --> 0:09:11.916 version of this fight. I mean, you wrote a fantastic 0:09:11.956 --> 0:09:15.836 autobiography which huge numbers of people all over read. You 0:09:16.236 --> 0:09:19.396 did a very public response to the state of the Union, 0:09:19.756 --> 0:09:23.036 which is ordinarily something that a senior legislative figure would 0:09:23.036 --> 0:09:24.996 have done at the national level. If the New York 0:09:25.036 --> 0:09:27.036 Times quoted you correctly, they said you were open to 0:09:27.076 --> 0:09:29.796 serving as vice president if asked for any Democratic nominee. 0:09:30.356 --> 0:09:34.756 These are big national within the system undertakings. What do 0:09:34.796 --> 0:09:36.676 you think is the probability that that's where you're going 0:09:36.756 --> 0:09:38.916 to end up going in the next phase of your 0:09:39.116 --> 0:09:44.036 pretty extraordinary story. Thank you again. I do not see 0:09:44.076 --> 0:09:48.756 these as conflicting spaces to operate in. I've always seen 0:09:48.796 --> 0:09:52.116 them as collaborative. When I was a state legislator, when 0:09:52.116 --> 0:09:55.076 I became Democratic leader in the House minority leader of 0:09:55.116 --> 0:09:58.196 our party, one of the challenges we faced was that 0:09:58.596 --> 0:10:01.916 we had eight hundred thousand people of color who were 0:10:01.996 --> 0:10:05.116 not registered to vote in Georgia who were eligible. Those 0:10:05.236 --> 0:10:07.876 who have been in the legislature long before I got 0:10:07.916 --> 0:10:11.036 there had been bemo owning these massive numbers three years. 0:10:11.636 --> 0:10:14.756 My approach was to start the New Georgia Project. So, 0:10:14.836 --> 0:10:18.436 while as sitting legislator and while the leader of my caucus, 0:10:18.556 --> 0:10:22.276 I was also an outside agitator who started an organization 0:10:22.356 --> 0:10:24.516 that it's registered more than four hundred thousand people of 0:10:24.556 --> 0:10:28.396 color in the state of George. As Democratic leader, I 0:10:28.476 --> 0:10:31.356 did not see a conflict between those two responsibilities. There 0:10:31.356 --> 0:10:34.236 were legal issues that I had to be very cognizantve 0:10:34.356 --> 0:10:38.236 and ways that had to manage my responsibilities, but I 0:10:38.316 --> 0:10:43.476 do not see being in elected office as a deterrent 0:10:43.676 --> 0:10:46.876 to being part of a public space. Well it shouldn't 0:10:46.876 --> 0:10:48.956 be a deterrent, but as a pragmatic matter, just to 0:10:48.996 --> 0:10:50.916 be we don't have to be super realistic, but we 0:10:50.956 --> 0:10:53.636 can be mildly realistic. You know, if you listen to 0:10:53.716 --> 0:10:57.116 all the Democratic presidential candidates now, even those who self 0:10:57.116 --> 0:11:01.596 conceive as critics of the existing system, their criticism, though 0:11:01.636 --> 0:11:05.716 in many cases sharp, still comes with a strong aspiration 0:11:05.796 --> 0:11:07.916 to be at the center of power, you know, to 0:11:07.996 --> 0:11:12.916 be sitting in the White House and leading crucial national decisions. 0:11:12.916 --> 0:11:14.996 It's I think it's just the nature running for president. 0:11:15.036 --> 0:11:17.716 You end up talking like you're in the system, that 0:11:17.756 --> 0:11:19.716 you're committed to the system, and then although you want 0:11:19.716 --> 0:11:22.156 to change it, the system basically doesn't need to be 0:11:22.196 --> 0:11:26.516 fundamentally you're structured. I think that that is not inaccurate, 0:11:26.556 --> 0:11:31.036 but I think it ignores, or can ignore, the multiple 0:11:31.076 --> 0:11:33.436 ways you can affect the system before you have that job. 0:11:33.996 --> 0:11:37.636 And so my approach has been this, I attempt to 0:11:37.756 --> 0:11:41.836 leverage whichever you know, sort of the commentary about Atlas. 0:11:41.916 --> 0:11:43.516 You give me a place to stand, and I'm going 0:11:43.556 --> 0:11:45.356 to try my best to shift the world a little bit, 0:11:45.596 --> 0:11:48.636 a terrible reduction of it, but that's how I operate. 0:11:48.956 --> 0:11:52.996 And so for me, the issue has always been you 0:11:53.036 --> 0:11:55.796 have to create external pathways to making change, because systems 0:11:55.796 --> 0:11:59.196 are not going to change themselves without external pressure, and 0:11:59.236 --> 0:12:02.556 so I attempt to create those external pressures. The New 0:12:02.556 --> 0:12:05.316 Georgia Project did so by rich Strain thousands of voters 0:12:05.316 --> 0:12:08.676 who had a very dramatic impact on the outcome of elections. 0:12:09.356 --> 0:12:12.356 Fair Fight and Fair Account will do so by affecting 0:12:12.516 --> 0:12:17.116 voter protection agencies and attempts to make certain that votes 0:12:17.156 --> 0:12:20.636 cannot be stolen afforded. And in each of those instances, 0:12:20.636 --> 0:12:23.556 I've set up organizations where I'm not in charge. I 0:12:23.596 --> 0:12:26.116 am the chair of the board, I am the chief fundraiser. 0:12:26.156 --> 0:12:29.796 I participate in strategy, but I'm not the person who 0:12:29.836 --> 0:12:33.036 does the daily work because I am inside the system 0:12:33.076 --> 0:12:36.716 and there is a conflict that happens. It's very difficult 0:12:36.756 --> 0:12:40.196 to dismantle a system that you are deeply embedded in, 0:12:40.556 --> 0:12:43.396 and so part of my responsibility is to use my 0:12:43.476 --> 0:12:47.156 inside knowledge to create outside forces and then to populate 0:12:47.236 --> 0:12:50.316 those forces so that if I move back inside, they 0:12:50.356 --> 0:12:53.596 can still operate without me. The New Georgia Project is 0:12:53.756 --> 0:12:56.756 entirely independent now. Fair fight and fair account. Should I 0:12:56.756 --> 0:13:00.076 stand for another public office, will also quickly erase me 0:13:00.116 --> 0:13:03.476 from their boards. And that's my job. My job is 0:13:03.516 --> 0:13:07.436 to be aware enough to know that when you are 0:13:07.476 --> 0:13:11.476 inside the system, it is disingenuous to say that you're 0:13:11.516 --> 0:13:15.036 going to wholly deconstruct it. But it is also an 0:13:15.036 --> 0:13:18.156 opportunity to use what you learn from inside the system 0:13:18.596 --> 0:13:22.076 to arm the populace to challenge and improve a system 0:13:22.116 --> 0:13:25.236 from the outside. It's a little daunting to imagine the 0:13:25.356 --> 0:13:28.356 huge number of different jobs that you actually have created 0:13:28.396 --> 0:13:32.276 for yourself. We haven't even gotten to author of romance novels, 0:13:32.276 --> 0:13:33.916 which I promised will come to before the end of 0:13:33.916 --> 0:13:36.796 our conversation. But when you wake up in the morning, 0:13:37.436 --> 0:13:39.036 how do you know what you're literally I mean, I 0:13:39.036 --> 0:13:40.836 mean it's the most prosaic level, like how do you 0:13:40.836 --> 0:13:42.676 know what you're going to do next? Do you look 0:13:42.676 --> 0:13:45.196 at your calendar? Do you how do you know which 0:13:45.236 --> 0:13:47.516 of these many responsibilities is the one that you should 0:13:47.556 --> 0:13:53.876 start working on that morning? It's order of urgency. Typically, again, 0:13:53.996 --> 0:13:56.356 I do my best to make certain that there are 0:13:56.596 --> 0:13:59.796 teams of people who can help me determine where my 0:13:59.916 --> 0:14:02.676 best value add is. And so my wife is basically 0:14:02.716 --> 0:14:05.356 at the mercy of a bunch of millennials and a 0:14:05.436 --> 0:14:08.236 huge en xers who organize my day. So just to 0:14:08.236 --> 0:14:11.116 get a picture of this, you're kind of the chairman 0:14:11.116 --> 0:14:16.316 and CEO of Stacy Abram's Social Justice, Inc. And you 0:14:16.316 --> 0:14:18.076 you know you've got it's a conglomerate with lots of 0:14:18.076 --> 0:14:21.916 little subparts. And in there are your your millennials, in 0:14:21.956 --> 0:14:25.276 your handful of gen xers, and they're they're each running 0:14:25.316 --> 0:14:28.316 their own effectively startups which you started. In each case 0:14:28.396 --> 0:14:32.156 it's your socialist or political seed capital, and you're weighing 0:14:32.156 --> 0:14:34.396 in to try to make sure they're all keeping it 0:14:34.476 --> 0:14:36.236 in order or something like that. Is that am I 0:14:36.276 --> 0:14:38.996 getting the picture. That's exactly it. And I think it's 0:14:38.996 --> 0:14:43.476 important because often in social justice movements, culti personality tends 0:14:43.516 --> 0:14:47.756 to organize around the founder, and the founder serves not 0:14:47.876 --> 0:14:53.436 only as the creator but also the full crom around 0:14:53.436 --> 0:14:57.196 which everything circulates, and that, to me is a dangerous position. 0:14:57.716 --> 0:15:00.396 I am in politics, I am also incredibly human and 0:15:00.476 --> 0:15:04.716 thus flawed. And anytime a social movement has to adopt 0:15:05.156 --> 0:15:10.076 or rely on the personality or the foibles of their founder, 0:15:10.676 --> 0:15:12.916 you're setting yourself up for trouble. So part of my 0:15:12.996 --> 0:15:16.516 responsibility is to work as assiduously as possible to make 0:15:16.516 --> 0:15:19.916 myself irrelevant to the long term success of the organization. 0:15:20.116 --> 0:15:21.836 Can I just say, I mean, you want to run 0:15:21.836 --> 0:15:24.476 for national office, you want to be have your maximal impact. 0:15:24.556 --> 0:15:27.116 Cultive personality is what it's all about. I mean, what 0:15:27.676 --> 0:15:30.556 I'm wondering is when you go out there, as you're 0:15:30.596 --> 0:15:33.756 doing now, building your I don't want to call it 0:15:33.756 --> 0:15:35.436 a brand, because I had to test that terminology for 0:15:35.476 --> 0:15:40.476 public servants, but building the message connected to you and 0:15:40.716 --> 0:15:42.396 the things that you want to be known for and 0:15:42.476 --> 0:15:45.956 known for doing. What's your brief description of how you 0:15:45.996 --> 0:15:48.036 want to be seen by the broader world? Not by 0:15:48.036 --> 0:15:50.036 your constituents in Georgia who know you well, but by 0:15:50.036 --> 0:15:55.556 the country. I am an architect of social justice, and 0:15:55.836 --> 0:15:59.036 that means standing in the spaces where I can be 0:15:59.076 --> 0:16:01.516 most effective and doing the work that is most needed, 0:16:01.756 --> 0:16:03.436 where I'm the right person to do the work and 0:16:03.476 --> 0:16:05.036 it's the right time for that work to be done. 0:16:05.436 --> 0:16:08.476 So architect of social justice. And is that, you know, 0:16:08.676 --> 0:16:12.196 not apical consultant. But is that a teeny bit abstract 0:16:12.796 --> 0:16:17.316 for a factory worker who's lost his job or a 0:16:17.396 --> 0:16:20.876 mother who's working several jobs and trying to go to 0:16:21.236 --> 0:16:23.556 night school at the same time. Is architect of social 0:16:23.556 --> 0:16:27.236 justice concrete enough? The way you have a conversation with 0:16:27.676 --> 0:16:31.676 a potential constituent begins with meeting them where they are. 0:16:31.916 --> 0:16:34.596 And so I wouldn't start by saying who I am. 0:16:34.636 --> 0:16:37.956 I would start by asking what they need and talk 0:16:38.036 --> 0:16:41.156 then about how my skills, how my architecture skills, how 0:16:41.196 --> 0:16:46.076 my management skills help me deliver that. But to your point, 0:16:46.156 --> 0:16:49.116 one of the most difficult parts of running for office 0:16:49.636 --> 0:16:52.756 is trying to come up with something reductive enough to 0:16:52.916 --> 0:16:56.716 be a sound bite, but meaningful enough to actually convey 0:16:57.436 --> 0:17:02.036 your intention. And that's really hard. I don't try. I 0:17:02.196 --> 0:17:04.876 was slightly a conoclastic in my campaign in part because 0:17:05.276 --> 0:17:08.516 I do not look like or operate in the way 0:17:08.516 --> 0:17:12.876 that most traditional politicians do, and that of itself became 0:17:13.196 --> 0:17:16.636 my brand, which is that I'm much more like you 0:17:16.836 --> 0:17:19.956 than like them. You do things differently. Yeah, I did, 0:17:20.236 --> 0:17:22.556 but I also have experienced many of these things. I 0:17:22.596 --> 0:17:24.516 can talk about criminal justice reform because I have a 0:17:24.556 --> 0:17:27.156 younger brother who is in and out of jail. I 0:17:27.156 --> 0:17:29.596 can talk about mental health issues because one of the 0:17:29.596 --> 0:17:31.596 reasons he finds himself in and out of jail is 0:17:31.636 --> 0:17:34.916 that he had an undiagnosed mental health disorder and he 0:17:34.996 --> 0:17:38.116 cannot receive healthcare for it because of his ex offender 0:17:38.156 --> 0:17:41.276 status and because of the challenges with Southern healthcare delivery. 0:17:41.516 --> 0:17:43.836 I can talk about debt because I've been in it 0:17:44.236 --> 0:17:47.556 and I know what it means. And so part of 0:17:47.596 --> 0:17:51.716 my part of what I think resonates is that I 0:17:51.796 --> 0:17:56.716 don't attempt to create this reductive line that makes me 0:17:56.916 --> 0:17:59.716 palatable and acceptable to all people, because the minute you've 0:17:59.756 --> 0:18:02.476 done that, it is so benign that has no meaning 0:18:02.516 --> 0:18:03.996 at all. So I think what I hear you saying 0:18:03.996 --> 0:18:05.836 is that it helps to be a real person, and 0:18:06.076 --> 0:18:08.676 you're not ashamed of actually being a real person, not 0:18:08.756 --> 0:18:12.796 at all my whole life. Yeah, and you've been able 0:18:12.836 --> 0:18:15.156 to speak directly and honestly to people about that, and 0:18:15.156 --> 0:18:17.276 that is really that has really resonated. And I do 0:18:17.316 --> 0:18:20.116 think that's hugely important because the approach you described, where 0:18:20.156 --> 0:18:23.116 you start by meeting the voter, that can work incredibly 0:18:23.116 --> 0:18:25.876 well at a smaller scale when you can actually meet 0:18:25.916 --> 0:18:29.116 the voters, but when the scale becomes national, that just 0:18:29.156 --> 0:18:31.756 becomes extraordinarily difficult. And I think here of someone who's 0:18:31.796 --> 0:18:34.236 you know, our rough contemporary, a friend of mine and 0:18:34.236 --> 0:18:36.836 probably a friend of yours too, Corey Booker, who's an 0:18:36.836 --> 0:18:40.756 extremely successful politician at the one on one or one 0:18:40.796 --> 0:18:43.036 on small group level. You know, when one meets Corey, 0:18:43.036 --> 0:18:45.476 one is blown away by his enthusiasm and his charisma 0:18:45.476 --> 0:18:48.796 and his capacity to connect. And on the national scale, 0:18:48.876 --> 0:18:52.116 he's had a hard time translating that. I think, really, 0:18:52.156 --> 0:18:55.396 you know, one in a million kind of personality into 0:18:55.916 --> 0:18:58.276 something that resonates on the broader level. And it's not 0:18:58.276 --> 0:19:01.036 for any lack of sincerity. It's just that the medium 0:19:01.116 --> 0:19:04.036 of trying to reach people all over the country via 0:19:04.036 --> 0:19:07.116 a television set or a social media account is just 0:19:07.276 --> 0:19:10.756 really different than being a human being looking somebody in 0:19:10.756 --> 0:19:13.396 the eyes and interacting with them. I would say that 0:19:13.996 --> 0:19:17.636 this is a very specific moment in our political history, 0:19:17.956 --> 0:19:21.836 and we're this a normative election where we were simply 0:19:22.316 --> 0:19:25.356 arguing about the margins and the shift from one leader 0:19:25.716 --> 0:19:28.756 on the margins to the next. I would say that 0:19:29.156 --> 0:19:33.356 Corey would his resonance would be much sharper because we 0:19:33.436 --> 0:19:39.396 are in this moment of panic and existential fear. I 0:19:39.436 --> 0:19:42.676 think there's a retrenchment that is happening that doesn't allow 0:19:42.796 --> 0:19:49.076 for newness and for his brand of personal engagement in 0:19:49.196 --> 0:19:51.796 this moment. I do not think it's just positive of 0:19:51.876 --> 0:19:54.876 his long term capacity to demonstrate him. So I think 0:19:54.876 --> 0:19:57.036 it's less than medium than that moment. That's quite interesting. 0:19:57.036 --> 0:20:01.916 It is. Yeah, if you watch how people react, how 0:20:01.956 --> 0:20:03.636 they say they want to react, and how they are 0:20:03.636 --> 0:20:06.916 telling posters they will react, which are often very different 0:20:07.036 --> 0:20:09.956 in this moment, It's what I kept hearing, Oh, I 0:20:10.076 --> 0:20:12.196 like you a lot. I think you're wonderful, but I'm 0:20:12.236 --> 0:20:13.636 not sure you can be the one to do it. 0:20:13.916 --> 0:20:16.396 And so there's a lot of i'm not sure happening. 0:20:16.796 --> 0:20:20.956 And when that is the case, people tend to return 0:20:21.116 --> 0:20:23.956 to what is the most familiar and most comfortable, and 0:20:24.036 --> 0:20:26.996 in America, ninety nine point nine percent of the time, 0:20:27.036 --> 0:20:28.956 that's a white man. I was about to ask you 0:20:28.996 --> 0:20:31.076 if you think there's some implicit or maybe not so 0:20:31.116 --> 0:20:34.316 implicit racism in that formulation, and I would also you know, note, 0:20:34.356 --> 0:20:37.796 I mean Joe Biden's situation as we speak is it's 0:20:37.836 --> 0:20:40.956 a little it's a little shaky, and Elizabeth Warren has 0:20:40.996 --> 0:20:44.036 made substantial gains, still white though a woman. I wonder 0:20:44.076 --> 0:20:46.676 if what you're describing really is essentially somebody saying, well, 0:20:46.716 --> 0:20:49.316 sure Barack Obama got elected, but right now the only 0:20:49.356 --> 0:20:51.116 way to beat the white man in the White House 0:20:51.196 --> 0:20:54.116 is with another white person. I think there's a degree 0:20:54.116 --> 0:20:56.636 of that. I think there's also just a degree of familiarity. 0:20:57.076 --> 0:20:59.916 If you have two weapons available to fight back against 0:20:59.956 --> 0:21:01.756 the beast attacking you, are you going to go with 0:21:01.836 --> 0:21:03.156 the one that you've tried one or the one that 0:21:03.156 --> 0:21:05.676 you've tried forty four times? So? Can I then ask you, 0:21:05.796 --> 0:21:09.356 somewhat undiplomatically, and because sometimes you're willing to be undiplomatic too, 0:21:09.516 --> 0:21:12.996 what is the answer for the Democratic Party in twenty 0:21:13.076 --> 0:21:15.396 twenty if it's not to go with the tools that 0:21:15.436 --> 0:21:18.316 we are familiar with. I mean, what would work the best. 0:21:18.316 --> 0:21:20.116 And I'm not asking you to name a particular candidate, 0:21:20.116 --> 0:21:22.756 but I'm asking as a general approach matter, what's the 0:21:23.596 --> 0:21:26.756 message that you think will work beyond you know, the 0:21:26.796 --> 0:21:30.236 current president has terrible views on nearly every topic, which 0:21:30.316 --> 0:21:32.476 is going to be part of any Democrats message. I 0:21:32.516 --> 0:21:35.476 do not subscribe to the notion that we need to 0:21:35.476 --> 0:21:37.556 talk about Trump that often. He's going to talk about 0:21:37.636 --> 0:21:40.876 himself enough, and typically his performance is much stronger than 0:21:40.956 --> 0:21:44.276 any characterization we could offer to those who are willing 0:21:44.316 --> 0:21:46.156 to listen. True, there is a group of people for 0:21:46.236 --> 0:21:49.956 whom he is, he cannot be defeated. And let's acknowledge 0:21:49.996 --> 0:21:53.316 that we lost because we did not turn out the 0:21:53.356 --> 0:21:57.556 people who could have elected our person. And the solution 0:21:57.676 --> 0:22:00.076 is that we have to have a candidate who is 0:22:00.636 --> 0:22:03.236 clear about their values. You don't have to agree with 0:22:03.236 --> 0:22:04.636 all of them, but we need to know what they are, 0:22:05.236 --> 0:22:08.036 who is willing to invest in the actual work of 0:22:08.076 --> 0:22:11.316 winning elections. And that's the place where I think we 0:22:11.396 --> 0:22:15.516 have the weakest performance historically but the greatest opportunity when 0:22:15.516 --> 0:22:18.316 we invest in hard to reach communities. When we invest 0:22:18.756 --> 0:22:23.196 early and broadly in canvassing, in the mechanics of winning 0:22:23.196 --> 0:22:27.316 an election, not the ease of television and not the 0:22:27.476 --> 0:22:32.156 wizardry of digital, but in the hardcore effort of turning 0:22:32.156 --> 0:22:35.476 out voters, we win and we have to broaden our field. 0:22:35.556 --> 0:22:37.916 So that's a good argument for Stacey Abrams for vice president, 0:22:37.996 --> 0:22:40.716 right because whoever the presidential candidate, it is none of them, 0:22:40.836 --> 0:22:43.196 I will say, is super great at that. You are 0:22:43.276 --> 0:22:44.996 great at that. So that's an argument that this is 0:22:45.036 --> 0:22:47.836 an election that can be won in the trenches by turnout. 0:22:47.876 --> 0:22:49.956 And here you are. You are you know, you are 0:22:50.036 --> 0:22:54.796 the the social justice architect of turnout. I've been practicing 0:22:54.796 --> 0:22:57.956 a lot. I don't want I want to be respectful 0:22:57.996 --> 0:22:59.236