1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:25,196 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:25,236 --> 00:00:28,836 Speaker 1: where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:28,876 --> 00:00:32,556 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. A lot of news has happened since 4 00:00:32,596 --> 00:00:36,476 Speaker 1: I was last in your feed. On January sixth, a mob, 5 00:00:36,716 --> 00:00:41,036 Speaker 1: encouraged by Donald Trump some would say incited, stormed the 6 00:00:41,116 --> 00:00:46,556 Speaker 1: Capitol Much later that night, Congress finally certified Joe Biden's 7 00:00:46,596 --> 00:00:51,996 Speaker 1: presidential victory. Democrats almost immediately began work on impeaching the 8 00:00:52,076 --> 00:00:57,796 Speaker 1: president for a second time. All this has almost overshadowed 9 00:00:58,276 --> 00:01:03,476 Speaker 1: huge news out of Georgia. On January fifth, the day 10 00:01:03,516 --> 00:01:09,116 Speaker 1: before the instance on Capitol Hill, two Democrats flipped Senate seat, 11 00:01:09,796 --> 00:01:14,156 Speaker 1: giving the Democratic Party control over the upper chamber of 12 00:01:14,476 --> 00:01:18,796 Speaker 1: Congress fifty fifty, with a tiebreaker going to Vice President 13 00:01:18,876 --> 00:01:24,276 Speaker 1: Kamala Harris. On that historic day, a lot of people 14 00:01:24,636 --> 00:01:30,236 Speaker 1: were talking about one woman, Stacy Abrams. Stacy is a 15 00:01:30,276 --> 00:01:34,476 Speaker 1: politician and activist whose organizing efforts in Georgia played a 16 00:01:34,596 --> 00:01:38,116 Speaker 1: key role, first in helping Joe Biden win the state 17 00:01:38,316 --> 00:01:43,196 Speaker 1: and then in delivering the two Senate flips. Now, Stacy 18 00:01:43,236 --> 00:01:46,956 Speaker 1: Abrams is a household name. In fact, I think she 19 00:01:47,076 --> 00:01:51,596 Speaker 1: is now the most important activist strategist in US politics 20 00:01:51,636 --> 00:01:54,556 Speaker 1: since Karl Rove, and she may turn out to be 21 00:01:54,756 --> 00:01:59,156 Speaker 1: much more important than Rove in the long term. Stacy 22 00:01:59,236 --> 00:02:03,116 Speaker 1: has been working steadily for years on turning Georgia blue 23 00:02:03,316 --> 00:02:07,516 Speaker 1: through creating and leading organizations like the New Georgia Project 24 00:02:07,716 --> 00:02:11,996 Speaker 1: aimed at registering in new voters and Fair Fight aimed 25 00:02:12,076 --> 00:02:16,836 Speaker 1: at fighting voter suppression. Her reproach is going to become 26 00:02:17,156 --> 00:02:22,156 Speaker 1: a new paradigm for Democrats all over the country. They're 27 00:02:22,196 --> 00:02:25,996 Speaker 1: going to focus on registering new voters, on resisting voter suppression, 28 00:02:26,156 --> 00:02:30,636 Speaker 1: and on getting out the vote, particularly for voters of color, who, 29 00:02:30,756 --> 00:02:34,316 Speaker 1: for various complicated reasons, have not always turned out in 30 00:02:34,436 --> 00:02:38,396 Speaker 1: past elections. I spoke to Stacy about a year ago 31 00:02:38,716 --> 00:02:41,716 Speaker 1: when the presidential race was just heating up, and I'm 32 00:02:41,716 --> 00:02:45,516 Speaker 1: excited to re share that conversation with you today. It 33 00:02:45,556 --> 00:02:51,396 Speaker 1: feels like the right time for it. Some background on 34 00:02:51,476 --> 00:02:54,836 Speaker 1: Stacy Abrahams. In twenty eighteen, she ran for governor of 35 00:02:54,836 --> 00:02:59,396 Speaker 1: Georgia and very narrowly lost to Brian Kemp, a Republican 36 00:02:59,556 --> 00:03:01,716 Speaker 1: who was Secretary of State of Georgia at the time, 37 00:03:02,196 --> 00:03:05,236 Speaker 1: meaning he was the one in charge of overseeing the 38 00:03:05,236 --> 00:03:10,156 Speaker 1: election Stacy never conceded the race because she said that 39 00:03:10,276 --> 00:03:14,796 Speaker 1: Kemp had suppressed votes. That experience helped spur her work 40 00:03:15,036 --> 00:03:19,316 Speaker 1: on voting rights and getting every vote counted. I reached 41 00:03:19,316 --> 00:03:25,836 Speaker 1: her last October by phone. Hi, this is Stacey Abrams. Hi, Stacey, 42 00:03:25,836 --> 00:03:27,876 Speaker 1: it's no Effeldman. How are you? I am well? How 43 00:03:27,916 --> 00:03:30,876 Speaker 1: are you? I'm great? Thank you so much for joining us. 44 00:03:30,876 --> 00:03:32,716 Speaker 1: If it's okay with you, we'll just dive right in. 45 00:03:33,396 --> 00:03:35,916 Speaker 1: Sounds good. So I want to begin by asking you 46 00:03:35,996 --> 00:03:40,236 Speaker 1: about two organizations that you've founded, Fair Fight, which is 47 00:03:40,276 --> 00:03:43,836 Speaker 1: devoted to fighting voter suppression, and fair count, which is 48 00:03:43,836 --> 00:03:47,076 Speaker 1: devoted to making sure the census is fair. The fairness 49 00:03:47,156 --> 00:03:49,956 Speaker 1: theme emerge is very powerfully here, and I just want 50 00:03:49,956 --> 00:03:52,716 Speaker 1: to begin by asking you, given your long career in 51 00:03:53,036 --> 00:03:56,236 Speaker 1: public service and as a lawyer, as an entrepreneur, what 52 00:03:56,436 --> 00:04:00,636 Speaker 1: makes you think that fairness is achievable. I'd like to 53 00:04:00,676 --> 00:04:02,676 Speaker 1: begin by a thinking about the fact I grew up 54 00:04:02,716 --> 00:04:05,596 Speaker 1: in the Deep South. I am the daughter of two 55 00:04:05,796 --> 00:04:09,596 Speaker 1: people who are civil rights activist as teenagers, and my 56 00:04:09,676 --> 00:04:13,836 Speaker 1: grandparents and all of those who preceded me either live 57 00:04:13,916 --> 00:04:17,476 Speaker 1: through Jim Crow or the Black Codes, or slavery and 58 00:04:17,556 --> 00:04:21,676 Speaker 1: so I think of fairness as a continuum. Our responsibility 59 00:04:21,756 --> 00:04:25,996 Speaker 1: is to constantly move towards the promise of equality. And 60 00:04:26,076 --> 00:04:29,596 Speaker 1: in each generation of my family's life, progress has been made. 61 00:04:29,956 --> 00:04:33,276 Speaker 1: It has been slow and plotting and painful and violent, 62 00:04:33,676 --> 00:04:37,716 Speaker 1: but it has been achievable. And so my responsibility is 63 00:04:37,756 --> 00:04:42,676 Speaker 1: not simply to see the difficulties that we face, but 64 00:04:42,836 --> 00:04:47,316 Speaker 1: to remember that in each generation, and opportunity to fight 65 00:04:47,356 --> 00:04:51,796 Speaker 1: back against these difficulties has been a critical responsibility. And 66 00:04:52,036 --> 00:04:54,476 Speaker 1: the ultimate goal is not that we will have every 67 00:04:54,516 --> 00:04:57,516 Speaker 1: scene we desire. The goal is that we will have fairness, 68 00:04:57,636 --> 00:05:00,956 Speaker 1: and that is my core belief. That's a moving and 69 00:05:00,996 --> 00:05:03,996 Speaker 1: it's actually even an inspiring answer. You're a lawyer, and 70 00:05:04,036 --> 00:05:05,676 Speaker 1: I don't say that as a bad word. I'm a 71 00:05:05,756 --> 00:05:07,676 Speaker 1: lawyer too. You know, I went to this same law 72 00:05:07,716 --> 00:05:10,316 Speaker 1: school and that you did. People may hold that against us, 73 00:05:10,316 --> 00:05:12,716 Speaker 1: but I don't. But I want to ask about the 74 00:05:12,716 --> 00:05:18,556 Speaker 1: balance between law and more direct social activism because I 75 00:05:18,676 --> 00:05:20,836 Speaker 1: sometimes worry, I mean, I even teach law students for 76 00:05:20,876 --> 00:05:23,036 Speaker 1: a living, and I sometimes worry that I fall too 77 00:05:23,036 --> 00:05:25,516 Speaker 1: far into the category of telling them, Look, this social 78 00:05:25,556 --> 00:05:28,876 Speaker 1: movement generated legal change, and so that's how you know 79 00:05:28,996 --> 00:05:31,676 Speaker 1: that it's a successful social movement in real time, and 80 00:05:31,716 --> 00:05:33,036 Speaker 1: then they sort of look at me, at least when 81 00:05:33,076 --> 00:05:35,036 Speaker 1: they start law school a little skeptically and say, isn't 82 00:05:35,036 --> 00:05:37,156 Speaker 1: it the other way around? I mean, shouldn't the measure 83 00:05:37,156 --> 00:05:41,276 Speaker 1: of a law be whether it produced social change rather 84 00:05:41,356 --> 00:05:43,236 Speaker 1: than the measure of a social movement being whether it 85 00:05:43,356 --> 00:05:46,836 Speaker 1: generated some some legal outcomes. And I'm wondering how you 86 00:05:46,876 --> 00:05:49,636 Speaker 1: see the balance. Obviously we need both, but when you 87 00:05:49,676 --> 00:05:51,596 Speaker 1: think about which comes first, or which needs to be 88 00:05:51,636 --> 00:05:54,036 Speaker 1: more powerful, or where the emphasis should be, where do 89 00:05:54,076 --> 00:05:58,276 Speaker 1: you come down. I think they're inherently intertwined. And I 90 00:05:58,276 --> 00:06:01,756 Speaker 1: think your students are asking smart questions. But I wouldn't 91 00:06:01,756 --> 00:06:05,756 Speaker 1: say unfair. But it's a more complicated question if you 92 00:06:05,796 --> 00:06:09,876 Speaker 1: look at my election, For example, my decision on November 93 00:06:09,876 --> 00:06:15,716 Speaker 1: sixteenth to acknowledge the legal sufficiency of the outcome, recognize 94 00:06:15,716 --> 00:06:18,196 Speaker 1: that there are laws in place that have created the 95 00:06:18,276 --> 00:06:22,716 Speaker 1: very process that was used to thwart voters, that those 96 00:06:22,796 --> 00:06:27,956 Speaker 1: laws have been deemed appropriate by lawmakers. But my refusal 97 00:06:28,076 --> 00:06:31,716 Speaker 1: to concede the election was that I take exception to 98 00:06:31,796 --> 00:06:36,436 Speaker 1: the actual laws themselves, that the very presence of those 99 00:06:36,516 --> 00:06:40,676 Speaker 1: rules that permitted that behavior raises the need to question 100 00:06:40,836 --> 00:06:44,956 Speaker 1: and in our case overturn those laws and reconstruct those laws. 101 00:06:45,836 --> 00:06:50,436 Speaker 1: Social movements give voice and power and face to what 102 00:06:50,676 --> 00:06:54,916 Speaker 1: needs to change. The law gives structure and to the 103 00:06:54,956 --> 00:06:58,796 Speaker 1: extent possible permanence to the existence of that change. And 104 00:06:58,956 --> 00:07:02,356 Speaker 1: for me, I've never seen I understand there's a tension, 105 00:07:02,396 --> 00:07:05,516 Speaker 1: but I've never seen a dichotomy or an order of 106 00:07:05,596 --> 00:07:09,956 Speaker 1: priority to my participation. My response facility is to be 107 00:07:10,036 --> 00:07:13,756 Speaker 1: engaged in the social action that we are pursuing through 108 00:07:13,796 --> 00:07:16,756 Speaker 1: fair fight and fair count. But I am also someone 109 00:07:16,796 --> 00:07:18,516 Speaker 1: who believes that I need to be part of the 110 00:07:18,596 --> 00:07:23,236 Speaker 1: lawmaking process because social movements without a voice in the 111 00:07:23,316 --> 00:07:28,036 Speaker 1: law do not have the longstanding and deep, deeply needed 112 00:07:28,036 --> 00:07:31,556 Speaker 1: of sex if there isn't something implicated into law that 113 00:07:31,916 --> 00:07:36,276 Speaker 1: makes it harder to undo or to thwart the intention. 114 00:07:36,996 --> 00:07:39,796 Speaker 1: I'm really glad you brought up your non concession after 115 00:07:39,836 --> 00:07:43,956 Speaker 1: the twenty eighteen Georgia governor's race, and I want to 116 00:07:44,076 --> 00:07:46,116 Speaker 1: use that as you just raised it to try to 117 00:07:46,436 --> 00:07:48,716 Speaker 1: ask you about a sort of a skeptical question that 118 00:07:48,836 --> 00:07:51,636 Speaker 1: someone from the outside might ask, and they might say, 119 00:07:52,316 --> 00:07:55,756 Speaker 1: you know, it comes down to can the system be 120 00:07:55,836 --> 00:07:59,436 Speaker 1: trusted to change enough to make a difference. So as 121 00:07:59,476 --> 00:08:02,156 Speaker 1: you say, you recognize the legal sufficiency of the outcome 122 00:08:02,196 --> 00:08:04,116 Speaker 1: in the sense that you didn't walk into the governor's 123 00:08:04,276 --> 00:08:07,276 Speaker 1: office and say I'm the governor and ask the Georgia 124 00:08:07,356 --> 00:08:09,916 Speaker 1: State Police to put you in office. But you didn't 125 00:08:09,916 --> 00:08:12,116 Speaker 1: conceive because you didn't want to say I lost in 126 00:08:12,156 --> 00:08:14,316 Speaker 1: a fair fight, because it wasn't a fair fight. And 127 00:08:14,356 --> 00:08:16,156 Speaker 1: so in that sense, you didn't want to say the 128 00:08:16,476 --> 00:08:20,316 Speaker 1: words I lost because you didn't lose in some fairness sense. 129 00:08:21,076 --> 00:08:24,956 Speaker 1: And I guess what I'm wondering is, couldn't someone say, look, 130 00:08:25,156 --> 00:08:27,516 Speaker 1: that suggests the system is just rigged in a way 131 00:08:27,516 --> 00:08:31,116 Speaker 1: where it's not going to change, and if that's the case, 132 00:08:31,476 --> 00:08:33,716 Speaker 1: we need to go outside the system and engage in 133 00:08:33,716 --> 00:08:37,676 Speaker 1: civil disobedience or other more radical forms of efforts to 134 00:08:37,996 --> 00:08:41,236 Speaker 1: not just tweak the system through laws and improvements and 135 00:08:42,196 --> 00:08:46,236 Speaker 1: social activism, but something more fundamental. I would say they're 136 00:08:46,236 --> 00:08:51,476 Speaker 1: absolutely right, But for me, I have always internalized that 137 00:08:51,516 --> 00:08:54,036 Speaker 1: it cannot be one or the other, that it must 138 00:08:54,116 --> 00:08:59,476 Speaker 1: always be this collaboration of challenging the laws as they stand, 139 00:08:59,636 --> 00:09:03,396 Speaker 1: creating better laws and fighting bad laws, and also engaging 140 00:09:03,836 --> 00:09:07,036 Speaker 1: people to press the system for the change that needs 141 00:09:07,036 --> 00:09:09,916 Speaker 1: to happen. Let me ask you about your own personal 142 00:09:09,996 --> 00:09:11,916 Speaker 1: version of this fight. I mean, you wrote a fantastic 143 00:09:11,956 --> 00:09:15,836 Speaker 1: autobiography which huge numbers of people all over read. You 144 00:09:16,236 --> 00:09:19,396 Speaker 1: did a very public response to the state of the Union, 145 00:09:19,756 --> 00:09:23,036 Speaker 1: which is ordinarily something that a senior legislative figure would 146 00:09:23,036 --> 00:09:24,996 Speaker 1: have done at the national level. If the New York 147 00:09:25,036 --> 00:09:27,036 Speaker 1: Times quoted you correctly, they said you were open to 148 00:09:27,076 --> 00:09:29,796 Speaker 1: serving as vice president if asked for any Democratic nominee. 149 00:09:30,356 --> 00:09:34,756 Speaker 1: These are big national within the system undertakings. What do 150 00:09:34,796 --> 00:09:36,676 Speaker 1: you think is the probability that that's where you're going 151 00:09:36,756 --> 00:09:38,916 Speaker 1: to end up going in the next phase of your 152 00:09:39,116 --> 00:09:44,036 Speaker 1: pretty extraordinary story. Thank you again. I do not see 153 00:09:44,076 --> 00:09:48,756 Speaker 1: these as conflicting spaces to operate in. I've always seen 154 00:09:48,796 --> 00:09:52,116 Speaker 1: them as collaborative. When I was a state legislator, when 155 00:09:52,116 --> 00:09:55,076 Speaker 1: I became Democratic leader in the House minority leader of 156 00:09:55,116 --> 00:09:58,196 Speaker 1: our party, one of the challenges we faced was that 157 00:09:58,596 --> 00:10:01,916 Speaker 1: we had eight hundred thousand people of color who were 158 00:10:01,996 --> 00:10:05,116 Speaker 1: not registered to vote in Georgia who were eligible. Those 159 00:10:05,236 --> 00:10:07,876 Speaker 1: who have been in the legislature long before I got 160 00:10:07,916 --> 00:10:11,036 Speaker 1: there had been bemo owning these massive numbers three years. 161 00:10:11,636 --> 00:10:14,756 Speaker 1: My approach was to start the New Georgia Project. So, 162 00:10:14,836 --> 00:10:18,436 Speaker 1: while as sitting legislator and while the leader of my caucus, 163 00:10:18,556 --> 00:10:22,276 Speaker 1: I was also an outside agitator who started an organization 164 00:10:22,356 --> 00:10:24,516 Speaker 1: that it's registered more than four hundred thousand people of 165 00:10:24,556 --> 00:10:28,396 Speaker 1: color in the state of George. As Democratic leader, I 166 00:10:28,476 --> 00:10:31,356 Speaker 1: did not see a conflict between those two responsibilities. There 167 00:10:31,356 --> 00:10:34,236 Speaker 1: were legal issues that I had to be very cognizantve 168 00:10:34,356 --> 00:10:38,236 Speaker 1: and ways that had to manage my responsibilities, but I 169 00:10:38,316 --> 00:10:43,476 Speaker 1: do not see being in elected office as a deterrent 170 00:10:43,676 --> 00:10:46,876 Speaker 1: to being part of a public space. Well it shouldn't 171 00:10:46,876 --> 00:10:48,956 Speaker 1: be a deterrent, but as a pragmatic matter, just to 172 00:10:48,996 --> 00:10:50,916 Speaker 1: be we don't have to be super realistic, but we 173 00:10:50,956 --> 00:10:53,636 Speaker 1: can be mildly realistic. You know, if you listen to 174 00:10:53,716 --> 00:10:57,116 Speaker 1: all the Democratic presidential candidates now, even those who self 175 00:10:57,116 --> 00:11:01,596 Speaker 1: conceive as critics of the existing system, their criticism, though 176 00:11:01,636 --> 00:11:05,716 Speaker 1: in many cases sharp, still comes with a strong aspiration 177 00:11:05,796 --> 00:11:07,916 Speaker 1: to be at the center of power, you know, to 178 00:11:07,996 --> 00:11:12,916 Speaker 1: be sitting in the White House and leading crucial national decisions. 179 00:11:12,916 --> 00:11:14,996 Speaker 1: It's I think it's just the nature running for president. 180 00:11:15,036 --> 00:11:17,716 Speaker 1: You end up talking like you're in the system, that 181 00:11:17,756 --> 00:11:19,716 Speaker 1: you're committed to the system, and then although you want 182 00:11:19,716 --> 00:11:22,156 Speaker 1: to change it, the system basically doesn't need to be 183 00:11:22,196 --> 00:11:26,516 Speaker 1: fundamentally you're structured. I think that that is not inaccurate, 184 00:11:26,556 --> 00:11:31,036 Speaker 1: but I think it ignores, or can ignore, the multiple 185 00:11:31,076 --> 00:11:33,436 Speaker 1: ways you can affect the system before you have that job. 186 00:11:33,996 --> 00:11:37,636 Speaker 1: And so my approach has been this, I attempt to 187 00:11:37,756 --> 00:11:41,836 Speaker 1: leverage whichever you know, sort of the commentary about Atlas. 188 00:11:41,916 --> 00:11:43,516 Speaker 1: You give me a place to stand, and I'm going 189 00:11:43,556 --> 00:11:45,356 Speaker 1: to try my best to shift the world a little bit, 190 00:11:45,596 --> 00:11:48,636 Speaker 1: a terrible reduction of it, but that's how I operate. 191 00:11:48,956 --> 00:11:52,996 Speaker 1: And so for me, the issue has always been you 192 00:11:53,036 --> 00:11:55,796 Speaker 1: have to create external pathways to making change, because systems 193 00:11:55,796 --> 00:11:59,196 Speaker 1: are not going to change themselves without external pressure, and 194 00:11:59,236 --> 00:12:02,556 Speaker 1: so I attempt to create those external pressures. The New 195 00:12:02,556 --> 00:12:05,316 Speaker 1: Georgia Project did so by rich Strain thousands of voters 196 00:12:05,316 --> 00:12:08,676 Speaker 1: who had a very dramatic impact on the outcome of elections. 197 00:12:09,356 --> 00:12:12,356 Speaker 1: Fair Fight and Fair Account will do so by affecting 198 00:12:12,516 --> 00:12:17,116 Speaker 1: voter protection agencies and attempts to make certain that votes 199 00:12:17,156 --> 00:12:20,636 Speaker 1: cannot be stolen afforded. And in each of those instances, 200 00:12:20,636 --> 00:12:23,556 Speaker 1: I've set up organizations where I'm not in charge. I 201 00:12:23,596 --> 00:12:26,116 Speaker 1: am the chair of the board, I am the chief fundraiser. 202 00:12:26,156 --> 00:12:29,796 Speaker 1: I participate in strategy, but I'm not the person who 203 00:12:29,836 --> 00:12:33,036 Speaker 1: does the daily work because I am inside the system 204 00:12:33,076 --> 00:12:36,716 Speaker 1: and there is a conflict that happens. It's very difficult 205 00:12:36,756 --> 00:12:40,196 Speaker 1: to dismantle a system that you are deeply embedded in, 206 00:12:40,556 --> 00:12:43,396 Speaker 1: and so part of my responsibility is to use my 207 00:12:43,476 --> 00:12:47,156 Speaker 1: inside knowledge to create outside forces and then to populate 208 00:12:47,236 --> 00:12:50,316 Speaker 1: those forces so that if I move back inside, they 209 00:12:50,356 --> 00:12:53,596 Speaker 1: can still operate without me. The New Georgia Project is 210 00:12:53,756 --> 00:12:56,756 Speaker 1: entirely independent now. Fair fight and fair account. Should I 211 00:12:56,756 --> 00:13:00,076 Speaker 1: stand for another public office, will also quickly erase me 212 00:13:00,116 --> 00:13:03,476 Speaker 1: from their boards. And that's my job. My job is 213 00:13:03,516 --> 00:13:07,436 Speaker 1: to be aware enough to know that when you are 214 00:13:07,476 --> 00:13:11,476 Speaker 1: inside the system, it is disingenuous to say that you're 215 00:13:11,516 --> 00:13:15,036 Speaker 1: going to wholly deconstruct it. But it is also an 216 00:13:15,036 --> 00:13:18,156 Speaker 1: opportunity to use what you learn from inside the system 217 00:13:18,596 --> 00:13:22,076 Speaker 1: to arm the populace to challenge and improve a system 218 00:13:22,116 --> 00:13:25,236 Speaker 1: from the outside. It's a little daunting to imagine the 219 00:13:25,356 --> 00:13:28,356 Speaker 1: huge number of different jobs that you actually have created 220 00:13:28,396 --> 00:13:32,276 Speaker 1: for yourself. We haven't even gotten to author of romance novels, 221 00:13:32,276 --> 00:13:33,916 Speaker 1: which I promised will come to before the end of 222 00:13:33,916 --> 00:13:36,796 Speaker 1: our conversation. But when you wake up in the morning, 223 00:13:37,436 --> 00:13:39,036 Speaker 1: how do you know what you're literally I mean, I 224 00:13:39,036 --> 00:13:40,836 Speaker 1: mean it's the most prosaic level, like how do you 225 00:13:40,836 --> 00:13:42,676 Speaker 1: know what you're going to do next? Do you look 226 00:13:42,676 --> 00:13:45,196 Speaker 1: at your calendar? Do you how do you know which 227 00:13:45,236 --> 00:13:47,516 Speaker 1: of these many responsibilities is the one that you should 228 00:13:47,556 --> 00:13:53,876 Speaker 1: start working on that morning? It's order of urgency. Typically, again, 229 00:13:53,996 --> 00:13:56,356 Speaker 1: I do my best to make certain that there are 230 00:13:56,596 --> 00:13:59,796 Speaker 1: teams of people who can help me determine where my 231 00:13:59,916 --> 00:14:02,676 Speaker 1: best value add is. And so my wife is basically 232 00:14:02,716 --> 00:14:05,356 Speaker 1: at the mercy of a bunch of millennials and a 233 00:14:05,436 --> 00:14:08,236 Speaker 1: huge en xers who organize my day. So just to 234 00:14:08,236 --> 00:14:11,116 Speaker 1: get a picture of this, you're kind of the chairman 235 00:14:11,116 --> 00:14:16,316 Speaker 1: and CEO of Stacy Abram's Social Justice, Inc. And you 236 00:14:16,316 --> 00:14:18,076 Speaker 1: you know you've got it's a conglomerate with lots of 237 00:14:18,076 --> 00:14:21,916 Speaker 1: little subparts. And in there are your your millennials, in 238 00:14:21,956 --> 00:14:25,276 Speaker 1: your handful of gen xers, and they're they're each running 239 00:14:25,316 --> 00:14:28,316 Speaker 1: their own effectively startups which you started. In each case 240 00:14:28,396 --> 00:14:32,156 Speaker 1: it's your socialist or political seed capital, and you're weighing 241 00:14:32,156 --> 00:14:34,396 Speaker 1: in to try to make sure they're all keeping it 242 00:14:34,476 --> 00:14:36,236 Speaker 1: in order or something like that. Is that am I 243 00:14:36,276 --> 00:14:38,996 Speaker 1: getting the picture. That's exactly it. And I think it's 244 00:14:38,996 --> 00:14:43,476 Speaker 1: important because often in social justice movements, culti personality tends 245 00:14:43,516 --> 00:14:47,756 Speaker 1: to organize around the founder, and the founder serves not 246 00:14:47,876 --> 00:14:53,436 Speaker 1: only as the creator but also the full crom around 247 00:14:53,436 --> 00:14:57,196 Speaker 1: which everything circulates, and that, to me is a dangerous position. 248 00:14:57,716 --> 00:15:00,396 Speaker 1: I am in politics, I am also incredibly human and 249 00:15:00,476 --> 00:15:04,716 Speaker 1: thus flawed. And anytime a social movement has to adopt 250 00:15:05,156 --> 00:15:10,076 Speaker 1: or rely on the personality or the foibles of their founder, 251 00:15:10,676 --> 00:15:12,916 Speaker 1: you're setting yourself up for trouble. So part of my 252 00:15:12,996 --> 00:15:16,516 Speaker 1: responsibility is to work as assiduously as possible to make 253 00:15:16,516 --> 00:15:19,916 Speaker 1: myself irrelevant to the long term success of the organization. 254 00:15:20,116 --> 00:15:21,836 Speaker 1: Can I just say, I mean, you want to run 255 00:15:21,836 --> 00:15:24,476 Speaker 1: for national office, you want to be have your maximal impact. 256 00:15:24,556 --> 00:15:27,116 Speaker 1: Cultive personality is what it's all about. I mean, what 257 00:15:27,676 --> 00:15:30,556 Speaker 1: I'm wondering is when you go out there, as you're 258 00:15:30,596 --> 00:15:33,756 Speaker 1: doing now, building your I don't want to call it 259 00:15:33,756 --> 00:15:35,436 Speaker 1: a brand, because I had to test that terminology for 260 00:15:35,476 --> 00:15:40,476 Speaker 1: public servants, but building the message connected to you and 261 00:15:40,716 --> 00:15:42,396 Speaker 1: the things that you want to be known for and 262 00:15:42,476 --> 00:15:45,956 Speaker 1: known for doing. What's your brief description of how you 263 00:15:45,996 --> 00:15:48,036 Speaker 1: want to be seen by the broader world? Not by 264 00:15:48,036 --> 00:15:50,036 Speaker 1: your constituents in Georgia who know you well, but by 265 00:15:50,036 --> 00:15:55,556 Speaker 1: the country. I am an architect of social justice, and 266 00:15:55,836 --> 00:15:59,036 Speaker 1: that means standing in the spaces where I can be 267 00:15:59,076 --> 00:16:01,516 Speaker 1: most effective and doing the work that is most needed, 268 00:16:01,756 --> 00:16:03,436 Speaker 1: where I'm the right person to do the work and 269 00:16:03,476 --> 00:16:05,036 Speaker 1: it's the right time for that work to be done. 270 00:16:05,436 --> 00:16:08,476 Speaker 1: So architect of social justice. And is that, you know, 271 00:16:08,676 --> 00:16:12,196 Speaker 1: not apical consultant. But is that a teeny bit abstract 272 00:16:12,796 --> 00:16:17,316 Speaker 1: for a factory worker who's lost his job or a 273 00:16:17,396 --> 00:16:20,876 Speaker 1: mother who's working several jobs and trying to go to 274 00:16:21,236 --> 00:16:23,556 Speaker 1: night school at the same time. Is architect of social 275 00:16:23,556 --> 00:16:27,236 Speaker 1: justice concrete enough? The way you have a conversation with 276 00:16:27,676 --> 00:16:31,676 Speaker 1: a potential constituent begins with meeting them where they are. 277 00:16:31,916 --> 00:16:34,596 Speaker 1: And so I wouldn't start by saying who I am. 278 00:16:34,636 --> 00:16:37,956 Speaker 1: I would start by asking what they need and talk 279 00:16:38,036 --> 00:16:41,156 Speaker 1: then about how my skills, how my architecture skills, how 280 00:16:41,196 --> 00:16:46,076 Speaker 1: my management skills help me deliver that. But to your point, 281 00:16:46,156 --> 00:16:49,116 Speaker 1: one of the most difficult parts of running for office 282 00:16:49,636 --> 00:16:52,756 Speaker 1: is trying to come up with something reductive enough to 283 00:16:52,916 --> 00:16:56,716 Speaker 1: be a sound bite, but meaningful enough to actually convey 284 00:16:57,436 --> 00:17:02,036 Speaker 1: your intention. And that's really hard. I don't try. I 285 00:17:02,196 --> 00:17:04,876 Speaker 1: was slightly a conoclastic in my campaign in part because 286 00:17:05,276 --> 00:17:08,516 Speaker 1: I do not look like or operate in the way 287 00:17:08,516 --> 00:17:12,876 Speaker 1: that most traditional politicians do, and that of itself became 288 00:17:13,196 --> 00:17:16,636 Speaker 1: my brand, which is that I'm much more like you 289 00:17:16,836 --> 00:17:19,956 Speaker 1: than like them. You do things differently. Yeah, I did, 290 00:17:20,236 --> 00:17:22,556 Speaker 1: but I also have experienced many of these things. I 291 00:17:22,596 --> 00:17:24,516 Speaker 1: can talk about criminal justice reform because I have a 292 00:17:24,556 --> 00:17:27,156 Speaker 1: younger brother who is in and out of jail. I 293 00:17:27,156 --> 00:17:29,596 Speaker 1: can talk about mental health issues because one of the 294 00:17:29,596 --> 00:17:31,596 Speaker 1: reasons he finds himself in and out of jail is 295 00:17:31,636 --> 00:17:34,916 Speaker 1: that he had an undiagnosed mental health disorder and he 296 00:17:34,996 --> 00:17:38,116 Speaker 1: cannot receive healthcare for it because of his ex offender 297 00:17:38,156 --> 00:17:41,276 Speaker 1: status and because of the challenges with Southern healthcare delivery. 298 00:17:41,516 --> 00:17:43,836 Speaker 1: I can talk about debt because I've been in it 299 00:17:44,236 --> 00:17:47,556 Speaker 1: and I know what it means. And so part of 300 00:17:47,596 --> 00:17:51,716 Speaker 1: my part of what I think resonates is that I 301 00:17:51,796 --> 00:17:56,716 Speaker 1: don't attempt to create this reductive line that makes me 302 00:17:56,916 --> 00:17:59,716 Speaker 1: palatable and acceptable to all people, because the minute you've 303 00:17:59,756 --> 00:18:02,476 Speaker 1: done that, it is so benign that has no meaning 304 00:18:02,516 --> 00:18:03,996 Speaker 1: at all. So I think what I hear you saying 305 00:18:03,996 --> 00:18:05,836 Speaker 1: is that it helps to be a real person, and 306 00:18:06,076 --> 00:18:08,676 Speaker 1: you're not ashamed of actually being a real person, not 307 00:18:08,756 --> 00:18:12,796 Speaker 1: at all my whole life. Yeah, and you've been able 308 00:18:12,836 --> 00:18:15,156 Speaker 1: to speak directly and honestly to people about that, and 309 00:18:15,156 --> 00:18:17,276 Speaker 1: that is really that has really resonated. And I do 310 00:18:17,316 --> 00:18:20,116 Speaker 1: think that's hugely important because the approach you described, where 311 00:18:20,156 --> 00:18:23,116 Speaker 1: you start by meeting the voter, that can work incredibly 312 00:18:23,116 --> 00:18:25,876 Speaker 1: well at a smaller scale when you can actually meet 313 00:18:25,916 --> 00:18:29,116 Speaker 1: the voters, but when the scale becomes national, that just 314 00:18:29,156 --> 00:18:31,756 Speaker 1: becomes extraordinarily difficult. And I think here of someone who's 315 00:18:31,796 --> 00:18:34,236 Speaker 1: you know, our rough contemporary, a friend of mine and 316 00:18:34,236 --> 00:18:36,836 Speaker 1: probably a friend of yours too, Corey Booker, who's an 317 00:18:36,836 --> 00:18:40,756 Speaker 1: extremely successful politician at the one on one or one 318 00:18:40,796 --> 00:18:43,036 Speaker 1: on small group level. You know, when one meets Corey, 319 00:18:43,036 --> 00:18:45,476 Speaker 1: one is blown away by his enthusiasm and his charisma 320 00:18:45,476 --> 00:18:48,796 Speaker 1: and his capacity to connect. And on the national scale, 321 00:18:48,876 --> 00:18:52,116 Speaker 1: he's had a hard time translating that. I think, really, 322 00:18:52,156 --> 00:18:55,396 Speaker 1: you know, one in a million kind of personality into 323 00:18:55,916 --> 00:18:58,276 Speaker 1: something that resonates on the broader level. And it's not 324 00:18:58,276 --> 00:19:01,036 Speaker 1: for any lack of sincerity. It's just that the medium 325 00:19:01,116 --> 00:19:04,036 Speaker 1: of trying to reach people all over the country via 326 00:19:04,036 --> 00:19:07,116 Speaker 1: a television set or a social media account is just 327 00:19:07,276 --> 00:19:10,756 Speaker 1: really different than being a human being looking somebody in 328 00:19:10,756 --> 00:19:13,396 Speaker 1: the eyes and interacting with them. I would say that 329 00:19:13,996 --> 00:19:17,636 Speaker 1: this is a very specific moment in our political history, 330 00:19:17,956 --> 00:19:21,836 Speaker 1: and we're this a normative election where we were simply 331 00:19:22,316 --> 00:19:25,356 Speaker 1: arguing about the margins and the shift from one leader 332 00:19:25,716 --> 00:19:28,756 Speaker 1: on the margins to the next. I would say that 333 00:19:29,156 --> 00:19:33,356 Speaker 1: Corey would his resonance would be much sharper because we 334 00:19:33,436 --> 00:19:39,396 Speaker 1: are in this moment of panic and existential fear. I 335 00:19:39,436 --> 00:19:42,676 Speaker 1: think there's a retrenchment that is happening that doesn't allow 336 00:19:42,796 --> 00:19:49,076 Speaker 1: for newness and for his brand of personal engagement in 337 00:19:49,196 --> 00:19:51,796 Speaker 1: this moment. I do not think it's just positive of 338 00:19:51,876 --> 00:19:54,876 Speaker 1: his long term capacity to demonstrate him. So I think 339 00:19:54,876 --> 00:19:57,036 Speaker 1: it's less than medium than that moment. That's quite interesting. 340 00:19:57,036 --> 00:20:01,916 Speaker 1: It is. Yeah, if you watch how people react, how 341 00:20:01,956 --> 00:20:03,636 Speaker 1: they say they want to react, and how they are 342 00:20:03,636 --> 00:20:06,916 Speaker 1: telling posters they will react, which are often very different 343 00:20:07,036 --> 00:20:09,956 Speaker 1: in this moment, It's what I kept hearing, Oh, I 344 00:20:10,076 --> 00:20:12,196 Speaker 1: like you a lot. I think you're wonderful, but I'm 345 00:20:12,236 --> 00:20:13,636 Speaker 1: not sure you can be the one to do it. 346 00:20:13,916 --> 00:20:16,396 Speaker 1: And so there's a lot of i'm not sure happening. 347 00:20:16,796 --> 00:20:20,956 Speaker 1: And when that is the case, people tend to return 348 00:20:21,116 --> 00:20:23,956 Speaker 1: to what is the most familiar and most comfortable, and 349 00:20:24,036 --> 00:20:26,996 Speaker 1: in America, ninety nine point nine percent of the time, 350 00:20:27,036 --> 00:20:28,956 Speaker 1: that's a white man. I was about to ask you 351 00:20:28,996 --> 00:20:31,076 Speaker 1: if you think there's some implicit or maybe not so 352 00:20:31,116 --> 00:20:34,316 Speaker 1: implicit racism in that formulation, and I would also you know, note, 353 00:20:34,356 --> 00:20:37,796 Speaker 1: I mean Joe Biden's situation as we speak is it's 354 00:20:37,836 --> 00:20:40,956 Speaker 1: a little it's a little shaky, and Elizabeth Warren has 355 00:20:40,996 --> 00:20:44,036 Speaker 1: made substantial gains, still white though a woman. I wonder 356 00:20:44,076 --> 00:20:46,676 Speaker 1: if what you're describing really is essentially somebody saying, well, 357 00:20:46,716 --> 00:20:49,316 Speaker 1: sure Barack Obama got elected, but right now the only 358 00:20:49,356 --> 00:20:51,116 Speaker 1: way to beat the white man in the White House 359 00:20:51,196 --> 00:20:54,116 Speaker 1: is with another white person. I think there's a degree 360 00:20:54,116 --> 00:20:56,636 Speaker 1: of that. I think there's also just a degree of familiarity. 361 00:20:57,076 --> 00:20:59,916 Speaker 1: If you have two weapons available to fight back against 362 00:20:59,956 --> 00:21:01,756 Speaker 1: the beast attacking you, are you going to go with 363 00:21:01,836 --> 00:21:03,156 Speaker 1: the one that you've tried one or the one that 364 00:21:03,156 --> 00:21:05,676 Speaker 1: you've tried forty four times? So? Can I then ask you, 365 00:21:05,796 --> 00:21:09,356 Speaker 1: somewhat undiplomatically, and because sometimes you're willing to be undiplomatic too, 366 00:21:09,516 --> 00:21:12,996 Speaker 1: what is the answer for the Democratic Party in twenty 367 00:21:13,076 --> 00:21:15,396 Speaker 1: twenty if it's not to go with the tools that 368 00:21:15,436 --> 00:21:18,316 Speaker 1: we are familiar with. I mean, what would work the best. 369 00:21:18,316 --> 00:21:20,116 Speaker 1: And I'm not asking you to name a particular candidate, 370 00:21:20,116 --> 00:21:22,756 Speaker 1: but I'm asking as a general approach matter, what's the 371 00:21:23,596 --> 00:21:26,756 Speaker 1: message that you think will work beyond you know, the 372 00:21:26,796 --> 00:21:30,236 Speaker 1: current president has terrible views on nearly every topic, which 373 00:21:30,316 --> 00:21:32,476 Speaker 1: is going to be part of any Democrats message. I 374 00:21:32,516 --> 00:21:35,476 Speaker 1: do not subscribe to the notion that we need to 375 00:21:35,476 --> 00:21:37,556 Speaker 1: talk about Trump that often. He's going to talk about 376 00:21:37,636 --> 00:21:40,876 Speaker 1: himself enough, and typically his performance is much stronger than 377 00:21:40,956 --> 00:21:44,276 Speaker 1: any characterization we could offer to those who are willing 378 00:21:44,316 --> 00:21:46,156 Speaker 1: to listen. True, there is a group of people for 379 00:21:46,236 --> 00:21:49,956 Speaker 1: whom he is, he cannot be defeated. And let's acknowledge 380 00:21:49,996 --> 00:21:53,316 Speaker 1: that we lost because we did not turn out the 381 00:21:53,356 --> 00:21:57,556 Speaker 1: people who could have elected our person. And the solution 382 00:21:57,676 --> 00:22:00,076 Speaker 1: is that we have to have a candidate who is 383 00:22:00,636 --> 00:22:03,236 Speaker 1: clear about their values. You don't have to agree with 384 00:22:03,236 --> 00:22:04,636 Speaker 1: all of them, but we need to know what they are, 385 00:22:05,236 --> 00:22:08,036 Speaker 1: who is willing to invest in the actual work of 386 00:22:08,076 --> 00:22:11,316 Speaker 1: winning elections. And that's the place where I think we 387 00:22:11,396 --> 00:22:15,516 Speaker 1: have the weakest performance historically but the greatest opportunity when 388 00:22:15,516 --> 00:22:18,316 Speaker 1: we invest in hard to reach communities. When we invest 389 00:22:18,756 --> 00:22:23,196 Speaker 1: early and broadly in canvassing, in the mechanics of winning 390 00:22:23,196 --> 00:22:27,316 Speaker 1: an election, not the ease of television and not the 391 00:22:27,476 --> 00:22:32,156 Speaker 1: wizardry of digital, but in the hardcore effort of turning 392 00:22:32,156 --> 00:22:35,476 Speaker 1: out voters, we win and we have to broaden our field. 393 00:22:35,556 --> 00:22:37,916 Speaker 1: So that's a good argument for Stacey Abrams for vice president, 394 00:22:37,996 --> 00:22:40,716 Speaker 1: right because whoever the presidential candidate, it is none of them, 395 00:22:40,836 --> 00:22:43,196 Speaker 1: I will say, is super great at that. You are 396 00:22:43,276 --> 00:22:44,996 Speaker 1: great at that. So that's an argument that this is 397 00:22:45,036 --> 00:22:47,836 Speaker 1: an election that can be won in the trenches by turnout. 398 00:22:47,876 --> 00:22:49,956 Speaker 1: And here you are. You are you know, you are 399 00:22:50,036 --> 00:22:54,796 Speaker 1: the the social justice architect of turnout. I've been practicing 400 00:22:54,796 --> 00:22:57,956 Speaker 1: a lot. I don't want I want to be respectful 401 00:22:57,996 --> 00:22:59,236 Speaker 1: of your time, but I also don't want to let 402 00:22:59,236 --> 00:23:02,716 Speaker 1: you go without asking you about Selena Montgomery, your alter 403 00:23:02,836 --> 00:23:06,956 Speaker 1: ego and pen name. How do you, I mean, how 404 00:23:06,996 --> 00:23:10,116 Speaker 1: do you decide you're going to change the mood, walk 405 00:23:10,116 --> 00:23:13,356 Speaker 1: away from social justice and start writing romance? And I 406 00:23:13,436 --> 00:23:16,556 Speaker 1: will say just from a quick plans, not romance that 407 00:23:16,716 --> 00:23:20,476 Speaker 1: is without some spice. Well, it's a part and parcels 408 00:23:20,476 --> 00:23:24,356 Speaker 1: who I am. I love writing, I love storytelling, and 409 00:23:24,556 --> 00:23:28,116 Speaker 1: you know all of my novels sit into the romance genre, 410 00:23:28,196 --> 00:23:30,956 Speaker 1: but I kill a lot of people. I write about 411 00:23:30,956 --> 00:23:35,276 Speaker 1: ethnobotanists and cognitive scientists and chemical physicists, so I get 412 00:23:35,316 --> 00:23:37,196 Speaker 1: to explore all the other things I would have been 413 00:23:37,236 --> 00:23:40,596 Speaker 1: had I not followed whatever pasta is. I'm on. But 414 00:23:40,756 --> 00:23:44,676 Speaker 1: I also enjoy just creating universes and worlds where people 415 00:23:44,716 --> 00:23:47,556 Speaker 1: can lose themselves and learn something and emerge a little 416 00:23:47,556 --> 00:23:50,916 Speaker 1: happy because two people found each other and tell them love. Well. 417 00:23:50,956 --> 00:23:54,476 Speaker 1: I hope that Selena Montgomery becomes the fictional vice president 418 00:23:54,516 --> 00:23:58,196 Speaker 1: and that Stacey Abrahams becomes the actual real world social 419 00:23:58,236 --> 00:24:01,076 Speaker 1: justice architect of vice presidential candidate. I'm super grateful to 420 00:24:01,076 --> 00:24:03,556 Speaker 1: you for your time, and thank you so much for 421 00:24:03,556 --> 00:24:05,996 Speaker 1: such a thoughtful and deep conversation. Well, no, I will 422 00:24:06,036 --> 00:24:08,636 Speaker 1: say this, this has been delightful. You were one of 423 00:24:08,676 --> 00:24:10,916 Speaker 1: the three else who's really nice to me as a 424 00:24:10,956 --> 00:24:13,116 Speaker 1: one l and you have no reason to remember this, 425 00:24:13,156 --> 00:24:15,716 Speaker 1: but you were very kind to me one day at 426 00:24:16,076 --> 00:24:18,716 Speaker 1: at Yale, and I remember that fondly and was happy 427 00:24:18,716 --> 00:24:20,516 Speaker 1: to do this. That's super nice to be you to say, 428 00:24:20,516 --> 00:24:24,156 Speaker 1: I really I appreciate that tremendously. We'll be right back. 429 00:24:34,036 --> 00:24:37,356 Speaker 1: Listening again to my conversation with Stacy, a little more 430 00:24:37,356 --> 00:24:40,116 Speaker 1: than a year after we originally had it, I couldn't 431 00:24:40,156 --> 00:24:44,276 Speaker 1: help but think that although January sixth, twenty twenty one 432 00:24:44,596 --> 00:24:47,596 Speaker 1: was a shocking day, a dark day in the history 433 00:24:47,596 --> 00:24:51,756 Speaker 1: of American democracy, the day when the Capitol was stormed, 434 00:24:52,436 --> 00:24:58,076 Speaker 1: January fifth, twenty twenty one was an extraordinary, indeed wonderful 435 00:24:58,196 --> 00:25:02,996 Speaker 1: day for American democracy, a day in which Stacy Abrams's 436 00:25:02,996 --> 00:25:07,316 Speaker 1: strategy fully paid off, and in which the Democrats flipped 437 00:25:07,516 --> 00:25:12,316 Speaker 1: two Senate seats in joy having previously won Georgia for 438 00:25:12,636 --> 00:25:17,356 Speaker 1: Joe Biden in the twenty twenty presidential election. The reason 439 00:25:17,516 --> 00:25:22,116 Speaker 1: January fifth, twenty twenty one is so historically significant is 440 00:25:22,116 --> 00:25:25,516 Speaker 1: that it's long been the case that if African Americans 441 00:25:25,516 --> 00:25:29,316 Speaker 1: in Georgia, who are overwhelmingly Democrats, turned out to vote 442 00:25:29,356 --> 00:25:34,636 Speaker 1: in large numbers, that constituency would effectively guarantee the election 443 00:25:34,676 --> 00:25:40,836 Speaker 1: of Democrats to statewide office in that frequently Republican leaning state. 444 00:25:41,796 --> 00:25:44,796 Speaker 1: The reason that that turnout had historically been lower is 445 00:25:44,836 --> 00:25:48,796 Speaker 1: a very complicated story, one that inevitably begins in the 446 00:25:48,876 --> 00:25:54,396 Speaker 1: history of segregation, disenfranchisement, and voters. Segregation and then evolved 447 00:25:54,636 --> 00:25:58,236 Speaker 1: slowly into more modern forms of the same. Coupled with 448 00:25:58,436 --> 00:26:03,116 Speaker 1: insufficient ground efforts by Democrats to make sure that African 449 00:26:03,156 --> 00:26:06,676 Speaker 1: Americans understood that their voices were valued and heard, and 450 00:26:06,836 --> 00:26:10,956 Speaker 1: turned out to vote more than any other single person. 451 00:26:11,556 --> 00:26:17,276 Speaker 1: Stacy Abrams was central to shifting democratic efforts in Georgia 452 00:26:17,436 --> 00:26:21,956 Speaker 1: and to developing a brand new strategy. What this means 453 00:26:22,236 --> 00:26:26,836 Speaker 1: for the Democratic Party and for American politics is potentially 454 00:26:26,876 --> 00:26:32,716 Speaker 1: truly profound. Everywhere across the country, African American voters tend 455 00:26:32,796 --> 00:26:36,436 Speaker 1: to turn out in lower numbers than they might turn 456 00:26:36,476 --> 00:26:40,356 Speaker 1: out if efforts like those in Georgia were used, and 457 00:26:40,556 --> 00:26:43,956 Speaker 1: everywhere that that is true, the presence of larger turnout 458 00:26:44,036 --> 00:26:49,636 Speaker 1: by African American voters could substantially transform the way democratic 459 00:26:49,636 --> 00:26:56,316 Speaker 1: politics works in the United States. Political strategy always involves imitation, 460 00:26:56,596 --> 00:27:00,956 Speaker 1: the sincerest form of flattery. Now that Stacy's strategy worked 461 00:27:00,996 --> 00:27:05,516 Speaker 1: so spectacularly both in the presidential race and the Senate 462 00:27:05,596 --> 00:27:09,636 Speaker 1: races in Georgia, it is going to be copied. Just 463 00:27:09,676 --> 00:27:13,436 Speaker 1: a few days after the historic Georgia victory, I read 464 00:27:13,476 --> 00:27:17,636 Speaker 1: a newspaper article describing how the Stacey Abraham's approach was 465 00:27:17,676 --> 00:27:21,116 Speaker 1: going to be used for the Boston, Massachusetts mayoral race. 466 00:27:21,716 --> 00:27:25,716 Speaker 1: Now Boston, Massachusetts is already an overwhelmingly democratic city, but 467 00:27:26,036 --> 00:27:28,156 Speaker 1: what the people who were speaking in the article meant 468 00:27:28,516 --> 00:27:31,196 Speaker 1: was that the same approach to getting every vote out 469 00:27:31,236 --> 00:27:34,516 Speaker 1: and getting every vote counted, especially the votes of voters 470 00:27:34,556 --> 00:27:37,756 Speaker 1: of color, was going to become the key to winning 471 00:27:38,076 --> 00:27:42,516 Speaker 1: that race in a city very far from Georgia. We're 472 00:27:42,596 --> 00:27:46,676 Speaker 1: going to see similar efforts by Democrats across the South, 473 00:27:47,116 --> 00:27:52,396 Speaker 1: across the Midwest, and potentially even beyond that. Stacy is 474 00:27:52,436 --> 00:27:56,036 Speaker 1: going to become the go to person to explain how 475 00:27:56,116 --> 00:28:00,156 Speaker 1: she did it, a process that she described herself to 476 00:28:00,236 --> 00:28:04,756 Speaker 1: us in the interview. Sure, Stacy started in the trenches 477 00:28:05,076 --> 00:28:09,756 Speaker 1: founding these organizations that she runs and subsequently running for office. 478 00:28:10,436 --> 00:28:14,876 Speaker 1: But simultaneously, she also did not treat herself as though 479 00:28:14,876 --> 00:28:17,076 Speaker 1: she was the only person who could do the work. 480 00:28:17,636 --> 00:28:22,716 Speaker 1: She created institutions that were self sustaining and put herself 481 00:28:23,116 --> 00:28:26,276 Speaker 1: much more in the founder chairperson role than in the 482 00:28:26,356 --> 00:28:30,236 Speaker 1: day to day CEO role. She was the theorist, and indeed, 483 00:28:30,236 --> 00:28:33,556 Speaker 1: to use the phrase that Stacy herself used, she was 484 00:28:33,676 --> 00:28:37,596 Speaker 1: the architect. Listening to my conversation with Stacy, I notice 485 00:28:37,876 --> 00:28:40,516 Speaker 1: to my embarrassment that I was a little skeptical about 486 00:28:40,556 --> 00:28:46,316 Speaker 1: the formulation social justice architect. Well, boy, was I wrong. Indeed, 487 00:28:46,516 --> 00:28:49,916 Speaker 1: what Stacy Abrams accomplished in the twenty twenty twenty one 488 00:28:49,956 --> 00:28:54,116 Speaker 1: election was precisely being an architect of a new form 489 00:28:54,196 --> 00:28:59,836 Speaker 1: of social justice through her extraordinary voting efforts. Now, let 490 00:28:59,876 --> 00:29:03,076 Speaker 1: me be clear, the events that took place on January 491 00:29:03,156 --> 00:29:06,796 Speaker 1: six are events that deserve to be remembered for the 492 00:29:06,836 --> 00:29:11,836 Speaker 1: outrageousness that they produced. Donald Trump's calling to a crowd 493 00:29:11,916 --> 00:29:14,396 Speaker 1: to march on the Capitol when he knew the crowd 494 00:29:14,476 --> 00:29:17,276 Speaker 1: was riled up, when he knew that it contained many 495 00:29:17,316 --> 00:29:20,636 Speaker 1: people who might be entirely willing to storm the Capitol itself, 496 00:29:20,916 --> 00:29:23,476 Speaker 1: when he knew that the overall goal was to interfere 497 00:29:23,676 --> 00:29:25,796 Speaker 1: with accounting of the votes that would have assured that 498 00:29:25,836 --> 00:29:31,356 Speaker 1: Joe Biden would become president. Those were instances of impeachable conduct. 499 00:29:31,596 --> 00:29:35,436 Speaker 1: They were high crimes and misdemeanors under the Constitution. By 500 00:29:35,476 --> 00:29:39,156 Speaker 1: focusing today on Stacy Abrams, I in no way want 501 00:29:39,236 --> 00:29:44,716 Speaker 1: to downplay the significance of Trump's wrongdoing, nor the appropriateness 502 00:29:44,876 --> 00:29:48,916 Speaker 1: of Congress taking action, including impeachment if it so chooses 503 00:29:49,276 --> 00:29:53,316 Speaker 1: to try to hold Trump accountable. That's all the more 504 00:29:53,356 --> 00:29:57,116 Speaker 1: important because as you hear these words, Donald Trump has 505 00:29:57,156 --> 00:30:01,236 Speaker 1: just a few days left in his term as president, 506 00:30:01,676 --> 00:30:05,036 Speaker 1: and in that time he is of course capable of 507 00:30:05,076 --> 00:30:08,836 Speaker 1: doing still more to interfere with the democratic process, whether 508 00:30:08,876 --> 00:30:12,876 Speaker 1: he does so or not. But our reason to listen 509 00:30:12,916 --> 00:30:17,156 Speaker 1: again to Stacy Abrams's interview is to acknowledge that we 510 00:30:17,276 --> 00:30:21,196 Speaker 1: cannot only be pessimistic and backwards looking when we think 511 00:30:21,236 --> 00:30:24,156 Speaker 1: of the events of the first part of twenty twenty one. 512 00:30:24,476 --> 00:30:28,276 Speaker 1: We must also be optimistic and forward looking, and that 513 00:30:28,356 --> 00:30:34,276 Speaker 1: optimism starts but does not end, with Stacy Abrams. Her 514 00:30:34,316 --> 00:30:38,236 Speaker 1: efforts are inspiring, and you can be very sure we're 515 00:30:38,276 --> 00:30:41,556 Speaker 1: going to hear her name a lot in the years 516 00:30:41,556 --> 00:30:51,676 Speaker 1: to come. One last thing before we go. We could 517 00:30:51,716 --> 00:30:55,876 Speaker 1: all use a little entertainment right now. Kurt Anderson and 518 00:30:55,956 --> 00:30:59,516 Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin have teamed up to create a new audiobook 519 00:30:59,676 --> 00:31:04,516 Speaker 1: called Asta la Vista America, Trump's Farewell Address. It's the 520 00:31:04,596 --> 00:31:09,116 Speaker 1: perfect deranged finale to a deranged era, and it's available 521 00:31:09,196 --> 00:31:13,396 Speaker 1: exclusively at a Trump Farewell dot Com for only ninety 522 00:31:13,476 --> 00:31:17,236 Speaker 1: nine cents. It's possibly the last time we'll hear Alec 523 00:31:17,276 --> 00:31:22,636 Speaker 1: Baldwin doing Trump and it's memorable. Eventually, maybe we'll remember 524 00:31:22,716 --> 00:31:26,076 Speaker 1: Baldwin's Trump a lot better than we remember the real guy. 525 00:31:26,916 --> 00:31:32,476 Speaker 1: By Ostalla Vista America now at a Trump Farewell dot Com. 526 00:31:32,916 --> 00:31:44,356 Speaker 1: Here's an excerpt. My fellow Americans, Happy New Year. That's right. 527 00:31:45,196 --> 00:31:48,196 Speaker 1: For a while, you're still free to say Happy New 528 00:31:48,276 --> 00:31:51,916 Speaker 1: Year like you were free on New Year's Eve, together 529 00:31:52,036 --> 00:31:56,556 Speaker 1: together and have fantastic parties and hug and sing and 530 00:31:56,756 --> 00:32:04,676 Speaker 1: kiss without masks. Okay, hope, I gotta or with masks, 531 00:32:05,236 --> 00:32:08,516 Speaker 1: your choice, especially if you're not immune like me and 532 00:32:08,596 --> 00:32:12,676 Speaker 1: the First Family. But soon, in March or April or whenever, 533 00:32:12,796 --> 00:32:15,996 Speaker 1: try going into a restaurant or a store if they're 534 00:32:15,996 --> 00:32:19,716 Speaker 1: not all shut down already and say Happy Easter. They'll 535 00:32:19,756 --> 00:32:22,156 Speaker 1: scream at you, kick you out, even if you're wearing 536 00:32:22,156 --> 00:32:27,916 Speaker 1: a mask. America will be much less great again, My 537 00:32:28,076 --> 00:32:32,636 Speaker 1: fellow Americans, this is the most important speech I've ever given, 538 00:32:33,196 --> 00:32:38,556 Speaker 1: the most important in history. Speaking of history, George Washington, 539 00:32:38,676 --> 00:32:42,596 Speaker 1: I cannot tell a lie, just like me, although I 540 00:32:42,636 --> 00:32:45,596 Speaker 1: actually could tell lies if I wanted, but I don't. 541 00:32:45,836 --> 00:32:49,236 Speaker 1: And that's actually why they hate me. The phonies, the radicals, 542 00:32:49,276 --> 00:32:53,396 Speaker 1: the liberals, the elitis, the fake media, the antifas, because 543 00:32:53,476 --> 00:33:00,276 Speaker 1: I tell too much truth. But our first president, first 544 00:33:00,036 --> 00:33:04,236 Speaker 1: forty five, Washington invented what I'm doing now, what many 545 00:33:04,316 --> 00:33:08,676 Speaker 1: historians call his farewell address. He could have run again 546 00:33:09,156 --> 00:33:12,636 Speaker 1: one very easily, another term, then again and again and 547 00:33:12,676 --> 00:33:15,996 Speaker 1: again forever. No rule against it. And back then also 548 00:33:16,076 --> 00:33:23,076 Speaker 1: elections weren't rigged. In his farewell address, George Washington told America, 549 00:33:23,156 --> 00:33:28,276 Speaker 1: like I'm doing now, why he decided against staying in Washington, 550 00:33:28,356 --> 00:33:31,396 Speaker 1: d C. For another four years. No thanks bye, by 551 00:33:31,636 --> 00:33:36,116 Speaker 1: going home after fighting so hard for freedom, heading south 552 00:33:36,516 --> 00:33:40,036 Speaker 1: with the first lady, play golf sport of Kings, back 553 00:33:40,076 --> 00:33:43,116 Speaker 1: to the big beautiful plantation with his own two hundred 554 00:33:44,476 --> 00:33:49,956 Speaker 1: lifetime personal employees, almost like family, very diverse, like Marlago. 555 00:33:50,636 --> 00:33:55,556 Speaker 1: As they say, history repeats. So this is my totally 556 00:33:55,836 --> 00:34:04,596 Speaker 1: voluntary farewell address to you the people. Farewell, hope, like 557 00:34:04,716 --> 00:34:12,556 Speaker 1: we talked about, farewell for now as far as the 558 00:34:12,556 --> 00:34:16,316 Speaker 1: White House goes, because never say never. I mean, you know, 559 00:34:17,196 --> 00:34:19,716 Speaker 1: after the total takeover by the communists, look at that 560 00:34:19,876 --> 00:34:22,636 Speaker 1: squad over in Congress. I call it a death squad, 561 00:34:22,796 --> 00:34:26,916 Speaker 1: like in the bad places they come from. Ill Han Cortez, 562 00:34:27,076 --> 00:34:37,236 Speaker 1: Ayana Ocasio, Rashida Kamala, also Booker. When they're thousands of 563 00:34:37,396 --> 00:34:40,876 Speaker 1: thugs and bad umbres show up in your suburbs and 564 00:34:40,916 --> 00:34:44,916 Speaker 1: towns flown in from Detroit and Chicago, plus the antifas 565 00:34:44,916 --> 00:34:47,636 Speaker 1: from Portland and Seattle, who can blend in look like 566 00:34:47,676 --> 00:34:50,996 Speaker 1: your own kids, so sneaky, then you'll be saying, sir, 567 00:34:51,236 --> 00:34:54,476 Speaker 1: we want you back, we need you back right away. Well, 568 00:34:54,516 --> 00:35:00,636 Speaker 1: don't say your President Trump didn't warn you until next week, 569 00:35:00,956 --> 00:35:03,516 Speaker 1: when we will be back to you with a fresh 570 00:35:03,596 --> 00:35:08,636 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one episode. Be careful, be safe, and be well. 571 00:35:09,676 --> 00:35:12,516 Speaker 1: Deep background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our 572 00:35:12,556 --> 00:35:16,116 Speaker 1: producer is Lydia Gencott, our engineer is Martin Gonzalez, and 573 00:35:16,196 --> 00:35:19,396 Speaker 1: our showrunner is Sophie Crane mckibbon. Theme music by Luis 574 00:35:19,396 --> 00:35:23,556 Speaker 1: Skerra at Pushkin. Thanks to Mia Lobell, Julia Barton, Heather Faine, 575 00:35:23,676 --> 00:35:27,636 Speaker 1: Carlie mcliori, Mackie Taylor, Eric Sandler, and Jacob Weisberg. You 576 00:35:27,676 --> 00:35:30,396 Speaker 1: can find me on Twitter at Noah Rfeld. I also 577 00:35:30,396 --> 00:35:32,716 Speaker 1: write a column for Bloomberg Opinion, which you can find 578 00:35:32,756 --> 00:35:36,956 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com. Slashfeld to discover Bloomberg's original slate 579 00:35:36,996 --> 00:35:40,796 Speaker 1: of podcasts. Go to bloomberg dot com slash podcasts, and 580 00:35:40,876 --> 00:35:42,916 Speaker 1: if you liked what you heard today, please write a 581 00:35:42,956 --> 00:35:45,876 Speaker 1: review or tell a friend. This is deep background