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Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Marketman Show. My

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Speaker 1: guest today is Cliff As. Cliff is co founder and

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Speaker 1: managing principle of AQR Capital Management, A one fifty five

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Speaker 1: be quantitative investment manager. Hi, Cliffs, so nice to have

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Speaker 1: you on.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Carol, It's nice to be here.

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Speaker 3: Cliff.

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Speaker 1: Those words, I mean, I don't really know what my

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Speaker 1: husband does, so I really don't know what is a

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Speaker 1: one fifty five be quantitative investment manager?

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Speaker 4: I think probably me. But someone sent you an abbreviation

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Speaker 4: for a billion dollars. Okay, we manage about one hundred

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Speaker 4: and fifty billion dollars for clients.

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Speaker 2: I see.

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Speaker 1: And did you always want to be a quantitative investment manager?

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Speaker 2: I don't think anyone.

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Speaker 5: Did you dream of that? As a little boy?

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Speaker 2: Seven? Play in a little league?

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Speaker 4: Says, you know what I want to do is grow

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Speaker 4: up to be a quantitative investment manager.

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Speaker 5: So what did you want to?

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Speaker 2: Always?

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Speaker 4: Kind of a mathey kid, I kind of just got

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Speaker 4: led down that path and I'm very happy with it,

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Speaker 4: not just in how it turned out, but I've found

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Speaker 4: it extremely interesting and loved learning about it. But no,

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Speaker 4: it would be a lie to say prior to being

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Speaker 4: somewhere in my early twenties. Probably that I that I thought, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I'm going to be a quantitative.

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Speaker 2: Investment manager.

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Speaker 4: Maybe nowadays is there's a great cartoon making fun of

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Speaker 4: where I live Greenwich, Connecticut that has like two little

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Speaker 4: kids talking and one's making fun of the other because

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Speaker 4: their father runs the wrong kind of hedge fund.

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Speaker 2: How embarrassing, you know.

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Speaker 4: Maybe nowadays kids are are more tuned to these things

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Speaker 4: at an earlier age. But at the age of seven,

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Speaker 4: I thought I'd be a lawyer or a baseball player.

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Speaker 4: And when I discovered that in real life baseball didn't

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Speaker 4: let you hit off a tee, I was down a

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Speaker 4: little more.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So what would have been plan B if this

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Speaker 1: hadn't worked out? Not at seven, but let's say in

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Speaker 1: your early twenties, what were the other options?

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Speaker 4: I probably would have been an attorney. I come from

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Speaker 4: a family not all but with a fair amount. My

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Speaker 4: dad was an assistant district attorney. I have a cousin

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Speaker 4: who's kind of the weird sheep of the family or

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Speaker 4: no one really talks to.

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Speaker 2: Who was John Gotti's attorney in the nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 5: Sounds like an interesting cousin.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know if my firm is thrilled with

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Speaker 4: me mentioning that association. Okay, but you can't control what

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Speaker 4: you cut, can't control what your father's cousin does, It's true.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think that was probably the path the

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Speaker 2: least resistance for me.

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Speaker 4: When I was in college, I was studying both computer

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Speaker 4: science and finance in this dual degree program, but I

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Speaker 4: still actually registered for the l SATs and.

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Speaker 5: All registered for the ELSATS.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: It was like autopilot for me. It's what I always assumed.

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Speaker 4: And it was my father, who again was an attorney,

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Speaker 4: who said, why I thought you gave.

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Speaker 2: Up on that?

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Speaker 4: Why do you want to be a lawyer. You can

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Speaker 4: do math. I can't do math. I wouldn't do law

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Speaker 4: if I could do math. Yeah, and he I literally

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Speaker 4: changed it from the l SATs to the gmats based

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Speaker 4: on my dad. Wow, he was pretty wise, and listening

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Speaker 4: to him did work out for me a few times.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't take the g mats because I can't

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Speaker 1: do math, and I did take the l SATs. And

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Speaker 1: my husband, who was just my friend at the time, said,

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Speaker 1: I don't know any happy lawyers. I really wou wouldn't

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Speaker 1: recommend that you go into this. So what has made

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Speaker 1: you just I guess we're not going to get too

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Speaker 1: much into politics at all, but you are outspoken.

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Speaker 5: What makes you kind.

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Speaker 2: Of do that?

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Speaker 1: What makes you take take positions and be outspoken?

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Speaker 4: Wish I fully understood that. My partners wish they fully

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Speaker 4: understood that. My wife, which is she fully understood that.

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Speaker 4: You know, if you look within my field, I'm known

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Speaker 4: as a bit of a flamethrower.

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Speaker 2: I think I've been on the side or right. When

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Speaker 2: I think something is kind of.

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Speaker 4: A scam, I scream about it, and that's my interpretation.

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Speaker 4: Those I'm screaming at might not share that interpretation. But

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Speaker 4: I've always been kind of passionate, self confident to perhaps

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Speaker 4: the point of overconfidence. I've always mistakenly, possibly mistakenly, thought

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Speaker 4: I was funnier than I am. All that is a

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Speaker 4: recipe for someone who's going to tweet their opinions.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's a dopamine hit, I admit that.

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Speaker 4: But also, if you do feel passionately about some things

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Speaker 4: I do about some things in the political arena, even

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Speaker 4: if it's a micro amount, if you feel that you

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Speaker 4: have any influence, that's quite a heady feeling, and it's

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Speaker 4: it almost starts to feel a little like a responsibility

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Speaker 4: to share what you're thinking. And I'm not saying I'm

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Speaker 4: sitting around altruistically all the time when I'm fighting with

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Speaker 4: someone on Twitter, thinking now I'm making the world a

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Speaker 4: better place. But the whole combination, you know, and it's

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Speaker 4: not just Twitter. I think I have eleven or some

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Speaker 4: odd op eds in the Wall Street Journal, some of

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Speaker 4: just financees, some get pretty political in commentary of in

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Speaker 4: the free press.

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Speaker 2: I'm passionate about this stuff.

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Speaker 4: Most of the stuff I actually write about at least

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Speaker 4: overlaps with economics and finance. There's a lot in politics

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Speaker 4: that we all might be passionate about that that that,

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Speaker 4: you know, I don't think I have any special standing

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Speaker 4: to write about, but it is, particularly if there's any

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Speaker 4: overlap with economics or finance. I enjoy it, and you know, obviously,

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Speaker 4: like everyone else on Earth, I think I'm right that

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Speaker 4: it doesn't narrow it down.

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Speaker 2: So I think I'm helping and I can't quite resist it.

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Speaker 5: See you as a very moderate guy.

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Speaker 1: It's funny that you you self describe as a flamethrower,

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Speaker 1: because I think of you as I mean you could

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Speaker 1: be sharp, you know, but you you take sort of

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Speaker 1: moderate normal positions.

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Speaker 4: Well, like a typical article that I'd write that fulfills

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Speaker 4: both of these things would be like, there are two

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Speaker 4: sides making insane claims about what this willow will not

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Speaker 4: do for investors, and the answer is really in the middle,

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Speaker 4: and it's much mondier. So the actual article is what

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Speaker 4: you said the way I say it.

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Speaker 2: I admit this.

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Speaker 4: I fall in love with a good quipures, whether.

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Speaker 2: It's mean or like.

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Speaker 4: Like I talk about private assets, and one of their

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Speaker 4: advantages that I think is unfair is they don't have

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Speaker 4: to tell you what the prices are right, And in finance,

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Speaker 4: you worry about this thing called volatility, how much your

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Speaker 4: investments move around. So I coined the phrase volatility laundering,

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Speaker 4: like they're found a way to hide the volatility that

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Speaker 4: has some unfairly negative implications. I do not think they're

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Speaker 4: committing a crime, for instance. Yeah, but once I one

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Speaker 4: of my major weaknesses is once I come up with

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Speaker 4: a phrase I think is pithy, it the chance I'm

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Speaker 4: gonna not say it is vanishingly small. So I think

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Speaker 4: you can square this circle. I can be harsh and

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Speaker 4: biting but I think my my actual opinions are are

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Speaker 4: usually not too not too extreme.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, not outside the mainstream for sure. Do you consider

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Speaker 1: yourself an optimist?

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Speaker 2: No, there's a joke in my family.

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Speaker 4: My wife claims she didn't quite say this, but I

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Speaker 4: believe your wife.

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Speaker 5: Whatever it is, I believe your wife.

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Speaker 4: But the joke is that she says, my glass is

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Speaker 4: in half empty or half full, it's bone dry, which

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Speaker 4: I though. One of my best friends and one of

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Speaker 4: my co founders of a q R, John lou tells

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Speaker 4: me that I talk like a pessimist, but I act

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Speaker 4: like an optimist starting affirm from leaving Goldman Sachs to

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Speaker 4: start a firm that may or may not work, believing

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Speaker 4: in what you do even when it's going through tough times.

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Speaker 2: And I think he may be right.

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Speaker 4: You know, at this point you grow up with a

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Speaker 4: lot of a cynical, sarcastic Jewish.

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Speaker 2: Humor that's always doom and gloom.

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Speaker 4: That even I can't tell sometimes if I'm actually pessimist,

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Speaker 4: figure if I'm just used to.

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Speaker 2: Speaking that way.

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Speaker 4: When my brother and I watch sports together, and if

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Speaker 4: we're not together, we're texting during the games, it's all pessimism.

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Speaker 2: We could be up.

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Speaker 4: I rout for the Yankees in baseball the Rangers in hockey.

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Speaker 4: Those are my two main sports. But all the New

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Speaker 4: York teams based.

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Speaker 2: Except a few, we'll text each other.

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Speaker 4: Like the Yankees were up ten to one yesterday, one

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Speaker 4: of I texted my brother, this ain't over and it's

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Speaker 4: supposed to be over. And I'm I'm cherry picking the

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Speaker 4: example because the game ended ten, right, which.

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Speaker 2: Is not supposed to happen. The Yankees have a bullpen

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Speaker 2: problem this year.

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Speaker 4: But at ten to one, you're pretty certain you're going

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Speaker 4: to win the game, right har You.

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Speaker 1: Know, you're you're protecting your emotions, so when they do lose, you're.

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Speaker 5: Going to be like, well, I knew they were going

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Speaker 5: to lose, you know, and if they win, bonus.

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Speaker 2: That is the strategy.

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Speaker 4: And I've done it my whole life, and I continue

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Speaker 4: to do it, and I still think it's a failed strategy.

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Speaker 2: I just can't get away from.

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Speaker 4: Because I don't think it actually produces the pain as

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Speaker 4: much as its supposed to.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it does.

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Speaker 4: I think when the bad thing happens, I still I

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Speaker 4: still feel it. So yeah, I've been doing it all wrong,

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Speaker 4: but you know it's it's gotten me pretty far, so

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Speaker 4: I'm probably gonna stick with it.

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Speaker 5: What do you worry about?

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Speaker 2: Worry about these days? Give me categories? There are so

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Speaker 2: many things to worry about.

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Speaker 5: It just whatever, whatever keeps you up.

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Speaker 2: You said.

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Speaker 4: And I don't want to get too deep into politics,

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Speaker 4: but you can't look at our politics and not be frightened.

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Speaker 4: For a long time, I've been a self described kind

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Speaker 4: of center right libertarian leaning, and that makes you pretty

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Speaker 4: homeless these days. Politically, I am a big believer in

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Speaker 4: horseshoe theory, where you go left or right far enough

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Speaker 4: and you start looking like authoritarian socialists. And I don't

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Speaker 4: think either authoritarianism or socialism is moral or works.

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Speaker 2: So that is a worry.

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Speaker 4: I'm not, you know, to make what I said before

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Speaker 4: maybe a little bit of a lie. I'm not a

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Speaker 4: total pessimist on this, in that we've seen a lot

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Speaker 4: of things in this country that have then fixed themselves,

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Speaker 4: and I think it is important to remember that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but I don't like where we are politically.

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Speaker 4: I'm my libertarianism, I can say, through some worries, has

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Speaker 4: been tested a lot. I still would call myself a

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Speaker 4: libertarian but a much weaker one than maybe ten fifteen

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Speaker 4: years ago. You know, you can go anywhere all the

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Speaker 4: things we've legalized, drug, legalization, online gambling. In principle, I've

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Speaker 4: always been adults can do whatever the hell they want.

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Speaker 5: Me too do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I still ned out that way.

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Speaker 4: But I'm a little I will admit to uncertainty, right, little.

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Speaker 4: I think it has been more negative of an impact

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Speaker 4: than I would have guessed, right, And so do I

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Speaker 4: feel a little queasier about that. Some of that might

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Speaker 4: be having four twenty something year old kids. And if

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Speaker 4: kids don't make you a little less libertarian, I can't fight.

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Speaker 1: Adults can do whatever they want, but not you kids,

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Speaker 1: not you adults.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because they're still kids, no matter how old they are. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: here's here's another one. AI.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I bow to no one on making fun of

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Speaker 4: people I call Luod Heites for less forty years of

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Speaker 4: my life.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 4: You know, the idea that has been brought so many

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Speaker 4: times that productivity enhancing things is going to destroy the

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Speaker 4: world because it's gonna put everyone out of a job

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Speaker 4: has been wrong every single time.

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Speaker 2: It's always made the productivity of workers.

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Speaker 4: Maybe not this time, yes, maybe not this time, I

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Speaker 4: would not go so far as to predict disaster. There's

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Speaker 4: a difference between, you know, walking around with the sandwich

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Speaker 4: board around saying the world's gonna end yeah, versus saying

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Speaker 4: you're a little more worried than you ever thought you

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Speaker 4: would be.

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Speaker 2: Again, this might be having kids.

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Speaker 4: When you have twenty something kids entering the workforce and

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Speaker 4: you're thinking, exactly what the hell are they going to do? Yeah,

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Speaker 4: that'll focus the mind, you know, long term, I'm a

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Speaker 4: techno optimist about these things. If it brings massive abundance

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Speaker 4: and prosperity with very little human work necessary, that's not

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Speaker 4: necessarily a terrible place to end up. But the transition

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Speaker 4: to that world where we all identify with work and

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Speaker 4: value work in.

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Speaker 2: A sci fi kind of world, which you know, it's

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Speaker 2: less sci fi.

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Speaker 4: Every day, where we have great abundance without having to

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Speaker 4: work tremendously, we have to adjust to that.

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Speaker 2: You're not going to stop technology.

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Speaker 4: So something I've always believed in that that work, you know,

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Speaker 4: is a wonderful principle to organize your life on.

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Speaker 2: That might have to change.

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Speaker 4: And the transition makes me pretty me pretty nervous, right,

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Speaker 4: even though I'm still thinking we're gonna end up in

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Speaker 4: a good.

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Speaker 1: Place, and the transitions like coming soon. It's it's not

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Speaker 1: something you know ten years out, twenty years out. It

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Speaker 1: seems like it's like two years out, five years out.

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Speaker 5: Do you agree with that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I was an undergraduate computer science major

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Speaker 4: in the ninete It was the nineteen eight and involved

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Speaker 4: four trend so it's not exactly cutting edge AI. But

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Speaker 4: you know, I probably know a little bit more about

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Speaker 4: the stuff than the average person, and I'm cantinually like

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Speaker 4: even the experts. I think even the AI experts get

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Speaker 4: surprised at how fast everything has moved. I don't think

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Speaker 4: there are probably some who got a ride, of course

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Speaker 4: there's always some, but five ten years ago, I think

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Speaker 4: most people, even people who know a lot more than me,

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Speaker 4: would be surprised at how fast it's coming. And because

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Speaker 4: this technology builds upon itself, it helps build the next

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Speaker 4: version of itself, the speed just keeps accelerating. Yeah, the

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Speaker 4: life's going to be different in five years and very

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Speaker 4: different in twenty years more.

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Speaker 5: Coming up with cliff fastness.

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Speaker 3: But first history shows that every market eventually falls, every

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Speaker 3: The Carol Mark which show continues after this, So a.

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Speaker 1: Question I ask all of my guests, is what advice

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Speaker 1: would you give your sixteen year old self? And I

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Speaker 1: want you to answer that, but I also want to

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Speaker 1: know what advice do you give a sixteen year old today?

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Speaker 1: So if you could do both of those.

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Speaker 2: Sure, probably pretty similar for me.

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Speaker 4: I might tailor it a little bit, you know, start

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Speaker 4: thinking about how you're going to deal with hair loss.

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Speaker 4: When I was sixteen, I subscribe to the old wives

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Speaker 4: tale that it's your father, it's your mother's father, that

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Speaker 4: that determines this, and it is maybe correlated, but it's

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Speaker 4: far from this positive. And my mother's father unfortunately passed

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Speaker 4: away in his mid sixties, but with a full, beautiful

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Speaker 4: head of hair.

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Speaker 2: Like stalin, so I thought I was immune.

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Speaker 4: You know, if I want to cheat, I might just

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Speaker 4: whisper the words in vidia.

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Speaker 2: But that's probably that isn't fair. I find I am

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Speaker 2: going to try to answer the question.

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Speaker 4: Carol, but I always have to be careful. I don't

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Speaker 4: often get questions like this, but I do. I speak

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Speaker 4: in public, and sometimes I get them. And a lot

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Speaker 4: of answers sound like platitudes to me, and even more

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Speaker 4: than a platitude, a lot of answers kind of ignore

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Speaker 4: trade offs. H I should have done more of this. Well,

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Speaker 4: to do more of this, yet you probably had to

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Speaker 4: do less of something. When I was young, I used

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Speaker 4: to read a ton in the back of a car.

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Speaker 4: It never bothered me to read in a car, which

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Speaker 4: is just a lucky life advantage if that doesn't bother you.

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Speaker 4: And my mom always used to say, you're never going

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Speaker 4: to know how to get anywhere.

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Speaker 2: You're paying no attention.

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Speaker 4: You have your just nose in a book, and many

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Speaker 4: years well, yeah, that's a separate thing. I love when

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Speaker 4: technology specifically fixes something I suck at. But years later

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Speaker 4: my mom would kind of gloat about this a little bit.

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Speaker 4: And my mom was a wonderful person, but she wasn't

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Speaker 4: above gloating about being right, because you know we're related and.

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Speaker 2: We both do that.

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Speaker 4: She'd be like, I told you wouldn't know how to

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Speaker 4: get anywhere. We're all that reading. And I would be like,

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Speaker 4: and this is maybe this is a little arrogant, but

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Speaker 4: I'd be Mom, maybe the reading helped with something else, right.

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Speaker 2: You can't just switch one off, yeah, and have the other.

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Speaker 4: I do subscribe to the old cliche, which has been

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Speaker 4: if you look on the internet, has been claimed by

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Speaker 4: like the Internet is ruined quotes every quote I think

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Speaker 4: I knew is the Internet had some smart ass explaining

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Speaker 4: to me, No, it wasn't actually FDR who said that

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Speaker 4: fear itself thing.

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Speaker 2: Now I think he said that one.

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Speaker 5: I think you did say that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know, the old If I had known

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Speaker 4: i'd live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself.

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Speaker 4: I would tell the sixteen year old me that you're

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Speaker 4: going to spend from the age of twenty five to

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Speaker 4: fifty five eating like crap and exercise very little because

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Speaker 4: you're obsessed with your job, and maybe use that as

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Speaker 4: an excuse.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes you're just tired.

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Speaker 4: I got religion about four or five years ago, and

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Speaker 4: I feel much better. Really, yeah, I do, But you

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Speaker 4: can't totally fix thirty.

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Speaker 2: Years of indolence.

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Speaker 4: My sixteen year By the way, anything I'm gonna tell

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Speaker 4: my sixteen year old self, they're going to totally ignore.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, of course.

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Speaker 4: So the other question involved here is how to actually

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Speaker 4: convince your sixteen year old self to do what you're saying.

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Speaker 4: Here's a weird one. If the circumstances are right. This

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Speaker 4: is certainly something I would never force try to have

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Speaker 4: kids earlier in life than you were thinking about. My

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Speaker 4: wife and I had kids in our mid to late pies,

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Speaker 4: and I would not trade these kids for anything in

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Speaker 4: the world. But I wish I was fifty at this

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Speaker 4: stage of their life instead of hitting sixty in a year.

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Speaker 2: So, you know, that's a real hard thing for a

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Speaker 2: kid to think.

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Speaker 4: About, Where will I be when my kid is ex

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Speaker 4: But again, with the benefit of hindsight, that maybe is

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Speaker 4: overly specific, but my back was already beginning to hurt

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Speaker 4: when my kids were fifteen and wanted to do something.

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Speaker 4: It would have been nice to have that front loaded

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Speaker 4: a little bit again.

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Speaker 5: Career sure, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And you got to find the right person.

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Speaker 4: You know. I would certainly not sacrifice that, yes, just

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Speaker 4: to have it exactly the kids, But that might be

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Speaker 4: a substantive thing I tell my sixteen year old self

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Speaker 4: and tell my kids.

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Speaker 2: I think my wife has told my kids.

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Speaker 4: That, right. You know, advice that I probably wouldn't give

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Speaker 4: myself just didn't apply to me. But you know that

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Speaker 4: I might give a sixteen year old now, maybe even

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Speaker 4: a college age kid career advice. This one's also overly specific,

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Speaker 4: but I think a lot of kids chase the currently

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Speaker 4: hot job and I've seen a lot of we interview

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Speaker 4: a lot of people at top schools. Sometimes wear the

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Speaker 4: hot job. Sometimes it's a different field. Yeah, I think

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Speaker 4: you're always five to.

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Speaker 2: Ten years behind if you're chasing the hot job.

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Speaker 4: If you're talented, you're going to be successful at something,

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Speaker 4: and it's not a disaster.

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Speaker 2: But I'm not.

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Speaker 4: Saying follow your bliss. When someone says follow their bliss,

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Speaker 4: I want to punch them in the face. My bliss

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Speaker 4: is punching people who say follow their bliss.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, I am joking. I'm not one

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Speaker 2: of these.

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Speaker 4: You know, punching in the face on the internet people.

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Speaker 4: There's no actual violence being advocated here. When choosing your career,

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Speaker 4: you're definitely allowed to think about, you know, what it

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Speaker 4: provides for you.

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Speaker 2: But if you're always.

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Speaker 4: Saying, wow, everyone wants to be a management consultant now,

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Speaker 4: so you know, a lot of top students are naturally competitive.

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Speaker 4: If that's the career everyone wants now, they want to

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Speaker 4: get the best one. And I'm not I'm not picking

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Speaker 4: on management consulting. I don't even know where they are

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Speaker 4: in the pecking order right now. But I'm saying a

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Speaker 4: lot of kids, particularly top performers chase what's hot at

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Speaker 4: the time, figuring out what they're very good at and

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Speaker 4: what they like the best subject to being a lucrative.

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Speaker 2: Career that they can do well at.

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Speaker 4: I think they'd be better off not jumping on the bandwagon.

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Speaker 5: It's the hottest job right now.

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Speaker 2: So that was a Pope Carie of weirdly disparaty.

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Speaker 5: You enjoyed all of that. Actually, I think you are

439
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Speaker 5: super interesting.

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Speaker 1: I could listen to the Cliff Asna's show every day

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Speaker 1: if you want to have that. I really enjoyed getting

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Speaker 1: to know you on here, and I just am so

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Speaker 1: glad you came on.

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Speaker 5: Leave us here with your best tip for my listeners

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Speaker 5: on how they can improve their lives.

446
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 2: Can I be sarcastic for sex?

447
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 5: Be sarcastic?

448
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 4: Spend spend less time thinking and researching how to improve

449
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 4: your life? You know, as an extreme example, don't ever

450
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 4: read about other people's morning routines. For God's sakes, post

451
00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:00,439
Speaker 4: your own their lies. You know everyone's morning route. As

452
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 4: I wake up at four am, I have just seen

453
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 4: I have six egg whites.

454
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's not what you're doing.

455
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 4: No, I did very little planning and very little conscious improvement.

456
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 4: Find something you're passionate about, don't be afraid to be

457
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 4: obsessive about it. Don't plan on how you do things

458
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 4: optimally when you eventually do them, Just actually do something

459
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 4: you can balance, you know, life. Balance is wonderful and

460
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,679
Speaker 4: overrated at the same time. You can balance your life

461
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 4: through time, but not at all times, meaning there are

462
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,440
Speaker 4: times you could take it easier and pursue other things.

463
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 4: There are times you want to be an obsessive nut,

464
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:48,120
Speaker 4: and there are times you really can't do both at once.

465
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,360
Speaker 2: The habit all.

466
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 4: I don't think I ever quite had it all at

467
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 4: one time, you know, in a very personal sense. At

468
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 4: one point one of my co founders and I flowed down.

469
00:23:59,240 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 2: At work.

470
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 4: We delegated a lot of responsibility, partially because when you

471
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 4: have really great people, they have to grow so the

472
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 4: But you know, this maybe should have been a tip

473
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 4: in number two and not number three.

474
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 2: Going forward, we've changed that.

475
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 4: We've gotten much more hands on, and I will be

476
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:16,880
Speaker 4: until I retire.

477
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 5: Really what made you change?

478
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 2: I would say, do things well. It wasn't working very well.

479
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 4: It was getting very bureaucratic, and and and and and sclerotic.

480
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 4: H John and John and I John Lewis, the fellow

481
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 4: i'm referring to as a co founder with mine along

482
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,199
Speaker 4: with David Cabilla. We were still involved and still had

483
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 4: final say, and we had a whole firm trying to

484
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,400
Speaker 4: get to consensus before coming to us. Yeah, and sometimes

485
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 4: it was six months of that and we didn't even realize.

486
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 4: When you have a leaner, smaller organization that you're very

487
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,919
Speaker 4: involved with, you may not make every decision right, but

488
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 4: you make them fast and firm. And it's like military

489
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 4: tacticians say, you know, there's some quote, I'm going to

490
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 4: mangle it. A good plant secuted quickly is better than

491
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:06,159
Speaker 4: a perfect plan. Yeah, and I think there's something that

492
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 4: that there's something to that. Do whatever you're doing full

493
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 4: speed until you don't do it, and then don't try

494
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 4: to do it half speed.

495
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 2: Let someone else move on.

496
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 5: Thank you so much. He is Cliff Asnaz. Check him

497
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 5: out on X.

498
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:23,400
Speaker 1: He's got really interesting perspective and I always enjoy following him.

499
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: Thank you Cliff for coming on.

500
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 2: It's a lot of fun. Carol, thank you