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Speaker 1: The Hunting Collective is presented by Element. I guess I

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Speaker 1: grew up on an all day. Hey, everybody, welcome to

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Speaker 1: episode A one hundred and forty of The Hunting Collective.

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Speaker 1: I'm Ben O'Brien. Say hello, Philip, Hello, ben Jamin Big

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Speaker 1: show today, Phil Big show too. That's what they tell me.

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Speaker 1: That's what they tell it. Phil's nervous. You're nervously. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm not really nervous. Yeah, we didn't. We didn't. We

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Speaker 1: didn't pre record our conversation with Barry. So that's all

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Speaker 1: gonna be. It's all gonna be live. That's true. We

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Speaker 1: have not done this yet. Yeah, so we're gonna call

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Speaker 1: Dr Barry Kay Gilbert. Um, if you haven't listened to,

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Speaker 1: we'll give you a moment here. If you haven't listened

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Speaker 1: to a contentious interview of episode eighty two of the show,

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Speaker 1: believe it's at two from last year. Go back now

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Speaker 1: and listen, and we're back. I hope you had fun

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Speaker 1: with that. UM. Safe to say, as I said at

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Speaker 1: the end of last week's episode, that conversation is the

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Speaker 1: most talked about conversation we've had here on the show.

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Speaker 1: It has spawned hashtags, memes, uh, cocktails that has spawned

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Speaker 1: a lot of things in the in the TCHC world.

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Speaker 1: So what better to do than to to have Barry

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Speaker 1: Dr Barry K. Gilbert on to talk about to reflect

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Speaker 1: on it, to talk about, you know, what he really

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Speaker 1: thinks about hunting and predators, and just briefly chat with

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Speaker 1: him and try to, you know, essentially bury the hatchet

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Speaker 1: in a way that'll makes all feel good about that

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Speaker 1: last interaction. So I figure, why not fill the floor?

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Speaker 1: Is yours too to comment here, bud Well, I mean

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Speaker 1: I kind of mentioned it last week. I'm just I

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Speaker 1: have mixed feelings about reconnecting with Barry because I just

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Speaker 1: feel like, um coming to to a to a middle

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Speaker 1: ground place of understanding didn't seem like a possibility after

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Speaker 1: the last show, And I it's it's become kind of

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Speaker 1: an infamous incident on th HC. And uh, I think

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Speaker 1: it may it might be, I don't know. For for

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Speaker 1: for my own selfish reasons, I think just leaving it

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Speaker 1: as is, you prefer it like a legendary thing that

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Speaker 1: happened a long time ago. It's just it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: more fun than revisiting it. Yeah, I just I feel

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Speaker 1: that I think about Barry so much, and that we

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Speaker 1: talked about him so much that we should give him

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Speaker 1: a chance, at least a chance come back on and

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Speaker 1: talk for a brief time at least about what happened

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Speaker 1: and all the things that have occurred since. And so

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Speaker 1: that's what we're gonna do. Um and we're all we

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Speaker 1: filled our filver cup with a beautiful orange element salt recharge,

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna work our way through this together. And

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Speaker 1: so we will call Barry. We're gonna give Barry call

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Speaker 1: in just a moment. But before we do that, I

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Speaker 1: believe this episode six, season two not so sharp moments,

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Speaker 1: play the jingo phill not so sharp home, and you

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Speaker 1: don't have to hop, so you don't have to be

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Speaker 1: all right. Here we are. I like seeing that jingle

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Speaker 1: and asleep Worksharps announce for sure a moment episode six,

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Speaker 1: Here we go. PJ writes in he said, since you're

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Speaker 1: not gonna get my name right, I'll go ahead and

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Speaker 1: do the thing you like. P J is pronounced p J.

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Speaker 1: Weader hold. If my name and owned is not enough

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Speaker 1: to get on the podcast, I have two stories to

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Speaker 1: share that happened in the same week. So here we go,

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Speaker 1: Philip PJ. Weiterer hold. We've since moved, but this takes

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Speaker 1: place in rural Pike County, Ohio. Living there came with

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Speaker 1: some things I liked and some things I was less

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Speaker 1: fond of. One of those things I was less fond

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Speaker 1: of was rats. There's no fear of them, just a

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Speaker 1: general dislike for their droppings being everywhere. It would seem

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Speaker 1: they have the same aversion to pooping outside as philled does.

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Speaker 1: They would poop anywhere the livestock feed was not to

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Speaker 1: mention they'd eat the feed too needlessly to say they

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Speaker 1: needed to go. After trying traps unsuccessfully, we moved to

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Speaker 1: bait stations, which worked wonderfully. The only problem was they

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Speaker 1: would get some of the poison and then wandered deliriously

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Speaker 1: around the barn. Even though they were rats, I still

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Speaker 1: felt the need to end their suffering. Long story short,

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Speaker 1: This leads me to getting Grandpaul's twenty two pistol and

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Speaker 1: patrolling the barn any chance. I got one warm, dark

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Speaker 1: July night, well after the dew had set in, the

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Speaker 1: bedtime stories read and the kiddos were nestled under their blankets.

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Speaker 1: I loaded the old six shooter donned ahead lamp and

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Speaker 1: made my way to the barn. As this was not

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Speaker 1: my first trip, and occasionally I had happened a surprise

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Speaker 1: and unsuspecting rat. This was a shoes off situation. As

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Speaker 1: Remy Warren puts a nice reference, I approach light off

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Speaker 1: quiet as a mouse slipping through the wet yard, as

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Speaker 1: if a white tail was bedded just out of sight.

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Speaker 1: I could hear them rummaging around the walls, but spotted none,

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Speaker 1: even though I searched diligently. Moments passed as I stood

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Speaker 1: motionallely searching for a silhouette to no avail, feeling defeat,

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Speaker 1: slinking closer and closer. By the second. I decided to

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Speaker 1: get more proactive. Switching headlamp on brought more certainty that

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Speaker 1: I was going to head in without seeing a single rat.

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Speaker 1: It seemed as though they were taunting me with their

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Speaker 1: menacing squeaks and ominous scratches behind the kickboards. That's when

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Speaker 1: I decided enough was enough. I decided I had moved

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Speaker 1: the feed barrel, allowing me to crouch down near the wall,

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Speaker 1: laying my face against the cool condensating metal, straining to

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Speaker 1: peer down the narrow gap between the boards. What do

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Speaker 1: you think this is going, Phil, I have no idea.

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Speaker 1: Please continue. I was thinking like a rat attack. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he's definitely setting it up with a lot of attention here.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of good storytelling. Well well done, PJ.

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Speaker 1: To my amazement, there were sixteen beaty little eyes glowing

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Speaker 1: in the light, busily milling about their business. I had

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Speaker 1: made my mind up, headed to the house for ion

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Speaker 1: ear protection, and swapped the long rifle out for a

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Speaker 1: rat shot. I was walking with a purpose and a

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Speaker 1: confidence that should have been a red flag. Having thoroughly

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Speaker 1: soaked my feet in the dewy grass, I neared the

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Speaker 1: barn once again, contorting carefully to a position that would

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Speaker 1: allow me to hopefully get more than one rat with

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Speaker 1: one shot. I slowly, gently and quietly placed my bearded

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Speaker 1: cheek on the cold, damp metal wall. That's when it

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Speaker 1: struck me, that exact moment, in my confidence, at certainty,

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Speaker 1: I had missed the steady tick tick tick of the

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Speaker 1: electric fence controller. There it is. It was borrowed from

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Speaker 1: my late grandfather and had enclosed sixty years before, powering

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Speaker 1: my little two acre pasture. At the time, having touched

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Speaker 1: both the ground and line side. The electric fence controller

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Speaker 1: delivered quite a solid, jolting shock. Everything went black for

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Speaker 1: what felt like half of a second. Presumably the impact

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Speaker 1: of my knee hitting the dusty ground jolted me awake.

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Speaker 1: It truly confused intosorient me like never before, left me

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Speaker 1: kneeling there pondering what had happened, slowly coming to my senses,

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Speaker 1: my ear muff laying on the ground, the single six

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Speaker 1: still griped tightly in my hand. The feeling that I

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Speaker 1: had been kicked by my horse in the shoulder all

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Speaker 1: seemed to pale to the strong metallic taste in my mouth,

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Speaker 1: the electric fence controller laughing at me from my dreamy

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Speaker 1: certainty tick tick. After gathering myself and making it to

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Speaker 1: my house, my suspicion was confirmed by two red marks

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Speaker 1: on my shoulder and experience I planned to avoid the

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Speaker 1: rest of my life. P J. Phil play the jingle

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Speaker 1: word not so sharp moment, So you don't have all right?

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Speaker 1: P J. Your son of a b you're you're not

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Speaker 1: so sure? Mom is gonna get you a field sharpener

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Speaker 1: from our friends at work. Sharp. If you get some time,

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Speaker 1: go over their YouTube page. They got some kick ass

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Speaker 1: sharpening tips for you over there. So thanks to work sharp,

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Speaker 1: Thanks to you, p J. Phil commentary ranks top ten.

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Speaker 1: Not even close. Good storytelling. I mean we I don't

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Speaker 1: think we've we've had an electricity story yet. That's new.

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Speaker 1: That's new. Not giving a lot of credit there, PJ.

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Speaker 1: I felt like that was some of the best build storytelling.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the payoff wasn't there. He didn't get attacked,

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Speaker 1: but like I was hoping he would get it as

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Speaker 1: sensational as a as shifting your pants. No, no, but

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Speaker 1: it's still not sharp, but not very good but all

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Speaker 1: PJ and very good writing. So for that, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: win that prize and hopefully if you ever do back

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Speaker 1: to Plake County, there's less rats. All right now, ready, Phil,

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Speaker 1: let's do it. We're gonna come up, Barrycake, Gilbert. Here

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Speaker 1: we go, Berry. How are you, sir? Doing okay? Enjoying

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Speaker 1: summer isolated pair on an island, which is kind of nice.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing a lot of swimming and sailing. So you

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Speaker 1: tell me, people, tell us how the pandemic has been,

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Speaker 1: how the last few months has been for you and

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Speaker 1: your family up there? Oh? Pretty good. Actually, we're at

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Speaker 1: the low end of the of the pandemic. Everybody's going

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Speaker 1: around with masks on and including going on our ferry

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Speaker 1: or island. But I don't know anybody that's been positive

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Speaker 1: how things are. I noticed Montana's in pretty good shape

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Speaker 1: and going down to Yeah, it's been good. Were We

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Speaker 1: were in the office for a while and then I

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Speaker 1: got shuffled out because things are on the rise. But

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Speaker 1: now it seems like things are leveling out. So, um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we feel good in Montana, Phil, you feel pretty good.

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Speaker 1: We got fill our engineer here. Say hi, Say hi

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Speaker 1: to Barry hey Berry. As it going, Yeah, I m hi.

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Speaker 1: I Yeah, it's definitely. It's good to see a lot

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Speaker 1: of people out out in masks around here. And um,

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Speaker 1: it's a little less anxious than it used to be,

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Speaker 1: which I think is good. People are just just moving

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Speaker 1: moving on with their lives like they have to. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: the border dam closed to stopped all chances of me

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Speaker 1: going to Montana. I like to get down the Yellowstone,

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Speaker 1: you know. I got a lot of friends hound that way.

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Speaker 1: But well we can fly and if I want to

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Speaker 1: go to Ottawa and fly to Bozeman, I can do that.

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Speaker 1: But I'm I'm not sure, I'll get back into Canada. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we've had a few people come down from Canada, but

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Speaker 1: it's a sketchy experience, one that you really want to

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Speaker 1: have to come to Montana for. So we all, we

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Speaker 1: definitely understand that. Well, we're glad we got you, man um.

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Speaker 1: As as I was saying over email, we there. There's

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Speaker 1: there's not been a conversation that we've had on this show,

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Speaker 1: and we've had hundreds, I mean hundreds of conversations over

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Speaker 1: time that got as much commentary, as much conversation going

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Speaker 1: as what we called a contentious interview with you back

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Speaker 1: last year, and we talked about you all the time,

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Speaker 1: you know, we it's it's such a the thing that

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Speaker 1: we talked about, predation and bears is such an important thing.

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Speaker 1: We've been talking to a lot of individuals about it.

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Speaker 1: Um But also I think just how you know, what

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Speaker 1: was said, how it was said, how everything ended up,

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Speaker 1: everybody had a reaction to it, and so time has past,

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Speaker 1: time has passed, and I all I wanted to do

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Speaker 1: is have you on and chat about you know, what

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Speaker 1: had happened. And yeah, I guess my first question is

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Speaker 1: what was after you came in and we did the interview.

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Speaker 1: What happened in your world after we aired that thing?

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Speaker 1: Uh not, not a whole lot. I had a couple

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Speaker 1: of trolls that went on Amazon and duck shit on

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Speaker 1: my book without you know, having seen it at all.

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Speaker 1: They clearly were offended by me. One of the guys said,

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Speaker 1: you know, I was old man that didn't get enough

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Speaker 1: attention and I wanted more attention. And he said, you

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Speaker 1: can believe this, he said, so we get it. You

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Speaker 1: had a bad day, well, ship, I had a bad

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Speaker 1: life after that bear nailed me and I had two

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Speaker 1: months in the hospital on my back, so it was

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Speaker 1: a little more in the bad day. But you know,

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Speaker 1: I can see why people get cranked up. My My

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Speaker 1: knowledge is limited to, you know, observing bears. I've had

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Speaker 1: thousands of hours of doing it, and I challenge anybody

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Speaker 1: that wants to take me on, say they've done more

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Speaker 1: watching of theirs. But I'm kind of like an anthropologist

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Speaker 1: watching a culture do its thing. So when it comes

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Speaker 1: to you know, their attacks and on an expert when

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Speaker 1: it comes to population biology and modeling and how many

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Speaker 1: bears there are, Uh, I only know what I read

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Speaker 1: and and what's in the press. You know, I try

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Speaker 1: to follow the Grizzly Bear Advisory Committee that your governor

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Speaker 1: put up, but apparently it hasn't come out with any recommendationship.

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Speaker 1: But they've got eighteen people on there. I imagine they

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Speaker 1: got twenty two opinions. That's well, That's the beautiful thing

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Speaker 1: about what we talked about is that it it does

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Speaker 1: bring in so many different opinions. We went recently and

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Speaker 1: visited Yellowstone Park National Park and we tracked some mountain

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Speaker 1: lions with a predator biologist by the name of Dr

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Speaker 1: Daniel Staylor. His perspective was was a beautiful one to

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Speaker 1: very tangible one. We just had Dr Vilarious Guist on

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Speaker 1: last episode talked to him about his perspective. So we've

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Speaker 1: been just trying to mind as many of these perspectives

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Speaker 1: as we can, and they're just I think it all

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Speaker 1: shows that this is a complex issue. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: going on, and it really gets people's tackles up. And

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Speaker 1: we've also I'll tell you, Barry had a neurologist on

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Speaker 1: neuroscientist on and talked about kind of you know, our

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Speaker 1: brains are the psychology of why some people really love

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Speaker 1: predators or love grizzly berries particularly, and why some people

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Speaker 1: have of such a negative reaction to them. And so

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Speaker 1: it's been interesting to learn over time how these things

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Speaker 1: come about. So it's it's good to do that. Do

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Speaker 1: you do you feel like the sociology of people's values

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Speaker 1: and whether they're going to change? You know, I try

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Speaker 1: pretty much. I've read enough to stay away from that

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Speaker 1: because I don't have any illusions about our delusions about

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Speaker 1: changing people's mo lines. I just had my experience, and

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Speaker 1: that's what my book was about, my thirty five or

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Speaker 1: forty years experience with theirs. And at the end I

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Speaker 1: try to take on some of politics and management because

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Speaker 1: I'm offended that the conservation of theirs gets a dollar

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Speaker 1: sign on it and the bears generally lose. But that's uh,

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Speaker 1: that's just something that I learned from experience in a

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Speaker 1: national park. We all think that national parks are total

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Speaker 1: protection for bears, but they're not protected from fast vehicles

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Speaker 1: or trains in Northern and Montana and a whole bunch

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Speaker 1: of things. In fact, if you look at national parks,

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Speaker 1: I looked at them and Jasper in Canada at one time,

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Speaker 1: and and Yellowstone and the death of bears from humans

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Speaker 1: is equivalent to a hunting season. I mean, it's not

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Speaker 1: like they're totally put tect it. And the same goes

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Speaker 1: for wolves in UH in Denali Park. And mentioned this

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Speaker 1: in my book that one of the research bile is

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Speaker 1: just there back in the guess was in the seventies

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Speaker 1: told me every wolf pack in Denali Park UH is

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Speaker 1: subjected to trapping because they reigned so widely, you know,

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Speaker 1: and when they go outside the park, of course they

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Speaker 1: get nailed. So so much for conservational wolves. Yeah, we

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Speaker 1: were talking to Dr Geiss last week. We talked a little.

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Speaker 1: He his his ideas, Like the two competing ideas he

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Speaker 1: presented were this idea of protectionism and you know that

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Speaker 1: was connected to environmentalism, and then this idea of intelligent

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Speaker 1: intervention on the wildlife management side, which which meant hunting

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Speaker 1: other tools for managing predator populations. Be interested to hear you,

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Speaker 1: you know what you think about that as we because I,

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Speaker 1: like I said, we've don four or five shows or

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Speaker 1: I've tried to present as many varying opinions. We have

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Speaker 1: Chris Derriman later who also who tends to be on

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Speaker 1: your side of things when it comes to bears. But

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Speaker 1: can you do you have any thoughts about this protectionism

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Speaker 1: versus intelligent intervention. Oh? Yeah. One of the one of

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Speaker 1: the conundrums I think about is why we went some

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Speaker 1: endangered status to desire to have a hunting season in

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Speaker 1: the three three states around Yellowstone. It just seems to

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Speaker 1: me a transition. Once you've got to the number small

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Speaker 1: as it is, say seven D eight hundred, six hundred bears,

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden you have a hunting season on them.

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Speaker 1: I mean, my impression from the media was that people

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Speaker 1: couldn't wait to kill them, whether it's by hunting or

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Speaker 1: let the ranchers nail them or shoot them from helicopters.

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Speaker 1: So I I don't have much truck with trophy hunting.

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Speaker 1: It isn't a bear, isn't something to eat. Although British

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Speaker 1: column they had tried to have a season in which

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Speaker 1: you could kill a grizzly bear if you took the

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Speaker 1: meat home, and to me, that's a back door approach

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Speaker 1: to conservation. I just think there's so much interest. You know,

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Speaker 1: Yellowstone is the only place that people go to observed.

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Speaker 1: There's photographs and all those sort of things, you know,

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Speaker 1: Teeton Park and then you go up the coast of

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Speaker 1: British Columbia. There are thirty businesses on the coast alone

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Speaker 1: that emphasize they're viewing as part of their trips, whether

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Speaker 1: whale watching or you know, narine mammals in general. So

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Speaker 1: I could see going to uh they're viewing. Now it's

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Speaker 1: trickier and rockies. You have to find a you know,

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Speaker 1: a burn with a big berry patch where theres are concentrating.

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Speaker 1: If you're trying to run a business taking people to

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Speaker 1: see grizzly there's uh, it's tough to go and say

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Speaker 1: South June, we're gonna go and look at grizzly bears.

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Speaker 1: Even in Yellowstone. That doesn't work. Yeah, that's the that's

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Speaker 1: the problem with a wild viewing in general. They don't

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Speaker 1: they necessarily know they're being viewed or that somebody wants

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Speaker 1: to view them. Can I ask you? Um? Another thing

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Speaker 1: that happened from the last show is people want to

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Speaker 1: jump to the conclusion that you're fully anti hunting, that

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Speaker 1: all hunting in your mind doesn't work. And you kind

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Speaker 1: of describe your your thoughts on maybe unglet hunting, hunting

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Speaker 1: of deer and elk, and then hunting of a grizzly bear,

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Speaker 1: Like what you just kind of throw that out there

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Speaker 1: for everybody. Oh, I'm not anti hunting at all. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I taught wildlife management. I wouldn't have the job if

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Speaker 1: I was andy hunting. I think half my students had

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Speaker 1: rifles in their half tons. And one guy asked me

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Speaker 1: we were going to Yellowstone in the winter. He says,

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Speaker 1: is okay, if I bring my thirty thirty and my

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Speaker 1: half tongue, I might see a deer on the way.

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Speaker 1: I said, I don't think that's going to work. But

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Speaker 1: uh no, I think hunting is important to help. Dear

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Speaker 1: you name the caraboo moose. That that gets a lot

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Speaker 1: of people, uh interested in wildlife management. It's what how

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Speaker 1: our country started. You know. Lewis and Clark shot just

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Speaker 1: just under over a thousand antelope crossing a crossing the country,

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Speaker 1: so they couldn't have made it without granted that isn't

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Speaker 1: permitted hunting, but they lived off the land. And there's

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Speaker 1: still people in Alaska that basically they're only protein is

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Speaker 1: what they shoot or trapped or whatever. So I'm not

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Speaker 1: I think hunting um pray ungulus um is uh absolutely

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Speaker 1: traditional and I have nothing against it. When it comes

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Speaker 1: to carnivores, I sometimes wonder h people with high powered

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Speaker 1: rifles that sit in trees over salmon streams and shoot

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Speaker 1: there called hundred yards. My daughter read something in my

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Speaker 1: book and she says that it sounds like a search

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Speaker 1: and destroying mission because the hunter isn't risking anything by

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Speaker 1: sitting in a tree with a guide and some of them.

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Speaker 1: If the hunters jumping, the guide will shoot the there.

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Speaker 1: So I just don't see shooting grizzly there or either

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Speaker 1: the telt or skull if you can keep the skull.

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Speaker 1: And my impression is both people don't have much use

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Speaker 1: for learning about the bears, that is following and photographing

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Speaker 1: them and spending time observing them they want to and

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Speaker 1: the coast of DC, you know, they flying in an aircraft.

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Speaker 1: The guide out that takes them up for the halftime

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Speaker 1: on a logging road, takes him up to the stand

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Speaker 1: and if they're lucky, they can shoot it there and

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Speaker 1: he can be back watching potball and drinking there in

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Speaker 1: the afternoon. Now that's hardly a wilderness trip. Hunting there

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Speaker 1: is just the a matter of going out for two

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Speaker 1: weeks and doing a lot of trumping up and down

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Speaker 1: mountains or up and down streams, whatever it is. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: here where I'm going, it's the technology that it takes

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Speaker 1: a bit out of the Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: that's what we and we talked about that those ethics

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Speaker 1: a lot here, fair chase, fair kill, different ideas I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, especially in that last numb you too, people

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Speaker 1: take umbrage to this idea that yeah, we would generalize

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Speaker 1: hunters or use a straw man of Yeah, maybe there

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Speaker 1: there are plenty of asshole hunters out there. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: plenty of people that do it. Umah. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I've run into some people that in hunting camp where

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Speaker 1: I I wasn't necessarily didn't necessarily feel like they had

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Speaker 1: the same value system as I do. And you know,

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Speaker 1: so there's no one here that's gonna say that it's

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Speaker 1: a completely pure thing. But at the same time, those

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Speaker 1: examples I feel are you know, rare and extreme, but

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Speaker 1: they do happen, and so that's that's the balance. I

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Speaker 1: think people that listen to the podcast would like to

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Speaker 1: hear like, hey, look, conservation is complicated. Um let's talk

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Speaker 1: about what what are the examples of this where this

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Speaker 1: hunt works from a conservation element, and then you can

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Speaker 1: boil down kind of like the personal motivation, because that's

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Speaker 1: so varied and so impossible to nail down. Yeah, well

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Speaker 1: the gold standard is fair chase. Right, you put out

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Speaker 1: some effort, you take some risk yourself, uh to what

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Speaker 1: you're hunting. Uh. Now, there isn't too much risk to

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Speaker 1: a person at you're hunting h antilope on the prairies,

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Speaker 1: wrong aren't, but there's still you have to know a

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Speaker 1: lot about the animal to get up on a prong

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Speaker 1: born and even if you're shoot her in the distance,

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Speaker 1: it takes a whole lot of stocking to get within range.

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Speaker 1: And you know, the nonfair chase. So they are the

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Speaker 1: jerks that go out and see a herd of elk

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Speaker 1: and start, uh you know, flock hunting or herd hunting.

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Speaker 1: They just fire lead into the middle of a bunch

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Speaker 1: of alk and hope that something clicks. To me, that's uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's a matter of ethics and morality. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's not something we except or promote here

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Speaker 1: and and again I always people say those things to me.

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Speaker 1: I've had other I had a vegan my friend, a

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Speaker 1: vegan philosopher by the name of Robert C. Jones and

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Speaker 1: he said, well, you're pretty thoughtful hunter. You feel like

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Speaker 1: that's a rarity or the exception. I said, there's no

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Speaker 1: way for for me to know. But I assume if

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Speaker 1: I was a hardcore camper and somebody said, well, campers litter,

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Speaker 1: I'd be like, yeah, those are not my campers. Those

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Speaker 1: are you know, if there's somebody who's doing something to

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Speaker 1: egal or extremely unethical, um, you know, no hunter or

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Speaker 1: no hunting organization would would promote or accept that. So

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Speaker 1: it's a that's a tough thing. I think that's a

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Speaker 1: tough thing for listeners of this show to here because

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Speaker 1: we all know that that's that's just not a great

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Speaker 1: thing reaction to received. Was that on your blog or

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Speaker 1: was that just people calling you and you didn't record it.

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Speaker 1: I had a look at the number of your blog

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Speaker 1: sites and went on meat Eater, and I couldn't find

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Speaker 1: any commentary about Well, the post interview. I want to

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Speaker 1: go over that a little bit. But the post on

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Speaker 1: the instagram has hundred three or four hundred comments. Um,

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Speaker 1: not that we need to revisit that right now. The

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Speaker 1: post had a bunch of comments, and we get emails

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Speaker 1: all the time um about you know, emails of the

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Speaker 1: place where I like to get most of my commentary

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Speaker 1: because it seems to be the most rational, the most

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Speaker 1: less free thumbing it as it would be a commentary online.

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Speaker 1: But it was one of like that converse Asian. I

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Speaker 1: think it was because of the contentious nature of it,

426
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 1: because you know, there was upset moments in it. I

427
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 1: think that's what drew people in. But like I said,

428
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: the reason number one you said in this show, I

429
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: don't know if you remember this, you said that you

430
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: didn't get a hat. Remember that you didn't get it.

431
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 1: You didn't get a hat for him. So I'm gonna

432
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: send you. Me and Phil are gonna Me and Phil

433
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 1: are going to sign a hat and send you a

434
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: hat because we're burying the damn hatchet. Burry Gilbert and

435
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:29,199
Speaker 1: send me the recipe for the SALTI Gilbert, Yes, and

436
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 1: we're gonna send you that of that. But I should

437
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 1: have cooled my jets earlier on. I think what happened

438
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: with me is I I liked your set up there.

439
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 1: I talked to the gals going in the front door,

440
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: and I thought this wn't be really neat to talk

441
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 1: about my book and some of the issues in my book,

442
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: and somehow we got off the rail in fact, hit

443
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 1: the third rail, it seems, and I just got tissed

444
00:26:55,160 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: and I apologized for that. But there we hatch is buried.

445
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 1: No need to apologize it. I think it in the end,

446
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,199
Speaker 1: like in the end for me as I thought about that,

447
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: and I said, we we talked about you a lot

448
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 1: on this show. We we talk about you know, those moments,

449
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 1: and it's it's essential to learn from them, and it's

450
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: essential to say, Okay, what happened there? Was it? Was it?

451
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: The conversation? Was it? Kind of just did it happen randomly?

452
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 1: How can we make sure that when we have a disagreement,

453
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 1: a conversation where we have we know we're going to disagree,

454
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 1: that we can work through and maybe we don't even

455
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 1: find common ground, but maybe we still can can work

456
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: through those you know, the feelings and emotions and try

457
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 1: to get people to a point where some objective reasoning

458
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,640
Speaker 1: happened and people can walk away. No, and like there

459
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 1: there can be a disagreement where people say we're just

460
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: never going to agree on this, and we can move

461
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 1: on from it and still learn something or other. Um well,

462
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: and And the other point that I try to maake

463
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: with people is that your conversation has to be as

464
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: complex as the issue is. A lot of people want

465
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: to simplify it, and uh, you know, speaking of all guys,

466
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 1: he has a a straightforward, uh wildlife management model that

467
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 1: he likes to work everything. And to me, that's a

468
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 1: little too simple. Now. It works for vow because he's

469
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: always been a a goat and sheep and elk hunter.

470
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: He knows a lot about them, these written books on

471
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 1: pronghorn and elk and MUI's But I just think I

472
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 1: have a problem with that model being applied to all

473
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: the carnivores. We if this isn't too harsh a statement,

474
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: we have the war going on against carnivores and some

475
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: people anyway you kill them, Like look at Alaska now

476
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: there they've just decided that they want to get rid

477
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: of more carnivores with the wrong notion that they're going

478
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: to get more caribou and those hunting out of that,

479
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: and that has both scientific basis whatsoever. I think, um

480
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: that kind of thinking by the board of game. And

481
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 1: these aren't trolls, you know, these are people that clearly

482
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: they're political, but they're responding, I think to the majority

483
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: of hunters who believe that if you have every berryer kill,

484
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 1: you saved all of game that they're going to eat.

485
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: And h we tried that with salmon at one time.

486
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: The first Clonedia government in the fifties have people with

487
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: high powered guns on government boats out shooting sea lions

488
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: because they believe the sea lions were reducing the salmon.

489
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: And of course it was over fishing and too many

490
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: canaries and all that, and they decimated the salmon for

491
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: a long time, but they decided to take it out

492
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: on the carnivore. Yeah, I think I think it's like

493
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: that's the key lines. I can remember the paper that

494
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: I read decades ago, and they didn't have salmon and

495
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: their guts at all or how that are a whole

496
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: bunch of fish that had no commercial value. So that

497
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 1: was almost hate the carnal bar or the flavor. Yeah,

498
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: we definitely we talked. I talked about that with val

499
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: guyst and some other things. And when we just this

500
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: thing came up and I like what you said about

501
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: like the conversation has to be as complex as a

502
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: topic and that that just goes a show. I mean

503
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 1: something that I've learned through talking to people on all

504
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 1: sides of this issue is and you articulated, well, there

505
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: there's some people that there's a protectionist idea, and then

506
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: there's this idea that every for every wolf you kill,

507
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: every bear you kill, you're saving x number of unglids

508
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: or x number of deer and elk. And it's just

509
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 1: not that simple on either side. Um. You know, there's

510
00:30:55,680 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: there's cohabitation, there's population dynamics, there's so many things, and

511
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: so you know, luckily we can have these these conversations

512
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: that people can hear you know what essentially I think

513
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: is your view on one side maybe vows on another,

514
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: although both of your views I think have nuance to them.

515
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: So that's what I wanted to make sure that people

516
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 1: could hear from you again and we can laugh. Have

517
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: a salty Gilbert. Salty Yilbert. By the way, Phil, you

518
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: can attest, Phil can attest is delicious. I was skeptical

519
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: and I was I was proven wrong. It is a

520
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: very tell berry. What what it's what's all about? Well,

521
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: it's it's it's got a it's got a packet of

522
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: of element hydration electrolyte drink mix to keep it to

523
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: keep you hydrated. Um, it's got some some hard seltzer

524
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: water uh and and and vodka and it's uh, it's

525
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: it's surprisingly balanced and smooth it is. But it is

526
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 1: smooth and salty, salty like you were last year. Delight.

527
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: So yes, we we hopefully we'll send you. We're gonna

528
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: send you some packets of Element, which title sponsors this program,

529
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: and uh, some Michael and stuff to celebrate in a hat.

530
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: So we're gonna all you gotta do, Barry, We're gonna

531
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: send all that stuff to you. All you have to

532
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: do is send me a picture of you wearing the

533
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 1: hat and drink in your salty Yielbert if you don't mind, Okay,

534
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: I'll do that for sure, so we can consider you

535
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 1: a copy. I don't have a copy here. No, you

536
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: brought one, but I think you took it with you.

537
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: You're mad at me. That was my day of condictiveness.

538
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: I guess I'll nail you one. That's beautiful. I will.

539
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 1: We'll trade you. I will. I'll get your address and

540
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: we will mail you a THHD care package. Uh, and

541
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: you mail me some books. Okay, all right, Barry. Getting

542
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: back to grizzly bears. Uh. In the last couple of

543
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: days on my thinking, Captain, I thought, you know, what

544
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: do you want to talk about? Do you want to

545
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: talk about their behavior with you? Dan and felt, let's

546
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: ignore the trolls and their values. But what I came

547
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: to think about was our relationship with theirs and the

548
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: relationship of theirs to their foods. Like the behavior theirs

549
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: on salmon streams is totally related to the surplus of food.

550
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: And the bears they're like black bears. I mean, they're

551
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: real pussycats. Uh. I almost stepped on a seven pounder

552
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: one day. I was moving too fast through books camp

553
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: and there jumps out and he looks at me and said,

554
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: like as to say, I thought we had an agreement.

555
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: You'd stay on your damn trails and you leave the

556
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: woods to us. And the thing could have a black

557
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 1: charge for me. It could have swatted at me. It

558
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: just jumped away, and it was a dominant nail. And

559
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: I thought, you know, there's gotta be a story there

560
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: when grizzly bears are super hungry or their jaws are

561
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 1: damaged and the real old like the one that killed Treadwell.

562
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: Tim Treadwell Um, that's a real exception in that country

563
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,280
Speaker 1: because all of those bears and Tim spent thirteen years

564
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: almost close enough the pet those coastal brown there, so

565
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:26,240
Speaker 1: are getting back the relationship. Our relationship to salmon bears

566
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 1: um is a function of the bears surplus of food

567
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,879
Speaker 1: that's available, and they don't even challenge each other. That's

568
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: like you and I with a room full of steaks.

569
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 1: I'm not going to fight you for a steak when

570
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: all I have to do is gobble arrest of them

571
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: around the room. So the bears are the same way

572
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:51,879
Speaker 1: and um our relationship to them in Yellowstone, of course,

573
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: it's very different there North food stressed, there likely to

574
00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: be food condition if we habituate them too much. Uh.

575
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: Food conditioning is never a problem on salmon streams. I've

576
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: had watch situations where a person illegally had food in

577
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,280
Speaker 1: attack and that they're got to it on the stream.

578
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 1: It didn't bother with the food at all. Uh, they're

579
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 1: not interested in our food if they've got a you know,

580
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 1: natural food. But that isn't true of you know, send

581
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 1: me started there and Glacier Park or Yellowstone or Teeton

582
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 1: or anything like that there. If they're super hungry. You

583
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: better watch out because they're going to come as close

584
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: as they can to get bellyfall. You know, it's it's

585
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: either you steal food or you die. It's a cohabitation

586
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,720
Speaker 1: thing to write garbage cans and rural areas where bears

587
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 1: don't have a lot of food. You know, there's lots

588
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: of examples even here in Montana of those type of things. Um. Well,

589
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: and it's the same with raccoons. If you want a

590
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: problem in some city, ease, just leave some good old

591
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 1: fashioned garbage around. Perfect. Let me ask you, let me

592
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: say this question is popped in my mind. Um and

593
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: we gotta run here. Some make us our last last

594
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 1: question because I tried to narrow narrow down where you know,

595
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: where in the spectrum we are in terms of of

596
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: grizzly bears and and if how the win they're killed,

597
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: If if we ate grizzly bears, would that change I'm

598
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: not saying this is a fully hypothetical, but if we

599
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 1: ate grizzly bears after we hunted them, would that change

600
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: your feelings at all? Well? Uh, you might convince me

601
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 1: if the person needed the meat to feed his family

602
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: or whatever. It gets back to basic motivations. Why do

603
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 1: you why do you want to shoot an animal like that?

604
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 1: And if somebody says to me, well, there's nothing else

605
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 1: in my area, and if I'm gonna put something in

606
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 1: the freezer from my family, I'll take it there. And

607
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of Native Americans, Native Canadians have

608
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,799
Speaker 1: done this in the past, but by and large, UM,

609
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 1: I would say it's unlikely that that's that's going to occur. Um.

610
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: I guess I'm saying I don't. I don't agree with

611
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: that because I don't think it's very likely. I'm not

612
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 1: objecting because people don't eat them there. That's what I

613
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 1: was asking. I was asking in the backwards way. But yeah,

614
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 1: I think that's what If we can understand again, understand

615
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: each other's objections to the activity, then we can start

616
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: to suss out ways where maybe we could find common ground.

617
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 1: And I imagine you would agree that conservation and wildlife

618
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 1: management is finding this common ground because there are these

619
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: divergent views that aren't going to go away, and finding

620
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: some way to come in the middle is, you know,

621
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 1: is one of the you know, I look there and

622
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 1: know theirs and I think of them as a big

623
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 1: dog they're closely related to dogs, and we don't yet

624
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 1: shoot dogs to eat them. Now they do in Asian countries.

625
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 1: Dog is a delicacy, and God knows, Lewis and Clark

626
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 1: ate a few dogs on their way to and horses.

627
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 1: Uh but uh, I just I know so much about

628
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 1: bears and their culture that I don't think of them

629
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: as a target. I just think there's so much that

630
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 1: we haven't learned. Now. I'm not trying to say that,

631
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: you know, I'm the advanced thought process on this, but

632
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 1: there we come to realize that that killer whales are

633
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 1: variable and have cultures around the world, that they've tracked

634
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: their vocalizations, and there are numbers a species. Of course,

635
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: chimpanzee's with Jane Goodall is a good example too. We

636
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 1: used to shoot mountain gorillas as a sport, and so

637
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: once we uh, you know, George Shower studied mountain girls

638
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 1: and found it a lot about them, and all of

639
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: a sudden, nobody wants to kill him anymore, except you know,

640
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:19,399
Speaker 1: starving vocals. Well, Barry, we're gonna leave. We're gonna leave

641
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 1: it right there. We can talk about this for hours

642
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: and hours, as I know we could, but I'm over. Moreover,

643
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: I'm glad that we have buried the hatchet. You're gonna

644
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 1: get a hat a salty Gilbert recipe mix from us,

645
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 1: and we hope, we hope you guys stay well up there.

646
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: I'm very impressed that you contacted me again, and I'm

647
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: glad we did this. So let's do it again in

648
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,760
Speaker 1: a couple of months. Hell yeah, let's do it again.

649
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: And m hey, you stay well and best your family

650
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 1: and your wife up there, and and we'll talk little soon.

651
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 1: Look for that package in the mail. Thanks a lot,

652
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 1: all right, thank you? All right, Phil, that was Barry Gilbert.

653
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: That was cool man, Yeah it was you feel better now, yes, yeah,

654
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:06,799
Speaker 1: I think it was worth it. Catharsis yeah. And and

655
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 1: Barry still, you know, hopefully listen to this. I say,

656
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: Barry still has some pretty extreme views, and he still

657
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,720
Speaker 1: has kind of the hunting straw man in his mind

658
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 1: that goes out and wacks big animals for pleasure and

659
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: those types of things. Um, that's that's kind of that's

660
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 1: the angle that he comes at it with. And that's

661
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: something that even in my previous years I probably wouldn't

662
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 1: wanted to hear. But I feel like we got to

663
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 1: hear those things. We got to hear the way that

664
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: people see us, and that you can either get mad

665
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 1: at Barry or you can say, I'm gonna I'm gonna

666
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: do my best to be as ethical as possible and

667
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 1: and share those ethics and share that conversation with everybody

668
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: that I can. Yeah, prove them wrong, prove them wrong.

669
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: Another guy, Chris DARRENMNT. You're about to listen to Chris.

670
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 1: It's it's an interesting here is we kind of go

671
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 1: through the different viewpoints as I were talking to Barry.

672
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 1: It's interesting. Chris is an inner disciplinary conservation scientists and

673
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 1: he's done a lot of things. Um, and he applies

674
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 1: he takes scientific tools and applies it to natural and

675
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 1: social elements within conservation. And he has he was part

676
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,320
Speaker 1: of a really cool paper about why people hunt, what

677
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: the purposes? He kind of lined it up his achievement.

678
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,439
Speaker 1: But then he also has some views, some interesting views

679
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: on grizzly bears and hunting them and hunting predators, just

680
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: like our friend Dr Barry Gilbert, and so I wanted

681
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 1: to pair those two things together. Let you listen to him. Um,

682
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 1: he's from Canada, and so hey, another polite Canadian to

683
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: disagree with Enjoy Chris, Dear mont Chris, how are you, sir?

684
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: And well Ben, how are you doing? Oh? I'm doing

685
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: just fine out here in Montana. We've got a little

686
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 1: we've had a little smoke rolling from a local fire.

687
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: But how's it up your way? It's actually rainy, foggy,

688
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: kind of west host fall weather, which is actually nice.

689
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 1: They'll break from from the sun for a bit. Yeah,

690
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 1: we'll take it. We'll take it all day. Well, we

691
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 1: have a only about an hour ago, so we'll jump

692
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 1: right into what we want to talk about and um

693
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: what what what we've connected on previously. I think before

694
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: we do anything, we just gotta tell people a little

695
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 1: bit about what you do and how you're producing some

696
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 1: of the papers will talk about and some of the

697
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:30,240
Speaker 1: work that is impactful for thinking about hunting and its motivations. Sure, yeah,

698
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: so hit us up with with what you do and

699
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 1: what it all means. Because I described, you know, your

700
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 1: job title, but I don't think that does does it

701
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: quite justice? Sure? Yeah, yeah, Well, I describe myself as

702
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 1: uh interdisciplinary conservation scientists. That is to say, you know,

703
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: even though I'm trained as a as a biologist and

704
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: specifically as an evolutionary ecologist, I draw on other disciplines

705
00:42:55,560 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 1: like geography, UH, philosophy, computer so science, some mathematics, um,

706
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 1: you name it. Whatever the tools are required, my students

707
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,359
Speaker 1: and I tend to use and uh. We do a

708
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 1: lot of applied work, although some of what we do

709
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: is is kind of interest and to test important theory

710
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: and ecology or revolution. Uh. And we often, but not always,

711
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 1: work in the wildlife systems. UM. And we recognize that

712
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 1: that it's hard to to learn about a wildlife system

713
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 1: without understanding that people involved in that system. And you

714
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 1: know that people could be you know, hunters, as will

715
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 1: probably talk about today, no doubt or uh. And by

716
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 1: that I mean kind of hunters, maybe like you and I,

717
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 1: you know, European descent in North America. UM. But often

718
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: our work involves indigenous people as as partners and people

719
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 1: that have been you know, hunting and fishing the animals

720
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:04,479
Speaker 1: we care about for you know millennia. So um, jack

721
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 1: of all trades, probably master of none. Um. But my

722
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: students and I tend to do some pretty interesting work

723
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,720
Speaker 1: that's mostly a pot Yeah. When you talk about apply,

724
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 1: can you just kind of describe We'll talk about a

725
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 1: paper that kind of connected me to you. But then

726
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: I've learned a lot more. I've had even had listeners

727
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 1: right in about you before before the I think it

728
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 1: was the first time we had listeners right in about

729
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 1: you before we aired thing. Um, how did I think

730
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,399
Speaker 1: I made? I made a comment on Instagram that people

731
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 1: are saying, let's have some varied views on this is

732
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 1: after we talked last week. As I was just telling

733
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 1: you to dr religious guys, and we had some listeners

734
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: writing in like let's have some various views. I said, well,

735
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,359
Speaker 1: next week we're gonna have Chris darmont On and and um,

736
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 1: I got got a couple of emails with people that

737
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: knew your work and we're interested in this. Um both agree,

738
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: both agreed and disagreed with you, which I think makes

739
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: this is why we're here. So what makes this interesting? Um?

740
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 1: When I first I just read online hunting forums identify

741
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 1: achievement as prominent among multiple satisfactions. As a paper that

742
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 1: I that I came across the line. And how do

743
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 1: you create a paper like this? What is the process

744
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 1: that goes into uh this work? And how would you

745
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 1: describe you know, the overall output? Sure, yeah, well that

746
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 1: you know I do a few. Uh, I've done a

747
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: few papers with students, mostly undergrads actually, these wonderful young

748
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: honor students in this domain. And uh, where this work

749
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 1: started was for me kind of lurking on on hunting forums,

750
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,839
Speaker 1: mostly for my own interests because you know, as you know,

751
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 1: you can get a lot of good information about hunting, uh,

752
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 1: and you know associated you know, strategies and and you

753
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 1: know contexts and stories. And I became pretty pretty hooked

754
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 1: on it, uh maybe about ten years ago, kind of

755
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: especially learning about our black tail deer here, which are

756
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 1: as you probably know, kind of ghosts of the rainforest

757
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: and a real hard hunt. And so I was creeping

758
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 1: on those those online forums, and as I did it,

759
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 1: I became really fascinated in what hunters had to offer

760
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,959
Speaker 1: in terms of, you know, explaining not only their hunt,

761
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:27,320
Speaker 1: but you know, why they hunt, expressing what we referred

762
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 1: to as satisfactions from which we can infer motivation and

763
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 1: so on and so forth. And I thought, dang, there's

764
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 1: some good stuff here. And I was familiar with some

765
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 1: of the what we call human dimensions literature, uh, you know,

766
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 1: understanding you know, the social side of of hunting, and

767
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: I thought yeah, not many people have used this data

768
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:56,320
Speaker 1: source UM to ask questions like this, So, uh maybe

769
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 1: first papers about ten years ago, eight years ago maybe,

770
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 1: and we dove in it. It's been it's been pretty fun, right,

771
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: And do you find that there's it's the CD underbelly

772
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: of passage boards, or that there's or that there's a

773
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 1: mixed bag of individuals and perspectives there. Well, yeah, I

774
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 1: mean it's hard to fully assess how representative UM the

775
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:26,280
Speaker 1: participants on online hunting forums are compared to the broader

776
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,879
Speaker 1: hunting community. I mean, that's that's a that's a kind

777
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 1: of a prickly one statistically, and not a lot of

778
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 1: work has been done there, so there's probably you know,

779
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 1: a relatively modest bias in terms of who posts there

780
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 1: and what sort of material they post and what they

781
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 1: may express. So for what I mean by that is,

782
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 1: you might, for example, UM, fine, on average people that

783
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 1: are slightly more interested in expressing their opinions or knowledge

784
00:47:55,480 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 1: or you know, uh, interested in social media. Let's just

785
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: leave it at that. And then furthermore, knowing that they

786
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 1: have a broad audience, they may say things that that

787
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 1: they may not say another UM contexts you know, Uh

788
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 1: so there's clearly some biases to the data source, but

789
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 1: when you compare it to the other major and kind

790
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 1: of more orthodox way to understand hunting motivations, and that

791
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:29,320
Speaker 1: is the hunter interview or hunter survey, which may be

792
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 1: more randomly distributed, but there may be a bias in

793
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,359
Speaker 1: terms of who responds. And there may also be an

794
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 1: important bias many people have thought about, and that is,

795
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: you know, what people choose to say to those who

796
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:48,799
Speaker 1: are interviewing them for fear of being judged um, and

797
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:52,760
Speaker 1: some of those inhibitions may fall away online as well,

798
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 1: as you know, online things happen. So so it was

799
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:59,359
Speaker 1: a new data new data source, maybe not a perfect one,

800
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 1: but a real in trusting one, and uh, it's been

801
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 1: a fertile ground to to learn a little more about

802
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 1: about um, the satisfactions hunters seek and the motivations underline them.

803
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 1: And I often linked them to a separate body literature

804
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 1: and a separate kind of a domain in which my

805
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 1: students and I work, and that's an evolutionary anthropology or

806
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 1: evolutionary ecology understanding the kind of deeper context of hunting well.

807
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 1: And this is this kind of the purpose of the show.

808
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 1: I mean, we we do a lot of things. We

809
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 1: have we we explore a lot of topics and we'll

810
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:42,919
Speaker 1: talk about some other things that other work that you've

811
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 1: done that I think is interesting and worth discussion. But

812
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 1: that is kind of is what we do here. We

813
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: want to look at individual as many individual wise as

814
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 1: we can. Why are you out there, what's your motivation?

815
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 1: And also seek to learn a little bit about you know,

816
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:00,319
Speaker 1: what our motivations are, what our ethics are. Well, we've

817
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:03,359
Speaker 1: even been we've even been discussing kind of the neurology

818
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 1: of predatory behavior and ans and humans there recently, So

819
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: that's something that we like, There's many angles to look at.

820
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:12,799
Speaker 1: As I'm sure you're well known now. But when we

821
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:16,359
Speaker 1: talk about um, what your paper talks about and and

822
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,240
Speaker 1: something we've talked about in previous episodes this this idea

823
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: of achievement, this idea that there is this achievement felt

824
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 1: by hunters, and all the hunters that are listening to

825
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,280
Speaker 1: this show have felt some sort of achievement. They've felt

826
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: some sorts as as you describe satisfaction from from many

827
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 1: money elements of hunting. UM, would you say that that

828
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,280
Speaker 1: when you guys looked at this you looked at UM

829
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: every every moment in the hunting spectrum, from you know,

830
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 1: being a family and friends to UM to the athletic

831
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 1: part of it to the actual killing and the eating.

832
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:54,760
Speaker 1: Or was there something that tended to be to stand

833
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 1: out or just like a full spectrum of the hunting experience. Yeah,

834
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:01,439
Speaker 1: you mentioned some important other uh context are you said

835
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: being with family and friends? So, so the the satisfactions

836
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 1: literature that's about as old as I am, you know,

837
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,319
Speaker 1: and it's it's fifth decade, they're forty five years old

838
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 1: or something identified the kind of three buckets that hunters

839
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,879
Speaker 1: look for, one of which is achievement, and a lot

840
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 1: of the early work thought you know, clearly this is

841
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 1: mostly about achievement, but as the literature progressed, we begin

842
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 1: began to understand that other things are important, and affiliation,

843
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 1: So they're all going to start with a So achievement,

844
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:37,319
Speaker 1: affiliation being being with your buddies or your your year

845
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 1: old man or your kids, for example. Um is is

846
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 1: the second one, and the third one is an appreciation.

847
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:46,879
Speaker 1: You know what we feel, you know, own are out

848
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 1: there and and you know the sun comes up and

849
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 1: and it's gorgeous. Uh, And we appreciate nature or appreciate

850
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:58,959
Speaker 1: the animal. We have some sort of appreciation. So those

851
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:04,879
Speaker 1: three a's that achievement, affiliation, appreciation. So in the work

852
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 1: that we're referring to one of these papers here, we

853
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:14,319
Speaker 1: went online to these three hunting forms. One was kind

854
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 1: of a North America wide one, one was from Texas,

855
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,839
Speaker 1: and one was from from here in BC. And we

856
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 1: looked at um satisfactions expressed by posters of stories. You know,

857
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:32,960
Speaker 1: someone writes a story that says, you know, whatever, my my,

858
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 1: my biggest blacktail yet, and it's the story as you know,

859
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 1: you know, the seen here, and then there's replies to it. Anyways,

860
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 1: we just looked at the at the posts and we

861
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:50,839
Speaker 1: use what's called qualitative analysis to um categorize different phrases

862
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:57,280
Speaker 1: into their different buckets if they were relevant achievement, affiliation,

863
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 1: appreciation and uh. And that's kind of the background of

864
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 1: how we did our work. There's several hundred stories I

865
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 1: forget um how many, and we looked across a variety

866
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 1: of of prey um and usually this work had been

867
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 1: done on dear. I mean, I mean that's being actually

868
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 1: most of the human dimensions work has been on dear.

869
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:23,759
Speaker 1: We wanted to broaden it to look at not only

870
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:27,360
Speaker 1: dear but but but other you know, large herbivores and

871
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 1: and the carnivores to um and in a nutshell, what

872
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 1: we found is that achievement is prominent, um no matter

873
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 1: what context. Those who are posting about their hunts are

874
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 1: are using language and phrases that refer to achievement, you know,

875
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 1: like felt great to get the biggest buck of my

876
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 1: life or a phrase like that in different domains, and

877
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 1: it could have been about their athletic performance too, So

878
00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 1: you know, I had to scramble up some incredible scree

879
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 1: to get this sheep or goat or whatever, and that's

880
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:07,759
Speaker 1: also an achievement thing, um um. But we did find that,

881
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 1: you know, other satisfactions being with your buddies, affiliation and

882
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 1: appreciating things. You know. The context was also important, but

883
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 1: at a far lower rate. We we tend to to

884
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:26,239
Speaker 1: have read or you know it detected those phrases quite

885
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:28,960
Speaker 1: a bit less, uh. And then we looked at are

886
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:33,840
Speaker 1: the difference between the stories of people that were describing

887
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 1: hunts of a large herbivore versus a large carnivore, And

888
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 1: there was we see you and even far more pronounced

889
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:47,840
Speaker 1: frequency of achievement oriented um sentences, and a near absence

890
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 1: of appreciation, whether it be for the animal itself or

891
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:55,319
Speaker 1: for um, you know, the scenery or whatever. Those were

892
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 1: tended to be mostly about um achievements. So anyways, that

893
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 1: that's those are the results in a nutshell, which was

894
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 1: you know, a nice enough contribution to earn a spot

895
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 1: in a in a good journal about this sort of stuff,

896
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 1: because some of these questions haven't been asked before. So yeah,

897
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 1: and I think and when when I when I first

898
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:18,359
Speaker 1: read it, and I'm I'm thinking about it, and I

899
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:21,920
Speaker 1: try to and we we definitely all have our biases

900
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 1: when it comes to these things, and I've always tried to,

901
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:26,840
Speaker 1: you know, arraid, like, look at this from what it is.

902
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 1: And I think it was four hundred fifty five stories

903
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 1: if I go back and read that got in front

904
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 1: of me here, um, And so that's no insignificant um

905
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:39,840
Speaker 1: number of people talking on these forums. So you know,

906
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 1: you're looking at a certain type of communication. And in

907
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 1: my you know, I've been in in the hunting industry

908
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 1: for over well over a decade and and done and

909
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:51,919
Speaker 1: work for a lot of publications and thought about these

910
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 1: things all the time like how do we how do

911
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 1: we express um? And and traditionally we expressed it by

912
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:00,160
Speaker 1: killing big bucks, right. That was when I first came

913
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 1: into the industry. I work for a hunting magazine, a

914
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 1: prominent hunting magazine, and you had you had either had

915
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:09,320
Speaker 1: to have the wildlife picture or the grip and grind

916
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:13,240
Speaker 1: picture on the cover. And then that those things started

917
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 1: to evolve. So as you looked at this, because I

918
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 1: want to get to some other things, so I kind

919
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:19,360
Speaker 1: of want to maybe microwave this conversation a little bit.

920
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:23,879
Speaker 1: But as you look at this, UM, do you make

921
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 1: any inferences to you know, the types of stereotypes that

922
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 1: are out there for for hunters, turphy hunters, things like that,

923
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 1: or or is there a different thing you take away? Well,

924
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:36,319
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, yeah, we could take this in

925
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:40,680
Speaker 1: all sorts of directions, but you know, it reaffirms what

926
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 1: what UM. You know, evolutionary anthropologists have written about and

927
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:49,800
Speaker 1: discussed for years that that there's a good reason why

928
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:54,359
Speaker 1: people are so concerned with achievement. I mean, you know,

929
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 1: not just in hunting, and I'm specifically talking about men here.

930
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:00,880
Speaker 1: You know, you go to you go to uh, I

931
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:04,400
Speaker 1: don't know, a job site or weight room or whatever.

932
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:12,400
Speaker 1: And and and guys, we evolved behaviors that that tended

933
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:15,840
Speaker 1: to seek achievement and the display of that achievement to others.

934
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 1: And that was really adaptive that that was very useful

935
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 1: to uh compete with other males in a in an

936
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 1: ancestral environment and to to win the ladies and so

937
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 1: on and so forth. So of course achievement is going

938
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:33,440
Speaker 1: to be a prominent still is. You know, we're in

939
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 1: a very different contemporary environment now, but you know, those

940
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 1: those behaviors and tendencies still um are retained. And you

941
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 1: know you still go to you know, you flip through

942
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:49,840
Speaker 1: the Tabella's catalog or hunting magazines and you know a

943
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 1: lot of the ads that wants to sell your stuff,

944
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 1: you know, focus on achievement. Um. You know, there's there's

945
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 1: clearly some about you know a phil creation being with

946
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 1: with your buds and and and some beautiful stuff with

947
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 1: your family. Um. But clearly achievement is important. UM to

948
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:15,480
Speaker 1: your question about you know stereotypes, um, well, yeah, you

949
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 1: know even within the hunting community that we you know,

950
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 1: use use phrases like grip and grant. We we recognize

951
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 1: that you know, we like to show this stuff off,

952
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 1: um as this kind of who we are. UM, it

953
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:33,080
Speaker 1: can be judged by others, and it clearly is judged

954
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 1: by others outside the hunting community. That's gotten uh. You know,

955
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 1: hunters some flack and maybe rightly so. UM it kind

956
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:46,640
Speaker 1: of just is uh. And how hunters kind of choose

957
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 1: to manage that, um is it may you know, either

958
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:57,000
Speaker 1: bring more flack or or or more understanding by the

959
00:58:57,040 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 1: non hunting community. I mean, the parts a lot for

960
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:02,560
Speaker 1: the work, but I imagine this is where you want

961
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:04,320
Speaker 1: to go with this sort of stuff. Yeah, I mean

962
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 1: I think that's that's It's interesting to me because I've

963
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 1: over the years fallen in and out of some of

964
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 1: these common tropes in the hunting world and these traditions

965
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 1: that I felt like I needed to take part in,

966
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 1: and um, some of the pressures of the community. UM.

967
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 1: Sometimes too good results, sometimes maybe they're not so good

968
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:23,600
Speaker 1: result And so then I took a step back personally,

969
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:26,439
Speaker 1: just me personally, and said, what is the motivation here?

970
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 1: Achievement as part of it, but what is the achievement

971
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 1: that really is at the heart of of my passion

972
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:35,320
Speaker 1: for this? You know, what really is it? And so

973
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:38,240
Speaker 1: I landed on a bunch of things. Um, well, a

974
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 1: couple of them. I think it would be interesting to

975
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:43,960
Speaker 1: talk about. One is the craft and the skill of everything,

976
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:46,680
Speaker 1: and and that this craft and skill has this three

977
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:50,880
Speaker 1: dimensional quality where if I'm really awful at bow hunting, um,

978
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:56,240
Speaker 1: I have the chance to maim, wound, otherwise injure another

979
00:59:56,320 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 1: living creature. And so this craft and skill. While learning

980
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:03,880
Speaker 1: to play pool is great, it feels too dimensional. There's

981
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 1: nothing at the other end of that pool ball except

982
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 1: for your own satisfaction. And I hope, I hope you're

983
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:12,440
Speaker 1: not doing anything that So I understand that, understand that

984
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:16,920
Speaker 1: metaphor with pool, Uh that, Yeah, there's there's something coming

985
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 1: back after that investment into your craftsmanship and your training

986
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:24,320
Speaker 1: and your discipline. And you know, I'm a you know,

987
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:28,080
Speaker 1: a martial artist and surfer understand these things, and a hunter, uh,

988
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 1: far less crafty than you, I suspect, um, but um

989
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 1: uh yeah, I can understand that's a part of you know,

990
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:43,680
Speaker 1: how you value the outputs of your achievement. Um. But

991
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:45,800
Speaker 1: I think I interrupted you. So there's the craftsmanship, and

992
01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:48,000
Speaker 1: there's probably some more things, maybe that relate to food.

993
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:50,440
Speaker 1: I bet a yeah. I mean there's food for sure,

994
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 1: but the food I think is also part of the

995
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:56,600
Speaker 1: craft um. And then the transformation of the animal from

996
01:00:56,640 --> 01:00:59,880
Speaker 1: a living thing into and that I'm never then I

997
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:03,160
Speaker 1: never leave it. My proximity to it is is if

998
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:06,040
Speaker 1: I butcher my own animals, which I do, I never

999
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:08,880
Speaker 1: leave it from the time it becomes a steak and

1000
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:11,480
Speaker 1: my child is smiling while he's eating it for the

1001
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 1: time it lived on the mountains. So that that certainly

1002
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:17,360
Speaker 1: is a huge, huge passion and achiever in my life.

1003
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:18,960
Speaker 1: But the one I think it would be interesting to

1004
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 1: hear you talk about having worked on and read four

1005
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 1: fiftive stories like this is do you think that hunters

1006
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 1: The core question I have is do you think that

1007
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:33,440
Speaker 1: hunters realize the gamelike quality that they that draws them

1008
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:35,480
Speaker 1: in here? You know, the push and pool of learning

1009
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:40,440
Speaker 1: where an animal lives and going up against underpredictable foe um.

1010
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:42,160
Speaker 1: And what do you think about that and all that

1011
01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 1: you've kind of done with this paper and everything else

1012
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 1: you've you've looked at. Oh, of course, well, now I

1013
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:50,840
Speaker 1: I you know, drawing my own experience as a hunter,

1014
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:55,720
Speaker 1: drawing on our experiences and in reading stories like this

1015
01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:57,920
Speaker 1: that we even talked about in this paper. And by

1016
01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:01,960
Speaker 1: the way, this paper is read uh led by Elena Ebling.

1017
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:07,240
Speaker 1: Should the undergrad honor students who kind of crushed it

1018
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:10,360
Speaker 1: did a great job? Um, But clearly that's a part

1019
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:14,480
Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, I mean it's it may culminate and

1020
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:17,800
Speaker 1: many men, especially young men, and I want to return

1021
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 1: to that may may especially elevate uh the achievement of

1022
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:28,480
Speaker 1: actually getting the animal and showing others that he has

1023
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:32,040
Speaker 1: gotten that animal. Clearly, there's you know a whole process,

1024
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:37,920
Speaker 1: uh you know, from planning your hunt. You know, you

1025
01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:40,720
Speaker 1: know the strategy about you know where am I going

1026
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:44,360
Speaker 1: to be? Uh at you know an hour before the

1027
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:49,840
Speaker 1: sun starts coming up to you know, how delicious is

1028
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 1: this backstrap going to taste after, you know, after you've

1029
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:55,840
Speaker 1: bushered it and and feeding it to your family. And

1030
01:02:56,000 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 1: clearly all that is clearly important. Some of these other

1031
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:05,919
Speaker 1: things may become more important as we age out as men.

1032
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:08,840
Speaker 1: So you probably know and you probably I know you've

1033
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:13,160
Speaker 1: got kids, as do I. Our testoferone goes down an

1034
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:16,160
Speaker 1: awful lot, uh you know when we have kids, and

1035
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 1: our propensity to to feel like we want to signal

1036
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:25,680
Speaker 1: our achievements to others, to you know, to compete with

1037
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 1: other dudes or or to win ladies when we when

1038
01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:32,000
Speaker 1: we have a woman in our life or a partner

1039
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:36,800
Speaker 1: in our life and and have kids. Um evolution has

1040
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:41,600
Speaker 1: shaped some really pronounced differences in how we behave that's

1041
01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:47,320
Speaker 1: that's moderated by or mediated rather by hormones and in

1042
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 1: particular testofserone so so, and people, you know, actually way

1043
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:53,760
Speaker 1: back in the literature started noticing that that you know,

1044
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:57,840
Speaker 1: achievement becomes less the actual achievement of getting the animal

1045
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:02,280
Speaker 1: itself becomes less important as as we mature, you know,

1046
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:06,240
Speaker 1: physiologically and and maybe even you know, mature as as

1047
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 1: hunters more broadly, recognizing that, you know, there's a pretty

1048
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 1: cool craft background to this and and you know, a

1049
01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:19,600
Speaker 1: foodie sort of orientation behind this too. Yeah, it's interesting

1050
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:22,400
Speaker 1: that you mentioned kind of the the life cycle of

1051
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:25,200
Speaker 1: a hunter, because there's been many there's not many. There's

1052
01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:27,400
Speaker 1: some commentary on like what that looks like where you

1053
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:29,080
Speaker 1: start and the kind of where you finish. And I

1054
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:31,480
Speaker 1: have had a lot of experience with people I really respect.

1055
01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:34,360
Speaker 1: Wyman Menser is a friend of mine that listeners will

1056
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:38,960
Speaker 1: know who who was a trapper and hunter um for

1057
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:41,680
Speaker 1: profit in his young life and lived in a dugout

1058
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:43,920
Speaker 1: and and got all paid for his college loans with

1059
01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:47,439
Speaker 1: with the pelts of coyotes and bobcats. And then, uh,

1060
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:51,640
Speaker 1: you asked him now fifty sixty years later, and he

1061
01:04:51,680 --> 01:04:55,960
Speaker 1: abhors killing them um interesting and loves to photograph them.

1062
01:04:56,000 --> 01:05:01,280
Speaker 1: And he said, his name is Wyman Menzer, a famous photographer.

1063
01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:03,040
Speaker 1: And if you listen to the podcast we did, I

1064
01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:05,040
Speaker 1: would just happen to be listening to the podcast we

1065
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:08,720
Speaker 1: did a couple of months ago, and he was explaining

1066
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:12,520
Speaker 1: how he felt that the more the older he got,

1067
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:14,600
Speaker 1: he explained it like life from a disease, Like the

1068
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:16,880
Speaker 1: closer I get to Z, the more I appreciate my

1069
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:19,720
Speaker 1: own life. And so it seems to me only natural

1070
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:23,080
Speaker 1: to appreciate the life of animals where I didn't I

1071
01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:26,240
Speaker 1: didn't earlier. And so that's just something i'd heard recently

1072
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 1: that struck me. Yeah, No, that's that's a really cool,

1073
01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:33,320
Speaker 1: uh anecdote. And it kind of aligns with with theory

1074
01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:36,960
Speaker 1: and you know, you know, from like evolutionary theory to

1075
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:42,200
Speaker 1: anthropopy anthropological theory to human dimension theory and data that

1076
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:47,640
Speaker 1: that we see this, this progression within individual's pretty pretty commonly.

1077
01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:50,640
Speaker 1: That's it's pretty cool. Yeah, that's cool. And that's a

1078
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:53,440
Speaker 1: couple other papers that I was, um looking at. I'm

1079
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:55,600
Speaker 1: surely there in the same vein of working with your

1080
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:58,240
Speaker 1: students and coming up with these theories and then working

1081
01:05:58,280 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 1: them out. Um, there's one called I'm in trophy hunt

1082
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:03,520
Speaker 1: it's interesting you did that. I'm sure you remember that

1083
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:08,280
Speaker 1: with Um, can you tell people a little bit? I know,

1084
01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:10,200
Speaker 1: I'm I'm probably throwing you just throwing that at you,

1085
01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:11,960
Speaker 1: but can tell people a little bit what that was

1086
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:14,800
Speaker 1: about and how that came to be? Yeah, no problem. Yeah.

1087
01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:19,440
Speaker 1: So that was a collaboration with evolutionary anthropologists from University

1088
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:25,240
Speaker 1: of of of Utah. And this was you know, at

1089
01:06:25,360 --> 01:06:29,160
Speaker 1: the Cecil kind of zen at the cecil frenzy, the

1090
01:06:29,240 --> 01:06:33,040
Speaker 1: lion who was trophy hunted, and and the you know,

1091
01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:40,360
Speaker 1: the fervor it it brought, you know, globally in and people,

1092
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:42,240
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of sentiment you read is like

1093
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:46,240
Speaker 1: why would a dude do this? You know why? And

1094
01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:49,600
Speaker 1: and you can get into sort of more approximate, more

1095
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:55,120
Speaker 1: kind of ah, in my view, unsatisfactory answers like oh,

1096
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:57,880
Speaker 1: he's you know, he's just looking to show off and

1097
01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:01,000
Speaker 1: and you know he's got a small pp or you know,

1098
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:04,880
Speaker 1: like just stuff that's not very satisfying or or or

1099
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:10,360
Speaker 1: likely correct or whatever. And so we wanted to examine

1100
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:15,400
Speaker 1: the available theory to try to understand theory and data

1101
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:19,760
Speaker 1: understand why do men do this? Um? You know, you

1102
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:23,360
Speaker 1: you pay big bucks, you pay other costs, you know,

1103
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:27,640
Speaker 1: opportunity costs of not hunting other things. Um, it's potentially

1104
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:34,920
Speaker 1: dangerous um uh. And you know there's no real tangible

1105
01:07:35,520 --> 01:07:40,120
Speaker 1: benefits uh that that we tend to associate primarily with hunting,

1106
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:42,000
Speaker 1: and that is, you know, something to eat at the

1107
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:44,720
Speaker 1: end of the day. So why the hell what a

1108
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:51,440
Speaker 1: guy invests so many costs are you know, except so

1109
01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:57,000
Speaker 1: many costs to do something that seemingly has no benefit. Um.

1110
01:07:57,040 --> 01:08:02,040
Speaker 1: But when you start poking around in the literature from

1111
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:06,400
Speaker 1: hunter gatherer societies that are still out there and our

1112
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:10,880
Speaker 1: ancestral past, you start to understand that those costs that

1113
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:14,680
Speaker 1: hunters are willing to accept, as as trophy hunters in

1114
01:08:14,680 --> 01:08:19,320
Speaker 1: particular that that don't eat their food, um, are really

1115
01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:22,280
Speaker 1: important and understanding why the hell they do this. So

1116
01:08:22,400 --> 01:08:26,000
Speaker 1: the idea is this it's referred to as costly signaling,

1117
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:31,400
Speaker 1: and the idea is you want to behave in costly

1118
01:08:31,479 --> 01:08:36,000
Speaker 1: ways because that allows you to signal to others that

1119
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:40,040
Speaker 1: you have what it takes, you know, the intellectual or

1120
01:08:40,080 --> 01:08:47,000
Speaker 1: these days financial or physical abilities to behave in costly ways.

1121
01:08:47,160 --> 01:08:52,440
Speaker 1: It's not much different than a peacock investing an incredible

1122
01:08:52,479 --> 01:08:57,600
Speaker 1: amount of energy food energy into producing this tail in

1123
01:08:57,640 --> 01:09:00,719
Speaker 1: the case of males, to signal to other that's sort

1124
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:07,799
Speaker 1: of the more biological UM, you know, wildlife analog system

1125
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:13,000
Speaker 1: that that you either invest in the expense of morphologies

1126
01:09:13,040 --> 01:09:18,160
Speaker 1: or in this case, behaviors UM, the signal to competitors

1127
01:09:18,200 --> 01:09:21,640
Speaker 1: and potential mates that you've got it, you've got what

1128
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:24,000
Speaker 1: it takes. You know, if you were, you know, a

1129
01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:27,760
Speaker 1: lesser man in terms of your brains or brawn, you

1130
01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:30,200
Speaker 1: couldn't afford to do this. So so it kind of

1131
01:09:30,920 --> 01:09:34,559
Speaker 1: reconciles resolves that that paradox I spoke of, like why

1132
01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:37,120
Speaker 1: would it do this? You can't even eat the lion,

1133
01:09:37,360 --> 01:09:39,679
Speaker 1: and he's ten huge bucks to do this, and he's

1134
01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:43,200
Speaker 1: not out hunting other things he could hunt. Um, So

1135
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:51,719
Speaker 1: it provides a uh satisfactory explanation. UM underlying the sort

1136
01:09:51,760 --> 01:09:56,760
Speaker 1: of seemingly puzzling behavior of of trophy hunters. Yeah, I love.

1137
01:09:56,800 --> 01:09:58,599
Speaker 1: I love the way that you put that. I mean,

1138
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:01,240
Speaker 1: I would like I've as a kid in coming up,

1139
01:10:01,280 --> 01:10:04,080
Speaker 1: I would always tend to disagree. I've really I wrote

1140
01:10:04,120 --> 01:10:06,479
Speaker 1: some things. Hopefully no one googles anything that I wrote

1141
01:10:06,479 --> 01:10:09,439
Speaker 1: in twenty ten, but I've I wrote some things in

1142
01:10:09,479 --> 01:10:13,880
Speaker 1: the beginning of my career, very much scoriating anyone attacking

1143
01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:18,080
Speaker 1: an African trophy hunter, and and looking at conservation based

1144
01:10:18,640 --> 01:10:22,040
Speaker 1: UM community management and the money that goes into these

1145
01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:24,920
Speaker 1: communities and all those things. I look at that and

1146
01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:28,320
Speaker 1: I understand that part. That's a very logical any for

1147
01:10:28,360 --> 01:10:31,760
Speaker 1: someoney as you say that it's successful, has wealth and

1148
01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:36,120
Speaker 1: understands the application of that wealth like it does make sense.

1149
01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:40,280
Speaker 1: The tangible makes sense, but the intangible, the motivation what

1150
01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:43,479
Speaker 1: you're talking about, the why would you do it um

1151
01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:47,320
Speaker 1: doesn't really compute for me, and the times that I

1152
01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:51,320
Speaker 1: found myself in those situations where I don't know exactly

1153
01:10:51,320 --> 01:10:53,720
Speaker 1: why I'm doing this or I don't know why I

1154
01:10:53,720 --> 01:10:55,400
Speaker 1: feel like I want to shoot that wolf or I

1155
01:10:55,720 --> 01:10:58,759
Speaker 1: want to go to Africa and shoot at Cape Buffalo

1156
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:00,760
Speaker 1: for not gonna eat it or whatever. And then I

1157
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:03,439
Speaker 1: find myself maybe I don't know why, but now I

1158
01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:06,560
Speaker 1: have to fall back on the common not excuses, but

1159
01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:10,120
Speaker 1: the explanations for the benefits to to the place I'm

1160
01:11:10,160 --> 01:11:13,559
Speaker 1: going or to the people in the communities in which

1161
01:11:13,600 --> 01:11:16,360
Speaker 1: I'm going. And so that creates this huge and be

1162
01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:20,320
Speaker 1: like very complex and interesting, I think dichotomy between what

1163
01:11:20,360 --> 01:11:22,720
Speaker 1: you're talking about, which is important, like why the hell

1164
01:11:22,760 --> 01:11:24,880
Speaker 1: would you do that? Why did you need to shoot

1165
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:27,519
Speaker 1: that lion? What are you getting from that? You're not

1166
01:11:27,560 --> 01:11:30,400
Speaker 1: going over there just to pay the money, because if

1167
01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:31,880
Speaker 1: you just went over there just to pay the money,

1168
01:11:31,880 --> 01:11:35,160
Speaker 1: you just send the money totally. That that. I'm glad

1169
01:11:35,200 --> 01:11:36,960
Speaker 1: you said that, because you know, there are kind of

1170
01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:39,439
Speaker 1: two different arguments. So what you know and and and

1171
01:11:39,479 --> 01:11:43,280
Speaker 1: in some cases and the jury is still out on this, UH,

1172
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:49,920
Speaker 1: there are some conservation economic reasons UH why trophy hunting

1173
01:11:50,120 --> 01:11:54,519
Speaker 1: can benefit wildlife in their habitats, particularly in Africa, although

1174
01:11:54,560 --> 01:11:59,320
Speaker 1: the data are clearly mixed and unresolved, you know, and

1175
01:11:59,360 --> 01:12:02,720
Speaker 1: there's no odd conclusions there. But but you're right, So

1176
01:12:02,840 --> 01:12:06,160
Speaker 1: one one of the explanations that one UH talks about

1177
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:08,799
Speaker 1: the system in general, you know, should we have trophy

1178
01:12:08,840 --> 01:12:10,960
Speaker 1: hunting blah blah blah, And the other one, the other

1179
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:13,200
Speaker 1: explanation that I've just gone through is like why would

1180
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:17,479
Speaker 1: it do this? And those you know in general, why

1181
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:21,599
Speaker 1: why new men behave this way? Uh? And so one

1182
01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:25,640
Speaker 1: explanation can't suffice for another. That is to say, we

1183
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:30,400
Speaker 1: can't say, Okay, Palmer, Dr Walter Palmer did this to

1184
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:35,240
Speaker 1: help further conservation. Um. You know that's his motivation, to

1185
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:38,839
Speaker 1: help you know, lion and other wildlife habitat in Africa.

1186
01:12:38,920 --> 01:12:41,880
Speaker 1: That's not a satisfactory answer that that's what people use

1187
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:46,040
Speaker 1: to justify the industry. Um. And but those are you know,

1188
01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:48,800
Speaker 1: to two really different things. Can I stop real quick?

1189
01:12:48,800 --> 01:12:51,320
Speaker 1: And because I think there's I think you're right, and

1190
01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:53,160
Speaker 1: I want to maybe return mabe. I didn't make my

1191
01:12:53,240 --> 01:12:56,800
Speaker 1: point well enough. I do think that as kind of

1192
01:12:56,920 --> 01:12:59,120
Speaker 1: you know, I've talked, I've talked to folks at the

1193
01:12:59,160 --> 01:13:01,880
Speaker 1: i U c N. I've talked to We're gonna in

1194
01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:04,880
Speaker 1: future episodes have folks like Dr Dillis Rowe and Rosie

1195
01:13:04,880 --> 01:13:07,760
Speaker 1: Cuney on. These are people that study these things and

1196
01:13:07,840 --> 01:13:11,360
Speaker 1: know that these communities are benefiting from from this activity.

1197
01:13:11,760 --> 01:13:14,960
Speaker 1: And these trophy hunts are resulting in constant they call

1198
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:18,639
Speaker 1: them community based conservations, what they call it. Um, this

1199
01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:21,920
Speaker 1: is resulting in more animals. I've seen it, and like,

1200
01:13:21,960 --> 01:13:25,040
Speaker 1: this is this is this regulatory body that I understand

1201
01:13:25,439 --> 01:13:27,200
Speaker 1: and I you know, they know way more than I do,

1202
01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:29,240
Speaker 1: so I like to hear that from them. So I

1203
01:13:29,280 --> 01:13:32,519
Speaker 1: want to separate that aside knowing that this is the

1204
01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:35,080
Speaker 1: way I'll just describe this and people will not like this,

1205
01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:38,200
Speaker 1: but this is the way I think about it. This

1206
01:13:38,320 --> 01:13:41,800
Speaker 1: is this is is an unsustainable model. We would never

1207
01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:46,000
Speaker 1: allow a small number of international wealthy hunters to to

1208
01:13:46,560 --> 01:13:49,680
Speaker 1: fund conservation in America. That would never be allowed in

1209
01:13:49,720 --> 01:13:52,519
Speaker 1: North America. We would never allow ten thousand hunters to

1210
01:13:52,520 --> 01:13:56,320
Speaker 1: come to our continent or our country and pay money

1211
01:13:56,680 --> 01:14:00,760
Speaker 1: so that we could have more wildlife. That that that's

1212
01:14:00,800 --> 01:14:03,040
Speaker 1: not sustainable because what if those people decide they don't

1213
01:14:03,040 --> 01:14:06,280
Speaker 1: want to come anymore. UM. So you have that on

1214
01:14:06,280 --> 01:14:08,880
Speaker 1: a broader level, but on on the secondary levels that

1215
01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:11,479
Speaker 1: are probably more importantly. This is the only way it

1216
01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:15,960
Speaker 1: can work at this moment. So there's other socioeconomical, economical

1217
01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:19,400
Speaker 1: things that should probably be fixed before we go erasing

1218
01:14:19,439 --> 01:14:21,920
Speaker 1: this and replacing it with something else. So that's my

1219
01:14:22,080 --> 01:14:23,599
Speaker 1: I just want to say, that's my stance. Some people

1220
01:14:23,720 --> 01:14:25,400
Speaker 1: might not like the fact that I think it's kind

1221
01:14:25,439 --> 01:14:28,519
Speaker 1: of like holding it hostage for a moment and saying like,

1222
01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:31,679
Speaker 1: I'm the only way that this can work. It's working,

1223
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:35,160
Speaker 1: it's working, probably better than most people think, but it's

1224
01:14:35,240 --> 01:14:38,439
Speaker 1: just not sustainable. And so that's my that's my little

1225
01:14:38,720 --> 01:14:43,000
Speaker 1: opinion or rant on that. So continue the other I

1226
01:14:43,040 --> 01:14:46,400
Speaker 1: appreciate that I know kind of enough about that whole

1227
01:14:47,200 --> 01:14:51,639
Speaker 1: thing to be dangerous. Uh. And you know, because but

1228
01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:55,360
Speaker 1: but like philosophically, I I totally hear what you're saying.

1229
01:14:55,400 --> 01:14:58,920
Speaker 1: I think that's that and and that you that you've

1230
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:01,400
Speaker 1: brought up, you know, inverse what happens if you know

1231
01:15:01,520 --> 01:15:06,200
Speaker 1: North American wildlife conservation hinged, you know, narrowly on you know,

1232
01:15:06,280 --> 01:15:09,960
Speaker 1: a bunch of international wealthy people coming over and killing

1233
01:15:10,040 --> 01:15:12,920
Speaker 1: wildlife here, that would be pretty messed up. Um, that's

1234
01:15:13,160 --> 01:15:15,760
Speaker 1: a good point. Yeah. And and to to say that

1235
01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:18,920
Speaker 1: I think this system should stand until we can find

1236
01:15:18,920 --> 01:15:20,679
Speaker 1: a better one, but we should be working to find

1237
01:15:20,680 --> 01:15:23,639
Speaker 1: a better one. We shouldn't would be saying like, look

1238
01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:26,639
Speaker 1: how great this is. It's not great. It's just not

1239
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:29,120
Speaker 1: no matter no matter what you know, no matter what

1240
01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:32,479
Speaker 1: group you're in, it just gets this is objective to me.

1241
01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:35,280
Speaker 1: Yeah no, I think I think that's a good point.

1242
01:15:35,360 --> 01:15:38,120
Speaker 1: We've written on the ethics of of this, you know,

1243
01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:42,479
Speaker 1: more generally, and almost arrived at the same conclusion in

1244
01:15:42,600 --> 01:15:45,920
Speaker 1: that we said, you know, should there be no other

1245
01:15:46,840 --> 01:15:50,720
Speaker 1: viable option, you know, especially when things are precarious, we

1246
01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:54,800
Speaker 1: should accept this, this one and only option, with you know,

1247
01:15:54,880 --> 01:16:00,240
Speaker 1: sort of commensurate um degree of somber understand and I

1248
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:02,559
Speaker 1: forget the words we use, but but you know, it's

1249
01:16:02,600 --> 01:16:07,160
Speaker 1: not something we should perhaps trumpet as you know, an

1250
01:16:07,160 --> 01:16:11,960
Speaker 1: outstanding solution. We should we should be somewhat circumspect and

1251
01:16:12,280 --> 01:16:15,800
Speaker 1: and whatnot. Yeah no, I think that makes a lot

1252
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:22,080
Speaker 1: of sense. Back to covering back off on the other

1253
01:16:22,120 --> 01:16:25,360
Speaker 1: side of this, which is the the motivation, because I

1254
01:16:25,400 --> 01:16:29,960
Speaker 1: think that's what while while hunters seem to want to

1255
01:16:30,000 --> 01:16:32,280
Speaker 1: kind of take the pragmatic approach, which I do appreciate.

1256
01:16:32,960 --> 01:16:34,760
Speaker 1: Um the community that I'm in, you want to take

1257
01:16:34,760 --> 01:16:37,439
Speaker 1: this pragmatic approach. Are there more animals? Yes, well, you know,

1258
01:16:37,640 --> 01:16:40,200
Speaker 1: we've we've had the comment that you know, Dr Larry

1259
01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:42,160
Speaker 1: Skys made the comment that he feels like the last

1260
01:16:42,760 --> 01:16:47,400
Speaker 1: African elephant will survive in Texas. Um and and this.

1261
01:16:47,600 --> 01:16:50,599
Speaker 1: These things are interesting to think about and will continue

1262
01:16:50,640 --> 01:16:52,840
Speaker 1: to think about them. But then you go back to

1263
01:16:53,360 --> 01:16:56,240
Speaker 1: what's the moment, you know, I think one the anti

1264
01:16:56,320 --> 01:16:59,000
Speaker 1: hunting world or the hunting world that doesn't early non

1265
01:16:59,040 --> 01:17:01,600
Speaker 1: hunting world that doesn't stand this is looking at what

1266
01:17:01,640 --> 01:17:05,040
Speaker 1: you were talking about, the motivation, not the tangible impact

1267
01:17:05,040 --> 01:17:08,040
Speaker 1: to the animals and the population in the ecosystem, but

1268
01:17:08,400 --> 01:17:10,840
Speaker 1: the motivation. And so I think that's why when I

1269
01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:12,920
Speaker 1: was reading this paper, I'm like, this is getting this

1270
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:16,560
Speaker 1: is getting to the real opposition to this. It's motivation.

1271
01:17:17,280 --> 01:17:19,080
Speaker 1: And so I guess the question is do you think

1272
01:17:19,120 --> 01:17:22,920
Speaker 1: it's hard to I mean, every individual motivation is different.

1273
01:17:23,400 --> 01:17:25,479
Speaker 1: Um is it hard to collect all those motivations and

1274
01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:28,720
Speaker 1: make inferences or is this something you're comfortable, you know,

1275
01:17:28,840 --> 01:17:32,679
Speaker 1: given the work that you've done, Well, there there there

1276
01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:36,640
Speaker 1: are patterns that that's probably the best way to say it.

1277
01:17:36,680 --> 01:17:41,480
Speaker 1: That's that clearly there's tons of variation across the hunting population.

1278
01:17:41,560 --> 01:17:44,360
Speaker 1: We've talked about how age may have a you know

1279
01:17:44,640 --> 01:17:48,960
Speaker 1: clearly does have a pronounced influence on our motivation as

1280
01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:54,439
Speaker 1: we age out as hunters. There's geographic variation, there's variation

1281
01:17:54,479 --> 01:17:57,559
Speaker 1: as it may relates to what what you know, target

1282
01:17:57,880 --> 01:18:02,360
Speaker 1: we're currently after on a hunt and so on. So

1283
01:18:02,360 --> 01:18:07,439
Speaker 1: so no, I mean, you know, there's no absolute, definitely

1284
01:18:07,439 --> 01:18:10,280
Speaker 1: not an effect. In that paper, we we expressed that,

1285
01:18:10,400 --> 01:18:15,400
Speaker 1: you know, multiple satisfactions are are common, but you know,

1286
01:18:15,479 --> 01:18:19,880
Speaker 1: the commonest is his achievement by and large, uh, you know,

1287
01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:23,800
Speaker 1: getting into the kind of the non or anti hunting opposition,

1288
01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:27,519
Speaker 1: and people do, as you're well aware, some sort of

1289
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:30,760
Speaker 1: you know, kind of moral calculus for lack of a

1290
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:35,320
Speaker 1: better word, and they they they tend to ask themselves

1291
01:18:35,439 --> 01:18:38,840
Speaker 1: and I'm I'm I'm leaving alone, you know, the most

1292
01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:44,720
Speaker 1: kind of extreme you know, uh, anti hunters here, but

1293
01:18:45,080 --> 01:18:47,599
Speaker 1: most of the society that that doesn't hunt. You know,

1294
01:18:48,840 --> 01:18:52,559
Speaker 1: my feeling is and there's you know, some suggestion that

1295
01:18:52,640 --> 01:18:56,000
Speaker 1: this is the case. Do some basic moral calculus like okay,

1296
01:18:56,000 --> 01:19:00,160
Speaker 1: what does the hunter getting how to kill him this animal? Uh?

1297
01:19:00,320 --> 01:19:07,559
Speaker 1: And and does do those benefits justify the costs that

1298
01:19:07,600 --> 01:19:10,840
Speaker 1: the animal itself bears? Because we know, you know, we've

1299
01:19:10,880 --> 01:19:14,760
Speaker 1: seen animals suffer and die in front of us. That's

1300
01:19:14,840 --> 01:19:18,599
Speaker 1: kind of the ultimate cost any you know, sentient animal

1301
01:19:18,840 --> 01:19:23,400
Speaker 1: can pay. So so all of us hunters included, we think, Okay,

1302
01:19:23,400 --> 01:19:26,720
Speaker 1: what am I getting out of this to justify this

1303
01:19:26,880 --> 01:19:30,120
Speaker 1: sort of behavior? And and you know what the what

1304
01:19:30,160 --> 01:19:34,479
Speaker 1: the sociological data tell us anyways, especially from the United States,

1305
01:19:34,560 --> 01:19:38,160
Speaker 1: and you're probably you know, those big surveys by Responsive

1306
01:19:38,160 --> 01:19:44,559
Speaker 1: Management and manfred O work UM on on values and

1307
01:19:44,560 --> 01:19:47,519
Speaker 1: and and generally that tells us that by and large,

1308
01:19:47,520 --> 01:19:53,840
Speaker 1: the non hunting community um supports hunting for food, you know,

1309
01:19:54,000 --> 01:19:57,840
Speaker 1: to the tune of of people in the US. But

1310
01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:00,639
Speaker 1: when you ask, you know, do you support hunting for

1311
01:20:00,920 --> 01:20:05,479
Speaker 1: sport and trophy, that that support goes down into the

1312
01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:09,760
Speaker 1: twenties percent. Uh And then there's clearly some complexity when

1313
01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:14,120
Speaker 1: when some animals are you know, great trophy animals for

1314
01:20:14,160 --> 01:20:17,520
Speaker 1: those that are interested in trophies, but they're also incredibly

1315
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:21,320
Speaker 1: delicious and clearly sought after for food. You know, I'm thinking,

1316
01:20:21,880 --> 01:20:24,720
Speaker 1: you know, elk or moose or you know something like that,

1317
01:20:24,760 --> 01:20:29,160
Speaker 1: in particular sheep for that matter. And uh so that's

1318
01:20:29,200 --> 01:20:32,040
Speaker 1: when it gets a little murky. But for me, the

1319
01:20:32,200 --> 01:20:35,400
Speaker 1: kind of way to understand at the most basic level

1320
01:20:35,520 --> 01:20:38,759
Speaker 1: of what the non or anti hunting society is thinking

1321
01:20:38,760 --> 01:20:43,080
Speaker 1: out there is is whether the benefits that are crue

1322
01:20:43,120 --> 01:20:48,000
Speaker 1: to hunters um justify the costs that are being imposed

1323
01:20:48,120 --> 01:20:51,280
Speaker 1: on you know, individual animals that you know, more and

1324
01:20:51,320 --> 01:20:55,960
Speaker 1: more people care about. I mean, as scientists and hunters,

1325
01:20:56,000 --> 01:21:00,400
Speaker 1: we we probably prioritize, will clearly prioritize the health of

1326
01:21:01,200 --> 01:21:03,960
Speaker 1: and well being of populations. But you know a lot

1327
01:21:04,000 --> 01:21:07,000
Speaker 1: of us also understand that you know, there's individuals and

1328
01:21:07,080 --> 01:21:11,160
Speaker 1: those populations that you know have the same physiology as

1329
01:21:11,240 --> 01:21:13,120
Speaker 1: you or me, And I don't know, I've never been

1330
01:21:13,160 --> 01:21:15,200
Speaker 1: shot and I don't think you have, and you know

1331
01:21:15,800 --> 01:21:19,559
Speaker 1: it would hurt theory. Suffering and dying sucks, So we

1332
01:21:19,600 --> 01:21:22,280
Speaker 1: should we should think about some of this stuff as

1333
01:21:22,400 --> 01:21:25,800
Speaker 1: as other people are clearly doing. So for me, that

1334
01:21:25,920 --> 01:21:29,599
Speaker 1: kind of bolt boils down some of these these controversies. Yeah,

1335
01:21:29,640 --> 01:21:32,440
Speaker 1: I think that's a good way to express the opposition

1336
01:21:32,680 --> 01:21:35,280
Speaker 1: to this. And as I've said, I think that if

1337
01:21:35,320 --> 01:21:38,000
Speaker 1: you I always came at this like why I have

1338
01:21:38,040 --> 01:21:40,439
Speaker 1: to be pragmatic. You know, it's a numbers game, and

1339
01:21:41,040 --> 01:21:43,320
Speaker 1: it's a food game, and it's there's other things that

1340
01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:46,800
Speaker 1: seem more just logic based and less emotion based. And

1341
01:21:46,800 --> 01:21:50,640
Speaker 1: that's always what people throw back at at a progressive

1342
01:21:50,720 --> 01:21:54,160
Speaker 1: liberal non hunter, who who wants who? Who thinks the

1343
01:21:54,200 --> 01:21:56,599
Speaker 1: deer is cute? And I've started to peel my own

1344
01:21:57,400 --> 01:22:00,439
Speaker 1: biases about that away and then look at Okay, well,

1345
01:22:00,520 --> 01:22:03,160
Speaker 1: let's let's look at the death for a moment um

1346
01:22:03,200 --> 01:22:05,639
Speaker 1: it'sself the death itself for a moment. So we talked

1347
01:22:05,640 --> 01:22:09,240
Speaker 1: about the craft and skill portion of that. But also

1348
01:22:10,200 --> 01:22:12,559
Speaker 1: one of the things I think emotionally that I've started

1349
01:22:12,560 --> 01:22:15,280
Speaker 1: to appreciate is the fact that I have this what

1350
01:22:15,320 --> 01:22:18,920
Speaker 1: we've been calling tragic knowledge of death, Like I understand

1351
01:22:20,080 --> 01:22:24,840
Speaker 1: emotionally understand death doesn't make it any easier. Well, won't

1352
01:22:24,880 --> 01:22:27,599
Speaker 1: make death in my life any easier, but it does

1353
01:22:28,080 --> 01:22:31,080
Speaker 1: if you really dig into the natural world, death is

1354
01:22:31,120 --> 01:22:36,640
Speaker 1: a benefit. Um, you know, it's a benefit the population

1355
01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:44,360
Speaker 1: levels level. It ain't a benefit exactly. And so that's

1356
01:22:44,360 --> 01:22:46,760
Speaker 1: the thing that we have to You know, when a

1357
01:22:46,800 --> 01:22:51,240
Speaker 1: wolf kills neon Nate, there's benefits to the wolf. There

1358
01:22:51,280 --> 01:22:54,120
Speaker 1: certainly is no benefit to the young life of this

1359
01:22:54,200 --> 01:22:56,639
Speaker 1: elk or meal deer or whatever that's getting taken out.

1360
01:22:56,680 --> 01:22:59,840
Speaker 1: And so I think nature has the same struggle that

1361
01:22:59,880 --> 01:23:02,599
Speaker 1: I I'm having, and so I'm able to then relate

1362
01:23:02,640 --> 01:23:04,280
Speaker 1: to nature like, hey, I get it, man, I get

1363
01:23:04,280 --> 01:23:05,760
Speaker 1: that the death is good for me, but it's not

1364
01:23:05,800 --> 01:23:08,960
Speaker 1: good for the thing I just killed. And and that's

1365
01:23:09,000 --> 01:23:11,839
Speaker 1: that's at some level kind of the baseline of predatory behavior.

1366
01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:14,840
Speaker 1: I think this makes sense to you or this, Yeah,

1367
01:23:14,840 --> 01:23:20,640
Speaker 1: oh it totally does. Man. Uh yep. I I appreciate

1368
01:23:21,320 --> 01:23:27,479
Speaker 1: or maybe understand death more than than others that are

1369
01:23:27,520 --> 01:23:31,479
Speaker 1: non hunters. You know, watching you know, an animal blink

1370
01:23:31,479 --> 01:23:35,240
Speaker 1: out before you. It's it's it's it's heavy. It's real heavy,

1371
01:23:35,439 --> 01:23:40,200
Speaker 1: even probably to the coldest you know people among us

1372
01:23:40,240 --> 01:23:42,920
Speaker 1: as heavy as hell. So you know, it's something that

1373
01:23:42,920 --> 01:23:46,800
Speaker 1: that most of us take take real seriously. Yeah, do

1374
01:23:47,120 --> 01:23:50,680
Speaker 1: you ever feel like there'll be an understanding? I know, Um,

1375
01:23:50,720 --> 01:23:52,880
Speaker 1: you know one of my favorite quotes is hunting is

1376
01:23:52,920 --> 01:23:55,520
Speaker 1: so different from the inside that it is from the outside.

1377
01:23:55,840 --> 01:23:59,320
Speaker 1: That's my pollan and the worst dilemma. And I always

1378
01:23:59,360 --> 01:24:02,439
Speaker 1: thought about that. I wonder if um, kind of getting

1379
01:24:02,479 --> 01:24:05,480
Speaker 1: all the rails here, but who cares a podcast? Um?

1380
01:24:05,520 --> 01:24:07,760
Speaker 1: I wonder if you have thought about is there a

1381
01:24:07,800 --> 01:24:10,280
Speaker 1: way to make that connection for people that have never

1382
01:24:10,320 --> 01:24:13,800
Speaker 1: done this, that like, hey, this death is kind of

1383
01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:16,080
Speaker 1: a It's a thing we always think about, but man,

1384
01:24:16,120 --> 01:24:18,160
Speaker 1: it's so hard to imagine if you've never done it

1385
01:24:18,320 --> 01:24:23,200
Speaker 1: doing it. Yeah, No, I think it's it's for people.

1386
01:24:23,400 --> 01:24:25,559
Speaker 1: And you probably know this. There's lots of people that

1387
01:24:25,600 --> 01:24:30,680
Speaker 1: are Actually there's more people becoming increasingly distanced from the

1388
01:24:30,800 --> 01:24:34,880
Speaker 1: natural world and ignorant of it compared to those that are,

1389
01:24:34,920 --> 01:24:37,880
Speaker 1: you know, getting more in tune with it. So I

1390
01:24:37,920 --> 01:24:40,280
Speaker 1: think it's going to be real hard to for people

1391
01:24:40,320 --> 01:24:47,360
Speaker 1: to to you know, understand that. Um. You know that

1392
01:24:47,479 --> 01:24:50,280
Speaker 1: being said, and going back to kind of moral calculus stuff,

1393
01:24:50,320 --> 01:24:53,439
Speaker 1: you know, and conflicts and all this. I think you know,

1394
01:24:53,520 --> 01:24:57,720
Speaker 1: what's been clear from the sociological data for you know,

1395
01:24:58,960 --> 01:25:03,839
Speaker 1: decades and increasingly so, is that that the non hunting

1396
01:25:03,880 --> 01:25:08,360
Speaker 1: public are generally fine with us killing deer, an elk

1397
01:25:08,439 --> 01:25:11,920
Speaker 1: and all that stuff. Uh. And they're generally, but not always,

1398
01:25:12,040 --> 01:25:16,919
Speaker 1: you know, uh, generally not cool with us killing something

1399
01:25:17,600 --> 01:25:21,320
Speaker 1: for only a rug or you know, only to get

1400
01:25:21,360 --> 01:25:25,200
Speaker 1: it get the predator off the landscape. And if something

1401
01:25:25,280 --> 01:25:31,280
Speaker 1: like a wolf for a or a cat uh isn't eaten. Um.

1402
01:25:31,320 --> 01:25:33,799
Speaker 1: And I don't think that's going to go away because

1403
01:25:33,800 --> 01:25:37,080
Speaker 1: I think the kind of fundamentals of that calculus, it's

1404
01:25:37,080 --> 01:25:41,720
Speaker 1: pretty hard to convince the non hunting public that, you know,

1405
01:25:42,560 --> 01:25:47,360
Speaker 1: killing a wolf is justified. That's just not going to happen.

1406
01:25:47,360 --> 01:25:50,920
Speaker 1: And people can argue all day the night about you know,

1407
01:25:51,080 --> 01:25:53,759
Speaker 1: the values of it. But but generally the non hunting

1408
01:25:53,760 --> 01:25:55,960
Speaker 1: public I don't believe and that the data kind of

1409
01:25:55,960 --> 01:25:59,760
Speaker 1: support this, are ever going to accept that. UM. But

1410
01:26:00,360 --> 01:26:03,080
Speaker 1: that being said, there are ways for for hunters probably

1411
01:26:03,120 --> 01:26:06,160
Speaker 1: to to and I'm sure you've chatted about this with

1412
01:26:06,200 --> 01:26:09,880
Speaker 1: others on podcast. There's a way to kind of um

1413
01:26:10,120 --> 01:26:14,280
Speaker 1: hunters to to manage their behavior and think about the

1414
01:26:14,320 --> 01:26:18,440
Speaker 1: non hunting public a little more and in their outreach

1415
01:26:18,520 --> 01:26:22,000
Speaker 1: and and and whatnot. Yeah, we talked about that quite

1416
01:26:22,040 --> 01:26:25,559
Speaker 1: a lot. And I'm glad we're kind of bring up

1417
01:26:25,560 --> 01:26:29,000
Speaker 1: wolves and predators here because we've had UM I won't

1418
01:26:29,040 --> 01:26:31,479
Speaker 1: explain the whole tale that we've gone through, but we

1419
01:26:31,520 --> 01:26:33,960
Speaker 1: had a bar attack story come out of Alaska a

1420
01:26:34,000 --> 01:26:38,000
Speaker 1: couple of months ago, and the story around it was

1421
01:26:38,000 --> 01:26:40,760
Speaker 1: was insane, and it got me to thinking about predators,

1422
01:26:40,920 --> 01:26:44,240
Speaker 1: bear attacks, our appreciation for them, why we're so drawn

1423
01:26:44,280 --> 01:26:46,639
Speaker 1: to the bear attacks themselves, And then kind of kind

1424
01:26:46,640 --> 01:26:49,479
Speaker 1: of following this thought process, all the way to walking

1425
01:26:49,520 --> 01:26:53,960
Speaker 1: in Yellowstone with a predator biologist, and then having UM

1426
01:26:54,000 --> 01:26:58,040
Speaker 1: a neurologist who studied the central amygdala and the neuron

1427
01:26:58,080 --> 01:27:00,759
Speaker 1: pockets in there and how they work for pred story behavior,

1428
01:27:00,800 --> 01:27:03,840
Speaker 1: and then on to UM guys like Dr Barry K.

1429
01:27:03,960 --> 01:27:05,960
Speaker 1: Gilbert who's been on the show, who is is a

1430
01:27:06,000 --> 01:27:10,040
Speaker 1: staunch protectionist when it comes to hunting predators, and then

1431
01:27:10,280 --> 01:27:13,200
Speaker 1: UM Dr Larius Guist, who is in fact the opposite,

1432
01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:17,200
Speaker 1: who is arguing last week for intelligent intervention and that

1433
01:27:17,240 --> 01:27:21,400
Speaker 1: being the only way forward in terms of predators. And

1434
01:27:21,479 --> 01:27:24,240
Speaker 1: so I guess briefly say, I've learned that there are

1435
01:27:24,280 --> 01:27:26,120
Speaker 1: a lot of people who thought a lot about this,

1436
01:27:26,200 --> 01:27:29,599
Speaker 1: that have done scholarly the works, that believe all, you know,

1437
01:27:29,880 --> 01:27:32,080
Speaker 1: things that are completely opposite of each other when it

1438
01:27:32,120 --> 01:27:35,559
Speaker 1: comes to predators. And I know you've had your UM,

1439
01:27:35,560 --> 01:27:38,759
Speaker 1: your moments with the head up there, especially in British

1440
01:27:38,800 --> 01:27:41,000
Speaker 1: Columbia with with the grizzly bears. So you got to

1441
01:27:41,040 --> 01:27:43,360
Speaker 1: talk about your experience with this kind of I know

1442
01:27:43,439 --> 01:27:46,120
Speaker 1: you've had some. We were talking a week or so

1443
01:27:46,200 --> 01:27:49,840
Speaker 1: ago about some of the more controversial I guess you

1444
01:27:49,840 --> 01:27:52,559
Speaker 1: could say, quote unquote things that you've said or some

1445
01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:54,439
Speaker 1: of the things that have gone on British Columbia. Just

1446
01:27:54,479 --> 01:27:58,679
Speaker 1: give people your your story briefly. Sure, yeah, yeah, um yeah,

1447
01:27:58,720 --> 01:28:02,360
Speaker 1: I'm I'm much close are aligned to Dr Gilbert and

1448
01:28:02,479 --> 01:28:05,479
Speaker 1: Dr Geist in terms of of what it really comes

1449
01:28:05,479 --> 01:28:07,840
Speaker 1: down to his values. You know, do I do I

1450
01:28:07,920 --> 01:28:11,160
Speaker 1: think it's right to hunt a predator? And it's not.

1451
01:28:11,240 --> 01:28:14,760
Speaker 1: This isn't a question of of science, you know. He

1452
01:28:15,280 --> 01:28:18,880
Speaker 1: science tells us, you know, how ecosystems work or how

1453
01:28:18,920 --> 01:28:22,519
Speaker 1: they may respond to our management interventions. But they can

1454
01:28:22,560 --> 01:28:25,479
Speaker 1: never science can never really tell us that, you know,

1455
01:28:26,040 --> 01:28:28,880
Speaker 1: it's okay or right to kill a predator. That's kind

1456
01:28:28,880 --> 01:28:32,360
Speaker 1: of a value based decision. And and like you know,

1457
01:28:33,080 --> 01:28:39,400
Speaker 1: seventy of society and and interestingly, about the same percentage

1458
01:28:39,439 --> 01:28:45,080
Speaker 1: of hunters, I'm not supportive of of killing a predator. Uh.

1459
01:28:46,040 --> 01:28:48,840
Speaker 1: You know, if the intention is not to eat it, Uh,

1460
01:28:49,560 --> 01:28:53,920
Speaker 1: those those benefits that would accrue to me just don't

1461
01:28:54,080 --> 01:29:00,680
Speaker 1: justify the costs imposed on the animal. That's the way

1462
01:29:00,720 --> 01:29:07,760
Speaker 1: I feel. Uh. And and it's it's controversial because you know,

1463
01:29:07,760 --> 01:29:11,599
Speaker 1: there's lots of scientists in b C included that that think,

1464
01:29:11,720 --> 01:29:13,960
Speaker 1: you know, I shouldn't really be talking about values and

1465
01:29:14,040 --> 01:29:17,280
Speaker 1: this is a scientific in some sort of way. But

1466
01:29:17,280 --> 01:29:23,320
Speaker 1: but my view, and uh, I believe it's a more

1467
01:29:23,400 --> 01:29:26,519
Speaker 1: correct one, is that we're in the realm of values

1468
01:29:26,560 --> 01:29:30,479
Speaker 1: here and not science. As all science can never justify whether,

1469
01:29:30,600 --> 01:29:34,680
Speaker 1: you know, the grizzly bear hunt in BC, is is

1470
01:29:35,400 --> 01:29:38,479
Speaker 1: something we should be doing or not. That that's clearly

1471
01:29:39,479 --> 01:29:42,280
Speaker 1: a subject of values. And that's why, in fact that

1472
01:29:42,400 --> 01:29:46,479
Speaker 1: the BC government um turned off the hunt because it

1473
01:29:46,560 --> 01:29:50,719
Speaker 1: doesn't align with the values of most people, including hunters

1474
01:29:51,240 --> 01:29:53,720
Speaker 1: from BC. Yeah, and most of the most of the

1475
01:29:53,800 --> 01:29:56,080
Speaker 1: folks in the hunting community that I know up there,

1476
01:29:56,120 --> 01:29:58,599
Speaker 1: I'd say it's split. Probably if I had to just

1477
01:29:58,640 --> 01:30:01,759
Speaker 1: think about a number, I think it would be sixty forty.

1478
01:30:01,800 --> 01:30:04,559
Speaker 1: In my world of people that actually live in BC.

1479
01:30:04,840 --> 01:30:07,160
Speaker 1: Most of these guys are remote outfitters and people that

1480
01:30:07,200 --> 01:30:09,760
Speaker 1: I know. So even in that world, sixty six five,

1481
01:30:09,800 --> 01:30:12,680
Speaker 1: maybe seventy seven out of ten people want us to

1482
01:30:12,760 --> 01:30:15,639
Speaker 1: hunt grizzly bears. And then and again we go back

1483
01:30:15,640 --> 01:30:18,080
Speaker 1: to what we talked about earlier, Um, these are people

1484
01:30:18,120 --> 01:30:20,519
Speaker 1: that live out in these you know, the places where

1485
01:30:20,520 --> 01:30:24,519
Speaker 1: I've hunted before, Quesnel and Quesnel, in places that folks

1486
01:30:24,600 --> 01:30:28,400
Speaker 1: might know yeah for most yeah. Um. And so these

1487
01:30:28,400 --> 01:30:31,400
Speaker 1: people see it as economic, they see it as a livelihood.

1488
01:30:32,600 --> 01:30:35,120
Speaker 1: And I was I was gonna I was gonna challenge

1489
01:30:35,160 --> 01:30:38,680
Speaker 1: you gently on that that. Yeah, if you're talking about outfitters,

1490
01:30:38,680 --> 01:30:42,679
Speaker 1: of course, yeah, are going to be Yeah, because that

1491
01:30:42,680 --> 01:30:46,080
Speaker 1: that brought in good money and for for them and

1492
01:30:46,439 --> 01:30:49,080
Speaker 1: people they hire. And yeah, there's no there's no doubt

1493
01:30:49,120 --> 01:30:52,400
Speaker 1: about that. I would say that if I just people,

1494
01:30:52,439 --> 01:30:54,599
Speaker 1: I guess the reason why I will throw my opinion

1495
01:30:54,600 --> 01:30:56,599
Speaker 1: in here just because we've been exploring this, and the

1496
01:30:56,600 --> 01:30:58,679
Speaker 1: reason why we wanted to talk to folks like yourself

1497
01:30:58,680 --> 01:31:01,920
Speaker 1: that believe what you and Dr Gilbert and Dr geist

1498
01:31:02,600 --> 01:31:04,760
Speaker 1: Um and Dr Staylor as well, is just trying to

1499
01:31:04,760 --> 01:31:08,479
Speaker 1: get a myriad a picture of where this sits. Um.

1500
01:31:08,479 --> 01:31:10,400
Speaker 1: I think if I could speak for Dr geist he

1501
01:31:10,520 --> 01:31:15,120
Speaker 1: believes that we are best equipped to manage these these animals,

1502
01:31:15,120 --> 01:31:17,840
Speaker 1: and we are best equipped to make sure that we

1503
01:31:17,960 --> 01:31:21,680
Speaker 1: have a healthy balance of all all of these unlids

1504
01:31:21,720 --> 01:31:24,920
Speaker 1: plus you know, pray animals plus predators. Um. He feels

1505
01:31:25,040 --> 01:31:28,840
Speaker 1: very strongly about that. And as you will as you

1506
01:31:28,880 --> 01:31:31,200
Speaker 1: will know and I think you probably feel it is

1507
01:31:31,280 --> 01:31:34,080
Speaker 1: equally strongly about the idea that this is a value

1508
01:31:34,080 --> 01:31:37,360
Speaker 1: and it is not um as he would as I

1509
01:31:37,400 --> 01:31:39,840
Speaker 1: think he would say, and again I'm not real sure

1510
01:31:39,840 --> 01:31:42,880
Speaker 1: on this one. If I'm being honest, he would say

1511
01:31:42,920 --> 01:31:46,559
Speaker 1: that listen, this is um is this our duty, This

1512
01:31:46,640 --> 01:31:49,679
Speaker 1: is our duty as conservations and scientists. This is something

1513
01:31:49,720 --> 01:31:51,880
Speaker 1: that if we don't step in here, we have our

1514
01:31:52,200 --> 01:31:54,560
Speaker 1: our human brains and the ability to step in and

1515
01:31:54,840 --> 01:31:58,920
Speaker 1: provide balance where nature just won't. Yeah. Yeah, I believe

1516
01:31:58,960 --> 01:32:02,559
Speaker 1: that those who interview engines can be really useful, um,

1517
01:32:02,640 --> 01:32:07,880
Speaker 1: but best reserved for cases in which the uh and

1518
01:32:08,040 --> 01:32:10,920
Speaker 1: I hate this this phrase, but for simplicity the balance

1519
01:32:10,960 --> 01:32:17,439
Speaker 1: of nature is upset, for example, invasive UH animals. Um. Yes,

1520
01:32:18,000 --> 01:32:22,599
Speaker 1: definitely we need to intervene and and lethally because you know,

1521
01:32:22,640 --> 01:32:26,520
Speaker 1: invasive species is you know, it's one of the horsemen

1522
01:32:26,560 --> 01:32:30,840
Speaker 1: of the current environmental apocalypse here. And yeah, so I

1523
01:32:30,840 --> 01:32:34,920
Speaker 1: would absolutely align with geist on on in that sort

1524
01:32:34,920 --> 01:32:38,960
Speaker 1: of context. But in you know, managing multiple predator multiple

1525
01:32:39,000 --> 01:32:44,280
Speaker 1: prey systems that have managed themselves UM with and I

1526
01:32:44,320 --> 01:32:53,320
Speaker 1: will note with the participation of of people for for millennia. UM.

1527
01:32:53,360 --> 01:32:58,519
Speaker 1: You know, there's clearly way, clearly justification to know that

1528
01:32:59,200 --> 01:33:03,040
Speaker 1: you know, in those context, things generally manage themselves. And

1529
01:33:03,080 --> 01:33:06,679
Speaker 1: when we you know, tweet hunting to look very different

1530
01:33:07,040 --> 01:33:13,040
Speaker 1: than it has for millennia, you know, punching in roads

1531
01:33:13,080 --> 01:33:16,840
Speaker 1: to new areas, you know, being able to take um

1532
01:33:16,960 --> 01:33:22,200
Speaker 1: animals from a couple of kilometers away, um, increasing our

1533
01:33:22,240 --> 01:33:27,800
Speaker 1: ability to to target specific phenotypes or you know, specific

1534
01:33:27,880 --> 01:33:32,000
Speaker 1: forms within populations. The biggest curl you know, are the

1535
01:33:32,000 --> 01:33:36,160
Speaker 1: biggest racks or whatever, are the biggest fish, especially um

1536
01:33:36,200 --> 01:33:40,960
Speaker 1: that has caused all sorts of mayhem the ecological and

1537
01:33:41,080 --> 01:33:46,800
Speaker 1: evolutionary uh landscape out there. So so that's where where

1538
01:33:47,200 --> 01:33:51,120
Speaker 1: Dr Geist and I would would probably not see eye eye. Yeah, well,

1539
01:33:51,120 --> 01:33:53,479
Speaker 1: at some point I think what I've what I've realized

1540
01:33:53,520 --> 01:33:54,840
Speaker 1: through all of this, and I've had a couple of

1541
01:33:55,360 --> 01:33:59,640
Speaker 1: listeners right in and and say that, well, you there's

1542
01:33:59,680 --> 01:34:01,840
Speaker 1: a point where you have to push these people on

1543
01:34:01,880 --> 01:34:03,800
Speaker 1: both directions, people that want to push Dr Geist and

1544
01:34:03,840 --> 01:34:05,800
Speaker 1: people would want me to push you on these things,

1545
01:34:05,880 --> 01:34:09,360
Speaker 1: and I don't. I just want I want there too.

1546
01:34:09,680 --> 01:34:11,960
Speaker 1: And this is what I've found in reading things and

1547
01:34:12,000 --> 01:34:16,000
Speaker 1: looking around, that there are these disparate ideas UM. And

1548
01:34:16,120 --> 01:34:18,920
Speaker 1: I wonder if you if you kind of in your

1549
01:34:19,680 --> 01:34:22,240
Speaker 1: in BC or even in any work you've done in

1550
01:34:22,240 --> 01:34:25,120
Speaker 1: the States or with your colleagues or people in your

1551
01:34:25,240 --> 01:34:29,360
Speaker 1: industry as it as it might be called. Um, that's

1552
01:34:29,400 --> 01:34:34,400
Speaker 1: really not an injured community, maybe scientific community. If you've

1553
01:34:34,479 --> 01:34:37,559
Speaker 1: kind of seen that there are sides, because I've I've seen,

1554
01:34:37,640 --> 01:34:40,120
Speaker 1: specially in the Greater Yelstone ecosystem here that it tends

1555
01:34:40,120 --> 01:34:44,880
Speaker 1: to be the game and fish department versus the environmental activists,

1556
01:34:44,920 --> 01:34:49,280
Speaker 1: activists for animal rights activists. It seems like that keeps happening.

1557
01:34:49,479 --> 01:34:53,639
Speaker 1: And no, you're right, it's highly polarized. There's definitely camps,

1558
01:34:53,720 --> 01:34:57,840
Speaker 1: you know, there's there, there's you know, clearly exceptions and

1559
01:34:58,000 --> 01:35:01,960
Speaker 1: some hybridization. I mean, I suspect, you know, I'm kind

1560
01:35:01,960 --> 01:35:06,479
Speaker 1: of one puzzling thing because on one hand, I'm I,

1561
01:35:07,880 --> 01:35:10,559
Speaker 1: you know, I'm against some forms of hunting based on

1562
01:35:10,600 --> 01:35:14,960
Speaker 1: my value systems and strongly and outspokenly so UM, but

1563
01:35:15,040 --> 01:35:17,320
Speaker 1: I'm also a hunter, so, you know, like a sort

1564
01:35:17,360 --> 01:35:21,479
Speaker 1: of a bear hugger on on one hand, and and

1565
01:35:22,560 --> 01:35:24,640
Speaker 1: I know and I like to chase moose on the

1566
01:35:24,680 --> 01:35:27,639
Speaker 1: other hand. So so, so it's hard for some people

1567
01:35:27,640 --> 01:35:30,200
Speaker 1: to resolve. UM. And I you know, I get a

1568
01:35:30,240 --> 01:35:33,880
Speaker 1: fair share of attacks. You know you're telling me that sucks,

1569
01:35:33,920 --> 01:35:36,280
Speaker 1: man Like I don't. You shouldn't get attack based on that.

1570
01:35:36,560 --> 01:35:39,120
Speaker 1: We should be able to We should be able to

1571
01:35:39,120 --> 01:35:42,760
Speaker 1: talk about this. We have to be Interestingly, a lot

1572
01:35:42,800 --> 01:35:47,040
Speaker 1: of the attacks come from other wildlife scientists that that

1573
01:35:47,040 --> 01:35:51,840
Speaker 1: that you know, in either sort of passive aggressive or

1574
01:35:51,880 --> 01:35:54,559
Speaker 1: what I refer to as sort of stealth advocacy ways

1575
01:35:54,600 --> 01:35:57,960
Speaker 1: try to trash me um or you know, the bolter

1576
01:35:58,120 --> 01:36:01,400
Speaker 1: among them a little more directly so, but you know,

1577
01:36:01,439 --> 01:36:04,640
Speaker 1: that's kind of the way it's always been, you know,

1578
01:36:04,720 --> 01:36:08,760
Speaker 1: in terms of camps and polarization. I see some some

1579
01:36:08,800 --> 01:36:13,519
Speaker 1: potential avenues for change. I think one of is the

1580
01:36:13,680 --> 01:36:17,839
Speaker 1: kind of new foodie movement and getting you know, people

1581
01:36:18,320 --> 01:36:21,320
Speaker 1: that may not have grown up as hunters into the

1582
01:36:21,360 --> 01:36:26,719
Speaker 1: bush um with the idea of getting you know, um,

1583
01:36:26,960 --> 01:36:33,040
Speaker 1: humanely sourced, especially in in comparison to industrial farming meat

1584
01:36:33,160 --> 01:36:37,519
Speaker 1: on their tables and and delicious, you know, hormone free stuff.

1585
01:36:37,560 --> 01:36:41,519
Speaker 1: So I think there's some nice bridges that are are

1586
01:36:41,600 --> 01:36:46,000
Speaker 1: being built and will continue to be built. Uh there, um,

1587
01:36:46,040 --> 01:36:50,280
Speaker 1: I see, you know, it's it's pretty modest in effects now,

1588
01:36:50,320 --> 01:36:53,280
Speaker 1: but I see it, you know, progressing, and that is

1589
01:36:53,880 --> 01:36:58,040
Speaker 1: people from the hunting community, saying, you know, I love hunting,

1590
01:36:58,040 --> 01:37:02,560
Speaker 1: and I love hunting so much that I don't want, um,

1591
01:37:02,600 --> 01:37:06,559
Speaker 1: the social license that that we depend on to be

1592
01:37:06,720 --> 01:37:11,240
Speaker 1: ruined by you know, the minority of us that want

1593
01:37:11,280 --> 01:37:16,000
Speaker 1: to shoot a wolf and and Griffin granted on Instagram.

1594
01:37:16,600 --> 01:37:21,360
Speaker 1: Uh so I see, I see, you know, some seeds

1595
01:37:21,360 --> 01:37:25,400
Speaker 1: of change being planted in in in those two and

1596
01:37:25,520 --> 01:37:28,880
Speaker 1: probably other kind of context for sure. And I think

1597
01:37:28,880 --> 01:37:31,880
Speaker 1: that I used to try to see this as camps

1598
01:37:31,880 --> 01:37:34,200
Speaker 1: like the old way in the new way. Um, I've

1599
01:37:34,200 --> 01:37:37,120
Speaker 1: fallen into that before, but now I don't think of

1600
01:37:37,120 --> 01:37:39,719
Speaker 1: it that way. I think of it as I want

1601
01:37:39,840 --> 01:37:42,800
Speaker 1: the individuals in the community that I'm around and people

1602
01:37:42,840 --> 01:37:44,800
Speaker 1: that I can talk to, in effect, just to be

1603
01:37:44,840 --> 01:37:47,519
Speaker 1: thoughtful and think about these things, because there's sometimes they're

1604
01:37:47,560 --> 01:37:50,640
Speaker 1: hard to sets out personally. Um. Sometimes you've shot a

1605
01:37:50,640 --> 01:37:53,080
Speaker 1: wolf and you and you have the wolf rug and

1606
01:37:53,200 --> 01:37:56,920
Speaker 1: you feel like you're saving some elk um, and it

1607
01:37:57,040 --> 01:38:00,479
Speaker 1: may take some time to to think about that and

1608
01:38:00,520 --> 01:38:04,280
Speaker 1: to understand what you've done personally, not what we should do,

1609
01:38:04,760 --> 01:38:08,519
Speaker 1: but what you have done. And UM, just those thoughts

1610
01:38:08,520 --> 01:38:10,960
Speaker 1: I think are in and of themselves a change to

1611
01:38:11,040 --> 01:38:13,640
Speaker 1: be able to say, you know, when I came up,

1612
01:38:13,680 --> 01:38:15,400
Speaker 1: you didn't. That wasn't a thing I talked about with

1613
01:38:15,439 --> 01:38:16,840
Speaker 1: my dad. But him and I do talk about it

1614
01:38:16,880 --> 01:38:19,760
Speaker 1: now because I think he is is very happy and

1615
01:38:19,760 --> 01:38:23,120
Speaker 1: he understands that me my generation, I think there's more,

1616
01:38:23,840 --> 01:38:27,400
Speaker 1: you know, more natural history, more anthropology, more zoology, and

1617
01:38:27,439 --> 01:38:30,120
Speaker 1: more all kinds of things that that we're interested in

1618
01:38:30,120 --> 01:38:33,400
Speaker 1: that help inform, you know, this thoughtful approach to what's

1619
01:38:33,439 --> 01:38:35,640
Speaker 1: a very serious thing. Killing a wolf is not a

1620
01:38:35,680 --> 01:38:40,639
Speaker 1: thing somebody should take lightly in any context or anything.

1621
01:38:40,720 --> 01:38:43,320
Speaker 1: So one one thing, I think, maybe the last thing

1622
01:38:43,320 --> 01:38:46,559
Speaker 1: I'd like to hear your thoughts on. We have a guy, um,

1623
01:38:46,600 --> 01:38:49,640
Speaker 1: a good friend here, real thoughtful guy, real smart individual

1624
01:38:50,000 --> 01:38:53,920
Speaker 1: named Clay nucom Um. He has a phrase called guard

1625
01:38:54,000 --> 01:38:56,479
Speaker 1: the Gate where he talks about and I've heard many

1626
01:38:56,680 --> 01:38:59,000
Speaker 1: folks talk about this. When he talks about it, it's

1627
01:38:59,040 --> 01:39:02,120
Speaker 1: compelling to me because he's articulate, but he says guards

1628
01:39:02,120 --> 01:39:04,599
Speaker 1: the Gate. He feels like, if you know, we let

1629
01:39:05,000 --> 01:39:08,920
Speaker 1: the value systems driven you know, by other parts of

1630
01:39:09,040 --> 01:39:14,880
Speaker 1: our country takeaway hunting with dogs or hunting with um

1631
01:39:14,880 --> 01:39:18,519
Speaker 1: over bait, or hunting you know, predators, that they'll just

1632
01:39:18,560 --> 01:39:21,639
Speaker 1: continue to come for they'll just kidd to find reasons,

1633
01:39:21,720 --> 01:39:24,160
Speaker 1: value based reasons to disagree. And so that's his guard

1634
01:39:24,200 --> 01:39:27,240
Speaker 1: the gate um. What do you think about that? What

1635
01:39:27,320 --> 01:39:29,280
Speaker 1: do you think as as somebody that is kind of

1636
01:39:29,280 --> 01:39:32,599
Speaker 1: practicing some of the value based judgments that you're you're doing.

1637
01:39:32,640 --> 01:39:36,439
Speaker 1: Do you feel like you're not going to take his stuff?

1638
01:39:36,479 --> 01:39:40,479
Speaker 1: Are you like, you know, I I hear, I hear

1639
01:39:40,520 --> 01:39:42,960
Speaker 1: the nature of his argument kind of like the slippery slope.

1640
01:39:43,000 --> 01:39:45,160
Speaker 1: You know, first they'll come, you know up here we

1641
01:39:45,200 --> 01:39:48,920
Speaker 1: hear it first, or come for the grizz takeaway grizzly hunt,

1642
01:39:49,040 --> 01:39:51,960
Speaker 1: and next are going to try to take away our moose.

1643
01:39:53,040 --> 01:39:57,440
Speaker 1: And for me, I understand those concerns and and insecurities,

1644
01:39:57,479 --> 01:40:00,360
Speaker 1: and I understand that that he rightly reckoned eyes is

1645
01:40:00,479 --> 01:40:04,679
Speaker 1: that the non hunting community can have enormous influence. That

1646
01:40:04,680 --> 01:40:07,080
Speaker 1: that much is fact. There's no question from you know,

1647
01:40:07,439 --> 01:40:11,560
Speaker 1: kind of the ballot measure stuff that happens in in

1648
01:40:11,560 --> 01:40:16,000
Speaker 1: in the States that impacts hunting and hunting uh policy

1649
01:40:16,720 --> 01:40:21,519
Speaker 1: uh to um, you know, just big government decisions like

1650
01:40:21,640 --> 01:40:25,280
Speaker 1: happens here in BC. The non hunting public does have

1651
01:40:25,800 --> 01:40:31,519
Speaker 1: huge influence on on wildlife. And and we can argue

1652
01:40:31,680 --> 01:40:37,760
Speaker 1: you know as to uh, they're there, um privilege of

1653
01:40:37,840 --> 01:40:40,240
Speaker 1: doing so, whether it's deserved or not. If you know

1654
01:40:40,360 --> 01:40:43,719
Speaker 1: they're all in the cities and don't even interact of wildlife,

1655
01:40:43,720 --> 01:40:45,880
Speaker 1: why should they dictate goes on with wild life? So

1656
01:40:45,920 --> 01:40:48,920
Speaker 1: we can get into that, but maybe it's not for that, um.

1657
01:40:48,960 --> 01:40:51,839
Speaker 1: But so this guy is right in understanding the enormous

1658
01:40:51,880 --> 01:40:55,599
Speaker 1: influence of of non hunters and the potential for change.

1659
01:40:55,920 --> 01:41:03,360
Speaker 1: I think, um, his concerns are probably um way overblown.

1660
01:41:03,479 --> 01:41:09,400
Speaker 1: There are probably clearly some you know, specific hunting contexts

1661
01:41:09,439 --> 01:41:13,280
Speaker 1: that are not going to sit well with with the

1662
01:41:13,360 --> 01:41:18,200
Speaker 1: majority of society. Hunting over bait maybe one of those, UM,

1663
01:41:18,280 --> 01:41:22,920
Speaker 1: hunting with dogs, I'm not sure. Hunting predators for trophy

1664
01:41:23,200 --> 01:41:26,840
Speaker 1: clearly doesn't fit well. But you know, most of what

1665
01:41:26,880 --> 01:41:30,519
Speaker 1: we do as hunters, most of those hunting days in

1666
01:41:30,560 --> 01:41:35,479
Speaker 1: the field, most of our efforts, most people involved, we're

1667
01:41:35,560 --> 01:41:39,240
Speaker 1: not interested in those more sort of fringy things. Were

1668
01:41:39,280 --> 01:41:43,200
Speaker 1: interested in, you know, bringing home food, uh, and that

1669
01:41:43,320 --> 01:41:47,040
Speaker 1: includes you know, our earlier discussions about achievement, but also

1670
01:41:47,120 --> 01:41:50,040
Speaker 1: bringing it home to our kids and filling our freezers

1671
01:41:50,040 --> 01:41:54,360
Speaker 1: with delicious food. And that's that stuff is rock solid.

1672
01:41:54,880 --> 01:41:57,559
Speaker 1: You're not going to get that taken away there? Could

1673
01:41:57,600 --> 01:42:01,120
Speaker 1: you imagine, Like, it's just kind of to me, kind

1674
01:42:01,120 --> 01:42:05,519
Speaker 1: of absurd to imagine a scenario where, you know, it

1675
01:42:05,600 --> 01:42:09,719
Speaker 1: almost sounds like some sort of quacky m conspiracy theory

1676
01:42:09,800 --> 01:42:12,600
Speaker 1: that you know, the lefties, that animal huggers are going

1677
01:42:12,640 --> 01:42:16,240
Speaker 1: to take away our right to kill deer and moose

1678
01:42:16,400 --> 01:42:19,200
Speaker 1: and stuff like that based on values. I mean, come on,

1679
01:42:19,360 --> 01:42:23,040
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's to me, it's just it's just

1680
01:42:23,160 --> 01:42:28,640
Speaker 1: so um inconceivable. But you know that being said, some

1681
01:42:28,680 --> 01:42:31,640
Speaker 1: of the more fringe e stuff that the moral calculus

1682
01:42:31,720 --> 01:42:36,559
Speaker 1: doesn't appeal to the non hunting community. Yeah, there's there's

1683
01:42:36,640 --> 01:42:39,160
Speaker 1: reasons to think that this is going to change. But

1684
01:42:39,320 --> 01:42:41,200
Speaker 1: you know, the bread and butter so to speak, the

1685
01:42:42,680 --> 01:42:46,280
Speaker 1: you know, bringing food home. Uh, I think that's that's

1686
01:42:46,320 --> 01:42:51,680
Speaker 1: pretty rock solid. You probably agree. I do agree. And

1687
01:42:51,720 --> 01:42:53,160
Speaker 1: as I hear you say, I'm glad to hear you

1688
01:42:53,160 --> 01:42:56,400
Speaker 1: think that they're never coming for that, because that is interesting.

1689
01:42:56,400 --> 01:42:59,599
Speaker 1: But there's so many elements to that for me and

1690
01:42:59,600 --> 01:43:01,719
Speaker 1: and come up in the hunting industry. I was always

1691
01:43:01,800 --> 01:43:04,080
Speaker 1: kind of told while hunting is on the down slope,

1692
01:43:04,120 --> 01:43:07,160
Speaker 1: and as you said, we every time I read over yeah,

1693
01:43:07,320 --> 01:43:10,080
Speaker 1: I read a responsive management study and to tellus eleven

1694
01:43:10,080 --> 01:43:14,160
Speaker 1: and ten it is. And so you're you're you're kind

1695
01:43:14,160 --> 01:43:16,280
Speaker 1: of told, oh, well, this is this is a thing

1696
01:43:16,360 --> 01:43:19,240
Speaker 1: that we have to promote. We gotta build, we gotta

1697
01:43:19,320 --> 01:43:22,040
Speaker 1: we gotta build a coalition. We have our three, we

1698
01:43:22,080 --> 01:43:23,960
Speaker 1: have all these these things that we have to do

1699
01:43:24,000 --> 01:43:27,800
Speaker 1: to grow this. And I think these conversations, whether you know,

1700
01:43:27,880 --> 01:43:29,800
Speaker 1: whether somebody like Clay would agree to descree with what

1701
01:43:29,800 --> 01:43:33,360
Speaker 1: you're saying, are are the thing the understandings that will

1702
01:43:33,400 --> 01:43:36,479
Speaker 1: help us, you know, fortify more than anything. And so

1703
01:43:37,479 --> 01:43:41,599
Speaker 1: completely agree a more and more thoughtful approach. Yeah, yeah,

1704
01:43:41,600 --> 01:43:44,000
Speaker 1: I completely agree. Man. Well, Chris, I gotta run. We

1705
01:43:44,120 --> 01:43:48,240
Speaker 1: got other podcasters need to use the studio. Um, but man,

1706
01:43:48,280 --> 01:43:50,320
Speaker 1: this could go for another hour. I kind of wanted to.

1707
01:43:50,400 --> 01:43:52,640
Speaker 1: So maybe we'll have you back at some time. And

1708
01:43:52,640 --> 01:43:55,280
Speaker 1: and UM, you know, keep doing what you're doing. Like

1709
01:43:55,320 --> 01:43:58,120
Speaker 1: I said, I hopefully in our communities we can have

1710
01:43:58,160 --> 01:44:00,519
Speaker 1: these conversations where we might disagree or at least we're

1711
01:44:00,520 --> 01:44:03,920
Speaker 1: exploring things that, um, we have yet to consider. Um

1712
01:44:04,000 --> 01:44:06,200
Speaker 1: more people around us do not like. So I enjoy

1713
01:44:06,240 --> 01:44:09,880
Speaker 1: it and I appreciate your your openness to do it. Likewise, Ben,

1714
01:44:09,920 --> 01:44:14,480
Speaker 1: I appreciate the the your process and having this conversation.

1715
01:44:14,680 --> 01:44:17,360
Speaker 1: It's it's a real good thing and uh had a

1716
01:44:17,360 --> 01:44:19,519
Speaker 1: lot of fun, and yeah, happy to do it again.

1717
01:44:19,600 --> 01:44:22,920
Speaker 1: All right, Chris, appreciate it and we'll talk soon, you bet, Ben,

1718
01:44:23,000 --> 01:44:33,920
Speaker 1: take care. See that's it. That's all another episode in

1719
01:44:33,960 --> 01:44:36,920
Speaker 1: the books. Phil, you're feeling I'm just checking back in

1720
01:44:36,960 --> 01:44:39,920
Speaker 1: with you. What's your emotional state at this moment? Uh,

1721
01:44:40,000 --> 01:44:41,599
Speaker 1: pretty neutral. But I'll tell you what I am doing.

1722
01:44:41,600 --> 01:44:46,479
Speaker 1: I'm looking at the hunter hunter safety courses right now.

1723
01:44:46,600 --> 01:44:48,679
Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure it out. Yea he was when Yeah,

1724
01:44:48,680 --> 01:44:51,720
Speaker 1: he was here last episode. He challenged Phil and I like,

1725
01:44:51,800 --> 01:44:53,680
Speaker 1: what's the plan? What's the first hunt? And we both

1726
01:44:53,680 --> 01:44:56,160
Speaker 1: said we're kind of just drawing this out for the jokes.

1727
01:44:57,120 --> 01:45:02,559
Speaker 1: Uh So now the pressure. Maybe Phil's feeling a little

1728
01:45:02,960 --> 01:45:07,680
Speaker 1: social pressure. Yanni. Yanni has been he's been tough on me.

1729
01:45:07,840 --> 01:45:13,760
Speaker 1: Some tough love love. If you get your get your

1730
01:45:13,800 --> 01:45:17,000
Speaker 1: safety course done, get it together. He's he's wondering why

1731
01:45:17,000 --> 01:45:19,519
Speaker 1: I'm waiting, and I don't have a good answer, no

1732
01:45:19,560 --> 01:45:21,559
Speaker 1: good answer. So the first step is to get that

1733
01:45:21,640 --> 01:45:23,960
Speaker 1: hunter safety course going. You feel like you're gonna be

1734
01:45:23,960 --> 01:45:26,559
Speaker 1: you pass it. I'll help you. Should I help you,

1735
01:45:26,560 --> 01:45:29,360
Speaker 1: I probably shouldn't help you, though, I'm going to be

1736
01:45:29,400 --> 01:45:33,519
Speaker 1: a Mr. Independent. All right, Well, um man, we've we've

1737
01:45:33,520 --> 01:45:37,920
Speaker 1: talked a lot about predators since earlier in July. We're

1738
01:45:38,000 --> 01:45:40,960
Speaker 1: kind of inching towards actual hunting season here, we're getting

1739
01:45:41,000 --> 01:45:44,040
Speaker 1: we're pretty much there, and so um we're not going

1740
01:45:44,080 --> 01:45:47,559
Speaker 1: to leave the predator topic behind. Will continue to talk

1741
01:45:47,560 --> 01:45:50,400
Speaker 1: about it as much as as it pertains. But I

1742
01:45:50,400 --> 01:45:52,599
Speaker 1: feel like we've explored it, Phil, you feel like we've

1743
01:45:52,600 --> 01:45:54,960
Speaker 1: explored it. As we talked to Dr Staylor, we talked

1744
01:45:54,960 --> 01:45:59,120
Speaker 1: to Ivan di Rajo. Actually I talked to him later

1745
01:45:59,120 --> 01:46:03,280
Speaker 1: and got the right produnce station to that nailed that.

1746
01:46:03,360 --> 01:46:05,720
Speaker 1: We talked to val Geist, and now we talked to

1747
01:46:05,720 --> 01:46:09,160
Speaker 1: both Barry Kay Gilbert and Chris Dermont about those issues.

1748
01:46:09,160 --> 01:46:12,519
Speaker 1: So the idea here, amongst all the jokes and the

1749
01:46:12,520 --> 01:46:14,160
Speaker 1: poop stories and things like that, is too is to

1750
01:46:14,160 --> 01:46:18,080
Speaker 1: try to paint a picture of these very smart, very

1751
01:46:18,120 --> 01:46:22,600
Speaker 1: well studied individuals who all have, you know, very nuanced,

1752
01:46:22,720 --> 01:46:27,200
Speaker 1: complex opinions that have moving parts. And so that's I

1753
01:46:27,240 --> 01:46:29,880
Speaker 1: think that in and of itself paints a larger picture

1754
01:46:29,880 --> 01:46:33,120
Speaker 1: of the issue that we're dealing with, um with predators

1755
01:46:33,120 --> 01:46:35,320
Speaker 1: on our landscape. And so it's something that I hopefully

1756
01:46:35,880 --> 01:46:39,280
Speaker 1: if if you're looking for one answer, you're not gonna

1757
01:46:39,320 --> 01:46:42,160
Speaker 1: get it, but certainly you have hours of conversation to

1758
01:46:42,160 --> 01:46:44,719
Speaker 1: listen to from people that are very important, very well read,

1759
01:46:45,520 --> 01:46:48,600
Speaker 1: and very well studied on the subject, which hopefully that

1760
01:46:49,360 --> 01:46:52,000
Speaker 1: can lead you to be as well through maybe os

1761
01:46:52,040 --> 01:46:58,200
Speaker 1: Moses or through THC. So next week one, we're gonna

1762
01:46:58,240 --> 01:47:05,200
Speaker 1: get into Troy Landry, Jacob Landry, Louisiana. You're gonna love it.

1763
01:47:05,520 --> 01:47:08,479
Speaker 1: And after that it's gonna be Elk Talk, Remy Warren.

1764
01:47:08,960 --> 01:47:11,559
Speaker 1: We're gonna get into the mind of an Elk. We're

1765
01:47:11,600 --> 01:47:14,680
Speaker 1: getting the hunting season full boar, a lot of cool

1766
01:47:14,680 --> 01:47:21,000
Speaker 1: stuff coming THHC. Say bye, Phil, goodbye. Because I can't

1767
01:47:21,000 --> 01:47:35,920
Speaker 1: go a week without doing run without run Drank