WEBVTT - The Growing Crypto Ecosystem 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:16.280 Hello, and welcome to What Goes Up, a weekly markets podcast. 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:18.919 My name is Mike Reagan. I'm a senior editor at Bloomberg, 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:22.720 and then Donna h a cross asset reporter with Bloomberg. 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:25.639 This week on the show, well, they were calling it 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:29.040 the crypto Winner. The value of big coins like Bitcoin 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:31.400 and Ether were cut in half and a little more 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:34.120 than two months, and many of the smaller coins fared 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:37.360 even worse. But there have been some green shoots since 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:40.720 late January and crypto values have perked back up again. 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:44.080 What does it all mean for the huge ecosystem of 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:47.519 products that have grown up around crypto. We'll talk to 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.479 the CEO of a company that provides exchange traded crypto 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:53.960 products about what he's expecting in the coming year. But first, 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:57.920 fill Donna all this talk about crypto winner. Has been 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:01.440 thinking about groundhogs? Or do you say will break Groundhog Day? 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:04.760 Doesn't everybody? Don't? We all sort of watch and see 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:07.679 what happens because we want the winter to end. We do. 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:11.360 And there's very sort of ominous news in New Jersey. 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:13.959 Did you know there are local groundhog in New Jersey? 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:18.200 Melville Millville mel actually dropped dead right before he was 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:21.119 supposed to see his shadow or not. I find that 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:23.600 I find that ominous. Yeah, it is pretty ominent. I 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:25.679 don't know what. I don't know what that means. But 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:28.760 I think we need a groundhog for crypto winners, maybe 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:32.480 like an n f T. Like if bitcoins down, you 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:34.480 have a groundhog n f T that comes out and 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:38.160 sees the shadow or not? What how would you How 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:41.240 would you get it to pop its head out of 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:43.360 the ground. It has to be I think it has 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:45.440 to be triggered by like a forty percent drop and 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:48.200 pick coin and then it comes out, and it could 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:50.760 be a coin toss too. I was reading apparently punks 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:54.680 a tawny phil the most famous groundhog only has a 0:01:55.360 --> 0:02:00.440 track record that compares his to his benchmark of a inflip, 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:03.040 and he's trailing his benchmark terribly. So I don't you know, 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:07.120 I think a good n f T crypto groundhog can 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:09.000 beat him. I don't know. I'm throwing it out there 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:12.480 if there's any developers out there listening. It's a weird idea. 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:15.480 That's a free, free idea for me that I'm sure 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:17.800 no one's no one's probably gonna take up. But I 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:21.040 do what I can possibly our guests might have some 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:23.400 thoughts on this. I don't know if I'm sold on it, 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:26.760 but I want to welcome Honey Raschwand he's the co 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:29.880 founder and CEO of twenty one Shares and a Moon, 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:32.320 and Honey, I want to thank you for joining us. 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:35.359 Of course, thanks for having it. I want to get 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:38.640 into your sort of outlook for for crypto in general. 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:41.799 But it's a lot of listeners might not be very 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:43.880 familiar with twenty one shares. It's funny because in the 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:47.320 US we sort of fixate on, you know, the SEC 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:52.080 being very slow in approving uh bitcoin or other crypto 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:55.880 ETFs around the world, though it's flourishing. I mean, twenty 0:02:56.120 --> 0:03:00.120 shares has a bunch trading in European markets, So up 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:01.799 to us a little bit about some of your biggest 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:05.079 products where they're trading, how how much assets are involved, 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:09.520 that sort of thing. If you can't tell by my voice, Um, 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:11.920 I did grow up in America as well, and so 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:13.840 did my co founder, and so the fact that we 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:18.919 actually built the company in Switzerland was very much on purpose. 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:22.080 What we were just looking to do at the beginning 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:27.240 was put crypto in a safe, accessible, known package. Or rapper. 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:29.640 For a lot of people, buying e t S is easier. 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:32.480 For some people, buying e t S is necessary. And 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:35.920 we couldn't find any of these products out there. There 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:39.080 were numerous reasons why not, but we sort of scoured 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:42.240 the globe. We we We spoke to twenty seven different jurisdictions, 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:46.800 different regulators around the world before settling on Switzerland and 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:50.040 then using Switzerland as a base too from which to expand. 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.440 The first product we we launched was actually a bit 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:56.400 of a complicated product. I think people assume we did 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:59.800 the Bitcoin ETP first. No, we we first listed the 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.520 uh what was the world's first and only index one 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:06.680 and so it was an index of the top five 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:11.560 cryptos represented the market, was just a single share and 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:14.000 it was the first time that anything globally had been 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:18.119 listed on a stock exchange that was physically back. Now 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:20.920 that doesn't mean some people listed things and said they 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:23.480 were physically back, but there's no guarantee. It's not in 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:27.120 the product structure itself. These are physically back commodity e 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:30.359 tps and we put crypto it. At the moment, I 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:33.040 think we have maybe two and a half billion or 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:39.279 so spread across about total products. We're going to double 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:42.480 maybe triple the product suite this year, and we cover 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:46.600 everything from a single assets like the most popular ones 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:51.000 bitcoin ethereum, to some less popular ones or more let's say, 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:55.720 more esoteric, younger ones like Polka Dot or chain link 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:59.480 or Solana or binance coins. We also have a bunch 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:02.000 of index is if you want to buy thematic baskets 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:05.400 and that kind of thing. Uh. And we also have 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:09.520 the only bitcoin short in an ETP format, and so 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:11.840 we have a single bitcoin short at the moment. It's 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:17.479 in Switzerland, Austria, Germany, Holland, France, Sweden. I think we 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:23.520 announced that we're bringing Australia it's first bitcoin and ethereum ETPs. 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:26.800 They're classified as at S there actually uh. And we're 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:29.840 going to do the same with brand new region in 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:31.560 the next couple of months. And so that's sort of 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:36.440 where we're at by both assets as well as number 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:39.360 of products. Certainly, we are the world's largest issue of 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:43.000 crypto ETPs and we were the ones that first brought 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:46.080 it to market a couple of years ago. Amazing, yeah, 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:48.720 just a few years. I mean the company's two thousand 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:50.520 and eighteen. You were started, so that's a lot to 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:53.719 get done in a few years. We're three years old. Yeah, 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:55.680 I think we're three years old. In a couple of 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:59.679 months now. I think this this is my third startup. 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:02.560 It is the quickest of product market fit. Now. It 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:07.360 wasn't instantaneous. I remember launching in November with at the 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:11.839 time five million in seated capital, which we slaved away 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:14.760 to raise, having never been in e t F before, 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:18.280 and just the price action of crypto. This was a 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:20.600 basket of the top five. We launched the first day 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:24.719 with five million. On Thursday day two, second day of trading, 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:28.240 three point five three point seven millions, and so that 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:31.799 was the the drop in just one day. I mean, actually, 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:36.360 it took us a really quite some time to get 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:41.280 to an acceptable, respectible level and then from there. I 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:44.600 don't remember going from twenty to twenty million to two 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:48.880 billions again. I remember being in the range of thirty million, 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:51.160 and then all of a sudden, we're now talking about 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:53.800 two to three billion. A lot of people have have 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:56.040 used it, but I think it just it speaks to 0:06:56.120 --> 0:06:58.560 the product market fit here. A lot of people were 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:01.520 looking at this. Why a few folks on the crypto 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:03.880 side were scoffing at the people that would buy crypto 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:07.719 using an e T S or wasn't as exciting adventure 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:11.400 to pursue. Everyone thought it was impossible to do, or 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:14.720 maybe if it's not listed in America, it doesn't matter. 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:17.960 Various other viewpoints there that we happen to disagree with 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:21.440 took a contrarian opinion, and here we are, so, honey, 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:24.320 can you actually talk about the regulation in Europe and 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:27.720 how that regulation actually allows for your products to exist 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:30.440 over there, whereas over here in the US we have 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:34.320 a bitcoin futures product and everybody is still sort of 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:37.960 waiting for that holy grail bitcoin spot e T F. 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:42.000 So when we okay, when we say Europe as it 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:45.560 applies to us specifically, there are two Europe. There's Switzerland 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:49.680 and then there's the European Union, and the regulations are 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:53.000 a bit different. Switzerland has a very very rich history 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:56.680 of costuming and trading commodities like think about swizz gold, 0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:59.680 baults and that kind of thing, and so it was 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:03.000 actually be one of the easier conversations with regulators that 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:06.600 that we had was here in Switzerland, because very very 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:09.960 quickly they got it. We said, we want to wrapper 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:14.880 for physically backed, instored in our vaults gold. We wanted 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:17.680 to have these characteristics. We don't want the ability or 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:19.640 power as an issuer to take the money out. We 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:22.080 wanted to be guaranteed, and we wanted to trade in 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:25.200 this way. We wanted for retail and institutional and they said, great, 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:27.880 here is a package. And then towards the very end, 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:31.760 I remember say yes, but it's digital, that's the only thing. 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:34.199 And so instead of physical bars, we're gonna, you know, 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:38.160 put laminated pieces of paper or platinum plates or whatever 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:41.240 within custody vaulting and do it that way. And so 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:44.839 the Swiss really understood that they got it. There was 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:50.040 also a tremendous amount of political agreement, and not like 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:53.240 we're seeing in America where it's a little bit more 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:55.640 partisan than I would want it to be, but in 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:59.280 in Switzerland, which is quite part is in itself. Everyone 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:01.559 agrees that this the crypto nation and they should have 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:03.720 a stake in the future here, and it's a very 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:06.199 important thing for them. And so we get we get 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:09.319 that treatment, and then we help the country build this 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:11.640 entire program of having been the first to do it, 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:15.240 and and so very good relationship there. Europe is a 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:18.640 bit different in that there is a passporting scheme and 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:22.160 so once you get approved in one European country for 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:27.720 X license, oftentimes you can passport it across the rest 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:30.960 of the European Union, all the other twenty seven countries, 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:33.960 and so that was basically how we've done it, which 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:37.560 is why in some areas of Europe where the regulator 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:40.960 may not be the most bullish crypto, we still may 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:45.080 have listings just based on precedent passporting and doing all 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:46.720 of those various things. But we have a very good 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:49.679 relationship with the German regulator. Germany is the largest on 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:52.800 me in Europe and that's something that we feel very 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:55.800 very good about. On the US and regulations can't comment 0:09:55.960 --> 0:10:00.880 too much with any specifics. We do have a filing 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:04.400 that I think it's public news that we've filed with 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:08.200 Cathy Wood and ARC as well as twenty one shares. 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:11.040 I guess here's what I could talk about. We filed 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:14.640 to files. One was futures and one was physical, and 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:17.640 we have pulled the futures file. We were tracking and 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:20.600 trying to see what people were looking for, how people 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:23.880 would react to it, and in the end it wasn't 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:27.400 the product quality that we wanted from the beginning. We 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:33.920 could have listed private trusts with premiums to uh net 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:36.520 asset value. We could have done things that have greater 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:39.160 counterparty with We could have done things that would have 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:41.800 made us more money. And we've shied away from bad 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:44.920 product built in bad product quality because we don't think 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:47.640 you can as easily replace any of these things over 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:50.040 time and its compounds and all of a sudden you 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:53.960 have a crappy company, right, And so we really didn't 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:56.920 want to do that. We thought, maybe there's enough liquidity, 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.880 maybe this, maybe that. But I think that the data 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:03.839 across the board shows that sends the futures et f launch. 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:06.720 It doesn't track the price of bitcoin, which one would 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:09.280 argue is the most important thing, and then it has 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:12.520 myriad other issues as well, given that it's built on futures. 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:15.280 Physical is the way to go. Physical is how we've 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:18.360 done it so far in probably a dozen countries, and 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:23.120 we will continue making our case. And I can honestly 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:26.560 say that everyone we're speaking to is listening with open 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:29.000 ears and is willing to have a conversation, which is 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:31.319 all that you can really expect and hope for here. 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:34.040 And we will along with the rest of the community 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:37.760 try and work very hard to bring America an easier 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:51.439 way of accessing with the cryptos. Well, honey, I gotta say, 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:53.599 if you have to live through a crypto winner in 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:56.439 the middle of a regular winner, Switzerland seems like a 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:57.839 good place to do it. I hope, I hope you 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:01.840 ski a little bit, uh while you're there. I'll tell 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:04.240 you this. Recently, the blizzards in New York are far 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:09.680 secure whatever interesting. Alright, so we are getting we are 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:11.880 getting the shirt in. But I wanted to sort of 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:14.959 gauge your mood and and what you sense as the 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:18.240 mood of the industry after this this nasty sell off 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:21.920 in in crypto that we've seen since November. Um, you know, 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:25.640 obviously the space was just flourishing. I I know, you 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:29.520 had really ambitious hiring plans. You're gonna hire more than 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:31.920 a hundred people or something like that this year. And 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:35.800 obviously that's that's the story you hear all over the place, 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:39.439 people really ramping up and and and really interesting projects 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:42.400 and a lot of venture capital coming in, and and 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.880 on and on. Does this price action change the temperature 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:47.760 at all? Does it change the mood in the industry? 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:50.800 Make you sort of second guess any plans or anything 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:55.000 like that. Uh, you know, how are you thinking about it? Look, 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:58.040 I think this is a very very interesting question because 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:01.079 by all means, Crypto is not the only one that 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:03.839 it faces these kinds of things. Like I think, I 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:07.000 remember when I when I did my first startup, I 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:10.640 dropped out, I moved to California. It was the Sequoia 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:15.240 Capital's rest in piece good Times power point presentation, because 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:17.599 that's how the market was. And like I remember my 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:21.720 first round that I ever raised was on a today 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:26.640 relatively small cap. I think it was three or four million. 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:29.520 It was three million the first time, four million the 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:32.440 second time around. And it's it's it's a very very 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:36.160 very different world. Of course, it changes the scene. People 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:39.480 are more careful. I forget who said this. It was. 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:41.720 It was a seat station investor. I think it might 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:44.920 have been Michael Deering. And it's it's the most perfect way. 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:49.000 I think during downturns, we all know a Kleenex box, 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:54.160 and based on whether we have just opened it or 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:57.760 if there's only four kleenex is left and it's nighttime, 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:02.559 our use of the Kleenex is going to radically change. 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:05.760 It's the same thing here now, and so I think 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:09.080 all of a sudden, companies that were more casually doing 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:14.800 a million dollars sponsorships for conferences of mostly crypto insiders 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:19.080 are probably rethinking. Some of these companies that were not 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.280 on solid footing. Well, you know, now now we see 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.200 who's swimming without any swim trunks. Now a lot of 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:27.920 sunlight is the best disinfectant here, and so I think 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:31.720 it makes everybody more careful, which is probably why the 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:35.440 data shows that downturns are better times to build companies. 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:38.480 Not everything is going well, you have to make sacrifices. 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:42.000 You have to think about this or that, which is 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:47.200 a new paradigm ship for our industry. But you are 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:50.200 honest with yourself. You're intellectually honest with yourself. You've seen 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:53.120 this coming. If you're careful, you've seen this coming. If 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:55.480 you're in crypto, that's for sure, because you know we 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:58.000 we do these normally and will continue to do them 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:00.440 for for quite some time, and you care for it. 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:04.120 So we still have all of these hiring plans. We 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:06.640 have forty or fifty open positions. Were a hundred and 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:09.080 twenty five people now up from twenty. I think or 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:12.040 so about a year ago. But we've been, you know, 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:16.480 an intelligent squirrel during the bull market and really stored 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:19.240 up to make sure that we not only are safe 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:22.960 now but can can be opportunistic in case something comes up. 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:27.720 We were widely profitable, we remained pretty profitable. But I 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:32.440 think the extra attention to detail is something that I 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:35.640 certainly missed during the bull markets where everyone's a genius 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:39.720 and I wish the prices were higher, I always do, 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:42.840 but I know they'll be higher a year from now, 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:47.200 and I would much rather be in this position than 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:52.960 than anything else. It's also all cyclical, and relatively speaking, 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:56.800 every metric you've said so like bitcoin or ethereum dropping 0:15:56.840 --> 0:16:00.600 by half as compared to what date, because I think, 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:02.640 you know, a year out, we're all up, we're all 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:06.360 beating the SMP. Well, I haven't sold any crypto for years, 0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:10.000 so how how am I? And I think we have 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:13.360 to really consider all of these things, especially in an 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:16.360 area like crypto where a lot of us are very 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:21.440 very trained holders and it's part of the culture. Something 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:24.360 interesting that I actually noticed is a bunch of research 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:26.640 reports that I've been getting in my inbox have been 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:30.360 pointing out that there actually have been slight inflows into 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:33.080 a bunch of crypto products over the last couple of weeks, 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:37.080 and and even if there are outflows, they're really miniscule. 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.400 And I looked at the bitcoin features E t f S, 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:43.360 the ones offered in the US, and they've seen no 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:46.840 outflows at all. And I'm just wondering why you think 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.840 that might be, given that there is so much attention 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:55.720 at the recent draw down. I think it depends on 0:16:56.320 --> 0:17:00.600 the person, because every every person sort of in crypto 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:03.280 for a slightly different reason. Those that are investing in 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:08.120 crypto because of political risk, what has changed. Nothing. Those 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:11.560 that have invested in crypto because they're worried about increased inflation. 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:15.440 What has changed. Part of the equation has changed, which 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:18.399 is why the prices have moved. But largely that thesis, 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:21.040 if you're a long term holder, still applies. Those that 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:24.200 have invested in crypto as a VC case, like a 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:26.320 lot of I think tokens can be looked at as 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:29.160 VC project. Of course they're going to hold that. That's 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:32.000 the whole point, and so I think that's how we 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:35.080 have to think about it. Really, A few of our 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:39.919 competitors have customer profiles that are far different from us, 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:43.440 and they're inflows, outflows. Activities as a result, even in 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:46.360 the good time, are just different from us. We don't 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:49.800 really attract too many traders. We attract long term holders. 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:53.720 Our AUM tends to be among the stickiest in the 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:57.639 space as a result of what is predominantly family offices, 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:00.200 private banks and fund managers that hold the ball of 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.280 the au M of the product, and the healthy dose 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:07.440 of retail that give it act. But you know, I'm 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:10.120 not surprised by the data. Our data shows the same. 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:12.880 It's it's it's a little too soon, but I think 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:18.280 we've come close to maybe inflows in the last thirty days, 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:22.600 which is very good. Actually, you know, a couple of 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:27.040 days of outflows, but overall for the month, net inflows 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:31.120 and the outflows weren't nearly serious. You're in an industry 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:33.440 that talks a lot about in ten years we will 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:36.199 be x and as a result, you get a lot 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:38.880 of people in the industry that invest with that time horizon. 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:41.480 A lot of people are trying to get rich quick, 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:44.640 but they tend to be uh, sort of flushed out 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:48.440 in these market movements. Honey, I want to rewind a 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:50.720 little bit to something you said that I've been thinking 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:53.800 a lot about, and that's sort of the partisanship. Uh no, 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:57.280 when it comes to politics and crypto now here. You're 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:00.240 a guy who's you know, flown around to how many 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:05.159 jurisdictions twenty First of all, I wish I had your 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:08.439 frequent flyer miles. They must be you can probably get 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:10.560 a trip to the moon at this point. But but 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:13.879 I'm curious, you know, tell me if I'm wrong in 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:17.240 sort of simplifying it to the to the idea that 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:20.840 it seems like the conservative side, the right side of 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:25.360 the political aisle is very much sort of pro crypto, 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:29.680 hands off regulation and the and the left side is 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:33.960 more cautious at once tighter regulations, more restrictions. Is that 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:36.200 too simplified of a way to think of it, or 0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:38.879 from your experiences, is that sort of what's going on. 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:42.720 I think that's not a bad summary. I haven't thought 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:46.639 about it under those models. I think it's I think 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:49.639 it's fairly interesting. I I I've always looked at this 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:53.399 as even earlier than that, in that none of the 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:57.560 commentary that I'm hearing on the bearer's side, left or 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:01.360 right makes sense. So it there there's an element there 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:05.439 of you know how, at the very beginning of crypto, 0:20:05.560 --> 0:20:08.080 we were getting a ton of this is only used 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:11.000 for drugs, and at some point we were getting this 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:13.600 is only going to be used by criminals and terrorists, 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:18.800 and that narrative has largely died due to data, to 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:24.080 the anecdotal evidence, due to monitoring on exchanges, the professionalizing, etcetera. 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:27.760 And I would say the same thing here as well. 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:30.959 A lot of the comments that I'm hearing are about 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:36.439 this is going to exacerbate income inequality as an example, right, 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:40.359 and so very that's very clearly something that is a 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:44.400 commentary from the left. That's that's unhelpful. And I'll mention 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:46.000 one on the right as well, just to be fair. 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:50.480 But it's unhelpful mostly because it's not true. Right. My 0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:55.280 co founder of Failure loves crypto in part because of 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:59.160 female and women empowerment in the developing world, suddenly having 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:02.560 access or being able to have access to finances, which 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:07.400 has proven to be better for families overall. Anyone anywhere 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:12.080 in America elsewhere can suddenly plug into a financial system 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:15.040 that is global in nature. There's there's a ton that 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:18.679 the left with love about crypto. It's just not properly explained. 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:22.320 On the right, I think I've heard some things about 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:26.600 how this is quite negative for the United States, it 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:31.200 should be squashed. Maybe China or Russia are behind this 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:34.200 in order to destroy the dollar or to control it 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:37.439 or whatever. It's very clear based on Russian and Chinese 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:42.000 actions that they are similarly confused, right, And I think 0:21:42.080 --> 0:21:45.840 it's just it's a bit early. But to me, bitcoin 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:49.400 is is pretty American. It's what's one of the most 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:53.600 American things I would say has ever been invented build 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:58.960 on sovereignty as a concept, let alone sovereignty in the 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:03.280 digital age, which is which is both American individual liberties 0:22:03.359 --> 0:22:08.000 and freedom combined with American ingenuity and innovation. Right, this, 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:11.000 this thing, this entire asset class is super American, which 0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:13.480 is why a lot of people that happened to the 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:16.040 Americans are in the industry and a lot of American 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:18.600 dollars are in the industry. But it would be a 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:21.360 shame if America missed out on this, and I think 0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:25.840 America can really benefit from this in myriad ways. One 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:28.160 is the bitcoin mining and we've been seeing what states 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:32.720 like Texas are doing to incentivize Chinese mistakes ultimately of 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:36.560 destroying the their own mining industry. But we should see 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:39.960 the same thing. Right now, American exchanges don't seem to 0:22:40.000 --> 0:22:43.280 be as competitive as global exchanges based on revenues, based 0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:46.600 on market share, based on kind of products, and and 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:49.760 and I would I would argue that we have been 0:22:49.840 --> 0:22:52.600 falling behind on a couple of things. We've been doing 0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:56.840 well on say mining and a few other topics, but overall, 0:22:57.000 --> 0:22:59.119 I wouldn't say that it is the best place to 0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:02.359 do DeFi best place to be crypto And you know, 0:23:02.600 --> 0:23:06.080 boy should it be? And we make that case privately 0:23:06.680 --> 0:23:09.639