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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Being a podcast host does involve spending lots of

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Speaker 1: time at home, alone, inside a tiny soundproof closet. the

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Speaker 1: kind of tiny closet that I'm recording this intro from

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Speaker 1: right now. If you're a fan of the show, you

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Speaker 1: can probably guess that holing yourself up alone in a

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Speaker 1: three by four foot room with nothing but a laptop

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Speaker 1: and a microphone, it's not exactly the best way to

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Speaker 1: experience happiness. So whenever I get the opportunity, I like

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Speaker 1: to venture out into the world to record the conversations

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Speaker 1: you get to hear on this show in front of

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Speaker 1: a live audience of actual fans just like you. And

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Speaker 1: for the next few episodes, you're going to get to

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Speaker 1: hear a series of those live conversations. You'll have a

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Speaker 1: front row seat to some of my favorite live shows

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Speaker 1: from the past year. And today, you'll get to travel

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Speaker 1: to Austin, Texas, where I got to have a live

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Speaker 1: conversation at the World Happiness Summit at South by Southwest.

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Speaker 1: Joining me on stage was Happiness Lab regular Dr. Nick Epley.

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Speaker 1: Nick is a professor of behavioral science at the University

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Speaker 1: of Chicago Booth School of Business, where he studies something

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Speaker 1: that's particularly fitting for a live event. what we get

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Speaker 1: wrong about the importance of social connection. Nick and I

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Speaker 1: had a chance to chat about the major takeaways from

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Speaker 1: his incredible new book, A Little More Social. But this time,

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Speaker 1: we also dug into something different, a topic that we

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Speaker 1: often take for granted in our busy social lives, the

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Speaker 1: subtle things we get wrong about one another when we

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Speaker 1: connect using modern technology, and what we can do to

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Speaker 1: communicate a bit more effectively. This was one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite conversations of the entire year, so I hope you

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Speaker 1: enjoy it too. Our minds are constantly telling us what

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Speaker 1: to do to be happy. But what if our minds

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Speaker 1: are wrong? What if our minds are lying to us,

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Speaker 1: leading us away from what will really make us happy?

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Speaker 1: The good news is that understanding the science of the

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Speaker 1: mind can point us all back in the right direction.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to The Happiness Lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos.

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Speaker 1: This time coming to you live from the World Happiness

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Speaker 1: Summit at South by Southwest. Welcome, Nick Epley! So, Nick,

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Speaker 1: your new book touches on what you've called a fundamental

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Speaker 1: paradox at the core of human life. What is that

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Speaker 1: fundamental paradox?

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Speaker 2: That paradox is that on the one hand, we are

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Speaker 2: highly social. This is not a new insight. Aristotle mentioned

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Speaker 2: this centuries ago. We're highly social animals. We're made happier

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Speaker 2: and healthier when we reach out and connect with each other.

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Speaker 1: And yet.

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Speaker 2: Look around outside in the world a little bit. There

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Speaker 2: are all kinds of opportunities that we have to reach

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Speaker 2: out and engage and connect with other people that we

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Speaker 2: seem not to take, right? We're reluctant to talk to strangers.

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Speaker 2: When we talk to people, we often type to them

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Speaker 2: rather than call them up on the phone and talk

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Speaker 2: with our own voices. Once we're talking, we're a little

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Speaker 2: reluctant to go deep. We stay in the shallow end

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Speaker 2: of the pool. We feel grateful to somebody, but we

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Speaker 2: don't express it to them. We are reluctant to share

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Speaker 2: our true selves with our relationship partners. And that seems odd, right?

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Speaker 2: That's paradoxical. Why is it Highly social animals like us,

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Speaker 2: made happier and healthier, connecting with other people would so

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Speaker 2: often be unsocial.

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Speaker 1: What are some of the negative consequences of this paradox

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Speaker 1: when it comes to our happiness?

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Speaker 2: Well, connecting with other people is the thing that enriches

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Speaker 2: our lives arguably the most, and we just miss a

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Speaker 2: lot of opportunities to make our lives a little bit better.

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Speaker 2: You're sitting in an airplane and somebody sits down next

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Speaker 2: to you, you've got your headphones in, You just missed

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Speaker 2: a chance to learn that somebody was one of nine

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Speaker 2: people to have been inside the North Korean nuclear arsenal,

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Speaker 2: which was a person I met on a plane one

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Speaker 2: time who worked for the Department of Energy. You might

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Speaker 2: have a moment where you're on a sidewalk and the

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Speaker 2: world feels a little cold and unpleasant. You could smile

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Speaker 2: to somebody, make that moment a little bit better. One

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Speaker 2: thing that psychologists have learned is that happiness, well-being in

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Speaker 2: life is really a product of the things that we do.

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Speaker 2: At least those are the things that we have under

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Speaker 2: some of our control. And there are lots of social

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Speaker 2: things that we could do to enrich our lives that

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Speaker 2: we are just choosing not to take. If I hadn't

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Speaker 2: talked to the man on the plane on the way

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Speaker 2: to DC that one time, I never would have had

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Speaker 2: that amazing conversation. So there are lots of opportunities we

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Speaker 2: can miss to make our lives better. We're just not

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Speaker 2: social enough for our own good. We're under social.

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Speaker 1: And so your new book, A Little More Social, is

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Speaker 1: kind of a guidebook for how to do this better.

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Speaker 1: And it starts, you argue, with this particular moment, this

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Speaker 1: individual decision point that we often get wrong. You call

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Speaker 1: it the choice. What are these choices and why are

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Speaker 1: they so important?

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Speaker 2: So I call it the choice because I think this

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Speaker 2: decision that we make to reach out and engage with

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Speaker 2: another person or hold back and avoid them, something we

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Speaker 2: do not just once a week or once a day,

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Speaker 2: but many times a day, is, I think, the most

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Speaker 2: important choice that we make over and over and over again.

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Speaker 2: When we're about to make the choice, at a distance,

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Speaker 2: it sounds easy. Oh yeah, I should connect with people more.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I should reach out to my old friend.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I should tell my wife just how much

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Speaker 2: she really means to me. And yet at the moment, well,

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure I got the words quite right. I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure I can do it. It'll be weird to

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Speaker 2: reach out to my old friend. I haven't met with

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Speaker 2: my band director in 30 years. He'll think it's awkward

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Speaker 2: that I'll call him up and tell him how much

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Speaker 2: he meant to me. And so, When it comes to

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Speaker 2: making that decision, we're often overly avoidant. But how we

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Speaker 2: make that choice governs the quality of your social relationships,

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Speaker 2: and as a result, governs a huge amount of our

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Speaker 2: well-being in our lives.

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Speaker 1: And so I imagine the audience, we have a few

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Speaker 1: Happiness Lab fans out there, right? OK. Let's see how

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Speaker 1: good of Happiness Lab fans you are. We're going to

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Speaker 1: see who remembers the Nick Epley under-sociality greatest hits from

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Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab. How many of you remember an episode

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Speaker 1: where we talked about how we don't talk to strangers

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Speaker 1: on the train? Anyone? So let's show our hands, OK?

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Speaker 1: How about one where we don't give enough compliments as

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Speaker 1: we should? How about cases where we don't ask for

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Speaker 1: help as much as we should? We should be asking

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Speaker 1: for help more often, yes. And another big one that

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Speaker 1: we mess up a lot, we don't check in on

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Speaker 1: our friends as much as we should. So Nick has

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Speaker 1: been on the show a lot talking about under-sociality, because

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Speaker 1: I think this is one of the biggest domains in

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Speaker 1: which our minds lie to us about happiness. But today,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about a different thing we mess up,

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Speaker 1: even when we make the choice to be social. So

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Speaker 1: sometimes we take this choice moment. We say, all right,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be social. But we do it wrong.

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Speaker 1: We do it badly. We get the how of social

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Speaker 1: connection wrong, too. And so, Nick, you've argued that one

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Speaker 1: reason we get the how of social connection wrong is

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Speaker 1: that we tend to focus on the wrong features of

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Speaker 1: social connection when we do it. What do you mean?

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Speaker 2: So our choices are guided by our beliefs or expectations

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Speaker 2: about the world. Standard model of economics assumes, for instance,

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Speaker 2: that we are rational in the sense that we make

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Speaker 2: choices that are aligned with our beliefs or our expectations.

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Speaker 2: The problem, though, is our expectations can't possibly be take

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Speaker 2: in everything that's going to happen to us in our experiences.

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Speaker 2: So our expectations are necessarily like impoverished snapshots of what

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Speaker 2: our experience is actually going to be like. Our expectations

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Speaker 2: are basically a picture, is one way to think about it.

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Speaker 2: But our lives unfold much more like a movie. And

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Speaker 2: I think the big challenge for us is that those

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Speaker 2: impoverished snapshots just miss some of the really important but

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Speaker 2: complicated features about social interaction that really draw us or

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Speaker 2: connect us with another person. And so our expectations are

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Speaker 2: driven a lot by the things that we can capture

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Speaker 2: in a snapshot. Things like, who am I going to

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Speaker 2: be talking with in this conversation? How well do I

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Speaker 2: know this person? What are we going to be talking about?

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Speaker 2: But our actual experience unfolds over time, from one moment

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Speaker 2: to the next over time. And that unfolding includes a

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Speaker 2: bunch of dynamic processes. There are all kinds of features

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Speaker 2: that have magnetic qualities, essentially, that pull us together, but

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Speaker 2: our expectations seem to be wildly insensitive to that. And

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Speaker 2: what that means is that we fail to appreciate just

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Speaker 2: how much how we connect matters for how well we

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Speaker 2: connect with another person.

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Speaker 1: And so to better understand why these dynamic features are

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Speaker 1: so important, we need to go back to the basics,

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Speaker 1: really just the very function of communication. And when we

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Speaker 1: think about conversation, I think we often assume it has

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Speaker 1: a very like semantic function. If you're a linguist, you

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Speaker 1: would use this word semantic, which basically means you're transferring information.

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Speaker 1: I'm telling you something about happiness in this conversation, for example.

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Speaker 1: But in your book, you argue that lots of conversations

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Speaker 1: aren't just about semantics. They're about what anthropologists have called

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Speaker 1: phatic communion. What is phatic communion?

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Speaker 2: Phatic communion was actually a term coined by Bronislaw Malinowski,

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Speaker 2: who was an anthropologist, also trained as a linguist. He

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Speaker 2: traveled to the Trebriand Islands in Papua New Guinea with

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Speaker 2: some theories that linguists had about how language functions and

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Speaker 2: what language was for. Why is it we talk to

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Speaker 2: each other? And all of those theories were based on

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Speaker 2: the content of language, like the words you would write down,

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Speaker 2: the semantic content. Because the belief was that we speak

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Speaker 2: to each other, we talk to each other. Language is

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Speaker 2: for communicating ideas, thoughts from my head to yours. That's

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Speaker 2: what it's for. And that made a whole lot of

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Speaker 2: sense to Malinowski when he started studying and watching what

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Speaker 2: they were actually doing. They communicated a lot of information, right?

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Speaker 2: Let's hunt over here. Let's plant this there. Let's go

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Speaker 2: cook that meal over there. They communicated a lot of

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Speaker 2: information to coordinate things. actions with each other. But then

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Speaker 2: there were a lot of things that folks did that

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Speaker 2: didn't make sense if you just think about language as information.

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Speaker 2: They would get together at the end of the day

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Speaker 2: and sit around a campfire and do the thing that

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Speaker 2: we all do at the end of the day when

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Speaker 2: we hang out with our friends. We talk about nothing.

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Speaker 2: Basically nothing is what happens, right? So people would sit

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Speaker 2: around the campfire and talk about kind of nothing. They

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Speaker 2: would say things like, oh, there you are, right? It's

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Speaker 2: a brilliant... Helpful communication. And I think his perspective as

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Speaker 2: an outsider on this allowed him to see that language

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Speaker 2: here wasn't functioning to communicate information. It was performing social connection,

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Speaker 2: is what essentially it was doing. It was bonding people together.

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Speaker 2: This language, this conversation wasn't passing along information. It was

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Speaker 2: passing along a hug. And he pretty quickly recognized, oh,

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Speaker 2: this is the same thing that we do in cocktail

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Speaker 2: parties in Europe, too. We get together and we talk

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Speaker 2: about the weather and essentially nothing. But that was a discovery.

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Speaker 2: He thought that was a fundamental discovery to the field,

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Speaker 2: to see language, spoken language in particular, operating in a

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Speaker 2: way that created social bonds, connected people with each other,

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Speaker 2: rather than just passed along information.

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Speaker 1: This doesn't seem like that big a discovery. Why did

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Speaker 1: we not recognize this before? What is it about our

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Speaker 1: minds that doesn't realize these functions?

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Speaker 2: I actually don't think it seems obvious. At a higher level,

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Speaker 2: when we think about this a little more carefully, it

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Speaker 2: kind of seems sort of clear. In practice, it turns

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Speaker 2: out to be very easy to overlook that feature. After all,

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Speaker 2: we're agents. We're thinking about what we're communicating. We're thinking

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Speaker 2: about how we're saying what we're saying. And a lot

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Speaker 2: of the other stuff that happens to connect people to

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Speaker 2: each other is stuff that we just aren't really paying

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Speaker 2: attention to in conversations.

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Speaker 1: So given that we aren't paying attention to it, help

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Speaker 1: us unpack the things that are going on during speech

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Speaker 1: that are these really important moments, these dynamic moments. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Can we do a little demonstration here? Yeah. You want

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Speaker 2: to do that?

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Speaker 1: You all want to do a demonstration? Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You do?

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: All right. So let's do the demonstration, and then we'll

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Speaker 2: unpack it. What I want you to do is I

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Speaker 2: want you to think about one of the most interesting

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Speaker 2: things that you have done recently. Okay? Think about one

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Speaker 2: of the most interesting things you have done recently. I

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Speaker 2: then want you to find somebody nearby, right? Somebody sitting

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Speaker 2: next to you. Ideally, somebody you don't know. Pair up

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Speaker 2: with that person, okay? So pair up with somebody right now.

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Speaker 2: Find a partner.

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Speaker 1: Listeners in the audience, everyone in the room is awkwardly

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Speaker 1: looking around to the people near them to try to

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Speaker 1: figure out.

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Speaker 2: Everybody's having a heart attack right now. Do I actually

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Speaker 2: have to talk with a person? All right, find another person, okay?

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Speaker 1: Okay, listeners, people are found.

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Speaker 2: You need to identify which person in the group is

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Speaker 2: person A and which person in the group is B, okay?

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Speaker 2: Identify one of you as person A and another as

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Speaker 2: person B. Now, here's what I need you to do. Okay,

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Speaker 2: person A, you're going to tell your story of the

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Speaker 2: most interesting thing you've done recently. Person B, I want

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Speaker 2: you to turn your back to the person so that

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Speaker 2: person A talks to the hair, all right? So this

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Speaker 2: is the talk to the hair demonstration. Person B, turn

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Speaker 2: your back to the person so you're talking to the hair,

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Speaker 2: all right? And I want you to spend a minute

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Speaker 2: telling that person The most interesting thing you have done recently.

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Speaker 2: Go talk to the hair. Go.

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Speaker 1: Hey, Happiness Lab listeners. Present day Laurie stepping in here

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Speaker 1: to let you know just how this little talk to

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Speaker 1: the hair experiment went. It was, in a word, uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: Nick and I watched from the stage as the audience

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Speaker 1: struggled to tell interesting stories to the back of their

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Speaker 1: neighbor's head.

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Speaker 2: All right, all right, all right. I think, is that

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Speaker 2: awkward enough now? Have we done enough of that?

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Speaker 1: Give us a clap if you thought that was a

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Speaker 1: little awkward. Okay, everybody's clapping.

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Speaker 2: Good, good. So now what we're going to do, let's

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Speaker 2: turn it around. Now person B, I want you to

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Speaker 2: face person A. Now you can actually talk to each

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Speaker 2: other face-to-face. Person B, I would like you now to

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Speaker 2: share the most interesting thing you did with person A,

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Speaker 2: and you can talk face-to-face.

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Speaker 1: Present-day Laurie again narrating how this challenge went. This time

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Speaker 1: our audience was not feeling awkward. They seemed to love it.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I kind of worried we might have lost

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Speaker 1: the audience's attention for good.

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Speaker 2: All right, everybody. Let's bring it on back here. You

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Speaker 2: can continue the rest of that conversation later if you

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Speaker 2: would like to.

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Speaker 1: We are witnessing something that happens in Nick Lepley's research,

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Speaker 1: which is that when you have people do a deep conversation,

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Speaker 1: they don't want to shut up. Hey, folks, live podcast

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Speaker 1: happening up here. Woo-woo!

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's what happens. People are reluctant to talk, but

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Speaker 2: once you get people talking, it's very hard to get

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Speaker 2: people to stop.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Nick, so what we did in the talk to

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Speaker 1: the hair demo is we took away this dynamic moment-to-moment feedback.

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Speaker 1: What does the research show that does to conversation?

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Speaker 2: When you're talking face-to-face, there's a whole lot of things

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Speaker 2: that are going on in that interaction that are pulling

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Speaker 2: you close together, and you felt it missing when you

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Speaker 2: were talking to the hair, okay? We often think that communication,

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Speaker 2: conversation back and forth, it's like a tennis match, you know?

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Speaker 2: I speak, and then the other person speaks, and then

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Speaker 2: one person speaks, then another person speaks. But if you

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Speaker 2: actually take conversation and you videotape it, or you put

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Speaker 2: the lines down on a spreadsheet, which of course researchers love,

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Speaker 2: because we're all about the spreadsheet, it's a lot noisier

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Speaker 2: and messier than that. So there are lots of other

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Speaker 2: things that are going on, things that don't have to

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Speaker 2: do with what one person is saying. So when you're

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Speaker 2: talking face to face, you do things that are called

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Speaker 2: back channeling. Mm-hmm, yeah, mm-hmm, mm. You're doing that while

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Speaker 2: another person is speaking. And it seems like that is

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Speaker 2: just kind of irrelevant stuff. Like it doesn't matter that much.

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Speaker 2: That's actually glue in conversation that pulls you together. It

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Speaker 2: tells you the other person is listening, that they're paying attention,

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Speaker 2: that they are attending to you. They're affirming what you're saying.

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Speaker 2: If they're confused about something, they'll say, hmm. And it'll

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Speaker 2: allow you to clarify what you're saying. That back channeling

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Speaker 2: is critical. When you take it away, the other person

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Speaker 2: just seems like they're not paying attention, and you lose

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Speaker 2: some sense of connection. There are all kinds of facial

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Speaker 2: expressions that are going on, right? You're talking, and they're

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Speaker 2: smiling back at you. They're giving you eye contact. They're

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Speaker 2: nodding right now, right? And that makes it clear that

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Speaker 2: that person's paying attention to you. All of those cues

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Speaker 2: connect you with the other person in conversation. Those are

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Speaker 2: all the social ties that bind in conversation. And when

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Speaker 2: you strip them away, all you're left with is the text,

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Speaker 2: is the semantic content. And that's not what really connects

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Speaker 2: us in conversation.

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Speaker 1: So that how of social connection, that dynamic feedback we're getting,

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Speaker 1: it matters to whether or not we feel connected. But

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Speaker 1: of course, how we connect is changing. Dun dun dun.

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Speaker 1: When we get back from the break, we're gonna take

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Speaker 1: a look at how new forms of modern technology may

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Speaker 1: be impeding the way we connect in ways that our

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Speaker 1: lying minds don't realize. The Happiness Lab will be right back.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back from the break. Happiness Lab Live at South

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Speaker 1: by Southwest at the World Happiness Summit. Okay, since we're

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Speaker 1: doing this live episode, we're going to demo a new

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Speaker 1: feature on the podcast. Are you ready? It is called

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Speaker 1: Happiness Lab History Lesson. Today's Happiness Lab History Lesson is

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Speaker 1: a timeline of shining moments in the evolution of human communication.

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Speaker 1: 300,000-ish B.C., we start to see the first evidence of

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Speaker 1: the first anatomically modern humans, who also have an anatomically

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Speaker 1: modern vocal track. Live, synchronous, face-to-face vocal communication is born.

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Speaker 1: And then we wait a very long time, because that

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Speaker 1: was all we had for a very long time, until

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Speaker 1: 3,000-ish BC. People begin writing stuff down in cuneiform, clay tablets. Mostly,

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Speaker 1: it's boring accounting records. People like Sumerian royalty and officials

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Speaker 1: begin using this form of written communication to correspond with

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Speaker 1: one another. We now get the cuneiform version of, I

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Speaker 1: hope this tablet finds you well, and why have you

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Speaker 1: not replied to my previous tablet? 3000-ish BC, humans develop

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Speaker 1: a papyrus, early form of paper. The elite can now

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Speaker 1: write even more letters to one another. But it's only

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Speaker 1: rich folks until around 1000 CE, when paper becomes more widespread,

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Speaker 1: people from lots of backgrounds begin writing to one another.

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Speaker 1: And that was the best we had until 1844 CE,

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Speaker 1: Samuel Morse sends the first telegraphic message via electric pulses

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Speaker 1: from DC to Baltimore. That telegraph read, what hath God wrought? 1876,

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Speaker 1: Alexander Graham Bell makes the first telephone call transmitting the

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Speaker 1: human voice electronically for the first time. That call went

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Speaker 1: out to his assistant and Bell said, Mr. Watson, come here.

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Speaker 1: I want to see you. Then we fast forward to

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Speaker 1: 1971 when Tomlinson sends the first networked email. It was

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Speaker 1: alleged to have said, in all caps, which is the

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Speaker 1: top letters, was not the most impressive first email, but

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Speaker 1: there you have it. 1973, Motorola engineer Martin Cooper made

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Speaker 1: the first cell phone call from the streets of New York,

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Speaker 1: allegedly calling and saying, I'm calling you from a cell phone,

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Speaker 1: a real cell phone. Nobody realized they were making these like,

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Speaker 1: you know, walk on the moon moments in human communication,

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Speaker 1: but anyway. 1992, British engineer Neil Papworth sends the first

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Speaker 1: asynchronous written text message to the cell phone of his boss,

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Speaker 1: who was at a holiday party. What did the text

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Speaker 1: message say? Merry Christmas. By the start of the new millennium,

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Speaker 1: new developments continue quite rapidly. First video call on Skype, 2005.

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Speaker 1: First social media post on Facebook, 2004. First tweet on

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Speaker 1: Twitter in 2006, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, up

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Speaker 1: till today when we get the first AI-written work emails,

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Speaker 1: which I don't love, I have to say. Happy to

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Speaker 1: slap history lesson. Wasn't that super fun? The point of

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Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab history lesson was for you to see

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Speaker 1: just how rapidly this how of communication has changed. And Nick,

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Speaker 1: you have argued that this change has introduced something novel

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Speaker 1: to the human species, which for hundreds of thousands of

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Speaker 1: years wasn't there, which is that not only do we

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Speaker 1: need to make a choice about whether to communicate, now

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Speaker 1: for the first time in the human species, we have

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Speaker 1: the choice about how to communicate. Why is that so important?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we now get to decide, do I talk

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Speaker 2: to somebody face to face? use something that shares my

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Speaker 2: actual voice? I can use a phone for actually what

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Speaker 2: it's good for, to share my voice using my face parts, right?

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Speaker 2: Actually to talk to somebody. I can type to somebody

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Speaker 2: anywhere in the world, right? And now we've got to

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Speaker 2: decide how we're going to engage with somebody. It turns

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Speaker 2: out that choice matters a lot because how you choose

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Speaker 2: to connect with somebody is matters a lot for how

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Speaker 2: connected you actually ended up being with another person. And

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Speaker 2: if we're not fully aware of exactly what the consequences

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Speaker 2: of those choices are, that we run the risk of

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Speaker 2: choosing unwisely. We'll use a medium that's not right for

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Speaker 2: the message that we're trying to convey, or we'll misunderstand

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Speaker 2: each other in problematic ways.

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Speaker 1: I mean, in some ways, all these new forms of

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Speaker 1: communication are probably pluses for human society.

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Speaker 2: Sure, for sure.

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Speaker 1: We can talk to people who are far away. We

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Speaker 1: can talk to people at different times. We can leave

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Speaker 1: writing to people in future generations. But you talked about

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Speaker 1: the big problem, which is that we assume that these

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Speaker 1: forms of communication are all going to work the same.

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Speaker 1: But what does the research actually show?

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Speaker 2: So our data suggests that when people are choosing to

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Speaker 2: connect with another person or not, They typically think that

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Speaker 2: the way another person is going to respond to a

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Speaker 2: given form of communication is kind of consistent, whether they're

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Speaker 2: talking to somebody, say, or typing to another person. But

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Speaker 2: when you're talking to somebody, that's very powerful. They understand

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Speaker 2: the other person better. They communicate what's on their mind

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Speaker 2: better to the other person. They feel more connected to

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Speaker 2: the other person. If we don't appreciate how the context

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Speaker 2: or the medium through which we communicate is going to

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Speaker 2: connect us, we're going to make mistakes.

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Speaker 1: And so one thing that we forget about this medium

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Speaker 1: of connection and how important it is, is the idea

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Speaker 1: of synchronicity, right? Which is that we're actually talking in

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Speaker 1: real time to one another. And you did a study

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Speaker 1: where you tested this, where you had people interact in

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Speaker 1: different ways. I'm thinking about the monologue study. What did

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Speaker 1: you find?

431
00:21:47,616 --> 00:21:49,476
Speaker 2: So in our research, the way we would test this,

432
00:21:49,516 --> 00:21:52,636
Speaker 2: for instance, is we put people into a simple situation

433
00:21:52,656 --> 00:21:54,596
Speaker 2: where you're going to have a conversation with another person.

434
00:21:54,876 --> 00:21:56,736
Speaker 2: Just like you did a moment ago. We give everybody

435
00:21:56,776 --> 00:21:59,196
Speaker 2: the same series of questions. And we tell them, in

436
00:21:59,216 --> 00:22:00,636
Speaker 2: just a minute, what you're going to do is you're

437
00:22:00,656 --> 00:22:03,396
Speaker 2: going to answer all of these questions. And then you're

438
00:22:03,416 --> 00:22:06,586
Speaker 2: going to watch your partner answering those same questions. And

439
00:22:06,726 --> 00:22:08,926
Speaker 2: what we want you to do is anticipate how connected

440
00:22:08,946 --> 00:22:10,766
Speaker 2: you're going to feel this person, how much you think

441
00:22:10,786 --> 00:22:13,046
Speaker 2: you're going to like this person, how much in common

442
00:22:13,066 --> 00:22:15,176
Speaker 2: do you think you have with this person. Essentially, how

443
00:22:15,256 --> 00:22:18,486
Speaker 2: positive is the conversation going to be? And we vary

444
00:22:18,506 --> 00:22:20,746
Speaker 2: in our experiment how you're going to connect with that

445
00:22:20,806 --> 00:22:23,546
Speaker 2: other person, right? So one condition is the monologue condition.

446
00:22:23,926 --> 00:22:26,506
Speaker 2: I'm talking and then I watch you talk. In the

447
00:22:26,646 --> 00:22:31,006
Speaker 2: other condition, it's a dialogue condition. We're answering those same questions,

448
00:22:31,476 --> 00:22:33,936
Speaker 2: but we're going back and forth in live conversation, in

449
00:22:33,976 --> 00:22:38,656
Speaker 2: an actual voice interaction, okay? They anticipate how they're going

450
00:22:38,676 --> 00:22:40,656
Speaker 2: to feel afterwards and then we measure how they actually

451
00:22:40,696 --> 00:22:44,956
Speaker 2: feel afterwards. Now, Two things are interesting here in this

452
00:22:45,016 --> 00:22:47,716
Speaker 2: experiment to me. One is there was no significant difference

453
00:22:48,016 --> 00:22:51,066
Speaker 2: between those two conditions and how they expected to feel afterwards,

454
00:22:51,106 --> 00:22:53,946
Speaker 2: suggesting that they didn't think that whether they were having

455
00:22:53,986 --> 00:22:57,426
Speaker 2: a monologue with the other person, which contains none of

456
00:22:57,466 --> 00:23:00,586
Speaker 2: the paralinguistic or dynamic cues that you just experienced a

457
00:23:00,606 --> 00:23:02,766
Speaker 2: bit ago when you were talking face to face. They

458
00:23:02,786 --> 00:23:05,626
Speaker 2: didn't think that would matter compared to having a dialogue. Essentially,

459
00:23:05,666 --> 00:23:08,236
Speaker 2: they thought talking to the hare would be just as

460
00:23:08,266 --> 00:23:11,476
Speaker 2: good as talking face to face, essentially. Their actual experience,

461
00:23:11,496 --> 00:23:13,476
Speaker 2: of course, did not show that at all. Their actual

462
00:23:13,516 --> 00:23:17,076
Speaker 2: experience was that a dialogue was a much more positive

463
00:23:17,116 --> 00:23:19,896
Speaker 2: experience than a monologue. And this is, when I say

464
00:23:19,936 --> 00:23:23,276
Speaker 2: people don't seem to appreciate the power or the importance

465
00:23:23,296 --> 00:23:25,916
Speaker 2: of how connecting with another person is going to matter,

466
00:23:26,316 --> 00:23:28,416
Speaker 2: for how connected they feel to the person at the end.

467
00:23:28,656 --> 00:23:32,096
Speaker 2: This is what I mean. In fact, another interesting, maybe

468
00:23:32,256 --> 00:23:34,276
Speaker 2: one of the most interesting things to come out of

469
00:23:34,296 --> 00:23:37,276
Speaker 2: this experiment is that we asked people after the conversation

470
00:23:37,716 --> 00:23:39,576
Speaker 2: how good a friend they thought they could be with

471
00:23:39,646 --> 00:23:42,346
Speaker 2: a person they talked to. And they thought they could

472
00:23:42,386 --> 00:23:44,906
Speaker 2: be a better friend with the person they had a

473
00:23:45,306 --> 00:23:48,346
Speaker 2: dialogue with than the person they had a monologue with. Now,

474
00:23:48,946 --> 00:23:52,766
Speaker 2: that's a mistake. That's a mistake because you were randomly

475
00:23:52,826 --> 00:23:56,916
Speaker 2: assigned to those two experiences. So it is not the case,

476
00:23:57,236 --> 00:23:59,156
Speaker 2: it cannot be the case, that you would be a

477
00:23:59,176 --> 00:24:01,116
Speaker 2: better friend with the person you had a dialogue with

478
00:24:01,136 --> 00:24:03,096
Speaker 2: than you had a monologue with. But if we fail

479
00:24:03,156 --> 00:24:06,796
Speaker 2: to appreciate the context, the way in which we are

480
00:24:06,936 --> 00:24:09,696
Speaker 2: connecting with someone, how we're connecting with someone is affecting

481
00:24:09,756 --> 00:24:12,386
Speaker 2: our experience, we're going to draw the wrong conclusions. So

482
00:24:12,406 --> 00:24:15,326
Speaker 2: if you only talk to folks who are similar to you,

483
00:24:15,856 --> 00:24:18,956
Speaker 2: but you're typing to people or you're listening to monologues

484
00:24:18,976 --> 00:24:21,446
Speaker 2: from people who disagree with you, it's probably no wonder

485
00:24:21,486 --> 00:24:23,086
Speaker 2: you think you could never be friends with them. You've

486
00:24:23,126 --> 00:24:25,806
Speaker 2: never actually had a conversation with them. And I think

487
00:24:25,846 --> 00:24:29,146
Speaker 2: that's another important thing that can come out of misunderstanding

488
00:24:29,526 --> 00:24:32,046
Speaker 2: how the context of communication matters. We draw the wrong

489
00:24:32,086 --> 00:24:32,826
Speaker 2: inferences from them.

490
00:24:33,846 --> 00:24:37,126
Speaker 1: And so that's the importance of the live synchronous part.

491
00:24:37,266 --> 00:24:39,286
Speaker 1: But another thing I was really struck by in your book,

492
00:24:39,366 --> 00:24:41,566
Speaker 1: and I had to say it warmed this very audio

493
00:24:41,586 --> 00:24:47,186
Speaker 1: podcaster's heart, was Research showing the importance of the voice

494
00:24:47,286 --> 00:24:49,466
Speaker 1: and the power of the voice, that when the voice

495
00:24:49,526 --> 00:24:52,486
Speaker 1: is present, communication just goes better. Why does hearing the

496
00:24:52,526 --> 00:24:53,766
Speaker 1: voice matter so much?

497
00:24:54,246 --> 00:24:56,906
Speaker 2: So this is voice compared to text alone, right? So

498
00:24:56,926 --> 00:24:59,326
Speaker 2: let's start with text, just semantic content. This is what

499
00:24:59,386 --> 00:25:04,056
Speaker 2: Malinowski thought communication was all about. It contains all, we

500
00:25:04,116 --> 00:25:06,796
Speaker 2: think at least, it contains all the meat of what

501
00:25:06,816 --> 00:25:10,756
Speaker 2: we're communicating. It turns out it doesn't. Your voice contains

502
00:25:11,336 --> 00:25:14,026
Speaker 2: a lot more information. It can allow you to see

503
00:25:14,046 --> 00:25:18,026
Speaker 2: whether somebody's being sarcastic or serious. Our voice contains intonation,

504
00:25:18,406 --> 00:25:20,306
Speaker 2: so the pitch goes up and down. Mine is going

505
00:25:20,376 --> 00:25:23,016
Speaker 2: up and down a lot, right? One thing that Lori

506
00:25:23,036 --> 00:25:26,076
Speaker 2: complains about with me as a podcast guest.

507
00:25:26,096 --> 00:25:28,756
Speaker 1: Sometimes he gets so into it and he screams into

508
00:25:28,796 --> 00:25:31,306
Speaker 1: the mic. But that tells you Nick is really emotional

509
00:25:31,346 --> 00:25:32,466
Speaker 1: about what he's talking about sometimes.

510
00:25:33,926 --> 00:25:37,006
Speaker 2: Stop popping your peas is what a podcast host will

511
00:25:37,026 --> 00:25:39,446
Speaker 2: tell you when you do what I do too much.

512
00:25:39,626 --> 00:25:40,986
Speaker 1: You're doing great today.

513
00:25:41,286 --> 00:25:43,786
Speaker 2: Your volume goes up and down. You speed up and

514
00:25:43,846 --> 00:25:46,806
Speaker 2: slow down. Your voice has life in it. And it's

515
00:25:46,866 --> 00:25:50,926
Speaker 2: the variability in those cues, the dynamic features in those cues,

516
00:25:50,946 --> 00:25:52,506
Speaker 2: which is the same thing that you saw a moment

517
00:25:52,546 --> 00:25:55,316
Speaker 2: ago when you talked with each other with back channeling

518
00:25:55,396 --> 00:25:58,076
Speaker 2: and the responsiveness that you get. Your voice contains a

519
00:25:58,116 --> 00:26:01,496
Speaker 2: lot of cues that give you information far beyond just

520
00:26:01,536 --> 00:26:04,236
Speaker 2: the content of what you're saying. A lot of what

521
00:26:04,276 --> 00:26:06,336
Speaker 2: you do with your body is redundant with what you're

522
00:26:06,356 --> 00:26:09,076
Speaker 2: doing with your voice. So all of our hand movements,

523
00:26:09,736 --> 00:26:12,646
Speaker 2: all of the flailing around that we do, right? Laurie

524
00:26:12,706 --> 00:26:16,626
Speaker 2: leaned forward when she was imitating my overly enthusiastic self.

525
00:26:16,846 --> 00:26:19,106
Speaker 2: You could have gotten that enthusiasm just from her voice.

526
00:26:19,566 --> 00:26:22,466
Speaker 2: You didn't need her body for that. And so the

527
00:26:22,506 --> 00:26:25,546
Speaker 2: voice is really what carries what's on your mind.

528
00:26:26,286 --> 00:26:28,266
Speaker 1: This seems obvious when you're saying it, but you've also

529
00:26:28,306 --> 00:26:30,666
Speaker 1: done some really cool empirical work to show just how

530
00:26:30,726 --> 00:26:32,706
Speaker 1: powerful this can be and just how powerful this can

531
00:26:32,726 --> 00:26:35,126
Speaker 1: be in domains where we really do want to connect

532
00:26:35,146 --> 00:26:36,526
Speaker 1: a little bit better. So tell me a little bit

533
00:26:36,546 --> 00:26:38,976
Speaker 1: about the 2016 election study that you did, where you

534
00:26:38,996 --> 00:26:39,956
Speaker 1: showed the power of the voice.

535
00:26:40,456 --> 00:26:43,476
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the voice, it turns out, doesn't just clarify

536
00:26:43,516 --> 00:26:45,716
Speaker 2: what's on your mind. You're able to tell whether somebody's

537
00:26:45,756 --> 00:26:49,056
Speaker 2: being serious or sarcastic, for instance. But it also clarifies

538
00:26:49,076 --> 00:26:52,126
Speaker 2: that you actually have a mind, that you're thinking, that

539
00:26:52,146 --> 00:26:56,426
Speaker 2: you're feeling, that you're processing information, that you're alive on

540
00:26:56,446 --> 00:26:59,446
Speaker 2: the inside. How do I tell whether you're alive biologically?

541
00:26:59,466 --> 00:27:01,906
Speaker 2: I look to see if you're moving. But your voice

542
00:27:01,986 --> 00:27:03,746
Speaker 2: also moves. It goes up and down. It speeds up

543
00:27:03,806 --> 00:27:07,206
Speaker 2: and slows down. And therefore, the inferences that we draw

544
00:27:07,586 --> 00:27:10,956
Speaker 2: from hearing somebody else's voice ought to show some fingerprints

545
00:27:11,396 --> 00:27:14,376
Speaker 2: of that relatively lively mind, or if we strip the

546
00:27:14,416 --> 00:27:17,956
Speaker 2: voice out, a more dead mind. And we sometimes use

547
00:27:17,996 --> 00:27:20,676
Speaker 2: the word humanization to talk about this effect because it

548
00:27:20,696 --> 00:27:23,576
Speaker 2: turns out the thing that people tend to think is

549
00:27:23,616 --> 00:27:27,416
Speaker 2: a key feature of humanity is the presence of a thoughtful, intelligent,

550
00:27:27,796 --> 00:27:31,006
Speaker 2: rational mind. And so in this experiment that Laurie just

551
00:27:31,046 --> 00:27:34,166
Speaker 2: mentioned just before the 2016 election, remember this was Hillary

552
00:27:34,306 --> 00:27:39,056
Speaker 2: Clinton against Donald Trump, we had Clinton voters and we

553
00:27:39,096 --> 00:27:44,096
Speaker 2: had Trump voters just before the election explain why they

554
00:27:44,136 --> 00:27:48,196
Speaker 2: were voting for Clinton or voting for Trump. We then,

555
00:27:48,216 --> 00:27:52,026
Speaker 2: in the days leading up to the election, We took

556
00:27:52,086 --> 00:27:56,596
Speaker 2: those explanations. These were spoken and recorded in video form.

557
00:27:57,216 --> 00:28:00,636
Speaker 2: We showed people either the video of the person speaking,

558
00:28:00,716 --> 00:28:03,356
Speaker 2: explaining their position, why they were voting as they were.

559
00:28:03,946 --> 00:28:06,466
Speaker 2: We stripped the video out and just played the audio.

560
00:28:07,286 --> 00:28:09,826
Speaker 2: We stripped the voice and the video out and just

561
00:28:09,906 --> 00:28:13,636
Speaker 2: used the transcript. Or we had people write an explanation

562
00:28:14,006 --> 00:28:17,346
Speaker 2: for why they were voting for this person. And then

563
00:28:17,386 --> 00:28:21,036
Speaker 2: we showed one of those different pieces of stimuli to

564
00:28:21,556 --> 00:28:25,976
Speaker 2: either Clinton voters or Trump voters. And we had them

565
00:28:26,116 --> 00:28:30,316
Speaker 2: report their impression of the person. Essentially say, how human

566
00:28:30,446 --> 00:28:32,946
Speaker 2: are they? How mindful are they? How thoughtful are they?

567
00:28:32,986 --> 00:28:35,866
Speaker 2: How rational are they? How intelligent are they? How capable

568
00:28:35,966 --> 00:28:39,386
Speaker 2: are they of feeling certain emotions? And what we found

569
00:28:39,466 --> 00:28:41,926
Speaker 2: is that when you agreed with somebody, you tended to

570
00:28:41,966 --> 00:28:44,526
Speaker 2: think that they were more thoughtful and more rational, more mindful,

571
00:28:44,586 --> 00:28:47,426
Speaker 2: more human-like than people who disagreed with you. But this

572
00:28:47,466 --> 00:28:51,216
Speaker 2: was moderated a lot by the context in which you

573
00:28:51,256 --> 00:28:55,916
Speaker 2: got the information. When you could hear somebody explain their

574
00:28:55,976 --> 00:28:59,736
Speaker 2: point of view compared to just reading it, they seem

575
00:28:59,776 --> 00:29:03,846
Speaker 2: more mindful, more thoughtful, more intelligent, more rational, more human-like.

576
00:29:04,246 --> 00:29:06,166
Speaker 2: Whether they agreed with you or disagreed with you, but

577
00:29:06,186 --> 00:29:09,546
Speaker 2: the effect was particularly big when they disagreed with you.

578
00:29:10,126 --> 00:29:13,756
Speaker 2: Hearing somebody articulate why they were voting for a candidate

579
00:29:13,796 --> 00:29:17,096
Speaker 2: you did not support, when you were just reading what

580
00:29:17,116 --> 00:29:20,276
Speaker 2: they had to say, they kind of seemed like mindless idiots.

581
00:29:21,076 --> 00:29:23,846
Speaker 2: But when you heard what they had to say, they

582
00:29:23,886 --> 00:29:27,686
Speaker 2: seemed more thoughtful. less like mindless idiots, and more like

583
00:29:27,726 --> 00:29:30,396
Speaker 2: folks who had some reason for what they're doing, could think,

584
00:29:30,756 --> 00:29:34,396
Speaker 2: could feel things. And I think that is really profound, right?

585
00:29:34,416 --> 00:29:38,116
Speaker 2: So the kind of animosity that we feel across the

586
00:29:38,156 --> 00:29:43,106
Speaker 2: political divide, the kind of hatred we feel sometimes for

587
00:29:43,226 --> 00:29:46,306
Speaker 2: people who think differently from us, can come in part

588
00:29:46,706 --> 00:29:49,656
Speaker 2: from the way in which we hear or do not hear,

589
00:29:49,716 --> 00:29:52,676
Speaker 2: just read what their point of view is. And at

590
00:29:52,696 --> 00:29:55,056
Speaker 2: least for me, it was hard to escape the conclusion

591
00:29:55,096 --> 00:29:58,016
Speaker 2: that just typing to each other is a little bit dehumanizing,

592
00:29:58,656 --> 00:30:01,476
Speaker 2: that it just makes you seem kind of like an idiot,

593
00:30:02,076 --> 00:30:05,636
Speaker 2: kind of just not so alive on the inside compared

594
00:30:05,656 --> 00:30:09,916
Speaker 2: to actually hearing somebody say something through their voice. Exact

595
00:30:09,956 --> 00:30:12,376
Speaker 2: same words. Sound more mindful when you hear what somebody

596
00:30:12,396 --> 00:30:12,836
Speaker 2: has to say.

597
00:30:13,636 --> 00:30:15,316
Speaker 1: And so you mentioned in that study that there was

598
00:30:15,376 --> 00:30:18,296
Speaker 1: another condition that you didn't give the results for. You

599
00:30:18,336 --> 00:30:21,136
Speaker 1: mentioned the audio condition versus the written condition. But there

600
00:30:21,156 --> 00:30:24,216
Speaker 1: was also this video condition. What happens when you add

601
00:30:24,296 --> 00:30:26,136
Speaker 1: video to the voice? Do people connect better?

602
00:30:26,396 --> 00:30:26,636
Speaker 2: Nothing.

603
00:30:27,456 --> 00:30:27,776
Speaker 1: Nothing.

604
00:30:28,336 --> 00:30:30,516
Speaker 2: It was the same. At least in terms of how

605
00:30:30,576 --> 00:30:34,056
Speaker 2: mindful the person seemed, the impressions didn't vary. Again, I

606
00:30:34,596 --> 00:30:37,866
Speaker 2: think what's happening here is at least when you're watching

607
00:30:37,926 --> 00:30:40,196
Speaker 2: a video, that video that you can see, the nonverbal

608
00:30:40,236 --> 00:30:43,296
Speaker 2: stuff that you can see, isn't adding a lot over

609
00:30:43,316 --> 00:30:46,596
Speaker 2: and above the voice. When it comes to understanding what's

610
00:30:46,696 --> 00:30:48,836
Speaker 2: on the mind of another person or that they even

611
00:30:48,896 --> 00:30:52,046
Speaker 2: have one that's functioning, the voice has it.

612
00:30:53,096 --> 00:30:56,406
Speaker 1: Little PSA for podcasters who are moving to the video format.

613
00:30:56,526 --> 00:30:58,746
Speaker 1: It doesn't actually make you seem more human or have

614
00:30:58,786 --> 00:31:02,286
Speaker 1: ideas that are more interesting. Audio podcasts here to stay.

615
00:31:02,326 --> 00:31:03,926
Speaker 1: Don't we think audio podcasts should be here to stay?

616
00:31:06,836 --> 00:31:09,056
Speaker 1: It's sad. No one reads Nick's work in the podcast world.

617
00:31:09,096 --> 00:31:10,916
Speaker 1: We're all going to video, and that's where we're going.

618
00:31:10,956 --> 00:31:13,176
Speaker 1: But it doesn't matter if you have the video or not. OK.

619
00:31:13,576 --> 00:31:16,786
Speaker 1: So all this work points to a somewhat scary conclusion,

620
00:31:16,826 --> 00:31:18,926
Speaker 1: given how we tend to communicate in the modern world.

621
00:31:19,346 --> 00:31:23,926
Speaker 1: And that scary conclusion is that text-based asynchronous interactions are

622
00:31:24,126 --> 00:31:28,666
Speaker 1: ever so subtly dehumanizing. Not good. What are the consequences

623
00:31:28,726 --> 00:31:31,066
Speaker 1: of the fact that we can't read people's minds as

624
00:31:31,126 --> 00:31:33,426
Speaker 1: well from text? Do we have to do it the

625
00:31:33,486 --> 00:31:36,676
Speaker 1: old school way? Well, when we get back from the break,

626
00:31:36,736 --> 00:31:39,056
Speaker 1: Nick will share his tips on how we can connect better,

627
00:31:39,236 --> 00:31:41,576
Speaker 1: maybe even over text. We will find out when the

628
00:31:41,616 --> 00:31:44,086
Speaker 1: Happiness Lab comes back from the break. Happiness Lab is

629
00:31:44,106 --> 00:31:57,226
Speaker 1: South by Southwest and World Happiness Summit. So Nick, what

630
00:31:57,246 --> 00:31:59,856
Speaker 1: can we do to communicate better in the modern world?

631
00:32:00,346 --> 00:32:04,066
Speaker 1: Do we need to abandon all these non-synchronous technologies like

632
00:32:04,106 --> 00:32:06,186
Speaker 1: texting and emailing? Do we want to get rid of them?

633
00:32:06,946 --> 00:32:09,506
Speaker 2: No, for sure not. I mean, I think different media

634
00:32:09,546 --> 00:32:12,146
Speaker 2: work for different things. So if I'm going to send

635
00:32:12,206 --> 00:32:15,416
Speaker 2: one of my PhD students, or more likely, they're going

636
00:32:15,436 --> 00:32:17,896
Speaker 2: to send me the data from some experiment that we

637
00:32:17,936 --> 00:32:19,916
Speaker 2: just ran, I don't want them calling me on the

638
00:32:19,956 --> 00:32:22,296
Speaker 2: phone and reading it line by line. That's not going

639
00:32:22,316 --> 00:32:25,356
Speaker 2: to be helpful for that. Or if there's a recipe

640
00:32:25,376 --> 00:32:27,616
Speaker 2: somebody's going to pass along, I'd like that in text.

641
00:32:27,676 --> 00:32:31,466
Speaker 2: So communication's a tool. And the media we use are

642
00:32:31,506 --> 00:32:34,306
Speaker 2: tools to communicate in ways that are consistent with our goals.

643
00:32:34,736 --> 00:32:37,416
Speaker 2: I think the risk is that if we don't fully

644
00:32:37,456 --> 00:32:40,956
Speaker 2: appreciate what these different communication media are actually doing, we

645
00:32:40,996 --> 00:32:44,196
Speaker 2: might use the tool incorrectly. So today is my son

646
00:32:44,416 --> 00:32:51,146
Speaker 2: Habtamu's 21st birthday. Happy birthday, Habtamu. He will love it

647
00:32:51,246 --> 00:32:54,846
Speaker 2: much more when we call him and sing, happy birthday

648
00:32:54,946 --> 00:32:57,306
Speaker 2: to you. He will love that much more, yes. But

649
00:32:57,606 --> 00:32:59,106
Speaker 2: at 6 o'clock in the morning when I got up

650
00:32:59,146 --> 00:33:01,806
Speaker 2: this morning and my wife got up this morning, he

651
00:33:01,846 --> 00:33:03,676
Speaker 2: was not up for a phone call from us, right?

652
00:33:03,756 --> 00:33:06,116
Speaker 2: So we all send him a note, happy birthday, Abtamu,

653
00:33:06,156 --> 00:33:08,116
Speaker 2: and the siblings did too, and that was lovely. So

654
00:33:08,136 --> 00:33:11,276
Speaker 2: there's a place for that for sure when things are hard,

655
00:33:11,316 --> 00:33:13,256
Speaker 2: you know, you've got a lot going on, particularly if

656
00:33:13,276 --> 00:33:15,556
Speaker 2: you know somebody. Text works very well. I'm sure we've

657
00:33:15,576 --> 00:33:17,466
Speaker 2: got many parents in this room who are happy to

658
00:33:17,526 --> 00:33:20,546
Speaker 2: have text communication with their kids. I think the mistake, though,

659
00:33:20,606 --> 00:33:23,066
Speaker 2: is that there are times where it would be easy

660
00:33:23,346 --> 00:33:25,266
Speaker 2: to pick up the phone and reach out and call

661
00:33:25,306 --> 00:33:28,416
Speaker 2: an old friend. And we don't. We text to them instead,

662
00:33:28,736 --> 00:33:31,276
Speaker 2: or we type to them in some way instead. And

663
00:33:31,296 --> 00:33:33,976
Speaker 2: that just strikes me as a missed opportunity, potentially. to

664
00:33:33,996 --> 00:33:35,636
Speaker 2: connect in a way that would be better. There are

665
00:33:35,656 --> 00:33:37,676
Speaker 2: times where we could take the time. It doesn't take

666
00:33:37,716 --> 00:33:40,096
Speaker 2: any longer. In fact, I was just doing something yesterday,

667
00:33:40,156 --> 00:33:43,226
Speaker 2: trying to schedule something, and we were going back and

668
00:33:43,276 --> 00:33:45,386
Speaker 2: forth over email. It was taking forever.

669
00:33:45,746 --> 00:33:47,546
Speaker 1: This was with you and I trying to figure out.

670
00:33:47,606 --> 00:33:49,966
Speaker 1: We're like, should we get a drink before dinner? And

671
00:33:50,006 --> 00:33:52,716
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm on South Congress. Can we meet up?

672
00:33:52,736 --> 00:33:53,976
Speaker 1: And he's like, well, how long is it going to take?

673
00:33:54,016 --> 00:33:55,596
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't know. I could pick you up

674
00:33:55,656 --> 00:33:57,576
Speaker 1: at the thing. And in addition to talking to you

675
00:33:57,616 --> 00:33:59,596
Speaker 1: over text, I was telling my husband to update him

676
00:33:59,636 --> 00:34:01,036
Speaker 1: on the plans. And I was like, I think Nick

677
00:34:01,056 --> 00:34:02,636
Speaker 1: is going to come here. Oh, no, the Uber is

678
00:34:02,696 --> 00:34:04,506
Speaker 1: not going to make it. In the middle of this,

679
00:34:04,806 --> 00:34:07,066
Speaker 1: my phone rings. And I was like, oh, hey, Nick.

680
00:34:07,526 --> 00:34:09,666
Speaker 1: And then he just explained, like, it's going to be

681
00:34:09,686 --> 00:34:11,066
Speaker 1: too much of a pain to come down there. Just

682
00:34:11,106 --> 00:34:13,966
Speaker 1: do this. Ah, and our plans, especially in a very

683
00:34:14,046 --> 00:34:16,706
Speaker 1: traffic-filled Austin city in South by Southwest, where everybody's here,

684
00:34:17,066 --> 00:34:19,446
Speaker 1: it was solved. But like, I'm also an expert on

685
00:34:19,466 --> 00:34:20,876
Speaker 1: this stuff and I did not think to pick up

686
00:34:20,916 --> 00:34:22,756
Speaker 1: the phone and just call Nick, even though I knew

687
00:34:22,836 --> 00:34:24,636
Speaker 1: he was by his phone because he was texting me

688
00:34:24,676 --> 00:34:25,276
Speaker 1: from his phone.

689
00:34:26,506 --> 00:34:27,126
Speaker 2: We can do better.

690
00:34:27,326 --> 00:34:29,726
Speaker 1: We can do better. And one of the ways we

691
00:34:29,746 --> 00:34:32,106
Speaker 1: can do better though, is to do what this whole

692
00:34:32,126 --> 00:34:34,826
Speaker 1: podcast is all about, right? Which is to understand our

693
00:34:34,966 --> 00:34:37,266
Speaker 1: biases and what we get wrong. Because one of the

694
00:34:37,306 --> 00:34:39,436
Speaker 1: main problems, one of the reasons we don't do better,

695
00:34:39,456 --> 00:34:40,796
Speaker 1: one of the reasons I don't do better in that

696
00:34:40,836 --> 00:34:45,376
Speaker 1: moment is we forget how different these hows of communication

697
00:34:45,416 --> 00:34:48,696
Speaker 1: can really be. We don't realize how mindless we seem

698
00:34:48,876 --> 00:34:52,696
Speaker 1: over text and this can lead to problems. You mentioned

699
00:34:52,756 --> 00:34:55,036
Speaker 1: sarcasm before, but I know you have a lovely study

700
00:34:55,096 --> 00:34:56,636
Speaker 1: on this. Tell me how that plays out.

701
00:34:56,736 --> 00:34:58,876
Speaker 2: So this was an experiment that we ran a little

702
00:34:58,916 --> 00:35:02,726
Speaker 2: while ago now, but the same kinds of mechanisms still apply.

703
00:35:02,776 --> 00:35:05,986
Speaker 2: We had people come up, we gave them 10 different topics,

704
00:35:06,366 --> 00:35:08,746
Speaker 2: you know, the weather in Austin, the music scene, South

705
00:35:08,766 --> 00:35:11,986
Speaker 2: by Southwest, whatever, 10 different topics. And for each one,

706
00:35:12,046 --> 00:35:14,986
Speaker 2: they were asked to write a sincere statement or a

707
00:35:15,026 --> 00:35:18,906
Speaker 2: sarcastic statement, okay? The 20 statements total. One person was

708
00:35:18,926 --> 00:35:21,996
Speaker 2: the sender, one person was the receiver, and they either...

709
00:35:22,286 --> 00:35:25,826
Speaker 2: sent these messages, these sincere or sarcastic messages, either by

710
00:35:25,886 --> 00:35:29,046
Speaker 2: typing them to the other person or by actually talking

711
00:35:29,346 --> 00:35:31,856
Speaker 2: to the other person over the phone. And then the

712
00:35:31,976 --> 00:35:34,716
Speaker 2: recipient of these, their job was simple. All they had

713
00:35:34,756 --> 00:35:37,216
Speaker 2: to do was guess, for each one, was this intended

714
00:35:37,256 --> 00:35:42,016
Speaker 2: to be sincere or sarcastic? The senders predicted how many

715
00:35:42,056 --> 00:35:44,336
Speaker 2: of these 20 you would get exactly right, and we

716
00:35:44,356 --> 00:35:47,396
Speaker 2: just compared the two. So it seems pretty obvious, at

717
00:35:47,456 --> 00:35:51,166
Speaker 2: least in the abstract, that texting, typing to another person

718
00:35:51,286 --> 00:35:54,396
Speaker 2: isn't going to communicate sarcasm very well. The problem is

719
00:35:54,456 --> 00:35:57,096
Speaker 2: that when you're actually doing it, right, you're passing along

720
00:35:57,136 --> 00:36:02,896
Speaker 2: that funny joke, right, about your co-worker's friend. That seems

721
00:36:02,936 --> 00:36:05,606
Speaker 2: so funny to you, right, so obviously funny to you.

722
00:36:06,286 --> 00:36:08,166
Speaker 2: It's not so clear to you that it's not so

723
00:36:08,266 --> 00:36:10,826
Speaker 2: obvious to the person on the other side. They can't

724
00:36:10,866 --> 00:36:11,426
Speaker 2: hear your.

725
00:36:13,026 --> 00:36:15,646
Speaker 2: Sarcasm while you're typing this thing out. They can only

726
00:36:15,706 --> 00:36:19,316
Speaker 2: hear it in your voice. But because of egocentrism, because

727
00:36:19,356 --> 00:36:21,876
Speaker 2: we tend to use our own mind as a guide

728
00:36:21,916 --> 00:36:24,796
Speaker 2: to another person, it can dull our senses about this.

729
00:36:24,856 --> 00:36:28,516
Speaker 2: And indeed, we found, not surprisingly perhaps, that recipients were

730
00:36:28,636 --> 00:36:31,876
Speaker 2: notably better interpreting whether a message was meant to be

731
00:36:31,916 --> 00:36:35,316
Speaker 2: sincere or sarcastic when they heard what the person had

732
00:36:35,336 --> 00:36:36,856
Speaker 2: to say than when they read it. In fact, when

733
00:36:36,876 --> 00:36:40,086
Speaker 2: they read it, they were not significantly better than chance alone.

734
00:36:40,806 --> 00:36:44,786
Speaker 2: They were 56% accurate when chance is 50%. They were

735
00:36:44,826 --> 00:36:50,606
Speaker 2: basically guessing. But interestingly, when we asked the senders to

736
00:36:50,726 --> 00:36:54,346
Speaker 2: predict how many the recipient would get right, they thought

737
00:36:54,386 --> 00:36:58,886
Speaker 2: they were communicating about 75% of these accurately, both when

738
00:36:58,906 --> 00:37:01,146
Speaker 2: they were typing to the person and when they were

739
00:37:01,186 --> 00:37:04,246
Speaker 2: talking to the other person. So here's this huge difference

740
00:37:04,646 --> 00:37:07,306
Speaker 2: in the actual ability to understand what I'm trying to

741
00:37:07,346 --> 00:37:10,426
Speaker 2: say to you, without a whole lot of awareness that

742
00:37:10,486 --> 00:37:12,746
Speaker 2: how I was communicating was going to make a big

743
00:37:12,786 --> 00:37:16,536
Speaker 2: difference to how well you could do this. Most miscalibrated, though,

744
00:37:16,916 --> 00:37:19,596
Speaker 2: were the recipients of these messages, the people who heard them.

745
00:37:19,896 --> 00:37:23,356
Speaker 2: They thought they were interpreting 90% roughly of these, correct?

746
00:37:24,256 --> 00:37:27,126
Speaker 2: And there was no difference in their confidence between whether

747
00:37:27,146 --> 00:37:29,086
Speaker 2: they were hearing what the person had to say or

748
00:37:29,106 --> 00:37:31,426
Speaker 2: they were reading what they had to say. And that

749
00:37:31,606 --> 00:37:34,866
Speaker 2: is a core problem with modern communication, I think. We're

750
00:37:34,886 --> 00:37:39,536
Speaker 2: communicating in ways. that are fundamentally impoverished often, sometimes about

751
00:37:39,596 --> 00:37:44,166
Speaker 2: dicey topics, increasingly so over X or online and social

752
00:37:44,206 --> 00:37:48,066
Speaker 2: media channels. These get increasingly hostile. Nobody can take a

753
00:37:48,106 --> 00:37:51,546
Speaker 2: joke online, right? Because we're reading what people have to say.

754
00:37:51,966 --> 00:37:54,296
Speaker 2: And we're failing to appreciate just how much the medium

755
00:37:54,316 --> 00:37:57,176
Speaker 2: that we're communicating through is corrupting the message that we're conveying.

756
00:37:57,896 --> 00:38:00,416
Speaker 1: And so that's kind of how bad we are at text.

757
00:38:00,456 --> 00:38:02,616
Speaker 1: I think another thing we're bad at is that even

758
00:38:02,656 --> 00:38:05,616
Speaker 1: when we have the opportunity to choose voice, we don't

759
00:38:05,896 --> 00:38:08,176
Speaker 1: choose voice. Tell me about what you found in your

760
00:38:08,236 --> 00:38:10,376
Speaker 1: elevator pitch study that you did with MBA students.

761
00:38:10,456 --> 00:38:13,506
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. So this was one where we asked our

762
00:38:13,686 --> 00:38:17,346
Speaker 2: MBA students to come up with an elevator pitch that

763
00:38:17,406 --> 00:38:20,346
Speaker 2: they would use to deliver to the employer of their

764
00:38:20,426 --> 00:38:24,126
Speaker 2: favorite job, right? So every job seeker has an elevator pitch, right?

765
00:38:24,146 --> 00:38:27,266
Speaker 2: This is your two to three minute spiel about why

766
00:38:27,346 --> 00:38:32,306
Speaker 2: you employer dream job should hire me, potential employee. And they, again,

767
00:38:32,346 --> 00:38:34,086
Speaker 2: they did this in the same way that we did

768
00:38:34,126 --> 00:38:37,836
Speaker 2: in the 2016 election experiment. They gave their pitch. We

769
00:38:37,896 --> 00:38:41,856
Speaker 2: recorded it over video. From that, we could create three stimuli.

770
00:38:41,876 --> 00:38:44,956
Speaker 2: We could create the audio only. We could create the

771
00:38:45,036 --> 00:38:47,016
Speaker 2: audio with video and we could create the text. And

772
00:38:47,036 --> 00:38:49,016
Speaker 2: we also had a study where we created the transcript.

773
00:38:49,476 --> 00:38:54,186
Speaker 2: We then had them evaluated by people who either watched

774
00:38:54,256 --> 00:38:58,716
Speaker 2: or listened or read these stimuli. And they reported how thoughtful,

775
00:38:58,756 --> 00:39:02,426
Speaker 2: how intelligent, how rational, how employable this person was. As

776
00:39:02,466 --> 00:39:05,166
Speaker 2: with the election study, people seem more mindful when you

777
00:39:05,186 --> 00:39:07,426
Speaker 2: heard what they had to say than when they read

778
00:39:07,466 --> 00:39:09,326
Speaker 2: what they had to say. But when we asked a

779
00:39:09,386 --> 00:39:14,306
Speaker 2: separate sample of people, how would you rather communicate with

780
00:39:14,386 --> 00:39:16,726
Speaker 2: a dream employer if you were giving an elevator pitch,

781
00:39:17,296 --> 00:39:20,336
Speaker 2: about 80% of people said, I would rather type than talk.

782
00:39:21,716 --> 00:39:24,106
Speaker 2: Because you think. You know, I can get the words

783
00:39:24,146 --> 00:39:26,266
Speaker 2: just right. I can type this out. And that's, it's

784
00:39:26,286 --> 00:39:29,666
Speaker 2: the semantic content. It's the Malinowski mistake. That what's going

785
00:39:29,686 --> 00:39:32,026
Speaker 2: to matter is the words that I use. So typing

786
00:39:32,066 --> 00:39:33,946
Speaker 2: it is going to matter the most. And what we

787
00:39:33,986 --> 00:39:36,686
Speaker 2: miss is that it's the voice behind the message that

788
00:39:36,706 --> 00:39:38,626
Speaker 2: matters a lot. It's the warmth that you convey. It's

789
00:39:38,646 --> 00:39:42,516
Speaker 2: the thoughtful. It's the intelligence. It's the rationality. It's the emotion.

790
00:39:42,816 --> 00:39:45,316
Speaker 2: It's the passion that you're conveying in your voice. That's

791
00:39:45,336 --> 00:39:47,376
Speaker 2: what matters. And that's what people seem to miss here.

792
00:39:47,796 --> 00:39:50,196
Speaker 1: And that's not just in the job description context. You

793
00:39:50,236 --> 00:39:52,336
Speaker 1: found this in other cases as well. People want to write.

794
00:39:52,976 --> 00:39:53,656
Speaker 2: People do want to write.

795
00:39:53,676 --> 00:39:53,896
Speaker 1: Yeah.

796
00:39:53,916 --> 00:39:57,036
Speaker 2: So we had one situation where we had people reconnect

797
00:39:57,056 --> 00:39:58,716
Speaker 2: with old friends. How many of you have an old

798
00:39:58,776 --> 00:40:01,276
Speaker 2: friend that you'd like to connect to, but you haven't?

799
00:40:01,356 --> 00:40:03,506
Speaker 1: Oh, we're seeing lots of hands in the audience. A

800
00:40:03,526 --> 00:40:06,146
Speaker 1: lot of missed connections out here. So you could reach

801
00:40:06,246 --> 00:40:08,186
Speaker 1: out to that old friend in a number of different ways, right?

802
00:40:08,206 --> 00:40:10,666
Speaker 1: You could pick up the phone and call them, or

803
00:40:10,766 --> 00:40:12,706
Speaker 1: you could send them an email and type to them.

804
00:40:12,986 --> 00:40:15,386
Speaker 1: We had participants in an experiment, ask them to think

805
00:40:15,406 --> 00:40:17,026
Speaker 1: about a person, an old friend they could reach out

806
00:40:17,046 --> 00:40:21,276
Speaker 1: and reconnect to. We had them imagine and predict how

807
00:40:21,336 --> 00:40:23,836
Speaker 1: they would feel after their interaction if they typed to

808
00:40:23,876 --> 00:40:26,296
Speaker 1: the other person or if they talked to the other person,

809
00:40:26,436 --> 00:40:29,316
Speaker 1: called them up on the phone. And then we asked them,

810
00:40:29,676 --> 00:40:31,836
Speaker 1: how would you rather reconnect with your old friend? Would

811
00:40:31,856 --> 00:40:33,376
Speaker 1: you rather talk or would you rather type?

812
00:40:33,776 --> 00:40:38,456
Speaker 2: People thought, actually, that they would feel more connected if

813
00:40:38,476 --> 00:40:40,176
Speaker 2: they called their old friend than if they typed to

814
00:40:40,236 --> 00:40:42,376
Speaker 2: their old friend, thought they'd have a better conversation if

815
00:40:42,416 --> 00:40:45,056
Speaker 2: they talked than if they typed. But they also thought

816
00:40:45,416 --> 00:40:48,956
Speaker 2: it would be way more awkward to call somebody and

817
00:40:49,016 --> 00:40:52,176
Speaker 2: talk to them than type to them. What won out

818
00:40:52,336 --> 00:40:55,206
Speaker 2: in their choice? It was the awkwardness. About 2 thirds

819
00:40:55,226 --> 00:40:56,966
Speaker 2: of people said, I would rather type to the person

820
00:40:57,486 --> 00:41:00,386
Speaker 2: than I would talk to the person. Now, we're experimentalists,

821
00:41:00,406 --> 00:41:02,146
Speaker 2: so we don't allow you to choose what you get

822
00:41:02,186 --> 00:41:04,686
Speaker 2: to do. We randomly assign you to do stuff. So

823
00:41:04,726 --> 00:41:06,766
Speaker 2: they essentially got to pull a rabbit out of the hat,

824
00:41:07,066 --> 00:41:09,326
Speaker 2: which told them whether they were going to call their

825
00:41:09,346 --> 00:41:11,546
Speaker 2: old friend or type to their old friend. They then

826
00:41:11,606 --> 00:41:13,066
Speaker 2: went off and did that. And then they came back

827
00:41:13,106 --> 00:41:15,626
Speaker 2: and they told us how the conversation actually go. And

828
00:41:15,876 --> 00:41:18,976
Speaker 2: as they expected beforehand, They felt more connected. They had

829
00:41:19,016 --> 00:41:20,756
Speaker 2: a better conversation when they talked than when they typed.

830
00:41:21,016 --> 00:41:24,316
Speaker 2: But there was no difference in awkwardness. So this thing

831
00:41:24,356 --> 00:41:27,896
Speaker 2: that was driving this choice, it'll be weird to reach

832
00:41:28,096 --> 00:41:30,916
Speaker 2: out to Lori, to call her up to coordinate this.

833
00:41:30,956 --> 00:41:33,656
Speaker 2: We'll just type instead, right? I haven't talked to this

834
00:41:33,696 --> 00:41:36,296
Speaker 2: person in years. It'll be odd to call them out

835
00:41:36,336 --> 00:41:39,476
Speaker 2: of the blue. Just wasn't that odd. And wasn't any

836
00:41:39,516 --> 00:41:41,936
Speaker 2: more odd than typing to them. So this thing that

837
00:41:41,976 --> 00:41:44,736
Speaker 2: people were using to guide their expectations led them astray,

838
00:41:44,976 --> 00:41:46,856
Speaker 2: to prefer typing over talking. And that was a mistake.

839
00:41:47,646 --> 00:41:50,586
Speaker 1: And so the how of communication really matters. I know

840
00:41:50,646 --> 00:41:53,446
Speaker 1: this has changed how you communicate a lot, even just

841
00:41:53,486 --> 00:41:55,666
Speaker 1: in the example with ourselves. But yeah, what are some

842
00:41:55,706 --> 00:41:57,666
Speaker 1: examples of how you do things different when the research

843
00:41:57,726 --> 00:41:58,946
Speaker 1: pushes against your intuitions?

844
00:41:59,466 --> 00:42:02,636
Speaker 2: I try to carve out time for habits. That's, I think,

845
00:42:02,676 --> 00:42:04,976
Speaker 2: the way you really put a lot of these practices

846
00:42:05,496 --> 00:42:08,116
Speaker 2: that we talk about into your own life. You don't

847
00:42:08,156 --> 00:42:09,976
Speaker 2: do really big things. Those are hard. But there are

848
00:42:09,996 --> 00:42:13,586
Speaker 2: lots of opportunities that you might have. to do little

849
00:42:13,626 --> 00:42:15,676
Speaker 2: things that would make your moments better. And I think

850
00:42:15,716 --> 00:42:18,596
Speaker 2: that's a really important way to think about happiness, because

851
00:42:18,636 --> 00:42:21,136
Speaker 2: it's those moments that matter. Happiness is like, as we've

852
00:42:21,156 --> 00:42:23,096
Speaker 2: talked about many times before, I think it's kind of

853
00:42:23,116 --> 00:42:25,656
Speaker 2: like a leaky tire. You do something that makes you

854
00:42:25,676 --> 00:42:27,766
Speaker 2: feel good. You feel good, and then it kind of

855
00:42:27,776 --> 00:42:29,586
Speaker 2: drains out a little bit. You come back to baseline.

856
00:42:29,946 --> 00:42:32,486
Speaker 2: That's not cause for despair. That's a call to action.

857
00:42:32,606 --> 00:42:34,386
Speaker 2: That's a call to arms right there. I got to

858
00:42:34,406 --> 00:42:36,066
Speaker 2: do that thing again. And I got to do that

859
00:42:36,106 --> 00:42:38,206
Speaker 2: thing again and that thing again. So what I try

860
00:42:38,246 --> 00:42:41,486
Speaker 2: to do is find routine times where I can actually

861
00:42:41,546 --> 00:42:44,496
Speaker 2: have conversation with people instead of typing to them. So

862
00:42:44,716 --> 00:42:47,096
Speaker 2: one thing that I do that works really well is

863
00:42:47,156 --> 00:42:49,136
Speaker 2: that when I'm driving in the car by myself, I

864
00:42:49,176 --> 00:42:50,736
Speaker 2: call one of the kids, or I call a friend,

865
00:42:50,796 --> 00:42:52,736
Speaker 2: or I call my dad. For the last three months,

866
00:42:52,756 --> 00:42:55,196
Speaker 2: I've been teaching in downtown Chicago, and I got about

867
00:42:55,216 --> 00:42:58,356
Speaker 2: a 45-minute drive home. My kids will all tell you

868
00:42:58,376 --> 00:43:00,596
Speaker 2: they get a call. That's when dad calls, right? It's

869
00:43:00,616 --> 00:43:03,066
Speaker 2: in the evening on that drive home. I could wait

870
00:43:03,106 --> 00:43:04,876
Speaker 2: and catch up to them over text or something, but

871
00:43:04,896 --> 00:43:08,606
Speaker 2: I carve out that time to talk. And at that time,

872
00:43:08,646 --> 00:43:12,016
Speaker 2: I would just be listening to music or Laurie's podcast.

873
00:43:13,476 --> 00:43:15,836
Speaker 2: And that is lovely, right? But talking to the kids,

874
00:43:15,876 --> 00:43:18,596
Speaker 2: I carve out time for that. So I think the

875
00:43:18,656 --> 00:43:20,796
Speaker 2: things that I try to do is to look for

876
00:43:20,856 --> 00:43:23,456
Speaker 2: opportunities where it would be easy. And I talk to

877
00:43:23,476 --> 00:43:25,436
Speaker 2: a lot of people as well. That is something I

878
00:43:25,496 --> 00:43:28,576
Speaker 2: very much do. And when I have that choice, I

879
00:43:28,616 --> 00:43:31,116
Speaker 2: pick up the phone. Sometimes it takes me a few

880
00:43:31,176 --> 00:43:34,636
Speaker 2: wayward texts to get to it. But eventually, I realize, oh, no,

881
00:43:34,676 --> 00:43:36,696
Speaker 2: we're just going to talk. And that'll make it better.

882
00:43:37,486 --> 00:43:40,046
Speaker 1: And so for our final thought, our inner lives are

883
00:43:40,086 --> 00:43:43,216
Speaker 1: obscured in text. Compared to what we reveal through our voices,

884
00:43:43,336 --> 00:43:47,136
Speaker 1: people seem less mindful, less intelligent, less emotional, less human

885
00:43:47,576 --> 00:43:49,316
Speaker 1: when they're typing to each other than when they're talking

886
00:43:49,336 --> 00:43:52,146
Speaker 1: to each other. But the good news is that bridging

887
00:43:52,166 --> 00:43:55,166
Speaker 1: the gap between people is easier than we think, as

888
00:43:55,246 --> 00:43:58,106
Speaker 1: long as we know how to do it better. Nick,

889
00:43:58,286 --> 00:43:59,906
Speaker 1: thank you for teaching us how to do it better.

890
00:44:00,066 --> 00:44:06,096
Speaker 1: Nick Epley, everyone. Wasn't that awesome? Thank you so much

891
00:44:06,136 --> 00:44:07,996
Speaker 1: to the folks at the World Happiness Summit and at

892
00:44:08,016 --> 00:44:10,216
Speaker 1: South by Southwest for having us here. This has been

893
00:44:10,236 --> 00:44:16,746
Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab Live. Thank you so much. If you

894
00:44:16,766 --> 00:44:18,286
Speaker 1: want to learn a little bit more about Nick's work,

895
00:44:18,446 --> 00:44:20,646
Speaker 1: I highly recommend checking out his new book, A Little

896
00:44:20,686 --> 00:44:23,826
Speaker 1: More Social. Next time, I'll be back with another live

897
00:44:23,886 --> 00:44:27,026
Speaker 1: conversation from the World Happiness Summit at South by Southwest.

898
00:44:27,606 --> 00:44:30,206
Speaker 1: And this time, I'll be joined by fellow happiness expert

899
00:44:30,336 --> 00:44:32,856
Speaker 1: and one of my good friends, the psychologist Ethan Cross.

900
00:44:33,746 --> 00:44:35,626
Speaker 1: And Ethan and I will get real in this one.

901
00:44:36,086 --> 00:44:38,666
Speaker 1: We'll talk about the things that happiness experts like us

902
00:44:38,726 --> 00:44:40,936
Speaker 1: get wrong about happiness and what the rest of you

903
00:44:40,976 --> 00:44:42,536
Speaker 1: can do to learn from our mistakes.

904
00:44:43,176 --> 00:44:46,496
Speaker 2: Everyone here in our audience is a giant hypocrite. So

905
00:44:46,816 --> 00:44:50,336
Speaker 2: turns out that this is the universal feature of the

906
00:44:50,376 --> 00:44:54,036
Speaker 2: human condition. We can give great advice. We don't always

907
00:44:54,076 --> 00:44:54,956
Speaker 2: follow it ourselves.

908
00:44:55,576 --> 00:44:58,036
Speaker 1: That's all next time on the Happiness Lab live on

909
00:44:58,096 --> 00:45:00,236
Speaker 1: stage with me, Dr. Laurie Santos.