Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast with doctor Scott
Speaker 1: Barry Kaufman, where we give you insights into the mind, brain, behavior,
Speaker 1: and creativity. Each episode will feature a new guest who
Speaker 1: will stimulate your mind and give you a greater understanding
Speaker 1: of yourself, others, and the world we live in. Hopefully
Speaker 1: we'll also provide a glimpse into human possibility. Thanks for
Speaker 1: listening and enjoy the podcast. Today we have Sean Desai
Speaker 1: on the show. Sean is in his third season as
Speaker 1: a defensive quality control coach for the Chicago Bears. He
Speaker 1: is entering his tenth year as a coach at the
Speaker 1: NFL or collegiate levels. On the field. To say, works
Speaker 1: with the Bears linebackers on defense while also assisting the
Speaker 1: special team's coaches. Not sure I know what any of
Speaker 1: that means, but it's great to have you on the show.
Speaker 1: Sean oh Man, it's great to be here, Scott oh
Speaker 1: thanks for reaching out to me. I would like to
Speaker 1: expand my horizons. Yeah, I'm really excited. I've listened to
Speaker 1: a lot of your podcasts, and then I've read a
Speaker 1: lot of the books of different people I've been interviewed,
Speaker 1: so I was really interested in figured we'd get a
Speaker 1: chance to talk. I'd love to do that. Cool. Let's
Speaker 1: start with your development into the NFL. How did you
Speaker 1: end up as a defensive quality control for the Chicago Bears.
Speaker 1: How does one do? Yeah? So, I started as a
Speaker 1: graduate assistant at Temple University in two thousand and six,
Speaker 1: and I was going to school there and I ended
Speaker 1: up getting my doctorate in education and Higher ed administration
Speaker 1: and then became the special teams coordinator and linebacker coach,
Speaker 1: promoted that position. Was fortunate enough to do that. Then
Speaker 1: from there went to the University of Miami for one
Speaker 1: year down in Florida, then went to Boston College as
Speaker 1: a special teams coordinator running back coach for a year,
Speaker 1: and then I had an opportunity to join the Bears
Speaker 1: back in twenty twelve and was fortunate enough to get
Speaker 1: the job and have been tacking on ever since. Were
Speaker 1: you a Chicago Bears fan before? I mean, everybody's a
Speaker 1: Chicago Bears fan, just in terms of if you're a
Speaker 1: NFL fan, you know, because it's one of the founding
Speaker 1: franchises of the NFL. Growing up, I was really you know, Eagles,
Speaker 1: I was growing up in the Northeast, so I wasn't
Speaker 1: an Eagles fan. I was more of a Giants than
Speaker 1: San Francisco forty nine ers. But that was way young.
Speaker 1: I mean, I would say I stopped becoming a fan
Speaker 1: once you start coaching, right, So what do you mean
Speaker 1: by that? That's interesting? You know, I think it's harder
Speaker 1: to have stronger alliance as as fans do when you're
Speaker 1: in the profession, So you think you appreciate the game
Speaker 1: from a different angle. And I love the game. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm a fan of the game, but to say I'm
Speaker 1: a die hard fan of one team, now, I don't
Speaker 1: think I can say that, especially if I'm working in league. Gotcha?
Speaker 1: And did you play football yourself? So I played in
Speaker 1: high school. Unfortunately we were good and won state championship
Speaker 1: and everything like that. But the college I went to,
Speaker 1: I went to Boston University. They actually cut their program
Speaker 1: a few years before I got there, so I did
Speaker 1: not play in college, which is rather unique, I guess
Speaker 1: for anybody to be coaching, especially at this level. But
Speaker 1: it's worked out. Yeah, it sounds like it. Okay. So
Speaker 1: I mean, is there like a standard path for someone
Speaker 1: who wants to become a coach. I mean, is there
Speaker 1: like something that like, what's like the normal sort of
Speaker 1: pathway to that, to that sort of Yeah, so I
Speaker 1: would say probably a traditional pathway would be, you know,
Speaker 1: you have some playing experience, so that gives you some
Speaker 1: access to head coaches and athletic directors at the college
Speaker 1: level or NFL head coaches and general managers, and then
Speaker 1: eventually transition into some type of if it's college a
Speaker 1: graduate assistant role, or if it's the NFL, a defensive
Speaker 1: assistant or like you mean, defensive quality control of whatever
Speaker 1: your title is, you transition into the entry level position
Speaker 1: at that level, and then once you've got access, it's
Speaker 1: pretty much about your merit and how well the people
Speaker 1: around you think of you, and you kind of work
Speaker 1: your way up. Now let's dive into things that other
Speaker 1: coaches listening to this interview could really benefit from. So
Speaker 1: you've proposed your own sort of model of player development
Speaker 1: called the Dice model. Do you want to talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about that? Yeah, you know, and it actually
Speaker 1: came about through some experiences I've had at Temple with
Speaker 1: the head coach there while I was there, and then
Speaker 1: I ended up developing actually for an academic project I
Speaker 1: was working on at Temple, and it first started off
Speaker 1: as a teaching and learning model, and then I eventually,
Speaker 1: since over the last i would say four or five years,
Speaker 1: really put a lot more thought into it and developed
Speaker 1: it really into a leadership motivation model as well. And
Speaker 1: so really dice an acronym and so what it stands
Speaker 1: for is direct, instruct, collaborate, and empower, and I think
Speaker 1: those are pretty much encompass different styles of teaching and
Speaker 1: learning and really end up income seeing different styles of
Speaker 1: motivation and leadership. And my premise of the model is,
Speaker 1: you know, for me, at one point, I should say
Speaker 1: like this. At one point, it used to be a
Speaker 1: linear model that you know, you go from direct to instruct,
Speaker 1: to collaborate to empower. And as I've developed the model,
Speaker 1: I've kind of gone out of that phase and start
Speaker 1: to think that maybe it's not so linear as much
Speaker 1: as it is a self perpetuating cycle. So what I
Speaker 1: mean by that is there's one word that's not in
Speaker 1: the acronym, trust that's really critical to the model. So
Speaker 1: I think everything starts with trust. Developing trust with your constituents,
Speaker 1: with your players in our field, with your students. If
Speaker 1: you're an educator, and once you can develop that type
Speaker 1: of trust, you have access to all of those models.
Speaker 1: You have access to the directing, the instructing, the collaborating,
Speaker 1: and the empowering. And I think the empowering is the
Speaker 1: ultimate one that everybody would like to get to because
Speaker 1: that kind of creates a self motivated individual once they
Speaker 1: become so empowered, and I think that is really what
Speaker 1: allows a powerful team to win, powerful organizations to have success.
Speaker 1: So trust is the central part of it, and I've
Speaker 1: really added that self perpetuing cycle part because I think
Speaker 1: once you develop trust, all of those styles direction, instruction, collaboration,
Speaker 1: and empowerment are relevant and necessary at different times, right
Speaker 1: from a leadership perspective. But what's the difference in directing
Speaker 1: and instructing? Yeah, that was something I've thought about for
Speaker 1: a little bit. So directing to me is more of
Speaker 1: a command, so it'd be something like me say, okay, Scott,
Speaker 1: you go do this, and then you just go do it, okay.
Speaker 1: An instruction would be more of I think what a
Speaker 1: lot of people may consider teaching is okay, Scott, you
Speaker 1: go do this, and this is how we'll do it.
Speaker 1: We'll walk to the left, You'll take one step with
Speaker 1: your left foot, one step with your right foot. So
Speaker 1: I've given you an instruction of how to do that.
Speaker 1: The collaboration would be like, okay, Scott, we're going to
Speaker 1: do this. We're gonna walk here to the left. We're
Speaker 1: gonna take one step with our left, one step with
Speaker 1: our right. Let's go ahead and do it together with
Speaker 1: your left foot. Here's where the right foot, and we're
Speaker 1: doing it together. So we're working together. And then an
Speaker 1: empowerment evention. This is a tricky part. This is the
Speaker 1: part that gets really hard and it's really elusive to grasp.
Speaker 1: Is you know, we may be talking. You might come
Speaker 1: up to me and say, hey, hey, Sean, well I
Speaker 1: think it might be better I take a step to
Speaker 1: the left here. Maybe I can start with my left
Speaker 1: foot and right foot like this, And then I'd be like, hey,
Speaker 1: that's a great idea. Let's see how that works. So
Speaker 1: now you're the one who's initiated the instruction or the
Speaker 1: direction or the lesson. So that's where the empowerment comes
Speaker 1: in because once you can get that where the pupil,
Speaker 1: the player, the learner is feels like they're on an
Speaker 1: equal level with the teacher, the coach, the leader, then
Speaker 1: you can. I think it's a powerful movement. It's a
Speaker 1: powerful motivating force that can really have some drastic impacts positively.
Speaker 1: So there is a room in the process for some
Speaker 1: creativity on the part of the player. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: I think that's the really I mean, I never even
Speaker 1: thought about that word until you just mentioned, but that's
Speaker 1: that's really what you're going for when you're talking about empowerment,
Speaker 1: is for the player to be able to think creatively,
Speaker 1: like you said, within whatever realm that they're doing, and
Speaker 1: to be able to feel comfortable bringing up some ideas
Speaker 1: or suggestions or feel comfortable doing in action even without
Speaker 1: speaking to me, perhaps because they know that it'll be
Speaker 1: within the realm of what we're doing. Gotch Well, So, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's this idea of empowerment. Like during the games, are
Speaker 1: you on the floor of the like, are you right
Speaker 1: there with the players on the sideline? Yeah? So the
Speaker 1: way you know, game days set up is we got
Speaker 1: coaches on the sideline, coaches in the booth, and we're
Speaker 1: all communicating, you know, with our headsets and everything like that.
Speaker 1: So myself, I'm up in the booth with our defensive
Speaker 1: coordinator and one of our other defensive back coaches, and
Speaker 1: then the other four defensive coaches run on the field,
Speaker 1: So that's how we communicate. Where's the booth is it?
Speaker 1: The booth is in the stands. Really, you know, it's
Speaker 1: like a suite, So it's we're kind of higher eagle
Speaker 1: eye view of what's going on in the game as
Speaker 1: much commer environment. So you know, we can relay the
Speaker 1: information to the coaches who are on the field, and
Speaker 1: then they relay it to the players because it's hard
Speaker 1: to see when you're on the field. Yeah, no, I understand.
Speaker 1: I mean that that must be quite a rush. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's great, And it's just the dynamic of
Speaker 1: VENI in the booth is on the field, it's totally different.
Speaker 1: I had an opportunity to be on the field one
Speaker 1: year when I was at Boston College. There's so much
Speaker 1: more emotion and energy on the field that if you
Speaker 1: don't know how to manage it, you can kind of
Speaker 1: get caught up into and lose yourself a little bit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: do you wish you were on the field, You know,
Speaker 1: there are times I do, But I really do like
Speaker 1: the booth. I really like the ability to be able
Speaker 1: to see everything, make some decisions and have some time
Speaker 1: to reflect on it really quickly, and relay information down
Speaker 1: to the coaches that are on the field they incapacity
Speaker 1: to the players. Cool man, I mean that. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: just like sounds like a dream job for someone that
Speaker 1: likes football. Yeah, I mean it is. It's a dream
Speaker 1: job from I mean you kind of get season free
Speaker 1: season tickets, that's right, I got the bet in the house. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's really cool. So you near like the press and
Speaker 1: media peak booths as well. Yeah, we're actually all on
Speaker 1: the same level most times. You know, different thames are
Speaker 1: set up different ways, but we're usually on the same level. Obviously,
Speaker 1: we've got our own partition in our own room, but yeah,
Speaker 1: everybody's pretty much on the same level. Are you hoping
Speaker 1: to win the Super Bowl this year? Yes? Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1: You guys need to make some improvements from last year. Huh. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I think we've made some and it'll be good.
Speaker 1: We've got the players back. We're meeting with players now,
Speaker 1: and it's always an exciting time of year because you
Speaker 1: get to reinstall your systems and schemes, and right now
Speaker 1: is the time that you're teaching and learning the most,
Speaker 1: So it's great. Yeah, So what kind of happens off
Speaker 1: season is Yeah, the strategy, So you know, in the
Speaker 1: NFL counter year, it's different than the college calendar year.
Speaker 1: You know, once the season's over, the coaches get a
Speaker 1: few weeks off and then you get ready. You're trying
Speaker 1: to get ready for a free agency, so you're evaluating
Speaker 1: players in the NFL around your team and on other teams,
Speaker 1: and then personnel folks are making transactions, and then you
Speaker 1: get ready for the draft, which is another big chunk
Speaker 1: of time. You know, you go down to the combine
Speaker 1: when you're conducting interviews, you're evaluating college players, and then
Speaker 1: after the draft, you're pretty much getting ready for spring
Speaker 1: practice OTAs coaching sessions, which is what we're in right now.
Speaker 1: And so during that time of well you're evaluating players
Speaker 1: through free agency and college, you're basically self scouting self
Speaker 1: and analyzing your own strengths and weaknesses, trying to figure
Speaker 1: out ways that you can improve, studying other people's schemes
Speaker 1: both offensively and defensively, and just trying to get better
Speaker 1: as best you can. So what do you think is
Speaker 1: show of the great indicators of potential in the NFL,
Speaker 1: there's been some research on MBA combined showing that a
Speaker 1: lot of those markers of physical fitness and stuff are
Speaker 1: really not what differentiates the greats from the non greats.
Speaker 1: What do you think are some of the greatest markers?
Speaker 1: You know? I think that's an awesome question. I think
Speaker 1: there needs to be a baseline, and I think in
Speaker 1: most of the literature, even non athletic literature, when you're
Speaker 1: talking about performance, there needs to be some type of
Speaker 1: baseline of skill, some type of baseline of athleticism. So
Speaker 1: however you measure that, So we have that, and just
Speaker 1: like the NBA, everybody's got those analytics in terms of height, weight, speed, YadA, YadA, YadA,
Speaker 1: of all those things that you can measure and you
Speaker 1: can quantify. I personally believe that that's it's good and
Speaker 1: it's a good understanding to have, and it's a good
Speaker 1: brometer to measure people and compare people historically and currently.
Speaker 1: But I think there's another level that needs to be understood,
Speaker 1: and that level is really developed through personal contact. You
Speaker 1: need to be a person evaluator. To be a good
Speaker 1: personnel evaluator, in my opinion. And so what I mean
Speaker 1: by that is you need to be able to understand
Speaker 1: how a person learns, how they're motivated, makes them kind
Speaker 1: of tick, and what makes them want to be great,
Speaker 1: if they have that quality that wants to be great,
Speaker 1: and really how they'll fit into your system. I think
Speaker 1: a lot of times talent can be kind of a
Speaker 1: seduction almost. You know, people can get seduced by talent
Speaker 1: that they forget all those other things, and then all
Speaker 1: of a sudden you may have a talented player who
Speaker 1: is not really performing well or to your expectation, of course,
Speaker 1: puts it distracted by talents. Yeah, that's right. Have you
Speaker 1: read her new book? I just got it. I have
Speaker 1: not read it though. Cool, it's very good. It's a
Speaker 1: great book. Yeah, so this is super interesting. You have
Speaker 1: this privileged access to seeing differences in player quality and
Speaker 1: understand the people as well. Are you friends with any
Speaker 1: of the players? You know? I wouldn't. I don't know
Speaker 1: if i'd say friends. You know, it's not like you
Speaker 1: call them up and write and go drinking with them.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think we have a good professional relationship.
Speaker 1: I think they all respect me, and I certainly respect
Speaker 1: everything that they do in terms of their preparation and
Speaker 1: their physical and mental wear that they put on their
Speaker 1: bodies to go through the sport that we play. So
Speaker 1: I certainly have a great respect for them. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think i'm i would say, have a really good,
Speaker 1: respectful professional relationship with them where I hope they feel
Speaker 1: like they can come to me for anything, and I
Speaker 1: know I can go to them for anything. Are you
Speaker 1: allowed to be friends with them? Are you? No? No? No, Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's no written rules, and I think there's always a
Speaker 1: necessary boundary points. You know, you don't want to become
Speaker 1: too friendly because at the end of the day, this
Speaker 1: is still a profession, you know, especially when you're talking
Speaker 1: about in the the NFL. It's very different than college, you know,
Speaker 1: because a lot of times these players are coming and
Speaker 1: going in the NFL, you know, they get cut one day,
Speaker 1: they get picked up by another team, and things like that.
Speaker 1: So in college you're developing a little bit different type
Speaker 1: of relationship because these are kids who are, you know,
Speaker 1: seventeen or eighteen years old, coming right out of high school,
Speaker 1: whore and actually live on their own for the first time.
Speaker 1: So in that role, you're trying to take on a
Speaker 1: little bit more of a parental role, trying to show
Speaker 1: them the way of how to be a co it's student,
Speaker 1: how to be a successful student athlete. You know, what
Speaker 1: are the traits that they need to be able to
Speaker 1: endure the academic rigor of the university that they're at
Speaker 1: as long along with the football rigger or the athletic rigor.
Speaker 1: That's a great point. So how much of performance or
Speaker 1: you know, high performance is due to the sort of
Speaker 1: mental game. There's a phrase called mental toughness that's used
Speaker 1: a lot. Yeah, what are some of the key characteristics there?
Speaker 1: You know, I think mental toughness is to me, an
Speaker 1: overuse phrase that's underdefined. Now do I think it's a
Speaker 1: great phrase, yes? Do I use it all the time? Yes?
Speaker 1: I think it needs to be clearly defined in terms
Speaker 1: of how people are using it, because a lot of
Speaker 1: times it just becomes a catch off or something. Oh well,
Speaker 1: that kid's not mentally tough. But what does that mean?
Speaker 1: What are your expectations as a leader for being mentally tough?
Speaker 1: And so for me, you know, some of those expectations
Speaker 1: are are they resilient? Are they able to self motivate
Speaker 1: themselves through a difficult physical situation? And also a difficult
Speaker 1: mental situation, you know, because these are all things that
Speaker 1: happen to them in the course of a game, So
Speaker 1: how do they respond to adversity and so, you know,
Speaker 1: you try to put them in situations where you can
Speaker 1: determine that, you know, through practice or even through meetings,
Speaker 1: and you try to make those as difficult for them
Speaker 1: to endure. Not difficult in a oh man, this is
Speaker 1: laborious or anything like that, but difficult in the sense
Speaker 1: of this is mentally draining if you're in a meeting room,
Speaker 1: or even sometimes physically draining if you're on a practice field.
Speaker 1: So you're trying to push them to certain limits safe limits. Obviously,
Speaker 1: you don't want to do things very safely, but you're
Speaker 1: trying to push them certain limits and test certain boundaries
Speaker 1: to see how they'll react, to see if that's the
Speaker 1: type of player that you can use and count on to,
Speaker 1: you know, for a successful outcome in a game. Oh,
Speaker 1: that's a really good point. I mean most people at
Speaker 1: that level, though, I mean, they're like very high. I mean,
Speaker 1: they're going to have very good resiliency to be able
Speaker 1: to make it to the NFL, right, Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: so I think there's any time you get access to
Speaker 1: any type of profession. And this was a lot of
Speaker 1: what my research was in my dissertation. There's already a
Speaker 1: baseline characteristic, so it's just what you're saying, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like the signaling hypothesis, the screen hypothsis. All these
Speaker 1: guys interviewed for a job in the NFL through their
Speaker 1: four years of college, through their work on the field.
Speaker 1: Off the field, they went to the combiner, didn't you know,
Speaker 1: They had their pro days, so that was their interview process,
Speaker 1: and so that ended up being a signal or a
Speaker 1: screen for these NFL teams. So now we know, okay,
Speaker 1: they were able to do certain things. But it's a
Speaker 1: whole different set now because there's also another Just like
Speaker 1: any labor market trend, there's still a supply and demand need.
Speaker 1: So regardless, there's going to be some people that fall
Speaker 1: through the cracks because you just need supply, right, are
Speaker 1: you do you have any saying who gets into the NFL? Well,
Speaker 1: do you have like a vote? Yeah, you know, i'd
Speaker 1: like to think. So, you know, our organization does a
Speaker 1: great job with our general manager and our head coach
Speaker 1: in terms of involving the coaches and then in terms
Speaker 1: of evaluations, so yes, you know, like I work with
Speaker 1: the linebacker group, inside linebackers in particular with us, so
Speaker 1: you know, I have a list of guys that I evaluate.
Speaker 1: Our inside linebacker coach has a list of guys he evaluates,
Speaker 1: and then we all kind of sit in a meeting
Speaker 1: room and discuss it and hash out the differences and
Speaker 1: kind of, you know, give everybody our evaluations on if
Speaker 1: we think this guy's worthy to be a bear or not.
Speaker 1: I like the way you said that, really to be
Speaker 1: a bear, that's cool. I mean it's just such a
Speaker 1: it seems like such a dream job. Wow. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: you know, I really appreciate your advice and insight. You know,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of people who are into the
Speaker 1: coaching profession who want to get to coaching profession. Do
Speaker 1: you have any advice for them? Like, I have a student,
Speaker 1: an undergrad student in one of my classes that wants
Speaker 1: to be a coach. Like, what's the advice there? Well,
Speaker 1: the advice is keep working hard and just try to
Speaker 1: gain access. Try to gain access point into college coaching
Speaker 1: or in to the NFL or whatever level you want
Speaker 1: to coach. Into high school coaching. I mean, when I
Speaker 1: was in college at Boston University, I was coaching my
Speaker 1: high school team back in Connecticut, helping coach it, you know,
Speaker 1: so I'd be in contact with the head coach was
Speaker 1: a freshman team, and I'd stay through training camp, I'd
Speaker 1: drive back on weekends to coach for games. So you're
Speaker 1: gonna have to put in some type of sacrifice, and
Speaker 1: you're gonna, mean, it's just like what Angela Duckworth has.
Speaker 1: You're gonna have to have some grit because you're gonna
Speaker 1: go through a long road, a low paying road where
Speaker 1: you're gonna be at the bottom of the chain for
Speaker 1: a long time, right right, and you're gonna have to
Speaker 1: be able to endure that and realize that it's not
Speaker 1: about the money. You're the materialistic things that you may
Speaker 1: think it is, but it's really about your passion and
Speaker 1: your drive and your positive approach towards it that'll help
Speaker 1: you develop in advance and be a sponge. I mean,
Speaker 1: go meet different coaches, you know, they have all these
Speaker 1: coaching clinics and all that kind of stuff. Go to
Speaker 1: a lot of them, meet different people, learn a lot
Speaker 1: of different schemes, learn a lot of different types of
Speaker 1: way to do things, have an open mind and just
Speaker 1: keep keep working. Yeah, do you do you have a
Speaker 1: specific like do you want to be a head coach? Yes?
Speaker 1: Like do you have a dream? Yes? Okay, yeah, so
Speaker 1: uh yes, it's to be a head coach. And really,
Speaker 1: you know what, I got into this profession because, like
Speaker 1: I said, I got my doctrine, so I had a
Speaker 1: professor job in hand that I turned down to be
Speaker 1: a ga you know, so I wasn't. I went from
Speaker 1: getting paid whatever it was going to be to still
Speaker 1: paying and not getting any money. So the dream was
Speaker 1: to be a head coach at a college or the
Speaker 1: NFL and then eventually, you know, obviously win at that
Speaker 1: high be successful and win at that level whatever level
Speaker 1: that is. And then you know, I think eventually I
Speaker 1: would like to get back into academics and kind of
Speaker 1: pursue that leadership track a little bit if I can. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Are you are you friends with John Fox at all? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I hope so? Yeah? No he action do you have
Speaker 1: with him? Oh? Daily? Yeah? Daily? I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: because the coaches are really close. You know, he does
Speaker 1: a coach. Fox does a great job in terms of
Speaker 1: listening and empowering everybody in the organization to have a
Speaker 1: voice and you know, to have their own kind of
Speaker 1: a stance on things, you know. So it's really I'm
Speaker 1: really fortunate to be part of his organization. He's extremely successful,
Speaker 1: as you can see by his own history, so he
Speaker 1: takes such a positive approach to developing players every day
Speaker 1: that it's it's really awesome. I'm really fortunate to be
Speaker 1: where I'm at. Yeah, no, it really sounds like such
Speaker 1: a great job. And yeah, I wish you all the
Speaker 1: best in working your way up, and we'll get you
Speaker 1: back on the podcast someday when you're head coach. That
Speaker 1: sounds good. Scott, thanks for being on the show. Oh,
Speaker 1: thank you. Thanks for listening to The Psychology Podcast with
Speaker 1: Doctor Scott Barry Kaufman. I hope you found this episode
Speaker 1: just as thought per booking and interesting as I did.
Speaker 1: If he'd like to read the show knows for this
Speaker 1: episode or here past episodes, you can visit the Psychology
Speaker 1: Podcast dot com.