WEBVTT - Jack White 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:23.076 Pushkin. Today, we have friend of the show, Jack White, 0:00:23.116 --> 0:00:26.516 back on the program, along with a very special visit 0:00:26.596 --> 0:00:29.596 from one of my favorite artists of all time. If 0:00:29.596 --> 0:00:32.476 you missed our last conversation with Jack, Brennan Benson and 0:00:32.516 --> 0:00:34.956 the rest of the Rack and Tours, I highly recommend 0:00:34.996 --> 0:00:38.676 going back to listen. This conversation, like the one before, 0:00:38.996 --> 0:00:43.516 is full of fascinating ideas, asides in musical history that 0:00:43.636 --> 0:00:46.076 lets you know just how deep a cat Jack White 0:00:46.116 --> 0:00:49.156 really is. It's as if he's tapped into some sort 0:00:49.156 --> 0:00:52.756 of endless creative energy and inspiration, and some of that 0:00:52.836 --> 0:00:56.316 inspiration he tells Rick in this conversation is still emanating 0:00:56.436 --> 0:00:59.356 from his youth. Jack also has a work ethic and 0:00:59.396 --> 0:01:03.156 a business ethos Unlike most his labeled Third Man Records 0:01:03.196 --> 0:01:06.076 has a rich roster of artists, with three retail stores 0:01:06.116 --> 0:01:09.636 in Detroit, Nashville, and London. They also own one of 0:01:09.636 --> 0:01:12.756 the few fully operational vinyl pressing plants in the US, 0:01:12.996 --> 0:01:15.556 which has been working overtime lately to keep up with 0:01:15.556 --> 0:01:19.236 the surging demand for vinyl. Jack also released two full 0:01:19.316 --> 0:01:23.276 length albums this year that perfectly document his present creative life, 0:01:23.716 --> 0:01:27.476 and he's on a worldwide tour promoting those records. After 0:01:27.516 --> 0:01:30.356 a recent two nights stand in La, Jack stopped by 0:01:30.356 --> 0:01:33.076 Shangar Law to speak with Rick Rubin about the early 0:01:33.116 --> 0:01:36.316 garage rock scene in Detroit that helped shape him, what 0:01:36.476 --> 0:01:38.916 makes the Seven Nation Army Guitar Riff one of the 0:01:39.076 --> 0:01:42.676 greatest earworms of all time? And then Jack treats Rick 0:01:42.876 --> 0:01:46.756 and a legendary surprise guest to an acoustic performance of 0:01:46.836 --> 0:01:49.676 his new song A Tip from You to Me, And 0:01:49.756 --> 0:01:52.916 to cap it all off, we'll hear exclusive details about 0:01:52.956 --> 0:01:55.916 an exciting new project Rick's been working on that'll be 0:01:55.996 --> 0:02:01.956 out soon. This is broken record liner notes for the 0:02:01.996 --> 0:02:05.876 Digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's Rick Rubin and Jack 0:02:05.956 --> 0:02:09.036 White from Shangar La. Are you on the road now? Yeah? 0:02:09.316 --> 0:02:11.316 We just did uh these last two nights we played 0:02:11.316 --> 0:02:15.116 in town and then uh day off today. So yeah, 0:02:15.116 --> 0:02:16.916 so you said, hey, so it would be a good 0:02:16.956 --> 0:02:19.556 time because I've been wanting to having excuse to come 0:02:19.556 --> 0:02:23.116 out here again. And what's the current band situation? So 0:02:23.276 --> 0:02:26.756 three guys with me drums, bass and keys, and guys 0:02:26.796 --> 0:02:30.276 who've played with before. Yes, Dominic Davis who's on bass, 0:02:30.276 --> 0:02:33.076 and we've been playing together since we're like thirteen, we 0:02:33.396 --> 0:02:38.156 go way back to Detroit and Dary Jones on drums 0:02:38.276 --> 0:02:41.356 and who's probably I think, really think the most unique 0:02:41.396 --> 0:02:46.356 drummer around today really, and then Quincy McCrary plays keys 0:02:46.396 --> 0:02:50.156 and sings harmonies too. I debated going on as a 0:02:50.156 --> 0:02:51.836 three piece. I always wanted to do that, and I 0:02:51.916 --> 0:02:54.596 got to try that out on when we did Saturday 0:02:54.676 --> 0:02:57.436 Night Live year and a half ago or whatever it was. 0:02:57.476 --> 0:03:00.516 It um that was a good moment because we weren't 0:03:00.556 --> 0:03:04.156 pushing anything or anything. So we did that, and I felt, oh, well, 0:03:04.196 --> 0:03:06.676 that would be nice tour as a trio. But but 0:03:06.716 --> 0:03:09.196 then there's a whole like bank of like forty songs 0:03:09.236 --> 0:03:11.556 that have keyboards that we wouldn't really be able to 0:03:11.556 --> 0:03:14.156 perform and that we have to just kind of cross 0:03:14.236 --> 0:03:17.436 that off. Those feels an obligation to have keyboards in 0:03:17.476 --> 0:03:20.236 a keyboard song, though, do you basically do a three 0:03:20.276 --> 0:03:23.036 piece band cover of Yes, I would love that. My 0:03:23.196 --> 0:03:25.556 my worry was that, you know, I even worried about 0:03:25.556 --> 0:03:27.996 that in the Noise Chris, which was breaking things up 0:03:27.996 --> 0:03:30.516 and sometimes playing keys or synth on a song or 0:03:30.556 --> 0:03:32.636 acoustic on the song. So it wasn't the same. You're 0:03:32.636 --> 0:03:34.916 not hearing the same tones over and over and over again. 0:03:35.356 --> 0:03:38.996 That's always my concern, and I don't want things to 0:03:39.036 --> 0:03:42.196 sound whimpy either, you know. So sometimes I love an 0:03:42.236 --> 0:03:45.476 acoustic track, but playing it live, you're in that room 0:03:45.556 --> 0:03:48.436 and it's you just got done playing three very fast 0:03:48.516 --> 0:03:50.596 rock and roll songs, and you feel like, I'm you 0:03:50.636 --> 0:03:53.196 can't tell if you're losing them the audience, or or 0:03:53.236 --> 0:03:56.476 if they're actually just if they're actually listening, paying attention 0:03:56.556 --> 0:03:59.556 more or something, you know. So it's hard to know, 0:03:59.836 --> 0:04:01.996 but I like that because it keeps me on edge 0:04:02.036 --> 0:04:06.796 the whole time. Yeah, what's two relationship to rocking materials 0:04:06.916 --> 0:04:11.196 versus non rocking material in general? Yeah, I sometimes think 0:04:11.236 --> 0:04:14.276 that the things that I like more are not as 0:04:14.316 --> 0:04:18.676 appealing to other people. Like, for example, a great example 0:04:18.756 --> 0:04:21.596 is I really can would just like to be a drummer, 0:04:21.676 --> 0:04:24.996 you know, but I know that my drumming is just 0:04:25.876 --> 0:04:29.196 you know, it doesn't capture people and capture their attention 0:04:29.236 --> 0:04:31.476 and make them go wow, wait a minute, you know, 0:04:31.556 --> 0:04:33.476 or you know, or like, I play piano, but no 0:04:33.516 --> 0:04:36.276 one considers me a piano player by any means. I 0:04:36.316 --> 0:04:39.916 definitely wouldn't claim that either, but it for some reason. 0:04:39.956 --> 0:04:42.196 When I play guitar, it connects with people and they 0:04:42.276 --> 0:04:44.476 come back with feedback, and they give me feedback and 0:04:44.956 --> 0:04:48.756 want to push me to keep doing that. Where that's 0:04:48.796 --> 0:04:51.356 the one instrument for the I like that. The last 0:04:51.356 --> 0:04:53.276 one I would pick was guitar, you know. I mean, 0:04:53.356 --> 0:04:56.236 just like everybody plays guitar. It's been done a million times, 0:04:56.276 --> 0:04:58.756 and how do you have your own voice and uniqueness 0:04:58.796 --> 0:05:02.356 to it? And maybe because of my sort of carelessness 0:05:02.436 --> 0:05:06.316 about that, maybe by accident there's some uniqueness ended up 0:05:06.316 --> 0:05:09.476 happening because of me sort of thinking, oh whatever, I 0:05:09.516 --> 0:05:12.076 guess interesting. It's like if you want to or if 0:05:12.076 --> 0:05:15.116 you wrote a poem and you could read it out 0:05:15.156 --> 0:05:16.516 loud and you maybe you could get a few people 0:05:16.516 --> 0:05:18.356 to pay attention and get something out of it and 0:05:18.396 --> 0:05:20.956 connect with some other people. If you put it to 0:05:21.596 --> 0:05:23.716 melody and sing those words are reading, then all of 0:05:23.716 --> 0:05:26.076 a sudden you get more people paying attention. Possibly, And 0:05:26.076 --> 0:05:27.676 then if you put music behind it and then a 0:05:27.756 --> 0:05:29.996 rhythm behind who knows, you could go to a billion 0:05:29.996 --> 0:05:32.396 people could be interested in. I think that's kind of 0:05:32.436 --> 0:05:35.396 the way I feel like, Okay, this is the window 0:05:35.436 --> 0:05:37.716 to if I can tell the story to if I 0:05:37.756 --> 0:05:39.636 need to use this instrument to do it. Okay, if 0:05:39.636 --> 0:05:42.516 that's what you want, Okay, yeah, let's do that. Can 0:05:42.556 --> 0:05:45.636 you imagine with your love of drums, could you imagine 0:05:45.756 --> 0:05:48.316 playing drums for a band that already connected with people 0:05:48.356 --> 0:05:50.956 on a different level where it wasn't on you to 0:05:51.036 --> 0:05:52.876 be the connector, but you could just be the drummer. 0:05:52.876 --> 0:05:55.236 It'd be great. It'd be great. Yeah. I played drums 0:05:55.276 --> 0:05:57.076 in my band, The Dead Weather on the drummer in 0:05:57.116 --> 0:05:59.876 that band, but it's a darker band. It's more esoteric 0:05:59.876 --> 0:06:02.676 and darker. So it's not really we never intended to 0:06:02.796 --> 0:06:05.556 have it at hoping it had a large popular reach 0:06:05.636 --> 0:06:08.596 or anything like that. It sounds like a cynical hipster 0:06:08.676 --> 0:06:10.796 thing to say, like an on purpose trying not to 0:06:10.996 --> 0:06:14.676 you know whatever. But it really wasn't that way. I'm 0:06:14.676 --> 0:06:17.036 saying that because I didn't wasn't expecting. Oh great, the 0:06:17.116 --> 0:06:21.756 heat's off me. Yeah I can just drump, but um, yeah, 0:06:21.796 --> 0:06:23.876 I'll be wonderful, you know, it would be wonderful to 0:06:23.956 --> 0:06:27.596 be that. Tell me about your relationship to success in 0:06:27.716 --> 0:06:31.636 terms of when you're writing, do you ever think who's 0:06:31.676 --> 0:06:34.636 going to like this, or what's the right presentation to 0:06:34.676 --> 0:06:39.356 make somebody respond. I early on, coming on the sort 0:06:39.356 --> 0:06:41.596 of the de garage rock scene in Detroit, it was 0:06:41.636 --> 0:06:44.876 a lot of people who were talented, who were keeping 0:06:44.876 --> 0:06:47.916 themselves down on purpose or boxing themselves in a weird 0:06:48.836 --> 0:06:52.196 way of not wanting to succeed in any way or 0:06:52.196 --> 0:06:54.956 to grow in any bigger way. I always thought that's 0:06:54.956 --> 0:06:57.076 a really strange thing. It's almost like a painter who 0:06:57.076 --> 0:06:59.756 never puts his paintings up on the wall or puts 0:06:59.756 --> 0:07:02.676 them in a gallery. I mean, if you're not sharing 0:07:02.716 --> 0:07:05.076 with other people, I guess what's the point. You know, 0:07:05.676 --> 0:07:08.276 you're just doing it. You're by yourself. Maybe you should 0:07:08.276 --> 0:07:10.596 just stay at home or something that's just a hobbying. 0:07:11.196 --> 0:07:12.836 But if you're going up on stage and you're putting 0:07:12.836 --> 0:07:14.676 on a record with your name on it or whatever, 0:07:14.836 --> 0:07:17.236 it feels like you're already in that world anyway, You're 0:07:17.236 --> 0:07:20.196 already sharing with other people. I guess people always say 0:07:20.236 --> 0:07:22.436 something like, doesn't it make you mad that they play 0:07:22.516 --> 0:07:26.076 your seven Nation Army song at sports stadium? So why 0:07:26.076 --> 0:07:28.876 would that make me mad? I mean, I think krik 0:07:28.916 --> 0:07:30.916 Combing sort of brought a little bit more of that 0:07:30.996 --> 0:07:34.436 to the to the surface of punk rock guilt. Where 0:07:34.436 --> 0:07:38.356 you're he may have felt felt guilty about the attention 0:07:39.236 --> 0:07:42.156 from what I hear or from it's always gathered about him, 0:07:42.156 --> 0:07:44.716 And I felt like that was definitely as a vibe 0:07:44.716 --> 0:07:46.716 in that sort of the hipster garage rock world that 0:07:46.716 --> 0:07:48.236 we came out of, was that you're almost supposed to 0:07:48.236 --> 0:07:50.996 be ashamed if something worked out. Well, it's odd and 0:07:51.196 --> 0:07:54.636 add it's an odd way of thinking about it. I 0:07:54.676 --> 0:07:58.036 think there's some belief and I do not. I do 0:07:58.116 --> 0:08:02.356 not subscribe to this belief that if something successful, it 0:08:02.436 --> 0:08:05.196 can't be good, right, And I don't think that's right. 0:08:05.236 --> 0:08:07.476 I really don't think that's right. I think a lot 0:08:07.516 --> 0:08:09.996 of the stuff that's successful I might not like. Yeah, 0:08:10.036 --> 0:08:13.316 but things do breakthrough that are amazing. Yeah, and those 0:08:13.356 --> 0:08:17.476 are the revolutionary things. Yes. I mean there'll be times, 0:08:17.476 --> 0:08:19.676 so there'll be a pop song where you might instantly 0:08:19.916 --> 0:08:23.076 hear it and be cynical about it and say, oh God, 0:08:23.116 --> 0:08:25.956 give me a break, you know, or a cliche or 0:08:25.996 --> 0:08:30.556 it's a pretensists or something like that. And then what 0:08:30.836 --> 0:08:33.716 what I'll do is I'll realize, you know, that's hard, man, 0:08:33.836 --> 0:08:35.676 that's really hard. If you want to sit down and 0:08:35.676 --> 0:08:38.636 write a hit, that's gonna be number one on the 0:08:38.716 --> 0:08:43.236 charts or whatever, especially nowadays, that's no easy task, and 0:08:43.716 --> 0:08:45.476 so then you have to give credit for that, Like, hey, 0:08:45.516 --> 0:08:47.196 even if you don't like it, you gotta give someone credit. 0:08:47.316 --> 0:08:49.396 They actually made it work. I figured it out. Even 0:08:49.436 --> 0:08:51.236 if they wanted to do it every single time, they 0:08:51.236 --> 0:08:53.796 couldn't do it. So you start thinking about that way, 0:08:53.956 --> 0:08:57.436 and then maybe sometimes like time passes and you start realizing, wow, 0:08:57.716 --> 0:09:01.956 that was really an important, beautiful thing that happened when 0:09:01.956 --> 0:09:04.716 that song became pub even novelty songs, yes, Like I 0:09:04.756 --> 0:09:06.476 think of songs in the eighties that I thought were 0:09:06.476 --> 0:09:08.836 just you know, these novelty, goofy things that were on 0:09:08.876 --> 0:09:11.156 the radio. Then now when I look back, I'm like, wow, 0:09:11.276 --> 0:09:15.436 damn you know take on me by Aha, incredible. Wow. 0:09:16.516 --> 0:09:19.716 Think about the structure of the melody of that vocal alone, 0:09:19.836 --> 0:09:22.556 let alone the production of it. And if you would 0:09:22.556 --> 0:09:25.156 ask me when I was whatever, ten, twelve, I've one whatever. 0:09:25.756 --> 0:09:28.716 But now I have immense respect for certain things like that, 0:09:28.756 --> 0:09:31.076 And it's it's funny that those things click with you 0:09:31.636 --> 0:09:33.436 at times, but I guess it's part of the craft. 0:09:33.436 --> 0:09:36.476 When you get yourself involved in the craft and you 0:09:36.556 --> 0:09:39.396 care about it and you're open minded. Yeah, I feel 0:09:39.396 --> 0:09:43.116 like maybe everyone has a choice psyche as they age, 0:09:43.396 --> 0:09:45.196 you have a choice to go down this darker road 0:09:45.276 --> 0:09:47.756 where you become more and more close minded and more 0:09:47.756 --> 0:09:51.996 cynical and more hateful of anything that's different and and 0:09:51.716 --> 0:09:55.676 and scarier or imposing or you you you stay down 0:09:55.676 --> 0:09:58.316 this road where you get more and more open minded, 0:09:58.476 --> 0:10:01.236 more and more enlightened as you go, because you want 0:10:01.316 --> 0:10:04.196 to keep experiencing and you want to meet new people 0:10:04.356 --> 0:10:07.996 and hear new things. It's almost enough some kind of 0:10:08.076 --> 0:10:12.196 unconscious choice. Yeah. I used to think when I was younger, Hey, 0:10:12.316 --> 0:10:16.236 you know some old timer musicians coming to town and 0:10:16.276 --> 0:10:18.556 they're playing this club and we go see you and say, hey, 0:10:18.836 --> 0:10:20.716 come and talk to us after the show, and they 0:10:20.716 --> 0:10:23.116 wouldn't want to. And I was like, God, that would 0:10:23.116 --> 0:10:25.556 be terrible. I wonder why they're so grumpy and grouchy. 0:10:25.676 --> 0:10:31.916 Well now I can see you're grouchy. Well I can 0:10:31.996 --> 0:10:33.956 see that. It's like there's been moments in my life 0:10:33.996 --> 0:10:35.796 where I could definitely have gone down that road, Like 0:10:35.836 --> 0:10:37.356 why I finished my show at getting a car and 0:10:37.396 --> 0:10:40.076 go to the hotel and not talk to anybody. I 0:10:40.116 --> 0:10:43.436 could see someone making that choice and why they would 0:10:43.476 --> 0:10:45.436 make that choice. But you have to sort of shake 0:10:45.476 --> 0:10:47.396 that off and like, yeah, but you miss so much 0:10:47.996 --> 0:10:50.236 And in a way, it's like a giving up for 0:10:50.276 --> 0:10:53.796 selfish you know, for selfishness. You know. Also it is 0:10:53.836 --> 0:10:57.836 a grueling I imagine it's grueling on the road, just 0:10:57.916 --> 0:10:59.996 like having to do it all the time. Yeah, and 0:11:00.076 --> 0:11:02.796 there's only so much energy, and you want the show 0:11:02.836 --> 0:11:05.636 to be good every night, so it seems like everything 0:11:05.716 --> 0:11:08.716 other than the show might suffer for the show to 0:11:08.756 --> 0:11:10.916 be all but it could be. Yeah. When I see 0:11:11.116 --> 0:11:13.116 acts that are sort of maybe doing the same set 0:11:13.116 --> 0:11:15.236 every night and they have the pyrotechniques go off in 0:11:15.276 --> 0:11:17.756 song three and all that, I get a little jealous 0:11:17.796 --> 0:11:20.396 because I don't have a set list in my set. 0:11:20.476 --> 0:11:22.436 So when I see that, I'm like, oh man, it 0:11:22.476 --> 0:11:24.396 would be so easy, and it would be so now 0:11:24.436 --> 0:11:26.476 you just go up there, or say someone who stands 0:11:26.516 --> 0:11:30.276 still and sort of just can sing, like Willie Nelson 0:11:30.356 --> 0:11:32.756 doesn't really need to do anything, and you didn't do 0:11:32.876 --> 0:11:36.156 acrobatics or anything. That voice is it. He's got it. 0:11:36.156 --> 0:11:39.596 It doesn't even probably require too much energy to push 0:11:39.676 --> 0:11:42.556 it out of himself. And it's amazing every time you 0:11:42.596 --> 0:11:44.316 know I don't have that. You know, I don't have 0:11:44.636 --> 0:11:46.476 a singer's voice. I'm not a singer and I'm not 0:11:46.516 --> 0:11:49.116 even that kind of the character vocalist of like a Wheelie. 0:11:49.956 --> 0:11:52.556 I feel like to make something nice a Wednesday night 0:11:52.636 --> 0:11:54.996 in Poughkeepsie and you want this show to be great 0:11:54.996 --> 0:11:57.996 as it was, you know, Saturday night in New York City, 0:11:58.116 --> 0:12:01.596 And well, what am I gonna do? And first you 0:12:01.636 --> 0:12:04.716 have to care, you know, And there's another fork in 0:12:04.716 --> 0:12:07.676 the road where you find these moments where like, wow, 0:12:08.196 --> 0:12:10.156 you can see easily how quickly you'd want to give 0:12:10.236 --> 0:12:13.516 up and just go stay in the tour buss. I 0:12:13.516 --> 0:12:16.796 remember someone telling me that they were like, yeah, I 0:12:16.876 --> 0:12:18.956 used to look at the shows like, you know, two 0:12:19.036 --> 0:12:21.476 more songs and I get to go watch TV on 0:12:21.476 --> 0:12:23.796 the tour bus and one more song and wow, get 0:12:23.796 --> 0:12:26.036 out of here. I'm like, please, God, don't want that 0:12:26.076 --> 0:12:27.876 happen to me. Yeah, you know that would be I 0:12:28.396 --> 0:12:29.476 would just I know what I would do. I just 0:12:29.516 --> 0:12:31.396 wouldn't do her any Yeah, and I can't imagine the 0:12:31.396 --> 0:12:34.116 shows are very good. If that's the attitude of the performer, 0:12:34.396 --> 0:12:38.156 campy I get, you know, or say, if what's popular 0:12:38.196 --> 0:12:41.716 now Vegas residencies are popular now and I can get 0:12:41.996 --> 0:12:44.396 the repeal of that, you know, like maybe there's artists 0:12:44.396 --> 0:12:46.596 like they get paid already no matter who shows up, 0:12:46.996 --> 0:12:49.116 it's the same dressing room every night. You get to 0:12:49.476 --> 0:12:51.516 take a private jet home to LA every night if 0:12:51.516 --> 0:12:54.516 you want to, or all these benefits and niceties and stuff. 0:12:54.676 --> 0:12:57.276 So I could see all that, but then I think, 0:12:58.636 --> 0:12:59.956 I don't know if it would work for me. I 0:13:00.276 --> 0:13:02.636 would feel like I gave up, like for my own 0:13:02.676 --> 0:13:05.596 personal music. No judgment on that. Some people that makes 0:13:05.596 --> 0:13:07.876 If you're Tom Jones, that's it, man, That's that's the 0:13:07.916 --> 0:13:10.356 way to go for what he's doing it out. He's 0:13:10.596 --> 0:13:13.356 he's got the pipes for that. And maybe it would 0:13:13.356 --> 0:13:15.476 work for a Willy Nelson and in a way in 0:13:16.036 --> 0:13:18.676 the write environment or something. But maybe for me, I 0:13:18.676 --> 0:13:20.876 would think, a man, how would how could I do 0:13:20.916 --> 0:13:23.596 that and not give up and make it a different 0:13:23.636 --> 0:13:26.756 show every night and have energy to it? That would 0:13:26.756 --> 0:13:29.636 almost be It's o unchallenging and sounds really fun, like 0:13:29.636 --> 0:13:31.916 that could be fun. It could be interesting way to 0:13:31.916 --> 0:13:35.156 do it. Have you ever seen Willie Live? Yes? Yeah, yeah, 0:13:35.196 --> 0:13:38.756 it's incredible, it's great, It's incredible. Yeah, it's it's not 0:13:38.796 --> 0:13:42.196 what I expected before, before I'd ever seen him. Yeah, 0:13:42.196 --> 0:13:43.956 I assumed it was going to be more like a 0:13:44.076 --> 0:13:47.396 country concert, and it was more like a Ramons concert 0:13:47.436 --> 0:13:49.716 other than the fact that he the songs that he's singing. 0:13:49.756 --> 0:13:54.036 But yes, it was song on top of song to 0:13:54.236 --> 0:13:56.716 a song onto a Yeah, it was relentless and then yeah, 0:13:56.756 --> 0:13:58.276 they do this like you do, like a little build 0:13:58.316 --> 0:13:59.956 up that you think would be like that. It's almost 0:14:00.036 --> 0:14:02.036 like whimpy for a second and it's like no, no, 0:14:02.116 --> 0:14:05.356 no, no no, no no, no time well scaring Ramon, don't 0:14:05.436 --> 0:14:08.396 run drop and you're like, damn that that took. He 0:14:08.436 --> 0:14:11.596 didn't even really he raised his voice, but all of 0:14:11.636 --> 0:14:14.316 a sudden the energy went bammed like maybe with one 0:14:14.316 --> 0:14:17.756 little snare hit. Yeah, and so much to learn from 0:14:17.756 --> 0:14:20.956 that and him as a guitar player, so punk rock, 0:14:21.516 --> 0:14:25.356 so punk. I mean that guy his guitar solos. If 0:14:25.396 --> 0:14:29.556 you haven't listened to a Willie Nelson guitar solo, you know, anybody, 0:14:30.236 --> 0:14:33.196 I always say, god man, just type in Willie Nelson 0:14:33.196 --> 0:14:35.516 guitar solo on the Internet and listen to what he does. 0:14:35.556 --> 0:14:39.396 You won't believe it at first, You'll wait what you know, 0:14:39.516 --> 0:14:43.236 and it is so punk and so carefree and such 0:14:43.236 --> 0:14:47.996 a rebellious thing that I just kind of can't believe 0:14:47.996 --> 0:14:50.836 he got away with that, even even in the different 0:14:50.916 --> 0:14:52.636 environments he's worked in all the time. It's like, damn, 0:14:52.636 --> 0:14:56.356 that's a real rebellious, outsider way to attack the guitar. 0:14:57.236 --> 0:15:00.436 And in the instrument he plays, the strange acoustic electric 0:15:00.716 --> 0:15:04.196 hybrid deck has a matching amp built by like Worltzer 0:15:04.276 --> 0:15:05.916 or something. I forget what company made it, but it's 0:15:05.956 --> 0:15:09.716 a bizarre instrument that he shows that nobody else has 0:15:09.796 --> 0:15:12.716 as well, So very unique. I wouldn't have thought to 0:15:12.716 --> 0:15:15.316 ask us before, but you talked about a song that 0:15:15.356 --> 0:15:20.516 plays in soccer stadiums. Have you ever tried to analyze 0:15:20.636 --> 0:15:25.756 what it is about Seven Nation Army that has transcended 0:15:26.556 --> 0:15:29.716 not only the rest of your work, but the rest 0:15:29.756 --> 0:15:33.796 of any rock artist's work of you know, it's like 0:15:33.836 --> 0:15:39.076 it's it's it has had a really unusual life, bizarre, Yeah, 0:15:39.116 --> 0:15:42.916 anything that you've noticed, maybe from playing it live, anything 0:15:42.956 --> 0:15:47.156 in you know, being a someone who studies music, you know, 0:15:47.196 --> 0:15:50.916 we we we are passion has study music, we love 0:15:51.516 --> 0:15:53.716 trying to understand why it does what it does. You 0:15:53.796 --> 0:15:56.476 have any thoughts. I've heard lots of opinions about it 0:15:56.516 --> 0:15:59.676 over the years, you know, some being really positive and 0:16:00.036 --> 0:16:02.236 feeling it's groundbreaking. Other people trying to sort of like 0:16:02.276 --> 0:16:04.356 take it away from me, or or I say I 0:16:04.396 --> 0:16:07.276 copied something that are on the negative side, and other 0:16:07.276 --> 0:16:11.836 people thinking that it's possibly you know, I don't know 0:16:11.836 --> 0:16:13.476 what the word is, but you know, something like when 0:16:13.556 --> 0:16:16.556 music is a related to a heartbeat, or that it's 0:16:17.076 --> 0:16:19.276 it has an organicness to it that we that maybe 0:16:19.276 --> 0:16:24.156 just got accidentally unearthed in that scenario. But I did 0:16:24.196 --> 0:16:26.956 read an article once about why do we like music 0:16:26.996 --> 0:16:29.916 at all? From a scientists point of view, and it was, 0:16:30.076 --> 0:16:32.356 you know, really scientific and methodical, and it was an 0:16:32.356 --> 0:16:36.676 interesting thing. The theory in this article was the brain 0:16:36.796 --> 0:16:39.676 is trying to make patterns and make sense of patterns, 0:16:40.196 --> 0:16:44.476 and that we find a thrill and when we can 0:16:44.796 --> 0:16:47.516 complete the melody pattern in our head or guess what 0:16:47.556 --> 0:16:50.076 it's going to be. You know, you can guess if 0:16:50.076 --> 0:16:53.556 you go, I know the last two notes are going 0:16:53.596 --> 0:16:56.636 to be you know, maybe that's a pleasantness to that. 0:16:56.956 --> 0:17:03.476 And then when you don't do that, waiting so we 0:17:03.956 --> 0:17:07.636 resolve it and then maybe that gets into like why 0:17:07.676 --> 0:17:09.916 horror films are appealing to be like it shouldn't on 0:17:09.916 --> 0:17:11.556 paper and be like, well, why would you want to 0:17:11.596 --> 0:17:14.156 be scared? That doesn't make any sense, But we like it. 0:17:14.196 --> 0:17:17.156 We find it a thrill and maybe that seven Nation 0:17:17.276 --> 0:17:23.836 Army with the melodies. There seems to be two moments 0:17:23.876 --> 0:17:26.476 in there if I were to analyze it, and I'm 0:17:26.476 --> 0:17:29.316 just taking guys, I have no idea, but this is 0:17:29.436 --> 0:17:33.236 you know that sounds like you're gonna go up like 0:17:35.476 --> 0:17:37.796 or something like that, but you go up and then 0:17:37.796 --> 0:17:43.356 you quickly change direction. No, no, no no, now I'm going 0:17:43.396 --> 0:17:45.516 back down. That gets you to pay attention. Yeah, so wait, 0:17:45.516 --> 0:17:48.556 what's how's it gonna resolve? Why did it change direction? Exactly? 0:17:48.556 --> 0:17:53.036 Why did it change direction? So then you got and 0:17:53.076 --> 0:17:54.636 then this next one is sort of why I think 0:17:54.716 --> 0:17:59.556 is maybe like the horror movie thing. Then like whoa, okay, 0:17:59.636 --> 0:18:02.076 I guess I agree to that. You know it's not 0:18:02.156 --> 0:18:05.036 an actual full result, so like, yeah, I can, I can. 0:18:05.156 --> 0:18:07.156 I can deal with that. Your brain can maybe say yeah, 0:18:07.156 --> 0:18:08.836 I can do with it. I don't know, it's just 0:18:08.836 --> 0:18:11.476 a y that maybe maybe those two little moments or 0:18:11.516 --> 0:18:14.516 what is it? The riff? Would you say the song 0:18:14.636 --> 0:18:17.996 is the riff. Yes, yeah, okay. The funny thing was 0:18:18.036 --> 0:18:20.276 that I was at the time. I remember saying, to 0:18:20.316 --> 0:18:22.156 make this will be great. I want to The challenge 0:18:22.196 --> 0:18:23.436 for me right now is I want to write a 0:18:23.476 --> 0:18:25.796 song with no chorus and make it something people like 0:18:25.876 --> 0:18:28.436 that doesn't have any chorus. So that was at that 0:18:28.516 --> 0:18:32.476 moment the challenge in the studio. Very briefly, we didn't 0:18:32.516 --> 0:18:34.316 We didn't spend much time on that song, you know, 0:18:34.396 --> 0:18:36.276 and uh, but I remember that being like, oh, this 0:18:36.276 --> 0:18:37.836 will be great. I won't write a chorus for this 0:18:38.236 --> 0:18:40.996 doesn't need one. We'll just keep hammering this and then 0:18:41.036 --> 0:18:44.196 we'll play off the loud quietness of Maybe the grung 0:18:44.396 --> 0:18:46.636 era can be part of that. And there's also slide 0:18:46.636 --> 0:18:49.596 guitar and a two and it's also sort of like 0:18:49.636 --> 0:18:51.676 a bass, but I'm not really playing bass. I'm playing 0:18:51.676 --> 0:18:53.716 a D tune guitar. So there was like, yeah, that's 0:18:53.796 --> 0:18:57.236 enough for the things that I think are interesting, so interesting? 0:18:57.436 --> 0:19:00.236 Did you play guitar barely like punk rock? You know, 0:19:00.316 --> 0:19:05.156 like rudimentary guitar who it plays guitar on like the 0:19:05.276 --> 0:19:10.036 Beastie Boys of I know that the first album. That's okay, 0:19:10.196 --> 0:19:11.836 I didn't know that. I really I thought you were 0:19:11.836 --> 0:19:15.116 going to mention, say some studio guys and Gray, what 0:19:15.236 --> 0:19:19.836 guitar did you use for that? I had an SG 0:19:20.356 --> 0:19:24.636 Junior fifty six s G Junior nice and that was 0:19:24.836 --> 0:19:27.396 that was my main guitar. And then I remember I 0:19:27.396 --> 0:19:29.716 saw a Slayer and I was really impressed with Slayer 0:19:29.756 --> 0:19:33.836 and um and I met them and carry King got 0:19:33.956 --> 0:19:38.156 me a carry King guitar, like really like a real 0:19:38.276 --> 0:19:40.676 metal guitar. Yeah, and I think I might have played 0:19:40.716 --> 0:19:44.356 one solo on that. I can't I can't remember exactly, 0:19:44.436 --> 0:19:45.916 but I remember I had that and then I ended 0:19:45.996 --> 0:19:47.996 up sending the guitar back after using it on me 0:19:48.156 --> 0:19:51.276 acause I didn't really like it, but just like, oh 0:19:51.316 --> 0:19:53.356 this is fun for this kind of a thing. Yeah yeah, 0:19:53.396 --> 0:19:55.756 yeah yeah, but why didn't add Rock play? Why did 0:19:55.796 --> 0:19:57.596 you play guitar that? I don't really know? Yeah, I 0:19:57.636 --> 0:20:00.956 don't really know. It wasn't also the concept of the 0:20:00.996 --> 0:20:04.796 Beastie Boys as rappers, maybe they just did it had 0:20:04.836 --> 0:20:08.196 no instrumentation. It wasn't supposed to be that because when 0:20:08.236 --> 0:20:10.396 they played it was more like what the BC Boys 0:20:10.396 --> 0:20:12.636 the band sounded like, and we were doing something really 0:20:12.636 --> 0:20:15.356 different than that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I always had 0:20:15.476 --> 0:20:17.636 a sneaking suspicion, Like when I was like eighteen or another. 0:20:17.716 --> 0:20:19.356 He was like, I get the feeling after I heard 0:20:19.356 --> 0:20:22.516 their punk records. I get the feeling like they did 0:20:22.516 --> 0:20:25.316