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Speaker 1: Half a trillion dollars with the stroke of a pen,

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Speaker 1: which would obviously be the most expensive executive order ever

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Speaker 1: and incredibly unfair and not progressive. So, UM, I would

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Speaker 1: like to live in a world where you could just

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Speaker 1: declare that stupid and unfair and have it go away.

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Speaker 1: But you can't do that. You have to go through

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Speaker 1: all the legal reasons for doing it. And so a

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Speaker 1: lot of legal experts were saying, yeah, it sounds illegal,

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Speaker 1: but who are you gonna find withstanding that can actually sue,

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Speaker 1: that can bring that forward. And it looks like we

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Speaker 1: have our first case. Yeah. Indeed, the Pacific Legal Foundation

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Speaker 1: is taking the lead, and Allison Suman is a legal

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Speaker 1: fellow with a Center for the Separation of Powers at

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Speaker 1: the Pacific Legal Foundation, here to talk about the lawsuit

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Speaker 1: and and the topics that surrounded Allison. How are you

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Speaker 1: do it? Well? Thank you, it's great to be here.

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Speaker 1: How are you today? We're terrific, We're glad you're here.

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Speaker 1: I'm disappointed that you can't just declare something, uh, stupid

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Speaker 1: and unfair and it's good enough. So I feel that

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Speaker 1: way to having been on various cases like these. UM,

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Speaker 1: let me talk a little bit about what's going on here.

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Speaker 1: So I think you already alluded to this concept of standing.

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Speaker 1: And as you suggested a moment ago, if you have

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Speaker 1: a grievance with the government, if you think what they're

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Speaker 1: doing is wrong or stupid or offensive, be that as

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Speaker 1: it may, that's not enough to get you into court.

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Speaker 1: You have to be able to show that you're injured

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Speaker 1: in a concrete way, in a tangible way before you

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Speaker 1: can get into court and make your case to a judge.

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Speaker 1: And who did you find that that fits that description

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Speaker 1: for this particular executive order? So this is a little

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Speaker 1: bit unusual. One of our very own employees, Frank Garrison,

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Speaker 1: who is a lawyer with US. I've worked with him

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Speaker 1: before in a different project. He is eligible for loan

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Speaker 1: forgiveness under the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program. This is

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Speaker 1: at a completely separate federal program where if you work

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Speaker 1: for a qualifying nonprofit or government organization for or ten years,

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Speaker 1: because these organizations tend to do worthwhile work and tend

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Speaker 1: not to pay a lot, if you stay in those

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Speaker 1: jobs and show the differment of education that you've been

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Speaker 1: staying in that job after ten years, they will forgive

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Speaker 1: the balance on your loans. Frank works for US or

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Speaker 1: a qualified nonprofit. So if he stays with US for

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Speaker 1: about another I believe about four years, give her take

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Speaker 1: his his remaining debt will be wiped out by the

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Speaker 1: government and he would not owe tax on that wiped

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Speaker 1: out debt under the law that created those rules. So

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Speaker 1: where's his injury though, what's his complain about that? That

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Speaker 1: sounds like something he would like. Okay, I'm I'm getting

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Speaker 1: to that. I'm sorry. So, because Biden wiped out twenty

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Speaker 1: dollars of Frank's debt early before he would qualify for

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Speaker 1: that loan forgiveness, he faces attacks um under Indiana state law.

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Speaker 1: Under Indiana law, if if someone owes you, if you

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Speaker 1: owe someone a debt and then that person wipes out

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Speaker 1: your debt, you borrow money for a call are and

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Speaker 1: then the other person says, you know what, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to cleft up money back from you. That's considered

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Speaker 1: part of your income, and so you owe tax on that.

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Speaker 1: So Frank, who is expecting no tax bill for having

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Speaker 1: his debt wept out later, now all of a sudden

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Speaker 1: is getting hit with a tax bill because of the

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Speaker 1: buying executive action. And so that, in his view, gives

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Speaker 1: him standing to sue and take on this big unconstitutional

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Speaker 1: power grap So I have a feeling that I'm asking

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Speaker 1: a question that's going to be answered with the basic

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Speaker 1: concept of constitutional law that I'm just not familiar with.

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Speaker 1: But why not just file suit on behalf of the poor,

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Speaker 1: beleaguered taxpayer, part of whose income is going to be

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Speaker 1: used to finance this program? So that's a great question. UM.

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Speaker 1: Back in the nineties, sixties and seventies, there were cases

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Speaker 1: that went up to the Supreme Court on similar theories

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Speaker 1: of what was called taxpayer standing. It's interesting for me

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Speaker 1: to get this question over the last few days because

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Speaker 1: at the time this was mostly seen as a very

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Speaker 1: liberal cause. The people who were bringing these taxpayer standing

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Speaker 1: suits were environmental activists who are suing the then new

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Speaker 1: Environmental Protection Agency to get it to act more aggressively, UM,

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Speaker 1: to do to control pollution, what have you. And the

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Speaker 1: courts were wary of what a big ep A could

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Speaker 1: do to businesses, so they wanted to limit these environmental

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Speaker 1: cases to situations in which people were actually concretely harmed

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Speaker 1: by supposed environmental degradation. It does have this, These cases

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Speaker 1: do have this somewhat unpredictable result though that when a

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Speaker 1: president does a big power grab like this, Uh, taxpayers

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Speaker 1: or who don't want to be stuck um paying off

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Speaker 1: other people's student loans don't have an obvious recourse. Interesting

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Speaker 1: And just to be clear, you said that was a

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Speaker 1: good question, but then you said everybody has been asking

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Speaker 1: it the last several days. It means very way to

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Speaker 1: undermine me. Wait, did way you know, take away my

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Speaker 1: moment in the sun? So I guess and again I've

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Speaker 1: probably gott to enroll in the constitutional law class, which

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Speaker 1: I haven't taken the thirty years. But um, so the

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Speaker 1: president can do something, to my mind blatantly unconstitutional. I mean,

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Speaker 1: stretch that Heroes Act from the early two thousands beyond

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Speaker 1: recognition and with the stroke of a pen and act legislation.

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Speaker 1: But we've got to find somebody specific who's hurt by it.

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Speaker 1: You can't sue in principle, that's correct. So because so

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Speaker 1: because Frank has this specific injury, he owes tactics under

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Speaker 1: any year of state law. In our view, he qualifies

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Speaker 1: to challenge that big power grabbed by the president. So

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Speaker 1: what about this latest wrinkle in the last twenty four

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Speaker 1: hours where they're trying to get around your particular suit,

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Speaker 1: where the Department of Justice has filed notice confirming that quote,

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Speaker 1: any borrower who qualifies for automatic debt relief will be

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Speaker 1: given an opportunity to opt out, which, according to one

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Speaker 1: Blue check Mark Twitter person said, blows up your entire

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Speaker 1: standing theory. So our attorneys are aware of that, they're

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Speaker 1: looking at it carefully. I believe that they're in court

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Speaker 1: this morning and they're addressing the matter with the judge.

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Speaker 1: We'll see how we'll see how he how he rules

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Speaker 1: on this UM. I would add that I think we

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Speaker 1: would like to see something more official from the Departments

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Speaker 1: of Education and Justice confirming that this is how this

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Speaker 1: will actually work. Because our attorneys looked very carefully at

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Speaker 1: all of the materials prepared by the White House by

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Speaker 1: Department of Education after Biden first announced this policy. At

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Speaker 1: that time, there was no indication of any opt out,

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Speaker 1: and so I think before before we move forward, we

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Speaker 1: would like to see some kind of more official confirmation

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Speaker 1: that there actually is going to be an opt out

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Speaker 1: and that this is how this will work. I would

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Speaker 1: add that ordinarily, efforts by a defendant to evade a

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Speaker 1: judgment and ends them by changing your position abruptly. Are

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Speaker 1: not favored in the federal court. Alison Sulman is a

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Speaker 1: legal fellow at the Center for the Separation of Powers.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm just thinking creatively here, a physical injury

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Speaker 1: would give me standing right. Yes, well, this program chaps

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Speaker 1: my ass and is really painful, no amounting. Yeah, boy, howdy.

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Speaker 1: I hope that maneuver is is unsuccessful, as you suggest,

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Speaker 1: because it's just so frustrating to see the power of

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Speaker 1: the executive and the abuse the abuse of that power

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Speaker 1: just grow by leaps and bounds with every administration, democratic

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Speaker 1: and Republican. We the people, we have to have a defense. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you're a lawyer, so this might not seem as

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Speaker 1: much this way to you as it does to me.

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Speaker 1: But it seems like such a technical, complicated way to

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Speaker 1: go about this when it should be more of just

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Speaker 1: a we can't have one guy who can spend a

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Speaker 1: true half a trillion dollars with one stroke of a pen.

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Speaker 1: I agree this is a really big reach by the

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Speaker 1: president and that it's really troubling for us a specific

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Speaker 1: legal foundation. This isn't really about our having views on

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Speaker 1: what should happen with student loan debt, but on the

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Speaker 1: idea that under our constitutional order of government, the president

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be empowered to make these decisions on his own.

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Speaker 1: This is decision that should be made democratically in the

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Speaker 1: most democratic branch by Congress. The heroes at which Biden

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Speaker 1: has a sort of authority, just doesn't simply support the

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Speaker 1: kind of broad loan forgiveness that his White House claims

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Speaker 1: it does. Clearly, clearly indeed, Allison soone of the Pacific

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Speaker 1: Legal Foundation, a terrific organization, absolutely worthy of everybody's support. Allison,

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Speaker 1: great to talk to you. Let's stay in touch on

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Speaker 1: this case. All right, thank you so much. It was

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Speaker 1: great to be here. Yeah, thank you, our pleasure. Armstrong

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Speaker 1: and Jetty