Speaker 1: M Correlation does not equal causation. So just because you
Speaker 1: can ol hoot turkey call, does not mean that that
Speaker 1: causes you to be a good hunter. If you go
Speaker 1: out with a guy turkey hunting and he rears back
Speaker 1: and al hoots with his mouth or crow calls with
Speaker 1: his mouth, what does that tell you about that guy?
Speaker 1: He's he's authentic. He's a real hunter, right, He's a
Speaker 1: real deal. On this episode of the Bear Grease Podcast,
Speaker 1: we're gonna explore a communication technique is old is mankind
Speaker 1: using the voice to mimic animal sounds. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: understand why humans do this, how it's advantageous for hunting,
Speaker 1: and how natural voice calling has embedded itself into our culture.
Speaker 1: We're gonna talk to the first person I ever heard
Speaker 1: al hoot with their mouth, a PhD who's an expert
Speaker 1: on understanding correlations, an expert on the human voice, and
Speaker 1: we're gonna have a conversation with the world's most decorated
Speaker 1: natural voice turkey caller who's called turkeys on The David
Speaker 1: Letterman Show and The Tonight Show. Gonna be a fun ride. Oh,
Speaker 1: you are a very effective al hooter. From a competitive standpoint,
Speaker 1: get off stage. My name is Clay Nukelem and this
Speaker 1: is the Bear Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten
Speaker 1: but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places, and where
Speaker 1: we'll tell the story of Americans who lived their lives
Speaker 1: close to the land. Mimicking animal sounds to communicate with
Speaker 1: the natural world is as old as the hunt, and
Speaker 1: hunting is as old as mankind. Part of human uniqueness
Speaker 1: as compared to other animals is our ability to use
Speaker 1: our brains to conjure extremely varied strategies to acquire food.
Speaker 1: A small part of the equation is our ability to
Speaker 1: mimic animal sound, and there are many reasons why we
Speaker 1: do this. Humans mimic owls, turkeys, crows, squirrels, quail, white
Speaker 1: tail deer, coyotes, and even hawks. These sounds are used
Speaker 1: in multiple applications. One would be to communicate with other
Speaker 1: humans in incognito ways so that other animals aren't alerted
Speaker 1: to human presence. You know, like a human making some
Speaker 1: type of bird call to let his partners know that
Speaker 1: he's made it to a certain location. Secondly, human hunters
Speaker 1: mimic the sounds made by the animals they're hunting and
Speaker 1: hopes of drawing them into stry king distance. These are
Speaker 1: typically sexually based calls or territorial calls. Elk and turkey
Speaker 1: would be great examples of this. Thirdly, there are relationships
Speaker 1: between animals of different species that evoke predictable responses when
Speaker 1: the call of the other is made. The best example
Speaker 1: of this would be shocked goblin of turkey. This is
Speaker 1: when a breeding crazed male turkey will gobble just about
Speaker 1: any loud sound in the woods, including owl's, woodpeckers, and crows,
Speaker 1: even though his breeding has nothing to do with those animals.
Speaker 1: Another example of this would be the calm feeding sounds
Speaker 1: of one species could indicate to other animals of a
Speaker 1: different species that everything in that section of the woods
Speaker 1: is okay. Basically, it would be like saying there are
Speaker 1: no predators over here because I'm calm and relaxed. A
Speaker 1: good example of this would be like a hen turkey
Speaker 1: making content feeding calls that would calm an approaching theary.
Speaker 1: I'll never forget the first time I heard someone hoot
Speaker 1: like a barred owl. You're about to meet my friend
Speaker 1: Josh Lunsford. Josh is a lanky cowboy type with a
Speaker 1: firm handshake and a strong I gate. But he's a
Speaker 1: corporate executive in the communication business and he's a veteran
Speaker 1: turkey hunter in Woodsman. It may sound funny, but the
Speaker 1: first time I heard Josh al hoot with his mouth,
Speaker 1: it impacted me. I didn't know people could do that,
Speaker 1: and I never forgot it. So Josh, me and you
Speaker 1: were we grew up together. But the first time we
Speaker 1: ever went hunting together was when I was in college
Speaker 1: and I remember telling one of our mutual friends. I
Speaker 1: was like, man, I'm going turkey hunting in the morning,
Speaker 1: and he said, well, I can't go, but Josh is going.
Speaker 1: And so I called you and we said, hey, well
Speaker 1: let's go together. And so we went to a place
Speaker 1: that both of us knew, some public land. We walked
Speaker 1: I presumably we rode together in a truck. This was
Speaker 1: twenty years ago. So we we get out. We walked
Speaker 1: back in there before daylight. It was a place with
Speaker 1: a lot of birds. At the time. I had only
Speaker 1: turkey hut with my dad my whole life, never hunt
Speaker 1: it with another turkey hunter. And I remember it got
Speaker 1: just about daylight, I mean just you know, the birds
Speaker 1: started chirping, and uh, you didn't say anything to me.
Speaker 1: You we were knelt down on the ground and you
Speaker 1: stood up and just oh, you know, you let out
Speaker 1: a big ol hoot. And I remember being so impressed.
Speaker 1: I was just like, holy moley, I'd never heard anybody
Speaker 1: out hoot with their mouth and you didn't think anything
Speaker 1: of you al hoot and a turkey gobbled way over
Speaker 1: on the ridge and we chased them around. Would never
Speaker 1: kill one that day. So I want to hear your
Speaker 1: ol hoot to see if I remember it like I
Speaker 1: remember it that day absolutely so um. And you know,
Speaker 1: and just in just one note, right, mutual friends, I
Speaker 1: had learned it from them. So you hunted with uh
Speaker 1: with our friends Scott Ny, that's right. Did they ever
Speaker 1: formally teach you or did they? They were just like
Speaker 1: you know, it's one of those things where you're hunting
Speaker 1: with people and you witness them doing something and you
Speaker 1: want to get better at it and you want to
Speaker 1: use it the way they did. You know, I grew
Speaker 1: up using it to find someone in the woods, not
Speaker 1: actually use it as a location call. And so that
Speaker 1: was how I learned to use it as a locator calling.
Speaker 1: How it could be so instrumental into making you more
Speaker 1: successful turkey hunting. Right, Um, yeah, I absolutely do it
Speaker 1: for you. Um, you can probably do it as good
Speaker 1: as I can these days. Um. But oh it sounds
Speaker 1: just like I remember it. That's good. If you go
Speaker 1: out with a guy turkey hunting and he rears back
Speaker 1: and our hoots with his mouth or crow calls with
Speaker 1: his mouth, what does that tell you about that guy?
Speaker 1: He's taking the time to test and being better at
Speaker 1: the sport, Right, He's not. He's not just just purchased
Speaker 1: his way into the sport by buying all the gadgets. Right,
Speaker 1: He's He's authentic, he's a he's a real Um, he's
Speaker 1: a real hunter. Right, He's a real deal, you know.
Speaker 1: And and what I'll tell you is, yeah, has it
Speaker 1: made me more successful in a lot of different ways?
Speaker 1: Clay And a simple fact that I don't have to
Speaker 1: carry as much stuff I don't. I don't own an
Speaker 1: al hoot, I don't own a crow call, I don't
Speaker 1: own a box call. I own a couple. I own
Speaker 1: a couple of die forragm calls and a slate call.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this, do you ever al hoot?
Speaker 1: Not in the turkey situation. Would anything happen in this
Speaker 1: living room where Josh Lunsford without hood? Uh? Yeah, when
Speaker 1: the hogs win, that's it. That's it. He's talking about
Speaker 1: the Arkansas razorbacks. I'm sure you've heard of him. As
Speaker 1: intriguing as the social communication mechanisms of the natural world
Speaker 1: are maybe even more interested in something quite it's strange
Speaker 1: that I've taken note of in Southern culture, and maybe
Speaker 1: it's other places. I can't say for sure, but it's this.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of street cred and social status that
Speaker 1: comes with being a hunter that can make good natural
Speaker 1: voiced calls. Why people that can mimic the hoot of
Speaker 1: a barred owl are usually good woodsman. Let me take
Speaker 1: it a step further, they're usually could turkey hunters. To
Speaker 1: a hunter, this may seem like a no brainer, but
Speaker 1: if you think about it, it's kind of strange. You see,
Speaker 1: A barred owl is a nocturnal avian predator, usually not
Speaker 1: weighing more than five pounds. It makes its living off
Speaker 1: a small rodents. A wild turkey is a large bird
Speaker 1: waring at the thirty pounds that spends the majority of
Speaker 1: its life walking around eating insects, nuts, and green brows
Speaker 1: off the ground. The only things these animals have in
Speaker 1: common is they got a pair of wings and they
Speaker 1: roughly inhabit the same geographic is But I will suggest
Speaker 1: that if you were looking for a sure fire and
Speaker 1: quick way to find a good turkey hunter, you could
Speaker 1: start by asking to hear their owl hoot. M However,
Speaker 1: the water gets really muddy right here, and even more
Speaker 1: complex because this is a dynamic correlation that I'm suggesting,
Speaker 1: because it is possible to be a good turkey hunter
Speaker 1: and not be able to owl hoot. Wait a minute,
Speaker 1: I'm getting confused. You know what we need? We need
Speaker 1: somebody that knows about correlations to explain what this means.
Speaker 1: Dr Malachi Nichols is an economist and he's the director
Speaker 1: of evaluation and data quality for an education focused nonprofit.
Speaker 1: Maybe he can help us sort this out. Dr Nichols,
Speaker 1: I am trying to under d stand correlations because it's
Speaker 1: very clear to me that I make correlations all the time.
Speaker 1: I don't fully understand the mechanisms of them, but I
Speaker 1: find them to be like, really predictable. So help me
Speaker 1: understand the connection that I very clearly see between people
Speaker 1: that can our hoot very well with their mouth and
Speaker 1: their ability to be good woodsman. What what's the connection
Speaker 1: that I'm seeing there? You know, I would I would
Speaker 1: take it one step back and say, as a researcher, like,
Speaker 1: this is a social science question, right, It's just the
Speaker 1: study of human behavior. The statistical tool that we use
Speaker 1: is correlations, and and simply put a correlation, it's just
Speaker 1: quantifying the strength and the direction of a relationship between
Speaker 1: two things. So if a moves, how does be moved?
Speaker 1: So if they're weak correlations and strong correlations, how do
Speaker 1: I tell the difference? And is there a is there
Speaker 1: a terminology that would describe a correlation that that isn't
Speaker 1: a legit correlation? And when I think of one that
Speaker 1: is And I'm thinking about spurits correlations and spurious correlations.
Speaker 1: Are are correlations that appear statistically to be related, but
Speaker 1: if you look at the context, there's no relations. What's
Speaker 1: an example. What's a good example of a spurious correlation?
Speaker 1: So I'm looking I'm thinking about data in the eighties
Speaker 1: and nineties of an increased use of people wearing seatbelts
Speaker 1: was associated or related to a decrease in astronauts dying
Speaker 1: in space right, So statistically it was a true statement,
Speaker 1: but really there was no connection between the two, no
Speaker 1: connection at all. That's the power and also the hardship
Speaker 1: of statistics and data. So in my situation where I'm
Speaker 1: seeing a correlation between a person's ability to out hoot
Speaker 1: or mimic natural sounds and then they're jumping to their
Speaker 1: general overall ability to be an effective hunter, I see
Speaker 1: the strong correlation. Okay, but inside the same situation, you
Speaker 1: don't have to be an ol hooter to be a
Speaker 1: good hunter. What what does that mean? Like if if
Speaker 1: it's there's for sure correlation, but it doesn't always have
Speaker 1: to be. And what you're describing is that it's a
Speaker 1: something that we say in our world is that correlation
Speaker 1: does not equal causation. So just because you can ol
Speaker 1: hoot a turkey call does not mean that that causes
Speaker 1: you to be a good hunter. It doesn't. It's not caused.
Speaker 1: It's just it happens to have a relationship. And so
Speaker 1: therefore you have outliers. Therefore you have people who are
Speaker 1: good hunters that can't turkey call or can't ol hoot,
Speaker 1: And it just says this is a correlation, there's a relationship,
Speaker 1: but there's other factors that cause you to be a
Speaker 1: good hunter. Do we use correlations constantly and don't even
Speaker 1: realize it? Oh yeah, it's association. It's it's again going
Speaker 1: back to the aspect. This is a social science question, right,
Speaker 1: the study of human behavior, and so we're always as
Speaker 1: human beings trying to make connections. It's really like a
Speaker 1: short cut, like if I hear you ol hoot, you
Speaker 1: don't have to tell me your story. I know a
Speaker 1: lot of them, So it's like a it's like a
Speaker 1: social shortcut if there were I want you to guess
Speaker 1: for me. So if I had ten people lined up
Speaker 1: in a line and I went through the line in
Speaker 1: a blind test and had them ol hoot, and then
Speaker 1: I made judgments on their experience and hunting, do you
Speaker 1: have any predictions on how often I would be right?
Speaker 1: Probably of the time, I think, Dr Milka Nichols. Okay,
Speaker 1: last thing here, do you do you know the cadence
Speaker 1: of a bard owl? Who? I have no idea? Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do it for you, and then I want
Speaker 1: to hear you. I want to hear your bart out here. Okay,
Speaker 1: So this is the hoot of a bard owl. Oh there,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a who cooks for you, who books
Speaker 1: for you. All. You may not be in experienced hunt,
Speaker 1: but you're head at that direction. Let me get there therection.
Speaker 1: Now that we've got all that sorted out, I want
Speaker 1: to introduce you to some of the voices in my
Speaker 1: world that all fit the correlation that I've so strongly identified.
Speaker 1: I don't ever remember not knowing Steve Phillips. He's a
Speaker 1: good friend of my dad's and families, and he's always
Speaker 1: had an incredible knack for using his voice to mimic
Speaker 1: animal sounds. The guy is simply gifted, and wouldn't you
Speaker 1: know it, he's a heck of a woodsman too. When
Speaker 1: did you start mouth calling just using your natural voice?
Speaker 1: I started mouth calling using my natural voice probably about
Speaker 1: seventy six or seventy seven. I didn't start turkey hunting
Speaker 1: until the late eighties. But Kathy and I lived out
Speaker 1: across the street from a guy that was like old
Speaker 1: McDonald's farm. I mean, he had every kind of animal,
Speaker 1: and he even had wild turkey, had one gobler, and
Speaker 1: he had like four hens. And so I'd sit out
Speaker 1: on the lawn chair out on the front yard, and
Speaker 1: I'd listened to them hens, and I would listen to
Speaker 1: him and he had gobble, and listen to him. So
Speaker 1: I started practicing mimicking those hens and the calls that
Speaker 1: they would make to make him. God, yeah, I never
Speaker 1: put a diaphragm any kind of slate call. Didn't know
Speaker 1: what they were, didn't turkey hunt. So I just started
Speaker 1: messing around, and so I got to where I could
Speaker 1: walk out on the front yard any morning and call
Speaker 1: and he had gobble. Then in about the late eighties,
Speaker 1: I got asked by a guy who asked me if
Speaker 1: I want to go turkey hunt? And I said, well,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know how he's turkey hunting. What
Speaker 1: do you do? And he's, well, you need to get
Speaker 1: a diaphragm call. And I said, well, I'll go. I
Speaker 1: can call him with my mouth, and he is cured
Speaker 1: me I probably couldn't. So he took before daylight and
Speaker 1: he turned me out and he said that he knew
Speaker 1: there was some turkeys in there, and he actually told
Speaker 1: me what I needed to do. You know, he said,
Speaker 1: pulling on top the mountain, listened to you here one,
Speaker 1: and try to get as close to it as you can.
Speaker 1: And and then make your call. I said, okay. So
Speaker 1: we went got on the mountain, heard the turkey gobble.
Speaker 1: I got in what I thought was rather close, made
Speaker 1: my mouth call. He answered me. I just sit there
Speaker 1: a little bit, and before I knew it, he gobbled
Speaker 1: right below me. I called him again, and here he
Speaker 1: came in. I shot him and killed him. Went back
Speaker 1: to the truck within probably an hour and a half,
Speaker 1: and I thought, you know, there's nothing to this turkey hun.
Speaker 1: Little did I know there was a lot to turkey hunt.
Speaker 1: Andy Brown, who's a good friend of yours. He taught
Speaker 1: me everything I know about turryn He taught me, you
Speaker 1: know what to do, when to do, and so I
Speaker 1: took it to the next level. I practiced all the time,
Speaker 1: learning how to call. Let's hear you calls. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: usually use two different locator calls. Early morning is the alcohol.
Speaker 1: We'll we'll do an alcohol when the first get out,
Speaker 1: right right before daylight, you know, while it's still dark.
Speaker 1: I'll usually get out and all and then you can
Speaker 1: also sometimes darn if you get two or three hours.
Speaker 1: I know you've heard two or three hours come in,
Speaker 1: and that really gets a turkey really fired. Up you can,
Speaker 1: and that will get them really to get them laughing.
Speaker 1: And then later on, you know, in the morning or
Speaker 1: something near in the day, I use a crow call,
Speaker 1: and so I learned how to make a crow call
Speaker 1: with just my mouth, not a crow calls. That sounds good, man,
Speaker 1: I bet you can call a crow in right now,
Speaker 1: we'll probably okay, now, what I know you for? Well,
Speaker 1: I know you're for your crow calling. I'll call them
Speaker 1: hit him again. It's crows lit in the tree about
Speaker 1: fifty shotgun range from us. If you've got a turkey
Speaker 1: choke on, I wish you'd call all right, let me
Speaker 1: hear your your turkey call. Okay, as you will know
Speaker 1: you know, your your regular yelp call. That's what I
Speaker 1: used the most. But when the turkey gets in close,
Speaker 1: you know what do you usually here? When turkeys get
Speaker 1: in if hands are in they're not calling real loud.
Speaker 1: They're doing more of a purring and just talking. And
Speaker 1: I will hit him with and then I'll slow down
Speaker 1: a little bit when they get in closer. And all
Speaker 1: this that sounds really good, sounds really good. Most people
Speaker 1: can't call that good with a diaphragm. Okay, here's here's
Speaker 1: my question for you. Do you see a correlation between
Speaker 1: people that can natural voice call and people that are
Speaker 1: really good woodsman? Yes, I do. Let me tell you this.
Speaker 1: I think there's two kinds of turkey hunters. There's a
Speaker 1: caller and then there's a turkey killer. And I consider
Speaker 1: myself a turkey killer. I'm not the best caller in
Speaker 1: the woods. You've got guys that go to these contests,
Speaker 1: and I mean they're really good. I think personally that
Speaker 1: the call is about maybe, but I think the set
Speaker 1: up in location and how you set up on a
Speaker 1: turkey determines whether you're gonna kill that turkey or not.
Speaker 1: To me, I've always said that somebody that can call
Speaker 1: with her voice has a lot of street cred in
Speaker 1: my book, so you got some street cred, man, show me,
Speaker 1: show me your squirrel bark that's good trying to call
Speaker 1: us crows? And I heard you call while ago there
Speaker 1: was one that's awesome. Do you ever use a OL
Speaker 1: hoot or anything for something other than a functional turkey locator?
Speaker 1: Hunters as group of hunters, as you know, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: we we do use an OL who I can actually
Speaker 1: pick out, like Andy and Wayne and Scott. You know
Speaker 1: your different tones. I can tell when they're who. They
Speaker 1: can tell when I who. You know they learn that sound.
Speaker 1: So if we're ready to get down out of the woods,
Speaker 1: are ready to leave, or if we kill something willow,
Speaker 1: who do you ever do it when you're not hunting?
Speaker 1: You like like, uh, something good happens at that? Like yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: we we get out and you will allow who do
Speaker 1: at the house? When something what? What does it mean
Speaker 1: when Steve phillips ol hoots not in the woods, like
Speaker 1: what what's given an example of something that's happened? Why
Speaker 1: would you alhoot? Usually usually if something good, you know,
Speaker 1: has happened, I might be out in the backyard and
Speaker 1: and uh, one of the kids have done something. I'll
Speaker 1: sometimes I'll throw one out is bad, you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's a celebratory, celebratory. There you go, there you go, exactly.
Speaker 1: It was zero surprise to me when I learned that
Speaker 1: Moe Shepherd had a good owl and crow call. The
Speaker 1: guy is a turkey hunter's turkey hunter. He's been successful
Speaker 1: year after year on some tough public ground, and a
Speaker 1: spring hasn't passed in the last forty five years. When
Speaker 1: he hadn't brought home a spring gobbler. He's got a
Speaker 1: unique technique for prepping his voice to make the hoot
Speaker 1: of a barred owl. Meet most shepherd. So you I
Speaker 1: know you al Who because I've heard you do it before.
Speaker 1: But you also cro called with your voice. Yes, I do.
Speaker 1: I do. I do it a lot with my voice
Speaker 1: because it's so handy and easy and you don't have
Speaker 1: to move or anything. You know, I can be sitting
Speaker 1: there totally still, and if a turkey hadn't goblded in
Speaker 1: a while, but I'm working or something other, I can
Speaker 1: just call with my voice. And you know, I did
Speaker 1: anybody teach you or just I just learned to do
Speaker 1: it on my own. Like I said, when I was
Speaker 1: a kid, I heard all those sounds out in the
Speaker 1: woods and stuff, but I didn't really try. I tried,
Speaker 1: but didn't make much success that. I didn't really learn
Speaker 1: to al who until I was probably turkey hunting, did
Speaker 1: you somebody? Ah? Yes, I had a brother in law
Speaker 1: that that al Who did. He's one that got me
Speaker 1: into turkey hunting and he was good at al hooting. Okay,
Speaker 1: what good voice callers are usually pretty good woodsman and
Speaker 1: pretty good hunters. Okay, walk me through your al hooting process,
Speaker 1: because I know you you kind of have something you do.
Speaker 1: Like I said, I tried it for years when I
Speaker 1: was younger, and then one day I I'd seen somebody
Speaker 1: kind of doing this I was hunting with and the
Speaker 1: best time, Remember he said, you know, he said, you
Speaker 1: gotta get your throat right to make the noise come
Speaker 1: out right. He said, if you don't it, this blurts out.
Speaker 1: So I kind of swallow some air, if that makes
Speaker 1: any sense. I swallow air for three or four gulps
Speaker 1: before I start mouth hoot, and it gets the right
Speaker 1: tone in there. And like I said, I'll you'll probably
Speaker 1: hear this. You should be here a little bit of
Speaker 1: this of me swallowing the air, like I said, I
Speaker 1: talked about very nice. Let me hear your crocs. Tell me.
Speaker 1: I don't know what it's called, but you know, curls
Speaker 1: make a lot of different sounds and lots of different
Speaker 1: serious series. And you know, sometimes Turkey's gobble a long series.
Speaker 1: Sometimes they gobblet short calls, you knowiced short blasts and stuff.
Speaker 1: So you know, it's just whatever mode I'm in or
Speaker 1: what mood I mean, what I've blast out when I did,
Speaker 1: but I can do several different cadences of it. So
Speaker 1: Old Ryan Grab is an all around woodsman, from bears
Speaker 1: to turkeys to catching spring croppy. He's an expert. I've
Speaker 1: actually never turkey hunted with Ryan, but I knew he
Speaker 1: had a good out hoot before I ever heard it.
Speaker 1: Our ability to make hacurate predictions based on correlations is stunning,
Speaker 1: and its streamlines our ability to make judgments. I want
Speaker 1: you to meet Old Ryan flint face Grab. He rarely
Speaker 1: smiles for pictures, so I called flint face. So where
Speaker 1: where did you learn to use your natural voice to call? With?
Speaker 1: Just growing up and probably hearing some older guys in
Speaker 1: high school that I knew that were hunters, you know,
Speaker 1: and they had hunted a few more years than I
Speaker 1: actually had, and heard them doing that al hoots, you know,
Speaker 1: turkey open crow call, and you know stuff I started.
Speaker 1: You just kind of started doing it on your own.
Speaker 1: There was times I would, you know, when I was younger,
Speaker 1: I'd sat outside and just at night by myself from
Speaker 1: the driveway while the family was inside, you know, and
Speaker 1: I just tried to practice. Let me let me hear
Speaker 1: your on a good spring morning to get a turkey
Speaker 1: to god, I'm not very good at Come on, I'm not.
Speaker 1: I'm really not better at crow than I am. Well,
Speaker 1: I want to hear your out and your crow. Oh
Speaker 1: oh crow crow? That sounds good man. So do you
Speaker 1: do you ever use a barred alcohol for anything other
Speaker 1: than hunting? Like like, for instance, would there ever be
Speaker 1: a reason that you would bard alcohol in your house?
Speaker 1: Maybe to aggregate the life sometimes? Or do you ever
Speaker 1: alhoot when you're excited about something as a celebratory of time? What? Okay?
Speaker 1: What would what would have to happen in Ryan Grab's
Speaker 1: life for him to al hoot? Not at a turkey gobble?
Speaker 1: Give me an example, Oh, catch a three pound crappy.
Speaker 1: Benjamin Moore is a New York based voice and speech
Speaker 1: teacher where he coaches Broadway, film and TV actors, as
Speaker 1: well as diplomat scientists and economists at some high salutant
Speaker 1: organizations like the United Nations. Benjamin works for the Link
Speaker 1: Ladder Center for Voice and Language and the City University
Speaker 1: of New York. I've got a feeling that he's got
Speaker 1: some insight into why humans are so good at mimicking
Speaker 1: animal sounds. Benjamin I am trying to understand why humans
Speaker 1: are so dynamic in our ability to mimic. The only
Speaker 1: animal that I can think of off hand that does
Speaker 1: this as a mocking bird. But are there other examples
Speaker 1: in the animal kingdom of animals that can mimic other sounds?
Speaker 1: There are a lot, But as far as mimicking human
Speaker 1: speech goes, the only other animals that really do that consistently.
Speaker 1: There have been some like strain age things about seals,
Speaker 1: and even an elephant one time that learned how to
Speaker 1: say a few words. But but in the animal kingdom,
Speaker 1: it's birds, it's parrots, parakeets. Probably the the king of
Speaker 1: of imitating our speech are parakeets. They can learn as
Speaker 1: many as four hundred words. Let me ask you this, Benjamin,
Speaker 1: if we're so unique in our ability to mimic other animals,
Speaker 1: what is it from an anatomy and physiology perspective that
Speaker 1: allows a human to make so much variation in our voice,
Speaker 1: um our, larynx, and respiratory system is much more sophisticated
Speaker 1: than any of the other species going. We have a
Speaker 1: big range. Most of us in our daily conversation have
Speaker 1: a couple of octaves of range with a little bit
Speaker 1: of training, every one of us can have something more
Speaker 1: than than four octaves, so we have this big range
Speaker 1: from low in the voice to high end the voice.
Speaker 1: And then on top of that, up above vocal cords,
Speaker 1: that tube that comes up from the vocal folds called
Speaker 1: the pharynx. It goes up, goes up behind the mouth,
Speaker 1: goes up through the nose. Uh, there's that obviously comes
Speaker 1: out through the mouth where there's the tongue, that jaw
Speaker 1: on the lips. That whole tube has muscles there that
Speaker 1: not only are good for swallowing food, but also adjust
Speaker 1: the shape of the vibrations as they come up and out.
Speaker 1: All of that has this incredible flexibility. We learn it
Speaker 1: just like the parrots do and the mockingbirds do. We
Speaker 1: learn most of our sounds through imitation and all the
Speaker 1: languages of the world. There's something more than two thousand
Speaker 1: sounds that human beings are able to produce, and every
Speaker 1: one of us that is normally functioning when we're born
Speaker 1: can hear and distinguish all those different sounds. Over a
Speaker 1: period of time, we begin to lose it because it's
Speaker 1: not useful, and the brain begins to streamline itself for
Speaker 1: what is a useful commune occation and what's not? I
Speaker 1: have one final question for it. I know all these
Speaker 1: people that are incredible natural voice callers, why are they
Speaker 1: so good at this? And other people are not. With
Speaker 1: the understanding that all of us are born a little
Speaker 1: bit different. Some vocal cords are longer than the others,
Speaker 1: and the shape of the mouth and stuff is always
Speaker 1: going to be different, the real difference is their interests,
Speaker 1: their passion in the subject um. Almost to everybody can
Speaker 1: develop a huge range in different ways of speaking. We're
Speaker 1: just really flexible that way as a species. And we
Speaker 1: do know that human beings who want to be an
Speaker 1: expert in something, whether it's a professional athlete or an
Speaker 1: artist or a mechanic, what their passion is, and they
Speaker 1: say it takes about ten hours to become an expert
Speaker 1: at something. What their passion is really drives him in
Speaker 1: a couple of different ways. One is that that emotional
Speaker 1: framework allows us to marry our intellect with our physical
Speaker 1: skill sets, so that the skill sets just aren't something
Speaker 1: that the body is doing. There's a real understanding that comes.
Speaker 1: But also with that passion comes an ability to perceive
Speaker 1: and really focus in on the details of a situation.
Speaker 1: Like for these natural callers, they are hearing that turkey
Speaker 1: in a way that even when I would go out
Speaker 1: and try to hunt, I was like, I never I
Speaker 1: know for sure I'm not hearing a turkey the way
Speaker 1: Preston is, for instance, and how attuned he is with
Speaker 1: his ears is like a symphony conductor. So, Benjamin, are
Speaker 1: you familiar with the hoot of a bard owl? I am. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna hoot like a bard owl. Okay, I want
Speaker 1: you to tell me what I could do better if
Speaker 1: you can just in one who here, here's my ol hood.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna step back just a little bit, all right,
Speaker 1: give it a go. Oh okay, that's my wow. That's great.
Speaker 1: Once you go up into that high part, the tongue
Speaker 1: is gonna want to come up, but you're gonna want
Speaker 1: to try to leave that down so that it's more
Speaker 1: resonant coming up through through the front part of your face.
Speaker 1: So try to keep my tongue down, so you're going
Speaker 1: to keep the back that's closer. Yeah, I pushed my
Speaker 1: tongue down. I'm I have to say, I'm impressed going.
Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting that. That is great. Preston Pittman isn't normal.
Speaker 1: He's one of the best natural voice callers on the
Speaker 1: continent and certainly the most decorated. After meeting him, it's
Speaker 1: clear he must have been raised in a clutch of
Speaker 1: wild turkeys. Anthropomorphism is when we assign animals human like traits.
Speaker 1: Zoo morphism is when we assign a human animal like traits.
Speaker 1: Preston has been zoo morphies, or maybe he's just a
Speaker 1: darned good Mississippi turkey hunter and woodsman. Preston became the
Speaker 1: Mississippi State turkey calling champion when he was sixteen years old.
Speaker 1: Today he's sixties seven years old. He won that first
Speaker 1: calling contest with his natural voice. Since that time, he's
Speaker 1: won the World Turkey Calling Contest, the World Natural Voice
Speaker 1: Turkey Calling Contest, the World Gobbling Turkey Calling Contest, and
Speaker 1: he was the World Champion Natural Voice al Hooter. He
Speaker 1: is the only person to hold five different world titles.
Speaker 1: He was on The David Letterman Show three times and
Speaker 1: The Tonight Show with Jay Lenno colling turkeys. But of
Speaker 1: more note than all these accolades, Preston is probably as
Speaker 1: good a turkey hunter as has ever drawn a breath
Speaker 1: of air. Here's the clip of Preston in his prime.
Speaker 1: I ain't gonna tell that called to you. It's not
Speaker 1: for sale or no man money. That's my natural voice.
Speaker 1: I'm Preston Pittman. I've been blessed that I've held the
Speaker 1: world championship several times, the World Natural Voice Calling Championship.
Speaker 1: But let's tell you what. There is nothing in this
Speaker 1: world that sounds is good? Is natural voice calling? Does
Speaker 1: suppressing tell me about when you first started using your
Speaker 1: natural voice for calling? Well, they pick on me a
Speaker 1: little bit. Say uh that when I was hatched on
Speaker 1: November of nineteen fifty three, that when I popped out
Speaker 1: of my mama and the baby doctor grabbed me by
Speaker 1: my hind leg and spanked me on the rear end
Speaker 1: instead of crying, is what come out of my mouth.
Speaker 1: But in all seriousness, me and from a family that
Speaker 1: always hunted and always fish, I guess I couldn't help
Speaker 1: but hunt. And my dad was not a turkey hunter.
Speaker 1: He was a big dog person. Back whenever we hit
Speaker 1: quail here in the South um and run deer with dogs,
Speaker 1: and we did things together. And they used to have
Speaker 1: an old timy day and a little town by the
Speaker 1: name of Carthridge, Mississippi. And at that Fourth of July,
Speaker 1: which when it was celebration of our great country, they
Speaker 1: had a turkey calling contest, a duck colin kind tests
Speaker 1: and acts throwing contests, and they had the Mississippi State
Speaker 1: UH duck collin the Mississippi State UH Championship in turkey collin.
Speaker 1: Back when I was about twelve, I met a general
Speaker 1: m the name of Jack Dudley, who at that point
Speaker 1: in time was the Mississippi State champion wild turkey caller,
Speaker 1: and um, he was good enough just on that day
Speaker 1: to start working with me, kind of tell me what
Speaker 1: to do and how to stretch my local cords, and
Speaker 1: I'll be dead gun. At the end of the day,
Speaker 1: I was. I was making a somewhat of a turkey sound,
Speaker 1: and uh. Kind of the rest of the story is
Speaker 1: I had won the fishing rodeo for kids, and I
Speaker 1: was a year two old, so I had already been
Speaker 1: awarded the plaque, and uh, I had to get the
Speaker 1: black back and that was okay, I understood. Well, I
Speaker 1: just kind of made myself as I I said, one
Speaker 1: day and I'm gonna come back and with me a trophy.
Speaker 1: He up here between something, I'm gonna be able to
Speaker 1: do it. But Mr Dudley would go to some of
Speaker 1: the sportsman's clubs and do a little short seminars. He
Speaker 1: the forty five rpm record that I memorized, you know,
Speaker 1: word for work, and it was on Turkey Column. It
Speaker 1: was on Turkey column. Really are there any of those
Speaker 1: left today? And you know, I know what there was
Speaker 1: one I met in your house. Uh huh and for
Speaker 1: salf uh. And at one point in time, I could
Speaker 1: literally quoted my Hello, my name is Jack Dudley, and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna teach you how to turkey call. The first
Speaker 1: call that I'm gonna teach you is gonna be a
Speaker 1: maiden coll. And this is the way you do a
Speaker 1: maiden coll. You know, three us and two cluck. But
Speaker 1: kind of making a long story short, At sixteen years old,
Speaker 1: I went back to that same contest and I won.
Speaker 1: And we didn't have youth editions back then, you know,
Speaker 1: it was a calling contest and very few of those.
Speaker 1: And I want the Misssippi State championship perkey collar. And
Speaker 1: from there it just went on and I own and
Speaker 1: I own, and I on and on Preston, act like
Speaker 1: I've never turkey hunted, and give me a good look
Speaker 1: into the vocalizations of the wild turkey. And again this
Speaker 1: is all just with your natural voice. Okay, well it's
Speaker 1: sixties seven years old. I have stretched my my layers
Speaker 1: next my vocal cords so much till it's like a
Speaker 1: rubber band that you laid up on the dashboard as
Speaker 1: the truck. I can barely up a little bit, cluck
Speaker 1: a little bit, per a little bit, and sometimes gobble.
Speaker 1: So the quality is not there too many people, especially,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say it, since podcast and Facebook and
Speaker 1: YouTube and all that junk, they won't learn how to
Speaker 1: kick you run, cackles, lying down on excited hand, the apps, cutting, YadA, YadA, YadA, YadA, yadda. No. No,
Speaker 1: As a beginner, you need to learn one sound and
Speaker 1: one sound only until you can do it exactly the
Speaker 1: way that you want to do it every time. And
Speaker 1: that is the basic hen yep. I will use a
Speaker 1: human analogy with to you. I can take one word
Speaker 1: and have three very total different meanings. I can go hey,
Speaker 1: or I can go hi. All right, I can go
Speaker 1: he and you can do that all basically with a yelp.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of like building a house. Build that
Speaker 1: foundation solid, then start adding a call. Then go back
Speaker 1: and do your foundation. It's calm, it's cool, is collective,
Speaker 1: is peaceful, it's tranquility. Come on in, big boy, I
Speaker 1: want to date you. Okay, there can be that's more
Speaker 1: of I'm reaching out. I won't company. Where are you
Speaker 1: an assembly? Call's bring our fault either way. Are speeding
Speaker 1: it up, speeding the rhythm up? Are acting more excited
Speaker 1: day in day out, especially on southern birds. Then I
Speaker 1: don't want unless I know the particular bird or I'm
Speaker 1: just trying to locate one. I will always revert back
Speaker 1: to softer, calmer calling. Let me ask you a question.
Speaker 1: So you you are a natural voice caller, and you're
Speaker 1: also you also do incredible diaphragm calls and all kinds
Speaker 1: of the calls. But I'm interested in your natural voice stuff,
Speaker 1: and I understanding how much of that was practice, how
Speaker 1: much of it was natural? Okay? Even Mr Dudley looked
Speaker 1: at me as his son. He says, you're natural. He said,
Speaker 1: everybody can't do this crap. I'm in hell in there,
Speaker 1: I'm sucking in, which gives you more rasp to our now,
Speaker 1: and it's not like what it used to be. But
Speaker 1: it's almost like me saying the word. I'll get your
Speaker 1: tone working. Describe what's happening in your mouth when you
Speaker 1: make that gobble. I'm sucking air in and I'm mimicking
Speaker 1: the word. Then I get my tongue to flopping up
Speaker 1: and down, and I will use my cheeks, watch my cheeks.
Speaker 1: I'm bringing it in and I'm bringing my my my
Speaker 1: my mouth in to get the tail off of the gobble.
Speaker 1: But anybody and everybody can at least what I call
Speaker 1: squeak something out like they can get a because that's
Speaker 1: all I'm doing now. I mean I've lost it, but yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean you can hear the word out in there.
Speaker 1: I'll take it out. But I'm over exaggerate. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: can get a little something. And let me tell you this.
Speaker 1: Take a group of a hundred turkey hunters anywhere in
Speaker 1: the United stuf eates. I'll bet you there aren't over
Speaker 1: two to five people that can do anything with their
Speaker 1: natural voice. It's something he has not heard. He is
Speaker 1: not used to it. A natural voice collar. As far
Speaker 1: as harvesting a bird, a natural voice collar and or
Speaker 1: either a trumpet our wingbone user will kill some of
Speaker 1: those that you walk up to the limb and you
Speaker 1: hang his spurs upon her. Any swings back and forth.
Speaker 1: And you think natural voice calling gives you an advantage
Speaker 1: in hunting with fan buttser doubts. I mean, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: basically I use a little bit of everything now, but
Speaker 1: my my go to collars a diaphragm, that's first, okay,
Speaker 1: but there's a lot of times I'm blowing a diaphragm,
Speaker 1: and just to mix it in, I'm liable to throw
Speaker 1: my voice to make it sound like another hen coming
Speaker 1: in and add that little more realism into it. You
Speaker 1: you told me about adding realism to your calling, said,
Speaker 1: and how you would used to bark like a squirrel
Speaker 1: or you would crow like so you're calling the turkey,
Speaker 1: so there's a gobbler here and you're kendy up and
Speaker 1: but then you might bark like a squirrel. Let me
Speaker 1: tell you what I'm doing it spending and I'm I
Speaker 1: basically kind of kenning in on tough turkeys. Now, okay,
Speaker 1: hard bird birds that's call shy birds has been missed
Speaker 1: with birds are in that four and older your range bracket.
Speaker 1: But I heard everything. Okay. Then they had to the
Speaker 1: kitchen sink drawn at him. Well I'm fitching. Now throw
Speaker 1: the kitchen sink, the como, the basktub, hecked front door
Speaker 1: at him. I tried to paint a picture and buy
Speaker 1: that for y'all turkey hunters out there. What happens whenever
Speaker 1: a crow gets on birds, he starts raising king right
Speaker 1: and looking at the turkey, right at the turkey. How
Speaker 1: many times have you been sitting in the woods and
Speaker 1: have like a little thicket or a blowdown or is
Speaker 1: in between you and your bird? The bird shuts up.
Speaker 1: Five minutes is gone by, Nothing has happened. Ten minutes
Speaker 1: is gone by, nothing has happened. You hadn't heard anything,
Speaker 1: But you didn't notice that little thrush that come flying
Speaker 1: out of that thicket? What made it come flying out?
Speaker 1: And then twelve fourteen minutes later, fifteen minutes later, all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, Oh my god, where'd he come from? There?
Speaker 1: He is in full struck. He's been there the whole time.
Speaker 1: So as I tell people, I see with my ears,
Speaker 1: because I see more with my ears than I do
Speaker 1: with my eyes. It's paying attention to the squirrel barking,
Speaker 1: we'll do something moving through the woods, and if you
Speaker 1: will pay attention as to what's going on in mother nature,
Speaker 1: you will automatically step up. Now if you can add
Speaker 1: some of those sounds, like when we used to have
Speaker 1: Bob White quail, that was one of my favorite things
Speaker 1: to do, was to sit there and see if I
Speaker 1: can still do it. I would mix that in with
Speaker 1: my calling quiller trying to get back together, or throw
Speaker 1: a Bob White at it. You know, the Bob White
Speaker 1: whistle mixing in with your turk, mixing in with your
Speaker 1: turkey callings. That means there's other wildlife there at ease.
Speaker 1: So he's gonna think, well, there's quail over there that
Speaker 1: I could learn a redbird. I want to learn a
Speaker 1: redbird so bad it was pathetic. I want to go
Speaker 1: a little bit deeper with you to the kind of
Speaker 1: the thing behind the thing in In Southern culture, it
Speaker 1: means something to be able to call with your natural voice.
Speaker 1: What would if if a guy walked into this camp
Speaker 1: right now and he could al call like a barred owl,
Speaker 1: he could gobble like a turkey with his mouth, what
Speaker 1: would what would that say to you about his woodsmanship,
Speaker 1: his hunting prowess. I can answer that very simply, very shortly.
Speaker 1: I don't want you on my land because that tells
Speaker 1: me that is a person who is dedicated, especially if
Speaker 1: they could do a full range of calls. That tells
Speaker 1: me that that individual is either one a kid or
Speaker 1: that is a seasoned outdoorsman. Like I said, stay all
Speaker 1: my land. I don't want somebody like that in there.
Speaker 1: So the bard owl in Mississippi culture, Yes, where would
Speaker 1: Preston Pittman al hoot? Not in a turkey hunting situation?
Speaker 1: Give me an example of why you would al hoot
Speaker 1: in your life. Oh, I'm telling you that real quick.
Speaker 1: Instead of hooping, hollering, whatever it may be. I think
Speaker 1: probably every contest that I ever won, I did something
Speaker 1: like this right here, and then I gotta lie. Uh
Speaker 1: you let me get in a football game, which I
Speaker 1: don't go to a whole bunch of because I'm in
Speaker 1: the wood hunting. Then uh, I can do that single note,
Speaker 1: you know, like that who I instead hollering and screaming
Speaker 1: and it's it's it's it's my happy holler. And what
Speaker 1: it breaks down to, you know, I'm happy or I'm
Speaker 1: rooting for somebody. Why do you think we do that?
Speaker 1: Because it's a Southern thing. I mean, you gotta eat grits,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I don't need no oatmeal
Speaker 1: or cream a wheat junk. It's a grit thing, is
Speaker 1: what it is. It's just it's a Southern thing. Press
Speaker 1: that I'm I think for a Southern Okay, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: I'm gonna set you up for something. To judge me. Okay,
Speaker 1: my my assessment of myself. I think I am a
Speaker 1: average Southern al hooter. Can you want me to judge
Speaker 1: you being in a contest or do you want me
Speaker 1: to judge you as a hunter? Judge me as a
Speaker 1: hunter and then give me the critique of of a
Speaker 1: of a contest. But I want I'm gonna al hoot
Speaker 1: and I want you to give me just your honest assessment,
Speaker 1: and I want you to coach me because let me
Speaker 1: tell you something, I take a lot of pride in
Speaker 1: my al hooting and I use it all the time.
Speaker 1: I mean I I use it. I want the truth. Man.
Speaker 1: Oh that's my sequence. You are a very effective al hooter,
Speaker 1: probably a little better than average from a competitive standpoint.
Speaker 1: Get off stage, Okay, you ain't gonna hold a candle. Okay,
Speaker 1: that's being reliance with you and also too so I
Speaker 1: had to coach you right now from a hunting purely perspective. Yes,
Speaker 1: there are so many times when you go into all
Speaker 1: the different notes that an owl makes, he's doing gobbled
Speaker 1: once or twice, and you ain't hurt him. There he
Speaker 1: goes You needed short like or even just the who
Speaker 1: I Preston, You've made a lifestyle a career, and you've
Speaker 1: dedicated yourself and your personal passion towards not just turkey hunting,
Speaker 1: but turkey calling. What does turkey hunting mean to Presston Pittman?
Speaker 1: It's my life. I don't know any other real way
Speaker 1: to to to to put it, but it is. Uh,
Speaker 1: It's a gift that God Almighty gave me, who blessed
Speaker 1: a barely high skeool educated person that dreamed of being
Speaker 1: a game board and so I could be out and
Speaker 1: outdoors all the time, which, oh Lord God is it's
Speaker 1: giving me a dream come true. It's basically what it has.
Speaker 1: And at sixty seven I have not lost that passion.
Speaker 1: Have you? Have you ever thought about why? I mean,
Speaker 1: like you think about a human and what we're here
Speaker 1: on earth to do? Why we're here? Why is turning
Speaker 1: so special to you? Remember this. I enjoy all of
Speaker 1: the outdoors, but there's something about that time of year.
Speaker 1: It's about sitting there and seeing the beautiful dog woods
Speaker 1: come into full balloon. It's about the first buttercups, you know,
Speaker 1: start to pop up. It's about seeing life come back
Speaker 1: to the dead woods again. It's about being mesmerized by
Speaker 1: a spider. Is something about that time of year. It's
Speaker 1: like everything's gonna be okay, the winner's over with, it's
Speaker 1: not cold, and there's life in everything again. You know what?
Speaker 1: I what I hear when I hear you talk like
Speaker 1: this and describe nature in these ways because I hear
Speaker 1: somebody that's really paying attention, and it's perceptive and aware
Speaker 1: and cognizance of detail. And I think that as hunters,
Speaker 1: we're we're in a situation where we are trying to
Speaker 1: fool a part of nature, and so we're having to
Speaker 1: embed ourselves inside of a system that we're usually not in.
Speaker 1: You're paying attention to all this stuff, and I think
Speaker 1: that's a quality that is lost inside of much of
Speaker 1: modern society because technology different things, moder the modern world
Speaker 1: has taken away our need for that type of awareness.
Speaker 1: And so just as I hear you describe that, I
Speaker 1: take it as a personal challenge to be more aware
Speaker 1: and be more in tune with what's going on around
Speaker 1: because that just provides this rich palate for what I
Speaker 1: see inside of you as a man that's passionate, loves
Speaker 1: what he's doing, appreciative with what he's doing, and that
Speaker 1: doesn't come by accident. That's real, intentional. No humans. Ability
Speaker 1: to mimic the wide array of animal sounds is a
Speaker 1: special part of human uniqueness, and it's embedded itself into
Speaker 1: our culture. In the South especially, there is cultural value
Speaker 1: placed on realism and even higher social status assigned to
Speaker 1: the people who are proficient at it. A good our
Speaker 1: hoot is a reflection of confidence, practice, and natural talent,
Speaker 1: and carries with it a strong correlation of being a
Speaker 1: proficient woodsman. It's really unique when you think about it,
Speaker 1: but we have incorporated, or maybe even hijacked, the language
Speaker 1: of the barred owl to communicate with other humans a
Speaker 1: very high level of meaning. That nine notes sequence would
Speaker 1: take a whole lot of human words to describe what
Speaker 1: it means. I wonder where else in our lives we
Speaker 1: do this. Humans are constantly looking for shortcuts and communication
Speaker 1: to tell others who we are. Much of the time,
Speaker 1: these messages are calling card for deeper human relationships. Even
Speaker 1: an owl hoop, these social science questions are highly interesting
Speaker 1: to me, and they make me more aware of myself
Speaker 1: and why I do what I do. When I hear
Speaker 1: somebody ol hoot, I feel a deep connection to them,
Speaker 1: and I suspect, but that's an ancient social mechanism and
Speaker 1: I like it. Oh oh oh, I love it.