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Speaker 1: Pushkin Hi, Bad Women Listeners is Alice here. One of

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Speaker 1: the great joys of working on this show, aside from

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Speaker 1: researching and writing about the lives of the women, has

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Speaker 1: been finding out about nightlife in nineteen forties London. We've

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Speaker 1: worked with contemporary musicians to help bring the bars and

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Speaker 1: clubs of Soho and Piccadilly to life. Our sound designer,

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Speaker 1: Pascal Wise and one of those musicians, Ed Gokan, were

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Speaker 1: recently invited onto the Pushkin podcast Broken Record to talk

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Speaker 1: about their work. We thought you might want to hear

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Speaker 1: that conversation and some of the tracks played in full.

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Speaker 1: It's a great listen enjoy.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, Justin Pascal here, who's the composer, sound designer.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Ed, So I kind of got the band

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Speaker 3: together for the Bad Women's session. So yeah, Pascal is

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Speaker 3: playing trombone, Ed's blowing guitar. I'm now talking about myself

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Speaker 3: in the third person.

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Speaker 4: James Brown, thanks so much for doing this. Guys, appreciate it.

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Speaker 5: Not all Patca.

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Speaker 4: Maybe you want to talk a little bit about Bad

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Speaker 4: Women for sure.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well.

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Speaker 2: Bad Women is the second season of a podcast which

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Speaker 2: began explaining and understanding the lives of Jack the Ripper's victims,

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Speaker 2: and it was very much a refocusing of that story.

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Speaker 4: I mean, that's a story that's now what over a

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Speaker 4: century old, but even in my youth terrified me. And

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Speaker 4: I was a continent away and you know whatever, eighty

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Speaker 4: to one hundred years removed at that point. But infamous

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Speaker 4: serial killer, yeah, who stocked London streets and took women

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Speaker 4: of the night as victims.

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Speaker 2: Right, Well, that original series was really alongside an incredible

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Speaker 2: book called The Five written by the presenter of the

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Speaker 2: show Bad Women, Halle Ribinhold, And this book completely refocuses

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Speaker 2: this story of Jack the Ripper. It rests that obsessive

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Speaker 2: attention on the killer himself, which of course has created

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Speaker 2: this this incredible how can I put it, you know,

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Speaker 2: as a boogeyman story that people endlessly pick over and

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Speaker 2: get very obsessed with the idea of who he might

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Speaker 2: have been and all the rest of it. And what

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Speaker 2: happens is that the victims who had interesting lives are

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Speaker 2: just completely overlooked. And it's become a sort of comfortable

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Speaker 2: way to kind of write off some of the victims

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Speaker 2: of saying, you know, well, you know, they were sex workers.

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Speaker 2: And there's almost a hidden kind of wink there saying,

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Speaker 2: you know, there there were somehow morally, you know, we

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Speaker 2: could abandon them, but actually they had really interesting lives.

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Speaker 2: And what Hally really wanted to do with the book

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Speaker 2: and then with the podcast that came after it is

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Speaker 2: just rebalance that whole tale. Let's look at the women,

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Speaker 2: Let's look at the amazing and interesting lives, what they

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Speaker 2: had to deal with, and let's stop obsessing with the

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Speaker 2: idea of, you know, Jack the Ripper and who we

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Speaker 2: may or may not have been. And of course, one

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Speaker 2: of the most in some ways shocking revelations that you

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Speaker 2: get when you dig into the story in those terms

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Speaker 2: is that central piece of information that almost everyone carries

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Speaker 2: around about Jack the rippert i e. That his victims

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Speaker 2: of prostitutes turns out to be completely untrue.

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Speaker 5: They weren't.

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Speaker 2: That's the sort of setup in Bad Women's Season one,

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Speaker 2: and in season two there's some DNA from that that

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Speaker 2: gets carried forward. We are talking about a killer, and

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Speaker 2: we're talking about a killer of women, but we're moved

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Speaker 2: now to Blitz era London, and the killer is an

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Speaker 2: RAF officer, and again the focus is very firmly on

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Speaker 2: who were the women, What were their lives like and

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Speaker 2: what was it like, you know, existing as a woman

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Speaker 2: in those times. You know, you're helping with the war

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Speaker 2: effort and you know, very difficult for people to imagine

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Speaker 2: or conceive of our heroes, you know, doing anything so grotesque.

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Speaker 2: So again we've ported from Victorian London through to blitzerra

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Speaker 2: London and we're dodging in and out of clubs in

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Speaker 2: soho and hence the more jazz themes that come up

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Speaker 2: in the show.

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Speaker 4: Right, So season two were in World War two era

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Speaker 4: London and a Royal Air Force officers the Killer, and

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Speaker 4: of course the theme that continues on from season one

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Speaker 4: is refocusing the framing of the story from the killer

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Speaker 4: to the women who had their lives taken from them,

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Speaker 4: exactly giving them something better, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and understanding you know, the times they lived in

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Speaker 2: and the particular pressures, because you know, all of that

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Speaker 2: gets lost when you spend your time obsessing over forensic

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Speaker 2: or otherwise details of you know, who, say, Jack the

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Speaker 2: Ripper was, whatever. You know, this stuff just gets lost,

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Speaker 2: it gets swept away, and so in many ways it's

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Speaker 2: it's much more interesting because it gives you a really

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Speaker 2: interesting snapshot of how lives were at the time and

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Speaker 2: the journeys people made, particularly women in this case. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's a very useful refocusing, I think.

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Speaker 4: So that's sort of what you guys are tasked with soundtrack,

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Speaker 4: which is an interesting I don't know, that's an interesting opportunity,

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Speaker 4: interesting proposition. What was the first thing you did when

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Speaker 4: you realized you were going to be making music for

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Speaker 4: this new season.

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Speaker 2: Whenever I start a project like this, I have this

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Speaker 2: romantic idea of taking long walks and planning and really

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Speaker 2: kind of devising my strategy and sort of coming up

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Speaker 2: with a grand concept, and then inevitably what actually happens

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Speaker 2: is life catches up with you and you just crash

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Speaker 2: in there and you get on with it. I'm a

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Speaker 2: great believer in dumping myself into the middle of it

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Speaker 2: and fighting my way.

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Speaker 5: Out, you know.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: With Bad Women in this season two in particular, there's

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Speaker 2: quite a strong sense of place, I mean, in the

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Speaker 2: lucky position of also looking after the sound design on

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Speaker 2: the show, and that's really interesting and it's one of

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Speaker 2: the things that's afforded to a degree by podcasting. There's

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Speaker 2: a certain flexibility, you know, the the work patterns are

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Speaker 2: not so ironed out perhaps as they are in other industries,

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Speaker 2: so there isn't a sort of separate sound design department.

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Speaker 2: I am that as well, So it really means that

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Speaker 2: I can think about the sound design and the music

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Speaker 2: as a as a whole. I can get things to

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Speaker 2: sort of talk to each other.

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Speaker 5: Actually, what I really.

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Speaker 2: Started to think about first was what's London going to

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Speaker 2: sound like at this time? And didn't want to throw

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Speaker 2: away the DNA of the music from the first season,

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Speaker 2: you know, we wanted that sense of kind of linearity

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Speaker 2: of keeping some of the tonal work, you know, from

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Speaker 2: the first show and bringing that forward. So it really

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Speaker 2: about trying to understand the kind of fabric of sound

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Speaker 2: that sort of Soho and some of the places that

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Speaker 2: we're diving in and out of in the show would

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Speaker 2: have created. So actually, I think my first port of

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Speaker 2: call was to start with some sound design elements. You know,

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Speaker 2: let's get the place alive. What do these clubs sound like?

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Speaker 2: And it throws up a really interesting conundrum really, because

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Speaker 2: you know, a restaurant in nineteen forty two wouldn't necessarily

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Speaker 2: sound a whole lot different to how a restaurant would

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Speaker 2: sound now. But how do you somehow triggering people that

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Speaker 2: the concept that they're being taken back in time. And

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Speaker 2: in that sense, I think it's really interesting that one

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Speaker 2: of the best ways to kind of fool people in

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Speaker 2: that environment is to try and make the sounds almost

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Speaker 2: appear to have been recorded back then, so slightly degrading them,

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Speaker 2: giving that sense of that vintage sense, and I think

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Speaker 2: it's really it helps people be tricked back into that time.

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Speaker 2: But going to the sort of music side of it,

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Speaker 2: it became quite clear quite early on, when you know,

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Speaker 2: looking at the scenes where we in these bars and

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Speaker 2: clubs of Soho of the time, that jazz was going

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Speaker 2: to form a part of this the music they would

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Speaker 2: be listening to down in these clubs, the jazz scene

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Speaker 2: of the time, which you know, ed we'll speak more about.

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Speaker 2: But in an environment where you're working, as we say,

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Speaker 2: sort of in the business yet in the box, looking

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Speaker 2: standing at a computer or sitting at a computer and

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Speaker 2: devising this sound using a lot of virtual instruments and

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Speaker 2: electronic instruments, it quickly became apparent to me that you know,

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Speaker 2: we really needed something real and human and alive, and

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Speaker 2: with all the cracks and the fractures and the mistakes

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Speaker 2: and the looseness and the vibe that that would have.

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Speaker 2: And that's when we cooked up the idea that if

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Speaker 2: we could manage this, can we record some tracks that

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Speaker 2: would have been relevant to the era and try and

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Speaker 2: thread that through the show. And I'm so glad we

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Speaker 2: did it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the music turned out great.

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Speaker 6: Ed.

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Speaker 4: Can you tell me a little bit about the jazz

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Speaker 4: clubs of World War two era London?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so it was, you know, an interesting time nineteen

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Speaker 3: forty two. One of the big bangs, if you like,

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Speaker 3: in European jazz was the Django rein Art Hot Club

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Speaker 3: of France thing. You know, him and Stefan Gripelli and

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Speaker 3: all those amazing kind of gypsy players that were part

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Speaker 3: of that scene.

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Speaker 4: Play a bit of what the Jengle Ryan Hart sound is.

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Speaker 5: He's got a huge guitar.

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Speaker 4: Is that not what Jingle would have used?

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Speaker 3: Django played an acoustic guitar and Macaferry acoustic guitar, which

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Speaker 3: we did play on the sessions as well, myself and

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Speaker 3: Christian the other guitar player. We're playing them on the sessions.

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Speaker 3: But I can sort of have a go on this

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Speaker 3: big arch top. So basically in the Hot Club of

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Speaker 3: France traditional setup you have in Django's original model, you'd

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Speaker 3: have two rhythm guitar players who'd be doing this sort

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Speaker 3: of thing, and then you'd have you know, melovy stuff

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Speaker 3: going on on top, and that was a huge thing

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Speaker 3: in Django was arguably the first kind of European jazz stars,

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Speaker 3: do you know what I mean? Obviously the music is

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Speaker 3: American and mostly African American and always led by America,

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Speaker 3: and Jango rhinoch was the first European really to make

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Speaker 3: a kind of any kind of impact on the world

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Speaker 3: of jazz, and he was huge in the UK. The

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Speaker 3: Hot Club of France toured a lot in the UK,

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Speaker 3: and actually at the outbreak of the war, I believe

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Speaker 3: they were over here and Django and the rest of

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Speaker 3: the band, his brother and his cousins there are them

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Speaker 3: guitar players. They all fled back to France and Stefan

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Speaker 3: Gripelli got stuck in London, so he was in London

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Speaker 3: for the duration.

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Speaker 6: Of the war.

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Speaker 3: And then of course in America in the early nineteen

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Speaker 3: forties you had the beginnings of the bebop Revolution. Charlie

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Speaker 3: Parker and Dizzy Gillespian all those people, which was the

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Speaker 3: next sort of big seismic shift in that music. It

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Speaker 3: didn't come as quickly to the UK because there wasn't

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Speaker 3: you know, like now obviously we have so many channels

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Speaker 3: to access music and internet and whatever. And in the

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Speaker 3: early days of that music, it was American serviceman who

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Speaker 3: would bring in bebop records over to the UK, and

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Speaker 3: so you would have heard records in London clubs and

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Speaker 3: I'm sure there would have been people that were kind

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Speaker 3: of playing bebop, but late thirties early forties in the

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Speaker 3: UK would have still been much more rooted in the

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Speaker 3: swing swing era, which is you know, again that kind

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Speaker 3: of four to the.

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Speaker 4: Bar jingle kind of sling style.

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Speaker 3: And then you know or do I've got rhythm? You know,

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Speaker 3: whereas in America in the bebop thing, that was starting

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Speaker 3: to become more harmonically complicated and so you'd get more so,

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Speaker 3: you know, the music was changing very fast in America

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Speaker 3: and in Britain, I think, you know, there was a

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Speaker 3: slower adopting of the more advanced harmonic and rhythmic and

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Speaker 3: melodic concepts that were went out of the bebop thing.

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Speaker 4: Right with bebop there trying to really deconstruct the chords

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Speaker 4: in an interesting way, and swing would have just been

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Speaker 4: let me take this grocerman song I've got with them

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Speaker 4: and make it rhythmically interesting. I guess I would say.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. And also you know, adding extra chords to it,

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Speaker 3: extending the harmony, which was a big part of the

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Speaker 3: bbop thing. And yeah, but you know there were people.

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Speaker 3: There was a boss player called Coleridge Good who was

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Speaker 3: from the West Indies who came to Scotland. Actually first

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Speaker 3: came to Glasgow in the thirties, so this is before

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Speaker 3: the wind Rush, which was the big emigration into the

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Speaker 3: UK of Caribbean people in the fifties. So Coleridge came

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Speaker 3: to Scotland in the early thirties to study engineering and

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Speaker 3: he was a bass player on the scene in Soho

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Speaker 3: at that time, early forties, and he wrote a brilliant

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Speaker 3: book called Basslines about his life as a jazz musician

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Speaker 3: in the UK. Yeah, he was certainly playing kind of

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Speaker 3: swing and bop and what then would have been popular music,

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Speaker 3: you know, because the swing that was the thing with

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Speaker 3: swing era stuff, it was the pop music of its day.

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Speaker 3: It was the hip parade music of its day, people

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Speaker 3: like Benny Goodman and those guys were Glenn Miller, you know,

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Speaker 3: they were the kind of pop stars of their time.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I think London at that time there had

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Speaker 3: been a lot of different influences going on, the start

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Speaker 3: of the Caribbean influence, the start of bebop, the swing

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Speaker 3: big bands people like Ellington had toured in Britain from

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Speaker 3: kind of the twenties onwards. So yeah, I think London

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Speaker 3: was a you know, probably quite an exciting, exciting place

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Speaker 3: to be as a musician in the early forties.

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Speaker 5: What about the electric guitar when was that?

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Speaker 3: I mean, Charlie Christian was the first big kind of

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Speaker 3: electric guitar star who was one of.

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Speaker 4: The thirties, forties, forties.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Christian died in I think forty two. Was really young.

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Speaker 3: He was like twenty five or something. He played in

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Speaker 3: Benny Goodman's small band, and he was arguably the first

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Speaker 3: kind of proper bebop guitarist. And there's a bunch of

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Speaker 3: bootlegs of him playing at Minton's, which was the kind

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Speaker 3: of hothouse laboratory of the bebop era. All the musicians

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Speaker 3: when they finished the gigs at the Savoy and places,

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Speaker 3: would head to Minton's to Minton's Playhouse and play after

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Speaker 3: hours and like Filonious Monk was the house piano player

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Speaker 3: there and Joe Guy would turn up on trumpet And

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Speaker 3: there's these amazing bootleg recordings. It was some guy who

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Speaker 3: was like an audio enthusiast, brought in a i think

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Speaker 3: some sort of hate track, a real to real thing,

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Speaker 3: and just stuck it on a table and there's this

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Speaker 3: incredible record. You've heard that, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're so brilliant,

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Speaker 3: And it's Charlie Christian really sort of ripping it up

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Speaker 3: on standards, things like Topsy and honeysocker Rows and stuff

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Speaker 3: like that, and him just really going to town on

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Speaker 3: it and kind of extending the the jazz vocabulary. And

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Speaker 3: there's a chinkle swing to bot which is based on Topsy,

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Speaker 3: which is an old standard. And yeah, and you can

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Speaker 3: just you can hear him kind of rewriting the rule

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Speaker 3: book as he's playing. It's absolutely amazing.

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Speaker 4: That's great. So how did you guys go about picking

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Speaker 4: the songs for what you guys are going to do

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Speaker 4: for the podcast.

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Speaker 3: There's a kind of standard repertoire for those hot club Buns,

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Speaker 3: which is a lot of jango rono tunes and a

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Speaker 3: lot of swing tunes from the era. But because we

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Speaker 3: were in sort of nineteen forty two, we wanted to

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Speaker 3: try and reflect a bit of the what we've just

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Speaker 3: been talking about, the slight bebop influence and the swing influence,

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Speaker 3: sort of Benny Goodman's small band thing. So I've got

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Speaker 3: a bank called Profits the Swing, who are myself and

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Speaker 3: three other brilliant musicians. We've got Marcus Penrose on bass,

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Speaker 3: Ross Hughes on clarinet, tenor and baritone who's playing on

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Speaker 3: the recording. And Christian Miller, who's an absolutely incredible guitarist.

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Speaker 3: You've sort of drawn the short straw with me justin unfortunately,

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Speaker 3: So I feel a bit like Angus Young in ac DC.

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Speaker 3: Someone once asked Angus Young, you know his brother Malcolm Young.

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Speaker 3: He was in ac DC's well and wrote a lot

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Speaker 3: of the tunes. Somebody once asked Angus Younger, you're the

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Speaker 3: best guitarist in the world, and he said, made I'm

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Speaker 3: not even the best guitarist in ac DC. And now

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Speaker 3: I'm sort of a bit like that. So you've got

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Speaker 3: the short straw of me Christian's absolutely brilliant, but they're

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Speaker 3: fantastic musicians, and so we kind of went through a

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Speaker 3: lot of swing era tunes. I've worked with Past. A

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Speaker 3: lot is very old pal and so myself and Past

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Speaker 3: talked about basically things with different atmospheres, because when you're

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Speaker 3: doing soundtrack for something, it's not just about how pretty

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Speaker 3: the tunes are or how the melody is whatever. Obviously

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Speaker 3: you're trying this sounds obviously you're you're trying to do

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Speaker 3: something that evokes a certain feeling as well and might

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Speaker 3: and that will advance the narrative and support the emotional

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Speaker 3: beats of the story.

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Speaker 4: What's the first song you landed on that sort of

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Speaker 4: fits the emotional tone of the episode but is also

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Speaker 4: reminiscent of the time.

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Speaker 3: I think it had to Be You was the first

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Speaker 3: one that we kind of felt. It's really well known

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Speaker 3: It had to Be You. People who don't even know

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Speaker 3: jazz stuff know it because it's been used in so

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Speaker 3: many movies and adverts and stuff. But it's such a

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Speaker 3: beautiful It's a lovely melody, and it's kind of wistful

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Speaker 3: and a little bit kind of melancholy at the same time.

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Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean, it's got that lovely

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Speaker 3: kind of ambiguous feel to it, and that was a

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Speaker 3: I think the man I love as well for similar reasons,

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Speaker 3: you know, I.

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Speaker 5: Mean, it's really interesting.

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Speaker 2: You know, Ed has a lot more knowledge than me

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Speaker 2: about this sort of particular era of music, but it

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Speaker 2: was quite interesting when he was sending me tracks. Quite often,

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Speaker 2: you know, a track will have a very particular kind

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Speaker 2: of introduction that may or may not really relate to

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Speaker 2: how the rest of the chimpanzee. And I remember you

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Speaker 2: sent me a Django Dark Eyes thing it And of course,

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Speaker 2: you know, with the subject matter of the podcast, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's important that we get this sense of you know,

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Speaker 2: clubs and people having a great time and swinging about

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Speaker 2: in nineteen forties London. But you know, the central current

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Speaker 2: of this podcast is about a very awful series of

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Speaker 2: murders and about some pretty bleak lives and situations, so

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Speaker 2: we had to kind of keep half an hour, even

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Speaker 2: though you know, my underscoring is more takes care of

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Speaker 2: that side of the podcast. But I remember when you

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Speaker 2: played me the intro to Dark Eyes, it had this

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Speaker 2: sort of incredible, kind of dark, exotic kind of feel,

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Speaker 2: and it's really It's really interesting how an introduction to

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Speaker 2: a tune can then just sort of be bounced out

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Speaker 2: the way and then the kind of kicks.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an interesting tune that because it's it's basically

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Speaker 3: the gypsy it's kind of the unofficial gypsy anthem, and

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Speaker 3: you'll know it's really familiar. It's the one that goes

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Speaker 3: it's really famous, and it's again it's one of those

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Speaker 3: when you play it in gypsy an I haven't got

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Speaker 3: the right guitar for it at all, but when you

355
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Speaker 3: play in gypsy bands you play it a kind of

356
00:18:38,076 --> 00:18:40,516
Speaker 3: up like that. But as Pass said, because it has

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Speaker 3: inherently got this kind of major minor, slightly ambiguous, melancholic,

358
00:18:45,356 --> 00:18:48,236
Speaker 3: slightly almost sinister quality to it, we did a thing

359
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Speaker 3: where we did lot soon bringing out the kind of.

360
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Speaker 2: And then it just it floats down in a much

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Speaker 2: more ambiguous player.

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Speaker 7: Something.

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Speaker 4: That's beautiful.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to a special crossover episode of Bad Women

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Speaker 1: and Broken Record. There'll be more chat and more music

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Speaker 1: after this short break.

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Speaker 4: It had to be you was the first track that

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Speaker 4: you guys landed on, so we should listen to that.

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Speaker 4: This is your guys condition of it. Who initially wrote

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Speaker 4: the song, and who would you say had the most

371
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Speaker 4: famous aversion of it?

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Speaker 3: She sure who wrote it early on? Most famous version?

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Speaker 3: That's hard, isn't it? I mean, I guess I mean everyone.

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Speaker 3: It's one of those standards that everyone's done. I suppose

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Speaker 3: for people, probably people now it's probably Harry Connick actually,

376
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Speaker 3: because he did that version of it for the movie

377
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Speaker 3: when Hallie met Harry met Sally, which is huge. You know, Yeah,

378
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Speaker 3: it's probably Harry.

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Speaker 4: I'll have what he's having exactly, it might be.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

381
00:19:59,316 --> 00:20:03,836
Speaker 2: I mean, what's incredible about these chunes is you know,

382
00:20:03,876 --> 00:20:06,836
Speaker 2: and this is again I'm stating the obvious here. Why

383
00:20:06,876 --> 00:20:08,196
Speaker 2: are they called jazz standards?

384
00:20:08,236 --> 00:20:08,396
Speaker 7: You know?

385
00:20:08,556 --> 00:20:12,316
Speaker 2: But the malleability is extraordinary. The way you can you

386
00:20:12,356 --> 00:20:17,716
Speaker 2: can take a tune, imbue it with you know, upbeat,

387
00:20:17,996 --> 00:20:21,036
Speaker 2: care free romance, and then you can choose to play

388
00:20:21,076 --> 00:20:24,516
Speaker 2: it in a way that completely undercuts that. And the

389
00:20:24,636 --> 00:20:27,796
Speaker 2: quick and dirty twicks that I've sometimes used in soundtracking.

390
00:20:27,876 --> 00:20:32,916
Speaker 2: Is is really time stretching music recordings of music, particularly

391
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Speaker 2: on the piano. I did this quite a lot in

392
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Speaker 2: Season one of Bad Women. You know, you time stretch

393
00:20:38,356 --> 00:20:40,796
Speaker 2: the whole thing out and then and sink it in

394
00:20:40,876 --> 00:20:46,596
Speaker 2: reverb and essentially, you know, even very optimistic sounding harmonies

395
00:20:46,636 --> 00:20:49,876
Speaker 2: suddenly start to kind of swim around and develop a

396
00:20:49,956 --> 00:20:54,156
Speaker 2: much more mysterious, dark undertow. And it's just it's a

397
00:20:54,196 --> 00:20:57,076
Speaker 2: testament to how these tunes can be pulled around and

398
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Speaker 2: they survive, you know.

399
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Speaker 3: Sophistication in the writing. You know, we were myself and Pascal,

400
00:21:03,236 --> 00:21:06,716
Speaker 3: but we've got a little thing that the little arrangement

401
00:21:06,836 --> 00:21:08,756
Speaker 3: Lady be good to play for you today, just to

402
00:21:08,836 --> 00:21:10,236
Speaker 3: term of as a duet. And we were looking at

403
00:21:10,236 --> 00:21:12,916
Speaker 3: some Ellington things and other stuff, and especially with Ellington,

404
00:21:12,996 --> 00:21:16,116
Speaker 3: like the harmonic stuff. You know, the chords and the

405
00:21:16,236 --> 00:21:20,476
Speaker 3: relationship between chords and melody and rhythm is so complex

406
00:21:20,516 --> 00:21:24,836
Speaker 3: and so sophisticated, but not in a flash showing off,

407
00:21:24,876 --> 00:21:26,716
Speaker 3: do you know what I mean. It's like the tunes

408
00:21:26,756 --> 00:21:28,796
Speaker 3: sound so beautiful and so simple. It's only when you

409
00:21:28,796 --> 00:21:31,116
Speaker 3: try and play them you're like, this is really hard,

410
00:21:31,316 --> 00:21:33,356
Speaker 3: you know, because they sound so gorgeous.

411
00:21:33,596 --> 00:21:36,516
Speaker 4: That's why you know Ellington was a genius.

412
00:21:36,236 --> 00:21:38,956
Speaker 3: Arrangerent great and Billy stre you know, they were just

413
00:21:39,036 --> 00:21:42,076
Speaker 3: both incredible. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean we you know,

414
00:21:42,356 --> 00:21:44,076
Speaker 3: things like take the a train where you've got you know,

415
00:21:44,316 --> 00:21:46,396
Speaker 3: big sort of major chord and then the second chord

416
00:21:46,436 --> 00:21:49,076
Speaker 3: has got this slightly crunchy.

417
00:21:52,956 --> 00:21:53,156
Speaker 6: Yeah.

418
00:21:53,196 --> 00:21:55,276
Speaker 3: I mean he's just you know, and and a lot

419
00:21:55,276 --> 00:21:57,276
Speaker 3: of the composers of that era, I mean Ellington obviously

420
00:21:57,276 --> 00:22:00,636
Speaker 3: being in my opinion, the pre eminent jazz composer of

421
00:22:00,676 --> 00:22:03,036
Speaker 3: all time, well pre eminent composer of all time, but

422
00:22:03,116 --> 00:22:05,516
Speaker 3: you know, lots of those guys who were writing music

423
00:22:05,516 --> 00:22:08,836
Speaker 3: then Colportare and the Gershwins and stuff. It's like, yeah,

424
00:22:08,876 --> 00:22:12,636
Speaker 3: there's there is a real sort of sophistication to the

425
00:22:13,596 --> 00:22:18,916
Speaker 3: harmonic material that just makes it endlessly open to reinvention.

426
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Speaker 4: You know, absolutely, well, let's listen to your rendition of

427
00:22:22,916 --> 00:22:25,276
Speaker 4: it had to be You for Bad Women's Season.

428
00:22:25,036 --> 00:23:09,236
Speaker 8: Two and.

429
00:23:15,276 --> 00:23:23,916
Speaker 9: And I know.

430
00:23:25,636 --> 00:23:32,076
Speaker 10: A lad.

431
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Speaker 9: And don't.

432
00:24:32,316 --> 00:25:00,556
Speaker 7: Eat dot dot dot think that.

433
00:25:03,436 --> 00:25:05,156
Speaker 6: Next night taking.

434
00:25:09,356 --> 00:25:22,076
Speaker 10: An the game to lay the game.

435
00:25:28,156 --> 00:25:31,996
Speaker 7: And using.

436
00:26:34,076 --> 00:26:36,756
Speaker 4: That was great, Thank you, We played sax On that.

437
00:26:36,756 --> 00:26:40,196
Speaker 3: That's Ross Hughes, who's absolutely brilliant. Ross is another old

438
00:26:40,196 --> 00:26:42,156
Speaker 3: friend of myself and Pascal is that we've both wort

439
00:26:42,236 --> 00:26:45,756
Speaker 3: with a lot. He's a brilliant composer and arranger and

440
00:26:46,076 --> 00:26:49,516
Speaker 3: absolute i mean, a proper multi instrumentalist. Most of us.

441
00:26:49,836 --> 00:26:51,676
Speaker 5: We always refer to him as the real musician.

442
00:26:51,916 --> 00:26:53,076
Speaker 3: Is the real musician, isn't he?

443
00:26:53,156 --> 00:26:54,236
Speaker 4: Yeah, And it's funny.

444
00:26:54,276 --> 00:26:56,436
Speaker 3: Like most musicians, we will play a couple of things,

445
00:26:56,476 --> 00:26:58,916
Speaker 3: but we get kind of weaker as the circle goes out,

446
00:26:58,996 --> 00:27:01,556
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. Whereas Ross is absolutely you know,

447
00:27:01,596 --> 00:27:04,756
Speaker 3: he's a fantastic clarinet player, beautiful saxophone, all the woodwinds.

448
00:27:04,756 --> 00:27:07,076
Speaker 3: He's a great piano player, he's a lovely bass player.

449
00:27:07,116 --> 00:27:09,796
Speaker 3: He's a you know, absolute multi instrumentalist.

450
00:27:10,276 --> 00:27:13,956
Speaker 4: Well that's great. I mean, such a sultry tune. And

451
00:27:14,316 --> 00:27:16,876
Speaker 4: I think for people listening who haven't heard Bad Women yet,

452
00:27:17,156 --> 00:27:18,716
Speaker 4: it'll be interesting for them to hear how that was

453
00:27:19,196 --> 00:27:19,556
Speaker 4: in the show.

454
00:27:19,596 --> 00:27:21,756
Speaker 2: I mean, it's I think with all of these, while

455
00:27:21,836 --> 00:27:25,076
Speaker 2: we knew there was a certain function, you know, sometimes

456
00:27:25,076 --> 00:27:28,276
Speaker 2: we just we needed tunes to step up and be

457
00:27:28,476 --> 00:27:32,876
Speaker 2: danceable and and give off some of the you know,

458
00:27:32,956 --> 00:27:34,676
Speaker 2: the difficult optimism of the time.

459
00:27:34,916 --> 00:27:35,116
Speaker 10: Though.

460
00:27:36,236 --> 00:27:39,596
Speaker 2: I was always when we were discussing how to play them,

461
00:27:39,636 --> 00:27:43,116
Speaker 2: I was always trying to push them towards the ambiguity

462
00:27:43,276 --> 00:27:44,636
Speaker 2: and the melancholy if it was.

463
00:27:44,636 --> 00:27:45,796
Speaker 4: In there in the area.

464
00:27:45,916 --> 00:27:49,076
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it resonates with the stories that we're hearing.

465
00:27:49,116 --> 00:27:53,156
Speaker 2: You know, these are the episodes alittered with romances that

466
00:27:53,276 --> 00:27:56,996
Speaker 2: go astray, and you know, and even the concept or

467
00:27:56,996 --> 00:27:59,636
Speaker 2: something like oh lady, be good. You know, it strikes

468
00:27:59,636 --> 00:28:02,596
Speaker 2: a big resonance with the way women were being treated

469
00:28:02,676 --> 00:28:06,596
Speaker 2: and talked about and dealt with in those times. So

470
00:28:07,436 --> 00:28:10,996
Speaker 2: it's yeah, if we that level of ambiguity, which I

471
00:28:10,996 --> 00:28:13,556
Speaker 2: think does come through in that take. And I should say,

472
00:28:13,596 --> 00:28:18,516
Speaker 2: you know that we were not after utterly perfect camera

473
00:28:18,596 --> 00:28:21,596
Speaker 2: ready takes, if you see what I mean. That's and

474
00:28:21,676 --> 00:28:24,396
Speaker 2: the band love yeah, mashing.

475
00:28:24,076 --> 00:28:27,076
Speaker 4: Up little spontanegy. Yeah, yeah, it's not going to be

476
00:28:27,796 --> 00:28:29,396
Speaker 4: you know, necessarily the perfect recording.

477
00:28:29,476 --> 00:28:32,236
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that fitted the music of the day, you know.

478
00:28:32,316 --> 00:28:34,156
Speaker 3: I think that's the thing, like we're you know, I'm

479
00:28:34,716 --> 00:28:38,556
Speaker 3: you know, so reverent about that music and about those

480
00:28:38,636 --> 00:28:41,276
Speaker 3: tunes and that time. And when you talk to older musicians,

481
00:28:41,596 --> 00:28:44,156
Speaker 3: they had no idea that this stuff people would still

482
00:28:44,196 --> 00:28:47,036
Speaker 3: be playing this stuff fifty sixty one hundred years later,

483
00:28:47,076 --> 00:28:47,636
Speaker 3: do you know what I mean?

484
00:28:47,716 --> 00:28:50,716
Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, I think that strikes that are really interesting,

485
00:28:51,276 --> 00:28:54,796
Speaker 2: you know, the very broader theme in audio, you know,

486
00:28:54,836 --> 00:28:58,476
Speaker 2: this idea that we've we have perfected things and then

487
00:28:58,596 --> 00:29:02,276
Speaker 2: had to find ways of reintroducing error and imperfection.

488
00:29:02,516 --> 00:29:03,676
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know.

489
00:29:03,676 --> 00:29:06,156
Speaker 2: Which is a bit of a broader, bigger philosophical point,

490
00:29:06,196 --> 00:29:06,836
Speaker 2: but it is.

491
00:29:07,516 --> 00:29:08,436
Speaker 5: It's really important.

492
00:29:08,516 --> 00:29:13,156
Speaker 2: This stuff does sound like some ultra polished studios session

493
00:29:13,196 --> 00:29:16,676
Speaker 2: that's dumped into and I'm a nightclub and then and really,

494
00:29:16,876 --> 00:29:19,756
Speaker 2: I mean a ridiculous and extreme example of that is

495
00:29:20,716 --> 00:29:21,516
Speaker 2: Oh Johnny O.

496
00:29:21,716 --> 00:29:23,036
Speaker 5: Which we didn't We didn't.

497
00:29:22,796 --> 00:29:25,276
Speaker 2: Record fully at all because what happens is about eight

498
00:29:25,276 --> 00:29:27,516
Speaker 2: pars into it, a bomb drops on a club. So

499
00:29:28,156 --> 00:29:30,836
Speaker 2: I literally it was like the guys just started playing

500
00:29:30,836 --> 00:29:33,076
Speaker 2: and I just walked intoid. Okay, A bombers dropped on

501
00:29:33,316 --> 00:29:36,596
Speaker 2: so you can stop. You know, there's an extraordinary scene

502
00:29:36,596 --> 00:29:38,156
Speaker 2: where it's saying, you know, I knew, I knew the

503
00:29:38,196 --> 00:29:40,436
Speaker 2: sound design had already done it, and it's like, yeah,

504
00:29:40,556 --> 00:29:42,436
Speaker 2: I just need to hear you start this tune because

505
00:29:42,436 --> 00:29:43,356
Speaker 2: the bomber is going to drop.

506
00:29:43,596 --> 00:29:46,636
Speaker 4: So you're saying, this group is not like the Titanic.

507
00:29:48,716 --> 00:29:53,196
Speaker 4: The ship could have done that. There's not that leveling

508
00:29:53,236 --> 00:29:53,836
Speaker 4: it for the exit.

509
00:29:54,076 --> 00:29:57,796
Speaker 5: Absolutely, what was.

510
00:29:57,796 --> 00:29:59,076
Speaker 4: The next team you guys settled on?

511
00:29:59,716 --> 00:30:01,956
Speaker 3: Think after that? It might have been diner actually, which

512
00:30:01,996 --> 00:30:04,476
Speaker 3: is a really old standard Diner's one that you're here

513
00:30:04,516 --> 00:30:08,116
Speaker 3: on early Hot Club of France records, Django and Stefan

514
00:30:08,116 --> 00:30:14,036
Speaker 3: Grippelli recorded that a lot of times. Yeah Lewis did it, Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, No,

515
00:30:14,116 --> 00:30:16,796
Speaker 3: I mean it was a real It was again, you know,

516
00:30:16,916 --> 00:30:20,316
Speaker 3: sort of massive pop hit of the day that got

517
00:30:20,356 --> 00:30:21,996
Speaker 3: reinvented by jazz musicians.

518
00:30:22,116 --> 00:30:25,116
Speaker 2: You know, trying to get yourself into that mindset of

519
00:30:25,156 --> 00:30:30,996
Speaker 2: this being, isn't it It requires a real I wish

520
00:30:31,076 --> 00:30:32,556
Speaker 2: it stretch.

521
00:30:32,196 --> 00:30:34,076
Speaker 5: Of the of the imagination and that.

522
00:30:34,156 --> 00:30:37,796
Speaker 3: And you know, certainly the bebop movement, you know, was

523
00:30:38,316 --> 00:30:40,996
Speaker 3: occupied a very you know, now it's become this really

524
00:30:41,116 --> 00:30:44,236
Speaker 3: rarefied thing that's taught in you know, I went to university.

525
00:30:44,276 --> 00:30:46,036
Speaker 3: I did a jazz degree course. It was just like

526
00:30:46,036 --> 00:30:49,996
Speaker 3: that movie Whiplash, but less overrated, and so I did

527
00:30:49,996 --> 00:30:50,836
Speaker 3: that and it was brilliant.

528
00:30:50,836 --> 00:30:51,116
Speaker 2: I mean, we.

529
00:30:51,476 --> 00:30:56,396
Speaker 3: Had we had amazing teachers and you know, they was brilliant,

530
00:30:56,556 --> 00:30:59,676
Speaker 3: incredible musicians, and it was a really interesting experience. But

531
00:30:59,716 --> 00:31:01,716
Speaker 3: they talk about this themselves, the idea that that stuff

532
00:31:01,796 --> 00:31:04,756
Speaker 3: is now taught in sort of conservatoires and whatever, and

533
00:31:04,796 --> 00:31:07,916
Speaker 3: you know, it was total, it was complete outlaw music.

534
00:31:07,956 --> 00:31:09,636
Speaker 3: It was rebel music of the tim do you know

535
00:31:09,636 --> 00:31:11,956
Speaker 3: what I mean. It wasn't in any way socially acceptable,

536
00:31:12,276 --> 00:31:15,516
Speaker 3: and the people that played it were viewed by you know,

537
00:31:15,836 --> 00:31:18,716
Speaker 3: sort of the media and the establishment of the forties,

538
00:31:18,796 --> 00:31:21,676
Speaker 3: as in the way that gangster rappers were viewed in

539
00:31:21,716 --> 00:31:23,236
Speaker 3: the nineties, you know what I mean. They were viewed

540
00:31:23,236 --> 00:31:26,356
Speaker 3: as these kind of scary, you know, ghetto people that

541
00:31:26,396 --> 00:31:29,156
Speaker 3: were heroin addicts and would you know, corrupt your children.

542
00:31:29,236 --> 00:31:32,436
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, I mean very unfairly obviously, because they

543
00:31:32,436 --> 00:31:35,556
Speaker 3: were you know, studious, incredible musicians, but.

544
00:31:35,476 --> 00:31:38,596
Speaker 2: That you know, and that's that's so hard to reach

545
00:31:38,716 --> 00:31:41,916
Speaker 2: back and try and trying to kind of imagine that

546
00:31:42,036 --> 00:31:45,356
Speaker 2: sentiment now because you know, now sounds so sort of

547
00:31:45,396 --> 00:31:47,076
Speaker 2: in some ways refined.

548
00:31:46,596 --> 00:31:49,076
Speaker 3: And yeah, totally and general way that hip hop has

549
00:31:49,116 --> 00:31:51,716
Speaker 3: become very much pop music now. You know, when we

550
00:31:51,716 --> 00:31:53,676
Speaker 3: were kids in the eighties and nineties, it wasn't and

551
00:31:53,716 --> 00:31:57,316
Speaker 3: now it's you know, it's completely kind of mainstream pop.

552
00:31:57,396 --> 00:31:59,676
Speaker 3: So it's, you know, the same thing happens again, doesn't it.

553
00:32:00,436 --> 00:32:03,556
Speaker 4: If we're being honest. I'm sure jazz musicians, especially in

554
00:32:03,596 --> 00:32:06,876
Speaker 4: the B bar, were probably more ill beheard.

555
00:32:08,076 --> 00:32:11,196
Speaker 3: Some of them were completely of them were honestly some

556
00:32:11,236 --> 00:32:13,196
Speaker 3: of them, I think we're very naughty boys and girls.

557
00:32:13,476 --> 00:32:18,556
Speaker 4: They check out, you guys version of the old standard Dinah.

558
00:32:33,076 --> 00:33:39,636
Speaker 6: Him and not time and the ritten and then then

559
00:33:41,076 --> 00:35:02,516
Speaker 6: then when the comment and then I think many minute

560
00:35:02,636 --> 00:35:05,516
Speaker 6: and a minute thinking.

561
00:35:06,156 --> 00:35:19,916
Speaker 3: The three endings with the prize.

562
00:35:20,476 --> 00:35:22,476
Speaker 2: When I was listening to that really reminded me of

563
00:35:22,596 --> 00:35:26,236
Speaker 2: something that I remember talking to the band about on

564
00:35:26,316 --> 00:35:28,196
Speaker 2: the day. And again it goes back to this idea

565
00:35:28,316 --> 00:35:32,036
Speaker 2: of creating music that sounds like it's belonging in a

566
00:35:32,076 --> 00:35:34,836
Speaker 2: particular space and a place. I remember saying, and I

567
00:35:34,916 --> 00:35:36,316
Speaker 2: don't know whether it was on this tune, but it

568
00:35:36,476 --> 00:35:38,476
Speaker 2: kind of is relevant anyway. I remember saying, you know,

569
00:35:39,276 --> 00:35:42,476
Speaker 2: you've got to imagine that you're playing and there's people

570
00:35:42,516 --> 00:35:44,036
Speaker 2: around you making a hell of a racket.

571
00:35:44,556 --> 00:35:45,956
Speaker 5: I remember saying at one point.

572
00:35:45,876 --> 00:35:48,916
Speaker 2: You've got to play as if people are basically ignoring you,

573
00:35:49,156 --> 00:35:54,836
Speaker 2: and that everyone's jazz musician. But it's you know, it's

574
00:35:54,916 --> 00:35:57,476
Speaker 2: like it's trying to get that that spirit in of

575
00:35:57,476 --> 00:35:59,396
Speaker 2: because you know, I know, having played you know a

576
00:35:59,476 --> 00:36:01,596
Speaker 2: bit and weddings and you name it, you know, when

577
00:36:02,516 --> 00:36:04,956
Speaker 2: the way you play it adjusts to the crowd, to

578
00:36:04,996 --> 00:36:08,516
Speaker 2: a degree, and so I really wanted to try and occasionally,

579
00:36:09,636 --> 00:36:12,716
Speaker 2: you know, get that feeling of the band about to

580
00:36:13,356 --> 00:36:15,556
Speaker 2: maybe fall apart. Doesn't it doesn't feel so in that

581
00:36:15,596 --> 00:36:17,516
Speaker 2: apart from that little end bit, which is really nice,

582
00:36:17,516 --> 00:36:19,716
Speaker 2: it's like it's more or less like they've they've kind

583
00:36:19,716 --> 00:36:21,236
Speaker 2: of given up. All right, Come, let's get a drink.

584
00:36:21,276 --> 00:36:23,156
Speaker 2: No one's listening, you know, And I really I love that.

585
00:36:23,316 --> 00:36:25,676
Speaker 2: I love that about it because that felt very important

586
00:36:25,716 --> 00:36:27,676
Speaker 2: to me to you know, from the point of view

587
00:36:27,716 --> 00:36:31,436
Speaker 2: of getting it to sit right under you know, because

588
00:36:31,436 --> 00:36:33,556
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, I'm what I'm going to put over the

589
00:36:33,636 --> 00:36:35,476
Speaker 2: top of this, which is a shame on one level

590
00:36:35,476 --> 00:36:38,236
Speaker 2: because I'm covering it with people drinking and talking and

591
00:36:38,396 --> 00:36:40,156
Speaker 2: you know, the sound of this, that and the other.

592
00:36:40,316 --> 00:36:43,116
Speaker 2: But on another level yet it's about how can we

593
00:36:43,956 --> 00:36:46,516
Speaker 2: how can we make this really sit right in the

594
00:36:46,676 --> 00:36:48,356
Speaker 2: dramatic situation, and.

595
00:36:48,556 --> 00:36:52,076
Speaker 4: On yet another level that that feels like the appropriate

596
00:36:52,156 --> 00:36:52,596
Speaker 4: place to be.

597
00:36:52,796 --> 00:36:57,836
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's yeah, yeah, listening back to that, I haven't

598
00:36:57,836 --> 00:37:00,316
Speaker 3: listened to that tune for a little bit. And Marcus

599
00:37:00,396 --> 00:37:02,956
Speaker 3: the bass player, Marx Penrose, absolutely still in job of

600
00:37:02,996 --> 00:37:07,796
Speaker 3: holding everything together. He's amazing. Yeah, he totally. Is you

601
00:37:07,836 --> 00:37:09,716
Speaker 3: sort of cling to Marcus. He's got so just strong

602
00:37:10,436 --> 00:37:13,996
Speaker 3: rhythmic drive and he's so brilliant reforms. He's always absolutely

603
00:37:14,076 --> 00:37:14,516
Speaker 3: right on it.

604
00:37:15,316 --> 00:37:17,236
Speaker 4: That idea of fighting to for the audience. I feel

605
00:37:17,236 --> 00:37:19,356
Speaker 4: like it's something that's lost, you know that. I think

606
00:37:19,396 --> 00:37:21,756
Speaker 4: that's sort of why jazz is sort of regarded in

607
00:37:21,836 --> 00:37:24,276
Speaker 4: the sort of rarefied are now, this idea that it's

608
00:37:24,316 --> 00:37:26,956
Speaker 4: to be played and you know, yeah, with with with

609
00:37:27,156 --> 00:37:32,116
Speaker 4: with you know, an audience who's deadly quiet after you

610
00:37:32,276 --> 00:37:35,036
Speaker 4: have to clap after the solo. Yeah, it's like, well,

611
00:37:35,116 --> 00:37:37,436
Speaker 4: maybe maybe you should earn that. Yeah, you know, maybe

612
00:37:37,636 --> 00:37:38,516
Speaker 4: and maybe you should earn that.

613
00:37:38,996 --> 00:37:43,276
Speaker 2: I was always fascinated by the Jazz Cafe in London.

614
00:37:43,356 --> 00:37:45,516
Speaker 2: I'm you know, I'm talking about twenty three years ago now,

615
00:37:45,596 --> 00:37:47,276
Speaker 2: but I remember when it you know, when it was

616
00:37:47,316 --> 00:37:47,676
Speaker 2: done up.

617
00:37:47,716 --> 00:37:50,836
Speaker 5: They had this on the wall above the stage.

618
00:37:50,996 --> 00:37:55,636
Speaker 2: They had s t f U during performances thanks and

619
00:37:55,756 --> 00:37:58,156
Speaker 2: that meant shut the fuck up during performances. And it's like,

620
00:37:58,396 --> 00:38:00,796
Speaker 2: that's an interesting vibe to kind of set up in

621
00:38:00,876 --> 00:38:01,596
Speaker 2: a jazz club.

622
00:38:01,916 --> 00:38:04,516
Speaker 3: You know what the in Brixton, if you're ever in London,

623
00:38:04,676 --> 00:38:06,116
Speaker 3: justin you have to go to the f for Tavern

624
00:38:06,196 --> 00:38:09,956
Speaker 3: in Brixton because there's an incredible set musicians who play

625
00:38:09,956 --> 00:38:11,796
Speaker 3: their led by a guy called Allen Weeks, who's a

626
00:38:11,956 --> 00:38:15,116
Speaker 3: British Caribbean guitar player. He played in loads of reggae

627
00:38:15,156 --> 00:38:18,436
Speaker 3: bands in the seventies and eighties and incredible jazz guitar player.

628
00:38:18,636 --> 00:38:19,876
Speaker 3: And they just set up in the corner of the

629
00:38:19,876 --> 00:38:21,516
Speaker 3: pub and they just play, and it's this kind of

630
00:38:21,596 --> 00:38:24,956
Speaker 3: it's brilliant. It's a proper sort of raucous gig where

631
00:38:24,996 --> 00:38:26,716
Speaker 3: people come to drink and dance and to have a

632
00:38:26,756 --> 00:38:28,876
Speaker 3: good time, and you know, and they play all these tunes.

633
00:38:28,916 --> 00:38:31,436
Speaker 3: They play all the old standards and all that stuff,

634
00:38:31,436 --> 00:38:33,596
Speaker 3: but they also mix up with playing scar tunes and

635
00:38:33,716 --> 00:38:36,556
Speaker 3: reggae things and James Brown and kind of funk stuff,

636
00:38:36,596 --> 00:38:39,596
Speaker 3: and it's just it's really interesting how they Yeah, they

637
00:38:39,716 --> 00:38:44,796
Speaker 3: absolutely they've got great integrity as musicians, but they absolutely

638
00:38:45,116 --> 00:38:48,356
Speaker 3: make it accessible as well. And I think that's yeah,

639
00:38:48,356 --> 00:38:48,756
Speaker 3: And that's.

640
00:38:49,036 --> 00:38:52,836
Speaker 2: With strangely tangentially related to that is the business of

641
00:38:52,956 --> 00:38:57,396
Speaker 2: doing music within podcasts. You know, it's like there's almost

642
00:38:57,556 --> 00:39:00,636
Speaker 2: always a voice happening in a podcast for obvious reasons,

643
00:39:00,636 --> 00:39:03,356
Speaker 2: and that voices bang center, center stage, you know. So

644
00:39:03,516 --> 00:39:06,676
Speaker 2: it's like if you were writing music for a film

645
00:39:06,796 --> 00:39:08,636
Speaker 2: or even for like a radio drama or something, it's

646
00:39:08,716 --> 00:39:12,076
Speaker 2: con seevable that you would have the stage to yourself

647
00:39:12,116 --> 00:39:15,556
Speaker 2: for a little But that really very rarely happens in

648
00:39:15,596 --> 00:39:17,676
Speaker 2: a podcast. You might get you might get a little

649
00:39:17,836 --> 00:39:21,036
Speaker 2: sniff of it when you when the narration at the

650
00:39:21,116 --> 00:39:23,316
Speaker 2: top of the podcast makes way for the theme, and

651
00:39:23,396 --> 00:39:26,156
Speaker 2: it's really interesting. It's a really interesting challenge that about

652
00:39:26,196 --> 00:39:29,556
Speaker 2: how to make music that will that can coexist with

653
00:39:29,676 --> 00:39:33,796
Speaker 2: a speaking voice that is pretty much always there. So

654
00:39:33,876 --> 00:39:36,036
Speaker 2: I do remember, you know, as at times when people

655
00:39:36,076 --> 00:39:38,436
Speaker 2: were doing these sort of amazing solos and I just thought,

656
00:39:39,116 --> 00:39:41,636
Speaker 2: that's great to have in the can, but I'm going

657
00:39:41,716 --> 00:39:43,596
Speaker 2: to need a sort of slightly paired.

658
00:39:43,596 --> 00:39:47,356
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's something less interesting you need, and it sounds

659
00:39:47,356 --> 00:39:49,316
Speaker 3: awful to put it in those That's the game, isn't it.

660
00:39:49,436 --> 00:39:49,996
Speaker 6: That's the job.

661
00:39:50,036 --> 00:39:51,636
Speaker 3: And it's like, yeah, and I think that's the same

662
00:39:51,876 --> 00:39:54,436
Speaker 3: you're dead right podcast even more so than other things.

663
00:39:54,476 --> 00:39:56,396
Speaker 3: But even when you're scoring music for theater or film

664
00:39:56,476 --> 00:39:59,276
Speaker 3: or whatever, sometimes a really interesting bit of music is

665
00:39:59,276 --> 00:40:01,116
Speaker 3: the last thing you need. So that's why you know,

666
00:40:01,236 --> 00:40:03,876
Speaker 3: the Jaws music or whatever. Those iconic things that are

667
00:40:03,956 --> 00:40:05,956
Speaker 3: just like two or three notes, you know, are so

668
00:40:06,116 --> 00:40:09,916
Speaker 3: brilliant because they underpin the emotional and narrative beats of

669
00:40:09,996 --> 00:40:11,476
Speaker 3: the story in such a great way.

670
00:40:11,556 --> 00:40:11,716
Speaker 6: You know.

671
00:40:12,036 --> 00:40:15,836
Speaker 2: Yeah, they exist in the in the spaces around and yeah,

672
00:40:15,836 --> 00:40:19,676
Speaker 2: I'm kind of really fascinated by how music is absorbed

673
00:40:19,756 --> 00:40:21,156
Speaker 2: in these sort of situations.

674
00:40:21,196 --> 00:40:24,716
Speaker 5: I mean, honestly, you would.

675
00:40:24,516 --> 00:40:27,636
Speaker 2: Be horrified if you took some of the cues out

676
00:40:27,756 --> 00:40:30,356
Speaker 2: of you know, the shows and just listen to them

677
00:40:30,436 --> 00:40:34,756
Speaker 2: in absolute isolation, because they're you know, they're designed to

678
00:40:34,916 --> 00:40:38,276
Speaker 2: work alongside a voice and and and the listener kind

679
00:40:38,276 --> 00:40:40,596
Speaker 2: of goes in and out of it that they're not

680
00:40:40,716 --> 00:40:43,196
Speaker 2: they're not locking onto it, so absolute. I don't know

681
00:40:43,236 --> 00:40:44,836
Speaker 2: why I thought of that, just because we were talking.

682
00:40:44,836 --> 00:40:46,916
Speaker 2: We ended up in that area of you know, people

683
00:40:46,996 --> 00:40:49,596
Speaker 2: talking over music. But it's an interesting kind of correlation.

684
00:40:50,316 --> 00:40:53,516
Speaker 1: You're listening to a special crossover episode of Bad Women

685
00:40:53,716 --> 00:40:56,836
Speaker 1: and Broken Record. There'll be more jazz and more conversation

686
00:40:57,196 --> 00:40:58,236
Speaker 1: after this short break.

687
00:41:00,436 --> 00:41:03,556
Speaker 4: One ierful should play the Gershwin tune next. You guys

688
00:41:03,596 --> 00:41:06,516
Speaker 4: did a version of man I Love anything you want

689
00:41:06,516 --> 00:41:08,076
Speaker 4: to say about it? Before I play no, I think

690
00:41:08,076 --> 00:41:08,676
Speaker 4: if you play it and.

691
00:41:08,676 --> 00:41:10,996
Speaker 2: Then we can play it, yeah, because particularly as it

692
00:41:10,996 --> 00:41:12,436
Speaker 2: will stick it back in my head.

693
00:41:13,236 --> 00:41:14,356
Speaker 4: Okay, let's give a listen.

694
00:41:18,396 --> 00:41:18,636
Speaker 8: Three.

695
00:41:25,916 --> 00:41:26,836
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, we're both.

696
00:41:26,716 --> 00:41:28,356
Speaker 3: Playing acoustic guitar and no sexually.

697
00:41:30,836 --> 00:41:33,076
Speaker 5: Yeah you hear that. That's what tastes.

698
00:41:51,836 --> 00:42:00,636
Speaker 6: H h.

699
00:42:09,156 --> 00:42:23,916
Speaker 11: And shouting, hacking, sucking, and shall.

700
00:42:22,796 --> 00:42:26,676
Speaker 6: Begin then.

701
00:43:34,916 --> 00:43:35,596
Speaker 7: A bird.

702
00:45:05,516 --> 00:45:08,436
Speaker 2: Nice performance, very nice, that's very nice pro backs and

703
00:45:08,516 --> 00:45:11,716
Speaker 2: really interesting memory to me actually, because you know, we

704
00:45:11,796 --> 00:45:16,316
Speaker 2: spoke a little bit about the idea of reintroducing fragility

705
00:45:16,476 --> 00:45:20,196
Speaker 2: and error, and that was a really good case of that, actually,

706
00:45:20,276 --> 00:45:23,556
Speaker 2: because I'd heard the Billie Holiday version of that tune

707
00:45:24,276 --> 00:45:26,556
Speaker 2: and I really wanted to capture that sense of kind

708
00:45:26,556 --> 00:45:30,876
Speaker 2: of just this idea almost that you would start, you

709
00:45:30,876 --> 00:45:31,876
Speaker 2: would go to sing or.

710
00:45:31,916 --> 00:45:33,916
Speaker 5: Speak and it might it just might not come out.

711
00:45:33,956 --> 00:45:35,316
Speaker 5: It might not work, you know.

712
00:45:35,636 --> 00:45:38,396
Speaker 2: And I remember when on the first take, you know, Ross,

713
00:45:38,556 --> 00:45:41,316
Speaker 2: who's playing the clarinet on that, you know, just gave

714
00:45:41,356 --> 00:45:44,076
Speaker 2: this beautiful but very sort of confident performance, and I

715
00:45:44,276 --> 00:45:47,156
Speaker 2: was like, can you know, can you possibly sort of

716
00:45:47,196 --> 00:45:49,636
Speaker 2: play that as a little bit more as if you know,

717
00:45:49,876 --> 00:45:52,676
Speaker 2: this just might not work, you know, can you can

718
00:45:52,756 --> 00:45:55,796
Speaker 2: you make it much much much more fragile, and I

719
00:45:55,836 --> 00:45:59,796
Speaker 2: think he really nailed that. And yeah, and again you

720
00:45:59,836 --> 00:46:02,076
Speaker 2: know that ending that was completely spurre. At the moment,

721
00:46:02,596 --> 00:46:04,916
Speaker 2: I was sort of on my feet and thinking, actually

722
00:46:04,996 --> 00:46:08,956
Speaker 2: could be quite interesting to have the band just kind

723
00:46:08,996 --> 00:46:11,476
Speaker 2: of dissipate and end up just on the bass. And

724
00:46:11,556 --> 00:46:13,796
Speaker 2: so so that's you know, it's a real case there

725
00:46:13,836 --> 00:46:17,276
Speaker 2: of kind of thinking from an underscoring point of view

726
00:46:17,676 --> 00:46:19,316
Speaker 2: in terms of where this is going to end up.

727
00:46:20,276 --> 00:46:23,836
Speaker 2: That's just a quick idea that I had and thought

728
00:46:23,956 --> 00:46:27,196
Speaker 2: might be useful. But it's interesting because it makes it

729
00:46:27,276 --> 00:46:29,436
Speaker 2: makes that ending a very particular and thing.

730
00:46:29,596 --> 00:46:31,476
Speaker 3: You know, so I definitely charged with the sort of

731
00:46:31,516 --> 00:46:35,556
Speaker 3: loneliness and you know, yeah that solitary voice it's.

732
00:46:35,476 --> 00:46:38,156
Speaker 2: Like, but it was, Yeah, it was an It just

733
00:46:38,316 --> 00:46:40,396
Speaker 2: really reminded me of that of trying to get to

734
00:46:40,516 --> 00:46:45,516
Speaker 2: that level of almost breaking down f charity basically.

735
00:46:45,516 --> 00:46:47,596
Speaker 4: Good instincts because it really felt that way, and I

736
00:46:47,676 --> 00:46:50,836
Speaker 4: think it really was a nice performance for that songs.

737
00:46:51,196 --> 00:46:53,156
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, a testament again to how all

738
00:46:53,196 --> 00:46:56,556
Speaker 2: these tunes can be clothed in so many different ways.

739
00:46:57,516 --> 00:47:01,076
Speaker 2: There's a way of playing that that makes it sound bulletproof, absolutely.

740
00:47:00,636 --> 00:47:03,116
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you can play that as a Frank Viniola

741
00:47:03,396 --> 00:47:07,276
Speaker 3: amazing American guitar player, really kind of up tempo version

742
00:47:07,316 --> 00:47:08,956
Speaker 3: of that that makes it sound really sort of joy

743
00:47:09,356 --> 00:47:11,876
Speaker 3: and you know a real sort of celebration. But yeah,

744
00:47:11,916 --> 00:47:13,316
Speaker 3: when you play it like that, and again, you know,

745
00:47:13,636 --> 00:47:16,556
Speaker 3: props to Marcus Penrose. You know, the bass playing on

746
00:47:16,636 --> 00:47:19,036
Speaker 3: that's so beautiful because you know, it's a hard role

747
00:47:19,156 --> 00:47:21,316
Speaker 3: being a bass player in a band like this where

748
00:47:21,316 --> 00:47:23,956
Speaker 3: there's no drummer basically because obviously, you know, normally in

749
00:47:24,036 --> 00:47:26,356
Speaker 3: a if it's a piano trio or a bigger band,

750
00:47:26,796 --> 00:47:29,236
Speaker 3: the bass player and the drummer locking together and you know,

751
00:47:29,636 --> 00:47:33,036
Speaker 3: the bass players underpinning the harmonic movement and the melodic things,

752
00:47:33,076 --> 00:47:36,076
Speaker 3: but they're also you know, reinforcing with the drummer the

753
00:47:36,196 --> 00:47:39,516
Speaker 3: rhythmic drive of the tune. And without drums or percussion,

754
00:47:40,036 --> 00:47:42,836
Speaker 3: you know, that role is basically like Marcus on his

755
00:47:42,956 --> 00:47:44,556
Speaker 3: own a lot of the time. You know, sometimes if

756
00:47:44,596 --> 00:47:47,236
Speaker 3: I'm if myself or Christian are doing the you know,

757
00:47:47,356 --> 00:47:50,556
Speaker 3: the very strict for in the bath thing, you know,

758
00:47:50,756 --> 00:47:53,356
Speaker 3: that's slightly different. But obviously we were sort of dropping

759
00:47:53,396 --> 00:47:55,516
Speaker 3: in and out of doing that on that tune and Yeah,

760
00:47:55,596 --> 00:47:57,956
Speaker 3: Marcus really kind of keeps that keeps the game alive,

761
00:47:58,116 --> 00:47:58,316
Speaker 3: you know.

762
00:47:58,836 --> 00:48:03,196
Speaker 2: But that's really it's really valuable though because drums, again,

763
00:48:03,316 --> 00:48:05,916
Speaker 2: speaking voice, you have to work quite hard. You have

764
00:48:05,996 --> 00:48:09,556
Speaker 2: to find the right spaces you have to whereas band

765
00:48:10,276 --> 00:48:13,276
Speaker 2: in that format and I just sit underneath the voices.

766
00:48:13,556 --> 00:48:15,916
Speaker 3: Yeah, And because we were trying to keep it kind

767
00:48:15,916 --> 00:48:20,996
Speaker 3: of you know, we weren't slavishly trying to recreate you know,

768
00:48:21,076 --> 00:48:23,316
Speaker 3: a Django run up and a gun to my head,

769
00:48:23,356 --> 00:48:25,916
Speaker 3: but you know we were we were trying to do

770
00:48:26,076 --> 00:48:29,676
Speaker 3: something with that sort of setup. So you know, two guitars,

771
00:48:30,036 --> 00:48:33,076
Speaker 3: bass and then various lead read instruments.

772
00:48:33,756 --> 00:48:36,276
Speaker 5: That would have been what a pretty standard setup in

773
00:48:36,356 --> 00:48:36,916
Speaker 5: a Yeah.

774
00:48:36,956 --> 00:48:38,796
Speaker 3: I mean the Django the hot club thing is, as

775
00:48:38,796 --> 00:48:41,796
Speaker 3: I said earlier, is two rhythm guitars, one lead guitar,

776
00:48:41,956 --> 00:48:46,156
Speaker 3: doll bass and then usually violin or later clarinet and saxophone,

777
00:48:46,196 --> 00:48:46,356
Speaker 3: you know.

778
00:48:46,916 --> 00:48:48,916
Speaker 5: Right, So the lack of drums was that what fed that?

779
00:48:48,996 --> 00:48:51,156
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's got a very European thing.

780
00:48:51,236 --> 00:48:51,476
Speaker 8: Again.

781
00:48:51,556 --> 00:48:54,156
Speaker 3: I think it because you know, Django and those guys

782
00:48:54,196 --> 00:48:56,516
Speaker 3: were coming out of Yeah, and they were coming out

783
00:48:56,556 --> 00:48:59,676
Speaker 3: of playing what we now think of as kind of

784
00:48:59,756 --> 00:49:01,636
Speaker 3: gypsy folk music, do you know what I mean? Where

785
00:49:01,676 --> 00:49:04,436
Speaker 3: it was a lot of a lot of guitars, a

786
00:49:04,516 --> 00:49:08,796
Speaker 3: lot of symbol on violin, so it's mostly stringed instruments really,

787
00:49:08,876 --> 00:49:12,356
Speaker 3: you know, so I think that's where that came from.

788
00:49:12,436 --> 00:49:15,076
Speaker 3: And then of course he was hugely influenced as everyone

789
00:49:15,116 --> 00:49:17,276
Speaker 3: who's ever tried to play jazz, It was and still

790
00:49:17,396 --> 00:49:19,876
Speaker 3: is by Lewis Armstrong, you know, So he was taking

791
00:49:19,956 --> 00:49:24,316
Speaker 3: some of those rhythmic and melodic ideas that Louis Armstrong

792
00:49:24,396 --> 00:49:27,636
Speaker 3: was playing on trumpet and literally transposing them to the guitar.

793
00:49:27,756 --> 00:49:27,956
Speaker 4: Yeah.

794
00:49:28,036 --> 00:49:28,516
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah.

795
00:49:28,556 --> 00:49:30,276
Speaker 4: The last number of you guys did I found a

796
00:49:30,316 --> 00:49:34,476
Speaker 4: New Baby and the rendition that has a great I

797
00:49:34,556 --> 00:49:37,156
Speaker 4: mean probably outside of Flying Solo Flight, one of my

798
00:49:37,676 --> 00:49:41,916
Speaker 4: favorite Charlie Christian guitar solos. Yeah, how did you guys

799
00:49:41,996 --> 00:49:42,596
Speaker 4: land on this one?

800
00:49:42,796 --> 00:49:44,356
Speaker 3: Well, again, we were just trying to think of other

801
00:49:44,436 --> 00:49:47,876
Speaker 3: things that were popular at the time that a lot

802
00:49:47,956 --> 00:49:51,596
Speaker 3: of bands would have been playing, and again, things with

803
00:49:51,716 --> 00:49:55,636
Speaker 3: a sort of interesting harmonic sequence, because again, I Found

804
00:49:55,636 --> 00:49:57,556
Speaker 3: a New Baby's got that as a lot of those

805
00:49:57,596 --> 00:50:00,276
Speaker 3: tunes have got that slight thing where it's kind of

806
00:50:00,356 --> 00:50:05,836
Speaker 3: you know, minor dominant and resolves to this kind of

807
00:50:05,876 --> 00:50:17,316
Speaker 3: pretty major thing, you know, so it's got again, it's

808
00:50:17,316 --> 00:50:19,556
Speaker 3: got both both elements, and I think, I.

809
00:50:19,556 --> 00:50:21,876
Speaker 2: Mean, that's one of the things Ed was brilliant at

810
00:50:22,036 --> 00:50:25,316
Speaker 2: in terms of you know, because I bow to his

811
00:50:25,516 --> 00:50:27,836
Speaker 2: much greater knowledge of this area of music, but he

812
00:50:28,756 --> 00:50:31,876
Speaker 2: completely locked onto the fact that even when we're in

813
00:50:32,236 --> 00:50:34,516
Speaker 2: doing an up temper number like this, it had to

814
00:50:34,596 --> 00:50:37,236
Speaker 2: contain that little seed of ambiguity.

815
00:50:37,476 --> 00:50:39,276
Speaker 5: There's a little.

816
00:50:38,596 --> 00:50:41,516
Speaker 2: Element of pain, you know, and he was very good

817
00:50:41,556 --> 00:50:43,876
Speaker 2: at spartan tunes that would carry that or I just

818
00:50:43,956 --> 00:50:45,676
Speaker 2: have a little bit of grit in the oyster.

819
00:50:45,716 --> 00:50:47,476
Speaker 5: I suppose you could say harmonically, at.

820
00:50:47,436 --> 00:50:50,636
Speaker 4: Least, let's listen to your guys version. I found a

821
00:50:50,636 --> 00:50:52,036
Speaker 4: new baby before we get out of here.

822
00:51:14,596 --> 00:51:17,756
Speaker 6: Two people people to.

823
00:51:29,756 --> 00:52:00,756
Speaker 12: Com compare said anything a family nastact popularly terribly and

824
00:52:01,556 --> 00:52:25,116
Speaker 12: patted particularly Tess and something to.

825
00:52:36,516 --> 00:52:37,396
Speaker 6: Think you can.

826
00:52:54,716 --> 00:54:08,316
Speaker 2: Step the one key ending nice, that's nice. Yeah, I

827
00:54:08,356 --> 00:54:11,316
Speaker 2: mean yeah, I do like I love a one key ending.

828
00:54:12,356 --> 00:54:14,996
Speaker 2: I should say, there's there's, there's there's this massive sea

829
00:54:15,076 --> 00:54:17,676
Speaker 2: of music that you know, we could have picked from.

830
00:54:18,156 --> 00:54:19,596
Speaker 5: And I know that Ryan, our.

831
00:54:19,556 --> 00:54:25,876
Speaker 2: Glorious executive producer, had this huge playlist he'd so imbibed

832
00:54:25,956 --> 00:54:27,996
Speaker 2: the music of the era. I mean, he actually sent

833
00:54:28,076 --> 00:54:30,836
Speaker 2: me the playlist on Spotify, and it was it was horrific.

834
00:54:30,956 --> 00:54:35,516
Speaker 2: It was like, literally, I think if I'd started listening

835
00:54:35,556 --> 00:54:36,916
Speaker 2: to it when he sent it to me, I would

836
00:54:36,956 --> 00:54:39,316
Speaker 2: be way past retirement by the time I got to

837
00:54:39,356 --> 00:54:41,036
Speaker 2: the end of it. But it was a testament of

838
00:54:41,156 --> 00:54:44,836
Speaker 2: just how much he'd kind of soaked up this music,

839
00:54:44,996 --> 00:54:48,676
Speaker 2: and he basically I think, brought the goalposts in and

840
00:54:48,796 --> 00:54:51,076
Speaker 2: said like this is this is the kind of tune.

841
00:54:50,876 --> 00:54:52,436
Speaker 3: And this is the area we need to be in,

842
00:54:52,516 --> 00:54:54,396
Speaker 3: which is so you know that and that for us

843
00:54:54,556 --> 00:54:57,076
Speaker 3: is brilliant, and you know, yeah, it was a lovely

844
00:54:57,996 --> 00:54:59,876
Speaker 3: thing to do to be able to play that music,

845
00:55:01,036 --> 00:55:03,756
Speaker 3: not in a kind of trying to slavishly recreate what's

846
00:55:03,756 --> 00:55:06,516
Speaker 3: gone before, but trying to keep yeah, like you say,

847
00:55:06,556 --> 00:55:11,836
Speaker 3: this sort of emotional and narrative beats of the show

848
00:55:11,996 --> 00:55:14,236
Speaker 3: going while still trying to actually honor that music.

849
00:55:14,316 --> 00:55:19,516
Speaker 2: Was I mean, at that point, Ryan was across the

850
00:55:20,196 --> 00:55:23,356
Speaker 2: who's the execut producer on the show and the writer

851
00:55:23,556 --> 00:55:24,316
Speaker 2: and everything else.

852
00:55:25,876 --> 00:55:27,916
Speaker 5: He's across the whole kind of narrative arc of it.

853
00:55:28,156 --> 00:55:31,356
Speaker 2: So there are things I just didn't know about the

854
00:55:31,396 --> 00:55:33,036
Speaker 2: show that he would be able to kind of lead into,

855
00:55:33,276 --> 00:55:37,876
Speaker 2: so he definitely he basically dumped us in the right

856
00:55:37,996 --> 00:55:39,756
Speaker 2: ballpark and then let us play around.

857
00:55:39,796 --> 00:55:44,236
Speaker 4: And well, you guys mentioned you have a live rendition

858
00:55:44,316 --> 00:55:45,716
Speaker 4: of a song you can do for us.

859
00:55:47,196 --> 00:55:53,716
Speaker 5: Yeah, together for you this afternoon, just undead.

860
00:55:54,316 --> 00:55:55,276
Speaker 4: We've got one.

861
00:55:56,796 --> 00:55:58,356
Speaker 6: We thought you know not.

862
00:55:58,876 --> 00:56:02,956
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't play on the session, so now you

863
00:56:02,996 --> 00:56:03,956
Speaker 2: get exposed to my.

864
00:56:06,236 --> 00:56:08,036
Speaker 5: One a little bit.

865
00:56:08,436 --> 00:56:09,196
Speaker 4: What are you guys going to do?

866
00:56:09,316 --> 00:56:13,676
Speaker 3: They do the old Gershman standard, Oh Lady Bigot, which

867
00:56:13,716 --> 00:56:17,716
Speaker 3: I believe is from a musical. I'm not sure, some

868
00:56:18,116 --> 00:56:19,436
Speaker 3: long forgotten Broadway show.

869
00:56:20,596 --> 00:56:21,516
Speaker 5: Let's see what happens.

870
00:56:21,596 --> 00:56:27,356
Speaker 3: Okay, please, I won two, I want two three, four.

871
00:57:46,276 --> 00:59:04,076
Speaker 13: Way way.

872
00:58:45,636 --> 00:59:23,796
Speaker 9: Don Nay.

873
00:59:17,876 --> 00:59:20,756
Speaker 4: Bescalal and ed, thank you so much, and music's beautiful.

874
00:59:21,596 --> 00:59:22,356
Speaker 5: Thank you, Justin