WEBVTT - Greg Sargent, Caroline Kitchener & Stephen Richer

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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<v Speaker 1>where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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<v Speaker 1>today's best minds, and Donald Trump has been booted off

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg's Billionaire's list. We have such a great show for

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<v Speaker 1>you today. The Washington Post Caroline Kitchener tells us about

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<v Speaker 1>the disinformation around women's reproductive health. Then we'll talk to

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<v Speaker 1>Maracoba County, Arizona reporter and Republican Stephen Richer about his

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<v Speaker 1>defamation suit with not Arizona Governor Carrie Lake. But first

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<v Speaker 1>we have the New Republics Greg Sergeant. Welcome back to

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<v Speaker 1>Fast Politics. New Republics, Greg Sergeant.

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<v Speaker 2>Great to be here, as always, Molly, such.

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<v Speaker 1>A weird time in American life. Right now? Should we

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<v Speaker 1>start by talking about the Republicans in the House. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean yesterday what they kept failing at rules vote.

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<v Speaker 1>What happened here is that Kevin McCarthy put Maga on

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<v Speaker 1>the rules and turns out that Maga is not so

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<v Speaker 1>good on the rules committee.

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<v Speaker 2>Huh, Yeah, they're really not. Here's what I keep wondering though,

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<v Speaker 2>And tell me if you agree with me. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>find a lot of takers for this right and I

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<v Speaker 2>get trolled whenever.

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<v Speaker 1>I say it even better.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, right, It seems to me that Mike Johnson wants

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<v Speaker 2>to hold a vote on the Ukraine eight.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, I think so you do.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, great, I'm not entirely alone on this then, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>a number of things right. One, there are significant powerful

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<v Speaker 2>Republicans in the House who want it, like these committee

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<v Speaker 2>chairs Mike Turner, people like that, right, And these are

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<v Speaker 2>major players. They're not maga noisemakers. So we don't talk

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<v Speaker 2>about them ever. We only talk about Marjorie Taylor Green

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<v Speaker 2>and Matt Gates. And I don't know why that's the

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<v Speaker 2>only thing we'd ever talk about. But so, like these

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<v Speaker 2>committee chairs want this vote, Mike Johnson is talking to

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<v Speaker 2>world leaders seemingly pretty regularly, and they're telling him all

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<v Speaker 2>all of them are telling the same story, which is

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<v Speaker 2>that if we don't do this, we're in much more

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<v Speaker 2>trouble later. Right, Mike Johnson has a bit of a

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<v Speaker 2>Reagan night past as opposed to a mega kind of

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<v Speaker 2>the inclination. Seems to me he is a Christian nationalist

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<v Speaker 2>and he's willing to endorse great replacement theory. But like

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<v Speaker 2>on national security and foreign policy, he's much more in

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<v Speaker 2>the Reagan nite mold. And then right, he's got the

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<v Speaker 2>good intelligence too, so he's got the top intel people

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<v Speaker 2>telling him what the real deal is there, and you

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<v Speaker 2>got to think the stuff weighs on him. And it

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<v Speaker 2>looks to me like it is.

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<v Speaker 1>It's reauthorizing a rule that allows the American government to

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<v Speaker 1>wiretap calls of non citizens without a warrant, basically, right,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, that's what it is. And this was a

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<v Speaker 1>Republican idea, right as part of the Patriot Act, or

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<v Speaker 1>at least it came about during that period when America

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to have more of a you know, in arsenal

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<v Speaker 1>when it comes to prosecute and collecting information on our

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<v Speaker 1>foreign adversary. So it's a republican idea like the idea

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<v Speaker 1>that Mike Johnson is for. This would make more sense.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's just recently that MAGA has decided that

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<v Speaker 1>they don't, you know whatever, they're not so interested in

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<v Speaker 1>foreign intervention maybe though who even knows what they really

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<v Speaker 1>believe in. But what I think is interesting is like

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<v Speaker 1>when Johnson, he was remembering, he was like a low

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<v Speaker 1>ranking Republican, but once he was sort of given the information,

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<v Speaker 1>and once he went into leadership, he sort of understood

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<v Speaker 1>why it was so important.

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<v Speaker 2>Right. I want to pick up on something you said there,

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<v Speaker 2>which is whether they're really opposed to foreign intervention, because

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like it's an important subject. You've probably noticed that,

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<v Speaker 2>like a lot of news accounts call mega isolations, they

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<v Speaker 2>called Trump isolationist, right, and I just I don't think

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<v Speaker 2>that's what they are.

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<v Speaker 1>No. I just don't take them at their word for anything.

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<v Speaker 1>I just want to fact check for one second. It's

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<v Speaker 1>called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, and it's not part

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<v Speaker 1>of the Patriot Act. I was wrong. It was enacted

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<v Speaker 1>in the year of my birth, nineteen seventy eight, and

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<v Speaker 1>the legislation was a congressional response to exposure during multiple

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<v Speaker 1>committee hearings of previous abuses of US persons privacy rights. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>so it actually is not part of the Patriot Act.

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<v Speaker 1>I was wrong, continues right.

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<v Speaker 2>No, No, absolutely right. We shouldn't take them at their word.

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<v Speaker 2>I think what's going on. I actually did a podcast

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<v Speaker 2>with Julia Yaffi about this, and she was just so

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<v Speaker 2>eloquent about it. They support the idea of Putin style government, right,

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<v Speaker 2>They oppose Ukrainian democracy. They want Putin to win. I

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't attribute that sentiment to all of them, right, I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's complicated, and it's a little shifty and it's

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<v Speaker 2>a little murky, but right, someone like Marjorie Taylor Green

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<v Speaker 2>I think has a genuine ideological affinity with Putin style governance,

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<v Speaker 2>White Christian nationalist strong man rule, all about crushing the woke,

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<v Speaker 2>the secular liberals, right, all about kind of crushing Western

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<v Speaker 2>liberal democracy wherever possible they want. They see a Putin

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<v Speaker 2>victory as a victory for their kind of access of autocracy.

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<v Speaker 2>That it really dovetails very directly with their sense of

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<v Speaker 2>what they'd like to do here domestically. Right, So Trump

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<v Speaker 2>admires Putin. We all know that. What's funny to me, though,

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<v Speaker 2>is like Trump isn't exactly where Marjorie Taylor Green is

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<v Speaker 2>on Putin or JD. Vans, who's also in the Marjorie

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<v Speaker 2>Taylor Green camp. I think for Trump, what he admires

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<v Speaker 2>is the strongman dictator part of Putin. He probably doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>care so much about the crushing of the LGBTQ and

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<v Speaker 2>woke and all that, Whereas Marjorie Taylor Green and Jade

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<v Speaker 2>Events probably wants something like theocratic rule here and see

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<v Speaker 2>strongman rule as the way to get it. Trump doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>really care about that. But they kind of are in

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<v Speaker 2>alliance on this, right, they're all kind of weirdly vaguely

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<v Speaker 2>pro putin. And that's not isolationism, it's side with an

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<v Speaker 2>access of autocrats out there.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Juliaffi had this incredible scoop right where Michael McCall,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, high ranking chair in Congress Republican. He comes

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<v Speaker 1>out and says, Republicans are absolutely repeating Russian propaganda. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>this is wild.

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<v Speaker 2>It absolutely is. It's absolutely crazy. And what he means,

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<v Speaker 2>I think, is he means to rebut this idea that

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<v Speaker 2>there are kind of these isolationists who just simply don't

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<v Speaker 2>want to spend our blood and treasure abroad, right, which

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<v Speaker 2>makes it sound so tame and so admirable. Right, they're

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<v Speaker 2>just isolationists. They're anti war, they're not right, they're not Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean, that's what he means. He's

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<v Speaker 2>essentially saying what Julia Yaffi said on the podcast and

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<v Speaker 2>what we're saying now, which is that in some very

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<v Speaker 2>basic sense, a sizable swath of the Republican Conference is

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<v Speaker 2>at best and indifferent to the fate of Ukraine and

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<v Speaker 2>just fine with Putin crushing the Ukraine out of existence,

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<v Speaker 2>and at worst tacitly or maybe even overtly wants Putin

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<v Speaker 2>to win.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. But I think what's interesting to me is here

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<v Speaker 1>we are. Republicans have the House, they have a one

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<v Speaker 1>bowl majority. They have a speaker who was number five

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<v Speaker 1>in leadership. She came into this job and he's getting crushed.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's a really hard job. I Mean one

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<v Speaker 1>of the things I think is, like when you think

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<v Speaker 1>about people didn't like Nancy Pelosi, they had complaints about

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<v Speaker 1>Nancy Pelosi, whatever, whatever, But like you really see, after

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<v Speaker 1>we had Nancy Pelosi and then Republicans won the House,

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<v Speaker 1>we had Kevin McCarthy and now we have Mike Johnson,

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<v Speaker 1>and both of them show it's actually a pretty hard job.

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<v Speaker 2>It really is. And Nancy Pelosi is really good at

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<v Speaker 2>the job too. I mean I always come back to this,

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<v Speaker 2>but she essentially presided over two impeachments of Trump, right,

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<v Speaker 2>which has never happened. Yeah, And I think if I'm right,

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<v Speaker 2>she lost a grand total of three votes among Democrats

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<v Speaker 2>on two impeachments. That's some pretty impressive party unity right there.

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<v Speaker 2>And right, like on social people always black Pelosi as

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<v Speaker 2>neoliberal or democratic establishment. She focuses too much on kitchen

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<v Speaker 2>table issues. But like, winning House seats in some of

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<v Speaker 2>these swing districts is hard, right, Yeah, And under her,

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<v Speaker 2>they took the House in two thousand and six and

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<v Speaker 2>again in twenty eighteen. Now they lost it, but by

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<v Speaker 2>a far smaller margin than we expected. I think Mike

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<v Speaker 2>Johnson maywell just kind of lose the House in his

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<v Speaker 2>first crack at this if he's even there at the

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<v Speaker 2>end of this year.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, I mean, he could lose the House before the

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<v Speaker 1>actual election, which is not you know, it's unlikely, but

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<v Speaker 1>not impossible.

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<v Speaker 2>It's basically gone, right. I think one interesting way to

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<v Speaker 2>think about this is that they don't really have a

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<v Speaker 2>garning majority, right yeah, So what is the Martian now too?

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<v Speaker 1>One?

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<v Speaker 2>It's down to one, right, it's down to one now,

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<v Speaker 2>And so right there just simply is not a group

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<v Speaker 2>of Republicans who are united in any sense and who

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<v Speaker 2>also constitute a majority of the House.

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<v Speaker 1>Now and one of the things like I'm struck by

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<v Speaker 1>when we talk about Nancy Pelosi is you know, she

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<v Speaker 1>knew that the House is about getting re elected. So

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<v Speaker 1>if you were a Democrat in a swing state, in

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<v Speaker 1>a swingy district, she would really make sure that you

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<v Speaker 1>didn't have to vote against your interests, right, you didn't

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<v Speaker 1>have to do something that would mess you up. In

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<v Speaker 1>two years now we have these Republicans, these House Republicans

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<v Speaker 1>in New York, Mike Lawler, Nick Lloda, and in California

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<v Speaker 1>who are in Biden districts desperately trying to hold onto

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<v Speaker 1>their seats. As someone like Mike Lawler has had to

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<v Speaker 1>vote and Nick Kloda too, voted for two impeachments, one

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<v Speaker 1>the first impeachment of a member of the in one

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<v Speaker 1>hundred and sixty years, right.

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<v Speaker 2>And they didn't want to vote for that. They really

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<v Speaker 2>didn't know.

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<v Speaker 1>This week we saw Mike Lawler on CNN talking to

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<v Speaker 1>Kayln Collins and she said, well did you vote? She said,

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<v Speaker 1>who'd you vote for in the primary? And he said,

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<v Speaker 1>I voted for Trump? Right, So you have a party

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<v Speaker 1>nominee who, by voting for him, you can no longer

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<v Speaker 1>make the case that you are a moderate.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean it's not allowed right in this party.

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<v Speaker 2>It really goes back to the basic theory of politics

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<v Speaker 2>that Mega and Trump follow, right, which is that you

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<v Speaker 2>can win only with mega, Right. When it really comes

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<v Speaker 2>down to that, that's what they actually believe. Right. And

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<v Speaker 2>so even though we have had a test of this

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<v Speaker 2>in two national elections, right in twenty twenty and twenty

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<v Speaker 2>twenty two, they actually did surprisingly well in the House

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<v Speaker 2>in twenty twenty, right, we all know that story. But

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<v Speaker 2>then in twenty twenty two, they dramatically underperform and a

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<v Speaker 2>bunch of the Mega candidates for statewide office squandered a

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<v Speaker 2>whole swath of winnable races. These were really winnable races, right,

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<v Speaker 2>Like we kind of forget that. But like Arizona Senate,

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<v Speaker 2>Arizona Governor Blake Masters. Yeah, I mean, like everyone made

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<v Speaker 2>fun of Blake Masters, but like he looked to me

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<v Speaker 2>like a pretty good candidate in a lot of ways, right,

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<v Speaker 2>But he really ran on this insane maga message about immigration.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know if you saw any of his ads.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, yes, talk about it, talk about it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's one one of his ads literally has machine

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<v Speaker 2>gun fire at the border. It looked like a video game, right,

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<v Speaker 2>call of duty or something. Yeah, Right, like there's this

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<v Speaker 2>sort of weird maga space where all this stuff is

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<v Speaker 2>real to them. Right, the border is a combat video game, right,

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<v Speaker 2>or you know, there was a I think his opening

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<v Speaker 2>introductory ad, like a two minute spot had him kind

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<v Speaker 2>of running through the desert in some way, like he

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<v Speaker 2>was kind of patrolling it. So they made immigration absolutely

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<v Speaker 2>central to his campaign in a border state in Arizona,

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<v Speaker 2>which is the state where some of the most ridiculously

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<v Speaker 2>hardline anti immigrant policy has been hatched.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>Trump went to Arizona in twenty sixteen to deliver his

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<v Speaker 2>big introductory speech round immigration. It's got a whole history, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and they couldn't win. He lost by what five points? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>And so that it doesn't tell you that you can't

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<v Speaker 2>win with just maga. I don't know what does.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. What I'm struck by is this maga like they

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<v Speaker 1>can't scale. You know, they win these primers, but then

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<v Speaker 1>they can't win the generals.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, look, the funny thing about some of

0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:54.560
<v Speaker 2>these mega can that it says they actually they lack

0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:57.680
<v Speaker 2>what Trump has, right, And this is a dynamic. I

0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:00.319
<v Speaker 2>feel like I don't understand well enough. Maybe you can

0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.480
<v Speaker 2>help me on this, right, So there's nobody, presumably who's

0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:06.920
<v Speaker 2>more magan than Trump. He's Trump, right, He's very maga, right,

0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:11.280
<v Speaker 2>but he does really, really pretty well in Pennsylvania, whereas

0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:15.600
<v Speaker 2>Doug Mastriano does terribly and gets blown out right, And

0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:18.400
<v Speaker 2>so what's the difference there. I think it's that on

0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:22.400
<v Speaker 2>some level, Trump has this kind of charisma and he

0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:26.400
<v Speaker 2>has this capacity to communicate to voters that it's all

0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:30.400
<v Speaker 2>kind of a joke, right when he dabbles in Christian nationalism,

0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:32.760
<v Speaker 2>it's all sort of a little bit of a joke.

0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:36.040
<v Speaker 2>I mean, Trump, he's not a Christian, right look at him.

0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:40.000
<v Speaker 2>And whereas Doug Mastriano looks like a crazy extremist. So

0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:44.280
<v Speaker 2>in a weird way, these guys are more maga than

0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:49.040
<v Speaker 2>Trump without the positives, right, without the charisma, without the

0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:53.240
<v Speaker 2>kind of wink wink, nudge nudge sense that it's all

0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:56.680
<v Speaker 2>a big show. And that's just a weird dynamic to me.

0:13:57.200 --> 0:14:00.679
<v Speaker 1>So what I think it is is two things. One

0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:04.439
<v Speaker 1>of the reasons why Trump won in twenty sixteen, which

0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:07.800
<v Speaker 1>we don't talk about, but is I think really important,

0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:12.240
<v Speaker 1>or is at least very relevant, right, is that Trump

0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:16.400
<v Speaker 1>won because he made a case that you didn't really

0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:19.120
<v Speaker 1>know what he believed in. He had no voting record,

0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:22.360
<v Speaker 1>he had been a Democrat. One of the reasons why

0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:26.520
<v Speaker 1>we see all of these sort of last gasp attempts

0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:31.440
<v Speaker 1>at trying desperately at Republicans trying desperately to pass all

0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:35.720
<v Speaker 1>this weird religious stuff is because they sort of know

0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:40.680
<v Speaker 1>right that their demographic is dead right, like that America

0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:43.280
<v Speaker 1>is not a white Christian nation anymore, and you know,

0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:45.480
<v Speaker 1>people aren't going to church the same way. There is

0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:50.400
<v Speaker 1>much more, you know, diversity, it's not you know, they're worried.

0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:52.720
<v Speaker 1>I mean, this is the last gasp against a multi

0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:56.080
<v Speaker 1>racial democracy. So what I think worked for Trump was

0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:58.320
<v Speaker 1>he was very famous. A lot of people knew who

0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:00.320
<v Speaker 1>he was, but nobody really knew what he was going

0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:02.840
<v Speaker 1>to do. It was sort of a normalcy bias. He

0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:06.280
<v Speaker 1>can't possibly be that crazy. He's saying all this crazy stuff,

0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:09.040
<v Speaker 1>but you know, he's a rich guy, so he's not

0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:11.800
<v Speaker 1>going to do anything crazy. And he obviously he knows

0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:14.320
<v Speaker 1>about the economy, and he's had all these wives, so

0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:16.600
<v Speaker 1>he's you know, and who even knows, you know, he

0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:20.560
<v Speaker 1>had this mistress, you know, so obviously he's not going

0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:23.400
<v Speaker 1>to do all this crazy stuff. So there were people

0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:25.640
<v Speaker 1>who held their nose and voted for him because they

0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:28.240
<v Speaker 1>were like, we want the tax cuts, and besides, it's

0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:32.160
<v Speaker 1>more business as usual. And I think after twenty sixteen,

0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:33.800
<v Speaker 1>you could never make that case again.

0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:37.800
<v Speaker 2>It's really interesting. We had Sarah Longwell on the podcast too,

0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:40.160
<v Speaker 2>and folks check out our podcast, man, it's called The

0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:43.120
<v Speaker 2>Daily Blast that's in the New Republic, and she said,

0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.920
<v Speaker 2>he still codes as moderate on abortion and on a

0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:50.000
<v Speaker 2>bunch of the stuff. And here's the supreme irony of

0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:52.880
<v Speaker 2>it that really kind of confirms what you're talking about.

0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:57.840
<v Speaker 2>He codes as moderate because he's a sleazy, nasty, philandering,

0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:01.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, amoral piece of you know what, right, right,

0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:05.000
<v Speaker 2>That's why he codes moderate. People think, oh, he probably

0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:09.040
<v Speaker 2>paid for ten abortions himself, so he can't possibly be

0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:09.880
<v Speaker 2>anti abortion.

0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:10.520
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:15.040
<v Speaker 2>Meanwhile, he's saying to evangelical voters, boasting of creating the

0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:17.880
<v Speaker 2>Supreme Court that overturned a fifty year right.

0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:20.880
<v Speaker 1>And I mean, I think he thinks that those evangelical

0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:23.960
<v Speaker 1>voters won't abandon him, and so now he's trying to

0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:27.040
<v Speaker 1>pivot to the center. You know, that abortion answer was

0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:28.480
<v Speaker 1>him trying to pivot to the center.

0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:33.320
<v Speaker 2>So good and really like for Arizona Republicans to kill

0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:36.960
<v Speaker 2>an effort to repeal the eighteen sixty four law. I mean,

0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:41.000
<v Speaker 2>by the way, right, there was so much predulous puntry

0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:44.440
<v Speaker 2>and journalism saying that Trump has managed to you know,

0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:48.720
<v Speaker 2>pick the law pieces again right when you're staying Rix,

0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:51.680
<v Speaker 2>when he put out that video saying I forget exactly

0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:54.760
<v Speaker 2>the phrase, but right the video essentially said he believed

0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:56.920
<v Speaker 2>it should be left to the states and all that

0:16:57.280 --> 0:16:59.640
<v Speaker 2>like a lot of I think everybody pounced on the

0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:03.040
<v Speaker 2>New York Times for taking that at face value. And

0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:08.160
<v Speaker 2>now immediately after that, right immediately after journalists and pundits

0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:12.080
<v Speaker 2>said Trump has shown that there's a moderate position, what

0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:15.320
<v Speaker 2>actually got confirmed is that Trump is going to have

0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:19.640
<v Speaker 2>to answer for every extremist lurch that happens in the States.

0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:24.159
<v Speaker 1>Now, now, Greg, thank you so much, really appreciate you

0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:25.480
<v Speaker 1>always fun.

0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:25.919
<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:33.520
<v Speaker 1>Mollie Spring is here and I bet you are trying

0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:36.840
<v Speaker 1>to look fashionable. So why not pick up some fashionable

0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:41.600
<v Speaker 1>all new Fast Politics merchandise. We just opened a news

0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:46.520
<v Speaker 1>store with all new designs just for you. Get t shirts, hoodies, hats,

0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:52.160
<v Speaker 1>and top bags to grab some head to Fastpolitics dot com.

0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:56.760
<v Speaker 1>Caroline Kitchener is a national reporter covering abortion at the

0:17:56.880 --> 0:18:01.960
<v Speaker 1>Washington Post. Welcome to Fast Power Politics, Caroline.

0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:03.280
<v Speaker 3>Thank you so much, Molly, thanks for having me.

0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:06.480
<v Speaker 1>You write about abortion for the Washington Post. I think

0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:09.879
<v Speaker 1>of you as like the go to, quietly doing the

0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:14.440
<v Speaker 1>reporting that the rest of us need to understand what

0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:18.120
<v Speaker 1>the landscape looks like and to base our little opinion

0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:22.520
<v Speaker 1>pieces on. Today, you have a new story which I

0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:25.560
<v Speaker 1>feel like it's like the marriage of the two biggest

0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:31.560
<v Speaker 1>crisises of right now right, which are disinformation and abortion.

0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:33.439
<v Speaker 1>So talk to us about that story.

0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:35.959
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, those are the story that I've wanted to do

0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:39.440
<v Speaker 3>for over a year. I just kept talking to women

0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:43.679
<v Speaker 3>in states with abortion bands. They were ordering pills online

0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:46.399
<v Speaker 3>or kind of getting them in other ways, figuring out

0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:50.800
<v Speaker 3>however they could ways to navigate around the bands, but

0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:54.040
<v Speaker 3>they were having really difficult experiences just you know, not

0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:57.480
<v Speaker 3>obviously we know that abortion pills are safe, but it

0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:01.480
<v Speaker 3>can be scary when you're alone, you're in a state

0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:04.920
<v Speaker 3>where it's illegal, you feel like you're breaking the law.

0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:07.159
<v Speaker 3>Even though I think it's important to say, you know,

0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:10.800
<v Speaker 3>under these bands, the women taking the pills themselves can't

0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:13.719
<v Speaker 3>be prosecuted. They don't know what to expect, and they

0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:17.520
<v Speaker 3>don't know who to call. That, I would say was

0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:20.119
<v Speaker 3>the thing that I heard from every single person that

0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:22.640
<v Speaker 3>I talked to, just I didn't know who to call.

0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:25.399
<v Speaker 3>I didn't know who to talk to, because you know,

0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:28.240
<v Speaker 3>they were afraid that if they tried to reach out

0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:30.480
<v Speaker 3>to a doctor or you know, even went to the

0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:33.520
<v Speaker 3>er just to make sure that everything was okay, that

0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:34.440
<v Speaker 3>they would be arrested.

0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:39.640
<v Speaker 1>Right. What I think is interesting about the story is

0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:44.159
<v Speaker 1>there is a real concerted effort on the right from

0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:50.200
<v Speaker 1>these anti choice groups to undermine the information that these

0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:53.080
<v Speaker 1>women are getting. So absolutely explained to us what that

0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:53.560
<v Speaker 1>looks like.

0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:57.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean I spoke with a lot of people

0:19:57.080 --> 0:20:02.919
<v Speaker 3>that described frantically googling trying to figure out what was

0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:05.960
<v Speaker 3>safe and what was okay, because you know, they would

0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:11.639
<v Speaker 3>often run into, you know, anti abortion information that would

0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:14.679
<v Speaker 3>say that the pills were highly dangerous or even deadly,

0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:20.879
<v Speaker 3>and that you know, obviously understandably is extremely scary. You know,

0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:25.240
<v Speaker 3>we know that those are false claims, but they're very widespread,

0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:29.040
<v Speaker 3>and some of these women too, in these states with

0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:32.520
<v Speaker 3>bands now the only place you know, many of them said,

0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:35.280
<v Speaker 3>I just wanted to go and talk to somebody in person,

0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:37.280
<v Speaker 3>Like I just wanted to like, you know, before I

0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:39.600
<v Speaker 3>took these pills, I just wanted to talk to somebody.

0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:43.040
<v Speaker 3>And often the only place to go in these states

0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:46.160
<v Speaker 3>now is crisis pregnancy centers, which are you know, anti

0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:50.359
<v Speaker 3>abortion centers that really are designed to dissuade women from

0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:54.080
<v Speaker 3>having abortions. You know, in the first place, let's.

0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:57.400
<v Speaker 1>Do two seconds on what a crisis pregnancy center is.

0:20:57.560 --> 0:21:02.000
<v Speaker 1>Because they're often funded by relig groups, right, they tend.

0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:05.320
<v Speaker 3>They very often are have some sort of religious affiliation.

0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:08.399
<v Speaker 1>They advertise themselves though, as a place to get a

0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:12.040
<v Speaker 1>pregnancy test and talk about your options. So talk about

0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:15.000
<v Speaker 1>sort of how they advertise themselves versus what they are.

0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:17.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean, I think that it's sort of hard

0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:20.440
<v Speaker 3>to paint them all with a broad brush because oftentimes

0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:24.000
<v Speaker 3>there are sort of these much more institutionalized ones, but

0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:25.760
<v Speaker 3>then there's also sort of lots of kind of mom

0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:27.879
<v Speaker 3>and pops, smaller ministry kind of things.

0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:31.280
<v Speaker 1>Right, yet another thing the federal government does not regulate.

0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:34.200
<v Speaker 3>Right, many of these ones that are more i would say,

0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:38.800
<v Speaker 3>more sophisticated and more sort of professionalized, they have recognized

0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:42.800
<v Speaker 3>that the sort of message of free ultrasounds, free pregnancy

0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:46.640
<v Speaker 3>tests is very appealing to people, so they'll often put

0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:50.440
<v Speaker 3>that on a big sign. They definitely do a lot of.

0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:55.919
<v Speaker 1>Google Search algorithm. Exactly what Carolyn's talking about is this

0:21:56.040 --> 0:22:00.639
<v Speaker 1>idea that they do a Google SEO, so they come

0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:03.399
<v Speaker 1>up in these searches in the Google search.

0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:06.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I can explain that a little bit. So oftentimes

0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:09.880
<v Speaker 3>these places like work with you know, somebody that can

0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:14.119
<v Speaker 3>manipulate search and make sure that for example, if somebody

0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:17.840
<v Speaker 3>in Texas types in, you know, need abortion Texas now

0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:20.240
<v Speaker 3>something like that, then you know, the first thing that

0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:23.280
<v Speaker 3>would come up would be the Crisis Pregnancy Center with

0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:27.800
<v Speaker 3>you know, information about you know, get your abortion consultation.

0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:30.639
<v Speaker 3>That's typically a word that they use, or you know,

0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:32.320
<v Speaker 3>your free ultrasound or something like that.

0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:34.679
<v Speaker 1>A lot of what I know about this is from

0:22:35.160 --> 0:22:39.160
<v Speaker 1>Robin Marty ran an abortion clinic in the state of Alabama,

0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:42.080
<v Speaker 1>and she talked about how, you know, now she does

0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:46.119
<v Speaker 1>STIs treatment and you know that kind of thing, but

0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:50.080
<v Speaker 1>that these centers really just are trying to get you

0:22:50.119 --> 0:22:52.800
<v Speaker 1>to not have an abortion. Yeah, so what happens to

0:22:52.840 --> 0:22:56.800
<v Speaker 1>these women they want to take the pill, the abortion pill.

0:22:57.080 --> 0:22:59.480
<v Speaker 1>They get it, and then they can't get good information

0:22:59.520 --> 0:23:00.960
<v Speaker 1>about it, or or they can't get it.

0:23:01.280 --> 0:23:03.159
<v Speaker 3>The people that I talked to for the story, they

0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:05.439
<v Speaker 3>were able to get it. But the word that I

0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:07.480
<v Speaker 3>heard all the time was like, is this legit? Like

0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:08.879
<v Speaker 3>how do I know if this is legit?

0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:09.240
<v Speaker 2>Right?

0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:12.159
<v Speaker 3>Because if you're in a state with a band, you know,

0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:15.520
<v Speaker 3>you're you know that there's this law, and so you know,

0:23:15.560 --> 0:23:17.360
<v Speaker 3>even if you go online and you can find these

0:23:17.359 --> 0:23:19.240
<v Speaker 3>places that say that they're going to send it to you,

0:23:19.680 --> 0:23:22.239
<v Speaker 3>it feels a little sketchy, right, Like, even if we know,

0:23:22.280 --> 0:23:25.040
<v Speaker 3>we know that certain of these organizations they're very you know,

0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:27.560
<v Speaker 3>they are very legitimate, and they are doing this in

0:23:27.600 --> 0:23:31.160
<v Speaker 3>like really big numbers. But if you are that young

0:23:31.200 --> 0:23:35.040
<v Speaker 3>woman somewhere on your own googling around, you know, you

0:23:35.080 --> 0:23:37.080
<v Speaker 3>can see how it would feel scary.

0:23:37.520 --> 0:23:40.600
<v Speaker 1>One of the things that I'm struck by as we

0:23:40.680 --> 0:23:44.879
<v Speaker 1>talk about this is this idea that these pills are

0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:49.320
<v Speaker 1>much safer than the right wants us to believe. And

0:23:49.359 --> 0:23:52.080
<v Speaker 1>they've been working really hard to work the rafts. Mattha

0:23:52.080 --> 0:23:55.240
<v Speaker 1>pristone has been available in this country since two thousand.

0:23:55.440 --> 0:23:58.800
<v Speaker 1>It was available in France since nineteen eighty five.

0:23:59.080 --> 0:24:02.000
<v Speaker 3>Right, this is not new, it's you know, over two

0:24:02.080 --> 0:24:05.680
<v Speaker 3>decades now that this has been approved by the FDA,

0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:09.040
<v Speaker 3>And you know, there is just no question from any

0:24:09.280 --> 0:24:13.400
<v Speaker 3>leading medical association or any you know, major study that

0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:16.360
<v Speaker 3>these pills are extremely safe. And I think it's important

0:24:16.400 --> 0:24:19.199
<v Speaker 3>to say too that they are safe even when taken

0:24:19.280 --> 0:24:22.160
<v Speaker 3>somewhat independently. And there have been a lot of really

0:24:22.160 --> 0:24:25.320
<v Speaker 3>good recent studies that show that even if you're not

0:24:25.480 --> 0:24:28.200
<v Speaker 3>having a face to face with a doctor to get them,

0:24:28.400 --> 0:24:31.399
<v Speaker 3>they're still extremely safe. The safety numbers don't really change there.

0:24:31.560 --> 0:24:34.360
<v Speaker 3>So what these women are doing, you know, when they

0:24:34.440 --> 0:24:37.800
<v Speaker 3>order the pills online, it is safe, but they don't

0:24:37.840 --> 0:24:40.000
<v Speaker 3>necessarily know that or feel that.

0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:43.640
<v Speaker 1>One of the points in the article is that if

0:24:43.680 --> 0:24:47.439
<v Speaker 1>you are in a state where abortion is illegal, which

0:24:47.480 --> 0:24:50.400
<v Speaker 1>means which more than a third of all American women are,

0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:55.080
<v Speaker 1>if you take the pills, there's some anxiety about going

0:24:55.480 --> 0:24:58.199
<v Speaker 1>into a hospital. So talk to us about that.

0:24:58.640 --> 0:25:01.679
<v Speaker 3>One thing that studies have shown is that, you know,

0:25:01.760 --> 0:25:06.399
<v Speaker 3>the serious adverse events numbers are just tiny, tiny, tiny

0:25:06.400 --> 0:25:08.800
<v Speaker 3>for abortion pills. It's like less than one percent a

0:25:08.920 --> 0:25:11.800
<v Speaker 3>larger abortion, not a huge number, but typically between the

0:25:12.160 --> 0:25:15.040
<v Speaker 3>studies range from one point three percent to eight percent

0:25:15.119 --> 0:25:17.240
<v Speaker 3>of people that take abortion pills.

0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:17.879
<v Speaker 4>Go to the er.

0:25:18.080 --> 0:25:20.800
<v Speaker 3>And you know, that is a number. Those are numbers

0:25:20.840 --> 0:25:23.919
<v Speaker 3>that have been really co opted by the anti abortion

0:25:24.040 --> 0:25:26.200
<v Speaker 3>groups to say, look, look, how many people are going

0:25:26.240 --> 0:25:29.280
<v Speaker 3>to the er. But the really important context for those

0:25:29.359 --> 0:25:32.440
<v Speaker 3>visits is that women are often going for a gut.

0:25:32.320 --> 0:25:35.440
<v Speaker 1>Check because it's scary.

0:25:34.440 --> 0:25:36.640
<v Speaker 3>Like you're bleeding a lot, right, You're cramping a lot,

0:25:36.880 --> 0:25:40.360
<v Speaker 3>and it's really painful, and you don't know what's normal,

0:25:40.520 --> 0:25:42.560
<v Speaker 3>and so you want to go somewhere and just make

0:25:42.600 --> 0:25:44.879
<v Speaker 3>sure that everything is okay. I think that's like a

0:25:45.040 --> 0:25:48.280
<v Speaker 3>very sort of natural human instinct. But when you're in

0:25:48.320 --> 0:25:51.600
<v Speaker 3>a state with a ban, even though these laws are

0:25:51.640 --> 0:25:55.200
<v Speaker 3>not written to allow prosecutors to go after the women

0:25:55.240 --> 0:25:57.399
<v Speaker 3>that are taking the pills, that's the sort of a

0:25:57.520 --> 0:26:00.360
<v Speaker 3>very weird thing to understand, and it's a very that's

0:26:00.480 --> 0:26:03.119
<v Speaker 3>like really an intricacy of the law. And you know,

0:26:03.119 --> 0:26:04.840
<v Speaker 3>I'm only of all the women that I talked to

0:26:04.880 --> 0:26:08.359
<v Speaker 3>for this story, only one of them understood that under

0:26:08.400 --> 0:26:11.960
<v Speaker 3>the band sheep personally could not be prosecuted. Everybody just

0:26:12.000 --> 0:26:15.920
<v Speaker 3>assumes that they can be, and so they are terrified

0:26:15.920 --> 0:26:16.679
<v Speaker 3>to go to the er.

0:26:17.000 --> 0:26:19.960
<v Speaker 1>And Trump has said that he believes there should be

0:26:20.000 --> 0:26:26.560
<v Speaker 1>some form of prosecution for women who have abortion. I mean,

0:26:26.720 --> 0:26:29.000
<v Speaker 1>then he walked it back, but you know, I was

0:26:29.240 --> 0:26:31.879
<v Speaker 1>on with Chris Matthews and we were talking about that,

0:26:32.040 --> 0:26:35.520
<v Speaker 1>so I mean he did say it, so you understand

0:26:35.920 --> 0:26:39.000
<v Speaker 1>why this does not exist in a vacuum, right.

0:26:39.080 --> 0:26:41.399
<v Speaker 3>And I think it's also important to note that like

0:26:41.520 --> 0:26:44.400
<v Speaker 3>women who have taken pills and self managed their own abortions,

0:26:44.400 --> 0:26:47.320
<v Speaker 3>they have been charged under other laws in the past

0:26:47.440 --> 0:26:51.040
<v Speaker 3>other than abortion bands, like laws around disposed little feel

0:26:51.119 --> 0:26:54.040
<v Speaker 3>remains and things like that, especially when they're later in pregnancy.

0:26:54.200 --> 0:26:58.320
<v Speaker 3>So it's not like there's no legal risk at all.

0:26:58.400 --> 0:27:02.080
<v Speaker 3>Their right to worry obviously a very difficult situation to

0:27:02.119 --> 0:27:03.040
<v Speaker 3>be in well.

0:27:03.080 --> 0:27:07.440
<v Speaker 1>And I also think when you talk about abortion, this

0:27:07.600 --> 0:27:11.960
<v Speaker 1>issue really just collide with the with the misinformation and

0:27:12.080 --> 0:27:16.040
<v Speaker 1>disinformation ecosystem that we're living in right now. And it

0:27:16.160 --> 0:27:19.000
<v Speaker 1>is also like a personal thing, you know, it's not

0:27:19.280 --> 0:27:22.200
<v Speaker 1>like something you want a crowdsource on Facebook exactly.

0:27:22.320 --> 0:27:23.320
<v Speaker 2>It's such a good point.

0:27:23.200 --> 0:27:26.800
<v Speaker 1>And it's like just not that easy to bring it up.

0:27:26.880 --> 0:27:29.200
<v Speaker 3>One of the women that I talked about, like she said, man,

0:27:29.240 --> 0:27:32.199
<v Speaker 3>I just wish I had a group chat, Like I

0:27:32.240 --> 0:27:34.280
<v Speaker 3>just wish I could talk to people about this in

0:27:34.320 --> 0:27:37.159
<v Speaker 3>a group chat with friend, but I can't if nobody

0:27:37.160 --> 0:27:37.479
<v Speaker 3>can know.

0:27:37.760 --> 0:27:39.520
<v Speaker 1>One of the things in the article that you talk

0:27:39.560 --> 0:27:43.359
<v Speaker 1>about is that if you go to a hospital and

0:27:43.400 --> 0:27:48.000
<v Speaker 1>you've self managed an abortion, doctors cannot tell if you

0:27:48.080 --> 0:27:51.159
<v Speaker 1>are having a miscarriage or self managed abortion. Will you

0:27:51.200 --> 0:27:51.800
<v Speaker 1>talk about that?

0:27:52.240 --> 0:27:55.439
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that is something that all of the hotlines and

0:27:55.480 --> 0:27:58.560
<v Speaker 3>different abortion rights groups are telling women because that's not

0:27:58.680 --> 0:28:01.280
<v Speaker 3>I think something that isn't too to know. But you know,

0:28:01.320 --> 0:28:04.920
<v Speaker 3>if you present with the bleeding and cramping of a

0:28:05.000 --> 0:28:08.960
<v Speaker 3>medication abortion, unless you took the pills vaginally, which is

0:28:09.000 --> 0:28:10.920
<v Speaker 3>sort of a more rare way to take them, there

0:28:11.000 --> 0:28:13.480
<v Speaker 3>is no way for a doctor to know whether you

0:28:13.640 --> 0:28:16.160
<v Speaker 3>miscarried or whether you had a medication abortion. So folks

0:28:16.200 --> 0:28:19.040
<v Speaker 3>are telling women to say, you know, just say I

0:28:19.080 --> 0:28:21.040
<v Speaker 3>had a miscarriage, I just started bleeding, I don't really

0:28:21.040 --> 0:28:23.080
<v Speaker 3>know what's going on, and then not say anything else.

0:28:23.480 --> 0:28:26.080
<v Speaker 1>So this is not in the article, but since you

0:28:26.359 --> 0:28:30.359
<v Speaker 1>are really in it, I'm wondering if you could talk

0:28:30.440 --> 0:28:34.160
<v Speaker 1>about this Rise Louisiana Report. I'm sure you read it. Too.

0:28:34.359 --> 0:28:37.080
<v Speaker 1>I Mean, what's so interesting is women's health. You know,

0:28:37.160 --> 0:28:40.200
<v Speaker 1>we don't get so much research like men's health. Right.

0:28:40.400 --> 0:28:43.360
<v Speaker 1>Imagine if men had to take a pill it caused

0:28:43.400 --> 0:28:46.880
<v Speaker 1>bleeding and is sometimes painful, like, they would never.

0:28:46.880 --> 0:28:49.840
<v Speaker 3>You know, there would be a better way.

0:28:49.080 --> 0:28:51.560
<v Speaker 1>Right exactly, they'd be like, no, no, just come into

0:28:51.600 --> 0:28:55.280
<v Speaker 1>this ATM and we'll you know. So I'm wondering. Like

0:28:55.600 --> 0:28:58.720
<v Speaker 1>one of the things a Rise Louisiana report talked about

0:28:58.840 --> 0:29:02.480
<v Speaker 1>and a thing I've heard on totally from obgyns is

0:29:02.600 --> 0:29:10.240
<v Speaker 1>the incredible anxiety about treating in the first trimester from doctors.

0:29:10.600 --> 0:29:13.920
<v Speaker 1>Are you hearing that on the ground that there's just

0:29:14.240 --> 0:29:17.640
<v Speaker 1>like the doctors have really changed the way they treat

0:29:17.720 --> 0:29:20.680
<v Speaker 1>pregnant women in these stays. If you're seeing that or

0:29:20.760 --> 0:29:23.680
<v Speaker 1>you're hearing that, or maybe you're not, but I'm just curious.

0:29:23.920 --> 0:29:27.680
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, they're terrified. It just remains really unclear. I mean,

0:29:27.720 --> 0:29:29.960
<v Speaker 3>just look at the changing laws, like you know, we are,

0:29:30.480 --> 0:29:35.000
<v Speaker 3>you know, two years out from this Dobbs ruling almost

0:29:35.200 --> 0:29:38.040
<v Speaker 3>and things are not settled like we you know, we

0:29:38.120 --> 0:29:40.880
<v Speaker 3>have Arizona, we have Florida. We have these big new

0:29:41.000 --> 0:29:45.200
<v Speaker 3>laws taking effect and changing and the landscape is not settled,

0:29:45.320 --> 0:29:48.400
<v Speaker 3>and doctors feel that for sure. I mean, it was

0:29:48.560 --> 0:29:50.640
<v Speaker 3>a couple of months ago I did a story about

0:29:50.840 --> 0:29:54.160
<v Speaker 3>a woman in Texas who was turned away with an

0:29:54.160 --> 0:29:57.600
<v Speaker 3>ectopic pregnancy, which really, I mean, even as much as

0:29:57.640 --> 0:30:00.600
<v Speaker 3>I write about this and talk to people, that really

0:30:00.640 --> 0:30:03.280
<v Speaker 3>shocked me. Because a topic pregnancy.

0:30:03.160 --> 0:30:05.400
<v Speaker 1>Is not going to ever be a baby. You cannot

0:30:05.480 --> 0:30:10.400
<v Speaker 1>physically carry a baby in the fallopian tubes of your womb,

0:30:10.600 --> 0:30:13.880
<v Speaker 1>Like it cannot happen. So there's only one thing that happens,

0:30:13.920 --> 0:30:14.520
<v Speaker 1>which is you not.

0:30:14.880 --> 0:30:17.160
<v Speaker 3>Like that particular word. I feel like it's such a

0:30:17.440 --> 0:30:20.760
<v Speaker 3>has become such a buzzword after the decision, like people,

0:30:21.240 --> 0:30:23.320
<v Speaker 3>you know, that really was sort of the big thing

0:30:23.360 --> 0:30:26.360
<v Speaker 3>that people talked about, like people with ectopic pregnancies, and

0:30:26.360 --> 0:30:29.360
<v Speaker 3>and you saw the conservatives and the anti abortion folks

0:30:29.440 --> 0:30:32.040
<v Speaker 3>say like, oh no, at topics, that's totally fine, that's

0:30:32.080 --> 0:30:34.880
<v Speaker 3>totally fine. And I really thought that, you know, a

0:30:34.960 --> 0:30:38.000
<v Speaker 3>year and a half since the decision, we were in

0:30:38.000 --> 0:30:40.920
<v Speaker 3>a place where like topics would be treated kind of

0:30:40.920 --> 0:30:43.080
<v Speaker 3>no question, Like people just sort of understood that. And

0:30:43.480 --> 0:30:45.120
<v Speaker 3>a lot of doctors have said that to me, like

0:30:45.160 --> 0:30:47.480
<v Speaker 3>oh yeah, like the topics you know, of course, like,

0:30:47.520 --> 0:30:49.120
<v Speaker 3>we know, we know we can treat them, but then

0:30:49.160 --> 0:30:52.400
<v Speaker 3>you do hear these stories still of women getting turned away.

0:30:52.600 --> 0:30:55.400
<v Speaker 3>So it's just not settled yet. And I'm sure that

0:30:55.720 --> 0:30:58.160
<v Speaker 3>it also depends on what the feelings of the doctor

0:30:58.200 --> 0:30:59.680
<v Speaker 3>are on this issue. Right.

0:31:00.040 --> 0:31:03.360
<v Speaker 1>It is so insane to me, like, there is no

0:31:03.480 --> 0:31:06.040
<v Speaker 1>baby in an atopic pregnancy, right, And I mean, what

0:31:06.240 --> 0:31:08.440
<v Speaker 1>happened to that woman in that case?

0:31:08.520 --> 0:31:11.320
<v Speaker 3>What the doctor said is that there is a chance

0:31:11.560 --> 0:31:14.080
<v Speaker 3>that this is not an atopic pregnancy, because it's not

0:31:14.360 --> 0:31:17.560
<v Speaker 3>always so easy so cut and dry to tell when

0:31:17.600 --> 0:31:19.760
<v Speaker 3>it is and when it isn't. But I mean hers

0:31:19.960 --> 0:31:22.600
<v Speaker 3>was I think fairly obvious. So she was turned away

0:31:22.600 --> 0:31:26.600
<v Speaker 3>from the hospital. Later that day, her best friend was

0:31:26.760 --> 0:31:29.120
<v Speaker 3>at an obiqui en appointment. She called her best friend

0:31:29.160 --> 0:31:30.720
<v Speaker 3>and her best friend was like, Hey, do you want

0:31:30.760 --> 0:31:34.320
<v Speaker 3>me to like show the doctor here the picture of

0:31:34.400 --> 0:31:36.880
<v Speaker 3>your pregnancy, and she did. The best friend did, and

0:31:36.920 --> 0:31:38.680
<v Speaker 3>the doctor was like, oh my god, can your friendly

0:31:38.760 --> 0:31:41.880
<v Speaker 3>come in right now? So she did, and that doctor

0:31:42.240 --> 0:31:43.840
<v Speaker 3>was like, I'm going to take you in for emergency

0:31:43.840 --> 0:31:44.520
<v Speaker 3>surgery right.

0:31:44.440 --> 0:31:46.960
<v Speaker 1>Now, yeah, because you can die from this.

0:31:47.520 --> 0:31:50.080
<v Speaker 3>Right, And I just think that shows, like, I mean,

0:31:50.120 --> 0:31:51.880
<v Speaker 3>how scary is it though that it's just kind of

0:31:51.960 --> 0:31:54.600
<v Speaker 3>luck of the draw of who you get, who you see.

0:31:54.800 --> 0:31:57.240
<v Speaker 1>You know, I heard this story anecdotally, so I don't

0:31:57.240 --> 0:31:59.760
<v Speaker 1>want to pass it on because who knows. But you know,

0:32:00.080 --> 0:32:03.200
<v Speaker 1>friend of mine was telling me about a girl in

0:32:03.240 --> 0:32:06.760
<v Speaker 1>a red state where she was having a miscarriage, like

0:32:06.800 --> 0:32:09.840
<v Speaker 1>her numbers were going down, the pregnancy was not holding,

0:32:10.040 --> 0:32:12.440
<v Speaker 1>and the doctor didn't want to tell her because she

0:32:12.480 --> 0:32:17.280
<v Speaker 1>didn't want to perform a DNC, which is so insane, right,

0:32:17.360 --> 0:32:21.120
<v Speaker 1>Like the these aren't even babies. These are people where

0:32:21.160 --> 0:32:23.120
<v Speaker 1>they're not going to have a baby, and they can't

0:32:23.120 --> 0:32:27.920
<v Speaker 1>get the care they need. These unforeseen consequences of the

0:32:28.080 --> 0:32:32.320
<v Speaker 1>inability to legislate on the part of Republicans is shocking

0:32:32.440 --> 0:32:34.840
<v Speaker 1>to me. But it shouldn't be right, It shouldn't be

0:32:35.120 --> 0:32:36.960
<v Speaker 1>calin what are you watching right now?

0:32:37.280 --> 0:32:40.840
<v Speaker 3>I'm watching that Florida and Arizona. I mean Florida. I

0:32:40.840 --> 0:32:44.280
<v Speaker 3>think in particular, I don't know that people have fully

0:32:44.360 --> 0:32:49.400
<v Speaker 3>registered how many women live in Florida and how many

0:32:49.400 --> 0:32:53.200
<v Speaker 3>abortions appeased in Florida. Yeah, last year there were eighty

0:32:53.200 --> 0:32:56.240
<v Speaker 3>four thousand abortions in Florida. And if you look at

0:32:56.280 --> 0:32:58.480
<v Speaker 3>sort of the bands that are currently in effect. The

0:32:58.520 --> 0:33:01.600
<v Speaker 3>sort of largest state bans Texas, And before that took

0:33:01.600 --> 0:33:04.160
<v Speaker 3>a fact, fifty thousand happened in Texas.

0:33:04.280 --> 0:33:05.880
<v Speaker 1>Wait, what's the number in Florida.

0:33:06.000 --> 0:33:07.440
<v Speaker 3>In Florida, it's eighty four thousand.

0:33:07.800 --> 0:33:11.880
<v Speaker 1>Wow. Yeah, and it's and historically it's always been a

0:33:11.920 --> 0:33:14.400
<v Speaker 1>safe haven for abortion in the South right.

0:33:14.560 --> 0:33:17.760
<v Speaker 3>It has because of the constitutional protections that they had

0:33:17.800 --> 0:33:20.000
<v Speaker 3>for so long. And I also think like that just

0:33:20.080 --> 0:33:24.240
<v Speaker 3>the geography geography of Florida makes it extremely difficult. Like

0:33:24.800 --> 0:33:28.000
<v Speaker 3>somebody that's coming from Key West to go to the

0:33:28.040 --> 0:33:30.320
<v Speaker 3>nearest clinic at there after six weeks, once this law

0:33:30.360 --> 0:33:32.800
<v Speaker 3>takes it back, they're going to have to drive fourteen hours.

0:33:33.040 --> 0:33:38.040
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Carolyn, thanks for having me on. Stephen Richer

0:33:38.400 --> 0:33:46.640
<v Speaker 1>is the Maracoba County, Arizona Recorder. Welcome Steven, too fast politics,

0:33:46.800 --> 0:33:48.360
<v Speaker 1>Tell us what you do.

0:33:48.720 --> 0:33:53.200
<v Speaker 4>I am the elected Maykope County Recorder. I ran in

0:33:53.280 --> 0:33:56.000
<v Speaker 4>twenty twenty in the Republican primary one that won the

0:33:56.040 --> 0:33:57.520
<v Speaker 4>general election in November.

0:33:58.080 --> 0:34:03.520
<v Speaker 5>I am statutorially responsible for early voting, voter registration and

0:34:03.720 --> 0:34:07.440
<v Speaker 5>document recording in Mericle County, which is the fourth largest

0:34:07.440 --> 0:34:10.480
<v Speaker 5>county in the United States, and second largest voting jurisdiction

0:34:10.560 --> 0:34:13.120
<v Speaker 5>in the United States and makes up about sixty two

0:34:13.200 --> 0:34:15.440
<v Speaker 5>percent of Arizona's voting population.

0:34:15.640 --> 0:34:20.319
<v Speaker 1>It's an elected job, but you are a Republican.

0:34:20.520 --> 0:34:23.720
<v Speaker 4>Yes, elected job, and I'm a Republican. That's correct.

0:34:23.960 --> 0:34:26.839
<v Speaker 1>And one of the things that you've been doing, which

0:34:26.880 --> 0:34:30.160
<v Speaker 1>I think is probably one of the more important things,

0:34:30.520 --> 0:34:35.040
<v Speaker 1>is trying to correct the record when it comes to

0:34:35.600 --> 0:34:40.080
<v Speaker 1>the twenty twenty election and its integrity. Talk to us

0:34:40.280 --> 0:34:43.279
<v Speaker 1>about sort of if you could set the stage of

0:34:43.760 --> 0:34:49.719
<v Speaker 1>how you became this celebrity. Sorry, I apologize for the

0:34:50.160 --> 0:34:51.360
<v Speaker 1>use of the word celebrity.

0:34:51.600 --> 0:34:55.440
<v Speaker 4>No no, no, I guess it's just my quasi looking

0:34:55.640 --> 0:34:59.239
<v Speaker 4>at local in there. No, no, no, you'll come on

0:34:59.400 --> 0:35:03.239
<v Speaker 4>board on for it. On well, one, the election administration

0:35:03.320 --> 0:35:06.560
<v Speaker 4>is sort of new to the business of communicating regarding

0:35:06.560 --> 0:35:09.560
<v Speaker 4>the process. There weren't too many people prior to say,

0:35:09.600 --> 0:35:12.239
<v Speaker 4>twenty eighteen that were terribly interested in the nuts and

0:35:12.239 --> 0:35:15.239
<v Speaker 4>bolts of election administration. And so this is still an

0:35:15.320 --> 0:35:19.000
<v Speaker 4>ecosystem that is being built out, and so is new landscape.

0:35:19.320 --> 0:35:22.879
<v Speaker 4>And then obviously since twenty twenty, there have been a

0:35:22.960 --> 0:35:28.520
<v Speaker 4>countless number of false allegations about both the twenty twenty election,

0:35:28.719 --> 0:35:32.759
<v Speaker 4>the twenty twenty two election, and there haven't been too

0:35:32.800 --> 0:35:38.400
<v Speaker 4>many people who have been consistently and with technical specificity

0:35:38.520 --> 0:35:42.040
<v Speaker 4>pushing back against the falsehoods. And there have been even

0:35:42.200 --> 0:35:46.560
<v Speaker 4>fewer who are elected Republicans. And so I think that

0:35:46.760 --> 0:35:49.080
<v Speaker 4>has made me a bit of an anomaly and maybe

0:35:49.719 --> 0:35:53.000
<v Speaker 4>the celebrity I've earned has just been the product of

0:35:53.040 --> 0:35:55.160
<v Speaker 4>my being a bit of a anomalist freak.

0:35:55.800 --> 0:35:59.239
<v Speaker 1>Yes, anomalist freak. Well, welcome, because that's something we love.

0:35:59.400 --> 0:36:02.440
<v Speaker 1>One of the problems with elections is that every state

0:36:02.560 --> 0:36:07.040
<v Speaker 1>is different, certain counties are different. There's very little uniformity

0:36:07.080 --> 0:36:10.960
<v Speaker 1>in it, which actually protects our election. Zah, Will you

0:36:11.600 --> 0:36:13.160
<v Speaker 1>explain a little bit about that.

0:36:13.640 --> 0:36:15.840
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it is a feature in a flaw, as you

0:36:15.880 --> 0:36:19.759
<v Speaker 4>have correctly identified. We have over eight thousand voting jurisdictions

0:36:19.760 --> 0:36:23.080
<v Speaker 4>in the United States. We have fifteen in Arizona. The

0:36:23.120 --> 0:36:26.720
<v Speaker 4>fifteen different counties. Elections are administered at the county level

0:36:26.760 --> 0:36:31.200
<v Speaker 4>in Arizona. That is a feature in that no two

0:36:31.239 --> 0:36:34.279
<v Speaker 4>systems are exactly alike. It's not the same people, it's

0:36:34.320 --> 0:36:37.279
<v Speaker 4>not the same software. Necessarily, it's not the same machinery.

0:36:37.320 --> 0:36:41.240
<v Speaker 4>And so the notion that you could flip a switch

0:36:41.640 --> 0:36:45.919
<v Speaker 4>or install a program into some mothership computer that would

0:36:45.960 --> 0:36:50.640
<v Speaker 4>then disseminate out to all election jurisdictions throughout the United States.

0:36:50.719 --> 0:36:54.759
<v Speaker 4>Is just a fundamental misunderstanding of how elections work in

0:36:54.800 --> 0:36:59.399
<v Speaker 4>the United States. That's why some of the more outlandish

0:36:59.520 --> 0:37:02.799
<v Speaker 4>theories of the twenty twenty election, as far as dominion

0:37:02.920 --> 0:37:07.799
<v Speaker 4>being able to control everything, or one software patch or

0:37:07.840 --> 0:37:11.080
<v Speaker 4>something like that, where for anyone who knew about elections

0:37:11.239 --> 0:37:15.719
<v Speaker 4>pretty silly. It's a bug in that a lot of

0:37:15.760 --> 0:37:20.000
<v Speaker 4>our politics has become nationalized, and people on election night,

0:37:20.120 --> 0:37:25.000
<v Speaker 4>especially in November of even years, look to the MSNBC,

0:37:25.200 --> 0:37:28.239
<v Speaker 4>CNN's Fox News is of the world and they will

0:37:28.280 --> 0:37:32.120
<v Speaker 4>see something being said and being done in one state

0:37:32.480 --> 0:37:36.040
<v Speaker 4>that won't necessarily be done or said in another state,

0:37:36.280 --> 0:37:40.240
<v Speaker 4>and that can create confusion, that can create concern. Why

0:37:40.320 --> 0:37:44.680
<v Speaker 4>does Pennsylvania have so few of its ballots reported immediately

0:37:45.239 --> 0:37:49.760
<v Speaker 4>but Washington was just able to immediately provide fifty percent

0:37:49.840 --> 0:37:54.680
<v Speaker 4>of its expected returns. Well, Washington could pre process Pennsylvania couldn't.

0:37:54.960 --> 0:37:57.799
<v Speaker 4>In Florida, more people have show up in person and

0:37:57.840 --> 0:38:01.480
<v Speaker 4>they drop off their early ballots earlier. So that is

0:38:01.640 --> 0:38:04.360
<v Speaker 4>something that we have had to remind viewers members of

0:38:04.400 --> 0:38:08.560
<v Speaker 4>the media that this is federalizomat it's core in how

0:38:08.640 --> 0:38:10.480
<v Speaker 4>our election administration is designed.

0:38:10.680 --> 0:38:15.000
<v Speaker 1>Someone like you isn't necessarily a public facing individual in

0:38:15.080 --> 0:38:19.160
<v Speaker 1>most states, so you can't just call up. I mean,

0:38:19.320 --> 0:38:26.160
<v Speaker 1>on this podcast, we have interviewed so many state level politicians,

0:38:26.280 --> 0:38:29.440
<v Speaker 1>like during the Virginia we interviewed, you know, during that

0:38:29.520 --> 0:38:33.680
<v Speaker 1>Virginia election, we interviewed like a lot of delegates, right,

0:38:33.800 --> 0:38:37.600
<v Speaker 1>a lot of state senators. So I know that not

0:38:37.760 --> 0:38:39.920
<v Speaker 1>and I mean this with all the love in the world,

0:38:40.040 --> 0:38:44.120
<v Speaker 1>not all state officials are ready to handle the media spotlight.

0:38:44.480 --> 0:38:49.560
<v Speaker 4>I think that's a very fair statement, and it is

0:38:49.600 --> 0:38:51.520
<v Speaker 4>not unduly disrespectful.

0:38:51.760 --> 0:38:54.279
<v Speaker 1>Okay, good, and nor should they, right, I mean, that's

0:38:54.360 --> 0:38:57.120
<v Speaker 1>not you. You know, your job is very technical too.

0:38:57.320 --> 0:39:01.640
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I want you to talk about your lawsuit

0:39:01.680 --> 0:39:04.960
<v Speaker 1>because it seems to be the only way to stop

0:39:05.160 --> 0:39:09.719
<v Speaker 1>this disinformation. Carry Lake decided that she was governor and

0:39:09.760 --> 0:39:13.720
<v Speaker 1>that this would somehow even though you're a Republican, even

0:39:13.760 --> 0:39:16.759
<v Speaker 1>though you do this very technical job, but somehow you

0:39:16.800 --> 0:39:17.680
<v Speaker 1>were involved in us.

0:39:18.000 --> 0:39:18.160
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:39:18.520 --> 0:39:21.400
<v Speaker 4>So Carry Lake was somebody who is new to Republican

0:39:21.440 --> 0:39:24.640
<v Speaker 4>Party politics. In about twenty twenty went on the scene,

0:39:24.760 --> 0:39:27.800
<v Speaker 4>really built her character around the idea that the twenty

0:39:27.840 --> 0:39:32.239
<v Speaker 4>twenty election was stolen. Made her fame in politics in

0:39:32.280 --> 0:39:36.719
<v Speaker 4>that vein Ran became the gubernatorial nominee for the Republican

0:39:36.760 --> 0:39:40.360
<v Speaker 4>Party in the twenty twenty two election, narrowly lost to

0:39:40.400 --> 0:39:44.360
<v Speaker 4>the Democratic candidate, alleged a whole bunch of crazy things

0:39:44.360 --> 0:39:46.560
<v Speaker 4>that were a continuation of all the things that she

0:39:46.640 --> 0:39:50.200
<v Speaker 4>was saying about twenty twenty. Filed numerous election complaints in

0:39:50.239 --> 0:39:54.080
<v Speaker 4>which she would air these very specific allegations regarding actions

0:39:54.120 --> 0:39:57.759
<v Speaker 4>that I purportedly took two in particular, that I had

0:39:57.800 --> 0:40:01.880
<v Speaker 4>injected three hundred thousand early ballots that were fraudulent into

0:40:01.920 --> 0:40:05.600
<v Speaker 4>the voting system, and that I had manipulated machinery so

0:40:05.680 --> 0:40:09.280
<v Speaker 4>as to swing the election in favor of her opponent.

0:40:09.520 --> 0:40:13.239
<v Speaker 4>She files those lawsuits, court says there's no evidence for this,

0:40:13.360 --> 0:40:16.280
<v Speaker 4>no foundation for this. It pretty much kicks the snot

0:40:16.320 --> 0:40:19.480
<v Speaker 4>out of her on all of her claims, including others.

0:40:19.560 --> 0:40:21.560
<v Speaker 4>She appeals to the Court of Appeals, loses the Court

0:40:21.560 --> 0:40:24.399
<v Speaker 4>of Appeals, she loses at the Arizona Supreme Court. There's

0:40:24.440 --> 0:40:27.560
<v Speaker 4>another trial, she loses on that, and so she has

0:40:28.040 --> 0:40:33.120
<v Speaker 4>a very intense awareness that all these things have been

0:40:33.239 --> 0:40:37.080
<v Speaker 4>measured and they have been found wanting on evidence and

0:40:37.239 --> 0:40:43.200
<v Speaker 4>facts and law. Nonetheless, she persists in making these very

0:40:43.760 --> 0:40:48.320
<v Speaker 4>serious accusations that I stole the twenty twenty two election

0:40:48.480 --> 0:40:52.480
<v Speaker 4>from her. She would go to events, she would write

0:40:52.600 --> 0:40:56.000
<v Speaker 4>on Twitter, she would write in her fundraising emails. She

0:40:56.040 --> 0:40:58.799
<v Speaker 4>would name me. She would show pictures of me at

0:40:58.840 --> 0:41:00.840
<v Speaker 4>events where she would try to stir up the crowd.

0:41:00.920 --> 0:41:04.800
<v Speaker 4>This man, this Stephen Richer. He injected three hundred thousand

0:41:04.880 --> 0:41:07.160
<v Speaker 4>fraudulent bouts, and she would say it time after time.

0:41:07.320 --> 0:41:09.480
<v Speaker 1>Did you find it scary or now?

0:41:09.800 --> 0:41:12.200
<v Speaker 4>Some people would report back to me, including a writer

0:41:12.280 --> 0:41:14.719
<v Speaker 4>for the Washington Post, and he said, make sure you're

0:41:14.760 --> 0:41:19.200
<v Speaker 4>taking precautions because people are being whipped up into a frenzy. Here.

0:41:19.320 --> 0:41:21.960
<v Speaker 4>I'm imagining sort of the scene and Beauty and the Beast,

0:41:22.000 --> 0:41:25.040
<v Speaker 4>where Gastan says, you know, grab your pitch fork, grab

0:41:25.080 --> 0:41:28.840
<v Speaker 4>your hoe, and we're going to go kill the beast. Yeah,

0:41:29.000 --> 0:41:32.600
<v Speaker 4>he continues, and we're thinking, Ah, she'll get over it.

0:41:32.760 --> 0:41:35.160
<v Speaker 4>Most people do. Maybe not in this new age. She'll

0:41:35.160 --> 0:41:38.440
<v Speaker 4>get a new job. But this became the cornerstone of

0:41:38.480 --> 0:41:42.919
<v Speaker 4>her continued political relevance. Her political fundraising. She even wrote

0:41:42.960 --> 0:41:45.880
<v Speaker 4>a book in which I appear in a really creepy,

0:41:45.920 --> 0:41:49.799
<v Speaker 4>weird dream sequence that she supposedly has, And we were

0:41:49.840 --> 0:41:54.040
<v Speaker 4>at our wits end and so filed this defamation lawsuit.

0:41:54.080 --> 0:41:56.480
<v Speaker 4>My legal team and I we thought we had a

0:41:56.640 --> 0:42:00.920
<v Speaker 4>very strong case because obviously it's very false. She'd been

0:42:01.120 --> 0:42:04.360
<v Speaker 4>told it was false, she knew from court rulings it

0:42:04.440 --> 0:42:07.600
<v Speaker 4>was false. It did real damage to my family and me,

0:42:08.000 --> 0:42:12.080
<v Speaker 4>and we've been successful so far. She filed motions to

0:42:12.160 --> 0:42:17.279
<v Speaker 4>dismiss she lost on those multiple times, and then when

0:42:17.320 --> 0:42:20.520
<v Speaker 4>it came time to really get going on discovery and

0:42:20.600 --> 0:42:25.600
<v Speaker 4>fact investigation, she defaulted, meaning that a judgment is going

0:42:25.640 --> 0:42:28.719
<v Speaker 4>to be entered into the court of law saying that yes,

0:42:28.920 --> 0:42:33.200
<v Speaker 4>Carrie Lake defamed Stephen Richer. She could not prove the

0:42:33.280 --> 0:42:37.440
<v Speaker 4>truth of her allegations. She is not defending their falsity,

0:42:37.880 --> 0:42:41.000
<v Speaker 4>she is not defending malice. And now the only thing

0:42:41.000 --> 0:42:44.000
<v Speaker 4>that we have left to work on is how many

0:42:44.160 --> 0:42:48.879
<v Speaker 4>zeros are in the damages award and how much did

0:42:48.920 --> 0:42:51.720
<v Speaker 4>she destroy my character among certain people?

0:42:51.920 --> 0:42:53.840
<v Speaker 1>Can you tell us about the dream sequence?

0:42:54.520 --> 0:42:54.719
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

0:42:56.200 --> 0:42:57.120
<v Speaker 4>I couldn't believe it.

0:42:57.239 --> 0:42:59.440
<v Speaker 1>Wait, she wrote a book, Yeah, she.

0:42:59.400 --> 0:43:02.520
<v Speaker 4>Wrote a book published in the summer of twenty three.

0:43:03.040 --> 0:43:07.440
<v Speaker 4>In her dream sequence, I and one of my colleagues

0:43:07.520 --> 0:43:11.719
<v Speaker 4>from the county. We kidnap her. We tie her up

0:43:11.880 --> 0:43:15.640
<v Speaker 4>in duct tape. We throw her into the back of

0:43:15.719 --> 0:43:19.400
<v Speaker 4>a pickup truck. We drive her out into the desert.

0:43:19.800 --> 0:43:23.759
<v Speaker 4>But then, because she drops a footnote that she was

0:43:23.800 --> 0:43:27.799
<v Speaker 4>a high school gymnast, she was able to contort herself

0:43:27.920 --> 0:43:31.319
<v Speaker 4>out of her duct tape bindings. And then because she

0:43:31.440 --> 0:43:35.880
<v Speaker 4>ran track in high school, she was able to sprint

0:43:35.920 --> 0:43:39.080
<v Speaker 4>off while we as bumbling fools. Though we fired shots

0:43:39.120 --> 0:43:42.600
<v Speaker 4>after her, we weren't able to get her. And I'll

0:43:42.760 --> 0:43:45.400
<v Speaker 4>say that in a foot race, I'm guessing I destroy

0:43:45.520 --> 0:43:46.000
<v Speaker 4>this lady.

0:43:46.200 --> 0:43:49.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean, the whole thing is so just deeply,

0:43:50.600 --> 0:43:53.520
<v Speaker 1>deeply disturbing and also quite strange.

0:43:53.719 --> 0:43:56.719
<v Speaker 4>If you read this in a different context, you would

0:43:56.719 --> 0:43:59.160
<v Speaker 4>say this person is a lunatic.

0:43:59.560 --> 0:44:01.759
<v Speaker 1>Right, let's keep going with this for a minute. She

0:44:01.800 --> 0:44:05.080
<v Speaker 1>continued to defame you when you won this case, because

0:44:05.080 --> 0:44:08.319
<v Speaker 1>this is like the Rudy Giuliani problem, right, Like you

0:44:08.400 --> 0:44:12.440
<v Speaker 1>had the two election workers who sued Judy Giuliani, and

0:44:12.520 --> 0:44:15.160
<v Speaker 1>you had Egene Carroll Sewing Trump Boyd. When you sue

0:44:15.200 --> 0:44:18.880
<v Speaker 1>these people for defamation. They tend not to stop defaming.

0:44:19.040 --> 0:44:20.680
<v Speaker 1>Did she actually stop defaming?

0:44:20.960 --> 0:44:24.000
<v Speaker 4>This is all pretty new, so we'll see. But certainly

0:44:24.000 --> 0:44:29.000
<v Speaker 4>in the immediate aftermath of her defaulting, it was bizarre

0:44:29.080 --> 0:44:33.360
<v Speaker 4>because at the same time she's resting her defense in

0:44:33.400 --> 0:44:35.759
<v Speaker 4>a court of law, she's going on to Twitter and

0:44:35.800 --> 0:44:39.440
<v Speaker 4>saying I stand by everything I said, and so you

0:44:39.520 --> 0:44:44.160
<v Speaker 4>better believe that we're watching those statements, and if she continues,

0:44:44.239 --> 0:44:48.200
<v Speaker 4>then we will take appropriate legal action because now we

0:44:48.360 --> 0:44:52.040
<v Speaker 4>have a judgment that these are defamatory remarks that she

0:44:52.160 --> 0:44:55.120
<v Speaker 4>cannot defend. She cannot prove our troop.

0:44:55.440 --> 0:44:59.399
<v Speaker 1>The central tenant of our democracy is that we have

0:44:59.600 --> 0:45:03.080
<v Speaker 1>free and fair elections. Why do we think that these

0:45:03.200 --> 0:45:05.480
<v Speaker 1>trumpy I don't even want to say Republicans, because there

0:45:05.480 --> 0:45:09.799
<v Speaker 1>are good Republicans who they really that's sort of Trump in,

0:45:10.120 --> 0:45:12.160
<v Speaker 1>you know, these lies about the election, these Trump he

0:45:12.239 --> 0:45:13.120
<v Speaker 1>lies about the election.

0:45:13.560 --> 0:45:17.920
<v Speaker 4>The incentive structure right now, the most powerful endorsement in

0:45:18.040 --> 0:45:22.040
<v Speaker 4>politics right now is a Republican primary endorsement from President Trump.

0:45:22.239 --> 0:45:29.040
<v Speaker 4>And this is a necessary and sometimes sufficient qualification for

0:45:29.320 --> 0:45:34.200
<v Speaker 4>getting his endorsement is telling him very fervently that he

0:45:34.800 --> 0:45:36.080
<v Speaker 4>won the twenty twenty election.

0:45:36.520 --> 0:45:40.759
<v Speaker 1>If he wins. Obviously we all have figger problems. But

0:45:41.239 --> 0:45:45.120
<v Speaker 1>in a world where the Republican Party loses an all

0:45:45.320 --> 0:45:50.800
<v Speaker 1>and finally becomes sane again, some part of this base

0:45:51.280 --> 0:45:53.680
<v Speaker 1>has descended in trump Ism, But it seems as if

0:45:53.760 --> 0:45:56.479
<v Speaker 1>there are people who can come back and be quote

0:45:56.560 --> 0:45:57.880
<v Speaker 1>unquote more normal.

0:45:58.239 --> 0:46:01.120
<v Speaker 4>I think so, and it's why I'm still part of

0:46:01.120 --> 0:46:04.320
<v Speaker 4>the Republican Party because I believe in the twenty sixteen

0:46:04.400 --> 0:46:07.440
<v Speaker 4>party platform. I believe in the twenty twelve party platform,

0:46:07.840 --> 0:46:13.640
<v Speaker 4>and the philosophy of a limited government and small, lower taxes,

0:46:13.719 --> 0:46:17.080
<v Speaker 4>lower regulation. We can quibble about those things of whether

0:46:17.160 --> 0:46:20.640
<v Speaker 4>the party, you know, consistently implements those but that's not

0:46:20.680 --> 0:46:23.880
<v Speaker 4>really the purpose of today's conversation, I don't think. But

0:46:24.000 --> 0:46:28.720
<v Speaker 4>a party will always have a percentage of its voting

0:46:28.760 --> 0:46:31.959
<v Speaker 4>members that you know, maybe aren't you are a little

0:46:31.960 --> 0:46:34.560
<v Speaker 4>bit your weird uncle. Just the difference is that the

0:46:34.560 --> 0:46:37.759
<v Speaker 4>weird uncle has taken over the steering wheel for in

0:46:37.840 --> 0:46:42.280
<v Speaker 4>some instances eight years. But the Democratic Party, I would say,

0:46:42.560 --> 0:46:45.080
<v Speaker 4>flirted with this a little bit. And I'm not going

0:46:45.120 --> 0:46:49.480
<v Speaker 4>to draw one to one comparisons, but elevating Bernie Sanders

0:46:49.480 --> 0:46:52.880
<v Speaker 4>into the leadership role would have been giving over control

0:46:53.000 --> 0:46:56.040
<v Speaker 4>to not where the median member of the party used

0:46:56.040 --> 0:46:59.319
<v Speaker 4>to be. And so just it's an interesting phenomenon that

0:46:59.400 --> 0:47:04.280
<v Speaker 4>I think has its roots in intense partisanship, intense polarization,

0:47:04.719 --> 0:47:10.719
<v Speaker 4>intense distrust in society, intense media ecosystems that are silos,

0:47:11.000 --> 0:47:14.120
<v Speaker 4>and trace it back to I don't know whether it's

0:47:14.640 --> 0:47:18.359
<v Speaker 4>the two thousand and eight financial crisis or the Tea

0:47:18.440 --> 0:47:25.880
<v Speaker 4>Party movement, but just trust in anything institutionally has suffered

0:47:25.960 --> 0:47:30.400
<v Speaker 4>immensely over the last twenty years, and elections is simply

0:47:30.480 --> 0:47:32.880
<v Speaker 4>one manifestation of it. But I think that you're going

0:47:32.960 --> 0:47:35.880
<v Speaker 4>to find that, if, for instance, one of these courts

0:47:35.960 --> 0:47:39.160
<v Speaker 4>rules against President Trump in the criminal context, that you're

0:47:39.280 --> 0:47:41.040
<v Speaker 4>going to have a lot of people who do not

0:47:41.080 --> 0:47:44.840
<v Speaker 4>believe in the criminal justice system anymore so insane.

0:47:45.600 --> 0:47:50.040
<v Speaker 1>Do you think there's a way like using more clarity

0:47:50.560 --> 0:47:55.360
<v Speaker 1>will help Republicans see that these elections were fair, you know,

0:47:55.400 --> 0:47:57.279
<v Speaker 1>because clearly you think about this a lot. Give me

0:47:57.320 --> 0:47:59.160
<v Speaker 1>your hot take for the solve here.

0:47:59.560 --> 0:48:03.359
<v Speaker 4>I think we have to accept that there's a percentage

0:48:03.360 --> 0:48:07.400
<v Speaker 4>of the party that will never be convinced even moving forward.

0:48:07.480 --> 0:48:09.640
<v Speaker 4>I think we have to accept that there's even a

0:48:09.719 --> 0:48:14.080
<v Speaker 4>larger percentage that is never going to change their opinion

0:48:14.160 --> 0:48:17.680
<v Speaker 4>about twenty twenty election. Why we try to provide more

0:48:17.719 --> 0:48:23.640
<v Speaker 4>and more information and combat false information online is because

0:48:24.440 --> 0:48:29.080
<v Speaker 4>we believe that there are people, especially forward looking people,

0:48:29.239 --> 0:48:33.799
<v Speaker 4>who can be convinced with more information, that this is

0:48:33.840 --> 0:48:36.759
<v Speaker 4>a system that they can have confidence in even if

0:48:36.760 --> 0:48:39.560
<v Speaker 4>they don't like the outcome. And so we're not look

0:48:39.600 --> 0:48:43.280
<v Speaker 4>at we're not shooting for one hundred percent here, And truthfully,

0:48:43.320 --> 0:48:46.960
<v Speaker 4>that's never happened in American politics. There's always been a

0:48:47.040 --> 0:48:50.000
<v Speaker 4>distrust from the losing party. It's just we've seen it

0:48:50.040 --> 0:48:53.799
<v Speaker 4>on steroids these last few years. But I hope that

0:48:53.840 --> 0:48:57.440
<v Speaker 4>we can bring back people. A central core belief of

0:48:57.480 --> 0:49:00.640
<v Speaker 4>mine is that man is still a rational reacher and

0:49:00.680 --> 0:49:03.520
<v Speaker 4>if you hit him with facts and logics, then that's

0:49:03.600 --> 0:49:06.200
<v Speaker 4>going to have an impact to at least a good

0:49:06.280 --> 0:49:07.000
<v Speaker 4>number of people.

0:49:07.400 --> 0:49:11.880
<v Speaker 1>Well, let's hope. Thank you so much. This is really interesting,

0:49:12.040 --> 0:49:13.000
<v Speaker 1>So thanks.

0:49:12.920 --> 0:49:16.040
<v Speaker 4>Great.

0:49:16.480 --> 0:49:21.000
<v Speaker 1>Moment. Oh fuck on, Jesse Cannon, Molly jung Fast.

0:49:21.239 --> 0:49:24.240
<v Speaker 4>The juice is loose in the afterlife.

0:49:24.280 --> 0:49:29.600
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes mainstream media. Look, it's very hard. Writing straight down

0:49:29.640 --> 0:49:33.960
<v Speaker 1>the middle is very hard. But OJ Simpson's obituary has

0:49:34.040 --> 0:49:40.000
<v Speaker 1>proven to be a sticky wicket that many a mainstream

0:49:40.200 --> 0:49:45.480
<v Speaker 1>news outlet has failed. O J. Simpson, athlete whose trial

0:49:45.640 --> 0:49:48.800
<v Speaker 1>riveted the nation, dies at seventy six. He ran to

0:49:48.920 --> 0:49:51.680
<v Speaker 1>football fame on the field and made fortunes in movies,

0:49:52.000 --> 0:49:55.160
<v Speaker 1>but his world was ruined after he was charged with

0:49:55.239 --> 0:49:59.960
<v Speaker 1>killing his former wife and her friend. Hmmm, the passive voice,

0:50:00.000 --> 0:50:03.640
<v Speaker 1>this is a choice. And then we had breaking news

0:50:03.680 --> 0:50:08.600
<v Speaker 1>football great orenthal James Simpson, known as Ojay has died. Perhaps,

0:50:08.880 --> 0:50:12.440
<v Speaker 1>but I think the height of fuckery will be the

0:50:12.600 --> 0:50:16.560
<v Speaker 1>La Times accidentally using the name Trump in place of

0:50:16.640 --> 0:50:21.239
<v Speaker 1>Simpson near the end of their oh bit. And I'm

0:50:21.280 --> 0:50:23.360
<v Speaker 1>just going to read you the sentence because it's amazing.

0:50:23.440 --> 0:50:26.400
<v Speaker 1>Long before the city woke up on a fall morning

0:50:26.480 --> 0:50:31.560
<v Speaker 1>in twenty seventeen, Trump walked out of the Lovelock County

0:50:31.719 --> 0:50:36.680
<v Speaker 1>Correction Center outside of Reno a freeman for the first

0:50:36.760 --> 0:50:40.279
<v Speaker 1>time in nine years. And that, my friends, is our

0:50:40.400 --> 0:50:45.480
<v Speaker 1>moment of fuckery. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics.

0:50:45.840 --> 0:50:48.759
<v Speaker 1>Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the

0:50:48.800 --> 0:50:52.279
<v Speaker 1>best minds in politics makes sense of all this chaos.

0:50:52.520 --> 0:50:55.080
<v Speaker 1>If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to

0:50:55.120 --> 0:50:58.520
<v Speaker 1>a friend and keep the conversation going, and again thanks

0:50:58.560 --> 0:50:59.160
<v Speaker 1>for listening.

0:51:00.840 --> 0:51:01.040
<v Speaker 3>Two