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Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're taking
Speaker 1: you beyond the goalie box. It's Wednesday, June eleventh, and
Speaker 1: on today's show, we'll be skipping the need to know
Speaker 1: and getting right into the first installment of our new series,
Speaker 1: Life Beyond Living Beyond Labels, a powerful podcast campaign brought
Speaker 1: to you by Iheartwomen's Sports.
Speaker 2: Our Life Beyond.
Speaker 1: Series will showcase the extraordinary resilience and strength of successful
Speaker 1: women diving deep into their lives, highlighting their personal journeys, passions,
Speaker 1: and the ways in which they're living beyond the labels
Speaker 1: they've been given by others. Our first guest is World
Speaker 1: Cup champion soccer player, activist and fellow iHeart podcast host
Speaker 1: Ashlyn Harris. She joins me to talk about finding identity
Speaker 1: and strength beyond the soccer which at motherhood, mental health,
Speaker 1: facing criticism, and the work require to heal from the
Speaker 1: pressure of performance.
Speaker 2: My conversation with Ashland is coming up right after this.
Speaker 3: Joining US now.
Speaker 1: She's a former longtime US women's national team player and
Speaker 1: two time World Cup winner. She played for a long
Speaker 1: list of pro clubs, including the Washington Spirit, Orlando Pride,
Speaker 1: and gothamme FC of the NWSL, and was a two
Speaker 1: time Goalkeeper of the Year twenty eleven in the WPS
Speaker 1: and twenty sixteen in the NWSL. She played her college
Speaker 1: soccer for the UNC tar Heels and helped the team
Speaker 1: win three NCAA championships. Mom of two, her tats are many,
Speaker 1: her fits are legendary. It's Florida woman, Ashland Harris. What's up, Ashley?
Speaker 2: What an intro?
Speaker 1: Are you willing to claim Florida right now?
Speaker 3: I'm not willing to claim anything in this country.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm booked and busy, Like just I want to.
Speaker 3: Take a snooze for four years and wake back up
Speaker 3: and say this shit is gone.
Speaker 2: It was a bad dream, right, you know what?
Speaker 1: I think It's a bad sign that yesterday I told
Speaker 1: someone I wanted to fake a coma for a week
Speaker 1: so that everyone.
Speaker 2: Would leave me alone.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: It was like, but I'm not going to sleep.
Speaker 1: I'm going to get stuff done so that when it
Speaker 1: come out of the goma, I feel prepared for all
Speaker 1: the emails and frond culsters.
Speaker 2: And ready to snooze.
Speaker 3: It was just put me out, put us both to sleep,
Speaker 3: put me to sleep.
Speaker 2: Just a tranquilizer dart to the neck. What was that?
Speaker 2: Was at an old school? That was well?
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us to talk about life beyond soccer,
Speaker 1: beyond the goalie box, beyond the usual things that come
Speaker 1: up in sports interviews.
Speaker 2: I want to actually start at the beginning though.
Speaker 1: One why you ended up in the goaliebox, Because I've
Speaker 1: listened to interviews and you described yourself as a liability
Speaker 1: on the field. Oh, you were an angry kid playing
Speaker 1: with boys, slide tackling everyone, and you ended up essentially
Speaker 1: getting banished to the box so that you could do
Speaker 1: less damage. Why were you so angry? Why did the
Speaker 1: field become a place for you to get that out?
Speaker 3: I wouldn't say that I was angry, Like, I played
Speaker 3: with boys growing up, so it's not really like a
Speaker 3: competitive women's girls team where I lived. Because I grew
Speaker 3: up on a small beach town in Cocoa Beach, Florida.
Speaker 3: And I was born in Cape Canaveral and everyone surfed
Speaker 3: and skated, so everything I did was around guys and
Speaker 3: my brother.
Speaker 2: I had an older brother and that was my only sibling.
Speaker 3: So for me to hang out with my brother, I
Speaker 3: had to be good enough at everything because I didn't
Speaker 3: want to get picked last. And I became such an
Speaker 3: asset because I was such a competitor, and I would
Speaker 3: do I just played dirty because sometimes like facts are facts,
Speaker 3: like when the guys got bigger and faster and stronger,
Speaker 3: like I had to find a different way. So with soccer,
Speaker 3: because I played baseball with my brother, I played basketball,
Speaker 3: I did it all football. But with soccer, you know,
Speaker 3: the guys, just as I got older, were a little
Speaker 3: bit faster than I was. So I did a lot
Speaker 3: of things like leaving my feet and two I would
Speaker 3: two foot tackle people often. And but you know, back
Speaker 3: in the day when we were young and it was
Speaker 3: like raining and wet, which is Florida every single day,
Speaker 3: all it turned into was a slide tackling mess and
Speaker 3: there wasn't really like soccer used to be way more
Speaker 3: dirty than it is today. So yeah, I would like
Speaker 3: take people's legs out, like I just and my coach
Speaker 3: was like, every game, we're getting so many yellow cards
Speaker 3: and red cards because if you don't get the ball,
Speaker 3: like you could really hurt someone. So he was like,
Speaker 3: I got a good idea for you, Like let's put
Speaker 3: you in goal and you can be on.
Speaker 2: Your feet all you want.
Speaker 3: You can get away with tackling and hitting people and
Speaker 3: not making it a liability for the team. And then
Speaker 3: I got in goal and I was just hammering people
Speaker 3: and I.
Speaker 1: Loved it, you know, I think I've I've also heard
Speaker 1: you talk about childhood just being a struggle at times,
Speaker 1: how things for your family were tough, and so sport
Speaker 1: was sort of an escape or a way to help
Speaker 1: or a way to get out. Did you put pressure
Speaker 1: on yourself in that way. Did it become something where
Speaker 1: you thought, I need to be great at this because
Speaker 1: it's necessary, or did you always have a natural drive.
Speaker 2: To be great.
Speaker 3: I think you talk about like community and family and safety.
Speaker 3: I think in sports I just could be me and
Speaker 3: I didn't quite understand that as a kid, but as
Speaker 3: I'm older, I wanted to play and do everything that
Speaker 3: was organized sports. And I think for me in a
Speaker 3: house that felt very unsafe for me as a kid,
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, like, sport gives me community, it
Speaker 3: gives me safety, it gives me an active way to
Speaker 3: get off the streets. Because I was doing drugs in
Speaker 3: sixth grade. I was you know, I started smoking in
Speaker 3: sixth grade, learning about drugs, you know, stealing cigarettes at
Speaker 3: the local like Cumberland Farms. And it was just the
Speaker 3: people I was hanging out with. I was absolutely an
Speaker 3: average of the friendship group I chose at the time.
Speaker 3: And yeah, I don't know, there was something about sport
Speaker 3: that made me feel a sense of belonging that I
Speaker 3: may not have felt otherwise.
Speaker 2: And you know, I moved differently in.
Speaker 3: School at a very early age, and my parents worked
Speaker 3: two jobs, and they, you know, they had a lot
Speaker 3: going on within you know, their their own lives.
Speaker 2: That is hard. You know now as a mom, I
Speaker 2: get it.
Speaker 3: Because I have access to the things my parents could
Speaker 3: never So they were trying to live and figure out
Speaker 3: in real time how to provide and it just it
Speaker 3: was a lot on them, which becomes a lot on
Speaker 3: a household. And yeah, I guess for me to just
Speaker 3: go back to the question without making it the story
Speaker 3: insanely long, is when I was thirteen, I started getting
Speaker 3: college letters, and I'm talking handwritten letters from like Harvard
Speaker 3: and places like I didn't kind of laughable a little
Speaker 3: bit as a kid who couldn't pass a standardized test
Speaker 3: and you know, early development child education because it never
Speaker 3: was a priority in my household.
Speaker 2: But I was like, Oh, I can get a free education.
Speaker 3: Oh I can get out of here, and they can
Speaker 3: pay for all these things. And I think that became
Speaker 3: the reason why I chose soccer and the reason why
Speaker 3: I realized that was going to be my ticket out
Speaker 3: to greatness. And I just put all my cards into
Speaker 3: that right to that bucket and I went for it.
Speaker 1: And it was well, it's an escape in the future,
Speaker 1: and it's a community in the present. Yep. You said
Speaker 1: you needed to feel safe somewhere. Why did your house
Speaker 1: feel unsafe?
Speaker 3: Well, I just think that my family was going through
Speaker 3: really hard time. My dad went he had a really
Speaker 3: really bad accident that put him in the hospital for
Speaker 3: a long time, and he couldn't work and he couldn't
Speaker 3: do the things that he was used to doing, and
Speaker 3: it put a strain on my family's relationship. My mom
Speaker 3: was dealing with mental health problems and depression, and you know,
Speaker 3: financial problems that made it unbearable. So you know, things
Speaker 3: started getting introduced, more drugs, more alcohol, more fragmented. Like
Speaker 3: there's just a ton of loneliness in the house. And
Speaker 3: I was so resentful because of it for so long
Speaker 3: until I became a mom and realized how hard it is,
Speaker 3: how hard it is to provide, how expensive it is,
Speaker 3: how mental health is a real thing, how you know,
Speaker 3: health insurance and things like that to get the right
Speaker 3: medication to you know, make sure everyone was functioning at
Speaker 3: the best as their best self. Like they didn't My
Speaker 3: parents didn't have access to that, right.
Speaker 1: There wasn't the stigmas back then too of actually dealing
Speaker 1: with it.
Speaker 2: It was mostly people were ostracized for struggling.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, or it was like, oh, she's crazy, let's
Speaker 3: throw her into circles of care. And then I'm like okay,
Speaker 3: and then what and now what, like, how do we
Speaker 3: handle this? How do like we just didn't have the
Speaker 3: you know, access to therapy and to good doctors and
Speaker 3: to the education piece. We all just tried to figure
Speaker 3: it out and move forward as best we could, but
Speaker 3: it just was so toxic.
Speaker 1: That's a lot to deal with and you did find
Speaker 1: this outlet in soccer, and your high school achievements are
Speaker 1: beyond beyond, you know, Gatorade Player of the Year. It's
Speaker 1: like multi time awards that most people don't win once,
Speaker 1: let alone multiple years in a row. Like you are
Speaker 1: very clearly one of the best in the country. You're
Speaker 1: getting calls from UNC early end up going to UNC,
Speaker 1: but you don't leave behind some of the things that
Speaker 1: you struggled with at home. Right, you had addiction issues,
Speaker 1: and I've heard you say the same sort of story
Speaker 1: about colleges. You are the person you know sort of
Speaker 1: that you surround yourself with, and so you found similar
Speaker 1: circles that UNC, and ultimately your coach had to sort
Speaker 1: of help you realize that your path could be better
Speaker 1: going forward if you found a way out.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he gave me a book man Searches for Meaning,
Speaker 3: and he would take time every week to sit with
Speaker 3: me and explain to me the values of real connection, community, character,
Speaker 3: and my goalkeeper coach would show up with me and
Speaker 3: I was quite embarrassing at the beginning to all my.
Speaker 2: Classes, but your coach would go with you to class.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Chris Ducar would show up with We call him
Speaker 3: Big Bird, my goalkeeper coach. He would show up to
Speaker 3: all my classes because like to make sure, not to
Speaker 3: make sure I went, but probably just so I felt supported.
Speaker 3: And like, it's interesting, right, Anson is a believer in
Speaker 3: built Dorance your coach at Yeah, he's a believer. And
Speaker 3: you invest just as much as your physical ability as
Speaker 3: an athlete, but you have to really focus on being
Speaker 3: a good person to really develop this level of character
Speaker 3: you want to take with you the rest of your life,
Speaker 3: whether soccer is your gateway or something else. And I
Speaker 3: just was so lucky, and I had so much love
Speaker 3: around me that I wasn't used to. I wasn't used
Speaker 3: to people showing up that way, and they did that
Speaker 3: for me, and lucky enough for me, I started and
Speaker 3: I say this, lucky enough. It's it's very important for
Speaker 3: me to phrase that. I got very injured, very quickly
Speaker 3: when I went to Carolina. I blew out both of
Speaker 3: my knees within the first year, one after another. And
Speaker 3: I was in a really, really bad place because soccer
Speaker 3: was supposed to be my ticket out. It was supposed
Speaker 3: to get me off of food stamps, get me off
Speaker 3: of government money. You know, I was supposed to help
Speaker 3: my family, like I was the golden ticket and now
Speaker 3: I was damaged good and like so many people invested
Speaker 3: so much time, money, and energy into this dream of mine,
Speaker 3: and now what was I going to do? So I
Speaker 3: dove heavily into this both and where I became a
Speaker 3: normal student, which came with partying, which came with adderall addiction,
Speaker 3: which came with depression and mental health issues. And then
Speaker 3: I also focused so heavily on building who I was
Speaker 3: outside of the game, and I almost was forced into
Speaker 3: it by Anson, but it was so pivotal and instrumental
Speaker 3: in developing who I was outside of what I did
Speaker 3: that I was like, it was this both and terror
Speaker 3: for me because I was working so hard on myself
Speaker 3: and my body, but at the same time I was
Speaker 3: trying to numb out.
Speaker 2: Because yeah, like damaging it.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, So it was a really conflicted time for me,
Speaker 3: but was so pivotal and who I am today.
Speaker 2: Well, and thank Goodness for him because that's such a
Speaker 2: natural response.
Speaker 1: So the book I just wrote, I ended up diving
Speaker 1: into so many different outlets of research, reading other books
Speaker 1: about generational trauma pathologies and why people end up the
Speaker 1: way they are. Numbing self, you know, harm all the
Speaker 1: other things. You know, the body keeps the score. I
Speaker 1: can't recommend it enough to peoples. This incredible book about
Speaker 1: understanding how our body is not separate from our brain.
Speaker 1: It doesn't like go a head up and then head
Speaker 1: down and they operate differently. It's all very connected. So
Speaker 1: your desire to heal some of the trauma from growing
Speaker 1: up is at the same time damaging this prop that
Speaker 1: you know is of importance to you and your family
Speaker 1: and everything else. So you end up balancing it out,
Speaker 1: finding a way to have success, leading the team to
Speaker 1: national titles. You end up becoming a US women's national
Speaker 1: team player, having great success on the highest levels. But
Speaker 1: because you learned who you were outside of soccer. When
Speaker 1: you talk about life after soccer, you sound so very
Speaker 1: different from other people who talk about the moment where
Speaker 1: their identity as an athlete sort of ends and they
Speaker 1: have to start anew. It doesn't feel like it's black
Speaker 1: and white like that. For you, was soccer ever really
Speaker 1: who you were after that point in college where you
Speaker 1: recognize that you needed to find out what was past
Speaker 1: being a goalkeeper.
Speaker 3: That's a great question everyone. I'll even take it back
Speaker 3: one step Sarah, because I do think this is important
Speaker 3: and we're so quick to judge in this current world
Speaker 3: and landscape. Soccer was sort of vibe for me, like
Speaker 3: I had no option b if it didn't work. No
Speaker 3: one was paying for my education, not one person at
Speaker 3: the time, and my family even graduated from college, let
Speaker 3: alone how to college education. Everyone always used to be like, God,
Speaker 3: you're just so hungry and you're so intense the way
Speaker 3: you play, the way you move, but off the field,
Speaker 3: like you're just this gentle, soft human that wants to
Speaker 3: connect and wants to do good in the world. And
Speaker 3: I have to be very clear because I think people
Speaker 3: often misunderstood me in a lot of ways because they
Speaker 3: couldn't understand my upbringing. They couldn't understand what survival mode
Speaker 3: looks like. They couldn't understand getting in a lunch line
Speaker 3: and trying to steal pieces of you know, fruit or
Speaker 3: bars or more milk or you know. I had to
Speaker 3: steal a lot as a kid for survival. So not
Speaker 3: that I had to, I don't want to say that
Speaker 3: I had to, but it was a means of survival. Yeah,
Speaker 3: So I didn't wrap all my worth into the game.
Speaker 3: I just knew it would be worth it in the
Speaker 3: end to get me out of the experience.
Speaker 1: That I was like, yeah, And also, nothing heals like sport,
Speaker 1: So it's not just that intellectually you understand it's an outlet. Physically,
Speaker 1: you are going somewhere where you're taking deep, gasping breaths
Speaker 1: and tells your body that times of fight or flight
Speaker 1: are over, that you're not in a traumatic situation.
Speaker 3: You're able to run, stop, breathe.
Speaker 1: Like, communicate with others, like in all these things that
Speaker 1: are inherent to sport that we sort of take for
Speaker 1: granted are in opposition to the traumatic moments at home.
Speaker 3: And allow you those breaks that part. So I'll take
Speaker 3: it a step further. I was so damn good at
Speaker 3: my job because I was so comfortable and suffering because
Speaker 3: I already knew it, you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 3: the air is very thin at the top, and it
Speaker 3: takes a very unique mindset to be that brainwashed to
Speaker 3: want to choose and do it every single day. And
Speaker 3: I felt so much comfort and ease and suffering because
Speaker 3: I felt like it's all I ever knew that it
Speaker 3: was weirdly my superpower. And I don't know if most
Speaker 3: people can say that, and I think that is the
Speaker 3: unlearning I am in now, in the phase that I'm in,
Speaker 3: that I don't have to suffer to feel at home anymore.
Speaker 3: Like there's so much more beauty to life, and I
Speaker 3: think being great I just was, you know, because I
Speaker 3: say this all the time, Everyone's like, what was the secret?
Speaker 3: And I was like, I just did the shit other
Speaker 3: people weren't willing to do because I had. I felt
Speaker 3: so much comfort and ease and pain and it was familiar.
Speaker 3: It was weirdly comforting.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a million psychological reasons for that. You
Speaker 1: could talk to a whole lot of people who do
Speaker 1: things like ultra running or other sports where you sit
Speaker 1: in the suffering and it actually feels like healing to
Speaker 1: their brain because of the wiring from what came before.
Speaker 1: You know, I want to talk about what you said
Speaker 1: about greatness. I've been listening to some former athletes talk
Speaker 1: about greatness as a goal being inherently unhealthy, because the
Speaker 1: pursuit of greatness as an achievement ultimately feels hollow once
Speaker 1: you've gotten to where you thought was going to solve
Speaker 1: all the problems.
Speaker 2: And you know, listening to Megan Rappino and Sue Bird and.
Speaker 1: Aby Wambach talk about it feels amazing standing on the podium,
Speaker 1: It feels amazing that night celebrating, and the very next morning,
Speaker 1: even as you try to continue the celebration, the predominant
Speaker 1: feeling is I want to.
Speaker 2: Do it again. Now I got to go do it again.
Speaker 2: Now I got to figure out how to do it again.
Speaker 1: So can you pursue greatness and have the process or
Speaker 1: the journey be the thing that you're actually seeking as
Speaker 1: opposed to the end results. Because your medals are in
Speaker 1: a ziplock bag in your closet, clearly that's not what
Speaker 1: you were actually going for.
Speaker 3: You don't see jerseys hanging up in my office, right,
Speaker 3: I see my kids. I think that's the greatest trophy
Speaker 3: I won is being called the mom. So I don't know.
Speaker 3: I think we have We all have a different why,
Speaker 3: I guess, and you know, I have a lot to
Speaker 3: unpack and as I'm on this journey of self discovery
Speaker 3: and actually choosing what I want because for a long
Speaker 3: time a lot of things were out of my control,
Speaker 3: it was not my choice. So like what, Well, you
Speaker 3: don't choose your coach, you don't choose your teams, your circumstances,
Speaker 3: or where you have to live, or how you have
Speaker 3: to get on a plane, or your schedule. Every single day,
Speaker 3: I choose nothing. I was a machine. I was told
Speaker 3: to get up to be here, then to do this.
Speaker 3: This is like the playbook. This is how you stay.
Speaker 3: You know, like it's it's a different.
Speaker 1: Some people like that and feel a little lost when
Speaker 1: they retire and have an open day in front of them.
Speaker 1: Did you like that ever at the time, like you said,
Speaker 1: you're a machine and you were built for that, or
Speaker 1: did you always feel like I'm willing to do this,
Speaker 1: but I look forward to a time when I will
Speaker 1: get my own choice.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I for me, I just never put so much weight
Speaker 3: on what I did. I mean, they say the greatest
Speaker 3: athletes of all time have short term memory, and I
Speaker 3: just like I didn't overthink. I didn't you know, I
Speaker 3: always knew that if I made one mistake, that made
Speaker 3: me human, But what I did after that mistake would
Speaker 3: decide the fate of that game. Did one mistake turn
Speaker 3: into five? Did I dump it?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 3: There's just so many things that just worked for me.
Speaker 3: I was a little less emotional in terms of I
Speaker 3: just knew. I wasn't crying cancer there. I was like, Okay,
Speaker 3: we lose this game, Like damn, that sucks because I'm
Speaker 3: a competitor and I want to win. But it's not
Speaker 3: like what I do after the game and how I
Speaker 3: show up for the people in the stands that paid
Speaker 3: for that type of entertainment was more about who I
Speaker 3: was than what my performance was for ninety minutes. Like
Speaker 3: when I'm pissed off at the world and I want
Speaker 3: to throw shit and walk into the locker room. A
Speaker 3: hundred people are there paying, you know, more than a hundred,
Speaker 3: but like this matters to them. This moment of interaction
Speaker 3: is what they've been dreaming for and waiting for a
Speaker 3: long time, and it's my responsibility and my privilege to
Speaker 3: make that a priority. So for me, it was really
Speaker 3: always it became about the people and the fans because
Speaker 3: I knew what it was like to not belong. I
Speaker 3: knew what it was like to feel as an outsider
Speaker 3: and unsafe. So if I can make the walls of
Speaker 3: that stadium carrying opening and accepting I'm doing something greater
Speaker 3: than the sport could ever give me, it's purpose. And
Speaker 3: I carried that with me forever, and it's instilled in
Speaker 3: everything I do. My weight is not on championship games
Speaker 3: or medals or this and that, because it really left me.
Speaker 3: It really left me damaged. I don't know a nicer
Speaker 3: way to put that. Yeah, it's called the blues. Like
Speaker 3: we work. You know, people are like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: the World Cup. You know how many years when in
Speaker 3: a lifetime went into that tournament, and then once you win,
Speaker 3: it's like, okay, now what.
Speaker 1: The post Olympic blues is very real thing that a
Speaker 1: lot of people talk about. And that's the result of
Speaker 1: achievement culture. Once you've achieved a thing, if it didn't
Speaker 1: all your problems, which it usually doesn't, now here you
Speaker 1: are with all the problems you had before and not
Speaker 1: the goal anymore.
Speaker 3: We're going to take a quick break when we come
Speaker 3: back more.
Speaker 1: With Ashlyn Harris, it doesn't feel like you prioritized achievement
Speaker 1: quite the same way a lot of other athletes did,
Speaker 1: but it still was very much a part of your
Speaker 1: life and it was the thing that kept you moving
Speaker 1: toward whatever the next practice was, whatever the next game was.
Speaker 1: When you're done with soccer, you've moved beyond soccer. How
Speaker 1: do you find a way to make life be a
Speaker 1: series of processes and journeys as opposed.
Speaker 2: To needing to have some goal at every turn.
Speaker 3: You know, I had to do a lot of work,
Speaker 3: and I don't say that lightly. I've had to do
Speaker 3: a lot of work. And I'm still on this journey
Speaker 3: of self discovery and I'm still on this evolution of
Speaker 3: who I want to be. And am I there yet?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 3: And I think we're never always quite there yet. But
Speaker 3: I'll say this, I don't chase so much of the extremes,
Speaker 3: highs and lows that sport brings us, which is a
Speaker 3: beautiful thing and a curse all at the same time.
Speaker 3: I actually am trying to find purpose and meaning and
Speaker 3: really just the small moments in life that I was
Speaker 3: too busy in the pursuit of greatness to even realize
Speaker 3: there is so much beauty and the most simple, mundane
Speaker 3: moments of your life, especially having children. And like, I'm
Speaker 3: not on this journey of perfection. I'm on this journey
Speaker 3: of being at peace. And I think it's not about
Speaker 3: you know, at the beginning, it was like how can
Speaker 3: I be happy? Like I don't know what joy looks
Speaker 3: like or happiness looks like and you know, I did
Speaker 3: a lot with Deepak Chopra, I've done a lot with
Speaker 3: the Wellness Oasis. I've done a lot with my friends
Speaker 3: and healing and interviews. But what I'm realizing more than ever,
Speaker 3: it's just I don't know if I've ever been at peace,
Speaker 3: and it is something I am embodying and living in
Speaker 3: in the moment that if it doesn't bring me that
Speaker 3: type of steadiness and peace, I don't have to choose it.
Speaker 3: Because I think if we, you know, whatever we choose
Speaker 3: to accept, we are choosing, like we are literally choosing
Speaker 3: it every single day. And I'm in a beautiful space
Speaker 3: now where I can pick what I want to do
Speaker 3: and pick my friends, and you know, pick my family
Speaker 3: and pick my partner, and all of it is going
Speaker 3: to matter to bring you know, these walls in my
Speaker 3: house security and safety and ease and love and kindness.
Speaker 3: And to me, that is the biggest win.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how do you reconcile your pursuit of excellence?
Speaker 1: I've heard you talk in a lot of places about
Speaker 1: like you want to show your kids what it means
Speaker 1: to be strong and powerful and emotional and complex and complicated.
Speaker 1: It's not perfection you want to show them, but it
Speaker 1: is excellence. How do you reconcile that with the inevitabilities
Speaker 1: of motherhood, which is mistakes happen, accidents are common, Plans change,
Speaker 1: things break because I am a bit of a control freak,
Speaker 1: and so watching people navigate parenthood and how many times
Speaker 1: there's a plan and it falls apart immediately before you've
Speaker 1: even left the house.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh my god, I would not be
Speaker 2: able to handle it.
Speaker 1: So how do you adjust your standard of living from
Speaker 1: when it was just you to all these people that
Speaker 1: are now a part.
Speaker 2: Of your life.
Speaker 3: I think having children have really softened me. It has
Speaker 3: changed my perspective greatly. It is one of the hardest
Speaker 3: and most beautiful things you can do. And both you
Speaker 3: know each day presents something different. But I do feel
Speaker 3: that the way I see the world is very different
Speaker 3: than before I had kids, and I am so much
Speaker 3: more like I check myself is like I have two
Speaker 3: kids that are looking at me every single day for
Speaker 3: guidance and understanding in a world that's very cruel. So
Speaker 3: I yeah, I have this insane purpose not to overcorrect
Speaker 3: because I think, I think, and this is I talk
Speaker 3: about this and therapy quite often is when you come
Speaker 3: from a background of trauma, most parents and people try
Speaker 3: to overcorrect, and I think that can be toxic too. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and yeah, I it's like smotherings.
Speaker 1: It's like everything's gonna be so perfect, I'm gonna nail
Speaker 1: it so hard, and then they're projecting a whole bunch
Speaker 1: of new shit.
Speaker 2: Exactly for their kids exactly.
Speaker 3: So I think for me, it's just been this beautiful
Speaker 3: exploration of just figuring it out as I go and
Speaker 3: there's nothing wrong with that, and being so humbled and
Speaker 3: open even when I get it wrong, to make sure
Speaker 3: I'm apologizing and making sure I'm holding myself accountable, and
Speaker 3: I'm just I'm actually raising my kids to be good adults,
Speaker 3: you know. And I think that is the hardest thing
Speaker 3: to do. And I don't have the secret sauce, but
Speaker 3: like I think, time is the greatest gift you can
Speaker 3: give someone, So showing up for my kids is all
Speaker 3: I can do to continue to help them build these
Speaker 3: beautiful lives. And for me to be a small part
Speaker 3: of that, it's really been such a joy and a gift.
Speaker 3: And I love being a mom.
Speaker 1: Yeah, time an example, right, I think there are parents
Speaker 1: who think do as I say, and the kids are
Speaker 1: always going to do as you do. And I know
Speaker 1: that it was hard for you to choose something different
Speaker 1: than what you had built. You built a marriage and
Speaker 1: kids and a life that was something you thought you
Speaker 1: always wanted, and you've said you looked back and you thought,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this is a decade of building something,
Speaker 1: and now I'm in it and it's not for me.
Speaker 2: It's not what I want.
Speaker 1: Knowing that you live your life publicly, both as an
Speaker 1: athlete and as a podcaster, or and as someone who
Speaker 1: is wide open quite literally, the name of your show
Speaker 1: about your struggles and your life and your challenge is
Speaker 1: what fears did you have about getting a divorce very
Speaker 1: publicly from someone everybody knows as well and starting anew
Speaker 1: in a way with a new partner. What did you
Speaker 1: worry about in terms of it or did you worry
Speaker 1: about what others might think?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think you know, for so long your brain
Speaker 3: lashed as a team. You know, you've you've got to
Speaker 3: play this role and you've got to you know, you've
Speaker 3: got to do your part, and you know not every time.
Speaker 3: Do you like that role or do you like that part?
Speaker 3: And I just like, I think my biggest concern has
Speaker 3: always and my priority has always been my teams, and
Speaker 3: then it became my kids. And I think most people
Speaker 3: who've experienced big changes and shifts, I just constantly felt
Speaker 3: I was losing who I was in the process and
Speaker 3: I wasn't making enough space for the things that I wanted.
Speaker 3: And I think it's a really selfish thing to do.
Speaker 3: I think it's a brave thing to do. And I
Speaker 3: know I hurt like a lot of people in the process,
Speaker 3: and that is something like I have to learn to
Speaker 3: deal with and cope with, but also like I found
Speaker 3: myself in the process, and I can't apologize for that.
Speaker 3: I think for far too long, you know, people live
Speaker 3: this life because they feel they have to, and then
Speaker 3: you know, when they're in their seventies and eighties, and
Speaker 3: it's a little more convene than leaving, Like I just
Speaker 3: didn't want to feel that. And I think a lot
Speaker 3: of criticism comes with people saying, well, you know, I
Speaker 3: take a lot of the heat and I'm the one
Speaker 3: that did you know, did this? And I'm the one
Speaker 3: that put my kids in a broken home. But sometimes
Speaker 3: it's like, but I was already broken in the process.
Speaker 3: So what would I have projected on those children building
Speaker 3: this life and bringing them into it and hating it,
Speaker 3: Like my children would carry that more than you know,
Speaker 3: a home where I feel safe and I feel happy
Speaker 3: and I feel you know that I have purpose and
Speaker 3: I have space to be exactly who I want to be.
Speaker 3: And I think, yeah, it's hard, and it's constantly hard
Speaker 3: because you know you don't you don't you love someone
Speaker 3: and you try these things out and sometimes like you
Speaker 3: build these lives and you're kind of strangers within the
Speaker 3: walls of them, and you have to make decisions. And
Speaker 3: I made a decision and I, you know, it was
Speaker 3: what's best for me, And I know that sounds so selfish,
Speaker 3: but I needed to because for so long I sacrificed
Speaker 3: my whole life and everything for the team, for the family,
Speaker 3: for the partnership, for the kids. And you know, you
Speaker 3: look at yourself in the mirror and you're like, who
Speaker 3: theck have you become?
Speaker 1: Well, I think you said it selfish, but I think
Speaker 1: it's selfish potentially in the moment, and then it's generous
Speaker 1: in the long term. And I think a lot of
Speaker 1: I have personal friends and I've heard a lot of
Speaker 1: people talk about staying together for the kids, but ultimately,
Speaker 1: what you're showing your kids is unhappiness, dissatisfaction, feeling stock
Speaker 1: making a choice once and then living in it forever
Speaker 1: instead of the opportunity. When I was younger, I used
Speaker 1: to think divorce was a failure, and now I think
Speaker 1: every day you wake up and you make a choice,
Speaker 1: and if you keep choosing that person every day, that's great.
Speaker 1: If too many days in a row happen where you
Speaker 1: wouldn't choose them anymore, then do you just stay in
Speaker 1: that forever? That's not life for anyone, even for a
Speaker 1: partner that still wants to be with you. If you
Speaker 1: don't want to be with them, that's not the best
Speaker 1: that they can get or that you can get.
Speaker 2: But everybody thinks they know what everybody else is going through.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how do you prevent yourself from getting lost in
Speaker 1: the opinions of others or the feelings of others about
Speaker 1: the choices that you've made and the life that you have,
Speaker 1: Knowing that they don't know about it, and knowing that
Speaker 1: you should just be able to say they don't know shit,
Speaker 1: who cares?
Speaker 2: That's hard as someone who's in the public spotlight.
Speaker 1: It's hard for me when I think people misunderstand me
Speaker 1: or misrepresent me, and.
Speaker 2: I know that that happens to you sometimes.
Speaker 3: Oh it happens all the time. And it is a
Speaker 3: very cruel world out there. And I have learned a
Speaker 3: lot about tabloids. I've learned a lot about friends. I've
Speaker 3: learned a lot about people at their core. I've learned
Speaker 3: who people are when moments get hard. And I know
Speaker 3: the greatest gift that I've learned through this process is
Speaker 3: knowing who will show up when shit's hard, and I
Speaker 3: think that has been invaluable for me to make smart,
Speaker 3: educated decisions about who I will bring with me in
Speaker 3: this next chapter of my life I'm building, and who
Speaker 3: I absolutely won't. And I think the Internet is a
Speaker 3: really toxic place to live. I have very clear boundaries
Speaker 3: around it now. I think people are extremely hurtful and
Speaker 3: they do it on purpose, and it's hard to not
Speaker 3: let those things penetrate because I am sensitive and I
Speaker 3: have built a life and a reputation based on love
Speaker 3: and kindness, and currency is in those moments of connection
Speaker 3: and interaction and making this world a better place, especially
Speaker 3: for the queer community. It's very It's the very community
Speaker 3: that ended up stabbing me in the back and telling
Speaker 3: me I was wrong and telling me I was this
Speaker 3: and that and all these things. And yeah, it's like
Speaker 3: it's like whiplash. It's like, oh my god, Like how
Speaker 3: could people say this? How could people? No one's lived
Speaker 3: in my walls, no one's lived the life. And let
Speaker 3: me be very clear, like, even if four people are
Speaker 3: living in the walls of a home, they're all having
Speaker 3: different experiences and we have to be able to make
Speaker 3: room for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I do.
Speaker 3: It has been hard. I mean still to this day,
Speaker 3: it's like, I, you know, it's really hard for me
Speaker 3: to say this, and I'll say this. I haven't said
Speaker 3: this to anyone, but in a place that I felt
Speaker 3: so safe playing soccer. I have not stepped in a
Speaker 3: soccer stadium since. It is actually the place I feel
Speaker 3: the least safe right now, and that's because of the
Speaker 3: people in it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think there's a million reasons why.
Speaker 1: And without knowing the specifics of your life, I think
Speaker 1: there's a million reasons why. It's easy to quote unquote
Speaker 1: pick a side when one side hadn't found someone new
Speaker 1: yet was beloved in soccer had been high achieving, and
Speaker 1: for you to be with a woman who had been
Speaker 1: married to a man, that's the queer community's going to
Speaker 1: make judgments about that. They're going to make judgments about
Speaker 1: her being a beautiful and successful actress, and whether you're
Speaker 1: just reaching for this celebrity and fame and leaving behind
Speaker 1: someone that everybody like. There's a million ways to very
Speaker 1: simply try to turn this into, like you said, a
Speaker 1: tabloid style story with a.
Speaker 2: Villain and a hero.
Speaker 1: And people often do that when they're dissatisfied with their
Speaker 1: own selves and judgment of others feels good. It scratches
Speaker 1: an itch for them because they haven't done the work
Speaker 1: to figure out why they need to pursue that. Right,
Speaker 1: if you're spending your days reading about other people's troubles,
Speaker 1: enjoying the schadenfreud of people that aren't deserving of any
Speaker 1: sort of whiplash, like it's your thing. And I'm not
Speaker 1: saying people can't have opinions, and I'm not saying people
Speaker 1: can't be critical, And sometimes that criticism does show us
Speaker 1: something about ourselves we were unaware of. Sometimes there are
Speaker 1: people on the internet, I'm like, you know what you're right,
Speaker 1: I should probably work on there. Actually, you know what,
Speaker 1: I never thought about that, but now that I realize
Speaker 1: I'm giving off.
Speaker 2: That energy, let me go ahead and fix that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but ultimately you have to then take all that
Speaker 1: and say, I get why they quote unquote picked aside,
Speaker 1: I get why they're being judgmental, and what is my
Speaker 1: option for my life moving forward that both acknowledges that
Speaker 1: this space that was once safe isn't right now and
Speaker 1: finds a space that is, or finds people that are,
Speaker 1: or finds things that are in the hopeset. And I
Speaker 1: hope for you that you can return to that space
Speaker 1: and that it feels like a place for you again
Speaker 1: because you brought so much to it.
Speaker 2: Do you have a toolbox for.
Speaker 1: Those moments where you are looking around and you're thinking,
Speaker 1: I figured out how to get through this that you
Speaker 1: could help someone else with. Are there tips you could
Speaker 1: give people who are in that moment where it feels
Speaker 1: overwhelming of criticism or places that used to be there
Speaker 1: as in arts anymore.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll say this, so I'll say the best thing
Speaker 3: everyone could have done for me is shut the door
Speaker 3: on me. Because you learn a lot about yourself when
Speaker 3: you're in a quiet room for a very long time
Speaker 3: and you don't have anyone to turn to. That's when
Speaker 3: the real work begins. And I was it was a
Speaker 3: privilege for me to sit in that type of darkness
Speaker 3: and that isolation to really learn who I am and
Speaker 3: what I'm made of and what I want. So, you know,
Speaker 3: you talk about this burning into the fucking ground and
Speaker 3: rising from the ashes, like I get it, and I
Speaker 3: don't feel sorry about it. I don't feel sorry for
Speaker 3: myself about it. It was the greatest gift that everyone
Speaker 3: could give to me, because I don't know if I
Speaker 3: would have done the work I've been doing. I don't
Speaker 3: know if I would have seen the world this clearly
Speaker 3: I did, And I was so reliant on other people
Speaker 3: to make me happy for so long that I now
Speaker 3: have dropped that and now I'm learning in real time
Speaker 3: and understanding the things that serve me and make me
Speaker 3: happy and the things that don't. And I think that's
Speaker 3: a great gift to all of us. Is isolation will
Speaker 3: teach you a lot about yourself. And maybe I enjoyed
Speaker 3: it a little too much, but I am very particular
Speaker 3: now of the people I allow to come into my
Speaker 3: space and not. And I'll tell you this, Sarah one
Speaker 3: hundred times over. I rather feel safe in the walls
Speaker 3: of my house than in that stadium. So now the
Speaker 3: roles have reversed, and I hope one day I can
Speaker 3: feel the sense of belonging and safety that I brought
Speaker 3: to people as a performer and a player. And something
Speaker 3: I don't take lightly is soccer saved my life. But
Speaker 3: also like I am now living a life that I imagined,
Speaker 3: and I feel the safety in my home and purpose
Speaker 3: here for the first time, and I hope eventually it
Speaker 3: balances out. But what I've learned about trauma and safety
Speaker 3: is I don't have to put myself in those positions
Speaker 3: and go three steps backward. I will know when that
Speaker 3: time is right. And I've had these conversations with Bri.
Speaker 3: It's like a deep bread yeah, a deep dark cover
Speaker 3: or a deep dark dungeon, like a basement. And right
Speaker 3: now the basement is locked and I'm not whole enough
Speaker 3: to stand in it. But when i am, I can
Speaker 3: figure that out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right. Can I ask you a question? Yes?
Speaker 3: Please?
Speaker 1: The way you talked about and we're almost done here,
Speaker 1: but I'm curious the way you talked about the sort
Speaker 1: of people shutting the door on you and then you
Speaker 1: finding yourself in that dark room. It does feel a
Speaker 1: little them versus me. Did you feel like during any
Speaker 1: of this moment where you're sort of uprooting your life
Speaker 1: and struggling to figure out why am I unhappy?
Speaker 2: What do I want? Who am I?
Speaker 1: You did an interview with Carrie Champion where you said
Speaker 1: I don't like myself. You didn't like who you had become,
Speaker 1: so clearly you're going through a lot. Is there a
Speaker 1: part of you that feels responsible or takes responsibility for
Speaker 1: the ways that you interacted with people in that moment
Speaker 1: too that caused them to react that way, or does
Speaker 1: it feel like, no matter how you view it, it's
Speaker 1: you versus everyone. They were against you, as opposed to
Speaker 1: a collaborative process whereby you were maybe hard to be around,
Speaker 1: or you were misunderstood, or you were acting in a
Speaker 1: way that they didn't understand. And now you can look
Speaker 1: back and say, oh, I found myself and I'm happy,
Speaker 1: But at the time it was disruptive for others too,
Speaker 1: and they weren't sure how to receive it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it just was a really hard thing
Speaker 3: because so many of our lives were interconnected. So I
Speaker 3: don't think it's in us first them. I think it's
Speaker 3: a reality of the state we live in. We're in
Speaker 3: a cancel cold sure, and you know it's.
Speaker 2: Even your friends. Though you felt like that was part
Speaker 2: of what they were doing.
Speaker 3: I don't think people really knew what to do. I
Speaker 3: genuinely think that that's more of what it was because
Speaker 3: we were this, you know, this couple, and we loved
Speaker 3: each other so much when we were together for a
Speaker 3: really long time and we were teammates and kids together. Like,
Speaker 3: I think everyone was just like, what the just happened?
Speaker 3: So I don't I don't think it's like a them
Speaker 3: versus us. I just think that the tabloids created a
Speaker 3: lot of isolation where it felt like that, Yeah, it
Speaker 3: felt like I had a big target and they wanted
Speaker 3: to destroy me at all costs. And I think that
Speaker 3: was the hardest thing. You know, it was just the
Speaker 3: tabloids will eat you up and spit you out, and
Speaker 3: that's just that's good, that's good clickbait.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's business. It takes somebody demonize them, get everybody.
Speaker 1: When we've seen it across like what we saw with
Speaker 1: like the Justin Belton Lively. We literally saw the behind
Speaker 1: the scenes of how that happens and how it's done
Speaker 1: with intention to turn everyone against someone, and so much
Speaker 1: easier to pick a black and white story where one
Speaker 1: person's bad and the other's good that it is to
Speaker 1: get into the messy reality of life.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I just think that that the tabloids are
Speaker 3: really what made me feel isolated and ashamed. I think
Speaker 3: that's because you read it and you see it, and
Speaker 3: you see what you know these people have to say
Speaker 3: about and you start believing it, you know. So it's
Speaker 3: a really dark place to live in. And then I
Speaker 3: just had to get rid of it all, get rid
Speaker 3: of my phone, get rid of my apps, because it's
Speaker 3: just that's not who I am, and that's right. I
Speaker 3: don't need validation and I don't need other people to
Speaker 3: tell me who I am or who I've become or
Speaker 3: this or that, Like I had to do the work
Speaker 3: and search for it. But the biggest thing I'll say
Speaker 3: is we definitely don't create enough space to give people grace.
Speaker 3: I think we're all learning in real time and are
Speaker 3: there things I want to do differently or wish I
Speaker 3: could have done differently, of course, I think we all
Speaker 3: do that. I mean, it was not an easy process,
Speaker 3: and you know, I learn from it and I'm stronger
Speaker 3: because of it, and you just got to keep it pushing,
Speaker 3: Like life is such a gift. Every day I wake
Speaker 3: up and there's another sunrise. I get another day with
Speaker 3: my kids, and I don't want to waste that. I
Speaker 3: don't want to waste energy of the expectations people are
Speaker 3: placing on me when they don't know me. Like, that's
Speaker 3: something I can't carry. I can't carry everyone's trauma. I'm
Speaker 3: trying to unpack and work through my own. So yeah,
Speaker 3: the projection is quite hard, but like I get it.
Speaker 2: The work is the thing that you keep coming back to,
Speaker 2: And that's what I want to end with.
Speaker 1: You have taken so much care intending to your mental
Speaker 1: and physical health throughout your life, in different stages and
Speaker 1: in different ways. How do you continue the work and
Speaker 1: how do you recommend to others that they find the
Speaker 1: time to be a intentional enough to see themselves and
Speaker 1: decide what they want.
Speaker 2: To keep and what they want to fix.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think for now I'm actually present in my body.
Speaker 3: I used to always like do these words of affirmation,
Speaker 3: and I did it all the time, looking at myself
Speaker 3: in the mirror, and I'm like, well, if I tell
Speaker 3: myself I'm enough over and over and over, maybe I'll
Speaker 3: believe it. But I think just really being in my
Speaker 3: body now that when things like and having good communication,
Speaker 3: when something like with myself, when I feel something or
Speaker 3: something bumps up against me, I'm able to really sit
Speaker 3: with it and unpack it and not necessarily project it
Speaker 3: or push it down. Because I have a game the
Speaker 3: next day, I don't have that distraction anymore. So I
Speaker 3: can actually be in my body, which is such a
Speaker 3: beautiful thing because I can listen to it. So when
Speaker 3: it does, you know, bump me in a weird way,
Speaker 3: or I feel this you know, moment of ugh, I
Speaker 3: can actually sit with it and be like, why why
Speaker 3: are we feeling this way? What is it triggering? Is
Speaker 3: this your seven year old self that's hiding in the
Speaker 3: closet that's coming out or are we going to go
Speaker 3: sit in that closet with her and tell her she
Speaker 3: going to be okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think it's a real beautiful thing to know yourself
Speaker 3: well enough. Now I'm going backwards in time, being like, oh,
Speaker 3: this is triggering this response.
Speaker 1: What needs to heal so that next time that doesn't
Speaker 1: come up correct. Yeah, it's really powerful. I really feel
Speaker 1: for people who still have the distractions or don't have
Speaker 1: the time to look at it, because that changes everything
Speaker 1: when you decide to look and handle it differently. Right,
Speaker 1: last question for you, If you look beyond the goalie
Speaker 1: box at Ashland Harris, you'll find what.
Speaker 2: I feel like.
Speaker 3: I'm just a connector through and through. I live life
Speaker 3: through connection. It's my greatest asset and gift is to
Speaker 3: see people. And I just really really love the human experience.
Speaker 3: I don't know how to say it better than that,
Speaker 3: but I love the fact that I'm a connector and
Speaker 3: I want to carry that out with me forever. That's
Speaker 3: what my late grandmother taught me. And there's a sense
Speaker 3: of gentleness to be able to care for other people
Speaker 3: even when you're going through this exploration stage. But I
Speaker 3: find it very healing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. Well, thanks so much for giving
Speaker 2: us some time and being so wide open.
Speaker 3: Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's always nice to
Speaker 3: be with you.
Speaker 2: It's my favorite.
Speaker 1: Good game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports
Speaker 1: production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You
Speaker 1: could find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network.
Speaker 1: Our producers are alex Asie and Misha Jones. Our executive
Speaker 1: producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rutterer.
Speaker 1: Our editors are Emily Rutterer, Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch, and
Speaker 1: Gianna Palmer. Our associate producers Lucy Jones and I'm Your
Speaker 1: Host Sarah Spain