Speaker 1: Everton Wagstaff is a source of inspiration to me that
Speaker 1: I am just super grateful to have his talk that
Speaker 1: he gives at the end of the episode that you're
Speaker 1: about to hear, which was just stream of consciousness. Man,
Speaker 1: he drops some knowledge that I really needed to hear,
Speaker 1: and I think a lot of other people do too,
Speaker 1: So please listen all the way through to the interview
Speaker 1: I did with Everton Wagstaff back when it first aired
Speaker 1: on February twenty seventh of twenty seventeen. The good news
Speaker 1: is finally, after suffering through over two decades of wrongful imprisonment,
Speaker 1: Everton received a fourteen point six million dollar settlement in
Speaker 1: June of twenty seventeen. Everton, you deserve all the happiness
Speaker 1: in the world and I wish you blessings on blessings.
Speaker 1: You are a hero to me. With the police banging
Speaker 1: on the door, open up.
Speaker 2: The choice to be in that lineup was the last
Speaker 2: choice I made as a free man. A year later,
Speaker 2: I ended up writing the system.
Speaker 3: I'm going to be one of those people who everyone
Speaker 3: in the world is going to think as a monster
Speaker 3: or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life,
Speaker 3: and I'm just going to have to come to peace
Speaker 3: with that.
Speaker 2: Somebody was able to look at my picture in the
Speaker 2: database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't.
Speaker 2: I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they
Speaker 2: might have to play in my hanging. They had been
Speaker 2: told that two prison officers would have to participate in
Speaker 2: my execution. Now I walked back inside that prison for
Speaker 2: the last time. Man all help broke loose.
Speaker 1: But in nineteen ninety two, Everton Wagstaff was arrested and
Speaker 1: charged with the kidnapping, rape, and murder of a sixteen
Speaker 1: year old girl, Jennifer Negron in Brooklyn, New York. Wagstaff
Speaker 1: and another man who he didn't know, Reginald Connor, were
Speaker 1: both convicted for the girl's brutal killing. His arrest and
Speaker 1: conviction were based almost entirely on the word of a
Speaker 1: drug addicted sex worker, a heroin addict named Brunilda Capella,
Speaker 1: who claimed falsely that she discovered the body.
Speaker 3: He's spent twenty three years behind bars, and spent even
Speaker 3: longer than that fighting a legal battle against a justice system. Tonight,
Speaker 3: this Brooklyn man, he is finally free. Everton Wagstaff's wrongful
Speaker 3: conviction has been overturned.
Speaker 1: He ultimately served almost twenty three years in prison and
Speaker 1: survived based on an incredible positive attitude and a will
Speaker 1: to live and persevere. He was exonerated in twenty fourteen,
Speaker 1: and he's here today. This is his story.
Speaker 2: I was so curious about coming to this Clenchion America.
Speaker 2: A year later, I ended up writing the system.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flomm.
Speaker 1: Today's guest is the one and only Everton Wagstaff. And
Speaker 1: you'll understand why I say the one and only after
Speaker 1: you get to hear his incredible story and his unique
Speaker 1: perspective and wonderful attitude about everything that he's been through
Speaker 1: and about the world in general. Everton, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me so, Everton. We have a
Speaker 1: tradition here at Wrongful Conviction. We start at the beginning
Speaker 1: and then we worked through the whole story right to
Speaker 1: the present, starting back at the beginning. You're originally from Jamaica, right, yes,
Speaker 1: and not Jamaica Queens.
Speaker 2: Jamaica, actual Jamaican Island. Did Jamaica Island?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I know. Everybody's always giving you a hard
Speaker 1: time about the Jamaican bobsled team. But that wasn't you.
Speaker 1: That was some of the guys. Tell me about growing
Speaker 1: up in Jamaica. First of all, did you have a
Speaker 1: happy life there? What was it like?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was happy. I grew up with my grand appearance.
Speaker 2: We pretty much have basic necessities. Weren't like in Nita
Speaker 2: for any thing, you know, prett to live off the land,
Speaker 2: nothing to complain about. It was fairly fairly well.
Speaker 1: And you came here in your young twenties. What led
Speaker 1: you to make the decision to come to New York
Speaker 1: it's a big change.
Speaker 2: Well, you know what, I've always heard about America And
Speaker 2: I said, whoa, what was? And I was so curious
Speaker 2: about coming to this country. I've been seeing all these things.
Speaker 1: Had you ever been here before? No, you've never been here,
Speaker 1: and you just decided to move exactly, pretty brave.
Speaker 2: And you know, I was curious about here. But a
Speaker 2: year later I ended up writing the system.
Speaker 1: I mean unfortunately, Yeah, I mean that's a rude awakening,
Speaker 1: like very not welcome to New York, right, exactly the
Speaker 1: opposite of welcome exactly exactly. So you were living in Brooklyn, right,
Speaker 1: when you got here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was living in Brooklyn. I that in the
Speaker 2: Bronx with my mom, you know. Then I live on
Speaker 2: my own in Long Island with a former girlfriend.
Speaker 1: So you moved around a little bit, yes, And what
Speaker 1: were you doing to make a living while you were
Speaker 1: here in the beginning, Well.
Speaker 2: I used to do a little construction with my step dad.
Speaker 2: He used to be one of those guys that'd helped
Speaker 2: with the Brooklyn Bridge.
Speaker 1: So you came to America in what year, late.
Speaker 2: Eighty nine, ninety early nineties, and.
Speaker 1: A year later everything went wrong.
Speaker 2: Everything went wrong, Yeah, which.
Speaker 1: Is a crazy story. I mean, there was a lot
Speaker 1: of crime in New York back then, and there was
Speaker 1: a lot of pressure on the police to solve crimes. Yes,
Speaker 1: And there was a terrible crime that happened at that time,
Speaker 1: a young girl, sixteen year old girl was kidnapped, raped,
Speaker 1: and murdered. So naturally there's going to be a lot
Speaker 1: of pressure on the cops to resolve this and restore
Speaker 1: some faith or some calm to the community. And they
Speaker 1: ended up getting not only one wrong guy, but two
Speaker 1: wrong guys. They ended up getting you and another guy, Yes,
Speaker 1: And they managed to arrest and ultimately convict you without
Speaker 1: any physical evidence exactly, which is it's a crazy story.
Speaker 1: I mean, we hear so many crazy stories here on
Speaker 1: wrongful conviction. Take us through it. So we're wor you
Speaker 1: did they come and kick in your door or like
Speaker 1: did how did you end up getting arrested and what
Speaker 1: were you thinking at the time.
Speaker 2: Actually I was on a payphone in East New York
Speaker 2: and and my car came up and took me off
Speaker 2: the phone and said that there and said it was
Speaker 2: going to take me to the precinct to check something out.
Speaker 2: And that was it. I ended up getting interrogated for
Speaker 2: this crime. The ax me where I was between such
Speaker 2: and such a time at tim I was nowhere in
Speaker 2: the area. I was in Long Island. And they keep
Speaker 2: saying that they have a witness Hooken said that I
Speaker 2: commit a crime and before and so on, and I
Speaker 2: tell them and I didn't commit a crime, And they
Speaker 2: have the wrong person. So they had met the person
Speaker 2: from at least from about twelve or eleven in the
Speaker 2: afternoon until about one o'clock twelve one o'clock midnight. So
Speaker 2: I put me on this line up to have this
Speaker 2: girl came in. I know who it was at that time.
Speaker 2: Came in and they said I was identifying as another
Speaker 2: person who committed the crime. And I was like, this
Speaker 2: is impossible. I didn't commit a crime if nobody to speak,
Speaker 2: but I was not in the era. It's that you
Speaker 2: guys said I was name in that era.
Speaker 1: At the time we were interrogating. Did you have a
Speaker 1: lawyer or anybody else? No, and no lawyer, nothing, And
Speaker 1: so you're new in this country, yes, and it's got
Speaker 1: to be totally bewildering and overwhelming. Did they threaten you.
Speaker 2: Well, it didn't make a lot of fun of I mean,
Speaker 2: because I told them that I needed to speak to
Speaker 2: a lawyer and they asked me who I want me
Speaker 2: to get that want me to get to Kobe and
Speaker 2: Myers or something like that.
Speaker 1: For those of you, for those of you who aren't
Speaker 1: from New York, to Phobean Wires is sort of a
Speaker 1: punchline because they're always advertising on TV anyway, That's why
Speaker 1: he brought it up. So, yeah, so they're making fun
Speaker 1: of you. They're probably bored too, because you're in there
Speaker 1: for twelve hours, right, So did they give you anything
Speaker 1: to eat or drink or anything like that? So you're
Speaker 1: just sitting in this room for twelve hours. They're coming
Speaker 1: in and out, and the typical interrogation, no videotaping, no nothing, nothing.
Speaker 1: But you didn't admit to anything.
Speaker 2: No, you know, I wouldn't admit to something I didn't do.
Speaker 1: And ultimately the whole situation got really surreal, right because
Speaker 1: they were so desperate it seems like in retrospect to
Speaker 1: get a conviction that they went to pretty extraordinary lengths
Speaker 1: to frame you. And talk to me about the other
Speaker 1: guy who was convicted at the time.
Speaker 2: Oh, his name was Reginald 'conna. Actually didn't know reginal'conna.
Speaker 2: We were never a friend, never hang out there or
Speaker 2: anything like that. Too much put us together.
Speaker 1: So Reginald Cotton was your co defendant in the trial.
Speaker 1: He also was convicted. I was wondering whether you guys
Speaker 1: had even known each other, but no, it's just random.
Speaker 1: Were you in jail awaiting trial? Were you out on bail?
Speaker 2: I was in jail in Rockers Island, in.
Speaker 1: Rikers Island, Yes, that's a hell of a place to
Speaker 1: be in jail. Was it as bad back then as
Speaker 1: it is now?
Speaker 2: It was worse then.
Speaker 1: How long were you in Rikers awaiting the.
Speaker 2: Trial about a year and a few months ago.
Speaker 1: If you say that very casual, it's a long time,
Speaker 1: especially in that place. It was how much was bail?
Speaker 2: Ye was? Then Bill said nobu?
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I guess it was a kidnapping raider a child. Yes,
Speaker 1: So yeah, they didn't send any bells. So you're stuck there.
Speaker 1: A year and a quarter goes by and you finally
Speaker 1: brought the trial. First of all, we tried together separately
Speaker 1: to get it together with this guy who you didn't know.
Speaker 1: Had you met him in Rikers? Was he there as well?
Speaker 2: Actually, when I went to court, that's when I first
Speaker 2: saw him. I know that we were charged to get
Speaker 2: it right. I didn't see we didn't say, in the
Speaker 2: same facility when we were on the island.
Speaker 1: So you didn't get to know each other at all.
Speaker 2: On the island. No, it's when I went to the
Speaker 2: court that I saw him there and I was asking
Speaker 2: what's going on? And he was clueless.
Speaker 1: I of course he was because he was innocent too,
Speaker 1: exactly right. So you your partners in this nightmare, so
Speaker 1: to speak, strangers who were thrown together pretty much, Yes,
Speaker 1: by this nightmare of police and prosecutorial misconduct and various
Speaker 1: other factors that led to you being stuck in this situation.
Speaker 1: You're such a positive person and you have such an
Speaker 1: amazing outlook, but when you went to trial, you must
Speaker 1: have been somewhat skeptical because by now you had been
Speaker 1: you knew you were innocent. It seemed obvious from everything
Speaker 1: that I know about the case, it would be really
Speaker 1: hard for even a corrupt system to say, let's put
Speaker 1: it on this guy. I mean, they knew you were innocent.
Speaker 1: Did you think that justice would be served? Or were
Speaker 1: you at this point thinking I'm going down, They're going
Speaker 1: to do whatever they have to do to get me.
Speaker 2: Actually, when I was on let's reverse back back to
Speaker 2: Ruckas Island. When I was on the island, I pretty
Speaker 2: much I wasn't really doing anything to help to clear myself.
Speaker 2: I was just saying that they had the run person,
Speaker 2: and eventually they're going to get it right before you
Speaker 2: can go to a nestroyal, because I was saying to
Speaker 2: myself that I did not comment to crime. And there's
Speaker 2: no person in the right mind who's going to come
Speaker 2: and testify it to a crime that I know that
Speaker 2: I didn't come. There's no way, So I wasn't really
Speaker 2: doing anything. I was just like, you know, just like
Speaker 2: probably just hanging out, you know, young twenty one years old.
Speaker 2: I was just hanging out there and said, they're going
Speaker 2: to get it right until when I went to trial.
Speaker 2: I actually had this girl who actually it was not
Speaker 2: in her right mind because she was an addict.
Speaker 1: And let's talk about her for a minute, right, because
Speaker 1: this is where the story gets really crazy. The witness
Speaker 1: against you wasn't just some random person. It was actually
Speaker 1: a heroin addict who was completely strung out, so strong
Speaker 1: out in fact, that she had to be kept in
Speaker 1: a locked room prior to the trial for three days
Speaker 1: so that they would be sure that she would show
Speaker 1: up and be somewhat sober in order to testify. Right,
Speaker 1: we know now that she was used in up to
Speaker 1: twenty cases. They would wheel her out whenever they needed
Speaker 1: somebody to testify against, somebody who they didn't have any
Speaker 1: evidence against. Here would come Bruneil did, the heroin addict,
Speaker 1: and who knows what favors they were doing for her,
Speaker 1: because we know back then in Brooklyn there was a
Speaker 1: lot of framing going on. There were a lot of
Speaker 1: deals being made with witnesses, which could have involved something
Speaker 1: as basic as dropping charge against them, or even favors
Speaker 1: that may have been done that would involve cash or
Speaker 1: drugs or who knows, because this was a pretty big
Speaker 1: favor she was doing them to testify falsely and perjure
Speaker 1: herself to help them resolve a case that they really
Speaker 1: didn't want to have to deal with in the correct manner.
Speaker 1: But the idea that this woman who was obviously morally
Speaker 1: bankrupt and completely just out of her mind exactly would
Speaker 1: be used in twenty cases, I mean, that's something to
Speaker 1: really reflect on and say. And of course it would
Speaker 1: require someone with oversight of the whole situation to be
Speaker 1: able to tie all those together and go, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: how lucky could she be that she witnessed twenty different murders. Incredible,
Speaker 1: But you didn't know about that while you were rikers. No,
Speaker 1: you didn't know that they were going to wheel out
Speaker 1: this heroinautic to testify again. So, in other words, so
Speaker 1: you were actually and you had reason to expect that
Speaker 1: you would be exonerated because you knew they couldn't have
Speaker 1: any evidence against you.
Speaker 2: I didn't come at a crime.
Speaker 1: So you still had faith in the system, and you
Speaker 1: still thought you're going to go to trial, They're going
Speaker 1: to figure out they made a big heart.
Speaker 2: I was even I thought they wasn't going to go
Speaker 2: to a trial. We're going to find out who coming
Speaker 2: to crime before they even took me to trial because
Speaker 2: I didn't come in a crime.
Speaker 1: Right. But the bad news is, as we know that
Speaker 1: when they arrested you, they stopped looking for the guy.
Speaker 1: So you go to trial together. How long did the
Speaker 1: trial last? You had a court appointed lawyer, I'm assuming
Speaker 1: because you didn't have money, and was your lawyer? Did
Speaker 1: he seem interested? Was he competent?
Speaker 2: Was he at that time? I thought he was doing
Speaker 2: his best, you know, because I didn't know pretty much
Speaker 2: anything about to do to show the system and the
Speaker 2: representation one that you should be getting.
Speaker 1: I just did he come to the prison and meet
Speaker 1: with you and interview No, he's shaking his head never. No,
Speaker 1: you're looking at me like I'm crazy, So he never
Speaker 1: came to interview you. I'm actually not a lawyer, but
Speaker 1: I do have some common sense and would seem like
Speaker 1: anybody who's going to represent somebody in a case in
Speaker 1: which their life is literally at stake might want to
Speaker 1: take the time, take one afternoon and say, you know what,
Speaker 1: I'm going to go. I'm gonna skip my golf game
Speaker 1: today and go over to Rikers and see what the
Speaker 1: everthing has to say, see if he's got any information
Speaker 1: that might be helpful. But that didn't happen.
Speaker 2: No, I guess when you're intigends, you know you're not
Speaker 2: that fortunate.
Speaker 1: We know that public defenders are overworked, underpaid, overwhelmed. There
Speaker 1: are a lot of very good ones, but you have
Speaker 1: to be lucky to get one of those. It's almost
Speaker 1: like another it's like a lottery. Then comes the moment,
Speaker 1: so the jury goes out, they come back in.
Speaker 2: If ID my guilty and second degree kidnapping. Because the
Speaker 2: judge initially dismissed the murder, I take away in because
Speaker 2: they said there was an evidence.
Speaker 1: Right and and that's interesting too because the judge, let's
Speaker 1: just reflect on that for a second. The judge refused.
Speaker 2: To submit the murder charge murvidence.
Speaker 1: Because of lack of evidence. That's very powerful words. So
Speaker 1: there was no evidence of that, but he allowed the
Speaker 1: kidnapping charge to go forward. There was no evidence to
Speaker 1: that either. Well the Capella there was Phoni why Brunilda
Speaker 1: Capella and other than that, not only didn't they have
Speaker 1: any physical evidence against you because there was no DNA,
Speaker 1: there was no blood, there was no traces of anything
Speaker 1: or anything, but they also withheld evidence that would have
Speaker 1: proved that you were innocent, yes, at the time, and
Speaker 1: it took you a long time to discover that. So
Speaker 1: the kidnapping charge goes forward. There was a headband, right,
Speaker 1: so this was another phony piece of evidence. There was
Speaker 1: a headband, a black headband, I believe that was found
Speaker 1: in the car, which they claimed.
Speaker 2: Actually they're saying that Cramston investigator discover numerous items inside
Speaker 2: a car, but this particular headband is said belongs to
Speaker 2: the victim. And one of the reasons why the prosecutor
Speaker 2: said it belongs to the victim because they said that
Speaker 2: there was this violence struggling in the car between Meando's
Speaker 2: victim and joining. This violin struggle with the headbund was
Speaker 2: ripped up as a result of the violent confrontation between
Speaker 2: me and the witness, and the evidence proved that this
Speaker 2: car is the car because of this headband. But probably
Speaker 2: a month after the trial are so the headbund was
Speaker 2: distroyed because if it was kept into evidence, it would
Speaker 2: have been tested, I would have proven that did not
Speaker 2: belong to the victim. But one of one's daughter, and
Speaker 2: I think the prosecutors are the police knew this. That's
Speaker 2: why they get rid of it. So there was an
Speaker 2: evidence that even tests right.
Speaker 1: So let's just think about this for a seconds. So
Speaker 1: there's a violent struggle in the car. Obviously you can't
Speaker 1: see everything, but he's a big, strong guy, very muscular guy,
Speaker 1: and there's a sixteen year old girl. So there's a
Speaker 1: violent struggle. But there's no blood, there's no physical evidence.
Speaker 2: No here.
Speaker 1: But there's a head.
Speaker 2: A head.
Speaker 1: That's all that happened exactly. So they have to suspend
Speaker 1: a lot of disbelief to get to that point. But furthermore,
Speaker 1: going off of what you said, later on, it was
Speaker 1: discovered that the owner of the car, the same person
Speaker 1: who said that the car had been at the church
Speaker 1: service until five point thirty in the morning, in which
Speaker 1: case it would have been impossible for this car to
Speaker 1: be used in the crime at the time that the
Speaker 1: only witness said that it was. That same person also
Speaker 1: said that that had been belonged to their daughter. Yes,
Speaker 1: so the problem is they didn't turn that evidence over
Speaker 1: to the defense.
Speaker 2: It was destroyed.
Speaker 1: It was destroyed, but it was found later. I mean,
Speaker 1: they had an interview. The evidence was destroyed, but they
Speaker 1: had an interview with the owner of the car, which
Speaker 1: they did not turn over, and that had to be
Speaker 1: discovered years and years later. Had they turned that over,
Speaker 1: the whole case falls apart.
Speaker 2: Exactly because the detective had gone to her to ask
Speaker 2: about her car and she told him that her car
Speaker 2: could not have been used in her crime because she
Speaker 2: was using it at that particular time. Anything that would
Speaker 2: have underminded people's case was never turned over to us.
Speaker 1: Right. That's again, that's where I really I just I
Speaker 1: have a hard time processing that stuff. You know. It's
Speaker 1: like I don't understand. I've never you know, I have
Speaker 1: a lot of respect for law enforcement. I mean, we
Speaker 1: need we need a justice system, we need prosecutors, we
Speaker 1: need cops. You know. It's like when I was growing
Speaker 1: up in the seventies, there was a bumper sticker that said,
Speaker 1: you don't like cops, Next time you're in trouble, try
Speaker 1: calling a hippie. Right, And so I'm very cognizant of
Speaker 1: the fact that they play a very important role in society,
Speaker 1: and I have a lot of respect for the fact
Speaker 1: that they work at a dangerous job. Nobody's getting rich
Speaker 1: doing it. But the bad guys, the bad actors in
Speaker 1: the system, inflict so much damage and the fact that
Speaker 1: they are able to, Like I'm trying to take myself
Speaker 1: inside the mindset of these detectives who went to interview
Speaker 1: this woman learned at that moment that you were innocent,
Speaker 1: as was Reginald, and just chose to ignore it because
Speaker 1: it was more convenient for them to wrap this case
Speaker 1: up and move on with their life. And then they
Speaker 1: went home and ate dinner and did whatever they did,
Speaker 1: play with their kids. And it's a hard one for me.
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe I just can't. I'm never going
Speaker 1: to be comfortable with that. But that's what happened. And
Speaker 1: now the jury comes back in. Tell me about that moment.
Speaker 2: I'm sure that my mother was sitting in the court
Speaker 2: room and the jewy came back and they said that
Speaker 2: the beach a verse did. The judge asked what was
Speaker 2: the verdict, and they said I was guilty of second
Speaker 2: degree kidnapping. My mom actually screaming out in the courthouse
Speaker 2: and it was like totally shocking. I mean it was
Speaker 2: totally unbelievable to me when you know, when when I
Speaker 2: heard that, because I said, I didn't you know, I
Speaker 2: did not comment to scrime. I hope could I could you?
Speaker 2: People actually found me guilty for crimes I know I
Speaker 2: did not commit, and so I was just like like
Speaker 2: just did standing like shock?
Speaker 1: Did you say anything? Did you?
Speaker 2: I just told you I did not commit a crime.
Speaker 2: You said, so, yes, I did not comment in a crime.
Speaker 1: And then they took it away. Yeah. So now your
Speaker 1: sense was twelve and a half to twenty five years.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: The problem with that is aside from the fact that
Speaker 1: you were innocent and that you shouldn't have been in
Speaker 1: the system in the first place, the problem is that
Speaker 1: twelve and a half to twenty five could actually mean
Speaker 1: life because when you're sends to twelve and a half
Speaker 1: to twenty five, you're eligible for parole after a period
Speaker 1: of time. But in order to get parole, you have
Speaker 1: to express remorse. You have to which is essentially the
Speaker 1: same as admitting guilt. Yes, and I want to get
Speaker 1: to that, but first I want to talk about your
Speaker 1: experience in prison, because we've spoken about it before and
Speaker 1: it's quite remarkable that you are this joyful? Is the
Speaker 1: best way I can describe your attitude about life. And
Speaker 1: I know from having spent time with you and talked
Speaker 1: about your years, your decades in prison, that you maintained
Speaker 1: an upbeat and positive attitude through a situation that would
Speaker 1: have broken down a different man, a different person. What
Speaker 1: did it? How did you do it?
Speaker 2: Well? You know, I know I was innocent of this crime.
Speaker 2: I know I had truth on my side. I know
Speaker 2: that somebody was lying about this crime, and I know
Speaker 2: it was not I wasn't the one lying about it.
Speaker 2: Kind of it in a comment of crime. And I
Speaker 2: will tell to myself that I have to do something
Speaker 2: about it, because we have to show that the truth
Speaker 2: means something. If I just sit there and just didn't
Speaker 2: do anything that means I would, it would be a
Speaker 2: betrayal to the truth. I mean, so I had to
Speaker 2: do something if it mean I have to sacrifice. But
Speaker 2: sobeit and actually at first I didn't pretty much have
Speaker 2: an indication about the judicial system, the police reports and
Speaker 2: all these things. It's after having gone through a lot
Speaker 2: of studying. I got books and rent books because I
Speaker 2: used to work in a general library interlibrary loan books.
Speaker 2: I rent books from the outside, study what PaperWorks mean what,
Speaker 2: and all these things and try to compare them under
Speaker 2: some contrast, and all these things. And it was just
Speaker 2: doing this time that I actually went and found those reports.
Speaker 2: And I tell myself that I could not have just
Speaker 2: sit there and just like throw a pity party or
Speaker 2: anything like that, you knowest I could not do that.
Speaker 2: I have to fight. I have to do what I
Speaker 2: have to do, and that's the only way I would
Speaker 2: be I would have been vindicated. And I went to
Speaker 2: the legal research course inside here, I passed and get
Speaker 2: a paralegal certificate where I could work in a lot
Speaker 2: of library and help other inmates. And while I was
Speaker 2: doing these things, this is the other things that actually
Speaker 2: keeps me going. I used to read books and newspapers,
Speaker 2: articles that came through the lot of library and the
Speaker 2: general library where other peopils were being vindicated, you know,
Speaker 2: of crime that I didn't come to commit. So these
Speaker 2: are some of the things that I have seen that
Speaker 2: actually give me some sense of hope because I said,
Speaker 2: you know, one day it's going to be me, because
Speaker 2: I know the truth adventure was going to vindicate me.
Speaker 2: Were you angry when I was first convicted. I actually
Speaker 2: sit and cry and ask God why me? You know,
Speaker 2: I didn't comment to scribe God, why didn't Why did
Speaker 2: you allow this to happen to me? And I asked
Speaker 2: a friend of mine who was there, and he said
Speaker 2: to me, his question was because God knew what you
Speaker 2: was gonna do, that he was going to fight it,
Speaker 2: probably for something else that you probably put it in
Speaker 2: the past or something like that probably would just sit
Speaker 2: back and just didn't different to it. But God know
Speaker 2: that you did not come and to describe it. You
Speaker 2: know that you would have fight the way you did right, No,
Speaker 2: you were fighting, and that's the reason probably why. And
Speaker 2: it makes sense.
Speaker 1: But it's interesting because having spoken to so many and
Speaker 1: they've been very fortunate to be able to spend time
Speaker 1: and learn from literally hundreds of exgneries over the years
Speaker 1: I've been doing this, you know, they all have a
Speaker 1: different version of what you're saying. Some of them went
Speaker 1: in angry, bitter, scared, but then they turned it around somehow.
Speaker 1: But it sounds like to me like you were like steadfast,
Speaker 1: Like at first you had your moment, you allowed yourself
Speaker 1: to cry, and then it sounds like you just bounced
Speaker 1: uf you had this one guy who was like a
Speaker 1: mentor kind of like who sort of steered you spiritually
Speaker 1: or whatever.
Speaker 2: There wasn't any time to true pity party or anything
Speaker 2: like that. There is only time to be bitter. It
Speaker 2: is something that has to be done, and there was
Speaker 2: any other way to do it but through me. Actually,
Speaker 2: I used to rely on other people to help me
Speaker 2: to fight my kids, to write so because I couldn't
Speaker 2: even write properly, you understand, I used to have to
Speaker 2: rely on in me to actually read some of the
Speaker 2: stuff with me and try to explain to me to
Speaker 2: me about some of these issues. And I said to myself,
Speaker 2: you know what, if I'm going to prove that I'm innocent,
Speaker 2: I cannot be really, I can't expect to rely on
Speaker 2: these people to do something for me that I should
Speaker 2: be doing for myself. And so that's when I start
Speaker 2: to actually get books. I started to like when I
Speaker 2: passed my GD because that's where I get my ged
Speaker 2: college course. Who was thereby taking out the college course
Speaker 2: the prison system. So what I did when I work
Speaker 2: in the general library, I used to study, do my
Speaker 2: own independent study insiety or starty read books, all different
Speaker 2: books anxiety and educate myself in the general library because
Speaker 2: I realized that I was on a mission and I
Speaker 2: can it is no time for to be bitter, to
Speaker 2: carry any animasity, because all I was going to do
Speaker 2: is defeat the whole purpose, Because why would why should
Speaker 2: I consprail with something that I already have, my dear,
Speaker 2: but I didn't if I was already doing time for
Speaker 2: something I didn't do, So why would I choose to
Speaker 2: hay taut to to be bita when it's not gonna
Speaker 2: help me. You're not gonna cause me more harmran anything else.
Speaker 2: I didn't not have any time for that.
Speaker 1: But you realize that is a very advanced spiritual practice
Speaker 1: almost and it's so extraordinary for me and I think
Speaker 1: many others who are listeners and fans of the show.
Speaker 1: It's really powerful to hear you and others who've been
Speaker 1: through this talk about that, because I've never been through
Speaker 1: anything vaguely resembling the stuff that you've been through. But
Speaker 1: I think it's good for you to know, and I
Speaker 1: hope you know that it's so inspiring, you know, to
Speaker 1: be able to take what you're saying and try to
Speaker 1: incorporate that into daily life and take a more you know,
Speaker 1: zen for lack of a better word, approach to the
Speaker 1: life's daily problems. And so I appreciate you sharing that
Speaker 1: you know personally, and I'm sure there's a lot of
Speaker 1: people who will were able to draw and have a
Speaker 1: happier day or week or life as a result of
Speaker 1: hearing your voice. I think that's that's really an amazing
Speaker 1: it's phenomenal. There came a point when you were eligible
Speaker 1: for parole. Yes, at this point you had contacted the
Speaker 1: Innocence Project by now, but you hadn't heard back yet
Speaker 1: as to whether the case had been or had you.
Speaker 2: Never interacting like writing comic expanded me about the case
Speaker 2: and so forth. And the evidence that been Actually took
Speaker 2: a while for them to discover any evidence in my key,
Speaker 2: because at first I said the evidence could not be found,
Speaker 2: and it was after Jim Dwyer wrote an article about it,
Speaker 2: because during that time, this guy here, he was just
Speaker 2: he was in the Bronx Alan Newton had a problem
Speaker 2: finding his evidence.
Speaker 1: Yes, I did.
Speaker 2: And then eventually they went back ten years later and
Speaker 2: found the evidence in the exact place where it was
Speaker 2: ten yure earlier. So so what Jim did he combined
Speaker 2: both cases unsure the problem of finding the any evidence
Speaker 2: that would exconerate inn send people. So after the article
Speaker 2: is the DNA evidence was eventually found.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Jim Dwyer, for those of you who haven't read
Speaker 1: his stuff, is a fantastic investigative reporter in New York.
Speaker 1: And this is not atypical, right the Innocence Project, Before
Speaker 1: we take a case, we have to find out, we
Speaker 1: have to do the research to find it if there's
Speaker 1: evidence that so that we can help. So you were
Speaker 1: sort of in between, but you had hoped that the
Speaker 1: Innocence Project might take your case exactly. But you also
Speaker 1: had another option, right, which is that your parole was
Speaker 1: coming up. But you took a very principled stand at
Speaker 1: this point in time, which is I think a hard
Speaker 1: one for some people to understand, because you literally had
Speaker 1: at a certain point an option of getting out of
Speaker 1: prison if you would have done certain things. Yes, but
Speaker 1: you refused.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about.
Speaker 2: That well, Jason, the part of what is there for
Speaker 2: people who committed their crime? And why would I go
Speaker 2: to a board to admit there to show remorse for
Speaker 2: something that I know I didn't coming.
Speaker 1: When you would you refuse to even go to the
Speaker 1: prole board. Yes, right, and that's again that's a that's
Speaker 1: a heavy thing, I think for a lot of you.
Speaker 1: For me, it's amazing because people would think, well, you
Speaker 1: got to get out of prison. I got to get
Speaker 1: out of here, right, But you were not going to
Speaker 1: do it. You're not going to admit to really a brutal,
Speaker 1: terrible crime exactly.
Speaker 2: And then that would just subject me to ridis as
Speaker 2: a sex offender. And I told you that, but I
Speaker 2: would be dictated when one way to go and when
Speaker 2: to go to bed I went to sleep or something
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 1: So it would be like being in prison on the exactly,
Speaker 1: and you were going to stand and fight for what
Speaker 1: was writing. But I mean spending the rest of your.
Speaker 2: Life in prison, spend the rest of my life. It's
Speaker 2: incredible because I would be a free money insided and
Speaker 2: I would if I had to come out here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's almost like a double penalty. But Reginald
Speaker 1: chose to take the other option and I and I
Speaker 1: can certainly, as I said, I can relate to that.
Speaker 1: I think it's it's almost like a Sophie's choice, right,
Speaker 1: you have two options and they're both bad. One is
Speaker 1: you admit guilt in essence.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't think Regie actually to admit guilt because
Speaker 2: his law you had written PaperWorks to the board professing
Speaker 2: his innocence, proclaiming is innocence than everything, right, So I
Speaker 2: guess that's play a factor in his release too in
Speaker 2: two thousand and four.
Speaker 1: But did he have to register as a sex offender
Speaker 1: and all that stuff? Yes, if he was innocent, he
Speaker 1: wouldn't have to register exactly right, so you know. And
Speaker 1: the other problem with that is, of course, if you
Speaker 1: accept those conditions or terms what everyonet to call it,
Speaker 1: you forego any opportunity to sue for your wrongful conviction. Right,
Speaker 1: you have to sign those rights away essentially, So it's
Speaker 1: a very very difficult decision to have to make. And
Speaker 1: what happened had you eventually when your.
Speaker 2: Freedom conditional release came up for me to be released,
Speaker 2: this is when all he had to do was just
Speaker 2: sign up paper and walk out. But again that would
Speaker 2: have subjected me to register again as a sex offender,
Speaker 2: and I refuse to sign those paper. So ten years
Speaker 2: early on, the parler would probably would have been paroled
Speaker 2: had I gone to the BO and then five years
Speaker 2: after my conditional release, and I signed a paper then
Speaker 2: I would have to spend five extra year in prison.
Speaker 2: But I refuse to sign that paper, and I tell
Speaker 2: myself that I was going to be free. I know
Speaker 2: the TRUDEO was going to vindicate me sooner.
Speaker 1: Or later, and we know that it did. Bill, you
Speaker 1: wouldn't be here now. But let's talk about that. So
Speaker 1: the Innocence Project took your case and eventually twenty fourteen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I was during that time. I was I
Speaker 2: had Belldock helping too with my case. He was doing
Speaker 2: the part where there's no involvement of dating evidence or
Speaker 2: anything like that. It was studying the police reports and
Speaker 2: all these things, because that's when I started to write
Speaker 2: everything about what I discovered, showing them what I've discovered
Speaker 2: and showing that I did not comment the crime, that
Speaker 2: there was a fabrication, and you know, showing the purports
Speaker 2: and all these things.
Speaker 1: And Bell Doc again for those who may not know,
Speaker 1: it's Myron Bell Doc.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: So he's a very respected criminal defense attorney in New
Speaker 1: York and he had taken your case bono. Yes, right,
Speaker 1: So now you have two very powerful weapons in your
Speaker 1: arsenal all of a sudden right, it went from being
Speaker 1: basically on your own, to be well, not basically totally
Speaker 1: on your own, to having two great organizations advocating exactly
Speaker 1: because it was clear to us at the Innocey's project
Speaker 1: and also to Bell Doc and his friend that you
Speaker 1: were an innocent man exactly. So how did it end up?
Speaker 1: We heard about the terrible day when you were convicted,
Speaker 1: We heard about the horrible day when you were arrested.
Speaker 1: I want to hear about the day when you were
Speaker 1: exonerated and how did it get to that point and
Speaker 1: what was that like?
Speaker 2: Well, we had initially file emotion, the motion was denied
Speaker 2: by Justice Sparker, and then we have to file emotion
Speaker 2: to the Appalliate Court showing why the kid should have
Speaker 2: been dismissed because of the fabrication and the late Britty
Speaker 2: turned over that show that the kids was actually fabricated
Speaker 2: against us. So did they put the second department looked
Speaker 2: over the keys, took them like six months, six or
Speaker 2: six months, and it came back and not only did
Speaker 2: they dismiss the conviction, but they also dismiss the evidence
Speaker 2: in that means againstans, showing that the report that should
Speaker 2: have been turnover to us at trial. Was never turnover,
Speaker 2: and that would show that the detectives and the witness
Speaker 2: was not foot right with their allegation. They pretty much
Speaker 2: fabricate the whole thing they did.
Speaker 1: I mean not even pretty much, just straight fabricated.
Speaker 2: The whole thing. So I normally call Kim. She was
Speaker 2: a former correction officer. She would pay a pivotal part
Speaker 2: in my keys because she used to help with like
Speaker 2: getting information to the lawyers and so forth, like nothing
Speaker 2: that would jeopard as her job or anything like that.
Speaker 2: I called a family member and they told me that
Speaker 2: there was a decision right and I at first I
Speaker 2: didn't know. They were hysterical, like crying on the phone
Speaker 2: and everything. And I actually I even know how to
Speaker 2: feel anymore. I just like, good, like you guys can cry.
Speaker 2: Let me look over the decision and everything and read
Speaker 2: it over. I should have been like happy, excited and
Speaker 2: everything like that. But there was no sense of excitement
Speaker 2: because again earlier of what the lower court did, because
Speaker 2: here is it, I hope was all the way to
Speaker 2: the ceiling and they just knocked it all the way down.
Speaker 2: But that doesn't stop me from from hoping.
Speaker 1: But this family member. Who was it? Was it your
Speaker 1: was it your mom or an uncle or who is
Speaker 1: it that you spoke to?
Speaker 2: It was a Kim uh, the farm of correction officer
Speaker 2: that I was there. I spoke to her, but then
Speaker 2: she had already retired from her job.
Speaker 1: So did you believe it?
Speaker 2: You know what I was like, I got back something
Speaker 2: that shouldn't have been taken away from you in the
Speaker 2: first place. So it's not like it shouldn't have been
Speaker 2: taken away from me.
Speaker 1: Of course, So you didn't have really a sense of joy.
Speaker 1: It wasn't the mirror image of the despair that you felt.
Speaker 1: It was more of a thing of just sort of
Speaker 1: justice is done, and now let me move on with
Speaker 1: my life exactly exactly, like a resolute kind of exactly exactly. Now,
Speaker 1: let's get on to the other part of the story,
Speaker 1: which is incredible, Right, let's talk about love. So Kim
Speaker 1: is kind of an important figure in your story.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So Kim was a correction officer in Green Correctional Facility,
Speaker 1: and you developed a relationship with her, not a physical relationship,
Speaker 1: but sort of a connection exactly with her while you
Speaker 1: were locked up there. Yes, and then that took on
Speaker 1: a new meaning when you were released. Everton ended up
Speaker 1: marrying Kim, who had been a correctional officer in the
Speaker 1: prison in which he was incarcerated, which sounds like if
Speaker 1: you put it in a movie, somebody would go, get
Speaker 1: the fuck out of here. That's impossible, but it actually happened.
Speaker 1: How did that go down?
Speaker 2: Well? When I was the fight in working on my case,
Speaker 2: I worked a lot of library where she actually was
Speaker 2: a supervising officer in that area. She used to work
Speaker 2: a couple of days there and used to work in
Speaker 2: the upfront where she would monitor telephone calls, and I
Speaker 2: normally would call out to my lawyer. Then had this
Speaker 2: lawyer who was actually represent in Kanna. I was axing
Speaker 2: for her help, and I wanted her to actually have
Speaker 2: other lawyers involve in the case. And I was trying
Speaker 2: to her telling her I don't need sympathy, I need help,
Speaker 2: you know, And I don't think I've been get enough help,
Speaker 2: but I should be getting. And I think came over
Speaker 2: her this conversation and she was like somewhat taken aback
Speaker 2: because she said, Damn, this guy's actually innocent and shouldn't
Speaker 2: be here. So I guess she developed some feelings there
Speaker 2: for me then and then you know, and trying to
Speaker 2: see what she could do to help while I was there,
Speaker 2: you know, and then after I you know, because of
Speaker 2: what she's done from over the years, and I, you know,
Speaker 2: there was anybody at the time helping. I had no
Speaker 2: support pretty much helping me. At that time. I was
Speaker 2: everything was done on my own insiety. I have to
Speaker 2: go to school and kid myself and study whatever I
Speaker 2: need to be study. In other words, I was like
Speaker 2: alone of fighting all these things. And then she came
Speaker 2: along and tried to help, you know, play help in
Speaker 2: the process, like can't help to contact lawyers, German suffordance
Speaker 2: on so speak on my.
Speaker 1: Behalf, sort of like an angel in exactly exactly exactly.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. So and ultimately, you know, you resisted any
Speaker 1: temptation to develop a physical Really I had to.
Speaker 2: I could not develop. Number One, I whispered her job.
Speaker 2: I whispect her as that person. I would not have
Speaker 2: done anything to undermine her job.
Speaker 1: Right because she would have been in big trouble exactly.
Speaker 2: So there was nothing unbecoming inside or anything like that.
Speaker 1: Nothing right, And we know that that goes on in prison, right,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of that. Yes, sure, but you but
Speaker 1: you resisted, which is a you know, we talked about
Speaker 1: it before. It's an incredible temptation. You've been alone for
Speaker 1: over two decades now, but you resisted, which was again
Speaker 1: a principled and intelligent and thoughtful and difficult thing to do.
Speaker 1: But the good news is that you eventually were released.
Speaker 1: She was really almost placed there as somebody to give
Speaker 1: you that extra supported.
Speaker 2: Exactly to exactly I look at it in that sense.
Speaker 1: And so that was a great thing. And then ultimately
Speaker 1: you were freed, and then you contacted her and a
Speaker 1: relationship developed and which led to ultimately being married.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean because of what you have done too
Speaker 2: for me too. I mean she was there when again
Speaker 2: no one wasn't there ja when I was in the
Speaker 2: bottom of the pit, understand. So I mean that's somebody
Speaker 2: who I could never like break ties with. She embedded
Speaker 2: a place in my heart at all time. It doesn't
Speaker 2: matter where. She's always going to be in my heart,
Speaker 2: I mean, and I would always do everything in my
Speaker 2: poet to me the show that she's Okay.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean it's an incredible love story. It's an
Speaker 1: amazing way to end. But I don't want to end
Speaker 1: without going back to your time in prison. You mentioned
Speaker 1: the education program in the prison, and I want to
Speaker 1: talk about that because I think a lot of people
Speaker 1: are skeptical, and there's some people out there who say, well,
Speaker 1: why should we pay to educate guys in prison? We
Speaker 1: don't pay enough money for the regular educ or whatever
Speaker 1: they say, right, And I have a very different view
Speaker 1: on it, not only from a public safety perspective, where
Speaker 1: we know that men and women who've been through an
Speaker 1: education program in prison when they come out are extremely
Speaker 1: unlikely to reoffend. But how important was it to you
Speaker 1: to have that education option or that education program available
Speaker 1: to you in prison.
Speaker 2: I mean, it was very important that because if it
Speaker 2: wasn't for that, who else would I have help to
Speaker 2: educate myself? I mean, even though it was taken away
Speaker 2: when I first got my ged, because again, I think
Speaker 2: Governor Parteka was the government at that time, and I
Speaker 2: get some of the public was probably sure the same
Speaker 2: feelings that why should they talk have to be to
Speaker 2: have to educate these people, you know, for you know,
Speaker 2: when they are criminals, unsufford and so on. But they
Speaker 2: have to realize too that these are the same people
Speaker 2: who are going to come back and re into society,
Speaker 2: So why not use it as a cost to help them?
Speaker 1: Exactly. I think it's critically important that we provide this
Speaker 1: option thanks to people, and it allows for a sense
Speaker 1: of hope. And I know this from having spoken to
Speaker 1: other exoneries who've been through it. I mean, even Jeff
Speaker 1: Deskevic has been on the show. I mean he said
Speaker 1: if not for that, he probably would have killed himself
Speaker 1: in prison because he had nothing else. I'm glad we
Speaker 1: brought that up. Now. We talked a bit earlier about
Speaker 1: the things that you derived your inspiration from, right, and
Speaker 1: you talked about some of the books and some of
Speaker 1: the teachings that allowed you or that helped you, or
Speaker 1: that inspired you to keep a positive attitude and to
Speaker 1: be able to carry on day after day in this
Speaker 1: miserable place, with the loneliness and the frustration and you
Speaker 1: know all the other terrible things that come with being
Speaker 1: in the max of security prison. It was really the
Speaker 1: books that did it, wasn't it.
Speaker 2: Well, I the books did it. And plus I know
Speaker 2: that I want to be of help to life, to
Speaker 2: humanity as a whole, and I know I could not
Speaker 2: just sit there and those focus exclusively on my case.
Speaker 2: What can I do in the mean? And while I
Speaker 2: was working on my kids, it was something that I
Speaker 2: had to do. I couldn't just like make it be
Speaker 2: my number one, so I have to say say no
Speaker 2: what during that case, I read especially at mansurcial Meaning
Speaker 2: by Victor frank Kill. Victor frank Kill may referenced that
Speaker 2: it wasn't a condition that kills him, but the lack
Speaker 2: of hope. And I have experienced the same thing inside
Speaker 2: that place where I was, because I've seen a lot
Speaker 2: of guys inside here, Jason. I mean a lot of
Speaker 2: guys just like after being hit so many times at
Speaker 2: the board, just gave up and their system just started
Speaker 2: a fight against them. They have to be put on medication.
Speaker 2: Some of them just checking to hospital ward and they
Speaker 2: just went down and just out. I've experienced so many times.
Speaker 2: I've experienced this particular guy whose very own immune system,
Speaker 2: Jason eats away at his own body because of lack
Speaker 2: of hope. I've have been been hit so many times
Speaker 2: at the Board, and I was so privileged to spoke
Speaker 2: speak to that guy one day in the library and
Speaker 2: I explained to you that and give telling my situation
Speaker 2: and how I will never give up hope and never
Speaker 2: even despite it being hit so many times, that deny
Speaker 2: so many times that the power board not to give
Speaker 2: up hope, to keep fighting, keep fighting because eventually you
Speaker 2: will be released. And like actually a few probably a
Speaker 2: year or so later, he was actually released. You know,
Speaker 2: it's serious, I mean, and these are some of the
Speaker 2: things that I have seen. And as a result, I
Speaker 2: told myself, Jason, that I could not sit there and
Speaker 2: feel any pretty ported despite of what happened to me,
Speaker 2: despite of the denial of times from the other course
Speaker 2: and everything, I did not allow that to stop me
Speaker 2: at first. At first, Yes, I feel dawn when I
Speaker 2: first get hit, done something like when I was denied
Speaker 2: and all these things, but I didn't dwell on it. Jason.
Speaker 2: The problem is a lot of us dwell too much
Speaker 2: when something is done. Now we think it's wrong, do
Speaker 2: something about it. Don't just sit about and try to
Speaker 2: be angry, are bit or anything, because that's not going
Speaker 2: to do anything to help find another road that you
Speaker 2: could go and tackle that problem and get it out
Speaker 2: of the way.
Speaker 1: So if anybody out there is think about having a
Speaker 1: petty party, they shouldn't invite you because you're not No,
Speaker 1: I'm not coming.
Speaker 2: I don't want to hear it.
Speaker 1: You're not coming. But now that's amazing because you actually
Speaker 1: had a very profound effect on this man who was
Speaker 1: giving up hope, and you were able to snapping back
Speaker 1: into reality. And then next thing, you know, a year later,
Speaker 1: it's like it's like a miracle exactly.
Speaker 2: And you know what, And that's the thing about working way.
Speaker 2: I work boat in the general library under the library,
Speaker 2: and I was able to meet a lot of people
Speaker 2: who have been have gone to the board so many
Speaker 2: times and get hit at the board so many times,
Speaker 2: and I have I was there to like just give
Speaker 2: them some hope, like speak to them about listen, look
Speaker 2: look at my condition. For example. I mean I didn't
Speaker 2: commit a crime. I'm here suffering as if I did
Speaker 2: a crime. But at the same time, I'm not giving
Speaker 2: up hope because I know I would be vindicated one day.
Speaker 2: And the same thing, that principle that I use to
Speaker 2: help me to maintain my mind my sonny inside, you
Speaker 2: can't use the same principle. I doesn't have to be
Speaker 2: in prison. The same principle kill be applied. Audio by
Speaker 2: anyone in any situation.
Speaker 1: Well, that is a message that is as good as
Speaker 1: any that we could possibly share. And I know it's
Speaker 1: going to help me and so many others to get
Speaker 1: through things that we're all going to go through at
Speaker 1: different times. I do want to just give a quick
Speaker 1: plug because Everton has been doing some great work helping
Speaker 1: out risk youth and working with them, but also going
Speaker 1: and doing public speaking on a professional basis, and so
Speaker 1: I want to share if it's sorry with you, I
Speaker 1: want to share your email address so that people can
Speaker 1: reach out. You speak at schools, at colleges, corporations, basically
Speaker 1: anywhere that somebody needs to hear this message of tragedy, triumph,
Speaker 1: and I guess it's optimism, positivity, and strength. I mean
Speaker 1: that's really what it is. And so everything in your
Speaker 1: email address.
Speaker 2: Is make a difference and live at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's kind of perfect. Make a difference and live
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. A more appropriate email address I
Speaker 1: couldn't imagine for a guy like you, So reach out,
Speaker 1: and he's a guy you really want to get to
Speaker 1: know better than you can even just on the podcast. Everton.
Speaker 1: It's been a real pleasure and a privilege having you
Speaker 1: on the show. Is there anything else that you want
Speaker 1: to say? Or we sign on.
Speaker 2: Well, it doesn't matter where we are in this world,
Speaker 2: it don't matter what we are going through. We must
Speaker 2: always understand that there is always a way out. And
Speaker 2: sometimes the problem is that we tend to look too
Speaker 2: much for guidance from our five senses. We have to
Speaker 2: learn to go beyond those five senses because example, when
Speaker 2: I was going through what I was going through, I
Speaker 2: was in prison, for example, and I if I was
Speaker 2: just focusing on my condition, my current situation, I would
Speaker 2: stay depressed and all these things would have kicked in
Speaker 2: hopelessness and our dispair would have kicked in. But I
Speaker 2: realized that there's another side to the five senses that
Speaker 2: the five senses doesn't understand, I will never understand. And
Speaker 2: that's where we have to learn to dwell in that
Speaker 2: spiritual aspect of who we are, because these are the
Speaker 2: things that help us to elevate any mountain, gods, amount,
Speaker 2: any problem. And we have to remember that do not
Speaker 2: just dwell on your five sentences and what you're going through.
Speaker 2: Don't focus on those senses. Of course there they are
Speaker 2: beneficial tools, but they're not the moving fact that they're
Speaker 2: not the determined facts in our life. There should be
Speaker 2: just a vehicle that determines that that only take away
Speaker 2: and stick instruction from us the spiritual side of who
Speaker 2: we are. Remember that we have to know how to
Speaker 2: steer it on, how to guide it. All.
Speaker 1: Right, I think that says it all. This has been
Speaker 1: a very inspiring episode of wrongful conviction and it's all
Speaker 1: because of you everything. Thank you again for being here.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Wish you all the best, and I'm looking forward to
Speaker 1: seeing you and watching you do more and share more
Speaker 1: wisdom with everybody you want to thank you. Don't forget
Speaker 1: to give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the
Speaker 1: Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in
Speaker 1: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future
Speaker 1: wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how
Speaker 1: to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our
Speaker 1: production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in
Speaker 1: the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction
Speaker 1: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 2: Podcast.
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one