WEBVTT - #013 Jason Flom with Everton Wagstaffe 0:00:02.360 --> 0:00:06.920 Everton Wagstaff is a source of inspiration to me that 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:12.880 I am just super grateful to have his talk that 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:15.280 he gives at the end of the episode that you're 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:19.960 about to hear, which was just stream of consciousness. Man, 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:22.800 he drops some knowledge that I really needed to hear, 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:25.760 and I think a lot of other people do too, 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:28.320 So please listen all the way through to the interview 0:00:28.520 --> 0:00:32.159 I did with Everton Wagstaff back when it first aired 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:36.480 on February twenty seventh of twenty seventeen. The good news 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:41.720 is finally, after suffering through over two decades of wrongful imprisonment, 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:46.479 Everton received a fourteen point six million dollar settlement in 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:51.440 June of twenty seventeen. Everton, you deserve all the happiness 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:55.360 in the world and I wish you blessings on blessings. 0:00:55.600 --> 0:01:09.959 You are a hero to me. With the police banging 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:11.759 on the door, open up. 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:15.080 The choice to be in that lineup was the last 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:18.160 choice I made as a free man. A year later, 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:19.600 I ended up writing the system. 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:22.960 I'm going to be one of those people who everyone 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:24.600 in the world is going to think as a monster 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:26.720 or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life, 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:28.080 and I'm just going to have to come to peace 0:01:28.080 --> 0:01:28.319 with that. 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:32.280 Somebody was able to look at my picture in the 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:35.839 database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't. 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:40.200 I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:42.440 might have to play in my hanging. They had been 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:45.680 told that two prison officers would have to participate in 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:49.880 my execution. Now I walked back inside that prison for 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:52.280 the last time. Man all help broke loose. 0:01:52.320 --> 0:02:03.160 But in nineteen ninety two, Everton Wagstaff was arrested and 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:06.040 charged with the kidnapping, rape, and murder of a sixteen 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:10.399 year old girl, Jennifer Negron in Brooklyn, New York. Wagstaff 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:14.280 and another man who he didn't know, Reginald Connor, were 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:18.160 both convicted for the girl's brutal killing. His arrest and 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:21.400 conviction were based almost entirely on the word of a 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:25.800 drug addicted sex worker, a heroin addict named Brunilda Capella, 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:29.000 who claimed falsely that she discovered the body. 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:32.000 He's spent twenty three years behind bars, and spent even 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:36.120 longer than that fighting a legal battle against a justice system. Tonight, 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:41.000 this Brooklyn man, he is finally free. Everton Wagstaff's wrongful 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:42.680 conviction has been overturned. 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:45.760 He ultimately served almost twenty three years in prison and 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:49.720 survived based on an incredible positive attitude and a will 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:53.519 to live and persevere. He was exonerated in twenty fourteen, 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:56.760 and he's here today. This is his story. 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.519 I was so curious about coming to this Clenchion America. 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:02.160 A year later, I ended up writing the system. 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:06.560 Welcome back to another episode of Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flomm. 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:11.280 Today's guest is the one and only Everton Wagstaff. And 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:13.400 you'll understand why I say the one and only after 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:16.200 you get to hear his incredible story and his unique 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:20.840 perspective and wonderful attitude about everything that he's been through 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:24.120 and about the world in general. Everton, welcome to the show. 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:26.840 Thank you for having me so, Everton. We have a 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:29.680 tradition here at Wrongful Conviction. We start at the beginning 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:33.960 and then we worked through the whole story right to 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:38.960 the present, starting back at the beginning. You're originally from Jamaica, right, yes, 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:40.600 and not Jamaica Queens. 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:43.240 Jamaica, actual Jamaican Island. Did Jamaica Island? 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:45.280 Yeah? Yeah, I know. Everybody's always giving you a hard 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:47.400 time about the Jamaican bobsled team. But that wasn't you. 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:49.640 That was some of the guys. Tell me about growing 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:51.280 up in Jamaica. First of all, did you have a 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:52.880 happy life there? What was it like? 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:56.000 Yeah, it was happy. I grew up with my grand appearance. 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:59.640 We pretty much have basic necessities. Weren't like in Nita 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:02.000 for any thing, you know, prett to live off the land, 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:06.040 nothing to complain about. It was fairly fairly well. 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:08.720 And you came here in your young twenties. What led 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:10.480 you to make the decision to come to New York 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:11.400 it's a big change. 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:14.720 Well, you know what, I've always heard about America And 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:17.159 I said, whoa, what was? And I was so curious 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:19.480 about coming to this country. I've been seeing all these things. 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:21.800 Had you ever been here before? No, you've never been here, 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:24.120 and you just decided to move exactly, pretty brave. 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:28.800 And you know, I was curious about here. But a 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:30.719 year later I ended up writing the system. 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:34.719 I mean unfortunately, Yeah, I mean that's a rude awakening, 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:37.960 like very not welcome to New York, right, exactly the 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:42.520 opposite of welcome exactly exactly. So you were living in Brooklyn, right, 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:43.479 when you got here. 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:46.960 Yeah, I was living in Brooklyn. I that in the 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:49.360 Bronx with my mom, you know. Then I live on 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:52.359 my own in Long Island with a former girlfriend. 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:54.720 So you moved around a little bit, yes, And what 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:56.440 were you doing to make a living while you were 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:57.799 here in the beginning, Well. 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:00.680 I used to do a little construction with my step dad. 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:02.600 He used to be one of those guys that'd helped 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:03.520 with the Brooklyn Bridge. 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:06.480 So you came to America in what year, late. 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:08.880 Eighty nine, ninety early nineties, and. 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:10.760 A year later everything went wrong. 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:13.039 Everything went wrong, Yeah, which. 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:14.440 Is a crazy story. I mean, there was a lot 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:17.720 of crime in New York back then, and there was 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:20.160 a lot of pressure on the police to solve crimes. Yes, 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:23.960 And there was a terrible crime that happened at that time, 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:28.040 a young girl, sixteen year old girl was kidnapped, raped, 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:31.560 and murdered. So naturally there's going to be a lot 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:35.040 of pressure on the cops to resolve this and restore 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:39.120 some faith or some calm to the community. And they 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:40.960 ended up getting not only one wrong guy, but two 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:43.720 wrong guys. They ended up getting you and another guy, Yes, 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:50.080 And they managed to arrest and ultimately convict you without 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:54.640 any physical evidence exactly, which is it's a crazy story. 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:56.839 I mean, we hear so many crazy stories here on 0:05:56.880 --> 0:06:00.440 wrongful conviction. Take us through it. So we're wor you 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:02.400 did they come and kick in your door or like 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:05.240 did how did you end up getting arrested and what 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:06.560 were you thinking at the time. 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:10.400 Actually I was on a payphone in East New York 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:14.080 and and my car came up and took me off 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:16.480 the phone and said that there and said it was 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:19.919 going to take me to the precinct to check something out. 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:23.120 And that was it. I ended up getting interrogated for 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:25.400 this crime. The ax me where I was between such 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:27.080 and such a time at tim I was nowhere in 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:30.040 the area. I was in Long Island. And they keep 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:32.520 saying that they have a witness Hooken said that I 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:35.040 commit a crime and before and so on, and I 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:36.560 tell them and I didn't commit a crime, And they 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:39.920 have the wrong person. So they had met the person 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:42.960 from at least from about twelve or eleven in the 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:47.240 afternoon until about one o'clock twelve one o'clock midnight. So 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:49.240 I put me on this line up to have this 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:51.200 girl came in. I know who it was at that time. 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:53.839 Came in and they said I was identifying as another 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:58.080 person who committed the crime. And I was like, this 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:00.839 is impossible. I didn't commit a crime if nobody to speak, 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:02.279 but I was not in the era. It's that you 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:03.599 guys said I was name in that era. 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:05.560 At the time we were interrogating. Did you have a 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:08.960 lawyer or anybody else? No, and no lawyer, nothing, And 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:13.680 so you're new in this country, yes, and it's got 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:17.840 to be totally bewildering and overwhelming. Did they threaten you. 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:20.400 Well, it didn't make a lot of fun of I mean, 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:22.600 because I told them that I needed to speak to 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:24.480 a lawyer and they asked me who I want me 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:26.040 to get that want me to get to Kobe and 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:27.400 Myers or something like that. 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:30.920 For those of you, for those of you who aren't 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:32.960 from New York, to Phobean Wires is sort of a 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:37.040 punchline because they're always advertising on TV anyway, That's why 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:40.520 he brought it up. So, yeah, so they're making fun 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:42.920 of you. They're probably bored too, because you're in there 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:45.560 for twelve hours, right, So did they give you anything 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:47.960 to eat or drink or anything like that? So you're 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:50.120 just sitting in this room for twelve hours. They're coming 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:55.600 in and out, and the typical interrogation, no videotaping, no nothing, nothing. 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:56.840 But you didn't admit to anything. 0:07:56.960 --> 0:07:59.280 No, you know, I wouldn't admit to something I didn't do. 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:07.360 And ultimately the whole situation got really surreal, right because 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:11.000 they were so desperate it seems like in retrospect to 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:15.760 get a conviction that they went to pretty extraordinary lengths 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:19.160 to frame you. And talk to me about the other 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:21.320 guy who was convicted at the time. 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:24.520 Oh, his name was Reginald 'conna. Actually didn't know reginal'conna. 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:26.280 We were never a friend, never hang out there or 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:28.720 anything like that. Too much put us together. 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:33.040 So Reginald Cotton was your co defendant in the trial. 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:36.040 He also was convicted. I was wondering whether you guys 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:38.040 had even known each other, but no, it's just random. 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:40.480 Were you in jail awaiting trial? Were you out on bail? 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:42.480 I was in jail in Rockers Island, in. 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:44.560 Rikers Island, Yes, that's a hell of a place to 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:46.600 be in jail. Was it as bad back then as 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:47.800 it is now? 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:48.760 It was worse then. 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:51.120 How long were you in Rikers awaiting the. 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:53.360 Trial about a year and a few months ago. 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:55.800 If you say that very casual, it's a long time, 0:08:56.440 --> 0:08:59.839 especially in that place. It was how much was bail? 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:01.480 Ye was? Then Bill said nobu? 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:05.560 Well yeah, I guess it was a kidnapping raider a child. Yes, 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:07.960 So yeah, they didn't send any bells. So you're stuck there. 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:11.600 A year and a quarter goes by and you finally 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:14.319 brought the trial. First of all, we tried together separately 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:16.920 to get it together with this guy who you didn't know. 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:19.360 Had you met him in Rikers? Was he there as well? 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:21.120 Actually, when I went to court, that's when I first 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:23.000 saw him. I know that we were charged to get 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:24.640 it right. I didn't see we didn't say, in the 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:27.040 same facility when we were on the island. 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:29.120 So you didn't get to know each other at all. 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:30.800 On the island. No, it's when I went to the 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:32.520 court that I saw him there and I was asking 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:34.599 what's going on? And he was clueless. 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:36.559 I of course he was because he was innocent too, 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:41.240 exactly right. So you your partners in this nightmare, so 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:45.319 to speak, strangers who were thrown together pretty much, Yes, 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:49.920 by this nightmare of police and prosecutorial misconduct and various 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:53.559 other factors that led to you being stuck in this situation. 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:56.480 You're such a positive person and you have such an 0:09:56.520 --> 0:10:00.920 amazing outlook, but when you went to trial, you must 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:03.400 have been somewhat skeptical because by now you had been 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:07.880 you knew you were innocent. It seemed obvious from everything 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:10.160 that I know about the case, it would be really 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:13.960 hard for even a corrupt system to say, let's put 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:16.920 it on this guy. I mean, they knew you were innocent. 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:20.120 Did you think that justice would be served? Or were 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:23.040 you at this point thinking I'm going down, They're going 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:24.400 to do whatever they have to do to get me. 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:26.439 Actually, when I was on let's reverse back back to 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:28.720 Ruckas Island. When I was on the island, I pretty 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:33.160 much I wasn't really doing anything to help to clear myself. 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:35.480 I was just saying that they had the run person, 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:37.360 and eventually they're going to get it right before you 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:39.480 can go to a nestroyal, because I was saying to 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:42.120 myself that I did not comment to crime. And there's 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:43.920 no person in the right mind who's going to come 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:45.640 and testify it to a crime that I know that 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:48.199 I didn't come. There's no way, So I wasn't really 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:50.120 doing anything. I was just like, you know, just like 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:54.199 probably just hanging out, you know, young twenty one years old. 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:55.640 I was just hanging out there and said, they're going 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:58.079 to get it right until when I went to trial. 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:01.160 I actually had this girl who actually it was not 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:02.880 in her right mind because she was an addict. 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:05.520 And let's talk about her for a minute, right, because 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:09.120 this is where the story gets really crazy. The witness 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:14.640 against you wasn't just some random person. It was actually 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:17.880 a heroin addict who was completely strung out, so strong 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:20.800 out in fact, that she had to be kept in 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:24.040 a locked room prior to the trial for three days 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:27.000 so that they would be sure that she would show 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:31.800 up and be somewhat sober in order to testify. Right, 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:35.120 we know now that she was used in up to 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:38.800 twenty cases. They would wheel her out whenever they needed 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:41.679 somebody to testify against, somebody who they didn't have any 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:45.400 evidence against. Here would come Bruneil did, the heroin addict, 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:47.760 and who knows what favors they were doing for her, 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:50.960 because we know back then in Brooklyn there was a 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:53.280 lot of framing going on. There were a lot of 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:58.440 deals being made with witnesses, which could have involved something 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:01.720 as basic as dropping charge against them, or even favors 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:04.960 that may have been done that would involve cash or 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:08.040 drugs or who knows, because this was a pretty big 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:11.640 favor she was doing them to testify falsely and perjure 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:15.200 herself to help them resolve a case that they really 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:17.920 didn't want to have to deal with in the correct manner. 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:21.880 But the idea that this woman who was obviously morally 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:25.960 bankrupt and completely just out of her mind exactly would 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:29.320 be used in twenty cases, I mean, that's something to 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:32.840 really reflect on and say. And of course it would 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:37.440 require someone with oversight of the whole situation to be 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:40.120 able to tie all those together and go, wait a minute, 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:45.000 how lucky could she be that she witnessed twenty different murders. Incredible, 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:47.640 But you didn't know about that while you were rikers. No, 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:49.040 you didn't know that they were going to wheel out 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:52.960 this heroinautic to testify again. So, in other words, so 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:56.640 you were actually and you had reason to expect that 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:59.839 you would be exonerated because you knew they couldn't have 0:12:59.880 --> 0:13:01.000 any evidence against you. 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:02.920 I didn't come at a crime. 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:04.720 So you still had faith in the system, and you 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:06.640 still thought you're going to go to trial, They're going 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:07.760 to figure out they made a big heart. 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:09.320 I was even I thought they wasn't going to go 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:11.640 to a trial. We're going to find out who coming 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:13.480 to crime before they even took me to trial because 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:14.560 I didn't come in a crime. 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:16.720 Right. But the bad news is, as we know that 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:20.000 when they arrested you, they stopped looking for the guy. 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:25.040 So you go to trial together. How long did the 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:27.760 trial last? You had a court appointed lawyer, I'm assuming 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:30.720 because you didn't have money, and was your lawyer? Did 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:32.720 he seem interested? Was he competent? 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:35.000 Was he at that time? I thought he was doing 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:38.280 his best, you know, because I didn't know pretty much 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:40.880 anything about to do to show the system and the 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:42.880 representation one that you should be getting. 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:45.200 I just did he come to the prison and meet 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:48.400 with you and interview No, he's shaking his head never. No, 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:51.720 you're looking at me like I'm crazy, So he never 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:54.439 came to interview you. I'm actually not a lawyer, but 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:57.560 I do have some common sense and would seem like 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:00.840 anybody who's going to represent somebody in a case in 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:04.439 which their life is literally at stake might want to 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:06.480 take the time, take one afternoon and say, you know what, 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:08.720 I'm going to go. I'm gonna skip my golf game 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:10.800 today and go over to Rikers and see what the 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:13.079 everthing has to say, see if he's got any information 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:14.400 that might be helpful. But that didn't happen. 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:16.640 No, I guess when you're intigends, you know you're not 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:17.559 that fortunate. 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:23.680 We know that public defenders are overworked, underpaid, overwhelmed. There 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:26.000 are a lot of very good ones, but you have 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:28.040 to be lucky to get one of those. It's almost 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:33.760 like another it's like a lottery. Then comes the moment, 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:36.400 so the jury goes out, they come back in. 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:41.720 If ID my guilty and second degree kidnapping. Because the 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:44.840 judge initially dismissed the murder, I take away in because 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:46.440 they said there was an evidence. 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:49.320 Right and and that's interesting too because the judge, let's 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:54.000 just reflect on that for a second. The judge refused. 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:57.400 To submit the murder charge murvidence. 0:14:56.760 --> 0:15:01.240 Because of lack of evidence. That's very powerful words. So 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:03.520 there was no evidence of that, but he allowed the 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:06.760 kidnapping charge to go forward. There was no evidence to 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:11.240 that either. Well the Capella there was Phoni why Brunilda 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:14.800 Capella and other than that, not only didn't they have 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:18.120 any physical evidence against you because there was no DNA, 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:20.360 there was no blood, there was no traces of anything 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:23.800 or anything, but they also withheld evidence that would have 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:26.080 proved that you were innocent, yes, at the time, and 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:28.400 it took you a long time to discover that. So 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:33.000 the kidnapping charge goes forward. There was a headband, right, 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:35.480 so this was another phony piece of evidence. There was 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:38.160 a headband, a black headband, I believe that was found 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:40.480 in the car, which they claimed. 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:46.280 Actually they're saying that Cramston investigator discover numerous items inside 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:49.600 a car, but this particular headband is said belongs to 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:52.280 the victim. And one of the reasons why the prosecutor 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:54.280 said it belongs to the victim because they said that 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:57.880 there was this violence struggling in the car between Meando's 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:00.160 victim and joining. This violin struggle with the headbund was 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:03.160 ripped up as a result of the violent confrontation between 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:06.000 me and the witness, and the evidence proved that this 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:09.760 car is the car because of this headband. But probably 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:11.840 a month after the trial are so the headbund was 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:14.760 distroyed because if it was kept into evidence, it would 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:16.440 have been tested, I would have proven that did not 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:19.800 belong to the victim. But one of one's daughter, and 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:22.480 I think the prosecutors are the police knew this. That's 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:23.920 why they get rid of it. So there was an 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:26.000 evidence that even tests right. 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:28.000 So let's just think about this for a seconds. So 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:32.320 there's a violent struggle in the car. Obviously you can't 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:35.600 see everything, but he's a big, strong guy, very muscular guy, 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:37.600 and there's a sixteen year old girl. So there's a 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:41.840 violent struggle. But there's no blood, there's no physical evidence. 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:41.920 No here. 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:42.720 But there's a head. 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:43.440 A head. 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:47.400 That's all that happened exactly. So they have to suspend 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:50.240 a lot of disbelief to get to that point. But furthermore, 0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:53.360 going off of what you said, later on, it was 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:56.080 discovered that the owner of the car, the same person 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:58.120 who said that the car had been at the church 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:01.120 service until five point thirty in the morning, in which 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:02.920 case it would have been impossible for this car to 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:05.000 be used in the crime at the time that the 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:09.359 only witness said that it was. That same person also 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:11.960 said that that had been belonged to their daughter. Yes, 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:16.080 so the problem is they didn't turn that evidence over 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:16.800 to the defense. 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:18.080 It was destroyed. 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:20.399 It was destroyed, but it was found later. I mean, 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:22.840 they had an interview. The evidence was destroyed, but they 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:25.359 had an interview with the owner of the car, which 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:27.000 they did not turn over, and that had to be 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:30.399 discovered years and years later. Had they turned that over, 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:32.760 the whole case falls apart. 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:35.399 Exactly because the detective had gone to her to ask 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:37.760 about her car and she told him that her car 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:39.399 could not have been used in her crime because she 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:42.200 was using it at that particular time. Anything that would 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:45.280 have underminded people's case was never turned over to us. 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:50.320 Right. That's again, that's where I really I just I 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:52.680 have a hard time processing that stuff. You know. It's 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:56.040 like I don't understand. I've never you know, I have 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:58.080 a lot of respect for law enforcement. I mean, we 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:01.520 need we need a justice system, we need prosecutors, we 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:03.840 need cops. You know. It's like when I was growing 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:06.720 up in the seventies, there was a bumper sticker that said, 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:08.320 you don't like cops, Next time you're in trouble, try 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:11.920 calling a hippie. Right, And so I'm very cognizant of 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:14.760 the fact that they play a very important role in society, 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:16.680 and I have a lot of respect for the fact 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:19.440 that they work at a dangerous job. Nobody's getting rich 0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:22.720 doing it. But the bad guys, the bad actors in 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:25.920 the system, inflict so much damage and the fact that 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:28.960 they are able to, Like I'm trying to take myself 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:32.800 inside the mindset of these detectives who went to interview 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:38.680 this woman learned at that moment that you were innocent, 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:44.760 as was Reginald, and just chose to ignore it because 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:48.320 it was more convenient for them to wrap this case 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:50.080 up and move on with their life. And then they 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:52.040 went home and ate dinner and did whatever they did, 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:54.520 play with their kids. And it's a hard one for me. 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:57.919 I don't know, maybe I just can't. I'm never going 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:00.080 to be comfortable with that. But that's what happened. And 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:05.320 now the jury comes back in. Tell me about that moment. 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:07.840 I'm sure that my mother was sitting in the court 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:11.119 room and the jewy came back and they said that 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:13.800 the beach a verse did. The judge asked what was 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:16.760 the verdict, and they said I was guilty of second 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:20.879 degree kidnapping. My mom actually screaming out in the courthouse 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:24.000 and it was like totally shocking. I mean it was 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:26.199 totally unbelievable to me when you know, when when I 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:29.040 heard that, because I said, I didn't you know, I 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:31.399 did not comment to scrime. I hope could I could you? 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:33.399 People actually found me guilty for crimes I know I 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:35.639 did not commit, and so I was just like like 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:37.399 just did standing like shock? 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:39.879 Did you say anything? Did you? 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:41.760 I just told you I did not commit a crime. 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:44.399