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Speaker 1: Everton Wagstaff is a source of inspiration to me that

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Speaker 1: I am just super grateful to have his talk that

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Speaker 1: he gives at the end of the episode that you're

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Speaker 1: about to hear, which was just stream of consciousness. Man,

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Speaker 1: he drops some knowledge that I really needed to hear,

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Speaker 1: and I think a lot of other people do too,

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Speaker 1: So please listen all the way through to the interview

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Speaker 1: I did with Everton Wagstaff back when it first aired

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Speaker 1: on February twenty seventh of twenty seventeen. The good news

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Speaker 1: is finally, after suffering through over two decades of wrongful imprisonment,

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Speaker 1: Everton received a fourteen point six million dollar settlement in

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Speaker 1: June of twenty seventeen. Everton, you deserve all the happiness

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Speaker 1: in the world and I wish you blessings on blessings.

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Speaker 1: You are a hero to me. With the police banging

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Speaker 1: on the door, open up.

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Speaker 2: The choice to be in that lineup was the last

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Speaker 2: choice I made as a free man. A year later,

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Speaker 2: I ended up writing the system.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to be one of those people who everyone

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Speaker 3: in the world is going to think as a monster

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Speaker 3: or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life,

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Speaker 3: and I'm just going to have to come to peace

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Speaker 3: with that.

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Speaker 2: Somebody was able to look at my picture in the

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Speaker 2: database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't.

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Speaker 2: I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they

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Speaker 2: might have to play in my hanging. They had been

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Speaker 2: told that two prison officers would have to participate in

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Speaker 2: my execution. Now I walked back inside that prison for

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Speaker 2: the last time. Man all help broke loose.

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Speaker 1: But in nineteen ninety two, Everton Wagstaff was arrested and

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Speaker 1: charged with the kidnapping, rape, and murder of a sixteen

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Speaker 1: year old girl, Jennifer Negron in Brooklyn, New York. Wagstaff

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Speaker 1: and another man who he didn't know, Reginald Connor, were

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Speaker 1: both convicted for the girl's brutal killing. His arrest and

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Speaker 1: conviction were based almost entirely on the word of a

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Speaker 1: drug addicted sex worker, a heroin addict named Brunilda Capella,

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Speaker 1: who claimed falsely that she discovered the body.

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Speaker 3: He's spent twenty three years behind bars, and spent even

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Speaker 3: longer than that fighting a legal battle against a justice system. Tonight,

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Speaker 3: this Brooklyn man, he is finally free. Everton Wagstaff's wrongful

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Speaker 3: conviction has been overturned.

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Speaker 1: He ultimately served almost twenty three years in prison and

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Speaker 1: survived based on an incredible positive attitude and a will

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Speaker 1: to live and persevere. He was exonerated in twenty fourteen,

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Speaker 1: and he's here today. This is his story.

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Speaker 2: I was so curious about coming to this Clenchion America.

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Speaker 2: A year later, I ended up writing the system.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flomm.

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Speaker 1: Today's guest is the one and only Everton Wagstaff. And

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Speaker 1: you'll understand why I say the one and only after

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Speaker 1: you get to hear his incredible story and his unique

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Speaker 1: perspective and wonderful attitude about everything that he's been through

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Speaker 1: and about the world in general. Everton, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me so, Everton. We have a

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Speaker 1: tradition here at Wrongful Conviction. We start at the beginning

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Speaker 1: and then we worked through the whole story right to

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Speaker 1: the present, starting back at the beginning. You're originally from Jamaica, right, yes,

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Speaker 1: and not Jamaica Queens.

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Speaker 2: Jamaica, actual Jamaican Island. Did Jamaica Island?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I know. Everybody's always giving you a hard

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Speaker 1: time about the Jamaican bobsled team. But that wasn't you.

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Speaker 1: That was some of the guys. Tell me about growing

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Speaker 1: up in Jamaica. First of all, did you have a

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Speaker 1: happy life there? What was it like?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was happy. I grew up with my grand appearance.

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Speaker 2: We pretty much have basic necessities. Weren't like in Nita

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Speaker 2: for any thing, you know, prett to live off the land,

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Speaker 2: nothing to complain about. It was fairly fairly well.

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Speaker 1: And you came here in your young twenties. What led

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Speaker 1: you to make the decision to come to New York

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Speaker 1: it's a big change.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know what, I've always heard about America And

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Speaker 2: I said, whoa, what was? And I was so curious

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Speaker 2: about coming to this country. I've been seeing all these things.

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Speaker 1: Had you ever been here before? No, you've never been here,

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Speaker 1: and you just decided to move exactly, pretty brave.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I was curious about here. But a

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Speaker 2: year later I ended up writing the system.

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Speaker 1: I mean unfortunately, Yeah, I mean that's a rude awakening,

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Speaker 1: like very not welcome to New York, right, exactly the

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Speaker 1: opposite of welcome exactly exactly. So you were living in Brooklyn, right,

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Speaker 1: when you got here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was living in Brooklyn. I that in the

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Speaker 2: Bronx with my mom, you know. Then I live on

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Speaker 2: my own in Long Island with a former girlfriend.

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Speaker 1: So you moved around a little bit, yes, And what

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Speaker 1: were you doing to make a living while you were

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Speaker 1: here in the beginning, Well.

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Speaker 2: I used to do a little construction with my step dad.

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Speaker 2: He used to be one of those guys that'd helped

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Speaker 2: with the Brooklyn Bridge.

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Speaker 1: So you came to America in what year, late.

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Speaker 2: Eighty nine, ninety early nineties, and.

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Speaker 1: A year later everything went wrong.

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Speaker 2: Everything went wrong, Yeah, which.

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Speaker 1: Is a crazy story. I mean, there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of crime in New York back then, and there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of pressure on the police to solve crimes. Yes,

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Speaker 1: And there was a terrible crime that happened at that time,

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Speaker 1: a young girl, sixteen year old girl was kidnapped, raped,

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Speaker 1: and murdered. So naturally there's going to be a lot

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Speaker 1: of pressure on the cops to resolve this and restore

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Speaker 1: some faith or some calm to the community. And they

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Speaker 1: ended up getting not only one wrong guy, but two

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Speaker 1: wrong guys. They ended up getting you and another guy, Yes,

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Speaker 1: And they managed to arrest and ultimately convict you without

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Speaker 1: any physical evidence exactly, which is it's a crazy story.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we hear so many crazy stories here on

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Speaker 1: wrongful conviction. Take us through it. So we're wor you

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Speaker 1: did they come and kick in your door or like

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Speaker 1: did how did you end up getting arrested and what

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Speaker 1: were you thinking at the time.

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Speaker 2: Actually I was on a payphone in East New York

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Speaker 2: and and my car came up and took me off

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Speaker 2: the phone and said that there and said it was

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Speaker 2: going to take me to the precinct to check something out.

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Speaker 2: And that was it. I ended up getting interrogated for

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Speaker 2: this crime. The ax me where I was between such

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Speaker 2: and such a time at tim I was nowhere in

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Speaker 2: the area. I was in Long Island. And they keep

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Speaker 2: saying that they have a witness Hooken said that I

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Speaker 2: commit a crime and before and so on, and I

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Speaker 2: tell them and I didn't commit a crime, And they

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Speaker 2: have the wrong person. So they had met the person

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Speaker 2: from at least from about twelve or eleven in the

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Speaker 2: afternoon until about one o'clock twelve one o'clock midnight. So

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Speaker 2: I put me on this line up to have this

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Speaker 2: girl came in. I know who it was at that time.

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Speaker 2: Came in and they said I was identifying as another

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Speaker 2: person who committed the crime. And I was like, this

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Speaker 2: is impossible. I didn't commit a crime if nobody to speak,

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Speaker 2: but I was not in the era. It's that you

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Speaker 2: guys said I was name in that era.

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Speaker 1: At the time we were interrogating. Did you have a

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Speaker 1: lawyer or anybody else? No, and no lawyer, nothing, And

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Speaker 1: so you're new in this country, yes, and it's got

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Speaker 1: to be totally bewildering and overwhelming. Did they threaten you.

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Speaker 2: Well, it didn't make a lot of fun of I mean,

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Speaker 2: because I told them that I needed to speak to

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Speaker 2: a lawyer and they asked me who I want me

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Speaker 2: to get that want me to get to Kobe and

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Speaker 2: Myers or something like that.

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Speaker 1: For those of you, for those of you who aren't

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Speaker 1: from New York, to Phobean Wires is sort of a

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Speaker 1: punchline because they're always advertising on TV anyway, That's why

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Speaker 1: he brought it up. So, yeah, so they're making fun

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Speaker 1: of you. They're probably bored too, because you're in there

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Speaker 1: for twelve hours, right, So did they give you anything

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Speaker 1: to eat or drink or anything like that? So you're

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Speaker 1: just sitting in this room for twelve hours. They're coming

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Speaker 1: in and out, and the typical interrogation, no videotaping, no nothing, nothing.

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Speaker 1: But you didn't admit to anything.

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Speaker 2: No, you know, I wouldn't admit to something I didn't do.

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Speaker 1: And ultimately the whole situation got really surreal, right because

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Speaker 1: they were so desperate it seems like in retrospect to

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Speaker 1: get a conviction that they went to pretty extraordinary lengths

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Speaker 1: to frame you. And talk to me about the other

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Speaker 1: guy who was convicted at the time.

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Speaker 2: Oh, his name was Reginald 'conna. Actually didn't know reginal'conna.

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Speaker 2: We were never a friend, never hang out there or

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Speaker 2: anything like that. Too much put us together.

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Speaker 1: So Reginald Cotton was your co defendant in the trial.

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Speaker 1: He also was convicted. I was wondering whether you guys

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Speaker 1: had even known each other, but no, it's just random.

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Speaker 1: Were you in jail awaiting trial? Were you out on bail?

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Speaker 2: I was in jail in Rockers Island, in.

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Speaker 1: Rikers Island, Yes, that's a hell of a place to

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Speaker 1: be in jail. Was it as bad back then as

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Speaker 1: it is now?

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Speaker 2: It was worse then.

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Speaker 1: How long were you in Rikers awaiting the.

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Speaker 2: Trial about a year and a few months ago.

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Speaker 1: If you say that very casual, it's a long time,

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Speaker 1: especially in that place. It was how much was bail?

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Speaker 2: Ye was? Then Bill said nobu?

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, I guess it was a kidnapping raider a child. Yes,

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Speaker 1: So yeah, they didn't send any bells. So you're stuck there.

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Speaker 1: A year and a quarter goes by and you finally

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Speaker 1: brought the trial. First of all, we tried together separately

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Speaker 1: to get it together with this guy who you didn't know.

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Speaker 1: Had you met him in Rikers? Was he there as well?

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Speaker 2: Actually, when I went to court, that's when I first

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Speaker 2: saw him. I know that we were charged to get

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Speaker 2: it right. I didn't see we didn't say, in the

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Speaker 2: same facility when we were on the island.

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Speaker 1: So you didn't get to know each other at all.

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Speaker 2: On the island. No, it's when I went to the

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Speaker 2: court that I saw him there and I was asking

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Speaker 2: what's going on? And he was clueless.

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Speaker 1: I of course he was because he was innocent too,

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Speaker 1: exactly right. So you your partners in this nightmare, so

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Speaker 1: to speak, strangers who were thrown together pretty much, Yes,

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Speaker 1: by this nightmare of police and prosecutorial misconduct and various

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Speaker 1: other factors that led to you being stuck in this situation.

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Speaker 1: You're such a positive person and you have such an

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Speaker 1: amazing outlook, but when you went to trial, you must

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Speaker 1: have been somewhat skeptical because by now you had been

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Speaker 1: you knew you were innocent. It seemed obvious from everything

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Speaker 1: that I know about the case, it would be really

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Speaker 1: hard for even a corrupt system to say, let's put

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Speaker 1: it on this guy. I mean, they knew you were innocent.

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Speaker 1: Did you think that justice would be served? Or were

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Speaker 1: you at this point thinking I'm going down, They're going

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Speaker 1: to do whatever they have to do to get me.

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Speaker 2: Actually, when I was on let's reverse back back to

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Speaker 2: Ruckas Island. When I was on the island, I pretty

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Speaker 2: much I wasn't really doing anything to help to clear myself.

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Speaker 2: I was just saying that they had the run person,

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Speaker 2: and eventually they're going to get it right before you

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Speaker 2: can go to a nestroyal, because I was saying to

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Speaker 2: myself that I did not comment to crime. And there's

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Speaker 2: no person in the right mind who's going to come

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Speaker 2: and testify it to a crime that I know that

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Speaker 2: I didn't come. There's no way, So I wasn't really

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Speaker 2: doing anything. I was just like, you know, just like

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Speaker 2: probably just hanging out, you know, young twenty one years old.

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Speaker 2: I was just hanging out there and said, they're going

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Speaker 2: to get it right until when I went to trial.

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Speaker 2: I actually had this girl who actually it was not

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Speaker 2: in her right mind because she was an addict.

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Speaker 1: And let's talk about her for a minute, right, because

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Speaker 1: this is where the story gets really crazy. The witness

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Speaker 1: against you wasn't just some random person. It was actually

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Speaker 1: a heroin addict who was completely strung out, so strong

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Speaker 1: out in fact, that she had to be kept in

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Speaker 1: a locked room prior to the trial for three days

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Speaker 1: so that they would be sure that she would show

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Speaker 1: up and be somewhat sober in order to testify. Right,

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Speaker 1: we know now that she was used in up to

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Speaker 1: twenty cases. They would wheel her out whenever they needed

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Speaker 1: somebody to testify against, somebody who they didn't have any

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Speaker 1: evidence against. Here would come Bruneil did, the heroin addict,

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Speaker 1: and who knows what favors they were doing for her,

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Speaker 1: because we know back then in Brooklyn there was a

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Speaker 1: lot of framing going on. There were a lot of

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Speaker 1: deals being made with witnesses, which could have involved something

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Speaker 1: as basic as dropping charge against them, or even favors

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Speaker 1: that may have been done that would involve cash or

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Speaker 1: drugs or who knows, because this was a pretty big

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Speaker 1: favor she was doing them to testify falsely and perjure

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Speaker 1: herself to help them resolve a case that they really

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Speaker 1: didn't want to have to deal with in the correct manner.

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Speaker 1: But the idea that this woman who was obviously morally

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Speaker 1: bankrupt and completely just out of her mind exactly would

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Speaker 1: be used in twenty cases, I mean, that's something to

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Speaker 1: really reflect on and say. And of course it would

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Speaker 1: require someone with oversight of the whole situation to be

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Speaker 1: able to tie all those together and go, wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: how lucky could she be that she witnessed twenty different murders. Incredible,

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Speaker 1: But you didn't know about that while you were rikers. No,

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Speaker 1: you didn't know that they were going to wheel out

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Speaker 1: this heroinautic to testify again. So, in other words, so

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Speaker 1: you were actually and you had reason to expect that

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Speaker 1: you would be exonerated because you knew they couldn't have

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Speaker 1: any evidence against you.

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Speaker 2: I didn't come at a crime.

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Speaker 1: So you still had faith in the system, and you

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Speaker 1: still thought you're going to go to trial, They're going

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Speaker 1: to figure out they made a big heart.

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Speaker 2: I was even I thought they wasn't going to go

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Speaker 2: to a trial. We're going to find out who coming

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Speaker 2: to crime before they even took me to trial because

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Speaker 2: I didn't come in a crime.

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Speaker 1: Right. But the bad news is, as we know that

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Speaker 1: when they arrested you, they stopped looking for the guy.

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Speaker 1: So you go to trial together. How long did the

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Speaker 1: trial last? You had a court appointed lawyer, I'm assuming

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Speaker 1: because you didn't have money, and was your lawyer? Did

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Speaker 1: he seem interested? Was he competent?

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Speaker 2: Was he at that time? I thought he was doing

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Speaker 2: his best, you know, because I didn't know pretty much

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Speaker 2: anything about to do to show the system and the

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Speaker 2: representation one that you should be getting.

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Speaker 1: I just did he come to the prison and meet

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Speaker 1: with you and interview No, he's shaking his head never. No,

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Speaker 1: you're looking at me like I'm crazy, So he never

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Speaker 1: came to interview you. I'm actually not a lawyer, but

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Speaker 1: I do have some common sense and would seem like

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Speaker 1: anybody who's going to represent somebody in a case in

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Speaker 1: which their life is literally at stake might want to

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Speaker 1: take the time, take one afternoon and say, you know what,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go. I'm gonna skip my golf game

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Speaker 1: today and go over to Rikers and see what the

285
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Speaker 1: everthing has to say, see if he's got any information

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Speaker 1: that might be helpful. But that didn't happen.

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Speaker 2: No, I guess when you're intigends, you know you're not

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Speaker 2: that fortunate.

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Speaker 1: We know that public defenders are overworked, underpaid, overwhelmed. There

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Speaker 1: are a lot of very good ones, but you have

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Speaker 1: to be lucky to get one of those. It's almost

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Speaker 1: like another it's like a lottery. Then comes the moment,

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Speaker 1: so the jury goes out, they come back in.

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Speaker 2: If ID my guilty and second degree kidnapping. Because the

295
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Speaker 2: judge initially dismissed the murder, I take away in because

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Speaker 2: they said there was an evidence.

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Speaker 1: Right and and that's interesting too because the judge, let's

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Speaker 1: just reflect on that for a second. The judge refused.

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Speaker 2: To submit the murder charge murvidence.

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Speaker 1: Because of lack of evidence. That's very powerful words. So

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Speaker 1: there was no evidence of that, but he allowed the

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Speaker 1: kidnapping charge to go forward. There was no evidence to

303
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Speaker 1: that either. Well the Capella there was Phoni why Brunilda

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Speaker 1: Capella and other than that, not only didn't they have

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00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,120
Speaker 1: any physical evidence against you because there was no DNA,

306
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Speaker 1: there was no blood, there was no traces of anything

307
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Speaker 1: or anything, but they also withheld evidence that would have

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Speaker 1: proved that you were innocent, yes, at the time, and

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Speaker 1: it took you a long time to discover that. So

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Speaker 1: the kidnapping charge goes forward. There was a headband, right,

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Speaker 1: so this was another phony piece of evidence. There was

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Speaker 1: a headband, a black headband, I believe that was found

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Speaker 1: in the car, which they claimed.

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Speaker 2: Actually they're saying that Cramston investigator discover numerous items inside

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Speaker 2: a car, but this particular headband is said belongs to

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Speaker 2: the victim. And one of the reasons why the prosecutor

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Speaker 2: said it belongs to the victim because they said that

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Speaker 2: there was this violence struggling in the car between Meando's

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Speaker 2: victim and joining. This violin struggle with the headbund was

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Speaker 2: ripped up as a result of the violent confrontation between

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Speaker 2: me and the witness, and the evidence proved that this

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Speaker 2: car is the car because of this headband. But probably

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Speaker 2: a month after the trial are so the headbund was

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Speaker 2: distroyed because if it was kept into evidence, it would

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Speaker 2: have been tested, I would have proven that did not

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Speaker 2: belong to the victim. But one of one's daughter, and

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Speaker 2: I think the prosecutors are the police knew this. That's

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Speaker 2: why they get rid of it. So there was an

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Speaker 2: evidence that even tests right.

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Speaker 1: So let's just think about this for a seconds. So

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Speaker 1: there's a violent struggle in the car. Obviously you can't

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Speaker 1: see everything, but he's a big, strong guy, very muscular guy,

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Speaker 1: and there's a sixteen year old girl. So there's a

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Speaker 1: violent struggle. But there's no blood, there's no physical evidence.

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Speaker 2: No here.

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Speaker 1: But there's a head.

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Speaker 2: A head.

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Speaker 1: That's all that happened exactly. So they have to suspend

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Speaker 1: a lot of disbelief to get to that point. But furthermore,

340
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,360
Speaker 1: going off of what you said, later on, it was

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Speaker 1: discovered that the owner of the car, the same person

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Speaker 1: who said that the car had been at the church

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Speaker 1: service until five point thirty in the morning, in which

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Speaker 1: case it would have been impossible for this car to

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Speaker 1: be used in the crime at the time that the

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00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:09,359
Speaker 1: only witness said that it was. That same person also

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Speaker 1: said that that had been belonged to their daughter. Yes,

348
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:16,080
Speaker 1: so the problem is they didn't turn that evidence over

349
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Speaker 1: to the defense.

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Speaker 2: It was destroyed.

351
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Speaker 1: It was destroyed, but it was found later. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they had an interview. The evidence was destroyed, but they

353
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Speaker 1: had an interview with the owner of the car, which

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Speaker 1: they did not turn over, and that had to be

355
00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,399
Speaker 1: discovered years and years later. Had they turned that over,

356
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:32,760
Speaker 1: the whole case falls apart.

357
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Speaker 2: Exactly because the detective had gone to her to ask

358
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Speaker 2: about her car and she told him that her car

359
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Speaker 2: could not have been used in her crime because she

360
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,200
Speaker 2: was using it at that particular time. Anything that would

361
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,280
Speaker 2: have underminded people's case was never turned over to us.

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Speaker 1: Right. That's again, that's where I really I just I

363
00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:52,680
Speaker 1: have a hard time processing that stuff. You know. It's

364
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Speaker 1: like I don't understand. I've never you know, I have

365
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Speaker 1: a lot of respect for law enforcement. I mean, we

366
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Speaker 1: need we need a justice system, we need prosecutors, we

367
00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:03,840
Speaker 1: need cops. You know. It's like when I was growing

368
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,720
Speaker 1: up in the seventies, there was a bumper sticker that said,

369
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:08,320
Speaker 1: you don't like cops, Next time you're in trouble, try

370
00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,920
Speaker 1: calling a hippie. Right, And so I'm very cognizant of

371
00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,760
Speaker 1: the fact that they play a very important role in society,

372
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Speaker 1: and I have a lot of respect for the fact

373
00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,440
Speaker 1: that they work at a dangerous job. Nobody's getting rich

374
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,720
Speaker 1: doing it. But the bad guys, the bad actors in

375
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Speaker 1: the system, inflict so much damage and the fact that

376
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Speaker 1: they are able to, Like I'm trying to take myself

377
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,800
Speaker 1: inside the mindset of these detectives who went to interview

378
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:38,680
Speaker 1: this woman learned at that moment that you were innocent,

379
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,760
Speaker 1: as was Reginald, and just chose to ignore it because

380
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,320
Speaker 1: it was more convenient for them to wrap this case

381
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,080
Speaker 1: up and move on with their life. And then they

382
00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,040
Speaker 1: went home and ate dinner and did whatever they did,

383
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,520
Speaker 1: play with their kids. And it's a hard one for me.

384
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Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe I just can't. I'm never going

385
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Speaker 1: to be comfortable with that. But that's what happened. And

386
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Speaker 1: now the jury comes back in. Tell me about that moment.

387
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:07,840
Speaker 2: I'm sure that my mother was sitting in the court

388
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,119
Speaker 2: room and the jewy came back and they said that

389
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Speaker 2: the beach a verse did. The judge asked what was

390
00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,760
Speaker 2: the verdict, and they said I was guilty of second

391
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,879
Speaker 2: degree kidnapping. My mom actually screaming out in the courthouse

392
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,000
Speaker 2: and it was like totally shocking. I mean it was

393
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,199
Speaker 2: totally unbelievable to me when you know, when when I

394
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,040
Speaker 2: heard that, because I said, I didn't you know, I

395
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,399
Speaker 2: did not comment to scrime. I hope could I could you?

396
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,399
Speaker 2: People actually found me guilty for crimes I know I

397
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,639
Speaker 2: did not commit, and so I was just like like

398
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:37,399
Speaker 2: just did standing like shock?

399
00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:39,879
Speaker 1: Did you say anything? Did you?

400
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:41,760
Speaker 2: I just told you I did not commit a crime.

401
00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:44,399
Speaker 2: You said, so, yes, I did not comment in a crime.

402
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:56,680
Speaker 1: And then they took it away. Yeah. So now your

403
00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,200
Speaker 1: sense was twelve and a half to twenty five years.

404
00:19:59,320 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 2: Yes.

405
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,800
Speaker 1: The problem with that is aside from the fact that

406
00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,399
Speaker 1: you were innocent and that you shouldn't have been in

407
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,919
Speaker 1: the system in the first place, the problem is that

408
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,520
Speaker 1: twelve and a half to twenty five could actually mean

409
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,199
Speaker 1: life because when you're sends to twelve and a half

410
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,560
Speaker 1: to twenty five, you're eligible for parole after a period

411
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,560
Speaker 1: of time. But in order to get parole, you have

412
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:25,760
Speaker 1: to express remorse. You have to which is essentially the

413
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:30,359
Speaker 1: same as admitting guilt. Yes, and I want to get

414
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,000
Speaker 1: to that, but first I want to talk about your

415
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:37,480
Speaker 1: experience in prison, because we've spoken about it before and

416
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Speaker 1: it's quite remarkable that you are this joyful? Is the

417
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,320
Speaker 1: best way I can describe your attitude about life. And

418
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Speaker 1: I know from having spent time with you and talked

419
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,520
Speaker 1: about your years, your decades in prison, that you maintained

420
00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:00,400
Speaker 1: an upbeat and positive attitude through a situation that would

421
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,560
Speaker 1: have broken down a different man, a different person. What

422
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:04,640
Speaker 1: did it? How did you do it?

423
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,440
Speaker 2: Well? You know, I know I was innocent of this crime.

424
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 2: I know I had truth on my side. I know

425
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 2: that somebody was lying about this crime, and I know

426
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 2: it was not I wasn't the one lying about it.

427
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,399
Speaker 2: Kind of it in a comment of crime. And I

428
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,000
Speaker 2: will tell to myself that I have to do something

429
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,919
Speaker 2: about it, because we have to show that the truth

430
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 2: means something. If I just sit there and just didn't

431
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 2: do anything that means I would, it would be a

432
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,000
Speaker 2: betrayal to the truth. I mean, so I had to

433
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:35,760
Speaker 2: do something if it mean I have to sacrifice. But

434
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,560
Speaker 2: sobeit and actually at first I didn't pretty much have

435
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 2: an indication about the judicial system, the police reports and

436
00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:46,560
Speaker 2: all these things. It's after having gone through a lot

437
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,119
Speaker 2: of studying. I got books and rent books because I

438
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 2: used to work in a general library interlibrary loan books.

439
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,800
Speaker 2: I rent books from the outside, study what PaperWorks mean what,

440
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 2: and all these things and try to compare them under

441
00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,639
Speaker 2: some contrast, and all these things. And it was just

442
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,320
Speaker 2: doing this time that I actually went and found those reports.

443
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,679
Speaker 2: And I tell myself that I could not have just

444
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 2: sit there and just like throw a pity party or

445
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,439
Speaker 2: anything like that, you knowest I could not do that.

446
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:13,439
Speaker 2: I have to fight. I have to do what I

447
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 2: have to do, and that's the only way I would

448
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,400
Speaker 2: be I would have been vindicated. And I went to

449
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,760
Speaker 2: the legal research course inside here, I passed and get

450
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,639
Speaker 2: a paralegal certificate where I could work in a lot

451
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,199
Speaker 2: of library and help other inmates. And while I was

452
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 2: doing these things, this is the other things that actually

453
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 2: keeps me going. I used to read books and newspapers,

454
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:34,919
Speaker 2: articles that came through the lot of library and the

455
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,920
Speaker 2: general library where other peopils were being vindicated, you know,

456
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 2: of crime that I didn't come to commit. So these

457
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 2: are some of the things that I have seen that

458
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 2: actually give me some sense of hope because I said,

459
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 2: you know, one day it's going to be me, because

460
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,439
Speaker 2: I know the truth adventure was going to vindicate me.

461
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,479
Speaker 2: Were you angry when I was first convicted. I actually

462
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,520
Speaker 2: sit and cry and ask God why me? You know,

463
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 2: I didn't comment to scribe God, why didn't Why did

464
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 2: you allow this to happen to me? And I asked

465
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,120
Speaker 2: a friend of mine who was there, and he said

466
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 2: to me, his question was because God knew what you

467
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 2: was gonna do, that he was going to fight it,

468
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 2: probably for something else that you probably put it in

469
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 2: the past or something like that probably would just sit

470
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 2: back and just didn't different to it. But God know

471
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 2: that you did not come and to describe it. You

472
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 2: know that you would have fight the way you did right, No,

473
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,440
Speaker 2: you were fighting, and that's the reason probably why. And

474
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 2: it makes sense.

475
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 1: But it's interesting because having spoken to so many and

476
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 1: they've been very fortunate to be able to spend time

477
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 1: and learn from literally hundreds of exgneries over the years

478
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 1: I've been doing this, you know, they all have a

479
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 1: different version of what you're saying. Some of them went

480
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:44,200
Speaker 1: in angry, bitter, scared, but then they turned it around somehow.

481
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: But it sounds like to me like you were like steadfast,

482
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 1: Like at first you had your moment, you allowed yourself

483
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 1: to cry, and then it sounds like you just bounced

484
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 1: uf you had this one guy who was like a

485
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 1: mentor kind of like who sort of steered you spiritually

486
00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 1: or whatever.

487
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 2: There wasn't any time to true pity party or anything

488
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 2: like that. There is only time to be bitter. It

489
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 2: is something that has to be done, and there was

490
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,439
Speaker 2: any other way to do it but through me. Actually,

491
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 2: I used to rely on other people to help me

492
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 2: to fight my kids, to write so because I couldn't

493
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 2: even write properly, you understand, I used to have to

494
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,439
Speaker 2: rely on in me to actually read some of the

495
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 2: stuff with me and try to explain to me to

496
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 2: me about some of these issues. And I said to myself,

497
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 2: you know what, if I'm going to prove that I'm innocent,

498
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 2: I cannot be really, I can't expect to rely on

499
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 2: these people to do something for me that I should

500
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,880
Speaker 2: be doing for myself. And so that's when I start

501
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 2: to actually get books. I started to like when I

502
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 2: passed my GD because that's where I get my ged

503
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 2: college course. Who was thereby taking out the college course

504
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 2: the prison system. So what I did when I work

505
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 2: in the general library, I used to study, do my

506
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 2: own independent study insiety or starty read books, all different

507
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 2: books anxiety and educate myself in the general library because

508
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 2: I realized that I was on a mission and I

509
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 2: can it is no time for to be bitter, to

510
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,159
Speaker 2: carry any animasity, because all I was going to do

511
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 2: is defeat the whole purpose, Because why would why should

512
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 2: I consprail with something that I already have, my dear,

513
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 2: but I didn't if I was already doing time for

514
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 2: something I didn't do, So why would I choose to

515
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:08,880
Speaker 2: hay taut to to be bita when it's not gonna

516
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 2: help me. You're not gonna cause me more harmran anything else.

517
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 2: I didn't not have any time for that.

518
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: But you realize that is a very advanced spiritual practice

519
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,160
Speaker 1: almost and it's so extraordinary for me and I think

520
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 1: many others who are listeners and fans of the show.

521
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: It's really powerful to hear you and others who've been

522
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 1: through this talk about that, because I've never been through

523
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: anything vaguely resembling the stuff that you've been through. But

524
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: I think it's good for you to know, and I

525
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 1: hope you know that it's so inspiring, you know, to

526
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 1: be able to take what you're saying and try to

527
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 1: incorporate that into daily life and take a more you know,

528
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 1: zen for lack of a better word, approach to the

529
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 1: life's daily problems. And so I appreciate you sharing that

530
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: you know personally, and I'm sure there's a lot of

531
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: people who will were able to draw and have a

532
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 1: happier day or week or life as a result of

533
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: hearing your voice. I think that's that's really an amazing

534
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: it's phenomenal. There came a point when you were eligible

535
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 1: for parole. Yes, at this point you had contacted the

536
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 1: Innocence Project by now, but you hadn't heard back yet

537
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: as to whether the case had been or had you.

538
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 2: Never interacting like writing comic expanded me about the case

539
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 2: and so forth. And the evidence that been Actually took

540
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 2: a while for them to discover any evidence in my key,

541
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 2: because at first I said the evidence could not be found,

542
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 2: and it was after Jim Dwyer wrote an article about it,

543
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 2: because during that time, this guy here, he was just

544
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 2: he was in the Bronx Alan Newton had a problem

545
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:45,360
Speaker 2: finding his evidence.

546
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: Yes, I did.

547
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 2: And then eventually they went back ten years later and

548
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 2: found the evidence in the exact place where it was

549
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 2: ten yure earlier. So so what Jim did he combined

550
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,919
Speaker 2: both cases unsure the problem of finding the any evidence

551
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 2: that would exconerate inn send people. So after the article

552
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 2: is the DNA evidence was eventually found.

553
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. Jim Dwyer, for those of you who haven't read

554
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 1: his stuff, is a fantastic investigative reporter in New York.

555
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: And this is not atypical, right the Innocence Project, Before

556
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 1: we take a case, we have to find out, we

557
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 1: have to do the research to find it if there's

558
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 1: evidence that so that we can help. So you were

559
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: sort of in between, but you had hoped that the

560
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: Innocence Project might take your case exactly. But you also

561
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 1: had another option, right, which is that your parole was

562
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: coming up. But you took a very principled stand at

563
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: this point in time, which is I think a hard

564
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 1: one for some people to understand, because you literally had

565
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 1: at a certain point an option of getting out of

566
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: prison if you would have done certain things. Yes, but

567
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: you refused.

568
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:44,719
Speaker 2: Yes.

569
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: So let's talk about.

570
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 2: That well, Jason, the part of what is there for

571
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 2: people who committed their crime? And why would I go

572
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 2: to a board to admit there to show remorse for

573
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 2: something that I know I didn't coming.

574
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 1: When you would you refuse to even go to the

575
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 1: prole board. Yes, right, and that's again that's a that's

576
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: a heavy thing, I think for a lot of you.

577
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: For me, it's amazing because people would think, well, you

578
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:10,880
Speaker 1: got to get out of prison. I got to get

579
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 1: out of here, right, But you were not going to

580
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 1: do it. You're not going to admit to really a brutal,

581
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 1: terrible crime exactly.

582
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 2: And then that would just subject me to ridis as

583
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 2: a sex offender. And I told you that, but I

584
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 2: would be dictated when one way to go and when

585
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 2: to go to bed I went to sleep or something

586
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 2: like that.

587
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: So it would be like being in prison on the exactly,

588
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 1: and you were going to stand and fight for what

589
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 1: was writing. But I mean spending the rest of your.

590
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 2: Life in prison, spend the rest of my life. It's

591
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 2: incredible because I would be a free money insided and

592
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 2: I would if I had to come out here.

593
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's almost like a double penalty. But Reginald

594
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 1: chose to take the other option and I and I

595
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: can certainly, as I said, I can relate to that.

596
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: I think it's it's almost like a Sophie's choice, right,

597
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,479
Speaker 1: you have two options and they're both bad. One is

598
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 1: you admit guilt in essence.

599
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 2: Well, I don't think Regie actually to admit guilt because

600
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 2: his law you had written PaperWorks to the board professing

601
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: his innocence, proclaiming is innocence than everything, right, So I

602
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 2: guess that's play a factor in his release too in

603
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 2: two thousand and four.

604
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: But did he have to register as a sex offender

605
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: and all that stuff? Yes, if he was innocent, he

606
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: wouldn't have to register exactly right, so you know. And

607
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: the other problem with that is, of course, if you

608
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: accept those conditions or terms what everyonet to call it,

609
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: you forego any opportunity to sue for your wrongful conviction. Right,

610
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: you have to sign those rights away essentially, So it's

611
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: a very very difficult decision to have to make. And

612
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: what happened had you eventually when your.

613
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 2: Freedom conditional release came up for me to be released,

614
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 2: this is when all he had to do was just

615
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 2: sign up paper and walk out. But again that would

616
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 2: have subjected me to register again as a sex offender,

617
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 2: and I refuse to sign those paper. So ten years

618
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: early on, the parler would probably would have been paroled

619
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 2: had I gone to the BO and then five years

620
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 2: after my conditional release, and I signed a paper then

621
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 2: I would have to spend five extra year in prison.

622
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 2: But I refuse to sign that paper, and I tell

623
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 2: myself that I was going to be free. I know

624
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 2: the TRUDEO was going to vindicate me sooner.

625
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: Or later, and we know that it did. Bill, you

626
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: wouldn't be here now. But let's talk about that. So

627
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 1: the Innocence Project took your case and eventually twenty fourteen.

628
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I was during that time. I was I

629
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 2: had Belldock helping too with my case. He was doing

630
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 2: the part where there's no involvement of dating evidence or

631
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 2: anything like that. It was studying the police reports and

632
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 2: all these things, because that's when I started to write

633
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 2: everything about what I discovered, showing them what I've discovered

634
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 2: and showing that I did not comment the crime, that

635
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 2: there was a fabrication, and you know, showing the purports

636
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 2: and all these things.

637
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: And Bell Doc again for those who may not know,

638
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: it's Myron Bell Doc.

639
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 2: Yes.

640
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: So he's a very respected criminal defense attorney in New

641
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: York and he had taken your case bono. Yes, right,

642
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 1: So now you have two very powerful weapons in your

643
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: arsenal all of a sudden right, it went from being

644
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: basically on your own, to be well, not basically totally

645
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: on your own, to having two great organizations advocating exactly

646
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: because it was clear to us at the Innocey's project

647
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: and also to Bell Doc and his friend that you

648
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: were an innocent man exactly. So how did it end up?

649
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 1: We heard about the terrible day when you were convicted,

650
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: We heard about the horrible day when you were arrested.

651
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: I want to hear about the day when you were

652
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: exonerated and how did it get to that point and

653
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: what was that like?

654
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 2: Well, we had initially file emotion, the motion was denied

655
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 2: by Justice Sparker, and then we have to file emotion

656
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 2: to the Appalliate Court showing why the kid should have

657
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 2: been dismissed because of the fabrication and the late Britty

658
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 2: turned over that show that the kids was actually fabricated

659
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 2: against us. So did they put the second department looked

660
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 2: over the keys, took them like six months, six or

661
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 2: six months, and it came back and not only did

662
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 2: they dismiss the conviction, but they also dismiss the evidence

663
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 2: in that means againstans, showing that the report that should

664
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 2: have been turnover to us at trial. Was never turnover,

665
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 2: and that would show that the detectives and the witness

666
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 2: was not foot right with their allegation. They pretty much

667
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 2: fabricate the whole thing they did.

668
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 1: I mean not even pretty much, just straight fabricated.

669
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 2: The whole thing. So I normally call Kim. She was

670
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 2: a former correction officer. She would pay a pivotal part

671
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 2: in my keys because she used to help with like

672
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: getting information to the lawyers and so forth, like nothing

673
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 2: that would jeopard as her job or anything like that.

674
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 2: I called a family member and they told me that

675
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 2: there was a decision right and I at first I

676
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 2: didn't know. They were hysterical, like crying on the phone

677
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 2: and everything. And I actually I even know how to

678
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 2: feel anymore. I just like, good, like you guys can cry.

679
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 2: Let me look over the decision and everything and read

680
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 2: it over. I should have been like happy, excited and

681
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 2: everything like that. But there was no sense of excitement

682
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 2: because again earlier of what the lower court did, because

683
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 2: here is it, I hope was all the way to

684
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 2: the ceiling and they just knocked it all the way down.

685
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 2: But that doesn't stop me from from hoping.

686
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: But this family member. Who was it? Was it your

687
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: was it your mom or an uncle or who is

688
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: it that you spoke to?

689
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 2: It was a Kim uh, the farm of correction officer

690
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 2: that I was there. I spoke to her, but then

691
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 2: she had already retired from her job.

692
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: So did you believe it?

693
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 2: You know what I was like, I got back something

694
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 2: that shouldn't have been taken away from you in the

695
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 2: first place. So it's not like it shouldn't have been

696
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 2: taken away from me.

697
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: Of course, So you didn't have really a sense of joy.

698
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: It wasn't the mirror image of the despair that you felt.

699
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: It was more of a thing of just sort of

700
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: justice is done, and now let me move on with

701
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: my life exactly exactly, like a resolute kind of exactly exactly. Now,

702
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,959
Speaker 1: let's get on to the other part of the story,

703
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: which is incredible, Right, let's talk about love. So Kim

704
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 1: is kind of an important figure in your story.

705
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 2: Right.

706
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: So Kim was a correction officer in Green Correctional Facility,

707
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 1: and you developed a relationship with her, not a physical relationship,

708
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 1: but sort of a connection exactly with her while you

709
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: were locked up there. Yes, and then that took on

710
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 1: a new meaning when you were released. Everton ended up

711
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: marrying Kim, who had been a correctional officer in the

712
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 1: prison in which he was incarcerated, which sounds like if

713
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: you put it in a movie, somebody would go, get

714
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 1: the fuck out of here. That's impossible, but it actually happened.

715
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:38,919
Speaker 1: How did that go down?

716
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 2: Well? When I was the fight in working on my case,

717
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 2: I worked a lot of library where she actually was

718
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 2: a supervising officer in that area. She used to work

719
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 2: a couple of days there and used to work in

720
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,399
Speaker 2: the upfront where she would monitor telephone calls, and I

721
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 2: normally would call out to my lawyer. Then had this

722
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,720
Speaker 2: lawyer who was actually represent in Kanna. I was axing

723
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 2: for her help, and I wanted her to actually have

724
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 2: other lawyers involve in the case. And I was trying

725
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 2: to her telling her I don't need sympathy, I need help,

726
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,399
Speaker 2: you know, And I don't think I've been get enough help,

727
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 2: but I should be getting. And I think came over

728
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 2: her this conversation and she was like somewhat taken aback

729
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 2: because she said, Damn, this guy's actually innocent and shouldn't

730
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 2: be here. So I guess she developed some feelings there

731
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 2: for me then and then you know, and trying to

732
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 2: see what she could do to help while I was there,

733
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 2: you know, and then after I you know, because of

734
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 2: what she's done from over the years, and I, you know,

735
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 2: there was anybody at the time helping. I had no

736
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 2: support pretty much helping me. At that time. I was

737
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 2: everything was done on my own insiety. I have to

738
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 2: go to school and kid myself and study whatever I

739
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 2: need to be study. In other words, I was like

740
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 2: alone of fighting all these things. And then she came

741
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 2: along and tried to help, you know, play help in

742
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 2: the process, like can't help to contact lawyers, German suffordance

743
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 2: on so speak on my.

744
00:35:55,120 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: Behalf, sort of like an angel in exactly exactly exactly.

745
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 1: That's amazing. So and ultimately, you know, you resisted any

746
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: temptation to develop a physical Really I had to.

747
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 2: I could not develop. Number One, I whispered her job.

748
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 2: I whispect her as that person. I would not have

749
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 2: done anything to undermine her job.

750
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 1: Right because she would have been in big trouble exactly.

751
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,919
Speaker 2: So there was nothing unbecoming inside or anything like that.

752
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: Nothing right, And we know that that goes on in prison, right,

753
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 1: there's a lot of that. Yes, sure, but you but

754
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,839
Speaker 1: you resisted, which is a you know, we talked about

755
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 1: it before. It's an incredible temptation. You've been alone for

756
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,760
Speaker 1: over two decades now, but you resisted, which was again

757
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 1: a principled and intelligent and thoughtful and difficult thing to do.

758
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 1: But the good news is that you eventually were released.

759
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 1: She was really almost placed there as somebody to give

760
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: you that extra supported.

761
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 2: Exactly to exactly I look at it in that sense.

762
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 1: And so that was a great thing. And then ultimately

763
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: you were freed, and then you contacted her and a

764
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: relationship developed and which led to ultimately being married.

765
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean because of what you have done too

766
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 2: for me too. I mean she was there when again

767
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 2: no one wasn't there ja when I was in the

768
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 2: bottom of the pit, understand. So I mean that's somebody

769
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 2: who I could never like break ties with. She embedded

770
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,320
Speaker 2: a place in my heart at all time. It doesn't

771
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 2: matter where. She's always going to be in my heart,

772
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 2: I mean, and I would always do everything in my

773
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:34,240
Speaker 2: poet to me the show that she's Okay.

774
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 1: Well, I mean it's an incredible love story. It's an

775
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 1: amazing way to end. But I don't want to end

776
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 1: without going back to your time in prison. You mentioned

777
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 1: the education program in the prison, and I want to

778
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,720
Speaker 1: talk about that because I think a lot of people

779
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: are skeptical, and there's some people out there who say, well,

780
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: why should we pay to educate guys in prison? We

781
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 1: don't pay enough money for the regular educ or whatever

782
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: they say, right, And I have a very different view

783
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 1: on it, not only from a public safety perspective, where

784
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 1: we know that men and women who've been through an

785
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: education program in prison when they come out are extremely

786
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 1: unlikely to reoffend. But how important was it to you

787
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: to have that education option or that education program available

788
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: to you in prison.

789
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 2: I mean, it was very important that because if it

790
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 2: wasn't for that, who else would I have help to

791
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 2: educate myself? I mean, even though it was taken away

792
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 2: when I first got my ged, because again, I think

793
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 2: Governor Parteka was the government at that time, and I

794
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 2: get some of the public was probably sure the same

795
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 2: feelings that why should they talk have to be to

796
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 2: have to educate these people, you know, for you know,

797
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 2: when they are criminals, unsufford and so on. But they

798
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 2: have to realize too that these are the same people

799
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 2: who are going to come back and re into society,

800
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,399
Speaker 2: So why not use it as a cost to help them?

801
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: Exactly. I think it's critically important that we provide this

802
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 1: option thanks to people, and it allows for a sense

803
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 1: of hope. And I know this from having spoken to

804
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: other exoneries who've been through it. I mean, even Jeff

805
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:10,399
Speaker 1: Deskevic has been on the show. I mean he said

806
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: if not for that, he probably would have killed himself

807
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 1: in prison because he had nothing else. I'm glad we

808
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 1: brought that up. Now. We talked a bit earlier about

809
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: the things that you derived your inspiration from, right, and

810
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: you talked about some of the books and some of

811
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: the teachings that allowed you or that helped you, or

812
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: that inspired you to keep a positive attitude and to

813
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: be able to carry on day after day in this

814
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: miserable place, with the loneliness and the frustration and you

815
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 1: know all the other terrible things that come with being

816
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: in the max of security prison. It was really the

817
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 1: books that did it, wasn't it.

818
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 2: Well, I the books did it. And plus I know

819
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 2: that I want to be of help to life, to

820
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 2: humanity as a whole, and I know I could not

821
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,280
Speaker 2: just sit there and those focus exclusively on my case.

822
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 2: What can I do in the mean? And while I

823
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 2: was working on my kids, it was something that I

824
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 2: had to do. I couldn't just like make it be

825
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 2: my number one, so I have to say say no

826
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 2: what during that case, I read especially at mansurcial Meaning

827
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 2: by Victor frank Kill. Victor frank Kill may referenced that

828
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 2: it wasn't a condition that kills him, but the lack

829
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,240
Speaker 2: of hope. And I have experienced the same thing inside

830
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 2: that place where I was, because I've seen a lot

831
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 2: of guys inside here, Jason. I mean a lot of

832
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 2: guys just like after being hit so many times at

833
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:27,919
Speaker 2: the board, just gave up and their system just started

834
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 2: a fight against them. They have to be put on medication.

835
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 2: Some of them just checking to hospital ward and they

836
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 2: just went down and just out. I've experienced so many times.

837
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 2: I've experienced this particular guy whose very own immune system,

838
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 2: Jason eats away at his own body because of lack

839
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 2: of hope. I've have been been hit so many times

840
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 2: at the Board, and I was so privileged to spoke

841
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 2: speak to that guy one day in the library and

842
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 2: I explained to you that and give telling my situation

843
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 2: and how I will never give up hope and never

844
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 2: even despite it being hit so many times, that deny

845
00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 2: so many times that the power board not to give

846
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 2: up hope, to keep fighting, keep fighting because eventually you

847
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 2: will be released. And like actually a few probably a

848
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 2: year or so later, he was actually released. You know,

849
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 2: it's serious, I mean, and these are some of the

850
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 2: things that I have seen. And as a result, I

851
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 2: told myself, Jason, that I could not sit there and

852
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 2: feel any pretty ported despite of what happened to me,

853
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 2: despite of the denial of times from the other course

854
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 2: and everything, I did not allow that to stop me

855
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 2: at first. At first, Yes, I feel dawn when I

856
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 2: first get hit, done something like when I was denied

857
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 2: and all these things, but I didn't dwell on it. Jason.

858
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,479
Speaker 2: The problem is a lot of us dwell too much

859
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 2: when something is done. Now we think it's wrong, do

860
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 2: something about it. Don't just sit about and try to

861
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 2: be angry, are bit or anything, because that's not going

862
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 2: to do anything to help find another road that you

863
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 2: could go and tackle that problem and get it out

864
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 2: of the way.

865
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: So if anybody out there is think about having a

866
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: petty party, they shouldn't invite you because you're not No,

867
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: I'm not coming.

868
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 2: I don't want to hear it.

869
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,280
Speaker 1: You're not coming. But now that's amazing because you actually

870
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 1: had a very profound effect on this man who was

871
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 1: giving up hope, and you were able to snapping back

872
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,439
Speaker 1: into reality. And then next thing, you know, a year later,

873
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 1: it's like it's like a miracle exactly.

874
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 2: And you know what, And that's the thing about working way.

875
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 2: I work boat in the general library under the library,

876
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,280
Speaker 2: and I was able to meet a lot of people

877
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 2: who have been have gone to the board so many

878
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 2: times and get hit at the board so many times,

879
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 2: and I have I was there to like just give

880
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 2: them some hope, like speak to them about listen, look

881
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 2: look at my condition. For example. I mean I didn't

882
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 2: commit a crime. I'm here suffering as if I did

883
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 2: a crime. But at the same time, I'm not giving

884
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 2: up hope because I know I would be vindicated one day.

885
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 2: And the same thing, that principle that I use to

886
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 2: help me to maintain my mind my sonny inside, you

887
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 2: can't use the same principle. I doesn't have to be

888
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 2: in prison. The same principle kill be applied. Audio by

889
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 2: anyone in any situation.

890
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: Well, that is a message that is as good as

891
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: any that we could possibly share. And I know it's

892
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 1: going to help me and so many others to get

893
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: through things that we're all going to go through at

894
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 1: different times. I do want to just give a quick

895
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 1: plug because Everton has been doing some great work helping

896
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 1: out risk youth and working with them, but also going

897
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:11,399
Speaker 1: and doing public speaking on a professional basis, and so

898
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:12,840
Speaker 1: I want to share if it's sorry with you, I

899
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 1: want to share your email address so that people can

900
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 1: reach out. You speak at schools, at colleges, corporations, basically

901
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 1: anywhere that somebody needs to hear this message of tragedy, triumph,

902
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 1: and I guess it's optimism, positivity, and strength. I mean

903
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 1: that's really what it is. And so everything in your

904
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:33,320
Speaker 1: email address.

905
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 2: Is make a difference and live at gmail dot com.

906
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 1: Okay, that's kind of perfect. Make a difference and live

907
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. A more appropriate email address I

908
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: couldn't imagine for a guy like you, So reach out,

909
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 1: and he's a guy you really want to get to

910
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 1: know better than you can even just on the podcast. Everton.

911
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 1: It's been a real pleasure and a privilege having you

912
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,359
Speaker 1: on the show. Is there anything else that you want

913
00:43:58,400 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 1: to say? Or we sign on.

914
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 2: Well, it doesn't matter where we are in this world,

915
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 2: it don't matter what we are going through. We must

916
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 2: always understand that there is always a way out. And

917
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 2: sometimes the problem is that we tend to look too

918
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 2: much for guidance from our five senses. We have to

919
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 2: learn to go beyond those five senses because example, when

920
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 2: I was going through what I was going through, I

921
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 2: was in prison, for example, and I if I was

922
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 2: just focusing on my condition, my current situation, I would

923
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 2: stay depressed and all these things would have kicked in

924
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:31,920
Speaker 2: hopelessness and our dispair would have kicked in. But I

925
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 2: realized that there's another side to the five senses that

926
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 2: the five senses doesn't understand, I will never understand. And

927
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 2: that's where we have to learn to dwell in that

928
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 2: spiritual aspect of who we are, because these are the

929
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 2: things that help us to elevate any mountain, gods, amount,

930
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 2: any problem. And we have to remember that do not

931
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 2: just dwell on your five sentences and what you're going through.

932
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 2: Don't focus on those senses. Of course there they are

933
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 2: beneficial tools, but they're not the moving fact that they're

934
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 2: not the determined facts in our life. There should be

935
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 2: just a vehicle that determines that that only take away

936
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 2: and stick instruction from us the spiritual side of who

937
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 2: we are. Remember that we have to know how to

938
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 2: steer it on, how to guide it. All.

939
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 1: Right, I think that says it all. This has been

940
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 1: a very inspiring episode of wrongful conviction and it's all

941
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 1: because of you everything. Thank you again for being here.

942
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

943
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 1: Wish you all the best, and I'm looking forward to

944
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: seeing you and watching you do more and share more

945
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 1: wisdom with everybody you want to thank you. Don't forget

946
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: to give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts.

947
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 1: It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the

948
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in

949
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 1: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future

950
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how

951
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:54,839
Speaker 1: to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our

952
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 1: production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in

953
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 1: the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

954
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,760
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction

955
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction.

956
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 2: Podcast.

957
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,280
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

958
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one