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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Oh, welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. It's Wednesday, January fourteenth, and yes,

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Speaker 2: we had a stacked night of headlines. So we're following

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Speaker 2: this new trial that involves an affair BDSM which is

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Speaker 2: a very specialized website, and a plot to frame a stranger,

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Speaker 2: so lots of things heating up in that one. Also

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Speaker 2: the harrowing and heartbreaking new testimony in the Uvaldi trial.

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Speaker 2: We know that the school officer is being now put

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Speaker 2: on trial to see is he the reason that these

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Speaker 2: tragedies were not stopped? And it's really really hard to

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Speaker 2: hear new defense in the Long Island serial Killer. I'm

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Speaker 2: dying to talk to you guys about this, and also

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Speaker 2: our very favorite prosecutor, Jarrett Farantino, is here to answer

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Speaker 2: any of your legal questions. We've been aggregating some of

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Speaker 2: our own, but you could always jump in and leave

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Speaker 2: us a talk back if you have any specific cases

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Speaker 2: you want us to talk about ladies.

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Speaker 3: How are you happy Wednesday? Everybody happy Wednesday? Everybody we

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Speaker 3: find we made it. We made it, We made it alive.

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Speaker 2: Through this week.

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Speaker 4: It's it feels like this has been like the longest

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Speaker 4: week ever and it's only Wednesday.

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Speaker 3: It feels like it's getting darker earlier, and I know

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Speaker 3: that's not a fact.

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Speaker 2: I think.

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Speaker 4: See, I think it's getting lighter.

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Speaker 2: I am begging for it to get lighter.

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Speaker 4: Are you like that? I like it dark?

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Speaker 2: Oh, I like it light seconds. Oh yeah, I'm the

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Speaker 2: total of That's why we're perfect, because that's why we

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Speaker 2: balance each other very well.

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Speaker 4: In the daytime, I'm like a slug when the sun's so,

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Speaker 4: I'm like, whoa, let's.

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Speaker 2: Party, let's go. I'm ready. Oh my goodness, I'm ready

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Speaker 2: for a cup of coffee. I got to be propped

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Speaker 2: up at a certain point. So yeah, I'm glad to

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Speaker 2: be with you guys. Cority, where do you want us

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Speaker 2: to begin tonight with.

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Speaker 3: The case we haven't spoken about up until now. So

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Speaker 3: Brendan Banfield. He's a forty year old former IRS agent

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Speaker 3: out of Virginia. So his trial just began for allegedly

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Speaker 3: plotting with the family's au pair to kill his wife,

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Speaker 3: Christine Banfield. This happened in early twenty twenty three. And

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Speaker 3: my misspeak about a pair and affair is because Brendan

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Speaker 3: Banfield indeed was having an affair with the nanny.

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Speaker 2: No. Yes, so Brandon's having an affair with the pair

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Speaker 2: nanny right, like Brandon, really, can we be more original? Wow?

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Speaker 2: And then they plot together.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so the defendant and keep in mind, we'll get

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Speaker 3: to it in a second, but only Brendan Banfield is

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Speaker 3: on trial. So the defendant, Brendan Banfield and the up

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Speaker 3: pair again they're hot and heavy with an affair and

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Speaker 3: decide to cook up a plot to frame their murder

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Speaker 3: of Christine Banfield, the wife and mom. They plan to

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Speaker 3: frame the murder on a complete stranger named Joseph Ryan.

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Speaker 3: And this stranger they found going on BDMS websites, which

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Speaker 3: is what is it? Bondage, sado masochism, a missing dominie.

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Speaker 3: I was too embarrassed to ask, Come on, who can

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Speaker 3: tell us?

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Speaker 5: I'll look it up really quick.

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Speaker 2: But bondage and us to.

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Speaker 3: Do with bondage and dominatrix and sadomasochism. So Banfield and

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Speaker 3: the uppair they go. They find this perfect stranger on

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Speaker 3: a website, Joseph Ryan, and convince him to come to

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Speaker 3: the home in an effort to make the planned murder

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Speaker 3: of Christine Banfield look like an intruder came in to

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Speaker 3: kill her. And the pair has pleaded guilty to a

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Speaker 3: lesser charge and is now testifying against Banfield.

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Speaker 4: MM.

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Speaker 2: So that was a messy setup. Did you guys get

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Speaker 2: that a total three way? If she so? Obviously? But

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Speaker 2: this is the person was in your house and if.

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Speaker 6: You're curious, it was SU stands for bondage, discipline, dominance

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Speaker 6: and submission.

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Speaker 4: So do they meet on some kink website?

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Speaker 2: Yes, it was called fet life.

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Speaker 3: So it is it is stipulated by the prosecution that

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Speaker 3: Brendan Banfield created a fake account on fetlife dot com,

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Speaker 3: which is BDSM and kink community site, and he did

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Speaker 3: it under the false identity pretending to be his wife Christine.

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Speaker 3: M That's right, Lord him over, And so the crime

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Speaker 3: itself happened February twenty fourth, twenty twenty three, after being

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Speaker 3: lured there under false pretend is pretend his pretenses. The

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Speaker 3: other victim, Joseph Ryan, arrived at the home he believed

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Speaker 3: he was meeting with Christine Banfield for a totally consensual encounter.

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Speaker 3: And at that point, the defendant, Brendan Manfield and the

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Speaker 3: au pair they led him inside, they locked the doors

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Speaker 3: and staged a scene to look like a violent home invasion.

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Speaker 3: These yeah, and at that point, Banfield allegedly stabbed his

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Speaker 3: wife victim Christine Banfield. He stabbed her in the neck

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Speaker 3: repeatedly and shot the victim, Joseph Riah.

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Speaker 2: Let me guess there was an endgame of revenge or

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Speaker 2: an insurance policy, Like, how could this possibly be the plan?

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Speaker 3: So what it was was that Banfield allegedly didn't want

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Speaker 3: to go through a divorce because it would be expensive

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Speaker 3: and there was the concern over child custody.

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Speaker 2: Oh well this worked out. Well, this seemed like a

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Speaker 2: better option. I mean, that's Banana's unbelievable. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And ps, so not only has Banfield been indicted on

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Speaker 3: charges of aggravated murder, but also child abuse and felony

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Speaker 3: child cruelty because the said child that he was so

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Speaker 3: worried about, the four year old daughter, was home during

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Speaker 3: this crime.

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Speaker 4: What, oh god, unbelievable these people and now this child

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Speaker 4: that doesn't have a mother orif Oh.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, goodness, So the case talking about it, Yeah, the

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Speaker 3: case will be heavily focused on the nanny's testimony, but

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Speaker 3: the defense is already waving flags and saying that her

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Speaker 3: version of events, you know, she is incentivized.

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Speaker 4: To lie and therefore or don't believe what she has

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Speaker 4: to say. So she's testifying against him. Did she get

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Speaker 4: some kind of deal, she.

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Speaker 3: Got a plea deal to a lesser charge, and then

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Speaker 3: is in turn testifying against him.

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Speaker 2: Interesting?

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Speaker 3: Interesting, Okay, right, and then another big part of the

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Speaker 3: defense in this is they're questioning what they're calling the

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Speaker 3: narrative around who was sending the messages to this man

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Speaker 3: they learned over Joseph Ryan, the other very sad victim

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Speaker 3: who lost his life in this, I mean, a man

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Speaker 3: is dead after yeah, after agreeing to a consensual encounter.

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Speaker 4: Dating websites are so scary, honestly, going to like, I mean,

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Speaker 4: we often talk about how dangerous it is for women,

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Speaker 4: but I mean this is a man. I mean it's

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Speaker 4: certainly dangerous for them too. That we really don't perfect

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Speaker 4: a lot of strangers home. Yeah, don't Cy's house ever.

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Speaker 2: A serial killer? He was curious? And Yeah, also, you know,

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Speaker 2: we'll talk about that later, but that's when there's a will,

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Speaker 2: there's a way that's true.

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Speaker 3: But this I find particularly sickening. The defendant Banfield and

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Speaker 3: the nanny or whomever was messaging him more convinced the victim,

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Speaker 3: Joseph Ryan, Hey, when you come over to the house

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Speaker 3: for role play scenario, let's play out something involving chains

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Speaker 3: and a knife. So he brought those items with him.

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Speaker 3: The plan was to make him look like he was

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Speaker 3: an intruder and he had his own props.

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Speaker 4: They used the BDSM fetish he had against us exactly,

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Speaker 4: which is just I don't know, somehow some extra level

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Speaker 4: of depravity of let's get this poor stranger and help

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Speaker 4: implicate him in the planning of his own murder.

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Speaker 2: Any of things had gone according to their plan.

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Speaker 4: It's brilliant, right, like if you think about it, like,

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Speaker 4: it's like brilliant, but smart people, they're not.

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Speaker 2: Clearly, my goodness, you're going to ring for something else.

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Speaker 2: I was just going to say that, so good, right,

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Speaker 2: so beyond like this plan as the alternate ending that

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Speaker 2: seems wiser and smarter like that doesn't happen. Nobody gets

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Speaker 2: away with that.

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Speaker 3: Nobody, no, and you know, one of you had said,

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Speaker 3: cliche and totally cliche. The affair between the pair with

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Speaker 3: the pair. Yeah, it's been going on for about two

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Speaker 3: years before this murder plot became. The wisest thing to

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Speaker 3: do is.

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Speaker 2: A celebrity where this happens, not the murder part, but

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Speaker 2: the pair part.

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Speaker 4: Oh no, well him, but isn't it Jude Law?

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Speaker 3: Oh, no Law or Gavin rossdeel Gavin.

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Speaker 2: I think that's right.

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Speaker 4: Jude Law was somebody British. Yeah, I'm sorry, Brittain.

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Speaker 2: I love you guys.

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Speaker 4: I don't mean to despair you, but I think it's

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Speaker 4: somebody British. But Arnold Schwarzenegger famously he had a child

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Speaker 4: with his nanny.

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Speaker 2: Right. I think that was just the maid. Oh okay,

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Speaker 2: I thought was looking at her.

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Speaker 5: I don't think then we.

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Speaker 2: Cleared that up. Yeah, but like the pair, that's like

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Speaker 2: they live with you. Oh, it's such a lifetime. It's

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Speaker 2: like a live in nanny. Right.

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Speaker 6: I pulled up like three or four. Jude Law was

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Speaker 6: involved with one.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, Ethan hawk Hawk and Tarik el Musa.

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Speaker 3: I'm saying I name it correctly, but he he is

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Speaker 3: like an h G t V guy and him and

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Speaker 3: his wife were on the show.

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Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, harek uh yeah k and Christina on the

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Speaker 6: coast Yeah, being the parent.

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Speaker 2: Yeah right, this is true. Crank Tonight and iHeart Radio.

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Speaker 4: I'm body moving and I'm here with Courtney and Steph

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Speaker 4: and we're right in the middle of talking about the

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Speaker 4: all Pair murder. Right, I guess that's what we're calling it.

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Speaker 4: If you want to weigh and give us a call

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Speaker 4: eight to eight thirty on crime or hit us on

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Speaker 4: the talkbacks in the iHeartRadio app. So the defense is

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Speaker 4: questioning whether or not he really sent the messages or

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Speaker 4: if she did. Is that what they're they're arguing about.

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Speaker 2: That's right?

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Speaker 3: Or was it telling Well also, it's you know, it

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Speaker 3: could have been anyone.

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Speaker 2: It could have been Christine herself. We don't know.

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Speaker 3: We can't prove who was doing this. Maybe the four

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Speaker 3: year old was playing around on the computer. I mean,

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Speaker 3: they're really I know.

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Speaker 2: I know, but this is the problem. It's so hard.

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Speaker 2: We're all being so desensitized. It's so hard to prove anything.

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Speaker 2: I mean, again, that's so silly, but we are being sensitized. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's like, oh, the four year old could do it,

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Speaker 2: you know, no access to what end.

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Speaker 4: Right, and have been Oh my god, imagine your four

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Speaker 4: year old, right, does that's essentially what that is?

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Speaker 2: Right? Horrible? Well, we did. We did a case.

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Speaker 3: It was a Manhattan case and a man killed his wife.

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Speaker 2: This ended up happening.

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Speaker 3: They found out that he killed her after the poor

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Speaker 3: woman was exhumed, and yeah, the man completely framed his daughter.

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Speaker 2: Which was so people people have done it.

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Speaker 3: No, so I'll be I'll be very curious how this

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Speaker 3: trial continues.

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Speaker 4: Does she say, Juliana, who's the pair in the situation.

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Speaker 4: I'm just learning about this case just now, so I

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Speaker 4: know literally nothing about it. Do you know if she

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Speaker 4: says the plan the whole time was always to kill

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Speaker 4: the guy, I'm assuming you know.

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Speaker 2: It's funny.

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Speaker 3: We we looked that up and didn't find conclusively.

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Speaker 4: But maybe she hasn't gotten there yet.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but but also, how how could it not be

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Speaker 3: what you invite a stranger in.

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Speaker 2: And then hope this stranger doesn't open his mouth.

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Speaker 4: Literally, as it was coming out of my mouth, I

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Speaker 4: wanted to put it back in. Like that was a

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Speaker 4: dumb question. I was like, oh, no, put that back

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Speaker 4: in my mouth. No, yeah, I asked the same question,

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Speaker 4: but that's the question.

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Speaker 2: No, I think that's a very reasonable explanation, like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's the process of thinking at least.

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Speaker 4: Right, So, okay, they they they're having an affair.

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Speaker 2: I just want to summarize it.

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Speaker 4: They're having an affair. They want to get rid of

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Speaker 4: the wife because it's too expensive to get a divorce

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Speaker 4: and they're worried they're going to lose the child in custody.

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Speaker 4: So they say, they come up with a plan. They're

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Speaker 4: going to get somebody from a BDSM website, which is

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Speaker 4: like you know, Dominatrons and bomb bage and whatnot, which

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Speaker 4: is literally, we don't kink shang here, it's legit there. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: we don't care. So they create an account on fet

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Speaker 4: life and they pretend to be the wife, right, and

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Speaker 4: they meet this guy on fet life. They lure him

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Speaker 4: over and say, hey, we want to do some role playing,

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Speaker 4: so make sure you bring some chains and a knife.

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Speaker 4: That way he you know, there's evidence at the scene

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Speaker 4: that he broke into the house with this weapon, with

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Speaker 4: violent weapons.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so that's how he ended up dead.

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Speaker 4: Right, So the idea was that they were going to

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Speaker 4: have him break into the house quote unquote kill the wife,

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Speaker 4: and then the wife shot him back.

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Speaker 6: I'm guessing I think we're going to sort of frame

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Speaker 6: it to make it look that way.

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Speaker 4: They were going to frame it.

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Speaker 2: This was written down. They would say, Oh, it's way

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Speaker 2: too Hollywood of his story. It doesn't sound like it's possible.

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Speaker 2: It sounds completely fake.

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Speaker 4: It sounds like a lifetime movie, right, he does.

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Speaker 3: And in the preparation, I mean, there was a lot

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Speaker 3: of thought in preparation with this, including the defendant. You know,

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Speaker 3: the husband brought the up air to the shooting range

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Speaker 3: to teach her how to handle a gun and a

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Speaker 3: whoa yeah, And I believe I didn't speak clearly before

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Speaker 3: because in the actual little crime itself, what's being alleged

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Speaker 3: is that Brandon Banfield was allegedly stabbing his wife Christine

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Speaker 3: in the neck repeatedly. He shot Joseph Ryan, and then

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Speaker 3: when she realized that Joseph Ryan was still alive, the

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Speaker 3: au pair then shot him as well.

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Speaker 2: So they had their hands in this.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so they both participated in the killing. If her

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Speaker 4: testimony that's right, Wow, Well, I definitely want to keep

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Speaker 4: following this one because that's very very interesting. I think

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Speaker 4: when we come back, harrowing testimony from survivors of the

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Speaker 4: Uvalde school shooting and later Attorney Durrant Fiorantino is joining

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Speaker 4: us keep it right here True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here, Courtney

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Speaker 2: Armstrong and body move in and listen. A tough day

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Speaker 2: in court today. The Uvaldi trial underway. And we've talked

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Speaker 2: about this many times. Obviously the security officer who who

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Speaker 2: really it appears, did nothing and choked on the job,

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Speaker 2: is standing trial. And man, if you talked to me

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Speaker 2: a week ago, I kind of felt differently, maybe not

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Speaker 2: that this matters, but I kind of had a lot

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Speaker 2: of empathy for them and him is he the guy

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Speaker 2: of this whole thing? But boy, the fastimony, it's really rough,

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Speaker 2: So triggerler, we're going to be sharing some of that.

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Speaker 2: If it's too much. You know, we're defined as eight

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Speaker 2: eight eights, no shame, one crime, Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 4: You know, if it is too much, don't take There's

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Speaker 4: no shame in not listening because it is a lot.

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Speaker 4: It's really heavy and these are children and recounting harrowing details,

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Speaker 4: you know, but that's what the court is, right, So

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Speaker 4: The trial of the former Yuvalde school officer the Resource

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Speaker 4: Office vers Sir Adrian Gonzalez, entered its seventh day today

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Speaker 4: in Corpus Christy, Texas. Right, and it's focusing on his

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Speaker 4: alleged failure to act during the May twenty fourth, twenty

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Speaker 4: twenty two shooting at rob Elementary School. You guys, I

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Speaker 4: feel like this just happened, and it's already been almost

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Speaker 4: four years.

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Speaker 2: And we've gotten so I down a rabbit hole, Like

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Speaker 2: I just feel like we're a little numb to it.

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Speaker 4: So maybe that's why we talk about it, right percent,

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Speaker 4: I totally agree. So the defendant in this case, Adrian Gonzalez,

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Speaker 4: he faces twenty nine counts of child endangerment or abandonment,

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Speaker 4: with prosecutors arguing that he ignored his training and delayed intervention,

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Speaker 4: allowing the massacre of nineteen students and two teachers to continue.

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Speaker 4: The shooting went on for seventy seven minutes, despite over

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Speaker 4: four hundred officers responding.

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Speaker 2: To the scene.

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Speaker 4: Right, So, this this resource officer was the first one

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Speaker 4: on the scene because he you know, kind of works there,

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Speaker 4: so he was already there on scene, and they're alleging

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Speaker 4: he did nothing to stop it, Stephanie. I know this

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Speaker 4: is something that you know, Waste.

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Speaker 2: Really didn't do anything. You know. I like to believe

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Speaker 2: as a human being that he woke up that day

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Speaker 2: assuming he would have big courage in the moment. Sure,

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Speaker 2: and maybe in that moment, despite training, despite just like

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Speaker 2: something in sideways in his head, because you want the

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Speaker 2: instinct to be to save, and now you hear these

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Speaker 2: harrowing moments and final ones that could have been avoided.

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Speaker 2: It's hard not to feel charged up. You know. Taha

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Speaker 2: and I were talking about it. That's why it's so important.

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Speaker 2: I guess pre trial that there's such a big discussion

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Speaker 2: about what is is not admissible in terms of details, right,

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Speaker 2: crime scene photos, audio, reading these texts, exclamatory. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: very hard not to feel. It's really hard not to feel.

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Speaker 2: It's awful, it is.

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Speaker 4: And the testimony I'm going to read is very emotional, right,

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Speaker 4: It's very emotional. And you know this testimony is being

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Speaker 4: read or given at the trial for this resource officer,

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Speaker 4: and you know it's really impactful, and I do again

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Speaker 4: want to warn people that it's very, very terrible. So

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Speaker 4: a fourth grade teacher, mister Reyes he testified today, and

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Speaker 4: he said he survived the shooting by playing dead. None

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Speaker 4: of his students survive m He describes being shot twice

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Speaker 4: and witnessing the shooter taunt him. So he's laying there

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Speaker 4: playing dead. All his students have died, and the you know,

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Speaker 4: the after the I mean, the shooter thinks he's dead, right,

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Speaker 4: and the shooter is taunting him. It's that's I mean,

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Speaker 4: think imagine it. That's is terrible. Alisa Avia, she's a

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Speaker 4: fourth grade teacher. This is this is really sad. She

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Speaker 4: was shot while in lockdown, so the school went on lockdown, right.

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Speaker 4: She was shot while in lockdown, and students were comforting

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Speaker 4: her as she crawled for help. These middle fourth grade

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Speaker 4: babies were comforting their teacher. They were this is I'm

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Speaker 4: going to use quotes here. They were staying quiet. They

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Speaker 4: were hugging each other. They were helping each other stay quiet.

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Speaker 4: Some were tapping me, telling me miss, miss we love you,

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Speaker 4: we love you.

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Speaker 3: You're going to be okay. So what from the mouths

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Speaker 3: of babes. Oh, it's like, what do we do? So

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Speaker 3: he's going to stand trial. He's looking at.

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Speaker 2: Two years, right, so he was maximum, he was he

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Speaker 2: didn't do his job, and you know that is for

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Speaker 2: jarn sure, so but past that, let's assume that to

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Speaker 2: be even with the truth, like what's the productive thing here?

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Speaker 2: Like how do you get around here?

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Speaker 3: My only whole question and this is so I mean,

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Speaker 3: this is again we've talked about everyone having seen the

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Speaker 3: footage of those four hundred officers a military it was

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Speaker 3: so many things in life are not preventable, including in

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Speaker 3: some instances even the beginning of a school shooting. Right,

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Speaker 3: excuse me, but this was preventable at many points. My

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Speaker 3: only hope, Stephanie, and I've thought about this a lot,

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Speaker 3: as we all have, is that by having this officer

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Speaker 3: and upcoming the chief of police on trial, that that

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Speaker 3: the possibility of legal consequences and ramifications may have some

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Speaker 3: some places realigning their training so as not to do it.

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Speaker 3: So that that is my hope is that this is

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Speaker 3: some almost cautionary to you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is a wake up call. That's that's all

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Speaker 2: I can hope.

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Speaker 4: For in the heat of the moment, right, because I mean,

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Speaker 4: obviously that's what happened here. There's you know, there's training

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Speaker 4: and then there's reality, right, and then the heat of

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Speaker 4: the moment. Maybe this guy just froze, right, like his

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Speaker 4: training just went out the window. And I'm not I'm

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Speaker 4: not making excuses for it.

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Speaker 2: I know. If that's true, that's what I want.

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Speaker 4: I don't need it to be true, right, That's what

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Speaker 4: I'm assuming happened, right, And the goal here is to

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Speaker 4: make change for the positive, right exactly. And I don't

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Speaker 4: know that you know, punishing this guy, which I think

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Speaker 4: he deserves, by the way, that punishing this guy is

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Speaker 4: going to make the next one react, right.

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Speaker 2: So important to change?

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Speaker 6: Could it change the training process?

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Speaker 4: So yes, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm trying to.

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Speaker 2: Get to the right place.

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Speaker 6: Or also in this case, I know the defense is

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Speaker 6: also focusing on like doors that malfunction.

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Speaker 5: And things like that.

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Speaker 6: So there, this might push people in the direction of like, Okay,

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Speaker 6: you know we're going to be held liable down the road,

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Speaker 6: check those doors. Let's do some extra steps in the

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Speaker 6: training to make sure people are ready for what kind

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Speaker 6: of things now suddenly happen in society. I understand, I

399
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Speaker 6: mean I do. There's a side of me that does

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Speaker 6: still feel a little bad for this man, because I

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Speaker 6: think if I were in that same situation. I don't

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Speaker 6: know what I would do if I were trained, and

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Speaker 6: you're not expecting to see something on this level, but

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Speaker 6: you need to be We got to do something.

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Speaker 2: Something has to change.

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Speaker 4: Right, Evaluating with the hiring process needs to be better.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's that's it.

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Speaker 3: That's my hope is that within the training people that

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Speaker 3: can then be better points out of Okay, you are

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Speaker 3: more potentially more or less suitable for this position.

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Speaker 4: Like more psychological like exams or things like that, right, exactly.

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Speaker 6: That's a good point, the psychological side, right.

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Speaker 4: Maybe some positive I mean, there's nothing positive, you know,

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Speaker 4: out of any of this, but if something positive can

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Speaker 4: come from it and we learn how to be better

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Speaker 4: to protect these children from these manias, so it doesn't keep.

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Speaker 2: Happening again and again and again. I mean, this is

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Speaker 2: like otherwise, it's a writs and repeat. It's awful.

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Speaker 4: It's been decades and it's just school shooting after school shooting.

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Speaker 4: And I remember when this happened and watching all it

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Speaker 4: unfold that night, I kept thinking about the first responders

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Speaker 4: having to go into that school after you know, they

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Speaker 4: took out the shooter, and I was like, I mean,

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Speaker 4: I was imagining like you know, the ambulance workers and

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Speaker 4: you know, the e mts and whatnot, and just how

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Speaker 4: awful the scene must have been.

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Speaker 2: And I was just I just listen.

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Speaker 4: I mean, obviously it's terrible for the little kids and

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Speaker 4: the teachers that died, no question, no, just imagining like

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Speaker 4: the EMTs with those little bodies. It's just so difficult.

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Speaker 4: I don't know why I'm getting into that detail.

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Speaker 2: No, because we get into the ripple of it.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: I have a friend who deeply loved somebody who survived

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Speaker 2: the Parkland shooter. Oh, we had to play dead and

436
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,879
Speaker 2: I'm paraphrasing, but to survive it. He played dead and

437
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 2: the shooter walks right by him. And you know those

438
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 2: that leaves the Mark, Yeah, I was at Mark.

439
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 4: That reminds me that first testimony I read the fourth

440
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 4: grade teacher or Infernal Reyes, and I don't know how

441
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 4: to pronounce his name properly. I APOLOGI mister Rayes, and

442
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,679
Speaker 4: he's you know, he survived by playing dead and he

443
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 4: saw the shooter taunting him. I mean, imagine that you're

444
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 4: a shot and you're in pain, and you're laying there

445
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 4: and you're bleeding, and then you see this guy and

446
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 4: you're playing dead. This guy is taunting you like, you know,

447
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:18,120
Speaker 4: I mean.

448
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 2: That does a bike stent.

449
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 6: It didn't make complete sense to me though, if he

450
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 6: is playing dead like he did the.

451
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,479
Speaker 2: Guy, it might have been thought he's dead, Like why

452
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 2: would you taunt.

453
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 4: Verbal like, you know, saying words things like that. Yeah,

454
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 4: not that.

455
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:32,719
Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't want to dig into that.

456
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 4: It was a whole day of emotional testimony. The victim's mom,

457
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 4: Alana Garcia, her mom, Jennifer Garcia, testified and she recounted

458
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 4: the day of the shooting in the moment that she

459
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 4: learned about her daughter, and she said, Aliana wanted to

460
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 4: come home early that day, but I told her to

461
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 4: stay and participate in the end of the year pizza

462
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 4: party with her class. But she wanted to come home.

463
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 4: Remember they had that award ceremony, yes, you know, and

464
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 4: they had pictures from that award ceremony that day and

465
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 4: all those beautiful children holding up their certificates, you know

466
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 4: that they have gotten from their classrooms. Well, they were

467
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 4: having a big pizza party after class, and her mom

468
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:13,439
Speaker 4: wanted her to stay.

469
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 3: As any mother, it's the kind of you know, four sight.

470
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 3: But listen, if you are just joining us right now.

471
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 3: We're talking about the Uvaldi officer who is standing trial

472
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 3: for in action during the shooting. This is true crime tonight,

473
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 3: and if you want to weigh in, we're at eighty

474
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 3: eight three one crime. There was a video of the defendant,

475
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:49,199
Speaker 3: Adrian Gonzalve Gonzales, and it was a recorded interview that

476
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 3: the jury watched about why he didn't enter the school initially,

477
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 3: and one of the quotes, it did cross my mind,

478
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 3: but we were just never We were just covering each other.

479
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 3: That's basically what we were doing.

480
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 4: Right, So he wasn't They weren't. They weren't see they

481
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 4: were covering each other. They weren't worrying. Well maybe I'm

482
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 4: sure they were worrying about the children, but they weren't

483
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 4: acting like they were caring about the children. They were

484
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 4: covering each other.

485
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 2: Like they just didn't know that they were supposed to

486
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:21,159
Speaker 2: be covering.

487
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 3: That's someone else wasn't doing what was maybe be done,

488
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 3: and they all it just I mean, I think maybe

489
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 3: realized that was their job, which I recognize.

490
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 2: It must be so difficult to hear as a victim's

491
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 2: family member, I mean, right, that's a tough one.

492
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 4: We're going to keep following this and keeping you updated

493
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 4: on the testimony coming up and the verdict of course,

494
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,199
Speaker 4: will be following that. But I have some news in

495
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 4: Ohio if you guys want to talk about that really quick, I.

496
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 2: Have absolutef update.

497
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 4: So it's been it's been reported now that the family

498
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 4: of Spencer Tepe. Remember Spencer Tepe and his wife Monique

499
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 4: were killed in a Hio on December thirtieth, and it

500
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 4: was a double murderer, and it went unsolved for about

501
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 4: two weeks, right, and they arrested Monique's husband, Beautiful Monique.

502
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 4: She's a victim in this case, her ex husband, Michael McKee. Right, Yeah, Well,

503
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 4: the family of Spencer Tepe again, this was Monique's current

504
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 4: husband and he's a victim in this case. The family

505
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 4: of Spencer said they are not surprised with the arrest.

506
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,479
Speaker 2: In fact, she had shared some stories which she and

507
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 2: this was kind of common knowledge that she had a

508
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,719
Speaker 2: difficult ex, right, I assume.

509
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, Monique had been pretty vocal about his alleged emotional

510
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 4: abuse during the brief time that they were married, and

511
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 4: he's you know, he's facing this aggravated murder charge in

512
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 4: connection with the killing of the couple Monique and her

513
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 4: husband again. They were shot to death in their home

514
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 4: in Columbos, Ohio, on December thirtieth. Their two children, ages

515
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 4: four and one, were a few feet away in the

516
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 4: same house, but luckily they were not harmed. And yeah,

517
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 4: Spencer's brother in law Rob tell People magazine that Monique

518
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 4: had been very vocal about the alleged emotional abuse that

519
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 4: he inflicted on them on her during their marriage, which

520
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 4: lasted about two years and ended in twenty seventeen. She

521
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 4: said that she was terrified at this guy until her death.

522
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, and so he's married. This brother in

523
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 4: law is married to Spencer. The husband victim.

524
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 2: His name, had all just spent the holidays pretty much

525
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 2: rock together, like almost like leading up to the murders.

526
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 2: So you know, they were watching movies together. They were

527
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 2: all hanging in at the same house.

528
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 4: Right And he I'm going to quote the brother in

529
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 4: law who's relaying this information. He said he was very

530
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 4: emotionally abusive to her to the point that it changed

531
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 4: her as a person. So I'm kind of wondering how

532
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 4: this la laid out. I know that they interviewed, you know,

533
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 4: friends and family of the victim, Spencer Monique Tepe, right,

534
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 4: and they might have said, look at the ex husband,

535
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 4: and that's how they were able.

536
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 2: To if all the buddies, yeah, like friends, no girlfriends,

537
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 2: I have the best ones, like they can spot it

538
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 2: and listen if they do, right.

539
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 4: So authorities haven't like accused, you know, mickey, the suspect

540
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 4: in this case of emotional abuse are stalking or anything

541
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 4: like that. But I'm very curious to know if that's

542
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 4: going to come out in either testimony or trial or

543
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 4: some kind of PCA you know, probably will cause evidated

544
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 4: that hopefully will get soon with some more of the

545
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 4: details to prove some of that stuff.

546
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, to fill in.

547
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 3: I mean, that is a decade gap almost between the

548
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 3: end of a two year marriage and the fact that

549
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 3: Monique spoke about this to people who are close to her,

550
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 3: Like what kind of presence did her ex husband, now

551
00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 3: alleged murderer of her and her husband still have, if

552
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 3: any or like it will all come to light during trial,

553
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 3: I imagine.

554
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 4: But so the police chief, Elaine Bryant said that this

555
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 4: is a domestic violence related attack too, by the way,

556
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 4: so it all ties back.

557
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, Well, thank you for that update.

558
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 3: And we will continue updating as new information comes out

559
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 3: on this case as well as the Uvaldi trial.

560
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 2: And our very favorite prosecutor, Jared Farantino is back to

561
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 2: answer all of our pressing questions because we have quite

562
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 2: a few for you tonight, Jarrett. I know we held

563
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 2: you hostage last week for like an hour, so we'll

564
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 2: try to be more graceful than that. But we'll get

565
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 2: straight to them because we lasted him. We last you

566
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 2: right last. This is the highlight of my week, all right,

567
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 2: So courte, where should we begin?

568
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 3: Well, there are more allegations coming out against Timothy Busfield,

569
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 3: So yeah, many of us Timothy Busfield. He's an actor, director,

570
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 3: he was on the West Wing for a long time

571
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 3: and in Field of Dreams, and he is facing new

572
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 3: sexual abuse allegations, this time involving a teenager.

573
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 2: So keep in mind, I'm saying new just today, knew

574
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 2: today since his arrest. Now another story has come out

575
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 2: with a seventeen year old girl, that's right.

576
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 3: So this is on top of the child abuse charges

577
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 3: that are pending from a few days ago against him

578
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 3: in New Mexico, where he is alleged to have abused

579
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 3: eleven year old twin boys starting back when they were

580
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 3: as young as seven one of them. So this new

581
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 3: allegation today say that a now adult woman accuses bus

582
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 3: Field of abusing her when she was sixteen during an audition. So, Jared,

583
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 3: how often is it that someone is charged with a

584
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:07,959
Speaker 3: crime and then other similar scenarios with seeming validity behind

585
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 3: them creep out.

586
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 5: It's very common, and particularly common in Hollywood. I mean,

587
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 5: let's look at Harvey Weinstein and Bill cost What happens

588
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 5: is these individuals are surrounded by walls of power, wealth

589
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 5: and credibility, and when a crack emerges, then the more

590
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 5: cracks start to happen, and the walls start to crumble.

591
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 5: And these cases people find their voice. That first voice

592
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 5: is the powerful one, and that breaks the wall, breaks through,

593
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 5: and then the cases go from being a he said,

594
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,719
Speaker 5: she said case to what he said she said, and

595
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 5: she said and she said. And now there's power in numbers.

596
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 5: And that's what typically happens. People are emboldened and encouraged

597
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 5: by others coming forward. It happens in cases that aren't

598
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 5: high profile, but particularly in Hollywood, we have seen it.

599
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 5: And that's what appears to be happening in the case

600
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 5: of Timothy Buzzfield, and you'll see that there is a

601
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 5: pattern or an allegation that he silenced people over the years.

602
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,399
Speaker 5: Undoubtedly you're going to hear about NDAs and arrangements other

603
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 5: than prosecution and therapy, things that powerful people use to

604
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 5: quiet victims.

605
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 2: Which is so lame because again it goes bigger than him.

606
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 2: Who would let that go by for as long as

607
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 2: it did? And you know, again, that's why I guess

608
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 2: we're talking about it. I thought it was pretty like

609
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 2: maybe a good strategy to get in front of it.

610
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,800
Speaker 2: Do the video be so you know, I'm not a liar.

611
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 2: You're going to find out these are lies? Or was

612
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 2: that just performative in your opinion?

613
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 5: Well, he is an actor.

614
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 2: I was going to say he's that, and he's a

615
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 2: pretty good one.

616
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:03,280
Speaker 5: And the thing is, again, I think that the Timothy

617
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 5: Bussfield the world knew before last week has credibility. He's

618
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 5: played a politician and Melissa Gilbert is powerful in Hollywood too.

619
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 5: She's active in the actor active in the Actor's Guild.

620
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,919
Speaker 5: She has a political voice, so does he. So they're

621
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:22,760
Speaker 5: using that to get out in front of the story.

622
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 5: I mean, they'll have crisis management people that's what they do,

623
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 5: and they're well advised to do so. But multitudes of

624
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 5: victims are not good things. And he's being accused by

625
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 5: young men and women too, So these patterns are just

626
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 5: you know.

627
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 4: And this isn't the first time either, right, Like we

628
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 4: talked the other night about how he filed a defamation

629
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,399
Speaker 4: suit against one of the people that accused him of this.

630
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:54,399
Speaker 2: I don't think it went to a case.

631
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 4: I think they settled, they said, and he ended up

632
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 4: suing for defamation and lost. So when you know that

633
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 4: video he made, it made me think of the lawsuit

634
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 4: that he filed, like he has the I don't know

635
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 4: if it's audacity or not, but he had the audacity

636
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 4: to sue the alleged victim in this case that he's

637
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 4: settled with for defamation. It's crazy. It's kind of like

638
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 4: that video. He's got like the audacity, right h but

639
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 4: you know, allegedly the alleged audacity.

640
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 2: And that's I guess today Devil's Advocate is God forbid.

641
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,439
Speaker 2: He didn't do this, right for sure? This is really

642
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 2: hard to come back from. We're watching him check into

643
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 2: prison and his orange outfit. I was like, gosh, you know,

644
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 2: you see him like exhale, like he's going to take

645
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 2: it like a man. I'm like, this is very bad,

646
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,839
Speaker 2: Timothy Bustfield, very very bad. How long do you think

647
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 2: he's going to be in there for?

648
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 5: Well, it depends. Now. If other charges start coming, his

649
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 5: bail conditions are going to be more harsh. He's going

650
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 5: to be sitting there as these cases get addressed, so

651
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 5: his problems appear to be just beginning. At some point

652
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 5: he will be bailed out in all likelihood, but he'll

653
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 5: probably beyond house home confinement because of the nature of

654
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 5: the charges. They're multi state people, they have a lot

655
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 5: of money. He may be on an ankle monitor or

656
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 5: something like that. If he's bailed out, he likely will

657
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 5: be bailed out. But again, with these charges and the

658
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 5: nature of them and the age of these children, maybe

659
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:17,959
Speaker 5: he will be held.

660
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 3: Okay, jar I have something that's been burning in my

661
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:23,800
Speaker 3: mind since this broke, which again.

662
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 2: Feels like a year ago and was days.

663
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 3: It took Timothy Bussfield a couple of days to get

664
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 3: to New Mexico.

665
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,320
Speaker 2: He drove two thousand miles.

666
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 3: As you said in his video, I got my counsel

667
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 3: and I got in my car and we're going to win.

668
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 3: What does that do to Does that make him more

669
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 3: of a flight risk? That it took him a couple

670
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,800
Speaker 3: of days and the US Marshals were involved.

671
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 5: It's not good, you know, resources to why he's driving

672
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 5: two thousand miles. I mean you're Timothy, yes, get on a.

673
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 2: Foot that Can we just stop there for one slight

674
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 2: unpack of that alone. Got to talk about it last night.

675
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 2: We hie the two hundred mile.

676
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 4: Drive and then you said, maybe he thought he was

677
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 4: going to get out and he needed his car.

678
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 2: Remember, yeah, exactly, this is not always the smartest of us.

679
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 5: You did.

680
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 2: It's not stupid at all.

681
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 4: He probably has like a big ego and thought he'd

682
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 4: be able to talk his way out of it or

683
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 4: something may the expression.

684
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 5: If you're explaining, you're losing, Like if he's explaining all

685
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 5: this stuff away and I drew, of course I drove

686
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 5: the two thousand miles. You know what, we're starting to

687
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 5: wonder about you.

688
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,919
Speaker 4: You might have thought that because in this this new

689
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 4: one in the sixteen year old it happened in Sacramento

690
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 4: and at the time, she alleged the incident occurred during

691
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 4: an audition at B Street Theater in Sacramento, California. She

692
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 4: alleges that the actor and director Timothy Busfield kissed her

693
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 4: and put his hands on her okay, and according to

694
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 4: court documents, he allegedly begged the family not to report

695
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 4: it to law enforcement, and he said he would go

696
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,320
Speaker 4: to therapy instead. In the girl's dad, who's also a therapist,

697
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 4: kind of thought, well, this might be a good solution, right,

698
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 4: So he talked his way out of it. As my point,

699
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 4: he talked his way out of it. So maybe he

700
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 4: thought in his head, I'm going to be able to

701
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 4: you know, in his ego, I'm going to be able

702
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 4: to talk my way out of this. Are going to

703
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 4: believe me, Everything's going to be fine. I'm gonna drive home.

704
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 2: This guy is if this.

705
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 5: Is true, how a therapist doesn't recognize the nature of

706
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 5: recidivism of sexual is beyond me, And how therapy is

707
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 5: not necessarily the way to solve the problem and the

708
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,919
Speaker 5: other cure for this no, and the other shocking thing

709
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 5: there is this is a it's a pattern, and it

710
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 5: is an excuse. He got away with it exactly allegedly,

711
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 5: and the pattern continues. It's it's behavior that is not

712
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 5: consequenced and what's going to happen. You're just going to

713
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 5: move on to the next place. How many and we've

714
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:01,760
Speaker 5: seen it.

715
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 2: It becomes a playbook. They're banking, literally banking on your silence.

716
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 2: So makes perfect sense. And if you're a victim, you

717
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 2: think you're the only one that's so humiliating or you

718
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 2: feel lonesome and afraid to tackle that by yourself, and

719
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:21,479
Speaker 2: then you start hearing other voices. So one other sort

720
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 2: of specifically legal question on this.

721
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 3: So these allegations there are many years apart, they're in

722
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 3: different states. So let's pretend right now that the New

723
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,479
Speaker 3: Mexico case, which is the two very young boys, that

724
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 3: that goes to trial. Okay, would this case that we're

725
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 3: talking about, the sixteen year old who was allegedly abused,

726
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 3: would that come into would that be brought up in

727
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 3: court or no?

728
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 2: Good questions?

729
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,919
Speaker 5: So listen, that's a great question. There are times where

730
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 5: prior bad act evidence in the case like this would

731
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 5: be admissible, and you have to recognize a pattern, like

732
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 5: if I'm defending that, I would say, well, this is

733
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 5: a young woman who's much older than these young boys.

734
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 5: This isn't a pattern. This is a markedly different situation,

735
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,720
Speaker 5: I would say, if I'm the prosecutor, whoa wait a minute.

736
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 5: He has a power position over these kids. He's in

737
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 5: the business, he's the producer. They're underage. He promises maybe

738
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 5: work for them in exchange for covering this up. That's

739
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,879
Speaker 5: a pattern. And if you remember Bill Cosby trial, one

740
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:35,760
Speaker 5: the other voices, the other situations, the virtual parade of women.

741
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 5: I was in that courtroom. Didn't testify in the first trial.

742
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 5: Second trial, the judge let them in. He was convicted

743
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 5: first trial. It was a hung jury. So powerful evidence

744
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 5: four or four be evidence. It's called extreme. It's the

745
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 5: best stuff you can get as far as presenting a

746
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 5: case as a prosecutor, showing that this is a pattern

747
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 5: of this individual and it really juries don't like it

748
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 5: looking at a defendant.

749
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 2: So four oh four B is that a blanket?

750
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,240
Speaker 3: Like if I was alleged to have stolen a car

751
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 3: and then three other people said, yeah, she stole my

752
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 3: car too, is that a four to oh four B.

753
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 5: Here's the best example of it. The sticky or the

754
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,879
Speaker 5: wet bandits on home alone, right, they left the water

755
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,720
Speaker 5: running in all those houses. It was a signature crime.

756
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 5: So arguably when they robbed mcallisters. The fact that they

757
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 5: robbed the Murphy house and did the same thing would

758
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 5: come in in those prosecutions. I love that hus you argue,

759
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 5: it's clearly this defendant. You're looking for those patterns. And

760
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 5: if you can look at Busfield and say he gets

761
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,879
Speaker 5: these kids alone, he isolates them from the parents, it's

762
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 5: in the context of acting. These are all I would say, judge,

763
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 5: here's ten similarities and go bang bang bang bang, write

764
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 5: down my list. That's how I've argued for these cases.

765
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 5: I've argued all the way to the Pennsylvania Superior Court.

766
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 5: To get this kind of evidence in. You have to

767
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 5: find those similarities. If you don't have them, they're just

768
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 5: prejudicial evidence. That is double edged sword. It could hurt

769
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 5: your prosecution down the road on an appeal, they could

770
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,879
Speaker 5: say it should have never come in. It wasn't similar enough,

771
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 5: It only prejudiced them. So it is a tightrope you're

772
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:10,359
Speaker 5: walking well.

773
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:15,360
Speaker 4: And it's important to note to this California case is

774
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 4: not a separate charge yet, but it does reference court documents,

775
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,439
Speaker 4: so there was something right.

776
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 5: Well body the other thing is and I'm sure it

777
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:29,240
Speaker 5: may have found its way into a civil court maybe.

778
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 5: But here's the thing. It doesn't even have to be

779
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:35,959
Speaker 5: charged conduct. It's prior bad act evidence. It doesn't even

780
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 5: have to be a criminal charge, a prior conviction, all

781
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 5: of those things. It just shows that this is the

782
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 5: individual that acted this way. Here's the proof, you have

783
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 5: witnesses to support it, and you bring it in Interesting.

784
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 2: Okay, I never knew that. That's so interesting.

785
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 3: I'm struck by how many people now seem to have

786
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 3: known about this. For example, the allegation we're talking about

787
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 3: the sixteen year old girl auditioning. It happened at the

788
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 3: B Street Theater of which Timothy Bussfield was sort of

789
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:13,240
Speaker 3: a founding member I believe, and that theater still operates

790
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 3: and has now put out a statement and said that yes,

791
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:24,839
Speaker 3: we're aware of the report concerning the incident, and that

792
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 3: B Street Theater retained legal counsel at the time to

793
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 3: conduct an internal investigation, and mister Bussfield has not had

794
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 3: any role in the organization since two thousand and one.

795
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 3: They then go on with this other cya information of

796
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 3: you know, he's on our website, but he's not auditioning

797
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:49,439
Speaker 3: young girls. So for twenty five years, at least one

798
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 3: person at B Street Theater knew this happened, they did

799
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 3: an internal investigation, and he has not worked there since.

800
00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 3: So I don't know what point, but I'm just staggered by, well,

801
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,439
Speaker 3: you're saying about how it could be any one of us.

802
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 3: Anybody can just kind of find themselves in these terrible situations, rightmare.

803
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 4: I think I told you guys last night about the

804
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 4: alleged the alleged creepiness that he displayed on set where

805
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 4: the production staff and whatnot was trying to keep him

806
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 4: away from this one specific actress and they you know,

807
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 4: she doesn't allege anything because he was kept away from

808
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 4: her like they So I wonder if there's anything there

809
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,839
Speaker 4: with that that the you know, in New Mexico now

810
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 4: that they could bring in that he had like this pattern,

811
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 4: right you're at like, you know, he had this case

812
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 4: in California, he had this thing on set with that

813
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 4: actress that the production team was like, oh, don't go

814
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 4: near her, like it was like an ongoing situation, reportedly

815
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 4: allegedly allegedly allegedly, but you know, a.

816
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 2: Lot of history. Point, you know, I wonder how much

817
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 2: more of a pattern do we need at this point

818
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 2: from Melissa? I would have his lovely wife. Yeah, we

819
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:06,320
Speaker 2: all the pattern. Yeah, it's a hard pattern to deny

820
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 2: at this point, I would assume.

821
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 4: Well, especially herself, she know what that's I mean, this is.

822
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 5: Not something you know, It's not something you come home

823
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 5: and say, how was your day? Han? No great, I

824
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 5: resolved a civil claim against me where a young girl

825
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 5: accused me of assaulting her on the set and I'm

826
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 5: no longer allowed at the B Street Theater. Like, how

827
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 5: do you get around that at the house? So you know,

828
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 5: as again, the Melissa Gilbert we know and love is

829
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 5: not someone who would condone this right right behind closed doors?

830
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 5: How do you ignore what we're being confronted with now?

831
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 5: And that wall starts to crumble, That's what starts to

832
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:42,319
Speaker 5: happen here.

833
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 3: Well listen, stick around because coming up, Attorney Jared Farantino

834
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 3: is sticking around, and we are so grateful. We have

835
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 3: many more legal questions. We're going to talk Luigi Manngione

836
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 3: and the Long Island serial Killer, that and more true

837
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 3: crime tonight.

838
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 2: We are talking true crime all the time. Welcome back

839
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 2: to true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime

840
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 2: all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here of course, with

841
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and Body Moven. We have Sam and Adam

842
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 2: and Taha in the control room. And tonight our most

843
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:29,439
Speaker 2: favorite prosecutor, Jarrett Farantino, is back with us answering our

844
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 2: burning questions, of which we have many, so we'll get

845
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:34,319
Speaker 2: straight to them. But if you want to ask any

846
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 2: live jump in eight eight eight three one crime, and

847
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 2: if you missed any of the first hour, you can

848
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 2: always catch it right after as a podcast. So Courtney,

849
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 2: you're up.

850
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 3: Okay, we're talking criminal masterminds, Jarreed, So get ready, get ready.

851
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 3: Two cases we've been talking about and that have been

852
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:59,240
Speaker 3: in the news recently involved women who manipulated someone else

853
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:03,280
Speaker 3: to commit murder on their behalf. So back in nineteen

854
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 3: ninety there was Pamela Smart. She worked at a high school.

855
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 3: She got involved in a sexual relationship with a fifteen

856
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 3: year old student, and prosecutors allege and she was convicted

857
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:22,399
Speaker 3: of persuading the student that she was performing statutory rape

858
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,800
Speaker 3: on that she got him and three of his buddies

859
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 3: to kill her husband so she could avoid divorce and

860
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 3: keep her moneyes.

861
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 2: That's one case.

862
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 3: She's behind bars for quite a while, and the boys.

863
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 3: I can't say, man, the boys who killed her husband

864
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 3: were let out much earlier, shorter sentence.

865
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 2: So that's one case, shorter sentence, I'll say, yes, I

866
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 2: mean seven years and then the other sentences what life. Yes,

867
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:01,760
Speaker 2: so pretty grossy difference, pretty wild different. Absolutely.

868
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 3: She also was the only adult in this equation, and

869
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 3: Melas shared about that too.

870
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 2: If that comes, it's a very big part of it.

871
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:09,879
Speaker 2: You're right.

872
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 3: And the other case was Gypsy Rose Blanchard, who we

873
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:21,360
Speaker 3: all remember back in twenty fifteen. She convinced her online

874
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 3: boyfriend Nicholas go to John to kill her mother, Dedie Blanchart,

875
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,760
Speaker 3: and that was to escape the Munchausen by proxy abuse

876
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 3: that Gypsy Rose was experiencing. Now we have specific questions,

877
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 3: but what is your Do you have a general knee

878
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 3: your reaction to those two cases next to each other?

879
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 5: Yes, women are trouble table.

880
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, everybody raise your hand if you're in trouble.

881
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 5: I think, first of all, I think it's a great

882
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 5: comparison and a unique one. I think that those two

883
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:03,319
Speaker 5: looked at and asking those questions, you say, what is

884
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 5: the difference between Gypsy Rose and Pamela Smart. Pamela Smart

885
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 5: was manipulative, she was an adult. She was a predator

886
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 5: of young men. Gypsy Rose was a victim of her mother.

887
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 5: She is a survivor. You know, she's not a manipulator.

888
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 5: So the although they.

889
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 2: Would have been born perfect and then raised in a

890
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 2: very manipulative environment, raised.

891
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 5: With right. So the difference here is that you cannot

892
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 5: look at these cases from ten thousand feet. It's a

893
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:53,280
Speaker 5: case by case analysis. So it does matter the circumstances

894
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 5: surrounding it. You know, no one likes a teacher that

895
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 5: is engaging in sexual acts with these kids. And what

896
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 5: was she She was manipulating them to get them to

897
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 5: do her bidding. Gypsy Rose that the fear would be

898
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:10,320
Speaker 5: a prosecution of her. She would be viewed as a victim,

899
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 5: and the likely outcome would be far different than Pamela Smart.

900
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:18,879
Speaker 5: And although Pamela Smart was not the slayer, you don't

901
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 5: need to pull the trigger to end up doing life

902
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,879
Speaker 5: in prison. The question I would ask, and I think

903
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 5: a lot of prosecutors asked, take Pamela Smart out of

904
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 5: that equation. Is her husband dead? The answer is no,

905
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 5: those boys would not have killed her without and that

906
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 5: and her conduct and her manipulation so she was the

907
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 5: driving force behind that murder, which is why she's doing life,

908
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:45,879
Speaker 5: which is exactly what she should be doing.

909
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 2: Well, that makes different sense, no, because Gipsey was a

910
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 2: minor and a victim of her own mother. Remember did

911
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 2: was doing all these you know, medical treatments on her

912
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 2: and making her be in a wheelchair, and heaven give

913
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 2: your medicine. Without gypsy, her mom would still be alive.

914
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 2: But the same again.

915
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 5: True, But then you do the analysis with gypsy and

916
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 5: say she was not coerced, she was being coarse. She

917
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 5: was just under the weight of her mother. She was.

918
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:20,399
Speaker 2: That's very true victim.

919
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 5: Here, and that's not what Pamela Smart was. So I

920
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 5: think that's the question, who's the driving force behind this

921
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 5: murder and what are the underlying.

922
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 4: Circumstances And just a real quick, very polite correction. She

923
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 4: was twenty three when this happened. She was not a minor, but.

924
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 5: She was a minor when the abuse in her life.

925
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 4: Of course, yeah, from her like basically right, right, But

926
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:46,440
Speaker 4: when this all went down, she was full well and adult.

927
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:51,239
Speaker 3: Yes, So that's a good a the you know the

928
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:54,720
Speaker 3: fact that the details matter is good to be aware

929
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,800
Speaker 3: of and conscious of and then here's my other question,

930
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:01,760
Speaker 3: does every case sort of need a pound of flesh?

931
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 3: And I asked that because Gypsy Rose, I'm probably the

932
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:07,760
Speaker 3: most bleeding heart on the show about her, I feel

933
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 3: like because of how she grew up, I agree with

934
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 3: and with regards to Gypsy Rose in particular.

935
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more that she do have a real

936
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:17,359
Speaker 2: soft spot for her. I'm sort of on the.

937
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 3: Fence, unconscionable what happened to her. However, her boyfriend, Nicholas Godojen,

938
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:28,800
Speaker 3: he was I mean, she did coerce him like he

939
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 3: would not on his own have gone after Dede Blanchert.

940
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 3: And also he has several different mental incapacities, So my

941
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 3: heart honestly bleeds for him too. And that goes back

942
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:48,399
Speaker 3: to my question is does every murder deserve or need

943
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 3: a pound of flesh? Does someone need to do a

944
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 3: lot of time?

945
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:59,399
Speaker 5: Well, again, I think his mental infirmities, his dangerousness, outweighed

946
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 5: any sivil that the injury would have for him. I

947
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 5: think at the end of the day, they saw like, look,

948
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 5: although he had some issues, they weren't the kind that

949
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 5: would have negated his guilt or responsibility in that case.

950
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:15,240
Speaker 5: Not every murder needs Not every murder, it's a great question,

951
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:19,400
Speaker 5: requires a pound of flesh. And sometimes life is crazy.

952
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:22,600
Speaker 5: Someone is legit crazy, and you're not going to prosecute

953
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 5: them criminally. Maybe you'll have them put away. But I

954
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 5: think when you look at his actions in the Gypsy

955
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 5: Rose case, his mental infirmities didn't rise to that level

956
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:34,279
Speaker 5: because it was a big part of the case. They

957
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 5: tried to claim he was manipulated and lacked the intelligence

958
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 5: and had his own difficulties. They didn't carry the day.

959
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 3: Okay, that's beautifully done, Thank you, Maaron. We have been

960
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 3: fating us back forth and sideways. If you're just joining us,

961
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 3: this is true crime. Tonight, Courtney Armstrong, here is always

962
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 3: a Stephanie Elai digger embody move in, and tonight we

963
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 3: have Executor Jarrett Farentino joining us, answering all of our questions,

964
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:09,280
Speaker 3: and we are going to move on to a new case.

965
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 2: That's right.

966
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 4: So this one involves stalking and interstate stalking.

967
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 2: All right.

968
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 4: So the cases that we've been following that you know

969
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:22,320
Speaker 4: have this sort of element are the Luigi Mangione case

970
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 4: in this Ohio case. Okay, so just a quick rundown

971
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 4: both cross state lines. However, federal stocking charges are only

972
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 4: being pressed currently. In one of the cases, federal prosecutors

973
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:40,400
Speaker 4: are alleging that twenty seven year old Luigi Mendione traveled

974
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 4: interstate and tracked United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson before killing

975
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 4: him in Manhattan on December fourth of twenty twenty four.

976
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 4: Now in this year, December thirty, I'm sorry twenty twenty five.

977
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:55,359
Speaker 4: I guess last year, I keep thinking and I need

978
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 4: to get with the times. It's twenty twenty six.

979
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:57,399
Speaker 2: Now.

980
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:01,839
Speaker 4: On December thirtieth of twenty twenty five, Monique Tepe and

981
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 4: her husband Spencer Teppe were found shot to death in

982
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 4: their Columbus, Ohio home, and police have later arrested. By

983
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:11,360
Speaker 4: the way, it was the ATF that arrested him Monique

984
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 4: Tepe's ex husband, David McKee thirty nine and Illinois and

985
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 4: charged him with killings. Okay, Now, there's been evidence that

986
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 4: has come out, well not evidence, reports at a tempt yeah,

987
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:24,319
Speaker 4: that have come out saying that you know, he was

988
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:27,399
Speaker 4: emotionally abusive to her and you know it changed her.

989
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 2: I just went over this in the last segment.

990
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:32,800
Speaker 4: Why are federal stocking charges being charged or pressed against

991
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:34,280
Speaker 4: Luigi and not Michael.

992
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:41,359
Speaker 5: The answer is charge Federal charges could be pursued, could

993
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:43,680
Speaker 5: be They could if they.

994
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,320
Speaker 2: If they find evidence of it, right like, well, yeah.

995
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 5: So the thought is he traveled from Illinois, did carry

996
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 5: a firearm with him, did engage in stalking? I think

997
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:57,319
Speaker 5: it was clear and I did. I can't take full

998
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 5: credit for this assessment, but looking at that surveillance footage

999
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:03,839
Speaker 5: that was revealed, it was clear he knew where those

1000
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 5: cameras were, which would suggest he walked that path before,

1001
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 5: which would suggest he did go there more than once

1002
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 5: and planned it. So that would add to an element

1003
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 5: of stocking. But remember, you don't have the political component

1004
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 5: that the Mangione case had.

1005
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 2: You don't have the and I.

1006
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 5: Think that when the mangi own case, remember remember that

1007
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 5: purp walk. Remember how exactly again, they don't occur in

1008
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 5: a vacuum. The Feds, they're human. They're going to sink

1009
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 5: their teeth into a case that's got cachet and not

1010
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 5: that the tape A case doesn't. But when I look

1011
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:44,800
Speaker 5: at the tape A case, I'm not thinking federal prosecution.

1012
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:46,280
Speaker 5: I'm thinking state murder case.

1013
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,280
Speaker 4: That's a good point. Does the fact that the ATF

1014
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 4: arrested him have any component of federal prosecution?

1015
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 5: They could have been assisting the investigators. So certainly ATF

1016
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 5: is a federal agency alchemy of alcohol to back on firearms,

1017
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 5: but they often assist local police departments. But the other thing, body,

1018
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 5: that's a good point. There was a firearm involved. There

1019
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 5: was clearly interstate which will they bring a charge federally

1020
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 5: against him? It is entirely possible and quite honestly likely.

1021
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:22,960
Speaker 5: It's not that difficult of a case to make at

1022
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 5: this point.

1023
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 2: So this guy just threw his entire life away. This

1024
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 2: is a vascular surgeon, because that real was he getting fired,

1025
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 2: it was where the.

1026
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 4: Works, well something him in Nevada.

1027
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:39,120
Speaker 2: There was a file. Yeah, somebody filed a case against him.

1028
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 4: And I read an article last night after the show

1029
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 4: was over. Of course I was doom scrolling and I

1030
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:46,640
Speaker 4: read an article I don't remember what's from now, and

1031
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 4: it was talking about how he kind of disappeared after

1032
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 4: that case.

1033
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the addresses were not his actual addresses that

1034
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 2: were given. You know, maybe that means he's paranoid and

1035
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 2: living off the grid in some clever way. People do that,

1036
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 2: you know, everybody's out to get them, and so he

1037
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:10,960
Speaker 2: could be that guy, or you know, was he dodging something?

1038
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:16,880
Speaker 4: So the ATF arresting him isn't necessarily an indication of

1039
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 4: federal charges. I totally agree, And you know that's a

1040
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 4: good to know. What evidence do prosecutors need to prove

1041
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:25,920
Speaker 4: that Stocking was present?

1042
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:30,960
Speaker 5: Well, like we talked about that, he engaged in surveilling

1043
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 5: missus Tepe. There, right, he engaged in surveiling doctor Tepe.

1044
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 5: He was conducting interstate travel in furtherance of this crime.

1045
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 5: He took a gun across state line, so you would

1046
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 5: have interstate travel, a firearm used in the killing and

1047
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:54,000
Speaker 5: planning or traveling across state lines and focused on one

1048
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 5: particular victim, for example, the Tepe. So all of those elements,

1049
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 5: you would have a Stocking situation and maybe even a

1050
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:04,800
Speaker 5: premeditated threat along the way. Did they get into a

1051
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 5: text fight or something like that beforehand? And that may

1052
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 5: come out later, but those are the kind of things

1053
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 5: you typically see.

1054
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 3: So Jared earlier you made the distinction between the Luigiman

1055
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:19,040
Speaker 3: ge Owne case being incredibly political, and you mentioned the

1056
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:20,520
Speaker 3: purplek that we all remembered.

1057
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 2: So do cases that are higher profile.

1058
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:28,400
Speaker 3: When you say political, does that put a certain kind

1059
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:32,400
Speaker 3: of pressure on the district attorney? Is it coming from

1060
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:36,320
Speaker 3: the state, Like, what kind of pressure from what kind

1061
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 3: of sides does that put on a case?

1062
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 5: No, prosecutors never feel pressure from the politics of a

1063
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:46,120
Speaker 5: sign Oh, I'm sure profile. I can't admit to that.

1064
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:52,440
Speaker 5: I under you. Okay. So if anybody tells you that

1065
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:55,440
Speaker 5: that that doesn't happen and have an impact, they're lying

1066
01:00:55,520 --> 01:00:59,200
Speaker 5: to you. Okay, it does? Should it probably not, but

1067
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:03,720
Speaker 5: it does. You know, it shouldn't be the only factor,

1068
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 5: and it shouldn't cause you to bring cases, but it

1069
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:12,480
Speaker 5: is a factor. You know, oftentimes the significance of a

1070
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:14,960
Speaker 5: case sends a message to people that would commit this

1071
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 5: crime down the road, and it's just a bigger situation

1072
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 5: that merits bring in charges.

1073
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:24,600
Speaker 4: Okay, So in Ohio they have the death penalty. If

1074
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:28,160
Speaker 4: there wasn't the death penalty, I could see a bonus

1075
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:32,800
Speaker 4: to possibly filing federal charges against Michael McKee farms, aren't you,

1076
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 4: mister McKee? But because Ohio has a death penalty, is

1077
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:41,360
Speaker 4: there any reason that there needs to be federal charges?

1078
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:43,280
Speaker 5: Well? They have.

1079
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:44,280
Speaker 4: Is it just kind of like.

1080
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:51,200
Speaker 5: If death is the only deterrent or issue here. Maybe not,

1081
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:53,920
Speaker 5: but at the same time, we've seen it happen in

1082
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:56,680
Speaker 5: a lot of cases where you'll see federal charges come

1083
01:01:56,960 --> 01:02:00,720
Speaker 5: and state charges come around similar or close to the

1084
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:04,680
Speaker 5: same conduct. It happens. The Feds are a I'm going

1085
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 5: to tell you, the Feds are a tougher, bigger enemy

1086
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 5: from a defendant's perspective. They have more time, more money,

1087
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:15,400
Speaker 5: and more resources. You know, we've seen it in mafia cases.

1088
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:20,320
Speaker 5: We've seen it where the Feds come in statecases simultaneously.

1089
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 5: It happens, So death isn't the only issue they focus on.

1090
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:24,000
Speaker 2: Okay, you look at the.

1091
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 5: Nature of the crime and say, hey, we have something

1092
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 5: to say about this, and that's what happened in Manjion.

1093
01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 4: Wow.

1094
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:32,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly what happened to Manjie.

1095
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:34,280
Speaker 4: And that's the only reason I brought it up, because

1096
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 4: it's like, well, what would be the point He's already

1097
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 4: facing charges in the state. But it's the bigger monster, right. So,

1098
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:43,280
Speaker 4: jareded thank you so much for joining us. We can't

1099
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:45,680
Speaker 4: thank you enough for helping us understand all these major

1100
01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:47,920
Speaker 4: legal developments happening this week. You can find more of

1101
01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:51,160
Speaker 4: Jared on Instagram at Jared Farantino and Preetor's upcoming book.

1102
01:02:51,160 --> 01:02:53,560
Speaker 4: It's called Mothers, Murders and Motivation.

1103
01:02:53,680 --> 01:03:06,160
Speaker 2: Keeper. Here to gran Tonight. Welcome back to True Crime

1104
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:09,640
Speaker 2: Tonight with iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time.

1105
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with Courtney Armstrong, body move in,

1106
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:18,080
Speaker 2: and of course, our most most favorite prosecutor, Jarrett Farantino

1107
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 2: is here answering all of our questions because we have

1108
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:24,040
Speaker 2: kind of only slightly held you hostage. I know you

1109
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:28,800
Speaker 2: wanted to go, but thank you for agreeing to stay. Listen.

1110
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 2: There's burning questions. We want to make sure we get

1111
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 2: to them. So thank you for serving. We really appreciate it.

1112
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:36,040
Speaker 2: Who wants to go?

1113
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:36,360
Speaker 4: Next?

1114
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 2: On the question front, Courtney, Oh I do my hand

1115
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:41,840
Speaker 2: is Rae? Your hand was just raised.

1116
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:46,640
Speaker 3: Yes, So Long Island serial Killer And a hearing that

1117
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:50,640
Speaker 3: happened yesterday, a judge said that the trial of the

1118
01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:56,440
Speaker 3: accused Rex Huerman will begin brace yourselves right after Labor

1119
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:57,520
Speaker 3: Day of this year.

1120
01:03:58,160 --> 01:03:59,080
Speaker 2: So un believable.

1121
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:04,480
Speaker 3: Although they did literally say come hell or high water,

1122
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:11,520
Speaker 3: this trial will begin. So but that that push to

1123
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:15,680
Speaker 3: such a far away date is because Huerman's defense has

1124
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:23,480
Speaker 3: filed extensive motions that challenged the DNA evidence, and there

1125
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:28,800
Speaker 3: are also Fourth Amendment questions that favorite amendment.

1126
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:31,760
Speaker 2: We were just debating this last night. So what a

1127
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:35,520
Speaker 2: perfect working example, right, that's right, great example.

1128
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 3: So just briefly, the the defense argued, and this was

1129
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:45,680
Speaker 3: in one hundred and seventy five page omnibus motion, that

1130
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:50,280
Speaker 3: the DNA and the digital evidence collected from discarded items,

1131
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 3: including the pizza crust that the DNA was found upon

1132
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 3: and the trash violated Huerman's Fourth Amendment rights.

1133
01:04:58,560 --> 01:04:59,520
Speaker 2: Jarrett, what's your take?

1134
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:05,160
Speaker 5: Well, it's a stretch. That is, let's look at it

1135
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:08,840
Speaker 5: two ways. There's two major components of this argument. Number one,

1136
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:14,560
Speaker 5: there is regularly litigated the issue of trash, garbage and

1137
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:19,200
Speaker 5: your right to privacy in garbage. Okay, you put garbage

1138
01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:23,640
Speaker 5: out on the sidewalk, for example, and the municipal trash

1139
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 5: service hauls it away. At some point the Supreme Court says,

1140
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:34,680
Speaker 5: you relinquish your expectation of privacy and accordingly, your Fourth

1141
01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:39,200
Speaker 5: Amendment rights. At that point, you're saying, okay, city, take

1142
01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:41,520
Speaker 5: my trash, take it out of here. It's no longer mine.

1143
01:05:42,880 --> 01:05:46,760
Speaker 5: That's part one of their argument. So you may say,

1144
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:50,160
Speaker 5: this is an issue that's clear, it's nuanced. Where was

1145
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:54,840
Speaker 5: the garbage? Is it really relinquished until the trash haulers

1146
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:57,480
Speaker 5: come and take it away actually and lift it up.

1147
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:01,480
Speaker 5: These are arguments that have been very commonly made. Remember

1148
01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:05,520
Speaker 5: Brian Colberger. They took trash from his neighbors receptacle that

1149
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:10,000
Speaker 5: he put in it. Okay, So that's issue number one.

1150
01:06:10,280 --> 01:06:15,800
Speaker 5: What Hureerman's lawyers are saying is beyond that, he has

1151
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:20,120
Speaker 5: this expectation of privacy in his DNA profile. So they're

1152
01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 5: marrying these two concepts and say, yeah, but from his garbage,

1153
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:30,240
Speaker 5: you're taking samples of his DNA and then detailing this

1154
01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:34,520
Speaker 5: entire profile of him. And that's a problem, and that

1155
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:37,880
Speaker 5: is personal information and he certainly has an expectation of

1156
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:41,160
Speaker 5: privacy within that. That's the argument.

1157
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:43,600
Speaker 2: It's an interesting argument.

1158
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:44,600
Speaker 5: It's not going to win.

1159
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:49,960
Speaker 3: Okay, real quick, and just to bring anyone up to speed,

1160
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:51,920
Speaker 3: I think I got a little bit ahead of myself.

1161
01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:56,200
Speaker 3: Rex Huerman is the man. He's sixty two year old architect.

1162
01:06:56,560 --> 01:07:00,440
Speaker 3: He's from Massapequa Park, New York, and he was arrested

1163
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:03,200
Speaker 3: in July twenty twenty three. Charged with the murders of

1164
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:07,680
Speaker 3: seven women. All of their bodies were found along Long

1165
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:12,240
Speaker 3: Island's Ocean Parkway. The murders allegedly occurred between ninety three

1166
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:15,880
Speaker 3: and twenty ten, and he is known as the Long

1167
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:20,840
Speaker 3: Island serial killer. But back to that argument that you

1168
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:24,040
Speaker 3: were just saying at that the defense would be presenting

1169
01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:28,320
Speaker 3: of the DNA. Isn't that just one step further from

1170
01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:31,040
Speaker 3: If I have a can of coke that I throw

1171
01:07:31,040 --> 01:07:34,640
Speaker 3: in that has my fingerprints and then they print me,

1172
01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:38,200
Speaker 3: can I say, oh my gosh, she shouldn't have fingerprinted

1173
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:40,760
Speaker 3: my coke cane to figure out that I stole the car.

1174
01:07:41,320 --> 01:07:44,560
Speaker 5: That's an excellent example, and it's the same. That's exactly

1175
01:07:44,600 --> 01:07:47,000
Speaker 5: what you would say in response, you do it all

1176
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:49,200
Speaker 5: begins and ends with trash. I would say, look, you

1177
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:51,880
Speaker 5: don't have an expectation of privacy with your garbage or

1178
01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:56,560
Speaker 5: anything you put aside. That's not Luigi Manngioni's backpack, that's

1179
01:07:56,640 --> 01:08:00,280
Speaker 5: not something inside your house. Very different standards. And you're

1180
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:03,960
Speaker 5: talking about the Fourth Amendment here, so interesting argument, and

1181
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:06,040
Speaker 5: you may say to yourself, like, well, why the heck

1182
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:09,200
Speaker 5: are these lawyers even making this argument? If it's clear

1183
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:13,160
Speaker 5: as I said, it's a loser. They're preserving these issues,

1184
01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:15,600
Speaker 5: and that's why the judge is getting mad. He knows

1185
01:08:15,600 --> 01:08:18,519
Speaker 5: he's got to write a huge opinion now in response

1186
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:20,439
Speaker 5: to one hundred and seventy five page job of this,

1187
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:24,320
Speaker 5: and the DA's recognize this isn't a delay tactic. They

1188
01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:26,400
Speaker 5: understand these arguments have to be made.

1189
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:29,120
Speaker 4: This is a really this is an expansion of the

1190
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:33,320
Speaker 4: Fourth Amendment, according to the defense attorney saying that this

1191
01:08:33,400 --> 01:08:35,880
Speaker 4: is an expansion of the Fourth Amendment protections to keep

1192
01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:39,760
Speaker 4: pace with technological advances in DNA analysis. Because remember when

1193
01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:42,000
Speaker 4: we talked to cc Moore, she was a great guest

1194
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:44,920
Speaker 4: on our show. She talked about this case specifically, and

1195
01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:46,479
Speaker 4: that this is the first time in New York that

1196
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:49,919
Speaker 4: it's been allowed in a case. So they're probably filing

1197
01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:54,639
Speaker 4: motion after motion challenging that, you know, evidence being let

1198
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:57,719
Speaker 4: in because they had to build the DNA too.

1199
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:00,840
Speaker 5: And that's what he's saying. Body, that's the way saying.

1200
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:04,760
Speaker 5: In nineteen eighty eight, when the Supreme Court decided one

1201
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:07,559
Speaker 5: of its seminal cases on this issue, DNA of this

1202
01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:11,000
Speaker 5: nature wasn't even contemplated. It doesn't matter the fact of

1203
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:14,320
Speaker 5: the matter is where it starts is in the trash,

1204
01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:18,559
Speaker 5: which you relinquish your expectation of privacy to whatever is

1205
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:22,280
Speaker 5: in that receptacle. That's the argument we as prosecutors would

1206
01:09:22,280 --> 01:09:23,599
Speaker 5: make in response to that.

1207
01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:26,000
Speaker 4: So I'm so glad you brought that up because I'm

1208
01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:27,680
Speaker 4: the Fourth Amendment is one of my things that I

1209
01:09:27,720 --> 01:09:30,479
Speaker 4: absolutely I don't I'm not an expert by any stretch

1210
01:09:30,479 --> 01:09:33,120
Speaker 4: of the imagination. I'm like an idiot. But things that

1211
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:35,760
Speaker 4: correct me if I'm wrong, Jared, because you're the smarty pants.

1212
01:09:36,040 --> 01:09:39,840
Speaker 4: Things that aren't projected by the Fourth Amendment. Trash because

1213
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:44,880
Speaker 4: it's been abandoned, right, Things in public view, not like

1214
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:48,439
Speaker 4: a close container like Luigi's backpack, but things in public view.

1215
01:09:48,840 --> 01:09:51,560
Speaker 2: Like what like a bench? What would be things in

1216
01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:54,519
Speaker 2: public view like bench on my front porch.

1217
01:09:56,120 --> 01:09:58,679
Speaker 4: That's a good question now, because that's on private property

1218
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:00,679
Speaker 4: plan we call.

1219
01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:04,360
Speaker 5: It plane view, really plain view. If you're lawfully where

1220
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:06,559
Speaker 5: you're supposed to be. If you're a law enforcement officer

1221
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:08,880
Speaker 5: and you're standing somewhere and you see and you are

1222
01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:12,000
Speaker 5: imbued with the rights of the law to be where

1223
01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:15,360
Speaker 5: you're at, and you see contraband you see something illegal,

1224
01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:18,720
Speaker 5: I see that's within your plane view, you're not violating

1225
01:10:18,720 --> 01:10:21,960
Speaker 5: someone's right to privacy. So that's an exception. I was here,

1226
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:24,320
Speaker 5: I saw what was I going to do? Planes immediately

1227
01:10:24,320 --> 01:10:25,880
Speaker 5: apparent to be a crime, so.

1228
01:10:25,920 --> 01:10:28,560
Speaker 2: As opposed to in this case in a closed container

1229
01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:31,160
Speaker 2: to your point body. And that's why that's very significant.

1230
01:10:31,160 --> 01:10:32,680
Speaker 2: That's why it signific understood, thank you.

1231
01:10:32,720 --> 01:10:39,639
Speaker 4: So So trash, plane view items items in someone else's possession. Right,

1232
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:43,920
Speaker 4: So if Jared, if you had my backpack, let's say,

1233
01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:46,360
Speaker 4: and it's closed, can that be searched?

1234
01:10:46,439 --> 01:10:46,920
Speaker 2: Is that.

1235
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:50,080
Speaker 5: Usually yes?

1236
01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:52,679
Speaker 4: So, because it's not abandon it.

1237
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:54,880
Speaker 5: To you, surrendered when you give it to someone.

1238
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:57,760
Speaker 4: Correct, Okay. Well and then social media.

1239
01:10:59,080 --> 01:11:03,479
Speaker 5: All right, right, well again, well not not all social

1240
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:07,240
Speaker 5: media some okay, okay, maybe not private messages, that's all.

1241
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:11,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, No plane views social media, right right, So those

1242
01:11:11,360 --> 01:11:14,559
Speaker 4: are things that you don't need a warrant for, no, correct, Okay.

1243
01:11:14,640 --> 01:11:17,240
Speaker 4: Well that's what my understanding was. And generally the Fourth

1244
01:11:17,280 --> 01:11:20,799
Speaker 4: Amendments protection against unreasonable searches does not apply to trash

1245
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:23,600
Speaker 4: once it's been abandoned in a way that gives up

1246
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:27,840
Speaker 4: reasonable expectations as privacy, such as placing it at the curb.

1247
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:32,160
Speaker 4: For collection because courts consider it public properly accessible to anyone,

1248
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:34,560
Speaker 4: including police without a warrant.

1249
01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:38,439
Speaker 5: That's here Rex is pizza crust was where they got

1250
01:11:38,439 --> 01:11:41,879
Speaker 5: his correct right? Correct, medi if I'm wrong. The pizza

1251
01:11:42,040 --> 01:11:45,120
Speaker 5: was at his office in Manhattan. Dump.

1252
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:47,800
Speaker 4: It was in a city I understanding. You know those

1253
01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:51,680
Speaker 4: green like city trash cans. That's where I thought it was.

1254
01:11:52,200 --> 01:11:54,559
Speaker 5: So he saw that picture of the argument, he was

1255
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:58,000
Speaker 5: intending on going back and getting like George Costanza when

1256
01:11:58,000 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 5: he went in and got that.

1257
01:11:59,320 --> 01:12:02,280
Speaker 2: The doughnut, he's a piece of cake to go.

1258
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:04,519
Speaker 5: Back into that. So that's the question I was. I

1259
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:07,960
Speaker 5: would say, mister Hureman, we know you're crazy and capable

1260
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:10,040
Speaker 5: of all these things. Were you going back to finish

1261
01:12:10,080 --> 01:12:13,840
Speaker 5: that crust that you put in the garbage or expectation

1262
01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:14,560
Speaker 5: of privacy?

1263
01:12:15,520 --> 01:12:16,240
Speaker 2: That's a good question.

1264
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:19,799
Speaker 4: But yeah, that that episode of Seinfeld's classic, like George

1265
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:21,479
Speaker 4: eats the piece of cake because it was on the

1266
01:12:21,479 --> 01:12:22,520
Speaker 4: top of the garbage.

1267
01:12:22,680 --> 01:12:22,960
Speaker 5: Nobody.

1268
01:12:24,080 --> 01:12:26,040
Speaker 2: But by the way, the pros and the cons for

1269
01:12:26,160 --> 01:12:29,479
Speaker 2: this particular DNA too, because it's so revolutionary since it

1270
01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:32,439
Speaker 2: had to be built. What's the downside? You know? There

1271
01:12:32,479 --> 01:12:35,360
Speaker 2: seems to be this big conversation that would be had

1272
01:12:35,640 --> 01:12:39,040
Speaker 2: at this trial that's eventually going to happen about the

1273
01:12:39,080 --> 01:12:42,679
Speaker 2: validity of building DNA right.

1274
01:12:43,360 --> 01:12:49,559
Speaker 5: That science has withstood those legal examinations and arguments. Look

1275
01:12:49,600 --> 01:12:52,879
Speaker 5: at Coberger, that was the final nail in his coffin

1276
01:12:53,120 --> 01:12:56,759
Speaker 5: when the DNA was in we talked, he pled. After

1277
01:12:56,800 --> 01:12:59,439
Speaker 5: that he pled. It gives his game over And that

1278
01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:04,160
Speaker 5: was I DNA profile was built from a relative so

1279
01:13:04,479 --> 01:13:07,120
Speaker 5: similar to some of the DNA in this called killer

1280
01:13:07,200 --> 01:13:11,720
Speaker 5: see more studies. And so the law is favorable to

1281
01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:13,880
Speaker 5: the science evolution of DNA.

1282
01:13:14,479 --> 01:13:18,240
Speaker 3: Interesting, did one more very quick follow up before we

1283
01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:19,320
Speaker 3: have a talkback?

1284
01:13:19,439 --> 01:13:23,559
Speaker 2: Actually does so the IgG?

1285
01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:26,599
Speaker 3: Does that need to then be cleared in every of

1286
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:31,479
Speaker 3: the fifty states if it's the first case in each state?

1287
01:13:32,360 --> 01:13:32,720
Speaker 2: Is a case?

1288
01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:33,000
Speaker 7: Yeah?

1289
01:13:33,040 --> 01:13:35,479
Speaker 5: I mean well, if it's a first for example, if

1290
01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:38,200
Speaker 5: it's the case of first impression in Pennsylvania and it

1291
01:13:38,280 --> 01:13:41,040
Speaker 5: was allowed in federal courts or New Jersey, those are

1292
01:13:41,080 --> 01:13:44,479
Speaker 5: the cases you would cite. The key is acquainting the

1293
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:47,880
Speaker 5: judge with enough authority to allow them to make a

1294
01:13:47,920 --> 01:13:50,840
Speaker 5: safe decision on your behalf. Right. So if you're the DA,

1295
01:13:50,880 --> 01:13:53,960
Speaker 5: you're saying it's coming in New Jersey wrestled with the

1296
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:56,759
Speaker 5: same issue. Here's what they said, and here are similar

1297
01:13:56,840 --> 01:13:59,080
Speaker 5: cases we have here in PA that will support it.

1298
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:02,320
Speaker 5: That's how you it's a case of first impression. So yes,

1299
01:14:02,360 --> 01:14:05,000
Speaker 5: at some point every state will wrestle with that issue

1300
01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:08,840
Speaker 5: for the first time, but in all likelihood they're all

1301
01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:12,360
Speaker 5: going to rule the same way. You know, DNA itself

1302
01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:15,160
Speaker 5: was a novel science the first time it came in,

1303
01:14:15,200 --> 01:14:16,960
Speaker 5: but it's admitted in everything.

1304
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:19,320
Speaker 2: Right, thank you for that classification.

1305
01:14:19,479 --> 01:14:23,120
Speaker 8: Yeah, well, good morning to this morning for me, and

1306
01:14:23,160 --> 01:14:27,800
Speaker 8: I'm listening Wednesday morning. You're talking about the Luis vanjeone

1307
01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:32,479
Speaker 8: thing where the process with the search and seizure like

1308
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:34,600
Speaker 8: it or not, there is a process and we have

1309
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:37,639
Speaker 8: like like body says, we have to have the process

1310
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:39,720
Speaker 8: that needs to be respected and observed your own so

1311
01:14:39,760 --> 01:14:43,439
Speaker 8: and nothing will work, it does. It sucks that people

1312
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:46,360
Speaker 8: get off all the time on these quote unquote technicalities,

1313
01:14:46,400 --> 01:14:49,639
Speaker 8: of course, but it is it's needed. Now. The one

1314
01:14:49,680 --> 01:14:52,240
Speaker 8: thing I'm confused on that one, As you said to Judge,

1315
01:14:52,240 --> 01:14:55,800
Speaker 8: it said something to the effect of they would have

1316
01:14:55,840 --> 01:14:58,240
Speaker 8: sounded eventually, So what am I missing?

1317
01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:02,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, it would have been found. So again, searching the backpack,

1318
01:15:02,840 --> 01:15:05,719
Speaker 4: walle it's clothes is an investigatory search that they need

1319
01:15:05,760 --> 01:15:08,759
Speaker 4: a search warrant for that, which they did not have. However,

1320
01:15:09,120 --> 01:15:12,360
Speaker 4: when he was arrested, they probably would have taken the

1321
01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:14,760
Speaker 4: backpack because I'm assuming they knew it was his right.

1322
01:15:15,360 --> 01:15:17,080
Speaker 4: They would have taken the backpack and they would have

1323
01:15:17,120 --> 01:15:20,200
Speaker 4: done an inventory search. They didn't. They don't need a

1324
01:15:20,240 --> 01:15:23,840
Speaker 4: warrant for that because they're basically securing his property for

1325
01:15:23,920 --> 01:15:26,240
Speaker 4: him when he gets released. Okay, it's kind of what

1326
01:15:26,280 --> 01:15:30,559
Speaker 4: they're doing. Blame insterms, but so the judge is basically

1327
01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:34,040
Speaker 4: saying it would have been found anyway. However, the judge

1328
01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:36,080
Speaker 4: went home that weekend and was like, yeah, I probably

1329
01:15:36,080 --> 01:15:38,360
Speaker 4: shouldn't have said that. I probably should think about this

1330
01:15:38,400 --> 01:15:41,960
Speaker 4: because upon appeal, because that's an appealable issue, right Jarrett.

1331
01:15:42,479 --> 01:15:44,439
Speaker 5: Yes, I mean that's definitely an issue that's going to

1332
01:15:44,479 --> 01:15:46,599
Speaker 5: be visited in the appeal courts, no doubt.

1333
01:15:46,800 --> 01:15:49,080
Speaker 2: So the judge went, I think a very real point

1334
01:15:49,080 --> 01:15:51,680
Speaker 2: with this, like I really do see your point now

1335
01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:52,840
Speaker 2: and change my opinion on that.

1336
01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:55,240
Speaker 4: Well, and the thing is too and listen, I do

1337
01:15:55,320 --> 01:15:57,880
Speaker 4: think obviously I think he's guilty. There's no I think

1338
01:15:57,920 --> 01:15:59,160
Speaker 4: there's no question about it.

1339
01:15:59,240 --> 01:15:59,479
Speaker 2: Right.

1340
01:16:00,040 --> 01:16:02,080
Speaker 4: But if it's if the Fourth Amendment is ignored in

1341
01:16:02,080 --> 01:16:04,800
Speaker 4: this case, right, then what other cases is going to

1342
01:16:04,880 --> 01:16:06,519
Speaker 4: be ignored? And is it going to be ignored when

1343
01:16:06,520 --> 01:16:09,639
Speaker 4: you're set up for something, Stephanie, you know want that right, right,

1344
01:16:10,120 --> 01:16:13,240
Speaker 4: So it's it's important to uphold these things. And it's

1345
01:16:13,280 --> 01:16:16,360
Speaker 4: important too so that police know this is the proper

1346
01:16:16,360 --> 01:16:18,840
Speaker 4: procedure because if I don't do it right, oh my gosh,

1347
01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:19,759
Speaker 4: you know, this could happen.

1348
01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:20,040
Speaker 2: Right.

1349
01:16:20,560 --> 01:16:23,360
Speaker 4: No cop wants to be responsible for getting somebody off again.

1350
01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:25,760
Speaker 2: They're in the moment, you know. They want to make

1351
01:16:25,800 --> 01:16:27,040
Speaker 2: sure this is the one moment.

1352
01:16:27,560 --> 01:16:30,040
Speaker 4: This is something that we have heard one though.

1353
01:16:30,160 --> 01:16:33,040
Speaker 5: I have to say, this is one that touches every exception,

1354
01:16:33,120 --> 01:16:35,160
Speaker 5: and the exception we didn't talk about. I agreed it

1355
01:16:35,200 --> 01:16:37,360
Speaker 5: was the exigen circumstances.

1356
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:38,720
Speaker 2: About the bomb.

1357
01:16:38,320 --> 01:16:40,639
Speaker 4: They were afraid, and I don't talk about that, right.

1358
01:16:40,960 --> 01:16:43,680
Speaker 5: This is this one may result in like it's a

1359
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:47,160
Speaker 5: cocktail of every exception. We may get the Mangione exception

1360
01:16:47,200 --> 01:16:49,320
Speaker 5: where it's like, you guys want to check that bag.

1361
01:16:49,479 --> 01:16:52,600
Speaker 5: It's good, right, We'll call it the Mangione exception. We

1362
01:16:52,640 --> 01:16:56,840
Speaker 5: have a little bit of everyone. Yeah, exigency, inventory, inevitable

1363
01:16:56,880 --> 01:17:00,599
Speaker 5: discovery plane view. So it's a mix.

1364
01:17:01,120 --> 01:17:03,200
Speaker 2: That is so true. That is so true.

1365
01:17:03,800 --> 01:17:06,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, it might be there might be something called the

1366
01:17:06,040 --> 01:17:10,320
Speaker 4: Manngioni exception at some point, right, But I do agree

1367
01:17:10,360 --> 01:17:13,599
Speaker 4: there was this exitent circumstances. They had this bomb scare

1368
01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:17,640
Speaker 4: at this in this area in Altoona, Pennsylvania, and the

1369
01:17:17,680 --> 01:17:20,120
Speaker 4: cops you can hear my bodycam saying, well, remember the

1370
01:17:20,560 --> 01:17:22,360
Speaker 4: cop who brought the bomb back to the station, and

1371
01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:23,800
Speaker 4: we better make sure he's clear.

1372
01:17:24,160 --> 01:17:25,519
Speaker 2: And that's when they find all the stuff.

1373
01:17:25,600 --> 01:17:29,280
Speaker 4: Right, And again they would have found it upon their

1374
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:34,000
Speaker 4: inventory search, but they did an investigatory search, okay, based,

1375
01:17:34,280 --> 01:17:36,840
Speaker 4: but it was based on this exitent circumstances. And the

1376
01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:40,080
Speaker 4: judge probably went home that weekend and was like, eh,

1377
01:17:40,080 --> 01:17:41,479
Speaker 4: I probably you know, let.

1378
01:17:41,320 --> 01:17:45,440
Speaker 5: Me just hear him out body. That's called the inevitable

1379
01:17:45,479 --> 01:17:48,720
Speaker 5: discovery rule. Nowice what the judge said. He's right, he

1380
01:17:48,800 --> 01:17:51,080
Speaker 5: thought out loud for a moment and he said, wait

1381
01:17:51,080 --> 01:17:53,320
Speaker 5: a minute, wouldn't they have just taken it as part

1382
01:17:53,320 --> 01:17:54,160
Speaker 5: of his property?

1383
01:17:54,439 --> 01:17:56,639
Speaker 4: And I think that's the point our audience is saying too,

1384
01:17:56,760 --> 01:17:58,360
Speaker 4: like they would have found it anyway.

1385
01:17:58,760 --> 01:18:01,880
Speaker 2: No, it's a great A hundred percent agree. It's a

1386
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:02,679
Speaker 2: great example.

1387
01:18:03,160 --> 01:18:05,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a it's a wonderful point. But again, this

1388
01:18:06,360 --> 01:18:09,720
Speaker 4: could be a reason to appeal and actually win, right,

1389
01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:11,920
Speaker 4: I mean, listen, I know we talk a lot about

1390
01:18:11,920 --> 01:18:14,120
Speaker 4: the First Amendment, the Second Amendment, all that stuff, but

1391
01:18:14,160 --> 01:18:17,120
Speaker 4: the Fourth Amendment is so important. I mean, all of

1392
01:18:17,120 --> 01:18:20,439
Speaker 4: our amendments are important and equally important. The Fourth Amendment

1393
01:18:20,520 --> 01:18:23,800
Speaker 4: in true crime, though, it's a big deal, and I

1394
01:18:23,920 --> 01:18:25,840
Speaker 4: really want people to understand it a lot better. And

1395
01:18:25,880 --> 01:18:27,519
Speaker 4: I hope you do after this conversation.

1396
01:18:28,040 --> 01:18:28,880
Speaker 2: You do, I do.

1397
01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:32,639
Speaker 4: Okay, Well, that's good to know. Well, stick around, Jarrett.

1398
01:18:33,200 --> 01:18:35,320
Speaker 4: Thank you again so much for joining us tonight. We

1399
01:18:35,360 --> 01:18:37,800
Speaker 4: look forward all week to having you here. Anyone who

1400
01:18:37,800 --> 01:18:40,479
Speaker 4: wants more Jarrett can follow him on social media at

1401
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:44,639
Speaker 4: Jarrett Farentino on Instagram, and you can also pre order

1402
01:18:44,680 --> 01:18:49,559
Speaker 4: his upcoming book, So Good Mothers, Murders and Motivation. It's

1403
01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:51,320
Speaker 4: out in the spring of twenty twenty six.

1404
01:18:51,360 --> 01:19:03,960
Speaker 2: Stick around, Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio.

1405
01:19:04,320 --> 01:19:07,840
Speaker 2: We're talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker

1406
01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:11,200
Speaker 2: here with Courtney Armstrong and Body Move in Big Thanks

1407
01:19:11,240 --> 01:19:15,160
Speaker 2: to Jarrett Farantino for giving us all that I legal

1408
01:19:15,439 --> 01:19:18,439
Speaker 2: advice on these big cases. So it's so interesting to

1409
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:21,920
Speaker 2: kind of apply what we're learning or think about it

1410
01:19:21,960 --> 01:19:25,040
Speaker 2: from a different angle sometimes. So again, if you want

1411
01:19:25,080 --> 01:19:29,400
Speaker 2: to jump in eight eight eight three one crime. Yeah,

1412
01:19:29,600 --> 01:19:32,360
Speaker 2: thank you for the talkbacks coming. The questions are super helpful.

1413
01:19:32,560 --> 01:19:33,400
Speaker 2: Let's go to one now.

1414
01:19:34,520 --> 01:19:37,800
Speaker 7: Hi, team Jen from Colorado here to tell you that

1415
01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:39,919
Speaker 7: I am here for the diming painting.

1416
01:19:40,720 --> 01:19:41,479
Speaker 2: It's awesome.

1417
01:19:42,120 --> 01:19:46,200
Speaker 7: And also my heart dropped when I heard about all

1418
01:19:46,280 --> 01:19:49,320
Speaker 7: the chemicals being dropped in a sink for some reason.

1419
01:19:49,840 --> 01:19:52,400
Speaker 7: I'm a house cleaner for a living, and oh my goodness,

1420
01:19:52,479 --> 01:19:53,919
Speaker 7: please use natural cleaners.

1421
01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:55,400
Speaker 2: They work. I love you guys.

1422
01:19:55,680 --> 01:19:58,599
Speaker 4: Buy Oh I think she's talking about the ASMR that

1423
01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:00,960
Speaker 4: I that I mentioned that people watch. I don't watch those,

1424
01:20:01,000 --> 01:20:09,120
Speaker 4: but the clean Yeah. Yes, because when I said that, yes, these.

1425
01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:12,240
Speaker 2: Natural cleaner to get we done a lot to say that.

1426
01:20:12,400 --> 01:20:16,000
Speaker 3: I mean, well, I mean honestly, baking soda, white vinegar

1427
01:20:16,200 --> 01:20:20,720
Speaker 3: and lemon and salt will clean anything you got you

1428
01:20:20,840 --> 01:20:22,520
Speaker 3: make a little paint, Like there's.

1429
01:20:22,360 --> 01:20:26,680
Speaker 2: Those just baking soda just for different usages.

1430
01:20:26,760 --> 01:20:30,000
Speaker 3: If there's a you know, a counter with stuff that's

1431
01:20:30,040 --> 01:20:32,680
Speaker 3: really kind of ingrained in it, like a like a

1432
01:20:32,760 --> 01:20:36,360
Speaker 3: pasta sauce that's leaving a mark. You can make a

1433
01:20:36,400 --> 01:20:38,479
Speaker 3: paste out of baking soda. You rub it in because

1434
01:20:38,479 --> 01:20:42,040
Speaker 3: it's a little bit abrasive, right, You could do that.

1435
01:20:42,280 --> 01:20:46,160
Speaker 3: Lemon is a natural deodorizer. That's why people will sometimes,

1436
01:20:46,240 --> 01:20:51,479
Speaker 3: you know, squeeze it down and then vinegar boards exactly.

1437
01:20:51,560 --> 01:20:56,280
Speaker 2: Like, can I buy something that's like already done that? Yeah?

1438
01:20:56,320 --> 01:20:58,280
Speaker 2: I think so, I just don't know what they are.

1439
01:20:58,720 --> 01:21:01,080
Speaker 4: I'm a better limits and I'm a better living through

1440
01:21:01,160 --> 01:21:05,240
Speaker 4: chemicals person or chemistry. So I don't know any of

1441
01:21:05,240 --> 01:21:07,880
Speaker 4: the natural stuff, but I am interested in learning and

1442
01:21:07,920 --> 01:21:09,680
Speaker 4: being better, you know what I mean.

1443
01:21:09,800 --> 01:21:13,200
Speaker 2: I think it's important. It's important. I agree. Could I

1444
01:21:13,280 --> 01:21:13,920
Speaker 2: tell you something?

1445
01:21:13,920 --> 01:21:17,200
Speaker 3: There's all and I actually I will find this This

1446
01:21:17,320 --> 01:21:23,879
Speaker 3: website that Wade, my husband, uses religiously about chemicals and effects.

1447
01:21:23,880 --> 01:21:26,880
Speaker 3: He worked at a company that was all natural beauty.

1448
01:21:26,920 --> 01:21:30,559
Speaker 3: He was a software engineer, not a makeup expert. But anyway,

1449
01:21:31,560 --> 01:21:36,479
Speaker 3: anything he buys, for example, no scent in anything which

1450
01:21:36,520 --> 01:21:39,719
Speaker 3: makes me love. If I borrow a sweatshirt or Stephanie,

1451
01:21:39,800 --> 01:21:42,080
Speaker 3: I would get hand me down that I loved so.

1452
01:21:42,160 --> 01:21:45,200
Speaker 2: Much I know, and I smell like tie. Yeah, I

1453
01:21:45,240 --> 01:21:49,320
Speaker 2: was an hide user. It smells so delicious to me.

1454
01:21:50,120 --> 01:21:52,599
Speaker 2: And I don't know I'm not allowed to have in

1455
01:21:52,640 --> 01:21:55,519
Speaker 2: my house. Yeah, I think I'm not behind you, but

1456
01:21:55,640 --> 01:21:59,400
Speaker 2: I do know that that's very bad. It regulates. I

1457
01:21:59,400 --> 01:22:02,479
Speaker 2: don't know. Boy, do I love the smell of it too?

1458
01:22:03,200 --> 01:22:03,360
Speaker 3: Yes?

1459
01:22:03,600 --> 01:22:04,519
Speaker 2: Sorry, guilty of that.

1460
01:22:04,680 --> 01:22:07,479
Speaker 6: I love that's the fresh, clean smell. So but I

1461
01:22:07,520 --> 01:22:10,200
Speaker 6: will I have to start getting into the more natural

1462
01:22:10,240 --> 01:22:14,040
Speaker 6: products and using those. But we'll all start. We'll all

1463
01:22:14,080 --> 01:22:15,800
Speaker 6: start doing that to make the world a better place.

1464
01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:18,200
Speaker 6: But I know what else makes a world a better place.

1465
01:22:20,240 --> 01:22:25,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, hey, y'all, I am finally watching Death and Apartment six,

1466
01:22:25,960 --> 01:22:29,280
Speaker 9: those three what happened to Ellen Greenberg? And my heart

1467
01:22:29,320 --> 01:22:32,880
Speaker 9: is just breaking for her parents. And I'm wondering if

1468
01:22:32,920 --> 01:22:36,679
Speaker 9: you are the amazing Joseph can tell us if there's

1469
01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:40,240
Speaker 9: a go fun of Me or a Venmo or something

1470
01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:45,840
Speaker 9: where we can help this family financially continue to fight

1471
01:22:45,920 --> 01:22:48,719
Speaker 9: for their sweet, beautiful, amazing daughter.

1472
01:22:50,640 --> 01:22:55,120
Speaker 6: Fun And there is I did a little digging, and

1473
01:22:55,160 --> 01:23:00,040
Speaker 6: there is a GoFundMe. It's titled Justice for Ellen, and

1474
01:23:00,160 --> 01:23:03,040
Speaker 6: it was created by friends of the Greenberg family to

1475
01:23:03,439 --> 01:23:08,639
Speaker 6: support the legal efforts and advocacy of Ellen Greenberg. And again,

1476
01:23:08,680 --> 01:23:12,080
Speaker 6: if people don't know, Ellen Greenberg had a controversial death

1477
01:23:12,080 --> 01:23:16,360
Speaker 6: that was ruled a suicide despite many wounds and questions

1478
01:23:16,360 --> 01:23:20,400
Speaker 6: surrounding the case. Wasn't there also some concusion with the

1479
01:23:20,680 --> 01:23:23,559
Speaker 6: entry with that one too. We've been talking a lot about, right,

1480
01:23:23,800 --> 01:23:25,599
Speaker 6: the entry with the Teppee case.

1481
01:23:26,080 --> 01:23:29,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, the door, the hinge or the door lock was

1482
01:23:31,160 --> 01:23:34,320
Speaker 4: locked from the inside, so you know, and it was

1483
01:23:34,360 --> 01:23:36,960
Speaker 4: broken upon, you know, the police and whatnot, or the

1484
01:23:37,000 --> 01:23:41,320
Speaker 4: apartment manager. I can't remember now breaking in. But there

1485
01:23:41,360 --> 01:23:45,040
Speaker 4: is a new there's new news in Ellen Greenberg. I

1486
01:23:45,080 --> 01:23:46,400
Speaker 4: don't know if you guys heard about this or not,

1487
01:23:46,479 --> 01:23:49,559
Speaker 4: but you know, this has been a really long road

1488
01:23:49,640 --> 01:23:52,439
Speaker 4: for her family. And now the US Attorney's Office for

1489
01:23:52,479 --> 01:23:56,240
Speaker 4: the Eastern District of Pennsylvania is interested in this case.

1490
01:23:56,320 --> 01:23:58,360
Speaker 4: And this is just according to sources. They haven't made

1491
01:23:58,360 --> 01:24:02,600
Speaker 4: an official announcement, but the federal government did request documents

1492
01:24:02,640 --> 01:24:06,200
Speaker 4: and information from the Philadelphia Police Department and other agencies

1493
01:24:06,280 --> 01:24:09,920
Speaker 4: last month. Sources are telling different news outlets in the

1494
01:24:09,960 --> 01:24:14,320
Speaker 4: Pennsylvania area. In Philadelphia's to be specific, it's totally unclear

1495
01:24:14,400 --> 01:24:17,880
Speaker 4: right now how the federal government became involved and if

1496
01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:20,320
Speaker 4: and when it will release any details about its interests.

1497
01:24:20,360 --> 01:24:23,920
Speaker 4: But they are taking an interest. So there's movement. It's

1498
01:24:24,040 --> 01:24:27,880
Speaker 4: not a big movement, but there is movement, and that

1499
01:24:27,960 --> 01:24:30,640
Speaker 4: is hopeful. And I hope, I hope they take a

1500
01:24:30,640 --> 01:24:31,120
Speaker 4: look at it.

1501
01:24:31,320 --> 01:24:31,880
Speaker 2: I hope they do.

1502
01:24:33,200 --> 01:24:35,800
Speaker 4: Maybe there's maybe a thrush so much they really have

1503
01:24:35,920 --> 01:24:39,360
Speaker 4: and maybe fresh eyes, right, maybe fresh eyes will and

1504
01:24:39,439 --> 01:24:42,200
Speaker 4: you know, and not just fresh eyes, but somebody not

1505
01:24:42,360 --> 01:24:47,920
Speaker 4: connected to the office, right, it's you know, correct, somebody independent.

1506
01:24:49,520 --> 01:24:51,839
Speaker 2: We're just going to relook at it or just examine

1507
01:24:51,840 --> 01:24:54,920
Speaker 2: it with some fresh eyes, given time and maybe given

1508
01:24:54,960 --> 01:24:57,680
Speaker 2: some technology and a little of context.

1509
01:24:58,000 --> 01:24:59,920
Speaker 4: Right, So we'll see what happens.

1510
01:25:00,080 --> 01:25:00,240
Speaker 5: You know.

1511
01:25:00,840 --> 01:25:03,519
Speaker 4: Again, this is just you know, according to sources. We

1512
01:25:03,560 --> 01:25:06,960
Speaker 4: don't have any you know, hard hardened facts, but it

1513
01:25:07,000 --> 01:25:11,679
Speaker 4: is widely being reported in several mass media outlets.

1514
01:25:11,720 --> 01:25:13,760
Speaker 2: So I would say that documentary would have had a

1515
01:25:13,800 --> 01:25:16,280
Speaker 2: big piece of that. I bet you did. It was

1516
01:25:16,439 --> 01:25:17,479
Speaker 2: very moving, It.

1517
01:25:17,400 --> 01:25:19,160
Speaker 4: Was very it was very well done too.

1518
01:25:19,160 --> 01:25:21,400
Speaker 6: It was an excellent Yeah, that was a really it was.

1519
01:25:21,400 --> 01:25:22,200
Speaker 2: Really good mentory.

1520
01:25:22,479 --> 01:25:25,680
Speaker 4: So we'll see what happens. Ellen's parents, along with her

1521
01:25:25,680 --> 01:25:29,679
Speaker 4: team of attorneys have long insisted, right for a long time,

1522
01:25:29,680 --> 01:25:32,519
Speaker 4: that the evidence shows that she was murdered. So you know,

1523
01:25:32,600 --> 01:25:35,360
Speaker 4: if the d you know, the the DJ or whatever

1524
01:25:35,439 --> 01:25:38,320
Speaker 4: gets involved in the US District attorneys, well maybe they'll

1525
01:25:38,400 --> 01:25:39,040
Speaker 4: uncover something.

1526
01:25:39,600 --> 01:25:39,840
Speaker 2: Wow.

1527
01:25:40,080 --> 01:25:42,000
Speaker 4: So we'll have to see. We'll keep you posted on

1528
01:25:42,000 --> 01:25:43,280
Speaker 4: that one.

1529
01:25:43,680 --> 01:25:45,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. So let's there with that.

1530
01:25:46,320 --> 01:25:49,200
Speaker 6: Else we will Yeah, we might have time for one more.

1531
01:25:49,439 --> 01:25:51,320
Speaker 2: Okay, Hey, it's the case for you.

1532
01:25:51,400 --> 01:25:54,599
Speaker 10: I'd like you look into. A girl's name is Sarah Rice.

1533
01:25:55,040 --> 01:25:58,200
Speaker 10: She's thirty nine years old in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. She and

1534
01:25:58,280 --> 01:26:00,800
Speaker 10: her too, they could have been husband and wife, but

1535
01:26:00,840 --> 01:26:03,799
Speaker 10: they were only together for twenty years, so they weren't married,

1536
01:26:04,120 --> 01:26:07,200
Speaker 10: had children together, were found in the basement, and both

1537
01:26:07,200 --> 01:26:08,360
Speaker 10: of them had shots.

1538
01:26:08,800 --> 01:26:09,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1539
01:26:10,040 --> 01:26:12,720
Speaker 4: I know a little bit about this one, only it

1540
01:26:12,840 --> 01:26:16,320
Speaker 4: just it just happened. It's pretty recent, like really the

1541
01:26:16,360 --> 01:26:19,479
Speaker 4: beginning of January. Yeah, correct, but it was it's a

1542
01:26:19,560 --> 01:26:24,400
Speaker 4: murder suicide because so a kid came when their kid,

1543
01:26:24,520 --> 01:26:29,040
Speaker 4: their child came home at about ten fifteen, went in

1544
01:26:29,040 --> 01:26:32,559
Speaker 4: the house and then went back outside to get an

1545
01:26:32,560 --> 01:26:35,400
Speaker 4: adult who called nine one one, because you know, the

1546
01:26:35,479 --> 01:26:39,839
Speaker 4: kid's parents were dead in the basement. Sarah ries, Yeah,

1547
01:26:39,960 --> 01:26:44,920
Speaker 4: they were shot. They were pronounced dead un scene. Greg

1548
01:26:45,320 --> 01:26:50,000
Speaker 4: the boyfriend was alive and transported to the hospital, but

1549
01:26:50,080 --> 01:26:55,000
Speaker 4: he later died. Both died from gunshot wounds to the head.

1550
01:26:56,120 --> 01:27:00,000
Speaker 4: The incident was being investigated as a possible murder suicide.

1551
01:27:00,040 --> 01:27:05,639
Speaker 4: Last I looked the official manner of death. I think

1552
01:27:05,680 --> 01:27:08,160
Speaker 4: it's I don't think it's been released. I don't think

1553
01:27:08,200 --> 01:27:13,400
Speaker 4: it's I don't think that they've determined if it's been Okay, Okay, Yeah,

1554
01:27:13,600 --> 01:27:16,040
Speaker 4: like I said, just happened, and I followed it loosely.

1555
01:27:16,120 --> 01:27:19,880
Speaker 4: But they were together a long time. They had I

1556
01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:21,280
Speaker 4: think two or three kids.

1557
01:27:21,479 --> 01:27:25,800
Speaker 3: Three children. They were eight, four and two years old.

1558
01:27:25,960 --> 01:27:30,120
Speaker 3: It's terrible of their deaths were that, Stephanie. This just

1559
01:27:30,160 --> 01:27:32,240
Speaker 3: happened on January, in the beginning of January.

1560
01:27:32,360 --> 01:27:35,800
Speaker 2: January Fish. Why would they do that to their kids?

1561
01:27:36,160 --> 01:27:38,880
Speaker 4: Well, that's the that's the question, right, they don't know,

1562
01:27:40,240 --> 01:27:43,639
Speaker 4: but I mean they initially if they're even looking at

1563
01:27:43,680 --> 01:27:45,920
Speaker 4: it as like a suicide, I would imagine that somebody

1564
01:27:45,920 --> 01:27:48,400
Speaker 4: had a weapon. But it could have been it could

1565
01:27:48,400 --> 01:27:51,120
Speaker 4: have been like just because there's a weapon on the scene,

1566
01:27:51,280 --> 01:27:54,400
Speaker 4: it could have been that they were, you know, defending themselves. Maybe,

1567
01:27:54,640 --> 01:27:59,519
Speaker 4: right right, so we'll see I do. But we are

1568
01:27:59,640 --> 01:28:01,680
Speaker 4: we are, we do know about it. We have been

1569
01:28:01,720 --> 01:28:05,559
Speaker 4: following it. We haven't really covered it because of the

1570
01:28:05,560 --> 01:28:11,840
Speaker 4: suicide angle, right, Yeah, but you know, definitely something that's

1571
01:28:11,920 --> 01:28:13,760
Speaker 4: definitely on our radar, like one hundred percent.

1572
01:28:14,400 --> 01:28:18,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Every morning I send emails to It's funny.

1573
01:28:18,400 --> 01:28:21,200
Speaker 4: I wakes up in the morning and I make my coffee,

1574
01:28:21,240 --> 01:28:23,719
Speaker 4: I sit down at my computer, I have my vabe,

1575
01:28:24,080 --> 01:28:25,600
Speaker 4: I'm ready to go. I'm getting ready for you know.

1576
01:28:26,240 --> 01:28:28,880
Speaker 4: I have my little makeup mirror and I want I

1577
01:28:29,400 --> 01:28:31,280
Speaker 4: go through all the true crime news and I send

1578
01:28:31,320 --> 01:28:34,639
Speaker 4: like what like seven or eight different emails to Eva

1579
01:28:34,680 --> 01:28:41,320
Speaker 4: and Taha. And I'm pretty manic about it because I

1580
01:28:41,360 --> 01:28:43,439
Speaker 4: don't just send one email at a time. I'm like, oh,

1581
01:28:43,439 --> 01:28:46,080
Speaker 4: this one's interesting.

1582
01:28:46,640 --> 01:28:47,920
Speaker 2: It's a great way.

1583
01:28:48,400 --> 01:28:51,519
Speaker 6: Our process is interesting for people listening and the you know,

1584
01:28:51,600 --> 01:28:55,200
Speaker 6: everyone as curious as what happens behind house, the sausage made.

1585
01:28:55,240 --> 01:28:58,799
Speaker 6: But each person, each host winds up sending us different

1586
01:28:58,800 --> 01:29:01,720
Speaker 6: stories that they're really sit in in the morning. Then

1587
01:29:01,720 --> 01:29:04,320
Speaker 6: we unpack those ava and lays them out in a

1588
01:29:04,680 --> 01:29:08,679
Speaker 6: really clear and understandable way, and we dig and sources

1589
01:29:08,680 --> 01:29:10,960
Speaker 6: and do as much research as possible to find out

1590
01:29:10,960 --> 01:29:13,479
Speaker 6: details and put it all together by the afternoon. But

1591
01:29:14,280 --> 01:29:17,479
Speaker 6: the three of you always have such interesting and your

1592
01:29:17,520 --> 01:29:20,240
Speaker 6: pulses are You're also everything in true crime.

1593
01:29:20,479 --> 01:29:23,720
Speaker 4: We're also different. I mean we're three different individuals and

1594
01:29:23,760 --> 01:29:25,559
Speaker 4: we're interested in different things.

1595
01:29:25,720 --> 01:29:25,960
Speaker 2: Right.

1596
01:29:26,200 --> 01:29:28,880
Speaker 4: That's like like something that you know, I'm interested in

1597
01:29:28,920 --> 01:29:31,040
Speaker 4: stuff is like, oh, come on, get over it.

1598
01:29:31,040 --> 01:29:34,760
Speaker 2: You know, not that she does, but we have it.

1599
01:29:35,479 --> 01:29:38,559
Speaker 2: We are learned, but we learn like we do each other.

1600
01:29:38,680 --> 01:29:45,080
Speaker 4: Like the absolutely. Yes, I was never interested in the

1601
01:29:45,080 --> 01:29:47,920
Speaker 4: Epsteine thing. And it's not because I don't think they're victory.

1602
01:29:47,960 --> 01:29:49,960
Speaker 4: I mean, obviously there's victims or what not, but it's

1603
01:29:50,000 --> 01:29:52,679
Speaker 4: just not my like sex and sex crimes have never

1604
01:29:52,720 --> 01:29:56,280
Speaker 4: been my you know, hold my attention. It kind of

1605
01:29:56,600 --> 01:29:58,720
Speaker 4: is too much for me a little bit, you know.

1606
01:29:59,400 --> 01:30:01,639
Speaker 4: But you know, coming on the show and talking about

1607
01:30:01,640 --> 01:30:03,640
Speaker 4: it so much, I have become interested in that. So

1608
01:30:03,640 --> 01:30:06,360
Speaker 4: I'm so grateful for that. Yeah, because I you know,

1609
01:30:06,400 --> 01:30:07,360
Speaker 4: I never would have done that.

1610
01:30:07,360 --> 01:30:10,680
Speaker 6: Before transhuman like that, there are other areas that you

1611
01:30:10,720 --> 01:30:13,280
Speaker 6: were fascinated by that wove you into it even more.

1612
01:30:13,560 --> 01:30:15,720
Speaker 4: Okay, we're gonna do a little cooking of the sausage

1613
01:30:15,760 --> 01:30:16,280
Speaker 4: on air.

1614
01:30:16,479 --> 01:30:16,960
Speaker 2: Is that okay?

1615
01:30:17,280 --> 01:30:20,560
Speaker 4: Yes, I want to start talking about Peter Teele.

1616
01:30:21,280 --> 01:30:25,360
Speaker 6: Oh yes, yes, on the calendar.

1617
01:30:25,720 --> 01:30:26,759
Speaker 2: Is it okay?

1618
01:30:26,800 --> 01:30:27,879
Speaker 6: Great, it's on the calendar.

1619
01:30:28,000 --> 01:30:32,200
Speaker 4: Because all that transhumanism and whatnot, the eugenics and the

1620
01:30:32,200 --> 01:30:35,439
Speaker 4: the cryogenics and whatnot. It's fascinating to me in like

1621
01:30:35,520 --> 01:30:38,800
Speaker 4: the grossest way. And and and the thing about it

1622
01:30:38,800 --> 01:30:40,799
Speaker 4: that I like is I still get to talk about Epstein,

1623
01:30:41,200 --> 01:30:42,799
Speaker 4: but I don't have to talk about the sexual abuse.

1624
01:30:43,160 --> 01:30:45,320
Speaker 2: No. But also like, this is a case that you

1625
01:30:45,400 --> 01:30:48,200
Speaker 2: know that I'm so passionate about, and then you opened

1626
01:30:48,240 --> 01:30:52,080
Speaker 2: this other rabbit hole and in my head where I'm like, wait,

1627
01:30:52,160 --> 01:30:55,280
Speaker 2: I don't know it from that angle, and it's so interesting,

1628
01:30:55,439 --> 01:30:59,280
Speaker 2: And now it's interesting. It's yeah, you're your your brain

1629
01:30:59,640 --> 01:31:02,599
Speaker 2: on cases comes from a different angle. And that's what's

1630
01:31:02,600 --> 01:31:03,599
Speaker 2: so exciting about it.

1631
01:31:03,800 --> 01:31:05,479
Speaker 4: Well, that's why we work well together because we all

1632
01:31:05,560 --> 01:31:11,439
Speaker 4: have different passions, right, different it.

1633
01:31:11,479 --> 01:31:14,200
Speaker 6: Goes all with different interests. But it's almost like the

1634
01:31:14,240 --> 01:31:17,920
Speaker 6: perfect gumbo. All these different ingredients make a wonderful at

1635
01:31:17,960 --> 01:31:20,559
Speaker 6: the end. So it's I'm telling you, I love the mixture.

1636
01:31:20,880 --> 01:31:24,480
Speaker 4: I'm calling us Charlie's Angels. We got the wet the

1637
01:31:25,160 --> 01:31:27,400
Speaker 4: We're all very different, we all bring different things to

1638
01:31:27,479 --> 01:31:27,880
Speaker 4: the table.

1639
01:31:28,600 --> 01:31:35,240
Speaker 3: A wig Okay everyone, I know this is an audio format.

1640
01:31:35,360 --> 01:31:37,280
Speaker 3: But at the top of the show, and I maintain

1641
01:31:37,920 --> 01:31:40,800
Speaker 3: I told Stephanie, I said, take a picture of yourself.

1642
01:31:40,840 --> 01:31:43,519
Speaker 3: Our hair is just in a casual throw it up,

1643
01:31:43,560 --> 01:31:52,240
Speaker 3: but it's it's giving bridge at Bardeaux with fringe, yea,

1644
01:31:52,520 --> 01:31:53,120
Speaker 3: the whole thing.

1645
01:31:53,720 --> 01:31:54,879
Speaker 4: It's a very French connection.

1646
01:31:55,320 --> 01:31:55,439
Speaker 2: Right.

1647
01:31:55,520 --> 01:32:00,280
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm sure she's in you know, regular pains, but

1648
01:32:00,320 --> 01:32:03,559
Speaker 3: I picture a bikini bottom underneath that, like we're seeing

1649
01:32:03,600 --> 01:32:06,759
Speaker 3: this she striped French looking top.

1650
01:32:06,960 --> 01:32:11,400
Speaker 2: But yeah, and what my friends say, I look like

1651
01:32:11,680 --> 01:32:16,840
Speaker 2: versus what the reality is because your friends are so

1652
01:32:16,920 --> 01:32:23,040
Speaker 2: much you guys just described but I love you just

1653
01:32:23,200 --> 01:32:30,040
Speaker 2: the truth. So yeah, it's mix. It's great coming at

1654
01:32:30,080 --> 01:32:32,559
Speaker 2: things from different angles and yeah, yeah, you guys are

1655
01:32:32,600 --> 01:32:34,360
Speaker 2: so good at it so well, and like what can

1656
01:32:34,400 --> 01:32:34,720
Speaker 2: I can?

1657
01:32:34,760 --> 01:32:36,400
Speaker 4: I keep going with the epscene.

1658
01:32:36,920 --> 01:32:38,000
Speaker 2: But the epscene thing.

1659
01:32:38,040 --> 01:32:41,200
Speaker 4: The reason I find that interesting stuff is because I

1660
01:32:41,240 --> 01:32:43,320
Speaker 4: don't have to talk about the sex abuse, which triggers

1661
01:32:43,360 --> 01:32:44,280
Speaker 4: me in some weird way.

1662
01:32:44,439 --> 01:32:44,639
Speaker 2: Right.

1663
01:32:45,160 --> 01:32:48,880
Speaker 4: And number two, I kind of it can tie into

1664
01:32:48,880 --> 01:32:51,280
Speaker 4: the sexual abuse because he was like wanting to plant

1665
01:32:51,360 --> 01:32:52,719
Speaker 4: himself into all these.

1666
01:32:52,560 --> 01:32:55,920
Speaker 2: Different one thousand percent and you're creating a line.

1667
01:32:55,960 --> 01:32:59,920
Speaker 4: So it's like tangenically, it's you know, it's related percent.

1668
01:33:00,439 --> 01:33:01,679
Speaker 4: So I like that stuff.

1669
01:33:01,720 --> 01:33:04,880
Speaker 2: So I want to talk about Peter Deel in his relationship.

1670
01:33:05,720 --> 01:33:07,000
Speaker 6: I'm dying to go into that one.

1671
01:33:07,120 --> 01:33:08,280
Speaker 5: That's a really good one.

1672
01:33:08,560 --> 01:33:08,760
Speaker 2: You know.

1673
01:33:08,760 --> 01:33:10,920
Speaker 6: Another case that was back in the past that I

1674
01:33:10,960 --> 01:33:13,200
Speaker 6: don't think you were completely into, but then you really

1675
01:33:13,240 --> 01:33:15,920
Speaker 6: got into it was p Diddy. At the beginning, I

1676
01:33:16,000 --> 01:33:17,920
Speaker 6: kind of felt like you were like, eh, and it's

1677
01:33:17,920 --> 01:33:18,719
Speaker 6: still not okay.

1678
01:33:18,880 --> 01:33:21,320
Speaker 2: Well there's more to come out with the Diddy stuff.

1679
01:33:21,360 --> 01:33:23,519
Speaker 2: So I'm curious. You know, that's another thing that we'll

1680
01:33:23,560 --> 01:33:27,400
Speaker 2: be watching closely, Like did the impact of this documentary

1681
01:33:27,520 --> 01:33:30,280
Speaker 2: have any impact now? If so, what is.

1682
01:33:30,240 --> 01:33:34,280
Speaker 4: That the documentary was fascinating? I will say, you're well,

1683
01:33:34,560 --> 01:33:36,800
Speaker 4: so you're right, taha. I did come around to that,

1684
01:33:36,840 --> 01:33:39,240
Speaker 4: You're right, yeah, And its detanely really convinced me too

1685
01:33:39,280 --> 01:33:42,680
Speaker 4: that you know, you know so well, you're just like not.

1686
01:33:42,680 --> 01:33:46,400
Speaker 2: That, I'm like, but it's just happening around us.

1687
01:33:46,439 --> 01:33:49,160
Speaker 4: So it just seems it's so much. That's all that's

1688
01:33:49,200 --> 01:33:51,760
Speaker 4: happening now, is all the sexual abuse? What is going on.

1689
01:33:52,080 --> 01:33:54,520
Speaker 2: I don't know, so we don't know how to sugarcoat

1690
01:33:54,520 --> 01:33:54,840
Speaker 2: it either.

1691
01:33:54,960 --> 01:33:57,599
Speaker 4: So if you have a direction for us, I think

1692
01:33:57,680 --> 01:34:00,800
Speaker 4: it's always been happening, but I think the victims are

1693
01:34:00,840 --> 01:34:05,000
Speaker 4: getting courage from seeing the justice happen.

1694
01:34:05,320 --> 01:34:06,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, the US is changing.

1695
01:34:07,120 --> 01:34:10,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, like like like Jared said, the brick or the

1696
01:34:10,479 --> 01:34:11,160
Speaker 4: tear in the wall.

1697
01:34:11,200 --> 01:34:16,479
Speaker 2: But it's starting. Yeah, because it has a convasive social

1698
01:34:16,520 --> 01:34:18,000
Speaker 2: media makes it spread more.

1699
01:34:18,160 --> 01:34:20,280
Speaker 6: Like we're hearing about things that we would not have

1700
01:34:20,880 --> 01:34:22,120
Speaker 6: right fifteen years ago.

1701
01:34:22,280 --> 01:34:23,960
Speaker 2: So that's so true.

1702
01:34:24,800 --> 01:34:27,200
Speaker 4: Twenty four hour news cycle, godn't.

1703
01:34:28,479 --> 01:34:30,599
Speaker 2: By the way, we'll be following some of these also

1704
01:34:30,760 --> 01:34:33,800
Speaker 2: tomorrow as well, so make sure you come back join us.

1705
01:34:34,240 --> 01:34:37,160
Speaker 2: This is true crime tonight. We're talking true crime all

1706
01:34:37,200 --> 01:34:37,559
Speaker 2: the time.