Speaker 1: Did the US government just guarantee to keep bitcoin legal? Well,
Speaker 1: one of the main things I hear from people that
Speaker 1: don't believe in bitcoin is that the government's just going
Speaker 1: to make it illegal. But things that just happen might
Speaker 1: actually tell you the opposites, which is why I am
Speaker 1: about to have on Dennis Porter. Dennis Porter is the
Speaker 1: co founder and chairman of Satoshi Action Fund. It's a
Speaker 1: nonprofit educational organization dedicated to informing policy makers and regulators
Speaker 1: in DC and around the country about bitcoin, about bitcoin mining,
Speaker 1: the benefits, how it can be used as a tool
Speaker 1: to support other public policy goals, and so much more.
Speaker 1: If you want to know what's going on with politics
Speaker 1: and what bills just got passed and potentially President Biden
Speaker 1: might try to veto overturn, then you want to hear
Speaker 1: this conversation. This is going to be an enlightening conversation
Speaker 1: with someone who is in the trenches working with policy
Speaker 1: makers lawmakers every day. Let's go ahead, just jump right
Speaker 1: into the interview with Dennis Porter. All Right, Dennis Porter
Speaker 1: the CEO and co founder of the Satoshi Action Fund,
Speaker 1: President and founder of Satoshi Action Education for Bitcoin advocacy.
Speaker 1: Dennis is regularly testifying in support of bitcoin and digital
Speaker 1: asset policy, developing.
Speaker 2: Really key, innovative.
Speaker 1: First of its kind of policy across the United States,
Speaker 1: advancing bitcoin, bitcoin mining, and the right to own digital assets.
Speaker 2: Dennis, thanks so much for joining me today.
Speaker 3: Market's an honored to be back on the show with
Speaker 3: you and excited to chat about all things bitcoin and
Speaker 3: digital assets.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Man, it's been a while and there has been a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff going on, so I'm super excited to
Speaker 1: catch up.
Speaker 2: But the first question, let's just dive right into this. Dennis.
Speaker 1: You know, one of the biggest things that I've heard
Speaker 1: for the last whatever it is now seven eight years
Speaker 1: I've been talking about bitcoin is like almost like the
Speaker 1: single biggest thing is like the government's gonna make it illegal.
Speaker 1: And so the first question I want to ask is
Speaker 1: did it just become legalized?
Speaker 3: I mean, that's probably a very good way to categorize
Speaker 3: what is taking place in Washington, DC. Even myself, I'm
Speaker 3: a little surprised by the amount of momentum that is
Speaker 3: picked up here for what we should call rightfully called
Speaker 3: digital asset policy in the United States. Although I care
Speaker 3: predominantly about bitcoin, it is good to see digital asset
Speaker 3: policy that will lift all boats. You know, rising tide
Speaker 3: lifts all boats in a space. We're very fortunate to
Speaker 3: see the progress we have now. That being said, right like,
Speaker 3: we still have a lot of a lot of room
Speaker 3: to go, so to speak, with regards to passing this
Speaker 3: legislation into law. I mean, there's some major hurdles that
Speaker 3: we got to overcome. I'm sure we can get into it.
Speaker 3: But it's a very exciting time in the world of
Speaker 3: bitcoin and digital asset policy, and I'm looking forward to
Speaker 3: seeing the United States create these necessary regulatory guidelines we
Speaker 3: need in order to really benefit from this technology.
Speaker 1: You said a lot there that I'm ready to unpack into.
Speaker 1: So first of all, do we need these regulations to
Speaker 1: give us clear guidelines. We're going to come back to that.
Speaker 2: But let's stop. Let's just stop or start with.
Speaker 1: Did bitcoin just become legalized? So to the point that
Speaker 1: you made, there's still a lot that has to be done.
Speaker 1: So we had bills that just got passed by the House.
Speaker 1: They still have to get through the Senate, I believe,
Speaker 1: so that's probably a lot of the work show us
Speaker 1: to be done. There's another bill that has gotten overturned
Speaker 1: and now potentially the president could veto this. So I
Speaker 1: want to kind of dig into a little bit of
Speaker 1: the nuance. So I guess let's just start with at
Speaker 1: the top. In your opinion, you've been doing this now
Speaker 1: for a couple of years. You're deep in the belly
Speaker 1: of the beast. Let's just call it that. In the
Speaker 1: politics world, it seems like this has become very bipartisan.
Speaker 1: The sides are opposite of each other, although these latest
Speaker 1: bills seem to be I'm sorry, bipartisan. This latest bill
Speaker 1: seems like everyone's kind of together, but there's some stuff
Speaker 1: that seems more partisan where they're fighting. And so let's
Speaker 1: just frame it up from a top level. So, you know,
Speaker 1: at the Bitcoin conference last year, almost a year ago
Speaker 1: right now, we saw presidential candidates, Vivid Gramaswami RFK, even
Speaker 1: Tulsi Gabbard not a candidate but kind of a front
Speaker 1: running political figure, all coming out in support of bitcoin
Speaker 1: and digital assets.
Speaker 2: Just maybe a week ago or so, Donald.
Speaker 1: Trump sort of came out in support of digital assets
Speaker 1: and crypt currencies and bitcoin, even accepting donations, and it
Speaker 1: sort of maybe puts the opposition the Biden administration on
Speaker 1: the opposite side of this, So.
Speaker 2: Let me frame this up.
Speaker 1: Tell me if I'm wrong, But it seems like the
Speaker 1: Biden administration Elizabeth Warren, Gary Ginsler has been very, very
Speaker 1: very against cryptocurrency, is very harsh on them. But the
Speaker 1: tide seems to be turning. And now does Biden have
Speaker 1: to do you think he has to take the opposite
Speaker 1: side of Trump because they're competing, or do you think
Speaker 1: Biden's going to be the Biden admin will be forced
Speaker 1: to sort of capitulate and just realize that they're going
Speaker 1: to lose voting base if they do that.
Speaker 4: That's an absolutely great question.
Speaker 3: As someone who's been fighting for a long time to
Speaker 3: make sure that Democrats and progressives also see the value
Speaker 3: of bitcoin and digital assets, I couldn't you know more,
Speaker 3: disagree that, like the Biden administration needs to take this
Speaker 3: opposite stance, although that is just very stereotypically what we
Speaker 3: do see in politics, So I wouldn't be surprised if
Speaker 3: it does happen. But I'm really excited about this opportunity
Speaker 3: for both sides of the aisle to be fighting for
Speaker 3: the bitcoin vote. I see it very much like the
Speaker 3: same way as like, you know, who's best on the economy. Right,
Speaker 3: it's not going to be like like, oh, I'm pro bitcoin,
Speaker 3: your anti bitcoin. It is who's better on bitcoin? And
Speaker 3: we're moving towards that world. We're not quite there yet,
Speaker 3: So we could see the Biden administration take some missteps
Speaker 3: on this issue. But predominantly I really see it as
Speaker 3: as an Elizabeth Warren Gibby being given a mandate through
Speaker 3: the elections. This is actually like a well known DC
Speaker 3: secret that during the election process, when Biden was trying
Speaker 3: to win that's what trying to win the office of
Speaker 3: the presidency, he cut a deal with Elizabeth Warren to
Speaker 3: let her to like manage him in this banking and.
Speaker 4: Digital asset stuff. And obviously it's been very, very bad
Speaker 4: for the administration.
Speaker 3: So you know, we could see a pivot. There's to
Speaker 3: a lot of people talking about that there could be
Speaker 3: a pivot. And the reason why is because at the
Speaker 3: end of the day, everybody's going to be pro bitcoin
Speaker 3: and it's only a matter of time, and so both
Speaker 3: Democrats and Republicans are fighting to be.
Speaker 4: Number one on the issue.
Speaker 1: All right, I want to take a break just real
Speaker 1: quick and say that you know, as we're talking about
Speaker 1: bitcoin and digital assets, The question really comes down to, like,
Speaker 1: are you tired of the global elites robbing you blind
Speaker 1: through all this money printing that's happening, And if so,
Speaker 1: then you need to be holding your wealth outside of that,
Speaker 1: and more importantly, you should be coming to the Bitcoin
Speaker 1: Conference in Nashville. The twenty twenty four conference is happening
Speaker 1: in July twenty fifth through twenty seventh. It's the largest bitcoin,
Speaker 1: the largest fintech conference in the world. I've been going
Speaker 1: every single year. It's an amazing event, and Bitcoin twenty
Speaker 1: twenty four really stands as a beacon of monetary freedom
Speaker 1: if you care about that. If you care about freedom,
Speaker 1: all freedom sits at the freedom to transact, and really
Speaker 1: the darkening macroeconomic backdrop that's happening needs the bitcoin more
Speaker 1: than ever.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: There's going to be top speakers there, companies, thought leaders
Speaker 1: from across the industry. They're all going to be in
Speaker 1: Nashville looking ahead for the future.
Speaker 2: And I'm going to be there.
Speaker 1: Lots of other people, my friends are going to be there,
Speaker 1: and ticket prices keep going up, so the longer you wait,
Speaker 1: the more you're going to pay. But I don't want
Speaker 1: that to happen to you. I'd love for you to
Speaker 1: come hang out, meet me, hang out with me and
Speaker 1: all the other speakers there. And you can save ten
Speaker 1: percent on your ticket by using code mark Moss at
Speaker 1: check out. So get your tickets now. Like I said,
Speaker 1: the price is just keep going up. Use Mark Moss
Speaker 1: at check out to save ten percent on your tickets
Speaker 1: and hit me up let me know if you're coming.
Speaker 1: So I want to meet you. And also, while we're
Speaker 1: talking about bitcoin, we're talking about laws being changed to
Speaker 1: basically guarantee your rights of self custody. The whole piece
Speaker 1: about bitcoin that's so revolutionary is that we can custody
Speaker 1: our own digital asset, and so you should certainly do that.
Speaker 1: But how I've been using this device, it's called a
Speaker 1: Treasure hardware wallet. I've been using it for about seven
Speaker 1: eight years now. It's been my go to device. Basically,
Speaker 1: it's a little hardware device like this that hold your
Speaker 1: private key and you plug it into your computer when
Speaker 1: you want to send a transaction. I like Treasure because
Speaker 1: it's open source. Unlike some of the security flaws you've
Speaker 1: seen in other devices. I don't want to name them
Speaker 1: right now, but it's open source, so you know, that
Speaker 1: it's safe, it's the easiest to use, which we'll have
Speaker 1: used it forever. They have new devices that make it
Speaker 1: much easier than ever before. There's no excuse for you
Speaker 1: not to secure your own bitcoin with the Treasure hardware
Speaker 1: wallet or something else like that. And more importantly, when
Speaker 1: you're holding your Treasure hardware wallet or any hardware wallet
Speaker 1: for that matter, you need to back up your private keys. Now,
Speaker 1: you want to make sure that you back up your
Speaker 1: private keys and put them somewhere they don't get destroyed.
Speaker 1: And they've come up with this new device where I
Speaker 1: can put my private key on this metal device that
Speaker 1: could withstand flat fire, flood or war, whatever it may be.
Speaker 1: So check out Treasure what they're doing. You can save
Speaker 1: ten percent on these things by using codemark moss. But
Speaker 1: either way, make sure you secure.
Speaker 2: Your own bitcoin.
Speaker 1: I like how you frame that, how we should just
Speaker 1: argue who's better on it, as opposed to trying to
Speaker 1: take opposite sides of that. I just I you know,
Speaker 1: there's the never trumpers, and no matter what he wants,
Speaker 1: he wants to secure the border, they don't want to
Speaker 1: secure them. It's like, unfortunately we're in this bipolar world.
Speaker 1: Where we have to, but hopefully, hopefully you're right on that.
Speaker 1: I find it odd that in the land of the free,
Speaker 1: in the United States, any politician could run on a
Speaker 1: platform to take away our freedom of choice.
Speaker 2: I just find it hard. How could somebody run on
Speaker 2: that platform? And it amazes me.
Speaker 1: So I want to dig deeper into that. Let's start
Speaker 1: on some of these specifics here. So a big news
Speaker 1: for you and the Satoshia Action Fund was what happened
Speaker 1: in Oklahoma. So Oklahoma took the I believe. I want
Speaker 1: you to break this down for me, but it appears
Speaker 1: that Oklahoma basically sort of put the rights in two
Speaker 1: man to make sure that the Oklahoma citizens, I guess
Speaker 1: at least have the right to have bitcoin, own it, custody,
Speaker 1: et cetera.
Speaker 3: Is that what happened.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that is what happens.
Speaker 3: For those that might be new to the work that
Speaker 3: we do at Satoshi Action, we are a bitcoin digital
Speaker 3: asset advocacy organization. We work to pass pro bitcoin bills
Speaker 3: into law. After we go through the education process with lawmakers,
Speaker 3: we help them understand the value of the technology, and
Speaker 3: then we move and say, hey, now that you like
Speaker 3: bitcoin as much as we do, here's some ideas for
Speaker 3: how you can attract this new technology to your jurisdiction.
Speaker 3: Last year we passed our two bills into law in
Speaker 3: Montana and Arkansas called the Right to Mind Bill.
Speaker 4: And this year we.
Speaker 3: Took decided to say, hey, we got a couple of
Speaker 3: on the board. Bitcoin is about to go on and run.
Speaker 3: The sentiment is changing dramatically, and we should really take
Speaker 3: advantage of that and try to expand the scope of
Speaker 3: the policy. So now not only are we protecting bitcoin
Speaker 3: mining with our legislation, we are also protecting the right
Speaker 3: to self custody, the right to run a node, and
Speaker 3: the right to buy, sell, and trade.
Speaker 4: And use digital assets broadly.
Speaker 3: And so the first state in the country to actually
Speaker 3: enact that bill into law is Oklahoma. It did it
Speaker 3: just a little over a week ago, so very excited
Speaker 3: about that news.
Speaker 4: But there are other states as well that are right behind.
Speaker 3: We have Louisiana passing it in the House and the
Speaker 3: Senate and we're just waiting for it to go to
Speaker 3: the governor's desk now, so very very exciting things happening.
Speaker 4: By the way, it's a.
Speaker 3: Little bit of breaking news too, because that hasn't been
Speaker 3: that hasn't been widely reported, so excited to share that
Speaker 3: with your audience here today. But yes, the right to
Speaker 3: self custody and use bitcoin is now protected in Oklahoma,
Speaker 3: and real quickly because people oftentimes they say, well, why
Speaker 3: do why should we care about state law when you
Speaker 3: have the federal law going on? Is in federal law
Speaker 3: sort of the ultimate sort of power in the USA,
Speaker 3: And to some extent.
Speaker 4: That is true.
Speaker 3: But the most important thing to keep in mind is
Speaker 3: that when you have a lack of federal action, state
Speaker 3: law reigns supreme. But let's say, even for instance, the
Speaker 3: federal law decides to come in and say, well, we're
Speaker 3: going to ban self custody, if the state of Oklahoma
Speaker 3: protects self custody, then it's on the otus is on
Speaker 3: the federal government to come in and enforce that policy.
Speaker 3: And just throughout history we have seen the federal government
Speaker 3: is unwilling to enforce granular types of individual policies like
Speaker 3: that where they'd have to come and knock on everybody's doors.
Speaker 3: The really clear line example of this is the cannabis industry.
Speaker 3: The cannabis industry is legalized in about seventy five percent
Speaker 3: of the country, we do not see the federal government
Speaker 3: coming and knocking on doors and taking out every individual
Speaker 3: user and cannabis industry business participant.
Speaker 4: They just aren't doing it. And so we're following that.
Speaker 3: Same strategy, and so far it has worked for the
Speaker 3: cannabis industry, and we believe that it will work.
Speaker 4: For us as well.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really good example, a good analogy.
Speaker 1: So the way that I see this bill and I
Speaker 1: like it, and going back to I said, we'll come
Speaker 1: back to do we need the government to give us
Speaker 1: laws to give us clarity on this. And so you know,
Speaker 1: I'm under the again, being an American, I'm under the
Speaker 1: belief that we are free and we're free to do
Speaker 1: whatever we want unless there's laws that tell us we
Speaker 1: can't do those things. And so the Constitution is really
Speaker 1: a set of laws that prohibits the government from taking
Speaker 1: away our freedoms, encroaching our freedoms. And so rather than saying, hey,
Speaker 1: please give us a law that tells us what we
Speaker 1: can do with our digital assets as a slave mindset,
Speaker 1: instead we pass laws that prevent the government from encroaching.
Speaker 1: And that seems sort of what this Oklahoma bill is.
Speaker 1: It's like Hey, we're putting a law into place that
Speaker 1: guarantees your right to keep these freedoms and doesn't allow
Speaker 1: the government to encroach it. Is that a way to
Speaker 1: sort of look at this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean absolutely, the work that we do, I
Speaker 3: oftentimes tell people, you know, if you like the Constitution,
Speaker 3: then you should like the bill that we passed in
Speaker 3: a law in Oklahom. You should like the bills that
Speaker 3: we passed in a law in Montana, in Arkansas, and
Speaker 3: you should love the bills that we're going to pass
Speaker 3: in the law in Louisiana and others coming up here
Speaker 3: in the future. But at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: like let's go to the heart of that question, like
Speaker 3: why do we need regulations? Ultimately in the United States,
Speaker 3: given the current dynamic that we're in, it is really
Speaker 3: important to have clear rules of the road so that
Speaker 3: people can know how to operate. I mean, think about it,
Speaker 3: like quite literally, like the road right when we're all
Speaker 3: driving around. If there was no speed limits, you'd have
Speaker 3: just this like very wide range of different driving habits,
Speaker 3: and that would be make driving on the road much
Speaker 3: more difficult. And although it does, you know, in some
Speaker 3: ways slightly restrict our freedoms to create regulations. What the
Speaker 3: most important part for people to keep in mind is
Speaker 3: it creates a super highway for good behavior, a super
Speaker 3: highway for people to know, Okay, this is what I
Speaker 3: can do, and I know that I can do it,
Speaker 3: and I'm not going to mess with me, and I
Speaker 3: can go as fast as I possibly can, and I
Speaker 3: can you know, move fast and break things, so to speak.
Speaker 3: Similar to the tech and right when we create regulatory
Speaker 3: guidelance for the tech industry, we've seen a super highway
Speaker 3: of good behavior. And obviously, of course we're trying to
Speaker 3: limit that bad behavior, and we're trying to do it
Speaker 3: in a way where we don't limit to the e
Speaker 3: step that actually crushes innovation or crushes freedom. Obviously, on
Speaker 3: the edges you're going to see a little bit of that.
Speaker 3: But the most important part to keep in mind is
Speaker 3: that it really does create this mega highway for people
Speaker 3: to be able to go and pursue certain businesses that
Speaker 3: they know for sure are going to last and be
Speaker 3: here to stay for good in the United States.
Speaker 1: Great, let's dig into a couple of specifics, because it's
Speaker 1: been a busy week. There's a lot of stuff going
Speaker 1: on So the first thing I want to talk about.
Speaker 1: My opening question was did bitcoin just become legalized? Obviously
Speaker 1: in Oklahoma you've already kind of covered that piece, but
Speaker 1: there's a fit twenty one, right, And so this just
Speaker 1: went through the House past. It hasn't gone through the
Speaker 1: Senate yet, but it seems like this big watershed moment,
Speaker 1: if you will, congressional validation for the crypto industry, digital
Speaker 1: asset industry, if you will. And it seemed pretty by partisan.
Speaker 1: It was like two seventy nine to one, thirty six
Speaker 1: Democrats and Republicans together. Some say the odds in the
Speaker 1: Senate remain low. Before I get into the details of that,
Speaker 1: I mean, what's the word on the street, is the
Speaker 1: odds of getting through the Senate low?
Speaker 2: And if so, why, yeah?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I mean you'd sort of need to keep your
Speaker 3: I think, perspectives and your expectations in check with regards
Speaker 3: to this.
Speaker 4: Thing going through the Senate. I think your right to
Speaker 4: do that.
Speaker 3: First of all, there's just there's no companion bill in
Speaker 3: the Senate. Typically, what you will see if you have
Speaker 3: a really really good effort going is you will see
Speaker 3: a companion bill where there's a matching bill on the
Speaker 3: opposite side and the other chamber. So if it's the House,
Speaker 3: you have a companion bill in the Senate. If it's
Speaker 3: going through the Senate, you have a companion bill in
Speaker 3: the House. There is no companion bill right now. And
Speaker 3: also there's just really no constraints on when the Senate
Speaker 3: has to act, So the Senate could just sit around
Speaker 3: and there's no there's no forcing mechanism to make them
Speaker 3: actually take this bill and run it through their side.
Speaker 3: And also, one really key thing to keep in mind
Speaker 3: here is that you have the Lumbas and Jillibrand effort
Speaker 3: right on the Senate side, and they have been working diligently.
Speaker 3: I mean Senator Lummas has been putting in a significant
Speaker 3: portion of her time. She's the ultimate bitcoin champion in Washington, DC.
Speaker 3: And you know, typically when you've spent that much time
Speaker 3: on a policy, you're not just going to be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: let's go with the other guy's policy, like you're going
Speaker 3: to want some piece of the action. You're going to
Speaker 3: want to feel like your work was included. And that's
Speaker 3: Fit twenty one unfortunately, does not encompass all of the parts.
Speaker 4: I think that Senator Lummas.
Speaker 3: Would really want included in her bill. But but sticking
Speaker 3: to the sticking to the odds here, you know, it's
Speaker 3: not a it's a non zero chance, right like it's
Speaker 3: it's not zero, but it's not also probably fifty percent
Speaker 3: or higher that it's going to get through. And then again,
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, you also have to be,
Speaker 3: you know, considered that President Biden is in opposition to
Speaker 3: this legislation. He did not announce that he was going
Speaker 3: to veto it, but he did say that he would
Speaker 3: be opposed to the legislation.
Speaker 1: So some of the key points that I like, and
Speaker 1: going back to did bitcoin get legalized? I mean, obviously
Speaker 1: we talked about Oklahoma, but in this specifically, I put
Speaker 1: out a pretty long tweet thread on this the other
Speaker 1: day because I, along with a lot of other people,
Speaker 1: seem to think that the probably the most likely attack
Speaker 1: vector on bitcoin will be self custody, and of course
Speaker 1: this is what Oklahoma law entrines that right to do that.
Speaker 1: But in this bill specifically, there was a protection of
Speaker 1: self custody and so basically protecting the rights of individuals
Speaker 1: to use hardware, software, wallet, stora, digital assets, things like that,
Speaker 1: and so that was sort of the like, Man, if
Speaker 1: this goes through, it's basically legalizing bitcoin. The one thing
Speaker 1: that it just seems insane if most people don't really
Speaker 1: understand the way the world works. But because we're in
Speaker 1: a debt based monetary system, everything in this world is debt,
Speaker 1: and they've basically taken away our rights to own anything.
Speaker 1: So things that you think you own legally technically you don't.
Speaker 1: So like the money in your bank, you don't own
Speaker 1: that money in the bank. It's owed to you. The
Speaker 1: money's owed to you. That's why the bank tells what
Speaker 1: you can do. The stocks that you own, your Apple, Tesla, etc.
Speaker 1: You don't own those. Those are owed to you by
Speaker 1: your broker. We used to have stock certificates, there were
Speaker 1: bear instruments. No longer it's owed to you now, and
Speaker 1: bitcoin is sort of this last bear instrument that we have,
Speaker 1: and it seems like they don't want us to own
Speaker 1: that either. They want us to have that ode to
Speaker 1: us through some debt obligation. This would ensrine our rights
Speaker 1: to do that. But I guess maybe that's why there's
Speaker 1: opposition to this. I don't know what are your thoughts
Speaker 1: or what are you hearing.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's a fantastic way to think about it,
Speaker 3: that we live in this society and in a world
Speaker 3: where everything is given to a custodian for them to
Speaker 3: hold on our behalf.
Speaker 4: And I mean, we have very good custodial services here
Speaker 4: in the United States. I won't complain.
Speaker 3: I mean, if you go to other parts of the world,
Speaker 3: there's just you know, there are parts of the world
Speaker 3: where if you put your money into a bank account,
Speaker 3: that money will get immediately taken out by the government.
Speaker 3: So we are very fortunate to have good custodians here.
Speaker 3: But at the end of the day, you're right, we
Speaker 3: as Americans, we the people, should have the right to
Speaker 3: hold our own assets and to be able to control
Speaker 3: our own destinies. And that's why we put self custody
Speaker 3: protections into the Oklahoma bill. That's why I love to
Speaker 3: see that these self custody protections are also similar in
Speaker 3: their effort to protect self custody in this fit twenty
Speaker 3: one bill. And that's going to be big moving forward,
Speaker 3: because that is, as you said, a big, big, big
Speaker 3: attack vector potentially on bitcoin, because if you can't hold bitcoin,
Speaker 3: if you can't truly engage with the technology, then you
Speaker 3: are sort of cut off from being able to benefit
Speaker 3: from the greatest opportunities that bitcoin has to offer with
Speaker 3: regards to enhancing our freedom and our economic mobility. So yes,
Speaker 3: absolutely couldn't agree with you more that. I'm probably most
Speaker 3: excited about this part. I mean, because ultimately, like the
Speaker 3: whole digital asted ecosystem is super pumped, like, oh, we're
Speaker 3: going to have these great guidelines for what can the
Speaker 3: SEC do, what can the cf They're going to create
Speaker 3: this really big ninety day deadline where the SEC has
Speaker 3: to respond to say that it's a security or not,
Speaker 3: and that if it's not, it goes to the CFTC
Speaker 3: instead of just like making these people wait forever an
Speaker 3: eternity and doing regulation through enforcement. So that's big. But
Speaker 3: like I'm a bitcoinner, I don't really like everyone's pretty
Speaker 3: clear that bitcoin is a commodity, it's going to go
Speaker 3: to the CFTC regardless of the lack of regulation on
Speaker 3: the issue currently. I just don't feel concerned about my
Speaker 3: bitcoin at this point. But things like self custody protections. Absolutely,
Speaker 3: that's a huge one, and and I'm glad that not
Speaker 3: only did you highlight it on your Twitter, I was
Speaker 3: a great breakdown that you gave gave there, but they
Speaker 3: we're highlighting it here.
Speaker 1: As well now on the other side. So this is
Speaker 1: just stuff that the House is doing, but we don't
Speaker 1: know if the Senate's going to do it. There's no
Speaker 1: companion bill to your point, and there's no deadline for
Speaker 1: the Senate to move. But the Senate is doing something
Speaker 1: on the other side. So in a resolution one oh nine,
Speaker 1: the Senate's passed legislation to overturn a previous SEC accounting
Speaker 1: rule SAB number one twenty one one, which basically prevents
Speaker 1: regulated financial firm from custody in bitcoin. So it's still
Speaker 1: sort of this custody piece and that was put in
Speaker 1: place that said, hey, they can't custody it, and that's
Speaker 1: like this big battleground. The Senate voted sort of bipartisan
Speaker 1: to overturn that, which seems pretty positive again in favor
Speaker 1: of custody, this time not self custody but by a
Speaker 1: custodian a bank. This one seems to be a lot
Speaker 1: of people think that the President might want to veto this.
Speaker 1: What are you hearing on the street on that?
Speaker 3: I mean, he said it himself, right, He commented, that
Speaker 3: he would veto the staff accounting bulletin on twenty one.
Speaker 4: For whatever reason.
Speaker 3: And I think actually that was a very big mistake
Speaker 3: on his part because you know, ultimately the digital asset
Speaker 3: ecosystem is looking for these wins. They have not had
Speaker 3: any wins in DC, and all of a sudden you
Speaker 3: see some movement finally for the digital acid ecosystem in Washington,
Speaker 3: d C. I mean, I have a lot of friends
Speaker 3: that have been working there. I tell them, you're doing
Speaker 3: the Lord's work right, because it's just like nothing is
Speaker 3: going through in Washington DC, And all of a sudden
Speaker 3: we see this movement and it's a lot of excitement.
Speaker 3: It's there are much bigger things that we need to
Speaker 3: do in Washington DC with regards to this issue. But
Speaker 3: but the fact that there was something that moved forward
Speaker 3: was so valuable to the people that work there. And
Speaker 3: I'm telling you, man, I got friends that are just like,
Speaker 3: what's the point of life in Washington TC. We're not
Speaker 3: doing anything? And they were looking at the down the
Speaker 3: barrel of you know, November twenty twenty four thinking, I mean,
Speaker 3: we're about to go into election mode and not see
Speaker 3: anything happen until the end of the year and then
Speaker 3: new Congress has to come in. We got to restart
Speaker 3: all these efforts. So for them to get this, this
Speaker 3: this win, which from a regular perspective is small, but
Speaker 3: from a from a momentum and from a from a
Speaker 3: from an opportunity perspective, was huge for them to really
Speaker 3: start to get wins on the board for all their efforts,
Speaker 3: and for like the Biden administration to come in like
Speaker 3: snatch what is It's not a big, like huge, massive,
Speaker 3: like world changing victory, but it was a victory and.
Speaker 4: It was historical.
Speaker 3: So for them to try to say we're going to
Speaker 3: come in and snatch this victory from you, even this
Speaker 3: tiny little wind, we won't let you have really mobilized
Speaker 3: those in the crypto space and the bitcoin space, and
Speaker 3: I think that's why you're seeing the Trump administration capitalize
Speaker 3: really on this issue and say we're going to start
Speaker 3: making sure that we take care of this industry. I
Speaker 3: don't know if he would have so strongly come out
Speaker 3: in support of the space if it wasn't for that
Speaker 3: move by the Biden administration, because it opened up a
Speaker 3: door for the Trump administration to say, you know what,
Speaker 3: we're going to take a different path on this, and
Speaker 3: now you do see quite a bit of aggressive pushes
Speaker 3: for people to support Trump and the Trump administration because
Speaker 3: of this. So I don't know for sure if he's
Speaker 3: actually going to come out and vito it. I think
Speaker 3: it would be a huge mistake on his part. I
Speaker 3: think it would absolutely galvanize what is a very.
Speaker 4: Non partisan or bipartisan.
Speaker 3: Voter base that is, at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: like if you go after them, you're hurting not only
Speaker 3: their wallet, but you're hurt you're actually going after a
Speaker 3: lot of their core values on like what we think
Speaker 3: America should be about, innovation, access to your finances. With
Speaker 3: regards to bitcoin, you know, it's like the ability to
Speaker 3: be able to custody your own asset and be able
Speaker 3: to save for the future. There's obviously a million other
Speaker 3: great things about bitcoin benefits that has to offer everything
Speaker 3: from banking the end bank to financial inclusion.
Speaker 4: It's like, if you're.
Speaker 3: Against that, like, that's a pretty bad place to be
Speaker 3: in because those voters are going to, like you know,
Speaker 3: they're going to go to the mat to make sure
Speaker 3: that they can protect their issues. So I've always said
Speaker 3: that bitcoin and digital asset voters are some of the
Speaker 3: most well entrenched and motivated voters if you if you
Speaker 3: motivate them, and it looks like the Bide administration is
Speaker 3: ready to ready to motivate them against his own party.
Speaker 1: Now, he could just sit on this too, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: does he have to veto it right now?
Speaker 2: Or is there a deadline? Is there a clock counting down?
Speaker 3: There is a deadline, There was like a there is
Speaker 3: like a technically a ten day deadline once there's like
Speaker 3: there's a few nuances around when that deadline starts. But yeah,
Speaker 3: there is there is a deadline when he have he
Speaker 3: has to sign it or not sign it. If he
Speaker 3: doesn't sign it, then it like becomes law automatically. There's
Speaker 3: also weird rules around, like but if he isn't able
Speaker 3: to make it back in time and like the clock
Speaker 3: runs out on the session, then it's considered a pocket veto.
Speaker 3: It's it's it's a little messy out there, but yeah,
Speaker 3: there is some regulations or rules around when he has
Speaker 3: to respond.
Speaker 1: What I really what I really like is what you
Speaker 1: said about the momentum. We see the tide shifting. The
Speaker 1: tide is changing on this and so all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: it went from like this Elizabeth Warren led, Gary Gensler led,
Speaker 1: you know, attack on crypto. I mean she literally ran
Speaker 1: on like an anti crypto campaign and started started really
Speaker 1: cracking down choke point two point zero, all these things.
Speaker 1: And now all of a sudden, like we're seeing the
Speaker 1: exact opposite, Oklahoma taking the state, you know, other states
Speaker 1: jumping in and trying those rights, and now these these
Speaker 1: rules and laws, and then obviously Trump taking the other
Speaker 1: side of it, Kennedy RFK taking the other side of
Speaker 1: it as well, and it sort of forces Biden's hands like,
Speaker 1: I mean, you're either going to come out and you're
Speaker 1: against Americans having freedom to choose, or you're gonna have
Speaker 1: to go along with it.
Speaker 2: And so it's that momentum.
Speaker 1: And even if it doesn't make it make it through
Speaker 1: in this you know, specific case, it's the momentum. It's
Speaker 1: the direction that we're going. And it seems to be
Speaker 1: very bipartisan. It seems like a lot of the Democrats
Speaker 1: are jumping ship. They don't want to go down with
Speaker 1: the with the with the sinking ship of the Democrats
Speaker 1: if they're going to be restrictive on on these digital
Speaker 1: asset rights.
Speaker 2: I mean, is that is that kind of your take
Speaker 2: on it?
Speaker 4: I mean, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3: I think that for a long time we have heard
Speaker 3: that a number of Democrats in Congress are very supportive
Speaker 3: of the broader digital asset ecosystem. Some like Center Loves,
Speaker 3: of course, are are extremely pro bitcoin, champions of bitcoin
Speaker 3: on the on the Republican side. But it's great to
Speaker 3: finally see that they were given a moment to show
Speaker 3: how supportive they are of the space. And it's a
Speaker 3: it's a really big indicator of how many folks support
Speaker 3: the bitcoin and digital asset ecosystem from the left.
Speaker 4: And the right hand side of the aisle.
Speaker 3: And they they were given this opportunity to really just
Speaker 3: pick a side, and when it mattered right, it wasn't like, oh,
Speaker 3: you know, maybe this isn't the right move. There was
Speaker 3: so much broad support for this legislation that it forced
Speaker 3: a lot of these Democrats that I think were quietly
Speaker 3: supportive to break ranks from the party line that they
Speaker 3: had been holding for some time. And so, yes, that
Speaker 3: momentum is building quite significantly. We are a very proud
Speaker 3: contributor to that momentum. I mean, again, one of the
Speaker 3: very big parts about what we are trying to accomplish
Speaker 3: at the state level is to create that political momentum.
Speaker 3: There's a twenty fifteen Bloomberg study which highlights that when
Speaker 3: you see a flurry of state action on an issue,
Speaker 3: you tend to see in a very short period of
Speaker 3: time federal action take place. And we have created a
Speaker 3: flurry of action at the state level. We have introduced
Speaker 3: legislation in over twenty different states, everything from these policies
Speaker 3: which enable folks to be protected for self custody, to
Speaker 3: be able to study the big coin ETF to see
Speaker 3: if the state pensions want to buy the bitcoin ETF,
Speaker 3: to protecting nodes, to protecting bitcoin mining. And that's in
Speaker 3: over twenty states. That's a large portion of the United States.
Speaker 3: There's a flurry of activity taking place, legislation even being
Speaker 3: passed into law. When you see that type of flurry
Speaker 3: of activity, you do see federal action happen more often
Speaker 3: than not. We saw it with cannabis, We saw with
Speaker 3: gay marriage, We saw it with women's suffrage, we saw
Speaker 3: it with interracial marriage, and a number of other issues
Speaker 3: where throughout history, when the states move, the Feds end
Speaker 3: up following suit and acting alongside them. So very proud
Speaker 3: that we've been able to contribute to that momentum. And
Speaker 3: we think that's a big reason why people should be
Speaker 3: working at the state level, because the laboratory of democracy
Speaker 3: is a place where we can try out new ideas
Speaker 3: and show that they work and then force the FEDS
Speaker 3: to act in good behavior.
Speaker 1: All right, hopefully you're enjoying this conversation with Dennis and
Speaker 1: you understand that while we now are getting the protected
Speaker 1: right to customer on coin and so you should certainly
Speaker 1: do that. It's what's revolutionary about bitcoin. But how do
Speaker 1: you do that? I like to use a hardware wallet
Speaker 1: because I want to keep my private keys off the internet.
Speaker 1: You don't want to use a wallet on your phone.
Speaker 1: I've done that before I lost a lot of money,
Speaker 1: So you want to keep them off the internet.
Speaker 2: With a hardware wallet like this, it stores your private key.
Speaker 1: You plug it into your computer when you want to
Speaker 1: sign a transaction, and you unplug it and put it
Speaker 1: back into your safe. I've used Treasure forever seven eight
Speaker 1: years now. I've always used them because I think they're
Speaker 1: the easiest to use. Their newest device is even easier.
Speaker 1: It's got a digital display and they're open source, so
Speaker 1: you know there's no back doors or rug poles waiting
Speaker 1: for you. I highly recommend Treasure. And then you want
Speaker 1: to back up your private key, and they came up
Speaker 1: with this new device where I can inscribe my private
Speaker 1: key on this piece of metal so it can withstand fires,
Speaker 1: flood or anything. Because you want to back up your
Speaker 1: private key, check out Treasure. I've always been using them,
Speaker 1: I'm still using them today. You can save ten percent
Speaker 1: by using codemark Moss. Again, your right to custody your
Speaker 1: own bitcoin is now being entrined into law. You should
Speaker 1: certainly do that and use a device like Treasure. Save
Speaker 1: ten percent by u the code mark Moss. And while
Speaker 1: we're talking about bitcoin, I also want to let you
Speaker 1: know that the Bitcoin Conference in Nashville for twenty twenty
Speaker 1: four is coming up. It's right around the corner. I'm
Speaker 1: going to be there. I hope that you'll be there
Speaker 1: as well. If you care about understanding bitcoin, digital assets, freedom,
Speaker 1: understanding the problems in the world with frivolous money printing,
Speaker 1: then you need to be in the Bitcoin Conference in Nashville.
Speaker 1: It's July twenty fifth through twenty seventh. It's the largest
Speaker 1: bitcoin fintech conference in the world, and it's really it's
Speaker 1: a beacon of monetary freedom. It's a glimmer of hope
Speaker 1: amongst the darkening macroeconomic backdrop. Like I said, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be there, lots of top speakers are going to be,
Speaker 1: their companies are going to be their thought leaders are
Speaker 1: going to be there. And ticket prices keep going up,
Speaker 1: and so right now today is going to be the
Speaker 1: cheapest you can get it. And I can save you
Speaker 1: an extra ten percent if you use my code Mark
Speaker 1: Moss at checkout. But like I said, ticket prices just
Speaker 1: keep going up. So don't wait, get your tickets, save
Speaker 1: ten percent with code Mark Moss and let me know.
Speaker 1: Hit me up on social media if you're going to
Speaker 1: be there, because I want to meet you.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I love that. That's something I'm going to spend a
Speaker 1: second on that. The laboratory or of democracy. I've never
Speaker 1: heard it a termed that way.
Speaker 2: But I like that.
Speaker 1: And that's when states can compete. We can find through competition,
Speaker 1: we can find out better product service prices. Is what
Speaker 1: I typically call competition, and it allows us to try
Speaker 1: different things and see what works. And so to the
Speaker 1: point that you're kind of making them at the end,
Speaker 1: I might disagree a little bit. I mean, obviously, per
Speaker 1: the Constitution, the states are supposed to have the rights.
Speaker 1: The federal law is not really supposed to have much
Speaker 1: power over us on a day to day basis. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: the federal law has been creeping, creeping, creeping, creeping, creeping,
Speaker 1: and now is trying to sort of have control over
Speaker 1: the United States. But we are We see many examples
Speaker 1: where you know, basically right down the middle, red and
Speaker 1: blue states are just dividing. You know, twenty six states
Speaker 1: sign on to you know, whatever, whether it's supporting Trump,
Speaker 1: whether it's actually The next point I want to talk
Speaker 1: about is the CBDs for example. So lots of states
Speaker 1: have come out and banned ESG investing, for example. And
Speaker 1: now we have the CBDC going on. And so we
Speaker 1: just saw the US House passed a bill banning.
Speaker 2: A federal a federal or the Federal Reserve from issuing
Speaker 2: as CBDC.
Speaker 1: And again that seemed to be somewhat bipartisans Well, no,
Speaker 1: that actually seemed to be very partisan.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: We had two hundred and thirteen Republicans, only three Democrats
Speaker 1: voted for it. One hundred and ninety two Democrats voted
Speaker 1: against it, so that was extremely red and blue on
Speaker 1: that one. Do you guys work on that, what's your
Speaker 1: take on that?
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, we spent a lot of time on
Speaker 3: cbdc's you know. Generally speaking, I'm very interested in seeing
Speaker 3: a competition take place over what would be some form
Speaker 3: of dollar stable coin. I don't really prefer the idea
Speaker 3: of a central bank digital currency. I think that they
Speaker 3: not only diminish quite dramatically at our privacy as individuals,
Speaker 3: but they also just give more power to the FED,
Speaker 3: and they take that power away from Congress and from
Speaker 3: the people. And I would much rather see a world
Speaker 3: where we have a US dollar back stable coins competing
Speaker 3: and work to be able to provide great products for
Speaker 3: the American people. And we do see that taking place,
Speaker 3: and ultimately, I think that at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: it's going to be a big win for the US.
Speaker 4: Like you know, a lot of.
Speaker 3: Us in some of us in the bitcoin space. I
Speaker 3: wouldn't say I'm included in this group, but some of
Speaker 3: us in the bitcoin space, you know, want to see
Speaker 3: the dollar system move away. I think that that's that's
Speaker 3: not going to happen anytime soon. We're going to see
Speaker 3: a massive proliferation of stable coins across the world, especially
Speaker 3: as stable coins become one of the number one buyers
Speaker 3: of US treasuries. The United States likes that not only
Speaker 3: are you getting dollars and in the hands of folks
Speaker 3: across the world, you are also you know, those companies
Speaker 3: that are buying that are offering these stable coins are turning.
Speaker 4: Right around and buying US treasuries.
Speaker 3: I mean, tether is like the twentieth largest national holder
Speaker 3: of US treasuries, right behind Germany. That's pretty incredible, especially
Speaker 3: in a time when interest rates are rising. The fact
Speaker 3: that there is a marketplace coming in to buy these treasuries,
Speaker 3: it's actually suppressing those interest rates and keeping interest rates
Speaker 3: lower for Americans.
Speaker 4: So it's really a win win for Americans.
Speaker 3: I think, well, those of us that don't like the
Speaker 3: Fiat system, obviously, you know, we want to see this
Speaker 3: transition and we want to see the system get better.
Speaker 4: I also think that the system does will get better.
Speaker 3: I don't think we necessarily need to have a crash landing.
Speaker 3: I think we can soft land this plane and harmonize
Speaker 3: these two worlds.
Speaker 4: I think that bitcoin ultimately can.
Speaker 3: Become a really powerful tool to be able to show
Speaker 3: what's going on in the economy. And at the end
Speaker 3: of the day, I think it will help keep the
Speaker 3: people or the industries or the institutions overseeing that fiat
Speaker 3: system more responsible, right, because it's like a mirror that
Speaker 3: you're looking at and it like it reflux every bad
Speaker 3: move that you make. So at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: I think bitcoin instills more monetary responsibility in governments. I
Speaker 3: think that stable coins will proliferate and that those stable
Speaker 3: coin issuers will buy you as treasuries, and that that
Speaker 3: will help stay the US economy and really the world.
Speaker 3: And then as more people this is my big pitch
Speaker 3: to bitcoiners too, It's like, as more people are on
Speaker 3: stable coins, they're gonna buy bitcoin. You wonder how I
Speaker 3: know that because the largest buyers of bitcoin are all
Speaker 3: the people who hold us scholars, like all the Americans.
Speaker 4: Have all the bitcoin.
Speaker 3: Why Because, at the end of the day, like the
Speaker 3: dollar helps us to have a much more stable ability
Speaker 3: to plan for the future and to be able to
Speaker 3: pay for our groceries and pay for our rent. Yes,
Speaker 3: inflation has been raging recently. It's diminishing. But compare that
Speaker 3: to like people in Zimbabwe, Compare that to people in Venezuela.
Speaker 3: Compare that to people across the world with local currencies
Speaker 3: that just aren't operating at the way that they should be.
Speaker 3: Moving to a dollar system for them will help them
Speaker 3: transition in a better way towards bitcoin. I mean, I've
Speaker 3: heard you hear all the time, people go into Africa,
Speaker 3: people go into Latin America. You know, why don't we
Speaker 3: see this large mass adoption of bitcoin because it's.
Speaker 4: Not quite stable enough for people to like plan their
Speaker 4: out and they're rent out. But I think the dollar is.
Speaker 3: And then as people transition to a crypto stable coin dollar,
Speaker 3: then from there they're also going to say, oh wow,
Speaker 3: in their wallet where they're looking at all the exchange
Speaker 3: rates of all the digital assets, a little at this
Speaker 3: bitcoin thing.
Speaker 4: You know what, I've actually been able to save a
Speaker 4: little better recently.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna take a little bit of my money and
Speaker 3: I'm gonna put it in bitcoin.
Speaker 4: People need to keep in mind. This is the last
Speaker 4: point I like to make on this.
Speaker 3: I think it's really important that the ability to save
Speaker 3: for the future and to actually save in a bank
Speaker 3: account that you know that's not gonna get pillaged. Is
Speaker 3: like a Western privilege. A lot of parts of Africa,
Speaker 3: a lot of parts of Latin America or the world.
Speaker 4: Do not have this privilege.
Speaker 3: They have unstable currencies, they can't save in, and even
Speaker 3: if they do save in them, they put them in
Speaker 3: a bank account, They're gonna get pillaged. If you want
Speaker 3: to save for a house, and a lot of these places,
Speaker 3: you have to buy like save in bricks. You have
Speaker 3: to buy the bricks individually because you know that your
Speaker 3: local currency is not going to maintain its value in
Speaker 3: order to pay for that house in the future.
Speaker 4: So I know it's a little.
Speaker 3: I would say counterintuitive for some folks that want to
Speaker 3: see bitcoin be successful.
Speaker 4: But at the end of the day, I do really
Speaker 4: believe that as we.
Speaker 3: Move towards the bitcoin world, we will see a pliferation
Speaker 3: of stable coins that really unlocks the ability for people
Speaker 3: to buy even more bitcoin.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, I totally agree.
Speaker 1: There's interim steps. So I try to remind people all
Speaker 1: the time this is a process.
Speaker 2: It's not an event.
Speaker 1: So like we wake up one day and it happens,
Speaker 1: is there's a process that happens. I think most nations,
Speaker 1: especially the rise of the bricks, I mean China, Russia
Speaker 1: as well. They're probably going to try and go back
Speaker 1: to gold somewhere. In the meantime, I think that might
Speaker 1: be an intermediary step as well. The people more decentralized
Speaker 1: probably go to more of like a US dollar stable coin.
Speaker 2: There's going to be.
Speaker 1: Lots of things that are being tried and tested, and
Speaker 1: there's a process that it's going to take us to
Speaker 1: get there. But going back to the CBDC ban for
Speaker 1: a second, they seem to be very partisan. It got
Speaker 1: through the House, but this still has to get through
Speaker 1: the Senate as well. Am I right on that.
Speaker 3: The CBDC band, Yes, that passed to the House, and
Speaker 3: it's probably has even less of a chance to get
Speaker 3: to the Senate.
Speaker 1: In regards to the CBDC just a little bit. I'm
Speaker 1: just curious if you've dug into this a lot. I
Speaker 1: know you've probably worked on it quite a bit in
Speaker 1: today's world. I just saw Jordan's Peters and I took
Speaker 1: my daughter to go see him a week ago.
Speaker 2: Was amazing and they.
Speaker 1: Talked about how at the end of a society where
Speaker 1: we start to think that we're too smart, he references
Speaker 1: the Tower of Babel. We can no longer understand each
Speaker 1: other anymore. And he said, the story behind the Tower
Speaker 1: of Babel is that they worshiped engineering. And when we
Speaker 1: get so full of conceit, we can no longer understand
Speaker 1: each other. And so today says like what's a woman?
Speaker 1: We can't understand each other anymore. And so definitions have
Speaker 1: gotten lost. And so going back.
Speaker 2: To CBDC, like what is that?
Speaker 1: So, for example, eighty or about ninety percent of all
Speaker 1: dollar transactions are done digitally right now. Anyway, I don't
Speaker 1: really carry a lot of cash, I hate, it's all
Speaker 1: wire transfers, debit cards, et cetera. And so we're already
Speaker 1: using a digital dollar. And so could they just not
Speaker 1: call it a CBDC? Could they just keep calling it
Speaker 1: a dollar? But since it's already digital dollars anyway, they
Speaker 1: just kind of put the extra things in there. It
Speaker 1: runs on a different set of rails. They don't really
Speaker 1: tell us that. I mean, they can ban the word, right,
Speaker 1: but like how intricate is the bill and like what
Speaker 1: exactly is it actually trying to block?
Speaker 3: I mean, I would say, ultimately, the major problem, I
Speaker 3: think that a lot of lawmakers have with cbdc's is
Speaker 3: that they are going to diminish the amount of privacy
Speaker 3: that Americans have because it will create a payment system
Speaker 3: where the FED has total like access to all the
Speaker 3: data that's going on unmitigated right now. That's it's slightly different,
Speaker 3: although it's not necessarily too much better, in the sense
Speaker 3: that you know, there's a there's a bunch of different
Speaker 3: companies that have your private information, and you know what
Speaker 3: you're buying and what you're transacting on PayPal.
Speaker 4: MasterCard, visa.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's it's decentralized so to speak. I mean,
Speaker 3: of course they probably have backdoor access to a lot
Speaker 3: of this information, and there's the third party doctrine which
Speaker 3: enables them to anybody.
Speaker 4: That's if you give your the third party.
Speaker 3: Doctor basically says, if I give my information over to
Speaker 3: a third party, that the government can ask that third
Speaker 3: party for it.
Speaker 4: It's not necessarily an invasion of prising.
Speaker 3: And that's it in like a very simplified form, and
Speaker 3: that's what allows the government to invade our privacy, which
Speaker 3: I think is I think I'm obviously opposed to third
Speaker 3: party doctrine, but the FED, it's like washing all that away,
Speaker 3: just and streamlining the capture of your information and your data.
Speaker 3: And I also the second point that I think that
Speaker 3: lawmakers are most concerned about with CBDCs is that it
Speaker 3: gives this granular control over money that we've never seen before,
Speaker 3: and that would be a problem when you get someone
Speaker 3: into power that you don't agree with.
Speaker 4: Like as an example, I mean, we've had.
Speaker 3: Administrations before who have threatened to kick people out of
Speaker 3: the financial system. So the CBDCs would just blow that
Speaker 3: power up.
Speaker 2: And enable threaten What do you mean threatened?
Speaker 1: My friend, doctor Joe Mercola had has been count shut down.
Speaker 1: Everyone that worked for him has a count shut down,
Speaker 1: and the people that work forms families got their count
Speaker 1: shut down. This was just six months ago. This stuff
Speaker 1: happens all the time. So it's really they're really trying
Speaker 1: to protect people's privacy and freedom to transact, and not
Speaker 1: specifically the word CBDC, I guess is what you're saying.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's the big that's the big message
Speaker 3: here is protect people's right to transact, protect people's privacy,
Speaker 3: and that cbdc's with dramatically tear down those those institutions.
Speaker 1: All right, last topic, real quick. I know, we gotta
Speaker 1: we got to wrap this up. But back to sort
Speaker 1: of the comment that you made, and I'm agreeing with that,
Speaker 1: we're seeing the tide shifting, right, We're seeing momentum swinging,
Speaker 1: which again is ridiculous. Of course, we should have freedom
Speaker 1: to transact as we see fit, but at least we're
Speaker 1: starting to see that politically starting to swing back that
Speaker 1: way we talked about sort of Elizabeth Warren and Gary
Speaker 1: Ginsler have been seemingly very aggressive against our freedom to
Speaker 1: transact with crypto and digital assets and bitcoin, et cetera,
Speaker 1: and maybe some of that starting to.
Speaker 2: Shift as well.
Speaker 1: Do you think the yesterday's news of the Ethereum ETF
Speaker 1: getting approved, the spot ETF being approved, is that like
Speaker 1: Gary Ginsler realizing that he's lost the war and he's
Speaker 1: just got to throw the talent. I mean, is this
Speaker 1: like really a big signpost that like, hey Warren Ginsler,
Speaker 1: get out of the way, like we're moving forward, or
Speaker 1: what's your take on that and what does that mean
Speaker 1: in the greater context of things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a big capitulation and in some
Speaker 3: ways could be seen as an SEC pivot. Could where
Speaker 3: that came from I think will will be really important
Speaker 3: where that order came from, so to speak. I don't
Speaker 3: know if that was a decision by Gary Gensler himself.
Speaker 3: I don't know if that was something that was from
Speaker 3: on high, the Biden administration or the Warren camp. But
Speaker 3: ultimately that's a level of capitulation or pivoting on the issue.
Speaker 3: Right we everyone was saying twenty five percent chance at
Speaker 3: best of an etherey a METF getting through and not.
Speaker 4: Someone listen, I'm not living my day.
Speaker 3: Isn't getting ruined necessarily if an ETF to and get approved,
Speaker 3: But it does. Again, I think the important message here
Speaker 3: is it highlights how much things are changing and how
Speaker 3: much the momentum has shifted to the side of the
Speaker 3: broader digital acid ecosystem. So yeah, it's interesting to see
Speaker 3: the way it's the way it's played out, don't I
Speaker 3: can't tell you. You can't read minds. I don't think anybody
Speaker 3: really knows yet. But ultimately it is a very positive
Speaker 3: sign and in a momentum builder for the space to
Speaker 3: see this, to see it get passed.
Speaker 2: All right, all right, well, we got a couple minutes left.
Speaker 1: If you want to just stay like obviously Stoshi Action
Speaker 1: Fund is out there on the forefront. Do you want
Speaker 1: to talk about anything like initiatives that you're working on,
Speaker 1: like big things that are maybe in the works, things
Speaker 1: that be paying attention to.
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
Speaker 3: You know, you mentioned d banking just a moment ago,
Speaker 3: and that is an issue that we care deeply about
Speaker 3: as ATOCI Action. We see folks in the bitcoin, bitcoin mining,
Speaker 3: digital asset space being d banked at rates I mean,
Speaker 3: I've never seen in my lifetime, I've never even heard
Speaker 3: of historically, and we want to make sure that we
Speaker 3: put an end to the banking. And there are three
Speaker 3: major components to the powers that be in the banking world.
Speaker 3: That is the OCC. It's the federal regulator for banks.
Speaker 3: It's the FDIC. Those are the guys that do the
Speaker 3: insurance frear bank account. And then there's the FED. They
Speaker 3: have the FED Master accounts. We did a lot of research.
Speaker 3: We put out a big paper on this. I encourage
Speaker 3: people to go look it up on our websites atociaction
Speaker 3: dot io under our policy section under debanking, and it
Speaker 3: really highlights how the major point, the major choke point
Speaker 3: for anyone is the FED Master account. Because the FED
Speaker 3: has godlike power over who gets a fed Master account.
Speaker 3: You don't need to look any further than Caitlyn Long
Speaker 3: and Custodia to know that they were denied a fed
Speaker 3: Master account. In my opinion, I think it was pretty
Speaker 3: obvious it was done in a discriminatory fashion. And so
Speaker 3: we put forward this paper saying this is the problem.
Speaker 3: Fed Master accounts for the problem. How do we solve
Speaker 3: this problem? And I believe that we solve it by
Speaker 3: having states have their own fed Master accounts. And we're
Speaker 3: already all the pathways to showing that that can be
Speaker 3: truly success.
Speaker 4: The state of Texas.
Speaker 3: Already has its own fed Master account. North Dakota already
Speaker 3: has a state bank with its own fed Master account.
Speaker 3: So we don't even need to pass legislation to see
Speaker 3: if this thing will work. We really just need to
Speaker 3: take that, knowing that we have those fed Master accounts
Speaker 3: and say, okay, let's position this industry underneath that fed
Speaker 3: Master account and see what the federal government is going
Speaker 3: to try to come after the states, Because at the
Speaker 3: end of the day, if they try to come after
Speaker 3: state's powers to bank an industry and their own fed
Speaker 3: Master account, you are just like striking right at the
Speaker 3: heart of constitutional powers that are given to the states
Speaker 3: in the dual banking system. And if you do that,
Speaker 3: you are going to see the fastest tracked a banking
Speaker 3: lawsuit get to the Supreme Court in a matter of time.
Speaker 3: And I think with the current makeup that Supreme Court
Speaker 3: would definitely side that dual banking still exist in America,
Speaker 3: and if that happens, we essentially end debanking in the
Speaker 3: United States overnight.
Speaker 1: Now you talk about the FED Master account and that's,
Speaker 1: like you said, reference Kaitlyn Long who's been on the
Speaker 1: show a couple of times, and she's trying to get
Speaker 1: a bank through and they won't give her the ability
Speaker 1: or they won't pass they want license that to go through.
Speaker 1: But when you talk about the banking like Conductor Joe
Speaker 1: mccola's case, for example, it was the commercial bank that
Speaker 1: shuts a count down. So I mean, are you saying
Speaker 1: are you saying that came from the Fed? Like, hey,
Speaker 1: commercial banks shut his count down, But it seems like
Speaker 1: the decision was made at the lower level because he
Speaker 1: was able to get other banks.
Speaker 3: Listen, the banks are businesses. Why would a bank not
Speaker 3: want you to come do business with them? It's because
Speaker 3: the federal regulators are applying undue pressure on banks to
Speaker 3: debank those people that they don't politically agree with, that
Speaker 3: they don't align with, or that they don't they think
Speaker 3: is a competition to their banking system. Right, So the
Speaker 3: way this works is the FDIC says, hey, I'm going
Speaker 3: to raise your rates.
Speaker 4: If you bank this industry, you know, you better watch out.
Speaker 3: And then the banks themselves are like, well, we don't
Speaker 3: want to deal with that, or the FED or someone
Speaker 3: else in the regulatory space, like, we're going to audit
Speaker 3: you if you don't, if you don't get rid of
Speaker 3: these crypto people, see they're safe, that they're unsafe, they're
Speaker 3: not sound, So we're gonna have to audit you a
Speaker 3: little bit more and that's going to bring your costs up.
Speaker 4: So it's very pervasive the way that it's taking place.
Speaker 3: But at the end of the day, that will power
Speaker 3: at the FED Master accounts is the one that you
Speaker 3: hone in on because you can get away from the FDIIC. Right,
Speaker 3: you can say I don't want insurance at my bank.
Speaker 3: I'm going to just do a fully reserve back one
Speaker 3: and five percent like Kitlin Long. You can also In
Speaker 3: the case of the OCC which is the federal regulator
Speaker 3: for banks, you can say, well, I don't want to
Speaker 3: be federally regulated.
Speaker 4: I want to be regulated by my state. I'm going
Speaker 4: to be a state charter bank.
Speaker 3: So you can avoid those two regulators, but you cannot
Speaker 3: avoid the FED Master account. It is impossible. You have
Speaker 3: to have either ad.
Speaker 4: Direct access to a FED Master account or you have to.
Speaker 3: Bank with an intermediary bank where or your bank that
Speaker 3: you want to go to that say like offers crypto services,
Speaker 3: has to go to an intermatory bank and say, hey,
Speaker 3: you have a FED Master account, let me use your
Speaker 3: settlement process with the FED in order to ensure that
Speaker 3: I can not only bank these people, but still you know,
Speaker 3: get everything cleared out. But that is a situation where
Speaker 3: those even those intermediary banks are saying, we don't want
Speaker 3: to touch anything. We don't want to touch other banks
Speaker 3: that are crypt banking the crypto industry, because we're going
Speaker 3: to get pressure applied to us by that, you know,
Speaker 3: that federal banking mafia system that's been created over the
Speaker 3: decades and over the last hundred years. Really, so that's
Speaker 3: really where the problem is is that if you try
Speaker 3: to bank this space, then you're going to run into
Speaker 3: one of those problems. And even if you try to
Speaker 3: eliminate the two, the FDIC and OCC, you simply cannot
Speaker 3: eliminate that chow point the Federal Reserve.
Speaker 2: Good stuff, Dennis. I know we got to wrap this up.
Speaker 1: You're on your way to a nice little vocation, so
Speaker 1: I don't want to hold you back from that, but
Speaker 1: I do want to just kind of shout out just
Speaker 1: a little challenge just to the audience.
Speaker 2: Again.
Speaker 1: I was just seeing Jordan Peterson live last week with
Speaker 1: my daughter. He was amazing as always, and at the
Speaker 1: end he talked about how and really his message has
Speaker 1: always been that we should all take personal responsibility for ourselves,
Speaker 1: and that's always been his message, like pull yourself up
Speaker 1: from a bootstraps, wipe your face off, like take responsibility
Speaker 1: for yourself. And he talked about the difference of tyranny
Speaker 1: and slavery and how they're sort of opposite sides and
Speaker 1: the slave doesn't want to take personal responsibility for themselves,
Speaker 1: are just always being told what to do. And the
Speaker 1: problem is that he says that specifically in regards to
Speaker 1: the way the world is working in politics.
Speaker 2: And specific specificity, if.
Speaker 1: We don't step up and take personal responsibility for ourselves,
Speaker 1: and we don't step up and take personal responsibility for
Speaker 1: our our political system, our local politics, and maybe on
Speaker 1: a bigger level, if we don't step up and take
Speaker 1: responsibility for that, then the tyrants will So by abdicating
Speaker 1: our responsibility, that leaves a vacuum. The tyrants will come
Speaker 1: and pick that up. And so his challenge is be
Speaker 1: responsible not just for yourself, but for your community and
Speaker 1: for your and for the political system as well, if
Speaker 1: you care, and to be honest with you, Dennis, I
Speaker 1: heard him say this. This is the second time I
Speaker 1: heard him say this, and it's just like, oh, it's
Speaker 1: like man, it's like he's he's absolutely right. So I
Speaker 1: applaud what you're doing. And I recommend everybody go check
Speaker 1: out the Tushi Action Fund. If you can't, if you
Speaker 1: don't have the time, maybe you can at least support
Speaker 1: them in some way. Anything else you want to say
Speaker 1: in closing, Dennis.
Speaker 3: No, thank you again for having me on Mark, And yeah,
Speaker 3: I'll finish with a with a great Plato quote.
Speaker 4: You know, one of the.
Speaker 3: Penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you
Speaker 3: end up being governed by your inferiors. So it's true.
Speaker 3: I know a lot of people don't want to engage
Speaker 3: in the political system. They don't like it, it's gross. But
Speaker 3: if you just say, hey, I'm going to abdicate that responsibility,
Speaker 3: I'm not going to get involved, somebody's going to get
Speaker 3: involved and they're going to end up making rules that
Speaker 3: you have to follow. So I always tell people, you know,
Speaker 3: if you want to make sure that America upholds its
Speaker 3: values and that we had the right direction, that there's
Speaker 3: no better way to do that than to get involved
Speaker 3: in the political process.
Speaker 2: Awesome, all right, Dennis. Always a pleasure. Thanks for joining
Speaker 2: me today.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Mark