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Speaker 1: Everybody just driving in back to my house. And there's

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Speaker 1: like this white BMW that was right next to me

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Speaker 1: driving on the road. But we've going only forty five

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Speaker 1: miles an hour. Wasn't like a highway or anything. And

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Speaker 1: these four kids started to wave. And if I'm in

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Speaker 1: a car and someone starts to wave to me, there

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Speaker 1: are a few things that can be. Number One, it

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Speaker 1: can be that I have a flat tire that's happened before.

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Speaker 1: Number Two, it can be that my gas cap is

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Speaker 1: hanging out because it is on like a little plastic

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Speaker 1: thread that you know, keeps it attached to the car.

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Speaker 1: That's happened before. It could be that they're fans of

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Speaker 1: the show. Now, being that they're seventeen to nineteen years old,

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Speaker 1: I probably don't think they're fans of the show. If

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Speaker 1: that happens, probably a little too young at this point.

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Speaker 1: But they're waving. They're waving. I'm waving back, and also

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Speaker 1: have a pretty cool car, and so sometimes it's that,

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Speaker 1: and so wind down and slowed down a little bit

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Speaker 1: because I don't want to hit the kids. I don't

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Speaker 1: want them to hit me either. And the kid in

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Speaker 1: the back seat he goes, hey, big fan, I was like,

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Speaker 1: oh cool, it is one of those times. And he

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Speaker 1: was like, you're Johnny Knoxville, right, No. I was like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not Johnny Knoxville, but thank you. So I wonder

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Speaker 1: if one time in his life, because Johnny Knoxville is

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Speaker 1: actually famous, but I wonder if one time in his

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Speaker 1: life Johnny Knoxville has been approched and someone has said like,

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Speaker 1: hey you Bobby Bones. Just once. But yeah, that happened

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Speaker 1: on the way here to do this, I've been the

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Speaker 1: last couple of days I don't want to say dealing

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Speaker 1: with because it's not really anything significant, but and this

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Speaker 1: has happened a lot through the last ten to eleven

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Speaker 1: years of my career where I will get dms or

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Speaker 1: texts from artists and it will always be kind of

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Speaker 1: like a warm up, a warm up before they ask.

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Speaker 1: And the thing is I really can't do much for them,

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Speaker 1: meaning I don't really program music, which is why when

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Speaker 1: people are like, you're what's wrong with country music? I

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Speaker 1: don't really have anything to do with country music as

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Speaker 1: far as putting it out there. There was a time

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Speaker 1: in my career five or six years ago where I

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Speaker 1: was playing a bit more music, but I don't program music.

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Speaker 1: I literally program two things. One the national Countdown on

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Speaker 1: the weekend, but not the actual countdown that's determined by

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Speaker 1: spens and radio stations all across the country. I play

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Speaker 1: one song. I pick the spotlight artist of the week

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Speaker 1: like I do that, and that's a significant spin, I guess,

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Speaker 1: because pretty much every city in the country plays that,

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Speaker 1: but it's only one time, one time on the weekend.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that I do, because I put it

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Speaker 1: in my contract, is the Women of iHeart Country Show.

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Speaker 1: So the quick story of that is six seven years ago,

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Speaker 1: in my contract, when I had a bit of leverage,

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Speaker 1: I said, hey, I want one hour every weekend to

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Speaker 1: just play female songs on every one of ours, which

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Speaker 1: is like two hundred plus stations. And at the time,

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Speaker 1: I think everybody thought that was a little weird because

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Speaker 1: they're like, you're not even a woman, and you know,

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Speaker 1: candidly speaking, they were, that's true, I'm not a woman.

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Speaker 1: But it was very much the beginning of hey, why

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Speaker 1: aren't there as many women being played on the radio?

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Speaker 1: And so I wanted to be out in the front

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Speaker 1: of that. I already was, but because I'm a dude,

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Speaker 1: you kind of don't get the credit. It wasn't wal

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Speaker 1: I look for the credit. But like when I would tour,

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Speaker 1: I had all for the most part, female openers. I

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Speaker 1: was constantly having female guests on the show that weren't

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Speaker 1: so I was already doing my part, but I really

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Speaker 1: wasn't doing anything national programming wise that was consistent. And

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Speaker 1: so I said, hey, give me this hour because I

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Speaker 1: wanted to get female artists a bit of a I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I should share this, like a bit

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Speaker 1: of a spike on the chart, because it was a

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Speaker 1: pretty heavy play on that show. Like i'd play a

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Speaker 1: couple songs from new artists, they'd get a big spike.

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Speaker 1: Program directors would see they got a whole bunch of

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Speaker 1: spins and they go, oh, maybe this song is good.

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Speaker 1: Give it a listen. And it really didn't change like

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Speaker 1: the total outcome of a record, but maybe it gave

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Speaker 1: some of those artists a chance earlier. So that was

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Speaker 1: a whole idea behind it. So I have an hour

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Speaker 1: and I programmed that, and you're gonna see my point here.

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Speaker 1: And if I want to, like they call it spike

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Speaker 1: a song in I can do that, which is just

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Speaker 1: on my show. If I decided I want to play

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Speaker 1: a song. I'll play a song, but I really don't

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Speaker 1: want to be the song guy, because with that comes

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Speaker 1: everybody wanting me to play their songs, and that's just

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Speaker 1: not me. And again, there was a time when I

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Speaker 1: was breaking songs like crazy, if it was buy Me

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Speaker 1: a Boat or Girl Crush or I Love This Life

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Speaker 1: Low Cash. There's six or seven of those songs that

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Speaker 1: I played a whole lot when nobody else was playing,

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Speaker 1: which really moved him up to the chart and then gave

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Speaker 1: them really strong I mean to go other places and

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Speaker 1: go like, look, it's getting a lot of play. I

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Speaker 1: stopped doing that because one, I don't want to base

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Speaker 1: my career on music I don't make. So it's been

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Speaker 1: something that I occasionally do, but I don't really put

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Speaker 1: any significant time, thought effort into it. But that doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean that people don't hit me up thinking either either

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Speaker 1: A I have more power than I actually do, which

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Speaker 1: is not a whole lot. I guess I have a

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Speaker 1: little sway with the president of iHeart Country. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I've worked with them for thirteen years. I know them

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Speaker 1: very well, but you know not anyway, I get the

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Speaker 1: warm up from these artists and it'll just be a

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Speaker 1: reach out out of nowhere to be like, what's up,

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Speaker 1: how's it going, how you been? And I can tell

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Speaker 1: immediately when the warm up is happening, because I know

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Speaker 1: the warm up is going to be possibly a day

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Speaker 1: a day and a half of hey, cool, we should

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Speaker 1: hang out sometime whatever else, and then bam, they'll be

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Speaker 1: you know, a file in my text message and hey,

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Speaker 1: if you don't mind, would you check this song out

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Speaker 1: and tell me what you think of it? And when

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Speaker 1: an artist asks you what do you think of a song,

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Speaker 1: they really don't want your opinion unless it's good. They

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Speaker 1: really just want you to go, oh, it's excellent. I'd

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Speaker 1: love to play it. And if you don't say that,

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Speaker 1: then they're going to ask, hey, is there any way

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Speaker 1: you can play it? So I mean getting the warm

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Speaker 1: up from a couple of artists, one through text, one

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Speaker 1: through DM around the same time ironically, and I know them,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not friends with them now. At the same time,

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Speaker 1: there's another artist that hit me up a couple of

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Speaker 1: weeks ago, who I don't know either. I don't know

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Speaker 1: how they got my cephone number, don't I mean, I

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Speaker 1: don't really care, but they just were like Hey, this

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Speaker 1: is so and so I got this new song out.

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Speaker 1: Would you listen to it? And if you like it,

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Speaker 1: maybe you'll consider it. I respect that so much more,

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Speaker 1: and I don't think I ever played it, but I

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Speaker 1: don't like bad taste in my mouth, just because it

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Speaker 1: was right to the point, like it was honest, where

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Speaker 1: the other people are like, let me give you a

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Speaker 1: little massage, let me tickle you around the waist. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that'd be five hundred dollars. It's kind of I guess

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Speaker 1: it's not really the same, but that's what I've been

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Speaker 1: dealing with, and I just know when it's coming, and

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Speaker 1: so I guess I can be a little cold when

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Speaker 1: I see it coming because I don't respond. And one

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Speaker 1: of them, they were dming me, and I knew what

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Speaker 1: it was because it had already been like three messages

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Speaker 1: and this has probably happened to me before at some

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Speaker 1: point with the same artist, and so I didn't want

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Speaker 1: them to see that I had read their DM, so

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Speaker 1: I just would delete the message, and then like clockwork,

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Speaker 1: the next day, Boom got a new song. Would love

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Speaker 1: for you to check it out. It also sucks because

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Speaker 1: it makes me not trust anybody, and the thing is

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Speaker 1: I don't really have the power. I don't have power

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Speaker 1: to like shape our career, like I can put you

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Speaker 1: on the show or the podcast, and that's more of

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Speaker 1: a macro versus a micro thing, because if you come

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Speaker 1: on the show or you come on the Bobby Cast,

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Speaker 1: usually that translates into like social media. You know, the

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Speaker 1: podcast does really well now it's probably the second biggest

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Speaker 1: country music podcast. The Bobby Cast is behind our show,

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Speaker 1: which is number one, so there is some significance to that.

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Speaker 1: But I just don't have the power for the music.

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Speaker 1: But then it has me not not like the artists

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Speaker 1: who do that, which it isn't fair because I know

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Speaker 1: it's their job to hustle in a way, but I

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Speaker 1: don't like the grossness of it, like I did like

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Speaker 1: the guy who I didn't really know that hit me

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Speaker 1: up and was like, hey, I got the song. I

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Speaker 1: listen to it and if there's any chance you considered

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Speaker 1: to play, that'd be awesome. And there was no like question,

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Speaker 1: there was no like what do you think about it?

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Speaker 1: Because if you ever tell an artist what you think

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Speaker 1: about something a song and you're like, yeah, I don't

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Speaker 1: really think it was that good, it wasn't for me.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that because I know that's not what

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Speaker 1: they're looking for. They're not looking for general feedback. That's

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Speaker 1: happened a couple of times with friends, and they're not

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Speaker 1: even asking like, hey, is it a good song? They're going, hey,

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Speaker 1: do you think if we took this to the vice

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Speaker 1: president of programming that they would like it? Do you think?

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Speaker 1: And those answers I can give, but I don't really

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Speaker 1: want to, like not like artists, because it affects other decisions,

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Speaker 1: Like there are times where it's like it's an interview

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Speaker 1: coming up with this person do you want it? And

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Speaker 1: it's been kind of gross like that, and I've just

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Speaker 1: been like, I don't think so, Like I don't want

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Speaker 1: to be around something that makes me feel weird, or

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Speaker 1: if I feel like somebody has I go to your

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Speaker 1: motives with something. So that's been the last couple of

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Speaker 1: days that in my tooth a tooth here is still broken.

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Speaker 1: I get a lot of messages from you guys that

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Speaker 1: are like, hey, why's your tooth gone? And my wife,

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Speaker 1: especially who calls it tiny, she's not a fan of it.

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Speaker 1: My dentist actually just text me because I think he

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Speaker 1: saw it online as well, and he's like, hey, come in,

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Speaker 1: let's fix your tooth. And I kind of decided that

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Speaker 1: I wasn't going to fix my tooth until I had

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Speaker 1: a reason to fix it, meaning if I was going

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Speaker 1: to go and do some television work of some sort.

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Speaker 1: So the thing was, I'll fix it when it needs

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Speaker 1: to be fixed, because I don't only like going to

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Speaker 1: the dentist. Although my dentist is good, but you see

202
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Speaker 1: here it's still gone, it's still jagged. But at this

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Speaker 1: point I did pay for it already, so I should

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Speaker 1: go and get it fixed. I'm hoping that this recording

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Speaker 1: here which you're watching either on YouTube or the audio,

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Speaker 1: sounds good. I'm trying in a different way, so hopefully

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Speaker 1: it doesn't look or sound too weird. And if it does,

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Speaker 1: don't worry done. I'll stop doing it this way, I

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Speaker 1: get a lot of I got a lot of response

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Speaker 1: to that YouTube video that I did on artists that

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Speaker 1: don't like each other. And if you go over onder

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Speaker 1: the YouTube page, which the YouTube page is different than

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Speaker 1: the Bobby Bone Show YouTube page, this is at Bobby

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Speaker 1: Bone's channel. I probably shouldn't change you back to the

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Speaker 1: Bobby cast, but over on the channel. I did all

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Speaker 1: these artists that had feuds, and then people that I

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Speaker 1: have fought with, I'm not even gonna say feuds because

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Speaker 1: who cares about me over the years, and I keep

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Speaker 1: getting messages in d like are you feuding with anybody now?

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Speaker 1: I'm really not, because like it's mostly energy and time waste,

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Speaker 1: Like it's all a suck of time and energy. And

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Speaker 1: also I just kind at this stage of my life

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Speaker 1: cut people out if that relationship isn't a net positive

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Speaker 1: for both of us. And I think relationships should be

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Speaker 1: romantic relationships, friendships, any relationship should be a net positive.

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Speaker 1: That doesn't mean it's always going to go good. As

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Speaker 1: a matter of fact, the longer that you're in them,

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Speaker 1: if they are substantial, it is not going to go good.

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Speaker 1: But at the end, when you tally it all out,

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Speaker 1: you should actually be a little better because of the relationship.

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Speaker 1: I can give you a story and I'm not beefing

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Speaker 1: or feuding with this person just because I've chosen not to.

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Speaker 1: But and I'll keep the timeline out. It was I

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Speaker 1: would have considered this person a friend. And so I

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Speaker 1: was doing a charity event and the chair already said

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Speaker 1: to me because we weren't getting paid because it's for charity. Hey,

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Speaker 1: do you have anybody that would want to hop on

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Speaker 1: and do this charity event with you, like a co headliner.

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Speaker 1: And so I called this person friend of mine and

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Speaker 1: I was like, Hey, here's the charity. I think it's

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Speaker 1: something you might want to be involved in. And they

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Speaker 1: were like, yeah, sounds great. And so we had signed

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Speaker 1: up to do this charity event like eight months ahead

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Speaker 1: of time, well a few weeks to a month leading

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Speaker 1: into it. And again I would have said I was

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Speaker 1: actual friends with this person, not just buddies that you

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Speaker 1: see or people could come on the show and you're like,

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Speaker 1: what's up, buddy, I'm seeing you in a while, but

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Speaker 1: you're really not friends, like not acquaintance, it's friends, Like

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Speaker 1: we're all friends. I would have considered us to be

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Speaker 1: right there at that level. And about a month before

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Speaker 1: I get a call from this person's manager, which is weird.

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Speaker 1: And my manager gets a call from this person's manager,

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Speaker 1: which is weird because I know the person, like I've

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Speaker 1: spent significant personal time with the person, and they go, hey,

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Speaker 1: they got to back out of the event. They have

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Speaker 1: to have like to vocal Cord surgery, and I'm like, dang,

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Speaker 1: that sucks. My initial reaction is, thing, that sucks because

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Speaker 1: anytime you gotta have any surgery, that's not fortunate. Secondly,

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Speaker 1: if you're a singer and you have to have vocal

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Speaker 1: cord surgery, that has got to be scary as crap.

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Speaker 1: But I remember thinking, why didn't this person who's my

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Speaker 1: friend called me to tell me, because I know they're

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Speaker 1: still talking. I just I had seen them on social

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Speaker 1: media that day, and again I really felt like this

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Speaker 1: was a friend, So I thought it was weird that

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Speaker 1: the manager called me. By the way, if you have

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Speaker 1: to like get out of something for any reason, if

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Speaker 1: it's like a personal reason, a health reason, I don't

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Speaker 1: can just just say it. If your grandma sick, no problem. Also, well,

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Speaker 1: it's not my charity event, so just like, be for

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Speaker 1: real about it. I guess my whole point to this

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Speaker 1: is I hate when people aren't for real about stuff,

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Speaker 1: and so I'm like, okay, man, that sucks for them,

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Speaker 1: first of all, and second of all for this charity

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Speaker 1: event that I am co headlining, because I was doing

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Speaker 1: stand up there doing music, and so there's just a

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Speaker 1: few weeks left and I have to call the charity.

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Speaker 1: I had to call the charity and be like, hey,

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Speaker 1: this person is not doing this anymore, and so like,

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Speaker 1: so we had to find somebody new, and they ended

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Speaker 1: up having to pay a pretty significant amount of money

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Speaker 1: to get another person. And that's money that we're gone

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Speaker 1: to the charity. But because it was so last minute,

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Speaker 1: they had to pay a bunch and that sucked for them.

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Speaker 1: It didn't suck for me because whatever. And then I

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Speaker 1: find out the story changes from vocal cord surgery to

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Speaker 1: they needed to be on vocal rest. Same thing. Had

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Speaker 1: you just called and said that from the beginning, I

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Speaker 1: think that I'd been like, oh, I totally get it,

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Speaker 1: Like you can't play in a charity celebrity softball game

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Speaker 1: if your elbow if you elbow rest, because you've heard it,

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Speaker 1: do it. They're just common sense things, So you could

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Speaker 1: have said that. But it started with surgery. And then

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Speaker 1: they didn't call me. So I was pissed that the

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Speaker 1: person didn't call me. I was like why, And so

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Speaker 1: after I shared my frustration of especially when I found

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Speaker 1: out they didn't even need vocal rest, they were then

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Speaker 1: on a television show after that and they had no surgery,

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Speaker 1: I don't really quite know why they wanted out of

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Speaker 1: the event, but they were so dishonest about everything that

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Speaker 1: I thought, I don't really the kind of person that

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Speaker 1: I want to have in my life and I haven't

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Speaker 1: really spoken to him in like two years, and as

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Speaker 1: I say.

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Speaker 2: That out loud, I don't love it.

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Speaker 1: And I did get a call way after the fact,

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Speaker 1: but it was only after the fact that I was

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Speaker 1: like so irritated that they were so dishonest. Wan it

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Speaker 1: was surgery, then it was vocal rest, and then they

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Speaker 1: need vocal rest, but they're still going to go and

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Speaker 1: do a television It wasn't even my charity. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: my money. I had to pay for the extra person.

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Speaker 1: It was just weird. They didn't call me, So the

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Speaker 1: shadiness of it all felt weird and so negative that

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Speaker 1: I thought, if they can do this at this point,

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Speaker 1: they can also do this at a different point. So

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go ahead and I'm going to relax them

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Speaker 1: from my friendship group. And by the way, I don't

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Speaker 1: have a big friendship group. I really don't do anything.

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Speaker 2: I work.

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Speaker 1: I got like four people I hang out with and

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Speaker 1: all good, so they're not missing me in their life.

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Speaker 1: I'm not missing them in their life. But when it

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Speaker 1: comes to like shadiness, I don't have any room for it.

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Speaker 1: When it comes to drama, I don't have any room

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Speaker 1: for it, oh especially drama. I'm not a dramatic person.

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Speaker 1: This town is the most dramatic town too. It is.

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Speaker 1: It's easy to say it's so fake, but it's just

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Speaker 1: like high school. If I cared about having friends in

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Speaker 1: the artist community, I think I'd probably stay irritated and

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Speaker 1: upset about it. But it is so clicky, and it's

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Speaker 1: groups that want it to be known that other people

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Speaker 1: can't be in their group, and it's like artists and wives.

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Speaker 1: And it's kind of funny to watch from the outside,

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Speaker 1: especially when you see like pictures being posted on social

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Speaker 1: media because you know these people and you know why

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Speaker 1: they're doing it. But I think back in high school

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Speaker 1: it bothered me because I wasn't cool. Now I kind

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Speaker 1: am glad I'm not cool because I don't really have

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Speaker 1: an interest to be parts of some of these things.

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Speaker 1: And I hope wherever you live, I know this is

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Speaker 1: happening too. It's not just a Nashville thing. I think

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Speaker 1: this is every in Nashville is not a small town,

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Speaker 1: but the music, the performer community is a pretty small

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Speaker 1: community here and it happens here too, So just know

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Speaker 1: that it happens here too. So yeah, that's what's up.

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Speaker 1: That's the check in here. I think. Now we're going

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Speaker 1: to get over to the interview that I did with

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Speaker 1: Jeff Pearl and we talk about Tupac. He wrote a

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Speaker 1: Tupac book. It's very interesting, even if you're not really

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Speaker 1: a Tupac fan. I think it's interesting to hear the

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Speaker 1: stories about it he has written. I think it had

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Speaker 1: ten number one best sellers. So we're gonna get to that.

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Speaker 1: I'm hoping you're not hearing all the text messages come

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Speaker 1: through my computer as I've been recording this. This has

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Speaker 1: been a trial run. And thank you everybody, and I

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Speaker 1: will talk to you on the other side of this.

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Speaker 3: Let's take a quick pause for a message from our sponsor,

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Speaker 3: and we're back on the Bobby Cast.

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Speaker 1: All we have Jeff Peerlman on with us, who wrote

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Speaker 1: a book about Tupac. Only God can judge me the

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Speaker 1: many lies of Tupac Shakur. I think, as a performer myself,

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Speaker 1: it's all rooted in absolute, deep insecurity. I do not

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Speaker 1: look at Tupac from back when I would.

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Speaker 2: Listen to Tupac.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess I do occasionally now, But for

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Speaker 1: the most part I didn't look at him as a

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Speaker 1: super insecure guy, Like, what did you learn about him

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Speaker 1: in that element as a performer? Was its rooted in

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Speaker 1: insecurity at all?

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Speaker 4: I think it was based more on insecurity brought forth

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Speaker 4: by abject poverty, by his mother's addiction to crack, by

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Speaker 4: spending hit much of his days, living in his youth

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Speaker 4: in Baltimore, with rats skirring up and down the base boards,

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Speaker 4: showing up at school in thrift store clothing, having bad teeth,

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Speaker 4: not smelling good, girls not being interested in him. Like

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Speaker 4: this background of rejection, poverty, sort of embarrassment, shame, I

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Speaker 4: think fueled a lot of what he was for good

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Speaker 4: and probably for bad too.

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Speaker 1: I found that with people that come from not a

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Speaker 1: lot I would even include myself a bit there is

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Speaker 1: that there are two ways to go. One like you

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Speaker 1: want to prove everybody wrong, and so you're gonna stop

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Speaker 1: at nothing until you do, or what's you know? Actually

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Speaker 1: a lot easier to do is just fall into it

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Speaker 1: and fall into that same system.

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Speaker 2: What was Tupac's relationship with those choices.

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Speaker 4: Oh, you know. So he grew up in New York,

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Speaker 4: moved to Baltimore. He spent his freshman year Dunbar High School.

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Speaker 4: Then found out about the school, the Baltimore School for

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Speaker 4: Performing Arts, and he had to audition, and Tupac had nothing.

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Speaker 4: He wore two pairs of pants. He would rotate his pants.

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Speaker 4: He wear the same crappy thrift store shoes. Everything about

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Speaker 4: him was poor and sad and small. He was small

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Speaker 4: and kind of spinely. And he shows up for this

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Speaker 4: audition and he just knows he's going to nail it,

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Speaker 4: Like he knows. He doesn't think he's going to nail it.

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Speaker 4: He knows he's going to nail it. And he walks

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Speaker 4: into the grand ballroom of the Baltimore School for the

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Speaker 4: Arts and the four teachers are all sitting. There are

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Speaker 4: four white teachers, very stern, and he does a monologue

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Speaker 4: from Raising in the Sun, and the teachers when he's done,

404
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Speaker 4: stand up and applaud for him. And he gets a

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Speaker 4: spot in the School for the Arts. And he knew

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Speaker 4: he was going to like he was so driven, he

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Speaker 4: knew he was bigger than what surrounded him. He knew

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Speaker 4: he was more powerful, He knew he had this thing

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Speaker 4: in him like he always and I think everything going

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Speaker 4: on around him drove him to be bigger. It was

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Speaker 4: almost like this thing maybe you've gone through yourself. You

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Speaker 4: people don't understand what you have in me, Like you

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Speaker 4: don't see it, but I see it, you know. Like

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Speaker 4: he showed up and he's on the stage and he

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Speaker 4: knew it. He just knew it. And I think that

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Speaker 4: was all driven from what he came from.

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Speaker 1: Was there anything around him that led him to believe

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Speaker 1: that there is a reality and performance. He was on

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Speaker 1: the East Coast, so hey, you know, you're kind of

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Speaker 1: close to New York. Hey, like, how did he know

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Speaker 1: if it wasn't a tangible thing?

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Speaker 4: Well, it kind of was. So he was in a

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Speaker 4: theater company in New York before he moved to Baltimore

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Speaker 4: as a young team and he actually performed at the

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Speaker 4: Apollo Theater at a Jesse Jackson presidential fundraiser in nineteen

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Speaker 4: eighty four in a Raisin in the Sun, and he

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Speaker 4: had this moment. He was the first person on stage

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Speaker 4: for the performance. He's in the Apollo Theater. It's filled

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Speaker 4: with people, Jesse Jackson is there, and it's this moment

430
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 4: where everything is quiet and you look out and they're

431
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,359
Speaker 4: all looking at you. And I do think there's something really,

432
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 4: really profoundly true about people who always feel ignored and

433
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,440
Speaker 4: underappreciated having everyone look at you and have the focus

434
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 4: on you and you feel seen. So I would say

435
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,400
Speaker 4: that moment in particular was a real jolt to him

436
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:21,159
Speaker 4: becoming what he became.

437
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 1: And again just getting into like the fundamental parts of

438
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,399
Speaker 1: him as a performer. I've found that a lot of

439
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 1: performers are in essence searching for love because they didn't

440
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 1: get it at one point in their life, and that,

441
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 1: you know, performing on a stage, performing behind a microphone,

442
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 1: like you're searching for adulation, for love to compensate for

443
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 1: what you did not have growing up. And I think

444
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,119
Speaker 1: that's what you're saying. Would that be kind of the

445
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 1: reason he did any performance at all?

446
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 4: I think so. I mean, it's really interesting his mom

447
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 4: of Fanny Shakur was a very famous black panther represented

448
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 4: herself in the famous Panther twenty one Child when she

449
00:22:54,880 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 4: was pregnant with Tupac. Was his civil rights icon. She

450
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,639
Speaker 4: was his hero, his absolute hero, and then she became

451
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 4: an addict, and he's watching this woman he loves also

452
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 4: fall off into a state of disrepair. And all he

453
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 4: wants is something in his life that feels real and positive.

454
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 4: And the thing he gets is attention. His whole life.

455
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 4: The one thing everyone who knew Tupac from the beginning

456
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 4: to end fed Tupac more than love, more than money,

457
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,919
Speaker 4: more than cars, was attention, being looked at, being seen,

458
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,639
Speaker 4: being heard. I think that's a really powerful driver for

459
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 4: a lot of athletes I've written about. I'm sure for

460
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 4: a lot of musicians and people you've interviewed as well.

461
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 4: This need to be seen and heard. And I think

462
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 4: he was a guy who has ignored much as a child,

463
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 4: and all of a sudden people are lavishing attention on him.

464
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 2: Then when did it turn to hip hop? When did

465
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 2: it turn to I can be a rapper?

466
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 4: I mean he started he started rapping when he was

467
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 4: in New York on the stoop in the Bronx, like

468
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 4: his mom, his aunt Glee. All these people would go

469
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 4: be upstairs in the apartment smoking weed and talking, and

470
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 4: all the kids would be on the stoop and they're

471
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 4: all listening. This is in the Bronx in New York

472
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 4: City in the nineteen eighties. They're all listening to Curtis

473
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 4: blow Houdini, you know, Sugar Hill Gang Run DMC, and

474
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 4: he's just rapping on the steps. And he moves to

475
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 4: Baltimore and he teams up with a guy named Mouse

476
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,399
Speaker 4: and they start wrapping and they form a little rap

477
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 4: group and he has his moment, this great, great moment.

478
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 4: He's a student in Baltimore and there's a concert coming

479
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 4: to the Baltimore Arena including Salt and Pepper, and Salt

480
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 4: and Pepper's manager is Herbie Lovebug, and they go to

481
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 4: the show. It's Salt and Pepper and it's heavy Dan,

482
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 4: it's different performers, and they know the performers are all

483
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 4: staying at a comfort inn the other days in near

484
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 4: the Baltimore Arena. Before the show ends, they decide they're

485
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 4: going to go to the days in and show Herbie

486
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 4: love On what they could Bug, what they could do.

487
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,399
Speaker 4: So they rush and they see him walking in and

488
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 4: Tupac walks up to him. It's a teenager, hasn't done

489
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 4: anything bad, haircut, shitty, crappy clothesxcuse me, and he's like, yo, Herbie, Herbie,

490
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 4: this is my crew. Can you do you want to

491
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:05,239
Speaker 4: hear us sing? Do you want to hear us rap?

492
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 4: Blah blah blah. He's like, yeah, okay, and he's like

493
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 4: He's like, but I got to go up and he

494
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 4: never came back down right, And Tubac is waiting and

495
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,640
Speaker 4: waiting and waiting, his game, more mad and more mad,

496
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 4: and finally he's like, we're going upstairs. And they spend

497
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 4: the night hanging out with the rappers outside their room.

498
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 4: Like he just had that audacity about him. You're gonna

499
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 4: hear me. Someone's gonna hear me. So throughout Baltimore he's rapping,

500
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 4: and then he moves to Marin City and that's where

501
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 4: it takes off in California.

502
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 1: When you do a book like this, obviously you want

503
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 1: to talk to the people that knew Tupac and the

504
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 1: people that knew the people that knew Tupac. But when

505
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 1: you start, how many people do you think you're going

506
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,719
Speaker 1: to have to interview? And does that list expand as

507
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: you're going I.

508
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 4: Usually consider you got to go at least four hundred

509
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 4: on a biography. To me, in my mind, if you

510
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 4: don't clear four hundred people, I interviewed six hundred and

511
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 4: fifty two for this book. So it was, it was

512
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 4: deep and I got. I had extensive time with his sister,

513
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 4: with the people who formed him along the way as

514
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:04,640
Speaker 4: different managers, performers. I had a moment, like the greatest

515
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 4: reporting moment in my career came out of this book.

516
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 4: It's a story. If you want to tell it.

517
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 2: Not yeah, no, tell please do okay?

518
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 4: So do you know the song Brenda's Got a Baby?

519
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 2: I do okay.

520
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 4: Tubac is filming Juice in New York City. It's nineteen

521
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 4: ninety and every day when he was growing up, he

522
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 4: would read the New York Times. His mom would read

523
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 4: him the newspaper. It was very important to her that

524
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 4: he knew what was going on. So every day, while

525
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 4: filming Juice in New York, they would bring a pa

526
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 4: would bring him a copy of the New York Daily News.

527
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 4: And one day there's an article and it's Cries in

528
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 4: the Night and it's about a twelve year old girl

529
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 4: who was raped by a cousin, delivered the baby without

530
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 4: anyone knowing she was pregnant on the bathroom floor, wrap

531
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 4: the baby up in an odd job bag plastic bag,

532
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 4: threw the baby down the trash chute, and that was

533
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 4: the inspiration. Tubac reads this article, says to omar Aps,

534
00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 4: I gotta go in my trailer. I gotta go in

535
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 4: my trailer, sits in his trailer, writes the words to

536
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 4: Brenda's got a baby, Brenda's got a baby, Brenda's barely

537
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,120
Speaker 4: got a brain. The damn Shane, the girl cam Harley

538
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 4: spo her name. So this song is his first big song.

539
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 4: And I decided I really wanted to find the baby

540
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 4: who's thrown down the trash heap all those years ago,

541
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 4: who inspired this song. And I work with a genealogist

542
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 4: named Michelle Sooley who's just incredible, and I told her

543
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 4: about this and one day she's like, I think I

544
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 4: have a number for this guy. His name's Devon. I

545
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 4: text because no one answers their phones. I text this

546
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,959
Speaker 4: guy Devon and I'm like, hey, by any chance is

547
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 4: this you? And I tatched the article. My name's Jeff pearlme.

548
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 4: He writes me back. He's like, he's like, call me tomorrow.

549
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 4: Long story. I go to Las Vegas. He lives in

550
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,360
Speaker 4: Las Vegas. He's thirty three years old.

551
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 2: Now.

552
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 4: He was the baby at the time. He was the

553
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 4: baby who's thrown down the trash sheep by Tupac. I'm

554
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 4: talking with him about it. Amazing story. Basically, he was

555
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 4: adopted after he's thrown down the trash sheep. His uh,

556
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 4: his parents moved to Las Vegas. They died. An ancestry

557
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 4: dot com search is not that long ago. All these

558
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,360
Speaker 4: tentacles point back to the Noble Dura Lei housing projects

559
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 4: in Brooklyn. He reaches out to different relatives. They're like,

560
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 4: we've been looking for you for years. We didn't know

561
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,880
Speaker 4: what happened to you. Also, are you a fan of Tupac?

562
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 4: He's like, I love Tupac. They're like, do you know

563
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 4: the song Brenda's Got a Baby? Of course I know

564
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 4: the song Brendon's Got a Baby. We think you're the

565
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 4: baby and Brenda's got a baby. He flies back to

566
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,479
Speaker 4: the housing projects where he was born. They show him

567
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 4: the shoot where his mom threw him down. He poses

568
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 4: with it. He meets all these relatives. It's this beautiful moment.

569
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 4: He hasn't seen his mom in the gazillion years, Like

570
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 4: shortly after he was born. We decide we have to

571
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 4: find the mom. My genealogist Michelle Solely thinks she has

572
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 4: a number. She calls this woman. She goes, is this Janine,

573
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 4: I'm using a fake name. She goes, is this Janine?

574
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 4: She says, yeah, did you have a baby when you

575
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 4: were twelve years old? The woman starts screaming, do you

576
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 4: know where my baby is? Do you know where my

577
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 4: baby is? She goes, well, my name is Michelle, I'm

578
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 4: a genealogist. Jepher. Oh my god, do you know where

579
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 4: my baby is? She's screaming and crying. Michelle says, I mean.

580
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 4: The woman says, I need to I need to take

581
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 4: care of that. She goes, I live in Newark, New Jersey.

582
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 4: But I'm I'm I'm away because I'm going to see

583
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 4: the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And Michelle says, where are

584
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 4: the Chili Pepper's playing? And she said in Las Vegas.

585
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 4: She goes, your son lives in Vegas. They met that night.

586
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 5: Wow, the Bobby cast will be right back. This is

587
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 5: the Bobby Cast.

588
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,959
Speaker 1: So how does that make you feel this as a person, like,

589
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: aside from the book, aside from what we're talking about here,

590
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: Like that's like like fundamentally shifting. That's one of those

591
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: events for them and probably for you as well.

592
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 4: It gives me chills even telling that story right now,

593
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 4: having told it several times already, you know, to my

594
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 4: relatives and friends. It's an amazing feeling. It's fantastic. It's

595
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 4: one of the best. It's the best fine I've ever

596
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 4: been a part of in my career by far Man.

597
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 2: I don't questions about that, like, how did the meeting go?

598
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 4: It was great, It was beautiful at first. In fact,

599
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 4: she showed up and she hadn't seen the baby. She

600
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 4: hadn't seen her son in years and years. She had

601
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 4: visitation for a brief period of time after he was

602
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 4: born where she was able to see him, and that

603
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 4: was it. And she shows up and when they were

604
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 4: in the house after she gave birth, they found her,

605
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 4: brought her to the hospital, brought the baby to the hospital.

606
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 4: They let her hold the baby and named the baby,

607
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 4: and she actually named the baby Devan. She gave him

608
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 4: his first name, and the adoptive parents kept the name.

609
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 4: She shows up. They met in a casino in Vegas

610
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 4: in a lobby, and she has his name tattooed on

611
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 4: his arm, on her arm because she had just always

612
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 4: been thinking about him from years and years ago, from

613
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 4: decades ago. She tattooed his name on her arm and

614
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 4: they're just hugging and crying and they talked through the night.

615
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 2: Wow, that's crazy.

616
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 1: I mean, if that is what comes of the book, like,

617
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: that's a lot onegree Wow.

618
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

619
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: So as far as Tupac goes, you know, everybody thinks

620
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: about him as being a West Coast guy, which isn't

621
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: I've known that that's not where he grew up, but

622
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: that's where he became the Tupac that we know.

623
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 2: Did Tupac consider himself a West Coast guy?

624
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, he definitely did. Over time. He did. He basically

625
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 4: when before his senior year of high school, he went

626
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 4: two years at school for the Arts in Baltimore and

627
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 4: he moves to Marin City and he's very upset about it.

628
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 4: And Marin City he lives in a it's called the

629
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 4: jungle and he basically lives in public housing in Marin City.

630
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 4: His mom dives heavy duty in the crack and while there,

631
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 4: Tupac moves in with the kid his aige named Demetri Striplan,

632
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 4: who's a DJ and just a nice guy who takes

633
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 4: him in. And during that time period, Tupac is writing

634
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 4: raps non stop, and he's listening to Too Short and

635
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 4: Ant Banks and all these Bay Area rappers and he's

636
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 4: absorbing it. But he has a moment. Near where he lives,

637
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 4: they would have these rap battles, and he gets his

638
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 4: ass kicked in a wrap battle one day by this

639
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 4: guy named Tack who's like thirteen year old rapper, and

640
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 4: he's just demolishes Tupac. Tubac goes back to the apartment

641
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 4: and he's devastated and he vanishes for a week. For

642
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 4: one week, nobody sees Tupac, And basically he spent the

643
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 4: week hanging out with the biggest crack dealer in Marin City,

644
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 4: and he asks a guy if he could follow him around.

645
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 4: His name was Bobby Burton, if you could follow him

646
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 4: around and just take notes about what it is to

647
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 4: deal crack and to be a gangbanger and to be

648
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 4: a badass in the inner city. And he comes back

649
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 4: and he has a song written called All in the

650
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 4: Days of a Criminal and he wraps it for his

651
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 4: roommates immediately and they're like, WHOA. And it really did

652
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 4: show the guy was a student. And I actually it's

653
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 4: one of the joys of this book, was I spent

654
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 4: a lot of time with the old crack dealers of

655
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 4: Marin City, and like, I went to a diner with

656
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 4: Bobby Burton and his grandson, and this guy was the

657
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 4: most terrified, terrifying crack dealer in Marin City. We're sitting

658
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 4: there eating eggs with his grandson and there's a very

659
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 4: full circle kind of moment for me as a reporter.

660
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: I'm assuming the grandson doesn't know his granddad as that

661
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: criik dealer.

662
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 4: Now, there was a lot of like this. It's a

663
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 4: lot of like, all right, don't listen over that. You

664
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 4: go over there for a minute. Great guy though, the

665
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 4: guy was awesome, he was delightful.

666
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you interview six hundred and fifty plus people

667
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: and they give you stories that well are exactly the opposite,

668
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: how do you deal with that.

669
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 4: It's a lot of cross checking. It's a lot of

670
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 4: triple checking. It's also a lot of who has a

671
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 4: history of being a reliable subject, who might exaggerate one

672
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 4: thing that I have found with Tupac. I'm sure you've

673
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 4: seen it also with celebrity young deaths. As the years pass,

674
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 4: people who weren't that close that person suddenly are amazing

675
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 4: to close that person. People who had five minutes with

676
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 4: that person spent hours with that person. So it is

677
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 4: a lot of like checking and rechecking and double checking

678
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 4: and just making sure someone says, no, this is a

679
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 4: person you can trust, A trustworthy person. Telling you someone

680
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 4: is trustworthy goes a long way.

681
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,239
Speaker 1: What about the development of truth into like hyperbole and

682
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: not for any other reason than time.

683
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 2: That has to happen too, right, of.

684
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 4: Course, And the truth of the matter is biography is

685
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 4: a flawed medium to a small degree. Right, my book

686
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 4: before this was about bo Jackson. Most of what bo

687
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 4: Jackson did athletically wasn't recorded. You know, he was timed

688
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,839
Speaker 4: running a four to one three forty. I can see

689
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 4: the notation for the four one three forty in the

690
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 4: Auburn log. Do I know for a one million trillion

691
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 4: percent fact that it wasn't for two three forty. I

692
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 4: don't like. Part of this is believing what is written

693
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 4: and believing stories that are reputable. It's a flawed there's

694
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 4: no doubt. The other flaw of biography is you can't

695
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 4: be in the person's head. So Tubac is walking down

696
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 4: the street, Tubac is in the MGM grand and he

697
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 4: sees Orlando Anderson and he goes punch him. I'm thinking

698
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 4: he's probably thinking, oh, crap, I gotta punch this guy.

699
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 4: Before I know he's thinking about the Jets quarterback situation.

700
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 4: You know, you can't know. You can't be in someone's head.

701
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 4: It's the hardest part of biography by far as you

702
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 4: can't be in someone's head.

703
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: I would think too, when you are writing a story

704
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 1: on a dead legend, which is what Tubac is, you

705
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: want to make sure you get the good, the bad,

706
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 1: the middle, the background all. But when it's something uncomfortable,

707
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 1: like a rape accusation, like how did you deal with that?

708
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 4: I had something I haven't even talked about this yet,

709
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 4: but you know it's in the book. I found all right,

710
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 4: So the rape accusation was obviously tough, and I reported

711
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 4: it and reported it and reported it, and I found

712
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 4: people who were around there and different people. But the

713
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 4: interesting thing is, four months before that happened, another woman

714
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 4: accused Chupac of rape. It's never been reported before. And

715
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 4: I found the police reports that were filed, and it

716
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 4: happened at a club in LA who was a woman

717
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 4: who was celebrating her twenty first birthday. I found a

718
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 4: adacted police report and then an unadapted police report. So

719
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 4: I had all the names and I found this woman

720
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 4: and she basically she needed a ride hunt. She was

721
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 4: twenty one. She was out a club in LA. She

722
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 4: was out with her friends. Her friends kind of ditched her.

723
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,879
Speaker 4: She had been talking with Tupac and his crew. They

724
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 4: offered her a ride home. She was staying with her boyfriend,

725
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 4: who was a football player at USC. They instead of

726
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 4: going home, according to her, tupocs like, we got to

727
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 4: stop at the house real quick. He at a house

728
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 4: not far far away, she said. According to her, she said,

729
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 4: just come in for a minute, Just come in. He

730
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 4: goes in. She said he had a gun on his

731
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:29,399
Speaker 4: on his bookshelf, and said he raped her. And then

732
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 4: he said one of his friends drove her home and

733
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 4: also forced her to have sex. So she I got

734
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 4: this police report, and I know I have to try

735
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 4: to talk to this woman, right, And this was four

736
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 4: months before the incident at Nell's in New York City

737
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 4: involving Aana Jackson, four months before I have this police report.

738
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 4: I'm writing a biography. I know for a fact Tupac

739
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 4: fans do not want to read this, right If you're

740
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 4: a Tupac fan, you understandably want to believe that Tupac

741
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 4: wudn't have done such a thing, was innocent there. But

742
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 4: I feel responsibility to biography more than I respond feel

743
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 4: responsibility to pleasing fans and selling books, if that makes sense.

744
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 4: I have this police sport, I have the name. I

745
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 4: find the woman. I reach out to her. At first,

746
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 4: she tells me it's all true, but she's like, I

747
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 4: don't want to talk about it. And when I found

748
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 4: the I found a few months later, I reached out

749
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 4: to her again and I said, I'm just curious. Do

750
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 4: you have any interest in seeing the police report? Like

751
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 4: do you want to see it? And she said, yeah,

752
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 4: actually I do, And I sent it to her and

753
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 4: she called me back and she's like, Okay, I want

754
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 4: to talk to you because this is making me really mad.

755
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 4: And basically what happened is everything she said she swore

756
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 4: happened all these years later, Anonymous she had no reason

757
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 4: to lie or not, like, there was no incentive for

758
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 4: her to lie. She's a fifty year old woman now

759
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 4: living not at in California. But she said after she

760
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 4: filed the report, the officer who is going to decide

761
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,439
Speaker 4: whether to go The detective was going to decide whether

762
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 4: to follow through with the with the charges, said why

763
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 4: didn't you run away when you had a chance to

764
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 4: run away? And she's like, I was drunk and scared,

765
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 4: and they're basically like, no, you had a chance to

766
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,439
Speaker 4: run away, and you didn't run away, and they didn't

767
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 4: pursue it. And she was so mad relivering that that

768
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 4: she talked to me at length about it. Now she

769
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 4: talked to me anonymously, which is fair because it's a

770
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 4: rape case. So that's knowing that he had a very

771
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 4: similar intent. There are a lot of parallels between what

772
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,760
Speaker 4: happened to this woman in la what happened to Tayana

773
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 4: Jackson in New York. So that's a big part of

774
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 4: the reporting of it.

775
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: I would think that the human nature part of writing

776
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: a biography would be and I'm glad you spoke on that,

777
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 1: feeling like you have an allegiance to the biography more

778
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: than the fans of Tupac, that if you're writing about Tupac,

779
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: you want his fans to buy the book. So I'm

780
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:47,879
Speaker 1: sure that there's a part of you that's like, man,

781
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,359
Speaker 1: if I just don't write about this I think more

782
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 1: people want to buy the book because it's just a

783
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 1: glowing part of Tupac. I mean, is that an internal

784
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 1: struggle that a writer like yourself have to deal with?

785
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 4: And it is not, but I understand why it would be.

786
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 4: I just long ago starting at the University of Delaware

787
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 4: and as a news writer at the Nashville Tennessee and like,

788
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 4: that's not how I think, you know, like probably maybe

789
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 4: to my own financial detriment. I just don't think, Oh man,

790
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 4: I have to this is going to be Tupac fans

791
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 4: are going to love this. I mean, like, I want

792
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 4: a historic record of Tupac. The goal is always and

793
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 4: I'm not saying it's always achieved. The goal is someone

794
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 4: reads your Tupac book and they say, well, there's no

795
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,439
Speaker 4: other reason to write a Tupac book, Like what, There's

796
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 4: nothing more, there's no other reason to write a Tupac work.

797
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 4: And I'm not saying that's real, but that's kind of

798
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 4: your goal, and I can't. It's not. I'm not a

799
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 4: fan writer. I'm not writing for Team Beat or Boppa

800
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 4: or whatever it would be in twenty twenty five, and

801
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 4: just not that guy. So it is what it is.

802
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 2: You're a white guy writing about hip hop artist. I

803
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 2: don't know that's that's weird.

804
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 4: Hell yeah yeah. My agent, it's my first non sportsbook.

805
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 4: It's obviously my first hip hop book. Yeah, no doubt

806
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 4: about him. My agent was like, are you do you

807
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 4: really think? Do you think you're the guy to write

808
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 4: this book? And the truth of the matter is this

809
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 4: is weird with true. The writer Kevin Powell had on

810
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 4: his website four years next book at Tupac book right

811
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 4: for years, and I kind of just assumed Kevin Powell

812
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 4: was going to write this Tupac book and I was

813
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 4: just not going to write it. But he never did it.

814
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 4: And I wanted the book where six hundred and fifty

815
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 4: people were interviewed about Tupac. I didn't want the book

816
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 4: why Topac is the greatest rapper of all time? Or

817
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 4: Tupac and Me my wild Adventures, you know, Like, I

818
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 4: wanted the book about Tupac, so I just I know

819
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:32,839
Speaker 4: him white. I come from an outsider's view. I tried

820
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 4: to be honest about it and open about it and.

821
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 1: Do my best whenever I think about hip hop in

822
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 1: the nineties, even late eighties, two thousands, right, because I

823
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 1: was like my time, and I think about the rappers

824
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 1: that were I'd call the best culturally and also but

825
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: then the best like that sounded the best. Like for me,

826
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 1: it was always like Biggie always sounded the best, but

827
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 1: Tupac meant more to the culture.

828
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 2: And I grew up in not a white neighborhood, so.

829
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,760
Speaker 1: Never like Tupac sounds better than Biggie, but he says

830
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 1: more than Biggie, although Biggie did say a lot because

831
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 1: Biggie had stories too, right, Like he's he's doing his

832
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 1: he's doing his thing East Coast. Uh, what are your

833
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:12,720
Speaker 1: thoughts on my possibly incorrect narrative?

834
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 4: All right, I think Shakgi from Digital Underground said it perfectly.

835
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,879
Speaker 4: He has passed away, but when he was live, he said,

836
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 4: a lot of rappers rap. I'm gonna paraphrase. It's a

837
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:25,879
Speaker 4: lot of rappers wrap from the news. Some rappers wrap

838
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 4: from the lips, some rappers wrap from the throat, he said.

839
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 4: Tupac rap from the stomach where it was guttural, you know.

840
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,399
Speaker 4: And the other only other rapper, really great rapper who

841
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 4: could compare to that is DMX where it's like you

842
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 4: feel it and you feel every word and There's a

843
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 4: song Tupac Haa has. It's probably my favorite Tupac song.

844
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 4: It's called Shorty Want to Be a Thug. It's just

845
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 4: about a sixteen year old kid who's trying to, you know, gangbanger,

846
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 4: and you just feel every word of it, like you

847
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 4: feel every word of it. And I think about rappers

848
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 4: from who came up alongside Tupac. Biggie was a great rapper.

849
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 4: He was a brilliant, brilliant lyricist. His delivery was flawless,

850
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,240
Speaker 4: it was beautiful, it was almost symphonic, and how beautiful

851
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 4: his rapping was, but it wasn't guttural, you know. And

852
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,240
Speaker 4: I feel like with Tupac he was able to relate

853
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,760
Speaker 4: to people and make people feel what he was saying,

854
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 4: not just by the words which were powerful, but by

855
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 4: the way he said it. I think he was very

856
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 4: unique in that regard.

857
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 1: And the reason that I compared the two obviously is

858
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 1: because the whole East West Coast and how that tragically ended,

859
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 1: how much of that started as wrestling and ended real

860
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: or was it all real?

861
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 4: Well, it started at Quad Studios and Tupac is going

862
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 4: to Quad Studios and to put Tubac is on try

863
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 4: on New York and at the same time, an artist

864
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 4: named Little Sean is releasing, is putting together an album,

865
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 4: and Tubac needs money. You know, Tubac died very he

866
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 4: had less than two hundred thousand dollars in his bank

867
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 4: account when he died, like he did not have a

868
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 4: lot of money. And he has the legal fees and

869
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 4: everything's mounting, and he's going to go to Quad Studios

870
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 4: and record a track for Little Sean and he's getting paid.

871
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 4: This is crazy. Seven thousand dollars, that's how much Tupac

872
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 4: was going to Quad Studios to do a track for

873
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 4: some guy, Little Sean. So he he's going there and

874
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 4: he pulls up and he gets out, and you know,

875
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,240
Speaker 4: he's he's he's in the lobby and he gets shot

876
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 4: and he gets he gets robbed, and he gets shot,

877
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 4: and he goes upstairs and there's Biggie and there's a

878
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 4: little CS. He was down in the elevator and these

879
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 4: guys are there, and Tupac at that moment, forever more

880
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 4: believes that either Biggie was directly responsible for it or

881
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 4: if nothing else, I'm in New York City, this is

882
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 4: your city. How could you in this building? How could

883
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,839
Speaker 4: you not know. And I interviewed a lot of guys

884
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 4: who are in prison with Tupac at Clinton, and he

885
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 4: did not let that go. He held that tight Biggie

886
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,280
Speaker 4: did this. I know Biggie did this, That m Effort

887
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 4: did this. He wrote lyrics about it. He was so

888
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 4: angry about it, irrationally so that when he got out

889
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 4: and then he writes hit him up obviously, and it

890
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 4: just inflames everything. So I don't think Biggie tried visiting

891
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 4: Teubac in the hospital. He tried visiting him again at Clinton.

892
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 4: Literally called his manager Watani and said, can I want

893
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 4: to go visit Pac? And Tubac said, no, I'm not

894
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 4: seeing that guy. I think Biggie was dumb founded the

895
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 4: whole time. Why am I getting blamed for all this?

896
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:27,320
Speaker 4: But Tupac saw it as a certainty.

897
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 2: Then okay, let's just say it wasn't Biggie. Who do

898
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 2: we think it was? Puffy?

899
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,439
Speaker 4: I mean, most of the eyes point to Haitian Jack,

900
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 4: who took Tupac kind of under his wing. He was

901
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 4: actually Tupac's amuse for above the rim when he played Birdie.

902
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 4: And then they started having this growing divide and Tubac

903
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 4: started calling him out as a hanger on. There's a lot,

904
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 4: but there's no certainty. There is no certainty. I will

905
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:58,399
Speaker 4: say one thing that was interesting when I did find

906
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 4: for the book, Tupac was shot. It was always noted incorrectly.

907
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 4: He saw three times in the head, in the hand,

908
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 4: in the tesco as it went into his leg. And

909
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 4: for years there are always these rumors that that Tupac,

910
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,800
Speaker 4: that Tupac shot himself in the balls. And I found

911
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 4: a the first EMT to ever get to Tupac, and

912
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 4: he'd never been he'd never been interviewed before, and he's like, Wow,

913
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 4: how'd you find me? And I'm like, I don't know.

914
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,760
Speaker 4: I found him one. He was listening one little article

915
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 4: of this guy, and I tracked him down. The first

916
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 4: EMT to get to Tupac. He's sitting there in Quad studios.

917
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 4: The EMT comes up, he gets out, Tupac is there.

918
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 4: He's a bullet LODs in his head between the skin

919
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 4: and the skull. It was this closed from penetrating his

920
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 4: brain instead skin it was embedded in. The guy said

921
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 4: he never saw it like that before. It shot in

922
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:55,280
Speaker 4: the hand, and Tupac pulls down his trousers. He's wearing jeans, trousers,

923
00:45:55,320 --> 00:46:01,959
Speaker 4: jeans and his boxer briefs, and he's there's a there's

924
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 4: a hole in his testicle. But there's no entrance area, right,

925
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 4: there's no there's no gunpower residue, and there's no entrance

926
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 4: shot through the jeans or the underwear. And the guy

927
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 4: said to me he had to have shot himself in

928
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 4: the balls because he did have the gun here. He

929
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 4: used to carry his gun in the waistband. And there

930
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 4: was no entrance wound from outside, no entrance mark from outside.

931
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 4: So he's like, I've known for years that he shot

932
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 4: himself in the in the boss. And it was a

933
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 4: debate for years and years, and hip hop out of

934
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 4: two bak shoot himself, who shot Tupac blah blah blah,

935
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:36,760
Speaker 4: and the one was in the balls?

936
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 1: Okay, So if he got shot in the hit because

937
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: I hear a hand and then I heard balls, obviously

938
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 1: in the head.

939
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:44,359
Speaker 2: But if you get shot in the head, they're trying

940
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 2: to kill you.

941
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 1: If you get shot in the hand, in the balls

942
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:48,720
Speaker 1: only they're trying to scare or hurt you. When Tupac

943
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: was shot, were they trying to kill him?

944
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 4: I honestly don't know, I just don't know. You have

945
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:54,400
Speaker 4: to admit some times you don't know. I don't know

946
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 4: the intent because I don't know who shot him, Like

947
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:58,799
Speaker 4: I don't know who shot him, so I don't know.

948
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 4: I think they were trying, probably trying to rob him

949
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 4: and scare him, you know. And Tupac didn't just you know,

950
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 4: he didn't just cower, which you're supposed to do. He

951
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:08,839
Speaker 4: never did, so I don't know for sure.

952
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 1: Though.

953
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 3: Let's take a quick pause for a message from our sponsor,

954
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,280
Speaker 3: and we're back on the Bobby Cast.

955
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:25,800
Speaker 1: All the people that you've interviewed, I'm sure there's a

956
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 1: takeaway with each person, probably gives you perspective you've never had, because,

957
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 1: right you're basically getting as close inside of someone's life

958
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,240
Speaker 1: as you can get without actually being in their life.

959
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 1: What about studying Tupac like made you look at life

960
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: a bit different?

961
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 4: I mean, you were asked earlier about being a white writer,

962
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 4: and I think you you go into a subject and

963
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,360
Speaker 4: you think you understand a perspective and then you realize

964
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 4: you don't understand a perspective at all. And to me, truly,

965
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 4: obviously i've seen poverty. I've never been I've never lived

966
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 4: in poverty, but I've seen poverty in the different athletes

967
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 4: I've written about. I feel like Tupac's sister describing, literally

968
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 4: describing the sound of the rats scurring up and down

969
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:15,439
Speaker 4: the base board in their Baltimore rowhouse pad, digging into

970
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,280
Speaker 4: food and eating their food, and her saying how haunted

971
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 4: she was by that all these years later, I feel

972
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,839
Speaker 4: like that her describing the level of poverty that they

973
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 4: emerged from was deeper and more profound and more painful

974
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 4: than my experience writing about people who rise from impover's situations.

975
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 4: And I think it was important for me.

976
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 2: What is your feelings on Suge Knight after you finished

977
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:40,240
Speaker 2: the book on Tupac?

978
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 4: Terrible? Absolutely sug Knight to me, I put sug Knight

979
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 4: in a trio. If he were starting a do walk group,

980
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 4: it would be him, it'd be Don King, and it'd

981
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,799
Speaker 4: be Donald Trump. Guys who just take advantage of people taking.

982
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 4: You know, he goes to Clinton to bail Tupac out.

983
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 4: I'm going to bail you out. I think it was

984
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 4: one point six million bail. Tupac thinks this is money

985
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,720
Speaker 4: that Shug is giving him. It's not. It's advanced earnings,

986
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 4: and I'll tell you a great, truly great Sugar Night story,

987
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,280
Speaker 4: the emblematic two real quick emblematic Sugar Night Stories. Number one,

988
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 4: Tubac is filming Gang Related the movie with Jim Belushi.

989
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 4: One day, sug Knight shows up on set with a

990
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 4: car as a gift for Tupac, which he was prone

991
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 4: to do. He lavish him with gifts and material possessions

992
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 4: and he shows up and the whole crew is what.

993
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 4: They stop filming and yo, Pac, this is I just

994
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 4: want to thank you for all you're doing for the

995
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:32,879
Speaker 4: death Row family. This is amazing. Blah blah blah blah.

996
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 4: I want to give you this car, bro, this is

997
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:39,360
Speaker 4: for you. They hug, Sugar leaves. Tubac turns to the

998
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 4: assistant producer and says, this is mine, Like, what do

999
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 4: you mean? I don't own this. I don't own anything.

1000
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 4: Like all the cars I have, they're all least the

1001
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:52,760
Speaker 4: place I live least. I don't own anything. My entire

1002
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:57,320
Speaker 4: life is controlled. Number two. Tubac dies in Las Vegas

1003
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,399
Speaker 4: after the Mike Tyson Bruce seven to fight. Week later,

1004
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 4: the family Sugar is there in Vegas. He was obviously

1005
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:04,800
Speaker 4: driving the car. He's there kind of hanging around the family.

1006
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,760
Speaker 4: He promises the family he'll take care of Tupac's ashes.

1007
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:13,840
Speaker 4: Tupac is cremated. A couple of days later, a fed

1008
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 4: Ex delivery guy shows up where Tubac was living and

1009
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,919
Speaker 4: all the family congregated in LA with a cardboard fed

1010
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 4: X two day delivery box with Tupox ashes in it.

1011
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 4: That is how Suge Knight handled the delivery of Tupox ashes.

1012
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:31,399
Speaker 2: Dang, that does sound like a good dude at all.

1013
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 2: That's not the.

1014
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 4: Best He did played three games to play three games

1015
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 4: with the Los Angeles for playing Rams in nineteen eighty seven,

1016
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 4: which makes me smile.

1017
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 1: I always think when I hear of people that were

1018
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: just like real, like awful people, I always go back

1019
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 1: to what their origin stories are and what made them

1020
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 1: like what affected their lives in such a tragic way

1021
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 1: that made them so tragic. And I know you didn't

1022
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 1: write a book on sug Knight, but how did Sugar

1023
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: Knight become such an awful person?

1024
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 4: I dug a lot in the sug Knight. Sugar Knight

1025
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 4: is from Compton, grew up in a very stable household.

1026
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,360
Speaker 4: You know. His name is Marion Knight. His nickname is

1027
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 4: Shug because they said he looked like the sugar Bear

1028
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 4: from the Cereal box. So went from sugar Bear to

1029
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 4: shoog very good household. Played in the marching band, played

1030
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 4: drums in the marching band. High school football games, he

1031
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 4: played in the games halftime, He'd go and played drums

1032
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 4: in his football uniform in the marching band. Go back

1033
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 4: and play football. Went to El Camino College for years,

1034
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 4: was a Junior College All American as a defensive lineman.

1035
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 4: Goes to UNLV. While he's at UNLV, he starts doing

1036
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:32,799
Speaker 4: work on the strip as a bodyguard and kind of

1037
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:36,360
Speaker 4: likes it. Winds up going into the music business working

1038
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 4: for Dick Griffi for a while, and he works with

1039
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 4: Bobby Brown as a bodyguard for Bobby Brown, and he

1040
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 4: just I think the thing with him, Like I interviewed

1041
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 4: a lot of guys from Compton who grew up with Sugar,

1042
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,839
Speaker 4: and universally it wasn't that they liked or dislike Shugar,

1043
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 4: but they were like that guy wasn't a gangbanger. This

1044
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 4: one guy mob James James MacDonald, who grew up in

1045
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,360
Speaker 4: Compton with Shug, is like he had a quote I

1046
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 4: remember exactly. He was like Sugar wasn't wearing a bandana.

1047
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 4: Sugar wasn't Sugar wasn't carrying Sugarn. He was, like he said,

1048
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 4: he was soft as raw, blank of you know, val

1049
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:12,879
Speaker 4: like a you know, he was just but he want

1050
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 4: he was of Compton, but he wasn't of Compton. Like

1051
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 4: he wasn't He wasn't a crip. He wasn't carrying. He

1052
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 4: wasn't a blood. He wasn't carrying. But he built this

1053
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 4: image based on size, based on wanting to be a

1054
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 4: sort of mafioso figure in music. Having this image, you know,

1055
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:33,879
Speaker 4: death Row his his his line was you either either

1056
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 4: make it hit or you get hit. And one guy

1057
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:38,839
Speaker 4: he hired told me he's get hired by Sugar. Sugar

1058
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:42,959
Speaker 4: walks him to the window inside Death Row and he says,

1059
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 4: look out that window, and he goes, all right, he

1060
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:47,759
Speaker 4: goes just so you know, we don't fire guys who

1061
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 4: don't perform. We throw them out windows. And there's just

1062
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:53,760
Speaker 4: a million stories of sug Night making people neel naked,

1063
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 4: drink urine, making people neel naked, apologize, hitting people, punching people.

1064
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 4: They kept baseball bats in the closet, wasn't for a

1065
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 4: company picnic. He was to beat the crap out of people.

1066
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 4: He just went from seeing what it was to be

1067
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 4: tough to deciding I want to be tough.

1068
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 1: I just I just wonder where that inferiority conflict comes from,

1069
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: because again I look at every villain, even in movies

1070
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 1: or even like the worst people in real life, and go,

1071
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 1: there's something that triggered that. And I because I, for me,

1072
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 1: I don't believe unless there's some sort of chemical, hormonal

1073
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 1: thing that people are just born bad.

1074
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:29,399
Speaker 2: I think there's trauma. I think.

1075
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 1: And with Suge Knight, I've always, you know, wondered like

1076
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:33,359
Speaker 1: what about Shoe because I'd heard the story.

1077
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 2: I think I've seen a picture of him.

1078
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 1: Playing in the high school band in his uniform that

1079
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 1: I'm like, what made him? Because even the vanilla eye

1080
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 1: story that he tells about Suge Night hanging him off

1081
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:45,360
Speaker 1: the ledge, you know, lookause it's crazy. I know this

1082
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 1: is not a Suge Knight interview. I have two questions

1083
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:49,320
Speaker 1: the how did Tupac not have money?

1084
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:55,360
Speaker 4: Well, first of all, Harry all right, Well, a really

1085
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 4: telling part of this is he's in prison and the

1086
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 4: main woman who took care of him, who's one of

1087
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 4: the best people I've ever met is this woman, yasmine Fula,

1088
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 4: who was both his business manager, a former panther, kind

1089
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 4: of an aunt godmother like figure. And she would visit

1090
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 4: him every week in prison, and she would always come

1091
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:15,720
Speaker 4: with family requests. Right, your mom wants a new house,

1092
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 4: your cousin needs this, your other cousin needs this. And

1093
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 4: it's a classic tale of guy always coming from nothing

1094
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 4: and all of a sudden, always giving to everyone. Second

1095
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:29,800
Speaker 4: of all, he never made that much money Poetic Justice.

1096
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 4: Janet Jackson made two million. I think two BAC may

1097
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:33,840
Speaker 4: have made a hundred thousand. I remember the exact amount.

1098
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:36,840
Speaker 4: He was never, you know, juicy, he made seventeen thousand dollars.

1099
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 4: He was never in a huge movie All Eyes on Me.

1100
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 4: Death Row kept a ton of money and then was

1101
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 4: paying his legal bees, legal bills. You know, he had

1102
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:50,319
Speaker 4: legal fees out the butt NonStop. So like, he just

1103
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,120
Speaker 4: never had a great stream of income coming to him

1104
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:56,439
Speaker 4: his period. And again, all the stuff he quote unquote owned,

1105
00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 4: he actually only owned one car. Every other car he

1106
00:54:59,280 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 4: ever had.

1107
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 2: Was Does his a state have a lot of money now?

1108
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 4: I think they're doing pretty well. I mean the estate

1109
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:08,239
Speaker 4: wasn't that they're not bad or anything, but they weren't

1110
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 4: super friendly with this book. But I'm sure they did.

1111
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:12,839
Speaker 4: You know, they own a lot of rights. When every

1112
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 4: time you buy a Tupac shirt in Walmart or Target,

1113
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 4: you're giving money to the estate. That's not a criticism,

1114
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 4: that's his reality. So I think they're doing pretty well.

1115
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 4: That's kind of and it's not a lot.

1116
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's kind of bizarre that after the death most

1117
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 1: of the money's made.

1118
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 4: I don't like the thing. I don't like. Again, it's

1119
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 4: a judgment. I'm not saying I'm right. I don't love

1120
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 4: you go into Target and there's like a nine dollars

1121
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:41,280
Speaker 4: made in some sweatshop, in some you know, poor country

1122
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 4: shirt with Tupac on it. I just think Tupac. It's

1123
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 4: a guess. I really think you would have hated that.

1124
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:48,400
Speaker 4: I don't think you would have liked that.

1125
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 1: My final question is mostly about you. I remember what

1126
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 1: you doing the TikTok because of you talking, but also

1127
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:55,799
Speaker 1: being in like a coffee shop. I don't know which

1128
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:57,319
Speaker 1: way of a Starbucks or whatever it was, I don't know,

1129
00:55:57,480 --> 00:55:59,799
Speaker 1: but you would have stacked and stacks of papers and

1130
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:02,319
Speaker 1: you have your laptop, and and I just picture.

1131
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 2: Like at home, it's like a beautiful mind.

1132
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:07,439
Speaker 1: You've got strings going from articles and because again that's

1133
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 1: so much information.

1134
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 2: How accurate is it that you were just it was

1135
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:12,280
Speaker 2: papers everywhere.

1136
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 4: I do not have a beautiful mind, but it is

1137
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,640
Speaker 4: papers everywhere. It is. I call it my crack down

1138
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 4: of paper. It's just like NonStop and folders to like

1139
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 4: print everything out. Because I'm old enough they still do that.

1140
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:25,480
Speaker 4: And I like outlining and underlining and this and that.

1141
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:27,839
Speaker 4: So it's like, where's that, where's that thing? Where's that?

1142
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:31,359
Speaker 4: It's more nutty, professor, I think than beautiful mind? Where

1143
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:33,799
Speaker 4: shovel it? And lost? But yeah, it's kind of now

1144
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 4: all that stuff is in my garage. My wife is like,

1145
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:36,839
Speaker 4: can we get rid of it? And I'm like, not yet,

1146
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:37,239
Speaker 4: but soon.

1147
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 2: Okay.

1148
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:39,759
Speaker 1: Last last question, and this is this. It could be

1149
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 1: really stupid, but did you ever want to try crack?

1150
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:45,040
Speaker 1: Since you wrote so much about it?

1151
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 4: No? I did not.

1152
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:48,640
Speaker 2: Okay, listen, I don't know.

1153
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 1: Maybe you did.

1154
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:52,520
Speaker 4: I Oh, I'll tell you what I wanted to try.

1155
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 4: There are two things I haven't tried yet. I've only

1156
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 4: smoked weed a handful of times in my life and

1157
00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 4: just not that guy. And I'm not a big drinker.

1158
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 4: I still haven't tried Hennessy. I'd like to try hennessy.

1159
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 4: And I've never smoked a blunt and I'd like to

1160
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 4: smoke a blump. But I will tell you, Bobby, And

1161
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 4: this is quote my daughter, Casey, who's in college, for

1162
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 4: Father's Day last year, gave me because there's a line

1163
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:13,919
Speaker 4: in a Tupac song, i can picture you in heaven

1164
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 4: with a blunt in a brute from God buless to dead.

1165
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 4: She got me a beer and she couldn't find a blunt,

1166
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 4: but she got me a joint and gave it for

1167
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 4: Father's Day last year because I used to say I

1168
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 4: can picture in heaven with a blunt in a brewe.

1169
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:26,960
Speaker 4: So that was kind of a funny.

1170
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:29,040
Speaker 2: Gift, but no crack. All right, Well, hey, I thought.

1171
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 4: You kind of got it. If you want to do

1172
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 4: it together, I'm in Jeff.

1173
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 2: I really appreciate the time.

1174
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 1: And here's the thing the book only God can judge me,

1175
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 1: The Many Lives of Tupac Shaker. If you're hearing this

1176
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 1: before it's out, because it comes out in the twenty first,

1177
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 1: you can order it. It'll be at your door in

1178
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 1: the twenty first if you're hearing this after the book

1179
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:51,640
Speaker 1: is out. Now, okay, final, final, final question. Did you

1180
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 1: become more or less of a fan of the person

1181
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 1: after writing the book?

1182
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:57,240
Speaker 4: More? Because it's the same thing with everyone I write about.

1183
00:57:57,560 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 4: I love the complexities of people, and I love the

1184
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:02,920
Speaker 4: journeys of people. And actually it is interesting the books

1185
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 4: that are just glowing portraits of people, I don't think

1186
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 4: they actually make you more of a fan. They just

1187
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 4: reinforce your fandom. But when you learn about what someone

1188
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:12,440
Speaker 4: went through, the hardships, the troubles, the highs, the lows,

1189
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 4: the horrible moments, the great moments, I almost think it

1190
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 4: has to make you more of a fan because you

1191
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 4: can appreciate the struggle. So that's where I sit.

1192
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:20,760
Speaker 1: Jeff, appreciate the time, man, Good luck. I hope you

1193
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:22,440
Speaker 1: sell tons and tons of books.

1194
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 4: Thank you so much. I appreciate it all.

1195
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 2: Right, Thanks Jeff, see letter man, oh Man, thank you

1196
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:27,560
Speaker 2: so much.

1197
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 1: Hey who are you doing next? Not for not you know,

1198
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:31,600
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say anything. Are you working on one already?

1199
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 4: H I'm doing a book no one's going to buy.

1200
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 4: That's a memoir about my early Nashville journalism career. Yeah,

1201
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:42,240
Speaker 4: it's a project. And then I'm either I'm lined up

1202
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:45,959
Speaker 4: to do the third Laker trilogy book about Kobe post

1203
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 4: Shack and that whole team. But I don't know if

1204
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 4: anyone's gonna care. So I'm a little torn.

1205
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 1: Well, both books, both books you just mentioned you went, well,

1206
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 1: nobody's gonna care.

1207
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:53,919
Speaker 2: Nobody's gonna care.

1208
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:56,560
Speaker 4: I don't know. I'm self loathing to you from New York.

1209
00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 2: It's what we do, you know, all right, Jeff, good

1210
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 2: to talk to you, man, Bobby.

1211
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:01,000
Speaker 4: I'll say your future.

1212
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:04,600
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to a Bobby Cast production

1213
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 2: M