1 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:12,639 Speaker 1: Welkre trillions. I'm Joel Weber and I'm Ericastreness. So Eric, 2 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: I have this amazing colleague named Josh Green who's the 3 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: national correspondent for Bloomberg Business Week. UM. He wrote a 4 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: book about Steve Bannon and Donald Trump a couple of 5 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:24,799 Speaker 1: years ago called Devil's Bargain. He does a lot of 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: work for Bloomberg Business Week, the magazine that I'm editor of. 7 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: UH and he came to me with an idea recently 8 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: that made me want to bring him on the podcast. 9 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 1: It's in the current issue of the magazine. UM, and 10 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: it's about UH an et F company called Second Vote Advisors. 11 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: Have you heard of them? Uh? Yeah, I mean they 12 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 1: I think they have two funds out. I remember the filings. 13 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: But there's been a couple type companies like this, and 14 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: they sometimes blend together and largely they just sort of 15 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: go right to oblivion. UM. So we're not on our 16 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: radar a lot, but I do it does sort of 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: ring a bell, if you will. UM. And I think 18 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: one of them's what pro life and the other ones 19 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: pro gun. And there's gonna be another one that comes 20 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: out next month. UM. And it was interesting about this 21 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: obviously the strategy here is to appeal to UH sort 22 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: of more of a right wing UH style of politics 23 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: then you would probably usually see in investing. And we've 24 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: actually done a version of this story on trillions a 25 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: couple of years ago around them MAGA E t F 26 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: that ticker. Um, how is that one faired historically? Yeah? 27 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: So I remember that was with Rachel Evans, she went 28 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: to Dallas. That was one of our field reports that 29 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: we need to do more up. By the way, those 30 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: are really great. It was like from the from the 31 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: before times. Yeah. So look, the MAGA E t F 32 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: hasn't done much. I mean talk about everyone. That filing 33 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: hit and I tweeted out the ticker. Everybody went crazy 34 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: and it obviously broke through in a marketing sense, but 35 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: it didn't really gather much assets. You know why because 36 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: it tends to be light tech and heavy like industrial 37 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: rills and energy. UM, so for the most part, it's underperformed. 38 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: That said, there was a time in the first quarter 39 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: and and this year in general, where tech, especially in 40 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 1: the Q one, really lagged and energy and industrials were 41 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: coming back and those value stocks. So I actually wrote 42 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: a note saying that MAGA was actually an ironically backdoor 43 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: way to play the Biden presidency because that there had 44 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: been a shift in the sector. So I would say 45 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: that if you wanted an industrial, oily kind of play 46 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: that doesn't have tech, MAGA will work in that regard. 47 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 1: I don't know if anybody would use it for that, 48 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: but it actually has this sort of other purpose in 49 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: my opinion. But um, it is beating the SMP this 50 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: year by a little bit, but it's been destroyed lifetime 51 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: by about thirty eight percentage points, largely because it doesn't 52 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: have any tech this time. On trillion, the Rise of 53 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: the anti woke et F. Okay, Josh, welcome to trillions. 54 00:02:55,880 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 1: Great to be with you. Dan Grant, what's his pitch? So? 55 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: Dan Grant is uh former JP Morgan banker, conservative guy 56 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 1: who I know through politics, who last year started up 57 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: a company called Second Vote Advisors, and the idea basically 58 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: is to pitch right leaning E t F products to 59 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: balance out what he and his colleagues feel is a 60 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: kind of galloping on Wall Street towards E S G 61 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,799 Speaker 1: woke liberalism. Dan thinks that this is a bad politics, 62 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: but more important, bad investment, and so uh, he and 63 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: his company, which has some conservative luminaries on the board 64 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: are rolling out a series of e t F to 65 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: try and appeal to that conservative MAGA audience. And how's 66 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: it going so far? Well, it isn't an entirely new idea, 67 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: you know, as you guys had said in the intro. Uh, 68 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: you know there's a MAGA fund rolled out in seventeen. 69 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: There was another e t F that came out I 70 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: think last year, American Conservative Values Fund. So people have 71 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: had the idea before of trying to sell financial products 72 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: to you know, a Trump friendly MAGA crowd. And if 73 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: you look at the huge inflows into et F over 74 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: the last year or so, and especially you know E 75 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 1: s G, that does seem to be an audience um 76 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: of consumers who have at least a kind of a 77 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: political awareness. I mean, so far it seems to be 78 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: more geared toward environment and social justice and not so 79 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: much right leaning stuff. But Dan's belief is that, you know, 80 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 1: there are a lot of conservatives out there who are 81 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: gonna want products that that both reflect their personal and 82 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: political views and and can also turn a profit. That's 83 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 1: the pitch. Now. Having said that, as I say in 84 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: the piece, none of these funds has managed to amass 85 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: more than thirty five million dollars, so they're still trying 86 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: to get off the ground. And I think that that's 87 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: actually like an interesting point because so much money, as 88 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: Eric and I have talked about before, has gone into 89 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: E S G and Eric, so when you when you 90 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: think about that, because you're no fan of V S 91 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 1: G T. By the way, I'm not generally speaking, I'm not. Um. Well, 92 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: I don't care how people want to invest. I mean, 93 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: if you want to invest with your values one way 94 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: or the other, I don't. I mean, I don't mind. 95 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 1: I I just think they're not practical. Um and it 96 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: usually practical and and returns trump everything or cost no 97 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: pun intended. Uh, not your values. I think people like 98 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: to exercise their values at the polls or you know, 99 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: writing or in other ways or you know, in their 100 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: spare time. Um. The E S G funds. The problem 101 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: I have with those is is they're they're sort of 102 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: trying to dislodge Vanguard from the core of your portfolio. 103 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: And no one is really going to let go of 104 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: a three basis point like total market fund. It's too 105 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: good a deal even if you do believe in these things. 106 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: The other thing with E s G. I feel like 107 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 1: they're selling the feeling of doing something good, like oh, 108 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: we're not gonna hold energy stocks, but then they fly 109 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: off on vacation, they have an SUV. I mean, honestly, 110 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: I feel like it's almost um like a uh insincere 111 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 1: form of slacktivism. And there's no evidence that will actually 112 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: return better, Like their academic studies have not been able 113 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: to show that E s G investing does better. But 114 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: the media eats it up. They love E s G. 115 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: It gets it's the most press per assets that I've 116 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: ever seen in the history of etf s. And about 117 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: the s G t fssets are black Rock moving the 118 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: funds into their own model portfolio. So there's actually not 119 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 1: even a lot of grassroots interest. But there is more 120 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,799 Speaker 1: than the right leaning stuff, I will say. But that said, 121 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: I could see why if you're on the right, because 122 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: I have people who aren't even political on Twitter who 123 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: are a little annoyed about the E s G sort 124 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 1: of um high hat thing going on where it's like 125 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: we're doing good, we're doing great, you know, we're changing 126 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: the world, and I don't know, I think a lot 127 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: of people smell bullshit in it, Yeah, and I think 128 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: it's I think it's part of part of the second 129 00:06:55,400 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: vote Advisor's pitch is that listen, everybody says politics and 130 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: investing don't mix, but but look at what's happening with 131 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: the s G. You know they're there, they become slaves 132 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: to this idea of of being kind of woke and 133 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: foregrounding social justice, that whole kind of thing. That's not 134 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: the way to go. I mean, my sense in talking 135 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: to Dan Grant and the people around him is that 136 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: you know, they're offended by that politically um, but also 137 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: that they think that it's it's bad business. I mean, 138 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: one of the things that Grant talks about a lot 139 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: is that he believes in, uh, you know, Milton Friedman's 140 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: famous dictum about the only job of corporations to make 141 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: money for shareholders. And if you're busy, as Dan says 142 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: to me in the piece donating to Black Lives Matter, 143 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: they're trying to save the planet, then you're not focused 144 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: on your shareholders. So uh, you know, I think the 145 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: interesting question with these funds that I mean, you point 146 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: out that they haven't gotten a lot of traction, is 147 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: is this an investment vehicle or is it really another 148 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: means of political expression, because I think part of the 149 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: inherent pitch in this and one of the reasons why 150 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: we're seeing so much activity around Trump and investing. Right, 151 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: he's got his back. You can buy non fungible Trump tokens. 152 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: We've got a bitcoin eat here. They are all sorts 153 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: of ways you can kind of begin to express things. 154 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: I think there's a feeling that everything in American life 155 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: has become so hyper politicized. Dan Grant would say, you know, 156 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: why shouldn't e tfs too, And I think it's a 157 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: fair question to raise. Yeah, you know, and sports in 158 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: particular and entertainment. It is unfortunate. Used to be these 159 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: places you can hide out, and investing was one of 160 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: those places where you can just escape the politics. Used 161 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: to just be in politics. But just the way it is, 162 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: I guess um, and I think to your point about E. 163 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: S G. There's two ways to pitch both of these things. 164 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: It's just like you can do better return wise, or 165 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: you can express your values. So when I think of 166 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: the expressing of the values, I think that when when 167 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: people really think, deep down, do I really want to like, 168 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: you know, potentially the SMP, because if you do charts. 169 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: Let's say you get five pc of the SMP five 170 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: seven percent every year, that's gonna end up being like 171 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: like so much money difference over like ten years. You 172 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: would probably hate yourself then. That said, the other side 173 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: of the coin is if you go in thinking it 174 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: will out perform and it doesn't, it's almost like but 175 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: betting on an active manager back in the day, and 176 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,319 Speaker 1: it's just so difficult to outperform. And most of these 177 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: funds have decent, you know, pretty high expense ratios. So 178 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: to me, a lot of this is almost like just 179 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,439 Speaker 1: new active. Instead of hiring a tro price manager to 180 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: pick stocks based on fundamentals and paying seventy five BIPs, 181 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: you're hiring second vote to go and screen these companies 182 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: for political vocalism, and you're paying them seventy fives. I mean, 183 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: you might not perform, you might not and ultimately, though 184 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: the odds are in the numbers show you will not. 185 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: So Josh actually talk to us about how they decide 186 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: what they put into their et s. Well, So this 187 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: is this is surp risingly controversial. Um As I'm sure 188 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:07,319 Speaker 1: you guys know as as political observers, there's a lot 189 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: of infighting among Republicans about who is a genuine Republican 190 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: and who is a rhino a Republican a name only. Uh. 191 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: And what's kind of funny about the different right leaning 192 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: you know MAGA type ETFs is that each one of 193 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,839 Speaker 1: them has a different measuring uh stick for what constitutes 194 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: an authentically conservative fund and they all differ, and they 195 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: all kind of bicker with each other. So uh, Second 196 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: Vote Advisors, I think probably has the most sophisticated one, 197 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: although it's often difficult to understand um. The company grew 198 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: out of a nonprofit that was started by a guy 199 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: named David black Back in twelve, a conservative who became 200 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: upset when he gave money at the supermarket's a March 201 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: of dimes and then found out later on that March 202 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: of Dimes, I guess gives grants to plan parenthood. That 203 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: offended his values. So he started me on. I mean, 204 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: we're talking like, there's the pennies that you put at 205 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 1: the box at the ready. Yeah. Well you know, hey, 206 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: you know I sent them off. We've all got our 207 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: trigger points, right, And and so what he did was 208 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: he took a bunch of money, independently wealthy guy and 209 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: he started an outfit that rates every company in the 210 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: S and P five hundred according to his proprietary scale 211 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: of whether the company is liberal or conservative. And that's 212 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,359 Speaker 1: based on, uh, it can be you know, political donations, 213 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: corporate policies, you know, whether the CEO say nice things 214 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: about block Lives matter that kind of thing, Whether they 215 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 1: give grants to outfits like Planned Parenthood to try and 216 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: detect and rate like where they where they rank on 217 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: a scale. And then what what what the the group 218 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,719 Speaker 1: does that they send by certified letter. They send their 219 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: reports to the boards of all fire companies. There's no 220 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: no idea if anybody ever opens these letters, but this 221 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: is what they do. They go out there and you know, 222 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 1: they've they've had these crusades against Nike for quoting here 223 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: denigrating the American flag. They put out reports on Walt 224 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: Disney um because the Muppet Baby's TV show they allege 225 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:12,119 Speaker 1: promotes gender confusion and youth. So these you know, hardcore 226 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: kind of kind of conservatives here trying to influence conservatives, 227 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:19,599 Speaker 1: spending habits without any real evidence that it's working. But 228 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: was interesting was last year they decided, hey, you know, 229 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: we're going to start the second vote. Advisors we're going 230 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: to try and make money doing this in the vehicle 231 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: we're gonna use or these conservative ETFs. And then the 232 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: way I first found them was the way they're trying 233 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: to reach retail investors is, you know, they're not going 234 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: so much to investment advisors who are gonna like put 235 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: them in a fund that Eric would like three pip 236 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: Vanguard five hundred. They're going on right wing talk radio. 237 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: Dan Grant is railing against woke corporations like Nike and 238 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: Coca Cola and trying to get those fired up talk 239 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: radio listeners to invest some of their retirement money and 240 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: a second vote E t F. And you know, last 241 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: I think I checked for this piece went to press. Yeah, 242 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: they were up somewhereround fifty million dollars. You know, in 243 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: a year they were they were kind of gaining, not 244 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: a huge fund, but not nothing. And I think the 245 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,599 Speaker 1: hope is, especially now that Democrats are in charge and 246 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: Joe Biden as president, is that they can somehow find 247 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: a way to kind of harness that Trump energy that's 248 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: been so powerful and culture in other ways and get 249 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: people to use it to buy their products. Josh, something 250 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:32,359 Speaker 1: interesting you said earlier is the Disney, like the Conservative 251 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: ETF doesn't want Disney in there. Well, I remember we 252 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,599 Speaker 1: interview with the woman who's behind the Vegan e t F, 253 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: which I would assume is sort of left leaning that 254 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: doesn't hold Disney, and I think we asked her. I 255 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: think it was something about the animals usage in the 256 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: movies and maybe at the theme park. They didn't like that. Um. 257 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: But it's interesting that there's probably a couple of companies 258 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: that they both agree on that are good, and maybe 259 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: some they both agree are bad for different reasons. And 260 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: this is so very subjective, I think, but I gotta agree. 261 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 1: I mean, you're right, it's entirely subjective. And one of 262 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: the reasons these conservative funds are bickering is that they 263 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: measure different ways. Right, so that how Lambert the guy 264 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: runs the MAGA E t F, he measures it based 265 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:14,319 Speaker 1: very simple metric, do you give more money to Democrats 266 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: or Republicans. Well, what's interesting is they disagree on specific 267 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: companies and one I mentioned the piece as Goldman Sacks, 268 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: And so these conservatives at Second Vote Advisors are happy 269 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: to have Goldman Sachs, you know, in one of their 270 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: funds because you know, it doesn't offend their right to 271 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: life stuff or what have you. Whereas how Lambert calls 272 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: me up, these guys are total rhinos, total fakes. Because 273 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: Golden gave more money to Democrats and Republicans last cycle, 274 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: how can they call themselves conservative? So you're right, it's 275 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: completely arbitrary at the end of the day what gets 276 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: called conservative and what goes into these funds. But but 277 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: really what they're trying to do, and I think grants 278 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: branding on this, is to try and capture a slice 279 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: of that anti woke energy you see royal ing in 280 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: servative politics and direct some of that energy toward their products. Man, 281 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: it is such a yin and yang to the E. 282 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: S G. Because E. S G. If you ask ten 283 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: d SG analysts is tesla E s G five will 284 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: say S five will say no. They'll have an argument 285 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: and Amazon somethink. Amazon does great things, but then they 286 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:22,119 Speaker 1: treat their workers like crap. Uh. This subjectivity is exactly 287 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: the whole thing is one big mirror, I think, and E. 288 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: S G. I think, is also trying to tap into 289 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: the reverse energy, which is corporations are bad, they only 290 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: want to make money. These are trying to do good 291 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: things and there's there's a very they're almost like the 292 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: same ends. What we're trying to say that the same 293 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: size of two sides of the same mirror images. Now 294 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: that's that's that's exactly right. It's funny. My way of 295 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: coming into this, I write mainly about politics, was the 296 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: bickering among the different MAGA advisers sort of mirrors the 297 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: bickering among Republican politicians about who is closer to Trump 298 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: and who can show more fealty and a you know, 299 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: like that's the currency in Republican politics these days. But 300 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: it's funny because it really is a mirror of kind 301 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: of what's going on with the s G. It all 302 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: comes down to, you know, how do you how do 303 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: you define what it is what you're gunning for? And 304 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: everybody doesn't in the way that is you know, self serving, 305 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: and everybody is going out there stabbing their rivals in 306 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: the back, trying to convince you that they're the phonies, 307 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: that they're the authentic ones. And it's the same thing 308 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: playing out in finance that I see playing out in politics. 309 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: I think that common denominator between everything we're talking about 310 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: his purity. It's like there's a purity test. Remember on 311 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: the Democratic primary, M Warren and Buddha Jes got into 312 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: that over the purity. She was like, oh you had 313 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: you had a one of those fundraisers and you all 314 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: bought like forger bottles of wine with like millionaires in 315 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: the cave right, Yeah, in the cave right. He's like, look, 316 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: is this a purity test? Like are we gonna have 317 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: to all live in the woods and like not, do 318 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: you know? And so there is this sort of thing 319 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: of like how pure are you in this sort of 320 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: cause that you take up. And that's a problem with 321 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: some of the E s G funds that are popular 322 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: is they hold a lot of right cular stocks because 323 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: people want to have something close to the SMP so 324 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: they wanted to perform. But then you end up holding 325 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: Facebook and JP Morgan and you're not pure, your fake 326 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 1: get out of here. Yeah, okay, I gotta throw another 327 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: company out here. XXN. How How did how does everybody 328 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: in this uh, you know, this universe feel about Exxon Josh? 329 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: I mean, look, if you're asking me, you know, uh 330 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 1: fossil fuel hydrocarbon that that would rate as an old 331 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: school conservative company and yet second vote on their on 332 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: their ratings scale considers both Exxon and Chevron liberal companies. 333 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,159 Speaker 1: So going back again to the idea that all of 334 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 1: this is entirely subjective. I mentioned that to a liberal 335 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,120 Speaker 1: friend who works on climate and like his head exploded. 336 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: He's like, wait, what you know? You know the idea 337 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: that Wall Street is this bastion of of out of 338 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:51,199 Speaker 1: control rampant liberalism driven by hippie companies like Exxon Mobile, 339 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,239 Speaker 1: Like just didn't didn't compute with him. I don't think 340 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 1: we compete with a lot of people. By the way, Um, 341 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: why does life hold black Rock? I mean Black Rocks 342 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: like the biggest pusher of yes she funds there is. 343 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: I think the answer is because, um, they apparently don't 344 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: violate the social screen on abortion or or or right 345 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 1: to life that second Vote Advisors is applying on that fund. 346 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: I mean, Dan was was Dan Grant was a little 347 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 1: defensive when I pointed set this out, but he said, 348 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: I think, in fairness, look like for this fund, we 349 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: apply this screen, and if companies make it through that screen, 350 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: we're gonna pick the ones that we think are gonna 351 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 1: perform best. And it may be that you know, or 352 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: I guess it is that he thinks black Rock is 353 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: gonna gonna do a good job and perform well, and 354 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: is is kosher on the issue in this particular fund, 355 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: whereas if it were like an anti climate fund ors 356 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,400 Speaker 1: something like that, you probably woudn't see them in there. Okay. 357 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 1: So another interesting element here is that, especially with MAGA 358 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 1: for instance, like the goal here was to appeal to 359 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: a retail audience, and I so I suppose that sort 360 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: of happened also with the Trump uh Digital World acquisition 361 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: Corps back, you know, the Trump's back that happened. I mean, 362 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 1: there's like a retail fervor for this in this kind 363 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: of the age of meme stocks. But the other thing 364 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: that your article goes into is that um Dan Granted 365 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: and Second Vote seems to think that there might be 366 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: an institutional dollar that they could attract, right, So so 367 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 1: what's what do they see on that front? So this 368 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: is a great point. I mean, as as as uh, 369 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,959 Speaker 1: you know, Eric has explained in the past, you need 370 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 1: to reach a certain scale to be viable, and it's 371 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 1: not clear you know you need you know, Grant says 372 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: they're gonna need a hundred fifty dollars assets under management 373 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: in order to remain of going concern. It's not at 374 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:40,439 Speaker 1: all clear that you're gonna get that through the retail 375 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: investor right hasn't really worked yet with these funds, um 376 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: But what what what he is eyeing at second Vote 377 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: Advisors are a lot of these Republican led red state 378 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:55,959 Speaker 1: pension funds where you have politicians in these states who are, 379 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 1: you know, adamantly anti liberal, anti woe Oak and so 380 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 1: Grant has been traveling around the country. He met last 381 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: week with Arizona's Republican treasure. He's met with pension funds, 382 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: I think a state pension funds in Louisiana and Missouri, 383 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 1: and last week he was down in Orlando talking to 384 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: a gathering of state treasures, trying to basically appeal to 385 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: their political beliefs and say, listen, you guys should be 386 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: investing in my funds because I'm against all these anti 387 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 1: woll companies and you're against them too. And if he 388 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 1: were able to tap into those institutional dollars, well, that 389 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: could be a real game change, I think for his company. 390 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: One of the interesting things that I see in politics 391 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 1: is I don't think that that's a crazy belief to have, 392 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: right If you look at a state like Texas Governor 393 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 1: Abbott there has gone after his past laws, you know, 394 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: banning specific bank banks and bank practices because they've taken 395 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 1: e s g stands against fossil fuels or guns. And 396 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: just last week in Florida, Ron de sand As, the 397 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: Republican governor, I think, uh possibly a Republican frontrunner for 398 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,199 Speaker 1: president or at least candidate for president, give a speech 399 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: to the Florida Chamber of Commerce in which he blasted quote, 400 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 1: the rise of woke capitalism. And he said, and I quote, 401 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: if you're using your powers of corporation and you're leveraging 402 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,239 Speaker 1: that to try and advance in ideology, I think it's 403 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 1: gonna be very dangerous for the country. And I'm not 404 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: just gonna sit idly by. So the Republican governor of 405 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: Florida is like threatening Florida businesses overwoke capitalism. To me, 406 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: that says that this has salience in Republican circles, among 407 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,719 Speaker 1: Republican politicians. So who's to say that, you know, at 408 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 1: some point in the near future we might see red 409 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: state Republicans trying to push the Teacher's Fund or the 410 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: Firefighters Fund or whatever in their state to invest in 411 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: companies like second vote advisors, and that's certainly something that 412 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: Dan Grant is gunning for. Yeah, two things I want 413 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 1: to dive into their with what you're talking about, Josh 414 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: is interesting, which is first, this just portfolio practicality. I 415 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: think if you're an institution, I mean, if you have 416 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: a lot of money, usually can get a lot cheaper 417 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: than seventy five basis points. I would wonder if Dan 418 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: would offer maybe an s M A. I Honestly, the 419 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: E s G E T s that do the best 420 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: are the ones below twenty. In fact, E s G 421 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: didn't take off at all until the category got vanguarded 422 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 1: and became below twenty. Vanguard came in at like thirteen 423 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: BIPs and then black Rock following now would explode it 424 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 1: because advisors and institutions just don't want to pay. They 425 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 1: know that cost will really mess up the return. So 426 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: has he talked about the fee if? I mean, it's 427 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 1: really high, and that's that's a great point. One of 428 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: the things that they're working on rolling out are indexes 429 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: that would essentially be you know, have much lower fees, 430 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 1: but also more closely tracked some of the benchmarks you're 431 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: talking about earlier, So you don't wind up with these 432 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: very actively managed portfolios. Instead, you have, you know, hypothetically 433 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 1: the S and P five minus you know, the companies 434 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: that are mean to Donald Trump and Bannon from Twitter 435 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: and the companies that you know won't invest in guns 436 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,360 Speaker 1: or whatever. Subtract those out. Maybe that at a much 437 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 1: lower fee is something that you can sell to you know, 438 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: a Florida or a Louisiana or a Texas pension fund 439 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: at some point, or an advisor. And that's exactly what 440 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: they do. On the E s G side, that's when 441 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: it started working if you But then again that's not pure. 442 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: It would not pass anybody's purity tests. If I showed 443 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: you E s GU the biggest D s G t 444 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: F there is, Facebook is in the top ten uh 445 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: exns in their most people seeking E s G would 446 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: be not into that. But on the flip side, advisors 447 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 1: and other people also don't want to have tracking are 448 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: So those two things are always going to be opposed. 449 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: But I will say you can move more product if 450 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: you're cheaper and look more like the SMP. On the 451 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: other point, though, is this idea of like all these 452 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 1: people just wanting to affect things. I mean, I just ever, 453 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 1: so much conversation is on the investor instead of the consumer. 454 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 1: You just not shop there, not use Google, there are 455 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 1: other search engines. Don't use Twitter um, And same thing 456 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: on the s G front. I wonder how many SG 457 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 1: investors have actually curbed their oil use where they don't 458 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: use Netflix or Amazon, which are excluded from plenty of 459 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: funds UM. I think a lot of this is just 460 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: like sort of I hate to say it, like a 461 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: lazy way, And how much does this really matter? Like 462 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: if you don't own Twitter, someone else is gonna buy 463 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: it if it has a good valuation. On the flip side, 464 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,239 Speaker 1: there was an article on Bloomberg this week about how 465 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 1: black Rock divesting from coal companies m actually provided opportunity 466 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 1: for other investors because again, the demands still there until 467 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: you actually curb the actual demand. So if I was 468 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: advising people to invest with your values, I would actually 469 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 1: really move them more towards their power as a consumer 470 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: and as a voter. I think those two things are 471 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,880 Speaker 1: much more powerful. And then just just you know, live 472 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: with your beta and exercise those influences through your voting 473 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: and through your own pocketbook. I don't know, is that crazy? No? 474 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 1: I you know the funny. The funny example to me 475 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,719 Speaker 1: again coming at this through a wick in politics is uh. 476 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: The greatest example I can think of the difficulty of 477 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,719 Speaker 1: falling through on those kind of boycotts was back when 478 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: he was in the White House, Donald Trump um got 479 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 1: angry at at Coca Cola. I think I think it 480 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,360 Speaker 1: had to do uh with with something in the state 481 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 1: of Georgia, and he said, we're gonna boycott Coca Cola. 482 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 1: And like two days later, a press photographer snapped the 483 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: picture of his desk and there's a can of coke 484 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 1: right there. So even he couldn't adhere to his own boycott. 485 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 1: I think that's that's why though, I think that part 486 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: of part of what these funds are going for isn't 487 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 1: this pure investment play. Even if they present themselves this way, 488 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: it is it is to offer themselves up as a 489 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 1: means of political expression. You know, you're listening to Sebastian 490 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: Gorka's talk radio show, the Trump kind of crazy right 491 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,120 Speaker 1: wing Trump advisor who got fired, and you know he's 492 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 1: got a got a radio show now, and you hear 493 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 1: him railing against wold capitalism. You know, this company comes 494 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 1: on and says hey, by our e t F. Let's 495 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,880 Speaker 1: stick it to these woke companies. Yeah, who knows? Maybe 496 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: you know you click here, you click their boom by 497 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: you know, by ten dollars worth. You've done it. You 498 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 1: feel good about yourself. Is it a smart investment? Maybe not? 499 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: But I think that's that's what they're looking for. This 500 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 1: isn't the kind of green eye shades. What's going to 501 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 1: earn me the best return? It's how do I tap 502 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 1: into that political anger? And I think we see that 503 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 1: on both sides of the aisle and all kinds of funds, now, 504 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,919 Speaker 1: whether it's you know, woke e s G or anti 505 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 1: woke second voter visors. So, Eric, have you ever heard 506 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: about the you know them going for institution money like this? 507 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: Have you ever have you ever come across anybody else 508 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: in the E t F landscape that's attempted to do 509 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 1: something like that and kind of crack a different category. Well, 510 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: black Rock has been effective at getting institutions in their 511 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: E s G funds. In fact, that's where a good 512 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 1: chunk of money comes from. But they're they're pricing them 513 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: at like twelve basis points and it's usually like a 514 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 1: European institution and it's a fund that will keep we 515 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: have little tracking. Er. So if I show when we 516 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: had a webinar and we had our E s G 517 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: analyst at Alene from Europe on and she does not 518 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: like E s Q to her, it's not pure, doesn't 519 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: really do anything. It just I think it allows that 520 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:18,239 Speaker 1: institution to check a box. But they might argue, well, um, 521 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: we can't have tracking er. So what this does is 522 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: it gives us real pretty good tracking, but it does 523 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: tilt a little towards what we want. And it's almost 524 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,479 Speaker 1: like that's why we have spectrum scores for all ets, 525 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: whether it's value or E s G. Just like alcohol 526 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: content on a beer, you need to know if it's 527 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,199 Speaker 1: like you know, Odul's zero or like one of these 528 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: like German beers like alcohol level or an I p 529 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: A in the middle, and that is to me, what 530 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: what you need here? So that way a person approaching this, 531 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 1: whether they want to do a political expression or to perform, 532 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: knows I want the water down version. I'm cool with 533 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: just that way I can track the market, or I 534 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: want the hardcore one, but the water down one has 535 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: to be cheap, and that's the one the institution will 536 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: typically buy, but also Maga, the Maga guy and the 537 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,239 Speaker 1: second Amicu they're not They're not black Rock. I mean 538 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,879 Speaker 1: black Rock is a major force. They have these relationships 539 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: for years. So if a big record performing and the 540 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 1: and the institution, I will say, you're not gonna get 541 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: any brad press going into E s G. If it 542 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 1: went into this, it might get some bad press. And 543 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: that's just the way it is, right or wrong. UM. 544 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: I will say. The one thing though, when it comes 545 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: to these political sort of E s G. The one 546 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: E t F idea that is a't out that's political 547 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:36,719 Speaker 1: ish that everybody wants is Nancy Pelosi's stock portfolio. Um 548 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: I Actually somebody said who's the best active manager right now? 549 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: And everybody was replying Nancy Pelosi. So I think Nancy 550 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: is the best political idea. Both sides of the aisle 551 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: can agree that her portfolio kicks ass and there should 552 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: be an et F tracking it. And some ETFs have 553 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: come along and tried to capture like the legislation politically, 554 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: and it kind of reminds me of there was a 555 00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: guy named Ben Phillips who came out with the GOP 556 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: and dem E t F. I'm not sure if you 557 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: had a chance to talk to him. But his e 558 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: t f were more about investing in stocks that would 559 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: benefit from legislation, not necessarily a political expression. And and 560 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: I don't think those did that well either. Yeah. I 561 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: think the cautionary tale in the idea that that politics 562 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: and investing don't mix was his company. I think it's 563 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: called Event Shares, And back in seventeen they came out 564 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: with two e t f s TICK or symbol GOP 565 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: and Dems. And these were actually not political funds. They 566 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: were essentially trying to bet on companies that would win 567 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: based on which party was in control of government. Right, 568 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: so if Democrats come in and they want to build 569 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: highways and spend a bunch on infrastructure, hey, let's go 570 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: buy these construction companies. They'll do well. Vice versa with 571 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: the Republicans. UH had a lot of research to back 572 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: this up, but he spent six months going around the 573 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: country talking to wealth managers. All of them said, listen, 574 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: we understand what you're doing. It's clever nowhere. We're touching 575 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: this thing with a ten foot poll because if one 576 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: of my clients, as a Democrat, opens up his his 577 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: his statement, it sees that he's investing in GOP E 578 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: t F, he's gonna flip and vice versa. And so 579 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: after about six months it became clear to the guy 580 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: running this, Ben Phillips, uh, this isn't working. There is 581 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: no market for this. Like wealth managers by nature, especially 582 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: institutional ones, are cautious, risk averse. They're not going to 583 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: buy my products. Eventually it's shut down. I think what's 584 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: interesting that that that Dan Grant and some of these 585 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: other guys are doing is they're not trying to sell 586 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: to an institutional investor necessarily. They're going out and they're 587 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: flying their freak flag and saying, you know, we are 588 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: the MAGA E t F, we're the Second Amendment E 589 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: t F. We are actively flouting our political affiliations and 590 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: hope that that's going to bring us investors. And we'll 591 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: we'll see if he's able to kind of crack the 592 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: losing streak that a lot of these political funds had 593 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: had up until now. One thing about that Dem GOP fund, 594 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: which is so could there there was a middle stage 595 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: there where he said we're gonna call it p LC 596 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: Y and it's going to be legislative alpha. When that 597 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: came out, people like, well, you know, because they try to. 598 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: There's all these marketing terms that pop up in the 599 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: t F world, and people got to kick out of that. 600 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: But I could see that way. He was like, well, 601 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: it's not demo republican. We're just going after alpha that 602 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: results from legislation. But even that didn't work. So I 603 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: think the bigger, the bigger challenge here is something that 604 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: I told you when we talked about the article, which 605 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: is almost all the money in E t F S 606 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,959 Speaker 1: goes to dirt, cheap or shiny objects, and these are 607 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: really neither unless one of them catches fire and just 608 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: starts destroying the smp um or they get below fifteen 609 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 1: basis points or or or or Trump tweets about it, 610 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: you know, like possibly, I mean not you do that 611 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: without without equity in the in the company, but even 612 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: sometimes or or an active Twitter account exactly well good, Honestly, 613 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: if you were on that side, I think buying his 614 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: back would be a quick, easy way to because that 615 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: exercises a lot of It's like, let me invest in 616 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 1: this thing, doing this alternative Twitter, which is what I 617 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 1: sometimes advise, not advise, but I think about when we 618 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: think about E S G. Instead of replacing Vanguard five hundred, 619 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 1: what you could do is go after companies that are 620 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: literally conservative companies. Trump's back would be a great example, 621 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: and just by a small little portfolio concentrated stocks that 622 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: have those and that compliments the chief beta you already have, 623 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: and that to me is more practical than trying to 624 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: sell your Vanguard or whatever and plump in this thing 625 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 1: that may or may not perform basically because you're piste 626 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 1: off or think you're changing the world. Mhm. You know. 627 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: The other thing that I'm just really curious to see 628 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: how this plays out over the next year, especially as 629 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: we walk up towards mid terms here, Josh, is the 630 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: thing that when when Maga came out and we did 631 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: the episode, you know, a couple of years ago, you know, 632 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: effectively was a different day, and you know, Trump as 633 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: president and and now having Biden as president actually kind 634 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: of feels like it might work in their favor a 635 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: little bit because they can rail against Biden and say, 636 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 1: we have antithesis for that, right, and it's like that, 637 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: you know, giving something to someone who who can use 638 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: the the president sort of as a bully pulpit, you know, 639 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: invest in this instead. So I'm curious to see Eric, 640 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: I want, I want you to read on this. If 641 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 1: we if we look at this in a year and 642 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: we've got midterms, what's the what are the odds of 643 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: this thing is cracked? A hundred and fifty very low, 644 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: very low. I'm sorry, it's just it's not Republican or Democrat. 645 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: It's just the way portfolios and investors are behaving now 646 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: and this just doesn't fit into where this just flows. 647 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: Don't go to stuff like this. But interestingly, what you 648 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: just said are cable news like don't Fox's ratings go 649 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: up when there's a dump president? And like, didn't see 650 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: CNN's ratings crash left Like there definitely is a market 651 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: for this. Um, I don't know. I just outside of 652 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: like maybe a fringe audience, it just doesn't seem to 653 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: reach the mainstream of investors. But maybe I'll be proven wrong. 654 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: I'm very doubtful. Yeah, no, Joel, what what you said 655 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: is exactly the spin that these funds give. Well, you know, 656 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 1: when Trump was in the White House, people people could 657 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: get their fixed no problem. Now he's been pushed off 658 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: the stage, and Grant said to me, actually this is 659 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: a quote. He said, you know our funds offered the 660 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: investor a mechanism to fight back, so I think they're 661 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 1: going exactly for that, Like we're out of power. This 662 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: is a way to strike back at the establishment, at democrats. Whatever. 663 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 1: We'll we'll see if that's enough of a sales pitch 664 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,919 Speaker 1: to kind of, you know, a mass, meaningful scale going forward. Josh, 665 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: I got one more question for you, which is one 666 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 1: that we ask everyone who joins us on Trillions, and 667 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,720 Speaker 1: because you're, you know, kind of a E t F newbie, 668 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 1: I'm curious to see if you have an answer to this. 669 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 1: But what is your favorite E t F ticker? Um? 670 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: You know, I gotta say Marga because it's just so 671 00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: clever and and perfect, and I do have to say 672 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: I'm surprised really that that it hasn't taken off more 673 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 1: with the investors they're focusing on, because you know, you 674 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 1: could spend a lifetime trying to think of a more 675 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 1: perfect ticker symbol and not be able to improve on 676 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: Maga if that's the audience you're looking for, So good 677 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: call to your point, Josh on Maga. Maga had never 678 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: had a period about performance, so I was always curious, Well, 679 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,319 Speaker 1: maybe if it has its moment in the sun. Then 680 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 1: they'll come. But it did. For the first half of 681 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: it was up doubling the SMP. It went on a 682 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: nice run. It was ironically perfectly situated for the Biden. 683 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 1: In fact, as soon as Biden got elected, I think 684 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 1: started taking off. I don't that's figure, but nobody bought 685 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: it in that run, and that's a that's a bad 686 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: sign to be honest, Josh Green, thanks for joining us 687 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 1: on Trillions pleasure. Thanks for listening to Trillions until next time. 688 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: You can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg Com, 689 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 1: Apple Podcast, Spotify, and wherever else you'd like to listen. 690 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. We're on Twitter, I'm 691 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:11,320 Speaker 1: at Joel Webber Show. He's at Eric Falcinus. This episode 692 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: of Trillions was produced by Magnus Hendrickson. Francesco Levie is 693 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,840 Speaker 1: the head of Bloomberg Podcast. Bye.