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Speaker 1: Hi, Steve Fishman here, creator of The Burden as well

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Speaker 1: as the number one true crime podcast, My Friend The

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Speaker 1: Serial Killer. For those of you who liked The Burden,

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Speaker 1: I have good news. Season two starts August seventh. It's

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Speaker 1: a series called The Burden Empire on Blood and it's

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Speaker 1: the director's cut of the true crime classic Empire on Blood,

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Speaker 1: which reached number one on the charts when it debuted

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Speaker 1: half a dozen years ago. Then the fat cat funders

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Speaker 1: abandon it. I wrangled it back and now I'm thrilled

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Speaker 1: to share this story of a man who fought the

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Speaker 1: law for two decades, fought against the Bronx's top homicide

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Speaker 1: prosecutor and a detective sometimes known as the Louis Scarcela

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Speaker 1: of the Bronx. It's all coming to you August seventh,

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Previously on The Burden.

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Speaker 3: He just started firing and shooting and shooting, shooting.

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Speaker 1: Derek Hamilton's Derek Hamilton.

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Speaker 2: Listen to me. I think a person that wouldn't lie.

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Speaker 2: Dantrant is a fool.

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Speaker 1: I believe he's guilty of killing Nathaniel Cash. I believe

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Speaker 1: the district attorney believes he's guilty. I believe the city

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Speaker 1: believes he's guilty.

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Speaker 2: So when I see her coming in looking dishovel, I

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Speaker 2: know something's wrong.

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Speaker 1: Oh they bring up Johnny, Johnny very short sleep. The

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Speaker 1: scene is O'Neill's Pub in Masbeth, Queens, September twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 1: A lively police dinner is underway for the retired detectives

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Speaker 1: of the City of New York. In a crowded, windowless

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Speaker 1: back room, cops have gathered Budweiser's in hand to honor

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Speaker 1: one of their own, a first grade detective from benson Hurst, Brooklyn.

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Speaker 1: It's a hero's when one.

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Speaker 4: Day it turned on the news and uh, lovill is

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Speaker 4: Lord scar.

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Speaker 2: Lad They dragged him through the mud.

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Speaker 5: They called the protective disgrace and bet we all could

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Speaker 5: have been in the same boat.

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Speaker 1: You can.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's criminals sitting on.

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Speaker 6: Your ass to the orn and that's why you're still

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Speaker 6: concided in the world's greatest protective Lord scarch Solod we.

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Speaker 2: On a un though, and around this time, Detective Scarcella

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Speaker 2: has another reason to feel vindicated. The Brooklyn District Attorney

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Speaker 2: had essentially cleared Louise's name. It recently vacated seven convictions

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Speaker 2: in Scarcella's cases, but none of those was quote related

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Speaker 2: to any alleged misconduct by Detective Scarcella.

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Speaker 1: This is what Louis has been searching for validation from

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Speaker 1: the top. It was about a year after this detective's

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Speaker 1: dinner that I started looking into the Louis Scarcella story.

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Speaker 1: And for all those years we've been talking to Louis,

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Speaker 1: and Louie has been saying the same thing. I did

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Speaker 1: nothing wrong.

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Speaker 2: I did absolutely nothing wrong.

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Speaker 1: I did nothing wrong. I did nothing wrong, nothing wrong

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Speaker 1: on every one of these cases.

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Speaker 2: I did nothing wrong. But does the public buy it?

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Speaker 2: Do you? Maybe you're ready to call him detective disgrace too.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you side with Derek Scarcella's no better than the

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Speaker 2: serial killer. Who do you believe? At its core everything

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Speaker 2: in this story, everything depends on credibility.

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Speaker 1: Scarcella tells us he's a truth teller, protector of the people,

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Speaker 1: the guardian they need. Derek tells us he's a truth

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Speaker 1: teller too, a crusader, a mouthpiece for everyone who's been

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Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted. He's also told us he's a liar. He'd

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Speaker 1: lie in his self interest. We know he was violent

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Speaker 1: we know he shot people. He's Derek really a victim

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Speaker 1: of Scarcella. The truth is, if one's a hero, then

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Speaker 1: the other is a villain, and we need to know

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Speaker 1: who's who.

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Speaker 2: It's in Derek's case that their fates cross. Scarcella played

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Speaker 2: a role in Shabaka's case and in Nelson's, but Derek's

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Speaker 2: was Louise's start to finish. So what do we think

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Speaker 2: of Louis? Police work only one way to know.

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Speaker 1: We have to solve this case.

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Speaker 2: We did justice for the people learned that. We'll see

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Speaker 2: about that. Feel your body shaking the switch on you.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna turn me. I'm gonna turn on you.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the burden.

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Speaker 1: I'm Dax deviln Ross and I'm Steve Fishman.

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Speaker 5: M HM.

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Speaker 1: Today's episode Vindication, give me a life, detect detestion.

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Speaker 2: Not everybody trusts him, he said to me, we can't

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Speaker 2: let the truth get in the way of Josa. Mister cops.

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Speaker 1: Put the eyes on you, man.

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Speaker 2: It's not whether or not you did it or not.

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Speaker 5: They're gonna close the books on your ass when we'll know.

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Speaker 1: You gotta hold all the time.

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Speaker 7: Derek Hamilton meant nothing to me, nothing, nothing, to me,

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Speaker 7: I had nothing against him, absolutely nothing.

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Speaker 1: The case where Derek and Louis squared off was the

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Speaker 1: Nate Cash murder. Remember cold winter day nineteen ninety one.

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Speaker 1: Nate Cash is said to be gunned down in the

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Speaker 1: vestibule of his apartment building. When detective Scarcella first sees Cash,

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Speaker 1: he's lying in a pool of his own blood, dressed

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Speaker 1: in a stylish robe and pajamas.

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Speaker 2: Scarcela arrived on the scene late that morning. There were

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Speaker 2: shellcasings around the body. For him, this would be an

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Speaker 2: open and shutcase. Another day, another murder.

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Speaker 1: I didn't crack the case. It was there. What do

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Speaker 1: you mean there was?

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Speaker 2: Okay? All right? The witness, Jewel, that.

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Speaker 1: Was Jewel is Jewel Smith, the lone eye witness. She's

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Speaker 1: the key to this case. You might say she's the

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Speaker 1: prosecution's entire case.

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Speaker 2: Jewel said she knew the man who pulled the trigger.

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Speaker 2: She grew up with him in Lafayette Gardens. Derek Hamilton,

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Speaker 2: of course, known to most in the neighborhood as Bush.

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Speaker 2: She said, is she's seeing me shoot a boyfriend in

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Speaker 2: front of ours.

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Speaker 1: Sitting on her couch, she told me the story window figure.

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Speaker 8: That's when I observed Bush, also known as Derek Hamlton.

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Speaker 1: She makes an identification out of a book, a photo book,

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Speaker 1: and that's it.

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Speaker 2: That's it.

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Speaker 1: There was no detective work involved in that case because

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Speaker 1: of Jewel Smith.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I interviewed her and she told me what happened. I

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Speaker 1: gave her a Joe Ponzie. Joe Ponzi interviewed her again.

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Speaker 1: Detective Joe Ponzi was chief investigator for the District Attorney's office.

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Speaker 1: He worked closely with Louis. Their fathers had both been cops.

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Speaker 1: Louis sometimes called him Joey, my best friend.

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Speaker 5: If anyone ever listened to the audio tape of Jewel

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Speaker 5: Joel Smith, a human being couldn't make up the story

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Speaker 5: that she tells.

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Speaker 1: The tape of Jewel Smith's statement to the DA is

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Speaker 1: thirty years old and hard to make out, so he

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Speaker 1: of an actor reading her words.

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Speaker 4: I woke up this morning, I went and I brushed

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Speaker 4: my teeth. So he was cleaning up the house a little.

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Speaker 5: Bit, speaking for myself, being exhilarated, being as high as

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Speaker 5: you know you could possibly get when you know a

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Speaker 5: person not with just making admission, but would give me,

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Speaker 5: you know, exactly what happened in graphic detail.

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Speaker 4: So while he was calling me a cab, I was

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Speaker 4: putting on my sneakers.

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Speaker 5: That's a beautiful feeling.

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Speaker 4: By that time, he put on his rope to walk

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Speaker 4: me downstairs to the cab, like he always does.

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Speaker 5: She provides the entire backdrop of why it happened up

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Speaker 5: to him, including how it happened.

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Speaker 4: Derek Hamilton stepped around the banister and asked me where

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Speaker 4: they did, and Nate was like, I'm right here, Bush.

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Speaker 3: He just started firing and shooting and shooting and shooting.

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Speaker 1: So Jules Smith appears to be a perfect witness for

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Speaker 1: the prosecution. After she gives her statements to Scarcella and Ponsi,

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Speaker 1: she's preparing to go in front of a grand jury,

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Speaker 1: but behind the scenes there's a problem.

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Speaker 5: They're ready to go in the grand jury, and Anne Gutman,

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Speaker 5: the trial prosecutor on the case, says the prime witness

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Speaker 5: is now saying she doesn't want to testify and that

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Speaker 5: it didn't happen the way she originally told the police.

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Speaker 2: All of a sudden, Jewel changes her statement dramatically. She

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Speaker 2: makes a second sore statement, this time to Derek's lawyer,

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Speaker 2: saying I.

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Speaker 4: Owe Derek Hamilton my life. He was not there when

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Speaker 4: mister Cash was shot. He did not shoot mister Cash.

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Speaker 4: I don't know who shot Nathaniel Cash.

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Speaker 1: It is a peculiar statement, Yeah, like something from a

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Speaker 1: hostage video.

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Speaker 2: To Louis and Joe Ponsei, this is just evidence that

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Speaker 2: their star witness is being intimidated by Derek.

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Speaker 5: She was frightened the death of this guy, and she

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Speaker 5: said to me repeatedly, you don't know him. You don't

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Speaker 5: know what he's capable of. You don't know what he

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Speaker 5: could do to me and my family.

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Speaker 1: So then Joe Ponzi does what he does best, gets

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Speaker 1: her back on track.

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Speaker 5: Most of the work was trying to rehabilitate racalcitrant witnesses.

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Speaker 1: What's the magic, Dan, Joe, what's the magic?

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Speaker 7: You know?

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Speaker 1: How long you spending hours with her?

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Speaker 2: Hours?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? Hours, you know, hours, trying to convince her that

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Speaker 5: Cash's life, the victim's life, meant something that the original

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Speaker 5: story she told, audio taped by an assistant district attorney

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Speaker 5: was so detailed and so chock full of background and

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Speaker 5: context that she could not have made it up. Ultimately,

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Speaker 5: she knew what the right thing was. She wanted to

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Speaker 5: do the right thing. She was counterbalancing between her legitimate

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Speaker 5: fear of this guy and knowing what the right thing

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Speaker 5: to do was.

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Speaker 2: What Ponzi is not saying is there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: pressure on Jewel. She's on parole for theft. She has

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Speaker 2: two small children, and if she's arrested it's a violation.

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Speaker 2: She could go back to jail, lose custody of her children.

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Speaker 2: Now she seems to be caught between the police and

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Speaker 2: Derek in a murder investigation. She has no good options.

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Speaker 5: She went in through the grand jury and testified truthfully,

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Speaker 5: he got indicted. Now fast forward to the trial.

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Speaker 1: And in that trial, for the prosecution, everything depends on

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Speaker 1: Jule Smith. Which story is she sticking to, can she

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Speaker 1: be believed and is there more to this story?

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Speaker 2: Jule Smith says, Derek Hamman that committed this murder, never happened.

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Speaker 2: Never happened. That's in a minute.

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Speaker 1: Is not really the trial. That's our focus here. Scarcella

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Speaker 1: testifies and says Derek has killed people his entire life.

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Speaker 1: Then Jewel, the star witness, takes the stand and she

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Speaker 1: tells the jury the same story she told Scarcella and

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Speaker 1: Ponsi that she saw Derek Hamilton shooting and shooting and

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Speaker 1: shooting Nate Cash, and the jury must have believed her,

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Speaker 1: after all, they convicted Derek.

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Speaker 2: The real action happens after the trial. It's then Derek

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Speaker 2: File's emotion and wins a hearing that will allow a

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Speaker 2: review of the evidence. And at this hearing, Jewel tells

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Speaker 2: a completely different story, a third story if you're counting now.

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Speaker 2: She says she wasn't at the crime scene at all.

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Speaker 2: She was at the store. That's the story she will

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Speaker 2: insist on for years to come. This is a nightmare

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Speaker 2: for the prosecution. On the witness stand, Jewel tries to

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Speaker 2: recant everything she said at the trial, says her testimony

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Speaker 2: was coerced, but not by Derek, by prosecutor and government

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Speaker 2: and Joe Ponzi. And years later she'd say her original

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Speaker 2: story was formulated by Detective Scarcella.

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Speaker 4: Because they pressure me for Yeah, all the ones who

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Speaker 4: were counseling me to shake me up, the ones I've

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Speaker 4: seen all the time harassing me.

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Speaker 2: Judge Edward Rappaport is not happy. He's a former lawyer

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Speaker 2: for the police. He reminds Jewel that she's told contradictory

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Speaker 2: accounts both under oath. These are actors reading the exchange

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Speaker 2: between Judge Rappaport and Juel Smith.

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Speaker 6: What is really concerning me, Miss Smith, is that you

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Speaker 6: are subjecting yourself to possible prosecution for perjury. You don't

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Speaker 6: want to answer these questions.

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Speaker 4: Do you I want to tell you why I did

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Speaker 4: what I did, what I said, what I said.

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Speaker 6: Do you realize that you have the right under the

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Speaker 6: United States Constitution and the Constitution of the State of

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Speaker 6: New York to refuse to answer any and all questions

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Speaker 6: concerning your last testimony As to this testimony, do you

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Speaker 6: want to plead the Fifth Amendment?

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Speaker 4: I plead the fifth.

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Speaker 2: Amount close enough. In any event, the judge dismisses her recantation.

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Speaker 2: He believes Scarcella and Ponsi Derek must have coerced her. Derek, though,

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Speaker 2: has a different view of Jewel. I don't think Ju

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Speaker 2: Smith know what the truth was. She don't give a

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Speaker 2: damn what the truth is anymore.

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Speaker 1: But I think we should know what the truth is.

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Speaker 1: I'm heading to the building where Nate Cash was killed.

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Speaker 1: The building's still there in Bedford Stuyvesant, Brooklyn. The neighborhood

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Speaker 1: has changed a lot there's a very expensive soap shop

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00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,520
Speaker 1: on the corner, for instance, but the actual building is

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Speaker 1: pretty much the same as it was thirty years ago.

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Speaker 1: There are even candles lit outside a memorial for someone

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Speaker 1: else recently killed. It's the nice Candelmann just picked the

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Speaker 1: log for us with a credit card. I'm walking through

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Speaker 1: the vestibule where Jewels said the murder occurred. I recorded

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Speaker 1: a few notes.

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Speaker 2: Wait a minute, you just broke in ducks.

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Speaker 1: The guy insisted he lived there. I'm now inside the

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Speaker 1: vestibule and it is cramped. With my arms to extended,

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Speaker 1: I can touch both walls. Jewel said. All the shots

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Speaker 1: were fired in this small space, with Derek and Nate

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Speaker 1: and Jewel all packed inside. I couldn't imagine two people

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Speaker 1: in here, let alone three. The next thing that caught

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Speaker 1: my attention, Jewel says she first saw Derek through the

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Speaker 1: door's window while she was coming down the stairs.

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Speaker 8: When we went downstairs, I observed because I was walking

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Speaker 8: in front and he was on the side of me.

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Speaker 8: I was looking through the glass of the door, and

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Speaker 8: that's when I observed Bush.

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Speaker 1: I walked down those stairs, and that's not possible. I

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Speaker 1: could not see the outside, which is where Derek was

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Speaker 1: supposed to have come from.

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Speaker 8: Then they ran out the building, brushed past him and

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Speaker 8: ran out the building, and he was running after them.

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Speaker 2: I remember you called me to tell me your alarm

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Speaker 2: bell started going off.

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Speaker 7: I mean, the story just doesn't work.

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Speaker 9: Could not have happened the way she says it does.

270
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Speaker 7: If you couldn't be doing all the things that she.

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Speaker 2: Said happened, it boggles the mind. It boggles the mind.

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Speaker 1: You think, if I'm seeing this, then a first grade

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Speaker 1: detective like Louis Scarcella, he ought to be suspicious too.

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Speaker 1: The more I looked, the more holes I found in

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Speaker 1: Jewel's story. I scoured the court transcripts and get this.

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Speaker 1: The ballistics report submitted by the prosecution's witness says Nate

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Speaker 1: Cash was killed by not one, but two guns.

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Speaker 2: And Jewel said that there was only one gun.

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Speaker 1: Jewel also said this about Nate.

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Speaker 4: He ran down the sphere and he was running after them,

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Speaker 4: and I was telling him, no, come back, come back.

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Speaker 3: Then he felled.

283
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Speaker 1: But the medical examiner's testimony at the trial was unequivocal.

284
00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:16,919
Speaker 1: Nate Cash could not have run anywhere. The medical examiner

285
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Speaker 1: said one shot blew off the top part of Nate

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Speaker 1: Cash's heart, another shot shattered his ankle in two places. Basically,

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Speaker 1: the medical examiner concluded Jules Smith's version of events was

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Speaker 1: virtually impossible.

289
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,920
Speaker 2: And didn't Louis Garcela say that he found shell casings

290
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,560
Speaker 2: around the body? And if Nate Cash was shot in

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00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,840
Speaker 2: the vestibule, why would the shellcasings be fifteen feet away

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Speaker 2: on the sidewalk. Shellcasings are ejected from the gun.

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Speaker 1: Oh and in that vestibule which Louis walked through, where

294
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Speaker 1: Jewel says Derek shot and shot and shot, no blood splatter.

295
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:08,360
Speaker 1: The ballistics evidence, the medical evidence, they show that Jewel's

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Speaker 1: story is false, plain and simple.

297
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Speaker 2: So what the hell happened in how did Derek get convicted?

298
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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what happened. To my mind, it's clear

299
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,920
Speaker 1: the prosecution lied. I don't see any other explanation. They

300
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,600
Speaker 1: simply misled the jury.

301
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:29,280
Speaker 2: How do you know?

302
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,760
Speaker 1: I was given a copy of the Conviction Review Units

303
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:37,880
Speaker 1: report on the case. This copy was mostly uninformative. Key

304
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:42,560
Speaker 1: sections were redacted covered in black ink, especially the most

305
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:48,439
Speaker 1: important section, the one labeled findings and Recommendations. Then I

306
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:50,919
Speaker 1: tracked down the unredacted version.

307
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Speaker 2: So this is a confidential report by the DA's unit

308
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:58,920
Speaker 2: that investigates questionable convictions. They clearly didn't want the whole

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00:20:58,960 --> 00:20:59,520
Speaker 2: story out.

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00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, this document is a revelation. Let's read a little

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Speaker 1: from it.

312
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 2: At the very top, it reads, quote, the scientific and

313
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:15,520
Speaker 2: medical evidence confirms that Smith misrepresented each and every material

314
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,760
Speaker 2: element of the shooting end quote. Let's just pause there

315
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,560
Speaker 2: for a second, like, Wow, this is an astonishing thing

316
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:27,280
Speaker 2: to just read each and every material element.

317
00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, that one shocked me. Remember the prosecutor in this

318
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 1: case was Anne Gutman. The CRU said she didn't quote

319
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 1: perceive the obvious flaws in Smith's narrative.

320
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, bullshit, the CRU. They're being nice to one of

321
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 2: their own. As far as I can tell, she either

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Speaker 2: lies or she's an idiot.

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Speaker 1: She's not an idiot, I'll tell you what, though. She's

324
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 1: got a lot of gall In her closing statement, she

325
00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,880
Speaker 1: tells the jury that the ballistics and medical evidence actually

326
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:07,359
Speaker 1: support Jule's testimony. Any jury who paid attention knows that's

327
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 1: patently false. But apparently Gutman sways the jury.

328
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Speaker 2: It takes twenty five years, but the CRU agrees with us.

329
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Speaker 2: The CRU concludes that Gutman failed to do justice failed

330
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Speaker 2: to do her job. The prosecutor quote has a duty

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Speaker 2: to present the evidence fairly to the jury, even at

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Speaker 2: the risk that doing so may result in the jury

333
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,879
Speaker 2: not crediting the testimony of the witness. In other words,

334
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Speaker 2: tell the damn truth.

335
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 1: The cru wondered if Gutman had already made up her mind,

336
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,200
Speaker 1: already convinced that Derek was a murderer and a criminal

337
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 1: kingpin who needed to be removed from society. Anne Gutman declined,

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Speaker 1: through a spokesperson to speak to us.

339
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 2: And I'll tell you this, Steve. It pisses me off.

340
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 2: Louie didn't even bother to question, He didn't even investigate

341
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,720
Speaker 2: the story Jewel told him.

342
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:13,879
Speaker 1: And I still want to know what the real story

343
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 1: is about Jewel, also about Detective Scarsella, and about Derrek Hamilton.

344
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:23,399
Speaker 1: And I don't think we can really know who to

345
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 1: believe until we talk to Jewel.

346
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 2: She's the one whom Louise said witnessed it all happen.

347
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:35,159
Speaker 2: She knows what he did or did not do. Jewel

348
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 2: should know if the murderer was pinned on Derek Hamilton.

349
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:43,159
Speaker 2: And after thirty years, I gotta believe she's ready to

350
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Speaker 2: have her truth told once and for all.

351
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Speaker 1: Dax I got her last known address. She's apparently moved

352
00:23:50,080 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 1: out of state, far far from Brooklyn. Oh, Hi, it's

353
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 1: Steve and Da.

354
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 9: That's in a minute, an give me a minute.

355
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,400
Speaker 2: I gotta wrap this stuff. Steve and I have traveled

356
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 2: seven hundred miles to try to find Jewel Smith. We're

357
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 2: in rural North Carolina, audio recorders ready to go, Hello, Hello, Hello.

358
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,479
Speaker 1: Jewel has no idea that we're looking for her, and

359
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 1: we have no idea if we're going to find her.

360
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 2: There is a tornado advisory in effect. The downtown just

361
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 2: one long street. All of its doors are shuttered. Early

362
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 2: people were putting plywood over their store windows.

363
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: It feels ominous. We searched for Jewel's house for a

364
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 1: couple of hours. We think we found it, though there's

365
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: no number on the house, but we did the math.

366
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: This has to be the one. We walk up a

367
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 1: long gravel driveway. The house is tucked into the woods,

368
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,719
Speaker 1: not visible from the street. There's a couple of cars

369
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 1: parked out front a tidy yard, flower beds, cut grass.

370
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: The house itself is one floor, kind of shaped like

371
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 1: a trailer, but bigger, and it looks like someone is home.

372
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 2: See if I remember my adrenaline pumping.

373
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 1: And I remember thinking, Dax, we rehearsed this. Come on,

374
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 1: we thought about it. If a boyfriend comes to the door,

375
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:56,879
Speaker 1: a kid, a husband, a woman shouts through the door

376
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,080
Speaker 1: but doesn't open it.

377
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 7: Oh hi, it's Steve and Dax.

378
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,120
Speaker 2: Well it's not coming out grade.

379
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 7: I can't even see you. Sorry.

380
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 2: We're a couple of storytellers working on a project.

381
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: I'm thinking the same thing storytellers.

382
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 2: This woman refuses to give her name or open the door,

383
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 2: which is why we can't hear her so well, that

384
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 2: and the cicadas. We have an actor saying her words

385
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 2: so you can hear them better. It's dusk, moving quickly

386
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 2: towards darkness, and the mosquitoes are about to come out,

387
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 2: and their dogs are barking in the distance.

388
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 1: So now we're confused. We did not anticipate a stranger

389
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 1: at the door. Luckily, you take over.

390
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 2: I was looking for miss Jewel Smith. I'll start from

391
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 2: the beginning because I know this is really awkward. She

392
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 2: was a witness in a trial.

393
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 1: Whoever this is claims the Jewel moved away.

394
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 10: You're coming into someone's life, right that don't even reside and.

395
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 3: Twenty years ago.

396
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 10: There's no clue what you're talking about, because you.

397
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 2: Have twenty five minutes past and we still have no

398
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 2: idea who we're talking to.

399
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 10: You're telling vit all.

400
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 2: I didn't say she did anything wrong.

401
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 1: She doesn't like that we just showed up at her door.

402
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 3: Here's the thing that's very unprofessional, very unprofessional.

403
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 2: The person behind the door then moves to a side

404
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 2: window and opens it from the bottom about six inches.

405
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 2: Her hand pokes out, but that's all. We still can't

406
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 2: see her face.

407
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: As she talks, she taps her finger on the window sill.

408
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: She taps it into the window sill like she's trying

409
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: to make a hole. I'm on the front stoop that

410
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 1: you're standing on the ground a few feet away. It's

411
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 1: really a bizarre scene.

412
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 10: Nobody cares what's going on in New York or what's

413
00:27:58,400 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 10: happening with other people.

414
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: She talks about Jewel, this person she seems to know

415
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: very well.

416
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 10: She built a whole new life for herself. She still

417
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,120
Speaker 10: kept on it, had to, still had to go through

418
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 10: the fight. They didn't care about her.

419
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 5: Then.

420
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 8: She was a product of the environment. They used her up.

421
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 10: This book is closed and locked, not involved this list.

422
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 1: So now we are forty five minutes. In several times

423
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: she threatens to call the police if we don't leave.

424
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: We don't leave, she doesn't call the police. Instead, she

425
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: keeps talking to.

426
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 9: Us, excuse gonn light me up out here.

427
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 7: I know, like my blood, madam.

428
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 2: So we go for it. At this point, what's there

429
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 2: to lose.

430
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 7: Here's this young woman with two kids. She's trying to

431
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 7: fight the judge, the courts, the police, trying to fight Derek.

432
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 7: Nobody's listening to her.

433
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: Nobody at all is listening to her, to us, to us,

434
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 1: Jewel Smith is a victim.

435
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 10: I'm not trying to keep reliving any of it.

436
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 8: I'm not gonna do it.

437
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 2: And suddenly she's talking in the first person.

438
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 8: I have three grandkids right now.

439
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 10: I cannot do it.

440
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 2: I'm not reliving any of this.

441
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 10: I'm not gonna do it.

442
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: It is Jewel, it is Juel Smith. Wow.

443
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 2: At this point I got to say I'm ready to leave.

444
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 2: I mean, this is uncomfortable, really uncomfortable. I mean, this

445
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 2: woman is clearly distraught. She doesn't want to go back

446
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 2: to that time. This is traumatic for her, and we

447
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 2: keep pushing.

448
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: Her I just can't leave. She wants to talk to us.

449
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: She's not leaving that window. We have come too far.

450
00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: It's been years, we've traveled seven hundred miles. Let's just

451
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: follow through. I want some answers, and I want to

452
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: hear it from her.

453
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 7: Nobody has had as close experience with Scarcella as you have.

454
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 2: I don't believe that.

455
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 8: I don't believe that because I didn't have the closest.

456
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 2: Relationship with him.

457
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 10: Hed he usually in different trials that I was a prostitute.

458
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 8: And that's what y'all need to be interview with her.

459
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: Teresa Gomez, the sex worker who helps Scarcela in at

460
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: least half a dozen cases.

461
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 7: She was killed.

462
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: Oh God, time is running out, she says she has

463
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: to go to work overnight. She's a nurse. It's her

464
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 1: second job.

465
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 2: This is our last conversation, our last chance.

466
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: We ask about Derek.

467
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 2: She's convinced that we're agents of Derek, that he sent

468
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: us to North Carolina to do his bidding, and that

469
00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 2: he's living the good life after receiving eleven million dollars

470
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 2: and settlements.

471
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 10: The man he has been exonerated. The man has got

472
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 10: his millions. He needed to sit his tied ass down

473
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 10: and think of something.

474
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 3: Else to do.

475
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 10: I went far beyond for the truth of this man,

476
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 10: so I mean to be told. So that's the level

477
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 10: of the ship I went through for the man, for

478
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,239
Speaker 10: the truth to be told, for somebody not to go

479
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 10: to jail for something they did to do.

480
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 2: So there it is. She says, it couldn't let a

481
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 2: man go to jail for something they didn't do.

482
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: We asked her what Scarcella did with her, did he

483
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: shape her story? She won't go there.

484
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 10: I've got doing it. I reopening.

485
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 4: I thought.

486
00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: Jewel followed Scarcella closely in the media. Her experience with him,

487
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: him and the system he was part of not good.

488
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 1: She'd come to a conclusion.

489
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 8: He was the dirty cot period point blank.

490
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: After that, it's time to go. We've overstayed there.

491
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 8: Welcome.

492
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 2: It's so weird. Was hurt the whole time?

493
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, she said it.

494
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 2: I couldn't let a man didn't do it go to jail.

495
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 7: I'll tell you that that relieves me enormously, enormously.

496
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 2: Man.

497
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: After we left North Carolina, I thought a lot about Jewel.

498
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 1: To me, it was clear Jewel Smith couldn't have seen

499
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: Derek do that. Shooting. She tried to say it several times.

500
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: She was not there, she'd gone to the store, and

501
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: that's why her story had so many holes in it.

502
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 1: But then I started thinking about her story again.

503
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 2: And I was deflated.

504
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: It occurred to me Jewel could not actually know.

505
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 2: That Derek was innocent.

506
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: She wasn't there, she was at the store. What she

507
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: can know is that she lied. She lied to please

508
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: the powers that be, Scarcella, Ponzi, Gutman. They knew Derek

509
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: and they didn't like him. They wanted him in jail,

510
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: and Jewel went along with it. But was Derek innocent?

511
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 2: Who knows? And on some level who cares? We can

512
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 2: say that he was not guilty, and maybe that's enough.

513
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: That's for sure. He should not have been convicted. The

514
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: evidence to convict wasn't there.

515
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 2: And remember what Candice Kurt said, the public aid attorney.

516
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 2: The system can't cheat, and in this case it clearly did.

517
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 2: That brings us back to Louis Scarcella.

518
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, Louis, What to do about Louis Scarcella? The first

519
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,280
Speaker 1: grade detective who didn't see there were two guns, who

520
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 1: did not figure out that Nate Cash could not have

521
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 1: run twenty feet to the sidewalk, that the vestibule didn't

522
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: have any blood splatter on it? What was Louis thinking?

523
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: And you know, after everything, he still stands by the conviction. Listen,

524
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: I've taken a long trip with Louis. I have given

525
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 1: him the benefit of the doubt, but now I have doubts.

526
00:34:52,960 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 2: Next the final interview, I did my job. I'm not

527
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 2: gonna say I'm sorry.

528
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: Maybe I will say I'm sorry. That's next time. On

529
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 1: our final episode, Hey your boy shaking join you? You're

530
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 1: gonna tell me.

531
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 2: I'm gonna turn on you. The Burden is created by

532
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: Steve Fishman. It's hosted and reported by Steve Fishman and myself,

533
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 2: Dax Devlyn Ross. Our story editor is Dan Bobkoff. Our

534
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 2: senior producer is Simon Rittner. Our producer is Sonam Skelly.

535
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Austin Smith. Our fact checker is

536
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 2: Sona Avakian. The production coordinator is Davon Paradise. Mixing and

537
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 2: sound design is provided by Mumble Media. Our executive producers

538
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 2: are Fisher Stevens, Steve Fishman, and Evan Williams. Additional production

539
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 2: help has been provided by Josie Holtzman, Isaac Kestenbaum, Naomi Brauner,

540
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 2: Lucy Souchek, Drew Nellis, Micah Hazel, Priscilla A. Labbi, Saxon Baird,

541
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 2: Katie Simon and Katie Springer. You want to give us

542
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 2: special thanks to Ellen Horn, Zach Stuart Pontier, Lizzie Jacobs,

543
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:19,320
Speaker 2: Nathan Tempe, to buy a Black, Rachel Morrissey, Mark Smirling

544
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:24,359
Speaker 2: and Lila Robinson. Special thanks to Marcy Wiseman. Special thanks

545
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 2: to our actors Kawana Jackson and Hugo Baker. We want

546
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 2: to thank our agents, Ben Davis and Marissa Horowitz. Legal

547
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 2: support has been provided by Mona Hook at MKSR ll P.

548
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 2: And a very special thanks to Evan Williams, one of

549
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 2: our executive producers and the person who made this podcast possible.

550
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 2: We are honored to feature the song Black Lightning from

551
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 2: The Bell Rays is our theme music. The Burden is

552
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 2: a production of Orbit Media and association with Signal Company.

553
00:36:52,080 --> 00:37:10,720
Speaker 1: Number one, Season two of The Burden Empire on Blood

554
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 1: will be available everywhere you get your podcasts on August seventh.

555
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:19,240
Speaker 1: All episodes will be available early and ad free, along

556
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 1: with exclusive bonus content on Orbit's newly launched True Crime Clubhouse,

557
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: our subscription channel on Apple Podcasts. It's only two ninety

558
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 1: nine a month.