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Speaker 1: The Hunting Collective is presented by Element. I guess I

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Speaker 1: grew up on a row. Hey everybody, welcome to another

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Speaker 1: episode of The Hunting Collective. I am Ben O'Brien. This

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Speaker 1: is episode one fifty seven. The Years almost over, Christmas

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Speaker 1: is upon us, and Phil Ty engineer is getting in

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Speaker 1: his long winter snap before he emerges in a hunter.

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Speaker 1: Hey Phil, Hey, I wish I could go down for

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Speaker 1: a long winter's nap. Um. I get I'm too excited

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Speaker 1: at Christmas to nap though. Now. My wife was just

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Speaker 1: talking to me about this. Do you guys send out

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Speaker 1: like a family Christmas card? We we usually do. We

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Speaker 1: did not this year. I think we just got lazy

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Speaker 1: and just didn't even care. Really, yeah, that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: We never, my wife is we never have since we've

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Speaker 1: had kids, We've never We've never done it, and we

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Speaker 1: were just having like a little bit of a debate

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Speaker 1: about is it weird to just send send people a

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Speaker 1: picture of you doing stuff once a year that says, like,

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Speaker 1: Merry Christmas. There is a picture of what we look like.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel it? Is that what you guys do? Uh? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that was pretty much it, and we didn't

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Speaker 1: start doing it until I mean, we've probably done it,

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Speaker 1: like we've done it for the last four years or something,

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Speaker 1: you know, since the my my parents do a thing

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Speaker 1: where they like they have like a whole right up

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Speaker 1: on their Christmas card. They like like a summary of

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Speaker 1: what every person in the family did that year, And um,

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Speaker 1: we have never done that. It's yeah, it's just been

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Speaker 1: like kind of like a goofy picture of us, like

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Speaker 1: looking cute, and then it says happy holidays, like maybe

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Speaker 1: the warmth spread to your loins or something. Yeah, warm

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Speaker 1: loins for you this holiday season, of course, warm warm loins. Now.

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Speaker 1: Charles Rodney, everybody knows my friend Charles Alls the Rabbitman.

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Speaker 1: Rodney been on the show many times. He writes a

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Speaker 1: full dissertation on the year's events. And I'm talking my

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Speaker 1: buddy sent me a copy of this. It's like, i'd say,

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Speaker 1: a thousand maybe two thousand words nicely typed up on

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Speaker 1: on a piece of paper and it's got like the

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Speaker 1: picture like a cover on the front. And then Charles

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Speaker 1: has collects these every year and he's gonna make him

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Speaker 1: into a book, and so hopefully we'll have one one week.

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Speaker 1: We'll just have him reading that to you. And that's

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Speaker 1: the entire episode. I won't even be on. Oh wow,

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Speaker 1: it'll probably be the most listened to episode of the

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Speaker 1: history of the show. Yeah, it'll be like it's it'll

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Speaker 1: be like someone reading towards the night before Christmas, but

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Speaker 1: it'll be Charles Rodney reading about his life. What happened,

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Speaker 1: what happened this year? It's beautiful. So hopefully you guys

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Speaker 1: feel free to send us what you guys do for

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Speaker 1: holiday cards. And if anybody out there wants to make

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Speaker 1: maybe photoshop at th HC what you feel like the

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Speaker 1: th HD holiday card would be, uh send send him over.

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Speaker 1: A lot of you guys are good at art, a

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Speaker 1: lot of you are good at photoshop. And uh, Phil,

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Speaker 1: he's so depressed that he might need need a laugh.

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Speaker 1: He might need something to laugh at this holiday season.

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Speaker 1: So get to work out there, no prizes, just get

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Speaker 1: to work. Um one one brief update before we move on.

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Speaker 1: I'm still not on the People of Maryland Facebook page

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Speaker 1: or Wikipedia page. I'm still not on there. Other many

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Speaker 1: many people tried to put me on there. They tried

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Speaker 1: everything you can think of. They describe me in almost

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Speaker 1: every way you could possibly think of. A lot of

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Speaker 1: people started putting COVID nineteen survivor on there, try to

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Speaker 1: really drum up some support and feeling. But it's it's

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Speaker 1: not working man, as of as of, as of right now,

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Speaker 1: I'm not on there. Many many people have tried dozens.

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Speaker 1: I hate to tell you, I think it's a lost cause.

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Speaker 1: Ben you think so there's nothing we can do. I've

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Speaker 1: got to do something of note. I've got to actually

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Speaker 1: do well. Maybe in one I'll do something of note

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Speaker 1: and save somebody from a train or something, and uh,

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Speaker 1: then I'll get on there. Yeah. Sure, I mean you

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Speaker 1: shoot shot man, set set high goals. That's that's healthy,

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Speaker 1: it's good. Maybe maybe one will stage a series of

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Speaker 1: life threatening events for you where I save you each time,

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Speaker 1: and then we'll have the news news there each time

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Speaker 1: to to report on it. Okay, well, well we'll we'll

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Speaker 1: have the Occult the cult board meet up and talk

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Speaker 1: over that idea. I'm I'm a big thumbs down on that.

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna tell you right off the bat. But

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Speaker 1: we we can brainstorm some more big thumbs down. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Shout out to barstool. They posted a thing like on

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Speaker 1: their Instagram saying name examples of things that are that

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Speaker 1: you joined, that you didn't think we're a cult, that

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Speaker 1: actually was a cult, and many of you tagged me

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Speaker 1: and Phil those posts. I probably got tagged fifteen twenty times,

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Speaker 1: So thanks for joining the cult. But coming up here

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Speaker 1: on this program is Clay Newcomb. Now Clay Bear Grease

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Speaker 1: Nukem is an employee of Mediator. Now, last time we

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Speaker 1: is on the show, he was not, but now he is.

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Speaker 1: We're happy about that. We got into all kinds of

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Speaker 1: things we nerded out about ethics and the slippery slope

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Speaker 1: fallacy and other logical fallacies, and we started talking and

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Speaker 1: we got deep into how we look at supporting hunting,

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Speaker 1: how we look at defending hunting, and how we we

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Speaker 1: test our own ideologies within what we do in the

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Speaker 1: hunting space. So there's a lot of really good stuff

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Speaker 1: in that. We're gonna get to that really quickly here.

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Speaker 1: But before we do, Phil, you must play the damn

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Speaker 1: jingle not so sharp moment. So if you don't have to, Philly,

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Speaker 1: you look scared. Sorry, I yelled, Yeah that was it

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Speaker 1: was aggressive. Um, but you know, hey, you've got to

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Speaker 1: use the stern hands sometimes, and I appreciate it because

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Speaker 1: sometimes you don't play the jingle and I get pissed.

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Speaker 1: Uh so this one is from in Subpoena and he says,

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Speaker 1: ben Phil. When it comes to not so sharp moments

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Speaker 1: in the field, my family has a few of them,

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Speaker 1: from shooting compound bows with no whearrows at giant bulls,

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Speaker 1: to having to shoot down trees or shotguns because the

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Speaker 1: goose got stuck in the canopy too. Now joining a

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Speaker 1: hunting based cult during a global pandemic. These are the

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Speaker 1: moments that come from a lifetime of hunting, and I

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Speaker 1: guess waking up way too early for days pon end. However,

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Speaker 1: when I think of a not so sharp moment, my

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Speaker 1: mind comes to one instance that happened a few years back.

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Speaker 1: On the Eastern Plains of Colorado. Me and my dad

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Speaker 1: went out for a rifle anteloupon in October for just

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Speaker 1: a couple of days. We both had obligations and this

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Speaker 1: hunt was going to be a quick getaway, so we

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Speaker 1: threw a hunting gear together and hopped in the car.

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Speaker 1: The year before had been a record rained year on

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Speaker 1: the plains, and since it was teel season, we decided

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Speaker 1: to throw a few decoys and shotguns in the trucks.

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Speaker 1: Just in case some birds were flying. And when we

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Speaker 1: got there, oh boy, where they flying. We quickly disched

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Speaker 1: our plan to hunt antelope on the first morning and

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Speaker 1: decided to hit a little prairie pothole that was swarming

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Speaker 1: with green winged teal the night before. We got to

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Speaker 1: our spot before first light and began throwing out some decoys. Now,

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Speaker 1: because of the warm weather at the time and the

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Speaker 1: fact that both of us forgot our hip boots, we

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Speaker 1: figured we would just pull our pants up and wade

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Speaker 1: into the water to pick everything up. And usually these

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Speaker 1: little ponds on the prairie are a little more than

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Speaker 1: a couple of feet deep, that is, in a regular year.

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Speaker 1: As soon as the sun rose, teal came dive bombing

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Speaker 1: in one flock after another, and we soon had a

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Speaker 1: limit of teal. And when the time came to pick

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Speaker 1: up ducks and decoys, that's when the show started, the

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Speaker 1: real show. I rolled up my pants and took three

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Speaker 1: steps into the water, and on the fourth I sank

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Speaker 1: two feet into the murky, thick mud at the bottom

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Speaker 1: of the pond, completely soaking my pants, which in fact,

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Speaker 1: were the only pair I had brought. My dad sat

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Speaker 1: on the shore laughing his ass off, and I was

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Speaker 1: in a predicament. The mud was almost like quicksand, and

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Speaker 1: I had to use a lot of energy just to

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Speaker 1: move one single foot. We still had twelve decoys and

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Speaker 1: five teal in the middle of this pond that needed

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Speaker 1: to be picked up, so I decided to say screw

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Speaker 1: it and just weighed in. I was past the point

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Speaker 1: of no return while in the water. Without my knowledge,

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Speaker 1: my pants had unrolled and gotten stuck in the mud

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Speaker 1: along with my feet. The next step I took did

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Speaker 1: two things simultaneously. It pulled my pants down and into

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Speaker 1: the murky water, and got my legs tangled up in

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Speaker 1: the pants to the point where I lost my balance

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Speaker 1: and face planted right into the green marsh water. My

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Speaker 1: dad had never laughed so hard, and I had never

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Speaker 1: been the victim of such malicious and random circumstances in

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Speaker 1: my life. I picked myself up from the mud, swam out,

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Speaker 1: got the ducks and the decoys, and whimpered back to shore,

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Speaker 1: having wet my only clothes and broken my pride. Antelope

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Speaker 1: pump was cucked short, But for my dad, he brought

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Speaker 1: home a favorite tale to tell at any family gathering.

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Speaker 1: We got back home and cooked up a delicious teal

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Speaker 1: dinner at which my dad now famously calls plata David Guenza,

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Speaker 1: which is translated to duck of shame. Play the jingle, Phil,

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Speaker 1: not so sharp moment, so you don't have to me?

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Speaker 1: All right, what do you think about duck a shame? Phil?

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Speaker 1: Have you ever seen The Never Ending Story? Then? Yes

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Speaker 1: I have, Yeah, I just I was just picturing him

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Speaker 1: just sinking deeper and deeper into the mud um while

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Speaker 1: I cried. That's that's how I felt. Oh well, so sorry.

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Speaker 1: The only thing I remember from Never Any Stories that

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Speaker 1: the flying dog, and I believe his name was Falcore

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Speaker 1: or something like that creepiest flying dragon dog thing. That's

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Speaker 1: all I remember. That's part of it. There's also a

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Speaker 1: scene where where a horror horse drowns in quicksams. Ah,

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Speaker 1: so you were picturing that horse when you were thinking,

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Speaker 1: are are our great listener? Ryan? Subpoena will Ryan, congratulations

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Speaker 1: for getting your pants pulled off by some mud. Well,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna send you a work sharp field sharpener for

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Speaker 1: all your troubles, and of course, as always, go to

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Speaker 1: work sharp dot com or go to the work sharp

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Speaker 1: YouTube page to check out those folks, and they're weekly

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Speaker 1: sharpening tips. One of those is me sharpen and stuff

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Speaker 1: in my garage, So you're really going to enjoy that.

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Speaker 1: And then next week we have the great showdown of

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Speaker 1: all the dumbest things you all have done in the

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Speaker 1: cult this year, and a big time prize for the

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Speaker 1: big time winner of the not so sharp moment of

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Speaker 1: the year next week on the final episode of twenty Okay, Phil,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna need we're gonna need you to put your

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Speaker 1: doctor Phil had On. Okay, can you do that for me? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let me go grab it? All right, come on right back.

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Speaker 1: Phil's back, He's got his Dr Phil had On, and

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Speaker 1: we've got we've got to solve some issues, some deep

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Speaker 1: seated issues within the hunting space. Now we we already

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Speaker 1: said that. Clay Newcombe and myself, we're gonna be talking

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Speaker 1: a lot about, you know, the intricacies of hunting, hunting ethics,

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Speaker 1: how we support each other, how we talk about and

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Speaker 1: to each other, and what we say in the public

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Speaker 1: forum to defend hunting, defend each other. This email I

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Speaker 1: got from Michael Buchanan gets to that point pretty well.

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Speaker 1: He says, I was listening to the episode one four,

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Speaker 1: where you and Mark Kenyan were talking about supporting our

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Speaker 1: hunting culture and our fellow hunters. You can tell he's

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Speaker 1: from the South because the next sentence starts with y'all's

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Speaker 1: conversation made me realize I'm negative. I have been recently

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Speaker 1: towards a selection of hunters in my current area. I

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Speaker 1: girl up hunting White Tales and the Georgia Piedmont on

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Speaker 1: a private hunting lease. I wouldn't say the habitat was

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Speaker 1: that well managed there, but the hunting was good and

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Speaker 1: you could count on a club member to get at

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Speaker 1: least a hundred twenty class block every other year. Well,

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Speaker 1: I finished up my masters at U g A at

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Speaker 1: a foresty job in North Carolina. Company I work for

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Speaker 1: owns land in southeastern Virginia and northeastern North Carolina, and

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Speaker 1: I'm blessed to have around six acres of company land

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Speaker 1: a hunt in both states. Initially I built on my

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Speaker 1: head how I now had a realistic opportunity to kill

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Speaker 1: multiple big deer year and was super stoked for this

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Speaker 1: hunting season. Well, there's a type of hunting there. I

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Speaker 1: wasn't prepared for dog hunters. Now, Phil, I know what

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Speaker 1: you're thinking people aren't hunting dogs. They're using dogs to hunt. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I was worried. Thank you. Yeah, I could see you

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Speaker 1: getting worried over there, he said. My expectations at the

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Speaker 1: start of the season were that the occasional dog would

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Speaker 1: cross me in the woods. The reality is once rifle

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Speaker 1: season kicks in, you occasionally don't encounter hounds chasing deer,

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Speaker 1: which means most of the time you see them. The

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Speaker 1: days of my quiet sits in the tree stand on

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Speaker 1: Saturday during a rifle season are over. Trail camp footage

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Speaker 1: has shown that it didn't take very long for the

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Speaker 1: pressure to push deer to be more nocturnal, as well

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Speaker 1: as show me that dogs are running deer across land,

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Speaker 1: least to their own hunters. The typical dog hunter will

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Speaker 1: tell you you can't dogs can't read post its signs,

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Speaker 1: but they don't tell you that plenty of them release

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Speaker 1: their dogs on land they can't hunt with the intention

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Speaker 1: of pushing deer onto property they can hunt. This is

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Speaker 1: a general lackadaisical attitude towards dogs running deer on land

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Speaker 1: they don't have permission on, and it leaves a sour

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Speaker 1: taste in my mouth. In Virginia east of the Blue Ridge.

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Speaker 1: Either if a landowner tells the dog hunter not to

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Speaker 1: come on their property. Dog hunters have the legal rights

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Speaker 1: to retrieve their dogs at any hour of the day,

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Speaker 1: as long as they don't carry a gun, allowing them

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Speaker 1: to run deer across their land even if they don't

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Speaker 1: have permission. I'm trying to put a positive spin on things,

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Speaker 1: but by saying I now have more opportunities for grouse, ducks, woodcock,

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Speaker 1: and quail, but I'm still bitter. I guess my question

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Speaker 1: is am I in the wrong for wanting legislations to

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Speaker 1: sort of rein in the dog hunters, either through a

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Speaker 1: contiguous acres limitation or its own later season. Still, hunting

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Speaker 1: is definitely a minority in this area, so it's not

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Speaker 1: like our opinions carried that much weight compared to the

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Speaker 1: dog hunters, But we're dog hunting to fall out of

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Speaker 1: legal favor. I have a hard time feeling bad for them,

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Speaker 1: trying to stay positive, but having a hard time over

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Speaker 1: there in the South. Michael Buchanan, Phil, do you have

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Speaker 1: do when you think of running deer with dogs? Do

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Speaker 1: you have anything that comes to mind? Do you kind

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Speaker 1: of WinCE at the idea that people would be chasing

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Speaker 1: deer with dogs and shooting him on the run, or

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Speaker 1: do you feel like it's that's a normal thing. I

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Speaker 1: that honestly doesn't really jump out at me. Is something

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Speaker 1: that is uh like egregious. Um, I like, honestly, I

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Speaker 1: kind of fall into the more like, if you're gonna

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Speaker 1: try to still hunt in that kind of environment, that's

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Speaker 1: just something you have to deal with. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't see legislation being like a feasible solution.

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Speaker 1: I don't know about you. Well, uh, dog hunting, hunting

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Speaker 1: with deer with dogs specifically is outlawed, and I think

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Speaker 1: all but eight states point okay, this is this is

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Speaker 1: news to me then? Yeah, I mean dog dog hunting

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Speaker 1: has been going on, you know, using dovest coated k

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Speaker 1: nines to chase you know, wild animals right as were

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Speaker 1: going on for thousands of years, fifteen thousand years and

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Speaker 1: some and some estimations. Yeah, I guess we should note

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Speaker 1: that that dog hunting is commonly how we refer to this,

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Speaker 1: but we're not hunting dogs, as I said. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: in in in the mid seventeen hundreds and into the

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Speaker 1: late eighteen hundreds and into the turn of the century,

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Speaker 1: even in this country, there was a lot of pushback

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Speaker 1: for hunting deer, specifically with dogs. I looked up some

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Speaker 1: of the legislation. The Virginia House of Burgesses past a

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Speaker 1: law in seventeen thirty eight that required owners of deer

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Speaker 1: dogs to keep their animals confined except when they were

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Speaker 1: actually involved in a deer hunt. Eighteen seventy six, wis

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Speaker 1: Constant became the first state to ban dog hunting altogether.

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Speaker 1: The Adirondack Deer Law of eighteen eighty eight imposed tight

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Speaker 1: structures and restrictions on dog hunting in New York, and

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Speaker 1: then by all the Northeastern eates that outlawed dog hunting

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Speaker 1: for deer altogether. In today, Phil, Uh, it's a it's

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Speaker 1: a predominantly Deep South legality. You know. The states where

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Speaker 1: this is still legal are spread across the South, and

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Speaker 1: many of the states that that Michael was talking about,

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Speaker 1: and many of the states that I've never hunted for

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Speaker 1: deer is where this is legal. So I've never run

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Speaker 1: across this in the woods. I don't know a whole

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Speaker 1: a whole lot about the tradition itself. I've never that

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Speaker 1: I can think I've run deer with dogs, run other things,

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Speaker 1: many other things with with dogs, including upland game birds, pigs,

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Speaker 1: um Man, I can think of other things that I've

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Speaker 1: used used dogs in the field for. But um I

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Speaker 1: think this is an interesting thing for us to think about,

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Speaker 1: especially because what we're gonna be talking about in a

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Speaker 1: minute with Clay Newcombe that we have these and we've

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Speaker 1: we've certainly talked about this on this show before. We

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Speaker 1: have these dividing lines in the in America around the pursuit,

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Speaker 1: even within the same species, how we pursue those species,

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Speaker 1: and then the prospective culturally and the traditions and how

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Speaker 1: we socialize all these ideas, and so Michael is not

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Speaker 1: wrong to probably have some disdain for people running dogs

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Speaker 1: places they shouldn't be and and quite honestly, in places

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Speaker 1: where like Virginia where this has been studied before, I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of what what comes out is that,

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Speaker 1: you know, deer hunting deer with dogs is an important

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Speaker 1: tradition and it helps manage deer like any other type

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Speaker 1: of hunting, but it generates concerns from hunters, landowners, everybody,

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Speaker 1: and most of those concerns are around trespassing dogs, trespassing hunters,

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Speaker 1: hunting from near roads, and a lot of this borders

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Speaker 1: on just just ethical issues and so, um, it's interesting

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Speaker 1: to hear you say, Phil that that as a non hunter,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like a big deal. Do you feel

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Speaker 1: like this because you know that we use dogs for

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Speaker 1: others other things? Yeah? I think so. Maybe I've just

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Speaker 1: been spending too much time editing Cal's podcast where it's

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Speaker 1: just become the Snort Show where he's just constantly talking

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Speaker 1: about how adorable his dog is. Um. But and I like,

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Speaker 1: that's that's weird. Yeah, I feel like I'm pretty like

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Speaker 1: sensitive to this kind of stuff. So it doesn't and

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Speaker 1: it doesn't really it doesn't really irk me, So I don't. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I can't explain why that's interesting. Man, I don't have

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Speaker 1: a problem with it. Um But if I was in

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Speaker 1: Michael's situation, sitting in a tree standing, dogs are running

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Speaker 1: by all day and I felt like my rifle season

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Speaker 1: was ruined, I probably would think differently. You know, but

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Speaker 1: there's deer hunters who believe that our sport is under attack,

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Speaker 1: and they they might be surprised to learn that the

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Speaker 1: country as a whole probably still overwhelmly supports the preservation

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Speaker 1: of this tradition a lot of other traditions. But as

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Speaker 1: you'll hear us talk about with Clay nucom in a

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Speaker 1: second here, there's not a lot of folks fighting for

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Speaker 1: these type of what I would call fringe uh privileges

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Speaker 1: or fringe pursuits at the very least in our space.

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Speaker 1: And it's so it creates quite the paradox, and it

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Speaker 1: is hard to understand, um where people in Alabama and

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Speaker 1: Georgia and North Carolina might be coming from. If you're

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Speaker 1: sitting in Montana or Connecticut or California or someplace where

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Speaker 1: it might seem abhorrant to even think about chasing deer

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Speaker 1: with dogs um at all. So I say all this

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Speaker 1: to say, this is a great example of what we're

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Speaker 1: what you're gonna hear me and Clay Nukem talk about

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Speaker 1: something like I said, that's paradoxical in nature, something that's

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Speaker 1: hard for us to to suss out, not having been

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Speaker 1: in that southern deer hunting culture with dogs and um.

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Speaker 1: Glad to hear Phil that you it's not right off

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Speaker 1: the bat as you first hear about. It's something that

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Speaker 1: you think is is uh you know a worry for

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Speaker 1: you ethically or as somebody who's about to join the

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Speaker 1: hunting cult. Um, something you might turn your eye towards

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Speaker 1: if if you hear about it. Yeah, I just gotta

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Speaker 1: get Mango to a trainer as soon as possible. Oh yeah, Mango.

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Speaker 1: Would Mangie think Mango would Uh she would definitely chase

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Speaker 1: deer right, oh yeah, very poorly, but she would do

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Speaker 1: it and she'd be stoked about it. Well, um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would go back to I was reading this once

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Speaker 1: I read this email from Michael. I went back and

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Speaker 1: I was reading this Virginia Department of Game and Inland

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Speaker 1: Fisher's report from years ago, from like a decade ago

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Speaker 1: called Honey with Hounds Away Forward, and it listed out

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Speaker 1: the two sides of this. And this is two thousand seven,

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Speaker 1: so we're some thirteen years later and we're still there.

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Speaker 1: And I think as long as deer hunting with dogs

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Speaker 1: and those states holds will still have those same sort

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Speaker 1: of back and force. Um. If you've ever been to

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Speaker 1: the Blue Ridge Mountains, it's a beautiful place, and there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of people that would tell you the way

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Speaker 1: of life is chasing deer with dogs. How dare you

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Speaker 1: try to ban it because you don't like it. Um.

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Speaker 1: But as you'll see, there's plenty of people that don't

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Speaker 1: hunt that we would we'd call anti hunters that are

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Speaker 1: happy to take advantage of this, this argument within the

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Speaker 1: hunting ranks, of this disagreement within the hunting ranks. So

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Speaker 1: it is full of shades of gray. We're gonna discuss

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Speaker 1: just that this week with our buddy guard the gate Man,

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Speaker 1: Clay Knewcom. Please enjoy Clay knucom. What is up, Hey,

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Speaker 1: Bend O'Brien. I'm doing good, man, I'm doing good. It's

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Speaker 1: cold here in Arkansas, a little snow on the ground.

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Speaker 1: That's kind of what's up. That is what's up? You've

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Speaker 1: had you haven't really caught up these sense the breaks,

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Speaker 1: a lot of news sense. Then you now are a

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Speaker 1: meat eater. You're a meat eating son of a son

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Speaker 1: of a bee. That's what you are right now. Yeah, man, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've been working for I've been working for Meat Eaters

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Speaker 1: since October five, and uh yeah, it's been it's been

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Speaker 1: an exciting run so far, working on a lot of projects.

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Speaker 1: And I'm still publishing Bare Honeting magazine, so that's still that.

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Speaker 1: I still do that. But I'm also working full time

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Speaker 1: for meat Eater, so well, we're damn glad to have you.

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Speaker 1: If you haven't seen what Clay has been up to,

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Speaker 1: you've been you've been, uh really missing out. We have

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Speaker 1: a video on acorns on the website acorn has been acorns.

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Speaker 1: I mean that I know, I know Ronnella is hot

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Speaker 1: on this this debate. I feel you don't want to

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Speaker 1: get involved. I don't really want to get involved. No,

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Speaker 1: I'll say whatever you want me to say. I will

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Speaker 1: capitulate in this. Acorns all good to me? A K

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Speaker 1: E r N S acorns I'm in. I'm yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And if I need to defend that against Steve, I

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Speaker 1: take your side and we'll we'll put him down. Don't work.

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Speaker 1: That's what I like about you been yep, I will

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Speaker 1: understand it. About of the country pronounces that word as acorns.

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Speaker 1: The seventy would pronounce it the other way, which is

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Speaker 1: not even possible to come out of my mouth. I

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Speaker 1: can't even say it. Yeah, more power to however you

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Speaker 1: want to do it though. Yeah, I mean, I blame

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Speaker 1: the liberal media is what I blame for this, for this, uh,

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Speaker 1: for they are they're mistreating acorns, and you and I

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Speaker 1: will stand against it. There you go. I will stand

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Speaker 1: next to you or behind you, wherever, or in front

426
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 1: of you, wherever I gotta stand. Don't worry. Yeah, yeah,

427
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:46,119
Speaker 1: I got it. Well, there's a bunch of in all series.

428
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: There's a bunch of good content on the mediator dot com.

429
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,479
Speaker 1: You and I are feverishly hammering away on this secret

430
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: podcast that will soon uh reach these air waves of

431
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,040
Speaker 1: the Meat Eat Podcast network, So look look forward to that,

432
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 1: of course. But we're also want to tell everybody that

433
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,880
Speaker 1: we're gonna have you at some regular cadence next year,

434
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 1: probably monthly once a month, to come on and update

435
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 1: us on a philosophy that you introduced to us. I

436
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 1: want to say, oh, a year and some change ago

437
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 1: on this show, and I'm sure talked about it on

438
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: the media podcast as well. Really, um, you came in

439
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 1: and you gave what I would call it soliloquy on

440
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,400
Speaker 1: this subject, and you like turned me a little bit,

441
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 1: you turned my you change my perspective a bit on

442
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 1: and we were just talking before it hit record, and

443
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 1: I think a few things you said at home, but

444
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: this philosophy explained to people who haven't heard this, this

445
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:47,400
Speaker 1: philosophy around this term guard the gate been So this

446
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: idea of guard the gate is essentially that inside of

447
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:57,880
Speaker 1: North American hunting the the entry point for those who

448
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 1: would seek to um tear down. And that's just that's

449
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,640
Speaker 1: just the truth, that's not a spin. I mean, there

450
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 1: are active groups of people, very well funded, very well organized,

451
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 1: that have made it there life goal, their career goals

452
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 1: to to dismantle North American hunting. And there's very many

453
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 1: reasons why people do this. There's I mean, it's massively complex,

454
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 1: and I think we would all know some of these reasons.

455
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 1: But these these groups always are gonna attack, They're gonna

456
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: they're gonna find an entry point into our sphere through

457
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: a specific place, and usually that place is a weak

458
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: point inside of our world. And just this most simple

459
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 1: example to me is bear hunting. So if you were

460
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 1: to look at North American hunting in general, like the

461
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 1: rational arguments against squirrel hunting or elk hunting even would

462
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: be you know, it's really easy for people to connect

463
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 1: with the idea of eating elk. It's easy for them

464
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 1: to connect with the idea of well, maybe not squirrel hunting,

465
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 1: but white tail hunting eating a white tail. Bears are

466
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 1: these charismatic megafauna. It's it's very easy for people to

467
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 1: build a narrative that people buy into that bears shouldn't

468
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: be hunted. There's different methods of hunting bears that are

469
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 1: hard to understand for some people. We use hounds to

470
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,239
Speaker 1: chase bears, We use bait to chase bears. So it

471
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: creates basically a gateway, a low hanging fruit, a soft

472
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 1: entry point for people to go, hey, this is bad.

473
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:45,439
Speaker 1: These guys are barbarians. And I think in in times past,

474
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,719
Speaker 1: the hunting community has recognized that. I mean people like

475
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 1: by default, like by unconscious default, recognize that and naturally

476
00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: steer away from some of these lower hand in fruit

477
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:05,199
Speaker 1: type situations which would be trapping as well. Um And

478
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: but the thing is is that if they can take that,

479
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 1: if they can tear down that from an intellectual standpoint,

480
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 1: from a legislative standpoint, even from a non intellectual standpoint,

481
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:24,199
Speaker 1: if they can tear down why hunting bears is no

482
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: longer relevant, If they can tear that down and turn

483
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,199
Speaker 1: that into functional legislation, turn that into the way that

484
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,919
Speaker 1: the culture is shifted, then it's just a matter of

485
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,199
Speaker 1: time before they do that with something else. Because the

486
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 1: truth is when you really understand bear hunting, when you

487
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: understand it as a management tool, when you understand that

488
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: we utilize bears more than I say this all the time, Ben,

489
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: and I mean honestly, Like if we were sitting in

490
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: a court of law and I had to plead my

491
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 1: case of why you should kill a bear over killing

492
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 1: a deer, I think I would win because we use

493
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 1: more of a bear for utilitary and purpose then we

494
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: do a deer. I mean, we tan the hide and

495
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 1: use the fact we use the meat. So my point

496
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 1: is is that, uh, any weak point in our architecture

497
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: is bad news for all of us. So if we

498
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 1: are people that are interested in the preservation of the

499
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 1: North American honey model and our culture, North American hunting culture,

500
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 1: then it's in it's in all of our best interest

501
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: to guard these lower hanging fruits, to guard the gate.

502
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: And that's that's a stretch for people, because not everybody

503
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: is interested in bait and bears. Not everybody is interested

504
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 1: in following a hound and killing a bear over a hound.

505
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: And and and our point is is that you don't

506
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: have to be interested in that we're not trying to

507
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: tell everybody they need to do that, but we are

508
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: saying if you love, if you love what we have,

509
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: then it's in your best interests to guard it at all.

510
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: So like this, it's an idea of unification. It's also

511
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: guard the gate is an idea. So actually guarding the

512
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: gate means that we're educating people. We're educating people about

513
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: bear hunting, about trapping, about why these things really are

514
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 1: absolutely is just just as legit as all these other

515
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 1: types of hunting that people are very comfortable with. Yeah, yeah, well,

516
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: there's so much within that that gets that interests me

517
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: and and the reason why I think we can do

518
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: it once and more we probably do it once a

519
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: day or once a week. Once we'll go through here

520
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: some of the instances of of where hunting is being

521
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: attacked as you described there as on the fringes. But

522
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: there's a couple of things within the guard the Gate

523
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: mentality that I agree with, and there's some things I

524
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: want to talk through with you um here and I

525
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: think we did last time in folks and go to

526
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 1: here are whiskey and ethics on on bear baiting and

527
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 1: bear hunting that we did last year with Clay. But

528
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: you know, there's the slippery slope argument, right like in

529
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,719
Speaker 1: a in a legal sense, the slippery slope argument asserts

530
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: that you know what, in logic and critical thinking, and

531
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: then this often comes in political rhetoric and rhetoric we're

532
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: here on the media that a relatively small first step

533
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: leads to a chain of related events culminating in like

534
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: something something happened of more significance, and that leads to

535
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: the logical fallacy within the slippery slope argument that I've

536
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: always had a problem with. I understand it, but I've

537
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: always kind of had a problem with it. And the

538
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 1: way that I think you can bat this slippery slope fallacy,

539
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: the logical fallacy within, is to make a case or

540
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 1: to demonstrate an example of that slippery slope logic coming

541
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: into play, right Like if if somebody gets in for bears,

542
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: I guess first I would ask you that question, do

543
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: you feel like we're on a slippery slope here? Is that?

544
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: Does that align with the guard to gate mentality or

545
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: is there a little more It's part of it, Ben, Yeah,

546
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: And I realized how that could be perceived. It's trying

547
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 1: to make people fearful in order to cause them to

548
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: act and um, because yeah, I am saying that it

549
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: is a slippery slope and we've got tons of But

550
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: what I'm also saying is that, I mean, we've got

551
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: you know, a hundred and fifty years of a hundred

552
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: years of of history and examples of that slippery slope happening.

553
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: I mean, and it's happening this week in you know,

554
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: in different parts of the country. So so it's not

555
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: it's not just it's not just rhetoric. There's actual examples

556
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: of hunts being taken away that will probably never get back. Yeah,

557
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 1: And that's it. That's that's where I kind of draw

558
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: the line with the with the logical fallacy within the

559
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: slippery slope arguments is if we're able to damage trade,

560
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: if we're able to look at the slipper Soper argument,

561
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: because it happens with Second Amendment. It happens, really, it

562
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: happens in a lot of rhetorical conversations like this one

563
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 1: where someone is presenting an idea and that person is

564
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,479
Speaker 1: is using that idea to to eliminate the middle ground.

565
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: Is to say, like, we can't we can't have a

566
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: middle ground because if we give an inch, we're gonna

567
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: lose the middle ground and possibly lose it all. Um.

568
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: So I I would uh admit to some conflict over

569
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: this idea because I do see some logical fallacies, um

570
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: within the argument, But I also see some things that

571
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: are real here, and we're gonna go over some of

572
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 1: them in this case. So as we often get into

573
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: in this podcast, where things get interesting is where you

574
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 1: have a duality, where you have a dualism at play, right,

575
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 1: where you have like hey, listen, man, the slippery soap

576
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: argument in this case rings true because we there are

577
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: some examples here, but we also have to really be

578
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: cognizant of slipping down into our own logical fallacies and

579
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 1: losing the middle ground ourselves. So that's why that's that's

580
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: ultimately why I think this is a topic that we

581
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: can go on and on and on and on about

582
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: because I think those two things are are likely true

583
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: at once here or at least parallel to each other,

584
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: you know. Um yeah, And And does that does that

585
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: track with with how you'd like to explore this? Because

586
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 1: I a man, I really think that we're and we're

587
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 1: gonna go over some examples here. But like I said,

588
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: but I really think there is. Once we crack this open,

589
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 1: we're gonna discover something about ourselves and the way we

590
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: think about um, our own hunting pursuits, and and folks

591
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: that come along with that. Yeah, it sounds fair enough

592
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: to me, Ben, really, and I think it will help

593
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: me understand this even more here and you talk, I mean,

594
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: because I I don't want to be an alarmist. Uh,

595
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 1: you know, I want to be somebody that's got both

596
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: feet plugged right into reality, you know, with a with

597
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: a intent to find solutions, you know. I mean. The

598
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: good news is that we've still got a lot of

599
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 1: great stuff going on in North American hunting. We but

600
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:21,879
Speaker 1: humans are extremely comfortable with everything being good today with

601
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 1: a negative forecast for tomorrow and us not being that

602
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 1: worried about it. So we might as well, we might

603
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 1: as well have this conversation. Oh well, and then you

604
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: get into the all of the metaphors and all the

605
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: things that are happening here. There's the domino fallacy, There's

606
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: like the damn burst fallacy. There's all these like really

607
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: interesting concepts that can help structure how you think about things. Um.

608
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 1: And maybe I'm just nerd ing out on on this,

609
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 1: but I do think that I don't think maybe is

610
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: a is a really a question here totally. Let's deep.

611
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: Let's go deep. Um. Yeah, this is definitely in the

612
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: Happy Hour podcasts like we had last week. But I

613
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: do think I want to explore how, you know, the

614
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 1: ways we construct these arguments and the ways that we

615
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 1: present them, and the ways that that we're we're influenced

616
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: by what's happening around us, and as you said before

617
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: we hit record, find a way to not be alarmist,

618
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: to not be fearmongering, to not fall into many of

619
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: the traps that we see in mainstream medium, any of

620
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 1: the traps that we here in our own um divided

621
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 1: space within hunting, and so ultimately to take apart you know,

622
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,439
Speaker 1: what someone might use as as political rhetoric and find

623
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: a healthy way to examine the important stuff baked within that,

624
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: you know, the real the core idea that we need

625
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: to crunch through and have some uncomfortable conversations about and um.

626
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: And so that's what I look forward to and I

627
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,919
Speaker 1: know we will UM, and I appreciate you coming along

628
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: for that ride. Yeah, man, I just jotted down a

629
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 1: couple of a couple of states and provinces that have

630
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 1: lost significant portions of their bear hunting been and just

631
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 1: just I mean California main spring hunt, British Columbia grizzly hunt,

632
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: Colorado lost um hounds and bait lost their spring hunt.

633
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: There's there's just so many examples for examples, Well we'll

634
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: go let's go through some because you know we we

635
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: talked with Brian lenn from the Sports's Alliance here some

636
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: weeks ago about about the new Jersey bear situation, and

637
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 1: we went over this. We went over and I agree,

638
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 1: and I told him, I said, in addressing the hunting

639
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 1: industry dogma, when I first took off this podcast, I

640
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: wanted to kind of address is turviy hunting good or bad?

641
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 1: You know, is bear hunting good or bad? Is baiting

642
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,399
Speaker 1: good or bad? And actually address it and look at

643
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 1: it and not just accept what I was told in

644
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 1: the hunting industry, you know, accept the dogma from our

645
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: world and really beat at this. A couple of things

646
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: I've learned. One um ideological veganism is misguided. In my opinion,

647
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 1: I've explored that in depth, and I think it's misguided.

648
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: And I also think the animal rights mentality is misguided.

649
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,280
Speaker 1: In a lot of ways. And I think those animal

650
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: rights ideology is something that leads if you, I hope

651
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 1: you would agree that it leads people to want a

652
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 1: band bear hunting, that leads people to want to kick

653
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 1: the gate in and change things within within where we're

654
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: at um. And so I think that's that exploration means

655
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 1: something here because we have to determine why, you know,

656
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,760
Speaker 1: why are people fighting so hard against uh, particularly bear hunting,

657
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: but in a sense hunting on its fringes and trapping too. Yeah,

658
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 1: so dive you So let's I mean give us that

659
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 1: you have a good example you're telling about from Washington State.

660
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 1: I feel like we need a real concrete example of

661
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: something that's happening now in our context for COVID times

662
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: even might be might be nice. We have an example

663
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: from Washington. Last last week I talked to the lady

664
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 1: named Marie new Miller. She's with the Inland or the

665
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 1: West Wildlife Council, which they are a a hunting conservation

666
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 1: group out of Washington, focused on focused on Washington, but

667
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: I think they're focused on the Pacific Northwest, but they're

668
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 1: based out of Washington. She wrote in actually to meet

669
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 1: eater and and and told the story of a a

670
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 1: Washington State Game Commission meeting that she was in attendance

671
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 1: to virtually because of cod and she often goes to these,

672
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 1: so she's got a lot of experience. And basically because

673
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: the spring bear hunt in Washington, which is pretty limited,

674
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 1: it's a as I understand it, it's a draw. It's

675
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 1: a quite limited spring season. But they do have a

676
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,399
Speaker 1: spring season in Washington. And she said that because it

677
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: was the first big game hunt of the spring, came

678
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,800
Speaker 1: up in this order in their session. And a couple

679
00:38:55,800 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 1: of things that were interesting is that there were she said,

680
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: there were twelve people that stood up to spoke to

681
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: not stood up. They they were online, but they spoke

682
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:12,280
Speaker 1: about it, zoomed in, they spoke out against the bear hunt.

683
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 1: And as I understood it, it was kind of led

684
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 1: by an out of state special interest anti hunting mountain

685
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: lion group out of California. And so basically inside this meeting,

686
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: you know the dynamic dynamics of human nature when you

687
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 1: hear something negative spoken it, she felt like it empowered

688
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of people who maybe weren't even that

689
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 1: interested in it to to come in and and and

690
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 1: speak negatively about it, and she was the only person

691
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 1: I think there were thirteen comments, and she was the

692
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: only person that stood up and said she you know,

693
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: she said, hey, this is this is wildlife management. This

694
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 1: is the way we've always managed our bears. Our bears

695
00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: are thriving. If we take this away, we're losing a

696
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: management tool. We're using a UM, you know, a part

697
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 1: of our hunting and heritage, which is important to some people.

698
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: And so her whole thing was where were the hunters?

699
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 1: You know, where? Where? Where were the hunters inside this meeting?

700
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 1: And she brought up a great point that and we

701
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 1: know this, but it helped me to hear it from her,

702
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 1: is that we need to do a better job as

703
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,399
Speaker 1: hunters of telling our game commissions what what we feel

704
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 1: like they're doing right, you know, I mean the squeaky

705
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 1: Will's heard and her question, yeah, it was just that

706
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: where are the bear hunters? Um? The second thing that

707
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 1: she brought up was that COVID, because everything has become

708
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: virtual these days, COVID nineteen the pandemic has given access

709
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 1: to anybody basically to attend some of these high level meetings.

710
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure the protocol for who gets to

711
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 1: go to what meetings, But this meeting in Washington, all

712
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: you had to do was reserve a place at the

713
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 1: commission meeting and you were sent a zoom link and

714
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,800
Speaker 1: you could attend and you could speak in public comments stuff.

715
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: And so her question was, you know, her statement was

716
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 1: that these out of state special interest groups now have

717
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 1: an even easier reach into Game Commission meetings, and uh,

718
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 1: that was pretty telling. Um. She also brought up that

719
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 1: in the commission meeting, while they were talking about the

720
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: spring bear hunt, the commission was mandated is mandated to

721
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 1: report the comments that they received during certain periods of

722
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:42,399
Speaker 1: time about specific topics, and they reported that they had

723
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:46,320
Speaker 1: received five hundred and forty negative comments on the Washington

724
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 1: spring bear hunt, and ben those five they were mandated

725
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 1: to report that, and those five hundred and forty, those

726
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 1: five emails were or um, let's see form emails from

727
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: a couple of anti hunting groups out of California. And

728
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: it just kind of it was wild because you can

729
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: see how that would turn. I mean, some of these

730
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:18,280
Speaker 1: commissioners aren't hunters, she said, one of the commissioners specifically,

731
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 1: it's not a hunter at all. A commissioner on their

732
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:25,399
Speaker 1: Wildlife Council and uh, I mean you can see how

733
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: just like the overwhelming vibe of all this was negative.

734
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 1: And what I pulled from her talk of the form

735
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 1: emails was, you know that was powerful. I mean you know,

736
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 1: to see to the anti hunting groups that did that,

737
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 1: you know, and again you know where where are the hunters?

738
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 1: You know? And um, that's powerful stuff. Um yeah, yeah,

739
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: There's there's so much that goes into just I just

740
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, it's like, start trying to read a

741
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 1: little bit about the Washington bear hunting situation itself. It

742
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 1: just goes to show you each one of these situations

743
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 1: is so different and and there are, but you know

744
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:15,760
Speaker 1: they have commonalities, and one of them is there's there's

745
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 1: this the idea that people are wantonly murdering bears, and

746
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 1: you don't imagine that somebody that thinks that will do

747
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 1: anything to stop you from doing that. Like that's that's

748
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 1: what's on what you're talking about. It's on display. It's

749
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 1: almost at the idea of hunting and its traditions and

750
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: it's important to us and something that we value, and

751
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: it provides us food and all these other things could

752
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: never pale in comparison. As a driver of action to

753
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 1: people are murdering bears, we must stop it. And so

754
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 1: maybe this is what you're giving giving us as a

755
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: tangible example of of the motivating factors on either side.

756
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 1: And we we've seen this time and time again that

757
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,240
Speaker 1: that anti hunters are people that want to stop hunting.

758
00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 1: Seemed to be well read and well practice and and

759
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 1: coming in with a real mission here, and hunters seemed

760
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,879
Speaker 1: to kind of be defensive and sit back and um,

761
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,360
Speaker 1: only defended when there's a real, real stated threat in

762
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 1: the in the public forum, um, rather than you know,

763
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 1: going to the game Commission in a proactive way. Yeah.

764
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 1: You know. One of the things that Maurice mentioned that

765
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,919
Speaker 1: they said in this meeting was that I think four

766
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,839
Speaker 1: percent of the people in Washington or hunters, and an

767
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 1: even smaller percentage of those people are spring bear hunters.

768
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: And so their question was why are we even doing this?

769
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:41,720
Speaker 1: Which that's a tough one to take on the cheek. UM.

770
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: I mentioned that too to to Steve Ronella on on

771
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 1: the Medeor podcast, which you can hear some of our conversation.

772
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: It wasn't as in depth that's what we're doing right now,

773
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 1: And Steve made a great point, which I was glad

774
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 1: to hear. It added some It added some fodder to

775
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: my to my guard. The gate um is that he said,

776
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: he said, this is a democratic society, but not everything

777
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 1: is democratic. And his example was when we go to war,

778
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 1: does do we do we take a vote? You know?

779
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 1: I mean does does the does every person in the

780
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: whole country get to vote on? Do we you know,

781
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 1: shoot a missile over there? I mean, this point was

782
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: well taken to me, is that wildlife management is not

783
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 1: designed to be a democratic process. It's really not. I mean,

784
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 1: it kind of sounds crazy to say it, but it's not.

785
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 1: I mean, it's we we've in this country. Is the

786
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 1: reason we had such success and bring it back wildlife

787
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 1: is because we've left it to the professionals. We've left

788
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 1: it to scientific wildlife management. And I mean that's a

789
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 1: big platform we stand on and scream out all the time,

790
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 1: is that, hey, we're leaving this to the professionals. Um.

791
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 1: And I mean that's a strong case. That's a strong

792
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 1: case for us to say that is that this is

793
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 1: not a democratic process. If if if we said we're

794
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 1: gonna ban tennis, if fifty one per cent of people

795
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 1: in this country. Don't like tennis, you know, you know

796
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 1: I would ban tennis, um. And it hurts those those

797
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 1: poor little yellow balls and get beat up all the time,

798
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 1: right all right, So I mean the point is it's just,

799
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 1: you know, not everything is supposed to be just because

800
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 1: of us like it, you know. Yeah, I mean, if

801
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 1: you if you examine what Steve is saying, is born

802
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,240
Speaker 1: out in our model of wildlife conservation um and thought

803
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,320
Speaker 1: out by the folks who enacted it to turn of

804
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: the century and then the nineteen thirties, and then written

805
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 1: down and codified by Shane Mahoney and dr various geist

806
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: and folks in the eighties and nineties and up until

807
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: today where they just published last year a book on

808
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 1: the subject um. And And it starts off by saying

809
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 1: addressing ownership, right, like who owns wildlife? If I own it,

810
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 1: then I can tell you what we're gonna do with it. Um.

811
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 1: So it starts off by saying, man, it's a public trust.

812
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 1: And it means right, fish and wildlife are held by

813
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:21,840
Speaker 1: the by the public. We own them, state and federal

814
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 1: governments are going to manage them through the state and

815
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 1: federal government. We own them, right, and we we are

816
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 1: putting in charge state and federal government who have employed

817
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:38,759
Speaker 1: biologists and ecologists to help us figure out wildlife management, right,

818
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 1: And that's that's where the part of the allocation of

819
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 1: wildlife by law comes in. And then you get to

820
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 1: wild life should only be killed for a legitimate purpose,

821
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: and then you boom, boom, you come all the way

822
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 1: down to science is the proper tool for the discharge

823
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 1: of wildlife policy. And we are entrusting as the public

824
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:01,840
Speaker 1: the state and federal governments here and the agencies that

825
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 1: they've created to do this with the discharge of that

826
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 1: wildlife policy. And all of that is built out and

827
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 1: and kind of a cascading set of ideals in those

828
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 1: tenants of of our wildlife model. And I've read the

829
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: books and broken them down and try and go on

830
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 1: and go on after this as much as I can,

831
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 1: and again take taking a few swings at the dogma

832
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 1: in the hunting space, like only we can tell you,

833
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 1: only we can tell you how we should hunt. Taking

834
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 1: a few swings at that idea, you come back to,

835
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:37,240
Speaker 1: chaos would be ballot box biology throughout this country, because

836
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: then you would have, ultimately, and what you have here

837
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 1: is a bunch of people who don't hunt voting on

838
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 1: what we do with wildlife. A bunch of people that

839
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,320
Speaker 1: do that don't understand the population dynamics, don't understand anything

840
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 1: about it, cohabitation voting on how we managed wildlife with

841
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 1: little to no knowledge of of what they're voting on

842
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 1: other than easy, the easy emotional elements of killing or

843
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,839
Speaker 1: not kill. You know, Ben, you said something earlier that

844
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 1: when you said it, I thought about it because I

845
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: would have totally agreed with you, and you tell you,

846
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:14,319
Speaker 1: tell me what you think about this. You said that

847
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 1: a lot of these uh, most of these anti hunters

848
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 1: are well educated, well spoken, and really know their stuff. Um,

849
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:26,800
Speaker 1: I think most of them that are on the front

850
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:31,799
Speaker 1: end and on the top end of this argument do Yeah.

851
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:34,240
Speaker 1: Let me let me define that as like activists. People

852
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: that are activists in the sense that you're explaining in Washington.

853
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 1: Those folks are there because they know what's going on. Now,

854
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 1: we've had some antimbrights activists on this show that that

855
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: don't know a bear from an elk. So shades of

856
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 1: gray there for sure. Yeah, continue, No, no, And I'm

857
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 1: not disagreed with you. I just want to I mean,

858
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:58,320
Speaker 1: like encourage people. Like the reason that the anti hunting

859
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: community and their messages so well received is because it's

860
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 1: it's an extremely dumbed down, easy idea to get behind

861
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,719
Speaker 1: if you don't have a lot of knowledge, and so, like,

862
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 1: I think in general, like if if we if we

863
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 1: got the average listener of this podcast in a room

864
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 1: with an average anti person that said they were anti hunting,

865
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 1: I'm pretty confident that our guys would in the court

866
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:34,320
Speaker 1: of law, like have way more information, way more persuasive

867
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:40,359
Speaker 1: legitimate rational arguments. Um. So, anyway, I just say all

868
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:44,880
Speaker 1: that to say, I'm pretty unimpressed with the hunting anti

869
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:48,360
Speaker 1: hunting world, really am. And I know I'm I I

870
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:50,879
Speaker 1: laugh because I've been there, man, I agree with you.

871
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 1: You know where I've been. Um. I've attempted to find

872
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:58,799
Speaker 1: who people I thought were thought leaders, or at least

873
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: leaders of these organizations things that that have large followings,

874
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:05,839
Speaker 1: and Paulisher and Anonyms for the Voiceless is the most

875
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:09,280
Speaker 1: recent example of that. UM. And I find these people

876
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 1: to be militant in their activism, but well intended in

877
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 1: their thought processes, you know. And I find them just

878
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 1: to be people flawed as we might be. You and

879
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 1: I might be in our own thought processes about hunting.

880
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I guarantee there's some some chinks in our

881
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 1: armor and the way we think about it that hears

882
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:27,799
Speaker 1: from now we'll be like man, I'm glad that I

883
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:34,320
Speaker 1: evolved from where I was. Um, But at its core level,

884
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:37,359
Speaker 1: the knowledge of the natural world, the knowledge of how

885
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 1: we relate to manage live with wild creatures, it's just

886
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 1: I haven't found it. I found this cursory understanding of

887
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 1: the emotions, Um, this acknowledgement of the emotions, and this

888
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 1: kind of slavery to the emotions. That that is, it

889
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,479
Speaker 1: goes along the lines of that original dog that I

890
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:02,360
Speaker 1: heard when I first got in the honey industry that

891
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 1: anti hunters are all emotional with no facts. I said, well,

892
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 1: let me go explore that, kick the door down on that,

893
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:10,840
Speaker 1: and see if those guys are right or wrong. And

894
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: this is one of the ones where I'm like man,

895
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:16,320
Speaker 1: when I returned to the original statement, it really is,

896
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:18,799
Speaker 1: is is as true as it was when I when

897
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:21,319
Speaker 1: I first started. We got this short into the stick

898
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:25,360
Speaker 1: on this deal. I mean, like we have to really

899
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 1: know our stuff, we have to really have information knowledge

900
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 1: the the correct I mean I think our intent matters,

901
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 1: you know, have the correct heart motivation. Um like inside

902
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 1: this argument, like it's really easy to jump on the

903
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 1: other side. It's harder to get on our side. But

904
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:49,439
Speaker 1: we're you know, it takes more intentionality. And I think

905
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:53,879
Speaker 1: that's what we're trying to say these days, is man

906
00:52:54,200 --> 00:53:00,839
Speaker 1: the base level, the base level knowledge ability to articulate,

907
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 1: the ability to understand the macro system of North American

908
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 1: hunting of the average hunter needs to come way up,

909
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 1: you know. I mean in nineteen eighty nobody knew a

910
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 1: thing about white tailed deer hunting. I mean, guys were

911
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 1: just guessing on how to kill dear in My nine

912
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: year old son knows more knowledge and information. Let me

913
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:23,960
Speaker 1: say then, probably my dad did in nineteen eighty, Like

914
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 1: you know what dear do, where they go, why they

915
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 1: do it. That's what it has to happen with this,

916
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 1: Like we have to become we have to become really knowledgeable, confident,

917
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 1: uh merciful. And that's what I've seen inside of your

918
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 1: kind of your frequency BNS is Yeah, we're not These

919
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:49,879
Speaker 1: aren't bad people necessarily, They're really not there. It's and

920
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 1: I like that because you know, we're not this war

921
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 1: is not against flesh and blood, you know, it's it's

922
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:02,840
Speaker 1: it's an ideological battle. It is um, and it's a

923
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 1: functional legislative battle, yes it is. It's a political battle,

924
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:10,160
Speaker 1: yes it is um. But it also plays out really

925
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 1: functionally inside of our everyday lives, as we interact with

926
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:17,359
Speaker 1: our communities, as we interact on social media, as we

927
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:22,359
Speaker 1: portray and live out the lifestyle of a modern North

928
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:25,239
Speaker 1: American hunter. And uh, I think that's where we can

929
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 1: all we can all you know, improve ourselves and and

930
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 1: ou our knowledge. I love it, and it's extremely well said.

931
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 1: And the way that I've become will come to build

932
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:39,400
Speaker 1: upon this in my own life and try to display

933
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 1: that on this show, is that in the face of

934
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:45,960
Speaker 1: a person or a group of people who is built

935
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 1: a narrative, right, they built a narrative in their head.

936
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 1: And this happens, as you said, on the political spectrums,

937
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:55,399
Speaker 1: that happens in our own world. Most people, they're their

938
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 1: logic is narrative based. This is how the world is.

939
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:01,239
Speaker 1: This is the story I believe to be true, and

940
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to fit the truth into this apparatus I've

941
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 1: built to kind of insulate myself from maybe objective truth,

942
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:12,800
Speaker 1: and so I'm building everything into a narrative. This happens

943
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:15,320
Speaker 1: with right wing and left wing anti hunting and hunting

944
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:19,279
Speaker 1: and the thing that in the philosophy that I've come

945
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:21,920
Speaker 1: to really appreciate, and I didn't always have this, you know,

946
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 1: when I first came into this show and to speaking

947
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 1: publicly about this, I was like, get rid of gripping grins,

948
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 1: you know, that was my first I was mad. I

949
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 1: was mad at the hunting industry. I wanted it to change.

950
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:34,799
Speaker 1: But I don't understand what I was talking about. I

951
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 1: didn't know what I was saying. I was presenting loss

952
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 1: instead of change. Um and and an example of going

953
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 1: and exploring these ideas. Why would I do the thing

954
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: to the to an anti hunter that they are doing

955
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 1: to me if they're if they're playing an emotional narrative

956
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 1: based logic and there and that's how they moved through

957
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:57,799
Speaker 1: the world. And I feel that to be cheap, I

958
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 1: feel that to be um have almost no value in

959
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:03,880
Speaker 1: terms of critical thinking. Why would I then develop my

960
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:06,839
Speaker 1: own narrative against the one that they've developed. Why would

961
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 1: I not first look at how I think about hunting,

962
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 1: the values that I believe that inserts into our lives

963
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:15,440
Speaker 1: and try to beat the crap out of that first,

964
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 1: and try to take the narrative I've built in my

965
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:21,479
Speaker 1: head and kick the door in on that in order

966
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:24,880
Speaker 1: to then face them by saying, I've done the work here,

967
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 1: internal work. I've done the internal work to say what

968
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 1: is and what isn't true about hunting itself. Um, then

969
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 1: you're you feel like you're empowered then to call them

970
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,560
Speaker 1: out on the stuff, the work they haven't done with

971
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:43,280
Speaker 1: the fallacies that are built into the animal rights ideology,

972
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 1: and so hopefully there's some real strength in that. Man,

973
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:49,120
Speaker 1: it's hard to do. But man, once you just described

974
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 1: the internal process that you just described of basically deconstructing

975
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:57,360
Speaker 1: our hedgemon, you know, the hedgemon being like the way

976
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 1: the filter through which we view life that it's default ingrained, unrecognizable,

977
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 1: often invisible, like being able to deconstruct that and go

978
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:14,879
Speaker 1: into something objectively without bias. And that's really hard, I mean,

979
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 1: like massively hard for a human to do that, because

980
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 1: we were successful, because we I mean, like when I

981
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 1: say successful, I mean like even like biologically successful and

982
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:29,840
Speaker 1: relationally successful, and so much of our world is built

983
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:34,600
Speaker 1: upon these narratives, that we create about ourselves, about our family,

984
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:37,960
Speaker 1: about our where we live. So to do what you're

985
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 1: describing being it's really a it's really difficult, and I

986
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 1: I can't say that I've like, I attempt to do that,

987
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 1: and and I attempt to do it. I don't know,

988
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:57,640
Speaker 1: I don't know how successful I've been. Um, But I

989
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:00,080
Speaker 1: like the idea. I mean, I love it's it's not

990
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:03,360
Speaker 1: an idea, I mean it's it can be a reality

991
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:07,240
Speaker 1: but interesting. Yeah, yeah, I mean how yeah, how can

992
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 1: you truly defend something if unless you've explored its weaknesses?

993
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:12,720
Speaker 1: You know, if we were building, if we really were

994
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 1: building a fortress around hunting at some pearl that we

995
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 1: needed to protect within our lives and the lives of

996
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 1: people around us, we would have to check the fortress

997
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 1: for some crumbling infrastructure. We would have to check the

998
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 1: walls and be like, is this going to hold up

999
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:30,160
Speaker 1: when somebody attacks it? Is this gonna hold up when

1000
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 1: somebody attacks it? What about this part of it? What

1001
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 1: about this? What about this? What about that? And so

1002
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:37,520
Speaker 1: in building the gate, you know, to guard I think

1003
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 1: we also have to try to kick our own gates in,

1004
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:43,000
Speaker 1: you know, um and try to try to move moving

1005
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 1: away that we've already tested. We've already proof tested this

1006
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 1: in our own minds and with people that believe what

1007
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 1: we believe, um, and challenge ourselves and and man, you're

1008
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:55,640
Speaker 1: stronger in the defense of it when you get there. UM.

1009
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:57,560
Speaker 1: I think. I I know that to be true because

1010
00:58:57,640 --> 00:58:59,479
Speaker 1: when I go into a conversation with an anti hunter

1011
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 1: who thinks or murderer, I have nothing but confidence in

1012
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 1: the ideas I'm about to articulate, because I've been looking

1013
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:07,720
Speaker 1: into them a good bit and then I've been trying

1014
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:12,080
Speaker 1: to realize where I'm where I could be wrong. And

1015
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 1: then when I find when I find those weaknesses, m

1016
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 1: then I allow myself to, you know, get rid of

1017
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 1: them on my own. Here's a quick thought. What what

1018
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 1: if you What if you didn't buy into kind of

1019
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 1: this intellectual position like we're talking about, and you were

1020
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 1: just like, man, we've got a right to do what

1021
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:46,520
Speaker 1: we do because of all the positive things, the things

1022
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 1: in the plus column I come from hunting like, regardless

1023
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:57,520
Speaker 1: of anything else, us just simply saying they're more there's

1024
00:59:57,560 --> 01:00:02,360
Speaker 1: more wildlife in North America than anywhere in the world.

1025
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 1: You know, are big game species. You know, we have

1026
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 1: the strongest big game in the world in many in

1027
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 1: many categories. And it's come because of the funding of hunting,

1028
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:16,880
Speaker 1: it's come because of scientific wildlife management. So we're just

1029
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:19,919
Speaker 1: gonna do it because it works, not not because it's

1030
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 1: not because of any deep thought. It just works if

1031
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 1: your desire is to have sustainable populations of game, you know.

1032
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's easy for me to dive deep

1033
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 1: into like all this stuff that I love to talk about,

1034
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:39,080
Speaker 1: like you're talking about we're talking about, but also there's

1035
01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:41,560
Speaker 1: this other thing that's just real simple. It's like, why

1036
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:44,920
Speaker 1: are like the anti Huney community they want animals on

1037
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 1: the landscape, Well so do we, And it's been working

1038
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 1: with us being at the driver's seat. Yeah yeah, I mean,

1039
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 1: I'll play Devil's advocate because I like this. I like

1040
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:56,840
Speaker 1: what you're saying. Hum and that's all. And I think

1041
01:00:56,880 --> 01:01:00,480
Speaker 1: what you're saying is the surface level. Let's go and

1042
01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:02,160
Speaker 1: test what you just said, right, Let's go and then

1043
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:07,040
Speaker 1: then examine if there's something that's analogous to that. And

1044
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 1: I think maybe the war analogy makes sense. If you

1045
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:12,200
Speaker 1: went to somebody and said we are the safest country

1046
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 1: in terms of external threats that there is. What we've

1047
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:20,280
Speaker 1: been doing from a wartime strategy is kept we're safer

1048
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 1: than everyone else in terms of somebody coming into our

1049
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 1: country and harming us. And he said, yep, cool, you

1050
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:29,240
Speaker 1: want to stay safe? Yes, I do. Well, then then

1051
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:30,840
Speaker 1: I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing. We're like,

1052
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 1: what about what about looking at how we conduct war,

1053
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:38,360
Speaker 1: making it, you know, making it more um palatable from

1054
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 1: a morality standpoint. Let's let's look at who we bomb

1055
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:43,560
Speaker 1: and how we bomb them, or who we sanction and

1056
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 1: how we sanction them, and let's get better at at

1057
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:49,320
Speaker 1: this act even though it's working right now. I think

1058
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 1: there is some analogy in that too side, you know,

1059
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:55,080
Speaker 1: like what society is asking us to do with hunting.

1060
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:58,720
Speaker 1: I think I think they're saying, is it good? Is

1061
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:00,680
Speaker 1: it good for everybody? Is a good of the animals?

1062
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:04,680
Speaker 1: And I and we're saying, hound hunting, bait hunting, all

1063
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:07,160
Speaker 1: the stuff. Yes, we're saying, yes it is, Yes it is.

1064
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:10,120
Speaker 1: Look over here, it is um And then they're saying,

1065
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 1: but what about the guy that's speared the bear on YouTube?

1066
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 1: And we're saying, but that's an isolated incident. You know,

1067
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 1: if really if you want to see the propagation these

1068
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 1: wildless pieces, you have to allow us to conduct this

1069
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:24,960
Speaker 1: and you have to understand that it's imperfect in lots

1070
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:30,520
Speaker 1: of ways. And I think that's what's happening here. I

1071
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:32,080
Speaker 1: feel like we're on the right side of history, and

1072
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 1: I feel like history has proved that out. But that

1073
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:37,920
Speaker 1: I don't think that smooths out the complicated societal and

1074
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:42,400
Speaker 1: cultural factors that we're talking about. It done and so

1075
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:46,400
Speaker 1: here we are. You know, that's a more philosophical debate.

1076
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:48,840
Speaker 1: But then you have this the real idea that that

1077
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:53,520
Speaker 1: things are being attacked that we love, right, um, brilliant idea.

1078
01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 1: Ben Um, We're gonna, I think we're gonna we're gonna

1079
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 1: all line from like central Texas up to like you know, Manitoba, Saskatchewan,

1080
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:09,680
Speaker 1: and we're gonna give the anti hunters the West. We're

1081
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:12,560
Speaker 1: gonna give him the whole western u s Okay, and

1082
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:15,600
Speaker 1: we're gonna say, you guys are the king of wildlife

1083
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:21,280
Speaker 1: management over there, and then everywhere from Arkansas to the Atlantic.

1084
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:27,000
Speaker 1: We're gonna let me And uh, I'm trying to think

1085
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:31,760
Speaker 1: of a good comrade. Um. I need I need a person.

1086
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 1: I need a person somebody that would help you in

1087
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:37,400
Speaker 1: Shane Mahoney, Me and Shane Mahoney. I was thinking somebody

1088
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:46,440
Speaker 1: a little more you know, less magnanimous. Yeah. Maybe, Well,

1089
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:50,640
Speaker 1: how about three Me, Kolbe and and Shane Mahoney get

1090
01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:53,640
Speaker 1: to manage the eastern US and we'll touch base in

1091
01:03:53,760 --> 01:03:57,520
Speaker 1: fifty years. We'll see how things are going. Yeah, well,

1092
01:03:57,560 --> 01:03:59,680
Speaker 1: I think you would. You would. Look, you'll be looking

1093
01:03:59,720 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 1: at a very emotionally distraught western half of the United

1094
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:07,520
Speaker 1: States who has has um taken away a lot of

1095
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:10,800
Speaker 1: the protections and a lot of the value systems that

1096
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:13,120
Speaker 1: we have for wildlife in terms of how we relate

1097
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:16,320
Speaker 1: to them. They overpopulated and then they had to start

1098
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:20,360
Speaker 1: killing them. Um like we do oftentimes. Take a look

1099
01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:23,040
Speaker 1: at aphis the government the U. S D a aphist

1100
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:26,360
Speaker 1: team and what what they kill each year. Um, they

1101
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:30,120
Speaker 1: would have the biggest aphist team ever And they would

1102
01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:33,160
Speaker 1: have to because they wouldn't want to confront the emotionality

1103
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:35,240
Speaker 1: of having to kill stuff because they are humans and

1104
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:37,560
Speaker 1: they take up habitat and they take up resources, and

1105
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:40,920
Speaker 1: there's a competition for resources going on. They would have

1106
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:43,160
Speaker 1: to be lying to themselves going, you know, we we

1107
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:48,000
Speaker 1: at least we're not killing them for ego, like, oh yeah,

1108
01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:52,120
Speaker 1: well okay, holier than thou. Um, how's it working over there?

1109
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 1: You know? You know the other thing that they would

1110
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:58,400
Speaker 1: have a lot of over there? Wolves, Yeah, there would

1111
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:01,240
Speaker 1: be a lot of Yeah I do. I mean if

1112
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:03,920
Speaker 1: we could make you know, if we could make the

1113
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:08,840
Speaker 1: case to have some like two islands, right, I would like,

1114
01:05:08,840 --> 01:05:10,600
Speaker 1: if I had enough money, I would buy two islands,

1115
01:05:10,600 --> 01:05:12,960
Speaker 1: and I would I would allow Paul the Sheer and

1116
01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:15,040
Speaker 1: some folks to run one and I'd run another one.

1117
01:05:15,520 --> 01:05:19,040
Speaker 1: And I like, I just guarantee that I guarantee, I

1118
01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:21,760
Speaker 1: know this to be true, that our island would be

1119
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:25,080
Speaker 1: more well balanced there. The people would be happier. Um,

1120
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:27,560
Speaker 1: there would be more freedoms, there would there would be

1121
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:32,080
Speaker 1: a better value system for wildlife. Man. And you know,

1122
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:35,640
Speaker 1: I wish that was enough, you know, I wish my

1123
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:38,320
Speaker 1: knowledge of it was enough. In your knowledge shous enough.

1124
01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:40,200
Speaker 1: But it's not enough to stop a bunch of people

1125
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:43,600
Speaker 1: in California from jumping on a fucking zoom call. You know,

1126
01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:47,640
Speaker 1: And because imagine that, dude, you're a busy guy, your

1127
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:50,320
Speaker 1: family man, you're religious, you go to church, you go

1128
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:52,680
Speaker 1: to sports, with your kids, you do podcasts, you work

1129
01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:55,160
Speaker 1: for media, do you do other stuff? Do you have

1130
01:05:55,280 --> 01:06:00,640
Speaker 1: time to to firebomb game commission form emails? Like? Do

1131
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:04,080
Speaker 1: you ever think about that? You know, have you ever thought? Well,

1132
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:07,200
Speaker 1: I know that and that your point is well taken,

1133
01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:10,320
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna throw in a I'll tell you what.

1134
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:13,320
Speaker 1: These back country hunters and anglers for emails are pretty good.

1135
01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:16,280
Speaker 1: They've been sending out They sent out one to Florida

1136
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:20,720
Speaker 1: when Florida was the Florida Game Commission was trying to

1137
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:24,400
Speaker 1: decide their beare management strategy, and it was reported to

1138
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:28,080
Speaker 1: me that there were It was the good side of

1139
01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:30,520
Speaker 1: the story. I just told you about Washington where the

1140
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:33,240
Speaker 1: Game Commission said, hey, we had I think it was

1141
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:37,040
Speaker 1: over a thousand emails that came in. That were four

1142
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 1: emails that were pro bear hunting that came into Florida. Um. Additionally,

1143
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:46,560
Speaker 1: the b h A did one for the recent New

1144
01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:49,720
Speaker 1: Jersey thing, which we didn't win on, but at least

1145
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:52,960
Speaker 1: the voice was there, so that you know, and and

1146
01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:54,800
Speaker 1: and b H is certainly not the only people that

1147
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:57,080
Speaker 1: are doing that at all, like, but but they do

1148
01:06:57,120 --> 01:06:59,720
Speaker 1: a good job of it. They do. Yeah, And I

1149
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:02,720
Speaker 1: think to it's that man o ban That's what I'm

1150
01:07:02,720 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 1: trying to your face. So yeah, I mean you're not wrong.

1151
01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:09,600
Speaker 1: But that's a new thing, isn't it. I mean, that's new.

1152
01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:12,480
Speaker 1: I'm not Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe something can write in

1153
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:15,120
Speaker 1: and tell me in years past and eighties, nineties and

1154
01:07:15,160 --> 01:07:17,720
Speaker 1: decades that I really wasn't active in this in this

1155
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 1: community the way I am now. You didn't have email

1156
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:24,400
Speaker 1: in nine four when you were not born negative one?

1157
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 1: Uh No, I didn't. But I mean, was there uh

1158
01:07:29,960 --> 01:07:32,320
Speaker 1: an active a group as as b h A has

1159
01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:35,440
Speaker 1: become over time? You know when I was coming up,

1160
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:38,480
Speaker 1: I never thought there was. I certainly wasn't involved in one.

1161
01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:41,880
Speaker 1: You know, the single species organizations. There isn't a bear

1162
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:44,439
Speaker 1: hunting association that has the power of the Rocky Mount

1163
01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:48,480
Speaker 1: Nail Association. Um, there isn't. You know. These single species

1164
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:51,400
Speaker 1: organizations kind of get in a box and and sometimes

1165
01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:54,600
Speaker 1: a're stuck in that box, right, Um? And the Sportsman

1166
01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:57,600
Speaker 1: Alliance we've had those guys on a couple of times.

1167
01:07:57,640 --> 01:08:00,800
Speaker 1: Such a good organization, man, I mean, and they they

1168
01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:03,080
Speaker 1: can't seem to get traction. They don't have a hundred

1169
01:08:03,080 --> 01:08:05,840
Speaker 1: thousand members like Anonymous for the voiceless. You know, they

1170
01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:09,000
Speaker 1: don't have Instagram that has three hundred thousand people and

1171
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:12,320
Speaker 1: they're screaming about eating vegetables and and but that's what

1172
01:08:12,360 --> 01:08:15,480
Speaker 1: the other side has. And Sportsman's Alliance was is dedicated

1173
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:18,960
Speaker 1: to fighting these smaller battles, but they don't have any

1174
01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:21,519
Speaker 1: steam within the hunting world. They're not like the thing

1175
01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:25,200
Speaker 1: on the tip of everybody's tongue. I think the hell

1176
01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:28,599
Speaker 1: is going on. I think with every hunting license sold

1177
01:08:28,640 --> 01:08:31,599
Speaker 1: in North America, you ought to have to buy buy

1178
01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:36,880
Speaker 1: membership to the Sportsman's Alliance. I mean there's and it's not.

1179
01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:40,720
Speaker 1: Every time you highlight somebody, others might feel like they're

1180
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:42,960
Speaker 1: being left out on purpose. They're not, I mean just

1181
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:47,360
Speaker 1: Sportsman's Alliance. I'm familiar with them. Uh they have a

1182
01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:50,479
Speaker 1: column in our our magazine or any magazine, and they

1183
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:54,800
Speaker 1: they're just so I love those guys, man, I really

1184
01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:58,080
Speaker 1: did too. I've known Brian Lynn for a decade and

1185
01:08:58,120 --> 01:09:00,639
Speaker 1: he's been on the shows on Show earlier this year,

1186
01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:04,280
Speaker 1: and he and their CEO, Evan Hutchfeld, has been on

1187
01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:06,160
Speaker 1: I never know how to say his last name, Sorry, Evan,

1188
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:09,800
Speaker 1: It's it's complicated. Hudson Feld something like that. Um, But

1189
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:12,600
Speaker 1: Evan's a great dude. I've hunted bears with him and

1190
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:18,280
Speaker 1: and with um, with Brian Lynn over in fact Uh

1191
01:09:18,360 --> 01:09:23,360
Speaker 1: in Idaho and saltees and and over bait, and just

1192
01:09:23,400 --> 01:09:26,439
Speaker 1: as you're such a barbarian man, Yes, I am a

1193
01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:28,559
Speaker 1: very Yeah, I might look like a hipster. I might

1194
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:31,599
Speaker 1: talk about logical fallacy is a political rhetoric, but I'm

1195
01:09:31,640 --> 01:09:36,479
Speaker 1: a chest beaten barbarian myself. And I dude, I I mean,

1196
01:09:36,479 --> 01:09:40,439
Speaker 1: I hunted over bait for years and in Quebec and

1197
01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:43,240
Speaker 1: and enjoyed myself and never thought of anything other than

1198
01:09:43,280 --> 01:09:45,479
Speaker 1: this being the proper way to hunt for the place

1199
01:09:45,479 --> 01:09:47,439
Speaker 1: that I was in. I'm not gonna throw a bag

1200
01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:50,040
Speaker 1: of corner down on the in Montana and the Gus

1201
01:09:50,080 --> 01:09:54,160
Speaker 1: and National Forest. I'd be in trouble if I did.

1202
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:55,960
Speaker 1: But I wouldn't anyway, even if I could do it,

1203
01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:58,120
Speaker 1: because it's just not the way to hunt him. And

1204
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:00,479
Speaker 1: so anyway, I say all that to say, I do

1205
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:04,880
Speaker 1: think they are the sportsmen Alliance is the group. And again,

1206
01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:06,920
Speaker 1: when I first came in the industry, I decided I'm

1207
01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:09,559
Speaker 1: going to question what they say. And I don't want

1208
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:12,000
Speaker 1: to be a part of some sort of you know,

1209
01:10:12,160 --> 01:10:17,400
Speaker 1: movement that has only insular credibility. And as the more

1210
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:20,439
Speaker 1: that I've learned about the opposition to what we do,

1211
01:10:20,479 --> 01:10:23,479
Speaker 1: the more that I know that that those folks are important.

1212
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:26,960
Speaker 1: You know. Um, those folks are Brian and Evan and

1213
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:31,080
Speaker 1: all the folks that do what they do. They're underfunded,

1214
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:35,120
Speaker 1: they're understaffed. You know, they can't they can't. They're punching

1215
01:10:35,160 --> 01:10:38,160
Speaker 1: above their weight. Sad this thought the other day when

1216
01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:45,439
Speaker 1: I um plugged in Brian's article. Those guys, those guys

1217
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:50,479
Speaker 1: are every day confronted with very very negative things about hunting,

1218
01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:53,280
Speaker 1: like their job is to deal with the dirty stuff,

1219
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:56,639
Speaker 1: the bad stuff. And uh, you know, I actually had

1220
01:10:56,680 --> 01:11:00,000
Speaker 1: the thought of like them. You know how we're we're

1221
01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:04,479
Speaker 1: aptly so, you know, the culture and of in the

1222
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:07,360
Speaker 1: US is to you know, support our first responders and

1223
01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:11,920
Speaker 1: our our our military, which we should do. Um. I

1224
01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:14,880
Speaker 1: think in the hunting community we need to like throw

1225
01:11:14,960 --> 01:11:18,320
Speaker 1: some shout outs and encouragement to these guys that are

1226
01:11:18,400 --> 01:11:21,720
Speaker 1: fighting for a living, like a Sportsman's Alliance. I mean,

1227
01:11:21,720 --> 01:11:24,880
Speaker 1: these are just people. They get they can get. I mean,

1228
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:28,479
Speaker 1: I know I get down sometimes when I see some

1229
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:31,200
Speaker 1: of the things that we're up against, and these guys

1230
01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:32,680
Speaker 1: have to do it every day, and I know a

1231
01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:34,559
Speaker 1: lot of those groups have a lot of turnover, and

1232
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:37,360
Speaker 1: I think it's because of the heaviness of the job.

1233
01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:39,280
Speaker 1: And we also know that those guys aren't in it

1234
01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:42,320
Speaker 1: for the money. They're not becoming millionaires at all. They're

1235
01:11:42,320 --> 01:11:47,720
Speaker 1: doing trust NGOs and our space conservation regislations. I know

1236
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:51,360
Speaker 1: for a fact, aren't aren't shelling out the big bucks

1237
01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:54,040
Speaker 1: for for people to come and work there. I know,

1238
01:11:54,120 --> 01:11:56,160
Speaker 1: I know Sportsman's Alliance, I know where it is. I've

1239
01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:58,519
Speaker 1: known it since it was you know, a couple of

1240
01:11:58,560 --> 01:12:03,200
Speaker 1: people in in Columbus, Ohio. UM and and again, Yeah,

1241
01:12:03,320 --> 01:12:06,320
Speaker 1: as as I look at the validity of all our

1242
01:12:06,360 --> 01:12:10,400
Speaker 1: conservation organizations and moved through that world, I've I've increasingly

1243
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:12,840
Speaker 1: agreed with you that that these are the guys that

1244
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:17,240
Speaker 1: are that are doing it. And it is you know,

1245
01:12:17,640 --> 01:12:20,240
Speaker 1: as people try to divide us as hunters right between

1246
01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:23,479
Speaker 1: left lefty hunters and you know, the new version of

1247
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:26,759
Speaker 1: kind of the green decoy b H A member hunter

1248
01:12:27,040 --> 01:12:31,000
Speaker 1: and the old version of the right wing banquet you know,

1249
01:12:31,240 --> 01:12:37,240
Speaker 1: going R M E F guy and possible Sports's Alliance guy. UM,

1250
01:12:37,280 --> 01:12:39,320
Speaker 1: I think you're a good example and maybe I am too,

1251
01:12:39,479 --> 01:12:42,000
Speaker 1: of of all those ideas being important to me, I

1252
01:12:42,040 --> 01:12:44,880
Speaker 1: don't see. I don't think of this along party lines.

1253
01:12:45,439 --> 01:12:47,880
Speaker 1: You know, as I think about defending bear hunting, I

1254
01:12:47,880 --> 01:12:50,040
Speaker 1: want to support the Sources Alliance, And as I think

1255
01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:53,080
Speaker 1: about defending our national forests and our public lands and

1256
01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:57,560
Speaker 1: the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and the Boundary Waters, um,

1257
01:12:57,640 --> 01:13:00,599
Speaker 1: and I want to fight for sensible minings, sensible oil

1258
01:13:00,640 --> 01:13:05,760
Speaker 1: and gas development, better forest management throughout our country. UM.

1259
01:13:05,800 --> 01:13:08,240
Speaker 1: I don't divide that up, you know. I feel as

1260
01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:10,360
Speaker 1: passionate about that as I do about defending bear hunting

1261
01:13:10,360 --> 01:13:14,360
Speaker 1: in Florida, New Jersey. UM. And all I'm looking for

1262
01:13:14,439 --> 01:13:18,960
Speaker 1: is really objective thought, UM, and constructive thought within our

1263
01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:21,800
Speaker 1: wildlife management process and the systems that we have that work.

1264
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:25,240
Speaker 1: That's all I'm looking for. Just do that, and don't

1265
01:13:25,240 --> 01:13:29,720
Speaker 1: come crash our party with all these bears because you

1266
01:13:29,880 --> 01:13:32,080
Speaker 1: feel real because you have You know, there's a couple

1267
01:13:32,080 --> 01:13:33,640
Speaker 1: of bears in the corner of your kid's room that

1268
01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:37,800
Speaker 1: are wearing suspenders. It's like, stop doing that. That's all

1269
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:41,040
Speaker 1: I'm asking. Bears don't even have shoulders when they stand upright,

1270
01:13:41,120 --> 01:13:44,320
Speaker 1: How spenders even stay on them? I mean, that's that's

1271
01:13:44,360 --> 01:13:47,880
Speaker 1: the sense of rational argument there, man, and bears. Bears

1272
01:13:47,920 --> 01:13:50,439
Speaker 1: stand outside in the rain all the time. Why would

1273
01:13:50,439 --> 01:13:54,280
Speaker 1: they need a raincoat and a little yellow hat? Like,

1274
01:13:54,280 --> 01:13:56,679
Speaker 1: why would they even need that? It doesn't make any sense.

1275
01:13:57,320 --> 01:13:59,360
Speaker 1: They should be given those raincoats to people in need

1276
01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:02,559
Speaker 1: and not wearing around the damn woods. I've had enough

1277
01:14:02,600 --> 01:14:07,120
Speaker 1: of the ship. Um. But yeah, man, it's all it's funny. Yeah,

1278
01:14:07,160 --> 01:14:10,000
Speaker 1: it's funny. I don't know if you it's funny how

1279
01:14:10,040 --> 01:14:12,759
Speaker 1: all this stuff is intertwined, Like you could start down

1280
01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:16,960
Speaker 1: if you're willing to go into the rhetorical world of

1281
01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:19,920
Speaker 1: what we're talking about, if you're willing to kind of

1282
01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:23,479
Speaker 1: go in there. It's all intertwined. All of the things

1283
01:14:23,479 --> 01:14:26,360
Speaker 1: that we do are intertwined. I mean, all the ideas

1284
01:14:26,360 --> 01:14:30,200
Speaker 1: we present can all lead back to bear hunting somehow, right,

1285
01:14:30,240 --> 01:14:33,479
Speaker 1: they can all lead back to Um, the restrictions are

1286
01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:36,439
Speaker 1: what we do. And I think that's that's a really

1287
01:14:36,520 --> 01:14:38,200
Speaker 1: fun part of it, man, where we can always find

1288
01:14:38,200 --> 01:14:40,560
Speaker 1: our way back to the core principles of hunting and

1289
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:44,960
Speaker 1: then why we why we love it. Yeah, it's not

1290
01:14:45,080 --> 01:14:47,960
Speaker 1: hard it's not hard and there's always something out there

1291
01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:51,040
Speaker 1: that for us to talk about. So hopefully we'll be

1292
01:14:51,080 --> 01:14:53,360
Speaker 1: able to have you back here, you know, at least

1293
01:14:53,400 --> 01:14:55,839
Speaker 1: every month. My plan is every month to talk about

1294
01:14:56,320 --> 01:14:58,280
Speaker 1: to look at and talk about some things that are

1295
01:14:58,320 --> 01:15:01,160
Speaker 1: happening in our world. You know what what might be smart.

1296
01:15:01,200 --> 01:15:03,040
Speaker 1: I have thought about this till now, but we'll we'll

1297
01:15:03,080 --> 01:15:06,639
Speaker 1: call Brian Lynn up that sports his alliance and will

1298
01:15:06,680 --> 01:15:11,200
Speaker 1: partner with him on this. Yeah, We'll have have him

1299
01:15:11,240 --> 01:15:14,080
Speaker 1: help us highlights some of the things that are important

1300
01:15:14,080 --> 01:15:15,559
Speaker 1: to them and some of the things that we think

1301
01:15:16,640 --> 01:15:20,479
Speaker 1: warrants more discussion and keep this going because and again

1302
01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:23,880
Speaker 1: push back on stuff where we can to make sure

1303
01:15:23,880 --> 01:15:28,400
Speaker 1: we're not just falling into that trap. Been several years ago,

1304
01:15:28,439 --> 01:15:31,200
Speaker 1: I was up in Michigan and I've been several times

1305
01:15:31,240 --> 01:15:38,000
Speaker 1: to the Michigan Bear Hunters Association banquet, and those I

1306
01:15:38,120 --> 01:15:42,400
Speaker 1: hunted with those guys hound hunted with them for seven

1307
01:15:42,479 --> 01:15:44,560
Speaker 1: days one time, about six days I hunted and I

1308
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:47,519
Speaker 1: hunted with a different family every day, So I ended

1309
01:15:47,600 --> 01:15:52,160
Speaker 1: up hunting with well five different families in in six days.

1310
01:15:52,880 --> 01:15:56,800
Speaker 1: And what I noted and those guys, it would have

1311
01:15:56,840 --> 01:16:00,360
Speaker 1: been like it wouldn't have been that big a deal

1312
01:16:00,400 --> 01:16:02,400
Speaker 1: to them because it was just their life. But what

1313
01:16:02,520 --> 01:16:06,439
Speaker 1: I noted even in their kids and their wives, in

1314
01:16:06,520 --> 01:16:10,679
Speaker 1: their in the in every part of their their world

1315
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:13,720
Speaker 1: when it revolved around bear hunting with hounds, because they

1316
01:16:13,720 --> 01:16:16,920
Speaker 1: had built into their culture the idea that to be

1317
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:22,200
Speaker 1: a bear hunter in Michigan is to be proactive and

1318
01:16:22,280 --> 01:16:26,120
Speaker 1: to be a fighter to preserve what we love to do.

1319
01:16:26,960 --> 01:16:29,519
Speaker 1: And I mean even the kids. I mean it's just

1320
01:16:29,560 --> 01:16:31,599
Speaker 1: like it's just normal, yeah, to be a bear hunter

1321
01:16:32,240 --> 01:16:36,240
Speaker 1: every single year we have to. I mean they this

1322
01:16:37,360 --> 01:16:41,040
Speaker 1: Michigan Michigan Bear Hunters and in Wisconsin bear Hunters as well.

1323
01:16:41,160 --> 01:16:47,280
Speaker 1: Both of those groups incredible, incredibly well organized, well funded,

1324
01:16:47,960 --> 01:16:54,040
Speaker 1: well put together groups that are basically very active in

1325
01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:58,040
Speaker 1: state government, extremely active in state government. Extreme the people

1326
01:16:58,080 --> 01:17:00,000
Speaker 1: are active. I mean you have you go to West

1327
01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:06,600
Speaker 1: Wisconsin Bear Hunter Association banquet in the spring and uh,

1328
01:17:06,720 --> 01:17:09,720
Speaker 1: there will be I don't want to say the number

1329
01:17:09,720 --> 01:17:12,519
Speaker 1: because I'll get it wrong a lot of people there.

1330
01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:15,160
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of people. I know the Michigan

1331
01:17:15,320 --> 01:17:18,120
Speaker 1: Michigan Bear Hunter bankquets. I went to add five people there.

1332
01:17:18,680 --> 01:17:21,280
Speaker 1: That's a big deal to gather five people from a

1333
01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:26,920
Speaker 1: statewide organization. The point. The point is is that they

1334
01:17:27,000 --> 01:17:31,400
Speaker 1: built into their culture this idea that it's our job too,

1335
01:17:32,320 --> 01:17:37,640
Speaker 1: it's our job too to be proactive in maintaining this

1336
01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:39,840
Speaker 1: thing that we do. We've got to be fighters, and

1337
01:17:39,880 --> 01:17:41,720
Speaker 1: I think that's what's got to be built into the

1338
01:17:41,760 --> 01:17:44,840
Speaker 1: North American hunter's mind and not and and fighting. We

1339
01:17:44,880 --> 01:17:48,000
Speaker 1: probably need to use a different word than fighters, because

1340
01:17:48,000 --> 01:17:51,519
Speaker 1: we're not. Again, we're with this. It's not against flesh

1341
01:17:51,520 --> 01:17:54,479
Speaker 1: and blood. We're fighting. But it's our job to be aware.

1342
01:17:54,640 --> 01:17:57,560
Speaker 1: It's our job to be proactive. It's our job to

1343
01:17:57,600 --> 01:18:01,040
Speaker 1: be knowledge able, knowledgeable, it's our job to be able

1344
01:18:01,080 --> 01:18:05,760
Speaker 1: to say it. And you know, maybe it's maybe it's educators.

1345
01:18:06,280 --> 01:18:09,679
Speaker 1: Let's all be freaking educators. Man, Let's let's educate anybody

1346
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:12,240
Speaker 1: wants to listen and and have a lifestyle that's kind

1347
01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:14,439
Speaker 1: of built around that with your kids, your family, you know.

1348
01:18:14,840 --> 01:18:17,439
Speaker 1: And I just saw that so strongly with those guys.

1349
01:18:17,800 --> 01:18:22,360
Speaker 1: That was I think that's what we're missing. Sometimes we're

1350
01:18:22,439 --> 01:18:27,680
Speaker 1: so comfortable with just everything being as it is and

1351
01:18:27,720 --> 01:18:29,960
Speaker 1: it's always gonna be this way, and that's just not

1352
01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:32,680
Speaker 1: the truth. Ben. Let me close with one thought, um

1353
01:18:33,040 --> 01:18:38,439
Speaker 1: or well, if we close just one final thought, years ago,

1354
01:18:38,800 --> 01:18:42,840
Speaker 1: it might have taken twenty five to thirty years to

1355
01:18:43,120 --> 01:18:47,879
Speaker 1: turn the narrative in this country into something else. Now,

1356
01:18:48,479 --> 01:18:51,840
Speaker 1: because of technology, because of communication, because of social media,

1357
01:18:51,920 --> 01:18:56,240
Speaker 1: what used to take thirty years is now taken five years.

1358
01:18:56,240 --> 01:19:02,280
Speaker 1: So we that's another just point of why you know,

1359
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:07,320
Speaker 1: guarding the gate this these ideas are so important. Yeah,

1360
01:19:07,479 --> 01:19:09,800
Speaker 1: I'm with you, man, I do think we said this.

1361
01:19:10,720 --> 01:19:13,360
Speaker 1: We were talking to the animal rights folks. It's like

1362
01:19:13,400 --> 01:19:16,720
Speaker 1: when you go up to somebody and show them a

1363
01:19:16,840 --> 01:19:19,160
Speaker 1: slaughterhouse video and you say you like that, and they

1364
01:19:19,160 --> 01:19:23,719
Speaker 1: say no, you join us, And they say, okay, Um,

1365
01:19:23,760 --> 01:19:27,280
Speaker 1: are you really creating like a healthy movement there? Are you?

1366
01:19:27,439 --> 01:19:29,800
Speaker 1: Are you having people come into your movement in a

1367
01:19:29,840 --> 01:19:33,280
Speaker 1: way that's healthy? Um? I say no, And I think

1368
01:19:33,320 --> 01:19:36,680
Speaker 1: that's born out by what we see. But exactly what

1369
01:19:36,720 --> 01:19:39,200
Speaker 1: you said, I think is true, Like we we need

1370
01:19:39,240 --> 01:19:40,920
Speaker 1: to find a way to get people in in a

1371
01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:42,920
Speaker 1: very healthy way, bring them in in the ways that

1372
01:19:42,960 --> 01:19:46,800
Speaker 1: we already have expressing, like you said, educating them expressing

1373
01:19:46,800 --> 01:19:50,840
Speaker 1: our values, educating on conservation, on wildlife management, on the

1374
01:19:50,840 --> 01:19:53,400
Speaker 1: philosophies we discussed here today. And then once we get

1375
01:19:53,439 --> 01:19:55,599
Speaker 1: them in here, we gotta say, hey, look, if you

1376
01:19:55,680 --> 01:19:59,280
Speaker 1: really feel like we feel, then you got to look

1377
01:19:59,320 --> 01:20:00,720
Speaker 1: around you and see that there are a lot of

1378
01:20:00,720 --> 01:20:03,000
Speaker 1: people that that want to take it away. UM. And

1379
01:20:03,040 --> 01:20:06,120
Speaker 1: the combination of creating a healthy movement of people to

1380
01:20:06,200 --> 01:20:09,040
Speaker 1: have a really good perspective on why they're here, and

1381
01:20:09,080 --> 01:20:12,479
Speaker 1: then giving them the knowledge that this is under threat

1382
01:20:12,640 --> 01:20:15,000
Speaker 1: and you can help. You don't have to fight, you

1383
01:20:15,000 --> 01:20:17,120
Speaker 1: don't have to punch people, but you have to educate them,

1384
01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:20,120
Speaker 1: tell them what's up, tell them why you love this, UM.

1385
01:20:20,160 --> 01:20:23,000
Speaker 1: And that's how you know guys like Jonathan Wilkins, who's

1386
01:20:23,040 --> 01:20:25,519
Speaker 1: your buddy down there in Arkansas, who's an African American

1387
01:20:25,520 --> 01:20:30,640
Speaker 1: waterfowl hunter. UM. You know, anybody from any gender, any identity,

1388
01:20:30,760 --> 01:20:34,880
Speaker 1: any cultural background, any place in our society can can

1389
01:20:34,880 --> 01:20:37,040
Speaker 1: tell everyone this is why I love this, and I'm

1390
01:20:37,040 --> 01:20:39,040
Speaker 1: gonna fight for this, and I'm gonna do I'm gonna

1391
01:20:39,120 --> 01:20:41,320
Speaker 1: educate everyone on this so it stays the way that

1392
01:20:41,400 --> 01:20:44,840
Speaker 1: it is. Maybe that's a good combo. It's first I've

1393
01:20:44,840 --> 01:20:47,840
Speaker 1: ever articulated that, But maybe maybe that's the way that

1394
01:20:47,880 --> 01:20:50,760
Speaker 1: we can build something that's really long standing and not

1395
01:20:50,880 --> 01:20:56,640
Speaker 1: only defensive in its nature. Yep, we're gonna explore the

1396
01:20:56,680 --> 01:20:59,400
Speaker 1: ship out of that um and the months to come. Man.

1397
01:20:59,439 --> 01:21:02,040
Speaker 1: And when I was thinking about this and thinking about

1398
01:21:02,640 --> 01:21:04,320
Speaker 1: I want to have you on more. I mean, it's

1399
01:21:04,360 --> 01:21:07,839
Speaker 1: like it's the perfect thing to give people pretty regular

1400
01:21:07,880 --> 01:21:12,559
Speaker 1: perspective in one on, a good way to uphold what

1401
01:21:12,600 --> 01:21:15,240
Speaker 1: we do and and keep things moving in the direction

1402
01:21:15,280 --> 01:21:19,799
Speaker 1: we want them to go right on. Thank you, Clay Newcome.

1403
01:21:20,000 --> 01:21:23,880
Speaker 1: The other thing I'm passionate about is uh, skinning squirrels

1404
01:21:23,880 --> 01:21:27,000
Speaker 1: fast and making squirrel tail Christmas ornaments, So we could

1405
01:21:27,000 --> 01:21:30,799
Speaker 1: talk about that too. Yeah, we're gonna have Clay's Craft

1406
01:21:30,960 --> 01:21:33,760
Speaker 1: Hour where you come in. Yeah, if you haven't seen

1407
01:21:33,760 --> 01:21:37,519
Speaker 1: Clay's video on how to make a squirreltael Christmas ornament. Uh,

1408
01:21:37,560 --> 01:21:40,599
Speaker 1: you're you're You're not a hillbilly, You're not a red kneck.

1409
01:21:40,800 --> 01:21:45,040
Speaker 1: You don't care about those values your bastards. Do you

1410
01:21:45,120 --> 01:21:47,519
Speaker 1: want to make any you wanna make any kind of

1411
01:21:48,520 --> 01:21:51,639
Speaker 1: call out there to the rednecks and hillbillies to join

1412
01:21:51,840 --> 01:21:55,080
Speaker 1: the squirrel tail ornament movement or is there any sort

1413
01:21:55,120 --> 01:21:57,680
Speaker 1: of Well, I think it's like a litmus test for

1414
01:21:57,720 --> 01:22:00,600
Speaker 1: being a hillbilly. Is if you click to watch that

1415
01:22:00,760 --> 01:22:05,520
Speaker 1: video and have positive emotions afterwards. If that happens to you,

1416
01:22:05,520 --> 01:22:08,240
Speaker 1: you might be a hillbilly. You just might be. I

1417
01:22:08,280 --> 01:22:11,479
Speaker 1: was looking at some old pictures of hunting when I

1418
01:22:11,520 --> 01:22:14,200
Speaker 1: was a kid, and I'm like, dude, we were hillbilly.

1419
01:22:16,200 --> 01:22:18,880
Speaker 1: We were. We were the hillbilliest people I've ever seen.

1420
01:22:19,240 --> 01:22:21,200
Speaker 1: And I love it. Uh And I still do the

1421
01:22:21,600 --> 01:22:25,639
Speaker 1: term of endearment to me. Oh, it's only endearment. Hillbilly,

1422
01:22:25,760 --> 01:22:29,440
Speaker 1: especially rednecks been kind of turned around, but hillbilly yea exactly,

1423
01:22:29,920 --> 01:22:34,120
Speaker 1: even the ones from Beverly We're good. So all right, Clayn,

1424
01:22:34,120 --> 01:22:36,120
Speaker 1: you can get out of here, go guard the gate.

1425
01:22:36,120 --> 01:22:47,160
Speaker 1: We'll see you next time. Brother. That's it. That's all

1426
01:22:47,200 --> 01:22:53,400
Speaker 1: another episode of the Hunting Collective podcast in the books,

1427
01:22:54,120 --> 01:22:57,400
Speaker 1: it's almost the break, Phil and so you guys know,

1428
01:22:57,840 --> 01:23:02,680
Speaker 1: we gotta give Phil Philly Engineer and Phil Jr. Hayden

1429
01:23:02,720 --> 01:23:04,920
Speaker 1: his real name is Hayden. We can reveal that now

1430
01:23:05,560 --> 01:23:07,680
Speaker 1: we like Hayden. We hope he sticks around even though

1431
01:23:07,720 --> 01:23:11,599
Speaker 1: we mistreat him. Um, Hayden and Phil, our podcast team

1432
01:23:11,640 --> 01:23:16,000
Speaker 1: and Krin the producer work incredibly hard right before our

1433
01:23:16,080 --> 01:23:19,040
Speaker 1: holiday break at our company to pack in as many

1434
01:23:19,040 --> 01:23:23,000
Speaker 1: podcasts as humanly possible, so that they can actually get

1435
01:23:23,040 --> 01:23:27,680
Speaker 1: a break, go on vacation, and that those podcasts still

1436
01:23:27,720 --> 01:23:30,400
Speaker 1: are coming into your iTunes. So if you're out there

1437
01:23:31,439 --> 01:23:33,880
Speaker 1: and you are wondering how it is that we're not

1438
01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:37,280
Speaker 1: working on the holidays but you're still getting four or

1439
01:23:37,280 --> 01:23:41,160
Speaker 1: five weekly Mediator podcasts, it's because of Hayden and Phil

1440
01:23:41,400 --> 01:23:44,960
Speaker 1: and Karn that that is happening. And so what you

1441
01:23:45,120 --> 01:23:50,000
Speaker 1: wanna do is just bombard at Phil Taylor with as

1442
01:23:50,080 --> 01:23:53,120
Speaker 1: many thank you's she possibly can as you listen to

1443
01:23:53,160 --> 01:23:55,240
Speaker 1: the best of episodes at t C. You listen to

1444
01:23:55,320 --> 01:23:58,280
Speaker 1: Roummy Warren's podcast Cutting the Distance. You listen to Bent,

1445
01:23:58,400 --> 01:24:00,559
Speaker 1: the Phishing podcast on the Media Now Work. You listen

1446
01:24:00,600 --> 01:24:03,720
Speaker 1: to The Mediator podcast with Steve Ronnella and the hospitell

1447
01:24:03,840 --> 01:24:07,200
Speaker 1: Us Ryan Callahan. You listen to Mark Kenyan's Wired to Hunt,

1448
01:24:07,960 --> 01:24:11,360
Speaker 1: I miss Any, Phil Cow's Weekend Review Cals. We can

1449
01:24:11,479 --> 01:24:15,160
Speaker 1: review Cal, Sorry, Buddy, um all that stuff. Man. We

1450
01:24:15,240 --> 01:24:17,679
Speaker 1: have a pile of content that comes out every week

1451
01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:20,080
Speaker 1: and it just doesn't magically appear there. There has to

1452
01:24:20,080 --> 01:24:22,439
Speaker 1: be somebody like Phil at the helm of the ship,

1453
01:24:23,320 --> 01:24:27,720
Speaker 1: steering us into the future, bravely, boldly, we're going where

1454
01:24:27,720 --> 01:24:31,200
Speaker 1: no man has gone before. Phil Jr. At his side,

1455
01:24:31,560 --> 01:24:34,640
Speaker 1: Phil any uh, any commentary? Please give a speech. No,

1456
01:24:34,800 --> 01:24:38,559
Speaker 1: you wrapped it up. I appreciate the thoughts, Ben, Um,

1457
01:24:38,600 --> 01:24:41,240
Speaker 1: and I'm I'm happy to do it. Yeah, I'm I'm

1458
01:24:41,320 --> 01:24:44,680
Speaker 1: very excited for Christmas and I'm it is. It is

1459
01:24:44,720 --> 01:24:48,320
Speaker 1: no no sweat getting these podcasts done. Um. I'm glad

1460
01:24:48,360 --> 01:24:51,040
Speaker 1: to keep the content coming throughout the break because I

1461
01:24:51,080 --> 01:24:55,000
Speaker 1: know that I I would appreciate it. Um. If I

1462
01:24:55,040 --> 01:24:56,880
Speaker 1: were a listener of this show, which I am not,

1463
01:24:57,240 --> 01:25:00,280
Speaker 1: I'd like to say I've never heard an episode, but

1464
01:25:00,320 --> 01:25:03,680
Speaker 1: if I were, I would I would like to have

1465
01:25:03,800 --> 01:25:06,599
Speaker 1: the episodes coming over the break. And Uh, I'm more

1466
01:25:06,600 --> 01:25:08,640
Speaker 1: than happy to get it done. So thank thank you

1467
01:25:08,680 --> 01:25:11,760
Speaker 1: Ben for putting us all together. No no problem. I

1468
01:25:11,800 --> 01:25:14,200
Speaker 1: would say, if you're listening, you know, if you're laying

1469
01:25:14,280 --> 01:25:18,960
Speaker 1: by a warm fire, drinking eggnog, uh, singing Christmas carols

1470
01:25:18,960 --> 01:25:23,320
Speaker 1: with your family, uh, drinking white claw heavily and crying

1471
01:25:23,320 --> 01:25:27,400
Speaker 1: in the corner like I might be, you should remember

1472
01:25:27,400 --> 01:25:29,200
Speaker 1: that there's people out there like Phil that are got

1473
01:25:29,240 --> 01:25:33,519
Speaker 1: your fucking back and they're supporting you even know you've

1474
01:25:33,560 --> 01:25:37,479
Speaker 1: done nothing to deserve it this holiday season. So that's

1475
01:25:37,520 --> 01:25:42,920
Speaker 1: what that's my pep talk? Is that good? Phil as

1476
01:25:42,960 --> 01:25:46,160
Speaker 1: a pep talk? No, that was very bad, bad, all right,

1477
01:25:46,320 --> 01:25:49,000
Speaker 1: cut that cut that. We'll bring it back in something better.

1478
01:25:49,280 --> 01:25:52,519
Speaker 1: All right. We're gonna get two beautiful weeks of best stus.

1479
01:25:52,560 --> 01:25:54,720
Speaker 1: We're gonna crank out some of the best moments of

1480
01:25:54,720 --> 01:25:58,080
Speaker 1: the last year. It has been a trying year for

1481
01:25:58,120 --> 01:26:01,280
Speaker 1: all of us. So thank you for or sticking in there.

1482
01:26:01,439 --> 01:26:04,960
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to this program, Thanks for tolerating

1483
01:26:05,000 --> 01:26:08,240
Speaker 1: our jokes and our poop stories. Thanks for digging into

1484
01:26:08,240 --> 01:26:10,559
Speaker 1: the hearts hard stuff with us, and so its faith

1485
01:26:10,560 --> 01:26:15,599
Speaker 1: and hunting, veganism, animal rights, predator management in this country,

1486
01:26:15,640 --> 01:26:17,360
Speaker 1: all the things that we've touched on in this last

1487
01:26:17,439 --> 01:26:20,880
Speaker 1: year all very important to us. And it's also important

1488
01:26:20,880 --> 01:26:23,439
Speaker 1: to have a good laugh. Never take yourself too seriously.

1489
01:26:23,560 --> 01:26:26,040
Speaker 1: We sure don't hear the Hunting collective. So we hope

1490
01:26:26,040 --> 01:26:28,400
Speaker 1: you have a great holiday season. Phil, tell these people

1491
01:26:28,439 --> 01:26:33,640
Speaker 1: by goodbye, have a great holiday, because I can't go

1492
01:26:33,800 --> 01:26:38,719
Speaker 1: a week without doing rong. Oh withou