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Speaker 1: Welcome to a special edition of the No Dunks Podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Leelis. I've got Tas and Trey here with me,

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Speaker 1: and of course the man making the magic happen, JD.

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Speaker 1: Today we are joined by a very special guest. He

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Speaker 1: is the vice chairman of Charlotte Hornet Sports and Entertainment.

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Speaker 1: He's been one of Michael Jordan's closest and most trusted

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Speaker 1: advisors for decades. He was a co producer of Space

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Speaker 1: Jam and is an executive producer of the ratings hit

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Speaker 1: ten part documentary The Last Dance. He is Curtis Polk. Curtis,

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Speaker 1: thanks for joining us today.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me today.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's start with the ratings, Curtis. For the documentary,

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Speaker 1: we're four episodes in and according to ESPN, we have

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Speaker 1: averaged six million viewers for each episode and now with

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Speaker 1: additional reporting available, episode one is up over nine million

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Speaker 1: and episode two is closing in on nine million. Right now,

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Speaker 1: how do those numbers align with what you had hope

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Speaker 1: for when the series was released two weeks ago.

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Speaker 2: You know, we really didn't have a lot of transparency

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Speaker 2: into that. Obviously, with everybody at home, we thought that

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Speaker 2: the numbers were likely to be large, but just to

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Speaker 2: give you perspective, the two largest audiences that watched a

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Speaker 2: first run version of a sports documentary in the history

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Speaker 2: of the United States were Bonos, which was a thirty

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Speaker 2: for thirty that was played I think in twenty eleven

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Speaker 2: or twelve. Right after that the Heisman Trophy Award was

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Speaker 2: given out on a Saturday night and that I think

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Speaker 2: had about three point six million viewers for the first time.

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Speaker 2: And oj documentary that ESPN did and it debuted on

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Speaker 2: a Sunday night on ABC TV, I believe, either I

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Speaker 2: think right before or after an NBA Finals broadcast, it

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Speaker 2: had about three point million viewers, So you know, the

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Speaker 2: six million was about double, you know, for the first

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Speaker 2: run of it. My understanding is we're also over a

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Speaker 2: nine million now when you take into account people who

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Speaker 2: watched a rerun of it last week or ad dvard

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Speaker 2: it or did a streaming of view on ESPN.

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Speaker 1: Plus well, as I mentioned there, we are four episodes in,

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Speaker 1: and you know, it's been great for me and for

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Speaker 1: the other guys here on the line. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: been like traveling in a time machine in some way,

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Speaker 1: taking us back. You know, it's hard to believe it's

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Speaker 1: been twenty two years ago to the day, but as

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Speaker 1: with anything Michael Jordan related, expectations are high. People expect

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Speaker 1: it to be great around the world. My dad and

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Speaker 1: Australia in fact has been watching it and talking to

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Speaker 1: me about it. But with that excitement obviously comes a

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Speaker 1: lot of pressure. You know, as someone who Michael trusts explicitly,

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Speaker 1: did you feel pressure to get this documentary absolutely perfect?

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Speaker 2: I think that, you know, as working with Michael for

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Speaker 2: thirty years. As most things, it's the key is to

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Speaker 2: be authentic and genuine, not to try to create something

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Speaker 2: that is fabricated that people nowadays in particular could see through.

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Speaker 2: So I think what you're seeing, obviously the backbone of

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Speaker 2: the documentary is the actual footage that was taken during

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Speaker 2: the ninety seven ninety eight season and it's been stored

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Speaker 2: away for roughly twenty two years. And then you can

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Speaker 2: see that the current day interviews are very genuine, authentic.

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Speaker 2: They are not scripted. The participants did not have the

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Speaker 2: questions in advance, and I think you're getting real, raw responses.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think with Michael, I think that's something

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Speaker 1: we're really seeing that we haven't seen a lot of

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Speaker 1: because he doesn't do a lot of media, and when

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Speaker 1: he does, it's often in an environment where you know,

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Speaker 1: he's in a suit and he's you know, talking business.

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Speaker 1: But right now we're seeing him there. He's got a

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Speaker 1: glass at the keeler, he's got a he's swearing, he's

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Speaker 1: got a T shirt on.

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Speaker 2: He looks.

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Speaker 1: I mean, but it's true, I don't really remember seeing

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Speaker 1: him in an environment like that. Was that something that

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Speaker 1: he had to be kind of talked in to say, listen,

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Speaker 1: you need to be you know, your real self here,

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Speaker 1: or was that him just saying, you know, it's time

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Speaker 1: to do this doc now, and this is how I

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Speaker 1: want to the image of myself to be.

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Speaker 2: Now. It's just, you know, the first he sat for

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Speaker 2: three interviews. In the first interview, although he had met

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Speaker 2: the director a couple times before just to get to

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Speaker 2: know him socially, Jason Hare, who was our director, really

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Speaker 2: didn't know what to expect in the first interview, And

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Speaker 2: as I think he has said in a few interviews

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Speaker 2: over the past couple of weeks, you know, within the

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Speaker 2: first half hour forty five minutes he realized that they

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Speaker 2: had developed a really good comfort level and rapport and

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Speaker 2: that you know, some of the things that Jason was

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Speaker 2: concer learned about we're going to be barriers didn't exist,

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Speaker 2: so it just took off organically.

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Speaker 1: So going back then, you know you mentioned here that

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Speaker 1: this footag has obviously been involved for twenty two years

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Speaker 1: and Michael apparently was the one who had total control

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Speaker 1: over when it would be released. So what was it

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Speaker 1: that prompted the documentary to be made and to be released?

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Speaker 2: Now, well, let me just clarify. So back in nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety seven when the film crew was the idea came

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Speaker 2: up through Adam Silver, who at the time was the

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Speaker 2: head of MBA Entertainment to embed a film crew in

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Speaker 2: the ninety seven ninety eight Bulls practices and traveling and

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Speaker 2: taking additional game footage. It was agreed to by obviously

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Speaker 2: the NBA, the Chicago Bulls, and Michael Jordan and his

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Speaker 2: business associates. It was always agreed to historally that it

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Speaker 2: would never be used unless all three parties agreed to it.

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Speaker 2: So all three of those parties of the NBA, the

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Speaker 2: Bulls organization and Michael Jordan agreed that it was time

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Speaker 2: to produce this documentary. Now, why it took so long. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I think you asked why it took so long,

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Speaker 2: you know. I think the first time we really visited

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Speaker 2: doing something with it was probably around two thousand and three,

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Speaker 2: after Michael had got back and played for the Wizards

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Speaker 2: for a couple of years. And you know, back then,

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Speaker 2: a documentary, if it was longer than you know, eighty

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Speaker 2: or ninety minutes, it would put you to sleep. We

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Speaker 2: just weren't used to long form episodic documentaries. So we

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Speaker 2: had interviewed a few production companies. They had viewed some

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Speaker 2: of the footage that we had, and they came up

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Speaker 2: with some outlines, and some of them had even done

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Speaker 2: some mock ups, and it just it didn't capture or

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Speaker 2: what we had. You couldn't capture it in an eighty

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Speaker 2: to ninety minute documentary, particularly if you wanted to supplement

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Speaker 2: that with current day interviews. So two or three times

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Speaker 2: we looked at it during that probably two thousand and

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Speaker 2: three to twenty ten time period, and we always felt like, nah,

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Speaker 2: you're never going to be able to really tell this

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Speaker 2: story properly. And then about twenty fifteen, we started to

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Speaker 2: see documentaries like oj Maide in America come out Making

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Speaker 2: of a Murderer. There was a couple other ones that

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Speaker 2: were on some of these streaming services, and we started

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Speaker 2: to get the feeling that under that type of scenario

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Speaker 2: you could make this documentary and give the full scope

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Speaker 2: of what it represented.

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Speaker 3: I think that's so interesting, because you're right to have

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Speaker 3: an hour and a half two hour version of this

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Speaker 3: seems so minuscule compared to the depth of the story

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Speaker 3: that we're telling. Was that something that was kind of

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Speaker 3: once you figured out that this was going to be

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Speaker 3: able to be ten hours long, was it then decided

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Speaker 3: we're going into the backstory of Scottie Pippen, We're going

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Speaker 3: into the backstory of Dennis Rodman? Or was it more

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Speaker 3: along the lines of, Wow, we've always wanted to tell

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Speaker 3: this story this way. Finally people are in on being

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Speaker 3: able to watch ten hours of the same story told

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Speaker 3: in a different way.

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Speaker 2: Well, and again, I don't want to give anything away,

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Speaker 2: but because obviously there's six expisodes left it although although

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Speaker 2: we all know what happened at the end of ninety

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Speaker 2: seven ninety eight, I think some of the things like

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Speaker 2: that you're seeing, like the Dennis Rodman needs a vacation.

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Speaker 2: Last week are things that are you know, surprises to people.

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Speaker 2: So let's take a look at you know, one of

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Speaker 2: the things that obviously was concerning, particularly when we looked

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Speaker 2: at the footage that we had many years ago and

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Speaker 2: thought about putting it into a documentary, is Michael's ferocity

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Speaker 2: and toughness on his teammates and his singular desire to win.

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Speaker 2: If you just looked at that, either in a short

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Speaker 2: form documentary or even just through the lens of ninety

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Speaker 2: seven ninety eight, you couldn't really truly tell that story.

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Speaker 2: So you know, in episode two, we went backwards so

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Speaker 2: that the spine of the documentary is through the lens

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Speaker 2: of the ninety seven ninety eight season. But throughout the

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Speaker 2: first four episodes you've seen us go backwards to tell

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Speaker 2: either some of the backstories about the characters or some

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Speaker 2: of the backstories about the bulls and the things that

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Speaker 2: led up to that tension of ninety seven ninety eight.

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Speaker 2: So in this case of Michael's competitive roots, you saw

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Speaker 2: us go all the way back to his childhood in Wilmington,

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Speaker 2: North Carolina, and interview his two brothers in current day,

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Speaker 2: and and you even saw some footage we had of

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Speaker 2: his father talking about the competition between Michael and his

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Speaker 2: brother Larry, and I think that that was important for

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Speaker 2: us to be able to portray to the audience so

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Speaker 2: that they could really understand where did Michael get this

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Speaker 2: ferocity and competitiveness from.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's known certainly for always finding a slight like

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Speaker 1: we saw it in the the game five there against

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Speaker 1: the Cleveland Cavaliers where he went up to the beat

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Speaker 1: writers and basically, you know, said we took care of you,

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Speaker 1: We took care of you, and now we're going to

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Speaker 1: take care of you, referencing Sam Smith. So he was

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Speaker 1: always looking for that competitive advantage. But one of the

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Speaker 1: relationships that we saw very early on here was the

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Speaker 1: relationship there with Jerry Krause and how that was played out.

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Speaker 1: And you know, Michael said before this documentary was released,

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Speaker 1: he might look like a bad guy to some people

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Speaker 1: because of the way that you know, that relationship was

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Speaker 1: and how he spoke and other players spoke towards Jerry. Now,

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Speaker 1: Jerry's obviously no longer with us, But was there an

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Speaker 1: attempt made to speak to Jerry's family or someone on

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Speaker 1: his behalf to provide his side of the story.

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Speaker 2: Well, I will say one of our greatest disappointments is

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Speaker 2: that Jerry died before we started doing current day interviews

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Speaker 2: for this documentary. He would be the one person that

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Speaker 2: we would have probably loved to have interviewed that we

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Speaker 2: didn't get to interview. We did not I don't believe

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Speaker 2: that we tried to speak to any of his family members,

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Speaker 2: but obviously we had a lot of access to Bulls executives,

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Speaker 2: former and current. A lot of people that were around

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Speaker 2: in the eighties and nineties are working for the Bulls.

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Speaker 2: John Packson is involved with the Bulls front office. Tony

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Speaker 2: Kuk coaches involved, Scottie Pippen was involved until a year ago. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: the Rhine Store family still controls the Bulls, so Jim Stack,

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Speaker 2: some of the people that worked in the PR department.

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Speaker 2: So we had a lot of access and you'll see

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Speaker 2: a lot of those people gain an interview as the

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Speaker 2: documentary progresses. You know, we would have loved to have

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Speaker 2: Jerry tell the story from his from his point, from

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Speaker 2: his point of view, and let's not forget I mean,

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Speaker 2: Jerry was the general manager, but he worked for an

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Speaker 2: organization and I'm sure that you know the decisions that

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Speaker 2: he executed were not ones that he made in a vacuum.

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Speaker 1: One of the storylines that I really loved and we

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Speaker 1: saw on Sunday night was that the Michael and Isaiah beef.

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Speaker 1: I mean that you know, their opponents, and obviously the

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Speaker 1: Bulls and the Pistons had a vicious rivalry. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I've heard Michael say over the years that you know,

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Speaker 1: going through those tough times with Detroit helped him become

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Speaker 1: a better athlete and a better competitor and toughened him

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Speaker 1: up for eventually when he you know, took over in

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Speaker 1: the nineties. But seeing Michael's kind of dismissive approach to

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Speaker 1: what Isaiah had to say about the incident in ninety

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Speaker 1: one when the Pistons walked off without shaking hands, I mean,

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Speaker 1: that sort of brought you back into the moment and

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Speaker 1: again you could feel that tension. Was there any reluctance

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Speaker 1: on Michael to approach that or even from Isaiah because

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Speaker 1: Isaiah he says why he did it and he kind

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Speaker 1: of regrets it, and Michael says, well, you know, I

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Speaker 1: know he's going to kind of change the narrative a

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Speaker 1: little bit now, but he doesn't respect what the Pistons did.

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Speaker 1: But so when you get to that point, you know,

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Speaker 1: how does how do you approach that with Michael? And

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Speaker 1: then how do you approach that with Isaiah?

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Speaker 2: You know, again, Jason, who conducted almost all of the interviews,

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Speaker 2: is really good at making his interview. He's very comfortable

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Speaker 2: and you know, he asked the questions and if people

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Speaker 2: were comfortable answering them, we captured it. If they weren't,

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Speaker 2: there's there's definitely things that we tried to elicit from

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Speaker 2: participants that we couldn't get the response that was worthy

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Speaker 2: of really putting in the documentary. But again, we gave

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Speaker 2: everybody the chance to tell their side of the story.

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Speaker 2: And if you like that interview, which is one of

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Speaker 2: my favorite in the first four, you're going to see

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Speaker 2: some real gets in the next six episode.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that was an incredible scene, Curtis. I mean, knowing

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Speaker 3: MJ quite well, you must know basically how he feels

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Speaker 3: about a lot of this kind of stuff. Has there

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Speaker 3: been anything we've seen so far that surprised even you?

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Speaker 2: You know, one of the things that was interesting from

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Speaker 2: the fourth episode the other night, which what's great is

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Speaker 2: I started working for Michael and his family in nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty nine, so I was there during the nineties, the

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Speaker 2: first championship. Obviously the season the documentary is based on,

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Speaker 2: but one of the things that struck me the other night,

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Speaker 2: and it's interesting to hear people give me feedback who

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Speaker 2: weren't intimately involved back then, or maybe they're younger people

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Speaker 2: who really didn't even live there, or lived during that

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Speaker 2: time period, or were too young to remember. It is

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Speaker 2: the celebration that the Bulls had after beating the Pistons

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Speaker 2: in that series in nineteen ninety one. People are commenting

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Speaker 2: to me, wow, like, is that like the real footage,

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Speaker 2: Like there's popping champagne and Jerry Krause is dancing on

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Speaker 2: the plane. And then one of the things that was

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Speaker 2: a little confusing. I don't know if you all saw it.

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Speaker 2: We had to edit some of the clips out that

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Speaker 2: we wanted to use. The Bulls had made up these

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Speaker 2: T shirts that said three peat on the front and

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Speaker 2: on the back they said bull sh blank t with

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Speaker 2: a mad bull. And because you know, back then it

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Speaker 2: was unheard of to three peat, nobody had done it.

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Speaker 2: I don't believe since the Celtics, you know, in the

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Speaker 2: modern day, no one had done it. Obviously when the

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Speaker 2: Celtics won whatever they won nine to ten championships, it

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Speaker 2: was you know, you're only playing I think amongst eight teams,

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Speaker 2: and a bunch of teams had tried to get to

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Speaker 2: a three pet Lakers Celtics in the in the eighties,

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Speaker 2: and then the Pistons were trying to do it. So

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Speaker 2: they were talking about getting a three peat and they

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Speaker 2: had these shirts made, and as I said, we had

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Speaker 2: to cut out the scenes where you really saw the

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Speaker 2: shirt because when we were showing it to people, as

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Speaker 2: we were editing it and putting it together and we

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Speaker 2: would do little samplings, people would say, wait a minute,

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Speaker 2: where's that footage from the three peet You know, that

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Speaker 2: wasn't until ninety four. So rather than try to explain

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Speaker 2: it in the documentary, we edited some of that, but

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Speaker 2: they would get long winded. Here is that. That is

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Speaker 2: something I didn't really appreciate before. You know, how much

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Speaker 2: they celebrated and let loose just by beating the Pistons.

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Speaker 2: You know a lot of times you would say, oh

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Speaker 2: my god, you all prematurely celebrate. You still got a

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Speaker 2: championship to go try and win, and it wasn't that

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Speaker 2: Michael was overlooking magic in the Lakers, because he even

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Speaker 2: says that, I think in the Current Day interview that

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Speaker 2: took place right after the celebration, it was just it

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Speaker 2: was such a long struggle to get past the Pistons,

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Speaker 2: and they had fought so hard and the series were

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Speaker 2: so physical in eighty eight, eighty nine, eighty nine, ninety

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Speaker 2: ninety one, that you know, getting over that hump just

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Speaker 2: meant so much, whether they won the championship that year

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Speaker 2: or not. So that celebration and the visceral reaction that

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Speaker 2: I'm getting from people who watched that episode has surprised me.

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Speaker 4: Yes, Sunday definitely through Detroit Pistons basketball Twitter into a tizzy.

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Speaker 4: They were up and ready to talk about the potential

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Speaker 4: three pet that they almost had. And it's fun seeing

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Speaker 4: other basketball fan bases come up and start this conversation.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 4: The conversation that I'm extremely interested in is later on

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Speaker 4: in these episodes because Michael Jordan, to me, the most

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Speaker 4: confident basketball player that's ever lived, and he revealed or

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Speaker 4: came out with the statement prior to the Last Dance

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Speaker 4: beginning saying that some people might look at me as

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Speaker 4: a terrible teammate after watching these ten episodes. So I'm

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Speaker 4: really intrigued to see how he will be viewed in

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Speaker 4: the fact that MJ, the most confident basketball player in

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Speaker 4: my perspective, from my perspective, even had some sort of

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Speaker 4: reluctance and even you know, even considered the other side

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Speaker 4: is really fascinating to me. So was MJ really concerned?

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Speaker 4: Is he concerned? And how will he be viewed after

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Speaker 4: all this and what can we expect from from that perspective.

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Speaker 2: I think that you know, if you go back to

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Speaker 2: the beginning of our chat today, when we were looking

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Speaker 2: at it in the old school documentary format of eighty

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Speaker 2: ninety minutes, yes, we were very concerned. When you look

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Speaker 2: at the footage of ninety seven ninety eight, which would

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Speaker 2: have had to dominate a ninety minute documentary, he would

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Speaker 2: have come across very harsh and it would have been

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Speaker 2: difficult to really tell the story for people to understand that.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't that he was mean spirited or tyrant, but

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Speaker 2: you know, he was so committed to winning, and he

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Speaker 2: never asked anybody to do anything that he himself wouldn't

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Speaker 2: do to make the sacrifices for that greatness. You're going

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Speaker 2: to see that come out more and more as the episodes.

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Speaker 2: You know, I don't want to give anything away, but

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Speaker 2: you'll see that come out more and more as the

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Speaker 2: episodes progress, and you'll see a lot of current day

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Speaker 2: interviews with many of the players that he played with,

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Speaker 2: some who had significant roles and some who were very lesser,

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Speaker 2: lesser role players who talk about that, who get asked

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Speaker 2: that by Jason, and you'll be very interested, I think,

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Speaker 2: to hear the different responses.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's been it's been a good couple of weeks

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Speaker 1: so far for Scott Burrell, whether he likes it or not.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they say infamy is better than being famous,

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Speaker 1: but I guess that's that is as well what people

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Speaker 1: are looking for us to see. You know, most basketball

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Speaker 1: fans are aware of Scotti, Pippen, and Horace Grant because

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Speaker 1: those were integral parts of those teams. So you know,

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Speaker 1: without obviously giving it away, what sort of stories lines

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Speaker 1: did you try to focus on that showed some of

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Speaker 1: the lesser known players who had a larger impact on

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Speaker 1: not only the success but maybe the influence of Michael

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Speaker 1: and what he was able to get out of those players.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you're going to see more things about Scott Barrell,

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Speaker 2: some off courts, some on court things that I think

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Speaker 2: people will be very interested in. You're going to see

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Speaker 2: a good story coming up in this Sunday's episode around

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Speaker 2: the Dream Team and Tony Kuk coach. And you know

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Speaker 2: a lot of people either might not remember or didn't

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Speaker 2: really focus on it that the Bulls had drafted Tony

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Speaker 2: ku coach I believe in nineteen ninety could have been

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety one, but they stashed him draft and stash,

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Speaker 2: which is a concept in the NBA, left him playing

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Speaker 2: overseas in Europe where he was from, and now he

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Speaker 2: has But Krause had made a big deal about Coup coach,

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Speaker 2: how greedy was going to be, and he was going

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Speaker 2: to be the next Magic Johnson, I think is how

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Speaker 2: he described him. And now two of the balls, Michael

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Speaker 2: and Scutti are on the Dream Team and Lo and

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Speaker 2: Behold they're going to meet Tony and his team at

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Speaker 2: the Olympics. So that's going to be a very interesting

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Speaker 2: story and I think that's coming up in I think

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Speaker 2: it's an episode five, it's in five or six, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: it should be the next episode episode five.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well that's going to be fascinating because again, if

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Speaker 1: you followed basketball around that time, you know that Michael

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Speaker 1: and Scotty wanted to send a message to Tony at

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Speaker 1: the Olympics and largely did so. So but again that

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Speaker 1: sort of is interesting for me because it brings Jerry

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Speaker 1: Krause back into it because even though the relationship there

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Speaker 1: between Jerry and the players was frictional, he was clearly

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Speaker 1: good at his job. He was able to recruit the

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Speaker 1: right players and make big deals and big trades. So

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Speaker 1: it's good to see, of course, you know, shining a

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Speaker 1: light on Jerry's success within uilding that team rather than

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Speaker 1: just sort of, you know, as sort of a guy

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Speaker 1: who's a peripheral player. For this documentary series.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to spoil anything, so but I'll give

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Speaker 2: you a little teaser. In episode nine, there is a

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Speaker 2: really really compelling story about one of one of Michael's

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Speaker 2: teammates from the Bulls that I'm not I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to share with you all. But but what one that

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Speaker 2: that people will really find very poignant and interesting.

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Speaker 4: So episode nine, that's a that's a story about May.

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Speaker 4: So I'm gonna guess I have no idea. I'm just

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Speaker 4: I'm just kidding, but I mean it is easy to

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Speaker 4: follow along. And as as producers, you all made a

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Speaker 4: good decision just you know, to to go sort of

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Speaker 4: month by month as the episodes have gone along, it's

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Speaker 4: been easy to follow. Uh and uh even for non

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Speaker 4: basketball fans. How you know, the visual timeline has been fantastic.

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Speaker 4: Has there been a story that's been tough to tell

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Speaker 4: from your perspective, one that was sort of difficult to

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Speaker 4: get across to the viewer.

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Speaker 2: I think that we're going to start tackling some difficult topics,

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Speaker 2: topics that I think people are going to be very

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Speaker 2: interested to see how we handle them. You know, whether

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Speaker 2: it be the nineteen ninety two Bulls with the Sam

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Speaker 2: Smith book that came out, the Jordan Rules and a

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Speaker 2: lot of locker room gossip and information that either leaked

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Speaker 2: out or got blown out of proportion and Sam wrote

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Speaker 2: a book about it, Michael going to Atlantic City during

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Speaker 2: the playoff series with the New York Knicks on and

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Speaker 2: off day, and you know what, that blew into a

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Speaker 2: whole microscopic look at did Michael have a gambling problem?

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Speaker 2: And then an episode seven, I believe the murder of

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Speaker 2: Michael's father. It was obviously a very very difficult subject

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Speaker 2: to talk with him about and to and to have

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Speaker 2: to go back and portray in the documentary.

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Speaker 1: Was there anyone who declined to speak on this documentary

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Speaker 1: at any point for whatever reason?

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Speaker 2: Yes, but I would rather not. No, that's not who

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Speaker 2: they are.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because it seems again to me, you know, anything

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Speaker 1: attached to Michael, because we have him on such a

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Speaker 1: high standing in the basketball world, that people would like

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Speaker 1: to attach themselves and like to be involved and like

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Speaker 1: to share their story because you know that everyone's got

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Speaker 1: a different angle or a different thing that happened one day,

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Speaker 1: you know, with Michael Jordan. So you know, it's always

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Speaker 1: it's always interesting to see the guys who went up

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Speaker 1: against him and are now happy to sort of talk

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Speaker 1: about like what he was like as a competitor. I know,

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Speaker 1: I know Gary Payton's one of those ones. And that

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Speaker 1: just sort of brings me back here to wa. You know,

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Speaker 1: we see Shaq and Charles Barklay, who you know, they

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Speaker 1: fought a couple of times in the NBA, but their

435
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: friends and they you know, they've sort of forgotten what

436
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,439
Speaker 1: happened in the NBA. But why is it that the

437
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 1: Michael and the Isaiah. You know, history has never sort

438
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 1: of eased over time. Now that they're both retired and

439
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 1: no longer playing in the NBA.

440
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 2: You know, you're going to be surprised. I'll just leave

441
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 2: it at this. You'll be surprised when it gets to

442
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:32,360
Speaker 2: the Olympics, which obviously is another story about how Isaiah

443
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 2: felt about not being selected for the Dream Team and

444
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 2: what might have been the reasons. So I'll leave that

445
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 2: for next Sunday night. But I think you're going to

446
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 2: be very surprised at what Michael says current day regarding

447
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,640
Speaker 2: that and how he feels about Isaiah.

448
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 1: Well, that's one certainly that we'll be looking forward to.

449
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 1: Just shifting slightly here before we'd wrap up here, Curtis

450
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,360
Speaker 1: with the obviously the NBA has been suspended right now,

451
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,679
Speaker 1: we'd normally be in the playoffs. There's talk that perhaps

452
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 1: some gyms will be open for players to go and

453
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: start getting workouts in, you know, for the Charlotte Hornets.

454
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 1: You know what, what what is your sort of take

455
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 1: on where the where the season is right now? Do

456
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 1: you expect we'll be playing any basketball at all for

457
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: this season or do you think this season is a rap.

458
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really don't have any insight or opinion on

459
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 2: the resumption of play, you know, for this season. Obviously,

460
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,159
Speaker 2: I think everybody would would love to play under the

461
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 2: right circumstances. But you know, this is something that has

462
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 2: basically shut the world down, and certainly right now they

463
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 2: shut the United States down, where you know, first and

464
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 2: foremost we're concerned about the health and safety of our

465
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 2: players and the staff and coaches that have to work

466
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 2: with them on a regular basis, as well as as

467
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 2: fans that would attend games. And you know, our heart

468
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 2: goes out to everybody who's been affected by this, by

469
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 2: this terrible virus and if either lost loved ones or

470
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 2: suffered greatly. So that's you know, that's what's more important

471
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 2: right now than basketball. You know, at some point, at someday,

472
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 2: hopefully in the not too distant future, things will start

473
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 2: to get back to the way things were before COVID nineteen,

474
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 2: and you know, we'll be ready to start the league

475
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 2: up and resume when everybody feels that that's the right time.

476
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 2: But right now, you know, we're just we're just watching it.

477
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 2: You know, what our government officials and health experts are

478
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 2: recommending and we'll see how it goes as states try

479
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 2: to reopen their business economies over the next few weeks.

480
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 4: Curse a couple of quick questions before you go. Having

481
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 4: been around Michael for so long and been through so

482
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 4: many facets of his life here in this latest facet

483
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 4: with as you owner of the Charlotte Hornets, Charlotte obviously

484
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 4: hasn't attained as much basketball prestige, hasn't won a lot

485
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 4: in the postseason as I'm sure MJ wants. So tough

486
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 4: has that been on Michael the competitor?

487
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very, very tough. You know. It's it's it's

488
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 2: been tough ever since, ever since he retired and he's

489
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 2: gotten involved in management and ownership. You know, it's tough

490
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 2: because before he could go out there and set an

491
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 2: example by his work ethic and his ferocity as we

492
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 2: see three documentary and practices and whatnot and uh and

493
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 2: then obviously during the games, you know, could try to

494
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 2: put the team on his shoulders and carry them to success.

495
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,199
Speaker 2: And I think it's it's very frustrating for him to

496
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 2: not be able to impact it that way.

497
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 4: And last question for you, Curtis, before the last dance began,

498
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 4: I initially thought there would be a sort of a

499
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 4: definitive Michael Jordan dock aside from the Last Dance. But

500
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 4: the more and more I see, you know, everything that

501
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 4: we're going through, or that we're seeing in the Last Dance,

502
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 4: and everything you're you're telling that we're going to see

503
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 4: in episodes five through ten, it's almost like we're getting

504
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 4: the definitive MJ Dock. I'm sure you're going through this

505
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 4: right now, and you just you just want to watch

506
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 4: this as it progresses. But I just have to ask,

507
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 4: on the horizon, do you see another Michael Jordan documentary

508
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:19,719
Speaker 4: or is this it?

509
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 2: That's I mean, that's up to Michael. Obviously he still

510
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 2: got a lot of life left in them. And you know,

511
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 2: this documentary really will just cover the ninety seven ninety

512
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 2: eight season. You know, we don't really expand upon life

513
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 2: after that. I think that you know that that was

514
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 2: one of the tough parts in doing the longer form

515
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 2: documentary and trying to do all the stories. We do

516
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 2: go down the rabbit hole and explore some of these

517
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 2: things that you might feel are very Michael Jordan centric,

518
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 2: but they're important to do because they had such an

519
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 2: impact on the Bulls as a team. You know, Agains

520
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 2: is using an example in the episode coming up. You know,

521
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 2: when Michael makes the trip on a day off to

522
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 2: Atlantic City and there's so much criticism and all of

523
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 2: a sudden, you know, Krouse comments on it, as you'll see,

524
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 2: and then his teammates and Phil Jackson have to be

525
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 2: supportive and they have to come back because they're down

526
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 2: to nothing after the two games that are played in

527
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 2: New York. So you have to tell the story for

528
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 2: the viewers to understand, Wow, this wasn't just about Michael Jordan.

529
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 2: Look at how it impacted the team, the response that

530
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 2: the management of the team made rather than to be supportive.

531
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 2: And again one of the things that we didn't talk

532
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 2: about today. This is a time before social media. This

533
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 2: is a time where you know, although there was news

534
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 2: twenty four hours, it wasn't like anything like it was

535
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 2: like it is today. So these things would have been

536
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: just debated and debated and debated NonStop back then. Now

537
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 2: you're getting to see it a little more. Let's use

538
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 2: the phrase social distance, because there's been such a distancing,

539
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 2: you know, from nineteen ninety two. You're getting to see

540
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 2: it and you're getting the current day view of it

541
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 2: from some of the participants, not that they're changing the story,

542
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 2: but now they're able to reflect on it, you know,

543
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 2: twenty or thirty years later, and I think it's really

544
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: really interesting, and I hope that the viewers can really

545
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 2: understand that Juxta's position of the juxtapositioning of that and say, wow.

546
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 2: You know, it's not like we can go back and

547
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:34,959
Speaker 2: read the tweets from back then. I mean, you can

548
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 2: read some of the news reports, but it's not like

549
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 2: Michael Jordan. You know, there's a lot of current day

550
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 2: players are tweeting all day law where they're off their

551
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 2: Snapchat or whatever, and they're telling their story and they're

552
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 2: telling you how they felt about the game they played

553
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 2: tonight and whatnot. It's really interesting to see it being

554
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 2: reflected on, you know, twenty five and thirty years later.

555
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: I think we're all feverishly waiting for Michael Jordan's first

556
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: have a tweet or Instagram post. I would break the internet.

557
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: But Curtis, thank you very much for taking some time,

558
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. It means a lot to us.

559
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:07,959
Speaker 1: Good luck with the remaining six episodes. I know we

560
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: all can't wait, and good luck with the Hornets going forward,

561
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: whenever we next have basketball, hopefully it's this season, but

562
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: probably more likely next season, and I hope to see

563
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: the Hornets in the playoffs and competing for a championship soon.

564
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 2: Thanks guys, and I hope you enjoy the rest of

565
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 2: the episodes. I'm sure you will.

566
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: You could stay.

567
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 2: Every day and are you happy every minute? It's been

568
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 2: so long of your honor, wait for.

569
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 3: It's happened already. It's gonna be goody