1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: production of My Heart Rating. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called 6 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: me Ben. We are joined with our guest producer, Mr Max, 7 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: the Transport Chief Williams. Most importantly, you are you. You 8 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't 9 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,599 Speaker 1: want you to know. It is Thursday as you are 10 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: hearing this. If you listen the day it comes out, 11 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: we are going to do one of our favorite things, 12 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: which is here from our fellow listeners. We're going to 13 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: talk about some heavy, heavy stuff. We're going to talk 14 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: about you a p S. We're gonna exp lore, one 15 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: of our favorite hobby horses, the role of hallucinogens and religion, uh, 16 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: and we're also going to go into a story UH 17 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: that we believe is incredibly important. We wanted to put 18 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:19,119 Speaker 1: this put this up front. You've doubtlessly heard the news 19 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: if you work or live in the New York City 20 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 1: metro area. Something quite controversial just happened. So we want 21 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,559 Speaker 1: to be fair with the way we approached this. This 22 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: is an ongoing, fresh baked event. Uh. And we, I 23 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: think as a group, want to give a very special 24 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: thanks to a wonderful letter from Depression Dave in Denver 25 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: and Dave, you gave us the permission to use your 26 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: use your actual name. Uh. But honestly, just love the 27 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: alliteration of depression Dave and Denver so much that it 28 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: felt like we we would be remiss not to admire 29 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: that piece of good writing, you know what I mean. 30 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: So here we go as a little long so will 31 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: stop along the way and chat about some of this. Hey, guys, 32 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: says Depression Dave. It's kiss met that I happened to 33 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 1: listen to your episode on Thought Crimes on the same 34 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: day New York City announced still be involuntarily hospitalizing mentally 35 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: ill people. Record scratch, that's a true story. Uh. And 36 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: Depression Dave goes on and says, ask someone with depression 37 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: and anxiety disorders. I've been watching the rhetoric against mental 38 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: illness pile up over the years. Whenever there's a mass shooting, 39 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: initial reports, after checking that their skin color doesn't fall 40 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: into the terrorist category, leap to speculate on mental illness. 41 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 1: He was deeply disturbed, or he had bouts of or 42 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: suffered from deep depression, he was a loner, etcetera. Eventually 43 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: we get around to talking about gun control, but the 44 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: n r A quickly pivots that to discussion to guns 45 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: don't kill people. Mentally ill people kill people. And when 46 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: we collectively shrug and say there's nothing we can do 47 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 1: about the guns, all that remains is the mental illness. 48 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: With each new tragic event, the stigma against mental illness 49 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: grows in a pause there before we continue, Um, what 50 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: what what do you guys think of that? I do 51 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: think that depression. Dave is pointing to a troubling trend 52 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: that we see pretty often. Yeah, it's when we talked 53 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: about quite a few times in our most recent Strange 54 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: News episode, the idea of you know, weapons, the argument 55 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: that weapons are at tool, it's just about how you 56 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: focus them, and that is a slippery slope kind of argument. 57 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: I was talking about technology in general in that regard. 58 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: But yeah, I agree, Well, Dave. Dave just points out 59 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: the cycle pretty well because it does seem to be 60 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: what we go through every time there is any kind 61 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: of mass shooting, and there are a lot of them. 62 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: It follows that same route. Yeah, and wherever you fall. 63 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: And the the ongoing discourse about firearms in the United 64 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: States in particular, you have to admit the the n 65 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: r A is a little biased. They they exist to 66 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 1: make sure that firearms can still be sold, right, So 67 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: they're logically speaking, it is not a thing on them necessarily. 68 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 1: They're logically speaking, uh, not going to be the first 69 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: group to say, hey, we should make fewer guns. That's 70 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: just not you know, McDonald's is never going to come 71 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: out and say, uh, we're not going to make fries, right, 72 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: It's it's antithetical to their existence. So we know this 73 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: is a situation that affects so many people in this country, 74 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: both struggling with mental conditions and the danger of firearms 75 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: as as depression. Dave continues. He says, back to NYC, 76 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: the police have been given carte blanche to round up 77 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: and incarceraate anyone off the street they suspect of having 78 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: a mental illness. These aren't people who have committed any 79 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: crime or pose an immediate threat. They're just people whose 80 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: medical history or perceived medical history deems them a potential threat. 81 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: Over the past several years, says depression, Dave. I've been 82 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: concerned of the day those of us diagnosed with depression 83 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,239 Speaker 1: will be rounded up and put in camps to protect 84 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: the general population, and now it seems that day is 85 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: quickly drawing closer. No, paranoia is not on my roster 86 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: of disorders. Uh. And Dave goes on to say some 87 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: very very nice things about the show, Thank you so much, Dave, 88 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: and then ends with ends with something that I thought 89 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: was really impressive. Folks. He says, if you want to 90 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: read my ramblings on air, feel free to use my 91 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: first name. I want to normalize mental disorders and a 92 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: large part of that for me is not hiding them 93 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: or hiding myself and talking about them. But if that's 94 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: not your bag of badgers, you can go at Depression 95 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 1: Day in Denver. Thanks Brian, and Brian, it's out of 96 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: respect for your letter that we are using your first 97 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: name again. We stuck with Depression Dave from Denver because 98 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: that's an awesome nickname, Like that's an example for the class. 99 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: But this is also um, this is something that I 100 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: know stood out to all three of us, and know 101 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: it stood out to you, know and and to you 102 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: Matt as well. Uh. And guys, I spent some time 103 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: looking into this and figuring out, you know, different issues, 104 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: even did a little bit of like lazy cocktail math. Uh. 105 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: This announcement was portrayed by the Mayor of New York, 106 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: Eric Adams as a moral necessity. Said that his team 107 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:56,359 Speaker 1: had been visiting and surveying tent camps, home encampments of 108 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: unhoused people in particular, and getting dad to on people 109 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 1: in the streets and the subways, and they believe that 110 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: it is an ethical imperative right to provide care for 111 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: these people. However, you can see why this would be 112 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: so controversial because the because they still need more details 113 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: of the plan, and they're talking about taking people who 114 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: have not committed a crime and forcibly putting them into 115 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: an institution. It's not the same as a prison, but 116 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: it is very much it do not pass, go, do 117 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: not collect two situation. Uh, this I don't know. There 118 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: there are a lot of issues here and the way 119 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: it's being reported. It's part of this eleven point series 120 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: of reforms he's talking about, but I'm just not sure 121 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: which direction we want to go with this one. Like 122 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:02,559 Speaker 1: if you just look at the history of mental health care, 123 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: in the US, A lot of those UH facilities were 124 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: closed down decades ago, in the seventies through the nineties, 125 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: and these people were just sent out on the streets, 126 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: you know. And if if you live in an area 127 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: like we do, where there are a lot of unhoused people, 128 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: then you notice that there are people struggling. There are 129 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: people struggling with um maybe undiagnosed mental conditions, or they're 130 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: not being treated for those conditions, they're being criminalized for 131 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: them instead. I mean, is this is this a way 132 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: to which well, it is a way. Is this a 133 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: good way to address it? Let's talk about the positives, 134 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: because you're you're kind of already hitting on them. Ben, 135 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: there the history of just mistreating anybody that has a 136 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: is dealing with some kind of illness like that, you know, 137 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: generally in the mind, and they are there. They don't 138 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: have the money to pay for private treatment, right they 139 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:06,559 Speaker 1: don't have the ability to pay for treatment on their own. Um, 140 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: this is a way to provide at least temporary treatment 141 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: for people. The way it's being described to me in 142 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: these articles that you've shared been and in what Brian 143 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: sent to us, it definitely doesn't seem like a positive move, 144 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: But I think there is a there is maybe a 145 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: good intention at the heart of it, where it is, 146 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: let's get let's force the city to get help for 147 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: everybody that might need it. It just seems like, like, 148 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: how would you do that without Without this method of 149 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: having the police pick people up, you'd have a voluntary 150 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: place where people could go and receive treatment for a 151 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: few days or something. Is this essentially just kind of 152 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: a blunt instrument approach to reducing homelessness, like, you know, 153 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: as as a kind of like you know problem in 154 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: terms of like the crime and the in the you know, 155 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: the optics of it, you know, which I think, yes, 156 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 1: it does to me as well. Yeah, No matter how 157 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: much you know, how much work a campaign or an 158 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: administration puts into framing it as a moral imperative, there 159 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: are a lot of dangerous questions. Another question, can the 160 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: existing institutions and care facilities handle it? You know, the 161 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: pandemic hit those things like a hurricane, right, uh, and 162 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: there are you have to think about the perspective of 163 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: the professionals who are already working there, and probably I 164 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: am certain have tons of great and very specific evidence 165 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: based advice for you know, a revolving door of politicians. Uh, 166 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: and likely feel ignored. You know, I have like you 167 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: can see horror stories of people who have been institutionalized 168 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: against their will, uh, and horror stories of people who 169 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: have worked in those institutions. None of these people necessarily 170 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: being criminals. It's just very important parts of the system 171 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: are broken. So according to great New York Times article 172 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: about this, which depression David Denver also linked to us too, 173 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: there were an estimated three thousand, four hundred, uh how 174 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: unhoused people in New York City that were mentally ill? Right, Uh, 175 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: And that seems for many people, that seems kind of tiny, 176 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: right in terms of like relative to the size of 177 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: the city, even though we're talking about thousands of people. 178 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: It seems like it would only work if it was 179 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 1: part of a much larger plan. And you can you 180 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: can absolutely re the the eleven point literature or plan 181 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: from from the administration. But what do you what do 182 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: you guys think about depression Dave's primary concern? Do you 183 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: see this as a step toward um toward a world 184 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:22,959 Speaker 1: where people who are not a danger to themselves might 185 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: be locked up? Yeah, it makes me think of the 186 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: kind of criteria that allows you know, like one flew 187 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: over the cuckoo's nest or something. You know, we're like 188 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: a problematic societal individual who's more of a counterculture type cat, 189 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: gets you know, pegged as a mental health risk and 190 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: then gets lobotomized, you know what I mean. That's obviously, 191 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: you know, very dated, but it's a it's a great film, 192 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: and I think speaks to this kind of stuff, um where, 193 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: once you're in the system in that way, you lose 194 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: a lot of autonomy. For me, Ben, this reads very 195 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: similarly to stuff we're hearing about in the mids, Like 196 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: right around seen I remember hearing about a couple of 197 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 1: major cities doing the bus thing with but own house people. 198 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: So just put them on a bus, get them out 199 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: of our major metropolitan area, send them somewhere else. It 200 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: feels like this this would be a mandated way for 201 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:26,079 Speaker 1: police officers to get an unhoused person into the system 202 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: who could then be just shipped out after a couple 203 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: of days of treatment or something purposefully and sent somewhere else. Yeah. Yeah, 204 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 1: Like during the Olympics, how various cities have bust people 205 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:42,959 Speaker 1: out right for the crime of existing without a permanent home. Uh, 206 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: and then there here's here's some of the math that 207 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: I was looking for his cocktail napkin math. So so 208 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,839 Speaker 1: take it with a grain of salt. On average, some 209 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: calculated thirty of unhoused people may struggle with some sort 210 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 1: of mental illness. So if you took the population projected 211 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: sixty population shows people in New York and you applied 212 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: that thirty statistic, then you would get to the idea 213 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: of eighteen thousand homeless people in New York City struggling 214 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: with some sort of mental condition. Uh. This, this is 215 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: still a lot of people. And you know the mayor 216 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: has already been accused of sweeping folks, sweeping issues under 217 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: the rug right under the guise of some sort of 218 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: um good intention. And this is not to cast this 219 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: version on the intentions. It's just saying good intentions can 220 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: result in terrible things. And you you describe a revolving 221 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: door quite well there, Matt, because even if, like if 222 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: you live in a city where there is a a stationary, 223 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: relatively non migratory population of a housed people, then you'll 224 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: you'll see, like I've I've seen it around where our 225 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: old office was, there a lot of people that we 226 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: all three of us have seen over the years who 227 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: would disappear for a little bit because they maybe had 228 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: an episode of some sort. They got caught up in something, 229 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: so they got detained, They got taken to the local 230 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: hospital like Grady Hospital, or they got put in um 231 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: putting what they call the tank, you know, and they 232 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: were locked up for a few days, they got a hearing, 233 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: and they got put back out on the streets because 234 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: no one wanted the paperwork, no one wanted the problem. 235 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: And is that going to happen again if someone is 236 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: from what I understand, people are being put put in 237 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: these situations, right, They're being detained and then they have 238 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: a hearing of some sort, right, Um, So it's not 239 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: as though as it's not as if they're being just 240 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: thrown in a hole for years and years. But that 241 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: is the concern. And another concern is how are you 242 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: gonna how can you reliably diagnose a mental condition that 243 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: meets the standards that you're proposing, right, Like you're a 244 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: police officer, you know, and and this is not this 245 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: is not even denigrading uh members of law enforcement who 246 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: will find themselves in this situation. You're just probably not 247 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: a mental health expert. Well, even mental health experts. I mean, 248 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: so much of this stuff there are gray areas. It's 249 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: not like a one size fits all. A lot of 250 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: this stuff when it gets you know, sort of codified 251 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: and socialized like this, it's just about ticking boxes, um 252 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: and and that's not always particularly accurate. Like again, like 253 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: I said earlier, it's sort of a blunt instrument approach. 254 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: I was just trying to think, like, what do you like, 255 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: what is an actual solution for any of this? And 256 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes, yeah, sometimes it can go to the 257 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,479 Speaker 1: old witch hunt levels, right where some of the primary 258 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,719 Speaker 1: evidence I guess someone accused of witchcraft was that they 259 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: said they weren't a witch. You know, So there might 260 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: be someone who says, look, I'm not a quote unquote 261 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: I'm not crazy, right, and they say, well, that's exactly 262 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: what someone like you would say, and then off they go. 263 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: I think it's incredibly concerning. We have to keep eyes 264 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: on this because the the US has for a long 265 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: time been woefully unequipped to deal with serious problems with 266 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: health mental health care. Right, whether you're talking veterans, whether 267 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: you're talking people pushed to the brink during a pandemic, 268 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: whether you're talking about all the people who found themselves 269 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 1: with no safe place to go when the institutions were 270 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: closed down in the seventies and the nineties. Uh. And 271 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 1: I believe this is an episode for the future, but 272 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: we're reading to do we need eyes on this. We 273 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 1: want your help, folks, so let us know your perspective 274 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: to the to the same problem Matt was just talking about, 275 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: how does one go about fixing it? What are the 276 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,439 Speaker 1: appropriate steps? Want to hear from medical health professionals. We 277 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 1: want to hear from people who are have struggled in 278 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: the past or currently with similar issues. Uh. And you 279 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: know we'll do our best to maintain anonymity and only 280 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,959 Speaker 1: right to us if you feel comfortable communicating with your 281 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: fellow listeners in that regard. Uh. In the meantime, we're 282 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: gonna pause for a word from our sponsor. We'll be 283 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 1: back with more messages from you. Stay safe everyone, And 284 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: we have returned with another message from you, this one 285 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 1: coming from Brooklyn from our friend I'm just gonna call 286 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: them V Hello, Ben Nolan. Matt a longtime listener and 287 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: fan of your std w y t K also a 288 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: big fan of exploring origins of religion and how hallucinogens 289 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: may or may not have played a role. I find 290 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: it all incredibly fascinating. I have heard of this theory 291 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: before your show, and thanks to your podcast, I first 292 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 1: learned of the bicameral mind and the theory behind the 293 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: origins of consciousness. How intriguing it is to think that 294 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 1: ancient human beings thought their inner voices were gods or 295 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: such that were directing them to do things. What does 296 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 1: that say about humans and our minds? Very very interesting stuff. 297 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: I recently watched this Hulu show called Catherine the Great, 298 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: and while it was highly fictionalized, I have no doubt 299 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: they infused historical facts in the overarching storyline. And that 300 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,679 Speaker 1: is the case. Catherine the Great was, i believe, written 301 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 1: by the same person that wrote the movie Um oh Gosh, 302 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 1: The Favorite, which was directed by your ghost Lanthamos, which 303 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: is a fabulous film about like sort of a fictionalized 304 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: relationship between a queen and like sort of her handmaiden, 305 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: and it's just it gets bonkers. If you haven't seen it, 306 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: it's really really bizarre and psychedelic and weird and and 307 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: touching and insane. And one scene in Katherine the Great 308 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: showed their priest taking mushrooms to quote speak to God, 309 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: and when Catherine joined them, she claimed she didn't hear God, 310 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 1: but she felt love and understood the meaning of everything 311 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 1: as it was. It's so crazy to think that these 312 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: men in power in religion, those that sought to control 313 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: the masses, etcetera, could have been high on hallucinogens and 314 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: thought they were obeying orders from a higher being. To 315 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: think that we could have understood just how connected we 316 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 1: are to the earth if only we understood our own 317 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 1: minds better. Um, hope you enjoyed my thought. Vomit here, 318 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: Love you guys, Love the show can have the good work. 319 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: Love from Brooklyn v um. So this is interesting on 320 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: a lot of levels. But uh, Matt, you and I 321 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: recently spoke about the the show UM or the the 322 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 1: anthology series UM Good yea Motel Toro's Cabinet of Curiosity, 323 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: and you happen to watch the one episode that kind 324 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: of sucked. It was an adaptation of the um HP 325 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: Love Crab story. UM what is it? Dreams in the 326 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: Witch House? Kind of a bad episode, Like I really 327 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: like the series in general. That was on a very 328 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: good episode, I had this weird talking rat like there's 329 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: things about it that we're just really just unforgivably bad. 330 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: But it has a thing where this character is trying 331 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: to reach his sister who's like in this other dimension 332 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 1: or his dead or something. Again, it was so bad 333 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 1: I barely paid attention. But in order to do that, 334 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: he's given this sleucinogenic substance um and it's through the 335 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 1: you know this like he goes to the special kind 336 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: of like uh like place, this like club kind of 337 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: where the people they're like sort of like say holy 338 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: men are kind of shaman type figures. And the stuff 339 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: that he's given is clearly very closely guarded stuff, right, 340 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: And these these substances in the past were just as 341 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: V described, very closely guarded and not just for everybody, 342 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: because he can't just give it to the clubs on 343 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: the street. We we'd have a uprising on our hands, 344 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So, like it was this 345 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: stuff that was reserved for these like you know, conduits 346 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: to God um and and this is it's often the 347 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: case you know, in in in in uh Native American 348 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: tradition and South American tradition, you always you know, on 349 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 1: like vision quests and such, you know, or like the 350 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,880 Speaker 1: sweat lodge kind of situations. You had to be supervised, 351 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 1: you know, by a shaman or somebody that had expertise 352 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: in in this uh, in this realm because it was 353 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: looked at as as participating in another realm of consciousness, um, 354 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: you know. And and now um, unfortunately oftentimes it has 355 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: gotten I believe the incorrect reputation is being like this 356 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,959 Speaker 1: party drug or something like that. But it's it's a 357 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: history goes back just generations, you know, like hundreds and 358 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: hundreds of years, um. And it was often utilized by 359 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: priests and and these types of you know, holy figures. Um. 360 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: So I think that's a really interesting way of looking 361 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,919 Speaker 1: at it, and how how many of these folks that 362 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: were taking it did feel like this was their kind 363 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 1: of key to the kingdom. Matt, I see you kind 364 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 1: of twitching over there. I know this is something that 365 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: that fascinates you as well. Yeah, it's it certainly feels 366 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: as though to me personally, without looking at all of 367 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 1: the science and history, that hallucinogenic substances of some sort 368 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 1: unlocked something in the human brain as it was developing. 369 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: That's just that's literally my opinion. That's what it feels 370 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,959 Speaker 1: like to me, but also the gatekeeper aspect of it, 371 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: though I'm wondering what you think about that of like, 372 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: you know, you you can only take only certain people 373 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: can take this stuff, you know, or you have to 374 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: take it under the supervision of like you know, someone 375 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 1: who is you know, superior to you in terms of 376 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: like a priest. It's sort of like, you know, doing confession. 377 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: You can only do it to a priest because that 378 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: is your conduit to God. So the idea, um, I 379 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 1: think you're nailing something here. Uh, that's incredibly important, you know, 380 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: both you and v. The idea of gate keeping without 381 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: the bad connotation the gate keeping has these days, was 382 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: pretty necessary because in many cases there have to be 383 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 1: um special preparations, right, Like these are not necessarily recreational activities. 384 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: And like Matt, I am convinced that. I am convinced 385 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 1: that hallucinogens have played a huge role in the ancient past, 386 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 1: and people forget, you know, it's so easy to look 387 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: around and see what's considered verboten or bad in the 388 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: modern age and not realized that this was very much 389 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: not the case in the past. Yeah, and that and 390 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: to me that that's sort of the the crux of 391 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: these email the idea of sort of like keeping people 392 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 1: apart from spirituality in some ways, like I'm always fascinated 393 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: just without the psychedelic aspect of it at all, just 394 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: how so. And religions don't allow people to speak directly 395 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: to God, you know, you have to talk to a priest, 396 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: or you have to go through a shaman, or you 397 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: have to have some sort of conduit um. And that 398 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 1: to me is a is a mode of control, you know, 399 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: of keeping people under a thumb of some sort. Yeah, 400 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,439 Speaker 1: if you can, if you can prevent someone from having 401 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 1: whatever that religious experiences, you know, especially early on, then yeah, 402 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 1: you could maintain control probably if that religious experience unlocked 403 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: a real truth right to existence, to life, to God, 404 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,199 Speaker 1: to something like that, Because then it becomes this whole like, 405 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: well what do I need you for? You know? Yeah, 406 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: I've got all the I've got all the equipment. You know, 407 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: I've got the same brain as you. Um, I I 408 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:48,360 Speaker 1: can do all this stuff, you know, on my own. 409 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 1: And that's a big part of what Protestantism was about, too, 410 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,199 Speaker 1: is is like what do I need this priest for? 411 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: And all of these rituals, like God should be a 412 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: personal connection, you know, between an individual and whatever that 413 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: thing is. You know, again, I'm not talking about God 414 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: as in the Christian God person. I mean, obviously in 415 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: Protestantism versus Catholicism, that's what we're talking about. But in general, 416 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: that connection to whatever that power or energy or earth 417 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 1: or whatever nature is is very intimately personal. Yeah, the 418 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: concept of intercession, right, and religion as a control mechanism, 419 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: which very much in many cases it is the idea. 420 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: I've said it before years ago. So like the primary 421 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 1: evolution of humans socially, as you start with the family 422 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: that's the first group unit, then it goes to the 423 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: tribe that's the second group unit, then it goes to 424 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: the religion. These people are not related to me, but 425 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: we all are under the same ideological um mindset, I 426 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 1: don't want to say under. It's not like they're being hypnotized, 427 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: but we all believe the same thing. And then the 428 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: state gets bigger, and now we're at the verge of 429 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: the state going to the corporation. You know, the same 430 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: same evolution, but the um. I think you're making a 431 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: great point about the idea of of gate keeping, and 432 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: sometimes it was with that bad connotation unnecessary evil, right 433 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 1: to prevent people from in fighting, and then those in power. Right, 434 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: the popes were above kings for so much of so 435 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: much of European history. Right, you could you could be king, 436 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 1: but you still have to be nice to the pope, right, 437 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: or else there's a war. So it's like history again, 438 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 1: is much closer than it looks. And in the rear 439 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: view mirror, I wonder, you know, it makes me think 440 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: of the the idea that what they used to call 441 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,959 Speaker 1: it the mushroom. Christ, I don't know about this, No, please, 442 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 1: I I do know what you're talking about. How would 443 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: how would you describe it? Man? Oh? Well, maybe I'm wrong. 444 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: I thought this was the concept that Jesus Christ has 445 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: written about in the Bible, was not in fact a 446 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 1: human being that went around and did all this these things. 447 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: It is that it was a mushroom. Yeah, it's like 448 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: an allegory of a human being, but when in fact 449 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: it's it's the psilocybin itself, an episode I thought we 450 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: talked about. I mean, it's we do a lot of these, 451 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: and this is I would I would have I would 452 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,679 Speaker 1: have glombed onto that. I mean, that's super fascinating, So 453 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: please no, go on, tell me more. It's this guy 454 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: John m Allegro, and back in the seventies, in this 455 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: book called The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, he argued 456 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 1: that it was that the ultimate roots of Christianity and 457 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: a bunch of other religions. By the way, it's not 458 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: just talking about Christianity comes from fertility cults that are 459 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: based on the same um interaction with psychoactive substances. He 460 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: took a step further than a lot of other people 461 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:56,719 Speaker 1: and said Jesus Christ never existed as an historical figure, 462 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: but was this kind of code for lack of a 463 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: better word, for mushrooms. And just to be clear, spoiler, 464 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: a lot of scholars do not agree with him, and 465 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: a lot of people were offended. I'm sure that's what 466 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: what many would call sacrilege. Um, but that is fascinating. Wow. Okay, 467 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: I need to dig more into this concept, um. But 468 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: thank you v for this, uh, this impetus for this 469 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: bit of discussion. Um. It's it's always you know, welcome 470 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: for sure. So we're gonna take a quick break here, 471 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor, and then return and have 472 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: one more piece of listener mail. All right, we are back, 473 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: and we are jumping to correspondence we received from someone 474 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: we're going to call Michigan Lights. That is not the 475 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: person's name. We're going to call you that just for anonymity, 476 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: just in case. Thank you very much for writing in 477 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: with this story. By the way, this is one of 478 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 1: these personal first person tales of an encounter with lights 479 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 1: in the sky. And if you're listening to this, hopefully 480 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: you realize at least by now that these are some 481 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: of our favorite kinds of stories, because it just sparks 482 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: that deep curiosity in all three of us about what 483 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: could be going on, What did someone actually see? What 484 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: are all the possibilities and let's think about them. So 485 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: we're gonna jump right in to this story, Michigan Lights Rights. Okay, 486 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: so my sister introduced me to your show. We both 487 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: find the type of stuff you discuss so interesting. But 488 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: she's more open to conspiracies and crazy concepts, while I'm 489 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: typically more skeptical and rely on logic and facts. So 490 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:49,719 Speaker 1: this experience is so crazy and unreal to me. I 491 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 1: feel like a lunatic even reaching out lunatic. Remember we 492 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: just talked about that back in but I just can't 493 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: comprehend or explain what I nest. It was dark outside 494 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: already on November twenty two and around six twenty in Fenton, Michigan, 495 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: my sister and I were driving home from work together, 496 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: which is routine and has been for a while along 497 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: this route. I was driving and we were on the highway, 498 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: so I didn't see it at first, but my sister 499 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: pointed out a weird light thing. I looked and it 500 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: was these super bright red lights just off to the 501 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: side of the highway. It was in a grid positioned 502 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: horizontally to the Earth's surface, and it was a little 503 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: above the tree line, pretty high in the air. It 504 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: had this weird beam from it and the ground with 505 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: two parallel lines with a bunch of dashes moving upward 506 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: towards the object. Okay, jumping out of the email for 507 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 1: a second, what like that? In my mind, I see 508 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: a carnival ride. I don't know about you guys, but 509 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: I see like a huge maybe six flags ride or 510 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: something that has you know, the ones that are kind 511 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: of circular and they're high up in the sky and 512 00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: they've got line running down from the out side of 513 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: the circle, and there's like seats on on the kind 514 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: of like the gravitroum, but the ones that have like 515 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: the crazy swings, the crazy swings, that's guta get it, 516 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: That's what I say in the scary hide spooky swings. Yeah, 517 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: but illuminated at night, and so you don't really see 518 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: all the stuff. You just see the lights that are 519 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: moving up and all this stuff, which immediately that's where 520 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: my head goes to. But Michigan Lights is saying, this 521 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: is a route that they usually go on. They've never 522 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: seen this thing before. It really stood out and it 523 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: looked very different. I don't know any other thoughts here, 524 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: you guys, before we move on. No, I see what 525 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 1: you're saying that in terms of the dashes heading towards 526 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: the object, like that might be you know, not not yeah, 527 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: not dismissing what this is, but I can see that 528 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: as being a woire connecting another thing that then is 529 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: is being pulled, you know, gravitationally, and they're moving in tandem. Yeah. 530 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: And it's getting towards the end of November there too, 531 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: so uh, this would be the time that people begin 532 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: constructing things, right like holiday markets and so on. So 533 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: we're aware of that. But then there's something about you know, 534 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: like you point out the familiarity, I think we need 535 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: to learn about the size of it. Oh yeah, definitely, definitely. 536 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: And the grid was a little weird too, stating that 537 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: it was a grid positioned horizontally to the Earth's surface. 538 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: That's strange to me. All right, let's keep that in 539 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: mind as we continue back in. It was huge, with 540 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: fifty to a hundred individual light sources perfectly spaced in 541 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: a flat grid. At first, when I first saw it, 542 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: I said it must be one of those power structures 543 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: with all those metal beams with that you know that 544 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 1: everyone knows. My sister thought they were lights maybe recently 545 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: put up for a Christmas on a building. There. You go, Ben, 546 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: But we drive this route every day on the way 547 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: to and back for work, but there's never been a 548 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: structure there. So then it got scary weird. I looked 549 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: away at it by signed a register where we were 550 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: so we could look when it was light outside and 551 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: see if something was there. My sister said something about 552 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: the thing in the sky, so I looked again. When 553 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: I looked back, the lights were changing colors, flashing all 554 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 1: colors of the rainbow super quickly and moving into a 555 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:20,720 Speaker 1: saucer like shape. They then started floating up. My sister 556 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: and I were flipping, like, what the hell is this. 557 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 1: I was driving and I almost hit a car because 558 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 1: I was staring at this thing in the sky directly 559 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: beside us. I swerved and then I looked back through 560 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: my mirror and the lights were still going up, and 561 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,360 Speaker 1: then the lights started to turn off, one at a time, 562 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: and then the entire thing disappeared into the sky. The 563 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: whole thing shook me to the core. Usually if someone 564 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,720 Speaker 1: told me a story like this, I'd say, you probably 565 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: didn't see it right, or there's some way to explain that. 566 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 1: Usually we were doing that exactly right. This is what 567 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: I mean, that's what we try and do. Uh really, 568 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: going back in I'd usually secret laugh at someone with 569 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: these claims. But I saw it clear as day, and 570 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,320 Speaker 1: so did my sister. A big, weird light structure with 571 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: no physical body that's visible. It had some kind of 572 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,279 Speaker 1: beam coming from the ground and only appeared to be light, 573 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,280 Speaker 1: but absolutely moved like it was one unit from the surface, 574 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,760 Speaker 1: and then it changed colors and flew away and disappeared completely. 575 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 1: I wish I could make this up. I'd just be 576 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: going crazy, but I can't deny what I saw. I 577 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: wasn't alone, and my sister and I saw the exact 578 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 1: same thing. It was a building sized something hovering over 579 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: the surface of Earth that was then able to take 580 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: off and lift effortlessly into the sky. I don't know, 581 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: but I just can't imagine a man made aircraft capable 582 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 1: of what we saw. And this next part goes to 583 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: one of my big questions here for your Michigan lights. 584 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,760 Speaker 1: Uh did you go back to the area during the daytime, 585 00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 1: especially because you're familiar with it? Right? Uh? So you continue. 586 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 1: I looked it up. Then when I got home and 587 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,320 Speaker 1: tried to find an explanation or anything similar reported before. 588 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 1: I couldn't get any useful results except for one Reddit 589 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: thread similar enough that I'll attach a screenshot from what 590 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 1: they saw. But what they saw was higher than what 591 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 1: we saw. I've always believed that there was alien life 592 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 1: out there, but I never thought we were close to 593 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: interacting with it. But now I wonder. Long story, but 594 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: I hope you stay with me because I'm begging you guys, 595 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: for the sake of my peace of mind, to look 596 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 1: into this and give me a logical explanation, because my 597 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,360 Speaker 1: sister and I are in our pants, thinking everything we 598 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: thought we knew about our reality is subject to change 599 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,919 Speaker 1: time for some mushrooms. She didn't write that. She didn't 600 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 1: write that, we're just building a theme. How far is 601 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 1: it from Michigan to Colorado? Well, this is I mean, 602 00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: this is something in right. This is something that makes 603 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 1: us think though, because if it is right by a 604 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: highway or somewhere you can observe it while driving, then 605 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 1: unless it's an abandoned road, other people would have seen it. 606 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,760 Speaker 1: So I'd love right now to jump to whatever image 607 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 1: that Michigan Light sent us. But for some reason it 608 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,320 Speaker 1: didn't go through our email system. So we we literally 609 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,720 Speaker 1: have a little box that says image one dot PNG, 610 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 1: which isn't great. Sometimes the security is a little too 611 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: high over here in the servers. But we'd love to 612 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 1: know what else you have. If anyone else out there 613 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: listening saw something similar to this in Michigan on November 614 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,320 Speaker 1: twenty two, or you know, maybe the day before, the 615 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 1: week before, the week after, or something like that, some 616 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: kind of construction, some kind of event that was occurring 617 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: in Michigan around that time, so close to Fenton, Michigan. 618 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,280 Speaker 1: That's really just a call out to anyone listening, please 619 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 1: seriously help us out because we haven't been able to 620 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 1: find anything specific, and you can do that easily by 621 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 1: reaching out online where we are conspiracy stuff on Facebook, 622 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 1: YouTube and Twitter, conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram. Yes, and 623 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,439 Speaker 1: we have a phone number if you want to call, 624 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,840 Speaker 1: it is one eight three three st d w y 625 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,399 Speaker 1: t K. You've got three minutes. Give yourself a cool 626 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: nickname and let us know if we can use your 627 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 1: name and message on the air. And if you don't 628 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,440 Speaker 1: like phones, that's totally fine, We get it. Why not 629 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,959 Speaker 1: send us a good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy 630 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 1: at i heart radio dot com. Stuff they don't want 631 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 1: you to know is a production of I heart Radio. 632 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i 633 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 634 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:04,320 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.