1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: Bodydas with Joseph's gotten more. Nowadays, I spend a lot 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: of time going for walks with my wife. I do 3 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: it for the exercise. I don't run anymore, and I 4 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: do miss that. I miss that a trendline rush that 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: you would get. You just feel so good after you run, 6 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: But back of my knees, I just can't do it anymore. 7 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: But I do enjoy walking. I do it for leisure 8 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: and for exercise. But can you imagine you're sixty four 9 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: years old and you're walking to work every day now? 10 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: I guess you could say it's a choice. Maybe you 11 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 1: do have a car, Maybe you just want to take 12 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:53,279 Speaker 1: in fresh air. Who knows. But the subject of our 13 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: episode today did walk to work on a daily basis. 14 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: And you don't think that anything is necessarily going to 15 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: happen to you en route to work. But the story 16 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you today involves a lady that 17 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: was not just simply found dead along the side of 18 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: the road where she strolled to work every day, but 19 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: hidden away inside of a culvert. And here's the thing. 20 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: This didn't just happen a couple of weeks ago. This 21 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: happened forty years ago, and it is just now that 22 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: this case has finally been solved. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, 23 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: and this is bodybags. I think back to that time, Dave, 24 00:01:53,080 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two, and that's when, you know, people would 25 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: still dress up many times first off to go to work. 26 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: They didn't show up in their pajamas. They look put together. 27 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: And the generation that we're talking about, sixty two year 28 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: old lady and she's working a mall, I'm sure that 29 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: she put on her finery every day what she would 30 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: refer to probably as her business clothing, and would go 31 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: to work. She wanted to look presentable, probably had her 32 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: hair fixed, her makeup fixed, had her jewelry just right, 33 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: not thinking that anything's going to happen to her. But Dave, 34 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: my gosh, after all of this time, loth these many years, 35 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: and her body being found in a culvert, they finally 36 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: have gotten this thing solved. 37 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 2: You know. One of the amazing things about the story 38 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 2: of Belmanesset is that she did walk to work every day, 39 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 2: walk to him and they pointed it out, walked to 40 00:02:55,880 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 2: and from and her coworkers loved her. She was known 41 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 2: at the Permian Mall in Odessa, Texas, and they knew 42 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 2: when to expect her. And when she didn't show up 43 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 2: for work as normal on April nineteenth, her coworkers knew 44 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 2: something was wrong. They didn't waste time. They called police. 45 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 2: She's sixty four, she's usually here by now, and she's not. 46 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: She walks back and forth to work. Help us find her, 47 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 2: and they did. But what they found, and I think 48 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 2: about I think about a woman of that generation in 49 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 2: that time, in her age, there was a pride and 50 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 2: modesty about life. 51 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: Oh boy, yeah, you're not kidding. 52 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 2: And when you mentioned being put together, I'm thinking about 53 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 2: how she would have presented herself. And when I think 54 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 2: of what happened to her, it's so disrespectful of human life. 55 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: She deserved better, Yeah she did. And I you know, 56 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned about relative to the disrespect that's shown. 57 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: I think that probably next to a garbage bend being 58 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: placed in a culvert, where runoff goes, sewage goes, all 59 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 1: these sorts of things that in and of itself gives 60 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: you an idea as to whoever perpetrated this crime had 61 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 1: no value for her as a person, right, none whatsoever, 62 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: because he did this to her, And it's so markedly disrespectful. 63 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: I know that many times on Bodybags we've talked to her. 64 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: I have mentioned the idea of memorializing the dead. And 65 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: you can tell a lot about the perpetrator's worldview by 66 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: how they treat the dead afterwards. You know, did they 67 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: put them in a state of repose in the bed, 68 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: did they cover them where their faces covered, you know, 69 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: we hear about face covering all those sorts of things, 70 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 1: or did they just toss them away like garbage? And 71 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: in this particular case, you're you're getting down to that 72 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: level where you know, you have Velma, this lady that 73 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: has lived a full life up to this point, and 74 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: he discards her like she's rubbish. Dave. 75 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 2: You know, it just kind of hit me. At the 76 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 2: age of sixty four in nineteen eighty two, that was 77 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 2: an age of retirement. You know, we didn't work like 78 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 2: we do now, where you know, mid sixties was a 79 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 2: you're you're a senior, your days are numbered. You know, 80 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 2: we didn't used to live like this. Now. Now, somebody 81 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 2: dies a sixty four and you're like, what happened? 82 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: Wow? Boy? They're young? Yeah, And so you think, yeah, 83 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: you think about that, and you know it and it's 84 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: a It is truly a different world. And also we 85 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: have to keep in mind. I think that it's fascinating 86 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: that she was still working because you know, back then 87 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: you took retirement. Maybe it's SSI or whatever it is. 88 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 1: I mean, granted, people have always worked beyond. Maybe she 89 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 1: did this as a hobby. Maybe she did it because 90 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: she liked to connect with people. And my gosh, as 91 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: you well remember in the eighties, particularly eighty two, the 92 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: mall is where you go to connect. It wasn't just 93 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: for young people. You had all kinds of people that 94 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: would be walking through that mall over that period of 95 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: time that you would interact with. And if she's single, 96 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 1: she's living at home, it can be kind of a 97 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: lonely existence. But if you're stimulated, you know, you keep 98 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: your brain stimulated by going to work every day. More 99 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: power to of the man. 100 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,679 Speaker 2: And not just stimulated, but walking to work, physically walking 101 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 2: to work, you know, right back and planning on that. 102 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 2: That's not something people would do today, and not just 103 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 2: because it's dangerous because we're lazy. You know, I wouldn't 104 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 2: do it. I mean really, I wouldn't walk through the 105 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 2: dictum art at the bottom of the hill if that 106 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 2: was my job, you know, that's right, right, Yeah, yeah, 107 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 2: I know. And that's the world that we live in 108 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 2: at this point in time, and this is a different 109 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 2: time and place, and I think that that's really important 110 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 2: in the investigation of Velma's homicide because the way things 111 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 2: were done back during that period of time, and certainly 112 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 2: the tools that were available to those investigators and scientists 113 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 2: back then are not the same as they are today. 114 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 2: And you know, people always say that things were much simpler, 115 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 2: you know, back in the old days. Let me tell you, 116 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 2: life was complicated back to just like it is now. 117 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 2: It's not that, you know, our lives are any more difficult. 118 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 2: We just layered more crap upon it. And I was 119 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 2: still it's all relative. Life was difficult for them back 120 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: during that time. I remember nineteen eighty two. My life 121 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 2: was difficult during that period of time. I was going 122 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 2: to college. I thought that it was, you know, horrible 123 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 2: and overwhelm me. And I didn't want to study. I 124 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 2: didn't want to do all those things that I was 125 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 2: tasked with doing. But she had to do it right. 126 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 2: But Joe, where would you start with an investigation when 127 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 2: you have a sixty four year old woman who is 128 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 2: in physically good enough shape to walk back and forth 129 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 2: to work at the mall. She has friends that immediately 130 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 2: call police when she doesn't show up on time, and 131 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 2: they're able to locate her body, which you know, we're 132 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 2: doing body bags, and you already know the end that 133 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 2: she was murdered. But where they found her her body, 134 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 2: Velma was found partially nude. She had been sexually assaulted 135 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 2: and murdered, and her body was found in a drainage culvert. 136 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, what does that? Yeah? And one more than she's 137 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: been stabbed to death, and that's that's something that is 138 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: very intimate, and it goes along. You just mentioned she 139 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: was sexually assault right, those two things go hand in 140 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: hand as far as I'm concern because it's you know, 141 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 1: I use the term intimacy a lot when it comes 142 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: to homside. Being shot from a distance is not intimate. 143 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: Being stabbed or choked. That's very very intimate stuff that 144 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: you're talking about there. And where would you start? You know, 145 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: I'm glad you asked that question because here's here's something 146 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: I've never I don't think i've ever mentioned before on 147 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: body bags. You know, where I would start? I would 148 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: find the shift supervisor and the beat coop that worked 149 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: that particular zone. I'd put my hands on them and 150 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: I'd say, who do you know on the street around here? 151 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: Because you're not talking about You're not talking about somebody 152 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: that is has been buried out in the desert outside 153 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: you know, outside of town, if you know what I mean. 154 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: Now you're talking about somebody that has been literally found 155 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: in a culvert in you know, in Texas and specifically 156 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: in Odessa, Texas, which is out in West Texas. Who 157 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: do you know? If you're talking to And many times 158 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 1: beat officers are some of the best sources of information, Dave. 159 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: If you've got unknown questions, or if you have questions 160 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: that need to be asked and answered, if you get 161 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: that beat cop who daily has contact with everybody in 162 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: that area, people that are wandering up and down the streets. 163 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: You might have somebody that's suffering from mental illness that 164 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: screams at every car that goes by and he's had 165 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: to pull over and talk to them. Maybe you've got 166 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: a domestic beef that's going on with the family you're 167 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: always having to go out there. Maybe there's people that 168 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:41,559 Speaker 1: are losing children in that area. The beat cop literally 169 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: has their finger on the pulse. And for me, there 170 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: is no richer source of information than those individuals who 171 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 1: inhabit that space on a daily basis. And we know 172 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: that police work and shifts. So the people that you 173 00:10:55,840 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: might see during let's say the day watch, all right, 174 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: that might start at six thirty and go until two 175 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:08,199 Speaker 1: thirty every day, the people that inhabit that space are 176 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: going to be completely different than the people that inhabit 177 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: the space from say two thirty the evening shift from 178 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 1: two thirty until ten thirty at night, and certainly a 179 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: lot different than the people that are out at ten 180 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: thirty going to six thirty in the morning. Completely different 181 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: cast of characters that you're dealing with, because most people 182 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 1: that have a job, well, during that early part of 183 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: the day, they're at work. Okay, now, they'll come home 184 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: in the evening. There might be domestic beefs that happen 185 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 1: at that point in time, but they're probably going to 186 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: go to bed. But then you've got those people that 187 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: are up and moving around at night. Well, a why 188 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: do they move around at night? I don't know. Maybe 189 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: they're night owls, who knows. But my point is is 190 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 1: that the beat coop is people use the tip of 191 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: the spear when you talk about military operations. They are 192 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 1: the life's blood of information that flows into any investor 193 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: gation that occurs in a neighborhood. And approximation to a mall. 194 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: And how many times do you think the cop that 195 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: worked this area, maybe at that mall had been called 196 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: there because there were disruptive kids? People are you know, 197 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: people used to complain. You remember this skateboarding on the 198 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: sidewalk back during that period of time, kids racing in 199 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: the parking lot or cutting donuts. You've got those people, 200 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: and then you've got the people that kind of loiter around. 201 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: Maybe they're car thieves, or maybe they assault people in 202 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: the parking lot and try to do stick ups, or 203 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: maybe they go into the store and the shoplift And 204 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: my god, you talk about a target rich area a mall, 205 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: So there's all of these people that inhabit that space. 206 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: Then we begin to think about Velma. My gosh, think 207 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 1: about all of the people that she comes in contact 208 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: with on a daily basis in the mall. She comes 209 00:12:55,720 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: in contact with more people than most politicians, do you know, 210 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 1: and they just happen to cross her path. She doesn't 211 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: know who they are. So that's what the police are 212 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,839 Speaker 1: looking at, just to start with her, and it can 213 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: lead you down some twisted paths because, let me tell 214 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 1: you this, the police knew at that moment, Tom, when 215 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:21,599 Speaker 1: they have this lady who's in her sixties, she was 216 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: supposed to be at work and she didn't show up. 217 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: Not only has she been stabbed sexually assaulted, but she's 218 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 1: been sequestered away in a culvert where someone wanted to 219 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: hide her death. David, I don't know if I've ever 220 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: asked you this question, but I I'm compelled to do 221 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: it at this moment, Tom, based upon the scene that 222 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,439 Speaker 1: this case takes place in. Are you claustrophobic? 223 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 2: I am not. 224 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: I am, and I hate that about myself. I really do, 225 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: and it has been one of the biggest distractions in 226 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: my life. It's something I have to fight against every day. 227 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: I don't you know. I don't like being on elevators 228 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: with people. Oh wow, it just I don't like it. 229 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: I like to get off, on and off as quickly 230 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: as I can. I'm not saying I'm going to run 231 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: over an elderly lady where their shopping backs get off, 232 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: but I'm kind of I'm waiting, you know, I don't 233 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: want to linger. I was not cut out for the 234 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: submarine service. I'll put it to you that way. You know, 235 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: I don't even like being on planes. I don't like 236 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: rebreathing other people's air, you know, and then stuck in 237 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: those filthy seats. I don't care how much they wash 238 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: the covers on them. And I'm not a germophobe, but 239 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: it's just all of that stuff, you know, piles in 240 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: on top. But I got to tell you, working and 241 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: I've had to do this, I've had to go down 242 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: in manholes as well. 243 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 2: That's got to be a real true, are you. 244 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: It's very unnerving to work in a space like this. 245 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: A culvert of all things, is very, very difficult. 246 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 2: When I was living as a young boy, I grew 247 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,119 Speaker 2: up in southern California, but I spent two years in Albuquerque, 248 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 2: New Mexico. And being a boy who grew up where 249 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 2: there's an asphalt jungle, you know, there is no open 250 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 2: space to move to an area where you have the 251 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 2: desert going up to the mountains and to Kirtland. It 252 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 2: was beautiful and by the way, lots of areas to 253 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 2: go exploring. And I was at that age where when 254 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 2: I saw the story about the culverts, and I thought 255 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 2: about the pipes and the cement, and we at that 256 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 2: age would explore, and invariably we would start at a culvert. 257 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 2: We would start at a man made cement runoff and 258 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 2: it would lead you out to the wilderness to an 259 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 2: area where usually would dump into water, a stream, what 260 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 2: have you. And we would we would get candles because 261 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 2: we didn't have any money, you know, little kids. Yeah, 262 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 2: And we would get a candle and light it and 263 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 2: you would let the wax melt onto your hand, you know, 264 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 2: and at first it would burn, but then after you 265 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 2: get past that, it shields it, and so you had 266 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 2: your light, right, And we would go into those culverts 267 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 2: with our little candles, and we were exploring, not thinking 268 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 2: of anything horrid or horrible that could possibly happen. And 269 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 2: when I saw this story, my first thought was, Holy moly, 270 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 2: what if this is the most disgusting thing to do 271 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 2: to a person. 272 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, it really is. And you think about, well, why culvert? Well, 273 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: I think that one of the one of my thoughts 274 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: is is that if you're in a culvert, was she 275 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: deposited there after? She was raped and killed or did 276 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: the rape and knifing stabbing take place within the culvert? 277 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: Because if you're going to do this, and arguably she 278 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 1: had to be snatched, so yeah, I know exactly. So 279 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: you have to find a place in order to facilitate this. 280 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,959 Speaker 1: And if if someone is going to be raped, if 281 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: you're going to do that to uh, to this elderly lady, 282 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: you would need an area of privacy, and what better 283 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: area of privacy than a culvert to drag her down 284 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 1: in there and you can just merely leave her behind 285 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: after you've done this. But you know, you think about 286 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: being inside of a giant concrete cylinder and what First off, 287 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: there's there's pros and cons to everything in forensics. Okay, 288 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: your con would be having somebody like me on the 289 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: team that's claustrophobic. 290 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 2: That's one of the biggest I can see you standing 291 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,400 Speaker 2: out by the sunshine your flashlights. 292 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: Going yeah, how can I help you? 293 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 2: Guys? See when I just so from my mind, I 294 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 2: was thinking that I didn't think about where she was snatched, 295 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 2: where she was taken, and what all took place. My 296 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 2: only thought was she was disposed of it. I didn't 297 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 2: think past that but he would have almost had to 298 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 2: been lying in wait here. She comes, snatching her, dragging 299 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 2: her down into the area because she's walking in a 300 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 2: plain view site. There's you know, she's not walking through 301 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 2: that culver to get to work. 302 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is where the term menacing comes up, 303 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: because if if she's stabbed, we know that he has 304 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: an edged weapon with him, So all he has to 305 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 1: do is grab her threaten her with a knife. She's 306 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: going to be compliant more than likely. Wow, and he, 307 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: you know it might be come with me, and he 308 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: drags her down the culvert, and then hell follows after that. 309 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 2: I did not even think of that, Joe. 310 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 1: It's it's horrible stuff, you know. And you know, we 311 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: talk a lot about dismemberment cases on here, and then 312 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,959 Speaker 1: we have this issue of sexual assault like this. For 313 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 1: both of those things, a perpetrator has to have some 314 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: level of privacy in order to facilitate it. Well, you know, 315 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,360 Speaker 1: back to this idea of pros and cons. If you're 316 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: within a culvert in this cylindrical you know environment like 317 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: this concrete culvert, the pro of this is that it 318 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: is it's a pro and a con. It's a very 319 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: tight space. Obviously, Okay, so you're going to have difficulty 320 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 1: working in there. However, because it is such a tight space, 321 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: you have limited locations where an individual can make contact, 322 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: and they're going to be touching multiple surfaces. So let's 323 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: say that it's Odessa, so they don't get a lot 324 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 1: of rain. Brother, So let's say you have a layer 325 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 1: of dirt or dust in there. If he places his 326 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: hands inside of that culvert, you can get an impression 327 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: out of just the dust that's left behind, and it 328 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 1: also goes to activity. She would have been resistant. You 329 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: can see scrapes on the surface of those of the 330 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 1: interior of that culvert, if her shoes are scraping up 331 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: against the side of it. And that's a powerful thing 332 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: to take a photo of, you know, they say many times. 333 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: You know, I've heard people say, why do you guys 334 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: take so many photos at crime scenes? Well, just imagine, 335 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 1: if you will, an individual that's being attacked and they're 336 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: fighting for their life, and they're wearing shoes and they 337 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: begin moving their heel across the surface like this, again, 338 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: very tight area, You're going to leave these kind of 339 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: linear black marks that are behind and I've seen them. 340 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 1: I've seen them on scenes before where people are struggling. 341 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: I've seen them where it transfers from the shoe to 342 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: the surface. I've also seen them where blood has been spilled, 343 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: and you can see the scuff marks in the blood too, 344 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 1: which is equally horrible. But in that tight space, you 345 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,120 Speaker 1: have all of this activity that you can document. That's 346 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: the pro here because it's very limited. It's not like 347 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: you've got somebody running about a house and chasing somebody. 348 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: It's concentrated in that area. So this would in fact 349 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,120 Speaker 1: be an evidence rich environment. The trick is how well 350 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: did you document that? And here's the other thing. You know, 351 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: we were kind of being lighthearted just a moment ago, 352 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: but it's a serious thing about not everybody can fit 353 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:32,360 Speaker 1: into this space. And at crom Scene's what we do 354 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: is we have a marshaling area where we get together 355 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: before we actually enter crim scene and we will say, Okay, 356 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: this is your job, this is this person's job, and 357 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 1: the next is this job. Well, just think about it. 358 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 1: You cannot have a lead detective, a photographer, and maybe 359 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: a crimscene tech in the space at the same time. 360 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 1: It's an impossibility. If you do, you're going to destroy evidence. 361 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: So you're going to try to document that body in place, 362 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 1: and that includes measurements, it includes photography and any kind 363 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: of trace evidence that has to be lifted, including fingerprints 364 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,360 Speaker 1: or things that are left behind in the dust. So 365 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: you've got all of this, all of this dynamic working 366 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: together here. And then there's blood evidence, a tremendous amount 367 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 1: of it, because if she is stabbed, if she was 368 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: killed there, there would be blood deposition all over the place. 369 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: And the other thing is is that whoever did this 370 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: would have blood deposition on them as well. Dave Brother, Dave. 371 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: You know, after Velma's body would have been removed from 372 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: this culvert, she would have gone to the medical exer's office. 373 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: And by the way, little interesting factoid about Texas. They 374 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: don't have corners and they don't have what are traditionally 375 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: known as medical examiners in a sense that we normally 376 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 1: think of them. The Justice of the Peace acts as 377 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: the corner in the state of Texas. Yeah, it's kind 378 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,199 Speaker 1: of an interesting situation. So they can either marry you 379 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 1: or pronounce you dead, I guess, but yeah, the Justice 380 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: of the Peace handles that sort of thing. One of 381 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: the things that came to mind is that image of 382 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: the Judge roy Bean, you know, sitting on his porch 383 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: and he's the Justice of the Peace, and so they 384 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: would have gone to the forensic pathologist that was hired 385 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 1: by the Justice of the Peace to do the examination 386 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: in Odessa at that point in time. And you know, 387 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,040 Speaker 1: one of the things that's glaring because you know, the 388 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: notes actually refer to the fact that Velma and this 389 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: is key was only partially clothed, so that means that 390 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: her clothing has been disrupted. And anytime, particularly when I'm 391 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: working cases involving females or used to work cases involving females, 392 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: if I saw any any undoing of any of the 393 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: vestments that anybody is wearing, you know, whether it's an 394 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 1: unbuckled belt, a missing button, a ripped blouse, an undone 395 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:37,919 Speaker 1: bra an exposed breast, anything. For me, automatically, I'm going 396 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: to hone in on that just and we're not supposed 397 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 1: to use the word assume, but in this case, I'm 398 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: going to assume they have been sexually assaulted because I 399 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: only get one shot at this. So when she would 400 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: have gotten back to the morgue, they would have done 401 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,360 Speaker 1: a standard rape kit on her. Now, remember in eighty two, 402 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: we weren't doing DNA at all. As a matter of fact, 403 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: DNA would not pop on the surface until about eighty four, 404 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: and that was actually in Great Britain with doctor Alec Jefferies, 405 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 1: who was famously credited with solving the pitchfork cases in 406 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: Great Britain. And to that end, that technology had not 407 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: made it there. It was novel at that point in time. 408 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: We knew DNA, but we didn't we didn't fully understand 409 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 1: the utility of it in forensic science, and so we 410 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,679 Speaker 1: were still very if you'll indulge me here, we were 411 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: still very analog back at that point in time. So 412 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 1: when that body, her body, Velmot's body would have rolled 413 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: into the morgue, this is kind of how the exam 414 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 1: would have gone. We would have done fingernail scrapings, fingernail trimmings, 415 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: We would have done hair pluckings. And this is something 416 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: I haven't talked about. I know on body bags that 417 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: you know that we pluck pubt pubicare from a victim. 418 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: And one of the reasons we do in cases of 419 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: sexual assault is that if there're sexual contact by a perpetrator, 420 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: we all know that we shed hair right well, we 421 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: shed pubiccare as well. What will happen. And I'm sorry 422 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: this is so over the top and I know, really 423 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: disgusting to many people, but you have to understand the 424 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: practicality of this. If let's say a woman is being raped, 425 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 1: there will be potentially not just a deposition of semen, okay, 426 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: but you're going to have perhaps you will have pubic 427 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: care that will transfer from the perpetrator onto the pubic 428 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: care of the victim. So you'll do pubic care pluckings, 429 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: and you also do pubic care combings. There's a fine 430 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,360 Speaker 1: tooth comb that comes in a kit and you literally 431 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 1: calmb the pubic care and any loose hairs that come up, 432 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 1: they're placed into a collection envelope and those are submitted 433 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: as well. And yes, so that people understand, there is 434 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: a When you look at the morphology of hair under 435 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 1: a microscope, you can differentiate very well between people care 436 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: and say, for instance, head hair, all right, and in 437 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 1: certain cases you can differentiate between you can say that 438 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: this this hair does not come from this specific person. 439 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 1: It may come from someone else. And now with DNA, 440 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: you know, if you get a root ball, you know 441 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,880 Speaker 1: you're going to be able to do a DNA profile. 442 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 1: If you have the shaft, you can do kind of 443 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 1: the mitochondrial DNA And. 444 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 2: Now that all comes from the lab. But when you're 445 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 2: out on the scene, how do you get the body 446 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 2: in this place where she's partially clothed? Yeah, how do 447 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 2: you get that back to the lab because she's in 448 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 2: dirt and muck and myron whatever else. 449 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: Excellent question. I'm glad you asked me this, and I've 450 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 1: been asked this before. It's something I teach. Did you 451 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: know that when we transport bodies of rape victims, their 452 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: feet are always left elevated higher than their head. And 453 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 1: the reason is is if they're a seminal fluid or 454 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 1: anything else within the cavities of the body, we're not 455 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: going to lose it. It's not gonna roll out, because 456 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: it does roll out. And so you keep the feet elevated, 457 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: and we do this regularly in the medical legal world, 458 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: and you try, you try the best you can to 459 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: keep the feet elevated, even in the morgue, Like when 460 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: you place a body into a cooler and the body 461 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: is going to be there overnight, you'll continue to try 462 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: to keep the legs elevated if you possibly can. You 463 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: won't put them onto a tray. You'll put the body 464 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: in a cool room on the same gurney and you'll 465 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: just change out the gurney, put a fresh gurney in 466 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 1: the van, and then keep them on that gurney with 467 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: the feet elevated, head down. That way, when it comes 468 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: time to do the autopsy, you're going to be able 469 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: to harvest as much material as you possibly can. And 470 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: you know, after you do the hair pluckings and the 471 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: combings and the nail scrapings and the nail clippings, then 472 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: it comes to the kit itself. And if anyone's ever 473 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: noticed at the doctor's office, maybe you've you know, you've 474 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 1: been sitting in your general practitioner's office and they've got 475 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: the swabs long Q tips with wooden handles. Well back 476 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: during this period of time, that's what we used in 477 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: the morgue, and generally you would take like four five 478 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: swabs and insert them into the vaginal opening, rectal opening 479 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: and into the mouth as well, and you let them sit. 480 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: And the reason you let them sit is you're you're 481 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: wanting them to absorb whatever there and if you can 482 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: pull out, we'll actually do a smear in the lab 483 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: almost immediately as soon as one of the swaps comes out, 484 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: will do a smear on on a glass slide set 485 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: that aside save the rest of the of the swaps. 486 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: Will do that for each orifice that the swabs come 487 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: out of, and then hang on to the rest of 488 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: the swaps hoping that they're you know, to retain them. 489 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: And that's all part of the rape kit Dave, you 490 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: know that that thing that we do, that's that's part 491 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: of collecting the evidence. The tragedy though, that I have 492 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: found is that you have you have rape kits that 493 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: are out there that are have been have been utilized 494 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: for those that are still living, those individuals that survive 495 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: sexual assault, and then you have post mortem rape kits. 496 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: And for years and years there has been uh, I 497 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: hate to use word epidemic. That term gets thrown around 498 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: so so cavalier, but there has been a real problem 499 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: in this country with misplacing rape kits and losing them. 500 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: And can you imagine the horror of this If you 501 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: are a victim of sexual assault and you make contact 502 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: with maybe the rape detective that you're working with or 503 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 1: the DA and say what's status on my case? And 504 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: they put you off they put you off. They put 505 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: you off, and then they might say we lost of kid. 506 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: Are the kids no good? So this thing that you've 507 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 1: had to endure, this horrific event, the sexual assault, and 508 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: then the humiliation, the humiliation of being examined by strangers 509 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: like this after you've been traumatized and they can't keep 510 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: up with a kid, or they've inappropriately stored it or 511 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 1: something like that. And that's something that has happened. But 512 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: you know, this case has got kind of a different outcome, 513 00:31:58,480 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: doesn't it. 514 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 2: It's got two different ones because it happened in April nineteenth, 515 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty two. And you know that when we started off, 516 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 2: she was recovered the day she went missing. You know, 517 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 2: she doesn't show up for work. They got right on it. 518 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 2: They found her body right away, and so they did 519 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 2: all of the things that they needed to do to 520 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 2: get a to get a conviction, or to least get 521 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 2: an arrest, and they did. They arrested somebody right away. 522 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 2: He actually confessed he fit the profile for what they 523 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 2: were looking for. Again, they didn't have all of the 524 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 2: DNA testing we have today. They had sufficient testing, I guess, 525 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 2: but they didn't have enough. But he confessed and so 526 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 2: it went to trial even though he confessed, and a trial, 527 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 2: well he had recanted by then, and when it went 528 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 2: to trial, there wasn't enough evidence to convict him, right, 529 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 2: So false conviction are false confession rather, And that caused 530 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 2: a problem because once they've got somebody arrested and charged 531 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 2: and were moving forward with the procecut KSh, he's already admitted. Well, 532 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 2: you're not really looking at anything anymore. I would guess, 533 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 2: you know, you got to focus on getting a conviction 534 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 2: on this guy. Get everything we got, and. 535 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: There's other cases happening by the way, Yeah. 536 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, the world doesn't stop because this happened. 537 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 2: And you know, time we forget that, we forget. I know, 538 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 2: I do. I'm thinking, Joe, how did you not know? 539 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 2: And you're like, well, since this happened, we've had eighteen others, 540 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 2: you know, or however, and anyway, so they get that 541 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 2: guy in court in eighty three he is acquitted. So 542 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 2: they're back at square one, even worse than square one 543 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 2: because they had all their eggs in that basket and 544 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 2: the case went cold. There was now you're you're now 545 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 2: a year and a half removed from the case. You 546 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 2: don't get the conviction. What are you going to do? Well, 547 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,719 Speaker 2: it's sat there for a while and nothing happened until 548 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 2: Texas has a program and it was in twenty it's 549 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 2: the DPS Sexual Assault Kit Initiative. This is where they 550 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 2: use DNA testing and genetic genealogy on old kits that 551 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 2: they have not solved and once a certain amount of 552 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,399 Speaker 2: time passes or what have you, in a case it's cold, 553 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 2: they now have the money, it's federally funded to actually 554 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 2: get these kits tested to try to find resolution. And 555 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 2: that's what happened. This kit fit the profile, they had 556 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,399 Speaker 2: the information. Technically speaking, they had saved it and it 557 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 2: fit where they could actually send it off to be tested. 558 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,839 Speaker 2: We've done shows about this with authrom and using old 559 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 2: materials like this, so you know it happens. The genetic geniality, 560 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 2: We've talked about that a lot. But Joe, what is 561 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,240 Speaker 2: it like to look at a kit that is forty 562 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 2: years old and in this case at the time of 563 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 2: the test it was in twenty twenty that they actually 564 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 2: did the test. To think about it, thirty eight years 565 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 2: since this woman was murdered at the age of sixty four, 566 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 2: it's thirty eight years man. 567 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 1: Well, first off, it's amazing that they still had the 568 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: kit and that it will isn't trashed and done away with, 569 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 1: So tip of the cap uh to them. And not 570 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 1: only did they still have the kit, they stowed this 571 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,359 Speaker 1: kit so that it was still viable because let's face it, 572 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 1: you know, over time the most the most damage is 573 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: done by nature, you know, and what happens relative to 574 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: UH to these very delicate, delicate to samples that you 575 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 1: have and can back up just for a second, I 576 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,479 Speaker 1: want to tell because there's probably some of our friends 577 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: that are listening and saying, well, if you did a 578 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 1: rape kit back then you're not looking for DNA where 579 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: you're looking for you're looking for secretors. And secretors are 580 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 1: that percentage of the population that is well, what it 581 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 1: means is that there are there's a certain percentage of 582 00:35:55,280 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: the population that literally secretes red blood cells into semen 583 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:07,359 Speaker 1: saliva fequal matter, UH sweat. And so if you can 584 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: get a seminal sample from somebody, say like in a 585 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 1: deposition on UH, in a rape kit and they're a secretor, 586 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 1: then you can type their blood and if they you 587 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: know the ABO typing that you did. But de Ross, 588 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: how narrow that band is. And so that's one of 589 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 1: the things you know, because you know, the rarest blood 590 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 1: type is ab pose. 591 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 2: What if you're not a secret. 592 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: Then hard to do, hard to do. All you can 593 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: say is that there was semen here and so and 594 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: we're talking about years and years ago. I'm not talking 595 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: about in the days of the NA. Don't miscing true. 596 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 1: And then they're going to look and I talked about 597 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: the hair for instance, They're going to look and see. 598 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 1: Back then, they would simply assess the hair by morphology. 599 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 1: You know, they'd say, okay, based upon what we're gross 600 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 1: under the under high modification, this is a cat hair 601 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: or a canine hair, or it's a human hair, and 602 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: what type of human hair is it? Well, female hair 603 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,839 Speaker 1: has been dyed and you can actually, which is something 604 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: that's quite striking if you've ever seen somebody that has 605 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 1: dyed blonde hair and the roots are black. When you 606 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 1: see that, when you see that demarcation in there, that 607 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: borderline in there, it's striking, you know, on a microscope 608 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,879 Speaker 1: for instance. But that's really all they had. And now 609 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 1: we're in you know, it's a brave new world now, 610 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: you know, relative to DNA and when they did this 611 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 1: initiative with the rape kits, which to me is one 612 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,359 Speaker 1: of rape kits. Let's see, how can I say this? 613 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,320 Speaker 1: Unutilized or poorly stored rape kits or lost rape kits 614 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 1: and unidentified bodies are two of the biggest tragedies in 615 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: America in forensics, as far as I'm concerned. You'll never 616 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,840 Speaker 1: convince me otherwise. These things that you know are unknown 617 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: and still unknowns to this day. And now we've got 618 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 1: this fantastic tool that we can utilize. So you've got 619 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 1: all the while within within you know the CODAS system 620 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: which stores you know, which is where we store. It's 621 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 1: the combined DNA index system where you have all of 622 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:25,839 Speaker 1: these cases coming in. And if you run somebody through 623 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 1: CODIS and they are manned to say it's an offender 624 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,839 Speaker 1: that's mandated to give you a sample, and you have 625 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 1: unsolved cases there, they can go in and do a comparison. 626 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 1: You know, well, uh, you know Bazuoka Joe has committed 627 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 1: this horrible crime or we suspect that he has. Does 628 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,520 Speaker 1: he pop up on CODIS, Well, we have his DNA. 629 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,840 Speaker 1: We're going to compare it to any of these unsolved cases. 630 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,240 Speaker 1: Because you've got two you've got two categories in CODIS. 631 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,840 Speaker 1: You've got what's called the known base. Then you have 632 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: the forensic base and the forensic base. Or those cases 633 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,239 Speaker 1: that are open, no one knows who they are. They're 634 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 1: not in the CODIS system, and so they're just out 635 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 1: there floating. And what you want to find from a 636 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:15,399 Speaker 1: DNA perspective is a thread that goes back. And the 637 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 1: beauty of CODIS in theoretically is that if you've got 638 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: an offender that's committing multiple crimes all over the place, 639 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: maybe they're serialized events, you can actually geographic, geographically track 640 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: the movements of this person based upon these sexual assaults 641 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: or whatever it is they're engaged in where you know 642 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:39,800 Speaker 1: they're in Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, Texas or Oklahoma and moving around. 643 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: And do you remember when we covered Samuel Samuel Little, 644 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,400 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, yeah, yeah, And he had killed people 645 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: for years and years and years. If you could, if 646 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 1: you could, and he strangled everybody, I don't know if 647 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 1: you remember this, and he remembered their faces, he could 648 00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 1: draw them, absolutely chilling man. And if you like Samuel Little, 649 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 1: if you had if you had him out of a 650 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: DNA database, and you could plot that on a map, Dave, 651 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 1: where all of these known cases were. Where if you 652 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 1: could go back and plot plot those all these attacks, 653 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:18,240 Speaker 1: if they had gotten samples from these, Dave, the map 654 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:22,839 Speaker 1: would be just absolutely illuminated over this wide geographic area 655 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 1: because he allegedly traveled everywhere from the west coast to 656 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 1: the east coast and north south. Yeah, yeah, point in 657 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 1: George l Yeah. So that's that's how CODIS helps. But 658 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 1: in this case, the Texas and there's a couple other 659 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 1: states that are involved in this, maybe multiple of them 660 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,560 Speaker 1: because there's federal funding for it. You've got these rape 661 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,719 Speaker 1: kits that are gathering dust, you know, just sitting on 662 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: the shelves, and Dave, that's that's the grand salvation in 663 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 1: all of this, you know, that's that's what turned this around, 664 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 1: because it's because of a kit that was performed back 665 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:04,960 Speaker 1: in eighty two that they were able to actually determine 666 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 1: who it was that, in my opinion, took Velma off 667 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:17,359 Speaker 1: of the street, drug her into a culvert, raped and 668 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 1: stabbed her to death, and then abandoned their body, got 669 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,520 Speaker 1: away with it and got away with it, and he's 670 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 1: been walking the streets ever since then. I guess my 671 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:32,839 Speaker 1: big question to the authorities in Texas, what's dude been 672 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 1: doing since then? How many? You know, how many are 673 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 1: there any other cases? Because this is a bold thing 674 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:40,240 Speaker 1: he did, Dave. 675 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:42,960 Speaker 2: I've been looking this up, trying to see what I 676 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:48,920 Speaker 2: can find on Billy Wayne Ludwigson, who is now sixty 677 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:54,120 Speaker 2: two years old. He is now two years younger than 678 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 2: Velma when he murdered her. And I'm not even having 679 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 2: to do allegedly because when Billy Wayne Ludwinson was faced 680 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 2: with they did genetic genealogy. They found him in Colorado 681 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,719 Speaker 2: and the police were able to have a air tight 682 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,839 Speaker 2: case and sat down with him. He ended up confessing, okay, 683 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,960 Speaker 2: they had the DNA, they had everything. Well, the man 684 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 2: is sixty two years old, and they went back to 685 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 2: the family and talked about options for sentencing. He's going 686 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 2: to plead guilty. What are we going to try to 687 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,520 Speaker 2: do here? And this is where we don't know all 688 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,440 Speaker 2: the facts, you know, we only know what we're told. 689 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,680 Speaker 2: And he was sentenced to twenty years in prison for 690 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,279 Speaker 2: this crime that took place back in nineteen eighty two. 691 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 1: Again a tip of the cap to law enforcement in 692 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:54,400 Speaker 1: Odessa and the Texas Rangers in particular here for staying 693 00:42:54,440 --> 00:43:01,080 Speaker 1: on this case after all these many years. But just 694 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:05,880 Speaker 1: for a moment, let's consider Velma's family all those years. 695 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 1: For right after her death had occurred, there was a 696 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,920 Speaker 1: glimmer of hope that the beast that had done this 697 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:18,239 Speaker 1: to her, this woman that walked to work every day 698 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:22,319 Speaker 1: at a mall, had been taken off the streets. But 699 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:28,720 Speaker 1: yet that was yanked away from them. But now I can't, 700 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,839 Speaker 1: even in my wildest fantasies, imagine what it would be 701 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,720 Speaker 1: like to have that knock at the door after forty 702 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:37,759 Speaker 1: years and someone comes to you and says, guess what, 703 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:45,959 Speaker 1: We've got Velma's killer. All those years missing her, the Thanksgivings, 704 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:51,400 Speaker 1: the Christmases, the birthdays, anniversaries, But now maybe we know 705 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,120 Speaker 1: that there will never actually be closure, but maybe on 706 00:43:55,120 --> 00:44:00,879 Speaker 1: one level, some resolution to a mystery that has now 707 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:07,480 Speaker 1: been solved involving a woman found in a culvert in Odessa, Texas. 708 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:14,520 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Packs