Speaker 1: There are no girls on the Internet. As a production
Speaker 1: of I heart radio and unboss creative. I'm bridget todd
Speaker 1: and this is there are no girls on the Internet.
Speaker 1: Since you're listening to this podcast, there's a good chance
Speaker 1: you're familiar with the podcast serial true crime, podcast that
Speaker 1: covered the murder of Korean American high school student Hey Manley,
Speaker 1: who was last seen alive on January. Oddnan said was
Speaker 1: convicted of Hayes murder in but this week a Baltimore
Speaker 1: judge vacated the conviction and ordered his immediate release. According
Speaker 1: to VOX, a new investigation in Oddnan's conviction found errors
Speaker 1: in his original court case, including multiple Brady violations, which
Speaker 1: means the prosecution refused to turn over potentially exculpatory evidence
Speaker 1: to the defense prior to his trial. Today, ann is
Speaker 1: a Freeman and the state now has thirty days to
Speaker 1: either drop the existing charges against him or schedule a retrial.
Speaker 1: Now this is great news for Anan, but it's still
Speaker 1: really said that he has spent so much of his
Speaker 1: life behind bars and that hayes killer has been out
Speaker 1: there all this time and her family and community have
Speaker 1: never gotten justice. Attorney and advocate Robbia Chadri is a
Speaker 1: childhood friend of Anan's. She's been fighting nonstop for his
Speaker 1: release and advocating for the wrongfully convicted. On our own podcast, undisclosed,
Speaker 1: she and her team investigate wrongful convictions and the US
Speaker 1: criminal justice system by taking a closer look at evidence
Speaker 1: that never made it to court. So, while most people
Speaker 1: might remember cereal as the big, flashy podcast that got
Speaker 1: Anan's case a ton of attention, it was Robbia who
Speaker 1: did a lot of the tireless work that led to
Speaker 1: his release. And, as it so often is for women,
Speaker 1: especially women of color like Robbia, that work was not
Speaker 1: without a personal cost. For Robbia, part of the personal
Speaker 1: cost for that work was having to deal with a terrifying,
Speaker 1: coordinated harassment campaign against her from another true crime podcaster.
Speaker 1: Last mate, Robbia and I sat down to talk about
Speaker 1: this harassment campaign, which, while horrible and terrifying, didn't keep
Speaker 1: her from that important work, the very same work that
Speaker 1: would go on to lead to on non's release. So
Speaker 1: let's listen. You're listening to disinformed, a mini series from
Speaker 1: there are no girls on the Internet. I'm bridget todd.
Speaker 1: You might know attorney Rabbia Chandri from her role in
Speaker 1: the case of a non. Said Ann was convicted of
Speaker 1: first degree murder for the death of Hey Menley, a
Speaker 1: high school student in Baltimore who was last seen on January.
Speaker 1: Lee's family remains convinced of odd non's guilt, but he
Speaker 1: maintains his innocence and Robbia has been fighting to disonerate him.
Speaker 1: She brought his story to investigative journalist Sarah Kaneg, which
Speaker 1: became the hit true crime podcast cereal. Robbia hosts her
Speaker 1: own true crime podcast called undisclosed. Rashida her co host,
Speaker 1: who are also lawyers, explore wrongful convictions. Now, even though
Speaker 1: there's literally hundreds of thousands of podcasts out there, the
Speaker 1: podcast community can be kind of small. We see each
Speaker 1: other at events and conferences, and right now Robbia is
Speaker 1: facing a coordinated harassment campaign from another podcaster. Now, talking
Speaker 1: about this kind of online harassment is tricky and it's
Speaker 1: so easy to do it irresponsibly. Let me talk about harassment.
Speaker 1: We're often centering the harasser and their tactics, the experience
Speaker 1: of the person who has been harassed, how they're feeling
Speaker 1: and how it shapes their work and their perspective can
Speaker 1: often go overlooked or not mentioned at all. So I
Speaker 1: don't want to do that and honestly, the person harassing
Speaker 1: Robbia does not need a big spotlight, but I do
Speaker 1: need to tell you the broad strokes of what's going
Speaker 1: on to make clear the full weight of how harassment
Speaker 1: can impact our real lives. I believe Robbia is at
Speaker 1: the center of a dangerous, coordinated harassment campaign being orchestrated
Speaker 1: by Mike Boudet, the host of sword and scale, a
Speaker 1: popular and successful true crime podcast. On his website Mike
Speaker 1: sells merchandise with the slogan Adnan did it a reference
Speaker 1: to Robbie's relationship with Adnan. He's encouraged his followers to
Speaker 1: show up at her public speaking events. Stuff that is
Speaker 1: just super scary stuff that makes me concerned for Robbie's
Speaker 1: actual safety. If you check out the verified twitter page
Speaker 1: for sword and scale, you can see a little of
Speaker 1: what I mean. Mike's podcast. It's really popular and he
Speaker 1: has a huge fan base, and this is another reason
Speaker 1: why talking about online harassment is kind of tricky. No
Speaker 1: one wants to be on the radar of someone who's
Speaker 1: a harasser. Other members of the true crime podcast community
Speaker 1: have talked about being afraid to speak up because of
Speaker 1: the behavior year they've seen from him. No one wants
Speaker 1: to wake up and find the flood of hateful comments
Speaker 1: directed at you on social media or a flood of
Speaker 1: one star reviews on your podcast, but this is also
Speaker 1: how harassment festers. People don't speak up and they don't
Speaker 1: call it out for what it is. In doing research
Speaker 1: for this episode, an article about what Robbie is going
Speaker 1: through described her as having a feud with Mike Boudet.
Speaker 1: A feud is a difference of opinion, a few might
Speaker 1: be tense exchanges on social media. A feud is not
Speaker 1: when one person is concerned with their actual safety. That's
Speaker 1: harassment and we need to talk about the way it
Speaker 1: and packs our work and our lives. I was in
Speaker 1: law school Um when when the best friend of my
Speaker 1: younger brother was arrested, non say, and that has kind
Speaker 1: of gotten me Um. You know, it was just one
Speaker 1: of those things where I witnessed it a close and
Speaker 1: personal I was there in his trial, when he was convicted,
Speaker 1: and I just witnessed the horror of all of it
Speaker 1: and I couldn't believe what I was seeing and I
Speaker 1: had no idea what the criminal justice system was like
Speaker 1: until what happened with Annan, and our community also was
Speaker 1: pretty naive. So that's what really drew me in and
Speaker 1: kept me there all these years. He's still incarcerated, as
Speaker 1: most people know, Um, but from his case, my my
Speaker 1: work has stemmed out into doing other wrongful conviction work
Speaker 1: for the last six seven years. That's been the focus
Speaker 1: of my work. Yeah, you know, I read this great
Speaker 1: quote from your mom. She says your time in this
Speaker 1: world is really limited. What are you going to do
Speaker 1: with it? And something about that. First of all, your
Speaker 1: mom sounds awesome. She's a force to be reckoned with,
Speaker 1: for sure. Something about that quote that really struck me
Speaker 1: was this idea that you are doing very important work.
Speaker 1: You know, legitimately life and death work. You know, working
Speaker 1: with people who have been incarcerated, all of that. This
Speaker 1: is important stuff and you know we only have so
Speaker 1: much time in a day and so much time on
Speaker 1: this world and so much energy that we that we
Speaker 1: can spent. And so to see somebody like you going
Speaker 1: through harassment campaigns, do you want to feel that this,
Speaker 1: these kinds of campaigns are kind of deliberately meant to
Speaker 1: distract you from this important work that you actually have
Speaker 1: to do. You know, I have been through, I mean,
Speaker 1: numerous very intense uh kind of onslaughts, Um, like in
Speaker 1: in different, different times in my life, for different reasons.
Speaker 1: So different groups who want to attack me for different reasons.
Speaker 1: and Um, I think the first time I went through
Speaker 1: it really really it was really terrible. It's around the
Speaker 1: time cereal came out actually, um, but it wasn't so
Speaker 1: much related to cereals, related from the interfaith work I
Speaker 1: did and I spent Um, I learned my lesson because
Speaker 1: I spent about three months trying to respond to everything,
Speaker 1: not realizing that how trolling works and how harassment works. Um.
Speaker 1: Then I when I realized, first of all I was
Speaker 1: I felt I was sick, I was exhausted, I was
Speaker 1: physically I had gotten really sick over that time just
Speaker 1: from the strain of it. Um. Then the realization hit
Speaker 1: me that, you know, what they want me to do
Speaker 1: is not to function. They want me to and they're
Speaker 1: winning because I'm spending all my time, like you know,
Speaker 1: it's like that whack a mole game, right, like trying
Speaker 1: to respond to this thing and you responded this thing
Speaker 1: and they come at you with another thing. I'm like, Oh,
Speaker 1: this is brilliant. They're keeping me wrapped up in this
Speaker 1: crazy and I'm wasting my time and my health and
Speaker 1: my sanity Um and not doing my work. And so
Speaker 1: now I always think about it like that. But like,
Speaker 1: if this is preventing me from doing my work, they're
Speaker 1: winning Um. And so a hundred percent of distraction. What
Speaker 1: people who are rassing you online want to do is
Speaker 1: to make sure you cannot actually function. Yeah, all the
Speaker 1: women that I talked to who faith, you know, intense harassment.
Speaker 1: That's something that they talk about. That's something that a
Speaker 1: lot of their situations have in common that at one
Speaker 1: point they, you know, they are trying to respond to
Speaker 1: everything and really engaged and then they realize they're spending
Speaker 1: all their time focusing on the harassment. So whatever the
Speaker 1: thing is, whether it was justice work like you, or
Speaker 1: act of his work or writing, they are spending more
Speaker 1: time trying to respond to the trolls, which they will
Speaker 1: never be able to satisfy because sort of the trip
Speaker 1: of harassment, they're spending more time on that than they
Speaker 1: are sort of doing the thing that is their purpose
Speaker 1: and I believe that really is one of the the
Speaker 1: purposes of this kind of harassment. It's to keep powerful women, or, quote,
Speaker 1: mouthy women or women who you know can can accomplish something,
Speaker 1: to keep it's to keep us from accomplishing whatever it
Speaker 1: is that we're meant to be doing on this earth.
Speaker 1: There's that, there's that aspect of it, and then there's
Speaker 1: the aspect of they want you to like. They wanted
Speaker 1: to drag you down to their level. They're they're punching up.
Speaker 1: In almost every case they punching up. They want your attention,
Speaker 1: they want relevance, so your attention gives them relevance. Otherwise
Speaker 1: they are irrelevant. Essentially. That's so true. It's so true
Speaker 1: and I know in your case I can't help up
Speaker 1: wonder if part of the reason why some of the
Speaker 1: folks who really have like an obsession with you and
Speaker 1: your work, part of it is because you're very successful,
Speaker 1: you're very effective at what you do, and that makes
Speaker 1: them even more angry. You know, it is kind of
Speaker 1: an attempt to drag you down to their level because
Speaker 1: you're so successful, because they know you can be so effective. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's interesting. You know, I um most recently,
Speaker 1: in the last couple of years, the attacks have been
Speaker 1: coming from this one particular podcaster and he's he's actually
Speaker 1: an incredibly successful podcaster, which is what's shocking about this
Speaker 1: particular situation. Is, like, Dude, you he might be much
Speaker 1: more successful in the sense of Um. I mean in
Speaker 1: one metric, which is like, I think he probably makes
Speaker 1: a lot more money than what me and my team
Speaker 1: make doing the work that we do. But the metric
Speaker 1: that's important for us is like the value of our work,
Speaker 1: and the value of our work is, are we able
Speaker 1: to help exonerate the people whose cases were working on
Speaker 1: and Um and basically just be able to pay cover
Speaker 1: our costs, that we can do it so it doesn't
Speaker 1: cost anything to the defendant because for for most and
Speaker 1: cars people, they can't afford, uh, the appeals, they can't
Speaker 1: afford the reinvestigation, and we're able to cover those costs. So,
Speaker 1: by that metric, my work is more, I would say,
Speaker 1: much more meaningful. Um. Maybe that's mothersome to to some people,
Speaker 1: but I can't say that I'm the most successful podcast
Speaker 1: and in senses, like, we're not minting money over here.
Speaker 1: You know we're not. We're not. Yeah, you know, sometimes
Speaker 1: I wish the kind of work that you're producing was
Speaker 1: valued in that same way. It can be a little
Speaker 1: bit frustrating sometimes I'm like, man, I could be doing
Speaker 1: like the kind of true crime podcast that you can
Speaker 1: just knock out like in an hour or so and
Speaker 1: just get online and chat with somebody about some case.
Speaker 1: But our shows, for every hour that we air, we
Speaker 1: were talking about hundreds of hours of prep of maybe
Speaker 1: two years lead time of invest two years of investigation
Speaker 1: before we can air a case. So it's very, very intensive,
Speaker 1: and but then the day that's what that's it's purposeful
Speaker 1: and and that's what I can do. That's what I
Speaker 1: do best. I don't do well what other people do right.
Speaker 1: I can't do to prompt comedy and I can't do
Speaker 1: other things, but this is what I do. And so,
Speaker 1: you know, as long as we're able to cover our
Speaker 1: costs Um and provide this really as a service to
Speaker 1: the people who those cases we're looking at, we're going
Speaker 1: to continue to do it. Talking about this in terms
Speaker 1: of being in the podcast industry, you know, one of
Speaker 1: the people who is waging UH targeted harassment campaign against
Speaker 1: you is a very popular podcaster, Mike Rude and I
Speaker 1: think that it's hard for me to watch as a like,
Speaker 1: as a podcaster. It's hard for me to watch the
Speaker 1: PODCAST industry and Ecosystems still support this. And you know,
Speaker 1: one of the things I saw on your twitter that
Speaker 1: I think is so correct is like people need to
Speaker 1: understand that if you listen to if you like, when
Speaker 1: you listen to this podcast, this is what you're supporting.
Speaker 1: I think it can be really easy for listeners to say, Oh, well,
Speaker 1: I'm just listening to the show, I don't know what's
Speaker 1: going on. You know, I don't, I'm not, I'm not
Speaker 1: quote following whatever's happening. But really it's been hard to
Speaker 1: see the silence, I would say, from the podcast industry
Speaker 1: in terms of watching someone essentially harass a colleague. You know,
Speaker 1: I think of all podcasters that's kind of in the
Speaker 1: same you know, the same club, and a a kind of way,
Speaker 1: it's been really hard. Yeah, you know, there, there, and
Speaker 1: you know why, though, because, Um, and then you're right.
Speaker 1: I mean, so we are. PODCASTING is a community, podcast
Speaker 1: content creators. We are a community, and then you have
Speaker 1: your genres. So the true crime community is, even as
Speaker 1: a smaller subsect of that, and many of us are close.
Speaker 1: We teach at their different conferences and conventions. We support
Speaker 1: each other this work. We're listeners. We listened to each
Speaker 1: other shows. Um. So what I know? Uh, what I
Speaker 1: know for sure because we've we've people have confessed this
Speaker 1: to be privately, they have said it publicly, they have
Speaker 1: written about it. Is that the same person who I
Speaker 1: think he's? I just think he's like a disturbed individual. Um.
Speaker 1: Many of them are afraid to really be public because
Speaker 1: when they have tried to push back publicly on any
Speaker 1: of his day he will come after them and he
Speaker 1: does have a very big show and he has um
Speaker 1: a lot of fall wars and so he can really
Speaker 1: crush the smaller shows by flooding them with one star reviews,
Speaker 1: by harassing them into like leaving social media, Um, and
Speaker 1: so a lot I've had people reach out and say,
Speaker 1: I'm afraid to say anything, but I just want you
Speaker 1: to know that you know I'm support you, but I
Speaker 1: this guy scares me. He's done this to me before.
Speaker 1: Like it was like so, Um, that's why. But there
Speaker 1: are some folks who have like, in a very public way,
Speaker 1: stepped up in the last couple of months and been
Speaker 1: like enough is enough right, and and they have really
Speaker 1: condemned his behavior and I appreciate that, but not everybody
Speaker 1: can afford to and I completely understand them. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: so tough and I think you just articulated one of
Speaker 1: the hallmarks of online harassment and abuse and coordinated harassment
Speaker 1: campaigns is that it really has a silencing effect, not
Speaker 1: just on the person that is targeted, but anyone who
Speaker 1: might want to, you know, stick up for that person,
Speaker 1: anyone who, you know, might want to challenge what's going on.
Speaker 1: It's such a big silencing effect that I think that
Speaker 1: we don't talk enough about that as a speech issue.
Speaker 1: That the kind of people who, you know, we're saying like,
Speaker 1: Oh gee, I don't want to be too outspoken because
Speaker 1: I don't want what's happening to her to happen to me.
Speaker 1: I don't want it to be me next. I can't
Speaker 1: afford to have this kind of thing. So they don't
Speaker 1: speak up or they just leave social media altogether or
Speaker 1: they don't say the things that they actually want to say.
Speaker 1: That is one of the hallmarks of online harassment campaign
Speaker 1: that we just don't talk about, and truly we with
Speaker 1: all of the you know, Rigamar role about free speech
Speaker 1: and cancel culture. We need to start taking that more
Speaker 1: seriously as a speech issue because, you know, if an
Speaker 1: entire group of, you know, already marginalized contact creators feel
Speaker 1: like they can't speak up and say what they want
Speaker 1: to say because they're terrified of this person, one person,
Speaker 1: like if that's that's that is not good and we
Speaker 1: need to be talking about like perhaps we have, perhaps
Speaker 1: it's a problem with our our kind of media and
Speaker 1: digital media landscape, but also it's a wider problem about
Speaker 1: how much space one person is a lot to take up.
Speaker 1: How how much, how much that one person is allowed
Speaker 1: to dictate this entire community. I mean, look, we we
Speaker 1: saw this Um in as big as way as possible
Speaker 1: with the former guy, the former guy who is in
Speaker 1: the White House Um. So yeah, one person to have
Speaker 1: a lot of power. They can be very destructive, one
Speaker 1: person can be a complete wrecking ball, and that's what
Speaker 1: this particular person is. He's a wrecking ball. But what's
Speaker 1: really crazy about the whole thing is that he's mostly
Speaker 1: wrecking himself right like in all of this as he's
Speaker 1: scaring people and stuff, he's getting deep platforms, getting dropped
Speaker 1: by sponsors, getting dropped by his Um, his his, his
Speaker 1: different companies and uh, and at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: you know, the rest of us are still going to
Speaker 1: be invited and show up to two different spaces that, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, relevant to our our work. And while he's
Speaker 1: kind of been ostracized for years, so it's not just
Speaker 1: you know, I'm a target. Um, I think I'm a
Speaker 1: big target for him because I won't just take it
Speaker 1: and disappear. Um, and it's frustrating to him. But Um,
Speaker 1: most people just kind of quietly, like, you know, Fade
Speaker 1: into the background and so he stops attacking them after
Speaker 1: a while. Um. And you know, for me also, what
Speaker 1: I realized was, like what gives people like that fuel
Speaker 1: is just attention. And so they're just star for attention
Speaker 1: and I assume purpose and meaning their life and I
Speaker 1: don't have the time to give that to them because
Speaker 1: I got too much going on in my life. You know,
Speaker 1: I have too much work that's actually has an impact
Speaker 1: on people's lives that I got to do on a
Speaker 1: time for it. Let's take a quick break and are back.
Speaker 1: According to data from annesty International, women of color are
Speaker 1: disproportionately targeted for online harassment and abuse, and we see
Speaker 1: this playing out in all kinds of places. For instance,
Speaker 1: former President Donald Trump was known for lashing out at
Speaker 1: reporters of all stripes. But it's worst both vitriolic comments
Speaker 1: are always reserved for journalists who also happened to be
Speaker 1: black women or women of color, like White House Correspondence
Speaker 1: Yamichel Sendor, April Ryan and young, and that his behavior
Speaker 1: towards them made them even bigger targets for abuse precisely
Speaker 1: because they're women of color. Knowing this, it's not surprising that,
Speaker 1: even though Mike has had issues with white male podcasters
Speaker 1: in the past, he isn't selling merchandise referencing their work
Speaker 1: on his website, and those men aren't being called out
Speaker 1: specifically by name in his podcast official twitter bio, like
Speaker 1: Robbia is. Robbia is far from the only podcaster who
Speaker 1: has criticized him. Yet Mike has not threatened to make
Speaker 1: a daily podcast blaming those men if he's ever kicked
Speaker 1: off social media, but he's threatened to do that to Robbia.
Speaker 1: I also think part of it is that you're a
Speaker 1: woman of color. You know, the data is very clear
Speaker 1: that women like women of color. We are disproportionately targeted.
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, we you had earlier that
Speaker 1: he has gone after other podcasters, white man. He's not making,
Speaker 1: you know, merchant based around their work. There are people,
Speaker 1: there are certain kinds of people, we know exactly who
Speaker 1: they are, that they cannot stand a woman of color, uh,
Speaker 1: like having any kind of backbone. They want us to
Speaker 1: be subservient, they want us to they want us to
Speaker 1: be in our place. They want to put us in
Speaker 1: our place. Um and yeah, I think that that that's
Speaker 1: one of the biggest triggers for this guy and for
Speaker 1: others like him. Is that. Who the hell does she
Speaker 1: think she is? Why isn't she like, you know, getting
Speaker 1: in her place where she needs to be? Um and
Speaker 1: UH and you know, but what do you do? I mean,
Speaker 1: like we've seen this happen on a national stage. We've
Speaker 1: seen this happen with incredible black female correspondence and journalists. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, coming from a presidential administration. So we've justn't
Speaker 1: seen this happen in so many different ways. Um, and
Speaker 1: I think that's really a big part of why I
Speaker 1: am a particular target for this person. I think that's
Speaker 1: so true. I think there's something about when a woman
Speaker 1: of color is outspoken, where people look at us and say,
Speaker 1: who does she think she is? Doesn't she know that
Speaker 1: she's supposed to just lie down and take it or immediately,
Speaker 1: you know, fall all over self apologizing the fact that
Speaker 1: you won't do that. I think it just it triggers
Speaker 1: something very ugly inside of a certain kind of person. Definitely,
Speaker 1: when these kinds of harassment campaigns, the kind of thing
Speaker 1: that you've gone through, were happening, so many people and
Speaker 1: institutions that actually have power do nothing, and I think
Speaker 1: that that's another hallmark of this kind of harassment that
Speaker 1: we see. You know, uh, so, like I was, you know,
Speaker 1: on twitter. This person's podcast has a verified account. You know,
Speaker 1: we know that D platforming is a very effective way
Speaker 1: of curbing harassment, and yet, you know, social media platforms
Speaker 1: seem to be doing nothing. You know, we see journalists
Speaker 1: describe what's happening to you as a quote feud, as
Speaker 1: if you as if you two are just sort of
Speaker 1: had in some kind of a sparring match and that
Speaker 1: this is not a pretty intense and serious, coordinated online
Speaker 1: harassment campaign against you. You know, what is it like
Speaker 1: to see so many institutions and people with power really
Speaker 1: do nothing to curb this when they could. I mean
Speaker 1: it's not surprising. We've seen this so many times, especially
Speaker 1: with women, and we've seen this in so many different Um,
Speaker 1: like you know, different controversies I've taken place with women
Speaker 1: getting HARASSD and and making it public, and you know
Speaker 1: it's uh, the gaslight you. So it's like if you
Speaker 1: if I'm being attacked and harassed, whether it's in my
Speaker 1: d M S, it's my emails, it's all coming from
Speaker 1: the same source. However, it's happening. If I call attention
Speaker 1: to it in order to get some kind of response
Speaker 1: from these platforms, Um, then people say, well, why are that?
Speaker 1: Then it becomes a few they frame it like it's
Speaker 1: a feud and it's not a feud. It's me calling
Speaker 1: attention to his behavior, Um, and if you don't see
Speaker 1: anything and you just take it, I mean I guess
Speaker 1: that's kind of what they want, just don't take and
Speaker 1: take it. But these platforms, they don't really do anything.
Speaker 1: What is effect, what has been more effective, is is
Speaker 1: asking people to just report Um, certain posts and tweets
Speaker 1: and stuff. Some get removed, some don't get removed. I
Speaker 1: mean free speech first ament, is what it is. I
Speaker 1: guess we have the legal right to be as ugly
Speaker 1: as you want. I think I hit my um, I
Speaker 1: kind of hit my limit when there were people, Um,
Speaker 1: his followers and his mentions and he's like kind of encouraging.
Speaker 1: He's encouraging people to go to like my speaking events,
Speaker 1: to like find me in real life. Uh. And then
Speaker 1: he had people saying things like hopefully she'll get murdered herself,
Speaker 1: hopefully a non one. More then I was like this
Speaker 1: has gone like too far, and that's when I really
Speaker 1: that's when I finally kind of posted. I said I
Speaker 1: have called on twitter and facebook to the platform him.
Speaker 1: This is the kind of stuff he's saying and encouraging
Speaker 1: and they won't. And if something happens to me or
Speaker 1: my family, then there they know they also need to
Speaker 1: be held responsible. Yeah, I mean the kind of thing
Speaker 1: that I've seen. I've seen, you know people. I'll see
Speaker 1: people be like, Oh, well, she should just block him
Speaker 1: if she doesn't like what he has to say. I mean, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: you know. And it's like getting people to understand that
Speaker 1: this is not just something that is happening like, quote unquote,
Speaker 1: on twitter, on the computer. I very genuinely sometimes worry
Speaker 1: for your safety in real life and everything that we
Speaker 1: know about online harassment. But even if it starts online,
Speaker 1: it doesn't stay online and very often it's connected to
Speaker 1: real world violence. And so I am I when I
Speaker 1: see the kinds of things that he's encouraging his followers
Speaker 1: to do, I get very concerned for your actual safety. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I've had my moments of concern. I mean I think, Um,
Speaker 1: he it just takes one unhinged person to think, I
Speaker 1: gotta do something about this, you know, especially because the
Speaker 1: way he particularly frames it is, I mean this, it's such,
Speaker 1: I mean, like you see, we've seen this technique unfold
Speaker 1: like online, Um, like with the elections, right. So what
Speaker 1: trump said was these people are harming our elections. What
Speaker 1: this guy says is this woman is shutting down my podcast.
Speaker 1: I mean he's got an incredibly successful podcast. I'm not
Speaker 1: shutting anything down. Um, he's continue to produce and I've
Speaker 1: gotten messages from from people, from men, saying, Um, if you, if,
Speaker 1: if he ends up losing his podcast because of you,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna come get you. kind of stuff for a podcast, right, like. So,
Speaker 1: the way he's framing it is to basically target, is
Speaker 1: to direct people's rage towards me, in case, like you know,
Speaker 1: so they can like take out, take out revenge or something.
Speaker 1: In case, like he you know, he stops making a show,
Speaker 1: which is not gonna but Um, and on top of
Speaker 1: which everything that he's lost in terms of sponsors and
Speaker 1: it's it's been a percent him more. After a quick break,
Speaker 1: let's get right back and do it. After my celebrated
Speaker 1: International Women's Day by posting a really gross meme about
Speaker 1: violence against women on social media, people in the podcast
Speaker 1: community spoke up and, wondering sort in scales, network eventually
Speaker 1: announced they were partying ways with the show. Mike vowed
Speaker 1: to keep the show running without the support of the network,
Speaker 1: tweeting anything that was ad supported. is over now because
Speaker 1: of Aaron Manky from Lare and Rabbia from undisclosed, who
Speaker 1: led this boycott against me and my company because they
Speaker 1: didn't like certain things I said. But that tweet pretty
Speaker 1: conveniently leaves out any responsibility for the consequences of his
Speaker 1: own actions, like it's his own actions that have caused
Speaker 1: it and he won't take responsibility for his behavior. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, but there's only so much. You know, I
Speaker 1: did report Um that. I did report the harassment to
Speaker 1: law enforcement, but you know, we also don't have very
Speaker 1: strong cyber stalking laws and stuff in this country. There's
Speaker 1: only so much you can do to protect yourself and
Speaker 1: other than that it's kind of like, okay, try to
Speaker 1: keep my family safe, you know, got got security cameras up,
Speaker 1: got alarm system things like that. But what can I do? If,
Speaker 1: you know, once Covid is lifted and I'm out in
Speaker 1: the public again, I always did a lot of traveling
Speaker 1: and speaking and and uh, and, and I have a
Speaker 1: new book coming out next year and I'll be traveling
Speaker 1: for that and it is what it is. I can't
Speaker 1: like hide right. Yeah, and it goes back to what
Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier. Of this is preventing you
Speaker 1: from living your life, from doing your work, from making
Speaker 1: your living. You know, especially as kind of public contact
Speaker 1: creators like that kind of thing, you do have to
Speaker 1: have a fair amount of like public stuff, whether it's
Speaker 1: appearances or are speaking engagements or conferences or panels or whatever,
Speaker 1: to to do that. And so the way that this
Speaker 1: is really like would really make it difficult for you
Speaker 1: to be able to do that without wondering in the
Speaker 1: back of your head like, is today the day that
Speaker 1: some you know, some listener of his, takes matters into
Speaker 1: his own hands? It's preventing you from being able to
Speaker 1: live life the way that you want to live your life,
Speaker 1: and I think that that's something that people really forget
Speaker 1: about this kind of harassment, is that it's not just online,
Speaker 1: it's in real life as well. Oh, it is, I
Speaker 1: mean a percent, I um. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: I mean, like you know, and I've had to process
Speaker 1: through this with my own lawyer and and people who
Speaker 1: are close to me and Um, that I turned to
Speaker 1: for advice. But you know, it's actually not gonna happen.
Speaker 1: I'M NOT gonna change the way I live my life, Um,
Speaker 1: other than just taking some general precautions. I'm going to continue,
Speaker 1: going to continue to the work, I'M gonna continue to
Speaker 1: travel and speak. I mean I I speak to a
Speaker 1: lot of law schools and law firms and Um, and
Speaker 1: universities about this work, and that's the kind of stuff
Speaker 1: that helps scale it up. You know, you get people
Speaker 1: to support the work, you get students saying I want
Speaker 1: to go to law school now Um, and so, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm going to continue to do it at the end
Speaker 1: of the day. Um, and it is what it is.
Speaker 1: I mean, like there's just you know, I like I'm
Speaker 1: also a religious person. I'm a person of faith and
Speaker 1: I firmly you that when your time is written, it's written.
Speaker 1: What it's supposed to come, it is supposed to come. So,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I mean like there's this kind of
Speaker 1: no avoiding it. So what, it's gonna Happen. It's gonna Happen,
Speaker 1: but you know, but of course you don't want it
Speaker 1: to happen because it's something as ridiculous and stupid as
Speaker 1: something like this. Yeah, yeah, and I think something that
Speaker 1: you said is so touching, knowing that you are going
Speaker 1: to continue to inspire so many it's like you're building
Speaker 1: this little army of people who are inspired to following
Speaker 1: your footsteps and following your legacy and continue to create
Speaker 1: that kind of justice. You know, the impact that you
Speaker 1: will have on so many people is so big and
Speaker 1: your voice can be so big and the idea that
Speaker 1: this one asshole could stop it is obviously he couldn't. Right,
Speaker 1: like you're like the impact that you can have, that
Speaker 1: you have is so much bigger than anything that this
Speaker 1: person could ever, you know, dream up to try to
Speaker 1: stop it. I feel yeah, you know, I kind of
Speaker 1: laugh about it sometimes when he he posts things about
Speaker 1: a nons case or other aspects of work and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm an attorney, I've been doing this for like twenty
Speaker 1: odd years. I have I have a team of attorneys
Speaker 1: I work with, I work with the innocence project across
Speaker 1: the country on cases, and this completely unqualified, you know,
Speaker 1: White Guy, rightly, like this completely qualified guy, thinks that
Speaker 1: he has the same like skill set, or or even
Speaker 1: has the same like he's he's so entitled that he
Speaker 1: feels like his opinion is equal to my expertise. I mean,
Speaker 1: like really Um and I think that prior drives me
Speaker 1: crazy too. I mean, like is the fact that I
Speaker 1: want to be like, listen, go to law school, spent
Speaker 1: about ten, fifteen years doing innocence work and then let's
Speaker 1: talk about this case, like you know, you have a
Speaker 1: completely uninformed opinion. You're you can't come close to like
Speaker 1: my you know, the work that I do, because you
Speaker 1: don't have the experience. I'm sure he's great at what
Speaker 1: he does. I can't do what he does. I will
Speaker 1: never do what he does and he can't do what
Speaker 1: I do. As simple as that. And so it's just
Speaker 1: like apples and oranges. And I think what it is
Speaker 1: as he thinks, oh, she's got a true crime podcast.
Speaker 1: My podcast as a means to an end. Um. The
Speaker 1: whole point of the podcast is I could end the
Speaker 1: podcast tomorrow as long as I could find a way
Speaker 1: to financially support the work of of helping people get
Speaker 1: back in court right WHO's been cars for years. The
Speaker 1: podcast is a way to do that. That's not the work.
Speaker 1: The work is the other work that I do outside
Speaker 1: of the recording studio. Yeah, that's something I love about
Speaker 1: your work is that it's not just so many folks
Speaker 1: like and not to not to crap on them, but
Speaker 1: the work begins and ends in the podcast studio and
Speaker 1: you are out there making like, doing the actual work,
Speaker 1: making the actual difference. And and I love it. Chose too.
Speaker 1: I listen to them all the time. I Love I
Speaker 1: love those kinds of I love all kinds of shows.
Speaker 1: I mean that's you know, I love investigative stuff, but
Speaker 1: this is what I do. And so, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: what I think is kind of interesting is like Um,
Speaker 1: his he's calling on those followers and other people who
Speaker 1: attack me too, to try and stop, like I want
Speaker 1: to be like you really want to, you really want
Speaker 1: to prevent a person from doing the kind of work
Speaker 1: I'm doing. Like that in itself is like almost evil.
Speaker 1: It's like if I was handing out water bottles at
Speaker 1: the border and somebody's like no, I want to shoot
Speaker 1: them all out of your hand, like you want to
Speaker 1: prevent me from doing like work that's going to change
Speaker 1: people's lives. Like yes, it's really crappy, right. And because, yeah,
Speaker 1: you're doing this, this important justice work, and I think
Speaker 1: that all the people who see what's happening, who might
Speaker 1: otherwise be inspired to follow in your footsteps and do
Speaker 1: this kind of work, how many of them are going
Speaker 1: to see this and be like, oh well, I don't
Speaker 1: want to do that. You know, it's like you're preventing
Speaker 1: the spread of justice in the world by by, you know,
Speaker 1: behaving in this way. But, you know, look up, he
Speaker 1: can only he and others can only harass me if
Speaker 1: I allow myself to like feel harassed in some extent Um.
Speaker 1: And it was only in the time when I felt
Speaker 1: like this is getting kind of dangerous, some of the
Speaker 1: rhetorics getting dangerous that I really felt stress over it, um,
Speaker 1: but then I was like, my due diligence is that.
Speaker 1: I've told my attorney, I've notified the platforms, I've put
Speaker 1: everybody else on notice. Anybody who follows me knows now. Right. So,
Speaker 1: others are hundreds of, if not thousands, of people are
Speaker 1: watching him, Um, watching and documenting every because he does
Speaker 1: have a history of like posting things and deleting them,
Speaker 1: as if things disappear from the Internet. Um, and so
Speaker 1: I've done my due diligence. That's that's all I can do,
Speaker 1: and now I have to get back to my life.
Speaker 1: I also have kids, I've got a husband, I've got cats,
Speaker 1: I've got elderly parents, I have a garden, I have
Speaker 1: things to take care of. I don't want to time
Speaker 1: for this. Absolutely. I mean that's a great question. How
Speaker 1: do you take care of yourself? How do you make
Speaker 1: sure that you know you're the things that matter in
Speaker 1: your life are nurtured and protected during all of this?
Speaker 1: I mean, look, when you're working, mom, I can't be
Speaker 1: like hey, kids, I'm having a bad day. You're just
Speaker 1: gonna have to feed yourselves and, you know, drive yourself
Speaker 1: to school. Um, there are things that are nonegotiable that
Speaker 1: you have to take care of every single day. In
Speaker 1: a way, just having that they're like, Um, it's a
Speaker 1: good distraction from like this meaningless stuff off that's happening
Speaker 1: online in many instances. So I I feel taken I
Speaker 1: feel like I I'm taking care of myself when I
Speaker 1: get my work done, when I you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: I write words a day, when I hit my words
Speaker 1: a day, uh, and I've made sure that, you know,
Speaker 1: my family's got food for today, or I know we're
Speaker 1: getting take out, or I've made the plans Um, and
Speaker 1: my plants aren't dying and my parents. You know, as
Speaker 1: long as I'm checking the boxes of the things that
Speaker 1: I need to do for the people are important to me,
Speaker 1: then that's taking care of myself as well. That is
Speaker 1: how I take care of myself. That's so important. So
Speaker 1: how can folks who might be out there listening either
Speaker 1: support you during this time or support the criminal justice
Speaker 1: work that you're involved in now? Um, well, you know,
Speaker 1: I just think it's important that, look, we do have
Speaker 1: free speech in this country, but that means that we
Speaker 1: allow hate speech. I mean the First Amendment is actually
Speaker 1: created to protect the worst kind of speech possible. It's
Speaker 1: not created to protect the speech everybody loves. Right so,
Speaker 1: but we also have to be able to identify and
Speaker 1: call out hate speech. So what I would say, just
Speaker 1: to help create a safer space, Um, in any kind
Speaker 1: of public discourse, in the media, in social media, is
Speaker 1: to call out hate speech. This is hate speech. What
Speaker 1: you're doing and saying is hate speech. Report hate speech
Speaker 1: you know and then let the platforms decide what they're
Speaker 1: gonna do with it. That's one way to make a
Speaker 1: more safer space for all of us online and even
Speaker 1: in real life. Um. But in order to support the
Speaker 1: justice work, I think you know the cases that we
Speaker 1: do it undisclosed. We've covered about twenty five cases from
Speaker 1: different parts of the country, just listening to the cases,
Speaker 1: reaching out to the defendants. You can find a lot
Speaker 1: of information online, writing to them, leoching out to your
Speaker 1: local I mean my work is pretty focused on innocence work,
Speaker 1: but criminal justice reform is much brought is needed in
Speaker 1: a much more brighter way. But certainly you can reach
Speaker 1: out to your local innocence Um chapter is to ask
Speaker 1: how you can support them. But believe there's a lot
Speaker 1: of incarcerated people behind bars who have not had visitors
Speaker 1: and years, who have nobody to write them, who have
Speaker 1: nobody to call. So in that way, non is incredibly blessed.
Speaker 1: I mean he's never not had family support and friends
Speaker 1: and people to visit him and love him, but there's
Speaker 1: so many people who have nobody and so just finding
Speaker 1: organizations that can connect you to those kinds of people,
Speaker 1: writing letters once or twice a month, you can change
Speaker 1: somebody's life like that. Can you tell us a little
Speaker 1: bit about the upcoming book? Oh yeah, it's a complete
Speaker 1: departure from any of the work that I am known for.
Speaker 1: It's called fatty, fatty boom boom and it's a memoir.
Speaker 1: Fatty fatty boom boom was one of my many childhood
Speaker 1: nicknames because I've always struggled with late issues Um. So
Speaker 1: the memoirs about food, fat and family and I think
Speaker 1: it will resonate with a lot of people, a lot
Speaker 1: of people who have spent their lives struggling with Um,
Speaker 1: who love food and struggle with weight and have to
Speaker 1: deal with family. I love food, man, what can I do?
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, so and my family loves food and
Speaker 1: they want to feed me, but also they want me
Speaker 1: to is weight. It's like never kind of works out, Um. So,
Speaker 1: but it was, it was it was a fun right.
Speaker 1: It was fun to write it because it was very
Speaker 1: different than, like, some of the more serious stuff that
Speaker 1: I do. Our voices matter and we shouldn't have to
Speaker 1: put up with a digital landscape that just allows for
Speaker 1: our voices to be drowned out by harassment. I know
Speaker 1: it can be hard to speak up, to keep joining
Speaker 1: the conversation, to keep using our voices, but that's exactly
Speaker 1: what harassers want, for us to just shut up and
Speaker 1: go away. And even as she's facing a flood of
Speaker 1: threats and harassment, Robbia hopes that other women, especially women
Speaker 1: of color, won't let this kind of thing stop them.
Speaker 1: The only message I would want to leave with, especially
Speaker 1: to Um women of color, to people who are marginalized
Speaker 1: in any way Um in our society, is not to
Speaker 1: let people push you out of spaces. Don't ever let
Speaker 1: it happen. Just don't let it happen. Stand your ground.
Speaker 1: If you've enjoyed this podcast, please help us grow by subscribing.
Speaker 1: Got A story about an interesting thing in tech or
Speaker 1: just want to say hi. We'd love to hear from
Speaker 1: you at hello at Tango Dot Com. Disinformed is brought
Speaker 1: to you by there are no girls on the Internet.
Speaker 1: It's a production of IHEART radio and unbossed creative Jonathan
Speaker 1: Strickland is our executive producer. Tory Harrison is our supervising
Speaker 1: producer and engineer. Michaelmato is our contributing producer. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: bridget tod. For more great podcasts, check out the IHEART
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