1 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: There are no girls on the Internet. As a production 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: of I heart radio and unboss creative. I'm bridget todd 3 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: and this is there are no girls on the Internet. 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 1: Since you're listening to this podcast, there's a good chance 5 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:25,799 Speaker 1: you're familiar with the podcast serial true crime, podcast that 6 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: covered the murder of Korean American high school student Hey Manley, 7 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: who was last seen alive on January. Oddnan said was 8 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: convicted of Hayes murder in but this week a Baltimore 9 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: judge vacated the conviction and ordered his immediate release. According 10 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: to VOX, a new investigation in Oddnan's conviction found errors 11 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: in his original court case, including multiple Brady violations, which 12 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: means the prosecution refused to turn over potentially exculpatory evidence 13 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: to the defense prior to his trial. Today, ann is 14 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: a Freeman and the state now has thirty days to 15 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: either drop the existing charges against him or schedule a retrial. 16 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: Now this is great news for Anan, but it's still 17 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: really said that he has spent so much of his 18 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: life behind bars and that hayes killer has been out 19 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: there all this time and her family and community have 20 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: never gotten justice. Attorney and advocate Robbia Chadri is a 21 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: childhood friend of Anan's. She's been fighting nonstop for his 22 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: release and advocating for the wrongfully convicted. On our own podcast, undisclosed, 23 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: she and her team investigate wrongful convictions and the US 24 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: criminal justice system by taking a closer look at evidence 25 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: that never made it to court. So, while most people 26 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: might remember cereal as the big, flashy podcast that got 27 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: Anan's case a ton of attention, it was Robbia who 28 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: did a lot of the tireless work that led to 29 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: his release. And, as it so often is for women, 30 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: especially women of color like Robbia, that work was not 31 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: without a personal cost. For Robbia, part of the personal 32 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: cost for that work was having to deal with a terrifying, 33 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: coordinated harassment campaign against her from another true crime podcaster. 34 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: Last mate, Robbia and I sat down to talk about 35 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: this harassment campaign, which, while horrible and terrifying, didn't keep 36 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: her from that important work, the very same work that 37 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: would go on to lead to on non's release. So 38 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: let's listen. You're listening to disinformed, a mini series from 39 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: there are no girls on the Internet. I'm bridget todd. 40 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: You might know attorney Rabbia Chandri from her role in 41 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 1: the case of a non. Said Ann was convicted of 42 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: first degree murder for the death of Hey Menley, a 43 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: high school student in Baltimore who was last seen on January. 44 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: Lee's family remains convinced of odd non's guilt, but he 45 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,839 Speaker 1: maintains his innocence and Robbia has been fighting to disonerate him. 46 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: She brought his story to investigative journalist Sarah Kaneg, which 47 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: became the hit true crime podcast cereal. Robbia hosts her 48 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: own true crime podcast called undisclosed. Rashida her co host, 49 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 1: who are also lawyers, explore wrongful convictions. Now, even though 50 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: there's literally hundreds of thousands of podcasts out there, the 51 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 1: podcast community can be kind of small. We see each 52 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: other at events and conferences, and right now Robbia is 53 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: facing a coordinated harassment campaign from another podcaster. Now, talking 54 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: about this kind of online harassment is tricky and it's 55 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: so easy to do it irresponsibly. Let me talk about harassment. 56 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: We're often centering the harasser and their tactics, the experience 57 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: of the person who has been harassed, how they're feeling 58 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: and how it shapes their work and their perspective can 59 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: often go overlooked or not mentioned at all. So I 60 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: don't want to do that and honestly, the person harassing 61 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: Robbia does not need a big spotlight, but I do 62 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: need to tell you the broad strokes of what's going 63 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: on to make clear the full weight of how harassment 64 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: can impact our real lives. I believe Robbia is at 65 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: the center of a dangerous, coordinated harassment campaign being orchestrated 66 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: by Mike Boudet, the host of sword and scale, a 67 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: popular and successful true crime podcast. On his website Mike 68 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: sells merchandise with the slogan Adnan did it a reference 69 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: to Robbie's relationship with Adnan. He's encouraged his followers to 70 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: show up at her public speaking events. Stuff that is 71 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: just super scary stuff that makes me concerned for Robbie's 72 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: actual safety. If you check out the verified twitter page 73 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: for sword and scale, you can see a little of 74 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: what I mean. Mike's podcast. It's really popular and he 75 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: has a huge fan base, and this is another reason 76 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: why talking about online harassment is kind of tricky. No 77 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: one wants to be on the radar of someone who's 78 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 1: a harasser. Other members of the true crime podcast community 79 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: have talked about being afraid to speak up because of 80 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: the behavior year they've seen from him. No one wants 81 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: to wake up and find the flood of hateful comments 82 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: directed at you on social media or a flood of 83 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: one star reviews on your podcast, but this is also 84 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: how harassment festers. People don't speak up and they don't 85 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: call it out for what it is. In doing research 86 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: for this episode, an article about what Robbie is going 87 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: through described her as having a feud with Mike Boudet. 88 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 1: A feud is a difference of opinion, a few might 89 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 1: be tense exchanges on social media. A feud is not 90 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: when one person is concerned with their actual safety. That's 91 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 1: harassment and we need to talk about the way it 92 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: and packs our work and our lives. I was in 93 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: law school Um when when the best friend of my 94 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: younger brother was arrested, non say, and that has kind 95 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: of gotten me Um. You know, it was just one 96 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 1: of those things where I witnessed it a close and 97 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: personal I was there in his trial, when he was convicted, 98 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: and I just witnessed the horror of all of it 99 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: and I couldn't believe what I was seeing and I 100 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: had no idea what the criminal justice system was like 101 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: until what happened with Annan, and our community also was 102 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 1: pretty naive. So that's what really drew me in and 103 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: kept me there all these years. He's still incarcerated, as 104 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: most people know, Um, but from his case, my my 105 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: work has stemmed out into doing other wrongful conviction work 106 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: for the last six seven years. That's been the focus 107 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: of my work. Yeah, you know, I read this great 108 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: quote from your mom. She says your time in this 109 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 1: world is really limited. What are you going to do 110 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: with it? And something about that. First of all, your 111 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: mom sounds awesome. She's a force to be reckoned with, 112 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: for sure. Something about that quote that really struck me 113 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: was this idea that you are doing very important work. 114 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: You know, legitimately life and death work. You know, working 115 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: with people who have been incarcerated, all of that. This 116 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: is important stuff and you know we only have so 117 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: much time in a day and so much time on 118 00:06:57,560 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: this world and so much energy that we that we 119 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: can spent. And so to see somebody like you going 120 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: through harassment campaigns, do you want to feel that this, 121 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 1: these kinds of campaigns are kind of deliberately meant to 122 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: distract you from this important work that you actually have 123 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: to do. You know, I have been through, I mean, 124 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: numerous very intense uh kind of onslaughts, Um, like in 125 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:25,679 Speaker 1: in different, different times in my life, for different reasons. 126 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: So different groups who want to attack me for different reasons. 127 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: and Um, I think the first time I went through 128 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: it really really it was really terrible. It's around the 129 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: time cereal came out actually, um, but it wasn't so 130 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: much related to cereals, related from the interfaith work I 131 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: did and I spent Um, I learned my lesson because 132 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: I spent about three months trying to respond to everything, 133 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: not realizing that how trolling works and how harassment works. Um. 134 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: Then I when I realized, first of all I was 135 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: I felt I was sick, I was exhausted, I was 136 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: physically I had gotten really sick over that time just 137 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: from the strain of it. Um. Then the realization hit 138 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: me that, you know, what they want me to do 139 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: is not to function. They want me to and they're 140 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: winning because I'm spending all my time, like you know, 141 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: it's like that whack a mole game, right, like trying 142 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: to respond to this thing and you responded this thing 143 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: and they come at you with another thing. I'm like, Oh, 144 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: this is brilliant. They're keeping me wrapped up in this 145 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: crazy and I'm wasting my time and my health and 146 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: my sanity Um and not doing my work. And so 147 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: now I always think about it like that. But like, 148 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: if this is preventing me from doing my work, they're 149 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: winning Um. And so a hundred percent of distraction. What 150 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: people who are rassing you online want to do is 151 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,959 Speaker 1: to make sure you cannot actually function. Yeah, all the 152 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: women that I talked to who faith, you know, intense harassment. 153 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: That's something that they talk about. That's something that a 154 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,719 Speaker 1: lot of their situations have in common that at one 155 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: point they, you know, they are trying to respond to 156 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: everything and really engaged and then they realize they're spending 157 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: all their time focusing on the harassment. So whatever the 158 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: thing is, whether it was justice work like you, or 159 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: act of his work or writing, they are spending more 160 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: time trying to respond to the trolls, which they will 161 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: never be able to satisfy because sort of the trip 162 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: of harassment, they're spending more time on that than they 163 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: are sort of doing the thing that is their purpose 164 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: and I believe that really is one of the the 165 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: purposes of this kind of harassment. It's to keep powerful women, or, quote, 166 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: mouthy women or women who you know can can accomplish something, 167 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: to keep it's to keep us from accomplishing whatever it 168 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: is that we're meant to be doing on this earth. 169 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: There's that, there's that aspect of it, and then there's 170 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: the aspect of they want you to like. They wanted 171 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: to drag you down to their level. They're they're punching up. 172 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: In almost every case they punching up. They want your attention, 173 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: they want relevance, so your attention gives them relevance. Otherwise 174 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: they are irrelevant. Essentially. That's so true. It's so true 175 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: and I know in your case I can't help up 176 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 1: wonder if part of the reason why some of the 177 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: folks who really have like an obsession with you and 178 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: your work, part of it is because you're very successful, 179 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: you're very effective at what you do, and that makes 180 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: them even more angry. You know, it is kind of 181 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: an attempt to drag you down to their level because 182 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: you're so successful, because they know you can be so effective. Yeah, 183 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's interesting. You know, I um most recently, 184 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 1: in the last couple of years, the attacks have been 185 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: coming from this one particular podcaster and he's he's actually 186 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: an incredibly successful podcaster, which is what's shocking about this 187 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: particular situation. Is, like, Dude, you he might be much 188 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 1: more successful in the sense of Um. I mean in 189 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: one metric, which is like, I think he probably makes 190 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: a lot more money than what me and my team 191 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: make doing the work that we do. But the metric 192 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: that's important for us is like the value of our work, 193 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 1: and the value of our work is, are we able 194 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: to help exonerate the people whose cases were working on 195 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: and Um and basically just be able to pay cover 196 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: our costs, that we can do it so it doesn't 197 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: cost anything to the defendant because for for most and 198 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: cars people, they can't afford, uh, the appeals, they can't 199 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: afford the reinvestigation, and we're able to cover those costs. So, 200 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: by that metric, my work is more, I would say, 201 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: much more meaningful. Um. Maybe that's mothersome to to some people, 202 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 1: but I can't say that I'm the most successful podcast 203 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: and in senses, like, we're not minting money over here. 204 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: You know we're not. We're not. Yeah, you know, sometimes 205 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: I wish the kind of work that you're producing was 206 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: valued in that same way. It can be a little 207 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: bit frustrating sometimes I'm like, man, I could be doing 208 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: like the kind of true crime podcast that you can 209 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: just knock out like in an hour or so and 210 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: just get online and chat with somebody about some case. 211 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: But our shows, for every hour that we air, we 212 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: were talking about hundreds of hours of prep of maybe 213 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,439 Speaker 1: two years lead time of invest two years of investigation 214 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: before we can air a case. So it's very, very intensive, 215 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 1: and but then the day that's what that's it's purposeful 216 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: and and that's what I can do. That's what I 217 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: do best. I don't do well what other people do right. 218 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,079 Speaker 1: I can't do to prompt comedy and I can't do 219 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: other things, but this is what I do. And so, 220 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: you know, as long as we're able to cover our 221 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: costs Um and provide this really as a service to 222 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: the people who those cases we're looking at, we're going 223 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: to continue to do it. Talking about this in terms 224 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: of being in the podcast industry, you know, one of 225 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,559 Speaker 1: the people who is waging UH targeted harassment campaign against 226 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: you is a very popular podcaster, Mike Rude and I 227 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 1: think that it's hard for me to watch as a like, 228 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: as a podcaster. It's hard for me to watch the 229 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: PODCAST industry and Ecosystems still support this. And you know, 230 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:36,959 Speaker 1: one of the things I saw on your twitter that 231 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: I think is so correct is like people need to 232 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: understand that if you listen to if you like, when 233 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: you listen to this podcast, this is what you're supporting. 234 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: I think it can be really easy for listeners to say, Oh, well, 235 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: I'm just listening to the show, I don't know what's 236 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 1: going on. You know, I don't, I'm not, I'm not 237 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: quote following whatever's happening. But really it's been hard to 238 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: see the silence, I would say, from the podcast industry 239 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: in terms of watching someone essentially harass a colleague. You know, 240 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: I think of all podcasters that's kind of in the 241 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: same you know, the same club, and a a kind of way, 242 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 1: it's been really hard. Yeah, you know, there, there, and 243 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: you know why, though, because, Um, and then you're right. 244 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: I mean, so we are. PODCASTING is a community, podcast 245 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: content creators. We are a community, and then you have 246 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 1: your genres. So the true crime community is, even as 247 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: a smaller subsect of that, and many of us are close. 248 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: We teach at their different conferences and conventions. We support 249 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: each other this work. We're listeners. We listened to each 250 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: other shows. Um. So what I know? Uh, what I 251 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 1: know for sure because we've we've people have confessed this 252 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: to be privately, they have said it publicly, they have 253 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: written about it. Is that the same person who I 254 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: think he's? I just think he's like a disturbed individual. Um. 255 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: Many of them are afraid to really be public because 256 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: when they have tried to push back publicly on any 257 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: of his day he will come after them and he 258 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: does have a very big show and he has um 259 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 1: a lot of fall wars and so he can really 260 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: crush the smaller shows by flooding them with one star reviews, 261 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: by harassing them into like leaving social media, Um, and 262 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: so a lot I've had people reach out and say, 263 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: I'm afraid to say anything, but I just want you 264 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 1: to know that you know I'm support you, but I 265 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: this guy scares me. He's done this to me before. 266 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: Like it was like so, Um, that's why. But there 267 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: are some folks who have like, in a very public way, 268 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: stepped up in the last couple of months and been 269 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: like enough is enough right, and and they have really 270 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: condemned his behavior and I appreciate that, but not everybody 271 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: can afford to and I completely understand them. Yeah, that's 272 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: so tough and I think you just articulated one of 273 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: the hallmarks of online harassment and abuse and coordinated harassment 274 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: campaigns is that it really has a silencing effect, not 275 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: just on the person that is targeted, but anyone who 276 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: might want to, you know, stick up for that person, 277 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: anyone who, you know, might want to challenge what's going on. 278 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: It's such a big silencing effect that I think that 279 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: we don't talk enough about that as a speech issue. 280 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: That the kind of people who, you know, we're saying like, 281 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: Oh gee, I don't want to be too outspoken because 282 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: I don't want what's happening to her to happen to me. 283 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: I don't want it to be me next. I can't 284 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: afford to have this kind of thing. So they don't 285 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: speak up or they just leave social media altogether or 286 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: they don't say the things that they actually want to say. 287 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: That is one of the hallmarks of online harassment campaign 288 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: that we just don't talk about, and truly we with 289 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: all of the you know, Rigamar role about free speech 290 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: and cancel culture. We need to start taking that more 291 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: seriously as a speech issue because, you know, if an 292 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: entire group of, you know, already marginalized contact creators feel 293 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: like they can't speak up and say what they want 294 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: to say because they're terrified of this person, one person, 295 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: like if that's that's that is not good and we 296 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: need to be talking about like perhaps we have, perhaps 297 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: it's a problem with our our kind of media and 298 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: digital media landscape, but also it's a wider problem about 299 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: how much space one person is a lot to take up. 300 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: How how much, how much that one person is allowed 301 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: to dictate this entire community. I mean, look, we we 302 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: saw this Um in as big as way as possible 303 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: with the former guy, the former guy who is in 304 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: the White House Um. So yeah, one person to have 305 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: a lot of power. They can be very destructive, one 306 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: person can be a complete wrecking ball, and that's what 307 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: this particular person is. He's a wrecking ball. But what's 308 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: really crazy about the whole thing is that he's mostly 309 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: wrecking himself right like in all of this as he's 310 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: scaring people and stuff, he's getting deep platforms, getting dropped 311 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: by sponsors, getting dropped by his Um, his his, his 312 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: different companies and uh, and at the end of the day, 313 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: you know, the rest of us are still going to 314 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: be invited and show up to two different spaces that, uh, 315 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: you know, relevant to our our work. And while he's 316 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: kind of been ostracized for years, so it's not just 317 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: you know, I'm a target. Um, I think I'm a 318 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: big target for him because I won't just take it 319 00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: and disappear. Um, and it's frustrating to him. But Um, 320 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: most people just kind of quietly, like, you know, Fade 321 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 1: into the background and so he stops attacking them after 322 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 1: a while. Um. And you know, for me also, what 323 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: I realized was, like what gives people like that fuel 324 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: is just attention. And so they're just star for attention 325 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 1: and I assume purpose and meaning their life and I 326 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: don't have the time to give that to them because 327 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: I got too much going on in my life. You know, 328 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: I have too much work that's actually has an impact 329 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: on people's lives that I got to do on a 330 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 1: time for it. Let's take a quick break and are back. 331 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: According to data from annesty International, women of color are 332 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: disproportionately targeted for online harassment and abuse, and we see 333 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: this playing out in all kinds of places. For instance, 334 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,239 Speaker 1: former President Donald Trump was known for lashing out at 335 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: reporters of all stripes. But it's worst both vitriolic comments 336 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 1: are always reserved for journalists who also happened to be 337 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: black women or women of color, like White House Correspondence 338 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: Yamichel Sendor, April Ryan and young, and that his behavior 339 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 1: towards them made them even bigger targets for abuse precisely 340 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: because they're women of color. Knowing this, it's not surprising that, 341 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: even though Mike has had issues with white male podcasters 342 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: in the past, he isn't selling merchandise referencing their work 343 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: on his website, and those men aren't being called out 344 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: specifically by name in his podcast official twitter bio, like 345 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: Robbia is. Robbia is far from the only podcaster who 346 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,360 Speaker 1: has criticized him. Yet Mike has not threatened to make 347 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 1: a daily podcast blaming those men if he's ever kicked 348 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 1: off social media, but he's threatened to do that to Robbia. 349 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 1: I also think part of it is that you're a 350 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: woman of color. You know, the data is very clear 351 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: that women like women of color. We are disproportionately targeted. 352 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: I think that, you know, we you had earlier that 353 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: he has gone after other podcasters, white man. He's not making, 354 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 1: you know, merchant based around their work. There are people, 355 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: there are certain kinds of people, we know exactly who 356 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: they are, that they cannot stand a woman of color, uh, 357 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: like having any kind of backbone. They want us to 358 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: be subservient, they want us to they want us to 359 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 1: be in our place. They want to put us in 360 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: our place. Um and yeah, I think that that that's 361 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: one of the biggest triggers for this guy and for 362 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: others like him. Is that. Who the hell does she 363 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: think she is? Why isn't she like, you know, getting 364 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: in her place where she needs to be? Um and 365 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: UH and you know, but what do you do? I mean, 366 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: like we've seen this happen on a national stage. We've 367 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: seen this happen with incredible black female correspondence and journalists. Um, 368 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 1: you know, coming from a presidential administration. So we've justn't 369 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: seen this happen in so many different ways. Um, and 370 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 1: I think that's really a big part of why I 371 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: am a particular target for this person. I think that's 372 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: so true. I think there's something about when a woman 373 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: of color is outspoken, where people look at us and say, 374 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: who does she think she is? Doesn't she know that 375 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: she's supposed to just lie down and take it or immediately, 376 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,199 Speaker 1: you know, fall all over self apologizing the fact that 377 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: you won't do that. I think it just it triggers 378 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: something very ugly inside of a certain kind of person. Definitely, 379 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: when these kinds of harassment campaigns, the kind of thing 380 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: that you've gone through, were happening, so many people and 381 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: institutions that actually have power do nothing, and I think 382 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 1: that that's another hallmark of this kind of harassment that 383 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: we see. You know, uh, so, like I was, you know, 384 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: on twitter. This person's podcast has a verified account. You know, 385 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: we know that D platforming is a very effective way 386 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 1: of curbing harassment, and yet, you know, social media platforms 387 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 1: seem to be doing nothing. You know, we see journalists 388 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: describe what's happening to you as a quote feud, as 389 00:20:58,240 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: if you as if you two are just sort of 390 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: had in some kind of a sparring match and that 391 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,199 Speaker 1: this is not a pretty intense and serious, coordinated online 392 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: harassment campaign against you. You know, what is it like 393 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: to see so many institutions and people with power really 394 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: do nothing to curb this when they could. I mean 395 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: it's not surprising. We've seen this so many times, especially 396 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: with women, and we've seen this in so many different Um, 397 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: like you know, different controversies I've taken place with women 398 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 1: getting HARASSD and and making it public, and you know 399 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:33,199 Speaker 1: it's uh, the gaslight you. So it's like if you 400 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: if I'm being attacked and harassed, whether it's in my 401 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: d M S, it's my emails, it's all coming from 402 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: the same source. However, it's happening. If I call attention 403 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: to it in order to get some kind of response 404 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: from these platforms, Um, then people say, well, why are that? 405 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: Then it becomes a few they frame it like it's 406 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: a feud and it's not a feud. It's me calling 407 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: attention to his behavior, Um, and if you don't see 408 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: anything and you just take it, I mean I guess 409 00:21:57,800 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: that's kind of what they want, just don't take and 410 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 1: take it. But these platforms, they don't really do anything. 411 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: What is effect, what has been more effective, is is 412 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 1: asking people to just report Um, certain posts and tweets 413 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: and stuff. Some get removed, some don't get removed. I 414 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: mean free speech first ament, is what it is. I 415 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: guess we have the legal right to be as ugly 416 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: as you want. I think I hit my um, I 417 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: kind of hit my limit when there were people, Um, 418 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 1: his followers and his mentions and he's like kind of encouraging. 419 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 1: He's encouraging people to go to like my speaking events, 420 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 1: to like find me in real life. Uh. And then 421 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: he had people saying things like hopefully she'll get murdered herself, 422 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: hopefully a non one. More then I was like this 423 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: has gone like too far, and that's when I really 424 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 1: that's when I finally kind of posted. I said I 425 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: have called on twitter and facebook to the platform him. 426 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 1: This is the kind of stuff he's saying and encouraging 427 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: and they won't. And if something happens to me or 428 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: my family, then there they know they also need to 429 00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: be held responsible. Yeah, I mean the kind of thing 430 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: that I've seen. I've seen, you know people. I'll see 431 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: people be like, Oh, well, she should just block him 432 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: if she doesn't like what he has to say. I mean, yeah, exactly, 433 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 1: you know. And it's like getting people to understand that 434 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 1: this is not just something that is happening like, quote unquote, 435 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,719 Speaker 1: on twitter, on the computer. I very genuinely sometimes worry 436 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: for your safety in real life and everything that we 437 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: know about online harassment. But even if it starts online, 438 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: it doesn't stay online and very often it's connected to 439 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,959 Speaker 1: real world violence. And so I am I when I 440 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: see the kinds of things that he's encouraging his followers 441 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: to do, I get very concerned for your actual safety. Yeah, yeah, 442 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: I've had my moments of concern. I mean I think, Um, 443 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 1: he it just takes one unhinged person to think, I 444 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: gotta do something about this, you know, especially because the 445 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 1: way he particularly frames it is, I mean this, it's such, 446 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 1: I mean, like you see, we've seen this technique unfold 447 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: like online, Um, like with the elections, right. So what 448 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 1: trump said was these people are harming our elections. What 449 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,919 Speaker 1: this guy says is this woman is shutting down my podcast. 450 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: I mean he's got an incredibly successful podcast. I'm not 451 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: shutting anything down. Um, he's continue to produce and I've 452 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: gotten messages from from people, from men, saying, Um, if you, if, 453 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: if he ends up losing his podcast because of you, 454 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,239 Speaker 1: I'm gonna come get you. kind of stuff for a podcast, right, like. So, 455 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: the way he's framing it is to basically target, is 456 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: to direct people's rage towards me, in case, like you know, 457 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 1: so they can like take out, take out revenge or something. 458 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: In case, like he you know, he stops making a show, 459 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: which is not gonna but Um, and on top of 460 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: which everything that he's lost in terms of sponsors and 461 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: it's it's been a percent him more. After a quick break, 462 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: let's get right back and do it. After my celebrated 463 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 1: International Women's Day by posting a really gross meme about 464 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: violence against women on social media, people in the podcast 465 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 1: community spoke up and, wondering sort in scales, network eventually 466 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 1: announced they were partying ways with the show. Mike vowed 467 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: to keep the show running without the support of the network, 468 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: tweeting anything that was ad supported. is over now because 469 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 1: of Aaron Manky from Lare and Rabbia from undisclosed, who 470 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: led this boycott against me and my company because they 471 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: didn't like certain things I said. But that tweet pretty 472 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: conveniently leaves out any responsibility for the consequences of his 473 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: own actions, like it's his own actions that have caused 474 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 1: it and he won't take responsibility for his behavior. So, yeah, 475 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: I mean, but there's only so much. You know, I 476 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 1: did report Um that. I did report the harassment to 477 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: law enforcement, but you know, we also don't have very 478 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: strong cyber stalking laws and stuff in this country. There's 479 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 1: only so much you can do to protect yourself and 480 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 1: other than that it's kind of like, okay, try to 481 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: keep my family safe, you know, got got security cameras up, 482 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: got alarm system things like that. But what can I do? If, 483 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: you know, once Covid is lifted and I'm out in 484 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: the public again, I always did a lot of traveling 485 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: and speaking and and uh, and, and I have a 486 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: new book coming out next year and I'll be traveling 487 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: for that and it is what it is. I can't 488 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 1: like hide right. Yeah, and it goes back to what 489 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier. Of this is preventing you 490 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 1: from living your life, from doing your work, from making 491 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 1: your living. You know, especially as kind of public contact 492 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,400 Speaker 1: creators like that kind of thing, you do have to 493 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: have a fair amount of like public stuff, whether it's 494 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: appearances or are speaking engagements or conferences or panels or whatever, 495 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 1: to to do that. And so the way that this 496 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: is really like would really make it difficult for you 497 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 1: to be able to do that without wondering in the 498 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: back of your head like, is today the day that 499 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: some you know, some listener of his, takes matters into 500 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,239 Speaker 1: his own hands? It's preventing you from being able to 501 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: live life the way that you want to live your life, 502 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: and I think that that's something that people really forget 503 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: about this kind of harassment, is that it's not just online, 504 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: it's in real life as well. Oh, it is, I 505 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: mean a percent, I um. But at the same time, 506 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 1: I mean, like you know, and I've had to process 507 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 1: through this with my own lawyer and and people who 508 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 1: are close to me and Um, that I turned to 509 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: for advice. But you know, it's actually not gonna happen. 510 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: I'M NOT gonna change the way I live my life, Um, 511 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 1: other than just taking some general precautions. I'm going to continue, 512 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: going to continue to the work, I'M gonna continue to 513 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: travel and speak. I mean I I speak to a 514 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 1: lot of law schools and law firms and Um, and 515 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: universities about this work, and that's the kind of stuff 516 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: that helps scale it up. You know, you get people 517 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: to support the work, you get students saying I want 518 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 1: to go to law school now Um, and so, yeah, 519 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: I'm going to continue to do it at the end 520 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 1: of the day. Um, and it is what it is. 521 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,719 Speaker 1: I mean, like there's just you know, I like I'm 522 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:58,959 Speaker 1: also a religious person. I'm a person of faith and 523 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: I firmly you that when your time is written, it's written. 524 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:04,719 Speaker 1: What it's supposed to come, it is supposed to come. So, 525 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I mean like there's this kind of 526 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 1: no avoiding it. So what, it's gonna Happen. It's gonna Happen, 527 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 1: but you know, but of course you don't want it 528 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: to happen because it's something as ridiculous and stupid as 529 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 1: something like this. Yeah, yeah, and I think something that 530 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: you said is so touching, knowing that you are going 531 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,400 Speaker 1: to continue to inspire so many it's like you're building 532 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: this little army of people who are inspired to following 533 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,959 Speaker 1: your footsteps and following your legacy and continue to create 534 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 1: that kind of justice. You know, the impact that you 535 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: will have on so many people is so big and 536 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: your voice can be so big and the idea that 537 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: this one asshole could stop it is obviously he couldn't. Right, 538 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,239 Speaker 1: like you're like the impact that you can have, that 539 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: you have is so much bigger than anything that this 540 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: person could ever, you know, dream up to try to 541 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: stop it. I feel yeah, you know, I kind of 542 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: laugh about it sometimes when he he posts things about 543 00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: a nons case or other aspects of work and I'm like, 544 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: I'm an attorney, I've been doing this for like twenty 545 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: odd years. I have I have a team of attorneys 546 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: I work with, I work with the innocence project across 547 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:12,239 Speaker 1: the country on cases, and this completely unqualified, you know, 548 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: White Guy, rightly, like this completely qualified guy, thinks that 549 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: he has the same like skill set, or or even 550 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: has the same like he's he's so entitled that he 551 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: feels like his opinion is equal to my expertise. I mean, 552 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: like really Um and I think that prior drives me 553 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: crazy too. I mean, like is the fact that I 554 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: want to be like, listen, go to law school, spent 555 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: about ten, fifteen years doing innocence work and then let's 556 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: talk about this case, like you know, you have a 557 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: completely uninformed opinion. You're you can't come close to like 558 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: my you know, the work that I do, because you 559 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: don't have the experience. I'm sure he's great at what 560 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: he does. I can't do what he does. I will 561 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: never do what he does and he can't do what 562 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,239 Speaker 1: I do. As simple as that. And so it's just 563 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: like apples and oranges. And I think what it is 564 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: as he thinks, oh, she's got a true crime podcast. 565 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: My podcast as a means to an end. Um. The 566 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: whole point of the podcast is I could end the 567 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: podcast tomorrow as long as I could find a way 568 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: to financially support the work of of helping people get 569 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: back in court right WHO's been cars for years. The 570 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: podcast is a way to do that. That's not the work. 571 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: The work is the other work that I do outside 572 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: of the recording studio. Yeah, that's something I love about 573 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: your work is that it's not just so many folks 574 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: like and not to not to crap on them, but 575 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: the work begins and ends in the podcast studio and 576 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: you are out there making like, doing the actual work, 577 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: making the actual difference. And and I love it. Chose too. 578 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,719 Speaker 1: I listen to them all the time. I Love I 579 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: love those kinds of I love all kinds of shows. 580 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: I mean that's you know, I love investigative stuff, but 581 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: this is what I do. And so, uh, you know, 582 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: what I think is kind of interesting is like Um, 583 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: his he's calling on those followers and other people who 584 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: attack me too, to try and stop, like I want 585 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: to be like you really want to, you really want 586 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: to prevent a person from doing the kind of work 587 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: I'm doing. Like that in itself is like almost evil. 588 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: It's like if I was handing out water bottles at 589 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: the border and somebody's like no, I want to shoot 590 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: them all out of your hand, like you want to 591 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: prevent me from doing like work that's going to change 592 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: people's lives. Like yes, it's really crappy, right. And because, yeah, 593 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: you're doing this, this important justice work, and I think 594 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: that all the people who see what's happening, who might 595 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: otherwise be inspired to follow in your footsteps and do 596 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: this kind of work, how many of them are going 597 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 1: to see this and be like, oh well, I don't 598 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: want to do that. You know, it's like you're preventing 599 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,719 Speaker 1: the spread of justice in the world by by, you know, 600 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: behaving in this way. But, you know, look up, he 601 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: can only he and others can only harass me if 602 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: I allow myself to like feel harassed in some extent Um. 603 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: And it was only in the time when I felt 604 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: like this is getting kind of dangerous, some of the 605 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: rhetorics getting dangerous that I really felt stress over it, um, 606 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: but then I was like, my due diligence is that. 607 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: I've told my attorney, I've notified the platforms, I've put 608 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: everybody else on notice. Anybody who follows me knows now. Right. So, 609 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: others are hundreds of, if not thousands, of people are 610 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: watching him, Um, watching and documenting every because he does 611 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: have a history of like posting things and deleting them, 612 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 1: as if things disappear from the Internet. Um, and so 613 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: I've done my due diligence. That's that's all I can do, 614 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: and now I have to get back to my life. 615 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: I also have kids, I've got a husband, I've got cats, 616 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 1: I've got elderly parents, I have a garden, I have 617 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: things to take care of. I don't want to time 618 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: for this. Absolutely. I mean that's a great question. How 619 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 1: do you take care of yourself? How do you make 620 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: sure that you know you're the things that matter in 621 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: your life are nurtured and protected during all of this? 622 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: I mean, look, when you're working, mom, I can't be 623 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: like hey, kids, I'm having a bad day. You're just 624 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: gonna have to feed yourselves and, you know, drive yourself 625 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: to school. Um, there are things that are nonegotiable that 626 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: you have to take care of every single day. In 627 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: a way, just having that they're like, Um, it's a 628 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: good distraction from like this meaningless stuff off that's happening 629 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: online in many instances. So I I feel taken I 630 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 1: feel like I I'm taking care of myself when I 631 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: get my work done, when I you know, it's it's 632 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: I write words a day, when I hit my words 633 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: a day, uh, and I've made sure that, you know, 634 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: my family's got food for today, or I know we're 635 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: getting take out, or I've made the plans Um, and 636 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: my plants aren't dying and my parents. You know, as 637 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: long as I'm checking the boxes of the things that 638 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: I need to do for the people are important to me, 639 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: then that's taking care of myself as well. That is 640 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,479 Speaker 1: how I take care of myself. That's so important. So 641 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: how can folks who might be out there listening either 642 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: support you during this time or support the criminal justice 643 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 1: work that you're involved in now? Um, well, you know, 644 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 1: I just think it's important that, look, we do have 645 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: free speech in this country, but that means that we 646 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 1: allow hate speech. I mean the First Amendment is actually 647 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: created to protect the worst kind of speech possible. It's 648 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: not created to protect the speech everybody loves. Right so, 649 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: but we also have to be able to identify and 650 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: call out hate speech. So what I would say, just 651 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 1: to help create a safer space, Um, in any kind 652 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,880 Speaker 1: of public discourse, in the media, in social media, is 653 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 1: to call out hate speech. This is hate speech. What 654 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: you're doing and saying is hate speech. Report hate speech 655 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 1: you know and then let the platforms decide what they're 656 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 1: gonna do with it. That's one way to make a 657 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: more safer space for all of us online and even 658 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 1: in real life. Um. But in order to support the 659 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 1: justice work, I think you know the cases that we 660 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: do it undisclosed. We've covered about twenty five cases from 661 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 1: different parts of the country, just listening to the cases, 662 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 1: reaching out to the defendants. You can find a lot 663 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 1: of information online, writing to them, leoching out to your 664 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:48,280 Speaker 1: local I mean my work is pretty focused on innocence work, 665 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: but criminal justice reform is much brought is needed in 666 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: a much more brighter way. But certainly you can reach 667 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,479 Speaker 1: out to your local innocence Um chapter is to ask 668 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: how you can support them. But believe there's a lot 669 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 1: of incarcerated people behind bars who have not had visitors 670 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 1: and years, who have nobody to write them, who have 671 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: nobody to call. So in that way, non is incredibly blessed. 672 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 1: I mean he's never not had family support and friends 673 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: and people to visit him and love him, but there's 674 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,320 Speaker 1: so many people who have nobody and so just finding 675 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: organizations that can connect you to those kinds of people, 676 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 1: writing letters once or twice a month, you can change 677 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 1: somebody's life like that. Can you tell us a little 678 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,240 Speaker 1: bit about the upcoming book? Oh yeah, it's a complete 679 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: departure from any of the work that I am known for. 680 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 1: It's called fatty, fatty boom boom and it's a memoir. 681 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:36,800 Speaker 1: Fatty fatty boom boom was one of my many childhood 682 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: nicknames because I've always struggled with late issues Um. So 683 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: the memoirs about food, fat and family and I think 684 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,759 Speaker 1: it will resonate with a lot of people, a lot 685 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 1: of people who have spent their lives struggling with Um, 686 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 1: who love food and struggle with weight and have to 687 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 1: deal with family. I love food, man, what can I do? 688 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, so and my family loves food and 689 00:35:58,560 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 1: they want to feed me, but also they want me 690 00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: to is weight. It's like never kind of works out, Um. So, 691 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: but it was, it was it was a fun right. 692 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: It was fun to write it because it was very 693 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: different than, like, some of the more serious stuff that 694 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 1: I do. Our voices matter and we shouldn't have to 695 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 1: put up with a digital landscape that just allows for 696 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: our voices to be drowned out by harassment. I know 697 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: it can be hard to speak up, to keep joining 698 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: the conversation, to keep using our voices, but that's exactly 699 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: what harassers want, for us to just shut up and 700 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 1: go away. And even as she's facing a flood of 701 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: threats and harassment, Robbia hopes that other women, especially women 702 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,439 Speaker 1: of color, won't let this kind of thing stop them. 703 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,360 Speaker 1: The only message I would want to leave with, especially 704 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: to Um women of color, to people who are marginalized 705 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: in any way Um in our society, is not to 706 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 1: let people push you out of spaces. Don't ever let 707 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 1: it happen. Just don't let it happen. Stand your ground. 708 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 1: If you've enjoyed this podcast, please help us grow by subscribing. 709 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: Got A story about an interesting thing in tech or 710 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: just want to say hi. We'd love to hear from 711 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: you at hello at Tango Dot Com. Disinformed is brought 712 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:12,720 Speaker 1: to you by there are no girls on the Internet. 713 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,240 Speaker 1: It's a production of IHEART radio and unbossed creative Jonathan 714 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 1: Strickland is our executive producer. Tory Harrison is our supervising 715 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:23,839 Speaker 1: producer and engineer. Michaelmato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, 716 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,760 Speaker 1: bridget tod. For more great podcasts, check out the IHEART 717 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: radio APP apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.