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Speaker 1: Welcome to had to Money.

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Speaker 2: I'm Joel and I am Matt.

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Speaker 1: And today we're talking the Art of the sabbatical with

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Speaker 1: Katie North.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, when most folks hear the word sabbatical, I think

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Speaker 2: their mind probably goes to, like a professor who's earned

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Speaker 2: tenure at a prestigious university, who's going to use that

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Speaker 2: time to write a really interesting book. Or maybe your

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Speaker 2: values are more Judeo Christian based, and so maybe you

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Speaker 2: think of a period of rest after seven years. You

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Speaker 2: think of that levitical prescription. And while that might be

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Speaker 2: accurate for some folks, I think our guest today would

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Speaker 2: say that sabbaticals don't have to be that serious or

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Speaker 2: that formal. But on the other hand, they're also not

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Speaker 2: just an extended vacation where you're sipping pincolatas on the beach.

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Speaker 2: We are joined by CFP and investment advisor Katie North.

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Speaker 2: She is the author of the Art of the Sabbatical,

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Speaker 2: and she's going to share why taking a sabbatical, why

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Speaker 2: it might be more of a reality for everyone who's

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Speaker 2: listening today, not just for the elite class. Katie, thank

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Speaker 2: you so much for taking the time to speak with us.

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Speaker 1: Today.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for having me, Katie.

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Speaker 1: The first question we ask everyone who comes on the

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Speaker 1: show is what do you like to spend money on?

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Speaker 1: And Matt and I we're drinking a nice craft beer here.

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Speaker 1: That's kind of something we like to splur John, but hey,

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Speaker 1: it's okay because we're still saving and investing for the future.

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Speaker 1: Do you have something like that in your life.

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Speaker 4: I love a good spa day.

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Speaker 3: I prioritize having a monthly massage for sure, and so

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Speaker 3: that's definitely something that is important to me.

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Speaker 2: I feel like, Joel, you have experimented with the idea

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Speaker 2: of maybe joining like one of the membership sort of clubs,

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Speaker 2: have you or is that something though?

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Speaker 1: I do like to get message and I think in

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Speaker 1: an ideal world, I would do what Katie does and

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Speaker 1: I'd go once at least once a month, but I

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Speaker 1: have not made that as regular as I'd like to.

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Speaker 1: Is this somebody that comes to your house, Kate, your house, Katie,

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Speaker 1: or is this somewhere that you go, Okay.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, she comes to my house. It's it's very nice.

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Speaker 3: She's excellent, does the really nice deep tissue.

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Speaker 4: It's perfect.

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Speaker 1: Are you going sixty minutes or ninety minutes. I feel

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Speaker 1: like you gotta go ninety am I wrong.

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Speaker 4: Ninety minutes when you're doing the deep tess, I gotta

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Speaker 4: do it.

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Speaker 1: Get if you're getting all, you're making it happen anyway,

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Speaker 1: just go full ninety.

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Speaker 2: I'm not gonna lie. I feel I feel relaxed just

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Speaker 2: listening to you talk about those.

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Speaker 1: I will say, for the cheap person out there, there

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Speaker 1: are places that specialize in in feet. And there's a

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Speaker 1: place that my wife and I like to go to.

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Speaker 1: We don't go very often, but they do feet and

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Speaker 1: then they'll finish on like the head, neck, and shoulders,

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Speaker 1: and I swear for like an hour, you pay thirty

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Speaker 1: bucks or something like that. It's it's minimally expensive. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if they exist everywhere, but we have him

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Speaker 1: in our town at least.

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Speaker 2: Let's get Let's pivot to sabbaticals, Katie, Can you, like

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Speaker 2: I guess, basically define a sabbatical, like what is it?

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Speaker 2: And why are you so keen on them that you

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Speaker 2: wrote a book about them?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: So I'm a sabbatical advocate by accident. I took a

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Speaker 3: sabbatical back in twenty fifteen, and I did not know

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Speaker 3: then how much of a transformative experience it was going

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Speaker 3: to be for me. I actually hold it up as

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Speaker 3: one of the most pivotal and meaningful times in my life,

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Speaker 3: and it really gave me the courage and the confidence

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Speaker 3: to launch my financial planning business, which is now almost

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Speaker 3: ten years old. I think of a sabbatical, it doesn't

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Speaker 3: have to be you know, a specific amount of time,

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Speaker 3: or you do a specific thing like travel the world.

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Speaker 3: It's really just an intentional break from work. And most

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Speaker 3: of the time, I would say your first sabbatical is

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Speaker 3: often about burnout recovery. That was certainly my mo and

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Speaker 3: what I needed it was burnout recovery time. But you know,

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Speaker 3: there are a lot of peop people out there who

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Speaker 3: are doing sabbaticals with some sort of frequency in their lives,

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Speaker 3: like every few years or you know, I've talked to

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Speaker 3: a lot of people who are offering up kind of

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Speaker 3: like living their life more like a sabbatical, and so

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Speaker 3: they're not necessarily having to take direct time off from work,

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Speaker 3: but they're incorporating reset and recharge time into their days

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Speaker 3: and weeks so that they're not you know, ultimately burning

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Speaker 3: themself out to a point where they need to take

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Speaker 3: an extended.

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Speaker 4: Break from work.

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Speaker 3: So there's a lot of ways that this can look,

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Speaker 3: and you know, everyone's kind of unique and how they

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Speaker 3: approach it.

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Speaker 1: So talk to us about how your first sabbatical came

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Speaker 1: about and why do you credit that time with essentially

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Speaker 1: the fruition of the business.

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Speaker 2: That you run.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So at the time of my life, I was

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Speaker 3: finishing up my MBA program. I was doing that part

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Speaker 3: time while also working full time, and my job at

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Speaker 3: the time had me going back and forth between DC

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Speaker 3: and New York, and.

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Speaker 4: So it was a lot of travel, it was a

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Speaker 4: lot of.

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Speaker 3: Always on energy, and I think towards the end of

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Speaker 3: my MBA I started realizing, you know, the path that

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Speaker 3: might be laid out for me at my current job

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Speaker 3: was not There wasn't like a career ladder to grow

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Speaker 3: on my company called a rock wall, and so they

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Speaker 3: they sort of didn't feel like there was a lot

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Speaker 3: of support in terms of what they were going to

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Speaker 3: offer me after I finished this big big to do,

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Speaker 3: like getting another degree, sort of a thing you'd.

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Speaker 1: Like free solo Alex Hanold that job.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, and so you know, I was faced with

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Speaker 3: it's like I had to move to New York or

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Speaker 3: nothing like that, was that that was the only opportunity

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Speaker 3: that existed for me, and so I just started looking

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Speaker 3: at that and also feeling just the overwhelm of, you

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Speaker 3: know what the culmination of all this meant, and felt

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Speaker 3: really burned out. I mean, I you know, I think

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Speaker 3: I was. I was getting sick quite often. I was

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Speaker 3: pretty just sort of mad and upset a lot, like

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Speaker 3: little things would sort of set me off, and I

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Speaker 3: knew that really the only way to stop that spinning

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Speaker 3: in my head was just to.

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Speaker 4: Stop it all and take a break.

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Speaker 3: And I actually made the decision to do this pretty

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Speaker 3: much on a whim. Like I walked in one morning

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Speaker 3: and I was really upset about something that had happened

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Speaker 3: the day before, and I said, you know what, I

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Speaker 3: just I cannot do this anymore.

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Speaker 4: I just can't. And so I put in my notice.

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Speaker 3: And this happens at a lot of corporate jobs, where

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Speaker 3: they sort of when you decide to leave, they sort

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Speaker 3: of treat it like.

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Speaker 4: They make you feel like you're getting fired.

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Speaker 3: So it's like I basically put in my notice and

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Speaker 3: within an hour, you know, HR was doing their exit

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Speaker 3: interview with me. They didn't want to have me stay

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Speaker 3: on for two weeks because when you work for a

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Speaker 3: global news organization like I was, they don't want people

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Speaker 3: to like publish bogus headlines on the way out and

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Speaker 3: things like that. So I knew that going in, but

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Speaker 3: it's still was sort of like a gut punch, you know,

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Speaker 3: like I'm the one doing this and you guys are

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Speaker 3: making me feel like I'm the one getting fired. But

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Speaker 3: you know, that's sort of an aside. I think, you know,

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Speaker 3: some people may not have that exit experience, just depending

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Speaker 3: on where they are working.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, so I sat that day.

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Speaker 3: I sat in the park with a friend and we

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Speaker 3: just sort of daydreamed about, like, you know, what I

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Speaker 3: could do, And I didn't have a plan. I literally

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Speaker 3: just dropped everything and stopped without much of a plan

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Speaker 3: at all. And so that was the start of kind

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Speaker 3: of my reset.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So one of the things that you said a

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Speaker 2: little bit ago, you mentioned too how some folks incorporate

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Speaker 2: more of like a rhythm of daily or even sort

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Speaker 2: of weekly rests or times of restoration. Talk about that,

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Speaker 2: like what about just actually working less instead of taking

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Speaker 2: this massive extended time off, Like what if someone was

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Speaker 2: able to shift from working fifty five hours a week

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Speaker 2: down to thirty hours a week, like could that have

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Speaker 2: a similar impact or do you think that folks need

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Speaker 2: this extended, hardcore total absence of work.

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Speaker 4: In their lives, You know, I think it depends on

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Speaker 4: the person.

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Speaker 3: I think for me, if I had just found another job,

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Speaker 3: maybe one that didn't require as many hours, I don't

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Speaker 3: think I would have learned the lessons I needed to

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Speaker 3: learn about who I am when I'm not working, and

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Speaker 3: about how I was using busyness to sort of fuel

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Speaker 3: like self esteem. Honestly, in me, I would you know,

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Speaker 3: business and achievement were sort of fueling self esteem for me,

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Speaker 3: and I don't that was the unhealthy part for me

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Speaker 3: that if I had just kept working or pivoted, I

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Speaker 3: don't think I would have learned those lessons.

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Speaker 4: But not everybody.

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Speaker 3: Maybe there's a lot of people out there who maybe

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Speaker 3: don't need to learn those lessons. Hopefully, and you know,

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Speaker 3: certainly spending some time just reevaluating where work is in

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Speaker 3: your life and the priority that you place in your

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Speaker 3: life is a good way to get some more balance back,

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Speaker 3: and perhaps you can do it without having to take

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Speaker 3: the full time off like I did.

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Speaker 4: I took eight nine months off.

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Speaker 1: Wow, Yeah, that's a long time. Do you think that

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Speaker 1: sabbaticals that you talked about your work culture and I mean,

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Speaker 1: do you think they're more necessary in twenty twenty five

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Speaker 1: than they were let's say, decades ago because of the

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Speaker 1: nature of work and maybe the invasiveness. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think about even laws in Australia right to tamp down

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Speaker 1: on employers being able to reach employees after hours. And

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Speaker 1: sometimes it does feel like, you know, what, how many

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Speaker 1: hours am I actually working in a week? It's hard

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Speaker 1: to even come up with a number because it feels

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Speaker 1: like work is all encompassing. I'm not saying that like personally,

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Speaker 1: but I think a lot of people feel that way.

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Speaker 1: So do you think it's I don't know, sabbaticals are

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Speaker 1: more necessary these days because of the invasive nature of work?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I mean I think a couple of things are happening right,

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Speaker 3: Like we've moved almost to a fully knowledge based workforce.

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Speaker 3: Like we do knowledge based work, we're not making widgets

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Speaker 3: and producing items where it's thought work and it takes

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Speaker 3: a lot out of us. It's about creativity, it's about

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Speaker 3: management of people, it's about thought leadership and writing, and

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Speaker 3: I think COVID ninet team helped crystallize what's most important

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Speaker 3: for people.

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Speaker 4: And you know, working sixty plus hours.

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Speaker 3: For a company that might go through downsizing and lay

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Speaker 3: us off next year is not it, especially when you

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Speaker 3: know you might be able to solve problems at work

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Speaker 3: in your dreams literally because you take the time and

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Speaker 3: rest and your brain.

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Speaker 4: Says, oh, I've got the solution.

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Speaker 3: But you don't get credit for that when you're not

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Speaker 3: sitting at your desk with your green light on, you know,

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Speaker 3: on your teams.

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Speaker 4: Or on your zoom right.

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Speaker 3: And so I think more and more of us now,

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Speaker 3: just in these times, are exploring alternative work arrangements, not

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Speaker 3: just physical location and the flexibility of where we work,

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Speaker 3: but how we utilize time off and where you know,

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Speaker 3: where we're working, and how on we have to be

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Speaker 3: while we're working, depending on the type of role that

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Speaker 3: we have. And this flexibility and this freedom is almost

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Speaker 3: being held up as more valuable than you know, even

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Speaker 3: the salary or the title or.

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Speaker 4: You know, how many people you manage.

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Speaker 3: This flexibility is kind of like the new importance that

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Speaker 3: we're seeing in work, and yeah, it's I think we're

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Speaker 3: all going to need a lot more time off in

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Speaker 3: the future, just based on the nature of how work

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Speaker 3: is and this whole idea of having like metrics at work,

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Speaker 3: like key performance indicators. Oftentimes they are fully based on

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Speaker 3: what once was widget making, you know, like making cars

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Speaker 3: on a line at Ford. You know, we created all

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Speaker 3: these efficiency devices for managing employees, and it's it's hard

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Speaker 3: to apply that to the knowledge based economy, but yet

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Speaker 3: companies are trying to. And that tends to help us

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Speaker 3: feel like we're a lot less human and there's no

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Speaker 3: room for the creativity, which can't often be done on

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Speaker 3: quite the same timeline that companies want.

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Speaker 4: It to be done on.

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Speaker 2: All right, So tell me what makes a sabbatical impactful,

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Speaker 2: like you talked about for you, I guess your initial

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Speaker 2: or your first experience with it was to recover from burnout.

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Speaker 2: But what are some of the other benefits that folks

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Speaker 2: are able to receive, like from taking a sabbatical, from

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Speaker 2: taking some time off, And I guess, how can folks

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Speaker 2: do that efficiently? Like how can folks get the most

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Speaker 2: bang for their buck as they're trying to, you know,

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Speaker 2: reap the rewards and the benefits from that sabbatical.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think.

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Speaker 3: You know, sabbaticals aren't just some glorifly glitz and glam break.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's a lot that you can do or

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Speaker 3: maybe more importantly not it's.

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Speaker 2: Not just spaw days where you're getting your back rund.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, on a work break, you know, I think

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Speaker 3: resting and recharging is the primary goal and the primary focus.

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Speaker 4: You know, a lot of people tend.

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Speaker 3: To, especially if it's their first sabbatical, they maybe they

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Speaker 3: would have a tendency to try to busy your way

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Speaker 3: through the work break. You know, if you have several

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Speaker 3: weeks off in a row, you might think, well, there's

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Speaker 3: all these things, these projects, these the stuff around the

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Speaker 3: house that I haven't been able to do because I've

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Speaker 3: been working so much. Maybe I should just do X,

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Speaker 3: Y and Z and this and that and the other.

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Speaker 3: And that can be a dangerous route because it starts

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Speaker 3: to feel a lot more like work when you've got

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Speaker 3: this long to do list while on sabbatical. And so

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm often advocating for people to do less

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Speaker 3: while on their work break, but you know, the main.

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Speaker 4: Goal is still helpful.

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Speaker 3: It's still helpful to have like a main purpose or

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Speaker 3: a goal while you're on break. And I've certainly spoke

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Speaker 3: with and coached a lot of people who've done lots

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Speaker 3: of awesome things while on their work break, you know,

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Speaker 3: finishing up a dissertation, taking stock of what they want

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Speaker 3: in their career, maybe helping out an ailing family member,

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Speaker 3: finding ways to practice what eventual retirement.

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Speaker 4: Would actually look like can be a really valuable way

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Speaker 4: to spend time. Other people cross train.

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Speaker 3: Or volunteer so they might learn new skills that they've

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Speaker 3: always wanted to learn, do something kind of creative, or

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Speaker 3: volunteer in a way that is meaningful or impactful for them.

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Speaker 3: And so there's just lots of things other than the normal,

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Speaker 3: like I'm going to take a sabbatical and travel the world, old.

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Speaker 4: Kind of approach that you might see on social media.

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Speaker 1: Well, and with the traveling the world approach, you're talking

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Speaker 1: about reducing your income, increasing your expenses.

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Speaker 2: So it's the whole other side of things that we'll, yeah,

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Speaker 2: we'll probably get to you later on episode. Might be

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Speaker 2: harder to have a longer sabbatical if you're trying to

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Speaker 2: jet set around the world. What if you have a partner,

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Speaker 2: you're married, you have kids, how do you think about

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Speaker 2: I'm just trying to like mentally think through if I

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Speaker 2: go home tonight and at dinner, I'm like, honey, take

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Speaker 2: it a sabbatical. And how that conversation goes down and

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Speaker 2: she's like, wait, do you want me to keep going

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Speaker 2: to work?

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Speaker 1: Like how's this? How's this going to function? How would

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Speaker 1: you approach that conversation? And I don't know, should husband

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Speaker 1: and wife or you know, married couple, should they say

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Speaker 1: let's let's overlap, let's both take time off together, or

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Speaker 1: should we do it separately?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I mean I wrote a whole chapter on this in

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Speaker 3: my book How to Support a Spouse on a Sabbatical,

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Speaker 3: because my spouse and I also looked at that and

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Speaker 3: kind of navigate did it He did not take a

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Speaker 3: sabbatical when I took mine, and then later he took

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Speaker 3: a sabbatical and I did not, And that worked for us,

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Speaker 3: it was just fine. But for other people you may

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Speaker 3: want to try to figure out a way to coordinate it,

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Speaker 3: especially if you've got kids and you want to travel

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Speaker 3: with your kids and make sure that you know everybody

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Speaker 3: can enjoy themselves and certainly everybody's going to be a

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Speaker 3: little bit different. But I think the prime directive here

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Speaker 3: is to really open up the communication not just on

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Speaker 3: the oh, what are we going to do front or

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Speaker 3: who's going to do what front, but also just in

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Speaker 3: the sort of money anxiety front, because you're bound to

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Speaker 3: in a couple, there's bound to be one person who's

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Speaker 3: sort of the money anxious person versus the person who's like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: we'll figure it out, you know, and it's going to

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Speaker 3: be more important, even more important, I think, while on

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Speaker 3: sabbatical to get on the same page and do frequent

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Speaker 3: money check ins so you can as you see money

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Speaker 3: dwindling intentionally, because that's the purpose for the money is

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Speaker 3: to spend it on, you know, giving yourself a work break.

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Speaker 4: As you see that money dwindling.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't create this undo anxiety and pressure, because the

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Speaker 3: worst thing that can happen is for the spouse who

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Speaker 3: is continuing to work to put undue pressure on the

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Speaker 3: person who's on sabbatical, either to get another job, to

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Speaker 3: get off their button, do X y Z, or you know,

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Speaker 3: to take them away from the journey that they are

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Speaker 3: on themselves.

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Speaker 4: Right sure, and it's and it's so tempting, right.

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Speaker 3: I Mean, when my husband went on work break, he

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Speaker 3: was also burned out and literally, you know, stuff at

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Speaker 3: being languishing around the house, little projects and things, and I,

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Speaker 3: you know, I felt like I wanted him to do

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Speaker 3: some of that stuff, and so I was really trying

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Speaker 3: to get him to do it.

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Speaker 4: And he basically told me, he's like, you know what,

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Speaker 4: this is too much pressure for me.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, you know what, actually, thanks for

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Speaker 3: being honest about it, and I'm gonna let go of

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Speaker 3: this a little bit and let go of the honeydew

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Speaker 3: stuff and let you discover in your own way what

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Speaker 3: this is going to look like for you. But you know,

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Speaker 3: it's like that those conversations happen every day among couples,

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Speaker 3: and that this navigation it becomes even more complicated when

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Speaker 3: one continues to work and the other doesn't.

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Speaker 1: What what was the sabbatical like for your husband with

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Speaker 1: any eureka moments or what did he walk away from

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Speaker 1: that experience with?

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Speaker 3: You know, his big thing was he knew he thought

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Speaker 3: like this time off is just going to be so

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Speaker 3: luxurious and recharging, but he actually found that he needed

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Speaker 3: more kind of interaction with people and than he was

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Speaker 3: he maybe thought because he's an introvert. And so his

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Speaker 3: big discovery was like, you know, I don't know if

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Speaker 3: I'm ever going to fully retire retire, I may always

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Speaker 3: want to be engaged in some form or fashion with

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Speaker 3: work or mentorship or teaching, and so he you know,

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Speaker 3: that's kind of his big been his big focus post sabbaticals,

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Speaker 3: figuring out how he can incorporate more of that into

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Speaker 3: his work life. He's a you know, computer science person

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Speaker 3: of soft or developer, so there's the production of software

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Speaker 3: that is his primary, you know focus. But there's a

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Speaker 3: lot now that he's been in his career while it's

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Speaker 3: like this mentorship piece has bubbled up as an important

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Speaker 3: thing for him.

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Speaker 2: That's pretty cool. Yeah, And I guess it depends on

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Speaker 2: the couple as to whether or not you coordinate those

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Speaker 2: sabbaticals to where and depending on what your goals are, right,

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Speaker 2: like you said, it's hard to I don't know, maybe

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Speaker 2: it's not too hard to go on some world some

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Speaker 2: world travel by yourself. Depends on the couple. But I

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Speaker 2: could also see where coordinating that so that you are

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Speaker 2: able to take that time off together, how there's a

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Speaker 2: benefit there. But then on the opposite end of the

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Speaker 2: spectrum to be able to alternate if you are maybe

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Speaker 2: a little more money anxious and you're a little concerned

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Speaker 2: about having a flow of money coming in. I think

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Speaker 2: that could make a whole lot of sense as well.

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Speaker 2: But you kind of mentioning your husband and sort of

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Speaker 2: what he found he needed from when it comes to

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Speaker 2: just other people talk about how important it is to

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Speaker 2: gather support. You talk about that in your book, because

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Speaker 2: not everyone in your social circle is going to understand

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Speaker 2: when you tell them, hey, I'm looking to take some

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Speaker 2: time off. There's a difference between maybe your friends at

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Speaker 2: work versus someone who is going to be more supportive

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Speaker 2: I guess of something like a sabbatical.

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Speaker 3: Can you talk Yeah, I mean I think there's all

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Speaker 3: kinds of constituencies you almost have to think about.

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Speaker 4: When you make an announcements like this.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's your coworkers, there's your family, like your

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Speaker 3: extended family as well as your immediate family and your friends, right,

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Speaker 3: and it's going to be really surprising who is supportive

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Speaker 3: and who's not. I mean, I know for me, you know,

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Speaker 3: I had some really good friends that they sort of

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Speaker 3: raise their eyebrows at me, like are you sure you're

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Speaker 3: going to do this? And it was sort of gut wrenching,

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Speaker 3: like what, I don't understand why you're not supporting me here?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 3: And then I had other folks tell me stories of

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Speaker 3: going on break and one person in particular who was

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Speaker 3: going to take care of her kids for a little while,

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Speaker 3: and she immediately felt like she got judged, you know,

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Speaker 3: for that decision. And so there's a lot of negativity

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Speaker 3: on the idea of taking time off because a lot

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Speaker 3: of times it's still associated with something wrong, like there's

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Speaker 3: something wrong, so therefore you have to take time off,

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Speaker 3: therefore you know something, there's something shameful about this.

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Speaker 4: I spoke to a CEO.

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Speaker 3: Of a nonprofit this week who took a sabbatical over

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Speaker 3: the summer, and she was ashamed to tell her board

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Speaker 3: what the plan was. And this was an employee like

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Speaker 3: a sponsored sabbatical from the company, but she was still

431
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Speaker 3: ashamed to make an announcement because of this sort of

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Speaker 3: deep seated pressure or fear, like what.

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Speaker 4: Are people think I'm just going to be slacking? Like

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Speaker 4: what's the deal here?

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Speaker 3: So you know, I think in order to combat this,

436
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Speaker 3: first of all, you got to know this is, this

437
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Speaker 3: is what you're up against. But two is to kind

438
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Speaker 3: of push through some of those fears and be courageous

439
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Speaker 3: to start talking maybe more publicly about it. Consider making

440
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,720
Speaker 3: a post and just kind of getting out in front

441
00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:58,480
Speaker 3: of it, explaining what it is that you're going to

442
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 3: do and why you're going to do it. And I

443
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,639
Speaker 3: think over time a lot of that the course of

444
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,840
Speaker 3: those posts will will help kind of raise awareness that

445
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,480
Speaker 3: this is a valid way to not just like get

446
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 3: back more time and energy in your life, but to

447
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:16,399
Speaker 3: create new growth and pivot and maybe even change and

448
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,159
Speaker 3: wealth in your life in a way that you wouldn't

449
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,680
Speaker 3: have had the opportunity if you just kept working. We're

450
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,080
Speaker 3: still pushing back against decades and generations of work, work,

451
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:31,120
Speaker 3: work until essentially you die or get sick, right, And

452
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,680
Speaker 3: so you know there's a lot there, but I think, right, yeah, yeah,

453
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,520
Speaker 3: this puritanical view, right, But I think it's important to

454
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 3: find people or lean on people who you are finding

455
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,480
Speaker 3: that are supportive. And nowadays there are there are more

456
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 3: groups than ever.

457
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:48,240
Speaker 4: You know, there's.

458
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,879
Speaker 3: Facebook support groups for people taking sabbaticals. There's more and

459
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,640
Speaker 3: more podcasts I think that are talking about this sort

460
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:55,880
Speaker 3: of thing.

461
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 4: So there are ways to get ideas.

462
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,480
Speaker 3: And feel like you're you're not just alone in the

463
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 3: world doing something wild and crazy and avant garde, and

464
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 3: so it is important to seek some of that stuff

465
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,199
Speaker 3: out and find maybe more like minded people because you

466
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 3: are going to get some raised eyebrows no matter what,

467
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:17,280
Speaker 3: and that it's going to be a surprise at who

468
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 3: those people are.

469
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 1: I would say, yeah, I believe it. There's going to

470
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 1: be some hard conversations you're going to have to be

471
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,399
Speaker 1: ready for, and I think you're going to have to

472
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,439
Speaker 1: be convinced of the value of taking that sabbatical in

473
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,720
Speaker 1: advance so that you can have those conversations without I

474
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,159
Speaker 1: guess feeling super super judged. We've got more questions we

475
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 1: want to get to with you, Katie, including like can

476
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,119
Speaker 1: everyone actually take a sabbatical and maybe like some of

477
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 1: the financial realities behind that. It feels like we're the

478
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 1: safer retirement and save for sabbatical. How are we going

479
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 1: to do both? We'll talk about that right after this.

480
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 2: We are back from the break again speaking with Katie North.

481
00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 2: And right before the break, Katie you mentioned like that

482
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,880
Speaker 2: Sea EO and she was afraid to bring it up

483
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 2: to the board and this was a policy, like you mentioned,

484
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 2: that was already in place. It seems like there are

485
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,920
Speaker 2: more employers out there who are willing to talk about

486
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,439
Speaker 2: sabbaticals these days. So you know, folks, they don't even

487
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 2: have to quit their jobs in order to pull this off.

488
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,360
Speaker 2: Can you maybe share some different examples of different companies

489
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 2: out there and some of the programs that they're offering.

490
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it is a benefit for sure.

491
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 3: The Society for Human Resource Management, which is a global

492
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,880
Speaker 3: HR organization, did a study and they found that there

493
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,640
Speaker 3: was like more than four hundred companies that just are

494
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,399
Speaker 3: in their kind of world of reference that are offering

495
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,679
Speaker 3: some form of sabbatical program, whether paid or unpaid. And

496
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,880
Speaker 3: believe it or not, I've talked to people who did

497
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 3: not know their own employer had this as a benefit.

498
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 3: And so your first line if this is something that

499
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 3: you're interested in doing, is to go into your HR

500
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 3: manuals and examine whether this is an existing program or

501
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 3: not at your organization, and if it is, you know,

502
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 3: start to talk with not just HR, but your boss

503
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 3: and your boss's boss probably to come up with a

504
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 3: scenario and solution for you know, who's going to take

505
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 3: over your work while you're gone, and how it's all

506
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 3: going to work out. The most successful companies that have

507
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 3: this program in place are the ones who create like

508
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 3: a multi level communication plan that is both internal and

509
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 3: external client facing. They do a big job of, like

510
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 3: PR style promoting it. And it's a benefit to the

511
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 3: company too, because it becomes like a nice place to work,

512
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,920
Speaker 3: like this benefit exists and it's a cool thing that's

513
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 3: being offered, and so you know, they can get miles

514
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,920
Speaker 3: out of that from a PR perspective too, if everybody's

515
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 3: communicating in advance. And then there's also this idea of

516
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 3: like creating a return to work kind of routine for

517
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 3: the people who've taken sabbaticals and what it's like to

518
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 3: return to work and realize, well, somebody else did my

519
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:01,479
Speaker 3: job while I was gone.

520
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 4: Now what like what does that mean? Like I'm worthless?

521
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 3: And so there's that kind of phenomenon that also happens,

522
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:11,719
Speaker 3: and so it's really important to kind of have a

523
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 3: return to work transition as well set up. And what

524
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 3: that might look like is simply, you know, just sharing

525
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,479
Speaker 3: a little bit about what the sabbatical was, like, what

526
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 3: it meant for the employee and maybe what they learned

527
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 3: or what they they still want to do or what

528
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 3: they want to maybe transition off their plate even post sabbatical,

529
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 3: and what new things they may want to take on.

530
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 3: It's a unique stress testing opportunity for organizations, no question.

531
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 1: If there's no policy on the books, like you've come

532
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 1: through the HR manual and there's no sort of yeah, hey,

533
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 1: here's the you know, sabbatical reality. If you've been here

534
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,479
Speaker 1: a certain number of years, you get this many weeks

535
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: off of paid leave or half pay or something like that.

536
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,199
Speaker 1: Is it still something you can ask for? Is have

537
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,679
Speaker 1: you seen people successfully negotiate with their employer to say, listen,

538
00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,160
Speaker 1: this is I feel like this is in the cards

539
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 1: for me. I needed to happen. I would quit otherwise.

540
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 1: Should I just ask? Yeah, see what happens?

541
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 4: Absolutely ask, you know.

542
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 3: Just I've had several people that I've talked to, some

543
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 3: of their stories are featured in the book, that they

544
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,439
Speaker 3: just had the courage to ask. And one person was

545
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 3: given a year off unpaid to work on a creative project,

546
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 3: traveling around the globe and kind of doing a documentary

547
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 3: and their employer was like, yep, you know, return in

548
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 3: a year, your job will be here. And it was

549
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 3: a total surprise to her because she thought for sure,

550
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 3: like they wouldn't go for it at all, And so

551
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 3: you could also pitch it kind of like a pilot program, like, hey,

552
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 3: let me be the guinea pig. I want to you know,

553
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 3: this is an important benefit. Here's all the reasons and

554
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 3: the research behind it. Let me be the guinea pig.

555
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 3: Let's figure this out and develop you know, the policies

556
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,679
Speaker 3: and procedures using me, you know, as the.

557
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 4: Test case for it.

558
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,479
Speaker 3: And in those cases, I think it's also really important

559
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 3: to get it in writing, make sure everybody's on the

560
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 3: same page, whether you'd have to do something when you return,

561
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 3: like stay for a certain number of years or something

562
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 3: like that. Are you know, laying out those those policies.

563
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 3: I think it's really important and kind of getting everybody

564
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 3: on the same page.

565
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 2: That makes sense. Yeah, So these are kind of like

566
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 2: I guess, external hurdles with your company that you have

567
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 2: to overcome. And earlier too, you were talking about the

568
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 2: cultural stigma of folks, you know, not working and maybe

569
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 2: what that says about them. There's a lot of folks

570
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 2: as well who are dealing with sort of like that,

571
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 2: like a personal cultural stigma, right, and like we're talking

572
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 2: about that identity aspect of finding sort of our purpose

573
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 2: within our work, and it like it's often the first

574
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 2: question we ask new folks when we meet them, you know, like, hey,

575
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 2: what is it that you do?

576
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 4: Yeah?

577
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 2: And so how like how do folks deal with that?

578
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 3: Right?

579
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 2: Especially I'm thinking about like those early weeks of taking

580
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 2: a sabbatical where maybe are even questioning yourself. You're like

581
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 2: what I I oh, no, like I've totally screwed up.

582
00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 2: You find yourself bored, you don't know what to do,

583
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 2: You've been binge watched a few too many shows. Maybe

584
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 2: how do folks kind of fight that battle?

585
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 4: Yeah?

586
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there are some common phenomenon with this

587
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 3: sort of ebb and flow, and certainly the boredom does

588
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 3: set in for everyone, even if you're on a world

589
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,880
Speaker 3: traveling expedition at some point, and that's okay. The boredom

590
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 3: means that there's some change on the horizon and that

591
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 3: you're going to be figuring things out.

592
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 4: So it's actually a good sign.

593
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: So we should try to be bored.

594
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, to get to that point.

595
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 3: I mean literally, yeah, get to that point, and it's

596
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 3: a it's a good teacher, you know, in terms of

597
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 3: how you how you like relate to stress and what

598
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 3: that means, right, and what does boredom look like for you?

599
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 4: And and all of that. It's a it's a really

600
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 4: great teacher.

601
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: And boredom is so hard to come by in our

602
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: culture these days.

603
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 2: Like I'd rather constant distractions, everything that's out there to

604
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 2: entertain us.

605
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can like become the world's best at candy

606
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: crush instead of having to be bored yes, yes.

607
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 3: And the other thing is like, once you create a plan,

608
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 3: finances are all often like the least of your concerns.

609
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 3: I mean, I certainly see that with my financial planning practice, right,

610
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 3: I'm a financial advisor.

611
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 4: I help people with their budgets, with their investments, all

612
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 4: of that.

613
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 3: Obviously we talk about money all day, but when it

614
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 3: comes to sabbaticals, you know, I find that the money

615
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,719
Speaker 3: kind of takes a back seat a lot of times.

616
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 3: And then there's clients often are agonizing more over the

617
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 3: who am I? Who am if I'm not working? What

618
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 3: am I going to do next? What does this mean

619
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 3: for me? Like how do I communicate it to people?

620
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 3: And so there are all these other you know, personal

621
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 3: aspects and journeys that you've got to go on. And

622
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 3: so one of the most important things while you're on

623
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 3: a work break is to actually do some of this

624
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 3: self reflection. And for me, like writing and journaling is

625
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 3: really important for other people and may just be you know,

626
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 3: talking with friends or with trusted a counselor in your

627
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 3: life or something like that, but doing some self reflection

628
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 3: is one of the most powerful gifts that you can

629
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 3: give yourself while on a work break. And all the

630
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 3: answers are there, You're going to find that the answer

631
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 3: has just come flowing out of you. It's just a

632
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 3: matter of unlocking them and allowing your brain to sort

633
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 3: of do the work. And you can't force it, right,

634
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 3: It just it will happen naturally.

635
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: When you say that money's not typically like the number

636
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,239
Speaker 1: one subject that people are approaching is that because it's

637
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: a self selecting group of folks who are already working

638
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: with a financial planner and they're already being thoughtful about

639
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: their money. Because I'm just trying to think of maybe

640
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: listeners to how to money who are kind of new

641
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: to personal finance, right, maybe they're like, I'm just trying

642
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: to like get rid of the debt from the holidays

643
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: and I and save up an emergency fund, and so

644
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: like the idea of self funding a sabbatical while I'm

645
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: trying to pay off the debt and start to save

646
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: for retirement sounds intense. So in your estimation, is this

647
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 1: just a reality for upper middle class folks who have

648
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: been on the career ladder for a while, or is

649
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 1: this really something that most folks. It's accessible to most folks.

650
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't think there's like a black or

651
00:30:57,960 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 4: white answer on that.

652
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 3: I mean, certainly the people I work with are self selecting,

653
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 3: and that you know, I work with women in their

654
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 3: thirties and forties who've kind of been established in their career.

655
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 3: You know, they do have free cash flow, they're not

656
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 3: probably not in debt, right, and so the number of

657
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 3: people that I've worked with one on one that's going

658
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 3: to be their story is that you know, they're not

659
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 3: They are concerned about the money, and they use money

660
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 3: as like a well I can't do this because but

661
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 3: really when we dig into it, what I'm finding is

662
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 3: that it's a lot of these other personal things that

663
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 3: are going on. However, your question about whether this is

664
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 3: accessible for most folks, I do think it is. And

665
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 3: the reason I say that is because anyone can prioritize anything.

666
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 3: It's just about a matter of having a plan, right.

667
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 3: And you know, I did some simple math on this

668
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 3: just to give people an idea of how just how

669
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 3: accessible it is and how frequently you could do it.

670
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 3: And the main reason why is because when you're on sabbatical,

671
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 3: you don't have to cover your full income right that

672
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 3: you earn.

673
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 4: You only have to cover your expenses.

674
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 3: And so if you can get to a point where

675
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 3: you're being very mindful of your expenses and you're able

676
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 3: to cut things down, right, if you're saving five percent

677
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 3: of your take home pay, you could fund a three

678
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 3: month sabbatical every five years just by saving five percent

679
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 3: of your take home pay. If you ratchet that up,

680
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 3: of course, right, you could do it much faster. You

681
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 3: could take longer sabbaticals. You know, there's all sorts of

682
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 3: ways to figure this out, but it's like it's a

683
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 3: matter of prioritizing that. And if you've got multiple goals, right,

684
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 3: how do you figure out what comes first, will come second,

685
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,719
Speaker 3: or how you do manage to do all three or

686
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 3: sort of share share the wealth among the goals, so

687
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 3: to speak.

688
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 4: So with intention and with a plan, certainly creating.

689
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 3: A system and a you know, a savings goal for

690
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 3: this is very accessible no matter what your income level is.

691
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 2: I love that. What are some of the different creative

692
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 2: financial choices you've seen folks make. So obviously folks are

693
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 2: saving up and they're looking to set that set aside

694
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 2: that fund, right like, they want to have that runway

695
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: to be able to take that sabbatical. And there are

696
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 2: all sorts of ways you can increase your income cut

697
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 2: different expenses in your life. But once folks are on sabbaticals,

698
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 2: I'm curious what are some of the just more out

699
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 2: there decisions that folks have made to either extend that

700
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 2: or as a way to decrease their expenses.

701
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean even the getting started piece, you know,

702
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 3: a tax refund, a gift, a small inheritance, or like

703
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 3: a company bonus of some kind can be a great

704
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 3: way to sort of jump start savings or something like this,

705
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,479
Speaker 3: like some surprise money. But while you're on sabbatical, you know,

706
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 3: the we talked a little bit about, you know, the

707
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 3: travel around the world thing, but there are many countries

708
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 3: that are far less expensive to live in than the

709
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 3: United States, and so that's actually kind of a cool

710
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 3: flex is to find one of those countries, and you know,

711
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 3: it takes some cash to get there, but once you're there,

712
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 3: you know you could have a very very reasonable kind

713
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 3: of standard of living without the cost, you know, a

714
00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 3: quarter of the cost of the United States. And so

715
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 3: so I've seen people get really creative on that front.

716
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 3: I've seen people also apply to fellowships abroad or teach

717
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 3: English abroad and as a way to have some income

718
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 3: stream while they're traveling, and that can get that can

719
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 3: be really interesting and a really unique experience as well.

720
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 3: And then you know, depending on what your living situation

721
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 3: is here back here in the States, you know, a

722
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 3: lot of people fund some of this through like renting

723
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,240
Speaker 3: out their current place, you know, either short term tenants

724
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 3: or long term tenants and finding a way to have

725
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 3: an income stream while you're gone. And so so that

726
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 3: can be really good. Another another cool and unique way

727
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 3: that I've seen people fund a work break, and it's not,

728
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 3: as I don't know, glitzy, but it's like, if you

729
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,760
Speaker 3: really are dealing with burnout and this is a mental health.

730
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 4: Concern for you, you.

731
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 3: Know, you can likely apply and get a partially paid

732
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 3: time off using the Family Medical Leave Act f MLA,

733
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 3: and so you know mental health challenges. Burnout is a

734
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 3: is a recognized mental health challenge. You know, you just

735
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,280
Speaker 3: have to go through your channels, get your doctor's notes

736
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 3: and make sure HR is informed. And if you work

737
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 3: for a company of a certain size, they're required to

738
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 3: hold your job for three months and they're not.

739
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 4: Required to pay you during that time.

740
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,439
Speaker 3: But most companies of that size offer have a short

741
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 3: term disability insurance that's paid up and so you could

742
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,919
Speaker 3: get maybe sixty percent of your salary while you take

743
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 3: the time off to you know, do some therapy, get healthier,

744
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 3: kind of change your change of thought processes around work,

745
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 3: and maybe recover from the burnout some.

746
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's helpful to know. I love the idea of

747
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: running out your place, moving to Thailand. You could sabbaticle

748
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: for like eight years. I think if you take that round,

749
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: you move somewhere cheaper and you're making some money on

750
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: your place. What would you say? And it sounds like

751
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 1: this is like maybe the line of questioning or discussion

752
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 1: that you take with some of your clients. Someone who

753
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: has the financial means, but they feel kind of paralyzed

754
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: by the idea of taking a sabbatical, and especially if

755
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:09,240
Speaker 1: they are, they have a job and they think, especially

756
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 1: if it means leaving that job, how am I ever

757
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: going to find a job that's comparable, that's equivalent, that's

758
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: going to pay the same amount, especially at this stage

759
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: in my career. Think of all of those looming questions

760
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: that this engender is to try and take six months

761
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: plus off or something like that. And it doesn't have

762
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: to be six months. But what would you say to

763
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 1: that person who thinks there's no way I'm going to

764
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 1: be competitive in the workforce after taking this.

765
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 2: Much time off.

766
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 3: Well, that's an old way of thinking, right that suddenly

767
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 3: you've lost your knowledge, your skills, your expertise, all the

768
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 3: experiences you've had in your career. You don't lose any

769
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 3: of that. You don't lose a drop of it while

770
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 3: you take a work break. In fact, a lot of

771
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 3: this get strengthened because you have time away from work

772
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 3: to reflect and think, like, Okay, what is important to

773
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 3: me in my.

774
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 4: Day to day job, What skills do I appreciate? What

775
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 4: do I want to build on?

776
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 3: And you come back bringing your best self to that role,

777
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 3: and it's probably a much better fit. You know, and

778
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 3: so how can you not take a break if it

779
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 3: will unlock this new energy and this sort of newfound

780
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,879
Speaker 3: runway for you to go and just have a lot

781
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 3: of energy around your purpose and what you're doing.

782
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 4: I think the old way of thinking.

783
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 3: Is, oh, I'm out of the workforce, I'm missing out

784
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 3: on this and missing out on that, and now suddenly

785
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 3: I'm not relevant and I'm not up to date. That's

786
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,760
Speaker 3: a very old way of thinking, and it's just not true.

787
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 3: It's just not true.

788
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 2: Nice all right, Katie, We've got more to get to,

789
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 2: just a few more questions, and specifically we want to

790
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 2: make sure to touch on retirement and how sabbaticals can

791
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 2: act as a sort of as like a test drive.

792
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 2: We'll get to that more right after this.

793
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 1: Our we're back. We're still talking with Katie North. We're

794
00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: talking about sabbaticals and the radical impact that taking a

795
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 1: sabbatical can have on your life.

796
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 2: We missed out on name in this episode, radical sabbatical.

797
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 1: Don't Yeah. I thought of it in trusting. I had

798
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: to consciously hold off because I knew you would judge it, Matt. Katie,

799
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 1: are there other financial considerations that need to be made

800
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,360
Speaker 1: before taking a sabbatical. I'm thinking of Let's say someone

801
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 1: wants to buy a home and they don't have income

802
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: for the time being. That could, you know, dramatically reduce

803
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 1: their ability to buy a home unless they've got cash

804
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 1: on hand. So what are maybe some of those other

805
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 1: things that you want people to at least think about

806
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 1: before they start that sabbatical.

807
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think there's a few things you

808
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:39,720
Speaker 3: can't do financially, either while on sabbatical or immediately after.

809
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 3: One thing is if you're leaving your job, you know,

810
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 3: at will, and you're quitting to take some time off

811
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 3: to do self paid time off from work, You're not

812
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 3: gonna be able to get unemployment.

813
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:52,479
Speaker 4: Because it's your choice, right.

814
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 3: It's different if you were terminated and that or you

815
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,720
Speaker 3: receive some kind of severance package and you know, getting

816
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 3: unemployment was on the table.

817
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 4: So that's one thing.

818
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 3: You're not going to be able to finance or refinance

819
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 3: a mortgage because the mortgage companies are looking at recent

820
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 3: pay stubs and unless you have enough income within your

821
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 3: family through other means, another another your spouse working, or

822
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 3: something like that, financing or refinancing a mortgage is probably

823
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 3: off the table. Refinancing student debt for the same reason.

824
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 3: If you're somebody struggling with student debt and you're trying

825
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 3: to get a lower interest rate, you're probably not gonna

826
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,720
Speaker 3: be able to refinance until after you go back to work.

827
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 3: Renting a new place is also kind of tough because

828
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 3: landlords often want to see recent pay stubs. There may

829
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 3: be some ways to finagle that, depending on how formal

830
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 3: your landlord.

831
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 2: Is, but in general, I'd be like, yeah, you're you've

832
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 2: been finding yourself.

833
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 3: All right, Yeah, yeah, I mean you could show like

834
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,320
Speaker 3: the amount of money you have in savings or something

835
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,439
Speaker 3: like that as a substantution. But you will be able

836
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 3: to do some things that are kind of surprising, Like

837
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 3: you probably will be able to get a new credit card.

838
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 3: And I'm not advocating for going into credit card debt

839
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 3: to go to take a sabbatical, but you know, you

840
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 3: may be able to qualify for like a low or

841
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 3: no interest deal for a short period of time. And

842
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 3: because the credit card companies are sort of looking at

843
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 3: last year's income, not you know, not asking for current

844
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 3: pay stubs.

845
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:25,839
Speaker 4: Car Loan, same thing.

846
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,720
Speaker 3: Car companies tend to just look at last year's income

847
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 3: versus current pay stubs.

848
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 4: So if needing a.

849
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 3: New car is part of, you know, whatever your sabbatical

850
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 3: plan looks like that, that may be okay as far

851
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 3: as financial kind of decisions and things like that.

852
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: Might might even help doing some ROTH conversions right while

853
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,439
Speaker 1: you're on your sabbatical.

854
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,439
Speaker 3: Potentially exactly when you're in a lower tax bracket. There's

855
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 3: a lot of kind of financial things you should examine

856
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 3: like that, like whether you should do some ROTH conversions.

857
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 3: There may be a whole slew of tax benefits and

858
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 3: deductions that kind of open up to you when you

859
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 3: have lower income, and that includes like healthcare subsidies even, right,

860
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of things along those lines to

861
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 3: sort of examine. You may want to google like tax

862
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 3: credits and deductions and look at the income thresholds and

863
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 3: see what might come up that you might qualify for.

864
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 3: And I've definitely seen a lot of people able to

865
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 3: save a lot more money for things just based on

866
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 3: kind of their tax situation.

867
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: You briefly mentioned severance packages, and I think you know,

868
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 1: we talked to somebody a while back, Matt on the

869
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 1: show who talked about negotiating a severance package and kind

870
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 1: of highlighted that it's open to more people than they

871
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 1: would typically think. But if this is something that's a

872
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 1: goal of yours to take time off and you're like,

873
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 1: I don't see myself coming back to this job, is

874
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: there a way to maybe finagles like months and months

875
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,240
Speaker 1: worth of pay as you walk out the door. Because

876
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 1: it's a win win situation for the employer and for you.

877
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

878
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 3: I mean, I wouldn't necessarily tell your employer like you

879
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 3: were going to leave anyway, because they might. A lot

880
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 3: of times the severance packages will say like, you know,

881
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 3: it has to be it has to be like a

882
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 3: joint decision by the you know, by the manager and

883
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 3: things like that. But you know, I even had a

884
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 3: client this week she was considering taking a sabbatical starting

885
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 3: at the end of February, and she got a notice

886
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 3: this week saying that they're going to do a reduction

887
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 3: in force and they're taking volunteers. Yes, true, and so

888
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 3: you know that happens a lot at various times a

889
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 3: year in the corporate space. And so it's like, well, shoot,

890
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 3: she's going to jump on that, and now she's going

891
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 3: to have twelve weeks paid, whereas before she was just

892
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 3: going to do it herself and and you know, live

893
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 3: off for savings for a period of time, and so

894
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 3: it's a it's sort of like a lucky draw.

895
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:56,760
Speaker 4: When that kind of thing happens.

896
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 3: Normally it would be considered pretty terrible to have to

897
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 3: go through a reduction in force, But if it's something

898
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 3: you're planning to do anyway, making sure you're on the

899
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,320
Speaker 3: first round of cuts or getting your name forward first

900
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 3: would be a good move.

901
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 1: It's kind of like volunteering to the airline, like yeah, no, no,

902
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 1: bump me back to the later flight because I want

903
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 1: the eight hundred dollars in credits or whatever.

904
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

905
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 3: But you know, you don't necessarily have to give them

906
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 3: your original plans, like I was going to leave anywhere.

907
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 3: I just kind of keep that part close to your

908
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 3: vest and just focus on following their guidelines for the

909
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 3: reduction and force and.

910
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:34,399
Speaker 4: Or pitching it.

911
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 3: Like you could take the approach of pitching it if

912
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 3: they haven't announced a full reduction in force and say, look,

913
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 3: I know budgets are getting tight. I just wanted to

914
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 3: see if there's any room on the horizon or wiggle

915
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 3: room here where you know, maybe I could kind of

916
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 3: put my name out there and you guys would pay

917
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:52,320
Speaker 3: me a severance to leave or something like that.

918
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:54,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't have to share everything that we think

919
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 2: to our bossss. Yeah, but I want to highlight here

920
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 2: is something that essentially what you're saying here is that

921
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 2: a lot of times these sabbaticals they are something that

922
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 2: we do more proactively and as something that we plan

923
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 2: or that's something that we work towards. But you're highlighting

924
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 2: the fact that they can also be a way for

925
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 2: folks to kind of like a judo move of taking

926
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,439
Speaker 2: this sort of negative thing that would normally be seen

927
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 2: as a negative, whether it's a health emergency or whether

928
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 2: it's the company downsizing, and for you to take that

929
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 2: opportunity to say, you know what, instead of just launching

930
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 2: right back into the job search, let's use this unplanned,

931
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,439
Speaker 2: sort of forced time off as a sabbatical. You write

932
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 2: about that well in your book. But earlier we were

933
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,760
Speaker 2: talking about some of the benefits of sabbaticals, how you

934
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 2: use that time to take stock, to maybe volunteer, but

935
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 2: you also mentioned how you can use it to sort

936
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 2: of practice retirement, and in your book you detail how

937
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 2: pausing your contributions to retirement accounts during a sabbatical. How

938
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 2: it has a smaller impact on your nest egg than

939
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 2: folks might think. But can you explain how folks can

940
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 2: use a sabbatical as sort of like that test drive

941
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 2: for retirement.

942
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's really interesting working in my line

943
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,240
Speaker 3: of work. You know that you can work with someone

944
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 3: for years on their savings plan and then just how

945
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 3: difficult it is for someone to sort of switch gears

946
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 3: and decide to start living off of their income is

947
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 3: a major sea change in identity, right, But a sabbatical

948
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 3: is a unique position because it's a safe way to

949
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,839
Speaker 3: sort of practice this from an identity perspective as well

950
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 3: as a financial perspective of this concept of eventual retirement.

951
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 3: And it's like, okay, well who am I when I'm

952
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:35,240
Speaker 3: not working? How do I want to spend my time?

953
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 3: Those are two big questions that you can answer as

954
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 3: sort of like a safe sandbox where it's like time limited,

955
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 3: You're going to go back to work at some point,

956
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 3: and so it's a safe way to explore some of this.

957
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 4: And then the living off savings.

958
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 3: Piece is also a really good teacher because it's like

959
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 3: it kind of conditions you to understand, like, my money

960
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 3: is my wealth and it represents an income stream and

961
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 3: when even temporarily I'm living off my wealth, this is

962
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 3: how eventual retirement is.

963
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 4: Going to work.

964
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 3: And it gets me kind of used to that concept

965
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,320
Speaker 3: and that idea, and so it can be really beneficial

966
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 3: from that perspective too. And I think the sabbatical is

967
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 3: nice because anytime you take a break, or even if

968
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 3: you're off for multiple months, you could take each month

969
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 3: and do something different and explore or different sabbaticals that

970
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 3: you may take during your career. You could explore different

971
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 3: avenues that eventually might lead you to how you want

972
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 3: to spend some of or all of your time in retirement.

973
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, Katie, this has been a great conversation full of

974
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 1: like so much good information and food for thought for

975
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 1: people out there. I mean, and this really is. It's

976
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,320
Speaker 1: radical in so many ways, kind of the suggestion in

977
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 1: a culture that so revolves around work that hey, I

978
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:50,800
Speaker 1: don't know, maybe you should give it up for a

979
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 1: season to kind of see what lights you up and

980
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: maybe it'll actually, I don't know, produce significant personal dividends

981
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:01,720
Speaker 1: because you actually took the time to make it happen.

982
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us working our listeners

983
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 1: find out more about you and more about your book,

984
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 1: The Artist Sabbaticle.

985
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 3: Katie Noorth dot com and that's c A d Y

986
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 3: n O r thh dot com.

987
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 4: The book is available on Amazon and anywhere you buy books.

988
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 2: That's right. We forgot to mention early on that Katie

989
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 2: does not have the traditional Katie spelling. Yeah, you got

990
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 2: to get that D in there. Yeah, Katie, thank you

991
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:24,760
Speaker 2: so much for talking with us today.

992
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:25,439
Speaker 4: Thanks so much.

993
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 1: All right, Matt, that's a great confo. Yeah makes me

994
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 1: one walk kind of here right now, go take a break.

995
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 2: Uh, we're closer to doing that than I think maybe

996
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 2: our listeners, maybe even more than we even realized.

997
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 1: Jo Yeah, who knows. Yeah, I mean, And that's the

998
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 1: reality too, is is work is super fun, but there's man.

999
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 1: Life has so much to offer, and thinking centering your

1000
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 1: life around work, I think is a mistake, and I

1001
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:52,439
Speaker 1: think that's at the heart of what Katie's getting at.

1002
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:54,280
Speaker 1: But what was your big takeaway from this combo?

1003
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:56,839
Speaker 2: I think my big takeaway is going to be when

1004
00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 2: she writes about this really well too, but when she

1005
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 2: talks about giving yourself enough time to take a long

1006
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 2: enough sabbatical to actually be bored, to get to the

1007
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 2: point to where you're sort of forced to do some

1008
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 2: of that introspection right where maybe phone life, yes, I

1009
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 2: mean literally to sit there and to not feel. And

1010
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 2: this isn't just from an entertainment standpoint in candy crush,

1011
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 2: like you mentioned, but also there are other things that

1012
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 2: you typically want to do, right like oftentimes folks are

1013
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 2: going to use this time to spend some time with

1014
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 2: family or man, I haven't seen my college roommates, you know, Okay,

1015
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 2: so we're going to also go do that. And if

1016
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 2: it's too short of a sabbatical, I think you can

1017
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 2: just fill your time with a bunch of to doos.

1018
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 2: In her case with her husband, it was a lot

1019
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 2: of house project to dos and he's like, who whoa, whoa, whoa,

1020
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 2: let's pump the brakes. This isn't uh, this feels a

1021
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 2: little counterproductive for me to be going on the sabbatical.

1022
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:47,919
Speaker 2: But I think, like she said, those answers are there

1023
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,400
Speaker 2: there within us as individuals, and it just takes some

1024
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 2: time to unlock those answers to do the work and

1025
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:56,840
Speaker 2: to maybe even do some journaling where we're able to

1026
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 2: let some of those ideas flow from our brains. I

1027
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 2: think that that is advice that our culture needs more

1028
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 2: than ever.

1029
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think my big thing away was when Katie said,

1030
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,399
Speaker 1: you can prioritize anything. It's a matter of having a plan.

1031
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 1: And I think it's true. I think we just prioritize

1032
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 1: a lot of other things in this life. And and

1033
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 1: so what we do is true. We prioritize working more

1034
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:18,760
Speaker 1: because it means we can fund a more lavish lifestyle,

1035
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:21,479
Speaker 1: means we can spend more. And granted I'm not trying

1036
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: to like shame everyone.

1037
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 2: Out there, but and that's typically what happens.

1038
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 1: The truth does everything costs more, and exit the grocery

1039
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 1: store costs more. That's a reality of life. But it's

1040
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:32,360
Speaker 1: also true that we fund like a Nintendo switch is

1041
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 1: a choice, right, like whatever.

1042
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 2: That's what I was gonna say, like new cars or

1043
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 2: nicer vacations. It's not that it's not that folks are

1044
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 2: prioritizing work. It's that they've prioritized these other things, and

1045
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:43,880
Speaker 2: so because of that, they are forced to work in

1046
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:46,400
Speaker 2: order to fund these things as opposed to buying some

1047
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 2: other time. And that's what isabatical. Is like she literally

1048
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 2: hizing that.

1049
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: She laid it down a numbers where I thought was

1050
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: so helpful. She said, five percent of your take home

1051
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 1: pay gives you three months of a sabbatical every five years.

1052
00:49:57,640 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: Every five years. When you think about it, like now,

1053
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 1: a three month break, it's not that radical, that's so cool.

1054
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 1: It's not that hard to pull off. I mean, I'm

1055
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 1: not saying it's like easy, but it's simple. And so

1056
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,319
Speaker 1: if this is something that resonates with you and you're like, man,

1057
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 1: I would love the idea, the ability to take a

1058
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 1: few months off and to really kind of do some

1059
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: soul searching and figure out what's next. And the truth

1060
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 1: is it can actually be more productive to your bottom

1061
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:23,240
Speaker 1: line ultimately. I think taking that time off and maybe

1062
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:25,919
Speaker 1: it means making a pivot into something that you hadn't

1063
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 1: considered before, or maybe it's like a dormant dream that

1064
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 1: you kind of bring back up to the surface and

1065
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 1: it could lead to a higher paying career down the road.

1066
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 1: It might not, but more than anything, I think it's

1067
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,319
Speaker 1: going to be personally fulfilling in a way that you know,

1068
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: continuing to put in the hours at work never you know,

1069
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 1: nose to the grindstone, not picking up your nose for

1070
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 1: forty years in a way that that can never produce

1071
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:48,919
Speaker 1: for you.

1072
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 2: So I love it, man, It's so true. And these

1073
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 2: aspects of taking a sabbatical, the I don't know more

1074
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 2: of the why do I want to do this, like

1075
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 2: finding the identity pieces as opposed to the nuts and bolts,

1076
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 2: and how do I actually financially make this happen. It's

1077
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 2: pretty straightforward, but the I think the harder work is

1078
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 2: everything else that goes with taking That's the batical to me.

1079
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:12,799
Speaker 1: It's been kind of this slow burned because I guess

1080
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 1: I just grew up in a family culture where work

1081
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 1: was lauded and not wrongly I think in some ways

1082
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 1: sure work is a good thing, but so much so

1083
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 1: where I had a hard time thinking, well, why would

1084
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 1: anybody want to work less than forty five hours a

1085
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 1: week or whatever? And so it came to you need

1086
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 1: to take that break in order to see what it

1087
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 1: is that you are that you might have drawn. It's

1088
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:35,799
Speaker 1: been a slow change for me enough to where I'm like,

1089
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 1: I don't know, the sabbatical sounds pretty awesome.

1090
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 2: Now, all right, man, let's get back to the beer

1091
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 2: that you and I enjoyed did you pick this one up?

1092
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 2: Because it's kind of got a financial theme to this idea.

1093
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 2: It's called ticker Shock, also because I knew it would

1094
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 2: be delicious. But yeah, well, this is a beer by

1095
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 2: Other Half, and anytime I see a beer by one

1096
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 2: of our favorite breweries up out of New York, I

1097
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 2: know it's going to be so good. But this is

1098
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 2: ticker Shock, which is a double dry hopped Imperial IPA

1099
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 2: not sticker. I don't know.

1100
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 1: Do you think the dollar sign is supposed to be

1101
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 1: the S four sticker shock?

1102
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 4: Maybe?

1103
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1104
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1105
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 1: That was my assumption, says ticker Shock. Yeah, but the beer,

1106
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 1: I'm quite literal d The beer was fantastic. This was

1107
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 1: like a hoppy orange juice, incredibly citrusy, overwhelming, delicious hop

1108
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 1: notes Other Half doing what they do best with the spear.

1109
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:22,399
Speaker 2: Yep, got the hazy action going on, with a little

1110
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 2: bit of like sweetness, almost like a berry sweetness. And

1111
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,280
Speaker 2: on the label it says something about strawberry or strawberry wine,

1112
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 2: which I can totally pick up on that sort of

1113
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:33,879
Speaker 2: I don't know, there's like an edge that you get

1114
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 2: with strawberries specifically, and it just makes it super yummy,

1115
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 2: So glad I got to share this one on the

1116
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 2: episode on the podcast.

1117
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 1: Did you get thesaurus for that one?

1118
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,760
Speaker 2: Super yummy? But that's gonna be it for this episode.

1119
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:48,799
Speaker 2: Folks can find our show notes up on the website

1120
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 2: at howdimoney dot com. No doubt, all right, Matt, Until

1121
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 2: next time, Best friends out, Best friends out.

1122
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 4: The the n speak