1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to The piked In Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: and Katie Studios. The only way I can really describe 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: it is this is orchestrated. If you orchestrate something that 4 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: goes to planning, everybody understands their position in the orchestra. 5 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: They understand what notes to hit. They have a specific 6 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: purpose and a job. They know the area and they 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: know the prey. They know the nature of these individuals. Hell, 8 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: they know where their homes are. They know where security 9 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: cameras are. They know what they have to defeat to 10 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: get past these and whether it be locks timing well 11 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: if at the bedtime. They know all of this. That's 12 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: why this is so shocking when you begin to think 13 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: about it, is the level of orchestration involved to pull 14 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: this thing off. This is the piked In Massacre. Returned 15 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: to Pike County, Season two, Episode four, The Houses on 16 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: Union Hill Road. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at 17 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: Katie Studios with Stephanie Ledecker and Jeff Shane. Over two 18 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 1: hundred investigators and police officers have contributed so far to 19 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: this ongoing investigation. Today, they say they received eight hundred 20 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: eighty three tips conducted four hundred sixty five interviews, did 21 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: thirty eight search warrants, and sixty cyber extractions. Without question, 22 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: this has been by four of the longest most complex 23 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,680 Speaker 1: and labor intensive investigation the Ohio Attorney General's Office has 24 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: ever undertaken. As an investigator, I've worked any number of 25 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: mass killings. I've never covered anything autists. That's corner Distinguished 26 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 1: professor and criminal forensics expert Joseph Morgan. It is not 27 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: a normal thing to walk into a house and seeablood 28 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: mass It's something that borders only apocalyptic from the outset. 29 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: The year magnitude of the case posed huge investigative hurdles 30 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: for the Pike County Sheriff's Office. Pike County, it's a 31 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: rural county. Of course, they don't have a lot of money. 32 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: It's not a judgment, it's just the reality of it. 33 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: When you begin to think about those detectives that were 34 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: from this little area there for Pike, you know, from 35 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 1: Pike County Shaf's apartment, it's something they'd never be more 36 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: on witness too. It leads to limitations and your ability 37 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: to processing. So it is a herculean undertaking for police investigators. 38 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: And less than a month into the investigation, authorities made 39 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: would seem to many like an unusual decision. Work has 40 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 1: already begun to move the homes where eight members of 41 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 1: the Rodent family were found shot to death last month 42 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: in Pike County, Ohio. The judge has authorized his people 43 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: to load the four mobile homes and transport them about 44 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: four and a half miles north to the investigation command 45 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: center in Waverley to preserve the crime scenes. Well, we 46 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: talked with Joseph Morgan. We looked over aerial photos of 47 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: the crime scenes before the mobile homes were removed. They're 48 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: all we have to go on as no crime scene 49 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: photos have been released. There's a mock ups showing the 50 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: placement of the properties on our Instagram. The first few 51 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: images were of the property where Chris Senior and Frankie 52 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: Roden's trailers were located. Jeff got Morgan's thoughts on Pike 53 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: County's relocation strategy. Looking at these aerial photos while we're 54 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 1: talking about it. What really struck me They lived in trailers, 55 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: but these look more like homes that are in the 56 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: ground that aren't going anywhere. To me, that, like the 57 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: crime scene is the most important part, and moving them 58 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: like that seems like this was that would not be 59 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: so easy. After the termination of this case and when 60 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: it's finally these cases are all adjudicated, I'm going to 61 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: want to study this from a crime scene perspective because 62 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: I want to learn how they did this. I want 63 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,839 Speaker 1: to teach this because if they did it effectively, it's 64 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: something that somebody could write an academic paper on. I mean, 65 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: it's it's that big a deal. If you look at 66 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: this image, you would have to detach that mobile home completely, 67 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: and it's probably a foundational structure, so it's at least 68 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: has a cinder block foundation that is built around the 69 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: things that they can build a stick, build the structure 70 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: around it, and then attach it to the mobile home. 71 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: Just the sheer logistics of detaching this thing from the ground. 72 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 1: I've certainly you never worked a case that involved multiple 73 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: mobile homes that where people had been in dwelling for years, 74 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: that are plumbed and have electricity run to them and 75 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: have foundations, and that they're just lifted up off the 76 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 1: ground and taken from there. This is a monumental task 77 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: in or facilitate this. You've got to make sure that 78 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: nothing is going to be disrupted in transit because everything 79 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: is relative. It's relative. There's distance relationships, there's time relationships, 80 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: because things degrade, they change. We've got bullet holes. Well, 81 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 1: this is not like going into a static home. It's 82 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: moving back and forth as it's kind of going down 83 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: the road. So it's shifting. Well, what if it shifts 84 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: just a few millimeters relative to if you're trying to 85 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: pull trajectories on these bullets. So to that end, it 86 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: really gives you pause to think, why was it that 87 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: you wanted to move it from this location? By any measure. 88 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: Investigating the Rodent murders was a massive undertaking. Eight bodies 89 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: spread out across four bloody crime scenes, and soon after 90 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: the victims were found, Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigation and 91 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: FBI agents were called in to help lead the charge. 92 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: But according to Joseph Morgan, before the Rodent's mobile homes 93 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 1: were moved, it was imperative that authorities analyze the scenes 94 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: in their original states, viewing that body in the context 95 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: and the environment in which it is found. That's where 96 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: the tale is told at that point, and you have 97 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: to allow the body to tell you that story. Maybe 98 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: the person was face down they'll face down in bed 99 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: there in a prom position. Someone walked up behind them, 100 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: maybe when they were unaware, maybe they were sleeping, and 101 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: a close range they put a single round into the 102 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 1: back of their head. Well, I don't want to move 103 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: or manipulate the body until it's time to remove it 104 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: from the scene, after it's been measured and examined for 105 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: things like postmortem changes and documented photographically. I don't want 106 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: to change the body at all. I want to see 107 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: what the body is telling the current. The body is 108 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: the biggest piece of evidence that you have, because that is, obviously, 109 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: in this case, the target of what the individuals were 110 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: striving for. That's where the most forces brought to bear. 111 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: That's where the most violence takes place. That's where you 112 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: have the most transference. It's going to take place from 113 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: one object to the body, or from one body to 114 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: another body. The violence perpetrated by the alleged assailants, the 115 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: Wagners in the road In case was unusually brutal, thirty 116 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: two gunshot wounds between eight victims, all but one shot 117 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: in the head, and the evidence collected on the scene 118 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: and in the lab will all con tribute to chronicling 119 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: what transpired on the night of April twenty first, twenty sixteen. 120 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,720 Speaker 1: In light of Jake Wagner's plea deal, this story will 121 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: be integral for the prosecution's case against the other three 122 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: Wagners accused in the murders exactly five years after the 123 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: road and murders in Pike County, one of the four defendants, 124 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: Jake Wagner, is pleading guilty to all counts in exchange, 125 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: he avoids the death penalty and will serve multiple life 126 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: sentences with no chance at parole. His father, mother, and 127 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: brother are similarly charged, and they've pleaded not guilty to 128 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: help them avoid a possible death sentence. Prosecutors say that 129 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: Jake will testify against them. I spoke with Joseph Markin 130 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: about how Jake Wagner's plea will impact upcoming trials. You 131 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: need to understand the larger narrative here. He's now on 132 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: the outside. Jake is on the outside. He's no longer, 133 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: for all intents and purposes, part of the family. He 134 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: is going to be a state's witness at this point 135 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: in tom So you're going to have defense counsel. They 136 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: want to prevent the state from validating anything that this 137 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: man has to say. So, Jake's already pled guilty, He's 138 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: already implicated his family. Why is how these murders happened important? Now? 139 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: They want to try to either put all of the 140 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: blame on him and say that our defendants had nothing 141 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: to do with this whatsoever. It's all on him. He 142 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: suddenly got a guilty conscience, had you know what we say, 143 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: come to Jesus moment and decided to roll over on everything. 144 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: And it's all him, all by himself. It doesn't matter 145 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: what we think. What's going to matter is what the 146 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: jury thinks moving forward. At the end of the day, 147 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: everybody else will be able to draw their own conclusions. 148 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: But how in the world is this going to be 149 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: presented to the jury? And you're going to need a 150 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: playbill to keep up with all of the all of 151 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: the various permutations here, because if you've got you know, 152 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: four different parties here. I'm including Jake and this and 153 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: what he's saying to the prosecution, you've got four different 154 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: parties here that are giving you difference in areas. It's 155 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: going to be tass to someone to try to make 156 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,679 Speaker 1: sense of all of this, and that's someone that group 157 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: of people are going to be the jury. It will 158 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: be explained before the court and the people in that 159 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: jury box and before the judge. They will say, well, 160 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: we know that at this hour on the twenty first, 161 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: this occurred. And then moving forward, this is when the 162 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: bodies were found. Well what occurred between these moments? In 163 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: top studying the aerial photos of the crime scenes, Stephanie 164 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: put into perspective just how overwhelming a task it is 165 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: putting the story of the road and murders together. Just 166 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 1: seeing these photos now firsthand, in walking through them with you, 167 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: only offers up more questions for us. This is not 168 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: a small operation. This was huge. The volume of this 169 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: case is one of the most striking things for me. 170 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: I think, you know, out of every case that I cover, 171 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: I don't recall case like this that's blood suked and 172 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: it is spread far and wide. There are so many 173 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: pieces that have to be put into place with this, 174 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: you're leap frogging from this blood bath to another blood bath. 175 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: The forensics alone were highly complicated just from a geographic 176 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 1: distribution standpoint. It's like a beautiful mirror, okay, that someone 177 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: had hanging on their wall and somebody with specific intent 178 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: went in and destroyed this mirror and crashed it down 179 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: into thousands and thousands of pieces. And then it is 180 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: your job to make sense of these broken pieces and 181 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: try to put it back together, not necessarily to make 182 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: it usable again, but to try to understand what happened, 183 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:51,599 Speaker 1: what affected its destruction, to what degree is it destroyed, 184 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: what instrumentality may have destroyed it, and what the timing 185 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: was like on this How long has this thing men destroyed? 186 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,439 Speaker 1: We spoke with Joseph Morgan about the importance of timeline 187 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: in a multiple homicide case. Tomline is essential here because 188 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: you know, we just have these bits and pieces coming 189 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: out about the order of death. They're going to be 190 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: really focused on the body and the changes in the 191 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: body and the traumas the body is sustained and all 192 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: those sorts of things. I think that that's that's something 193 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: that's critical. As we studied the aerial images of the 194 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: crime scenes along with the autopsy reports, Morgan tried to 195 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,319 Speaker 1: piece together the chronology for us because his body was 196 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: in a more advanced state of decomposition. It's been speculated 197 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: that victim Chris Roden Sor was the killer's first victim. 198 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: So we started by looking at the layout of his trailer. 199 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: Joseph points it out what could have been the killer's 200 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 1: way in here he is talking to Stephanie. They have 201 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: a poor parking pad right there, and there's like a 202 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: sidewalk that extends up to that's a ramp. Yeah, walking 203 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: up into this little walkway into the porch area and 204 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: therefore into the front door. There's this entire runway, which 205 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: was likely where the assailants entered. Correct. So that brings 206 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,559 Speaker 1: me to this point. How many locks would have had 207 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: to have been defeated on that door in order to 208 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: gain entrance, and how can you gain entrance to that 209 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: door without making noise? But if you're going into that porch, 210 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: it also speaks to the fact that they did have 211 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 1: multiple trained attack dogs surveiling this area. Why didn't those 212 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: attack dogs attack because there's quite a bit of a 213 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: runway for you to get up to that porch. And 214 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: is it possible that they knocked on the door? They 215 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: knew one another, their family was very close so or 216 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: had very close bonds. Angela Wagner was there a woman, 217 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:47,599 Speaker 1: a mom? So wouldn't you go to the door a 218 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: little more? Even if you were at odds? If the dads, 219 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: for example, Chris Senior and maybe Billy Wagner at odds 220 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: over something. We've heard this, but you know his wife 221 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 1: is there, Angela, You're like, oh, what's happening. You'd be 222 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: more likely to open your door. It seems implausible that 223 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: they would draw them to the door. You know, it 224 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: makes me, it really makes me think, why would they 225 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,839 Speaker 1: be in the bedroom? How did the perpetrators get into 226 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,559 Speaker 1: the bedroom without these guys knowing it. That tells me 227 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: that maybe there was a hidden key. It does make 228 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: sense about perhaps a hidden key. Certainly, we don't know 229 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,959 Speaker 1: this as fact, it's a speculation, but we do know 230 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: that they were running serious surveillance on the family. They 231 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: have cameras at each of the locations in the homes, 232 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: really doing some top level surveillance on the family end. 233 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: At Jake, the youngest son, was there quite a bit 234 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: because he was sharing custody with the youngest daughter, and 235 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 1: for a long period of time they would TikTok between homes. 236 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: You get to know the location in the area very 237 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: very well. Joseph speculated about why Chris Senior may have 238 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: been targeted first. He apparently was identified as a primary 239 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: target or at least as a primary threat in our language. 240 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:00,599 Speaker 1: And you hear this in the news mea quite a 241 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 1: bit and on television shows and all not, but there 242 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: really is truly something that is referred to as overkilled. 243 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: You know, in Chris Senior's case, he was shot nine times. 244 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: What do you make of the brutality of that? It 245 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: kind of begs that question, Well, either you view that 246 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 1: person as a threat, maybe you see that they're going 247 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: to charge you, Maybe you have an awareness of what 248 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: their potential for violence is and that you want to 249 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: prevent that. There's evidence that he attempted or reacted at 250 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: least to the point where he raised his arm. He's 251 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: taken one round in his right forum. But this is 252 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: the part that is very very curious. It says that 253 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: around passed through a door. I don't know which door. 254 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: He was in a bedroom, maybe it was the door 255 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: to his bedroom, or maybe he was hiding behind the door. 256 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: But then it goes on to say that that round 257 00:14:55,440 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: in turn passed into his body. So you know, we're learning, 258 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: just in the sequencing with the Senior among the road 259 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: and Clan, that there was a lot of firepower that 260 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: was essentially directed toward him. You know he resided in 261 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: the trailer with Gary, so we can surmise that if 262 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: Chris Senior was first, then Gary would have had to 263 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: have been second because they occupied the same essentially the 264 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: same space, you know, I guess they have separate bedrooms. 265 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: But Gary didn't receive the same amount of tention that 266 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: Chris Senior. He was only shot at three times, but 267 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: these three gunshot ones he sustained. Two were to the head, 268 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: and it's kind of non specific in the descriptor, but 269 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: we know that one was in the face. And this 270 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: is kind of a theme that that you see running 271 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: through the nature of all of these killings. And I 272 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: find that kind of interesting because anytime someone has shot 273 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: an individual in the face from a profile standpoint, that 274 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: gives you the attitude that the individual is looking at 275 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: them at the shooter when they're fired upon. We're going 276 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: to take a quick break here, we'll be back in 277 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: a moment. Victims Chris Senior and Gary Roden's crime scene 278 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: potentially held a cash of clues for investigators. We know 279 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: that the scene in particular was very bloody, okay, because 280 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: we know that Chris Senior was shot multiple time. So 281 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: when we examine a scene. That is a treasure trove 282 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: of evidence collection there. If someone has tried to clean themselves, 283 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: clean their hands, washed down a weapon, maybe try to 284 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: repair an injury of their own. You've got evidence sitting 285 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,199 Speaker 1: in the drain and this is something they would have 286 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,120 Speaker 1: had to have accounted for. So all of the drain traps, 287 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 1: everything within there would have had to have been secured. 288 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: What if something got flushed down the toilet, well, you know, 289 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: because now that's going to go into a septic tank. 290 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,959 Speaker 1: Since this is so isolated, they're not going to be 291 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: on city sewer system. Logistically, it's a freaking nightmare. I 292 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 1: mean for a crime scene person, it is an absolute nightmare. 293 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: You have to make sure that all of your bases 294 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: are covered. Outside Chris Roden Senior's home was potentially even 295 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 1: more evidence. Here comes the big part that port right there, 296 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: which is a point of egress. You need to keep 297 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 1: that in mind. That is a point through which somebody 298 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,199 Speaker 1: entered this damned dwelling. Just let that sink in for 299 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: a second. That's got to be detached and moved. Now 300 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: it looks like they have a concrete slab parking area. 301 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: This is actually very nice. It's got a trailer or 302 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: a red truck, a great truck and a small car 303 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: that sparked right by the sidewalk, and that sidewalk is 304 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: poured concrete as well. That's all going to contain potential evidence. 305 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: We know that that is an important piece of It's 306 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: almost like a Footprinton, right, that has so much potential 307 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: DNA or blood or something that seeps into it. Yeah, 308 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: potentially blood evidence more than likely if they trapes out 309 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: of that house. This would have required a herculean effort 310 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: upon the authorities there. As we mentioned, crime scene photos 311 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: were never released. There were also very few on the 312 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: ground photos of the surrounding area because the entire road 313 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: was closed to the public. However, the aerial shots provide 314 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,439 Speaker 1: valuable insight into the crime scenes. Most likely, the killers 315 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: then moved to the trailer just a few hundred yards 316 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,640 Speaker 1: away where Frankie Rodin and his fiance Hannah Gilly were 317 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 1: living with Frankie's toddler and the couple six month old 318 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 1: baby boy. I always pictured it much further apart from 319 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: one another. It looks as though, and again this is 320 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: an aerial shot, you could on foot run from Chris 321 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: Senior's home to Frankie where he and Hannah were sleeping. 322 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 1: Making it up to Frankie and Hannah would be that's 323 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 1: no effort whatsoever. And if you've been surveilling the area 324 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 1: and keeping detailed notes on movements of people and this 325 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 1: sort of thing, it wouldn't be a problem at all. 326 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: In order to facilitate that, the proximity of the homes 327 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: most likely forced the killers to utilize some critical tools silencers. 328 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: We know from courtroom testimony that a homemade silencer was 329 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: found at a property owned by the Wagner's. Having silencers 330 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: when these crime scenes are so close together seems like 331 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: they would have to. And it does sound as though 332 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 1: from what we've researched that Frankie wrote in and his 333 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: fiance Hannah Gilly in their three year old on frankie 334 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 1: S three year old son, they were sleeping at the time. Absolutely. 335 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: And the other thing is this is not something that 336 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: you would do in the dark. You want to make sure, 337 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: because you're going there to specifically execute these people, to 338 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:17,719 Speaker 1: kill them, you want to make sure that you're going 339 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: to shoot them. So unless you've got flashlights in your hand, 340 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: which they bear one might have, you're going to flip 341 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: the switch as soon as you walk through the door, 342 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 1: light switch is right there. The element of surprise allowed 343 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 1: the killers to get with an intimate range of their victims. 344 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: The gunshot wound. You don't think about that it's being intimate. 345 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 1: But if you start scoring headshots, particularly multiple headshots, you 346 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: know that there is kind of a close approximation of 347 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 1: the perpetrator to the victim in that particular case. So 348 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: it tells a different tale. And you know what gunshot 349 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 1: ones to the head, particularly multiple ones, you want to 350 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: think about, well, where are they shot in the head? 351 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: If it is an execution style to the back of 352 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:04,199 Speaker 1: the head, that's one thing that I'm not saying that 353 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 1: the person is being humane, that's doing it, but they 354 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: want it over with and done as quickly as possible. 355 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: When you start talking about shooting people in the face, 356 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: this is something different, particularly if it's multiple times. First off, 357 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 1: the individual has potential to visualize you as you're doing it, 358 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: and you're visualizing them. That brings it up to another level. 359 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 1: Execution style means from the back of the head, so 360 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,880 Speaker 1: you don't have to make eye contact with your victim, 361 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: which makes sense. Yeah, that's a classic interpretation of it. 362 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: Like when I'm talking to somebody, a fellow death investigator, 363 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: a fellow forensic science person, if I say, yeah, it 364 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: was an execution style shooting automatically for me, and I 365 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: would assume for most of my colleagues, we're gonna think, Okay, 366 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: they're probably shot in the oxiput, which if you put 367 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: your hand, your fingers on the back side of your 368 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: head and you feel that big not in the back 369 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 1: of your skull, that's your occiput. I swear your cerebellum 370 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: dwells where your primal brain dwells, and there's mercy. There's 371 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: mercy in the ox put back there, you know, while 372 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: there's mercy because if you fire into that area, it's 373 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 1: almost an instantaneous death. But if you start shooting people 374 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: all over their body, and you do it multiple times, 375 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,199 Speaker 1: and particularly if you approach them and shoot them in 376 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: the face, there's no guarantee they're dead instantly, no guarantee whatsoever. 377 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 1: According to Morgan, the killers then likely traveled a mile 378 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: and a half up the road where victims Dina Chris Junior, 379 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: and Hannah Rodin lived. You know, I can't imagine that 380 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,360 Speaker 1: Dana poses the same threat level. Say, for instance, as 381 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: Chris Senior, Chris pre robust kind of guy, big guy, 382 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: you know, worked outdoors with cars and whatnot. He's familiar 383 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: with weapons. I would imagine he could pose a threat. 384 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: But this mother living in her trailer with her kids, 385 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: what threat did she that she pose? Is she the 386 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: focus of a tremendous amount of anger? Well, when you 387 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 1: combine the fact that they have committed overkill here with 388 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: the shooting of her in her skull so many times, 389 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 1: and then they moved to shoot her in a manner 390 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 1: in which could potentially disfigure her, this seems to me 391 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: almost a messaging that's sent out the people that are 392 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: perpetrating as have purpose to them. We have the other Hannah, 393 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: And what kind of person could stand over a young 394 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: woman and fire around into her face while staring at 395 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: her and her baby? You're visualizing this. This is not 396 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: something that's done in abstract. You're not a long long 397 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: distance away. You're up close and personal in these rooms, 398 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 1: are there? You know it's not the taj from the 399 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: hall here. I mean, it's they're not real tiny, but 400 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 1: they're pretty small. You're gonna be on top of her 401 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: when you're doing this. Jeff wondered how the brutal precision 402 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 1: executed by the killers could play into the prosecution's case. 403 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: Does that come into play that they shoot a mother 404 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,239 Speaker 1: holding her baby twice in the head? Does that make 405 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: it worse than shooting her once? This is a prosecutor's 406 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: dream if you're talking about a narrative, all right. It 407 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: takes such savagery on the part of an individual to 408 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: do this. You look at Chris Junior who is in 409 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 1: dwelling this place, and he's he's shot. It's kind of 410 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 1: non specific. We do know that he was actually shot 411 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: multiple times in the head, and he's a sixteen year 412 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:45,880 Speaker 1: old kid. You know what, what threat does he pose? Why? 413 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: Why would you take the life of a sixteen year 414 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: old boy? There? I don't I don't understand that. I 415 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 1: think at the end of the day, when we analyze 416 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 1: all of these these shootings, there's a thread. Obviously I've 417 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: talked about about the overkill that goes into all of this, 418 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: but there's a proximal issue here too, that is that 419 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: you're getting into the space of these victims. Then it's 420 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: likely the killers targeted their last victim, Kenneth Roden, who 421 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: is sleeping a trailer a few miles away on Left 422 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,199 Speaker 1: Fork Road. However, Kenneth's crime scene was strikingly different from 423 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: the other roaden victims. This is the end, the big finale, 424 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: and they shoot this guy in the eye. Now you 425 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,640 Speaker 1: know this idea that he is shot in the eye again, 426 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: this goes to another level of violence here. Literally did 427 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: he see this coming at that moment in time? And 428 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 1: then to kind of, you know, put the icing on 429 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: the cake. You you know, you drop dollar bills around Again, 430 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: that goes to motive. You're you're trying to put the 431 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: police on the scent that this is something other than 432 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: what it appears. I've worked cartel related homicides before. Yeah, 433 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: there's messaging didn't go along with this sort of thing. 434 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 1: But again, is that what they were going for. This 435 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: is a different type of staging. You're not trying to 436 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: mitigate the idea that it's something other than homside is 437 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: still a hom side you're trying. This goes to the 438 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: motivation behind the home side to put them off sent 439 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: And that's a very very interesting narrative when you begin 440 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: to kind of think about it. I believe in your 441 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: professional experience, have you ever heard of a family that 442 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:35,120 Speaker 1: operates as a foursome two different locations in this manner. 443 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: That's pretty uncommon. I would assume never did work into 444 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: major metropolitan areas as corner medical examiner investigator. I've never 445 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,400 Speaker 1: encountered it. The sheer barbarity of the rodent murders will 446 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 1: be a critical part of the story, but one element 447 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: in particular will be crucial to convey to the jury. 448 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,199 Speaker 1: Jeff asked Joseph Morgan about it. I'm just curious, like 449 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: how the prosecutors we're going to want to talk about 450 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: the question of whether or not the victims were aware 451 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: or their life was going to end, and how that 452 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: might impact the jury. It's going to be critical for 453 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: the prosecutor to be able to take the information that 454 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:17,479 Speaker 1: the investigators have developed in the field and working these scenes, 455 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 1: in particular the time, these little markers and time along 456 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: the way. How well were they able to document the 457 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: actions that took place within the environment. If they can 458 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: get that information out into open court, then they'll begin 459 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,120 Speaker 1: to talk about I can envision a closing statement in particular, 460 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: prosecutor would stand up there and say they took their time. 461 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 1: We have them document as being in this location or 462 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: this particular time, and you as a jury have to 463 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: consider this. What were they saying, what were they doing 464 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: while they were in there? Did these people know that 465 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: they were about to die? And of course the prosecutor, 466 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: it's their job to put this horrible as it is, 467 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: put the jury members in the place of the victims 468 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: to help them understand, because everybody has been in fear 469 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: of their life at the end of their life at 470 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,639 Speaker 1: some point in time. So you have to make that 471 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: almost You can't do it, but you want to make 472 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: it as almost tactile as you possibly can. So the 473 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: people in the jury they feel it stirring within their 474 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,639 Speaker 1: soul where they understand, Okay, these people were at a 475 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: critical mask and they knew that it was about to happen. 476 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: What would I do in that moment, tom where I 477 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: realized that my life was actually coming to an end. 478 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back 479 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: in a moment. I think that even a trained assassin 480 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: would find it foolhardy to go about trying to kill 481 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: eight people on the same evening, covering this much territory. 482 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,719 Speaker 1: There are too many things that can go wrong unless 483 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: you have somebody watching your back. You're going to have 484 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: to have a person that potentially is a lookout, are 485 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: a transporter. You're going to have to have somebody that 486 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: can muscle or control the intended victims, and then you 487 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: have to have a shooter and an ideally you would 488 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: in fact need somebody that's doing overall coordination because this 489 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: logistically it's a daunting task. I think, to say the 490 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: very least you know in this particular case, there are 491 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: too many variables involved. But even after you plan. Perpetrators 492 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: are not crime scene investigators. They don't think like crime 493 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: scene investigators. They're so very rare. Most of the cases 494 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: that we work as investigators, there is a huge opportunity 495 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: for these people to screw up along the way, to 496 00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: leave something behind that is a direct indicator there involvement 497 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: are at the presence when these deaths occurred, and in 498 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: this case, what was left behind included three young children. 499 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: According to Morgan, these spared lives go directly to the 500 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: heart of the presiding motive of the case, the singular 501 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: driver behind this. It has to those children whole value. 502 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 1: The attachment to the children is the driver behind this. 503 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: When you get overkilled, in my experience, at least it 504 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: goes to a lot of anger, it goes to a 505 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: lot of passion, and you'll see it in domestics. You 506 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: go to all this trouble, but yet you leave these 507 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: three babies alive, and you have to you know, you 508 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: begin to kind of question this, and it has an investigator. 509 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: It takes you down a specific direction. Who would attach 510 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: value to these children, who would want to see them 511 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: continue to live and still exist among the land of 512 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: the living up their pip can what accused killers Billy 513 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: Angela and George Wagner head to trial. Prosecutors will paint 514 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: them as the main characters in a gruesome, multilayered horror story. 515 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: Good prosecutors are great storytellers. That's their heartbeat. If they 516 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: are affective. They take all these little pieces of evidence, 517 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,719 Speaker 1: all this stuff we've been talking about, and they tighten 518 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: that thing down, and they walk in the courtroom and 519 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: they start talking about mama's and they start talking about babies, 520 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: and they start talking about these familial ties. And it 521 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: will be powerful in court. It will be very powerful. 522 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: And I can almost see it now, envisioning right now, 523 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: when he starts talking about this, and you can see 524 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: that jury there will be a slow turn of their 525 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: heads toward that defendant's table, no matter who's on trial 526 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: at that particular time, because they will talk about mama, 527 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: and they will talk about those babies, and they're going 528 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: to stare that individual town and they're gonna think, who 529 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: in the hell is in the courtroom with us. Well, 530 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: we wait to see if Billy Angela and George Wagner 531 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: will head to trial. There's one man intimately involved in 532 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: the road and murder case who has already seen his 533 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: day in court, Pike County Sheriff Charles Reader. After the murders, 534 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: he became front and center of all of the coverage. 535 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: She was giving information alongside the Ohio Attorney General at 536 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: that time. People were looking to him for information and 537 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: they wanted Reader, along with the state of Ohio, to 538 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: solve these murders. From all of the coverage that went 539 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,239 Speaker 1: into Pike County in the months after these murders, I mean, 540 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: Charlie Reader was a central figure in that. But Sheriff 541 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: Reader had a quick fall from grace. In June twenty nineteen, 542 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 1: he was indicted on eight felonies and eight misdemeanors. His 543 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 1: charges included thefton office and tampering with evidence. That was 544 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: huge news, not only because of his involvement in the 545 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: road and murders, but you're talking about the sitting sheriff, 546 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: the high Sheriff of Pike County is now the subjects 547 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 1: of an investigation. Evidence of misconduct, evidence of corruption by 548 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 1: a politician. You're going, man, I don't know what may 549 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:18,959 Speaker 1: happen with this. On March twenty four, twenty one, Sheriff 550 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: Freder appeared in court to face the charges leveled against him. 551 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: A guilty verdict would have major consequences if you're a 552 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: defense attorney working on this case and the sheriff, if 553 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: the county gets indicted, I would think, you know, if 554 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: you're a Wagner attorney, you would look to have a 555 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: field day with that. That might be part of your defense. 556 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: More on that next time. For more information on the 557 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie 558 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: Underscores Studios. The piked In Massacre Returned to Pike County 559 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 1: is executive produced by Stephanie Lydecker and me Courtney Armstrong. 560 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: Editing and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional 561 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: producing by Jeff Shane, Andrew Becker and Chris Graves. The 562 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 1: piked In Massacre. Returned to Pike County is a production 563 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 564 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,240 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 565 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.