1 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: Making a Murderer? Is Stephen Avery guilty or innocent? The 2 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: Netflix documentary Making a Murderer follows the real life case 3 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:16,440 Speaker 1: of Stephen Avery, but it may be missing key evidence 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: that tells you what kind of tunnel vision they had. 5 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: Avery is serving a life sentence for the two thousand 6 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: five murder of photographer Teresa Habbak. This is Crime Stories 7 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Stephen Avery's attorney looks to get a 8 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: new trial for her client. Kathleen Zellner lays out six 9 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: reasons why she believes Stephen Avery deserves a new trial. 10 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: Factors include the prosecutor's handling of the case, specifically mentioning 11 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: Ken Kratz, accusing him of withholding evidence from the defense 12 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: crusa Habbak was targeted by Steven every Zellner also points 13 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: to an ex boyfriend of Hallbox, suggesting he is the 14 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: one responsible for killing her. Stephen Avery Innocent or guilty. 15 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: I remember when a young girl, beautiful, short brown hair, 16 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 1: big brown eyes, was just a missing person and we 17 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: highlighted it on my show on CNN's h l in. 18 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: Little did I know that was the beginning of a 19 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: case that would have reverberations even now that girl, Teresa Hallback, 20 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: her killer, Stephen Avery. I Nancy Grace, this is Crime 21 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: Stories and we are podcasting live from Crime Con two thousand. 22 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: Who or as my twins go, they don't even know 23 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: what they're doing. They go, they don't even know what 24 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: that means, and they'll go, it's so funny, oh man. 25 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: And when I think about them, I think about Teresa 26 00:01:54,560 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: Hallback's family. Okay, what would you do? You pour all 27 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: your life, all your hopes, all your dreams, all your 28 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: energy in that right, Renee? How many times have you 29 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: come over to our house even though she is a 30 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 1: defense lawyer, and I'm doing homework, I mean the floor 31 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: making a project. Oh trouble, big trouble. Yeah. I can't 32 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: believe they give them that kind of project to the 33 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: third grade. I was doing that as a senior in 34 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: high school, like I've certainly mastered the staple gun in 35 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: the hot glue thanks to their third grade teacher. And 36 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: then they're just taken and brutally, brutally raped and murdered 37 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: with me today, the lead investigator on the Stephen Avery case, 38 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: Tom Fastbender, also with me, the creator of Up and Vanished, 39 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: Payne Lindsay with me veteran defense attorney Renee Rockwell out 40 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: of the Atlanta jurisdiction, and of course Alan the Duke 41 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 1: Duke with his radio voice straight from his posh pad 42 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: penthouse in l A. I want to talk about Stephen 43 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: Avery because at the launch of Crime Con two thousand 44 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: seventeen here in Indianapolis, we learn that there is a 45 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: brand new, high paid lawyer, well known, high profile that 46 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: has written written a one thousand page plus defense brief 47 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: claiming out of the blue that Teresa Halbacks ex boyfriend 48 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: is the real killer. Okay, let me just tell you 49 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: something that's not true, that is not true, because let's 50 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: how much sense does that make, Tom because we know 51 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: and this is by Stephen Avery's and that Stephen Avery 52 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: is the focus of Netflix. And I sure don't want 53 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: to make them it at me, but they probably already 54 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: are Netflix making a murder suggesting after thousands of hours 55 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: of videoing, thousands of hours of videoing, they cobble it 56 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: together to make it look like Stephen Avery is innocent 57 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 1: and that is just killing me. And what do you 58 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: think her Toresa Hallback's family is feeling about all this. 59 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: Let's just pretend for a moment, let's suspend our disbelief 60 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: if the ex boyfriend had killed her. On Stephen Avery's 61 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 1: words to me, I interviewed him on TV when she 62 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: was just missing. He told me, Stephen Avery told me 63 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: Theresa Hallback came to his auto salvage yard business that day, 64 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,559 Speaker 1: that she took the pictures and left. Okay, he told 65 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: me that to my face. I was going easy because 66 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: I didn't want him just to get up and leave 67 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: at the beginning of the show, you know, I wanted 68 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: at least ask him some questions. So I asked him, 69 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: you know what, hippen blah blah blah blah. And then 70 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: I get to him, like, now, let me understand something. 71 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: Her car is found at the edge of your auto 72 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 1: salvage lot, hidden under Like was it plywood and trees? 73 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:23,039 Speaker 1: What was it? Hidden trees? Branches? He goes that's right. 74 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, that's a coincidence that her car is 75 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: found on your lot. He goes, yeah, I was framed. 76 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, so they found the car fairly quickly. 77 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: So the way your lot is such because I looked 78 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,799 Speaker 1: it up, is situated. To get in your lot, don't 79 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: you have to pass your office. He goes, uh huh, 80 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:46,919 Speaker 1: and I'm like, didn't you just tell me that you 81 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 1: were in the office the whole day and you never 82 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 1: saw anybody come in. That's the only way in and out. 83 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: Then he started backing off and getting all be fuddled. 84 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: He remember now he told me that she came and 85 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: took the pictures. But then he's got we've got him 86 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: star sixty seven himself where you hide your phone number? 87 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:13,239 Speaker 1: Calling her number, and then what I think, after she's dead, 88 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: he leaves the message and correct me if I got 89 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: it wrong. He leaves a message saying, hey, this is 90 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: Stephen Avery. Why didn't you show up? Well, he didn't 91 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 1: leave a message. What he did do he called the number. 92 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: He did not use the star sixty seven feature on 93 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 1: the call after she had been abducted already after two 94 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: thirty quarter to three, when Teresa was seen at the 95 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: residence by his nephew walking to his Stephen Avery's house. 96 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: Well then later about four thirty, he makes that call 97 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 1: without Star sixty seven because he wants it to be 98 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: seen and that we believe it was an alibi call. Okay, 99 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: So him telling me one story is completely opposite, and 100 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,679 Speaker 1: that happened often early on where Stephen made and told 101 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 1: different stories. What were some of the stories with me? 102 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 1: Is Tom Fastbander the lead detective on the Steve Avery case? Okay? 103 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: Which Netflix has? You know? No offense made people believe 104 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: that the prosecutor set out to get the wrong person. 105 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: Why what joy is it and getting the wrong person 106 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: behind bars when the right person is walking free and 107 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: you have an innocent person behind bars. So tell me 108 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: how the whole thing went down? Tom, Well, initially on 109 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: that day, this was Halloween two thousand five, Stephen Avery 110 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: meekes a call to auto trader where Teresa worked, not 111 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: using Star sixty seven. Not using Star sixty seven, he 112 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: calls the the office auto trader. He asks Auto Traders 113 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: send out the same girl that had been there before. 114 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: He provides a different name beyond not his own name. 115 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: We whoa, whoa, I didn't know that, or I forgot it. 116 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: I know so much about the case, I forgot it. Okay, 117 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: So so we used the fake name. Well, it was 118 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: actually his sister's name. Beyond a bar beyond he uses 119 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: her name for a van that she owned that he 120 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: allegedly is going to sell. What we later learned that 121 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: was Barbaraly didn't want that van sold, so start thinking 122 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: about this. He also provides her phone number, not his 123 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: phone number. And there was the van was the van 124 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: and a lot. The the van was outside of between 125 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: their houses, so he didn't he wouldn't give his own name. 126 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: He wouldn't give his own and he gave her phone number. 127 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: And the people at auto Trader said, the one that 128 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: took the call said, he talked funny, like he was 129 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: trying to disguise a voice. She couldn't tell whether it 130 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: was a man or a woman. Why is he doing 131 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: this now? This is before she comes, This is before 132 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: she comes, and isn't it true Tom, that she did 133 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: not want to go, that she had been out there 134 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: for auto Trader before and she thought it was creepy. 135 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 1: She felt he was creepy um because he had come 136 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: to the door with a towel on only. Oh lord, okay, 137 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: very um revealing guys, Please don't do that, and it 138 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: does not make the impression you think it does. Okay, 139 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:17,559 Speaker 1: go ahead, and I want to care she I actually 140 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: went to the host and he pointed to pictures on 141 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: the wall of females and said, someday you're going to 142 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: be on their wall. According to what Teresa told her 143 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: co workers at Donald Treger UM, So, yeah, she felt 144 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: these a little creepy. She didn't seem to think he 145 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: would do anything, but yeah, you know, I was just 146 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: talking to her name about this earlier. Um Sometimes and 147 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 1: when I look back on the things that I have done, 148 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: looking back, I'm like, why did I do that? That 149 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: was so stupid And I didn't think anything about it 150 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: at the time. And even with those feelings, she went ahead, 151 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 1: probably didn't want to lose her job and goes out 152 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 1: to take the pictures at his salvage lot. Okay, then 153 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: what happ What do we know? Then? What we know 154 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: is that she got there about two thirty quarter to three, 155 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: somewhere in that vicinity. And prior to that, just prior 156 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: to that, stephen Aby makes the two phone calls to 157 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: her cell phone and uh, he's a Star sixty seven 158 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: does not make contact. Okay, So at least I got 159 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: that part right. You were right he was making her 160 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: calls to her on Star sixty seven. Why his His 161 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: explanation was to find out where she was or to 162 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,719 Speaker 1: confirm whether she was coming, But she didn't answer. Why 163 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: did the Star sixty seven time. I'm not sure. My 164 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: theory is he was so worked up in anticipation of 165 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: her being there that the last time I used Star 166 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: sixty seven time, my husband refused to answer cell phone. 167 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,079 Speaker 1: I'm sure we're fighting about something to do with the twins. Oh, 168 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: he gave John David a melitonin last night. He's nine, 169 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: so you're gonna end up on the Nancy Grade Show. 170 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: So he wouldn't answer the phone. I'm like, mmmmm a 171 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 1: Star sixties seven and he picked up. But I'm like, ah, hey, 172 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: I'm up anyway. So why I mean, I know I'm projecting, 173 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: but why do you use Star sixty seven to hide 174 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: your number if not for some ulterior motive? Right, Okay, 175 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: So he calls her twice. Did she pick up? She 176 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: didn't to to our knowledge, she did not pick up. Okay. 177 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: Then what happened? Well, then she gets there, she does 178 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: her job, takes a picture of the van, and she's 179 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: not seen again except by Bobby Dassy, his nephew who 180 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: lives right next door. I thought it was Brendon Dassey. 181 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: This is Bobby. This is Bobby. Wasn't involved in this, okay, 182 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: But there is a very important information from a family 183 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 1: member who works third shift. He gets up to go hunting. 184 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,839 Speaker 1: He looks out the window and he sees Teresa and 185 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: Teresa taking pictures of this van. No, it's it, And 186 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: then he sees Teresa walking to Stephen Averys trailer right 187 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: next door. He goes back in the house, gets his 188 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: hunting stuff on, he leaves, and when he leaves, Teresa's 189 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: car is there, and Teresa is not around, and Stephen 190 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: Avery is not around, and he leaves and go hunting. 191 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: When he comes home later, the car is not there, 192 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: and other people don't The time of the day was 193 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: that that he observed Teresa there about two thirty quarter 194 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: to three. When is she reported missing? She's reported missing 195 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: on November three, Thursday, and this happened on October thirty one, 196 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 1: so she's reported missing three days later, all right, and 197 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: her car is found on his lot? Correct? Okay, let 198 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: me ask about that night and the fire pit. Okay, 199 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: So Avery, Stephen Avery, I don't understand this, okay. And 200 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: I grew up in the country. I did not know 201 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: anybody that had a firehole in the backyard. When we's 202 00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: a fire pit, what is that basically was a mound 203 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 1: of dirt that he had taken like a skid ster 204 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: with a front end, scoop on it and scooped out 205 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: a big section of the dirt in the middle. That's 206 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: where they would have fires. Why fires? For what bonfires get? 207 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: The kids? Are the nephews over and people stand around it? 208 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: Are you serious, Wisconsin? I know, I know. I grew 209 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: up in the middle of nowhere. Let me tell you something. 210 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 1: I mean, we drew grew up on a red dirt 211 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: road and my grandfather dug the well and our water 212 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: would be red. Okay, But can anybody attest to having 213 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: bonfires in his backyard? Yes, they've had previous, Okay, fine, 214 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: all right, they have fires. So he's got a fire pit, 215 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: which is a hole in the dirt. Is it true, Tom, 216 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: that family or relatives or friends saw Stephen Avery tending 217 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: stirring a fire in the fire pit in the backyard 218 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 1: the day Teresa Holbat was at the him Nancy. It 219 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: is true. Both witnesses family told us about a large 220 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 1: bonfire in that backyard. Steen seeing Stephen back there tending 221 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: and watching the fire, and also seeing another person believed 222 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: to be Brendan Dassy out there with him. Who and 223 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: I recall interviewing or talking to someone that saw him 224 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: tending the fire pit. And I think it was the 225 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: girlfriend of a relative that saw him back there. Yes, 226 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: that would have been a sister in law. I believe 227 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: I saw the fire, didn't didn't go down fire enough 228 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: to see him. And also his sister's boyfriend saw that 229 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: that Okay, yes, and these then would be friends and 230 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: family saw Stephen a Re tending the fire pit that night, 231 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: both the fire and tending the fire pit being out there. 232 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: And this is the reason I'm asking, is it true 233 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: that in the fire pit were found the studs off 234 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: her daisy fluentis jens and what parts of her body 235 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: like teeth, bone that didn't burn? That is true, Nancy, 236 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: the she she was wearing daisy flentis jeans. We believe 237 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: five of these studs of the six on those genes 238 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: we recovered, and that fire pit is along with her creamens. Unfortunately, 239 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: what part of her could you actually get out of 240 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: the fire. We had a forensic anthropologist do that exam 241 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: and she found representative samples bones from every part of 242 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: her body. Do you remember when I would do Arson's 243 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: And they are so hard because first you have to 244 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: prove a crime actually happened, that it wasn't an accident, 245 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: and then you have to go from there and put 246 00:15:55,720 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: it back together. Those are hard cases. Yeah, that's very 247 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: hard to prove the case swin remains or eat the 248 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: evidence has been burned. Okay, So we've got bones, We've 249 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: got studs off her pants in the fire. Her bones 250 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: in the fire, twenty five year old girl. Now this 251 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: is something I always report on it, but I want 252 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: to ask you about it. Her car had he is 253 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: Stephen Avery's DNA on her car that was hidden back 254 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: at the back of the lot. Is that right, Yes, Nancy, 255 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: that's correct. There were four areas in her car, inside 256 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: her car that had his blood, which he denied ever 257 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: being in the car, that is, And so there are 258 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: four different areas imported that he denied it. Because if 259 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: it's innocent, I lie about it. Okay, I didn't mean interrupt. 260 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: Go ahead. Where are the four areas in front of 261 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: the car, between the seats and also by the ignition switch. 262 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: And this is a really big point. I thought that 263 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: was sweat d NA, This was blood blood. Let me 264 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: write it now, Okay, go ahead, by the ignition switch 265 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: where you would put the key in there was a 266 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: swipe pattern of blood, and that means you have an 267 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: active bleeder who is swiping making contact with that surface. 268 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: And if you look at where we later found an 269 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: injury on his middle finger, right hand, a cut that 270 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: that was fairly recent. And if you look at where 271 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: that cut was and you put the key in that 272 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 1: ignition switch and you turn it, it lines up almost 273 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 1: perfectly with that swipe of blood on the plastic. But 274 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: let me understand. So you put the key and you 275 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,360 Speaker 1: turn it, and you're saying the blood was like that, 276 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: it would swipe along the plasts. How are the cops 277 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: going to plant that? I mean, it's just like when 278 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 1: o J said they planted the dance. Yes, the cops 279 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 1: screwed up in o J. Fine, but that does not 280 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: mean Simpson didn't do it. Both things can be true here. 281 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 1: I didn't know that intricate piece of evidence that the 282 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:01,880 Speaker 1: blood was in the swish and then turning the key. 283 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: He turned the key, his finger came in contact with 284 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: the plastic next to the ignition and swiped a pattern 285 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: of blood. That is some good police work to find 286 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 1: that little bit of blood in that pattern, and to 287 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: find those uh studs and all of that that he 288 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: was burning. Did he have tires in the burning tires? 289 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 1: He burned tires, He burned a car seat, he burned wood. 290 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 1: Obviously he actually burned her clothes and that fire, bedding, 291 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:37,479 Speaker 1: et cetera. Where Okay, So there was blood between the seats. Uh, 292 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: there was blood between the two front seats. There's blood 293 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: in the second roll of the seats is a rap 294 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 1: four small suv right Uh near the I guess you 295 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: were call the door panel. When the doors opened. At 296 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:54,199 Speaker 1: that panel there there was drops. Now again indicative of 297 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: an active bleeder. You may open the door and he 298 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: drops on the inside of that got annal their rocker 299 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: panel on what you call it um so you get 300 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: you're getting different patterns that are very indictive of an 301 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: active bleeder. And if a police officer is going to 302 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: do this, there's put some blood in there, right, but 303 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: these are indicative of an active bleeder actually being in 304 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: that car. And then in the back storage area there 305 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 1: was some I believe I'm not sure, but I believe 306 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: there was some blood back there. And there was a 307 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: bullet in the garage with Teresa Hallback's DNA on its correct, 308 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 1: that's correct. Nancy I'm gonna pause and thank are awesome 309 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: sponsor or partner in today's podcast, and I'll start with 310 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 1: a story out of Racing, Wisconsin. A house catches on fire, 311 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: nobody's home. It took a while for neighbors to even 312 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 1: notice the problem, but at the end of the day 313 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: there were forty thousand dollars damages. If you're not home 314 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: when a fire starts, who will be there to save 315 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: your house? Your belonging to your home? For simply Safe 316 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: home security user Tricia simply Safe was there. She was 317 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 1: on vacation. Her home caught fire, but was simply Safe. 318 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 1: Her smoke alarm went off, The fire department was alerted 319 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: immediately and they arrived in time to save Tricia's home. 320 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: Simply Safe has round the clock professional security monitoring and 321 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: it's just four a month, round the clock, seven three monitoring. 322 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:32,360 Speaker 1: Now that is peace of mind. Get seven connection to dispatch, lightning, 323 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 1: fast response time in emergencies. Was simply Safe home security 324 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 1: order today and you get a special temper cent discount 325 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 1: simply safe dot com slash Nancy simply safe dot com 326 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 1: slash Nancy for the temper cent off your home security system. 327 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 1: Here he is King Kratz speak of the devil and 328 00:20:54,800 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: his amp shall soon appear, Ill John, Let's take questions. 329 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 1: Guys who asked the question you're not going to hear 330 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: from the lead investigator a whole lot Okay, in the 331 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: back yeah, hold on, let me repeat it. We have 332 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: a lady in the bat here, everybody. We're at Crime 333 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: Con two thousand seventeen. We are with Tom who or 334 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: I love it when they do that little because you 335 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: know they don't even know what that means? What does 336 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: it mean? I don't know did we did we ever 337 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: know what it meant? Does that mean? Race? The roof 338 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,719 Speaker 1: is falling, raised the roof kind of thing, and then 339 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: they run around, they'll get out of the bathtub. Does 340 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: anyone still do that besides your twins? I don't know where. 341 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: I don't think so anyway. Okay, So now we have 342 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 1: it from Paine Lindsay and from his posh penthouse pad 343 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: in l A telling me what that little thing? Okay 344 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: with me? Tom Fastbender and now Ken Cross both on 345 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: this case. I bet you're having a back flip with 346 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: this new motion that's been filed trying to respond to that. Well, 347 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: that's not something I ever will respond to, and I 348 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 1: don't think I probably should. It's not not something that, 349 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: uh that I need to to weigh in. It's obviously 350 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: very troubling to see the kind of allegations that were made. 351 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: And I'm sure you've talked about. I'm sorry for coming 352 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: in late, but happy to answer any questions to have 353 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: her sure. Um okay, So the question of the bat 354 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: from the lady is why didn't he crushed down the car? 355 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: Okay me before I go to the expert. Probably because 356 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: he knew the cops are watching him and he didn't 357 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: have to go get it and take it to a 358 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: facility unless he could crush them there. Could he crush 359 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 1: the cars there? Tom, Yes, I don't know why, but 360 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: that would kind of give it away, huh if they 361 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: found it crushed pace, I don't know why. What do 362 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 1: you think what happened is the week prior to that 363 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: or there about Stephen actually went down to the pit 364 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 1: and crush some cars in that car crushing car crusher 365 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 1: makes a car crushed car sandwich. There's about six of 366 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: them in there. He crushed two or three. Our belief 367 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: as he was preparing for this and he was, you know, 368 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: by all means going to crush this car. Brendan told 369 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: us that that was his intent. That was a good question. 370 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 1: Think of this. The the our Salva yard is a 371 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: business and it's operating for business. So he takes the 372 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: car down here, he hides it on Monday night. If 373 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 1: he goes down there starts crushing this thing. This is 374 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: a big diesel type car crushing. People are gonna hear that. 375 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: They're gonna know stuff's going on. But wait a minute, 376 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 1: they would probably have heard it all the time anyway, 377 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: and not thought a thing about it. By people, I'm saying, 378 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: probably more his his brother's stuff on there wondering why 379 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: Stevens down there crushing cars. But no, he did not, 380 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 1: not a lot. It was. It was mainly the owner 381 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: of the car crusher that did the crushing. But why 382 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: do you think he was about to crush the car? 383 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: Well number one, number one he indicated that to Brenda 384 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: number two. He put that car right in the vicinity 385 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 1: of the car crusher to make it easy to get 386 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 1: to that car crusher, and he couldn't do it during 387 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: the week. Then the cars are then that she's reported missing, 388 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: and there's all these search teams out there. There's an 389 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: airplane flying over checking things out. He's not gonna mess 390 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 1: around there and he doesn't want to do it. Well. 391 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: The business is open the weekend, the family goes up 392 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: in northern Wisconsin to the cottage. Everyone clears out their 393 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: clothes from noon Saturday to Monday. We have a telephone 394 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: call where he indicates that he's thinking about coming back 395 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 1: from the cabin up north on Saturday. Our belief is 396 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: that's when he was going to go back when no 397 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 1: one is around, and crushed the car. And he didn't 398 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: get a chance because the car was found Saturday morning. 399 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 1: And you know, another thing on the outside looking in, 400 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: how many times the criminals say, oh, if I had 401 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 1: just X looking back, he probably thinks I should have 402 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 1: done it, like three o'clock in the morning one night. 403 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 1: Why didn't I do it? But he had a plan 404 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 1: and his own plan messed him up. I hadn't thought 405 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:16,199 Speaker 1: of that. And see, there's a pretty good opportunity that 406 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: if you did crush the car, and everybody think about this, Uh, 407 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: we probably wouldn't have fun in the car. If you 408 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 1: don't find the car, we don't get the search warrant. 409 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: If you don't get the search warrant, he gets away 410 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 1: with the murder. So that's how close this case came 411 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 1: to us never having it solved. Absolutely, Yes, ma'am admissioned 412 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: that during the bonfire, in addition to her made there's 413 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,439 Speaker 1: a car seat, there's some times in there, right. Do 414 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: you think that he always burned higher? Does that just? 415 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 1: I know that when people are having I guess bonfires 416 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: in their backyard, they they smell awful. She We've got 417 00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: a question about why would he burn are the tires? 418 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: I think to get what to take away from the body. 419 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: The more stuff you could throw on there, it would 420 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 1: all burn down and be harder to find the body. 421 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: But White, let's go ahead, Tom. Being in an auto 422 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: salvage yard, it wasn't uncommon that they may burn tires occasionally. 423 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 1: That night he did burn tires. That's verified through witness accounts. 424 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: Tires burn hot, very hot, and they stink and they 425 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,479 Speaker 1: stink and a lot of smoke and they have some 426 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: length to their burn. And we actually had our arson investigator, 427 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: who's an expert in that area, testify to that about 428 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 1: the that that would be an excellent fuel to burn 429 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: what he burned. Also, the car seat has has that 430 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 1: foam that that is also a very hot burning fuel, 431 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: so the fuel was absolutely ideal for the job that 432 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 1: he was doing. Yes, ma'am, Well there was the bullet, 433 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: and the question is how did she die? Is that 434 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: your question? I don't think so, because there was the 435 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: bullet found in the garage with her DNA on it. 436 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: And according to Dascy, the nephew who now there have 437 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: been troubles with his conviction because it is now claimed 438 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 1: he had a low i Q, which some of his 439 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: tests showed he had a medium range i Q, and 440 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: that he was tricked into giving a confession. I didn't 441 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: seem very smart though, so I'm just that's what I 442 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,439 Speaker 1: got just from watching from watching him, So he's not smart. 443 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: What does that mean? He can't kill somebody? I don't know. 444 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: I think that it would make you think twice about 445 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: his confession. I'm not saying that, did you go to 446 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: law skill pack? No, but I can I can tell 447 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 1: when someone's uh smart or not smart. Okay, I'm sorry, 448 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: but I don't see. This is a disclaimer in the 449 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 1: constitution said all the people that pay lindsay said they're 450 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,640 Speaker 1: not smart can't be prosecuted from her. You're correct, that's 451 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: actually is actually a question for you guys. More so, 452 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: let's keep she's the one that asked the question, and 453 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 1: it's going somewhere. Did she die from a gunshot wound? Yes, 454 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: she died from a gunshot wound. Uh. Of the fragments 455 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: that were found in the fire, there were skeletal or 456 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: cranial pieces. Our friendsic anthropologists found two bullet entrance wounds 457 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: in pieces of those uh, those cranial bones indicative of 458 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 1: entry wounds of of a bullet. We found the bullets 459 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: or a bullet in the garage. I don't know if 460 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: that's the exact bullet that went through it. Did it did, 461 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: but we don't know if it's it went that's the 462 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: exact bullet that went through the skullar and too other 463 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: soft tissues or whatever got it. And I think importantly 464 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: we never claimed that the bullet that was recovered was 465 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: one of the two that went through the skull. Probably 466 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: not as a matter of fact, because it as those 467 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: of you know, twenty two caliburn ballistics, a bullet kind 468 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: of rattles around on once it goes into a skull, 469 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: and so that's why it likely would have remained inside 470 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: and likely wouldn't have been the bullet that was recovered 471 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: in the back that probably went through soft tissue. Although 472 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: a DNA of Teresa went on there, probably not at 473 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: one of the skull of UH projectiles UH. Nor did 474 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: we ever claim that, despite what ms Elner putting in 475 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: her brief a couple of days ago. So that's I 476 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: think an important So here's my question. If you're on 477 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: the jury, that's how you get bogged down and the 478 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: the intricacies of the case. This is what I need 479 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 1: to know. A bullet but to raise the Hallbocks, d 480 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: n A is in Avery's garage and her body has 481 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: been incinerated. She's dead, burned dead. So this was done 482 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: before she was burned. And I don't care if it 483 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: went through her brain or where it went through. I 484 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: know she's dead and there's a bullet with her DNA 485 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: on it. But Dassy, in his statement which I have 486 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: watched some of it's on most of us on video, 487 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: I think, said that Stephen Avery either tied or chained 488 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: her to a bit, cut off her hair, raped her 489 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: as she's chained there, then made Dascy rape her. According 490 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: to Dacy, he was forced and then Avery shot her 491 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: dead and he looked away. Where is Renee still in here? 492 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: Renee stand up? How many times have I prosecuted cases 493 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: where at that exact crucial moment, like the shitty my 494 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: chief witness looked away? Why would you look away at 495 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: that moment because they don't want to testify it. So 496 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: when I heard he looked away at the moment, that 497 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: one moment, I didn't believe that. But that is what 498 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: Teresa endured before her death. This was a very traumatic 499 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: event for this young man. He didn't want to go there, 500 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: and he actually talked about when he was younger, the 501 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: family had to kill a family cat and he had, uh, 502 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: you know, he couldn't launch that. He couldn't see that, 503 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: and that was very traumatic to him. So when we 504 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: asked him, did you didn't have trouble raping her tom 505 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: chained to a bed? No? I may excuse me, but no, no, 506 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: he didn't. Okay, So I don't want to traumatize Brendan 507 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: Dacy any further. But he did rate Teresa hallback as 508 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: she was chained to a bed, and I was that right? 509 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 1: That's correct? Okay, question MC there in the bat Let 510 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: me repeat, A gentleman in the bat wants to know, 511 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: is that the third confession where he talked about shooting 512 00:31:55,520 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: that's a good question. Yes, well that that's a good question. Uh, 513 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: we don't have enough time to talk about the whole 514 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: interviews and all of the interviews. He's trying to pin 515 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: you down, but suggests that you fan it to him, 516 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: and if if you did just that is not unconstitutional. 517 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: I don't like it. But when somebody just sits there 518 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: and go, finally, did you shoot her in the head? 519 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: Didn't you? And you're waiting for an answer, I mean 520 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: I could hear myself saying something like that. Is somebody 521 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: wouldn't answer me. Well, the question what he's talking about 522 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: is we asked several times what else happened to her? 523 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: What else happened to something with the head? And he 524 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: talked about cutting her neck, he talked about punching her 525 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: and Steven's not him, but Stephen strangling her. And then 526 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: my partner asked, well, all right, who shot her in 527 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: the head? Okay, he had every right and opportunity to 528 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: say I don't know, or or nobody I didn't. What 529 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: did he respond to that? Almost immediately he did? Stephen, 530 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: he did. And then when asked to elaborate on that 531 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: he said he shot her with his twenty two. And 532 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: the point here is that twenty two, that bullet we 533 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: found forensically matched up with Steven Averso which was above 534 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: his headboard in his bedroom, which is where Brendan told 535 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: us that twenty two was the statements he made before 536 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: the shooting in the head question. Only Brendan knows whether 537 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: those are true. We did not feed him them statements. 538 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: We just kept asking what happened? Something happened to her head. 539 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: We didn't say, did this happen to her head? He 540 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: told us I cut her neck, I punched or he 541 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: punched her, et cetera. You know what, I want to 542 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 1: honor what he's saying there in the back, Sir, Could 543 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: you stand back up again? Because when you say the 544 00:33:55,160 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: Netflix documentary, it looks so real. And I would have 545 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: questions too if I didn't already know what I knew. 546 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: You know, if I didn't already know about the case 547 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,879 Speaker 1: and had not investigated the case and talked to Avery himself, 548 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 1: I might have gotten taken in hook line and Sinker. 549 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 1: So tell me what are you trying to ask? Do 550 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 1: you think Brendan Dacy was forced to give and I 551 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: don't care. I don't care the answer. Do you think 552 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:45,720 Speaker 1: it was forced to give a confession? Yes, I agree 553 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: with you. You know you are with you some time, 554 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: right da. I want to finish here what he's saying. Okay, 555 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: so let me ask you this. I agree. Wait a minute, 556 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 1: I want to ask you a question. So do you 557 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:23,919 Speaker 1: believe Avery is guilty? Okay? Let me ask you about this. 558 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 1: Do you think Dascy raped Haulback? I don't know. I 559 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: don't think Dascy shot her, and I don't think Dascy 560 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 1: strangled her. I just don't. I don't know why. It's 561 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: just gut feeling, but I do think he raped her 562 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,840 Speaker 1: because the way he said it was kind of like 563 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:48,799 Speaker 1: I didn't want to do it, but he made me 564 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 1: do it. Why would Stephen involve printing at all? I 565 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: don't know what this is to you, guys? Why do 566 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: you think I'm gonna come back to you? Why do 567 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 1: you think that that's confusing to me? To him? You 568 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,720 Speaker 1: don't hard to answer that question. Why would he involve? 569 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 1: If you had to answer that question, why would Stephen 570 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 1: do that? Yeah, this is the courtroom. If you would 571 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: just what's your best hypothesis? I think he wanted a 572 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: partner in crime. I think he wanted someone there. And 573 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: why do you choose Brendan? Maybe he didn't have anybody else, 574 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: Maybe both Dukes wasn't available. Maybe why why not Brendon? 575 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:34,320 Speaker 1: Because Brendan was easily manipulated and then easily convinced. Brendan 576 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,800 Speaker 1: was easily manipulated. Yes by him, that could be true. 577 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 1: Pain lindsay that he is easily manipulated. But he could 578 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:47,879 Speaker 1: be manipulated and have rape to raise the hall back. 579 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: Those could both be true. For the record, I think 580 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 1: that Stephen is guilty. I'm just questioning Brendan's guilt. I 581 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 1: think that he raped Hern did not kill her. And 582 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,040 Speaker 1: I think the fact that he was there but he 583 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:04,320 Speaker 1: got a jail for he went jail for murder because 584 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 1: that is a felony murder. If I can weigh in 585 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,399 Speaker 1: on this, hey the hey do you thank you? Oh yeah, 586 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: the prosecutor? Okay, Brendan was there and he helped. Those 587 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 1: are the two putting it down into lay terms. Those 588 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 1: are the two elements of piping and party to the crime. 589 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: Was he there and did he help? Okay? And so 590 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: in the Brendan Dascy prosecution, which is a separate prosecution 591 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,319 Speaker 1: from Avery. And by the way, most of you know 592 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,879 Speaker 1: that Brendan's statement was never used in the Steven every case, 593 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,399 Speaker 1: never presented at all, never even even brought that in 594 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: Avery was convicted mostly on the forensic evidence, which was 595 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 1: really compelling, So there wasn't any reason to do that. Well, 596 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 1: we we tried to make a deal with Brendan. We 597 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,400 Speaker 1: tried to and because of of Brendan's Fifth Amendment rights 598 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: against self incrimination, we either had to make a deal 599 00:37:58,120 --> 00:37:59,840 Speaker 1: with him give him some kind of immunity, which we 600 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:04,479 Speaker 1: were willing to do. Uh. And Brendan rejected our last 601 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: plea offer. We offered Brendon fifteen years in prison, which 602 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:10,879 Speaker 1: was he'd be out in about three years from now, 603 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: by the way, and it wasn't Brendan who turned it down. 604 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,319 Speaker 1: Wasn't even his attorney who told him to turn it down. 605 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: It was his grandfather who called him and said, you 606 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,840 Speaker 1: have to reject that plea bargain, not so much because 607 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: what it does to your case, but because it hurts 608 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: Steven's case, because it's going to hurt his chances of 609 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,719 Speaker 1: an acquittal. Uh. And we want you Brendan to go 610 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: to We want you to go to trial on the 611 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 1: first green intentional homicide. Even if you're convicted, it's better 612 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,760 Speaker 1: off for Stephen if you do that. Can you imagine 613 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: a developmentally disabled sixteen year old who needs the support 614 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,799 Speaker 1: of his family members and the advice he gets is 615 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:55,359 Speaker 1: and talking about him being developmentally disabled, which he is, 616 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: which he may be. I think, why aren't we talking 617 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,320 Speaker 1: about out the raped dead girl. I'm telling you because 618 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:08,759 Speaker 1: because it impacted his decision making. All right, it wasn't 619 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 1: because of his behavior what he was convicted for, but 620 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,959 Speaker 1: after that, what was it? In a nutshell, Brendan Dacy 621 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 1: involved himself in in the rape. I'm very convinced that 622 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,760 Speaker 1: he he convinced or excuse me, that that he raped Teresa. 623 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 1: He also carried her out to the garage, participated, not 624 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: in an active way, but participated in her death. They 625 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 1: threw her in the back of her own, uh the 626 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 1: own cargo area of her vehicle. And before they decided together, 627 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 1: that is, Brendan and Stephen decided together that it was 628 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: better to burn her than it was to put her 629 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:46,319 Speaker 1: in the pond. They were gonna put her body in 630 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 1: the pond. They didn't think there was enough water in 631 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,719 Speaker 1: the pond, and so they made a joint decision, or 632 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: at least a decision to burn the body. Brendan was 633 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: involved throughout there was he the moving force. No, wol 634 00:39:57,680 --> 00:39:59,919 Speaker 1: Brendan Dasky had done this himself. No, he's a sixty 635 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,399 Speaker 1: year old kid who likes playing video games. We've got 636 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 1: a lot of sympathy for Brendan Dascy. But after offering 637 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 1: Brendan a fifteen year deal, after he turned it down 638 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,839 Speaker 1: and said prove it, go to trial, our hands were 639 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,360 Speaker 1: tied to Nancy and we had nothing left at that point. 640 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: Then to go to trial, to convict him of his 641 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 1: involvement and to leave it up to the judge what 642 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,640 Speaker 1: the the sentence was going to be. We never thought 643 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,239 Speaker 1: he should get life imprisonment. He didn't, but we were 644 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,320 Speaker 1: still upset and and today are still upset with the 645 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: kind of advice that he got, which was really I 646 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 1: think a disservice to that six year Right up here 647 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 1: was the question, I'm sorry, what now? Okay? The question 648 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:57,840 Speaker 1: is why do I think Brandon was not coerced into 649 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:09,920 Speaker 1: having sex with Tory saw It. I think that Brendan 650 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 1: Dascy raped Tersea Hallback. Okay, there's yeah, Okay. Apparently Tersea 651 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 1: Hallback Tom was begging, please don't do this. Teresa Hollowaf 652 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 1: was begging for life, crying, screaming. So I mean, yeah, well, 653 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 1: he's a sixteen year old guy that watches TV, that 654 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 1: plays video games, that is in school. I think he 655 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 1: was still in school. Correct, he was still in school 656 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,680 Speaker 1: and he was operating. He had a couple of classes, 657 00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:07,840 Speaker 1: one or two classes there were she's chained up, begging 658 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,800 Speaker 1: and crying to live. Um, I don't think that's having 659 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,880 Speaker 1: sex with somebody. I think that's raping them. Those of 660 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:20,440 Speaker 1: you that attended yesterday's session got to see Brendan Dacy 661 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:24,319 Speaker 1: in his own words, say that it was Stephen Avery 662 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,680 Speaker 1: that said, why don't you go ahead and have sex 663 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 1: with her? And here's the troubling part. But this is 664 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,719 Speaker 1: this is where I'm going though. He said do it 665 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 1: for me. You meagine an uncle saying that to a 666 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:36,759 Speaker 1: sixteen year old, I want you to do it for me. 667 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,520 Speaker 1: That might go to your your question before Nancy about 668 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,640 Speaker 1: trying to get him involved. You know, once he gets 669 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 1: Brendan involved, he buys his silence, right, he buys his 670 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: silence from that, Brendan Dacy made these statements um to 671 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: law enforcement, and I'm jumping around here a little bit, 672 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:56,920 Speaker 1: but made these statements to law enforcement without the kind 673 00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,280 Speaker 1: of coercion that you see. He made six difference patements 674 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,000 Speaker 1: to law enforcement. You saw snippets of one of them 675 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:05,399 Speaker 1: in making a Murderer. So unless you see the whole 676 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,880 Speaker 1: body of what it was that he said, including some 677 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,560 Speaker 1: of the clips that we showed yesterday, you're gonna come 678 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 1: away with making a murderer with that same opinion. Well, 679 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,799 Speaker 1: they all the same statements or they all different. There 680 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,840 Speaker 1: were differences in all the statements. The important part was 681 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,719 Speaker 1: from the first statement on he clearly was lying in 682 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 1: the first statement witness interview, not a suspect interview, clearly 683 00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,759 Speaker 1: lying and clearly trying to protect Stephen. Second interview, he 684 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,240 Speaker 1: tells the truth about a few things. Clearly is lying 685 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:36,880 Speaker 1: about other things which we know from witness statements and 686 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:42,440 Speaker 1: physical evidence. Clearly still protecting Stephen Avery. Clearly something is 687 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:47,280 Speaker 1: bothering him physically, you can see it eyes, his reactions, everything. 688 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 1: How do you know what the truth was is hurting him? 689 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,440 Speaker 1: How do I know that it's true? Well, here's an example. 690 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,040 Speaker 1: First statement, he denies a fire that week. We know 691 00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,279 Speaker 1: there was a fire, We know he was by the fire, right, okay. 692 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:04,160 Speaker 1: Second interview he admits to a fire, but chooses to 693 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 1: stay away from Monday Halloween and says it might have 694 00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 1: been Thursday or Wednesday. Third interview at the school, he 695 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,040 Speaker 1: starts admitting that he was out by the fire, now 696 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,960 Speaker 1: admits to it that it's Halloween, admits that he helped 697 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,319 Speaker 1: with the fire and saw body parts. Fourth interview at 698 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:25,600 Speaker 1: the at the resort, he finally admits to helping clean 699 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,840 Speaker 1: up using gasoline, paint, thinner and bleach in the garage 700 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,239 Speaker 1: and getting bleach on his pants, which we find and collaborate. 701 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,040 Speaker 1: So each interview, and it's important to recognize they were 702 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:39,640 Speaker 1: all witness interviews. We didn't treat him as a suspect. 703 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,160 Speaker 1: Even the start of the third day or the March 704 00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,040 Speaker 1: first interview. We didn't think he was a suspect. We 705 00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,040 Speaker 1: didn't think he was actively involved. We just thought he 706 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,200 Speaker 1: knew more. Why did we go March first or to 707 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:53,360 Speaker 1: the school, because we had indications that he was hurting, 708 00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,880 Speaker 1: he was crying, he was losing weight. Something was bothering 709 00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,880 Speaker 1: this boy. He was told he told his cousin about 710 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,760 Speaker 1: bad things about body parts, about the worry about blood 711 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,880 Speaker 1: coming up through concrete, uh, stuff like that, and that 712 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 1: garage floor had cracks in it. Concrete garage floor. These 713 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,200 Speaker 1: are the things that we're leading us to keep talking 714 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:18,360 Speaker 1: to him in the knowledge that he was intentionally lying 715 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:20,840 Speaker 1: and intentionally not telling us the truth about stuff and 716 00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:25,880 Speaker 1: probably protecting Stephen. Within fifteen minutes approximately of that interview 717 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:30,120 Speaker 1: on March one, he pretty much blows us away and 718 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,960 Speaker 1: tells us that he participated in the rape of of 719 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:38,360 Speaker 1: Teresa Halbach. We didn't feed him that. We were asking 720 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:40,919 Speaker 1: him questions about what happened. You know, you got into 721 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:42,839 Speaker 1: the trailer, what you do next, what'd you do next? 722 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,520 Speaker 1: What did he make you do? He saw her down there, Stephen, 723 00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,879 Speaker 1: then I just can put it do it for me? 724 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 1: She what it feels like. Brendan later an interview admits 725 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,480 Speaker 1: when asked, why did you do this? Because I wanted 726 00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:01,120 Speaker 1: to see what it feels like. There's a lot of 727 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,480 Speaker 1: detail that Brendan provided in his interview that I don't 728 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:06,120 Speaker 1: know what. Yeah, I could not come up with that 729 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,680 Speaker 1: if I if I was lying, impossible. It was very 730 00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:14,560 Speaker 1: indicative memory of something that he had been through. You know, 731 00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:18,440 Speaker 1: when I would interview witnesses and was investigating a case, 732 00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:24,200 Speaker 1: when somebody's lying, their story is not rich with detail, 733 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:29,080 Speaker 1: like I wanted to see what it felt like, I 734 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,239 Speaker 1: mean the details that Brendan Dacy put in there. And 735 00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:37,520 Speaker 1: again my big concern is Stephen Avery. I do believe 736 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,239 Speaker 1: that Brendan Dacy has a very has a low i 737 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:45,720 Speaker 1: Q and I think that he was duped and used, 738 00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:51,640 Speaker 1: But I still believe he raped Therese the hallback and 739 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,200 Speaker 1: I don't think he killed her, but I think he 740 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:59,400 Speaker 1: was part and parcel and did everything that he just said. 741 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,319 Speaker 1: This is why the truthfulness of statements or whether it 742 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:05,520 Speaker 1: ought to be believed is left to a jury to 743 00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,040 Speaker 1: twelve people looking at that, because the richness of detail 744 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,240 Speaker 1: that that Nancy's talking about is what we're talking about 745 00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,480 Speaker 1: answers like I wanted to know what it felt like, 746 00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,400 Speaker 1: or that you were at yesterday's talk, you got to 747 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:21,680 Speaker 1: hear Brendan say I'm not old enough to have a 748 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,920 Speaker 1: kid yet. Well, think about that as naive as that is, 749 00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,000 Speaker 1: all right, and and the level of sophistication being as 750 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,480 Speaker 1: low as it is, that rings true, Folks, that's the 751 00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,840 Speaker 1: kind of thing that a jury watched. Jury got to 752 00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:38,839 Speaker 1: see the entire three hour confession of Brendan Dascy. They 753 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,759 Speaker 1: got to hear details like that, I'm not old enough 754 00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,160 Speaker 1: to have a kid yet. That's the kind of thing 755 00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,399 Speaker 1: that a sixteen year old who is feeling bad about 756 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:50,759 Speaker 1: what happened but also doesn't have the sophistication that adults do, 757 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:55,000 Speaker 1: and sure as heck, isn't something that the officers are 758 00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:57,439 Speaker 1: feeding to him. He came up with all that his own. 759 00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,279 Speaker 1: Coming up on the next episode of Crime Story with 760 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,960 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, we turned to Up and Vanished podcast creator 761 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:08,560 Speaker 1: Payne Lindsay for discussion about the Terra Grinstead murder investigation. 762 00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:13,680 Speaker 1: We promise it becomes heated and Stephen Avery, prosecutor Ken Kratz, 763 00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:17,000 Speaker 1: and investigator Tom fast Vender are still with us for more. 764 00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:21,200 Speaker 1: Will post episode two of our live Crime con edition 765 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:25,879 Speaker 1: of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Tuesday and again. If 766 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,640 Speaker 1: you're not there when a fire starts, who will be 767 00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,239 Speaker 1: there to save your home with? Simply save home security 768 00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:37,280 Speaker 1: your smoke detectors, immediately alert emergency services at the first 769 00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:40,800 Speaker 1: sign of a fire. Get timber sent off your system. Today, 770 00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:45,160 Speaker 1: it's simply safe dot com slash nancy. That's simply safe 771 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:50,640 Speaker 1: dot com slash Nancy. I'm Nancy Grace Crime Story, signing off, 772 00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:51,880 Speaker 1: goodbye friend,