1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,240 Speaker 1: P I Magazine is the most respected magazine of the 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: professional investigator, featuring stories and articles on current topics, equipment reviews, 3 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:12,719 Speaker 1: investigative tips, and practical advice for the professional investigator. Don't 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: miss a single issue of PI Magazine. Subscribe today at 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 1: PI magazine dot com. Use this show's promotional code for 6 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: your special discount at p I magazine dot com. Subscribe today, 7 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: use promo code Nancy for your special discount. That's promo 8 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: code Nancy. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM 9 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: Triumph Channel one thirty two. Can you imagine going to 10 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: your doctor, Ladies, you're gynecologist, man, I really don't know 11 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: what to equate that too. I guess a urologist for 12 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: a prostate exam. I don't know, and frankly, I don't 13 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: want to think about that right now. Okay, I haven't 14 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: had a second cup of yet, But imagine going to 15 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: your doctor and then suddenly you find out your doctor 16 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: has sued you for a million dollars. Goodbye savings account, 17 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: Goodbye I r A, Goodbye children's tuition savings plan, goodbye house, 18 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: goodbye car I Meancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank 19 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 1: you for being with us. That seemingly is just what 20 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 1: happened to a woman joining us right now. But first, 21 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:39,320 Speaker 1: to Jennifer Tzikowski, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, let 22 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: me understand this. So she goes to the gynecologist and 23 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: then she gets sued for a million dollars what happened 24 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: in the examination room. So there are so many layers 25 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: to the story that that have just boggled me, left 26 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: me shocked. Michelle Levine was merely looking to get her 27 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: annual exam. This happened in July of truth in seventeen. 28 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: As you said, you know, millions of women do this 29 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: every year, and annual exams were typically covered through her 30 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: insurance with no auto pocket costs. She made an appointment 31 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: with Dr June's Song of New York Robotic Gynecology and 32 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:20,399 Speaker 1: Women's Health. She found him from end line used website 33 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,839 Speaker 1: and so being a trusted source, Michelle said she never 34 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: thought twice about making the appointment with him on the Okay, 35 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: wait a minute, wait a minute, who wo wo wo woa, 36 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: Jennifer Sakowski, you know how much I love you, right, 37 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: But for us mere mortals, we have to take it 38 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: one sentence at a time. We can't. We can't take 39 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: it like a bullet. Okay, so let me understand this. 40 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: She has to go get her annual exam, which all women, 41 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: all people need to do preventative. She goes for her 42 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: annual exam, she finds this doctor you said through n 43 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:02,399 Speaker 1: y U, one of my old alma maters, New York University. Okay, 44 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: what happened then? So in the other part of that 45 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: ny U when she went to them about all this said, 46 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: he's voluntarily affiliated. Um, just doesn't work directly for them, 47 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: but he is advertised on their website that she found 48 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: them on. So she goes to this appointment on that day. 49 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 1: Michelle said, Doctor Song never gave her a pelvic exam 50 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: as is usually done at your regular annual exams, but 51 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: instead asked her, wait, wait, wait, did you say she's 52 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: going for a gynecological exam? Right? Yes, yes, you don't 53 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: want to pop up with cervical cancer for Pete site White. 54 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: How can you go for your annual pelvic exam and 55 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: then nobody looks at your pelvic area? How does that happen? Exactly? 56 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: That's it's it's mind bottling. Instead, doctor Song asked her 57 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: she was experiencing menstrual cramps, and he subsequently performed an ultrasound, 58 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: but keeping mine, Michelle said she told doctor Song that 59 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: she wasn't experiencing any cramps at the time of the exam, 60 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: but that she has experienced menstrual cramping as millions of 61 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: women do. She really thought it was protocol, it is practice, 62 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: and she noted the name of the practice being New 63 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: York Robotic Dynecology, and she thought, oh, maybe I'm getting 64 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: a fancy, you know, annual and this is different than 65 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: than a regular doctor than I'm used to. So she 66 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: goes through all that. Then she hits the bill. It 67 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 1: was four hundred and twenty seven dollars, which she would 68 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: have to stay out of pocket, and found out her 69 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:45,559 Speaker 1: insurance was built overt hundred dollars by Songs Practice all 70 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 1: for this annual exam she thought would be fully covered 71 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 1: covered and it had always been the case through her 72 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 1: insurance in the past. So she did what many people 73 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 1: would do. She called the doctor's office to inquire about 74 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: the charges. She said the office wouldn't budge on the 75 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: price scene, so from there she did also what many 76 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: people would do after an unpleasant experience, and she took 77 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: that matter to Yelpac health Grades to review the doctor 78 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: she felt hat ripped her off so other women could 79 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 1: be warned. So those reviews led to Song finling a 80 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: one million dollar defamation lawsuit against her, and she has 81 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:31,799 Speaker 1: already spent approximately twenty dollars in court costs for the case. 82 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: There was just a long pause, Jennifer Sakowski, because I'm 83 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: actually speechless. I'm feeling is that I must be missing 84 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: a piece of this puzzle. I mean, well, a dollar 85 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: bill for an annual pelvic where you'd get a PAP 86 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: snare and you don't get a pelvic exam, which is 87 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 1: why you're there. That along with a breast exam? A 88 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 1: million dollar lawsuit? What did she say in her yelp 89 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: review that could possibly justify a million dollars? Whoa a 90 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 1: million dollar lawsuit? Okay? What? What? What was said in 91 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 1: the yelp review? She basically laid down exactly what happened, 92 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: just to warn other women um and she said it 93 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: by doing a Yelp review she had heard from other women. 94 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: Not only that, but the staff itself had replied to 95 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 1: her Yelp review saying that um in ultrasound was protocol 96 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: for all of the annuals at Dr Song's practice. So 97 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: it wasn't just Michelle from what she was seeing being 98 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 1: ripped off, but all of these women who were thinking, 99 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: you know, that that this was standard, that they had 100 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 1: to get this done, and that was not the case. 101 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: So Dr Song was floored. And you know, he has 102 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: he has the money, it's the power to do it, 103 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: to take her down with this one million dollar lawsuit. 104 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: And as Michelle and I have talked about, what seems 105 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: to be the saddest, craziest part of this all is 106 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: that anyone with that kind of money or should I 107 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: say power, can get offended by something as small as 108 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: a Yelp review, and they can turn it around because 109 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: they have the money to do so. And someone like 110 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: Michelle is forced to spend her life savings on a 111 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: frivolous long join me right now. The woman now facing 112 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: a one million dollar lawsuit because of her Yelp review 113 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 1: of a gynecologist, Michelle Lavaine. Michelle, I've read all about 114 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: your story and I it's hard for me to even 115 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: absorb what's happening. Do you mind telling me your story 116 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: from the beginning. UM. I found Doctor Song through n 117 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: y U land Gown website. He has his own page. 118 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: It's very professional looking and they're his practices listed everything. 119 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: And I trusted that institution, so I chose a doctor 120 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: from their site, UM and I went to him for 121 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: an annual exam. I had just recently switched insurances, so 122 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: he was only the second gynecologist I've ever went to 123 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: for an annual exam. Um And, as Jennifer said, UM, 124 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: I went in expecting to get annual That's what I booked. 125 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: When I went in, I asked me while I was there, 126 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: I said I was there for an annual, and they 127 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: all agreed with me. Doctor Song took me into his 128 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: office and started asking me questions about my history, which 129 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: was pretty normal. Um And towards the end of that interview, 130 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: he was again just asking me if I ever got 131 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: menstrual cramps, and like most women, I responded yes. He 132 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: asked me exactly two questions pertaining to that, how much 133 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 1: they hurt on the scale of one to ten when 134 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: I had them on their worst days, and where and 135 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,599 Speaker 1: if it ever the pain ever radiated anywhere like it 136 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: does for most women. I told him to my legs, 137 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: and I thought I was just answering questions because he 138 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: asked me other questions about my health. Um, nothing else 139 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:33,199 Speaker 1: was indicated that he was concerned about it. He didn't 140 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 1: ask me if I had had them checked by other 141 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: doctors or it was a concern of mine. He just said, okay, 142 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: now we're going to give you an ultras sound. And 143 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: that seems a little weird to me, and maybe I 144 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: should have asked more about it, but I don't know. 145 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: I just always trusted doctors, so I was like, okay, 146 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: I mean I'm here for an annuel, so I guess 147 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: I'm getting an ultress sound. UM. I don't recall their 148 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: being any other equipment in the office. Really. Um, I 149 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: wasn't weighed, none of that stuff that usually happens when 150 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: I go to a doctor. He did give me a 151 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: pass from here, but he did not give me any 152 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: of the other examinations like the pelvic or the breath 153 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: that's part of an annual. So I went with the ultrasound. 154 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: It didn't feel right what it was done, and I left. 155 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: Next thing, I know, I'm getting a bill. I don't 156 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 1: think he successfully charged my insurance because I had a deductible. 157 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 1: The whole cost went to me. He tried to charge 158 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: my insurance for over three dollars, but they said, no, 159 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: you can only charge her for this amount. So the 160 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: total was four and twenty four plus the fifty dollar 161 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: copay that I wasn't supposed to have to pay. I 162 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: called the office about this bill when I get it, 163 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: thinking it's a mistake and I couldn't believe it. Um 164 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 1: instantly on the other side, they got very aggressive and 165 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 1: they told me that I was there for pain with 166 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: teen radiating down my legs, and I instantly remembered that 167 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: question about the cramp. I was like, oh my god, 168 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: he just took that question and totally flipped it around 169 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 1: and turned it into the reason I was there. And UM, 170 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: they were very aggressive with me. They told me that 171 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: I was there for pain, and they were pretty much 172 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: essentially telling me that I had no choice over my visit. 173 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: Um Dr Songs. His opinion was that I had tell 174 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 1: Victaine and I should have all of this and if 175 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: I don't agree with him, I'm lying. And I've been 176 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: called a liar ever since the day I called about 177 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: the bill, and UM, I think since then, UM some 178 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 1: of his staff have come. I have a go fund 179 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: me page and I've had his staff, calm and and 180 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 1: and harassed me and promote his business on my own 181 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: fundraising page. And they're just still all over the internet 182 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: where they can just saying yeah, but you're only hearing 183 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: one aside, she's a liar. And I don't think that 184 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: people understand that. It isn't even them calling me a liar. 185 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,959 Speaker 1: It's the whole action of even just suing your patient 186 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: and um. And in that first month of the lawsuit, 187 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: his lawyers posted all my medical records on the public 188 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 1: court system so anyone could see it. And they don't 189 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: ever seem to even care about that. But like, no, no, no, 190 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: you don't understand she's lying. Hold on, Michelle, Michelle White 191 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: a minute, White a minute meant all of your medical 192 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 1: records We're posted on a public webside by the doctor's 193 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: office by his lawyers. Yes, oh, my stars, all my 194 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: bills and everything, my bills, my insurance information, said how 195 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: much the ductive boy had, how much dama date, even 196 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,839 Speaker 1: my photo just in case you weren't sure they were mine, 197 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: with my name, I addressed my birthday. My driver's license, 198 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: the I D number was blocked out, but the rest 199 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: of my driver's license was plainest day. And um, when 200 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 1: when you say your medical records, do you mean not 201 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: just your billing and address and so forth, but your 202 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: actual medical records regarding your health. Yes, the entire medical record, 203 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: the details of the sonogram, whatever mental health Mossy took 204 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: on me that day, although I did really he did 205 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: write down that he gave me an exam, and that 206 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: was another time when I noticed. I'm like, oh my god, 207 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: he wrote down did I had a breast and pelvic exam? 208 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,719 Speaker 1: But I didn't. And um, of course the vitals were 209 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: left blank because I don't even remember him having a 210 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: scale in his office. So yeah, the whole thing was there. 211 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,079 Speaker 1: Let me understand this. You're saying he did perform a 212 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 1: perhaps me. Yeah, isn't that what a pell that exam includes? No, Um, 213 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: I know a lot of women know this. There's more. 214 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: The pap smear is just you know, the screening for 215 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: cervical cancer. Usually they feel around and make sure everything's 216 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: in its bright order down there, I mean with the speculum, 217 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: and they go in and visually examine your reproductive organs 218 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: and do U. Yeah, okay, so are you sure that 219 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: did not occur when he was taking the PEP smere um. Well, no, 220 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: because on the records there's more details on it, Like 221 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: he thoroughly examined me. A pap smear is just a 222 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: quick test. It takes a little piece. Um, it's only 223 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: a part of the that's true. That's true. That's where 224 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: they use like the speculum where the pelvic exam they 225 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: actually like usually go in like with their fingers and 226 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: feel um skilled reproductive organs. From my experience, well, yeah, 227 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: because you're pelvic organs such as uterus and ovaries cannot 228 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: be seen from outside your body. The doctor must pal 229 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: pay the abdomen and pelvis as part of the exam, 230 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: and during that time he she or he presses down 231 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: on the outside of the lower abdomen and physically fills 232 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: your reproductive organs to make sure that they can't find 233 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: a growth, a lump, a sister, or anything they find 234 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: out of the ordinary. They check the size and shape 235 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: of your uterus and ovaries. They determine if there are 236 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: any tender areas, unusual, gross and um. They do a 237 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: rectal exam as well. That's something you'll definitely remember, Michelle 238 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: Levine when you say they came on to your go 239 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: fund me or your website and harass you. What do 240 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: you mean by that? Him his filling manager. She wrote 241 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: about a string of five maybe six comments, um promoting 242 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: the business again. I don't understand why, because um, why 243 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: she's doing this? She um technically was saying how great 244 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: it is that they give everyone an ultrasound, and how 245 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: everyone is thankful for it, and and you know how 246 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: great they are and how they do accept criticism. But 247 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: I'm just lying and they don't know why I'm I'm 248 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 1: doing this to them again, behaving like victims, even though 249 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: I'm not the only bad review they have. And there's 250 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: other people who said the same exact things with me 251 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: in their reviews. If they didn't get exams, and you 252 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: know they were charged for ultrasounds, that they're um. One 253 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: woman said her exam was misclassified as pell victim. UM. 254 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: I have a friend who's a radiologist and she told 255 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: me that, I mean, again, I need this confirmed, but 256 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: she said it. You can only give an ultrasound if 257 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: the patient's complaining of pel victaine. So I wonder how 258 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 1: many people that went to this office he wrote down 259 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: pel victaine four. I could understand if you was some 260 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: doctor that didn't take insurance, and you wanted to have 261 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: an ultrasound just for the sake of having and he 262 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: wanted to charge you. That's fine and dandy, but he's 263 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 1: taking insurance and trying to and and and changing the 264 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: reason for people's visits so that he can put the 265 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:35,360 Speaker 1: claim in. Well, this is what we know. Michelle posts 266 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: an internet complaint on Yelp. Millions of people do do 267 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 1: it every day. She gave a one star reviewed my understanding, 268 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: and suddenly she is slapped with a one million dollar lawsuit. 269 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 1: She's already paid over twenty thousand dollars to defend herself 270 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: in this defamation lawsuit. Now, according to doctor Songs lawyers, 271 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: they call Michelle's reviews quote outright lies. That quote can 272 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 1: inflict serious damage to a medical practice or small business. 273 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 1: Quote just because you're allowed to and are able to, 274 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 1: doesn't mean you should do so without reservations about what 275 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: you say. And that is Ariva Martin, one of Songs lawyers, quote, 276 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: your First Amendment right does not give you the right 277 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: to defame someone. Now, the review was only up for 278 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: sixteen days. It was a one star review. Michelle, what 279 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: are you going to do? How are a million dollars 280 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: plus legal fees. What will that do to you? Well, 281 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, he's never gonna get a 282 00:18:55,520 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: million dollars from me because I don't have a million dollars. Um. 283 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 1: So that's sir stuff. But I don't know what to do. 284 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: It's been really awful. I think that a lot of 285 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: victims of these frivolous lawsuits don't come out because just 286 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: by coming out, he put in a new motion that's 287 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: going to cost me another twenty five thousand dollars to defend. Um. 288 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: You know, he thinks that I should be like imprisoned 289 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: now and in retract all my comments, even though none 290 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 1: of them have been proved. They have yet to prove 291 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: in any way that anything I've said is a lie, 292 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: because they can't because I'm not lying. But I'm also 293 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: concerned about publishing your medical history on the internet, including 294 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: information about mental health, personal information like a home address, 295 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: driver's license number. That's disturbing. Well, he thinks it's his 296 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 1: right to do so because I've been talking about it. 297 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: Not I did not tell anyone anything he posted. Honestly, 298 00:19:55,880 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: I've I've just stayed with the review. Um. But he 299 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: thinks that because I'm okay with talking about it, that 300 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 1: it's now his right that he can post it because 301 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 1: I don't care, and that's their mean argument, or that 302 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: it was in a place not that many people would 303 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 1: see it, but that's saying, well, you can take anyone's 304 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 1: patient history and post it anywhere, as long as you 305 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: don't think a lot of people are going to see 306 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 1: it there. And this is generally um um advice. Truth 307 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: is an absolute defense. If you state the truth about 308 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,880 Speaker 1: your experience, that is an absolute defense. If you make 309 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: broader conclusions that there is a scam factory going on, 310 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: or that a lot of other women have had the 311 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: same experience, you're going to have to prove that. Remember, 312 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: truth is a complete defense. Now, what does this mean 313 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 1: to Jennifer Zigowski, Crime online investigative reporter. This doctor doctor 314 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: Song has every two d views on zot doc, most 315 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: of them are positive. He gets a one and a 316 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 1: half stars on Yelp. What does that mean for people 317 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: not familiar with yelp? Basically, if you're not familiar with yelp, 318 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: and let's say today that I want to make an 319 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: appointment with H O, B, g U, Y N or 320 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: dentists and I want to see what other people's experiences 321 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 1: were So I'm going to google the name plus reviews, 322 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 1: and normally Yelp is one of the first websites that 323 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 1: comes up that will show you know, people's experiences within UM, 324 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: within that practice, and that goes the same for Dr 325 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 1: June's songs practice. Now, it's kind of interesting when you 326 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: go on to Yelp under Dr June's song's name, there's 327 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 1: an alert that comes up. It says active clean up alert. 328 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 1: This business quote this business recently made waves in the news, 329 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 1: which often means that people come to this page to 330 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: post their views on the news. Well, we don't take 331 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: a stand one way or the other when it comes 332 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: to these news events. We do work to remove both 333 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: positive and negative posts that appear to be motivated more 334 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 1: by the news coverage itself than the reviewers personal consumer 335 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: experience with the business. Goes on to say, uh, some 336 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: other things about that UM. But you know, Michelle brought 337 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: up something interesting me last night as well. When you're 338 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: going through the Yelp reviews, you see most of them, 339 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: to the naked eye look positive. Michelle has hers been 340 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 1: there with more star um and laying out everything, but 341 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 1: most look positive. You have to actually look a little 342 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: bit closer where it says ten other reviews that are 343 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: not currently recommended, so you can see those, but you 344 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,200 Speaker 1: have to click on them in order to see them. 345 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: So your average person who might not know much about Yelp, 346 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 1: you won't know to to also check out those reviews 347 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 1: that that are you know, way at the bottom of 348 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: yelps that they are not advertising like they are those 349 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: five stars. And then Michelle's want star. Ashley Willcott, juvenile judge, 350 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: lawyer and founder child crime watch dot com. Ashley all 351 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:31,439 Speaker 1: this a million dollar lawsuit over a Yelp review, Right, Nancy, 352 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 1: Let's talk about consumer freedom of speech. So we know 353 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: that the First Amendment gives consumers the right to express 354 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: their opinions so long as, like you pointed out, they're honest, 355 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: they can still be critical. And Yelp is an organization 356 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: that does a lot of work to protect consumer freedom 357 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: of speech. In fact, they were actually involved in legislation 358 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: that President Obama assigned in called the Consumer Review Fairness Act, 359 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:04,239 Speaker 1: which empowers and protects consumer speech online. So Yelp as 360 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: a company that's going to protect consumers as much as 361 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: they can, and in this case, I don't wonder but 362 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: if they learn of or know of this entire lawsuit, 363 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,679 Speaker 1: what recourse they may seek to prevent this in the future, 364 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: So long as her review was honest. You know that's 365 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: been passing so many states, New York is not one 366 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:29,439 Speaker 1: of them. Now see I find that disturbing because YELP 367 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: is worldwide, right, so for it to be piecemeal, like 368 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: you're protected in some states but not New York, I 369 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: find that to be very h an unequal distribution of 370 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: justice for saying, Georgia, you're protected, New York you're not. 371 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: How can that be? Ashley? And and that's part of 372 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: the reason YELP has gone to federal legislation, right, because 373 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 1: once you have a president signed federal legislation, as you 374 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: well know, states can come up with different laws, but 375 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: it can't violate any of the federal laws. So it's 376 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: a work in progress and ongoing. But as these lawsuits 377 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: come up that put consumers at such financial risk and 378 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: emotional risk, I think, you know it's going to continue 379 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:19,919 Speaker 1: to advocate for federal legislation that makes it protected speech 380 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 1: in every state. To Dr Brian Russell joining us not 381 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: only a lawyer, but a psychologist and host of investigation 382 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 1: Discoveries Hit series Fatal Valves. Dr Brian Um. You know, 383 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 1: when I think about this woman, when I think about 384 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: Michelle's predicament, she goes online, she posts a bad review 385 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: and get sought with a million dollar lawsuit. Yeah, there 386 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: are a couple of things that I think I can 387 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: add here as uh the only healthcare professional clinician I 388 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: think that's on with us today. If I'm wrong, correct me. 389 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: But I uh do know. And this is not anything 390 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: to do with this woman's review of this doctor. This 391 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: is just an observation that I will share with you, 392 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,360 Speaker 1: just for some context. There are a lot of defamatory 393 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: reviews of healthcare professionals out there. For example, there are 394 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: a lot of opioid speakers who will go to a 395 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 1: doctor with some kind of a vague or flimsy sounding 396 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: requests for pain medication, not get it, and then go 397 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: write a review that says, you know, this doctor doesn't 398 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: care about patients, he left me in pain, he didn't 399 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: mind that I was in pain, things like that. Now 400 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: that said, in this case, I agree with you totally. 401 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: If the if the plaintiff is not able, if the 402 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: doctor is not able to prove that there's at least 403 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 1: one lie and that review. Then I see this woman 404 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: not only winning but also getting her attorney's fees paid. 405 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,360 Speaker 1: And I think that the trouble for the doctor may 406 00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: not end there because it does sound as the based 407 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: on what she told us this morning, the lawyers have 408 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 1: made filings that include protected health information that you can't 409 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,159 Speaker 1: just you know, if you're a doctor and your lawyers 410 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 1: do something on your behalf, that's the same as you 411 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: doing it. And you cannot publicize people's private health records 412 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: even in legal findings. A sorry, even in legal filings 413 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 1: if they did not put their health at issue in 414 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: the case in this case, she didn't put her health 415 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: at issue. The doctor put it an issue. And so 416 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: you know, I think there may be some serious consequences 417 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 1: here for this doctor in terms of violation of this 418 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: woman's privacy, even though it was the lawyers who did. Yeah, 419 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 1: when your lawyers do it, that's the same as you 420 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: doing it. And I'm just very concerned about putting her 421 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 1: medical records online, uh silent, and the lawyers had to 422 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: know that would become public record. Just the whole scenario 423 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: now here is um to Ashley and Dr Brian. Maybe 424 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 1: I'm splitting hairs. But for Michelle to say I got 425 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: a bad I had a bad experience. He didn't do 426 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: a pelvic exam and he overcharged me, it's not correct. 427 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:21,639 Speaker 1: That's different from saying something something like he's running a 428 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 1: scam factory. He does this all the time. He's making 429 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 1: fake insurance money for things he didn't do. If you 430 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 1: say something like that, Dr Brian Russell, that's a different 431 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: can of worms. That's absolutely right. And and just for 432 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: our listeners, uh education from that, you know. I always 433 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,479 Speaker 1: like listeners to be able to take away a lesson 434 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: that can can maybe help them avoid some trouble in 435 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: their own lives. When you go to a doctor for 436 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: a preventative preventative exam, many people today with their Affordable 437 00:28:55,280 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: Care Actor Obamacare insurance policies, have certain preventative services that 438 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: are covered that do not come off your deduct don't. 439 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: You don't have to pay a deductible or anything. They 440 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: are just included. You pay for them, of course, and 441 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: your premium staff the year. But if you go, for example, 442 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: I have something called a well man exam in my 443 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: coverage where I can go and have a basic check 444 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: up once a year without having to pay anything. It 445 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: doesn't that I don't have to meet my deductible first, 446 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: nothing like that. But if I go to that exam 447 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: and at that exam the doctor says, you know, you 448 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: have a mole that doesn't look right to me, I 449 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: would like to buiopsy that, or I'm going to buiopsy that, 450 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: And I say, okay, go ahead, and they buiopsy. It's okay. 451 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: Now that's not a preventative service at that point. That 452 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: is that is a different thing. That might be something 453 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: where I am going to have a charge now if 454 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: I haven't not my deductible for the year. So always 455 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: ask if they tell you they're going to do something else, 456 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: which would they the basic equivalent to her ultrasound, which is, 457 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: I guess more than preventative. Now, this is exactly, and 458 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote her review quote very poor and crooked 459 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: business practice. I suspect that this doctor gives a necessary 460 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: procedure to a lot of people and then charges the 461 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: insurance sky high prices and no one knows the difference. 462 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: Everything about my one and only visit here has caused 463 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: me emotional distress and panic, and now they want me 464 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: to cough up an extra five hundred dollars for services. 465 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: I didn't even need that to my understanding was the review. 466 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: Two weeks later, she got gets an email telling her 467 00:30:52,000 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 1: she's being sued. Now that's pretty that's pretty serious, some 468 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: million dollar in lawsuit. But we here a very short review. However, 469 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: it does say everything about my one and only experience 470 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: has caused me distress and panic. That is not actionable. 471 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: Now Here here's a concern, very poor and crooked business practice. 472 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: I suspect this doctor gives unnecessary procedures to a lot 473 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: of people and charges the insurance sky high prices and 474 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: no one knows the difference is that Dr Brian going 475 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: beyond reviewing her experience. So the only thing that you 476 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 1: just quoted to me that I think could potentially be 477 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 1: defamation is the word crooked, because before she predicates the 478 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: rest of it with I suspect. People can say that 479 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: they suspect things, they think things, and that is an opinion, 480 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: that's not the samatory. But saying that somebody is crooked 481 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: is implying that they are dishonest criminal. Now, one piece 482 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: of good news for her is even if she were 483 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: deemed to have defamed this doctor by saying he's crooked, 484 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: And the real truth is, you know that they just 485 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: had a disagreement or she didn't understand or whatever about 486 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: the services. He would still have to prove that she 487 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: damaged him to the tune of a million dollars to 488 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: get a million dollars, and that's never going to happen. 489 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: He is never going to prove that she did a 490 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: million dollars of damage to his reputation. So at least 491 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: that she can breathe a little bit easy on that. 492 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: Have you ever heard the phrase to Dr Brian Russell 493 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: or Ashley Wilcott, don't stir the pot? Have you ever 494 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: heard that? Because if I would be willing to bet 495 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: that her y'all preview one out of hundreds, ye'all previews 496 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 1: good and bad, wouldn't amount into a hill of beings. 497 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: But now that he sued her for a million dollars 498 00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 1: and put her medical records basically on the internet by 499 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: by entering them into evidence on a public court record, 500 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: now he has gotten all that press and now people 501 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: do know about the bad review and the allegations. If 502 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: they didn't know about it before, they sure as heck 503 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: know about them now. Now some people would argue that's 504 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: cutting off your nose despite your face. Ashley Willcott, absolutely, 505 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: I think he's trying to create his own damages and 506 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: then blame her and say, if you hadn't written this review, 507 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have all these negative attention from media and people. 508 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,479 Speaker 1: And my frustration in this case is that there are 509 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: lawyers that are gonna start by saying you owe us 510 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: a million dollars. We're filing a lawsuit because this was defamation. 511 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:48,479 Speaker 1: Yelped specifically provides, as do most websites, recourse by writing 512 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 1: a response, having messaging, so you know, this doctor could 513 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: have taken the high road and said I disagree with her. 514 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: I think it's defamation. She called me crooked. I'm gonna 515 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: take steps to make certain that my patients that I 516 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: care about know that I am not crooked, that I 517 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: am not doing anything bad, that I am treating my 518 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: patients well, and written a response and done messaging and 519 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,320 Speaker 1: done a campaign on social media to correct the misconception 520 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: that he believes she portrayed. Instead, they slap a big 521 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 1: lawsuit and create a whole lot out of almost nothing, 522 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: joining me out of l A is my partner in crime, 523 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,720 Speaker 1: Alan Duke, along with Jackie Howard here in the studio 524 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: with me Alan. Has she started a go fund me account? Yes, 525 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: she has, Nancy, And first of all, you can read 526 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 1: about it and see it, and it's linked to in 527 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 1: Jennifer's story on crime online dot Com. That might be 528 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: the best way to find it. Yep, you're right, guys. 529 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: This has gone haywire where a woman goes and gets 530 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,919 Speaker 1: her annual or think she is pelvic exam and ends 531 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: up bringing home a one million dollar at lawsuit. You 532 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 1: can find it at right to Yelp with Michelle Levine. 533 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: For more on this story, go to crime online dot 534 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 1: com for all the details, including the god fund Me site. 535 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: Michelle Levine facing a one million dollar lawsuit for a 536 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 1: single Yelp review of a gynecologist she visited one time. 537 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 1: Even if she wins the lawsuit, will she be out 538 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 1: tens of thousands of dollars to defend the lawsuit? If 539 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,280 Speaker 1: she were to win the lawsuit, the judge or jury 540 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:47,799 Speaker 1: could award her lawyer's fees. We wait to see as 541 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: justice unfolds, Michelle Levine. Women all over the country are 542 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 1: watching your case. There's a brand new website causing a 543 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: lot of trouble for people with something to hide? Have 544 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,320 Speaker 1: you ever had a bad feeling about somebody, suspect that 545 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: a partner of cheating, worried about your online reputation? If 546 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,799 Speaker 1: you answer yes to any of those questions, you may 547 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 1: need truth Finder. Truth Finder may reveal court records, bankruptcies, 548 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: contact information, social dating profiles, assets, and a lot more. 549 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,360 Speaker 1: You get it all in one easy to read report. 550 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,839 Speaker 1: Why work out thousands of dollars to a private eye 551 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 1: when you can do the job yourself. Go to truth 552 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: finder dot com slash Nancy and enter any name to 553 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 1: get started. A Florida woman gives birth to a stillborn 554 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: baby boy, and now she has charged with murder of 555 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: an infant girl. How does that work? I Nancy Grace, 556 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. 557 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,440 Speaker 1: We're going live now to West Millbourne, Florida with John 558 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:59,319 Speaker 1: Limley Crime stories dot Com investigative reporter John Limley. The 559 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: woman give birth to a baby boy who is still born, 560 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: and she's charged with the murder of an infant girl. 561 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 1: Now explain to me how that happened, well, Nancy. Officers 562 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 1: received a nine one one call shortly after three o'clock 563 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:18,280 Speaker 1: on a Sunday afternoon a woman says she's given birth 564 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: unexpectedly to a child that isn't breathing. When police arrived, 565 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 1: they indeed find the child. It's a baby boy, unresponsive. 566 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:33,240 Speaker 1: While one cop is questioning the mom, other officers start 567 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: looking over the scene and they come across a pile 568 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,439 Speaker 1: of bloody towels next to a garbage can, and that's 569 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 1: when they realize that there's much more to the story 570 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: that then the mom is letting on. They're inside the 571 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 1: trash ben is the corpse of a newborn girl wrapped 572 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,880 Speaker 1: in a plastic grocery bag. In addition to those bloody 573 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: towels that first tipped them off, they also find medical 574 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:03,839 Speaker 1: wrap and toilet paper stacked around. Someone has obviously tried 575 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 1: to hide the evidence of another child. Okay, I'm trying 576 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:13,360 Speaker 1: to take all of that in. Take a listen to 577 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,279 Speaker 1: the body cam from the cops who show up on 578 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,720 Speaker 1: the scene. Let's hear it as it happens. The baby 579 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 1: crying when when you first when you first gave birth, Oh, 580 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,399 Speaker 1: you don't remember if the baby was crying or anything 581 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 1: like that. There was only one. I think I only 582 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: felt one. Why only saw one? So let me understand 583 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 1: this To John Linley. She said she didn't know there 584 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 1: were two babies, that she only gave birth to one 585 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 1: correct while on the scene. She's heard several times in 586 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:48,240 Speaker 1: the cops body Kim saying that she had no idea 587 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,720 Speaker 1: she was even pregnant before giving birth and there while 588 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,760 Speaker 1: still at the house. While being treated at the hospital, 589 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 1: Rachel claims she knew of only one child. She says 590 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 1: she never saw the boy baby open his eyes, cry 591 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 1: or breathe, and that he was blue and cold to 592 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:11,320 Speaker 1: the touch, according to the police officers. She tells officers 593 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,279 Speaker 1: she had been at work around nine a m. On 594 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,319 Speaker 1: Sunday and began to feel unwell, came home, had no 595 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:21,360 Speaker 1: idea she was pregnant with twins, and gave birth trying 596 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:28,320 Speaker 1: to use the bathroom all right, straight out to Ashley Willcott, 597 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:34,359 Speaker 1: Atlanta juvenal judge. Lawyer founded a child crime watch dot 598 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:39,839 Speaker 1: com and mother most importantly in this scenario, Ashley, it's 599 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: kind of hard to believe you're pregnant with twins and 600 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:43,759 Speaker 1: you didn't know you were pregnant. You know, it's hard 601 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 1: to believe. Unfortunately, as a judge in juvenile court, I 602 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: see this that parents, mothers come in and say I 603 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 1: didn't even know I was pregnant. Generally, most often it's 604 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:57,479 Speaker 1: because they're on drugs. Um there's obviously an issue with them, 605 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: and they are out of it and don't even realize. 606 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 1: It's unbelievable, it's unacceptable. But I see it happen, and 607 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,880 Speaker 1: I can promise you that hospital is gonna have a 608 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:11,400 Speaker 1: toxology toxicology report pending. So far, we don't know anything 609 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 1: about this woman being on drugs. But what we do 610 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,799 Speaker 1: know is she claimed she had no idea she was 611 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,280 Speaker 1: pregnant with twins. She had no idea she gave birth 612 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,439 Speaker 1: to twins. That she owing you about one baby boy 613 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:27,439 Speaker 1: that was found that was born still born. So Dr 614 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist and host of the hit series 615 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 1: on investigation Discovery Fatal Vows, how is it that police 616 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 1: find a second baby, an infant girl, dead in a 617 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:46,880 Speaker 1: plastic bag beneath a bag of cat litter. The baby 618 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: is wrapped in a plastic bag hidden under used cat litter. 619 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: Help me out, Dr Brian, Well, so here is I 620 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 1: think what Ashley said is true. I've I've seen similar cases. However, 621 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,000 Speaker 1: any time, and you and I talked about this all 622 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 1: the time in many types of cases. Any time you 623 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: see somebody who is professing to be out of it 624 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,719 Speaker 1: and you think, well, maybe there's substance abuse, maybe there's 625 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:22,880 Speaker 1: mental illness, whatever, and then you start to see active concealment, 626 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 1: you start to I mean, it's a form of lying, right, Okay, 627 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 1: So right there, you've got somebody who is conscious of 628 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 1: having done something wrong, and you know, we get the 629 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 1: excuse going all the way back to Casey Anthony of well, 630 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 1: I was scared, I panicked. Okay, that doesn't cut it. 631 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,880 Speaker 1: People who get scared and panicked call for help and 632 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: they get it. But people who are scared and panic 633 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,319 Speaker 1: because they know that if the help comes they're going 634 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,920 Speaker 1: to be in trouble, start concealing and then when they 635 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,319 Speaker 1: get caught concealing, making up live Now, according to her 636 00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 1: Rachel Thomas, she had no idea she was pregnant, and 637 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,880 Speaker 1: in fact continued having a minstrel cycle up until the 638 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,480 Speaker 1: time of the birth. To Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, 639 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:14,319 Speaker 1: isn't that biologically impossible? Yes, yes, it is. Nancy. I 640 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 1: think that she she's essentially, uh trying to get these 641 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 1: people to think that she's delusional when you see what's done, 642 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,000 Speaker 1: what has been done to these little angels that are 643 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 1: no longer with us. Uh, yeah, I don't. I don't 644 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,840 Speaker 1: think that that's accurate. Well, you know, Ashley Wilcott, you 645 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,680 Speaker 1: sound what you're kind of taking her side, that maybe 646 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 1: she had a drug problem, maybe has she had a 647 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,239 Speaker 1: some What about the baby, the two dead babies, they're 648 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 1: the ones with the problem. Yeah, I'm absolutely not taking 649 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:52,359 Speaker 1: her side. I think you are, Ashley. How you see 650 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 1: it all the time and they don't know better and 651 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:58,439 Speaker 1: they have a drug problem. When when no, I don't 652 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,480 Speaker 1: believe that they that they get away with the excuse 653 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 1: of I have a drug problem. That's a person's choice. 654 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,400 Speaker 1: And she has abused, neglected, murdered two children as a result. 655 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,759 Speaker 1: So I absolutely think it's horrible for these children. But 656 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 1: you know, quite frankly, I'm pretty black and white stopped 657 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,440 Speaker 1: doing drugs. Well here again, I don't have any information 658 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,560 Speaker 1: that she was doing drugs, but I do know this. 659 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:24,520 Speaker 1: I know what the autopsy says. The autopsy says that 660 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 1: the babies died a blunt force trauma to the head. 661 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,080 Speaker 1: That's what I know, is that correct? John Limley and 662 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:39,160 Speaker 1: the autopsies revealed that the two twins were thirty eight 663 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,720 Speaker 1: weeks old. You mean thirty eight weeks in gest station. 664 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:46,399 Speaker 1: They're not eight weeks old, correct, which means that they 665 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:51,799 Speaker 1: were almost full term. Actually, well kind of if they 666 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,720 Speaker 1: were thirty eight weeks I mean my children, the twins 667 00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 1: were in nikki for so long because they were just 668 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,160 Speaker 1: at thirty weeks when they were born. And we all know, 669 00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:04,799 Speaker 1: and as a mother, your body changes, so you know, 670 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,880 Speaker 1: when you're pregnant their sides right, Your stomach gets bigger, 671 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:09,799 Speaker 1: and you don't have a period. There are lots of 672 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,400 Speaker 1: physical results of being pregnant. The blunt force trauma to 673 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:17,120 Speaker 1: me changes the entire picture of what's happened. She I 674 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,520 Speaker 1: would argue, knew she was pregnant, had two kids, and 675 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,920 Speaker 1: murdered them. According to an affidavit filed by West Melbourne 676 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:28,320 Speaker 1: Police and obtained now, Thomas changed her story several times, 677 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:33,279 Speaker 1: denying she gave birth to more than one baby, claiming 678 00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 1: that she gave birth to the baby boy, wrapped him 679 00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,760 Speaker 1: up in the shirt, never saw him open his eyes 680 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:44,240 Speaker 1: or cry or breathe, and began quote cleaning up the mess. 681 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,400 Speaker 1: But there's more than that. John Limley. It was in 682 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 1: the e R that she repeats that statement about being 683 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:55,000 Speaker 1: aware of just one child. Then, and get this, just 684 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:59,560 Speaker 1: one minute later, her story changes. She now says she 685 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,840 Speaker 1: gave birth to twins. No, no, don't mean any noise 686 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:07,319 Speaker 1: there anything else? Okay? How many was there? And they 687 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:11,440 Speaker 1: were both? Then I got scared? There we hear her 688 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:16,200 Speaker 1: and one of her story changes, admitting that there were 689 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:20,560 Speaker 1: two babies to Alan Duke, Alan, what can you tell 690 00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,440 Speaker 1: me about computer searches? As you know, when you do 691 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,759 Speaker 1: a thorough investigation, you go and you look at what 692 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,880 Speaker 1: people have been doing on Google and elsewhere on their computers, 693 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,680 Speaker 1: and guess what they found that this lady allegedly did. 694 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:35,759 Speaker 1: They found she had been searching just a couple of 695 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:40,400 Speaker 1: weeks earlier how to induce labor. What would that tell you? 696 00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:44,080 Speaker 1: She was thinking, what would that tell you? Dr Brian Russell, 697 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:46,759 Speaker 1: you're the shrink. Sounds to me like she knew she 698 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,920 Speaker 1: was pregnant. Guys, we are waiting for justice to unfold 699 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 1: and what potentially is a double murder case. Will the 700 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,680 Speaker 1: case be pled down because they were infants that lost 701 00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:00,400 Speaker 1: their lives? We see that happened so often. This is 702 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:05,280 Speaker 1: what we know two infants dead of blunt forced trauma 703 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:10,760 Speaker 1: to the head, lying to police apparently trying to induce 704 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 1: labor one infant girl interesting. She picked the girl to 705 00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:20,040 Speaker 1: wrap up in a plastic bag and hide under used 706 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:24,359 Speaker 1: kitty litter John Linley. Are there other children in the home? 707 00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,480 Speaker 1: Rachel has two other children, and deputies say they're now 708 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:33,160 Speaker 1: staying with a relative. Online court records showed that Rachel 709 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,840 Speaker 1: has submitted a plea of not guilty and she's currently 710 00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,760 Speaker 1: locked up without the option of of of posting bond. 711 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,759 Speaker 1: I can only hope that this case isn't swept under 712 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,200 Speaker 1: the rug with a light plea and this woman goes 713 00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:52,400 Speaker 1: on to do the same thing again. Believe me, it happens, 714 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,560 Speaker 1: and it's a consequence of you know, this is what 715 00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,560 Speaker 1: happens when you have a country where you know, and 716 00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:01,719 Speaker 1: I don't want to I don't want to uh set 717 00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:04,240 Speaker 1: anybody on the handle, but when you have a country 718 00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:09,520 Speaker 1: where you know, it's legal to have abortion just for convenience. 719 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,200 Speaker 1: Read I'm not talking about rape and incest and all that. 720 00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:15,319 Speaker 1: I'm just talking about just for birth control. After the fact, 721 00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:19,400 Speaker 1: birth control reasons, people get desensitized to the value of 722 00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:21,920 Speaker 1: the life of an infant, and they see something like 723 00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,799 Speaker 1: this and they're like, well, yeah, it's bad, but it's 724 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,960 Speaker 1: not as bad as if she would have killed one 725 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,479 Speaker 1: month old or one year old or a ten year old. 726 00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:35,360 Speaker 1: And you know, I'm sitting there going, yeah, it is me. 727 00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:42,799 Speaker 1: The thought of that is overwhelming. The only thing we 728 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:48,399 Speaker 1: can do now is hope for justice. Nancy Grace Crime 729 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:57,400 Speaker 1: Stories signing off, goodbye friend. 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