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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr joy Hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope

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Speaker 1: you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it

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Speaker 1: is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship

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Speaker 1: with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for joining me for Session to three of the

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our

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Speaker 1: conversation after a word from our sponsors. As cannabis consumption

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Speaker 1: continues to be prevalent in black communities, it's imperative that

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Speaker 1: we understand the science behind the plant. What is cannabis

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Speaker 1: and how does it interact with our minds and bodies?

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Speaker 1: And what do we need to be mindful of when

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Speaker 1: using cannabis to protect ourselves and those around us. In

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Speaker 1: this week's session, I speak with neuroscientists and professor Dr

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Speaker 1: Yasmin heard during our conversation. We explore the different properties

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Speaker 1: in cannabis, the difference between CBD and THHC, and what

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Speaker 1: new important research is being done today centered around cannabis usage.

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Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please

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Speaker 1: share with us on social media using the hashtag TBG

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Speaker 1: in session or join us over in the sister circles.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk more in depth about the episode. You can

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Speaker 1: join us at community that Therapy for Black Girls dot com.

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Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Well, thank you so much for joining

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Speaker 1: me today. Dr heard nice being here. Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: I was wondering if you could get us started by

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Speaker 1: talking to us about the research that you conduct and

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Speaker 1: how you got started in conducting research related to CBD.

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Speaker 1: So the research I conduct relates to trying to understand

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Speaker 1: what everybody calls addiction and related psychiatric illnesses. And I

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Speaker 1: had been studying the developmental effects of cannabis for many

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Speaker 1: years in addition to studying the neurobiology of heroin effects

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Speaker 1: on the brain. And when we look at adults that

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Speaker 1: had heroin used disorders, we try to look at what

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Speaker 1: are some risk factors, and one risk factor we look at,

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Speaker 1: you know, genetics, of course environment, and one thing was

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Speaker 1: also looking at early exposure to cannabis, whether that be

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Speaker 1: prenatal or at a lessent exposure. In our animal models

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Speaker 1: when we want to study the neurobiology, we normally use

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Speaker 1: th HC to look at the effects of cannabis, and

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Speaker 1: we would invariably see that animals, for example, with self

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Speaker 1: administer more heroin in no matter what their friends from

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Speaker 1: others who are there ads. We do that behavioral transmit

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Speaker 1: a difference. But I wanted to at least say we

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Speaker 1: were always saying that th HC was cannabis, and I said,

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Speaker 1: let's at least study another cannabinoid just to make sure.

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Speaker 1: And when we gave CBD, it was surprising we actually

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Speaker 1: saw a different effect than we saw with th HC.

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Speaker 1: CBD cannabidial actually reduced the animal's heroine seeking behavior, and

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Speaker 1: that became my path into studying CBD and we replicating

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Speaker 1: our studies in our animal models, and then I wanted

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Speaker 1: to see if CBD could do the same in humans,

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Speaker 1: because there are a lot of animal studies for research

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Speaker 1: that never really translate to the human and become therapy,

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Speaker 1: and when we run our clinical trials, it actually did

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Speaker 1: the same thing. It reduced heroin craving in individuals who

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Speaker 1: had a heroin use disorder. Now I became like the

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Speaker 1: face of CBD, ironically because no one was studying CBD

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Speaker 1: at that time, and when we started thinking that this

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Speaker 1: could be a potential treatment for substance use disorders at

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Speaker 1: least for all produce disorders, and then I've been trying

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Speaker 1: to understand its effects on the brain ever since. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for sharing that. So I am fascinated.

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Speaker 1: I don't know a lot about like animal studies and

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Speaker 1: then how that translates to like what happens with humans.

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Speaker 1: But can you say a little bit more about, like

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Speaker 1: how often is it that something we see that works

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Speaker 1: in like an animal study translates to working in humans.

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Speaker 1: It's rare, I will tell you. And that's the problem

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Speaker 1: that we have right especially for psychiatric disorders I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about in particular. Animal models and so on are very

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Speaker 1: important to understand the mechanisms by which certain drugs may

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Speaker 1: act on the brain, or understanding the biology of certain behaviors,

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Speaker 1: But to translate it to developing medicine, less than five percent,

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Speaker 1: it really is that rare. So when I saw the

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Speaker 1: effects that they in fact replicated what we saw in

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Speaker 1: our animal models. It gave me hope, and that's why

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Speaker 1: I started to promote that perhaps we should be studying CBD,

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Speaker 1: and unfortunate's got very complicated because now CBD is sold

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Speaker 1: everywhere and it's in the water and their coffee. For me,

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Speaker 1: I thought that it could be a potential medicine and

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Speaker 1: that could have such huge impact. So you use another

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Speaker 1: word that I want you to tell us a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about. So you said something about a cannabinoid.

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Speaker 1: What is it? Thanks? So, the cannabis plant is extremely complex.

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Speaker 1: It's made up of over a hundred and forty cannabinoids.

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Speaker 1: Many people know th HC. Right, that's the cannabinoid that's

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Speaker 1: the most prominent carnabinoid in the plant, And that's the

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Speaker 1: cannabinoid that you know it makes you feel the high

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Speaker 1: that's associated with the euphorogenic effects of cannabis. That also

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Speaker 1: is what we know is associated with the mental health

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Speaker 1: challenges that we see in certain cannabis users. But cannabin

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Speaker 1: dial CBDs another carnabinoid. It's just a much lower concentration

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Speaker 1: in the plant and these are the original plan and

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Speaker 1: it's even lower now in the plants that are on

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Speaker 1: the street. Of the plants on the streets are not

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Speaker 1: the original plants. They have been genetically modified to give

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Speaker 1: a much higher concentrations of th HC and inadvertently they

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Speaker 1: reduced CBD in the plant, which actually in a way

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Speaker 1: was a buffer in on sent you could say to

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Speaker 1: th HC, there are other chemicals in the plant as well.

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Speaker 1: Often people in the hear of turpenes. But th HC

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Speaker 1: and CBD are cannabinoids, got it. So yeah, you mentioned

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Speaker 1: like it feels like you hear about CBD kind of

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Speaker 1: all over the place now, But there are other and

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Speaker 1: I'm guessing these are also cannabinoids. So cannabis and hemp

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Speaker 1: are those also other like cannabinoids. So th HC is

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Speaker 1: the cannabinoid within cannabis and hemp. Actually, hemp is a

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Speaker 1: cannabis strain that doesn't have much THC in it. In fact,

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Speaker 1: it's the opposite. It has more CBD because it has

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Speaker 1: like less than point three percent th HC. Hemp now

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Speaker 1: is legal throughout the country, but cannabis is still illegal

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Speaker 1: federally and it's still considered a Schedule one drug. So

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Speaker 1: cannabis and hemp are the plants, and th HC and

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Speaker 1: CBD are the cannabinoids within those plants. Got it, Okay,

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Speaker 1: So from your research, how do people typically get into

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Speaker 1: cannabis used. The one thing about cannabis today is that

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Speaker 1: so pervasive in our society, but even before today, and

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Speaker 1: it's not just cannabis. Many people say, oh, cannabis has

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Speaker 1: been around for thousands of years. All the other drugs

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Speaker 1: have also been around for thousands of years, except for

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Speaker 1: the new ones that we've sympathized, but mostly it's in

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Speaker 1: the US. There's just been this long history with cannabis

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Speaker 1: and even the term marijuana, which came actually from Mexico

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Speaker 1: and the prejudice that was made in terms of, oh,

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Speaker 1: marijuana and those Mexicans are crazy, and it became this

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Speaker 1: negative things of the Mexicans are bringing marijuana into our country.

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Speaker 1: And then it became oh, to stop the kids in

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Speaker 1: the sixties who were for peace, and that black people

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Speaker 1: were smoking cannabis, and you know, the War on dreads.

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Speaker 1: A lot of it came from trying to demonize cannabis.

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Speaker 1: But I think cannabis in our society many people started

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Speaker 1: using it like alcohol, and because it didn't lead to

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Speaker 1: like overdoses like opioids, and it just became you know,

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Speaker 1: you have all these terms from Marywell, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: from weed. It just became very kind of a norm,

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Speaker 1: even though it has been penalized so much, and especially

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Speaker 1: for black and brown people, where so many people are

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Speaker 1: locked up in prison because of having cannabis on their body,

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Speaker 1: things like that. Now that we've come kind of full

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Speaker 1: circle where everybody thinks that it should be legalized, many

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Speaker 1: people think it's benign drug. Many people think it's like alcohol.

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Speaker 1: And so you have now this promotion of cannabis used

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Speaker 1: where you see advertisement not even for CBD. And I

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Speaker 1: separate cannabis really from CBD, but I think that it's

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Speaker 1: the drug that, along with alcohol and cigarettes, that many

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Speaker 1: teens would be exposed to first. This is when they

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Speaker 1: start experimenting and figuring out themselves in part. And it's

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Speaker 1: just become part of the norm in our society. So

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Speaker 1: it's basically everywhere. You know. The other thing that I've

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Speaker 1: heard a lot doctor heard is around cannabis being like

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Speaker 1: a gateway drug. So I'd love to hear from you

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Speaker 1: is this true? And what is a gateway drug? So

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Speaker 1: a gateway drug and I think the term is misused

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Speaker 1: from what the initial authors of that term really admitt

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Speaker 1: So basically is that the use of one drug will

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Speaker 1: then lead you to use another drug. And usually the

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Speaker 1: first drug is something you know more of a social

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Speaker 1: not so far drug, and it leads you to them

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Speaker 1: take a harder drug like heroin or cocaine, and cannabis

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Speaker 1: is when you look at the pathway that many adults

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Speaker 1: who have a substance used disorder, when you look at

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Speaker 1: their drug history, many of them started off with cannabis.

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Speaker 1: They also started with alcohol or nicotine. So that's why

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Speaker 1: those drugs are considered gateway drugs in that context. But

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Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that if you use cannabis that automatically

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Speaker 1: you're going to develop a heroin used disorder or cocaine

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Speaker 1: use disorder. So the epidemiological studies does say that there

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Speaker 1: is a link between especially early and frequent cannabis use

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Speaker 1: and subsequently developing another substance use disorder. And I will

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Speaker 1: say that the data shows that nearly adults with a

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Speaker 1: substance used disorder started off during adolescence with substance use,

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Speaker 1: and so that's time period during adolescence is that time

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Speaker 1: period of vulnerability where that gateway hypothesis stemmed. And that's

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Speaker 1: why I think that we do pay a lot of

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Speaker 1: attention to team use of drugs, whether it's alcohol or

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Speaker 1: a cannabis, just because that's the time period that it

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Speaker 1: makes more vulnerable. It seems really interesting because I don't

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Speaker 1: know that I have heard alcohol being described as a

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Speaker 1: gateway drug, but it sounds like from what you're saying,

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways they are kind of on poor.

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Speaker 1: So both cannabis and alcohol, you see, tend to be

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Speaker 1: connected to later drug usage. Yeah, cannabis, alcohol, and cigarettes

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Speaker 1: are considered gateway drugs, I think just because of the

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Speaker 1: optics cannabis being the illegal drug while cigarettes and alcohol

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Speaker 1: are socially legal. That's why cannabis, perhaps the term gateway

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Speaker 1: was people in regular society thought of it that way

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Speaker 1: and promoted that way. But all three of those drugs,

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Speaker 1: because these are drugs that are more accessible to perhaps

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Speaker 1: two teens, even though those drugs are illegal for teens

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Speaker 1: to use. But you know, if something isn't society for

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Speaker 1: adults is gonna find its way. Toto as right, And

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Speaker 1: but all three of them are considered gateway drugs. And

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Speaker 1: when we talk about gateway. Is there something happening by

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Speaker 1: illogically that indicates like okay, you would need a different

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff since they maybe get that same kind

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Speaker 1: of a high, or is it more related to something else.

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Speaker 1: So that's why the research that I did try to

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Speaker 1: look at that. So when you look at humans and

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Speaker 1: human studies, they're very complicated to go for this gateway

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Speaker 1: on a neurobiological level. Why because sometimes teens who eventually

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Speaker 1: do develop a disorder to cocaine or heroine use, they

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Speaker 1: were around the people who were selling the drugs. So

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Speaker 1: many people think that the drug dealers start them off

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Speaker 1: on cannabis but then move them to go buy heroin

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Speaker 1: or something, and or the friends that they have, the

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Speaker 1: environment that they're in. So the animal models actually help

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Speaker 1: us to see what is the neurobiology irrespective of your friends,

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Speaker 1: irrespective of your mother, your father. And when we do

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Speaker 1: look at animal models, we do see that early exposure

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Speaker 1: in life too. Like I said, p HC does increase

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Speaker 1: the sensitivity to like opioids and psycho stimulant, cocaine or

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Speaker 1: something later in life. So it does change the brain

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Speaker 1: to for there being more sensitive to those drugs. So

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Speaker 1: for example, in our animal models that adults with actually

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Speaker 1: even prenatal exposure to cannabis, or at less an exposure

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Speaker 1: to cannabis, they self administered more heroin when given a choice.

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Speaker 1: So we know neuro biologically that there is a sensitivity,

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Speaker 1: but just like humans, not every animal will do that.

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Speaker 1: So we know that behavioral traits also make a difference.

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Speaker 1: We also know that stress also makes a difference. So

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Speaker 1: the stress and combination makes this difference, and that's why

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Speaker 1: you know, again our society and certain communities have a

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Speaker 1: lot of stress in them, and those combinations make it

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Speaker 1: challenging for mental health. People start to self medicate and

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Speaker 1: then they find themselves going down a path that they

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Speaker 1: normally wouldn't. So what does th HC Actually due to

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Speaker 1: the brain and body, So th HC bind store natural

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Speaker 1: cannabinoid receptors in our brain in that body, and actually

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Speaker 1: our carnabinoid receptor is one of the most prominent abundant

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Speaker 1: receptors in our brain, and in our brain it regulates

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Speaker 1: many different systems because it's so abundant. So from I'm

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Speaker 1: going to get very sciency from our cortex that cognition,

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Speaker 1: learning and memory. It's a part of the brain called

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Speaker 1: like the hippocampus, which memory, are parts of our brain

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Speaker 1: that deals with mortor coordination, emotional regulation, so all of

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Speaker 1: those things. When we have THHC in our bodies, it

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Speaker 1: can bind to those receptors and modulate those things in

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Speaker 1: the body. We have a lot of cannabinoid receptors as well,

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Speaker 1: so we know that our endogenous carnabinoid system is very

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Speaker 1: corret call because it's really integrated in the functioning of

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Speaker 1: so many things, not just our brain, but also other

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Speaker 1: organs and our immune system. More from my conversation with

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Speaker 1: Dr Herd after the break, So what happens to our

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Speaker 1: cannabinoid receptors if we're not actually consuming th HC or

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Speaker 1: CBD or something else, like, what happens to them naturally?

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Speaker 1: You know, you will hear that, oh, I use cannabis,

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Speaker 1: But because we have natural cannabis receptors, and yes, we

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Speaker 1: have these cannabinoid receptors, but we have natural cannabinoid ligands

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Speaker 1: in our brain and body, so we naturally make these substances,

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Speaker 1: but we make them at very low concentrations, and that's

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Speaker 1: the difference. So when we consume cannabis and th HC,

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Speaker 1: it actually is like this huge hammer. So if you

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Speaker 1: think of this little tiny pin that your natural cannabinoid leggas,

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Speaker 1: the natural cannabis chemicals in your body and your brain

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Speaker 1: would normally just like tap them lightly, and then now

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Speaker 1: you have cannabis, which is a huge hammer that then

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Speaker 1: hits them very hard. Those receptors. So our natural cannabinoid

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Speaker 1: chemicals in our body are critical for regulating all these

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Speaker 1: systems normally, but over a certain concentration, and that's where

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Speaker 1: the challenges and that's the issue with mental health. For example,

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Speaker 1: why does high dose you see induced like psychosis? Why?

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Speaker 1: And yes, definitely more in some individuals that have a

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Speaker 1: genetic vulnerability. And it's because that's the cannabis, and especially

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Speaker 1: the synthetic cannabis, because they bind to our natural receptors

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Speaker 1: much tighter and they produce a much stronger effect. And

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Speaker 1: that's what caused this disruption of the cells because the

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Speaker 1: cells aren't used to having this hammer. It like that,

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Speaker 1: got it? You are really taking us back to like

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Speaker 1: science one on one today. I feel like I'm learning

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Speaker 1: so much. So we do know though that CBD, it

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Speaker 1: seems like typically has a more calming effect on the

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Speaker 1: brain and the body. How else does CBD make us

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Speaker 1: feel and what can it be used for? So CBD

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Speaker 1: is very interesting can aminoid and I'm fascinated by it.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that's important to know it

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Speaker 1: doesn't buy into the kinnapinoid receptor like the THHC does

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Speaker 1: not in the same way. So it's actually even works

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Speaker 1: as an antagonist to even block part of the THHC effects.

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Speaker 1: So we're all trying to figure out how CBD adds

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Speaker 1: on the brain. But we do know that instead of

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Speaker 1: having this hammer effect, it has small effects at many

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Speaker 1: different sites, and perhaps those small effects but in multiple systems,

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Speaker 1: is perhaps why we don't see that CBD has really

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Speaker 1: bad side effects like we see obviously with THHC and CBD.

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Speaker 1: We're still again trying to figure out what does it do.

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Speaker 1: We know from our studies and from other people who

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Speaker 1: have replicated our studies and looked at other population We

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Speaker 1: know that CBD reduces anxiety. We're trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: how does it do that. We know other researchers and

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Speaker 1: number of groups have shown that CBD actually reduces psychosis.

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Speaker 1: We're trying to figure out how does it do that.

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Speaker 1: We know it can improve sleep, but again we're all

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out the dose and the timing of

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Speaker 1: how CBD is doing some of these things. There are

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Speaker 1: also people trying to study CBD. We have a project

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Speaker 1: starting soon with pain. I don't know if CBD is

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Speaker 1: really going to be as effective for pain without having

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Speaker 1: some THHC there. But these are things that has to

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Speaker 1: be studied in order to understand what concentration, what dose

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Speaker 1: of CBD is effective for different condition. But because one

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Speaker 1: dose is not going to be effective for all conditions,

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Speaker 1: we know that CBD might be effective for we still

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Speaker 1: have a long way to go, I think, to finding

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Speaker 1: out the dosing we know from the only FDA approved

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Speaker 1: use of CBD is for two childhood forms of epilepsy,

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Speaker 1: rare forms of epilepsy, and so there they have characterized

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Speaker 1: the doses and so on, but those are very high doses. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so please forgive me if I butcher the science behind this.

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Speaker 1: But what I hear you saying is that CBD does

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Speaker 1: not act on our carnabinoid receptors in the same way

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Speaker 1: that THC does, and that it may actually be acting

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Speaker 1: on other receptors and other parts of the body besides

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Speaker 1: just the carnabinoid receptors exactly. And when I hear you

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Speaker 1: say that you're studying and other people are studying, like

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Speaker 1: we know that it does kind of manage anxiety or

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Speaker 1: helps to decrease those symptoms. Is it acting in the

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Speaker 1: same way as like an anti anxiety medication with work

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Speaker 1: or differently. So there's some things that we see that

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Speaker 1: it has in common. So, for example, are indogeness it's

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Speaker 1: called serotonin. It's a neurotransmitter that's really linked to depression

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Speaker 1: and anxiety, and CBD actually works as an agonist at

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Speaker 1: one of those receptors, so we know that it tweaks

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Speaker 1: the serotonin system as well, So that may be one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons why it has certain anti anxiety properties.

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Speaker 1: As I said, the research is long that in order

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Speaker 1: to figure out why CBD has some of these effects.

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Speaker 1: But the one thing we do know that again, unlike THHC,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't produce intoxication. It's not addictive. So when I

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Speaker 1: hear people tell me, oh, they got CBD and they

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Speaker 1: got so high or something, these teenagers are saying that,

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Speaker 1: I know that they did not take CBD. So that's

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Speaker 1: one of the things that people have to be careful

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Speaker 1: because they're selling CBD and putting something else in there,

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Speaker 1: we have to be very careful about where you obtain

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Speaker 1: your CBD. From the f d A, they have had

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Speaker 1: a number of groups run many different phy doses of

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Speaker 1: CBD to try to see if, indeed if it is addictive,

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Speaker 1: and even the animal models it does not show that

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Speaker 1: sign at all. So you already mentioned a couple of

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Speaker 1: times how problematic it is that we're not really even

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Speaker 1: using like the original plant anymore, and so who knows

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Speaker 1: what kinds of things people are adding. So even when

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Speaker 1: you do like your own research, how is the CBD

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Speaker 1: or whatever substances made. So I work with pharmaceutical companies

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Speaker 1: that make miscal GMP. You know, it's like when you

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Speaker 1: go to the pharmacy and you would buy your medication,

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Speaker 1: you know that every single tablet is made the same,

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Speaker 1: is pure a certain grade and meets a certain level

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Speaker 1: of It doesn't have intoxicants in there, it doesn't have lead,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't have mold. So we work with companies that

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Speaker 1: make sure that we have high quality medicinal quote unquote

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Speaker 1: levels of CBD because that's what we want to in

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Speaker 1: the long run developed to really have products out there

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Speaker 1: not me. I'm not going to be making saddling the

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Speaker 1: money from it. But we want companies to, you know,

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Speaker 1: develop products just like any other medicine. You know, I

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Speaker 1: always say, you go into the pharmacy and you pick

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Speaker 1: up a bottle of aspirin. You know exactly what the

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Speaker 1: dosage is. It tells you on the you know the label,

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Speaker 1: and you know when to expect, how long it would last.

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Speaker 1: You know, aspirin came from the bark of a tree,

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Speaker 1: willow tree. We isolated the active ingredient, which was aspirin.

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Speaker 1: There perhaps other things in the bark of the tree

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Speaker 1: that might increase or decrease its actions, but we know

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Speaker 1: exactly what the active ingredient was and that's what's in

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Speaker 1: every tablet that you get. But you know exactly the dose.

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Speaker 1: And that's what I want for CBD. If it's going

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Speaker 1: to be medicine, it should have that quality that you

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Speaker 1: go into a pharmacy, you know exactly what it's in

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Speaker 1: each of those capsules and you know what to expect

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Speaker 1: and even what side effects to expect, not even does

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Speaker 1: when it might alleviate your anxiety or whatever, it may

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Speaker 1: turn out to be beneficial for so Dr Hurd. Are

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Speaker 1: you finding that there is still stigma that exists related

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Speaker 1: to CBD even though it feels like it's kind of

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Speaker 1: everywhere right now. I think that there is in some groups,

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Speaker 1: and that's why there is still obviously this push for

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Speaker 1: federal like cannabis is still a Schedule one drug and

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Speaker 1: so on, and because people don't realize the difference between

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Speaker 1: CBD and cannabis. It's not cannabis. It may be a

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Speaker 1: cannabinoid that comes from the cannabis plant or the hemp

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Speaker 1: plant for those people who get it directed from him,

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Speaker 1: but it's not cannabis, and that's why I want us

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Speaker 1: to call it different names. Some people think, oh, they're

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Speaker 1: just trying to legalize cannabis by CBD, and some people did.

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Speaker 1: I mean, don't get me wrong. I think the people

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Speaker 1: who really promoted a lot of the state legalization used

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Speaker 1: CBD for medicinal cannabis and for epilepsy. But I think

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Speaker 1: the stigma of cannabis comes onto CBD for some groups

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Speaker 1: of people who just wanted to think that people just

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Speaker 1: want to get high, and that's not the case. More

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Speaker 1: from my conversation with Dr Herd after the break, what

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Speaker 1: other kinds of like mental health concerns are being explored

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Speaker 1: that could be helped by CBD. So in addition to

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Speaker 1: the anxiety, and as I said, our research also on

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Speaker 1: opiate use disorders, other people are looking at other substance

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Speaker 1: use disorders as well. For alcohol, there's some work even

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Speaker 1: the nicotine psychosis. So now there's really, you know, some

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Speaker 1: really nice studies from England where they have looked at

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Speaker 1: people who in the high probability will develop love schizophrenia

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Speaker 1: and it's called like a prodromal state, and all of

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Speaker 1: us for every disease, just like cancer, we want to

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Speaker 1: try to get people early. And they've given CBD to

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Speaker 1: some of these young people and showing that CBD does

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Speaker 1: in fact decrease the progression to schizophrenia. So those are

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Speaker 1: the things. So psychosis, there's also research being done with depression.

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Speaker 1: To me, it's more of the anxiety is fear, but

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Speaker 1: who knows if the dosing may make a difference for

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Speaker 1: the different disorders. So those I think are the strongest

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Speaker 1: mental health related indications that a lot of groups, and

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Speaker 1: obviously anxiety and PTSD goes without saying so PTSD is

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Speaker 1: a big area that a number of research studies are

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Speaker 1: being conducted with. So can CBD be harmful for anyone? Like,

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Speaker 1: is there anyone who should be mindful of not even

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Speaker 1: taking anything with CBD? I think most people should always

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Speaker 1: be cautious. And again this is the researcher in me

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Speaker 1: and the nearest scientists where there's not a lot of data,

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Speaker 1: even though people think it's been around for thousands of years.

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Speaker 1: Everything has been around for thousands of years. Is just

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Speaker 1: that we haven't really studied it. So what we see

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Speaker 1: with CBD, the most side effects, especially higher doses is

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00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: more your g I track, your guess or intestinal a

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00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: little diarrhea of so on. It obviously can make you sleep,

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Speaker 1: so no driving if you take hidoses of CBD. If

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Speaker 1: you have epilepsy, we do see that the liver enzymes,

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00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: so the drugs that we take are metabolized in our

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Speaker 1: body right and excrete it out and your liver bricks

433
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 1: down metabolizes these and your kidney and zone gets rid

434
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: of the through year and the zone. But if people

435
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,479
Speaker 1: have a liver problems, they may not metabolize CBD in

436
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,479
Speaker 1: a way that you might have too much or so on,

437
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: And if they have the anti epileptic medications that also

438
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: have issues with the liver. Another thing is that we

439
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 1: still don't know the interaction with other medications, and it

440
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 1: comes back to the metabolism again. We all metabolize things

441
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 1: differently due to our genetics and so on, and some

442
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: medications they will overlap with the enzymes that metabolizes CBD,

443
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 1: or CBD may inhibit those enzymes that metabolizes your benzodiazepine,

444
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: for example. People think that CBD is benign neutral, but

445
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 1: it's an active ingredient that is active in your body.

446
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,360
Speaker 1: So you have to make sure if you're taking any

447
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: of the medication that it doesn't interact in how that

448
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,199
Speaker 1: medication is metabolized. It might help to speed up the

449
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: metabolism of that drug or decrease the metabolism, and people

450
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 1: that might even increase the side effects of the other

451
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: drug that they're taking. So things like that I think

452
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: are really important for people to understand. M HM. And

453
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: you've already talked earlier about how cannabis can be related

454
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: to things like memory concerns. Sometimes you see some schizophrenia

455
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 1: kinds of things and maybe psychotic kinds of symptoms. Are

456
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: there other things we should be concerned about as it

457
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: relates to hannabis and our mental health. Cannabis and mental

458
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: health is a huge, huge topic, and especially I will

459
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: say for the developing brain, and that's what I focused on.

460
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: As I mentioned in the beginning, we don't know why,

461
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 1: but for cannabis, at least, the developing brain is much

462
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: more sensitive than the adult brain. And so that's why

463
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: we see the greater sensitivity to psychosis than adults. We've

464
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 1: them studies with prenatal exposure to cannabis in moms. We

465
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: studied moms and their kids and our animal models, and

466
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: we do see emotional differences in their kids, greater stress

467
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: reactivity in their kids, and all of those things increases

468
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: mental health risk. And mental health risk is exacerbating by stress,

469
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: and we have such high stress in our communities today

470
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: that that combination for me to the developing brain and

471
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: mental health vulnerability is really important. You know, Dr Hurt.

472
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: As I'm listening to you talk, it often seems like

473
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: when I hear just people's experiences of using cannabis, they

474
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: feel mostly positive about the experiences. I'm aware that unlike

475
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: maybe something like alcohol where you kind of have these

476
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: hangovers where you can't get to work in the morning,

477
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: you're having difficulty focusing. It doesn't seem like cannabis has

478
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: maybe some of those same level of kind of side effects.

479
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: So how would someone know if they're actually struggling with

480
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: a cannabis maybe addiction or that there may be some

481
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: concern about the level of cannabis they're consuming. So the

482
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: same thing you know with alcohol. So it comes back

483
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: to the amount of use. What you describe people periodic.

484
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: They go to a party perhaps or on a weekend

485
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 1: or someone and they have a joint or so, and

486
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: that's not what the issue is. The issue is with

487
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: people will wake up the first thing, the next hour,

488
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: throughout the day, even before better, and that they can't stop.

489
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: When they stop, they have many negative emotional effect and

490
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: even aggression, they anger, the even sometimes the sweating, and

491
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 1: so cannabis used disorder. Actually about thirty of people who

492
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: use cannabis regularly will develop a cannabis use disorder, a

493
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: diagnostic disorder. So it's like many other drugs, and that

494
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: finding the cannabis, you know, consuming the cannabis takes up

495
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: a lot of their time. And this is despite that

496
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: they need to go to work or you can impact

497
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: on their work or so on. That they can't stop using.

498
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: And it's not just like I said, the periodic use

499
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 1: where they feel happy and and it's important also to

500
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: understand that not all cannabis is the same. So the

501
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: cannabis that has a low THHC concentration, it's not again

502
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: the major issue. Like we forget the sixties, seventies and eighties,

503
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: even nineties, two thousands, you have like four pc TC

504
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 1: in cannabis today it's fift and for a lot of

505
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: ten kids they dad it which gives like SEVC that

506
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: is not cannabis, that's a completely different drug. So they're

507
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: like knocked out. And that's one of the things why

508
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: cannabis is very challenging because indeed you can have the

509
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: quote uncold recreational cannabis, but you also have the hardcore

510
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: cannabis that has very high THHC. So to me, when

511
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: someone tries to stop, well, one that they have to

512
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: keep using. Two they try to stop and they're not

513
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: able to stop. They have a lot of the anxiety,

514
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: that can't sleep, the anger just like any other drug,

515
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: withdrawal symptoms in one part. Then you know the person

516
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: has a challenge with cannabis and maybe developing a cannabis

517
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 1: used disorder. So I also love to hear your thoughts

518
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: about edibles. We know that they're all kinds of like

519
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: gummies and brownies and like all kinds of different ways

520
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: that you can consume. Now, what is typically in inedible

521
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: is that typically cannabis TBD or something else. It's usually

522
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: cannabis in edibles usually TC, but now they make CBD

523
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: edibles as well, and so that's one of the things.

524
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: Also with kids in Colorado, when they made cannabis legal,

525
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: you never had kids having problems, like in emergency room problems,

526
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: but they would take the gummy beers and someone that

527
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: their parents had and would consume it, and they definitely

528
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: went to emergence room. They definitely had issues. One of

529
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: the things also, I forgot to mention with these high

530
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: potency TC cannabis, we've seen this hyper and mess that

531
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: they vomit a lot, their temperature of their bodies change

532
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 1: a lot. We're seeing that more and more, and it's

533
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: because of the high THC in cannabis. But for gunnies,

534
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: for edibles, they can be anything, and it's just that

535
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 1: because when people consume them, usually the effects then come

536
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: on a little later and then people then didn't feel it,

537
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 1: So then they start taking the next brown ear, the

538
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: next gummy beer, and so then the combination and then

539
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 1: they get a much higher response. They have like hard

540
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: palpitations that they go through a lot of the physical

541
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: issues of having too high th HD in their bodies,

542
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 1: and that's sometimes the issues that people face with edibles.

543
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,479
Speaker 1: Got it, So, what tips would you give from people

544
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 1: who maybe are interested in learning more about cannabis used?

545
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: Are like, is there a way that you can consume

546
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: cannabis safely? What kinds of safety tips would you offer

547
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,919
Speaker 1: for people who are interested in, you know, either using

548
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 1: or learning more about it. Yeah, it's really tough because

549
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: even for me when I look at the Internet and

550
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: I started to try to see, like said, what kind

551
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 1: of information is out there? The things on the internet

552
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: are so deceptive. End of the day, I do think

553
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: it depends on where you purchase your cannabis, because you

554
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: have to be sure that doesn't have any other product

555
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 1: and it's safe and also you know what the concentration is.

556
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: Even the dispensaries. They have done tests of the cannabis

557
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: sold into some dispensaries and seeing that the th HC

558
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: concentrations aren't even what they put on the labels. But

559
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 1: I think still purchasing from reputable places I think is

560
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: the first step, and like everything else, is to use

561
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: a low dose th HC and not go for these

562
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 1: higher t HC concentrations that have become so prevalent. If

563
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,399
Speaker 1: indeed just as mild whatever is what you know you're

564
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 1: looking for. And I do think at the end of

565
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: the day, have and know you have a family risk

566
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: of mental illness. I think that th HC or cannabis

567
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: is not recommended. M Okay, something else that I forgot

568
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: to ask you that I want to make sure to

569
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: go back to you. You mentioned their concerns, especially for

570
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: like a not fully developed brain. At what age is

571
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: the brain consider fully developed? I think some people will

572
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: tell you never for the men, but usually it's a

573
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: not mid twenties. You know that the brain starts to

574
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: reach full maturity. So even though we say eighteen people

575
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: can go to the military and twenty one to drink

576
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: and so, and it's actually a little longer than that.

577
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: So definitely like mid twenties before the brain reaches that

578
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: level of maturity. I mean, And that is a specific

579
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: concern I think, which is why you see like on

580
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: college campuses right when you know, people are finally out

581
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 1: of their families home and then they're experimenting maybe with

582
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: alcohol and other drugs. That is why this could be

583
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: such a big concern there, because the brain is not

584
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 1: fully developed typically at that age. Absolutely, I tell everybody,

585
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: if you want to try everything, wait till you. I

586
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 1: don't have kids myself, and I tell my neviews. I

587
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: used to tell them and my friends kids, way to

588
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: at least twenty five and then you can try. It's like,

589
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: just give your brain time to develop. Is there a

590
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,479
Speaker 1: lot of funding for the kind of work that you're doing,

591
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: not to heard, and what kind of resources are needed?

592
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 1: If not? When I started, I will tell you there

593
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 1: was not a lot of funding. And I was even

594
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 1: told that the research I was doing, I should look

595
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 1: at something else because you know, cannabis is an important

596
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: or interesting and definitely why am I studying in developing brain?

597
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 1: And when I started studying CBD, nobody was studying I

598
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 1: could even get CBD to study in our humans because

599
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: it wasn't available Today because of the changes in our

600
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: society and the legislations that have gone on across the country,

601
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: there's a lot more research focused on funding from the

602
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,919
Speaker 1: National Institute of the Health and in particular the National

603
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: Institude of Drug Abuse focused on cannabis and even CBD

604
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: as a potential treatment. There are a number of studies

605
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,919
Speaker 1: that they are supporting in that realm. It is very

606
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 1: difficult to get other types of funding. Unfortunately, it's still

607
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: very challenging, but at least now there are a lot

608
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,320
Speaker 1: more researchers in the field looking at cannabis for many things,

609
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: from its potential impact on the developing brain to its

610
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 1: potential as a treatment for many different disorders and not

611
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: just CBD, and meaning cannabis itself, and trying to understand

612
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 1: role and can we develop it as a safe medication,

613
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: as I said, for a number of different indications. So

614
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 1: we'll see, but me personally know we need more research funds.

615
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 1: But that's the nature of the world that we have

616
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 1: in science, of course. So doctor heard, where can we

617
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 1: stay connected with you for people who maybe want to

618
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,839
Speaker 1: follow your research, like what is your website? As well

619
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: as any social media handles you'd like to share. I'm

620
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 1: really bad with that so on Twitter it's like herd

621
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 1: lab h u r d lab. The one thing is

622
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 1: that people can always email. I don't know if your

623
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 1: audience will be really interested in a lot of the

624
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: deep science papers that we have, but they're all online.

625
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us, Doctor Heard. I'm

626
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 1: so glad Doctor Herd was able to share her expertise

627
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 1: with us today. To learn more about her and her work,

628
00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 1: be should to visit the show notes that Therapy for

629
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,399
Speaker 1: Black Girls dot com slash session to and be sure

630
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: to text two of your girls and ask them to

631
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: check out the episode right now. If you're looking for

632
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 1: a therapist in your area, be sure to check out

633
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 1: our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com

634
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 1: slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into

635
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 1: this topic or just be in community with other sisters,

636
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: come on over and join us in the Sister Circle.

637
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 1: It's our cozy corner of the Internet design just for

638
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy

639
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 1: for Black Girls dot com. This episode was produced by

640
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,359
Speaker 1: Freda Lucas and Alas Ellis and editing was done by

641
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 1: Dennis and Bradford. Thank you all so much for joining

642
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 1: me again this week. I look forward to continuing this

643
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,959
Speaker 1: conversation with you all real soon. Take it care,