WEBVTT - Hillary Clinton has no complaints 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:06.640 Hi, everyone, I'm Katie Curic and this is next question. 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:12.800 My guest this week really needs no introduction. Hello, my dear, 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:15.880 how are you. I'm good? Thank you so much for 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:19.799 doing this. Oh I love your glasses, Katie. Oh thanks, 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:24.040 that's right. It's Hillary Clinton. Among her many accolades, including 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:28.440 the two thousand sixteen Democratic nominee for president, secretary of State, 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:33.120 and lawyer, Hillary Clinton is an advocate, author, proud grandma, 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:37.400 and podcaster. I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is you and 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:40.720 me both where I get into some of today's biggest 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:46.159 questions with all kinds of amazing people. Madam's secretary. Hey, 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:48.720 I'm just going to call her. Hillary took time out 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:51.000 of her busy schedule to talk with me about some 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:53.520 of the issues that are top of mind right now, 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:57.320 from the COVID vaccine and post pandemic life to the 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:01.600 spread of disinformation and police seen in America. But we 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:05.640 also spent some time discussing our personal stories, the ways 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:09.600 they weirdly intersect, and why women have had such a 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:12.600 hard time getting the respect they deserve at home and 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:16.040 in the workforce, and why now may finally be the 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:21.360 time society moves the needle on gender equality. Amen, Sister Katie. 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:25.080 I had such a good time with Hillary Clinton. I 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:27.480 just loved our conversation so much. I didn't want it 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:33.679 to end. So let's just get to it. Let me 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:38.280 just start by asking Hillary Clinton, how the hell are you? 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:41.080 You know, all things considered, I'm knocking on wood as 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:46.119 I answer you. I'm great. I have no complaints. I've 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:49.520 been hold like so many of us, with only a 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:56.520 few exceptions of several funerals and one presidential inauguration. Um. 0:01:56.520 --> 0:02:01.720 But we've remained healthy. Uh. We've had had a great 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:05.040 set up because our grandchildren, our daughter and son in law, 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:08.320 were nearby, so we got to spend time with them. 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:11.880 You know. I I am glad to see us. I 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:15.400 hope nearing the end of this pandemic, but personally we're 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:20.880 very very grateful. Well, you mentioned nearing the end, and 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:24.880 my daughter Ellie is getting married in July, so fingers crossed. 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:30.200 But I'm still nervous. I'm still nervous about this reemergence. 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:34.800 I'm worried about variants. Um. It seems there's still a 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:38.919 level of uncertainty. UM. And there's still people who are 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:42.560 COVID deniers. I know, how have you been able to 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:48.800 or how are you wrapping your head around that? I am, um, 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:56.280 very sorry that, uh, the beginning of this pandemic was 0:02:56.400 --> 0:03:01.200 in effect cast as a political uh challenge as opposed 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:04.760 to a scientific and public health challenge. And what isn't 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:08.200 these days? Hillary? Well, but that that didn't have to be. 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:11.560 You're right, I mean, everything is being you know, diced 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:14.960 and chopped up and put into these preexisting categories. But 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:18.639 it turned into a culture war as opposed to, Hey, 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:21.360 we're all in this together, let's get through it, let's 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:24.800 save as many lives as possible, let's get everybody vaccinated. 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:29.240 So I do share your concerns because it appears that 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:33.520 there are significant parts of our population and chunks of 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:38.960 our country that are reluctant or opposed to being vaccinated. Uh. 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:43.080 But I am hoping that we will keep moving forward 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:46.560 so that we get you know, the vast majority of 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:51.840 adults and then slowly kids by early next year. But 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:54.760 once we get the vast majority of adults, I certainly 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:58.240 am going to breathe easier. But they're not sure I'm 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:00.640 going to do everything, but I am gonna, I mean 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:04.840 in terms of like going to your usual rave yeah, 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:09.120 my usual rave, including indoor restaurants. I think I'll take 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:12.320 all that a little bit uh slow, but I'm going 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:14.880 to feel better about it. Well. As you say, it 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:17.520 has been turned into a culture war. And I was 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:22.159 shocked when I read that, according to one poll, of 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:26.680 Republican men are refusing to get vaccinated. Yeah, I mean, 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:31.080 go figure, Katie. I mean that is such a uh 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:37.479 sign of our times. Sadly that so many um, so 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:47.000 many people, particularly Republicans, are now very serious reality deniers. Obviously, 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:51.200 the pandemic is the biggest reality they deny, but they 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:54.160 deny a lot of other realities as well. And I 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:58.440 don't know what we're going to do other than, you know, 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:00.839 keep making the case when it comes to the pandemic 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:04.160 and keep winning elections when it comes to politics. I mean, 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:06.479 there doesn't seem to be much else that will change 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:08.599 their minds. I'm going to talk to you a little 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:14.040 bit later, Hillary about disinformation, misinformation of malinformation, but just 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:16.159 just while we're on the subject of the pandemic. I 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:20.840 recently interviewed sanche Kupta, who told me a Harvard researcher 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:24.800 told him that if for four weeks everybody just wore 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:27.800 a high filtration mask when they went out in public. 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:32.760 If everybody did that, it would have ended a pandemic. 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:38.360 And just four weeks watching how this was managed, what 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:43.720 were you thinking? I can only imagine. I was shocked 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:49.279 and appalled at the way that Trump and his White 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:55.680 House UM and his enablers treated the pandemic. And the 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:58.560 the secret uh is that if he had done even 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:01.440 a mediocre job on the pandemic, he could have been 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:06.200 reelected because of the electoral College. So he actually heard 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:10.320 his own re election chances by pandering to the most 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:17.880 radical conspiracy theorists deniers um in his political ambit, and 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:21.360 it cost a lot of lives. I think they've now 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:25.280 already been several studies which showed not only what you said, Katie, 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:29.120 that we could have really diminished the loss of life 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:33.799 and hospitalization if we had all been serious about masking 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:37.919 and social distancing and staying indoors for four weeks, but 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:42.360 we also could have caught up. Even though we might 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:44.839 have fumbled the start of it because this was a 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:48.880 new phenomenon. A lot of people were uncertain and confused 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:52.760 about it. But you know, Trump just kept doubling down 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:57.960 on the falsehoods calling it a hoax, uh, you know, 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:01.919 telling people they could use bleed, coming up with drugs 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:05.640 that had no positive effect on the virus, on and 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:10.120 on we go. And so it's fair to say that 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:14.280 that his mouthfeasance in office and those who enabled him, 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:18.160 we're responsible for us having a higher death toll than 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:20.320 I think we should have had. I think it was 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:25.160 also difficult for people to witness science unfolding. You know, 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:29.120 science didn't immediately have all the answers. It was a 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:32.640 work in progress because this was, you know, the key 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:37.680 word being novel. And I think that this mistrust in 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:42.120 science that already existed was exacerbated by the nature of 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:47.600 really understanding what was a complicated virus. Yes, well, I 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:51.160 think that's true. I think though, we would have had 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:56.760 a somewhat better response if when the scientists were basically saying, look, 0:07:56.800 --> 0:08:00.560 we're learning as we go, we're not sure, we're going 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:03.000 to have to try some things. We need more data, 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:05.920 if there had been political leaders who had said, yeah, 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:08.560 that's the way science operates. Science is a you know, 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:13.200 a learning phenomenon. You keep testing things. But instead it 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:15.720 was oh, okay, well they don't know anything. They don't 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:18.440 know more than you know, I know. So therefore listened 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:23.160 to me and that became a dead end because you're right, 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:27.040 there was already a kind of anti evidence, anti fact, 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:32.360 anti science feeling among certain people in our country expertise 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:36.280 or some time. Yeah, and so there was a there 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:42.280 was an unfortunate uh amplifying of that by political leaders 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:48.560 who themselves were either uh deliberately uh you know, ignorant 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:51.720 uh and indifferent or malicious in the way that they 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:55.000 treated science. So would you call it a massive failure 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:58.600 of leadership? Of course, of course, I think that. I 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:05.520 think that the pandemic um showed how important uh deliberative, 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:08.880 fact based leadership is. And we can see that when 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:15.160 we compare with the Biden administration how they're handling matters. 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:18.719 And look, everybody's tired of being told to mask up 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:21.319 and stay socially distanced. People are sick of it. They 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:24.080 want to get on with their lives, especially people who 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:28.440 have been vaccinated. But you know, President Biden and his 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:33.720 team keep modeling good behavior and keep talking about the 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:37.760 importance of getting vaccinated, and they hit some huge numbers 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:41.080 in their first hundred days, two hundred million shots. So 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:46.080 the difference I think illustrates even more dramatically how inept 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:51.959 and cruel, uh and ineffective and deadly the leadership of 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:56.199 the Trump team was. When we come back, have things 0:09:56.320 --> 0:10:00.680 really changed for women? Hillary shares of revealing story from 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:04.080 early in her career that honestly I had never heard 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:18.560 and I couldn't believe that's right after this, let's talk 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:22.800 about kind of the long view of what's happening in 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:28.000 this country. Polarization and some other things that are really 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:31.760 coming to a head I think, or have been, I 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:36.800 think in the last three or four years. And I 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:40.080 covered you when you first entered the national scene. I 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:43.960 remember I did your very first interview as First Lady 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:47.800 in nine. Since we're outside the East Wing, I have 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:51.199 to ask you, why did you decide to have an 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:53.480 office in the West wing of the White House when 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:56.319 all the First Ladies before you have worked out of 0:10:56.360 --> 0:11:00.160 the East Wing. Well, because there are different functions that 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:04.080 go with being involved in the activities of the First Lady. 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:08.080 You've been challenging the expectations of women in politics and 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:12.959 I think women in general ever since. So thinking about 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:17.840 that interview in even prior to that, the campaign, where 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:22.480 you were viewed a certain way UM and and became 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:29.280 a lightning rod in many ways to now. And I 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:32.600 mean it's just sort of unbelievable. It's almost thirty years. 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:37.760 Do you think things have changed for women? And I 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:42.240 wonder if you're going to tell me yes and no, Well, 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:44.880 I think that's the right answer. I think that yes, 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:50.600 absolutely and for the better. A lot more barriers have 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:56.400 been broken, opportunities have been opened. Uh. So many women 0:11:56.600 --> 0:12:00.400 have pursued their dreams against odds but demonstrate they could 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:05.520 be overcome. On the global scale, we can look at 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:09.680 the increase in girls going to school and UM, women's 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:15.360 health care improving, and there's a lot of positive indicators 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:19.320 that progress has been made. At the same time, we 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:23.079 know there's still as a double standard. We know that 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:29.360 women are still judged almost in a a primeval way 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:34.640 based on expectations and stereotypes as to what is expected 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:40.679 or should be expected of women. We know that UM 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:47.160 there has been a backlash UM that has been complicated 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:52.719 but nevertheless real in terms of UM kind of undermining 0:12:52.760 --> 0:13:00.600 women's confidence and women's sense of autonomy and agency. Uh. 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:05.560 And we know that the pandemic has disproportionately impacted women 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:08.679 both in the point five million two point five million 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:15.480 women workforce, and people say this is setting us back decades. Well, 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:19.120 I think if it continues, that's exactly the case, because 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:22.640 why did they leave. Well, some lost their jobs, but 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:26.359 some couldn't keep their jobs because they had no childcare. 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:31.040 The schools were not open. Uh. There was a crisis 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:34.840 uh that women faced in our country and around the 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:41.240 world between their work lives and their family lives and 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:50.080 personal responsibilities. And it was a huge disruption to the 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:54.240 involvement of women in the paid workforce. UH. We've seen 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:59.840 a lot of evidence of increased intimate domestic violence with 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.000 and families in other parts of the world. We've seen 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:07.640 an increase in child marriage because you know, economies shut down, 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:11.040 families didn't have money. They were back to you know, 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:15.800 offering their daughters uh into marriage as child brides. So 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.600 we know that there's going to be um a steep 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:23.400 curve coming out of this pandemic. UH. And a lot 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:25.640 of people talk about how, oh my gosh, the economy 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:28.320 is gonna take off like it did over the after 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:34.080 the last huge UH influenza break in nineteen eighteen. So 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:36.280 we had the Roaring twenties coming out of what was 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:40.080 a two year uh struggle and at that time, and 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:44.560 I think there will be um a burst of economic activity, 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:46.640 but I think we have to watch carefully as to 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:50.400 whether that includes women being able to get back on 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:54.760 their feet economically, get back into the workforce and be supported. 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:59.880 And I'm thrilled that finally people are talking about caregiving 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.200 as a part of the economy, not as a family 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:09.880 related service, but as deeply interconnected with our economic prosperity. 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:15.160 And I'm hoping that whatever comes of the infrastructure debate 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:20.760 in Washington, that it includes a recognition that childcare and 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:25.600 the kind of supporting through paid family leave that we 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:27.880 don't have in our country and a broad scale the 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:32.440 only industrialized nation that doesn't happen, it doesn't mandate it. Yep. 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:35.720 And I think, you know, it's going to be interesting, Katie, 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:40.160 to see whether the shock of the pandemic wears off 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:44.560 quickly without much learning from it. Uh so we go 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:47.360 back to our old ways. We don't invest in public health, 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:50.800 we don't invest in science and research, we don't invest 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:54.200 in the caring economy. Or whether people will finally say, 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:57.000 you know what, we can't let this happen again, because 0:15:57.000 --> 0:15:59.920 sure enough every scientist says, you know, there's all kinds 0:15:59.920 --> 0:16:02.480 of crazy. You know, virus is out there in the 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.680 animal population, and most likely another will jump to us, 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:09.840 So let's get ready. Yeah. I mean, I can't believe 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:14.400 we're still talking about this, you know, um and and 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:16.680 and I don't know what it'll take to move the 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:20.680 needle to kind of have this kind of a similar 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:25.760 reckoning that we've seen in other social issues, because I think, uh, 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:29.960 for whatever reason, it just doesn't seem to break through. 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:35.600 But maybe maybe this will shake some people up and 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:40.040 make the need for uh, you know, paid family leave 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:45.280 and childcare and also just attitudes about the division of 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:47.880 labor in the phone. You know, a lot of that 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:50.880 can't be fixed by policy. It has to be fixed 0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:54.680 by attitudes and behavior. Melinda Gates, as you know, said 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:57.840 women do an average at like seven more years of 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:02.000 child wearing and house work duty and just the business 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:04.720 of taking care of a home than men do. I 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:07.399 do think I don't know about Mark and Chelsea, but 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:11.120 I do think that this generation of parents, now these 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:16.320 are obviously in a certain subset of privileged people, but 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:20.480 they're starting to understand that if it doesn't take a 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:23.560 village to raise the child a child, it definitely takes 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:27.080 a mother and a father. Well, we could, we don't 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:30.160 want to necessarily get into a traditional nuclear family, but 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:33.520 it can't all fall on the working woman to do 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:39.159 the additional amount of work that it takes raising a child. Amen. Amen, 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:45.600 sister Katie, right, preach right. And I do think there 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:49.639 is um a recognition and even a little bit of 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:53.360 movement in the right direction when it comes to sharing 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:58.000 labor around the house and particularly with respect to child wearing. 0:17:58.240 --> 0:17:59.920 But I want to go back to what you said 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:02.760 about whether or not this is going to make an impression, 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:07.359 and it really it's going to depend upon how people 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:11.000 talk about America's future, what kind of future we want 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:15.600 to have together. And I've become increasingly convinced over the 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:18.399 last year while I've had a lot of time on 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:21.960 my hands that we need we need a new American 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:27.199 story that includes everybody, um and gives you know, proper 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:30.840 respect to everybody's role in our society, like the essential workers. 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:33.600 What would we have done without people showing up to 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:35.959 work in our hospitals, showing up to work in our 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:40.480 grocery stores and our pharmacies and all the other essential 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:46.480 services that they performed, and so it's incumbent upon all 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:50.560 of us, but particularly people not only with a voice, 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:54.920 for people who are in the public arena to be 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.119 talking about that new future we want. So if you 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:01.400 take paid family leave, I mean opposition to it has 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:06.040 always been, you know, that will undermine the family. Uh, 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:09.639 nobody's business from her business or business. And why should 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:13.320 people without children be taxed to help people with children? 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:16.200 I mean, all of these kinds of arguments. Well, I 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:22.040 think if you've got uh smart uh political leadership and 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:25.360 public voices out there saying, I think we just now 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:29.600 learned how interconnected we really are, and it is about 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:33.080 helping everybody because it's in everybody's interests that we do. 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:35.240 So we're just going to have to tell a different 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:40.399 story because the old story is being just so distorted 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:43.720 and undermined, and for good reason in some areas, but 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:47.800 also for nefarious reasons by people who you know, want 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:50.679 to turn the clock back or people who want to 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:53.160 ignore everything that happened in the past. I mean, there's 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:56.680 a middle ground here about Yes, are we a perfect nation? 0:19:56.880 --> 0:19:59.879 Absolutely not. Have we accomplished a lot that we should 0:19:59.880 --> 0:20:02.440 be proud of and build on absolutely yes, So how 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:04.679 are we going to do that together and go forward 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:08.280 from there? I don't even necessarily want to go back 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:11.760 to two thousand sixteen, but just listening to you and 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:15.480 your common sense rhetoric and I don't even want to 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:20.400 call it rhetoric, but um, you know, views I think 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:24.600 I would be so bitter about two thousand sixteen, Hillary, 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:30.520 and so angry and look look what we got. Um, 0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:34.439 have you been able to kind of I know you 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:38.000 wrote a book, but but still do you do you 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:41.000 still kind of wake up and think what the hell happened? 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:46.960 How could this happen? I am still so pissed, I 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:50.320 because I don't know. I'm not a very generous person, 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:55.399 and I would be so bitter. I just would. Well, 0:20:55.800 --> 0:21:01.000 I certainly have those moments when I just have to 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:05.919 either figuratively or literally smack my forehead, like you know, 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:09.720 how did this happen? Uh? And every day that goes 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:13.280 by and we learn more, and I think eventually, Katie, 0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:15.399 a lot more will come out. I mean just in 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:18.800 this past week we learned what I assumed, and I 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:21.840 think most fair minded people did that. You know, the 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:25.040 Trump campaign was sharing their polling with the Russians. Now, 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:27.080 why would they do that. They were doing it because 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:31.440 they were targeting, and they were very um clearly targeting 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:37.439 based on polling and other analytical information from Cambridge Analytica 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:42.640 and others too. Discourage voters, suppressed voters, change voters minds. 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:45.800 We know all of that, and we're gonna find out more. Um. 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:49.919 I try really hard not to go down that rabbit 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:53.480 hole because I did write a book, and obviously I've 0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:57.119 moved on with my life except to try to understand 0:21:57.119 --> 0:22:01.840 what are the lessons. And so when the campaign was 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:07.679 upon us starting in you know, nearly every Democrat running, 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:10.440 not all, but nearly every Democrat either came to see 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:12.400 me in person or called me to talk with me. 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:17.080 And you know, I tried to you know, alert them, 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:23.560 uh to the disproportionate impact that social media has in 0:22:23.760 --> 0:22:29.520 favor of the right wing the Republican Party, their associates, 0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:33.080 and how they had to be constantly monitoring that. It 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:35.440 kind of took us by surprise, to be honest. I mean, 0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:41.040 you know, we learned in you know retrospect um all 0:22:41.080 --> 0:22:43.840 of the lies and the crazy stories and everything that 0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:47.080 we're going was going on, particularly on Facebook. So I 0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:50.600 tried to alert all of the campaigns, and I had 0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:53.760 some really good conversations with a number of the candidates. 0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:59.520 I also tried to underscore how important it was, especially 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:05.280 when we had flipped governorships and secretaries of state in 0:23:05.320 --> 0:23:10.240 the election to zero in on voter suppression. Uh. So 0:23:10.560 --> 0:23:15.199 I've tried to put my own um learning uh and 0:23:15.280 --> 0:23:19.960 my disappointment from what happened in to work on behalf 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:25.000 of causes and candidates that I, you know, support, because 0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:28.239 as I say, I don't even think we have a 0:23:28.400 --> 0:23:33.520 full understanding yet. I want to see the unredacted Mueller report. 0:23:34.520 --> 0:23:38.399 I want to see additional intelligence like what we learned 0:23:39.119 --> 0:23:44.960 when the Russian agent Columnic was sanctioned just this past 0:23:45.000 --> 0:23:48.760 week by the new Treasury Department about what the Russians 0:23:48.800 --> 0:23:52.000 were doing. I want to keep digging into the connections 0:23:52.080 --> 0:23:57.159 with Cambridge Analytic Wiki leaks and others, because because people 0:23:57.200 --> 0:23:59.240 listening to this right now are going to be like, 0:24:00.040 --> 0:24:03.040 give it up, woman, No, it's all about the future. 0:24:03.600 --> 0:24:08.080 It's all about the future because we are under constant 0:24:08.160 --> 0:24:12.800 cyber attack. Our government and all of our agencies are, 0:24:12.800 --> 0:24:17.920 our businesses are, individuals are, and our political system has 0:24:18.000 --> 0:24:21.919 been uh. And you know, if people are willing to 0:24:21.960 --> 0:24:25.240 give up our freedom and our sovereignty. Fine, you know, 0:24:25.320 --> 0:24:28.240 it's okay if that's what they want. I think that 0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:31.560 would be beyond dreadful mistake. However, do you think do 0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:35.360 you think Hillary that that Putin had something or has 0:24:35.520 --> 0:24:39.119 something on President Trump? Do you think it was a 0:24:39.280 --> 0:24:45.480 larger sort of desire to um up end confidence and 0:24:45.760 --> 0:24:49.200 democracy or do you think it was a craven desire 0:24:49.760 --> 0:24:52.479 on the part of the Trump campaign to win at 0:24:52.480 --> 0:24:55.840 any costs, or was it a confluence of all these things. 0:24:56.040 --> 0:25:00.000 I think it was a confluence. I think that uh, 0:25:00.080 --> 0:25:02.680 you know, Putin and as I write in my book 0:25:02.680 --> 0:25:06.800 about the election what happened, understood a few years ago 0:25:06.960 --> 0:25:12.040 that he couldn't compete economically, he couldn't compete strategically, but 0:25:12.160 --> 0:25:16.040 he could compete tactically with the United States, both in 0:25:16.080 --> 0:25:22.240 its you know it's nearby regions like Ukraine, but also 0:25:22.600 --> 0:25:28.040 in uh cyber warfare. And there were you know, there 0:25:28.040 --> 0:25:34.159 were documents written by h Russian military planners basically laying 0:25:34.160 --> 0:25:38.399 this out and it was designed to upend confidence in 0:25:38.400 --> 0:25:42.520 our democracy, to make us distrust each other, uh, to 0:25:42.840 --> 0:25:48.000 inject even more divisiveness, and that that was a strategy 0:25:48.680 --> 0:25:53.760 that was going to, you know, make the United States weaker. Uh, well, 0:25:53.840 --> 0:25:58.399 it's worn't it has worked. And the idea that there are, 0:25:58.480 --> 0:26:01.920 unfortunately people in public life, you know, leading with Trump 0:26:02.440 --> 0:26:09.320 who for whatever reason, identify with Putin, identify with his 0:26:09.920 --> 0:26:15.200 um approach to governing and his ruthlessness towards the press 0:26:15.240 --> 0:26:21.760 toward political opposition, is very surprising to me, and especially 0:26:21.800 --> 0:26:24.119 since most of it's coming from the Republican Party that 0:26:24.280 --> 0:26:29.840 used to have a much more skeptical view about authoritarianism, 0:26:30.000 --> 0:26:34.520 or a leader who believes he can accomplish more through 0:26:34.560 --> 0:26:40.040 division than than uniting exactly. Yeah, well, that that is 0:26:40.119 --> 0:26:44.800 his strategy obviously. Yeah, let's let's talk about um. Just 0:26:45.200 --> 0:26:49.200 one thing that happened, which I actually I'm embarrassed to 0:26:49.200 --> 0:26:52.520 say I hadn't really thought about this or observed it 0:26:53.520 --> 0:26:56.479 until I was preparing for this podcast. But it's something 0:26:56.520 --> 0:27:00.280 that you've talked about recently following the election, was the 0:27:00.320 --> 0:27:05.119 so called erasure of Hillary Clinton. And I was shocked 0:27:05.720 --> 0:27:08.000 that you were not on the list of honorees for 0:27:08.080 --> 0:27:12.280 the two thousand seventeen Women's March protesting Trump, an event 0:27:12.400 --> 0:27:16.240 that was in large part inspired by your presidential run 0:27:16.359 --> 0:27:19.520 and loss. How do you explain that? Oh, I don't. 0:27:19.280 --> 0:27:22.640 I don't even try to explain that, UM, because you're 0:27:22.720 --> 0:27:25.640 right at it. The idea generated with people who had 0:27:25.640 --> 0:27:28.159 supported me. But it turned out fine. I mean, it 0:27:28.200 --> 0:27:33.879 was the biggest global protest in history. And but it 0:27:33.960 --> 0:27:37.800 must be galling on some level a little bit. I 0:27:37.800 --> 0:27:41.719 mean that that stuff doesn't bother me. I mean, you know, UM, 0:27:41.760 --> 0:27:46.080 a lot of people, uh, a lot of people were 0:27:46.200 --> 0:27:51.200 really upset by the election. They still are. I mean, 0:27:51.240 --> 0:27:56.440 I'm constantly reading UM how people are still unresolved and 0:27:56.760 --> 0:28:01.840 and mournful about it. UM. And you know, I think 0:28:01.920 --> 0:28:06.400