1 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, I'm Katie Curic and this is next question. 2 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: My guest this week really needs no introduction. Hello, my dear, 3 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: how are you. I'm good? Thank you so much for 4 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 1: doing this. Oh I love your glasses, Katie. Oh thanks, 5 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: that's right. It's Hillary Clinton. Among her many accolades, including 6 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: the two thousand sixteen Democratic nominee for president, secretary of State, 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: and lawyer, Hillary Clinton is an advocate, author, proud grandma, 8 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: and podcaster. I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is you and 9 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: me both where I get into some of today's biggest 10 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: questions with all kinds of amazing people. Madam's secretary. Hey, 11 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: I'm just going to call her. Hillary took time out 12 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: of her busy schedule to talk with me about some 13 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 1: of the issues that are top of mind right now, 14 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: from the COVID vaccine and post pandemic life to the 15 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: spread of disinformation and police seen in America. But we 16 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: also spent some time discussing our personal stories, the ways 17 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: they weirdly intersect, and why women have had such a 18 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: hard time getting the respect they deserve at home and 19 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 1: in the workforce, and why now may finally be the 20 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: time society moves the needle on gender equality. Amen, Sister Katie. 21 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: I had such a good time with Hillary Clinton. I 22 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: just loved our conversation so much. I didn't want it 23 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: to end. So let's just get to it. Let me 24 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: just start by asking Hillary Clinton, how the hell are you? 25 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: You know, all things considered, I'm knocking on wood as 26 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:46,119 Speaker 1: I answer you. I'm great. I have no complaints. I've 27 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: been hold like so many of us, with only a 28 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: few exceptions of several funerals and one presidential inauguration. Um. 29 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: But we've remained healthy. Uh. We've had had a great 30 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: set up because our grandchildren, our daughter and son in law, 31 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: were nearby, so we got to spend time with them. 32 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: You know. I I am glad to see us. I 33 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: hope nearing the end of this pandemic, but personally we're 34 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: very very grateful. Well, you mentioned nearing the end, and 35 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: my daughter Ellie is getting married in July, so fingers crossed. 36 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: But I'm still nervous. I'm still nervous about this reemergence. 37 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: I'm worried about variants. Um. It seems there's still a 38 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 1: level of uncertainty. UM. And there's still people who are 39 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: COVID deniers. I know, how have you been able to 40 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: or how are you wrapping your head around that? I am, um, 41 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: very sorry that, uh, the beginning of this pandemic was 42 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: in effect cast as a political uh challenge as opposed 43 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: to a scientific and public health challenge. And what isn't 44 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: these days? Hillary? Well, but that that didn't have to be. 45 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: You're right, I mean, everything is being you know, diced 46 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: and chopped up and put into these preexisting categories. But 47 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 1: it turned into a culture war as opposed to, Hey, 48 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 1: we're all in this together, let's get through it, let's 49 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: save as many lives as possible, let's get everybody vaccinated. 50 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: So I do share your concerns because it appears that 51 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: there are significant parts of our population and chunks of 52 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: our country that are reluctant or opposed to being vaccinated. Uh. 53 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: But I am hoping that we will keep moving forward 54 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: so that we get you know, the vast majority of 55 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: adults and then slowly kids by early next year. But 56 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: once we get the vast majority of adults, I certainly 57 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: am going to breathe easier. But they're not sure I'm 58 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: going to do everything, but I am gonna, I mean 59 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: in terms of like going to your usual rave yeah, 60 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: my usual rave, including indoor restaurants. I think I'll take 61 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: all that a little bit uh slow, but I'm going 62 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: to feel better about it. Well. As you say, it 63 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: has been turned into a culture war. And I was 64 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: shocked when I read that, according to one poll, of 65 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: Republican men are refusing to get vaccinated. Yeah, I mean, 66 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: go figure, Katie. I mean that is such a uh 67 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 1: sign of our times. Sadly that so many um, so 68 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: many people, particularly Republicans, are now very serious reality deniers. Obviously, 69 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: the pandemic is the biggest reality they deny, but they 70 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 1: deny a lot of other realities as well. And I 71 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: don't know what we're going to do other than, you know, 72 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 1: keep making the case when it comes to the pandemic 73 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 1: and keep winning elections when it comes to politics. I mean, 74 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: there doesn't seem to be much else that will change 75 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: their minds. I'm going to talk to you a little 76 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 1: bit later, Hillary about disinformation, misinformation of malinformation, but just 77 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 1: just while we're on the subject of the pandemic. I 78 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 1: recently interviewed sanche Kupta, who told me a Harvard researcher 79 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: told him that if for four weeks everybody just wore 80 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: a high filtration mask when they went out in public. 81 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: If everybody did that, it would have ended a pandemic. 82 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: And just four weeks watching how this was managed, what 83 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 1: were you thinking? I can only imagine. I was shocked 84 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 1: and appalled at the way that Trump and his White 85 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: House UM and his enablers treated the pandemic. And the 86 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: the secret uh is that if he had done even 87 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: a mediocre job on the pandemic, he could have been 88 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: reelected because of the electoral College. So he actually heard 89 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: his own re election chances by pandering to the most 90 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: radical conspiracy theorists deniers um in his political ambit, and 91 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: it cost a lot of lives. I think they've now 92 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 1: already been several studies which showed not only what you said, Katie, 93 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: that we could have really diminished the loss of life 94 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:33,799 Speaker 1: and hospitalization if we had all been serious about masking 95 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,919 Speaker 1: and social distancing and staying indoors for four weeks, but 96 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: we also could have caught up. Even though we might 97 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 1: have fumbled the start of it because this was a 98 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: new phenomenon. A lot of people were uncertain and confused 99 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: about it. But you know, Trump just kept doubling down 100 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: on the falsehoods calling it a hoax, uh, you know, 101 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 1: telling people they could use bleed, coming up with drugs 102 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: that had no positive effect on the virus, on and 103 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: on we go. And so it's fair to say that 104 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: that his mouthfeasance in office and those who enabled him, 105 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: we're responsible for us having a higher death toll than 106 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: I think we should have had. I think it was 107 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: also difficult for people to witness science unfolding. You know, 108 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: science didn't immediately have all the answers. It was a 109 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: work in progress because this was, you know, the key 110 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: word being novel. And I think that this mistrust in 111 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: science that already existed was exacerbated by the nature of 112 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: really understanding what was a complicated virus. Yes, well, I 113 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: think that's true. I think though, we would have had 114 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: a somewhat better response if when the scientists were basically saying, look, 115 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: we're learning as we go, we're not sure, we're going 116 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: to have to try some things. We need more data, 117 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: if there had been political leaders who had said, yeah, 118 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: that's the way science operates. Science is a you know, 119 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: a learning phenomenon. You keep testing things. But instead it 120 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: was oh, okay, well they don't know anything. They don't 121 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: know more than you know, I know. So therefore listened 122 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: to me and that became a dead end because you're right, 123 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: there was already a kind of anti evidence, anti fact, 124 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: anti science feeling among certain people in our country expertise 125 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: or some time. Yeah, and so there was a there 126 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: was an unfortunate uh amplifying of that by political leaders 127 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 1: who themselves were either uh deliberately uh you know, ignorant 128 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: uh and indifferent or malicious in the way that they 129 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: treated science. So would you call it a massive failure 130 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: of leadership? Of course, of course, I think that. I 131 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: think that the pandemic um showed how important uh deliberative, 132 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: fact based leadership is. And we can see that when 133 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: we compare with the Biden administration how they're handling matters. 134 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,719 Speaker 1: And look, everybody's tired of being told to mask up 135 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 1: and stay socially distanced. People are sick of it. They 136 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: want to get on with their lives, especially people who 137 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 1: have been vaccinated. But you know, President Biden and his 138 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: team keep modeling good behavior and keep talking about the 139 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: importance of getting vaccinated, and they hit some huge numbers 140 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 1: in their first hundred days, two hundred million shots. So 141 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: the difference I think illustrates even more dramatically how inept 142 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:51,959 Speaker 1: and cruel, uh and ineffective and deadly the leadership of 143 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 1: the Trump team was. When we come back, have things 144 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 1: really changed for women? Hillary shares of revealing story from 145 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: early in her career that honestly I had never heard 146 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 1: and I couldn't believe that's right after this, let's talk 147 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: about kind of the long view of what's happening in 148 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: this country. Polarization and some other things that are really 149 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: coming to a head I think, or have been, I 150 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: think in the last three or four years. And I 151 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: covered you when you first entered the national scene. I 152 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 1: remember I did your very first interview as First Lady 153 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: in nine. Since we're outside the East Wing, I have 154 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 1: to ask you, why did you decide to have an 155 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: office in the West wing of the White House when 156 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,319 Speaker 1: all the First Ladies before you have worked out of 157 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: the East Wing. Well, because there are different functions that 158 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 1: go with being involved in the activities of the First Lady. 159 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: You've been challenging the expectations of women in politics and 160 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 1: I think women in general ever since. So thinking about 161 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: that interview in even prior to that, the campaign, where 162 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: you were viewed a certain way UM and and became 163 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: a lightning rod in many ways to now. And I 164 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: mean it's just sort of unbelievable. It's almost thirty years. 165 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: Do you think things have changed for women? And I 166 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: wonder if you're going to tell me yes and no, Well, 167 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: I think that's the right answer. I think that yes, 168 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: absolutely and for the better. A lot more barriers have 169 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: been broken, opportunities have been opened. Uh. So many women 170 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: have pursued their dreams against odds but demonstrate they could 171 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: be overcome. On the global scale, we can look at 172 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 1: the increase in girls going to school and UM, women's 173 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: health care improving, and there's a lot of positive indicators 174 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 1: that progress has been made. At the same time, we 175 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,079 Speaker 1: know there's still as a double standard. We know that 176 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: women are still judged almost in a a primeval way 177 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: based on expectations and stereotypes as to what is expected 178 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 1: or should be expected of women. We know that UM 179 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: there has been a backlash UM that has been complicated 180 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:52,719 Speaker 1: but nevertheless real in terms of UM kind of undermining 181 00:12:52,760 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: women's confidence and women's sense of autonomy and agency. Uh. 182 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: And we know that the pandemic has disproportionately impacted women 183 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,679 Speaker 1: both in the point five million two point five million 184 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: women workforce, and people say this is setting us back decades. Well, 185 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: I think if it continues, that's exactly the case, because 186 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: why did they leave. Well, some lost their jobs, but 187 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,359 Speaker 1: some couldn't keep their jobs because they had no childcare. 188 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: The schools were not open. Uh. There was a crisis 189 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: uh that women faced in our country and around the 190 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: world between their work lives and their family lives and 191 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 1: personal responsibilities. And it was a huge disruption to the 192 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: involvement of women in the paid workforce. UH. We've seen 193 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: a lot of evidence of increased intimate domestic violence with 194 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: and families in other parts of the world. We've seen 195 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: an increase in child marriage because you know, economies shut down, 196 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: families didn't have money. They were back to you know, 197 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: offering their daughters uh into marriage as child brides. So 198 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: we know that there's going to be um a steep 199 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: curve coming out of this pandemic. UH. And a lot 200 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: of people talk about how, oh my gosh, the economy 201 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: is gonna take off like it did over the after 202 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: the last huge UH influenza break in nineteen eighteen. So 203 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: we had the Roaring twenties coming out of what was 204 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: a two year uh struggle and at that time, and 205 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: I think there will be um a burst of economic activity, 206 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: but I think we have to watch carefully as to 207 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: whether that includes women being able to get back on 208 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: their feet economically, get back into the workforce and be supported. 209 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: And I'm thrilled that finally people are talking about caregiving 210 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: as a part of the economy, not as a family 211 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: related service, but as deeply interconnected with our economic prosperity. 212 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: And I'm hoping that whatever comes of the infrastructure debate 213 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: in Washington, that it includes a recognition that childcare and 214 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: the kind of supporting through paid family leave that we 215 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: don't have in our country and a broad scale the 216 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: only industrialized nation that doesn't happen, it doesn't mandate it. Yep. 217 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: And I think, you know, it's going to be interesting, Katie, 218 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: to see whether the shock of the pandemic wears off 219 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: quickly without much learning from it. Uh so we go 220 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: back to our old ways. We don't invest in public health, 221 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: we don't invest in science and research, we don't invest 222 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: in the caring economy. Or whether people will finally say, 223 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: you know what, we can't let this happen again, because 224 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: sure enough every scientist says, you know, there's all kinds 225 00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: of crazy. You know, virus is out there in the 226 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: animal population, and most likely another will jump to us, 227 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: So let's get ready. Yeah. I mean, I can't believe 228 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: we're still talking about this, you know, um and and 229 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: and I don't know what it'll take to move the 230 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: needle to kind of have this kind of a similar 231 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: reckoning that we've seen in other social issues, because I think, uh, 232 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, it just doesn't seem to break through. 233 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: But maybe maybe this will shake some people up and 234 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: make the need for uh, you know, paid family leave 235 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: and childcare and also just attitudes about the division of 236 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: labor in the phone. You know, a lot of that 237 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: can't be fixed by policy. It has to be fixed 238 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: by attitudes and behavior. Melinda Gates, as you know, said 239 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: women do an average at like seven more years of 240 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: child wearing and house work duty and just the business 241 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: of taking care of a home than men do. I 242 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: do think I don't know about Mark and Chelsea, but 243 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:11,120 Speaker 1: I do think that this generation of parents, now these 244 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: are obviously in a certain subset of privileged people, but 245 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: they're starting to understand that if it doesn't take a 246 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: village to raise the child a child, it definitely takes 247 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: a mother and a father. Well, we could, we don't 248 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 1: want to necessarily get into a traditional nuclear family, but 249 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: it can't all fall on the working woman to do 250 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:39,159 Speaker 1: the additional amount of work that it takes raising a child. Amen. Amen, 251 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: sister Katie, right, preach right. And I do think there 252 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 1: is um a recognition and even a little bit of 253 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 1: movement in the right direction when it comes to sharing 254 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: labor around the house and particularly with respect to child wearing. 255 00:17:58,240 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: But I want to go back to what you said 256 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: about whether or not this is going to make an impression, 257 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: and it really it's going to depend upon how people 258 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: talk about America's future, what kind of future we want 259 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: to have together. And I've become increasingly convinced over the 260 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 1: last year while I've had a lot of time on 261 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: my hands that we need we need a new American 262 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 1: story that includes everybody, um and gives you know, proper 263 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: respect to everybody's role in our society, like the essential workers. 264 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: What would we have done without people showing up to 265 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,959 Speaker 1: work in our hospitals, showing up to work in our 266 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: grocery stores and our pharmacies and all the other essential 267 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: services that they performed, and so it's incumbent upon all 268 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: of us, but particularly people not only with a voice, 269 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: for people who are in the public arena to be 270 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 1: talking about that new future we want. So if you 271 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 1: take paid family leave, I mean opposition to it has 272 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: always been, you know, that will undermine the family. Uh, 273 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 1: nobody's business from her business or business. And why should 274 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: people without children be taxed to help people with children? 275 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: I mean, all of these kinds of arguments. Well, I 276 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: think if you've got uh smart uh political leadership and 277 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,360 Speaker 1: public voices out there saying, I think we just now 278 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: learned how interconnected we really are, and it is about 279 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: helping everybody because it's in everybody's interests that we do. 280 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: So we're just going to have to tell a different 281 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 1: story because the old story is being just so distorted 282 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: and undermined, and for good reason in some areas, but 283 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: also for nefarious reasons by people who you know, want 284 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 1: to turn the clock back or people who want to 285 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 1: ignore everything that happened in the past. I mean, there's 286 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 1: a middle ground here about Yes, are we a perfect nation? 287 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: Absolutely not. Have we accomplished a lot that we should 288 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: be proud of and build on absolutely yes, So how 289 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 1: are we going to do that together and go forward 290 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: from there? I don't even necessarily want to go back 291 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: to two thousand sixteen, but just listening to you and 292 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: your common sense rhetoric and I don't even want to 293 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 1: call it rhetoric, but um, you know, views I think 294 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: I would be so bitter about two thousand sixteen, Hillary, 295 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: and so angry and look look what we got. Um, 296 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,439 Speaker 1: have you been able to kind of I know you 297 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: wrote a book, but but still do you do you 298 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: still kind of wake up and think what the hell happened? 299 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: How could this happen? I am still so pissed, I 300 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: because I don't know. I'm not a very generous person, 301 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 1: and I would be so bitter. I just would. Well, 302 00:20:55,800 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: I certainly have those moments when I just have to 303 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 1: either figuratively or literally smack my forehead, like you know, 304 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: how did this happen? Uh? And every day that goes 305 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: by and we learn more, and I think eventually, Katie, 306 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 1: a lot more will come out. I mean just in 307 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: this past week we learned what I assumed, and I 308 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: think most fair minded people did that. You know, the 309 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: Trump campaign was sharing their polling with the Russians. Now, 310 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: why would they do that. They were doing it because 311 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 1: they were targeting, and they were very um clearly targeting 312 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:37,439 Speaker 1: based on polling and other analytical information from Cambridge Analytica 313 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 1: and others too. Discourage voters, suppressed voters, change voters minds. 314 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: We know all of that, and we're gonna find out more. Um. 315 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 1: I try really hard not to go down that rabbit 316 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: hole because I did write a book, and obviously I've 317 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 1: moved on with my life except to try to understand 318 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: what are the lessons. And so when the campaign was 319 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 1: upon us starting in you know, nearly every Democrat running, 320 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 1: not all, but nearly every Democrat either came to see 321 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 1: me in person or called me to talk with me. 322 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: And you know, I tried to you know, alert them, 323 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: uh to the disproportionate impact that social media has in 324 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: favor of the right wing the Republican Party, their associates, 325 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: and how they had to be constantly monitoring that. It 326 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 1: kind of took us by surprise, to be honest. I mean, 327 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: you know, we learned in you know retrospect um all 328 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: of the lies and the crazy stories and everything that 329 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: we're going was going on, particularly on Facebook. So I 330 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: tried to alert all of the campaigns, and I had 331 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: some really good conversations with a number of the candidates. 332 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: I also tried to underscore how important it was, especially 333 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: when we had flipped governorships and secretaries of state in 334 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: the election to zero in on voter suppression. Uh. So 335 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 1: I've tried to put my own um learning uh and 336 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: my disappointment from what happened in to work on behalf 337 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: of causes and candidates that I, you know, support, because 338 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,239 Speaker 1: as I say, I don't even think we have a 339 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: full understanding yet. I want to see the unredacted Mueller report. 340 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: I want to see additional intelligence like what we learned 341 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: when the Russian agent Columnic was sanctioned just this past 342 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: week by the new Treasury Department about what the Russians 343 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: were doing. I want to keep digging into the connections 344 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:57,159 Speaker 1: with Cambridge Analytic Wiki leaks and others, because because people 345 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: listening to this right now are going to be like, 346 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: give it up, woman, No, it's all about the future. 347 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: It's all about the future because we are under constant 348 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: cyber attack. Our government and all of our agencies are, 349 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 1: our businesses are, individuals are, and our political system has 350 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 1: been uh. And you know, if people are willing to 351 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: give up our freedom and our sovereignty. Fine, you know, 352 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: it's okay if that's what they want. I think that 353 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: would be beyond dreadful mistake. However, do you think do 354 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,360 Speaker 1: you think Hillary that that Putin had something or has 355 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 1: something on President Trump? Do you think it was a 356 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: larger sort of desire to um up end confidence and 357 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: democracy or do you think it was a craven desire 358 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,479 Speaker 1: on the part of the Trump campaign to win at 359 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: any costs, or was it a confluence of all these things. 360 00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: I think it was a confluence. I think that uh, 361 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 1: you know, Putin and as I write in my book 362 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: about the election what happened, understood a few years ago 363 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: that he couldn't compete economically, he couldn't compete strategically, but 364 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: he could compete tactically with the United States, both in 365 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: its you know it's nearby regions like Ukraine, but also 366 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: in uh cyber warfare. And there were you know, there 367 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:34,159 Speaker 1: were documents written by h Russian military planners basically laying 368 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: this out and it was designed to upend confidence in 369 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: our democracy, to make us distrust each other, uh, to 370 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: inject even more divisiveness, and that that was a strategy 371 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: that was going to, you know, make the United States weaker. Uh, well, 372 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 1: it's worn't it has worked. And the idea that there are, 373 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 1: unfortunately people in public life, you know, leading with Trump 374 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: who for whatever reason, identify with Putin, identify with his 375 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: um approach to governing and his ruthlessness towards the press 376 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: toward political opposition, is very surprising to me, and especially 377 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: since most of it's coming from the Republican Party that 378 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: used to have a much more skeptical view about authoritarianism, 379 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: or a leader who believes he can accomplish more through 380 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: division than than uniting exactly. Yeah, well, that that is 381 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: his strategy obviously. Yeah, let's let's talk about um. Just 382 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 1: one thing that happened, which I actually I'm embarrassed to 383 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: say I hadn't really thought about this or observed it 384 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,479 Speaker 1: until I was preparing for this podcast. But it's something 385 00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: that you've talked about recently following the election, was the 386 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 1: so called erasure of Hillary Clinton. And I was shocked 387 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: that you were not on the list of honorees for 388 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: the two thousand seventeen Women's March protesting Trump, an event 389 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: that was in large part inspired by your presidential run 390 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: and loss. How do you explain that? Oh, I don't. 391 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,640 Speaker 1: I don't even try to explain that, UM, because you're 392 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,640 Speaker 1: right at it. The idea generated with people who had 393 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,159 Speaker 1: supported me. But it turned out fine. I mean, it 394 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 1: was the biggest global protest in history. And but it 395 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: must be galling on some level a little bit. I 396 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,719 Speaker 1: mean that that stuff doesn't bother me. I mean, you know, UM, 397 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: a lot of people, uh, a lot of people were 398 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 1: really upset by the election. They still are. I mean, 399 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 1: I'm constantly reading UM how people are still unresolved and 400 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: and mournful about it. UM. And you know, I think 401 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 1: that there is in human nature as well as body politics. 402 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: I mean, we don't want to look back. We want 403 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 1: to move forward, and so how do we best move forward? 404 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,199 Speaker 1: My only caveat to that is move forward learning the 405 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: lessons of the past, or we are doomed to repeat them. 406 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 1: And that's what I've tried to stay focused on. You 407 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 1: have been watching very carefully how Kamala Harris, Vice President 408 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: Harris is being covered, and you're seeing some of the 409 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 1: same sexist tropes that UH many people talked about in 410 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: UM two thousand eight and two thousand sixteen, and I'm curious, 411 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: how does the repetition of all these tropes ultimately frame 412 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: women as the other and and how can we make 413 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: people more aware of the you know, the the impact 414 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: of really years of cultural conditioning. I've studied this a lot, 415 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: implicit bias, how our brains are wired to make connections, 416 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: and how it's very hard to shake these perceptions with 417 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: all the incoming images and and uh, you know, messages 418 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: we received from the time, you know, from the time 419 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: we're infants. And um, do you still feel that that 420 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: coverage of of at this point, our first female vice 421 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: president is being affected by all of this? Still in 422 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: I think it is. But again, I really believe that, um, 423 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: the election of Vice President Harris was such a turning 424 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: point in our history. Um, there are those who are 425 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: still living in the past, who use stereotypical typecasting, who 426 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: are unable to really embrace this enormous political historic event. 427 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: But I think a lot of the uh negative coverage 428 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: now is more focused from the political partisan opposition. I 429 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: do think that the so called mainstream press and others 430 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: have learned some lessons from what I went through in 431 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: I think they're more aware and and there are more 432 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: people uh on like broadcast television, cable television, UM on 433 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: online who call others out. So I think a lot 434 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: of the opposition or the you know, the gendered uh 435 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: negative language that is being used towards the vice president 436 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: is wrapped up in partisan political ideological disagreements, which you know, 437 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: that's something that unfortunately we have to live with. That's 438 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,479 Speaker 1: part of the political system. But I think that at 439 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: least so far, and I'm thrilled about this, UM, she's 440 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: had a much fairer UM press coverage than might have 441 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: been the case for eight or twelve years ago. I 442 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: think some of that has to do with all the 443 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: factors you mentioned, also representation, and I think that's really 444 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: very much the result of the me too in times 445 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: of movement, and you and I have also witnessed a 446 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: seismic shift in how sexual harassment, sexism writ large. UM. 447 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: You know, I think all those things have been viewed 448 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: thanks to you know, those hashtags, and what have you 449 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: taken away from these movements? And and looking back, would 450 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: you have done anything differently? You know, I think it's 451 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: it's an incredibly significant evolution, and it's always difficult to 452 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: look back because you know, I think you and I 453 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 1: entered the workforce at such a different time, and the 454 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: idea that uh, you know, we we we're going to 455 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: be able to uh uh dismiss or object to every 456 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: you know, sex sexist, misogynistic comment that was made to us. 457 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: And you know, for me in a courtroom or a 458 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: lawyer setting for you in a you know, TV studio 459 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: or broadcast booth, whatever, it just was not on the radar. 460 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: I mean, it just you know, you sucked it up 461 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: and you kept going. You just had a view that 462 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: you were lucky to be in the position you were in, 463 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: and you were going to make the most of it. 464 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: And yeah, these guys were idiots and they but you 465 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: were not going to let it, you know, knock you 466 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:47,479 Speaker 1: off course. And and I think what's been really huge 467 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: change and all to the good, is that younger women, 468 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: you know, said to themselves, after watching the struggles of 469 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: their mothers or their grandmothers, or their ants, or they're 470 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: big sister sters. No, if more of us speak out, 471 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,239 Speaker 1: if we have a hashtag, if we call it for 472 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: what it is, there is strength in numbers. You don't 473 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,959 Speaker 1: have to deal with this on your own. Um. So, 474 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 1: I I think that It was a sea change, in 475 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: part because social media enabled it. You know, you couldn't 476 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: get on TV and say, you know, Joe Smith is 477 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: a total sexist pig, but you could get on social 478 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: media and you were free to say that and other 479 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: people could chime in. So the combination of a new 480 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: understanding of empowerment and agency combined with social media, um 481 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: made it all possible. And aren't aren't we you know, 482 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 1: aren't we lucky? I've learned a lot from my daughters 483 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: about this, and you know, and twenty nine, even writing 484 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: my book, you know, I talked about in the nineties, 485 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: in early two thousand's how you dealt with inappropriate behavior 486 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: by laughing it off, Like there were all these different 487 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: strategies you'd have to employ. And Ellie said to me, 488 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,720 Speaker 1: why why is it up to the woman to figure 489 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 1: out how to deal with this? Well, because often you 490 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: were the only woman, right, I mean, I remember when 491 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: I was working a hundred years ago for Jimmy Carter 492 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 1: in his presidential campaign. I was in Indiana working on 493 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: get out the vote, and the the groups that were 494 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,839 Speaker 1: going to help with get out the vote, uh, we're not, 495 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:40,879 Speaker 1: you know, doing what we wanted them to do. So 496 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: we we said we're going to have a meeting. And 497 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: I was the only woman at the table. They were probably, 498 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:52,279 Speaker 1: if I remember correctly, like nine men, and uh, you 499 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,879 Speaker 1: know I I was with my talking points and I said, look, 500 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: you know, we need we need measurements, We need to 501 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 1: know what you're doing. We need to you know, of 502 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: reporting an accountability. And literally a man reached across the 503 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 1: table grabbed me by my turtleneck and just twisted it 504 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 1: around and said, you don't tell us what to do 505 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: and then let it go. Now what was I you 506 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: know what I mean? I had a job to do, 507 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 1: try to get Jimmy Carter elected. That was those were 508 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: in the days when he thought he could carry Indiana. 509 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: Um and you know, none of these other men thought 510 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,240 Speaker 1: there was anything wrong with this guy threatening me and 511 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,320 Speaker 1: and telling me that. You know, I had no business 512 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: telling them, as a representative of the Carter Mondale campaign 513 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: what they were expected to do. Well, what was my remedy? 514 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 1: You know? I mean, so so I understand you know 515 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: your daughter's my daughter? Young women? Who are you know? Now? 516 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 1: We had no outlet. You know, if if if social 517 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 1: media had been around at that time, I could have 518 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: immediately gone on Twitter or Facebook or whatever and said, 519 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 1: there's a big problem in Indianapolis because the men there 520 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: don't want to listen to a woman tell them what 521 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:09,919 Speaker 1: they needed to do to get out the vote. But 522 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 1: that was it, you know, so circumstans know that everything 523 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: is kind of converged in a way that makes it 524 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,839 Speaker 1: possible for these other voices to be heard. We're going 525 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:24,879 Speaker 1: to take a short break, but when we come back, 526 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: we're talking about policing in America, something that seems to 527 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: be in the headlines every single day. What is the 528 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: solution that's right after this, I'd like to move on 529 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 1: to the killings of black men and women, recently a 530 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,240 Speaker 1: sixteen year old girl in Columbus, Ohio. I think these 531 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,799 Speaker 1: have brought the movement for racial justice in policing to 532 00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: a boiling point. It's a very explosive situation. And before 533 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,280 Speaker 1: we just sort of talk about solutions, because I want 534 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:08,399 Speaker 1: to focus on solutions, I just wanted to hear your 535 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: reaction when I'm sure you were glued to news about 536 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,800 Speaker 1: the Derek Chovin Shovin uh verdict, where you surprised, where 537 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: you relieved. To help take me back to that moment 538 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 1: and what you were feeling. I was relieved, Katie. You know, um, 539 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 1: right before the verdict, I was actually doing a zoom 540 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:35,759 Speaker 1: seminar with students at Georgetown University, and you know, we 541 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 1: were talking about all sorts of issues, and I said, 542 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 1: you know, within the hour, we're going to get the 543 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: verdict in the Derek Chouvin murder trial. And I said, 544 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 1: you know, I haven't practiced law in a long time, 545 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: but I watched you know, practically all of the trial, 546 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:59,280 Speaker 1: and the evidence is overwhelming and I can only hope 547 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: and pray that the jury will follow the evidence. But 548 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: I had my doubts. I was, you know, like a 549 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:10,760 Speaker 1: lot of other people, concerned that other factors would weigh 550 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:15,360 Speaker 1: more heavily. So when the verdict came in with guilty 551 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: uh convictions on all three counts, I was deeply relieved. 552 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 1: I thought that the Attorney General of Minnesota, Keith Ellison, 553 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:31,279 Speaker 1: the prosecutorial team that he put together presented one of 554 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: the best prosecutions I've ever seen, and particularly given the 555 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,839 Speaker 1: fact that the defendant had been a police officer at 556 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:44,920 Speaker 1: the time of the incident, the way that they artfully 557 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: said this is not about what the police did. This 558 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 1: is about what Derek Chauvin did. Uh. They really did 559 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 1: all they could think of to do to preempt all 560 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 1: of the doubts people have about well, what will it 561 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 1: mean for my my future safety and the safety of 562 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: my family and my community if we start telling police 563 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 1: officers that they can't do things and then you know, 564 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:16,759 Speaker 1: holding them criminally liable. So relief, huge relief, um was 565 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 1: my overwhelming response. And again I would just underscore how 566 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:29,319 Speaker 1: it was technology in the hands of ordinary citizens that 567 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 1: made that possible. If this had not been recorded, if 568 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: this had happened at night somewhere that there were no bystanders, 569 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 1: there would not have probably even been a prosecution. But 570 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:49,920 Speaker 1: forcing the world to watch that nearly ten minutes uh 571 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:57,120 Speaker 1: strangulation UH of Mr Floyd meant nobody could look away. 572 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,360 Speaker 1: Similarly with what just happened in columbu there's also video 573 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 1: that has made just the biggest difference imaginable in whether 574 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:13,319 Speaker 1: or not we can hold police accountable where they should be. Yes, 575 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 1: but there was video with Rodney King, and there was 576 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,720 Speaker 1: a very very different outcome. So I think the video, 577 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 1: I think you're totally right that that has been absolutely 578 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:29,439 Speaker 1: that that is the most irrefutable evidence. But it's been 579 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 1: more than that, hasn't it. It's been an awakening of 580 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,800 Speaker 1: this happening time and time and time again, so many 581 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:41,320 Speaker 1: times without the benefit of video tape to memorialize the incident. 582 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:47,760 Speaker 1: I think the Rodney King example is a very uh 583 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 1: useful example because the video was almost an isolated incident. Right. 584 00:40:55,560 --> 00:41:00,560 Speaker 1: What we have now is several years of video, and 585 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 1: we have too many cases that have gotten uh to 586 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,240 Speaker 1: the public attention, whereas before they used to be pretty 587 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:13,840 Speaker 1: much swept under the rug um. So I do think 588 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:18,759 Speaker 1: that it is fair to say that the number of 589 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 1: cases in quick succession that did have some public airing 590 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,239 Speaker 1: where people stepped forward and said I saw it, or here, 591 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 1: I even have a cell phone video of it, just 592 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 1: became an aggregate too much to ignore that the George 593 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:44,280 Speaker 1: Floyd case prompted such an outpouring because it was so egregious. 594 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 1: I mean, the look on Chauvin's face, you know, his 595 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,400 Speaker 1: hand in his pocket when the defense lawyer tried to 596 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,840 Speaker 1: imply that, you know, Chauvin was worried because of people 597 00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,720 Speaker 1: gathering on the sidewalk. I've never seen a worried person 598 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,880 Speaker 1: have their hands in their pocket. You know, there was 599 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 1: just so much about that that was emblematic of a 600 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,359 Speaker 1: behavior that had to be held accountable. So what can 601 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,880 Speaker 1: be done about policing in America? I mean, you we 602 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:21,319 Speaker 1: have Columbus, we have what happened in Minneapolis. Um, I'm 603 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,840 Speaker 1: just curious with their what I think thirty states have 604 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 1: passed a hundred and forty laws. Uh, what how do 605 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:33,000 Speaker 1: we solve this? I mean, yes, it's systemic racism, but 606 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: is it training? Is it not getting the right caliber 607 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:40,440 Speaker 1: of people? And I do believe that in some ways 608 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 1: police officers are I don't want to say victims, but 609 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,239 Speaker 1: are the result of systemic racism and the kind of 610 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,440 Speaker 1: condulstual cultural conditioning that we were talking about earlier. I mean, 611 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,960 Speaker 1: how do we fix this? I think defund the police 612 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,800 Speaker 1: from a branding perspective strikes fear in the hearts of people. 613 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,960 Speaker 1: So to you think we've got to come up with 614 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 1: some solutions, what are they? Well, that is the most 615 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:15,239 Speaker 1: important question, Katie and I honestly believe that despite the 616 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:25,439 Speaker 1: terrible pattern of police um killings of unarmed people, that 617 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:31,399 Speaker 1: we were beginning to have a sense of what could 618 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 1: be done in the Obama administration you know, after the 619 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:40,360 Speaker 1: killing of Michael Brown and Ferguson Missouri, UH, President Obama 620 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: put together a policing commission. It had advocates that had 621 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 1: experienced police officers, criminologists, others. They came up with a 622 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 1: set of recommendations UH, and the Justice Department and local 623 00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:59,760 Speaker 1: attorneys generals and others were I think taking that seriously 624 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:04,000 Speaker 1: becaus no one wants to paint every police officer as 625 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:08,839 Speaker 1: a bad person. That's just, you know, ridiculous. That's not 626 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,800 Speaker 1: the way that this needs to be addressed. There needs 627 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:17,399 Speaker 1: to be a focus on recruitment, promotion, training, accountability, all 628 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:21,959 Speaker 1: of that. UH. And there are good ideas out there, 629 00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:25,239 Speaker 1: but unfortunately, during the four years of the Trump administration, 630 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,920 Speaker 1: you had a Trump with a president, you had someone 631 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,400 Speaker 1: who basically told the police they could do anything they wanted, 632 00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:35,360 Speaker 1: you know, rough them up, you know, knock them around, 633 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:39,279 Speaker 1: you know, basically shut down the Justice Department as being 634 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,239 Speaker 1: the vehicle for trying to work with local departments to 635 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:47,000 Speaker 1: implement changes. So I saw where the new Attorney General, 636 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:51,280 Speaker 1: Merrick Garland UH is going to be looking at policing 637 00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,400 Speaker 1: in Minneapolis or in Minnesota because we had that recent 638 00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:58,000 Speaker 1: killing when the officer said she reached for taser, pulled 639 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:01,120 Speaker 1: out her gun, shot a guy for another or traffic stop, 640 00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,000 Speaker 1: which you know, is something that we got to take 641 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:08,520 Speaker 1: a hard look at. So I am actually hopeful that 642 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 1: with UH a new attorney general and administration who wants 643 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,120 Speaker 1: to work with the police. You know Joe Biden, who 644 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,280 Speaker 1: I've worked with for a very long time as first Lady, 645 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:21,960 Speaker 1: as a senator, as Secretary of State, when he was 646 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:27,080 Speaker 1: Vice president, he was a huge supporter of police. He 647 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,080 Speaker 1: used to get all kinds of awards from the Fraternal 648 00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 1: Order of Police. He used to go to every one 649 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,400 Speaker 1: of their you know, banquets and ceremonies. He has a 650 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:41,719 Speaker 1: deep understanding of the importance of good policing. But I 651 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:46,200 Speaker 1: think he also has a deep sense of responsibility to 652 00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:50,200 Speaker 1: try to fix what is clearly broken. So I'm actually 653 00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:54,040 Speaker 1: hopeful that that can happen. Do you think the Democratic 654 00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:59,239 Speaker 1: Party has become too woke for America or do you 655 00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:03,239 Speaker 1: think that's an okay thing? And in some ways are 656 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:09,759 Speaker 1: we hopelessly polarized? And should we stop worrying about that now? 657 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 1: I I don't want to stop worrying about polarization, but 658 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,840 Speaker 1: I want to put the responsibility where it mostly belongs, 659 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:21,799 Speaker 1: and that is on the Republican Party, because they have 660 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:29,920 Speaker 1: become almost a caricature of a far right, white supremacy 661 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:35,760 Speaker 1: UH driven organization that tries to upend our elections, which 662 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:40,960 Speaker 1: pledges fealty to an authoritarian want to be so. I 663 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,880 Speaker 1: think that if I'm looking at where we are politically 664 00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,279 Speaker 1: in our country right now, I am deeply worried that 665 00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,839 Speaker 1: we have one political party that has thrown its lot 666 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:57,480 Speaker 1: in with the worst conspiracy theorists and the most outlandish 667 00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:02,480 Speaker 1: lies about not just their opponents politically, but about so 668 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,480 Speaker 1: much that goes on in our country, and the Democratic 669 00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,040 Speaker 1: Party it still is a much bigger tent. You know, 670 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,640 Speaker 1: there are you know, people from you know, right to left, 671 00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:16,320 Speaker 1: within the center left of the has it gotten to 672 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:22,759 Speaker 1: progressive to appeal to sort of moderate Democrats who may 673 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,440 Speaker 1: not be ready for defunding the police. That's not a 674 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:30,479 Speaker 1: policy of the Democratic Party. Let me quickly point that out. 675 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:35,120 Speaker 1: Are there people who are either in or associated with 676 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:39,520 Speaker 1: the Democratic Party who UH have touted that. Yeah, but 677 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:44,600 Speaker 1: that is a small, absolutely minimalistic position. I think the 678 00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:48,880 Speaker 1: party has been kind of tarred by that phrase. I 679 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,080 Speaker 1: don't think I don't think so. I think that people 680 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:57,279 Speaker 1: who uh promote that are such a small part of 681 00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,880 Speaker 1: not just the Democratic Party but obviously of the society. 682 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:05,759 Speaker 1: That's not really indicative of where the you know, the 683 00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:09,200 Speaker 1: center of the Democratic Party is um And so I 684 00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:12,799 Speaker 1: think the Democrats have to be very clear about what 685 00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,920 Speaker 1: the bulk of the party stands for, what individual candidates 686 00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,040 Speaker 1: stand for. But I think the real danger to our 687 00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,520 Speaker 1: country right now is from the Republican Party, which has 688 00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:31,520 Speaker 1: refused uh to uh stand up to the craziness that 689 00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:36,919 Speaker 1: is uh promoted by Trump and his allies. And it's 690 00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 1: only getting worse, and it is aided and embedded by 691 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:44,000 Speaker 1: you know, a whole network, Fox Network and other you know, 692 00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:48,520 Speaker 1: you know baby networks that are coming to the forefront. 693 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,840 Speaker 1: You know, the Democrats have nothing like that. The ecosystem 694 00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:56,880 Speaker 1: that the Republicans have built, and that is self reinforcing. 695 00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:00,400 Speaker 1: UM is I think a very big dane you're and 696 00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:02,480 Speaker 1: it is the source of so much of the polarization. 697 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:06,600 Speaker 1: If you can't look at the facts about this election 698 00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:11,239 Speaker 1: and yes, disagree with the outcome, be sorry that your 699 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:13,719 Speaker 1: guy didn't win, but say, yeah, you know, we had 700 00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,040 Speaker 1: all these states and they all did these tests, and 701 00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:19,200 Speaker 1: they had to you know, certify the election, and we 702 00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:21,360 Speaker 1: had all these lawsuits. No, no, we still want to 703 00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:25,959 Speaker 1: overturn the election. I mean, that's tinpot dictatorship stuff. So 704 00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,520 Speaker 1: I'm much more worried about what's happened to the Republican 705 00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:34,080 Speaker 1: Party right now. Hillary Clinton, thanks so much for for 706 00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:37,440 Speaker 1: talking to us about all these issues. No one more 707 00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:41,440 Speaker 1: fascinating to discuss them with than you, and and we 708 00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:45,879 Speaker 1: will will continue the conversation Katie another time, either with 709 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:48,840 Speaker 1: or without a mike. Yes, we will. I look forward 710 00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,759 Speaker 1: to that. Thank you, Thanks so much, Hillary. Take care. 711 00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:59,400 Speaker 1: A gigantic thank you to former Secretary of State, presidential candidate, 712 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:04,439 Speaker 1: an all round baller badass, Hillary Clinton. You can catch 713 00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:07,240 Speaker 1: her podcast, you and me both on I Heart Radio 714 00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:15,760 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Next Question with Katie 715 00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,320 Speaker 1: Kurik is a production of I Heart Media and Katie 716 00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:23,040 Speaker 1: Currik Media. The executive producers Army Katie Curic and Courtney Litz. 717 00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:28,200 Speaker 1: The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements, 718 00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:32,560 Speaker 1: Adriana Fasio, and Emily Pinto. The show is edited and 719 00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:36,719 Speaker 1: mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information, about today's episode, 720 00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,399 Speaker 1: or to sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, 721 00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,399 Speaker 1: go to Katie currect dot com. You can also find 722 00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,360 Speaker 1: me at Katie Curic on Instagram and all my social 723 00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:49,400 Speaker 1: media channels. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit 724 00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:52,840 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you 725 00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:54,400 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows,