1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here this is it could happen 2 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: here the show about how things are falling apart and 3 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,319 Speaker 1: how maybe they could be made a bit better. Uh. 4 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: Right now, today we're doing an episode that is based 5 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: on a I don't know essay Garrison wrote and I 6 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: edited that we think you'll find interesting. So here it goes. 7 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: Green capitalism promises to deliver us all the same luxuries 8 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: and commodities that we enjoy today, but without doing net 9 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: harm to the biosphere. It's the message liberal elites try 10 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: to hold on when they make their case for being 11 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: better stewards of the environment than Republicans. This is not untrue, 12 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,160 Speaker 1: but it's also not true enough to stop your house 13 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: from flooding or your town from being incinerated in a 14 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: hell storm. When it comes to the methods green capitalism 15 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: posits by which we might reverse course without changing the 16 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: direction of the ship. One term you'll hear often is 17 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: energy efficiency. I want to read a statement I found 18 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: on white House dot gov, a fact sheet on the 19 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,559 Speaker 1: new US government commitment to reduce carbon emissions by fifty 20 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: to fifty I should note that's of the two thousand 21 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: five levels which were like high or something like that. Anyway, 22 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: here's the quote. The United States can create good paying 23 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: jobs and cut emissions and energy costs for families by 24 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: supporting efficiency upgrades and electrification and buildings. Through support for 25 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: job creating retrofit programs and sustainable affordable housing, wider use 26 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,199 Speaker 1: of heat pumps and induction stoves, adoption of modern energy 27 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: codes for new buildings. The United States will also invest 28 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: in new technologies to reduce emissions associated with construction, including 29 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: for high performance electrified buildings. Now, energy efficiency is in 30 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: fact a fine goal, and trying to reduce emissions is 31 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: broadly good. But the sad and kind of weird fact 32 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: is that increasing efficiency can sometimes mean increasing pollution through 33 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: what's known as the efficiency paradox, which is, of course 34 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: the title of the episod out because what you want 35 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: you want us to think of a second title, of 36 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: a separate title from that. Come on. So, first off, 37 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: what does energy efficiency mean? In general terms? Energy efficiency 38 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: refers to the amount of output that can be produced 39 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: with a given input of energy. Output being stuff that 40 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: energy is used to do, like like your house, or 41 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: wash your clothing, or power your wall mounted twenty volt 42 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 1: vibrator that requires as much electricity as an arc welder 43 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 1: in order to use. Energy savings are the reduction of 44 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: energy use without the loss of output produced. Improved energy 45 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: efficiency is expected to bring a number of benefits. First 46 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: of all, reducing energy usage should result in lower energy bills. Ideally, 47 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 1: reduced energy demand also means that energy imports can be decreased. 48 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: The International Energy Agency has estimated that strict efficiency policies 49 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: could allow the world to achieve more than forty of 50 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: the greenhouse gas emissions cuts needed to reach its climate 51 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: goals even without new technology, So there is considerable goal 52 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: room within the existing structures of global society to reduce 53 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:09,079 Speaker 1: emissions a lot without fancy space technology. But despite substantial 54 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: energy efficiency gains in the past few decades and decreases 55 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:14,799 Speaker 1: an output from places like the United States, we as 56 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 1: a species are using more energy than we have pretty 57 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: much forever, and emissions wildly surpass are or the Earth's 58 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: ability to handle them. Quoting from the Global Carbon Project quote, 59 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: global energy growth is outpacing decarbonization, despite positive progress in 60 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: twenty countries whose economies have grown over the last decade 61 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: and their emissions have declined. Growth and energy used from 62 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: fossil fuel sources is still outpacing the rise of low 63 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: carbon sources and activities. A robust global economy in sufficient 64 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: emission reductions and developed countries, and a need for increased 65 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: energy use in developing countries where per capita emissions remain 66 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: far below those of wealthier nations, will continue to put 67 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: upward pressure on CEO two emissions. They use the term 68 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: developing um and developed. We don't prefer those. But obviously 69 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: population growth contributes to all that, the growth and the 70 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: use of energy and the emissions of carbon um you know, 71 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: more people, more cars in the road, whatever, But it's 72 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: not really the primary factor that's adding onto the increase 73 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: in energy use for the human race. We'll talk about 74 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: that later though. For now, it's important to note that 75 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: the full potential energy savings, like in these kind of 76 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: hypotheticals about how much could be saved by improving efficiency, 77 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: are usually estimated by assuming that demand for energy services 78 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 1: will remain unchanged after energy efficiency gains. So when they 79 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: say that we can get the greenhouse emissions, gases gas 80 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: reductions we need by increasing efficiency, they're doing that assuming 81 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: that nothing will change about our overall energy use when 82 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,799 Speaker 1: we make things more efficient. But time and time again, 83 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: we see that once products are made more energy efficient, 84 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: people often end up consuming, producing, or even using more 85 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 1: of the thing, which makes the potential savings less meaningful 86 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 1: in a net result. Doesn't mean that it's not a 87 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: net good, but it's not as much as is often 88 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 1: calculated in these climate proposals. You can see this demonstrated 89 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 1: on the job. If you're in say food services, if 90 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: you happen to figure out how to do a task faster, 91 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: your boss probably isn't gonna let you use that extra 92 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: time to just chill out and do stuff on your phone. Um. 93 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 1: What is the phrase if you can lean, you can clean? Um? 94 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: So if you do something faster now, you're just expected 95 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 1: to do it faster all the time and output more 96 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 1: total work for your boss. This is the paradox of efficiency, 97 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: and it applies to energy as well. On a societal level. 98 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 1: Increased energy efficiency is a double edged sword, having the 99 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: potential to help cut emissions by a significant factor um 100 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: and having the potential to increase our total energy used 101 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 1: depending on what is made more efficient and how people 102 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: react to it. The idea that energy efficiency improvements can 103 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: actually lead to more overall energy use goes all the 104 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: way back to the start of the Industrial Revolution. In 105 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty five, economist William Stanley Jeevens published a book 106 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 1: called The Coal Question, in which he argued that innovation 107 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: and efficiency, particularly in the case of the coal powered 108 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 1: deam engine, would actually increase the overall consumption of coal, 109 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: rather than reducing it as it had been intended to do. 110 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: His prediction that efficiency improvements on steam engines would lead 111 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: to massive economic expansion accelerating coal consumption was very much correct. 112 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 1: This idea, then dubbed the Jeevens paradox, is still very 113 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: much worth considering when we discuss efficiency gains and policies 114 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: that are meant to reduce energy consumption and thereby fight 115 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: climate change. In modern terms, we describe the process by 116 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: which potential energy savings can be cut by greater use 117 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: of the energy efficient product as the rebound effect. There 118 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: are two different kinds of rebound effects observed, the most 119 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: obvious of which is dubbed the direct rebound effect. Direct 120 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 1: rebounds are observed when improvements and energy efficiency for a 121 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 1: particular energy service reduces the effective price of that service 122 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: and thus provides incentives to increase its demand. This leads 123 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: to the overall increased efficiency not equaling to a reduction 124 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: energy used as it as you might think. Direct rebounds 125 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: are observed when improvements and energy efficiency for a particular 126 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: energy service reduces the effective price of that enough that 127 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: it provides incentives to increase its demand. You may upgrade 128 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: to a more energy efficient appliance, but because of the 129 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: lower energy costs, you'll use the appliance more often and 130 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: thus use more total energy. Or in some cases, energy 131 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: efficiency gains are cut by the fact that more efficient 132 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: products allow people to use more of that product. For example, 133 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: someone may get a more efficient fridge that's also much larger, 134 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: and so even though it cools more efficiently, it's also 135 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: consuming overall more energy. Transportation has a lot of direct rebounds. 136 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: Despite massive fuel efficiency gains in recent years, transportation is 137 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: still responsible for twenty of global greenhouse gas emissions. Transportations 138 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: contribution to global warming is quickly increasing, with travel producing 139 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: greater and greater percentages of the planet's carbon footprint. Private 140 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: automobile tailpipes will drive this phenomenon for the foreseeable future, 141 00:07:57,920 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: as the number of active vehicles on the road is 142 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: projected to grow from seven million in the year two 143 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: thousand to two billion by so even though cars are 144 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: a lot more efficient, vastly more cars are being used. 145 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: And of course that's not entirely. It doesn't mean that, like, 146 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: more efficient cars cause people to buy more cars, but 147 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: it does make it more affordable for more people to 148 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: own cars and to drive them further, which drives up, 149 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: you know, fuel use, and drives up emissions. And you 150 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: see how the whole problem works, and it's not just cars. 151 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: When planes became more fuel efficient, ticket prices decrease and 152 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: more people started to travel by plane. As cost per 153 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: mile dropped, more miles were flown. The fact that airplanes 154 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 1: got more fuel efficient didn't reduce general pollution by the 155 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: air travel industry, quite to the contrary. In fact, the 156 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: decreased emissions led to an increase in air travel, which 157 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: shot a hell of a lot more poison out into 158 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: the sky and also gave us eat pray love. So 159 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: the other kinds of rebounds are indirect rebound effects. This 160 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: refers to when energy efficiency leads to monetary savings for 161 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: a producer or consumer who then can spend those extra 162 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: says things, on other carbon emitting goods and services that 163 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: otherwise they couldn't afford. For example, you buy a more 164 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: fuel efficient car, you save money on fuel, and you 165 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: wind up with extra funds in your bank account that 166 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 1: you can use on a vacation, and maybe you take 167 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: a flight on that vacation. So in the end, you 168 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: emit more c O two despite the fact that you're 169 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 1: emitting less c O two through your car. You've got 170 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 1: five bucks extra in the bank and you fly to 171 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: Mexico on it. Right, That's an indirect rebound effect. So 172 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: even if a product is replaced by a more efficient 173 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: one with similar respects, lower energy bills can mean that 174 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: more consumers will have more money to spend on goods 175 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: and services. This is generally seen as desirable from a 176 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: social and economic standpoint, and probably from an individual standpoint. 177 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: Having more money is always useful UM, but it involves 178 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: additional energy consumption means that you're consuming more, you're emitting 179 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: more UM, and so the savings and whatnot haven't actually 180 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: led to a savings in terms of, you know, from 181 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: an environmental perspective. An analysis of EU data shows that 182 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: out of twenty nine EU countries, eleven experienced rebound effects 183 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: of over fifty which means more than half of the 184 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: gains in energy efficiency were consumed by increases in energy use. 185 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: Six of those countries, including Denmark and Finland, reached over 186 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: rebound effects. This is called a backfire, and it means 187 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: that in those six countries, extra energy spending overtook all 188 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: of the efficiency gains achieved. Air Conditioning and heating are 189 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: large contributors to both direct and indirect rebounds. A rebound 190 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: effect as large as sixty percent has been shown in 191 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 1: increased improvements and efficiency in the residential heating sector, which 192 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: is something that the White House specifically quote about in 193 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:36,959 Speaker 1: their paper. In China, long term rebound effects ranging from 194 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: forty six percent to fifty six percent for residential electricity 195 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: consumption in Beijing have been estimated. All of this data 196 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: casts doubt on the wisdom of relying on energy efficiency 197 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: policies to reduce energy demand. I'm gonna quote here from 198 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: a report by the Copenhagen School of Energy Infrastructure. In 199 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: recent decades, large increases in demand for energy services have 200 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: globally driven energy consumption. As a counterbalance, energy efficiency has 201 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: become a key energy policy mechanism to tackle higher energy 202 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: consumption and emissions, and countries and regions have adopted different 203 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: targets and policies to achieve energy and environmental objectives. The 204 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: main goals of these policies are to minimize the dependence 205 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: on fossil fuels and mitigate local air pollution and g 206 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: h G emissions. This has been particularly relevant for the 207 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: energy intensive sectors. The development and deployment of more efficient 208 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: technologies are, along with more technology management, the main channel 209 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 1: to achieve these environmental and energy objectives. However, energy efficiency 210 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: improvements can lead to changes in the demand for energy services, 211 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,719 Speaker 1: changes that offset some of the expected energy savings. Consequently, 212 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: forecasts of energy consumption reductions may be overstated. As evidenced 213 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: by the empirical literature, rebound effects can be a non 214 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: negligible issue. Therefore, ignoring them can imply an overestimation of 215 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: the benefits coming from energy efficiency improvements. This can in 216 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: turn lead to decisions such as the overallocation of public 217 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,719 Speaker 1: funds to ineffective environmental and energy policies. Policy Makers need 218 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 1: to take rebound effects in to account for air quality, 219 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: energy security, and climate change policy reasons. A rebound effect 220 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: different from zero implies that the expected proportional reductions and 221 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: emissions from fuel efficiency improvements might not be achieved. Therefore, 222 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: the policy goals to reach specific levels of emissions through 223 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:29,319 Speaker 1: fuel efficiency enhancements may need to be adjusted accordingly. And again, 224 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: we have nothing against the idea of making more efficient devices. 225 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: The point is that energy efficiency can't be pursued in 226 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,719 Speaker 1: a vacuum. It has to coincide with changes to a 227 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: less extract of cancerous mindset regarding the Earth's resources and 228 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: carrying capacity. Just telling someone you can drive more for 229 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: less money now, or you can afford to keep your 230 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: TV on all the time doesn't really help anything. My 231 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: fear is that governments and corporations, the neoliberal leviathan as 232 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: we've come to call it on this show, will focus 233 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: almost overwhelmingly on energy efficiency to maintain economic growth and 234 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 1: obscure the overall lack of action on stopping carbon emissions. 235 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: Think Joe Biden doing donuts in an electric jeep through 236 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: such a lens as the Biden administration. Energy efficiency is 237 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: a foil to climate change is a charade being used 238 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: to keep relentless economic growth. Feud is a net good. 239 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 1: It plays into the myth that will be able to mitigate, 240 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: adapt and survive the effects of climate change with little 241 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: to no change to our current lifestyles. What we need 242 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: to do is decouple human well being from energy consumption 243 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,079 Speaker 1: and consumption in general to effectively combat climate change. This 244 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 1: needs to happen at such a scale that advocating for 245 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: individual changes in lifestyle will never be enough, but that 246 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: is still a significant part of the puzzle. The trick 247 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: comes in getting people to accept the fact that their 248 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: life will need to change without them telling them and 249 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: buying this product instead of that product. Is how you 250 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: do it. That said, populations of people can and do 251 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: change their behaviors in pretty profound ways. In nineteen fifty, 252 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: abortion was not at all an issue for the religious right. 253 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: Resistance to abortion might make some products and distrust you, 254 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: because that was seen as a Catholic concern. Now abortion 255 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: is the defining political issue of the ascendant right there 256 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: promised to destroy. It is the rock upon which their 257 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: titanic power is based. In a less calamitous sense, since 258 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: two thousand seven, we've gone from a time in which 259 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 1: smartphones were expensive trash for rich people to buy to today, 260 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: when they're expensive trash that every human being who can 261 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: afford to has to carry at all times because they're 262 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: so utterly integrated to our daily life. So yes, people 263 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: can change. A bigger challenge, though, will be to change 264 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: the mindset of industry, which is not entirely or even 265 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: often driven by consumer demand. As we've seen with the 266 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: release of papers proving Chevron and other oil and gas 267 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: companies knew about and deliberately hid research on climate change 268 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: for decades, Big capital will put its thumb on the 269 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: scale every step of the way. In other words, if 270 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: you come at the behemoth that is the integrated industrial economy, 271 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: you'd best come correct. How do we do that? Well, 272 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: if anybody really knew, they would have, you know, done 273 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: it by now. The human infast structure of extractive capitalism 274 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: is deep and vast and tightly woven into the structure 275 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: of every government with any real power. So with the 276 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: full understanding and admission that we aren't claiming to have 277 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: solutions to that problem, let's talk about something that will 278 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: at least be part of any real solution to the problem. 279 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: D growth. This is a term will explain in more 280 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: detail later, but we mean it's simply as a holistic 281 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: approach to encouraging reduction and energy consumption and global environmental justice. 282 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: A paper on the Jeevens paradox and the link between innovation, 283 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: efficiency and sustainability for the Frontiers and Energy Research concluded 284 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: quote the Jevens paradox and tales that sustainability problems cannot 285 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: be solved by technological innovations alone. They must be solved 286 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: through institutional and behavioral changes. While there are still differences 287 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: of opinion about the scale every bound effects and ongoing 288 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: arguments about the macro and micro and longer and shorter 289 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: term consequences of efficiency, our interest in this topic today 290 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: is driven by the goal of improving how we use 291 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: energy rather than totally were hauling or abandoning efficiency. One 292 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: example would be the current fight in Europe over smartphone chargers. 293 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: Most of the rest of the smartphone industry worldwide has 294 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: jumped onto USBC. Is the right kind of port for charging, 295 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: et cetera with your device. Before this point, those of 296 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: you have been using smartphones for a decade or we'll remember, 297 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: there were tons of different charges and thus a tons 298 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: of different waste. Every phone had to come with a 299 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: new charger. A lot of them wound up in the 300 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: trash that has been reduced by everyone jumping onto USBC. 301 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: But Apple continues to use their own special charger. And 302 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: now the EU was promising to make a law to 303 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: mandate USBC for charging new phones in an attempt to 304 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: reduce waste. This isn't again a bad thing, but if 305 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 1: someone's really concerned with waste among the smartphone industry, planned 306 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: obsolescence is the thing to go after. Now, Targeting planned obsolescence, 307 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: stopping it includes a number of things. And for one thing, 308 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: you have to fight for the right to repair devices, 309 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: which is something that a number of corporations, not just 310 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: in the smartphone industry, have lobbied to in some cases 311 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: make illegal. More than that, it's stopping somehow these companies 312 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: from making the conscious decision to brick old technology to 313 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: increase profits, and that aspect of it is the bigger 314 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 1: enemy than even the right to repair. As electronic device 315 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: has become common and more sectors of daily life via 316 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: the Internet of Things, the overall share of global energy 317 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,719 Speaker 1: use that goes to making new versions of old products 318 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: that could still be working but are designed to break 319 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: is is really quite depressing. For one example of how 320 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 1: large it must be, I haven't found any solid information 321 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: on the total size of this industry. Things that you 322 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: have to repeatedly re buy because they're meant to break. 323 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,719 Speaker 1: But the mobile phone industry and two thousand nineteen alone 324 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: was four point six percent of global GDP, So that's 325 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: close to five percent of global GDP just from making 326 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: phones that are designed to break so you have to 327 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: buy a new phone. This is an example of an 328 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: area in which people's perspectives have to be changed, and 329 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: I think actually that digital fatigue, the fact that we're 330 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 1: also fucking exhausted with these devices these days, may provide 331 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: somewhat of an inroad for convincing people that they need 332 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: to buy new gadgets less often. But because these gadgets 333 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: are so crucial to daily life, the industry actually also 334 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: has to be forced to change. And again, rite repair 335 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: is one part of this, but that doesn't stop Apple 336 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: from just deciding to throttle their old devices whenever they 337 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 1: need to add a new layer to the money pile. 338 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: Our overall point with all this is that solutions to 339 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: climate change have to be cultural and not just based 340 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: in some version of will invent a better version and 341 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 1: that will solve the problem. Hybrid gas burning cars and 342 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: standardized charging chords are nibbling around the edges of the problem. 343 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: Relying on technological advances pacifies us in the present, and 344 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: it reinforces the need for certain types of human material codependence. 345 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: And that kind of codependence leads to increased dependency and 346 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: more extraction. By no means am I trying to say 347 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 1: that innovation is bad. I love gadgets as much as 348 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: the next person. Innovation also has the capacity to heavily 349 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: decreased resource extraction. It just has to be tailored with 350 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,360 Speaker 1: something more than just will make this device more efficient 351 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,160 Speaker 1: so we can use it more or sell more of them. 352 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: The capitalist mode of mass resource extraction and grind for 353 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: efficiency are intertwined, and if we are to limit the 354 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: most catastrophic effects of climate change, we as a culture 355 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,479 Speaker 1: need to rethink how we view efficiency and energy use. 356 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,959 Speaker 1: For the past few hundred years, economic growth has been 357 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: the road that has led to our current ecological dilemma. 358 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: The fantasy of switching over to nuclear and renewable energy 359 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: with a perfectly efficient electric grid to just sidestep climate 360 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: collapse is it's a fantasy. We missed our chance to 361 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: do that. Even if we stop all carbon emissions right now, 362 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: all of them, the carbon already in the atmosphere would 363 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 1: push US past two degrees celsius of warming in about 364 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: fifty years. So what besides carbon capture can we do 365 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: about this? We as in both you, the regular listener, 366 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: and the goals with power and real influence. Well. The 367 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: two thousand eighteen International Panel and Climate Change Special WORKPORT 368 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 1: indicated that in the absence of speculative negative emissions technologies, 369 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: the only feasible way to remain within safe carbon budgets 370 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 1: was for high income nations to actively slow down the 371 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 1: pace of material production and consumption. D growth is the 372 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: planned reduction of energy use, corporate profits over production, and 373 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 1: excess consumption designed to bring the economy back into balance 374 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: with the living world in a way that reduces inequality 375 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,640 Speaker 1: while focusing on human and ecological well being. This isn't 376 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: just some sort of utopian Marxist thinking, and in fact, 377 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: a lot of Marxists have critiques of D growth, and 378 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: D growth could be applied to a number of different 379 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 1: economic and governmental systems. There are even some weirdo capitalist 380 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,919 Speaker 1: advocates of D growth. Discussion about solving climate change can 381 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 1: get into uncomfortable eugenics e territory if you aren't careful, 382 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: So I should emphasize here that d growth is primarily 383 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 1: about already wealthy countries limiting their economic growth. When aggregated 384 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: in terms of income, the richest half of the world, 385 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: high and upper middle income countries amid eighty six percent 386 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: of global CO two emissions. The bottom half, lower and 387 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: middle income countries amid only fourteen percent. With very few exceptions. 388 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,400 Speaker 1: The richer the nation is, the more it emits. It's 389 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 1: all part of the resource extraction infinite growth lie we 390 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: tell ourselves to keep going. Wealth is so much more 391 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 1: of a factor in emissions than population. North America is 392 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: home to only five percent of the world population, but 393 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: amids nearly eighteen percent of c O two. Asia is 394 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: home to sixty percent of the world's population, but amidst 395 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 1: just forty nine percent of c O two. Africa has 396 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 1: sixteen percent of the population but emits just four percent 397 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: of its c O two. This is reflected in per 398 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:33,160 Speaker 1: capita emissions. The average North American emits seventeen times more 399 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: than the average African. This inequality in global emissions lies 400 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: at the heart of why international agreement on climate change 401 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,400 Speaker 1: has and continues to be so contentious. The richest countries 402 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: in the world are home to half the world population 403 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: and amid eighty six percent of c O two. We 404 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,439 Speaker 1: want global incomes and living standards, especially for those of 405 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: the poorest half of the world, to rise. The only 406 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 1: way to do that while limiting climate change is to 407 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: shrink the emissions of high income countries. Even several billion 408 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 1: additional people in low incombinations would leave global emissions almost unchanged. 409 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: Three or four billion poor individuals would only account for 410 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: a few percent of global c O two. At the 411 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: other end of the distribution, however, adding only one billion 412 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: high income individuals to the wealthiest parts of the world 413 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 1: would increase global emissions by almost a third. A programmer 414 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: in the United States has a higher c O two 415 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 1: footprint than fifty farmers in Uganda. A decent chunk of 416 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: this is just due to meet consumption. Meet consumption per 417 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: capita in the richest fifteen countries is seven hundred fifty 418 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: percent higher than in the poorest twenty four countries. Lowering 419 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 1: the population of say Uruguay won't do much for emissions. 420 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: This is not the case when you talk about wealthy nations. 421 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 1: In fact, if you live and say the United States, 422 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 1: possibly the biggest thing you as an individual could do 423 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: to reduce emissions is to have fewer or no children. 424 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: It's estimated that dedicated recycling curves about point three metric 425 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: tons of CO two emissions per year, while having one 426 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: fewer child is equivalent to preventing over fifty eight tons 427 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: of two emissions a year. Better sex, said, and free 428 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 1: access to contraceptives could also go a shockingly long way 429 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: to curbing individual emission in wealthy countries, these numbers are 430 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: averaged across the whole nation, and just like the case 431 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: in less wealthy countries, the impact on emissions by having 432 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 1: one fewer kid will be far lesser if your middle 433 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: class or poor than it would be if your upper 434 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: middle class are rich. But of course, none of that 435 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: is going to be enough if industrial production keeps chugging 436 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: along and advising people not to have children, one of 437 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 1: the singular driving motivations for human beings across history isn't 438 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: exactly a vote getter of a proposition. D growth is critical, 439 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: but the question of how to get there is thorny 440 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: as hell. There are a few easy answers. Abolishing planned 441 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 1: obsolescence could be pretty easily pitched to the average person. 442 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 1: Cutting down on the number of people who have to 443 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: commute could have a significant impact on toxic car culture, 444 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: and again you can sell that to people. The obvious 445 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: solutions are good places to start, but they should be 446 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 1: seen as opening incisions, meant to clear the way to 447 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: make deeper, more expansive cuts and eventually hu away at 448 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: the camp swer we planted in the heart of our civilization. 449 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 1: It could happen here as a production of pool Zone Media. 450 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 451 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com, or check us out on 452 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 453 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could 454 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 1: Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com 455 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening.