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Speaker 2: I think envy is the thief of joy. Where we

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Speaker 2: run into problems is when we stop admiring those people

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Speaker 2: and we start wanting what they have or feeling like

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Speaker 2: I should have gotten what they've got. Organizational psychologists want

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Speaker 2: to bring in best selling author and Wharton's number one

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Speaker 2: professor Adam Grant. I think that's people saying I'm stuck.

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Speaker 2: I feel like my life isn't going anywhere. I feel

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Speaker 2: like I'm squandering my potential. That's a travesty. Growth is

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Speaker 2: part of how you feel like you're using your time well.

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Speaker 2: The person you're competing with is your past self, and

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Speaker 2: the bar you're raising is for your future self.

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Speaker 1: Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite

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Speaker 1: you to join this community to hear more interviews that

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Speaker 1: will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All

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Speaker 1: I want you to do is click on the subscribe button.

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Speaker 1: I love your support. It's incredible to see all your

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Speaker 1: comments and we're just getting started. I can't wait to

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Speaker 1: go on this journey with you. Thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for subscribing. It means the world to me.

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Speaker 2: The best sell I'm hot during Post the number one

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Speaker 2: health and wellness podcast and Purpose with Jay Shetty.

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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one

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Speaker 1: health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every

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Speaker 1: one of you that come back every week to listen, learn,

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Speaker 1: and grow. Now you know that this podcast is all

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Speaker 1: about how we can do better individually collectively grow with

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Speaker 1: new ideas, new insights, how we can develop new habits,

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Speaker 1: challenge our mindsets, and extend our capacity for goodness and

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Speaker 1: greatness in our lives. And today's guest is truly an

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Speaker 1: expert and someone who's deeply obsessed and studied about these

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Speaker 1: themes and subjects for a long long time, someone I

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Speaker 1: love having on the show. I'm so grateful that he's

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Speaker 1: returning on the show today. I'm talking about the one

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Speaker 1: and only Adam Grant, an organizational psychologist at Wharton, where

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Speaker 1: Adam has been the top rated professor for seven straight years.

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Speaker 1: Adam's books have sold millions of copies, and Adam's TED

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Speaker 1: talks have been viewed more than thirty million times, and

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Speaker 1: he hosts the hit podcast Rethinking. Adam's pioneering research on

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Speaker 1: motivation and meaning has enabled people to reach their aspirations

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Speaker 1: and exceed others expectations, and his new book is called

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Speaker 1: Hidden Potential, The Science of Achieving Greater Things. I highly

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Speaker 1: recommend you grab a copy of this book. This is

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Speaker 1: what we're diving into today. So if you love this conversation,

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Speaker 1: you'll love the book because it will go so much deeper.

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Speaker 1: Check it out. Adam, thank you so much for joining me.

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Speaker 2: Wow, thanks for that, Jay. I feel like I should

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Speaker 2: just leave now.

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Speaker 1: Leave now.

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Speaker 2: This is it going to peak right there.

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Speaker 1: Honestly, though I was saying it to you, it's so

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Speaker 1: nice to meet you in person because I've admired your work.

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Speaker 1: I've read your books, We've had an interview before. You've

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Speaker 1: been so collaborative on offline about different things that come up,

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Speaker 1: ideas projects, and I really appreciate that because you know,

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Speaker 1: it's we're all busy, we're all got a million things

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Speaker 1: going on, and you find a way to be personal

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Speaker 1: and present even in those So thank you so much,

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Speaker 1: I appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: I wish I could say it was on purpose, but

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Speaker 2: it's an accident.

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Speaker 1: And I want to I mentioned this offline. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: say it again, like your books called hidden potential. But

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Speaker 1: I remember on our last conversation, I was kind of saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'd love to one day, like you know,

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Speaker 1: study something deeply, potentially do a master's or a PhD,

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Speaker 1: or you know, I love the idea of obsessing over

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Speaker 1: something for a long period of time. And you kind of,

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Speaker 1: as you just said in your words, well, I'll let

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Speaker 1: you say it. You encouraged me, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: what if Adam believes I could do something like this,

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Speaker 1: maybe I can. So you were tapping into my hidden

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Speaker 1: potential years before this book came out.

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Speaker 2: It was only hidden to you. First of all, there's

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Speaker 2: no way that studying behavioral economics or neuroscience or psychology

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Speaker 2: or any of the topics that interest you is anywhere

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Speaker 2: near as hard as becoming a monk. That was just

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Speaker 2: the beginning. But I think you might have you suggested

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Speaker 2: that I was planning a seed, like the seed was

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Speaker 2: already growing, it just needed a little bit of extra

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Speaker 2: water in sunlight. But I'm still waiting.

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Speaker 1: You're waiting, you're waiting.

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Speaker 2: No, it'll happen.

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Speaker 1: It will happen, It will happen. I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about so you know. The subtitle of the book is

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Speaker 1: the Science of Achieving Greater Things, and it's all about

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Speaker 1: getting better at getting better? Why is getting better important?

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Speaker 1: Like why is growth important? And I know it sounds

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Speaker 1: it may sound like a stupid question, It may sound

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Speaker 1: like a silly thing to talk about, especially on a

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Speaker 1: show like this, but I find that people I talk

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Speaker 1: to sometimes idolize being average. They think it's good enough,

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Speaker 1: Good enough is good. I find that we are wired

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Speaker 1: often to want things to stay exactly the same. We

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Speaker 1: like how they are. Why should we get better? Why

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Speaker 1: should anything get better? We should be satisfied with what

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Speaker 1: we have, And often in the guise of contentment and peace,

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Speaker 1: there's a sense of lethargy and complacency that, well, we

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Speaker 1: don't need to grow, because you're just being greedy. So

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Speaker 1: I'm presenting a spectrum of ideas there. I'm happy for

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Speaker 1: you to dive into any of those. But why does

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Speaker 1: getting better and improving matter at all?

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Speaker 2: This is fascinating. Nobody's ever asked me that before. And frankly,

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Speaker 2: I think I've taken for granted that growth is just

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Speaker 2: intrinsically enjoyable and motivating. I mean, I think you made

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Speaker 2: a case that maybe some people are not motivated by growth.

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Speaker 2: I think that where I might push back on that

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Speaker 2: is to say, we live in a world that glorifies performance.

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Speaker 2: So you know, people feel like if they want to

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Speaker 2: be respected or celebrated, they need to win a metal,

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Speaker 2: they need to earn a trophy, they need to get

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Speaker 2: an A plus. And I think what we've lost sight

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Speaker 2: of is that what people actually enjoy is a sense

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Speaker 2: of progress, feeling like they have forward momentum. When I

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Speaker 2: think about what does it look like to not grow,

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Speaker 2: I don't think for most people that's good enough. I

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Speaker 2: think that's stagnation. I think that's people's saying I'm stuck.

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Speaker 2: I feel like my life isn't going anywhere. I feel

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Speaker 2: like I'm squandering my potential, and I just I think

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Speaker 2: that's a travesty. And so I think growth is part

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Speaker 2: of how you feel like you're using your time.

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Speaker 1: Well, absolutely, I completely agree with you, and I'm glad

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Speaker 1: no one's ever asked you that before, because I think

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Speaker 1: I'm like that too. I kind of take for granted

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Speaker 1: that I love growth and I love the idea of

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Speaker 1: being better and improving. And I can't remember. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's been said a million times. It's like an age

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Speaker 1: old quote, but it goes you know, if you're not growing,

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Speaker 1: you're dying. And I think that's the point that we

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Speaker 1: are either moving forward or we're moving backward. We're either

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Speaker 1: getting faster and smarter or we're getting slower and not smarter.

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Speaker 1: And I think when you recognize that idea that there

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Speaker 1: is no staying the same, there is no we're just

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Speaker 1: going to stay on this place and platform forever. You

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Speaker 1: start recognizing, oh, I have to move forward and the

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Speaker 1: pace at which I move. How have you guided people

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Speaker 1: with that? I find like often we compare our pace

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Speaker 1: of growth and our pace of becoming better. And that's

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Speaker 1: the hardest one because you're like, well, they got that

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Speaker 1: body in three months, or you know, you've been the

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Speaker 1: top grade professor for seven years, like I've only won

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Speaker 1: that once, or whatever it may be. Pace of growth?

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Speaker 1: How have you thought about pace of growth in your

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Speaker 1: work for a long time?

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Speaker 2: I believe the saying the mantra that comparison is the

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Speaker 2: thief of joy. I don't believe it anymore. I think

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Speaker 2: envy is the thief of joy. I think social comparison

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Speaker 2: is invaluable. I think we have to look to other

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Speaker 2: people for inspiration. I think we look to other people

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Speaker 2: for learning, you know, not just what am I capable of,

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Speaker 2: but also how do I get there. I think where

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Speaker 2: we run into problems is when we stop admiring those

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Speaker 2: people and we start wanting what they have or feeling

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Speaker 2: like I should have gotten what they got. And I

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Speaker 2: think there what's probably helpful is to make a different

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Speaker 2: set of comparisons. You know. Part of what you could

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Speaker 2: do is not think so much about pace as starting.

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Speaker 2: Maybe focus more on starting points. So maybe somebody who's

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Speaker 2: growing faster than you actually just art with more advantages

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Speaker 2: than you did and you've traveled a greater distance. I

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Speaker 2: don't think we pay enough attention to that would be

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Speaker 2: one thought. I think, obviously comparing to ourselves is helpful too,

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Speaker 2: And I think that you know so often when it

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Speaker 2: comes to benchmarking progress, I want to tell people, Okay,

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Speaker 2: the person you're competing with is your past self, and

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Speaker 2: the bar you're raising is for your future self. And

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Speaker 2: if you can focus on that, it's a little bit

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Speaker 2: easier to realize. All right, Yeah, everybody has a different

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Speaker 2: starting point, everybody has a different pace. But if I

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Speaker 2: could tell actually, let me say this. I think so

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Speaker 2: many people let their expectations rise with their progress, and

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Speaker 2: so you set a goal today, you achieve it in

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Speaker 2: six months, and then by the time it happens, it's

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Speaker 2: almost a relief. I didn't blow it. Definitely, there's no joy,

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Speaker 2: there's no sense of meaning and purpose. You sort of

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Speaker 2: expected it and you would have been disappointed if it

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Speaker 2: didn't happen. I think the way you have that is

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Speaker 2: you get in touch with your past self and you say,

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Speaker 2: if you know, if six months ago me or five

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Speaker 2: years ago me knew where I would land now, how

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Speaker 2: proud would I have been? How excited would I have been?

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Speaker 2: And if you keep that past self in mind, it's

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Speaker 2: much easier to appreciate the I guess the strides that

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Speaker 2: you're making.

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Speaker 1: I love that distinction you made as well, between how

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Speaker 1: comparison versus envy is the thief of joy. I think

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Speaker 1: it's so subtle, but it's so nuanced and so powerful

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Speaker 1: because you're so right that I always think of it

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Speaker 1: in the same way that you either study someone or

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Speaker 1: you envy them, And often the deeper you study someone,

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Speaker 1: the less you'll envy them because you actually realize how

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Speaker 1: far they've come and what they had to get through

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Speaker 1: and challenges they had, and you start getting the energy

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Speaker 1: from that study to say, oh, maybe I have that

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Speaker 1: within me too, and maybe I can find that within

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Speaker 1: me too, because I have challenges I think for me.

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Speaker 2: A really concrete example of that was I I was

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Speaker 2: terrified of public speaking when I decided to become a professor,

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Speaker 2: like maybe it was the wrong profession, like what are

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Speaker 2: you doing here? But I remember even being a student

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Speaker 2: and thinking about raising my hand in college and I

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Speaker 2: would start to physically shake, and by the time I

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Speaker 2: got called on sometimes I would like I would forget

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Speaker 2: what I was going to say, or I'd second guess it,

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Speaker 2: or I'd stumble and stammer my way through it. And

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Speaker 2: so the idea that I was now going to stand

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Speaker 2: in front of a whole classroom or on a big

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Speaker 2: stage was extremely a daunting. So what did I do.

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Speaker 2: I went to speakers that I really admired and started

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Speaker 2: studying them, thinking this is going to help me. And

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Speaker 2: the first one I picked was MLK great, big, really yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean, what a great way to get tomorrow les.

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Speaker 2: So I watched his dream speech. I tried to take

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Speaker 2: notes on, you know, on things I could learn from him,

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Speaker 2: you know, I wanted to know, well, how did he

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Speaker 2: get there? And so I start reading about it. He's

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Speaker 2: thirty four years old. When he gives that speech, I

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Speaker 2: might as well quit. I cannot believe the greatest speech

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Speaker 2: in American history, you know, done by somebody who's you know,

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Speaker 2: not even close to his prime. And I think if

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Speaker 2: i'd stop there, I would have quit, and it would

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Speaker 2: have been easy to walk away from MLK as just

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Speaker 2: an impossible role model. And let's be clear, he is

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Speaker 2: an impossible role model. I will never I could work

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Speaker 2: on public speaking for an infinite number of years, every

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Speaker 2: minute of every day, and never come close to that.

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Speaker 2: What was helpful, though, was then sort of rewinding and

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Speaker 2: realizing we usually see our role models at their peak,

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Speaker 2: and we don't have the starting point, we don't have

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Speaker 2: the distance they've traveled. So how did MLK get here?

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Speaker 2: And turns out he started entering public speaking competitions when

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Speaker 2: he was fifteen years old. That was two decades of practice.

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Speaker 2: The year he did his dream speech, he gave over

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Speaker 2: three hundred and fifty talks, and so you know, if

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Speaker 2: you think about the cumulative progress that was made, that's

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Speaker 2: multiple lifetimes, you know, of effort. So I think that's

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Speaker 2: that's the kind of sort of analysis that we need

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Speaker 2: to do, and I don't think most of us do that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely absolutely. I can't believe. I can't remember exactly

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Speaker 1: what it was I left to find it, but it

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Speaker 1: was I think it was Usain Bolt who said something

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Speaker 1: like I've worked for X amount of hours to run

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Speaker 1: ten seconds or something like that, right, like the idea

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Speaker 1: of he's practiced for all these hours or months or

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Speaker 1: years to run something and however long he did it.

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Speaker 1: And I forgot the exact number. But it's so interesting

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Speaker 1: what you're saying, and that backstory of that journey, that growth,

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Speaker 1: the skills development, the hours, the struggle, three hundred that

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Speaker 1: year alone is pretty you know, it's Yeah, that's insane,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's fascinating you talk about this. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I want to. I want to read from the book

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Speaker 1: a bit if you don't mind. So there are a

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Speaker 1: couple of things that I picked out. So this is

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Speaker 1: page twenty six for anyone who's listening or watching right now,

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Speaker 1: page twenty six of Hidden Potential. So character cannot be

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Speaker 1: developed in ease and quiet. Only through experiences of trial

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Speaker 1: and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired,

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Speaker 1: and success achieved, according Helen Keller, and then you go

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Speaker 1: on to say that summoning the nerve to face discomfort

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Speaker 1: is a character skill. The way you were writing this

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Speaker 1: book was so empowering because it was almost like you

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Speaker 1: were pulling from you know, I know, of course everything's

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Speaker 1: highly researched, everything's back toward science, but you were kind

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Speaker 1: of pulling from a bit of a mind Luther King's

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Speaker 1: face there, like the language in there of like summoning

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Speaker 1: the nerve to face discomfort is a character's skill. And

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Speaker 1: so you're actually saying what we just talked about with them, Okay,

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Speaker 1: that doing hard things, doing uncomfortable things, doing difficult things

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Speaker 1: is actually where so much of this ability fit impotential

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Speaker 1: comes from. But all of us shy away from it.

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Speaker 1: You know, all of us don't want to do it.

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Speaker 1: We're scared of it. You becoming a professor, that's scary.

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Speaker 1: If you don't like public speaking. We avoid discomfort, we

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Speaker 1: avoid awkwardness, we avoid challenges. How do we summon the

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Speaker 1: nerve to face discomfort?

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Speaker 2: Well, clearly what I did was I started by thinking, Okay,

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Speaker 2: writing this book is going to be uncomfortable. There are

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Speaker 2: going to be a lot of times when I'm going

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Speaker 2: to get stuck, when I'm going to feel like this

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Speaker 2: chapter is not working, and then my writing is not working,

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Speaker 2: and then I'm not capable of being a writer. Why

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Speaker 2: did I ever think I could become a writer? And

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Speaker 2: then that just spirals out of control. And then the

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Speaker 2: antidote to that is to think, you know what, Jay

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Speaker 2: Shetty needs to be empowered. And also, I love this

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Speaker 2: image of you getting empowerment.

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Speaker 1: I do get empowered.

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Speaker 2: I would never think of you as somebody who is

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Speaker 2: in need of that. You're out empowering lots of other

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Speaker 2: people always in need. I guess for me. One of

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Speaker 2: the things I learned from the research that I didn't

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Speaker 2: know before. I think I always understood intuitively and the

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Speaker 2: idea that discomfort is key to growth. What I didn't

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Speaker 2: understand was that actively seeking discomfort and even amplifying it

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Speaker 2: was one of the ways that you could move toward

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Speaker 2: your idea of progress. I kind of saw it as

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Speaker 2: a necessary evil, something that happens, you know, when you're

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Speaker 2: learning and you're struggling, and you're tinkering with new skills

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Speaker 2: and with the I think what the evidence shows is

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Speaker 2: that people who are actually given the goal to intentionally

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Speaker 2: feel uncomfortable. This is done in some cases asking people

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Speaker 2: to go on stage to do improv comedy and literally

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Speaker 2: feel awkward on purpose. They end up growing more from

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Speaker 2: that experience because they put themselves in situations that challenged them.

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Speaker 2: And so I think that's what I had to do

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Speaker 2: with public speaking. When I was starting to teach, is

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Speaker 2: therapists talk about exposure therapy and they often recommend systematic

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Speaker 2: desensitization to say, all right, let's start, you know, little seminar,

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Speaker 2: and then you get to know a group of students well,

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Speaker 2: and then you can kind of build from there. I

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Speaker 2: didn't have time for that, so I went to the

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Speaker 2: opposite extreme of flooding and said, all right, I'm just

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Speaker 2: going to volunteer to give guest lectures in front of

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Speaker 2: huge classrooms of hundreds of students who I've never met before.

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Speaker 2: For my friends classes. I don't know why they let

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Speaker 2: me in. I don't why I volunteered. Yeah, they were

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Speaker 2: overly good friends. Maybe they were sacrificing the whole class

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Speaker 2: for my growth, but extremely uncomfortable for me. And I remember,

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Speaker 2: you know, just walking in and feeling like I do

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Speaker 2: not belong here, I'm not qualified. It was a massive

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Speaker 2: case of imposter syndrome. But I think one of the

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Speaker 2: things that happened when I put myself in that uncomfortable

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Speaker 2: situation is I realized it's not really going to go

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Speaker 2: worse than it did today. And reading through the you know,

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Speaker 2: the comments, there were lots of suggestions for improvement and

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Speaker 2: lots of criticisms, but there were also you know, little

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Speaker 2: compliments about things people liked. I was like, okay, I

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Speaker 2: can build on that. I can work on this. And

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Speaker 2: I think, you know, just coming in with the goal, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I should put myself in a deliberately uncomfortable situation. It

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Speaker 2: opened me to a much steeper learning curve than if

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Speaker 2: i'd done the kind of let me dip my toe

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Speaker 2: in the shallow end and then sort of take off

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Speaker 2: the floaties and learn to swim one step at a time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I feel it's really interesting, right, do you

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Speaker 1: think there are those two approaches? Like do you think

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Speaker 1: from the research you've done and even your own personal experience,

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Speaker 1: do you feel like it is either raw like sometimes

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Speaker 1: you just jump in the deep end and sometimes you

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Speaker 1: should kind of dip your toe in and then walk in.

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Speaker 1: Or do you think it's it's either raw like or

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Speaker 1: is wisdom knowing which one to try?

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Speaker 2: When that's where I was, I was going to land.

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Speaker 2: I haven't seen a good comparison to the two and

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Speaker 2: when you should do each, But that's that's my intuition

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Speaker 2: as well as I think there's a time and a

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Speaker 2: place for both approaches, and probably most of the time

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Speaker 2: we want to be somewhere in the middle. But to

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Speaker 2: the point that you made earlier, I think most of

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Speaker 2: us aer too far in the side of avoiding discomfort,

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Speaker 2: and so we make these very small incremental steps, and

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Speaker 2: one it feels like we're not making progress, which is frustrating,

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Speaker 2: and then two we often then don't take enough risks

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Speaker 2: or try enough experiments to really stretch ourselves and move

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Speaker 2: up to the next level.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, one of the things I find that I

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Speaker 1: always do if I get curious about something, it could

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Speaker 1: be a sport, it could be a subject, it could

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Speaker 1: be a topic, whatever it may be. I'll kind of

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Speaker 1: cancel everything on the weekend and just obsess about it

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Speaker 1: for a weekend. Oh, in because it gives me a

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Speaker 1: sense of momentum or growth or a sense of yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's not my thing, and I can very quickly decide

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Speaker 1: whether to invest more time in it. Whereas if I

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Speaker 1: was to have booked a six week course or a

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Speaker 1: program on something, I may find by week three that

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Speaker 1: this isn't something I want to study for six weeks,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to I could have figured that out in

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Speaker 1: twenty four hours if I just really obsessed about it,

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Speaker 1: or if I'll play a sport and I'm thinking, oh,

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Speaker 1: I like this sport, should I play it more? Let

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Speaker 1: me play it for a whole weekend. Every hour of

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Speaker 1: that I'm awake and see whether it fulfills me or

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Speaker 1: whether it's draining and tiring. And I feel like that's

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Speaker 1: kind of what you're saying works is a better experiment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that kind of immersion is a really

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Speaker 2: efficient way to figure out is this an area that

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Speaker 2: I wanted to try to keep growing in. I think

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Speaker 2: the one thing i'd want to be careful about there

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Speaker 2: is There's there's some evidence to suggest that oftentimes we

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Speaker 2: only like things when we become good at them.

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Speaker 1: That's true.

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Speaker 2: If you spend a weekend on a skill that you're

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Speaker 2: terrible at, you might quit it prematurely because you just

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Speaker 2: haven't built up enough competence to start. I'm just gonna

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Speaker 2: say that, like the day I spent I spent swinging

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Speaker 2: a golf club, I've never felt so incapable in my life.

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Speaker 1: Same.

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Speaker 2: Also, golf is not a real sport, so I had

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Speaker 2: no problems.

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Speaker 1: Watching explain that explain.

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Speaker 2: I think I'll offend too many people.

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Speaker 1: I think so true.

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Speaker 2: No, but I think sometimes you do have to say,

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Speaker 2: all right, this could take me a couple of weeks

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Speaker 2: or couple months where you know, I build enough competence

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Speaker 2: to really experience the joy of it, like I've seen

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Speaker 2: this with I actually went through this with tennis. I

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Speaker 2: think I took tennis lessons when you know, when I

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Speaker 2: was four or five and I really disliked it, and

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Speaker 2: you know, ended up convincing my mom that I should quit.

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Speaker 2: And then when I picked it up again around eleven

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Speaker 2: or twelve, I had better hand eye coordination. I'd played

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Speaker 2: a bunch of ping pong, and now it was decent

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Speaker 2: enough at a racket sport. The tennis was actually fine,

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Speaker 2: And I think that's probably relevant to many skills.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely so. People always ask me, and I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you get asked this question a million times, of course

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Speaker 1: you do. You have your own book club too, which

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Speaker 1: you've been kindly featured me in the past, and people

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Speaker 1: who's asked me what should I read? And my number

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Speaker 1: one response to that is, well, what are you struggling with?

434
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:45,680
Speaker 1: Because I read for what I'm struggling with. That's how

435
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:47,800
Speaker 1: I choose. I always say to people, you don't go

436
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,960
Speaker 1: to the grocery store because your refrigerator is full of milk.

437
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,120
Speaker 1: You go when you're out of milk, or you're out

438
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:54,879
Speaker 1: of cheese, or you're out of bread, and you go

439
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,719
Speaker 1: and stock up. And so I'll often do an audit

440
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,560
Speaker 1: of my internal unit and go, well, what am I

441
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,000
Speaker 1: feeling like I don't have? And I've talked about how

442
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:04,880
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago I was building my team

443
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,840
Speaker 1: and I realized that being a leader and a recruiter

444
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:12,919
Speaker 1: of very different skills and recruitment wasn't a strength that

445
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,720
Speaker 1: I possessed. And I almost assumed that because I was

446
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,280
Speaker 1: good at certain things that I should be good at recruiting,

447
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,679
Speaker 1: and I wasn't. And I studied Daniel Coyle's book The

448
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,520
Speaker 1: Culture Code, which I love. Yeah, it's fantastic. And I

449
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,560
Speaker 1: interviewed him on the show too, and looked at his

450
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,680
Speaker 1: playbook and everything else, and that one book in and

451
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,639
Speaker 1: of itself made me better at recruitment. And so I

452
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:34,160
Speaker 1: always look at it that way. But how do people

453
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:35,920
Speaker 1: figure out what they're struggling with or what they're not

454
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 1: good at what they need to get better at. It's

455
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,320
Speaker 1: probably the right way to put it, because we have

456
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,080
Speaker 1: so many things we're not good at. Yeah, what do

457
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 1: we know what we need to get better at?

458
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:43,840
Speaker 2: This should have been a chapter and hit him potential.

459
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:46,639
Speaker 2: Where were you, Jay Shenny Well? I was read in

460
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,160
Speaker 2: this book that would have been really helpful. Maybe it'll

461
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 2: go in the paperback. I think my first thought is

462
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,160
Speaker 2: I always want to look to my achilles heel. What's

463
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 2: the one thing that's holding me back from a goal

464
00:21:57,880 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 2: that I care about or a value that I'm trying

465
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,640
Speaker 2: to to And then the other is, what's an area

466
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,920
Speaker 2: of passion or curiosity that I'm excited to spend more

467
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 2: time investing in And sometimes that's for me because I'm

468
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 2: excited about it. Other times it's because I want to

469
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,160
Speaker 2: help somebody else. And I think those are reasonable questions

470
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 2: to ask. I think where a lot of people struggle

471
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,160
Speaker 2: is they know the domain already, right, so they've decided

472
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 2: I want to be a better entrepreneur, or I want

473
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 2: to be a better artist, or I'm interested in improving

474
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 2: my coding skills, right, and they've kind of already figured

475
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 2: out what part of life they're trying to improve that,

476
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,400
Speaker 2: but then they don't know what to focus on from there.

477
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 2: I think the mistake that a lot of us make

478
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,280
Speaker 2: is we end up asking the people around us that

479
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 2: we trust for feedback, which is a perfectly reasonable thing

480
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 2: to do, except when you ask for feedback, you get

481
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 2: a lot of cheerleaders and critics. The cheerleaders are basically

482
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 2: applauding your best self, and the critics are attacking your

483
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 2: worst self, and the critics leave you often demoralized, and

484
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,719
Speaker 2: the cheerleaders can make you complacent what you want As

485
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 2: a coach, A good coach is somebody who sees your

486
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,640
Speaker 2: potential and then helps you become a better version of yourself.

487
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 2: And so one of the things I learned through doing

488
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,399
Speaker 2: research for the book is that instead of asking for feedback,

489
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,639
Speaker 2: it's often better to seek advice. So feedback leads people

490
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 2: to think about what you did right or wrong yesterday.

491
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 2: Advice helps people focus on what you can do better tomorrow.

492
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 2: So the way I would like to I guess that

493
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:21,880
Speaker 2: I apply this personally is when I'm trying to figure

494
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 2: out where I need to grow. Every time I get

495
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 2: off stage, for example, or every time I finish a

496
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 2: podcast interview, I will ask the audience or the host,

497
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,360
Speaker 2: what's the one thing I can do better? Wow, which

498
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 2: is enormously helpful because they start to give concrete suggestions,

499
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,119
Speaker 2: But I'm not immediately going to focus on the first

500
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:40,920
Speaker 2: thing that I hear. What I do is I ask

501
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 2: a bunch of different people, and then I look for

502
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 2: the patterns. And I think that what too many people

503
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 2: do is even if they get to the point of

504
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,399
Speaker 2: asking for advice rather than feedback, they start to hear

505
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 2: all these things they need to work on. They're like, WHOA,

506
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,680
Speaker 2: this is overload. It's too much. I can't handle anymore.

507
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 2: I can probably only improve one or two things at

508
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 2: a time. What I would say to those people is,

509
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 2: I feel a little bit overwhelmed by the number of

510
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 2: suggestions are getting. You should actually seek more of them

511
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 2: because that will help you find the signal in the noise.

512
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,360
Speaker 2: That will help you sort of figure out what one

513
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 2: person's idiosyncratic taste and what is a bunch of people's

514
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,919
Speaker 2: you know, quality input. So I guess that's my favorite

515
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 2: way to figure out where you need to grow. Ask

516
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 2: a bunch of people for advice and then focus on

517
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 2: the common themes.

518
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, the patterns. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

519
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 1: I'm going to start doing that. I'm going to try

520
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: that out, Actually try it.

521
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 2: You're on risk.

522
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not practiced in that way. And I like

523
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 1: that again, distinction between advice and feedback. And you're so right.

524
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:38,879
Speaker 1: If someone asks me for feedback, your spot on my

525
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 1: mind goes into right and wrong and you know, weaknesses

526
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 1: and strengths as opposed to reflecting on hey this could

527
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 1: work really well, or I love this style you have

528
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: and it could work, you know. I think that's such

529
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 1: a great way to think about it. And it's hard too,

530
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 1: because we do base so much of where we want

531
00:24:57,920 --> 00:24:59,959
Speaker 1: to grow on what other people think we need to grow,

532
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 1: and I wonder how we can get better at sitting

533
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 1: with ourselves and reflecting on our days. I always loved

534
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 1: that statement from Steve Jobs where he said that every

535
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 1: couple of days I would look in the mirror and

536
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: ask myself or reflect on if this was the life

537
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: I wanted to live? Am I doing with my day

538
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: what I'd want to do? And if it wasn't, then

539
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 1: I knew I'd needed to make a change. And that

540
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 1: self evaluation, I think is such an important need because

541
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 1: at the same time as listening to others, you need both.

542
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 1: It's not an either or how have you done the

543
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: self evaluation part as well, from going to someone who

544
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 1: was scared of giving talks to being one of Ted's

545
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: most prolific popular speakers of all time to obviously now

546
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 1: you know traveling, book tours, events, everything else. How do

547
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 1: you self evaluate now as you were then?

548
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 2: That's definitely been an evolution over the years. I think

549
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,479
Speaker 2: probably the most helpful thing that I learned came from

550
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 2: another area where I struggled a lot earlier, and probably

551
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 2: based on my initial lack of talent, should have quit,

552
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 2: which was which was springboard diving.

553
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 1: So springboard diving. Yeah.

554
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 2: I basically ended up diving because I didn't make the

555
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 2: middle school basketball team or the high school soccer team.

556
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 2: And I saw a lifeguard diving at a pool one

557
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 2: day and it was just mesmerize. I want to learn

558
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 2: how to do that. Unfortunately I walked like Frankenstein. I

559
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 2: couldn't touch my toes without bending my knees. I could

560
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:25,640
Speaker 2: hardly jump, very little explosive power or grace. Not cut

561
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 2: out to be a diver. I was really fortunate to

562
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 2: have a coach who saw more potential in me than

563
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 2: I saw in myself and said to me on day one,

564
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 2: I will never cut a diver who wants to be here.

565
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 2: And you know I'll put in as much as you

566
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 2: want and as much as you put in. And one

567
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 2: of the things I really struggled with was knowing when

568
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 2: a dive was good and when it was improving. I

569
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 2: felt like I needed to always aim for perfect tens.

570
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 2: And Eric Best, my coach, one day, sat me down

571
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 2: and he said, you know, there's no such thing as

572
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 2: a perfect ten. Wait, have the Olympic announcers been lying

573
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 2: to me? What do you mean? The whole point is

574
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 2: a ten is perfection. That's the appeal of this sport.

575
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 2: And he's like, nope, if you look at the rulebook,

576
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 2: a tennis for excellence, So even a dive that gets

577
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 2: a quote unquote perfect score is flawed. So then what

578
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 2: we started doing was we set targets for each dive

579
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 2: and he said, Okay, you know basic dive like a

580
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 2: back dive, We're going to aim for sixes and I

581
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 2: think that's within your range right now, and then we

582
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 2: would level that up over time as I started to

583
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 2: learn harder dives. I remember when I was doing a

584
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 2: two and a half summersault with a full twist, like,

585
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 2: let's just make the dive. You don't fail it. If

586
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 2: you don't do it for zeros, that'll count. And then

587
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 2: you know we're aiming for fours and so we have

588
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 2: dive specific goals. What I've done with that sort of

589
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 2: post diving career is realize I never had somebody like

590
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 2: this in my life. I need a judge, not just

591
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 2: a coach. So what I will do is I'll ask

592
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 2: people give me a zero to ten, how did that go?

593
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 2: And it's very rare for people to stay ten. Yeah,

594
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 2: of course, ye, So then you know whatever they say,

595
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 2: whether they give me a three, half or a six,

596
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 2: I just want to know how can I get closer

597
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 2: to ten. That's where I'm really trying to use other

598
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 2: people's reactions as a mirror. From there, I'll ask for suggestions,

599
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 2: But to your point, I need to make sure I'm

600
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 2: also proud of my own progress and I'm focusing on

601
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 2: my own principles. And so the last analysis that I do,

602
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 2: after I get the judges' ratings and the advice from

603
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 2: anybody who's willing to coach me, is to say, Okay,

604
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 2: let me go back to the version of me that

605
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 2: set this goal in the first place. Would that version

606
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 2: of me be proud? And if the answer is no,

607
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 2: I don't care what score I got, Yeah, how do

608
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 2: you navigate this?

609
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: I'd say that I've definitely got it wrong before as well,

610
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,479
Speaker 1: like I've definitely made mistakes in that where I think

611
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: when I first started out, I kind of kept things

612
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 1: very secret and I kept things very quiet. So I

613
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,959
Speaker 1: had started working on creating some content online and for

614
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 1: everyone who doesn't know, I had been making content offline

615
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: for ten years before that, speaking to small groups of

616
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: five to ten people colleges, after school clubs, universities things

617
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: like that. And my parents forced me to go to

618
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: public speaking in drama school when I was eleven years old.

619
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: So I started learning public speaking because I was a

620
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 1: shy kid. I have a very similar public speaking story

621
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: to you when I was eleven years old. So I

622
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: wasn't born with a skill. It was something that was

623
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: harnessed and developed, except for the accent. Except for the

624
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: accent which I was born with. Yes, I can't do

625
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: anything about that. And funnily enough, and I always like

626
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: to clarify this. When I see Ted speakers with American accents,

627
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: I prefer it. Oh yes, because to me, no, going

628
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: from an authority in America from like you know, Warton

629
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 1: or Harvard or you know, No, it has magic. No,

630
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 1: this is like I'm.

631
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 2: Wanting the Beatles to sing with American accents. No, that's different,

632
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 2: it's terrible. No. No, your British people always sound smarter.

633
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 2: We know this, Scot.

634
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: I feel the opposite way, honestly true. True. My wife

635
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 1: Raddi's cookbook is launching on February twenty seventh. It's called

636
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: Joyful and will help you cook plant based dishes effortlessly.

637
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: I'm so excited for her recipes to be in your

638
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: hands so you can make them in your home for

639
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: the people you love the most. And it would mean

640
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: the world to me. If you go to jo y

641
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: f U l lBook dot com to pre order now

642
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 1: for an exclusive video and the Daily Wellness Guide for

643
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:25,920
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644
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: jo y f U l lBook dot com and you

645
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: get your free Daily Wellness Guide made by Radi. So

646
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: I developed a skill that I didn't know what I

647
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: had used for when I met the monks and studied

648
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: the Geeta and Eastern Wisdom, I was like, oh wow,

649
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: I have a skill set that was ready to be

650
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: used for this when I'd never used it. I never

651
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: used public speaking of drama before that for anything meaningful

652
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: for me at least, and then I'd done that for

653
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: ten years and then I made my first piece of

654
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: content online. So but I made it in quiet because

655
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: some of these things that you talk about here, and

656
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: I'm pointing this out because we can go back to

657
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: it after I answer your question. I was scared of

658
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: looking stupid. You talk about making more mistakes theory versus

659
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: reality in the book. This is page forty, and you

660
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: talk about looking stupid, feeling shame, being laughed at, and

661
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: experiencing discomfort. I was scared of all of those things

662
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: because now it was going beyond my community of people,

663
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: like five to ten people who used to come and

664
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 1: hear me speak. I had no idea what the online

665
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: world would bring. I had never done that before. I

666
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: didn't have any friends who'd ever created any online content,

667
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: so I couldn't check in with someone. I didn't have

668
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: a coach, and so I was kind of doing it

669
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: in quiet. And I think what was beautiful about that

670
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: is I got to really construct my own voice that

671
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: was authentic to who I was, and was just genuine

672
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: to who I was. So my earliest videos are half

673
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: spoken half spoken word because I loved rap music growing up.

674
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: So there's you'll hear lazy rhymes, you'll hear words that

675
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: cascade together, and it's inspired by what I loved as

676
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: a teenager. The visuals were I've always been into art

677
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: and design, and so that was very easy for me.

678
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 1: I love aesthetics, I love visuals, I love feelings and experiences.

679
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: So I edited all my own videos. Granted, the editing

680
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: was sloppy because of cuts and sound, which I didn't

681
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: know well, but it was still what was natural to me.

682
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: And then when I put out my first piece of video,

683
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: the first people to react with the people I knew,

684
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: and they were all like, Jay, you talked too fast,

685
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: the music's too loud. Well, we don't think this point

686
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: is that great, And it was all negative feedback, and

687
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: I kept going because I was getting some joy from it.

688
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 1: So in the beginning it was that way, and I

689
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: think I've tried to hold onto that as much as possible,

690
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 1: because as the scale grew, the plethora of negativity or

691
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: criticism or judgment got louder as well, and I started

692
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: to look at it more seriously because now you're worried

693
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 1: about perception and image and how you think people view

694
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: you and whether people see your truth or they don't,

695
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: and you can feel defensive. And I think where I've

696
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: got to now is I still get affected by it.

697
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: I'm so not beyond getting affected by negative comments or

698
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 1: challenging comments or criticisms, because my monk training is left

699
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: me vulnerable at some points, because I have created a

700
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: space in which to always allow advice to come in,

701
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 1: because though that's seen as a mark of wanting to

702
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 1: improve and wanting to be better, and I've had to

703
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 1: learn to balance that with also knowing my intention. So

704
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: what I've accepted is that the only thing I can

705
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: control is my intention being aligned and pure to what

706
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: I believe. Not pure like in a godly way, I

707
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: mean pure in what I believe. But the way my

708
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: action is received will come with advice, feedback, and criticism.

709
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: And all I can keep doing is keep refining my

710
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: intention and hope that that will channel the effect of

711
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: communication externally. And no matter how perfect ten it is,

712
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: it will ever be perfect, and therefore there will always

713
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 1: be criticism, no matter how phenomenal an idea it is

714
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 1: or whatever may be. So that's me meandering around your

715
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: question too. That's how I'm dealing with it. I don't

716
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,399
Speaker 1: think that's a solution or a solve. It's how I'm

717
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 1: mentally kind of constructing bridges and walkways to navigate. How

718
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 1: stressful it is.

719
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 2: I think it makes a lot of sense. It also

720
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,959
Speaker 2: leaves me wondering is there a j shatty rap tour coming?

721
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 2: Ha ha, But I'll kidding aside, although I think there

722
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 2: would be an audience for that, I think one of

723
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 2: the things that you're making me think about is there's

724
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 2: a spectrum of you know, on one hand, we have

725
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 2: the monk ideal of either I'm open to everything or

726
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 2: I'm not going to live in fear of social disapproval.

727
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 2: On the other and I guess we have the monkey. Yeah,

728
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 2: just like we are social primates and anything that could

729
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 2: lose status could get us excluded, and this is really problematic.

730
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 2: I don't think either is really realistic for us as humans.

731
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 2: I think we're always going to care about what other

732
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,800
Speaker 2: people think. And I think my goal is to say

733
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 2: I want to care enough about other people's reactions to

734
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 2: learn from them, but not so much that I feel

735
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 2: pressure to conform to them.

736
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 1: It's powerful.

737
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 2: Well, the way that I've tried to get to that

738
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,839
Speaker 2: is to say, well, I'm always going to be disappointing somebody,

739
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 2: so let me decide whose opinions actually matter to me,

740
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 2: and then include myself in that group, and say it's

741
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 2: better to let down a bunch of strangers or a

742
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,879
Speaker 2: bunch of people whose standards are not the same as

743
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 2: mine or whose taste doesn't match mine than it is

744
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 2: to let down the people I care about and myself too.

745
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: What you inspired for me also with that conformity idea

746
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 1: is how I'm willing to be open enough to improve

747
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: but not see something as a reflection of my identity.

748
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 1: And I think that's where we all struggle. Where it's

749
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 1: like when someone says when someone laughs that you feel

750
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 1: like laughing at you, not at that particular event and

751
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: moment and day or evening or improv or whatever it was,

752
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 1: you feel you are someone who should feel shameful as

753
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: opposed to that was a moment where I made a mistake.

754
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: And I think that's where I think you struggle when

755
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 1: you hear feedback or advice that you start attaching to

756
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: your identity.

757
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 2: I think that's it's a huge problem. And I think

758
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 2: one of the most reassuring bodies of research that I

759
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 2: guess speaks to this from the book is is the

760
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 2: overblown implications effect, the idea that when people see you

761
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 2: make a mistake, they don't actually attribute that to your

762
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 2: incompetence or your lack of character like you think they do.

763
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 2: So you know, you watch somebody you know take a

764
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 2: really crappy photo and their thumb is in the frame,

765
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 2: and you don't immediately think that person is incapable of

766
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 2: being a decent photographer, Like that was a bad photo, right,

767
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 2: It was literally a bad snapshot, and it's a snapshot

768
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 2: of a bad snapshot, so it's a meta a bad snapshot.

769
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: You know.

770
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 2: I think somebody you know is trying to cook and

771
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 2: they burn whatever is in the oven. You don't immediately

772
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 2: think they're a bad cook. You think, oh, they got distracted,

773
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 2: or they you know, didn't have the right recipe, or

774
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 2: this is the first time they're trying that. And I

775
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 2: think we're really good at recognizing that. In others we

776
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 2: don't sort of leap to conclusions that they're inescapably, hopelessly

777
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 2: flawed and that they're failing makes them a failure. But

778
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 2: I think in our own self talk and our self assessment,

779
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 2: we do so much of that, like I screwed this up,

780
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 2: I am a screw up, and everyone else is going

781
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:38,879
Speaker 2: to know it.

782
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, so true, and it's and it gets it gets

783
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,439
Speaker 1: really dark, it gets really really dark. I'm so glad

784
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: we went. Then. Thank you for asking me to reflect

785
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 1: on that too, because it's I'm always trying to find

786
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 1: better pathways mentally to deal with these things that you

787
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 1: have to navigate on a daily basis.

788
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 2: I think we all are, and I don't think you

789
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:57,879
Speaker 2: need to thank me for wanting to learn.

790
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about that. I love this diagram that

791
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: you put in the book about how we think learning

792
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 1: happens versus how it actually happens. And I think that

793
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 1: idea of so how we think learning happens. I'll explain that,

794
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: and then you can explain how learning happens from your words.

795
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 1: Adam shows in the book this diagram that says knowledge

796
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,839
Speaker 1: leads to comfort, leads to practice, leads to progress, which

797
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 1: is how we think learning happens. And I think so

798
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,800
Speaker 1: many of our beliefs around learning do come from school,

799
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 1: and do come from even For me, learning happens in

800
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: that I learn something, now I know it fully, and

801
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,359
Speaker 1: now that rule stands forever. And I think modern day

802
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: learning isn't that at all. Like I don't know any

803
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 1: rules that have completely stood forever, and apart from obviously

804
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 1: certain mathematical or scientific rules, of course, but most rules

805
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 1: in business, most rules in marketing, most rules in sales,

806
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:53,720
Speaker 1: most rules in even a relationship. They change, they mold,

807
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:57,319
Speaker 1: they grow. And so I think that fixed approach is

808
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: hard to shake because you were always at the end

809
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 1: of it. Well, you got the wrong answer. So it

810
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 1: was always about the answer, and it was always about well,

811
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 1: if you knew the rule, you would have got the

812
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 1: right answer. And today we feel I'm not getting the

813
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 1: right answer, so I must not know the right rule,

814
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,280
Speaker 1: but that we're not finding that. So however, and reflect

815
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 1: on that and then guide us through the principle.

816
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 2: You're right. We have a kind of had this ideal

817
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 2: in our heads that I'm going to reach a mastery

818
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 2: and then I'm done. Yes, it's a version of what

819
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 2: Taal ben Shahar is called the arrival fallacy, that you know,

820
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 2: I'll hit my destination and then everything will have changed.

821
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:34,760
Speaker 2: And the reality is, when you reach mastery, you don't

822
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 2: freeze at that moment. You have to keep evolving your

823
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 2: knowledge and skills is the world around you evolves. And

824
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 2: I think what that leads a lot of people to

825
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 2: do is to spend far too much time trying to

826
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 2: get to the point of mastery before they ever really

827
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 2: try something. You know, from the book, I saw this

828
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 2: really clearly in examples of language learners. I mean, how

829
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 2: many people do you know that just concluded in high

830
00:39:55,800 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 2: school that they're incapable of mastering a foreign language? You Yeah,

831
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 2: what languages did you take?

832
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 1: So we did French in German from year seven, so

833
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 1: eleven years old to like fourteen, and if we did

834
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 1: well at those I got to do Russian. So I

835
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 1: actually studied Russian for a year and we could read, write,

836
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: and speak for a whole year. It was really great learning.

837
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: And then I never got to practice any of those languages,

838
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 1: and so they all fell away, and then when I

839
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:23,799
Speaker 1: went by the time I went to college, I had

840
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 1: already lost touch with all of them. So French, German,

841
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:28,240
Speaker 1: and Russian were the ones I studied the most.

842
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so it sounds like you actually did experience

843
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 2: some progress, but then it didn't stick and you weren't

844
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 2: able to keep it up.

845
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly.

846
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think that's pretty common. I think maybe

847
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 2: even more common is the like I don't have the

848
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 2: genes for this, I'm missing the language, the foreign language

849
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 2: gene or I missed my critical window. If only I had,

850
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 2: you know, if my parents had raised me bilingual, or

851
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 2: if I had started an immersion when I was four,

852
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 2: everything would be different. I met two amazing language learners

853
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:57,800
Speaker 2: when I was When I was doing research for the book.

854
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 2: Sarah Maria has Boone and Ben Lewis, and they both

855
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,760
Speaker 2: concluded after high school that they were incapable of learning

856
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 2: a foreign language. Sarah Maria could not make it through

857
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 2: Spanish and her father speaks fluent Spanish. Benny, I think

858
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 2: just had a disastrous experience with German, also with Irish.

859
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 2: And what's amazing about the two of them is that

860
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 2: combined they can speak a dozen languages fluently today a

861
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 2: dozen languages fluently conversationally. Even more so, they're polyglots. They're

862
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 2: people who not only talk but think in multiple languages.

863
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 2: They're effectively self taught, and they've picked it all up

864
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 2: in their twenties, thirties, ever beyond. It's amazing. So what

865
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 2: I wanted to know is what can we learn from them,

866
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 2: not just about language learning because but about any kind

867
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,280
Speaker 2: of learning, because they are professional learners. And my biggest

868
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 2: takeaway from you know, talking to them and also juxtaposing

869
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 2: what they do with the evidence, is that language classes

870
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 2: are broken in a lot of schools because basically what

871
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 2: happens is you learn a vocabulary and a bunch of

872
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 2: rules of grammar, and then you're taught to more or

873
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 2: less just write it down, and very few schools do

874
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 2: extensive practice in speaking, which means that you never learn

875
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 2: to actually talk in the language, which means you're not

876
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:19,879
Speaker 2: using the language and you don't practice enough to really

877
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 2: master it. What Sarah, Marie and Benny recommend is start

878
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,839
Speaker 2: speaking from day one. Literally the first day you're picking

879
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 2: up a language, you start talking in it. And what

880
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 2: will happen is you do that, is you're going to

881
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 2: make loss of mistakes, but through using it, you're going

882
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 2: to start to internalize it. And in fact, one of

883
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 2: the things we know from the research is when you

884
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 2: make a mistake, you're more likely to remember the correct

885
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 2: answer because it really sticks, like, oh wait, I screwed

886
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 2: that up last time, let me now change it. So

887
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 2: I think the broader lesson here is that to go

888
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 2: all the way back to the diagram, I think a

889
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 2: lot of people want to wait to use their knowledge

890
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 2: until they've acquired it. Oh wow, it's not how learning happens.

891
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 2: The way learning happens is you got to use your

892
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 2: knowledge as you're acquiring it, and that's how you build it.

893
00:42:58,320 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 2: And that's a virtuous cycle.

894
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that you know, it's so interesting. I

895
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 1: don't think I've ever heard that put that way, I

896
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,319
Speaker 1: feel like I've just and it's resonated so strongly with me.

897
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 1: Because as soon as I met Goronda Das, who's the

898
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 1: monk that I spent time with. As soon as I

899
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: met him, I had no qualification. But I went back

900
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 1: to college and started telling everyone about what I'd learned.

901
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 1: And then I'd go back and spend time with him

902
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: and go learn more and then come back and just

903
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: teach whatever I'd learned. And there was no I didn't

904
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 1: have any qualification to teach. I didn't I didn't understand

905
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 1: it fully, but it was like it was so much

906
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: more fun that way, and I allowed myself. I gave

907
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:35,399
Speaker 1: myself the permission to say, I'm just going to teach

908
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:36,879
Speaker 1: what I learned. I'm going to teach what I learn

909
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: up until now. I don't have to speak beyond my

910
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 1: level of realization or reflection. But I'm learning this. I'm

911
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:45,399
Speaker 1: fascinated by it. Let me share it.

912
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's that's a higher level version of

913
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 2: you know, of learning by doing, it's learning by teaching.

914
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

915
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,439
Speaker 2: And so often people like to say, well, those who

916
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 2: can't do teach, and I would edit that and say, no,

917
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 2: those who can't do can learn by teaching because exactly

918
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 2: as you found, when you explain something to someone else,

919
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 2: you remember it better and you also understand it better.

920
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 2: And I actually think anything you want to learn a

921
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 2: lot of people are trying to figure out what is

922
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 2: generative AI. You could go and take a class in it,

923
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 2: you could go tinker with it. I would say, go

924
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,840
Speaker 2: teach a class in it, or get a group of

925
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 2: people together who are also interested in learning it, and

926
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 2: each of you take a module to teach the rest

927
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 2: of the group, and that's when you're really going to

928
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 2: internalize it and start to master it.

929
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that. I mean, I'll butcher it now,

930
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:37,359
Speaker 1: trying to say as well as you did.

931
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 2: But yeah, because you always hurt for eloquence.

932
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: No, no, no, But that idea but so much.

933
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 2: Bad talker is a common that's actually a meme. I

934
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 2: don't know if it's if it's made it on your radar,

935
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:51,879
Speaker 2: But like this guy's incoherent. We never understand a word

936
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 2: he says, he's just babbling constantly.

937
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: No, but that particular state, And I honestly I love

938
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 1: that idea of how we're always waiting till we've something

939
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:02,439
Speaker 1: until the end of something to feel like we can

940
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 1: play shared do and so there's a few that.

941
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 2: Is well put. Yeah, that's exactly right. I'm like, I'm

942
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 2: trying to get to the end of the line and

943
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 2: then I will have made it and now I can

944
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 2: demo it, and now I can teach it.

945
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that making something public is so

946
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:25,439
Speaker 1: horrifying because the reason why we struggle to go teach

947
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 1: a class on AI is because we're scared we're going

948
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 1: to be asked questions that we don't know the answer to.

949
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 1: And actually, your spot on that is exactly the best

950
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 1: way to learn, because you were able to say to

951
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:37,839
Speaker 1: all those people, hey, I don't know, but i'll find

952
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: out for next time, or i'll email you the answer

953
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 1: whatever it may be. And I find that, but we

954
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 1: haven't created space for it to be okay to not know.

955
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 2: No. I think that's right. And there's actually some work

956
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 2: on this in psychology which shows that when an expert

957
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 2: expresses uncertainty, they actually end up becoming more believable, in

958
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 2: part because people are surprised and then they listen more

959
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 2: carefully and realized, wow, this person does know what they're

960
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 2: talking about. I don't think that permission should only be

961
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 2: granted to experts. I think, in fact, the less you know,

962
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 2: the quicker you should be to say I have no idea.

963
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 2: And it's really ironic that only the people who know

964
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 2: the most often get to the point of feeling secure

965
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 2: in that knowledge to be able to say, yeah, I

966
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 2: have no clue, but let me let me do some

967
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 2: research on that and come back to you.

968
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

969
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 2: I mean I felt this as a teacher. I felt like,

970
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 2: especially in the you know, the major public speaking anxiety

971
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 2: does it day's early career, I felt like I had

972
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 2: to be able to regurgitate a study for every single

973
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 2: question that came up. I can imagine like I thought

974
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 2: that was my job, and I was really missing out

975
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 2: on the joy that that students get and also that

976
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,720
Speaker 2: I get of saying I've never seen anyone explore that before.

977
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 2: I think that would make a great dissertation. Have you

978
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,800
Speaker 2: ever thought about coming to a PhD program? And I

979
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:51,320
Speaker 2: don't know. I think part of the joy of learning

980
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 2: is that every answer raises at least nine new questions,

981
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 2: and I think that we close that off when when

982
00:46:57,640 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 2: we expect people to always have an answer.

983
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 1: You've mentioned a few times and even in your diving example,

984
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 1: the need for a coach. You know, I feel like

985
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 1: therapy culture has and is still slowly penetrating. Like we

986
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 1: I think, if you're in the circle, you think of

987
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 1: it as like really accessible and easy and it's a

988
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 1: big deal and the stigmatized correct. And the truth is

989
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 1: it isn't across the board. It's getting there. It's slowly

990
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,280
Speaker 1: becoming destigmatized. I think the idea of finding a coach

991
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 1: is so unless you're an athlete, it seems so far

992
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 1: as an idea or as a thought process of how

993
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:32,319
Speaker 1: you approach things. I know there are executive coaches that

994
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: have definitely kind of got into the zeitgeish, but still

995
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 1: finding a coach is quite an alien approach. I find

996
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: that people have. There's stigma there, there's confusion there, there's

997
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 1: a lack of understanding of what is a coach? How

998
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 1: have you thought about it? Seeing as you've mentioned it

999
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:49,919
Speaker 1: a bunch of times and in the book and today.

1000
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,879
Speaker 2: Well, I think we're actually comfortable with it in certain domains. Right,

1001
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 2: so no one would ever hesitate to say, all right,

1002
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:58,839
Speaker 2: I want my kid to learn the piano. They need

1003
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 2: a piano teacher. So I think when it comes to

1004
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 2: you know, to hobbies and you know, kind of skills

1005
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 2: early in life. Everybody knows they need a coach to

1006
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 2: learn the basics and then move toward intermediate and then hopefully,

1007
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 2: you know, figure out if this is something they want

1008
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 2: to pursue further. I think where it starts to become

1009
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 2: a little uncomfortable is when you're an adult and you

1010
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 2: think that you should be able to teach yourself everything,

1011
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 2: or you want to be self reliant, not dependent on

1012
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 2: someone else. And I think that's that's a broken mental

1013
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 2: model of a coach. A coach is actually I think

1014
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 2: a good coach is trying to work him or herself

1015
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 2: out of a job and say, obviously, I'm going to

1016
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:37,359
Speaker 2: give you lots of advice and I'm going to try

1017
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 2: to help you improve, but at some point you should

1018
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 2: internalize the way that I look at your performance, the

1019
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 2: way that I think about helping you make progress, to

1020
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 2: the degree that you can figure out what would I

1021
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 2: say like after this, and then apply that advice. And

1022
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 2: at that point you're probably ready for a new coach

1023
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 2: who has different knowledge and skills to share with you.

1024
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:56,840
Speaker 2: And I think that's where I would start, is I

1025
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:58,919
Speaker 2: would say, coaches are all around us, you know, going

1026
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 2: back to the asking for advice idea, right, you ask

1027
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:04,320
Speaker 2: people for advice, you start to turn them into your coaches,

1028
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:06,799
Speaker 2: and there's no reason why you can't formalize this. A

1029
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 2: lot of and you're familiar with this. A lot of

1030
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 2: writers have writing groups where somebody's working out a manuscript

1031
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 2: and then you know four or five other writers are

1032
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:15,880
Speaker 2: basically coaching them and trying to help them improve it.

1033
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 2: I don't think that should be limited to you know,

1034
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:21,360
Speaker 2: it has to be my job, or it has to

1035
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 2: be the hobby I'm trying to improve at. I think

1036
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:25,399
Speaker 2: anything you want to you want to get better at,

1037
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 2: you could just ask for somebody to give you informal

1038
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 2: coaching and then you learn really quickly, is this person's

1039
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 2: perspective helpful to me in this domain?

1040
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:33,720
Speaker 1: Absolutely? Absolutely?

1041
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 2: Are you a coach?

1042
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 1: I'm looking for one right now. Funnily enough, that's why

1043
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 1: I asked you, and I think for me at the.

1044
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 2: Moment, now we know why you were asking, how do

1045
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 2: I figure out what to grow on?

1046
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 1: Yeah? Exactly, And I think there's that feeling for me

1047
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 1: about I'd say, if I really worded it accurately and

1048
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 1: clearly it would be I'm reintegrating and re renewing and

1049
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 1: refining my value because my life has changed so drastically,

1050
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:07,320
Speaker 1: and so there were times when I felt like I

1051
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 1: had kept up with the pace of my external growth,

1052
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, I was like, oh, no,

1053
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 1: this is way bigger than I thought it was, and

1054
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 1: this is so different from how I lived just ten

1055
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 1: to fifteen years ago, and I want to realign and

1056
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 1: reconnect with that, if that makes sense us. And so

1057
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 1: I think that is something which I've given myself personal

1058
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 1: time to do regularly, to refine, to realign, to reconnect.

1059
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: But to do it with someone else who can see

1060
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:44,360
Speaker 1: beyond and maybe has had experience of two very opposite

1061
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:48,360
Speaker 1: worlds and has traversed those parts may be really helpful.

1062
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 1: And so I think that's what I would be looking for,

1063
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 1: and so coaching would be the right modality for that.

1064
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:55,960
Speaker 2: I think it could be. I think it's interesting. There

1065
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 2: are two levels of that that I think could be fruitful.

1066
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 2: The first one is exactly the you framed it, which is,

1067
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 2: let me take a step back and figure out what

1068
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 2: my values are and how my core principles in life

1069
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 2: have changed should change moving forward.

1070
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 1: That's what it is.

1071
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 2: But I think the other layer of it is saying,

1072
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:15,959
Speaker 2: maybe the values are the same, but your opportunity set

1073
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 2: has evolved. So what does it mean to live your

1074
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:19,879
Speaker 2: values now given those opportunities?

1075
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 1: Correct? Absolutely, absolutely, there we go.

1076
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 2: I've got a few candidates for you. I'll suggest them

1077
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:25,239
Speaker 2: off on.

1078
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 1: Please love I genuinely love that. Yeah, I know. And

1079
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 1: that's definitely been where my head's been at probably the

1080
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 1: most most recently. And it's and again, I usually sit

1081
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:36,239
Speaker 1: with something like this and let it simmer and let

1082
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 1: it clarify. And it's nice in a form like this

1083
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:42,319
Speaker 1: to be able to vocalize it in an articulate way.

1084
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 1: And that's another beautiful thing about talking to someone else

1085
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 1: about it. If you keep going around it in your

1086
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 1: own head, chances are you won't say as articulately as

1087
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 1: you would say to someone else because you wanted to

1088
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 1: make sense to them.

1089
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 2: That's one of my favorite things about conversation. There was

1090
00:51:55,680 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 2: a biographer once. It was em Forster's biographer. She used

1091
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 2: this beautiful phrase called inverse charisma, which was the idea.

1092
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 2: She said Forrester had this ability to ask you such

1093
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:13,439
Speaker 2: insightful questions with such sincere interest that he brought out

1094
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:18,800
Speaker 2: a more insightful, more charming version of yourself than existed.

1095
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:21,440
Speaker 2: Like that's part of what a good coach is. I

1096
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:24,280
Speaker 2: actually think great coaches are filled with in verse charisma.

1097
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 2: They're not giving the rousing halftime speech all the time

1098
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 2: or the pep talk. They're not always necessarily kicking you

1099
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 2: in the butt, you know, to get you to work

1100
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 2: harder or persist longer. I think what they're doing is

1101
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 2: is posing challenges and ideas for you that bring out

1102
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 2: a better version of you.

1103
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I couldn't agree more. And I think that

1104
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,400
Speaker 1: is where hidden potential is. I mean, it's someone is

1105
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 1: not planting potential. It's not manufactured potential. It's not inception potential.

1106
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 1: It's hidden potential. It's there and someone's helping ask the

1107
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:00,760
Speaker 1: questions so you can keep revealing and peeling way the layers.

1108
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 1: And I think that is exactly what a good coach does.

1109
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 1: Good coach is not telling you who you are, or

1110
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 1: telling you the answer, or telling you who you could be.

1111
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 1: It's allowing you to discover that for yourself, which is

1112
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:15,279
Speaker 1: needed for someone else to do that, because otherwise you're

1113
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 1: just stuck in your head saying I'm not that. I

1114
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 1: remember a coach years ago when I had left the monastery,

1115
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 1: I was working at Accenture in London, and he'd always

1116
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 1: say to me, you're an entrepreneur. Just from watching you,

1117
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 1: I can observe that you're an entrepreneur. And I'd be like, no,

1118
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 1: I'm not an entrepreneur. I don't want to be an entrepreneur.

1119
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,319
Speaker 1: And I said I would fight and debate that with him,

1120
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 1: I would give him all the reasons, and he said, Jay,

1121
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 1: one day you'll see. And now I look back and

1122
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 1: I think, wow, I was. That is exactly who I was,

1123
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,400
Speaker 1: not in the in the way that it may be

1124
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 1: seen in the world, but the autonomy, the wanting of

1125
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,840
Speaker 1: being artistic, being a leader, wanting to create, wanting to

1126
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:52,799
Speaker 1: produce without with freedom and without restraint, like all of

1127
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,440
Speaker 1: that quality of an entrepreneur. I think language is so

1128
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 1: limiting too. It is yeah, right, yeah, you're.

1129
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 2: Right, if you would, if you would defy, and entrepreneurship

1130
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 2: back then as being someone who sees opportunities and then

1131
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 2: creates a vision and then builds around that without giving

1132
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 2: up a ton of freedom, Like yeah, of course, that's

1133
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:11,439
Speaker 2: who I am.

1134
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:13,840
Speaker 1: And instead you're like, I got to be I don't

1135
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 1: want to start like that's that's really in my head.

1136
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't want to manage people like

1137
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:18,400
Speaker 1: I don't Yeah.

1138
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I got to be pitching a scrub daddy on

1139
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 2: shark tape.

1140
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:22,799
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, that's yeah. I don't want to start

1141
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:24,640
Speaker 1: business like that's not you know, that's not what I

1142
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 1: want to do with my life. And so, yeah, it's fascinating.

1143
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 1: Our language limits us. And I was going to ask

1144
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:32,640
Speaker 1: you that about that, like, how do you feel comfortable?

1145
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 1: And this is chapter three of your book, The Impact Imperfectionists,

1146
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 1: finding the sweet spot between flawed and flawless? How do

1147
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 1: you allow yourself to release anything when you know it's

1148
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 1: going to be flawed and imperfect Because I think that

1149
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 1: that's the challenge right with the book, especially with social

1150
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:55,240
Speaker 1: media less so it's it's short form and short terms,

1151
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 1: so there's it's easier to get to what you want

1152
00:54:57,440 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 1: to get to. But with a book with a to

1153
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:03,720
Speaker 1: with a obviously, as a professor, I mean, everything you're teaching,

1154
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 1: you know people are going to practice it for years potentially.

1155
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 1: How do you feel comfortable putting something out that's imperfect

1156
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:11,719
Speaker 1: and incomplete.

1157
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 2: This is a little embarrassing, but I have to say so.

1158
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 2: I after writing the book, I said, all right, I

1159
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 2: want to use some of the psychometric tools that we

1160
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 2: were trained in to create a fun quiz for people

1161
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 2: to identify what their greatest character strength is among those

1162
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:27,880
Speaker 2: and then also an area for growth. So I finished

1163
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 2: the quiz, I sent it out to a bunch of

1164
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:32,719
Speaker 2: people to pilot it, and then it was time for

1165
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 2: me to take it. And after writing this whole chapter

1166
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 2: about what I've learned about being an imperfectionist, my lowest

1167
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 2: score was imperfectionism. So I am not fully recovered from perfectionism,

1168
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:49,279
Speaker 2: and it's sometimes hard for me to release things. I

1169
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:51,439
Speaker 2: think what's helped me is a couple of things. One

1170
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 2: the calibration of saying, okay, if it's something as big

1171
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 2: as a book, I mean, I'm aiming for a nine

1172
00:55:57,640 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 2: like this. I'm going to pour a lot of time

1173
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:01,759
Speaker 2: into it. Hopefully a lot of people are going to

1174
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 2: engage with it, and so I really want it to

1175
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:05,400
Speaker 2: be as good as I'm capable of doing at that

1176
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 2: moment in my life. If it's a social media post,

1177
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 2: like I'm content with a six and some people might

1178
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 2: get angry at me, some people might misunderstand me. I'm

1179
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:17,520
Speaker 2: definitely gonna learn something, and it's better to put out

1180
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 2: a bunch of potential sixes and hit some mates than

1181
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 2: to post once a year. As somebody who cares a

1182
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 2: lot about both sharing knowledge and learning from other people's

1183
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:29,319
Speaker 2: reactions to those you know, those posts, I think that's

1184
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 2: been really helpful. And I guess what I've realized through

1185
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:34,400
Speaker 2: that is if you never put anything out into the world,

1186
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 2: then you're actually limiting your contribution. And I think when

1187
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 2: when psychologists study regret, it's pretty clear that in the

1188
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 2: short run, people are afraid of failing, but in the

1189
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 2: long run, they're more afraid of failing to try. And

1190
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 2: that's that's kind of where I've I've come down, is

1191
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 2: I'd rather fail than fail to try it all.

1192
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 1: It's really fascinating. You said something there which I really

1193
00:56:56,840 --> 00:57:00,879
Speaker 1: resonate with, is this idea that part of the is

1194
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,720
Speaker 1: in the sharing and seeing reactions. And I think we underestimate,

1195
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 1: like I could honestly sit down and think I know

1196
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:10,920
Speaker 1: everything about a subject and keep quizzing myself and think

1197
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 1: I know everything, but the moment I share it with

1198
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 1: someone else and they ask a question, I'll be like, oh,

1199
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 1: I should have been you know that was missing. I

1200
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:20,720
Speaker 1: didn't think of that. And so sharing it in some form,

1201
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 1: even if it's not the complete form, but sharing a

1202
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 1: talk based on one of the chapters, or sharing I

1203
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 1: often do that with podcasts, Like when I have an idea,

1204
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:29,920
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, let me just record a podcast episode

1205
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 1: about that and see what people have to think about it.

1206
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 1: And it's a great way of just experimenting and testing

1207
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 1: and seeing what part of it I didn't consider. Yes,

1208
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 1: because someone will consider it, And we don't see that

1209
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 1: as part of the growth process. We see as separate.

1210
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 1: We see as I'm going to make something complete, people

1211
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 1: are going to have exactly the reaction I want to it,

1212
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 1: and that will be the success of it.

1213
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's right. I think the medium also matters,

1214
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 2: So podcasting is much more forgiving medium. I think that

1215
00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 2: book writing one hundred percent because nobody expects you to

1216
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 2: have said everything exactly right in the moment, whereas a book.

1217
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 2: But yeah, you say something wrong in a book, it's like, well,

1218
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 2: shouldn't you have done your research? Yeah, why didn't you

1219
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:09,720
Speaker 2: fact check that one of the things that I see

1220
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 2: a lot of people hold back on when it comes

1221
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 2: to sharing anything they've created. Is so many people limit

1222
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 2: themselves by saying I don't want to self promote.

1223
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 1: I'm so glad we're going here, let's go there.

1224
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:24,880
Speaker 2: This this is not about me. I'm like good because

1225
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 2: there is a huge difference between self promotion and idea promotion.

1226
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 2: Promoting yourself is saying, look at me, look at how

1227
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:33,880
Speaker 2: great I am. I'm special. You're sharing the awardsy one,

1228
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 2: You're posting a lot of selfies here, you're in the spotlight.

1229
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:40,960
Speaker 2: I think idea promotion is really different, which is to

1230
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 2: say I made something I'm proud of. I hope it's

1231
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 2: valuable to you. I hope you get some joy out

1232
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:48,479
Speaker 2: of it. If you don't put that out in the world,

1233
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:52,880
Speaker 2: you're depriving people of benefiting from what you poured your

1234
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 2: heart into. And that that to me, seems like a mistake.

1235
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:58,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, did you always feel like that it was something

1236
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:00,680
Speaker 1: you had to wrap your head around, Because that's something

1237
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:02,960
Speaker 1: I definitely had to wrap my head around. So I'm intrigued. No,

1238
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 1: Because as a professor, I just don't imagine putting a

1239
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 1: book on promoting like that doesn't come naturally Like that

1240
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:09,280
Speaker 1: isn't feel.

1241
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 2: Not at all.

1242
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1243
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:12,440
Speaker 2: No, I remember a few weeks after I got tenure,

1244
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 2: colleague wrote and said, Hey, I'm thinking about writing a

1245
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 2: book about motivation. You've done a lot of research in

1246
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:20,480
Speaker 2: this area. Do you want to co author it? Wow?

1247
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 2: I love I loved working with this collaborator. Huge admirer

1248
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:27,520
Speaker 2: of his work. This is a great honor. And I've

1249
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 2: always wanted to to figure out if there's a way

1250
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 2: I could share my ideas more broadly than just with

1251
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:35,080
Speaker 2: the students I happened to meet in the classroom. I

1252
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 2: immediately I had a lab meeting later that day with

1253
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:40,120
Speaker 2: a group of undergraduates and I told them I was

1254
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 2: going to do this, and they had a mutiny, like no,

1255
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:46,520
Speaker 2: you cannot. You cannot write a book about somebody else's ideas.

1256
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 2: You need to write your own book, Like Nope, can't

1257
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 2: do it. I cannot do that. This is like I

1258
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 2: don't feel comfortable to it. I hardly even teach my

1259
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 2: own research in the classroom. I want to. I want

1260
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:58,920
Speaker 2: to share with you the knowledge that I've found most useful.

1261
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:01,440
Speaker 2: Like I don't think my my research is like the

1262
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:04,600
Speaker 2: most important thing for me to teach you. And they

1263
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 2: push back really hard, and they said, look, you have

1264
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 2: a responsibility if you've invested a lot of your own

1265
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 2: time and energy and you know in the work that

1266
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 2: you do, to share that more broadly and get it

1267
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:18,760
Speaker 2: out there and see what people think of it. And

1268
01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:21,400
Speaker 2: they basically held me hostage. They said, you're not leaving

1269
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 2: this lab meeting until you agree you will write your

1270
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:26,440
Speaker 2: own book before you help somebody else do theirs. And

1271
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 2: eventually they logic bullied me into agreeing, and I kind

1272
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 2: of came around and said, Okay, this is what we do.

1273
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 2: We don't create knowledge for it to collect us in

1274
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:41,440
Speaker 2: academic journals or for it to only be available to

1275
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 2: students who are lucky enough to get into an Ivy

1276
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:48,120
Speaker 2: League school. That's not right. I believe in democratizing knowledge,

1277
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:49,920
Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm going to do This book came out

1278
01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 2: a little bit beforehand. I send an email to my

1279
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 2: network just saying, hey, you know, I wrote this book.

1280
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 2: If you find it interesting or useful, would be really

1281
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 2: grateful if you would help spread the word. The responses

1282
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 2: were so lovely, but I got one email that kind

1283
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:07,920
Speaker 2: of crushed me in the moment, and it was from

1284
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:12,160
Speaker 2: an academic colleague who said, dear Adam, love the book,

1285
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 2: hate this self promotion. This was my fear. And I

1286
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:21,440
Speaker 2: thought about it and I ruminated about it, and then

1287
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 2: it hit me, this is not self promotion. It's idea

1288
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:28,480
Speaker 2: of promotion. This is about the knowledge contained in the book.

1289
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 2: I went out of my way to site a bunch of,

1290
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 2: you know, a long list of researchers. Later I was

1291
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 2: told too many. I was trying to synthesize a body

1292
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:37,280
Speaker 2: of knowledge and get it out there. And we have

1293
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 2: to be to a certain degree in the spotlight in

1294
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 2: order to promote our work. And I think, you know,

1295
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:47,000
Speaker 2: people want to connect to the author, the narrator, and

1296
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:49,200
Speaker 2: so there's a I think an amount of self disclosure

1297
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:52,160
Speaker 2: that's required, but self promotion that does not have to happen.

1298
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:54,920
Speaker 2: And I looked at the book and I said, Okay,

1299
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:58,240
Speaker 2: the main things I've shared about myself are mistakes I made,

1300
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:01,120
Speaker 2: times I failed, and what I learned from those. So

1301
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:04,120
Speaker 2: I feel okay saying this was idea promotion, not self promotion.

1302
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 2: And that's for me the litmus test ever since. So

1303
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:09,160
Speaker 2: that I guess that's how I landed at that distinction.

1304
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:13,000
Speaker 1: It's such an interesting thing for any artist, any creative,

1305
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:15,920
Speaker 1: any academic, any any person who feels that they've come

1306
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:20,360
Speaker 1: across something worth sharing. And that's why I've always been

1307
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:23,400
Speaker 1: a fan of anyone who has anything worth sharing, because

1308
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:26,720
Speaker 1: there are so many I think, isn't Ted's what's Ted's tagline?

1309
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 1: Or at one point idea is worth spreading? Ideas worth spreading?

1310
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 2: I like sharing better. Yeah, I don't want to assume

1311
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 2: that every idea should be spread, but share it with

1312
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:35,920
Speaker 2: someone and let's find out.

1313
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:38,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, sharing, And I think we all have ideas worth sharing,

1314
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 1: we have insights worth sharing of some kind, and especially

1315
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:43,760
Speaker 1: if you an artists, creates for academic and I think

1316
01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 1: for me it was a very very similar journey to yours.

1317
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:50,120
Speaker 1: And it's so interesting to hear that academic circles and

1318
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 1: spiritual circles can often have the same habits of behavior.

1319
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 1: And for me, when I wrote Think like a Monk,

1320
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 1: which was my first book, the biggest thing I was

1321
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 1: trying to do, and what I learned in my second book,

1322
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:06,720
Speaker 1: which if I would have known in my first book,

1323
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:09,560
Speaker 1: I would have done this is kind of explain this

1324
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:13,000
Speaker 1: thought process where I tried to do it intuitively in

1325
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:15,840
Speaker 1: how I shared it, as opposed to explicitly spelled it out,

1326
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:18,720
Speaker 1: whereas now I'm much better at explicitly spelling out what

1327
01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 1: I'm doing. I did that to honor all monk traditions.

1328
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:25,680
Speaker 1: So I studied lots of different monk traditions. I spoke

1329
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:28,360
Speaker 1: to lots of different monks, and so it wasn't just

1330
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:30,720
Speaker 1: the tradition I studied in. So that was very important

1331
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:33,160
Speaker 1: to me because I believed that there were traditions beyond

1332
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:36,200
Speaker 1: mind that would have values to share and important messages

1333
01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:38,840
Speaker 1: to share. The other thing that I tried to do

1334
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:43,920
Speaker 1: in the book was I definitely have always wanted to

1335
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:48,720
Speaker 1: make ancient wisdom accessible, practical, and relevant. That has always

1336
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:52,480
Speaker 1: been my mission. Because I'm trying to speak to the

1337
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:56,400
Speaker 1: eighteen year old kid that I was in London before

1338
01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:59,480
Speaker 1: I got into spirituality and meditation and mindfulness. I'm not

1339
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:01,880
Speaker 1: trying to to the person I am now or someone

1340
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:04,240
Speaker 1: who's already learned a ton and so to me, to

1341
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:07,480
Speaker 1: make it simple and accessible and relevant was my biggest

1342
01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:10,400
Speaker 1: goal and always has been, and that can often come

1343
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:14,000
Speaker 1: with the critique of you're watering it down, you're oversimplifying it.

1344
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:17,760
Speaker 1: This isn't the truth in the way it should be shared.

1345
01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 1: And the other thing was similar to you, and I

1346
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:22,240
Speaker 1: love that you said that too. I never shared an

1347
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:25,200
Speaker 1: enlightened experience in the book. All the experiences are mistakes

1348
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:29,160
Speaker 1: there when meditation went wrong. Me being envious, they're me

1349
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:33,040
Speaker 1: judging people, They're me wanting to get what the monks

1350
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:35,880
Speaker 1: have without having done the work, like all the stories

1351
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:39,720
Speaker 1: that the human experience of a kid from London who

1352
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:42,400
Speaker 1: doesn't have the qualification to be where he is in

1353
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:44,800
Speaker 1: this space, trying to make sense of it. And and

1354
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:47,040
Speaker 1: so the book was it wasn't think like me like

1355
01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:48,480
Speaker 1: that was in the book. It was called think like

1356
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:50,560
Speaker 1: a monk, Like I'm not a monk anymore, and I

1357
01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:52,960
Speaker 1: want to show us how we can think like monks

1358
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:55,320
Speaker 1: but not live like monks. And I think it was

1359
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:58,360
Speaker 1: really interesting to me, just our again it comes from

1360
01:04:58,400 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 1: our preconceived notion on ideas, language having baggage and thoughts

1361
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:06,320
Speaker 1: where people were just like, oh, but you're not a

1362
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 1: monk anymore, so how do you teach that? And this

1363
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:11,560
Speaker 1: isn't your life? And it was so interesting to me

1364
01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 1: that we couldn't learn from things that the things I'd

1365
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:18,240
Speaker 1: learned and gained as opposed to if you're not exactly

1366
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:20,240
Speaker 1: that thing anymore, then you can't teach it.

1367
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:24,000
Speaker 2: I think there are things you could study that you

1368
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:27,400
Speaker 2: don't have to share. If you were just really fascinated

1369
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 2: by painting or rare coins, you could say this is

1370
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:34,840
Speaker 2: a personal interest to mine, and it's just it's my

1371
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:38,520
Speaker 2: own curiosity. I think. You and choosing to be a monk,

1372
01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:41,680
Speaker 2: me and choosing to be a psychologist, we chose to

1373
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:44,440
Speaker 2: take a deep dive into the mind and human behavior.

1374
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:47,160
Speaker 2: If we gain knowledge from that. It feels like it's

1375
01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:49,520
Speaker 2: selfish not to share it, Like, why would you keep

1376
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:52,240
Speaker 2: that to yourself? Why should the wisdom of monks only

1377
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:54,480
Speaker 2: be accessible to monks. That doesn't seem right.

1378
01:05:54,600 --> 01:05:56,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't seem right at all. It feels like

1379
01:05:56,920 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 1: taking away. It feels selfish. And also to honor those people.

1380
01:06:01,120 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 1: To me, the book was honoring these amazing people that

1381
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:05,680
Speaker 1: have done it for their whole lives and studies of

1382
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:08,880
Speaker 1: people who meditated for forty years and you know that's

1383
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:12,240
Speaker 1: not me, And I just found it interesting that. Yeah,

1384
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:14,760
Speaker 1: it's fascinating. And there's a great book by Austin Cleon

1385
01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:17,600
Speaker 1: called Show Your Work yes, and I really like it,

1386
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:19,920
Speaker 1: and I recommend that to anyone who's struggling with showing

1387
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:22,720
Speaker 1: their work because it's exactly and I love the way

1388
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:25,720
Speaker 1: you've differentiated been self promotion and idea promotion. And I

1389
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:28,480
Speaker 1: really hope that that stays with people who are listening

1390
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:30,680
Speaker 1: and watching, because if you have an idea that you

1391
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:34,800
Speaker 1: believe is worth sharing and worth helping people and supporting people,

1392
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:37,200
Speaker 1: please don't hold onto it, like please don't hide it

1393
01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:40,880
Speaker 1: from the world, because I worry for us to only

1394
01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:43,920
Speaker 1: be exposed to the same three ideas that everyone's exposed to,

1395
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:46,680
Speaker 1: because we hide away from all these other new ones.

1396
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:49,760
Speaker 2: Sometimes they hear people hold back for another reason, which

1397
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:52,120
Speaker 2: is they're afraid somebody is going to steal their idea.

1398
01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:55,000
Speaker 2: And Austin Cleon wrote about this and Steal Like an Artist, Yeah,

1399
01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:57,600
Speaker 2: another book of his that I found very thought provoking.

1400
01:06:58,440 --> 01:07:00,880
Speaker 2: My response to that is, you know what, it is

1401
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:03,880
Speaker 2: possible that somebody will steal your idea. Most of the

1402
01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:08,160
Speaker 2: time that won't be intentional, but what psychologists have sometimes

1403
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:12,640
Speaker 2: called kleptomnesia, where you misremember an idea as your own

1404
01:07:12,760 --> 01:07:16,160
Speaker 2: and forget the source. That can happen inadvertently you hear

1405
01:07:16,200 --> 01:07:19,640
Speaker 2: an idea, you know, you don't necessarily track where you

1406
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:22,200
Speaker 2: learned it, and then you know it kind of bubbles

1407
01:07:22,280 --> 01:07:24,080
Speaker 2: up a month later and you think you thought of it.

1408
01:07:25,080 --> 01:07:28,040
Speaker 2: I think that can happen. Ideas can get stolen on purpose,

1409
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:30,960
Speaker 2: They can get stolen by accident. What I always want

1410
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:32,800
Speaker 2: to say to people who are afraid of their ideas

1411
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:36,920
Speaker 2: getting stolen is if you have one big idea and

1412
01:07:36,960 --> 01:07:38,560
Speaker 2: you're afraid of putting it out there because you think

1413
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:40,880
Speaker 2: someone else is going to steal it, you don't have

1414
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:45,280
Speaker 2: a lot of ideas, and people who generally succeed with

1415
01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:48,320
Speaker 2: ideas are people who are constantly generating ideas. And so

1416
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:50,760
Speaker 2: what you should do is you should generate a whole

1417
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:54,400
Speaker 2: portfolio of ideas, and then you're not identified with any

1418
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:56,920
Speaker 2: one of them, you don't feel attached to just one

1419
01:07:56,960 --> 01:07:59,040
Speaker 2: of them, and then the risk goes way down.

1420
01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:01,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, this so many blocks that we could talk about.

1421
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:05,120
Speaker 1: Whether it's and I mean, one's the ego, right, So

1422
01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:09,840
Speaker 1: the self promotion is almost like an inverse ego. So

1423
01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:12,960
Speaker 1: it's almost like we think we're better because we're not

1424
01:08:13,080 --> 01:08:15,880
Speaker 1: promoting an idea. It's like we're we're we're doing that

1425
01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:19,200
Speaker 1: right this, Yeah, like that is ironic, Yeah, right, Like

1426
01:08:19,280 --> 01:08:22,760
Speaker 1: it's like I think I'm better because I'm not monetizing

1427
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:28,600
Speaker 1: or democratizing or public popularizing and publicizing. Yes, yeah, popularizing

1428
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:32,960
Speaker 1: or publicizing an idea makes it better to not do that.

1429
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:36,160
Speaker 1: You talk about the ego differently, but let's talk about

1430
01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:38,439
Speaker 1: in that category first of all. Like it's it's interesting

1431
01:08:38,479 --> 01:08:42,040
Speaker 1: how that scene as are holier than thou kind of approach,

1432
01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:45,000
Speaker 1: and I don't think either is holier. I just think

1433
01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:50,320
Speaker 1: that one's compassionate and and to me, that's more what

1434
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:52,360
Speaker 1: it is. Like I think when someone shares an idea

1435
01:08:52,439 --> 01:08:55,600
Speaker 1: about an experience that I could never have, to me,

1436
01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:58,160
Speaker 1: that's just compassion. It's their compassion to share with me.

1437
01:08:58,280 --> 01:09:00,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, there's no reason why people can have

1438
01:09:00,280 --> 01:09:03,880
Speaker 2: multiple motives behind their behavior, and I actually do, I

1439
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:06,960
Speaker 2: mean almost always to us. Yeah, I think it's very

1440
01:09:07,040 --> 01:09:09,640
Speaker 2: rare that people are conscious of all their motives or

1441
01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:12,519
Speaker 2: willing to admit to all of them. But I actually

1442
01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:17,080
Speaker 2: think the most sustainable route to unlocking people's HIDEN potential

1443
01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:20,679
Speaker 2: is to try to align their you know, their personal

1444
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:24,719
Speaker 2: aspirations with social good. And I don't think there's anything

1445
01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:27,040
Speaker 2: wrong with saying yeah, I want to promote this idea,

1446
01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:30,200
Speaker 2: both because I wanted to help other people and because

1447
01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:34,639
Speaker 2: I appreciate people respecting my knowledge and considering me a

1448
01:09:34,680 --> 01:09:38,360
Speaker 2: credible source. Like I actually think it would be problematic

1449
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:41,280
Speaker 2: if you're like, yep, I care nothing about my own

1450
01:09:41,320 --> 01:09:46,000
Speaker 2: reputation whatsoever. Like only character matters to me. And even

1451
01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:50,400
Speaker 2: if people think I'm an idiot and I'm dishonest and

1452
01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:53,240
Speaker 2: I lack integrity, like, as long as I know I'm

1453
01:09:53,240 --> 01:09:55,120
Speaker 2: a good person, that's good. Like that's just not functional

1454
01:09:55,360 --> 01:09:57,400
Speaker 2: in the social world. And so I think we should

1455
01:09:57,400 --> 01:09:59,240
Speaker 2: give people. This is another we need to give people

1456
01:09:59,479 --> 01:10:03,240
Speaker 2: the space to say yes, like I do want to

1457
01:10:03,240 --> 01:10:06,479
Speaker 2: be valued and appreciated for things that I think are important,

1458
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:08,760
Speaker 2: and I want to add value to other people too.

1459
01:10:08,840 --> 01:10:11,440
Speaker 1: Oh I'm so glad you went there. Yeah, it's so important.

1460
01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:14,720
Speaker 1: It's so important to allow ourselves that too, Like, yeah,

1461
01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:16,519
Speaker 1: do I like it when someone leaves me a nice

1462
01:10:16,560 --> 01:10:19,320
Speaker 1: review on the podcast or the book? I do? Yeah,

1463
01:10:19,520 --> 01:10:22,639
Speaker 1: I love it. It feels great. And do I do things

1464
01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:24,720
Speaker 1: because they make me feel good? Yes, I do, and

1465
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:27,160
Speaker 1: I'm sure And at the same time, it comes from

1466
01:10:27,160 --> 01:10:28,639
Speaker 1: a place of wanting to do good in the world

1467
01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:31,280
Speaker 1: and wanting to spread ideas that will help people and

1468
01:10:31,320 --> 01:10:34,759
Speaker 1: serve people and support people and hopefully help them transform

1469
01:10:34,840 --> 01:10:37,960
Speaker 1: their own lives. And it comes from both of those places.

1470
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:39,719
Speaker 1: I want to do things that make me feel good

1471
01:10:40,160 --> 01:10:43,280
Speaker 1: and do good in the world. Like I think that's

1472
01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:46,479
Speaker 1: I don't know any other way. Actually I don't either, Yeah,

1473
01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:48,080
Speaker 1: And I don't know how to live in a world.

1474
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:50,760
Speaker 1: If I only tried to do good to others, I

1475
01:10:50,800 --> 01:10:53,479
Speaker 1: would automatically feel good from that anyway. But if I

1476
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:55,360
Speaker 1: was only to do things that were only good for me,

1477
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:56,840
Speaker 1: I don't think I'd be satisfied either.

1478
01:10:57,080 --> 01:11:00,200
Speaker 2: No, I mean you'd lack the purpose that someone of

1479
01:11:00,200 --> 01:11:01,240
Speaker 2: your work concentrates on.

1480
01:11:01,479 --> 01:11:03,960
Speaker 1: What was the thing you found most surprising when writing

1481
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:07,559
Speaker 1: Hidden Potential About Hidden Potential, specifically that kind of you

1482
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:10,120
Speaker 1: were like, Oh wow, I didn't I'd never to find this.

1483
01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:12,599
Speaker 2: I think the first one was was the idea that

1484
01:11:12,920 --> 01:11:16,160
Speaker 2: learning character skills can be more powerful than learning cognitive skills,

1485
01:11:16,840 --> 01:11:18,840
Speaker 2: assuming that you have a foundation and you know in

1486
01:11:19,360 --> 01:11:23,439
Speaker 2: thinking skills that learning to embrace discomfort and become more

1487
01:11:23,439 --> 01:11:26,680
Speaker 2: of a sponge and accept the right imperfections like that

1488
01:11:26,680 --> 01:11:29,479
Speaker 2: that could fuel more growth than you know, if you're

1489
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:33,640
Speaker 2: an entrepreneur, learning finance and marketing stunning, and that you

1490
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:36,640
Speaker 2: can learn those skills in your forties and fifties as

1491
01:11:36,680 --> 01:11:39,040
Speaker 2: opposed to thinking that those character skills are set when

1492
01:11:39,040 --> 01:11:44,760
Speaker 2: you're young. That I found liberating and encouraging. So that

1493
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:47,519
Speaker 2: was a surprise. I think that maybe a bigger surprise though,

1494
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:50,519
Speaker 2: just as I think through the insights that I picked

1495
01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:53,160
Speaker 2: up as I was investigating, I think I had this

1496
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:56,759
Speaker 2: image of people who, you know, not just to achieve

1497
01:11:56,840 --> 01:11:59,599
Speaker 2: greater things, but achieve the greatest things. I had this

1498
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:03,280
Speaker 2: image that they just figured out how to make the

1499
01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:08,280
Speaker 2: daily grind just tolerable. I think about Steph Curry just,

1500
01:12:08,479 --> 01:12:11,760
Speaker 2: you know, drilling over and over again to shoot as

1501
01:12:11,800 --> 01:12:14,719
Speaker 2: well as he does. I assumed that he just figured

1502
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:18,360
Speaker 2: out how to not mind the monotony and the boredom

1503
01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:21,400
Speaker 2: and the exhaustion, and he would just power through it,

1504
01:12:21,479 --> 01:12:25,080
Speaker 2: and he had a superhuman ability to tolerate extreme amounts

1505
01:12:25,120 --> 01:12:28,799
Speaker 2: of discomfort. Light bulb. While reading the research on deliberate practice,

1506
01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:31,680
Speaker 2: was like, it's not that motivating for a lot of

1507
01:12:31,680 --> 01:12:34,040
Speaker 2: people to just do the same activity repetitively over and

1508
01:12:34,080 --> 01:12:37,120
Speaker 2: over again. If you're Steph Curry shooting is fun like

1509
01:12:37,320 --> 01:12:39,920
Speaker 2: doing wind sprints and then trying to make baskets when

1510
01:12:39,960 --> 01:12:42,000
Speaker 2: you can hardly breathe, and doing that over and over again,

1511
01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:45,240
Speaker 2: like not anybody's like not my idea of joy, and

1512
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:47,920
Speaker 2: don't I don't think it's Stepf's either. And through the

1513
01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:51,000
Speaker 2: research I read, and through spending time with his trainer

1514
01:12:51,040 --> 01:12:54,519
Speaker 2: who designed this set of routines that had really elevated

1515
01:12:54,560 --> 01:12:58,479
Speaker 2: his game, I realized that deliberate play is a huge

1516
01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:00,679
Speaker 2: part of practice and we don't give it enough credit.

1517
01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:03,960
Speaker 2: That you know, if your Steph, you play a game

1518
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:05,840
Speaker 2: to see how many baskets you can make it in a

1519
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:07,920
Speaker 2: minute and a half, and then you've got a target

1520
01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:10,519
Speaker 2: to shoot for and you're competing against yourself or you're

1521
01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:13,000
Speaker 2: competing against a clock, and all of a sudden, that

1522
01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:17,760
Speaker 2: supercharges your motivation, especially in the summer when nobody's you know,

1523
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:20,360
Speaker 2: when you're not actually playing basketball games that really count.

1524
01:13:21,240 --> 01:13:23,479
Speaker 2: And I looked at that and thought, why do we

1525
01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:25,960
Speaker 2: have to turn the daily grind into such a grind? Like, yes,

1526
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:28,040
Speaker 2: there are times when we all have to push ourselves,

1527
01:13:28,400 --> 01:13:31,559
Speaker 2: but pushing yourself day after day is not a sustainable routine.

1528
01:13:32,040 --> 01:13:33,360
Speaker 2: And what we want to do is try to figure

1529
01:13:33,360 --> 01:13:36,280
Speaker 2: out how to redesign practice and skill development so that

1530
01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:38,919
Speaker 2: there are you could break skills down into these enjoyable

1531
01:13:38,920 --> 01:13:42,599
Speaker 2: pieces and then make them more playful. You mentioned Dan Coyle.

1532
01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:45,519
Speaker 2: I love the Culture Code, and one of my favorite

1533
01:13:45,560 --> 01:13:47,799
Speaker 2: ideas that he wrote about was the difference between shallow

1534
01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:51,120
Speaker 2: fun and deep fund. I think shallow fun is gamification.

1535
01:13:51,640 --> 01:13:54,719
Speaker 2: It's tricking people into enjoying practice even though they don't

1536
01:13:54,720 --> 01:13:57,080
Speaker 2: really like it, because there's a carrot that's being dangled

1537
01:13:57,120 --> 01:13:59,000
Speaker 2: at the end. I think the deep fund is about

1538
01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:01,200
Speaker 2: saying we want to actually take the process of learning

1539
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:04,360
Speaker 2: itself and make it enjoyable. And so, you know, the

1540
01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:07,200
Speaker 2: stuff example is a great one, but it's easy to

1541
01:14:07,200 --> 01:14:11,600
Speaker 2: think about that in basketball. Evelyn Glenny are percussionist saying like,

1542
01:14:11,720 --> 01:14:16,160
Speaker 2: let me figure out if I could harmonize bach on

1543
01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:19,360
Speaker 2: a snare drum, Like, what a cool way to make

1544
01:14:19,479 --> 01:14:23,680
Speaker 2: learning percussion playful. And I think that that was a

1545
01:14:23,680 --> 01:14:25,800
Speaker 2: big aha for me. I think that I had come

1546
01:14:25,840 --> 01:14:28,560
Speaker 2: to see play as a reward for finishing my to

1547
01:14:28,600 --> 01:14:31,759
Speaker 2: do list and mastering a skill, and now I realize

1548
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:33,400
Speaker 2: it's got to be on the to do list and

1549
01:14:33,439 --> 01:14:35,360
Speaker 2: it's got to be part of learning a skill.

1550
01:14:35,320 --> 01:14:38,599
Speaker 1: That resonates so strongly as well. Again, it's like, yeah,

1551
01:14:38,600 --> 01:14:42,680
Speaker 1: the process has to be fun, meaningful and fulfilling in

1552
01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:46,080
Speaker 1: and of itself, not just a reward. Trying to think

1553
01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:48,320
Speaker 1: about activity that I've done that with that just felt

1554
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:50,280
Speaker 1: impossible to do it with have you? Have you? What

1555
01:14:50,560 --> 01:14:52,360
Speaker 1: was the thought experiment that you did there with?

1556
01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:55,439
Speaker 2: Well? I was wondering, Yeah, this had to. I feel

1557
01:14:55,439 --> 01:14:59,479
Speaker 2: like monks are often misunderstood like a complete denial of

1558
01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:03,640
Speaker 2: any earthly joy. Yes, And I don't see how a

1559
01:15:03,720 --> 01:15:06,439
Speaker 2: human could ever function in that environment. So I guess

1560
01:15:06,439 --> 01:15:08,080
Speaker 2: the question is you had to do a lot of

1561
01:15:08,080 --> 01:15:11,920
Speaker 2: hard stuff as a monk, especially I imagine in training,

1562
01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:14,120
Speaker 2: like how did you make that playful?

1563
01:15:14,400 --> 01:15:17,280
Speaker 1: You made it playful by laughing at yourself like it

1564
01:15:17,320 --> 01:15:21,559
Speaker 1: was right. So the thing that came to mind was

1565
01:15:21,680 --> 01:15:24,080
Speaker 1: often we'd walk down a path and we'd be asked

1566
01:15:24,120 --> 01:15:27,720
Speaker 1: to find a new stone, and the goal was to

1567
01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:30,400
Speaker 1: find something and be really present with it and you know,

1568
01:15:30,479 --> 01:15:33,360
Speaker 1: be aware of it. Its colors, it's texture, it's shape.

1569
01:15:33,560 --> 01:15:35,880
Speaker 1: Everything you'd want to practice through a mindfulness practice, And

1570
01:15:35,920 --> 01:15:39,040
Speaker 1: what the mind would do is I'd find a stone

1571
01:15:39,040 --> 01:15:41,400
Speaker 1: for today, and I'd find a stone for tomorrow so

1572
01:15:41,439 --> 01:15:43,679
Speaker 1: that I didn't have to do the same activity tomorrow.

1573
01:15:43,920 --> 01:15:46,360
Speaker 1: Because we want to make things easier mentally, and we're

1574
01:15:46,360 --> 01:15:48,880
Speaker 1: always trying to cheat the system or you know, break

1575
01:15:48,960 --> 01:15:51,200
Speaker 1: the game. So my mind would do that very naturally.

1576
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:53,200
Speaker 1: I'd find two stones of all right, I saw that

1577
01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:55,160
Speaker 1: one where that is behind that tree to today, I'll

1578
01:15:55,200 --> 01:15:57,720
Speaker 1: pick this one tomorrow, found one anyway, and then we'd

1579
01:15:57,760 --> 01:15:59,320
Speaker 1: get to the next day and the teacher would say,

1580
01:15:59,320 --> 01:16:01,280
Speaker 1: all right, today, we'd to find a petal like and

1581
01:16:01,479 --> 01:16:03,679
Speaker 1: they're just switched it up on you, and you'd laugh

1582
01:16:03,720 --> 01:16:06,280
Speaker 1: at your own mind, like you'd find it hilarious that

1583
01:16:06,640 --> 01:16:09,000
Speaker 1: your mind was trying to gain the system. But the

1584
01:16:09,080 --> 01:16:12,880
Speaker 1: monks are too, you know, already one step ahead of you.

1585
01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:15,960
Speaker 1: They already know that built it exactly. And so I

1586
01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:19,320
Speaker 1: think things like that where learning to laugh at yourself

1587
01:16:19,360 --> 01:16:22,040
Speaker 1: brought play. When you saw the monkey mind, as you

1588
01:16:22,080 --> 01:16:24,720
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, you laughed at it. You didn't you went

1589
01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:27,200
Speaker 1: harsh on yourself. You didn't if you saw a monkey.

1590
01:16:27,280 --> 01:16:30,880
Speaker 1: And I've seen monkeys do this in India, steal people's sunglasses,

1591
01:16:31,640 --> 01:16:34,960
Speaker 1: cut bags if you're holding it to grab fruit. Yeah,

1592
01:16:35,040 --> 01:16:39,920
Speaker 1: dieco stealing. I've seen them steal credit cards, like out

1593
01:16:39,960 --> 01:16:42,599
Speaker 1: of people's hands if they're paying for something. You don't

1594
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:45,120
Speaker 1: look at it and go what an idiot? Like what's

1595
01:16:45,120 --> 01:16:48,000
Speaker 1: wrong with you? You just think, oh, monkeys and you just laugh.

1596
01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:50,880
Speaker 1: And that's partly what the mind is like, Like it's

1597
01:16:51,120 --> 01:16:54,640
Speaker 1: it's funny to watch the flawed mind, uh and not

1598
01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:57,880
Speaker 1: take it so seriously and recognize that it's just how

1599
01:16:57,920 --> 01:16:59,759
Speaker 1: it's built and how it's how it acts.

1600
01:17:00,080 --> 01:17:03,439
Speaker 2: I like that a lot. Yeah, Yeah, I mean I

1601
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:06,160
Speaker 2: think the idea of you know, of taking your your

1602
01:17:06,320 --> 01:17:09,120
Speaker 2: goals and your growth seriously, but not yourself and your

1603
01:17:09,120 --> 01:17:12,200
Speaker 2: ego that seriously is obviously powerful there. It also sounds

1604
01:17:12,240 --> 01:17:15,280
Speaker 2: like your teachers really appreciated the importance of novelty and variety,

1605
01:17:15,360 --> 01:17:17,640
Speaker 2: absolutely saying all right, like we got to switch up

1606
01:17:17,680 --> 01:17:21,120
Speaker 2: stones for pedals just to keep making this interesting and

1607
01:17:21,520 --> 01:17:23,160
Speaker 2: make sure you don't lose your curiosity.

1608
01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:26,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and just recognizing that you were going to you know,

1609
01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:27,640
Speaker 1: I remember saying to one of my teachers one so

1610
01:17:27,680 --> 01:17:29,679
Speaker 1: I was like, I was like, oh, you know, I'm

1611
01:17:29,720 --> 01:17:31,960
Speaker 1: just really struggling with my ego. I don't think it's

1612
01:17:31,960 --> 01:17:34,040
Speaker 1: ever going to go away. It's so big, it's so

1613
01:17:34,120 --> 01:17:35,960
Speaker 1: hard to deal with. I see it come up in

1614
01:17:36,000 --> 01:17:39,240
Speaker 1: so many scenarios and they just be like relaxed, just

1615
01:17:39,360 --> 01:17:41,160
Speaker 1: you know, it's okay, like your ego wi always be there.

1616
01:17:41,200 --> 01:17:43,679
Speaker 1: Just do your service. Like it wasn't seen with as

1617
01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:47,360
Speaker 1: much like kind of pain and stress because they understood

1618
01:17:47,360 --> 01:17:49,400
Speaker 1: it's hard. They get that, like they know what the

1619
01:17:49,439 --> 01:17:51,680
Speaker 1: mind is going to do, and so why would they

1620
01:17:51,800 --> 01:17:55,760
Speaker 1: react to it with this like very serious and kind

1621
01:17:55,800 --> 01:17:58,920
Speaker 1: of imprisoned undertone rather than like, yeah, it's going to

1622
01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:02,040
Speaker 1: be there, just do it. I like that idea of

1623
01:18:02,080 --> 01:18:04,040
Speaker 1: just just do it anyway. It's going to be there,

1624
01:18:04,280 --> 01:18:06,720
Speaker 1: do it anyway, like okay. So you might feel you

1625
01:18:06,720 --> 01:18:08,719
Speaker 1: have too much of an ego to give a talk,

1626
01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:11,280
Speaker 1: do it anyway and be aware of it. Right, be

1627
01:18:11,360 --> 01:18:14,080
Speaker 1: aware of something and do it anyway is far better

1628
01:18:14,200 --> 01:18:17,120
Speaker 1: than wait till you overcome your ego to do something

1629
01:18:17,360 --> 01:18:19,840
Speaker 1: like that, you'll be waiting for the rest of your life.

1630
01:18:19,840 --> 01:18:22,000
Speaker 1: It will never disappear, and that's just ego could be

1631
01:18:22,040 --> 01:18:25,439
Speaker 1: anything obviously, like envy or any of the things you mentioned.

1632
01:18:25,439 --> 01:18:28,040
Speaker 2: I don't know that it's realistic to expect it to disappear. Altogether.

1633
01:18:28,320 --> 01:18:30,000
Speaker 2: I think what you want is not too me. You

1634
01:18:30,040 --> 01:18:32,479
Speaker 2: wanted to be in the rear view mirror so that

1635
01:18:32,680 --> 01:18:35,439
Speaker 2: it's not your primary focus, but you're you're checking in

1636
01:18:35,479 --> 01:18:36,559
Speaker 2: on it every once in a while.

1637
01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:39,960
Speaker 1: Exactly, Adam. There are so many things in Hidden Potential.

1638
01:18:39,960 --> 01:18:41,320
Speaker 1: We could talk for hours and hours, and I don't.

1639
01:18:41,360 --> 01:18:43,120
Speaker 1: I want people to actually read the book. I want

1640
01:18:43,120 --> 01:18:44,240
Speaker 1: to be able to pick it up. I want you

1641
01:18:44,280 --> 01:18:46,240
Speaker 1: to go and grab a copy of Hidden Potential. The

1642
01:18:46,320 --> 01:18:49,040
Speaker 1: Science of Achieving Greater Things. As we've talked about today,

1643
01:18:49,320 --> 01:18:51,080
Speaker 1: there's such a need for progress, there's such a need

1644
01:18:51,160 --> 01:18:53,880
Speaker 1: for growth. I think this book breaks it down, makes

1645
01:18:53,920 --> 01:18:56,200
Speaker 1: it simple in a way that I love and I admire.

1646
01:18:56,240 --> 01:18:58,080
Speaker 1: But on top of all of that, it's packed with

1647
01:18:58,560 --> 01:19:01,920
Speaker 1: great stories, case studies, science and research to back it

1648
01:19:01,960 --> 01:19:05,040
Speaker 1: all up. And in Adam's signature style of making it fun,

1649
01:19:05,800 --> 01:19:08,040
Speaker 1: that the natural humor that always comes through. But thank

1650
01:19:08,080 --> 01:19:09,840
Speaker 1: you for doing this, And I wanted to ask you them.

1651
01:19:09,880 --> 01:19:12,000
Speaker 1: Is there anything you haven't shared either from the book

1652
01:19:12,000 --> 01:19:13,720
Speaker 1: and that's come in your mind and heart that you're like, Yeah,

1653
01:19:13,720 --> 01:19:15,800
Speaker 1: I really want people to know this or share this,

1654
01:19:15,840 --> 01:19:17,120
Speaker 1: and they may not be, but I want to give

1655
01:19:17,120 --> 01:19:17,559
Speaker 1: you the flow.

1656
01:19:18,320 --> 01:19:22,599
Speaker 2: That's well, you're as always too kind. No, I mean,

1657
01:19:23,240 --> 01:19:25,200
Speaker 2: the only thing is I'm second guessing, like, was that

1658
01:19:25,240 --> 01:19:26,920
Speaker 2: the most surprising thing? Should there have been a more

1659
01:19:26,960 --> 01:19:31,559
Speaker 2: surprising thing? I am right now failing my imperfectionist tests.

1660
01:19:32,280 --> 01:19:35,040
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter which one I picked, because no one

1661
01:19:35,160 --> 01:19:39,519
Speaker 2: knows what the alternatives were, but I am curious. So

1662
01:19:39,720 --> 01:19:42,599
Speaker 2: we talked about deliberate play being you know, potentially as

1663
01:19:42,640 --> 01:19:46,040
Speaker 2: important or more important than deliberate practice for growth. The

1664
01:19:46,080 --> 01:19:47,960
Speaker 2: other two that I was just starting to think about,

1665
01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:50,800
Speaker 2: where that when you get stuck, you often have to

1666
01:19:50,840 --> 01:19:53,880
Speaker 2: move back to move forward. That before people leap in

1667
01:19:53,920 --> 01:19:56,080
Speaker 2: a scale, they have to dip. That was not ha

1668
01:19:56,240 --> 01:19:57,439
Speaker 2: that I did not have before.

1669
01:19:57,960 --> 01:20:00,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's better you're doing about climbing the mountain, the

1670
01:20:00,160 --> 01:20:02,799
Speaker 1: idea of like, yeah, like that it's better if you're stuck,

1671
01:20:02,880 --> 01:20:05,519
Speaker 1: not just to stand there, but to walk backwards to

1672
01:20:05,640 --> 01:20:06,960
Speaker 1: kind of kind of around.

1673
01:20:07,120 --> 01:20:09,080
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yeah, a better method.

1674
01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:11,840
Speaker 1: Actually, most of us don't move backwards to move forwards.

1675
01:20:11,880 --> 01:20:15,080
Speaker 1: We've remained stuck because we're too embarrassed to move backwards,

1676
01:20:15,200 --> 01:20:18,600
Speaker 1: or we feel too like we've reached somewhere to move backwards,

1677
01:20:18,640 --> 01:20:20,400
Speaker 1: like there's a comfort.

1678
01:20:20,040 --> 01:20:21,840
Speaker 2: I don't want to give up the games that I met.

1679
01:20:21,960 --> 01:20:23,920
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, that's exactly, And so why.

1680
01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:25,720
Speaker 2: When I start over when I've already put so much

1681
01:20:25,760 --> 01:20:27,800
Speaker 2: time into getting where I got.

1682
01:20:28,120 --> 01:20:31,439
Speaker 1: That sun cost bias is that was huge for me.

1683
01:20:31,479 --> 01:20:34,280
Speaker 1: I remember learning about that in like a level economics,

1684
01:20:34,320 --> 01:20:37,160
Speaker 1: like eighteen years seventeen, eighteen years old, and thinking, what

1685
01:20:37,200 --> 01:20:39,760
Speaker 1: a great concept to understand that. And I kind of

1686
01:20:39,800 --> 01:20:41,559
Speaker 1: gave that up very naturally. But I saw that as

1687
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:44,640
Speaker 1: I grow older, people who'd studied something, especially something I

1688
01:20:44,680 --> 01:20:47,680
Speaker 1: had friends who would become lawyers or doctors, but then

1689
01:20:47,840 --> 01:20:50,120
Speaker 1: didn't enjoy it or didn't see that as their path

1690
01:20:50,320 --> 01:20:53,840
Speaker 1: directly even and having to pivot from that was so

1691
01:20:54,000 --> 01:20:57,080
Speaker 1: hard because it worked so hard to achieve something that

1692
01:20:57,160 --> 01:20:58,680
Speaker 1: is rare and hard and difficult.

1693
01:20:58,960 --> 01:21:01,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the things I would like to remind

1694
01:21:01,200 --> 01:21:03,479
Speaker 2: my students of when they, like they come to office

1695
01:21:03,520 --> 01:21:05,640
Speaker 2: hours and they're in tunnel vision, like I have to

1696
01:21:05,720 --> 01:21:08,640
Speaker 2: do the prescribed thing, like my parents want me to

1697
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:10,439
Speaker 2: be a doctor, or everyone in my family went to

1698
01:21:10,520 --> 01:21:13,280
Speaker 2: law school. I always want to say to them, listen,

1699
01:21:13,840 --> 01:21:15,680
Speaker 2: I understand that you're already down this path, like you've

1700
01:21:15,680 --> 01:21:18,320
Speaker 2: done the pre med thing, or you're already, Like, you know,

1701
01:21:18,400 --> 01:21:22,160
Speaker 2: you're already in the program, But what's worse realizing that

1702
01:21:22,200 --> 01:21:24,600
Speaker 2: you wasted the last two years are going on to

1703
01:21:24,640 --> 01:21:28,720
Speaker 2: waste the next twenty. It's not a hard calculus. And

1704
01:21:28,760 --> 01:21:31,680
Speaker 2: so I think maybe the antidote to sun costs is

1705
01:21:31,720 --> 01:21:35,000
Speaker 2: opportunity cost to say, yeah, you know what, you have

1706
01:21:35,160 --> 01:21:39,400
Speaker 2: already invested a whole bunch in this, But think about

1707
01:21:39,439 --> 01:21:42,080
Speaker 2: all the growth and all the joy that you're giving

1708
01:21:42,160 --> 01:21:44,280
Speaker 2: up on if you don't shift gears.

1709
01:21:44,680 --> 01:21:46,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think. I mean I think about that

1710
01:21:46,479 --> 01:21:48,040
Speaker 1: all the time in my own life. And it's hard

1711
01:21:48,080 --> 01:21:50,960
Speaker 1: because you never know it then. And it's the old

1712
01:21:50,960 --> 01:21:53,880
Speaker 1: Steve Jobs quote of you can't connect the dots moving forwards,

1713
01:21:53,880 --> 01:21:56,400
Speaker 1: your only backward. Yeah, only backwards. And it's hard to

1714
01:21:56,479 --> 01:22:00,160
Speaker 1: remind people almost as their future self. And I I

1715
01:22:00,160 --> 01:22:02,000
Speaker 1: think that is the activity. That's what I did. I

1716
01:22:02,920 --> 01:22:05,800
Speaker 1: fast forwarded when I was working in the corporate world.

1717
01:22:05,800 --> 01:22:09,160
Speaker 1: I fast forwarded twenty years and I asked myself, would

1718
01:22:09,160 --> 01:22:11,080
Speaker 1: I be happy doing what I see other people doing

1719
01:22:11,080 --> 01:22:12,800
Speaker 1: twenty years ahead of me? And the answer was no.

1720
01:22:13,520 --> 01:22:15,360
Speaker 1: And so I was like, well, then anything will be

1721
01:22:15,360 --> 01:22:18,400
Speaker 1: better than this, because if the answer is no, and

1722
01:22:18,400 --> 01:22:20,400
Speaker 1: It's not that they had bad jobs so they weren't happy.

1723
01:22:20,479 --> 01:22:23,000
Speaker 1: It's that I wouldn't be happy doing what they were

1724
01:22:23,000 --> 01:22:25,439
Speaker 1: doing twenty years from then, and so if you're not,

1725
01:22:25,520 --> 01:22:28,439
Speaker 1: then you can't keep following the same path. Adam, I

1726
01:22:28,479 --> 01:22:30,200
Speaker 1: actually have two more questions from you that I just

1727
01:22:30,240 --> 01:22:32,240
Speaker 1: saw my notes that I actually don't want to miss

1728
01:22:32,280 --> 01:22:36,719
Speaker 1: asking these to you. This comes from part three, systems

1729
01:22:36,720 --> 01:22:40,080
Speaker 1: of Opportunity, Opening Doors and Windows, and I are these

1730
01:22:40,080 --> 01:22:43,400
Speaker 1: two questions that I think are really interesting. We talked

1731
01:22:43,400 --> 01:22:46,559
Speaker 1: about certain challenges of our school system and what we

1732
01:22:46,600 --> 01:22:48,920
Speaker 1: find wrong, but this was the interesting part for me.

1733
01:22:48,960 --> 01:22:50,840
Speaker 1: Do you believe children should be able to choose what

1734
01:22:50,880 --> 01:22:54,040
Speaker 1: they study? I think it's a really fascinating concept. One

1735
01:22:54,080 --> 01:22:58,439
Speaker 1: of my friends runs schools where kids do get to choose.

1736
01:22:59,040 --> 01:23:03,559
Speaker 1: It's private, and I'm always fascinated by this idea of

1737
01:23:03,840 --> 01:23:06,360
Speaker 1: we've gone from living in a world that kids had

1738
01:23:06,360 --> 01:23:09,120
Speaker 1: no choice, we naturally swing to the other side of

1739
01:23:09,160 --> 01:23:11,200
Speaker 1: the pendulum where we want to give kids all choice.

1740
01:23:11,520 --> 01:23:12,360
Speaker 1: What did you discover?

1741
01:23:12,840 --> 01:23:16,120
Speaker 2: I think this is really complicated. So the research on

1742
01:23:16,200 --> 01:23:18,240
Speaker 2: the paradox of choice suggests that there is such a

1743
01:23:18,280 --> 01:23:20,760
Speaker 2: thing as too much choice. First of all, there's a

1744
01:23:20,800 --> 01:23:23,920
Speaker 2: lot of debate about how pervasive that is. It's much

1745
01:23:23,920 --> 01:23:27,000
Speaker 2: worse to have no choice than too much, much worse.

1746
01:23:28,040 --> 01:23:30,040
Speaker 2: So it's easier to manage the problem of too many

1747
01:23:30,040 --> 01:23:32,639
Speaker 2: options than it is to create freedom where it's absent.

1748
01:23:32,800 --> 01:23:36,200
Speaker 2: I think that's clear. The second thing is we can

1749
01:23:36,200 --> 01:23:39,000
Speaker 2: think about bundling and sort of bucketing choices in a

1750
01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:42,240
Speaker 2: way that maybe gets the best of both worlds. So

1751
01:23:43,000 --> 01:23:46,000
Speaker 2: I think it's potentially helpful for students to have choices

1752
01:23:46,040 --> 01:23:50,439
Speaker 2: within constraints. For example, so you ask, if you're an

1753
01:23:50,479 --> 01:23:54,000
Speaker 2: elementary school teacher, you ask kids to read thirty minutes

1754
01:23:54,000 --> 01:23:56,200
Speaker 2: a night, but they get to pick the book. I

1755
01:23:56,240 --> 01:23:58,200
Speaker 2: think that's the kind of choice we're looking for early on.

1756
01:23:58,640 --> 01:24:02,000
Speaker 2: I think later, probably in high school, every kid should

1757
01:24:02,120 --> 01:24:05,280
Speaker 2: take some math, but I don't think everyone needs to

1758
01:24:05,320 --> 01:24:08,960
Speaker 2: take trig Trigonometry has never been useful in my life.

1759
01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:11,439
Speaker 2: In a heartbeat, I would throw out the Trigg curriculum

1760
01:24:11,479 --> 01:24:14,360
Speaker 2: and replace it with statistics, which I think actually is

1761
01:24:14,479 --> 01:24:16,400
Speaker 2: useful for how people think and what they do in

1762
01:24:16,400 --> 01:24:16,679
Speaker 2: the world.

1763
01:24:16,760 --> 01:24:19,639
Speaker 1: But not everyone feels no cognitive benefits of doing Triggy.

1764
01:24:19,720 --> 01:24:21,679
Speaker 1: They're like, oh, they know, because I often think about

1765
01:24:21,680 --> 01:24:24,240
Speaker 1: things not being as literal and think, oh wait, is

1766
01:24:24,280 --> 01:24:26,759
Speaker 1: my brain developing by thinking in that ways.

1767
01:24:27,200 --> 01:24:29,760
Speaker 2: I have never seen a randomized controlled experiment saying that

1768
01:24:29,880 --> 01:24:33,000
Speaker 2: learning trigonometry will teach you a set of thinking skills

1769
01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:34,840
Speaker 2: that it's invaluable. Like, I don't think there's anything about

1770
01:24:34,840 --> 01:24:37,120
Speaker 2: sign and cosign that you would get that you can't

1771
01:24:37,120 --> 01:24:40,080
Speaker 2: get through geometry. Would be my hunch as a psychologists,

1772
01:24:40,080 --> 01:24:42,559
Speaker 2: But I have not done that experiment or that series

1773
01:24:42,600 --> 01:24:45,000
Speaker 2: of experiments I think. But what I would say is

1774
01:24:45,000 --> 01:24:46,840
Speaker 2: like within I mean, colleges are much better at this

1775
01:24:46,960 --> 01:24:48,840
Speaker 2: right saying there's a math requirement, but we give you

1776
01:24:48,880 --> 01:24:51,000
Speaker 2: a menu of options and you can choose within that.

1777
01:24:51,960 --> 01:24:54,120
Speaker 2: Nobody wants to go to a restaurant and have a

1778
01:24:54,160 --> 01:24:57,160
Speaker 2: menu with a thousand options, but if they kind of

1779
01:24:57,200 --> 01:24:59,040
Speaker 2: know what they like, they can say I can look

1780
01:24:59,040 --> 01:25:01,559
Speaker 2: at that category, I can choose within it, And I

1781
01:25:01,560 --> 01:25:03,600
Speaker 2: think that's where I would want choice to land. For

1782
01:25:04,400 --> 01:25:05,519
Speaker 2: kids at different levels.

1783
01:25:05,439 --> 01:25:07,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so hard to you know, hidden potential as

1784
01:25:07,920 --> 01:25:10,759
Speaker 1: a kid and as we grow is so difficult because

1785
01:25:11,600 --> 01:25:13,519
Speaker 1: if I was asked what I liked growing up now,

1786
01:25:13,560 --> 01:25:15,639
Speaker 1: I can easily say that I think I was naturally

1787
01:25:15,720 --> 01:25:20,559
Speaker 1: drawn towards the arts and design and philosophy, and I

1788
01:25:20,600 --> 01:25:22,639
Speaker 1: can see it even more clearly now, but it would

1789
01:25:22,640 --> 01:25:26,120
Speaker 1: have been really hard for someone I don't know. How

1790
01:25:26,160 --> 01:25:29,000
Speaker 1: would you be better at spotting hidden potential in schools

1791
01:25:29,040 --> 01:25:31,840
Speaker 1: and in young people earlier on, so that we can

1792
01:25:31,920 --> 01:25:34,880
Speaker 1: kind of hopefully better guide and coach people as opposed

1793
01:25:34,920 --> 01:25:38,559
Speaker 1: to have them become pre meds or complete a career

1794
01:25:38,560 --> 01:25:39,559
Speaker 1: and then having to pivot.

1795
01:25:39,920 --> 01:25:42,559
Speaker 2: Well, I think the person who's best suited to see

1796
01:25:42,600 --> 01:25:45,439
Speaker 2: your hidden potential is often the one who knows you best.

1797
01:25:46,200 --> 01:25:48,360
Speaker 2: And I don't think we give teachers enough opportunity to

1798
01:25:48,360 --> 01:25:51,920
Speaker 2: get to know kids. I love the research and looping

1799
01:25:51,920 --> 01:25:54,800
Speaker 2: that I wrote about in the chapter on what we

1800
01:25:54,840 --> 01:25:57,880
Speaker 2: can learn from countries like Finland and Estonia, But even

1801
01:25:57,920 --> 01:26:00,959
Speaker 2: here in the US there's strong ev e it's from

1802
01:26:01,320 --> 01:26:04,200
Speaker 2: multiple states with millions of students in elementary and middle

1803
01:26:04,240 --> 01:26:06,720
Speaker 2: school that if they just happened to have the same

1804
01:26:06,760 --> 01:26:08,840
Speaker 2: teacher for two years in a row, they achieve more

1805
01:26:08,880 --> 01:26:12,720
Speaker 2: gains in math and rating, which is remarkable. And I

1806
01:26:12,800 --> 01:26:15,320
Speaker 2: know there are tons of parents who are afraid of

1807
01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:18,519
Speaker 2: this idea, like what if my kid gets stuck with

1808
01:26:18,560 --> 01:26:21,840
Speaker 2: Professor Snape for two years instead of one that's the

1809
01:26:21,920 --> 01:26:24,679
Speaker 2: end of the world. It turns out that not only

1810
01:26:24,800 --> 01:26:26,679
Speaker 2: is it good for kids to have the same teacher

1811
01:26:26,760 --> 01:26:29,760
Speaker 2: for multiple years, but that when kids are struggling and

1812
01:26:29,800 --> 01:26:33,120
Speaker 2: teachers are struggling, they actually benefit more from the extended relationship.

1813
01:26:33,200 --> 01:26:34,960
Speaker 2: And I don't think it's hard to unpack why this is.

1814
01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:37,360
Speaker 2: I think when you know, when a teacher moves up

1815
01:26:37,400 --> 01:26:40,120
Speaker 2: with a student, they don't lose all this information in

1816
01:26:40,160 --> 01:26:43,960
Speaker 2: the handoff from one to the next. They understand the

1817
01:26:43,960 --> 01:26:47,840
Speaker 2: student's strengths and opportunities for growth. They also have seen

1818
01:26:47,880 --> 01:26:50,519
Speaker 2: this the distance that the student has traveled. And so

1819
01:26:50,640 --> 01:26:53,559
Speaker 2: instead of just saying, well, like a new teacher, well

1820
01:26:53,560 --> 01:26:56,760
Speaker 2: that student didn't shine in math, to say, wow, that

1821
01:26:56,880 --> 01:27:01,200
Speaker 2: student was really behind in math and now is right

1822
01:27:01,240 --> 01:27:03,320
Speaker 2: on track with the class. I think there's some hidden

1823
01:27:03,360 --> 01:27:06,600
Speaker 2: potential there. I think every school on earth should let

1824
01:27:06,720 --> 01:27:09,880
Speaker 2: kids have the same teacher for multiple years. And I

1825
01:27:09,880 --> 01:27:11,760
Speaker 2: think it's not a huge effect in the data, but

1826
01:27:11,800 --> 01:27:12,880
Speaker 2: I think it's a meaningful one.

1827
01:27:12,920 --> 01:27:14,320
Speaker 1: It is one of the biggest. I mean, even in

1828
01:27:14,360 --> 01:27:18,519
Speaker 1: spiritual education and teaching and guidance, it's that's the only

1829
01:27:18,560 --> 01:27:22,879
Speaker 1: way it works. Like the practices that my monk teachers

1830
01:27:22,920 --> 01:27:25,839
Speaker 1: created for me were very different from what they created

1831
01:27:25,960 --> 01:27:29,799
Speaker 1: for other students, because it was all about specific learning

1832
01:27:29,800 --> 01:27:32,559
Speaker 1: and specific growth, and so some of the practices I

1833
01:27:32,600 --> 01:27:34,640
Speaker 1: did were not normal for others, and some of the

1834
01:27:34,640 --> 01:27:37,160
Speaker 1: practices other people did were not normal for me, because

1835
01:27:37,160 --> 01:27:39,320
Speaker 1: you trusted that your teacher was getting to know you

1836
01:27:39,360 --> 01:27:42,439
Speaker 1: better and therefore would create plans, whether some of that

1837
01:27:42,479 --> 01:27:46,040
Speaker 1: included travel. For example, I would be asked to travel

1838
01:27:46,240 --> 01:27:49,599
Speaker 1: back more to London to teach while I was a monk,

1839
01:27:50,400 --> 01:27:52,920
Speaker 1: because they saw that that would be a useful skill

1840
01:27:52,960 --> 01:27:54,960
Speaker 1: set for me, that would be a useful experience for

1841
01:27:55,040 --> 01:27:57,080
Speaker 1: me of me going back to the country I was

1842
01:27:57,120 --> 01:27:59,800
Speaker 1: from and having to connect there, and that wasn't part

1843
01:27:59,840 --> 01:28:03,599
Speaker 1: of it everyone else's training. And so I've always been

1844
01:28:03,600 --> 01:28:06,799
Speaker 1: a fan since my training in that way of having

1845
01:28:07,840 --> 01:28:10,400
Speaker 1: the same teacher, and even till this day, I still

1846
01:28:10,439 --> 01:28:12,200
Speaker 1: go back to the same monk teacher who knows me

1847
01:28:12,320 --> 01:28:15,280
Speaker 1: much better and now he has like so much data

1848
01:28:15,360 --> 01:28:16,800
Speaker 1: on me because you've known me since I was eighteen

1849
01:28:16,880 --> 01:28:19,519
Speaker 1: years old, and so he has eighteen years of insight

1850
01:28:19,640 --> 01:28:22,679
Speaker 1: of knowing me, and many of those years living together,

1851
01:28:23,280 --> 01:28:26,400
Speaker 1: where his ability to say, oh my gosh, do you

1852
01:28:26,439 --> 01:28:28,240
Speaker 1: remember when you used to be like this and this

1853
01:28:28,320 --> 01:28:30,200
Speaker 1: challenge would trip you up? And look at you now,

1854
01:28:31,200 --> 01:28:34,040
Speaker 1: and just that context is so useful to hear from

1855
01:28:34,040 --> 01:28:37,160
Speaker 1: a student, like you're saying, like whether it's hey, you know,

1856
01:28:37,200 --> 01:28:39,240
Speaker 1: you were struggling with math last year and last year

1857
01:28:39,280 --> 01:28:41,040
Speaker 1: got C and this year got B. But I actually

1858
01:28:41,120 --> 01:28:44,200
Speaker 1: noticed that, you know whatever, I think it's huge. I

1859
01:28:44,240 --> 01:28:45,320
Speaker 1: actually think it's huge.

1860
01:28:45,680 --> 01:28:48,160
Speaker 2: And that's a great coda to the earlier point about

1861
01:28:48,479 --> 01:28:50,639
Speaker 2: you want a coach to work themselves out of a job,

1862
01:28:51,040 --> 01:28:52,400
Speaker 2: but then you want to be able to go back

1863
01:28:52,439 --> 01:28:55,679
Speaker 2: to that coach at inflection points, yes, for a fresh

1864
01:28:55,720 --> 01:28:59,120
Speaker 2: perspective or for somebody who has that continuity. And so

1865
01:28:59,360 --> 01:29:01,360
Speaker 2: I think over the hope is that you don't rely

1866
01:29:01,439 --> 01:29:03,800
Speaker 2: on that person day to day anymore, of course as

1867
01:29:03,840 --> 01:29:07,320
Speaker 2: a crutch, but they are the person who I guess

1868
01:29:07,360 --> 01:29:08,719
Speaker 2: has the most accurate mirror.

1869
01:29:08,960 --> 01:29:12,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And that's at least from a Eastern philosophy

1870
01:29:12,680 --> 01:29:17,120
Speaker 1: point of view. Education was always meant to be the guru,

1871
01:29:17,280 --> 01:29:18,800
Speaker 1: as it would have been called at the time, and

1872
01:29:19,880 --> 01:29:22,479
Speaker 1: a small enough class for the guru to get to

1873
01:29:22,520 --> 01:29:25,479
Speaker 1: know the class well enough in order to spot hidden

1874
01:29:25,520 --> 01:29:29,280
Speaker 1: potential and their psychophysical nature and their dharma word for

1875
01:29:29,360 --> 01:29:33,200
Speaker 1: purpose in order to ignite that spark deeper, and that

1876
01:29:33,520 --> 01:29:36,920
Speaker 1: requires a lot of training for the guru and an

1877
01:29:36,920 --> 01:29:39,760
Speaker 1: openness from their students as well. But yeah, you're right,

1878
01:29:39,800 --> 01:29:42,680
Speaker 1: it's not just choice as well. It's not just like, hey,

1879
01:29:42,720 --> 01:29:46,479
Speaker 1: choose what you want. Yeah, it's beautiful. Thank you so much, Adam.

1880
01:29:46,560 --> 01:29:48,880
Speaker 1: This has been amazing, Thanks to you. Always a joy.

1881
01:29:48,920 --> 01:29:52,320
Speaker 1: I love how our conversations go from what's wrong with

1882
01:29:52,320 --> 01:29:55,880
Speaker 1: the school system to why we're not idea promoting enough

1883
01:29:55,960 --> 01:29:58,240
Speaker 1: all the way through to you know, how do we

1884
01:29:58,360 --> 01:30:00,559
Speaker 1: choose what we need to work on? What is the weakness?

1885
01:30:00,600 --> 01:30:03,240
Speaker 1: What are imperfections? And again it's all inside this book

1886
01:30:03,280 --> 01:30:06,960
Speaker 1: called Hidden Potential The Science of Achieving Greater Things. Highly

1887
01:30:07,000 --> 01:30:09,000
Speaker 1: recommend it from Adam. Will put the link in the

1888
01:30:09,000 --> 01:30:11,960
Speaker 1: comments and the caption for you to get it. Thank

1889
01:30:11,960 --> 01:30:13,519
Speaker 1: you so much, Adam for doing this. I appreciate you.

1890
01:30:13,600 --> 01:30:16,360
Speaker 2: Thank you Jay. It's been a joy and also a privilege.

1891
01:30:16,400 --> 01:30:21,559
Speaker 2: And I think we've never spoken other than when we're recorded. Yes,

1892
01:30:21,680 --> 01:30:23,559
Speaker 2: so we need to do a little bit more of this.

1893
01:30:23,680 --> 01:30:25,720
Speaker 1: I think I would love that and appreciate it and

1894
01:30:25,760 --> 01:30:28,559
Speaker 1: welcome it. Thank you so thank you. Thanks Ana. If

1895
01:30:28,560 --> 01:30:31,799
Speaker 1: you love this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with doctor

1896
01:30:31,880 --> 01:30:35,120
Speaker 1: Daniel Ahman on how to change your life by changing

1897
01:30:35,160 --> 01:30:39,839
Speaker 1: your brain. If we want a healthy mind, it actually

1898
01:30:40,000 --> 01:30:41,920
Speaker 1: starts with a healthy brain.

1899
01:30:42,160 --> 01:30:45,360
Speaker 2: You know, I've had the blessing or the curse to

1900
01:30:45,520 --> 01:30:45,960
Speaker 2: scam

1901
01:30:46,160 --> 01:30:50,520
Speaker 1: Over one thousand convicted felons and over one hundred murderers,

1902
01:30:50,840 --> 01:30:52,799
Speaker 1: and their brands are very damage