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Speaker 1: Before we get started, folks, it's important to know that

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Speaker 1: this episode contained some strong and explicit language that may

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Speaker 1: not be suitable for all the listeners. So if you've

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Speaker 1: got your kiddos in the crowd, this might not be

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Speaker 1: the episode for them. We thought about censoring it, but

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Speaker 1: we decided we couldn't, not in good faith, because this

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Speaker 1: episode is fundamentally about free speech and language. We hope

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Speaker 1: you enjoy. And one additional note, we had a little

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Speaker 1: bit of technical difficulty at the beginning of this episode,

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Speaker 1: this first part of our two part series. Due to

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Speaker 1: this technical difficulty, Noels Mike is actually not on for

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Speaker 1: the duration of the first episode or for most of it. However,

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Speaker 1: we believe that this interview was important enough and enjoyable

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Speaker 1: enough and fantastic enough that we wanted to salvage it

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Speaker 1: and play it out in full and hopefully I didn't

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Speaker 1: say too much. Yea, welcome to the show, ridiculous historians,

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Speaker 1: we have something very special for you today. Now we

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Speaker 1: get our yucks, and we get our go fas and

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Speaker 1: our chuckles occasionally when you say no, that's how we

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Speaker 1: referred to them. But we have rarely talked about the

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Speaker 1: profound depth of story in the evolution of comedy and

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Speaker 1: comedy is commentary right now, like way way back in

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Speaker 1: the day in Western Europe, even the jester was the

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Speaker 1: only person sometimes who could speak the truth to the king.

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Speaker 1: It's a profession of truth telling, Ben, which is your name,

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Speaker 1: and it's evolved over time and it's become an important

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Speaker 1: source of satire and social commentary. And it's these comedians

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Speaker 1: that are able to say things that are needed to

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Speaker 1: help society, like move forward into help change laws and

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Speaker 1: change perspectives. And that is no exception for the two

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Speaker 1: incredible comics we're talking about today. But we're not doing

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Speaker 1: it alone our way back right, that's right, Well, we

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Speaker 1: are joined, of course, as always with our super producer.

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Speaker 1: We've got Paul deck In filling in for Casey Pegraham today.

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Speaker 1: Make sure you knock out those sound cues, Paul. But

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Speaker 1: we did not come alone into this phrae of comics

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Speaker 1: versus the law. We came with an expert. We would

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Speaker 1: like to introduce you, fellow ridiculous historians, to demand the

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Speaker 1: myth legend. Wayne Fetterman, thank you, thank you for calling

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Speaker 1: me a myth. What does it mean to be a myth?

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Speaker 1: Does that mean you don't exist. That means I don't exist.

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Speaker 1: If you've watched television over the last several ever, yeah,

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Speaker 1: mean you have seen this man and everything from the

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Speaker 1: X Files. I saw you in an episode of Baywatch,

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Speaker 1: which was very impressive. Are Dean Weinstock and Curb Enthusiasm,

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Speaker 1: And you basically extorted Larry David for a meeting Julia

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Speaker 1: Louis Dreyfuss so that he would have a wire removed

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Speaker 1: from his backyard. And the meeting didn't go well, and

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Speaker 1: you refuse to have the wire removed. What is your deal?

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Speaker 1: What was that line? What was that line? And that

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Speaker 1: and that When we say you call that a meeting,

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Speaker 1: I call that one of the most horror just a

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Speaker 1: horrible moment in my life. Yes, that was That was amazing. Also,

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Speaker 1: just before we continue with my credits, because that's gonna

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Speaker 1: be the best part of the show. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: none of those lines are written, so every it's just

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Speaker 1: you have the bullet points of what's supposed to happen

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Speaker 1: in that scene, and we do it, and we do it,

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Speaker 1: and then we'll do it a few times and then

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Speaker 1: Larry will go more of that, less of that, more

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Speaker 1: of this that's funny. And so every line you hear

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Speaker 1: me say on that show is something I wrote at

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Speaker 1: the moment. That's even that's incredible. And I have to ask,

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Speaker 1: is to peep behind the curtain? Is a pedantic number

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Speaker 1: of takes? Or is it? Is it pretty much like

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Speaker 1: let's do it a couple of let's do it one

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Speaker 1: more time. It seems like Larry would be more laid back,

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Speaker 1: like be a little more like a brief emotional direction

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Speaker 1: or something. What's the scoop? Well, that's a good question

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Speaker 1: for that was I mean, this was early on. That's

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Speaker 1: like the sixth episode of the show, so they were

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Speaker 1: still kind of figuring out their technique at that point,

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Speaker 1: and a guy named Larry Charles was directing it. But

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Speaker 1: just basically Larry David like, yeah, that's that's close enough.

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Speaker 1: Let's go on to the next thing. Like it wasn't.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't like, oh, this moment has to be perfect,

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Speaker 1: and so yeah, so it wasn't a lot of texts.

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Speaker 1: Although I will say this, and this is gonna sound

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Speaker 1: like I'm bragging, but I'm not. It's just that Larry

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Speaker 1: sometimes gets like these giggle fits. And so the next

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Speaker 1: time I did the show where I had to hug

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Speaker 1: him and he breaks my glasses and I'm like, no problem,

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Speaker 1: I'll just send you an invoice. That's right. Um. He

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Speaker 1: kept laughing every time because I'm so sincere in my like,

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Speaker 1: I'm the nice guy who's a horrible guy. Is sort

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Speaker 1: of with the angle of that dude, uh that He

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Speaker 1: just kept laughing, laughing, laughing to the point where he

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Speaker 1: had to apologize to the crew for pushing the shoot back.

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Speaker 1: So that's great, I mean, oh my god. I just

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Speaker 1: want to say I wish Larry David was my dad.

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Speaker 1: I've said that many times. I don't know. I didn't

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Speaker 1: have a very good relationship with my dad, so maybe

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Speaker 1: that's being informed by that. But Larry David just strikes

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Speaker 1: me as like the perfect curmudgeon. But he also seems

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Speaker 1: like he'd be pretty cool to work with and pretty

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Speaker 1: easy to get. You want a dad his multimillionaire Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I guess, you know, and and and just makes great observations,

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Speaker 1: you know what. Uh No, I I agree. I would

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Speaker 1: love it if he were your dad, because then I

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Speaker 1: could just come over. But I wouldn't it wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: to be a forever thing. I could leave, but let

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Speaker 1: us let let us continue just a little bit, Wayne

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Speaker 1: with some more of some more of these credentials. Uh,

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Speaker 1: some people may not know that you are a professor

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Speaker 1: at the University of Southern California. Correct, that is correct?

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Speaker 1: I am officially, I mean I'm a professor, that's the

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Speaker 1: right word. But I'm an adjunct professor. Do you know

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Speaker 1: what that means? Does that mean not tenured? Does that

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Speaker 1: mean you don't have an office and all of those things? Correct?

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Speaker 1: Whatever you think? I mean, it's it basically means not

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Speaker 1: a real professors. What it means it means I don't

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Speaker 1: have like a master's or a PhD or something like that.

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Speaker 1: But just are you teaching the history of stand up?

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Speaker 1: Is that your specialty in both the history of stand

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Speaker 1: up and a performance class combined? And it's advanced, it's

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Speaker 1: you have to take another stand up class even to

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Speaker 1: get to Professor Vetterman. Well, yeah, so if we were

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Speaker 1: to enroll, we would have to start start at level one.

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Speaker 1: Got pre rex I have And not only do you

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Speaker 1: teach these classes, you also have a brand new podcast

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Speaker 1: on the Podglomerate network, All the History of stand Up,

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Speaker 1: which is a surprise surprise, is about the history of

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Speaker 1: standard Yeah, it's not a it's not a misdirect. It's

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Speaker 1: not like, oh my god, we're just gonna be talking about,

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Speaker 1: you know, youth culture and um ra monrovia. That's how

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Speaker 1: good I am at ad libbing. I can't quite get

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Speaker 1: a word out. But you never know, we're gonna tap

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Speaker 1: some of your your knowledge on the subject today for

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Speaker 1: this episode. Course, that's why I'm here. Before we continue,

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Speaker 1: I do want to say I specifically enjoyed the episode

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Speaker 1: on the rise of stand up or what we perceive

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Speaker 1: as modern stand up through the Vaudeville era, and thank you, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: thank you. I learned a lot. I'm going to be

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Speaker 1: insufferable at parties for the next few weeks. You want

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Speaker 1: to set the stage a little bit with just like

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Speaker 1: I think that the comics were talking about today obviously

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Speaker 1: benefited from and you mentioned at the top of the show, Ben,

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Speaker 1: the idea of stand up as truth telling and this

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Speaker 1: notion of the vaud what is it called the performance

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Speaker 1: of one performance in one one? Will you talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about that way, like just this conceptslute Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: it's um just so you know, I know you you

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Speaker 1: hold these comedians up as these truth tellers and on

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Speaker 1: the vanguard of social change, and there is an element

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Speaker 1: of comedy that is that there's also a whole another sea,

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Speaker 1: a whole ocean of comedy that isn't that that's just

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Speaker 1: making people laugh, and in a way that's a wonderful experience.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, so I just I know you, I feel

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Speaker 1: like comedians, some kinds get elevated as these truth tellers.

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Speaker 1: Is like they're really just trying to get people to laugh,

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Speaker 1: is there is their main goal? Is their main goal?

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Speaker 1: So no, if you go back to Vault, it's interesting

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Speaker 1: you should you picked up on that episode because we

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Speaker 1: talked about this guy, Frank Fay, that a lot of

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Speaker 1: people look to is the the architect of the modern

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Speaker 1: what we consider the modern stand up. It was kind

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Speaker 1: of like a wise guy, smart guy in a suit,

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Speaker 1: who does you know, no baggy pants, no weird hats,

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Speaker 1: doesn't you know, crazy big tie or anything like that

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Speaker 1: that screams, Hey, I'm a comedian, you know, just a

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Speaker 1: got a sharp talking guy. And from that, this guy's

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Speaker 1: name is Frank Fay. And another time you should do

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Speaker 1: an episode, you guys should do one Frank Fay because

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Speaker 1: he's a really interesting guy because he not only creates this,

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Speaker 1: but is this. He's sort of anti Semitic, and he's

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Speaker 1: he supports the Nazis and it's just a crazy dude.

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Speaker 1: He's very insufferable man. And uh, it's just like that,

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Speaker 1: this guy. I love that. In fact, this is the

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Speaker 1: guy that sort of started the whole thing. It's perfect.

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Speaker 1: It's perfect. So anyway, Vaudeville was family entertainment and the

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Speaker 1: height of audeville, like what today would be getting a

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Speaker 1: Netflix special, was to perform at a theater in New

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Speaker 1: York called the Palace, which was right off Broadway. No, no,

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Speaker 1: it's a little higher than forty eight. And so that

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Speaker 1: was like the goal of every comedian, and Frank Faye

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Speaker 1: was the MC at the Palace. They used to not

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Speaker 1: even have mcs. They used to just put up a

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Speaker 1: placard or like a big card and say this is

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Speaker 1: you know, thinks Mules and then this act would come

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Speaker 1: out and they do it. So he would like in

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Speaker 1: between the acts, he like kibbits with the crowd, and

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Speaker 1: eventually that became his act. And by performing in one

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Speaker 1: usually there was a curtain and in one was the

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Speaker 1: very front of the stage. That meant there was you

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Speaker 1: didn't need anything behind you. So a lot of times

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Speaker 1: comedians were needed because they would be setting up an

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Speaker 1: acrobac act or a contortionist act behind the curtain while

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Speaker 1: the stand up was just doing his his stick. So

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Speaker 1: that was called being in one. And now it means

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Speaker 1: sort of like you are alone out there. It's it's

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Speaker 1: it's a literal and figurative statement, if I'm not mistaken.

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Speaker 1: So that's that makes sense though from from the behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes perspective that you wouldn't want that dead air, right,

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Speaker 1: You would want the right to have something to look at. Yep, yep, exactly.

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Speaker 1: You don't want a big, deep stage behind you when

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Speaker 1: all you really need is it just your voice. And

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Speaker 1: then microphones sort of changed that a little bit, you know,

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Speaker 1: and that was more than nightclub era. And that's when

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Speaker 1: they added something called alcohol to the equation. And is

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Speaker 1: that what is that kind of moved more from vaudeville

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Speaker 1: into like burlesque where becomes less of a family affair.

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Speaker 1: Is that when no burlesque ray and rank concurrent to vaudeville,

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Speaker 1: which was like a lower class entertainment that was kind

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Speaker 1: of looked down upon and mainly men went to burlesque shows,

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Speaker 1: not a lot of women, and it was sort of

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Speaker 1: like there might be a stripper or a you know,

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Speaker 1: a very fan dancer, so you know, like that. And

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Speaker 1: and the comedians in burlesque were way more broad and

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Speaker 1: because you had you know, there was just guys there

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Speaker 1: in the you know, degenerates in the middle of the

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Speaker 1: afternoon watching women. And then it was very hard to

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Speaker 1: do very subtle kind of you know, Jack Benny hyper

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Speaker 1: humor to these guys. So burlesque grand concurrent to vaudeville,

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Speaker 1: but was like considered a low form of entertainment. And

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Speaker 1: when when we were originally talking before doing this episode, uh,

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Speaker 1: we had asked you to share with our listeners some

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Speaker 1: stories about what we would what we would call notorious

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Speaker 1: cases of comedians versus the law. And I'm setting this

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Speaker 1: up now because when we I believe you had said

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Speaker 1: earlier in the history of stand up that the term

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Speaker 1: stand up comic didn't really come about until the late

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Speaker 1: forties maybe or so correct. Somebody is listening to my podcast.

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Speaker 1: This is a miracle. I love it. I literally thought

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Speaker 1: my podcast would be for like I don't know, hundred

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Speaker 1: and eighty people who ridged in the history of this,

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Speaker 1: so um, yeah, they didn't have a term for like

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Speaker 1: when Milton Burrow was doing stand up and we have

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Speaker 1: a clip of Burl at the Winter Garden Theater doing

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Speaker 1: basically stand up jokes. You know, he does a joke

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Speaker 1: about a restaurant that's so expensive they have three waiters

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Speaker 1: for each table. Wanted to give you the check and

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Speaker 1: two to revive you. So, you know, just like a joke,

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Speaker 1: just you know, jokes. And he was doing that stuff

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Speaker 1: before there was even the term stand up, so they

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Speaker 1: called him either monologists or comics or something like that.

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Speaker 1: But then eventually, like kers wanted to know what you

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Speaker 1: were getting, Like they would book a variety show and

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Speaker 1: they would need a singer and you know, maybe a juggler,

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Speaker 1: and then a comic and then go what kind of

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Speaker 1: comedy does he stand up? Does he need music? Does

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Speaker 1: he you know? And so it was a specific kind

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Speaker 1: of comic who just used their voice. I guess one

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Speaker 1: of the big questions we have, like the two Knowle's

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Speaker 1: exploration there of burlesque running concurrently with vaudeville but being

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Speaker 1: considered a lower form of entertainment, where did these stand

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Speaker 1: up comics fit in Were they controversial, were they just

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Speaker 1: something new and strange? Was it a slow evolution or

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Speaker 1: a sudden one. That's a good question. Um, I you know,

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Speaker 1: I think people always you know, I just think it's

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Speaker 1: a human need to want to laugh. Like, especially in

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Speaker 1: a group of people. It's a very exciting, cathartic, you know,

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Speaker 1: elevated moment when you're all laughing at the same time.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you've ever seen a movie called

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Speaker 1: Sullivan's Travels, um, but it's just a great movie about

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Speaker 1: this Broadway producer who, like it, gets burnt out on

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Speaker 1: Hollywood and goes to see what, you know, what is

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Speaker 1: it pretends he's like a bum and and one of

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Speaker 1: the great moments is him just watching these these cartoons

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Speaker 1: with a bunch of itinerant workers and they're all laughing together,

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Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, there's value in this. There's a value.

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Speaker 1: It's a beautiful movie. And uh, I know that's a

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Speaker 1: little sidetrack, but my point fantastic. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's uh it's like, well, I don't know anyway, Joel McCrae,

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Speaker 1: Veronica Lake, I'm gonna name the whole cast people no

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Speaker 1: one's ever heard of um, I'm gonna keep going. So

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Speaker 1: it's I don't know, I I guess you know, there's

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Speaker 1: always been funny, but like you said earlier, there's court

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Speaker 1: gestures and you know even uh, you know, early on

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Speaker 1: in vaudeville there was like funny comedian singer types, which

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Speaker 1: is like an Eddie Cantor or something like that, and

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Speaker 1: then they were just like, oh, people just like the

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Speaker 1: comedy part, and so people specialized in that, and then

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Speaker 1: that became very much more kind of like an opening

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Speaker 1: act for like a singer like I was just listening to,

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Speaker 1: Like George Carlin would open for this singer named Oliver

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Speaker 1: in the sixties, and Woody Allen opened for Barbara streisand

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Speaker 1: and then later for Jim Crocey. So it was like

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Speaker 1: a great way to sort of settle the crowd, get

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Speaker 1: some laughs, and then you know, get the headliner up there,

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Speaker 1: unless it was and eventually the comics became the headline. Well.

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Speaker 1: And it's also like kind of a self sufficient act, right,

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Speaker 1: like you don't really need a whole lot of props

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Speaker 1: or you know, back line or like equipment or anything.

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Speaker 1: It's just a person in their brain and their mouth

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Speaker 1: and acrophone microphone, so that a d That's why musicians

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Speaker 1: like want to be comics. They're like, oh, I don't

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Speaker 1: have to deal with this road crew guy and this

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Speaker 1: dude setting up my guitar and not tuning it right.

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Speaker 1: And like even to be in a band is a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff. Like we just get on an airplane

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Speaker 1: or get in a are and go to the gig

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Speaker 1: and then go back. It's it is. I think it's

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Speaker 1: the simplest, right, there's really I mean, I'm gonna throw

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Speaker 1: that out to you guys. Can you think of anything

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Speaker 1: well you need to bring less physical attributes to the

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Speaker 1: to the act. No, not really. Maybe podcasting, I mean

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Speaker 1: they usually provide the mix for us to We're actually

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Speaker 1: doing our first tour next week, so we'll we'll report

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Speaker 1: back and let's how that goes. But you're going out

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Speaker 1: on the road. I love it. We're hitting the road. Wayne,

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Speaker 1: wish us luck. But listen, let's get let's get to

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Speaker 1: let's get to the let let's get to the headline.

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Speaker 1: So the headline. Alright, sorry, I'm not knowledge. I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: he Professor Federman. Come on, let's take it easier. Um,

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Speaker 1: So we're talking about the term stand up not really

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Speaker 1: coming around until the forties. But around the fifties you

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Speaker 1: got a guy named Lenny Bruce who comes onto the

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Speaker 1: scene and he gets his start um, you know, doing

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Speaker 1: the same thing that a lot of comedians would do,

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Speaker 1: where he would be on what was it the Steve

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Speaker 1: Allen Show. I believe he was on pretty early in

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Speaker 1: his career. Lenny Bruce is a fascinating story because he's

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Speaker 1: he's like this legend in a way because of what

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Speaker 1: he did basically in a like a four or five

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Speaker 1: year period. And I'll explain it to you. He really

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Speaker 1: he he was in the war in the forties. His

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Speaker 1: mom was in show basess, she was kind of a comic.

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Speaker 1: He does a talent show and he gets you know,

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Speaker 1: does a bunch of impressions, and then he's on Broadway

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Speaker 1: Open House and Night and then he's not really on

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Speaker 1: television at all. In for most of the fifties, he's

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Speaker 1: basically remember we're talking about burlesque and strip clubs. He

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Speaker 1: was basically comedian. The worked in strip clubs was his thing,

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Speaker 1: and which was this brutal existence, but he was you know,

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Speaker 1: he fell in love with this stripper named Honey and he, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, he just could kind of develop this act

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Speaker 1: trying to entertain these guys and was just kicking around,

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Speaker 1: couldn't get anything go and try to make these short

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Speaker 1: films and wrote scripts in Hollywood and nothing, couldn't get

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Speaker 1: any traction, really, and then finally the when Mort Saul

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Speaker 1: came along long and opened up stand up to being

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Speaker 1: a little more about commentary, which you guys mentioned earlier.

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Speaker 1: This inspired Lenny Bruce. And also there was a yet

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Speaker 1: sort of a I don't know what's amused is the

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Speaker 1: word I would use named Joe antsis this is famous

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Speaker 1: comedy history who kind of developed Lenny Bruce's jazz talking

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Speaker 1: jive style. I don't know if you've heard his records,

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Speaker 1: but it's sometimes it's hard to even to connect with

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Speaker 1: them because the language is, like, you know, so up

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Speaker 1: tusive times. Ladies and gentlemen, the Balladium Theater, body present

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Speaker 1: Semedica's fastest rise young comedian and Dean of Satire, Mr

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Speaker 1: Frank Dell. Good Evening, ladies and gentlemen, and certainly iced

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Speaker 1: to be here at the most famous theater in the world,

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Speaker 1: the wonderful Palladium Theater. Well, folks, I just got back

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Speaker 1: from lost wages, nava funny thing about working lost wages, folks.

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Speaker 1: The way to make a lot of money there when

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Speaker 1: you get off the plane, walk one into the propeller

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Speaker 1: and then into the motel jokes, the army jokes, the impressions, ten, twelve,

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Speaker 1: fifteen minutes and he's bombing nothing but not left one.

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Speaker 1: Now he goes into the dying jokes about faults. I

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Speaker 1: wasn't born having I'm short dying here ha, a lot

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Speaker 1: of different ways to die, and blah blah blah. Now

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Speaker 1: he starts with putting the audience down. Well, freddie, freddie boy,

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Speaker 1: I see it's a little squares ville, the little squares

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Speaker 1: ville for the first show, the greatest in them all,

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Speaker 1: old baby crack worm. Let's go to show business, heaven.

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Speaker 1: How about it? My show walks off? I guess a

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Speaker 1: little courtesy employs two people. Sounds like citizen King harrible.

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Speaker 1: And again this is this is later in his career.

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Speaker 1: This is not in the fifty one or fIF He

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Speaker 1: only started recording later. And that recording is a perfect

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Speaker 1: example of it. If just this, you know, he would

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Speaker 1: do bits, but he had kind of a hey Man style,

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Speaker 1: and he was very much you know, into amphetamines and

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Speaker 1: pot and you know, he was he had a relationship

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Speaker 1: with with drugs, let's let's put it that way, ultimately

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Speaker 1: killed him. And then uh, then he puts you know,

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Speaker 1: he puts out this album and that came out in

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty nine, and he was known for using dirty

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Speaker 1: words and became what known as a sick comedian. There

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Speaker 1: was a great article in Time magazine about these sick

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Speaker 1: comedians who would do just like one of his jokes

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Speaker 1: would be like, uh, the problem with my marriage was

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Speaker 1: my mother in law because I slept with her too

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Speaker 1: many times or something like, you know, just like we're

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Speaker 1: like people would be like, what is what is he?

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Speaker 1: What did I hear? You know that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: And so, guess what. He starts making fun. One of

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Speaker 1: his big bits is called Religion Incorporated. And he starts

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Speaker 1: doing this bit, and you know a lot of cops

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Speaker 1: are irish, you know at that time, and so and

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Speaker 1: just you know, the d A s and stuff. So

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Speaker 1: he gets arrested in San Francisco and then it becomes

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Speaker 1: known as this comedian who's being censored, and sot of

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Speaker 1: that elevated him a little bit. And then he gets

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Speaker 1: arrested in Chicago at the Gate of Horn and you know,

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Speaker 1: believe it or not, George Carlin is at that show

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Speaker 1: also gets arrested just because he won't show the cops

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Speaker 1: his I d and and Lenny Bridge is like, why

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Speaker 1: did they arrest you because I wouldn't show my idea

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Speaker 1: because you're a schmuck, you know that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: But the big case happened in New York at the

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Speaker 1: cafe Wah wah. I think it's yehause he's like fed

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Speaker 1: up with these puritanical l A cops or southern California cops,

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Speaker 1: which is right. So he thinks New York is gonna

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Speaker 1: be way more progressive. And that's in Greenwich Village, right, yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: this is the scene. You know, Ginsburg's there and Dylan

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Speaker 1: is there, and it's like it's, uh, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: very couldn't be more progressive because I mean outside of

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Speaker 1: maybe Madison, Wisconsin or something, I mean, it is the

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Speaker 1: centerpiece of progressive and so he's like, Okay, I'm this

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Speaker 1: is where I'm going to do it. And of course,

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Speaker 1: you know, the Irish New York cops they arrest him,

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Speaker 1: and that arrest and conviction stayed on his record for

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Speaker 1: his entire life, and it wasn't until I believe two

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Speaker 1: thousand three when Governor Pataki of New York overturned or

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Speaker 1: gave him clemency or whatever. He pardoned him and instruct

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Speaker 1: that from the thing. So it was like he was

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Speaker 1: I know, it sounds impossible to believe that adult. No

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Speaker 1: adult complained. No, there wasn't one patron. I love using

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Speaker 1: that word patron at these clubs. It was like, I

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Speaker 1: can't like they knew the sick humor and Lenny Bruce

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Speaker 1: is what we want to see. This is what we

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Speaker 1: want to hear and to expand our minds a little bit.

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Speaker 1: We might be a f we can handle it. So

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Speaker 1: it was just just try to think of that, you

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Speaker 1: guys of a time not that long ago. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, I was born in fifty nine, so it's

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Speaker 1: not it's in my lifetime. When police would come into

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Speaker 1: an establishment and arrest somebody for using language that's insane.

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Speaker 1: They were also undercover police, is that correct, Like they

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Speaker 1: were there in playing clothes or something. Yes. Sometimes, I

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Speaker 1: mean the one in Chicago is hilarious, and because there's

424
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Speaker 1: a recording of it and you could he's talking about

425
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,919
Speaker 1: the cop. He sees them over there, and then he

426
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 1: says something and then the cop literally says okay, folks

427
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 1: shows over, you know, like the cliche and uh, and

428
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 1: he gets arrested and then they just shut it down. Well,

429
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 1: and here's the thing too, they actually this was on

430
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 1: the book. So in New York when he got arrested,

431
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,160
Speaker 1: it was because of something called Penal Code eleven forty

432
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 1: dash a. And this is this is the language of this.

433
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: It prohibited something they referred to as quote obscene, indecent, immoral,

434
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,880
Speaker 1: and impure dram I assume that means drama, play, exhibition,

435
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 1: and entertainment, which would tend to the corruption of the

436
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 1: morals of youth and others. For you, and then you know,

437
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 1: this is so broad. This is such incredibly broad language,

438
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: the corruption of youth and others. And it's like, who's

439
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 1: asking for this? But it's also it's it's also part

440
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: of the hypocrisy of the American legal system. That's an

441
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: historic thing. It goes to any form of language or

442
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 1: communication like the maple thor photographs yea, or like the

443
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: James Joyce ulysses which went all went to the courts

444
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 1: on the basis of being what pornography and the ultimate

445
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,160
Speaker 1: ruling was I know it when I see it, right, right,

446
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,920
Speaker 1: So this is a very slipper. Now again, I want

447
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: to talk about all of these issues, including motion pictures

448
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: what's going on with them as well. But the point

449
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 1: you're making is youth and others. It was that the

450
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 1: language was that the youth and other Yeah, exactly, the

451
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 1: corruption of the morals of youth and others. So what

452
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,919
Speaker 1: does this even mean? Who's asking for this? Where is

453
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 1: this coming from? What? What are your what are your thoughts?

454
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 1: I will tell you where it's coming from. There used

455
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 1: to be something called community standards, and that was basically saying,

456
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,679
Speaker 1: in this community, we don't want a certain kind of

457
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 1: film here, and we don't want a certain kind of

458
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,239
Speaker 1: entertainment here, and there was it was a lot of

459
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: it was, believe it or not, the Catholic League would

460
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: have their own board which would decide would rate movies

461
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 1: and get the Catholic board didness let your movie come

462
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 1: into your town? It didn't come into your town, and

463
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,639
Speaker 1: that you know, and that's how the politicians state in power,

464
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: and that's how these penal codes, including the one you

465
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 1: just read eleven. What was the number? A. Yeah, I

466
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 1: always think of eleven forty B. But I always get

467
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: that wrong. I always get that wrong. Now that's fair.

468
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 1: I'm not teaching. That's why I'm not at an Ivy

469
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 1: League school right there. So so that's that's going on

470
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: in the United States. Even when I was a KIG,

471
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: there was something called the Catholic League that would like, no,

472
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 1: you can't have this coming, this movie come in here.

473
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 1: So that only changed really in nine eight when they

474
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 1: started the movie rating system. So before then, I don't know.

475
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 1: This is incredible just it's a sidebar, but I think

476
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: it's interesting. It's a few years, maybe eight years after

477
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 1: Lenny Bruce gets arrested. A lot is that, you know,

478
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 1: they put in these rating systems. So now the first

479
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: movie to ever be right to win Best Picture is

480
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 1: a g rated movie, the only one a g rated

481
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 1: movie called Oliver. The next year, sixty nine, an X

482
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 1: rated movie wins Best Picture. What was it? That's um,

483
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 1: you know, John Boyd, everybody's talking midnight, which is it's

484
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 1: now been rerated. It's been rerated. Lenny Bruce in the

485
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 1: movie Lenny So full Circle. It's all one big thing.

486
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 1: It's all. But I'm just saying that sort of opened

487
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 1: up the world for a lot of movie goers, especially

488
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: in small towns in America, because and now they could

489
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: see a movie that the Catholic League didn't deem, you know,

490
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: immoral for this community, these community standards. So anyway, I

491
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 1: just want to give an overall view of like why

492
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: these penal codes were on the books. It just it

493
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: just gave them a legal reason to shut down a

494
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 1: movie or something like that. Oh and it's crazy and

495
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:27,719
Speaker 1: we take all that for granted these days. I mean

496
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: it's so easy to uh not appreciate the fact that

497
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: I can go watch anything I want on Netflix or

498
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 1: you know, man in the in the theater, that I

499
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: can see dirty stuff. Well, people still do slide back

500
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: into moral panics on a cyclical basis here. Oh so,

501
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 1: for example, we will see the same kind of moral

502
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 1: panic of U of rock music polluting the hearts and

503
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: minds of young children because the beat is a little

504
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 1: too Bouncy's right. I mean there was even all that

505
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 1: Tipper Gore stuff with the parental advisory stickers and like

506
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 1: rap music and Marilyn Manson and all that stuff. So

507
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 1: absolutely it seems like that stuff goes in cycles, but

508
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 1: ultimately I feel like as a as a culture, we're

509
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: pretty free still to explore whatever you know, tickles our fancy.

510
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: As far as arts concerned, we are making progress, especially

511
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: like as a country, we're making progress. But what a

512
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,360
Speaker 1: lot of people don't know is that this was a

513
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 1: hard one road and we it was uphill for a

514
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 1: lot of the ways. And that's why we're still talking

515
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 1: about Lenny Bruce. Yeah, that's really more than any comedy

516
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 1: bit he did, any you know, any of those bits

517
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 1: which were wonderful. But I think that's the reason, you know,

518
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: he's number three on the Rolling Stones Greatest Comedians of

519
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 1: All Time or something like that, is that's the reason. Well,

520
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: and there's that rm lyric and the end of the

521
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: world as we know it. Lenny Bruce is not afraid,

522
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: and I think that's a very important way of looking

523
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: at him. He kind of boldly went and boldly did

524
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: not give a fuck about what what what was going

525
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: to happen to him as far as the law was concerned.

526
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: And that's why I think maybe overstated the case at

527
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 1: the top of the show about comedians as truth tellers,

528
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: and maybe it's not something they're intending to do at

529
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 1: the time. Maybe he's just speaking his truth and that's

530
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: because he thinks it's funny. But removed from the time,

531
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: and you know, with his tragic end and all of

532
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: this court case and all these court cases, you can't

533
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: help but think that he was kind of paving the

534
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: way for this kind of free speech and being able

535
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: to say whatever is on your mind and not be

536
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: persecuted for I think that's what I think you encapsulated

537
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: it very well. They're wayne because also he's saying things

538
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: that everybody knows but no one is saying in public.

539
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: You know that the hypocrisy of it all, like like

540
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: we've never heard these words and speaking of words, hey

541
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: seven in particular, right, Holy no, No, this is just

542
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: kind of off to the side for us. But at

543
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: this point in the interview things are really heat. No,

544
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: this is going well too hot. Hot. Mike's only not

545
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: a hot mike on this particular installment because due to

546
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,719
Speaker 1: a technical difficulty, my mike was not properly on, So

547
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: you're hearing my voice through Ben's mike or an adjacent mike.

548
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: But we assure you for part two of this series,

549
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: my mike will be on and we thought this interview

550
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: was fantastic enough that we wanted to preserve it for posterity,

551
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: So thank you for checking this out. This is a

552
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: rare two parter for us. Have we ever done a

553
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: concurrent two party now this is a first for us.

554
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: Then we're very excited and we hope that you tune

555
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: in for the second part of this series, wherein we

556
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: explore the story of another controversial comedian whose case eventually

557
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: went all the way to the Supreme Court. I can't wait.

558
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: In the meantime, we'd like to thank our super producer

559
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: Paul Decant guest super producer Paul decan are super producer

560
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: in spirit, Casey Pegraham, He's always with us with I

561
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: Thank Alex Williams, who composed our theme. We'd like to

562
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: thank Eaves, Jeff cop and Christopher hasiotis our crack team

563
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: of research associates. We of course would like to thank

564
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: Wayne Fetterman, but you'll hear us do that plenty in

565
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: the second episode. Uh and no, you know what, man,

566
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: Thank you, yeah man, thank you did