Speaker 1: On the bel Cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zef in best
Speaker 1: start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Memory is a
Speaker 1: selection of images, some elusive others imprinted indelibly on the brain. Hello,
Speaker 1: and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante.
Speaker 1: My name's jam Lovedes. Caitlin, I thought you werena say
Speaker 1: this summer I killed my podcast co host. I was
Speaker 1: thirty four years old. Oh, that would have been okay,
Speaker 1: just to get things after a really sinister begins that
Speaker 1: you know what, we close enough. Honestly, I would watch
Speaker 1: that movie even if even if I had to die
Speaker 1: at the end. You know, I've in fact, I might
Speaker 1: welcome it. Hi, Jamie us assured that I will never
Speaker 1: kill you. But what if you you know, what if
Speaker 1: in your mind you've set off a chain of events
Speaker 1: that leads to like someone else, Like what if you
Speaker 1: say something to someone and then it gets around to
Speaker 1: so and so, and then Jack O'Brien kills and then
Speaker 1: you're like, it's my fault. But but Jack O'Brien pulled
Speaker 1: the trigger, so sure I would definitely feel responsible and
Speaker 1: guilty about it, but I also don't. I hope that
Speaker 1: I never, like accidentally or on purpose, do anything that
Speaker 1: might like trigger a chain of events that leads to
Speaker 1: your murder. Thank you so much. Ultimately, I do think
Speaker 1: it would be funny if Jacob Bryan murdered me just
Speaker 1: because I'm like, I just don't see it happening, but um,
Speaker 1: it would be. It would be a wild twist in Sherwood.
Speaker 1: That conversation. Um did not entirely pass the back to
Speaker 1: the I think maybe areas of it did. I should
Speaker 1: have said, I should have jacko Brian, you should have said,
Speaker 1: and then it would have been completely above board. Yeah.
Speaker 1: This is the Bechtel Cast. This Caitlin and My podcast
Speaker 1: where we talk about your favorite movies and your least
Speaker 1: favorite movies from an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel
Speaker 1: Test as a jumping off point, which is a media
Speaker 1: metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel. There are different
Speaker 1: variations of the test. Ours is that two people from
Speaker 1: of any marginalized gender have to have names, they have
Speaker 1: to speak to each other and their conversation has to
Speaker 1: be about something other than a man for at least
Speaker 1: a two line exchange of dialogue. Not many movies can
Speaker 1: do it, but I think you're in for a treat today. Yes,
Speaker 1: you are, so with that, I say we introduce our
Speaker 1: guests and get the ball rolling. She is the host
Speaker 1: of the podcast There Are No Girls on the Internet,
Speaker 1: as well as the miniseries Disinformed. It's Bridget Todd. Hi. Hello,
Speaker 1: I'm so excited to be here. Being on this podcast
Speaker 1: has been a little bit of a dream of mine,
Speaker 1: so I'm so happy that it's finally a reality. The
Speaker 1: time is here. We've been trained to make it happen
Speaker 1: for so long, and the stars are finally aligned. And Jamie,
Speaker 1: if Jack O'Brien happens to kill you, I'll always happily
Speaker 1: take your place. I perfect. See there's a greater plot.
Speaker 1: Oh that's you know what. Honestly, in the event of
Speaker 1: my untimely death, please do not avenge me and instead
Speaker 1: just begin to host the Baxtelcast. You can bequeath it
Speaker 1: to me. That's the right word. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll start my will tonight. And just just to make
Speaker 1: sure everything is all set, yeah, is illegal? Exactly exactly?
Speaker 1: Is that? Is that something that would be really funny
Speaker 1: if you could not Funny is not the word, but interesting,
Speaker 1: if you could leave your job to another person. Maybe
Speaker 1: someone's done that. Someone has to have done that, right,
Speaker 1: I tried to. I feel like that's just like rich people,
Speaker 1: dynasties could do that. But it would be funny if
Speaker 1: you're like, I'm a second grade teacher at the Kennedy
Speaker 1: School and I leave my job to my twelve year
Speaker 1: old son, like wild, Well, there's sounds like there's a
Speaker 1: movie plot there. Exactly. Okay, So Bridget, we're so excited
Speaker 1: to have you here. Thank you for being here. Tell
Speaker 1: us what your history, your relationship with today's movie, which
Speaker 1: we forgot to say is eaves By. You tell us
Speaker 1: all about it. Yeah, so it's a movie. So I
Speaker 1: had to really like think hard about my fationship with
Speaker 1: this movie. I realized that my parents had it on VHS,
Speaker 1: and so I think I watched it when I when
Speaker 1: it first came out, I was like a child because
Speaker 1: my parents just had it and it was one of
Speaker 1: those movies. My parents didn't have a lot of movies
Speaker 1: on VHS, so it was like one of those movies
Speaker 1: that I had seen a couple of times just by
Speaker 1: virtue of my parents having it. Another another one of
Speaker 1: those movies would be Nell. You know those movies were like, Oh,
Speaker 1: my parents randomly just had this on VHS for some reason.
Speaker 1: And I remember distinctly my brother, who was a bit older,
Speaker 1: being like, oh, I tried to watch that movie, and
Speaker 1: nothing much happens in it, and so really thinking like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's a movie that's like not good or it's boring. Really,
Speaker 1: just based on this offhand comment my brother made when
Speaker 1: I was a child, that's the best. And I could
Speaker 1: also I could definitely see how a child watching this
Speaker 1: movie would think that nothing really happens in it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a lot of it. As a kid, I think most
Speaker 1: of the plot and subtexts went right over my head.
Speaker 1: I didn't like, I could not have even though I've
Speaker 1: seen I had seen it, most to the major plot
Speaker 1: points I could not have articulated. And also, something I
Speaker 1: have to say is that this is a bit embarrassing.
Speaker 1: But when I was young, I went through a phase
Speaker 1: where I was doing some like child acting and like
Speaker 1: child modeling and child pageantry. And I don't know if
Speaker 1: y'all know this. But the main character Eve, the titular character,
Speaker 1: Journey Smillett, she was I guess she was a bit
Speaker 1: younger than me, but like our era of doing that
Speaker 1: stuff over lapped, and so I once went to an
Speaker 1: audition that she was also auditioning for. But she was
Speaker 1: like the girl like if you like she was on
Speaker 1: a full House, she was in um that movie with
Speaker 1: Robin Williams Jack like she was. She was like a
Speaker 1: certain kind of young girl in in like a window
Speaker 1: of the nineties. WHOA, that's that. You've had interactions with
Speaker 1: Journey at like, I mean, I guess there's really no
Speaker 1: The great thing about Journey Smillett is there's no such
Speaker 1: thing as peak Journey small She's had so many phases
Speaker 1: of her career that you could argue right now like
Speaker 1: Birds of Prey, Journey smaller is peaked Journey smaller. You
Speaker 1: just she's been. It's so where I feel like she
Speaker 1: like isn't brought up a lot as like an iconic
Speaker 1: child actor, which is strange because she has been so
Speaker 1: consistently really good, yeah, and very recognizable. Um And it's
Speaker 1: been fun to see her, like her work on Lovecraft Country,
Speaker 1: like It's been interesting to see her have this staying power.
Speaker 1: She is like unbelievable in this movie, like good Lord,
Speaker 1: so good a child actor. I can get behind Jamie.
Speaker 1: What what's your relationship? I am ashamed to say. I
Speaker 1: only recently learned that this movie, uh existed. I knew
Speaker 1: about the writer, director, Kasi Lemon's, like I had seen
Speaker 1: a lot of her later work and I like recognized
Speaker 1: her from her acting days, but I hadn't heard that
Speaker 1: much about this movie until I was working on Lolita
Speaker 1: podcast plug a couple of months ago and I was
Speaker 1: looking up like kind of iconic movies that addressed child
Speaker 1: sex abuse in one way or another, and eaves By
Speaker 1: You popped up and I was like, oh, we've gotten
Speaker 1: requests for this, and kind of like I learned about
Speaker 1: the movie from there, so I I don't know. I
Speaker 1: it was strange too, because it's like this movie came
Speaker 1: out in nineties seven and appears to have been snubbed
Speaker 1: for all of the major like most major awards, which
Speaker 1: is really frustrating, But it was like a popular movie
Speaker 1: at the time. Like I asked my mom if she
Speaker 1: had seen it, She's like, oh, yeah, I saw it
Speaker 1: like a lot of people saw that movie, and I
Speaker 1: was like, why don't I ever hear about it? I
Speaker 1: don't know, it was just kind of I'm I'm like
Speaker 1: bummed out and like surprised that I didn't know about
Speaker 1: it until recently. But I, holy ship, there's so much
Speaker 1: to talk about with this movie. I'm really excited to
Speaker 1: talk about it. The fact that this is her first
Speaker 1: movie is like, yeah, who, like the bar is so high,
Speaker 1: it's so so good for sure, Kitl. What's your history
Speaker 1: with this movie? Um, it was on my radar for
Speaker 1: a while, but I hadn't seen it until we started
Speaker 1: prepping for this episode, And yeah, it's I did not
Speaker 1: know how challenging of a movie it was going to be.
Speaker 1: And I'm very like, I'm nervous to talk about it. It
Speaker 1: It just like deals with some very challenging subject matter
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh no, I'm gonna funk this up.
Speaker 1: But um, yeah, I'm excited to talk about it. I'm
Speaker 1: nervous to talk about it. There's a lot to unpack
Speaker 1: and yeah, yeah, that's that's pretty much it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I was really looking forward to One of the reasons
Speaker 1: why I'm looking forward to our conversation is because when
Speaker 1: I was watching it, I kept saying, like I forgot that,
Speaker 1: you know, Um, I guess we'll get into it. But
Speaker 1: I was really excited to hear Jamie since of your
Speaker 1: work on the Lada podcast about some of the themes
Speaker 1: in the film, like there I think I must have
Speaker 1: just like blocked out that is a plot device in
Speaker 1: eves by you when I saw, or I guess because
Speaker 1: I saw when I was young. I think it just
Speaker 1: like went over my head. Um, But yeah, I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I bet Jamie's got some interesting inside from doing so
Speaker 1: much research for the Lida Body. Yeah, there's there's a lot.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm excited isn't the word. But I think it
Speaker 1: will be like an interesting conversation for all of us
Speaker 1: to to talk about because I thought that, like, I mean,
Speaker 1: there are so many movies that hand handle it so
Speaker 1: like extremely poorly. And I also can imagine like if
Speaker 1: I had seen this movie when I was too young,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have I don't know, like the way it's
Speaker 1: presented would have been confusing to me. But I like,
Speaker 1: I think generally like it's done like really really thoughtfully
Speaker 1: and like in a way that I I don't know Yeah,
Speaker 1: that I don't really see you very much, so I'm
Speaker 1: excited to talk about it. Yeah, should I do the
Speaker 1: recap and we'll go from there. Let's do it, Okay,
Speaker 1: So this would be I think a good time. Just
Speaker 1: for a trigger warning for child sexual abuse and incest. Um.
Speaker 1: So the movie opens with some voiceover from the titular
Speaker 1: character Eve as an adult. She's talking about memories and
Speaker 1: she says that line that we referenced in the beginning
Speaker 1: of the episode that she killed her father when she
Speaker 1: was ten years old. Um. We are in a place
Speaker 1: called Eve's Bayou, which is a small creole community in
Speaker 1: Louisiana in the nineteen sixties. We cut to the Batiste
Speaker 1: family throwing a decadent party and we meet a ten
Speaker 1: year old girl, Eve that's Journey Smallett. Her father is
Speaker 1: a respected doctor that's Samuel L. Jackson. Her mother roz
Speaker 1: is Lynn Whitfield. She's the prettiest woman in town. And
Speaker 1: she also has a younger brother, Poe, played by Jake Smollett.
Speaker 1: And you can tell that they're related so much. A
Speaker 1: light like poor Megan Good. These two kids are so related. Also,
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that this was young Megan Good, and
Speaker 1: I didn't know that Megan Good was a child actor.
Speaker 1: I was. I'm a fan of adult Megan Good. Didn't
Speaker 1: know she's been at this for so long, because yes she.
Speaker 1: Megan Good plays Eve's older sister, Cecily, who had has
Speaker 1: just turned fourteen. We also meet Eve's grandmother and her aunt, Moselle,
Speaker 1: played by Debbie Morgan. So at this party, Eve gets
Speaker 1: jealous because her dad always is dancing with her sister
Speaker 1: Cecily and never with her, and this is also where
Speaker 1: she catches her father having sex with another woman, Maddie
Speaker 1: Moreau played by Lisa Nicole Parson. And later that night,
Speaker 1: Eve tells her sister Cecily what she saw, but Cecily
Speaker 1: doesn't believe her, and she kind of fabricates this more innocent,
Speaker 1: alternate version of what you've must have seen. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: guess it's the the rapid succession of gas lighting. Uh
Speaker 1: that happens to even the first hour of this. You're
Speaker 1: just like Eve, right. And then later that night Eve
Speaker 1: has a premonition that her aunt Moselle's husband Harry dies
Speaker 1: and it comes true. Um. So, Eve has this kind
Speaker 1: of ability of foresight, as does her Aunt Moselle, and
Speaker 1: she works as a psychic counselor and in some cases
Speaker 1: she incorporates voodoo into her practices. Meanwhile, Louis continues on
Speaker 1: with his dalliances with different women around town. Flay Grant,
Speaker 1: by the way, I'm just like it has eyes. What
Speaker 1: are you doing? Like there's one scene when he takes
Speaker 1: her on his like doctor house calls and like there's
Speaker 1: a woman who's like in a nighty in bed, like
Speaker 1: I need I need some healing, and he just like
Speaker 1: closes the door on his daughters one dinner, She's like,
Speaker 1: wink wink could go outside. I'm like she's like she's
Speaker 1: ten not oh right. Yeah, So that's his m o
Speaker 1: and Eve's mother, Roz is either growing suspicious of this
Speaker 1: or perhaps already fully aware, not like she knows and then,
Speaker 1: which Eve also starts to figure out, is happening on
Speaker 1: a pretty regular basis. So one day Roz and Aunt
Speaker 1: Moselle stopped by a market where a woman named Elzora
Speaker 1: played by Diane Carroll is giving fortunes and Roz gets
Speaker 1: her fortun been told and Alzura says, you're in pain,
Speaker 1: but you should just kind of stay quiet and wait.
Speaker 1: Sometimes a soldier falls on his own sword, and in
Speaker 1: three years you'll be happy again. Look to your children,
Speaker 1: Look to your children. And this is like very ominous
Speaker 1: and Ras is kind of freaking out about it. And
Speaker 1: then Moselle has a premonition that a child gets hit
Speaker 1: by a train, and Ras is terrified because she thinks
Speaker 1: it might be it'll be one of her children, so
Speaker 1: she coops them up in the house for several weeks. Well, also,
Speaker 1: you missed the part where el Zora is so mean
Speaker 1: to Moselle. It's like a psychic on psychic, like right
Speaker 1: roast battle. I was like, oh my god. She's like like,
Speaker 1: I don't need no catbone to tell you that you're
Speaker 1: the black widow and any man who lays with you
Speaker 1: is gonna die. And she the scene is actually upsetting
Speaker 1: because she's like you old witch. And she in the jar.
Speaker 1: This woman has been like cutting her money and she
Speaker 1: throws it and it breaks. I gotta say, I probably
Speaker 1: if I met a creepy old voodoo lady, I probably
Speaker 1: would like not be so rude to her. I probably wouldn't.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I would like. I was a little
Speaker 1: concerned that she was being so openly hostile to this
Speaker 1: woman who seemed so scary. Yeah, it's it's it's fun
Speaker 1: because there's um there's a number of actors in this movie,
Speaker 1: mostly female actors, who had really established themselves in soap operas,
Speaker 1: and it seems like that they're like, oh, these are
Speaker 1: two soap opera like legends, being like I'm not cursed
Speaker 1: and like throwing a you know, shattering glass. I love
Speaker 1: the soap opera act like you just there's so many
Speaker 1: like amazing actors who started in soaps, but when they
Speaker 1: get to like go back to their roots, it's exciting.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you brought that up because I mean,
Speaker 1: Diane Carroll is an icon from Dynasty. Like, I don't
Speaker 1: know if you'll watch Dynasty. I was definitely like young
Speaker 1: watching it when my grandma was rewatching it. But like
Speaker 1: her role on the old Dynasty's where she would always
Speaker 1: you know that that expression like oh, I have the
Speaker 1: receipts that comes from her. She originated that. There's an
Speaker 1: amazing scene from an old Dynasty episode where it's like
Speaker 1: her and she's wearing a her and she's like, I
Speaker 1: have the receipts and she's like throwing them, uh honestly
Speaker 1: shout out to a fucking icon legend, like so happy
Speaker 1: that she's in this movie. And I think that she
Speaker 1: does pump up the drama, the soapy drama in an
Speaker 1: amazing way. It's so the way that like when she
Speaker 1: like does the like the ha ha, You're like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, that is like I had to go. I
Speaker 1: forgot that she was on Dynasty, and I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, what was her because I remember watching reruns.
Speaker 1: I was like, what was her character's name? It was
Speaker 1: Dominique Devereaux. It was Dynasty. And then Debbie Morgan was
Speaker 1: on All My Children for a really long time time
Speaker 1: and she was the first black woman to win an
Speaker 1: Emmy for soap opera. But yeah, they're the soap opera
Speaker 1: energy in that scene was really just help exciting. Also,
Speaker 1: Moselle screams you're a horrid, lying old witch, which almost
Speaker 1: passes the Bechdel test exception said that the fortune was
Speaker 1: about men and her husband's who will die. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I skipped over that part because there's a whole subplot
Speaker 1: where like then Moselle like me a man and like,
Speaker 1: but all of her husbands have died, and she like
Speaker 1: explains all of this to Eve and then but this other,
Speaker 1: this new man comes in and they fall in love
Speaker 1: and she's afraid that he's going to die if they
Speaker 1: get married. I just kind of I basically skip over
Speaker 1: that in the recap, but that is a part of
Speaker 1: the movie. I just was like, that was like one
Speaker 1: of my favorite scenes in the movie. Yeah, the reenactment
Speaker 1: of that, the part where she's telving up talking about
Speaker 1: her um where Moselle is talking about her ex lovers
Speaker 1: and it's like that that re enactment scene of her
Speaker 1: ex lover, her husband getting shot by her ex lover.
Speaker 1: I was like, my heart was like racing. It is
Speaker 1: like it's very sopy, but the way it's acted out,
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, this is like a play. Like the
Speaker 1: way that it's appearing in the reflection, I was like, oh, yes,
Speaker 1: this is like this is a Broadway Award winning play.
Speaker 1: Like yeah, it's so good. Yep um okay. So then
Speaker 1: Moselle has her premonition about a child being killed, so
Speaker 1: Roz coops all her children up in the house. Everyone
Speaker 1: is getting very restless. Eve has an outburst, which is
Speaker 1: also like I think that's my favorite scene where she
Speaker 1: like is just like screaming and she's like calling everyone
Speaker 1: out on their ship and like giving everyone attitude. And
Speaker 1: I was like, damn, that is again very good child
Speaker 1: acting and I'm here for it. And then it was
Speaker 1: like I was like, oh my gosh, now she's going
Speaker 1: to talk to Moselle and Mozelle is gonna believe her.
Speaker 1: And then Moselle does believe her, but she's like, I
Speaker 1: do believe you, but if you speak your truth, I
Speaker 1: will kill you, Like I will, oh right. So then
Speaker 1: one day Cecily leaves against her her mother's like explicit
Speaker 1: instructions to stay home, and she goes to visit her dad,
Speaker 1: and then she also goes to the beauty parlor and
Speaker 1: her mother is really upset because Cecily disobeyed her and
Speaker 1: she hits her. And then that night Ros and Louis
Speaker 1: argue and then Moselle's premonition comes true. My child gets
Speaker 1: hit by a bus, but it was not one of
Speaker 1: the Batiste children, so they're like so weird. They throw
Speaker 1: a party when a kid is killed by a bus.
Speaker 1: You're like, thank god it wasn't one of mine. I
Speaker 1: do appreciate the grandma and that scene. She's not in
Speaker 1: the movie very much, but she's just like, you, guys,
Speaker 1: a child has died. And they're like, they're like, not
Speaker 1: my problem. We can go out a child that they know.
Speaker 1: They're like, oh, it's like so and So's boy, and
Speaker 1: it's like you you know this family like it is
Speaker 1: like it's funny, isn't the word? But I'm just like, wow,
Speaker 1: it's it's just like there's not room in the movie
Speaker 1: too mourn this fictional child. But it's like, oh, this
Speaker 1: kid was probably friends with the Batiste kids, and they're
Speaker 1: just like, who do they know the child by name?
Speaker 1: They obviously I know him like in their community. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're I appreciated grandma advocating on behalf of fictional bus kid. Yes, truly, um,
Speaker 1: but they're very excited that they can go outside again.
Speaker 1: And then Eve goes to tell Cecily the news, but
Speaker 1: Cecily is very upset and she has kind of shut down,
Speaker 1: and it might be because she has just gotten her period,
Speaker 1: it might be because ros had hit her not long ago,
Speaker 1: and she lashes out violently at Eve and then she
Speaker 1: continues to like stay like just emotionally and mentally shut
Speaker 1: down for a few weeks, and then she tells Eve
Speaker 1: what's really going on, which is that a few weeks ago,
Speaker 1: the night that her parents had a big fight was
Speaker 1: like the night of this big storm. Cecily went to
Speaker 1: go comfort her father, but he abused her sexually and physically,
Speaker 1: and upon hearing this, Eve once her father dead for
Speaker 1: doing that to her sister. So Eve goes to el Zora,
Speaker 1: who practices voodoo in hopes that she can help Eve
Speaker 1: kill her father. And it's around this time also that
Speaker 1: Eve heavily suggests to Maddie Moreau's husband that Maddie is
Speaker 1: cheating on him. That's another really good Journey Smileett scene
Speaker 1: where you can like, oh, it's especially with child actors,
Speaker 1: like wow, you can really see the gears turning in
Speaker 1: her head of like should I do it? Should I
Speaker 1: do it? Should I do it? And then it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's really good and obviously like it was effective. I
Speaker 1: mean I don't know, I mean maybe not the way
Speaker 1: that she and the way that she wanted, but like
Speaker 1: you know, part of me was thinking, like imagine being
Speaker 1: an adult, an adult man, and a child is telling
Speaker 1: you what is going on in your own household, Like yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that that was brutal. And then the second that was like,
Speaker 1: this story is so well crafted that it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: the second that happens, I'm like, oh, like I sort
Speaker 1: of saw the incoming, but it was like satisfying because
Speaker 1: of how full circle, like every everything that's planted has
Speaker 1: this significance, and yeah, if you think you know what's coming,
Speaker 1: you might be right. So then Eve goes back to
Speaker 1: el Zora and the voodoo that el Zora had performed
Speaker 1: arm was not what Eve had expected, and she's not
Speaker 1: sure if it's going to work. And then Eve has
Speaker 1: second thoughts about wanting her father dead, so she goes
Speaker 1: to him, who is at that moment with Maddie, and
Speaker 1: then Maddie's husband shows up, figures out what's going on,
Speaker 1: and shoots and kills Louis, which plays out the way
Speaker 1: that Moselle's premonition had played out earlier, where it seems
Speaker 1: like someone had got hit by a train. So the
Speaker 1: family grieves the loss of Louis, and then Eve finds
Speaker 1: a letter that Louis had wrote to his sister Moselle,
Speaker 1: who had apparently accused Louis of abusing his daughter, and
Speaker 1: in the letter, Louis explains his version of what happened,
Speaker 1: that Cecily was the one to come on to him
Speaker 1: and that he fought her off. Um, so Eve confronts Cecily,
Speaker 1: accusing her of having lied a what happened, and it's
Speaker 1: a very heavy emotional moment. They're both in tears and
Speaker 1: Cecily says, I don't know what happened, and they decided
Speaker 1: to just get rid of the letter, and then the
Speaker 1: voice over comes back in repeating that line about memory
Speaker 1: being a selection of images, some elusive others imprinted indelibly
Speaker 1: on the brain. And that is the end of the movie.
Speaker 1: So the last shot is like haunting. Yeah, so let's
Speaker 1: take a quick break and then we will come right
Speaker 1: back to discuss and we're back. Um, so I think
Speaker 1: it would probably be best to start with kind of
Speaker 1: the most sensitive aspects of this conversation and then lead
Speaker 1: into the kind of more fun parts. So yeah, I mean, all,
Speaker 1: I guess star there. I've been unfortunately like researching Child's
Speaker 1: excuse for like seven or eight months at this point,
Speaker 1: and so there's like a lot of that I had
Speaker 1: watching this movie that were I mean, okay, so I
Speaker 1: guess like trigger warning for this whole section, and we
Speaker 1: can even like time code out in the description, like
Speaker 1: if you want to skip over this conversation, you can
Speaker 1: pick up here. But yeah, I thought that this was, like,
Speaker 1: especially for its time, like a pretty authentic portrait of
Speaker 1: how abuse plays out, and I really appreciated just kind
Speaker 1: of like how it was showed for the kind of
Speaker 1: mess that it is and how it affects families in
Speaker 1: such specific ways. So, first of all, like this this
Speaker 1: movie shows it shows the sexual abuse of a young
Speaker 1: black girl, which is I think for for like by
Speaker 1: and large in movies it is shown to be abused
Speaker 1: towards six white girls, which absolutely does happen very frequently,
Speaker 1: but not at the same rate that it happens in
Speaker 1: black and indigenous communities. So it's like, I feel like
Speaker 1: it's an important story to tell on that end. And
Speaker 1: another thing that it kind of touches on that I
Speaker 1: feel like is really not still kind of not understood
Speaker 1: in any meaningful way, is that nine times out of
Speaker 1: ten um sexual abuse experience as a child happens by
Speaker 1: someone that you know at least somewhat, but most often
Speaker 1: it is someone that you know well. And so like
Speaker 1: we're we were raised, you know, because this happens in
Speaker 1: the sixties. So first of all, we don't even have
Speaker 1: these resources commonly availables, and they were even less available
Speaker 1: in the sixties. And like we're generally taught as kids
Speaker 1: that we should be afraid of strangers, and there's no
Speaker 1: education and there's no kind of like attempt to raise
Speaker 1: away and us that there could be a threat from
Speaker 1: someone that you know. And then if that happens, who
Speaker 1: do you talk to? And it's just like not a
Speaker 1: conversation that has had even now and definitely wasn't had
Speaker 1: in the sixties. And so I don't know, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's I thought it was a really interesting approach, especially
Speaker 1: to set up the idea of like how memories are
Speaker 1: so complicated and like it's just science that the more
Speaker 1: often you visit a memory, the more often it tends
Speaker 1: to sort of change and shift a little bit. But
Speaker 1: I think with Sicily, what it comes down to is
Speaker 1: like she's uh, like a girl who she knows and
Speaker 1: we know by watching the movies, she has no one
Speaker 1: to turn to who's going to believe her, and she's
Speaker 1: it's there's and we'll talk about kind of like the
Speaker 1: generational trauma aspects of this movie and a bit, but
Speaker 1: she's well aware that there's really not anyone in her
Speaker 1: life except Eve who is going to receive this information
Speaker 1: in a way that is not blaming her um. And
Speaker 1: so I really I don't know. I mean, it's so
Speaker 1: depressing to see it laid out that way. But I
Speaker 1: feel like this movie, the points that Sicily's story touches
Speaker 1: are it's so common and it's like you never see
Speaker 1: it happen. Yeah, I mean, and and and even if
Speaker 1: like best case scenario for Sicily at this time in
Speaker 1: history in particular, like even if she had told her mother,
Speaker 1: her grandmother, her aunt and everyone believed her and everyone
Speaker 1: was like, we're here to support you, there were still
Speaker 1: no resources legally that she would have had because it's
Speaker 1: still such a patriarchal structure, and you know, particularly being
Speaker 1: black family, like dealing with the legal system in the
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, like, there would have just been so few
Speaker 1: options for her. And I feel like it so where
Speaker 1: it's it's interesting seeing this from Eve's perspective, especially because
Speaker 1: she's trying to understand where her sister is coming from.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't know, it's just it's like it's
Speaker 1: heartbreaking and shitty. And then also seeing that I didn't
Speaker 1: see the um the letter from the dad coming through
Speaker 1: at the end of just abusers truly going to the grave,
Speaker 1: being just completely unable to see themselves for who they
Speaker 1: are and like to spend their entire lives deflecting, deflecting,
Speaker 1: deflecting because you know, it's like her father knows that
Speaker 1: her word won't be believed over his where for most people,
Speaker 1: and that he is you know, he is the most
Speaker 1: powerful person in that family, and and he's a very
Speaker 1: powerful member of that community that town, Like everyone looks
Speaker 1: up to him, everyone respects him. Yeah. So at the
Speaker 1: end where like Cecily says, I don't know what happened
Speaker 1: based on like conversations I had with like psychologists and
Speaker 1: specialists in that field, it's like she's very likely being
Speaker 1: completely honest there, like this happened to her really recently,
Speaker 1: um by someone that she loved and trusted. Uh, she
Speaker 1: doesn't have anyone to talk to about it. She doesn't
Speaker 1: really have many people around her who can help her understand,
Speaker 1: and there were no systems at this time to be
Speaker 1: able to talk to a kid about something like that.
Speaker 1: And so, yeah, I don't know, it's like heartbreaking, but
Speaker 1: I thought it was like so well written and so
Speaker 1: well performed by by Megan Good. So I have to say,
Speaker 1: and I don't know if this is like So when
Speaker 1: I watched this movie last night, and I watched it
Speaker 1: with my partner and then I reread the Wikipedia entry,
Speaker 1: I had the same read on the ending that you did.
Speaker 1: My partner was like, oh his tape was like he
Speaker 1: was like, oh, it seems like she was confused about
Speaker 1: what happened and that you know, it's inconclusive. It's like,
Speaker 1: I I hate to use its phrase, but like he said,
Speaker 1: she said, Wikipedia did not help the The Wikipedia entry
Speaker 1: on like the like plot, it says at the end,
Speaker 1: Eve confronts Sicily and uses her second site to discover
Speaker 1: what really happened. It ends with the sisters holding hands
Speaker 1: gazing into the sunset. And so I had the exact
Speaker 1: same reading that you did that like obviously the father
Speaker 1: wrote this letter, you know, being like I didn't do this,
Speaker 1: How could you think I would do this? And that
Speaker 1: we're supposed to by the end at least I finished
Speaker 1: that movie thinking something like that that like the way
Speaker 1: that Cecily described it is the way that it happened.
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that, like there might be a
Speaker 1: read of the movie where there's where it's more ambiguous.
Speaker 1: To me. I had the same reaction where I was like, oh, well, clearly,
Speaker 1: you know, clearly he did this. And it was funny
Speaker 1: because when that so I have a I have a
Speaker 1: very very like visceral reaction when sexual violence is part
Speaker 1: like a plot device in a movie where I'm almost like,
Speaker 1: it's almost like disorienting and I kind of can't. It
Speaker 1: challenges so much of like what I I've seen before,
Speaker 1: And so the beginning of the movie they go to
Speaker 1: such a great pains to show that the father is
Speaker 1: like so doting of a father, particularly to Sicily, And
Speaker 1: so it's one of those things where you know, it's
Speaker 1: exactly what you were saying, Jamie, where I was like,
Speaker 1: was he were the signs always there that he was
Speaker 1: an abuser and I just missed them. I'm I'm remembering
Speaker 1: them as charming, but actually they were creepy. That there's
Speaker 1: that there's a scene early on when they're at that
Speaker 1: lavish party and he's dancing with Sicily and he's like, oh,
Speaker 1: you guys can't. Isn't my daughter a beautiful dancer? And
Speaker 1: scenes like that where you're like, well, wait, was that
Speaker 1: indicative of something more sinister going on? And I'm and
Speaker 1: I'm and I missed it because I was so caught
Speaker 1: up in this idea of like what a good dad.
Speaker 1: I think this movie does a good job of challenging
Speaker 1: our understanding of memory and challenging our understanding of like
Speaker 1: how we put a puzzle together to really show what's
Speaker 1: actually happening, because I cause I do feel like towards
Speaker 1: the end, it's not clear to me what I have seen, right,
Speaker 1: it's just a it's this a doting father where like
Speaker 1: his daughter got mixed up? Or is this a sexual abuser?
Speaker 1: I think like the movie, and I think that when
Speaker 1: these things play out, I think abusers oftentimes can use
Speaker 1: that that same dynamic of like, well, you know there,
Speaker 1: everyone's gonna think I'm just a good dad, Like who's
Speaker 1: gonna believe this? I think that it could kind of
Speaker 1: work on multiple levels. I guess what I'm saying. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's so. That is my thing with this movie. It
Speaker 1: feels to me as though there is too much ambiguity,
Speaker 1: and I wish that ambiguity had been just more squashed
Speaker 1: by the end or something, because especially so I also
Speaker 1: read it that she is a survivor of abuse and
Speaker 1: he is an abuser. I think the three of us
Speaker 1: are all just the type of people who are inclined
Speaker 1: to believe survivors believe women. That was our read, But
Speaker 1: both times I watched this movie, by the end, I
Speaker 1: was like, there's just there are ways to interpret it
Speaker 1: differently than our read. And I think that's a dangerous thing,
Speaker 1: especially when dealing with a subject like child sex abuse,
Speaker 1: which is something that if you're going to tell a
Speaker 1: story about it, there shouldn't be ambiguity, because if there's ambiguity,
Speaker 1: that gives people a chance to say, I don't think
Speaker 1: it happened like that, or I don't believe them, or
Speaker 1: it's all a big misunderstanding, especially because like we had
Speaker 1: seen that other scene earlier where Cecily kind of it's like, no, Eve,
Speaker 1: that's not what you saw. You saw this version of
Speaker 1: the truth. And the fact that we have seen Cecily
Speaker 1: distort the truth before, I think would also be grounds
Speaker 1: for an interpretation that she is distorting the truth this
Speaker 1: time too. I don't think that's what happened, or that
Speaker 1: was not my read of it. But again, there's so
Speaker 1: much ambiguity there, and at least for me there was
Speaker 1: that I can I can see different interpretations of it.
Speaker 1: And then after like having all these thoughts, I came
Speaker 1: upon an interview with the cast as well as the
Speaker 1: director of this movie, Casey Lemons, that was like the
Speaker 1: twentieth anniversary special, and when asked about that scene that
Speaker 1: plays out two different ways, one as an adult abusing
Speaker 1: a child, and then the the second version, which is
Speaker 1: a child having like a misguided I don't even know
Speaker 1: how to just know what to call it exactly, but
Speaker 1: the second version. This is what Casey Lemons said about
Speaker 1: this moment in the movie quote. My intention was, what
Speaker 1: if you explode this moment. It's actually a very innocent
Speaker 1: relationship that they're having. He loves his daughter, she adores
Speaker 1: her father. They adore each other, and what if one
Speaker 1: night they crossed a line and we're both completely traumatized.
Speaker 1: But it spun everything else out of control. So to me,
Speaker 1: it wasn't controversial, it was the story. It was strange
Speaker 1: for people to ask me why do you have that
Speaker 1: angle there? Well, that's the story end quote. So even
Speaker 1: Casey lemons it's not helpful at all, a little evasive.
Speaker 1: I was like, I was like, okay, I was really hoping.
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, she's gonna come through for us.
Speaker 1: She's gonna be like I didn't that's a little man,
Speaker 1: that's that's a weird I mean, whatever, it's her movie.
Speaker 1: I can't I can't be like huh, but yeah, we
Speaker 1: can sort of be like I guess it's it's I
Speaker 1: don't know. I feel like a number of ways about it.
Speaker 1: I do agree that any movie that depicts child sex
Speaker 1: abuse should be pretty clear about them, Like it's the
Speaker 1: easiest thing in the world to condemn, Like, why wouldn't
Speaker 1: you more clear they condemn it. I guess the argument
Speaker 1: that I can see for the I mean, it's just
Speaker 1: like it's I don't even I'm not even totally bothered
Speaker 1: by the fact that we are told that he doesn't
Speaker 1: see what he was doing as abuse. That is how
Speaker 1: abusers feel all the time. But it's just like going
Speaker 1: that one step further to make it clear how the
Speaker 1: movie feels. I guess that the only count and this
Speaker 1: is like not even how I feel, but I do.
Speaker 1: I don't know in movies and like this it almost
Speaker 1: not to bring Doubt into the conversation, but similar to
Speaker 1: Doubt a story that it's iconic and it does address
Speaker 1: child sex abuse, and I feel like it's like almost
Speaker 1: I don't know, like if this is just like kind
Speaker 1: of a movie thing that happened sometimes, but it's like
Speaker 1: a movie that's supposed to start a discussion where it's
Speaker 1: like bridget with you and your partner, you both interpreted
Speaker 1: the ending really differently, and then by discussing how you
Speaker 1: felt like differently about the ending. I don't know, Like
Speaker 1: I do see value in like ambiguous endings that can
Speaker 1: start conversations. I just don't know that like this topic
Speaker 1: is the one to have the this much ambiguity with.
Speaker 1: I remember, like leaving the theater seeing Doubt, my mom
Speaker 1: was like, so do you think he did it? Which
Speaker 1: is like should not be the question you're asking. It's
Speaker 1: like we need to be asking a more sophisticated question
Speaker 1: than that, Like yeah, well, just something I want to
Speaker 1: say is I think that, like you know, movies like
Speaker 1: Doubt and use by you, I mean, and Jamie, you
Speaker 1: could probably speak to this as well. It is exceedingly
Speaker 1: rare for child, for anybody, but especially children, to lie
Speaker 1: about sexual violence, right, Like, It's just that, like, it's
Speaker 1: exceedingly rare. And I think that movies like Doubt and
Speaker 1: movies like Ease by You, even though I enjoy them both,
Speaker 1: I do think it makes it. It presents a universe
Speaker 1: we're in. Maybe it's not rare, but we know it's rare,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Yeah, I agree, And I
Speaker 1: might have been giving this movie maybe a little more
Speaker 1: credit then it totally deserves on that end. It's just
Speaker 1: I where I'm coming from is I've seen so many
Speaker 1: movies that have just absolutely missed the mark, that don't
Speaker 1: even present the possibility that a child could be telling
Speaker 1: the truth about something like this. That the fact that
Speaker 1: we are presented clearly with the fact that whatever happens
Speaker 1: that Cecily is like extremely traumatized by it and alters
Speaker 1: the course of her life. You don't usually even get
Speaker 1: that much. And and she like shuts down, she becomes
Speaker 1: like she is like displaying all these kind of like
Speaker 1: classic symptoms of a child who has suffered abuse and
Speaker 1: doesn't know who to turn to about it. And you
Speaker 1: don't even usually get that much, which is really really bleak. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's I do think that there is some value
Speaker 1: in kind of reminding audiences that like abusers are going
Speaker 1: to you know, generally defend themselves to the grave and
Speaker 1: like it. Yeah, I don't know, it's that's so interesting.
Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, I'm in like a weird headspace for it.
Speaker 1: But I for me, I was like, oh, the ending
Speaker 1: is like even based on like the images they chose
Speaker 1: to show Eve's um, you know, like vision at the end,
Speaker 1: I thought. For me, I was like, oh, I think
Speaker 1: that that corroborates in her reaction based off of that vision.
Speaker 1: Is like it seems like she was like I believe you.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry I came at you believing are like demonstrably
Speaker 1: deceitful abusive father like her reaction. But I like, and
Speaker 1: I'd probably have to go back and rewatch that the
Speaker 1: vision that you've has at the very end. But I
Speaker 1: feel like the like specific images that were chosen to
Speaker 1: be included in that vision still contribute to the ambiguity
Speaker 1: of it. Well at the end of Okay, so at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, here's how I feel about
Speaker 1: Like this is like something that I've been thinking about
Speaker 1: a lot the last couple of weeks. But um, I
Speaker 1: think that were like often like when we're talking about
Speaker 1: stories like this and crimes like this, the thing is like,
Speaker 1: even if what Samuel L. Jackson's character is saying is true,
Speaker 1: he's still a child sex abuser, Like it doesn't matter,
Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? Like, I think that
Speaker 1: there's like in the case of like, I'm just like
Speaker 1: fully Lolita brain. But like in the case of Lolita,
Speaker 1: a lot of like how people have discredited her character
Speaker 1: as by saying like, well, she had a crush on him,
Speaker 1: and so somehow like displaying any attempt to experiment with
Speaker 1: power as an adolescent means that you deserved whatever happened
Speaker 1: to you. When it's like, at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: whether you know whether Cecily's presentation of the crime was
Speaker 1: true or whether Samuel L. Jackson's was. Either way, even
Speaker 1: if it was, you know, a kid trying to experiment
Speaker 1: with power with an adult that they trust, it's still
Speaker 1: abuse for him to reciprocate for even a second and
Speaker 1: then to physically abuse her afterwards. So I but I
Speaker 1: but the problem is I don't think that a lot
Speaker 1: of people understand that that even if even if like
Speaker 1: someone initiates with you, that the power and balance is
Speaker 1: that large and it's incestuous and all these other things,
Speaker 1: that it is still on the powerful adult, and that
Speaker 1: is still who the So yeah, I don't know. I'm
Speaker 1: just like I've talked to a lot of survivors who
Speaker 1: have felt guilt and have felt, you know, what happened
Speaker 1: to them was somehow less valid because they had been
Speaker 1: curious about what that experience would be like, and then
Speaker 1: when an adult took advantage of them, you know it,
Speaker 1: it was abuse, and it confused them and it caused
Speaker 1: all these negative repercussions in their life. And so I
Speaker 1: feel like it's it sucks because like, no matter what
Speaker 1: happened in that scenario, even with Samuel L. Jackson's character
Speaker 1: painting himself in the best possible light, he is still
Speaker 1: an abuser. And so it's like, yeah, yeah, And I
Speaker 1: want to add one thing to that. So I completely
Speaker 1: agree with you, and I want to take it a
Speaker 1: bit further. And this might, I mean, this might be
Speaker 1: colored by my own you know, whatever I'm I'm bringing
Speaker 1: to this conversation, But I agree with you and I
Speaker 1: also would say, even if the moment between him and
Speaker 1: Cecily during the storm never happened, you and I have
Speaker 1: already talked about the beginning of this movie, where you know,
Speaker 1: he at a party at his in in his home
Speaker 1: with his wife and his children, he takes a woman
Speaker 1: that is not his wife into a back room of
Speaker 1: his of his home to have sex with her, right
Speaker 1: and his daughter happens to be there and sees it.
Speaker 1: He takes his daughter on these house calls where he's
Speaker 1: very clearly there to have sex with women. So even
Speaker 1: if even if the thing was Cecily never happened, he
Speaker 1: is still a grown man introducing a very adult level
Speaker 1: of sexuality the end of the lives of his children,
Speaker 1: who are very young and too young to understand what's
Speaker 1: going on. And so that's that is not how healthy
Speaker 1: mature adults engage with their children. So I would say
Speaker 1: that he, you know, has cultivated a vibe in his
Speaker 1: household with his children where it's no wonder they're confused
Speaker 1: about sexuality. I would say that this movie wants him
Speaker 1: to be a lot more blameless than he is for
Speaker 1: some of the other behavior, because I feel like, of course,
Speaker 1: like his kids can't feel safe and healthy in an
Speaker 1: environment where he is irresponsibly sexualizing things in a way
Speaker 1: that that that is far too advanced for them to understand,
Speaker 1: because their kids, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah,
Speaker 1: It's it's weird because it's like I think that like
Speaker 1: we're like having like I now knowing that quote from
Speaker 1: from Casey Lemons, I'm just like, how much of this
Speaker 1: was intended? It's yeah, I know who even I mean,
Speaker 1: it's like, I I mean, I guess if we're being generous,
Speaker 1: like you could interpret her saying that's just how the
Speaker 1: story goes of like you know, have the conversation. I'm
Speaker 1: not going to answer your questions for you, which is
Speaker 1: like valid, but I'm just like, well, you could denounce
Speaker 1: child sex abuse, that would be that would be that
Speaker 1: would be just you know, even if it's just that,
Speaker 1: that would be great. Um. But yeah, I mean it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we we all and I think most listeners of this
Speaker 1: show we believe sicily that you know, gigantic trauma was caused,
Speaker 1: and even with the most support possible, it's still, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of a lifelong journey for many people to recomm
Speaker 1: with this kind of abuse. Um, But yeah, I just
Speaker 1: want to like, no matter what happened in that situation,
Speaker 1: no matter whose account or somewhere in between is true,
Speaker 1: he's a child sex abuser, like period, end of story. Um,
Speaker 1: And there's and especially with children, it's like there's there
Speaker 1: is no like perfect victim. And yeah, I think that,
Speaker 1: like it's that's just like something that we even like
Speaker 1: you know, like feminist and people who are like very
Speaker 1: inclined to believe survivors like need to work on is
Speaker 1: like the way that these like dynamics play out are
Speaker 1: not cleanly, like I said no, and then he did this,
Speaker 1: Like it is often very ambiguous and it comes down
Speaker 1: to power dynamics and all these other things. So sure,
Speaker 1: and I wonder if the intention was to explore like
Speaker 1: that version of the ambiguity. But she told us, I
Speaker 1: just I know, and we also like, you know, just
Speaker 1: considering the context of the time that this movie came
Speaker 1: out today, Like so this is like ven where steeped
Speaker 1: in you know, patriarchal standards, toxic masculinity, a rape culture
Speaker 1: that tends to believe the perpetrators of these crimes rather
Speaker 1: than the survivors. This is our rape culture. Every generation
Speaker 1: has their own rape culture. This is our rape culture.
Speaker 1: So so to to tackle a story that deals with
Speaker 1: this subject matter again, it has to be done so
Speaker 1: carefully and that ambigu I really feel that that ambiguity
Speaker 1: needs to be removed if you're going to tackle it responsibly.
Speaker 1: And I just I can't. And it's like, sure, this
Speaker 1: is us, you know, post me too, but even like,
Speaker 1: oh god, that's what that's that's what this is. Why
Speaker 1: this I was like so nervous to talk about this
Speaker 1: movie and then why I think it's so challenging and well,
Speaker 1: the other thing too, is um, the other thing that
Speaker 1: really bothers me about this movie is the abuse that
Speaker 1: we see happen on screen. Is us seeing actor Samuel L. Jackson,
Speaker 1: a full adult male kiss that's Megan Good on screen,
Speaker 1: who was fifteen or sixteen at the time of shooting
Speaker 1: this movie. Underage. Yeah, I just it could have been
Speaker 1: should have been framed in such a way where this
Speaker 1: child actor did not have to kiss and be kissed
Speaker 1: by an adult many. Oh, I don't like it. Like
Speaker 1: it's not like I don't like it. I think there
Speaker 1: are ways to even if you are trying to depict
Speaker 1: like a scene. You're trying to depict on screen an
Speaker 1: underaged girl and a grown man. You want you wanted
Speaker 1: to pick them together. There are ways to get around
Speaker 1: having a The actor's actually portray this right like, there
Speaker 1: are ways to do it. I just don't like it.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if you have ever seen
Speaker 1: that movie. Um, it's the it's the it's kind of
Speaker 1: build as like a sequel to do the right thing.
Speaker 1: The Spike Lee movie I'm gonna blank the name. Oh um,
Speaker 1: Red Hook Summer. It's a it's a like wild movie,
Speaker 1: but I do not recommend it, but there's a there.
Speaker 1: It also deals with childhood sexual violence. And something about
Speaker 1: that movie that really sticks with me is that the
Speaker 1: way that it's the picked it seems so it seems
Speaker 1: it's so egregiously like you know, you you as a
Speaker 1: as a filmmaker, you don't want to be depicting a
Speaker 1: child and an adult having like having a physical sexual
Speaker 1: like relations on screen. And I feel like sometimes sometimes
Speaker 1: films can get there, maybe they're trying to critique it
Speaker 1: or attack it or what have you, but at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, you don't want to be depicting
Speaker 1: it on screen. At least in my book, right, I
Speaker 1: just think that there's there's gotta be a way to
Speaker 1: handle it differently. I think, yes, I agree, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: this is this episode is a long plug for Lolita podcast.
Speaker 1: There's there's like a whole, there's a whole. I I
Speaker 1: completely agree, and there's it's frustrating because what I think,
Speaker 1: just knowing is when the second Lolita movie came out,
Speaker 1: so I'm very intimately familiar with what the laws were
Speaker 1: with child performers in this specific year. Um So, first
Speaker 1: of all, I feel like it is always not even
Speaker 1: if you have, like there's a number of stories of
Speaker 1: like movies that that well, this is part of the
Speaker 1: reason that I was frustrated that there isn't a ton
Speaker 1: of information about the production of this movie, or there
Speaker 1: wasn't as much as I would have liked on the
Speaker 1: subject matter I was interested in because at this time
Speaker 1: there was a law for movies that were shot in
Speaker 1: nine six, at least there was a new law introduced
Speaker 1: where there couldn't be any like you had to guaranteed
Speaker 1: this movie went past a lawyer to be allowed to
Speaker 1: be released because there was a Child Pornography um Act
Speaker 1: passed in that severely restricted what you could show on screen,
Speaker 1: and it was like generally a pretty good law, but
Speaker 1: then you find kind of all these um stories that
Speaker 1: are people trying to skirt around this law. So I
Speaker 1: would guess that in many of the shots that you
Speaker 1: don't see Megan Goods face that is not her, that
Speaker 1: is an adult body double. That seems to be the
Speaker 1: most popular workaround that said, you do still see the
Speaker 1: actress underage Megan good kiss Samuel L. Jackson and I
Speaker 1: just two things. Is like, first of all, no matter
Speaker 1: how much like there's sometimes like a director will be like, well,
Speaker 1: I had a you know, a child psychologist on call,
Speaker 1: so that if the actor didn't feel comfortable talking to me,
Speaker 1: they could talk to this person. It's just not worth
Speaker 1: the risk at all, like for anyone. And it's like,
Speaker 1: if you need evidence that that's true, talked to almost
Speaker 1: any child actor who has been like Natalie Portman has
Speaker 1: talked about it extensively. There's like a number of child
Speaker 1: actors who have done scenes like this where like I
Speaker 1: just didn't feel comfortable, like I felt like I felt
Speaker 1: like there's a hundred people around me whose jobs depend
Speaker 1: on me doing this. I and I was ten, What
Speaker 1: was I going to do? You know? And then on
Speaker 1: top of that, one of the the the I guess
Speaker 1: the one of the main notes I had for just
Speaker 1: like how this because I do think that for eaves By,
Speaker 1: you handles c s A in a movie like better
Speaker 1: than almost any other movie of this year or this
Speaker 1: series of years did, which is not to say it's perfect,
Speaker 1: but it is definitely better because this is the year
Speaker 1: that Lolita came out. Right, I actually have a question
Speaker 1: for you. I don't I'm not to keep making you
Speaker 1: talk about Lolita, but so I've seen that n version
Speaker 1: of Lolita several times. There are scenes where um, Jeremy
Speaker 1: Irons and Dominique Swain kiss There's like a scene where
Speaker 1: like she's sitting on his lap. Is that a body
Speaker 1: double or is that actually her? When there's it's it's
Speaker 1: a bunch of different stuff. The amount of time and
Speaker 1: it's like it ultimately obviously was not worth it, right,
Speaker 1: But yeah, for them, it was anytime she appeared to
Speaker 1: be nude, it was a body double. Anytime that she
Speaker 1: kissed him, they had to run it by a lawyer.
Speaker 1: Her parents were on set and there was a child
Speaker 1: psychologist on set anytime she sat on his lap, there
Speaker 1: was a pillow between them. So there are like more
Speaker 1: measures than would be taken even a decade before, but
Speaker 1: it's still not enough. Going off of that, I had
Speaker 1: a conversation with a friend of this podcast, Eva Vivez,
Speaker 1: who is a survivor and has you know, incorporated just
Speaker 1: kind of the lasting effects of CISA into a lot
Speaker 1: of her work, and she pointed out, and it's totally
Speaker 1: true that um in stories about CISA, the movies and
Speaker 1: projects that tend to be more recognized are movies and
Speaker 1: projects that explicitly show the abuse. And she feels strongly
Speaker 1: that that is like very telling bias and also something
Speaker 1: that just doesn't need to happen, Like you can show
Speaker 1: the effects of CISA without showing it, And that's even
Speaker 1: true for this movie. You could not have those scenes
Speaker 1: and still have that plot point be effective, right, Like
Speaker 1: you don't need to show it. But the movies that
Speaker 1: are most successful that deal with this topic always always
Speaker 1: always show it, and the movies that just show the
Speaker 1: effects of it are more likely to kind of get
Speaker 1: swept under the rugs. So that's like another that's just
Speaker 1: I mean, like it's it's so except voitative, and I
Speaker 1: think it really it. I mean, I think we should
Speaker 1: be asking the question whether or not physical depictions of
Speaker 1: childhood sexual violence we're making that profitable and why because
Speaker 1: it sounds like from what you just said, it sounds
Speaker 1: like we are we are, and it's it's frustrating because
Speaker 1: it's like I don't know it's there. It's a really
Speaker 1: complicated question to even wrote, because I don't know. I
Speaker 1: wasn't able to find out if if Kasey Lemons was
Speaker 1: a survivor of this kind of abuse her self, but
Speaker 1: I know of like several survivors of abuse who have
Speaker 1: made movies about CSA that show to an extent what
Speaker 1: that abuses, whether it's in montage or whatever. And so
Speaker 1: it's like I don't even really feel comfortable being like
Speaker 1: no one can do it. I think that when you're
Speaker 1: when you have a child actor you it's kind of
Speaker 1: unconscionable to do um. But in terms of like I
Speaker 1: don't know, I mean, it's like there was that it
Speaker 1: was like a really popular HBO movie a couple of
Speaker 1: years ago. I think it's called The Act or is
Speaker 1: that what it was by Jennifer Fox, and it was
Speaker 1: starring La Laura Dern, and it was about Jennifer Fox's
Speaker 1: childhood sexual abuse, and it actually it reminded me a
Speaker 1: lot of Eve's bio to the part where I'm certain
Speaker 1: that she has seen it, where it is about her
Speaker 1: revisiting her child sexual abuse and revisiting the memories, and
Speaker 1: the more she talks to people in her life from
Speaker 1: that time, the more the memories kind of change in
Speaker 1: shape and end up kind of landing on what she
Speaker 1: believes the truth is. And yeah, sorry, it's the tail.
Speaker 1: It's not the act that which is like I feel
Speaker 1: complicated about it. That's not what the episode is about,
Speaker 1: but it is it. It takes on similar stuff where
Speaker 1: it shows you the abuse in a way that just, uh,
Speaker 1: it's it's weird because it's like, I don't want to
Speaker 1: tell a survivor like you shouldn't have done this, But
Speaker 1: in terms of like having a child actor in that scene,
Speaker 1: I don't think that they should have. Like it's extremely complicated,
Speaker 1: but I personally, like, I personally think that you could
Speaker 1: if I could change stuff about ease By, I would
Speaker 1: get rid of the physical depiction of those scenes. And
Speaker 1: I think that honestly, it can be more impactful to
Speaker 1: hear the child and the abuser describe it in their
Speaker 1: own words. You can have the same effect without having
Speaker 1: to show that and just kind of make it a
Speaker 1: little clearer, like you were saying, like you're boss saying
Speaker 1: at the end that no matter whose recollection is corrected,
Speaker 1: she is a survivor of abuse, and that that's like
Speaker 1: something she's going to need to, you know, continue to
Speaker 1: deal with throughout her entire life. Well, from that same
Speaker 1: interview with the cast and some of the crew, Megan
Speaker 1: Good spoke about like these specific moments in the movie,
Speaker 1: and here's what she had to say. Again. The actor
Speaker 1: who plays Cecily says, quote, we had to shoot it
Speaker 1: probably fifteen times, so God, we had to shoot my perspective,
Speaker 1: his perspective, and then the actual perspective of what really happened. Now,
Speaker 1: I'm going to pause from the quote here for a
Speaker 1: moment because it is not specific. She means by that
Speaker 1: it is not specific what the quote actual perspective of
Speaker 1: what really happened is. They're playing around with us. I
Speaker 1: don't like it. I don't like it because it's possible
Speaker 1: that that was even cut from the movie. Like whatever
Speaker 1: she's talking about might not even appear, because I know
Speaker 1: there's like a director's cut of this movie too at
Speaker 1: different I'm not sure. But so here's the rest of
Speaker 1: the quote. I remember the day before the scene, everyone
Speaker 1: was so anxious. You okay, you okay. I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm fine. Sam was as equally nervous. That was kind
Speaker 1: of the defining moment. That's the moment that brought the
Speaker 1: movie be together and what it was based on. I
Speaker 1: felt a huge responsibility to do a good job, but
Speaker 1: I was definitely nerve wracked for sure. End quote. So
Speaker 1: just to hear that, like they had to shoot it
Speaker 1: so many times, everyone was feeling very uneasy about it,
Speaker 1: Like those are indications that like, don't fucking put it
Speaker 1: in the movie. And it really it really speaks to
Speaker 1: what you were just talking about, Jamie, about like Natalie
Speaker 1: Portman saying, you know, so many people's jobs and so
Speaker 1: much money depends on me just being able to do this,
Speaker 1: and I maybe I didn't want to do it, but
Speaker 1: like I just had to. I just had to do it, right.
Speaker 1: I don't think that we should be putting children in
Speaker 1: positions who they're already so vulnerable, putting them in positions
Speaker 1: where they feel this way and they feel an immense
Speaker 1: like the fact that Megan Good said she felt pressure
Speaker 1: to get it right that just kind of heart it's
Speaker 1: and it says, it's like drives me, like she's not
Speaker 1: even the only child actor that had to deal with
Speaker 1: this exact issue this calendar year. Like that is so
Speaker 1: absurd that it's like there are just young teens and
Speaker 1: kids being put in this position in the first place,
Speaker 1: where like, yeah, it's it's an unfair ask. It's also
Speaker 1: like the fact that it's also a financial transaction on
Speaker 1: top of that, where so even like you know, it's
Speaker 1: like if you have even one parent who's kind of
Speaker 1: acting in bad faith and doesn't want to rock the
Speaker 1: boat and wants to make sure that the check has
Speaker 1: gotten then it's not even a guarantee that Like, I mean,
Speaker 1: this movie proves not all parents are good and like
Speaker 1: and certainly, you know, child actors parents have a very
Speaker 1: sordid record of acting in the best interest of their children.
Speaker 1: And so I don't even necessarily trust like a fourteen
Speaker 1: or fifty year old mother to say, like, no, she
Speaker 1: can do it, Like that may not be true, like
Speaker 1: or or you know, there's can then there should And
Speaker 1: I don't know that that quote reminds me a lot
Speaker 1: of Yeah, the actor who played the lead to this,
Speaker 1: this girl, Dominique Swain, that was like a very similar
Speaker 1: thing of like, yeah, it was really nerve wracking, and
Speaker 1: everyone was really nervous, and like Jeremy Irons was like
Speaker 1: crying during the scene, and just everyone was really stressed
Speaker 1: out about it, and I just did my best because
Speaker 1: I knew I had to do it, and like everyone,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I just I think that there are
Speaker 1: ways to tell these stories because their stories worth being told.
Speaker 1: But in live action it's not worth the risk towards
Speaker 1: the underage performer period, Like I feel like there's not
Speaker 1: to like hand it to, you know, Tarantino or anything.
Speaker 1: But like how in kill Bill, like the most traumatic
Speaker 1: scene towards a kid happens in animation instead of having
Speaker 1: making it happen, you know, instead of putting a child
Speaker 1: actor through the grueling, brutal, violent sexual violence that takes
Speaker 1: place in that scene. Like if you really, really, really,
Speaker 1: as a director, feel that this needs to be shown,
Speaker 1: you have to work around, like you you can't make
Speaker 1: a kid do it because you think it needs to
Speaker 1: be done, find another way, And I think there are like,
Speaker 1: like you just said, there's so many ways around it.
Speaker 1: I've seen so I've seen it done. Listen, there are
Speaker 1: ways to do it or it's like no one is
Speaker 1: going to be confused that you're watching a scene that's
Speaker 1: meant to be about childhood, sexual assault or something. Right,
Speaker 1: there are so many ways around it, and I just
Speaker 1: think like just depicting it on screen I think is
Speaker 1: the least imaginative when there are so many different ways. Like,
Speaker 1: if you're a storyteller, I always feel there's a there's
Speaker 1: a way to show something in a way that's respectful,
Speaker 1: and especially for something that's that is as fraught and
Speaker 1: sensitive as this topic. You you got, you got, you
Speaker 1: have to like be willing to work to find that solution. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I wish I wish the Casey Lemons had said more
Speaker 1: on on that, because it's like I do think that
Speaker 1: this is like one of the better told c s
Speaker 1: A stories of this decade, and it still makes a
Speaker 1: series of very common missteps that end end up you know,
Speaker 1: kind of putting definitely putting a child actor in danger
Speaker 1: and under undue pressure for a kid. Yeah. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: it's I don't know. I think like it's it's fucking hard,
Speaker 1: Like I it's I I am glad that a story
Speaker 1: like this was was being attempted to be told, but
Speaker 1: it's certainly not told perfectly. Um so yeah, yes, I
Speaker 1: mean it's it's challenging. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's like
Speaker 1: there's so few, like I can't really think of many
Speaker 1: movies that are like, yeah, nailed it, Like the closest
Speaker 1: like this is this, Like you couldn't think of a
Speaker 1: more different movie, but like one of the only movies
Speaker 1: that I feel like was really praise was heaped upon
Speaker 1: it and it had a lot to do with these
Speaker 1: themes but didn't show abuse. Is like Spotlight, Like that's
Speaker 1: one of the only movies that is centrally involves child
Speaker 1: sexual abuse and doesn't show it. And I guess Doubt
Speaker 1: does it too. But the central question around Doubt is
Speaker 1: like did it happen? When it's like that's not the question.
Speaker 1: It's not the question, at least in Spotlight. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it obviously happened. It happened, that we don't need to
Speaker 1: show it on screen, but rest assured that it definitely happened,
Speaker 1: and that works. I am glad that movies like that exists. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it can be like effective and you can come
Speaker 1: out you know, if it's framed to you a certain way.
Speaker 1: You can even have characters in the story that doubt
Speaker 1: the truth of what happened and take you through like
Speaker 1: the journey of like discovering Oh, like I should have
Speaker 1: just believed these survivors the entire time, and like it
Speaker 1: can be done because that's part of the narrative of
Speaker 1: Like a lot of people who are survivors of abuse,
Speaker 1: they face other people not believing them, or they face
Speaker 1: their own like did this happen? How did it happen
Speaker 1: at all? Happen so quickly? I don't exactly know the like,
Speaker 1: especially when you live in a culture that is inclined
Speaker 1: to not believe you and to kind of gas light
Speaker 1: you into alternate versions of reality. Like that's part of
Speaker 1: many survivors experience. But again, that's why it has to
Speaker 1: be handled so responsibly and so carefully if you're going
Speaker 1: to tell a story about it. Yeah, it's weird. It's
Speaker 1: weird because I feel like they're outside of the fact
Speaker 1: that I mean, we all agree that the actual scenes
Speaker 1: should not have been shot, but it's like to a
Speaker 1: one viewer who is inclined to believe survivors, I feel
Speaker 1: like it's all there, but it's but for people who
Speaker 1: are not inclined to believe survivors. And then also just
Speaker 1: like straight up, I can't really put myself in the
Speaker 1: mindset of like an adult, I don't. I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: curious of like what the conversations were, because I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know, they were certainly different and I and I
Speaker 1: and I bet that there were a lot of people
Speaker 1: that left with like, well, you know, I love Samuel L. Jackson,
Speaker 1: so shrug, like just unclear. Yeah, especially when you cast
Speaker 1: like huge, really famous actors and roles like that. I
Speaker 1: feel like audiences are very often like I love sam Jackson,
Speaker 1: I love Jeremy Irons, So I guess no harm, no foul,
Speaker 1: Like yeah, I honestly like I almost feel like I'm
Speaker 1: bringing a lot of my own baggage into this movie.
Speaker 1: But you know that the scene in the movie where
Speaker 1: Mozelle uh from blanking her name Lin Witfield, the mom
Speaker 1: and the grandmother are all talking and it's they're having
Speaker 1: a very adult conversation about infidelity, and uh, Samuel Jackson
Speaker 1: comes home and Cecily is like, you need to go
Speaker 1: down to the bar because the women are mad, mad,
Speaker 1: like get out of the house, you know. Again, sort
Speaker 1: of the idea of like I think Samuel L. Jackson's
Speaker 1: presence and their household was very disruptive to the to
Speaker 1: the young, to the girls, to his young daughters. I
Speaker 1: think that like he in Cheap brought his sexuality into
Speaker 1: his home in a way that made it made it
Speaker 1: his children's business, It made it was like on their minds,
Speaker 1: and I think, you know, it's clear to me that
Speaker 1: there's a lot of ambiguity in the universe of the film.
Speaker 1: But there's a scene in the film that I feel
Speaker 1: like for me, it's it's kind of like case closed.
Speaker 1: After he is shot and have his funeral, there's this
Speaker 1: scene where the mom and all the kids are in
Speaker 1: bed together and it's sort of almost this like picturesque
Speaker 1: like a frame, And it seems to me like Samuel L.
Speaker 1: Jackson was the cause of a lot of disruption in
Speaker 1: their household. Now that he is dead, their household is
Speaker 1: one of like stability and and like they're on this
Speaker 1: process of becoming healthier and healing and so like it's
Speaker 1: like obviously, you know, even sad that her father is dead,
Speaker 1: and like the funeral scene is very is very rough.
Speaker 1: But it seems it seems to me that the universe
Speaker 1: of the film is suggesting that his presence being removed
Speaker 1: from their their domestic life, is what gives them the
Speaker 1: ability to like have this kind of chance, a little
Speaker 1: more stability and a little more like, you know, a
Speaker 1: little more like I don't even know the word for it,
Speaker 1: like domestic just not having yeah, yeah, true, Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: what the It's what the fortune teller says to she says,
Speaker 1: just wait for three years and you'll be happy and right,
Speaker 1: you'll have peace. That's why I am, like, I am
Speaker 1: frustrated it and kind of like it to some extent,
Speaker 1: like inclined to be like it's all there in the writing,
Speaker 1: and it's like you didn't see it. You you didn't
Speaker 1: see it, you know, but it's like, you know, but
Speaker 1: in a lot of audience members didn't see it. If
Speaker 1: there's still people in that are like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: but I feel like, you know, I don't know. It
Speaker 1: gets so tricky because you I just don't like, I
Speaker 1: feel like everything you need to know is in the story. Right,
Speaker 1: But it's like some of it is pretty subtle. Some
Speaker 1: of it you need to like really be paying attention,
Speaker 1: or some of it you just need to kind of have,
Speaker 1: like I don't know, like a particular perspective that is
Speaker 1: going to believe the children, because I feel like if
Speaker 1: you can get yourself into that mindset, all the information
Speaker 1: you need is there. But the fact that I don't know, it's, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's you can't put it entirely on the artist to
Speaker 1: be like you have to spoon feed to every male
Speaker 1: audience viewer that this is a bad thing. Like it
Speaker 1: sucks that it's like that that is still kind of
Speaker 1: a reality, do you know what I mean? Like I
Speaker 1: wish that we could make more subtle films about topics
Speaker 1: like this, but it's just such an underdiscussed issue that
Speaker 1: people don't fucking get it. And it's like you need
Speaker 1: movies like fucking Spotlight where it's literally taking the little
Speaker 1: apple sauce and putting it in your mouth of like
Speaker 1: this is a crime, this is bad, eat your food,
Speaker 1: don't do crimes, you know. Like it's just so there's
Speaker 1: no like like in the way that there for for
Speaker 1: other issues, there has been more you know room for
Speaker 1: subtlety in art, there isn't on this issue, and I
Speaker 1: think that that, you know, sucks for artists who have
Speaker 1: experienced it and want to speak to it and there aren't,
Speaker 1: Like it kind of sucks. It's like if the worst
Speaker 1: thing you've ever been through you want to make some
Speaker 1: sort of artistic expression of that, and then you're like,
Speaker 1: but I have to make it really fucking obvious or
Speaker 1: people are gonna think I'm endorsing the worst thing that's
Speaker 1: ever happened to me. Like it's such a catch twenty
Speaker 1: two of the Like, it's really frustrating. It's really frustrating.
Speaker 1: Like I don't think it's necessarily like I think you
Speaker 1: can hold Casey Lemons personally accountable for allowing that scene
Speaker 1: to be shot and that that is like ultimately on her,
Speaker 1: but in terms of how people misinterpret her work when
Speaker 1: all the answers are there, like I mean, it's like
Speaker 1: I think that it is, like it would be better
Speaker 1: served if it were made extremely clear. But I also
Speaker 1: don't want to be like, and Casey Lemons is wrong
Speaker 1: for not having done that, because it's like she clearly knows,
Speaker 1: you know, like she gave us all the you know,
Speaker 1: it's like what if? What was that? What was that
Speaker 1: ridiculous movie? That's like Mr Policeman, I gave you all
Speaker 1: the clues. That's literally Casey Lemons in this script like
Speaker 1: she gave you all the clues, you did not solve
Speaker 1: the case. And that is on society, right, Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: well how about this. Let's take a quick break and
Speaker 1: really collect ourselves and will come back for more and
Speaker 1: we're back, all right, where shall we pivot? I know,
Speaker 1: I feel poorn, Jamie. It's like all childhood, all talking
Speaker 1: about childhood sexual assault all the time for you, now right,
Speaker 1: it is my new area of expertise. I hate it.
Speaker 1: But but there's so much else to talk about with
Speaker 1: this movie as well. Yes, where should we start? Well,
Speaker 1: first of all, one thing that is very much worth
Speaker 1: noting is that this is a coming of age story
Speaker 1: for a black girl, which is something that we almost
Speaker 1: never see in Hollywood cinema. It is a kind of
Speaker 1: narrative arc that is reserved almost exclusively for white children.
Speaker 1: So the fact that a black girl is the focus
Speaker 1: is awesome. That it is a story fraught with such
Speaker 1: like turmoil and trauma is I guess what I'm saying
Speaker 1: is I would love to see more coming of age
Speaker 1: stories about black indigenous people of color that are less
Speaker 1: steeped in so much trauma and are focused on more,
Speaker 1: you know, some of the more joyous aspects of coming
Speaker 1: of age. But even so, um, this is kind of
Speaker 1: a monumental film, and that it is one of the
Speaker 1: few coming of age stories about a black girl and
Speaker 1: black children. So yeah, and I think, like, you know,
Speaker 1: we've talked a lot about some of the heavier aspects
Speaker 1: of this film, but there are you know, the film
Speaker 1: it's not it's not entirely heavy, right, Like Eve has
Speaker 1: a good relationship with her sister and brother. You get
Speaker 1: to see, like there are some scenes of Sicily and
Speaker 1: Eve interacting that I that I really liked. It's like,
Speaker 1: oh you get you get to see like the tenderness
Speaker 1: of girlhood when she puts the snake on her brother
Speaker 1: post pillow, like you get to see the like, you know, mischievousness. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's like you know, I there there were parts of
Speaker 1: it that I thought were nice to be depicted. Also,
Speaker 1: it's like, I mean, I'm a sucker for like Louisiana
Speaker 1: kind of that like like languid, like you know, oh
Speaker 1: like the Bayou and the and the Weeping Willows. Like
Speaker 1: it's quite a picturesque movie, and like it it depicts
Speaker 1: the outdoors in a really beautiful way. And like, we
Speaker 1: don't get a lot of movies where it's about black
Speaker 1: girlhood on the backdrop of outdoor beauty. That's something that
Speaker 1: like I love and you don't get a lot of. Um,
Speaker 1: So this movie, there is a lot of like in
Speaker 1: addition to the heavier aspects of it that we've talked about,
Speaker 1: there is some like joy, There is some like beauty,
Speaker 1: you know what. I think it really does a nice
Speaker 1: job of depicting some elements of black girlhood that we
Speaker 1: don't necessarily to see explored on screen very often. For sure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there are those scenes that like are scenes of levity
Speaker 1: I love and are probably my favorite scenes in the movie,
Speaker 1: especially that kind of chunk where they're all cooped up
Speaker 1: in the house and everyone's just like playing pranks on
Speaker 1: each other or um again, that scene where Eve is
Speaker 1: just sort of lashing out and yelling at everyone. And yeah,
Speaker 1: like you said, I mean, you see these really interesting
Speaker 1: relationships between women and girls. You see this relationship between
Speaker 1: the two sisters, You see mother daughter relationships. You see
Speaker 1: even her aunt Moselle, all these female relationships being explored
Speaker 1: again in a way that like most movies don't bother
Speaker 1: And with Eve specifically, I mean, she's just like a
Speaker 1: really cool character. I feel like it's like people very
Speaker 1: I don't know, writers really often kind of missed the
Speaker 1: mark on like making a highly motivated and like fun
Speaker 1: child character who was also clearly constricted by the limits
Speaker 1: that childhood imposes on you. And I feel like the
Speaker 1: way that Casey Lemon's rights, Eve really like toes that
Speaker 1: line in a cool way, because it's like even honestly,
Speaker 1: like when I first read the kind of synopsis of
Speaker 1: this movie, I thought this whole movie was going to
Speaker 1: be like Eve being successfully gas lit by her family
Speaker 1: that this never happened, and I was pleasantly surprised that
Speaker 1: she For the most part, it's like she retains her
Speaker 1: truth of what happened pretty consistently, and she is like
Speaker 1: frustrated and confused that the people in her life are
Speaker 1: trying to tell her it didn't happen. Like her dad
Speaker 1: immediately is like, don't worry, that was nothing. That was nothing,
Speaker 1: And then she goes to Cecily, which I honestly read
Speaker 1: of like Cecily probably not like I don't know. I
Speaker 1: I think with some of Cecily's storylines, I plugged myself
Speaker 1: into like big sister mode and thought, like, you know,
Speaker 1: if my little brother came to me saying that he
Speaker 1: had seen, you know, my dad doing something awful that
Speaker 1: I already knew about, I probably would you know, at
Speaker 1: that age, would have like defaulted to be like no,
Speaker 1: no, no no, no, no, no, don't worry, because you don't
Speaker 1: want your younger sibling to take on the same like
Speaker 1: psychic weight of how funked up your parents are that
Speaker 1: you do. And so it's like, but Eve still knows
Speaker 1: pretty consistently, like she tells the same story every time.
Speaker 1: She's like, and it's more like I know it, I saw,
Speaker 1: but everyone keeps telling me it's not true. And the
Speaker 1: question is more like why is that? As opposed to
Speaker 1: like I must be wrong? Like I like how confident
Speaker 1: she is in what she saw, And it's like more
Speaker 1: navigating her confusion of like why are people avoiding this
Speaker 1: uncomfortable truth? Yeah, and she doesn't avoid it as soon
Speaker 1: as Cecily tells her, She's like, let's kill Dad, Like
Speaker 1: she like, let's set up kill him. It's amazing, Like,
Speaker 1: and I think importantly, you know, Cecily makes up that
Speaker 1: story of like, oh you know, uh, the the woman
Speaker 1: fell into dad and they were laughing, blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: And then later she's like, I I as soon as
Speaker 1: you said it, I believed you. You know. So you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's clear that like, you know, Cecily deep down
Speaker 1: know she's telling the truth. And really it is it
Speaker 1: is eves unfaltering ability to see the truth and speak
Speaker 1: the truth throughout the movie, and that you're right. It's
Speaker 1: important to note that she doesn't falter, that she's like, no,
Speaker 1: I know what I saw, I know what's going on.
Speaker 1: I'm going to continue to speak on it, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: That that which kind of like brings to this the
Speaker 1: like the cycle of like gaslighting that it's I don't know,
Speaker 1: like the yeah, the cycle of gaslighting that takes place
Speaker 1: with the women in this family and kind of how
Speaker 1: that is structured it like I felt somewhat familiar to
Speaker 1: me in a lot of ways, especially I mean this
Speaker 1: has taking place in this sixties, right, So we are
Speaker 1: to sort of assume that her mother Roz, like there's
Speaker 1: not a ton of career options, there's not a you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of welcomeness to the idea of being divorced,
Speaker 1: of being a single parent, and like her autonomy is
Speaker 1: fairly limited by being married to this powerful man in
Speaker 1: the community, and she seems to be very aware of
Speaker 1: that um And so it's it's like broke my heart
Speaker 1: at all these different points in the movie to see
Speaker 1: these relationships between women kind of be like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: like passing on this generational guilt and this generational trauma
Speaker 1: onto each other because it's like, I don't know, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I was like trying to think of how
Speaker 1: to phrase this correctly, but I feel like at times
Speaker 1: like ros is a shitty parent. At a bunch of
Speaker 1: different points, she locks her kids in the house for
Speaker 1: no reason really. When Eve confronts her with the truth,
Speaker 1: she can't handle it, and so instead she punished as
Speaker 1: her kids who are trying to understand what's going on
Speaker 1: in their own household. But you know that it's coming
Speaker 1: from this place of deep trauma that she holds and
Speaker 1: instead of I don't know. It's just so hopeless in
Speaker 1: some ways because it's like, well, who could Ross turn
Speaker 1: to that could really help her, Like she knows that
Speaker 1: she doesn't really have anyone who can help her, and
Speaker 1: so instead like she's kind of to some extent protect
Speaker 1: that she I think she thinks she's protecting her kids,
Speaker 1: but in a lot of ways she's like taking it
Speaker 1: out and her kids. It's just I just really see
Speaker 1: the ways in this movie that the adults are making
Speaker 1: their traumas, their hang ups, their issues, they're just putting
Speaker 1: them on their kids, and they're really things that are
Speaker 1: just too heavy for their kids because their kids right
Speaker 1: right right, there's that scene to where Ros and Mozelle
Speaker 1: are like taking a stroll and then they like come
Speaker 1: up on that market. But before that, Ros is like complaining,
Speaker 1: like confiding in Moselle about her like crumbling marriage and
Speaker 1: how you know her husband who's unfaithful, and Moselle is
Speaker 1: just like, well, um just waited around, and you know
Speaker 1: one day he'll finally see what he already has and
Speaker 1: he'll stop chasing for it. And it's like that's not
Speaker 1: good advice. But I in seeing that, like I also
Speaker 1: believe that Moselle knows that's not true. Like I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's I guess maybe like this was my intern, but
Speaker 1: it just felt like most of the like the grown
Speaker 1: women in this movie were all pretty aware that like
Speaker 1: Louis was not a good father or a good husband,
Speaker 1: he was just a good provider. And then that was
Speaker 1: like there wasn't much they could do about it, and
Speaker 1: like it's just I don't know. It made me so sad.
Speaker 1: And and the relationship between Cecily and Roz as well,
Speaker 1: like I feel like speaks a lot too. Why Cecily
Speaker 1: reacts the way she does in some moments where like
Speaker 1: her attempts to rebel and challenge her her mom's pretty
Speaker 1: like irrational ways of dealing with her kids are met
Speaker 1: with like violence and like threats, like she is like
Speaker 1: hit by her mom. And then when it seems like
Speaker 1: ros might be trying to kind of like reconcile with her,
Speaker 1: she's like, I understand, like I see a lot of
Speaker 1: myself in you, but if you do something like that again,
Speaker 1: you're fucked. And it's like, well, then why would Cecily
Speaker 1: feel comfortable going to her mother with this abuse that
Speaker 1: she experienced, Like her mother's kind of made it clear
Speaker 1: that she's not open to hearing it, like she's very
Speaker 1: closed off and you understand why too. So it's just
Speaker 1: like ah, yeah, yeah, there's the scene when Roz slaps Cecily.
Speaker 1: You know, something that I think is important to know
Speaker 1: is that Cecily, you know, Roz has had all the
Speaker 1: kids trapped in the house, fucking version suicide style if
Speaker 1: they can't leave. And that's like what I was thinking
Speaker 1: the whole time. I was like minding me of the
Speaker 1: version suicide. Um, it's it's it's similar. Is there's some
Speaker 1: there's some interesting you know. And also I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: like shout out to that quarantine life. I know all
Speaker 1: about it. Um. But so so when Cecily goes to
Speaker 1: the hairdresser, this is just something that like I picked
Speaker 1: up on as a like black girl who was raised
Speaker 1: by a black mom. You know, in the whole movie,
Speaker 1: Cecily has very long hair, and when she goes to
Speaker 1: the beauty parlor, she comes back and her hair has
Speaker 1: been cut, And so I know that like that, like
Speaker 1: my mom and I have that exact same argument where
Speaker 1: I like, I think it is a symbol of a
Speaker 1: certain kind of black girlhood to have like long, straight
Speaker 1: hair past your shoulders. And Cecily being like, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm a I'm a I'm asserting my own body autonomy.
Speaker 1: I'm going to cut my hair. When she takes off
Speaker 1: that rain hood and her mom sees that her hair
Speaker 1: has been cut, that's like a that's like a shift, right.
Speaker 1: She's like, you know, this girl thinks she's grown. And
Speaker 1: I think like that is another part of the dynamic
Speaker 1: I think is there between them where Cecily is really
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what it means for her to be,
Speaker 1: like go from girlhood to like young womanhood, and her
Speaker 1: mom is clearly not able to shepherd her over that
Speaker 1: threshold in a way that you would want any you
Speaker 1: would want your mom to be. That's like what we
Speaker 1: were saying, like like her mom is not able to
Speaker 1: be there for her, not not open to hearing what
Speaker 1: she has to say. And I think that, Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: not surprising to me that Cecily would be completely not
Speaker 1: able to open up to her mom about what's actually
Speaker 1: going on in her life because her mom has has
Speaker 1: made it clear that what's important to her is not
Speaker 1: how her kid is doing, what her kids needs, It's
Speaker 1: about kind of trying to maintain some sense of order
Speaker 1: in this increasingly chaotic household. Yeah, absolutely, and the way
Speaker 1: that like I don't know that I thought that this
Speaker 1: was like this was like such a story of like
Speaker 1: women and girls processing guilt and like taking on so
Speaker 1: much guilt for things that it's like no, no, no,
Speaker 1: Like there's so many moments and I feel like it
Speaker 1: happens with by the end, it happens to Eve as well.
Speaker 1: But it's like, you know, Moselle is really guilt ridden
Speaker 1: for feeling that she is responsible for the death of
Speaker 1: her first husband when it's like she did not put Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I'm talking about the specifically the one that got
Speaker 1: shot in the joke, but like she Yeah, she's kind
Speaker 1: of taken on this guilt and it's like I am
Speaker 1: a murderer when it's like it is not ideal to
Speaker 1: she done your spouse, but that does not make you
Speaker 1: responsible for their murder, you know what I mean? And
Speaker 1: like there's that guilt. We see Raws take on guilt
Speaker 1: when Cecily becomes more withdrawn and it's like, is it
Speaker 1: because I did this? I did this? And in that way,
Speaker 1: she's kind of right because she did hit her daughter,
Speaker 1: But like it's just like you see every woman and
Speaker 1: girl in this story to some degree, whether they're right
Speaker 1: to be doing it or not, just take on a
Speaker 1: massive amount of guilt. And you don't see any man
Speaker 1: in this story. Like Samuel L. Jackson's whole narrative is
Speaker 1: his ability to deflect guilt and deflect the idea that
Speaker 1: he could do something wrong, where meanwhile he's surrounded by
Speaker 1: women who are taking on that guilt for him and
Speaker 1: then also taking on additional guilt for things that they
Speaker 1: have nothing to do with their own actions. Yes, like
Speaker 1: that one guy shoots Samuel L. Jackson, that's a friend
Speaker 1: of his. You never, like, you just never hear from
Speaker 1: him again. It's like, oh yeah, Like they don't even
Speaker 1: like explore it. That's why I'm really happy that at
Speaker 1: the end, Mozelle, who has taken on all this guilt,
Speaker 1: she meets her like long haired, jeans wearing painter lover
Speaker 1: who like, I'm just assuming all they're doing is fucking,
Speaker 1: and she's getting portraits of herself painted and like by
Speaker 1: the end she's like, yeah, I'm marrying him. I don't
Speaker 1: care what that that old witch said. I'm going to
Speaker 1: marry him, and like maybe we'll die together, like I'm
Speaker 1: happy that by the end of the movie she has
Speaker 1: had a trajectory where she's like, yeah, I can continue
Speaker 1: to I'm deserving of love. I can continue to seek
Speaker 1: out love and marry, marry a man who loves me,
Speaker 1: you know, and like spend the rest of my days
Speaker 1: like getting my portrait painted. I love that she like
Speaker 1: chooses joy at the end, and like almost I don't know,
Speaker 1: I kind of I would really be curious of like
Speaker 1: Casey Lemons thought about kind of that platfoint, but I
Speaker 1: felt like that's almost like a severing of this like
Speaker 1: quote unquote curse that it seems like a haunting this
Speaker 1: family when it's like, no, it's she's gonna assert what
Speaker 1: she wants. She's gonna like that's nice. I want I
Speaker 1: want the best for her. And I thought it was
Speaker 1: really interesting with Moselle as well, that I don't know
Speaker 1: she's like, first of all, like the performance by Debbie
Speaker 1: Morgan is like it's so good. But on top of that,
Speaker 1: like where I thought it was interesting that she is,
Speaker 1: you know, Samuel L. Jackson's sister, and to watch her
Speaker 1: it felt very like of this time that she is
Speaker 1: like kind of defensive about him, like if something comes
Speaker 1: up with him, whether it's from Ros, whether it's from Eve,
Speaker 1: whether it's from Sicily, She's always like, we're not talking
Speaker 1: about that. I can even believe you, and we're not
Speaker 1: talking about that. But then you find out at the
Speaker 1: end of the movie, you know it's not enough, right
Speaker 1: because she should be taking these women who she loves
Speaker 1: seriously and at their word over her brother, who she
Speaker 1: we know knows is an abusive person. How much power
Speaker 1: she has to stop it is kind of up for question,
Speaker 1: but like she could. I just thought it was interesting
Speaker 1: at the end that the movie kind of goes out
Speaker 1: of its way to tell you that there was a
Speaker 1: confrontation between them that where where Moselle said explicitly like
Speaker 1: how could you have done this to my niece? What
Speaker 1: the funk it? Like, it's clear that they came to
Speaker 1: blows about this, and then Moselle did believe Cecily the
Speaker 1: entire time, and that like, I don't know, it's it
Speaker 1: just like again, it just like felt familiar in a
Speaker 1: really frustrating way of like just how imperfectly and frustrating
Speaker 1: these things can fall out where you can like talk
Speaker 1: to someone and be like I don't think that person
Speaker 1: believed me, when in fact they may have, but they
Speaker 1: didn't know how to deal with it, and so then
Speaker 1: they go to yell at someone else and just like
Speaker 1: this whole I don't know the way that like trauma
Speaker 1: could be passed on through this whole chain of events
Speaker 1: and interactions and like it's all done so imperfectly, and
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's just also messy, but you also
Speaker 1: sort of at least can understand where most people are
Speaker 1: coming from, even if you disagree, Like, ah, but isn't
Speaker 1: that how it is? Like I mean that that quote
Speaker 1: that that Caitlin opened the episode with this like so
Speaker 1: is so spot on, Like isn't that how it is?
Speaker 1: Like there are so many things from my childhood where
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, like this thing happened, and you know
Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't like it, but you know, I
Speaker 1: can understand where they're coming I can understand why she
Speaker 1: did this, she was trying to protect me whatever. Like
Speaker 1: I think that when you go back and you deconstruct
Speaker 1: your memories that were so complicated and fraud I think
Speaker 1: that it's always like this sort of frustrating and unsatisfying,
Speaker 1: but but also kind of you can sort of see
Speaker 1: where they're coming from, if that makes sense. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: feel like I mean that's like I don't know, that's
Speaker 1: like I definitely feel that way about my parents a
Speaker 1: lot at the time of Like, God, I the execution
Speaker 1: was extraordinarily bad, but I can like acknowledge what they
Speaker 1: were going through while they were making those decisions and
Speaker 1: still think they were wrong for A, B and C.
Speaker 1: And just like that, especially the fact that this movie,
Speaker 1: you know, it takes place in the nineteen sixties, where
Speaker 1: like the power dynamics are even huger, and like the
Speaker 1: disparity of how much power these women would have had
Speaker 1: to get away from this guy. It seems like that there.
Speaker 1: You know, it's the only reason that Moselle is kind
Speaker 1: of like making her own living is because she doesn't
Speaker 1: have another option. M Well, that might bring us to
Speaker 1: a quick discussion on the way voodoo is represented in
Speaker 1: the movie. So we talked about this on our Princess
Speaker 1: and the Frog episode about how voodoo is often very
Speaker 1: wildly misrepresented in Hollywood, and that really extends to any
Speaker 1: African diaspora religion, but you know, voodoo is the one
Speaker 1: that is most popularly depicted in Hollywood. The representation usually
Speaker 1: paints these religions as being just like rooted in evil.
Speaker 1: It's like dark magic, there's violence, and the demonization of
Speaker 1: these religions has everything to do with racism. So I
Speaker 1: was like, I was curious about just like how voodoo
Speaker 1: in this movie is represented, because it's a pretty big
Speaker 1: compoe of the story we see practice. I don't know
Speaker 1: how authentic um the practices of voodoo are. I couldn't
Speaker 1: find any writing on how well Louisiana voodoo is represented
Speaker 1: specifically in this film, and I don't know enough about
Speaker 1: the religion to comment on it, but I did read
Speaker 1: the Casey Lemons said she didn't really do any research
Speaker 1: on voodoo before writing the movie, and it shove. I
Speaker 1: was like, it does. I was just like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: guess that this is like all it does seem kind
Speaker 1: of like off the top of your head, like rehashing
Speaker 1: of things that we've seen of like how how voodoo
Speaker 1: has been represented in other movies. Yeah, I honestly didn't
Speaker 1: do a ton of research on this end and kind
Speaker 1: of went in with the assumption that because I looked
Speaker 1: into like Casey Lemons is like back history of like, Okay,
Speaker 1: so I can't find any reason that she would know.
Speaker 1: And then I was like, I'm just assuming that it's wrong.
Speaker 1: Every time you see like voodoo represented in American movies,
Speaker 1: I just kind of I'm like, I'm assuming this is
Speaker 1: way off. But I don't know. I feel the same way.
Speaker 1: I mean, I couldn't tell you if this is like
Speaker 1: an authentic depiction of Louisiana voodoo. I'm going to assume
Speaker 1: not because it was nineteen seven, and I think that, like,
Speaker 1: you know, there are certain like visual signifiers that I
Speaker 1: think are there that I'm like, oh, yeah, she probably
Speaker 1: and like no offense to her. She probably was just
Speaker 1: like yeah, put her the like voodoo practitioner in a
Speaker 1: certain outfit and call it a day, right, Like there's
Speaker 1: that scene where she's got her face painted white, Like
Speaker 1: I think she was like, I want to have some
Speaker 1: clear visual markers so that people are like, yep, this
Speaker 1: is voodoo happening. I don't know that. I don't know
Speaker 1: that I would say that she went too deep into it,
Speaker 1: that's my read. Yeah, I would say at the very least,
Speaker 1: there are some things that the movie manages to avoid
Speaker 1: that we've seen play out in other movies where like
Speaker 1: Eve goes to Elzora and she's expecting in return a
Speaker 1: voodoo doll, and Elzora is like, no, that's not a thing.
Speaker 1: I did another thing to try to kill your father,
Speaker 1: but not a doll, because like, the voodoo doll is
Speaker 1: not an actual thing in the real voodoo religion, or
Speaker 1: at least not the way that is the way we
Speaker 1: see voodoo dolls in Hollywood. That's not accurate. And I
Speaker 1: at least appreciate that the way that Samuel and Jackson's
Speaker 1: character dies is because he gets shot by a man
Speaker 1: who was pretty explicitly or implicitly told that his wife
Speaker 1: was cheating on him, and not because like voodoo killed him.
Speaker 1: So at least the movie avoids those types of things.
Speaker 1: But it's just that Eve thinks that that's what happened,
Speaker 1: like they're even Yeah, I was confused. I was like,
Speaker 1: for a second, I like almost got galaxy brain about
Speaker 1: it because I thought, you know, it's like, okay, maybe
Speaker 1: it's like because you know, like there's a lot of
Speaker 1: people who present as like, oh, you know, like I
Speaker 1: am a psychic, and they're actually not, and they're kind
Speaker 1: of just like being touristy. I was like, maybe that's
Speaker 1: what Elsora is supposed to be as kind of like
Speaker 1: because that's what Moselle says. It's like, Oh, she's just
Speaker 1: like a tourist, Like she comes to the market. You know,
Speaker 1: she's a side show attraction because we see that misrepresentation
Speaker 1: all the time, kind of at any large carnivalry event
Speaker 1: of like this fraud. But then we're kind of led
Speaker 1: to believe that she is not a fraud. But then
Speaker 1: also I guess that was the question I left the
Speaker 1: movie with him, like was she a fraud or not?
Speaker 1: Because there were certain elements of her that kind of
Speaker 1: reminded me of like that scene in The Wizard of
Speaker 1: Oz where the wizard is going through basket while her
Speaker 1: thing is closed. Like sometimes I was getting that by
Speaker 1: but then other times I was like, is she a fraud?
Speaker 1: Like I don't know. I don't know, because she gets
Speaker 1: it right with ros right, she's like wait, wait a while.
Speaker 1: But if she doesn't need to wait three years, does she,
Speaker 1: like she well, maybe it takes three years for them
Speaker 1: to like just fully recover or like heal from their grief.
Speaker 1: It's like it's clear to us that Moselle and Eve's like,
Speaker 1: I don't even know, Like their ability to see the
Speaker 1: future is authentic, and that is like in text true,
Speaker 1: But I still was not clear on whether el Zora
Speaker 1: was legit or not. I wasn't sure. Let's also keep
Speaker 1: in mind that Elzora charges even twenty dollars to kill
Speaker 1: a man. That's I mean, come on, sixties money. I
Speaker 1: actually looked it up the the inflation it will be
Speaker 1: two sixteen dollars they're about today to kill a man.
Speaker 1: She grifted a child, Like yeah, what are the what
Speaker 1: are the ethics of her like accepting money from a
Speaker 1: literal child to kill a man? Like I just have
Speaker 1: a lot of time, It's it's murky, I would think. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'd be curious of like listeners who have seen this
Speaker 1: movie what your impression was, because by the end I
Speaker 1: sort of felt like she's the Wizard of Us, like
Speaker 1: she only because the people who can genuinely see into
Speaker 1: the future to some extent, we are like told visually
Speaker 1: explicitly that that is true, and you don't ever get
Speaker 1: that for Elzaura. So I wasn't sure. I wasn't sure.
Speaker 1: I know that definitely, the presentation of voodoo is like
Speaker 1: off in this movie. It's definitely not like a faithful,
Speaker 1: you know thing. But but I wasn't sure if like
Speaker 1: we were supposed to go through this being like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, Elzora is kind of like doing this touristy
Speaker 1: act that Eve believes because she's a kid. You know,
Speaker 1: she gave this woman two hundred dollars. Oh my god. Stressful.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm I'm curious to hear from any listeners
Speaker 1: who have a more in depth understanding of actual voodoo practices,
Speaker 1: just how you feel about this movie's depiction of voodoo. Yeah, Um,
Speaker 1: does anyone have any other thoughts on the movie? I
Speaker 1: wanted to I had, I had a few things. I
Speaker 1: wanted to just kind of shout out the team behind
Speaker 1: this movie that we do not. I mean, it goes
Speaker 1: without saying that black women writing and directing their own
Speaker 1: movies is such a huge I mean, especially just was
Speaker 1: not happening very much. And so in terms of like
Speaker 1: the background of this movie, you will not be surprised.
Speaker 1: It's like the I feel like, and this is true
Speaker 1: with female directors kind of generally you get a lot
Speaker 1: of that actor to director pipeline because Casey Lemons was
Speaker 1: already an established director and I feel like you an
Speaker 1: established actor or sorry, an established actor. Yeah, and then
Speaker 1: she doesn't direct her first movie to her late thirties,
Speaker 1: and I can think of like five women off the
Speaker 1: top of my head who that's true for right now. Um,
Speaker 1: and how like that is kind of it seems like
Speaker 1: the most not to say, I mean, there's plenty of
Speaker 1: female directors who that is not the case for, but
Speaker 1: it seems like the most efficient current pipeline for female directors.
Speaker 1: And that's where Casey Lemons comes from. And then she
Speaker 1: makes like animazing. But she was like an established actor
Speaker 1: who started writing and directing because she was dissatisfied with
Speaker 1: the roles she was getting as an actor, these like
Speaker 1: very you know, like oh, I'm the black best friend
Speaker 1: or I'm just like this kind of like sidelined character.
Speaker 1: And so she just took it upon herself to start
Speaker 1: writing stories from her own perspective, which is amazing. And
Speaker 1: I also every time I see the actor to director pipeline,
Speaker 1: I'm like, why can't they Why can't we just be directors?
Speaker 1: Why is that pipeline not available? That said, I'm very
Speaker 1: glad that Kasey Lemons was able to create all these
Speaker 1: like amazing media roles that she wasn't able to play originally.
Speaker 1: We also have a few different kind of rarities behind
Speaker 1: the scenes, which I feel like sometimes we get great
Speaker 1: representation in front of the camera and then behind it's
Speaker 1: like more white guys. Uh this. We have a a
Speaker 1: female cinematographer, Amy Vincent, who you have almost certainly seen
Speaker 1: a lot of her work. She did two of my
Speaker 1: favorite youth movies. She also did Jawbreaker and the Lemony
Speaker 1: Snaket movie. But she's a love job breaker. It's so good.
Speaker 1: We've got to cover Jawbreaker. Sometimes she's done. She's done.
Speaker 1: She's done a lot. More like she's like I think,
Speaker 1: one of kind of the iconic female cinematographers. Um, she's
Speaker 1: done a whole lot. She did I Hurt Huckabees if
Speaker 1: you care, I guess, uh, and Oh my God, and
Speaker 1: that horrible Seth McFarland movie, A Million Ways to Die
Speaker 1: in the West, So you know, she has a wide
Speaker 1: variety of things she's done. Um. We also have a
Speaker 1: black female editor, which is like I feel like there's
Speaker 1: of all the positions in Hollywood, they are overwhelmingly white
Speaker 1: as editor like may in fact take the cake. And yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a black female editor of this movie. Her name
Speaker 1: is Tara Lynn shop Share. I hope I'm saying that right. Um,
Speaker 1: she also edited Love and Basketball when they see us
Speaker 1: Secret Life of Bees, and like, there's all these like
Speaker 1: amazing projects in I think one of the like most
Speaker 1: white male dominated areas of movie. Love and Basketball another
Speaker 1: black classic, right, yes, that is a classic. So she
Speaker 1: seems like she's just, you know, kind of an icon
Speaker 1: in that field. Just like a lot of great representation
Speaker 1: behind the camera as well, and like the t I mean,
Speaker 1: everything in this movie jels so well. The and also
Speaker 1: I didn't know Kasey Lemon's studied cinematography in college as well,
Speaker 1: so you have to imagine she's bringing some stuff to
Speaker 1: the cinematography too. And it's all You're like, Wow, more
Speaker 1: movies should be made like this. There's also, um, it's
Speaker 1: a man, but a black composer. Terrence Blanchard opposed the
Speaker 1: score Jazz Legend and he uh guide but he plays
Speaker 1: the trumph and then he won an Academy Award for
Speaker 1: Black Klansman a couple of years ago. Oh that's right,
Speaker 1: That's why I know that name. Yeah, he and and
Speaker 1: then I guess he and I. He and Casey Lemons
Speaker 1: also wrote an opera together, or they were supposed to,
Speaker 1: and then COVID hit and now they're going to release
Speaker 1: their opera later. Like I love. I love when collaborators
Speaker 1: like working together and then they do a bunch of
Speaker 1: like weird ship Like I'm like, yeah, sure, write an opera,
Speaker 1: why not like Casey Lemons opera. I guess you know,
Speaker 1: if it's safe to see, I would see it. Um.
Speaker 1: So I just I was. I really loved just how
Speaker 1: like how my representation there was behind the camera, definitely,
Speaker 1: especially in those like those are like three very major roles,
Speaker 1: you know, what is it they called like the top
Speaker 1: like this this top six title card whatever roles, and
Speaker 1: like they're almost always given to white men in Hollywood productions.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that was awesome And for nineteen I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: pretty good. The other So shooting started on this movie
Speaker 1: and Casey Lemons was either pregnant, gregnant, um or she
Speaker 1: had just given birth to her first child. I couldn't
Speaker 1: really figure out exactly what the timeline was there, but
Speaker 1: I was like, that is cool, because like society has
Speaker 1: this image of women that if like you're a mother,
Speaker 1: you especially like a new mother, or if you're pregnant,
Speaker 1: you can't work, or if you're a working woman, you
Speaker 1: can't be a mother. So like she was just like, no,
Speaker 1: like I'm going to make this movie and I'm also
Speaker 1: a mother and two things can be true. Love that
Speaker 1: for her. I think you're so right that we have
Speaker 1: this misconception that I a woman has a baby, she
Speaker 1: may as well just like crawl into a grave and
Speaker 1: die for a few years. Yeah, that's I didn't know that.
Speaker 1: That's really cool. Um. Yeah, the last two production e
Speaker 1: Slash reception things are no, it's about men, but I
Speaker 1: thought that they were interesting. They I think, as is
Speaker 1: also very common in this case woman and particularly like
Speaker 1: a woman of color making her first movie. She needed
Speaker 1: a very powerful man to co sign on the project
Speaker 1: before it could be made. So this project was kind
Speaker 1: of like languishing the script. It existed for some time
Speaker 1: and it wasn't until Samuel L. Jackson was like, I'll
Speaker 1: star in the movie, okay, and then you could get made.
Speaker 1: So it's like, you know, it's it's definitely not ideal.
Speaker 1: That's something that needs to keep changing. But I do
Speaker 1: like to see powerful men using that power to like
Speaker 1: bring new talent into the folds. And so that was cool.
Speaker 1: This was also this is kind of neither here nor there.
Speaker 1: I just was like genuinely really surprised because we are
Speaker 1: always talking about Roger. Yeah, I was like, because we
Speaker 1: have been dragging Roger Ebert NonStop correctly for years, because
Speaker 1: he just like sucks. He generally has no idea what
Speaker 1: anyone like, any story that is not for him explode
Speaker 1: at lee. He's like confusing, hated it, negative stars, hated
Speaker 1: it for losers. But uh in in kind of a
Speaker 1: shocking he'll turn here. Roger Ebert named this movie hit
Speaker 1: the best film of Wow. That that is surprising to me.
Speaker 1: That is very surprising to me because he I have
Speaker 1: my own feelings about him that I find not surprising. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I did too. I was like, wow, Okay, at least
Speaker 1: he's a Cathy Lemon stand. I Like, it's not you know,
Speaker 1: it's something. It might have been Chas Ebert his wife's doing.
Speaker 1: That might have been chairs. She's like, give me this
Speaker 1: one thing. But I wonder if his sort of championing
Speaker 1: this movie led to another fact about this movie, which
Speaker 1: is that it was the highest grossing independent film of
Speaker 1: nine seven, So I wonder if he was like ringing endorsement,
Speaker 1: like encourage more people to go see it, because it
Speaker 1: had a four million dollar budget and it grossed fifteen
Speaker 1: million at the box office, which again doesn't feel it
Speaker 1: doesn't sound huge, but for an independent movie, fifty million
Speaker 1: dollars at the box office pretty significant. Seven money too,
Speaker 1: Like that's that, Yeah, that's big. I do wonder, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I do, because I feel like, for all of its
Speaker 1: issues that we have talked about at length, at this point,
Speaker 1: I am surprised that this movie is not like that
Speaker 1: not everybody knows about it. It seems like a real
Speaker 1: like classic of its genre, and it does so much
Speaker 1: that not many movies are doing. And so I guess
Speaker 1: I was glad that Ebert pushed it. It just I
Speaker 1: don't know. Ultimately, I'm like, I just wish more people
Speaker 1: knew about this movie. I wish it was like more taught.
Speaker 1: I wish it was more discussed, like and I wish that.
Speaker 1: I think that honestly, it's the sort of thing where
Speaker 1: at the time had the fucking and I know that
Speaker 1: we're always like the Golden Globes are for losers, right,
Speaker 1: oscars are for losers? Like it almost call without saying,
Speaker 1: but being recognized in some way by those institutions does
Speaker 1: sort of, I feel like, have an effect on solidifying
Speaker 1: certain movies as movies worth remembering and movies worth recognizing.
Speaker 1: And I just wish that this movie had been recognized
Speaker 1: more by those institutions. And I wonder if if they had, like,
Speaker 1: would it be a movie that we would just be
Speaker 1: hearing more about now? Like, Yeah, I wish I'd seen
Speaker 1: this movie sooner. For for all of its flaws, I
Speaker 1: really it's doing so much that movies of its time
Speaker 1: we're not attempting. Well, if you'd grown up in my house,
Speaker 1: you would have had it on VHS and it would
Speaker 1: have been one of five movies like you a Little
Speaker 1: Cabinet that one could watch if they wanted the movie Cabinet.
Speaker 1: My mom had the fucking CBS Ron Perlman, Beauty and
Speaker 1: the Beast on VHS and talk about a classic, horny classic,
Speaker 1: Linda Hamilton's and Ron that we will not be covering
Speaker 1: it on the show, but boy have I seen a
Speaker 1: lot of it. Oh goodness, is is there anything else
Speaker 1: anyone wants to discuss I mean the episodes longer than
Speaker 1: the movie at this point, I don't Isn't that true
Speaker 1: of literally all of our episodes within the past two years.
Speaker 1: It's true. Speaking of which, my Chicken Run posters coming
Speaker 1: in the mail today, I'm very excited Ginger is on
Speaker 1: her way. Hell yeah, Uh, well, it probably comes as
Speaker 1: no surprise that this movie does pass the Bechdel test.
Speaker 1: Women are interacting. Women and girls are interacting in this
Speaker 1: movie with each other a lot, and the DuVernay test
Speaker 1: as well. Yes, indeed, Um, the female characters are talking
Speaker 1: a lot about men and a lot of scenes either
Speaker 1: like about Louis or about Mozelle's husbands. But there are
Speaker 1: still quite a few scenes that pass the Bechdel test. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I guess that brings us to our our nipple scale,
Speaker 1: where we examine the movie based on just intersectional feminism,
Speaker 1: and I think this movie is going to break my
Speaker 1: brain trying to assign it a nipple number. Um. I
Speaker 1: think I want to give it three or three and
Speaker 1: a half because, as we've discussed that, like, the information
Speaker 1: is there that allows for a pretty clear interpretation that
Speaker 1: Cecily is a survivor of abuse and that her father
Speaker 1: is an abuser, and I appreciate that this movie is
Speaker 1: trying to tackle this subject matter, and I think that
Speaker 1: the intent was to approach it responsibly. However, I do
Speaker 1: still feel that the movie ends in a way that
Speaker 1: allows room for interpretation and for a different reading, which
Speaker 1: again I think is a very dangerous thing to do
Speaker 1: in regards to child set abuse. That said, it's still
Speaker 1: an important piece of Black cinema and of cinema in general. Um,
Speaker 1: I don't know. Oh gosh, yeah, I guess three and
Speaker 1: a half and I'll kind of distribute them evenly to
Speaker 1: Casey Lemon's Journey, Smollett, Lynn Whitfield, Megan Good, Debbie Morgan,
Speaker 1: just just all the women in All Star. Yes, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's that I'm gonna go. I'm I'm tempted to
Speaker 1: I'm definitely doing it three and a half. I'm tempted
Speaker 1: to even go for a four. But I'm going to go,
Speaker 1: I think with a three and a half because I
Speaker 1: do agree that for its time is I mean, it's
Speaker 1: it's so hard, right because I think that in terms
Speaker 1: of talking about child sex abuse on screen, I feel
Speaker 1: like I can say pretty confidently that this movie does more,
Speaker 1: more than anyone was even attempting to do it the
Speaker 1: same at this time while also making a lot of
Speaker 1: this same fuck ups that movies at this time we're
Speaker 1: doing it. Is like, as far as I concert, like
Speaker 1: never going to be worth the risk to put a
Speaker 1: child performer in a position like that. I I feel
Speaker 1: a little differently about the ambiguity because I do feel
Speaker 1: like she gave us all the clues, Mr Policeman, and
Speaker 1: so I don't want to necessarily punish the movie for
Speaker 1: that because I do feel like Casey Lemons does give
Speaker 1: us all the information. I do just wish that like
Speaker 1: I guess we didn't even talk about this, But the
Speaker 1: line that I think was cross like crossed the line
Speaker 1: for me was when Moselle told Eve like your dad
Speaker 1: says he wishes he had gotten that last dance. That
Speaker 1: for me kind of crossed the line of like, so
Speaker 1: we're gaslighting beyond the grave? Is like for real? Like
Speaker 1: is that necessary? And so I do think that the
Speaker 1: movie gives Samuel L. Jackson's character more than he deserves
Speaker 1: in terms of ambiguity. I am, I don't know, I
Speaker 1: just for sure the conversation was not sophisticated enough in
Speaker 1: the general public then or now clearly for people to
Speaker 1: inherently believe sicily. I think if we were living in
Speaker 1: this fantasy world where we were as a society inclined
Speaker 1: to believe survivors, that a lot of the choices in
Speaker 1: this movie wouldn't bother me as much. And so I
Speaker 1: am like, I'm it's kind of confusing because I don't
Speaker 1: want to punish Casey Lemons or the art for society
Speaker 1: not being where it needs to be on this issue,
Speaker 1: but it isn't, and so I just don't really know.
Speaker 1: I do know that I really dislike the fact that
Speaker 1: the scene was filmed in the medium that it was
Speaker 1: everything else, I'm kind of like, I don't know, Uh,
Speaker 1: stories about generational trauma, I think are are really rarely
Speaker 1: done well and thoughtfully, and this movie kind of takes
Speaker 1: a lot of boxes in terms of like showing you,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of the effects of generational trauma and
Speaker 1: showing you like, yes, ros is wrong a lot of
Speaker 1: the time, while also showing her empathy in other moments
Speaker 1: in a way that felt really like, I mean, you
Speaker 1: can't ask for like a harder task as a writer
Speaker 1: than to show all of this stuff. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've like I am genuinely, I'm just glad
Speaker 1: that Casey Lemons did it, and like for all of
Speaker 1: its failures, I feel like it's a triumph that it
Speaker 1: happened and that it was released and that it had
Speaker 1: this cultural impact, and I don't want to punish it
Speaker 1: for society being worthless. I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I guess I'm gonna go three and a half and
Speaker 1: I don't know how to feel h and broken. I'm
Speaker 1: giving all of my nipples to Debbie Morgan because she
Speaker 1: really she really did it with this one. Yeah, Bridge,
Speaker 1: what about you? I think I would put this. It's
Speaker 1: a tough call for me. I would say between three
Speaker 1: point five and four nipples. I say for the the heavy,
Speaker 1: you know, female lead talent both on camera and behind
Speaker 1: the camera, I think it's I can't go lower. Um.
Speaker 1: I don't know that I can give it a solid
Speaker 1: for but I'm some I'm somewhere in there. Sure cool, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I totally agree. Well, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 1: What a what a treat it's been, What what a
Speaker 1: memory this will be for all of us. Thank you
Speaker 1: for thank you for bringing us this movie truly. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm so happy that we got to talk about it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's I'm happy that this was on the agenda
Speaker 1: because I it's nice to have a reason to rewatch it.
Speaker 1: And it's just nice to have a throwback of kind
Speaker 1: of a time capsule, capsule of how we were dealing
Speaker 1: with representing black girlhood, black womanhood on screen. It's it's
Speaker 1: nice to look back to see kind of where we
Speaker 1: were at then and where we've come now. So I
Speaker 1: appreciate having the the reason to rewatch totally. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: UM tell us where people can check out your stuff,
Speaker 1: listen to your podcast, follow you on social media, etcetera. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you for asking. So if you want to hear
Speaker 1: more from me, please please check out my podcast. There
Speaker 1: are No Girls on the Internet on I Heart Radio. Um.
Speaker 1: Right now, we're doing this great mini series all about
Speaker 1: disinformation called Disinformed and really elevating some narratives around marginalized people,
Speaker 1: women of color, women, how we've all played a role
Speaker 1: showing up online and how we have gotten to this
Speaker 1: very kind of particular social and political moment that we
Speaker 1: find ourselves in. So if you're interested in that, please
Speaker 1: check it. Out. It's called They're No Girls on the Internet.
Speaker 1: And you can follow me on Instagram at Bridget Murray
Speaker 1: in d C or on Twitter at Bridget Murray. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and Bridget truly come back anytime. Oh it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1: I'll be back y'all. You'll you'll will not be able
Speaker 1: to get rid of me. Ah wow. Well, you can
Speaker 1: check us out on Twitter and Instagram at Bechtel Cast.
Speaker 1: You can subscribe to our Patreon a k a. Matreon.
Speaker 1: Speaking of Chicken Run, I believe that episode will have
Speaker 1: recently dropped, among many others, and that's specialist classic Chicken Round.
Speaker 1: My goodness. Um, that's a patreon dot com slash petel Cast.
Speaker 1: It's five dollars a month and you get two bonus
Speaker 1: episodes plus access to the back catalog. Oh and you
Speaker 1: can also get T shirts I always miss my cue here. Uh.
Speaker 1: You can also get t shirts at t public dot
Speaker 1: com slash v Bechtel Cast. We have masks amongst other wares,
Speaker 1: so um, you know, log on in, see what you
Speaker 1: like and until next time. Just a memory now and
Speaker 1: it's it's it's imprinted indelibly on your brain through the
Speaker 1: m P three file. But bye a.