WEBVTT - Eve's Bayou with Bridget Todd 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.680 On the bel Cast, the questions asked if movies have 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:07.720 women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:12.160 or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zef in best 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:17.200 start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Memory is a 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:24.000 selection of images, some elusive others imprinted indelibly on the brain. Hello, 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:28.000 and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante. 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:31.760 My name's jam Lovedes. Caitlin, I thought you werena say 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:35.760 this summer I killed my podcast co host. I was 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:38.640 thirty four years old. Oh, that would have been okay, 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:46.680 just to get things after a really sinister begins that 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:50.760 you know what, we close enough. Honestly, I would watch 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:53.520 that movie even if even if I had to die 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:55.800 at the end. You know, I've in fact, I might 0:00:55.880 --> 0:01:01.920 welcome it. Hi, Jamie us assured that I will never 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:05.160 kill you. But what if you you know, what if 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:07.560 in your mind you've set off a chain of events 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:10.760 that leads to like someone else, Like what if you 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:14.120 say something to someone and then it gets around to 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:19.800 so and so, and then Jack O'Brien kills and then 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:23.040 you're like, it's my fault. But but Jack O'Brien pulled 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:27.200 the trigger, so sure I would definitely feel responsible and 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:30.039 guilty about it, but I also don't. I hope that 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:33.520 I never, like accidentally or on purpose, do anything that 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:36.600 might like trigger a chain of events that leads to 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:40.440 your murder. Thank you so much. Ultimately, I do think 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:43.880 it would be funny if Jacob Bryan murdered me just 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:47.880 because I'm like, I just don't see it happening, but um, 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:50.880 it would be. It would be a wild twist in Sherwood. 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:55.280 That conversation. Um did not entirely pass the back to 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.320 the I think maybe areas of it did. I should 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:00.800 have said, I should have jacko Brian, you should have said, 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.760 and then it would have been completely above board. Yeah. 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:12.040 This is the Bechtel Cast. This Caitlin and My podcast 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:16.200 where we talk about your favorite movies and your least 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:21.280 favorite movies from an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:24.720 Test as a jumping off point, which is a media 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:28.680 metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel. There are different 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:32.880 variations of the test. Ours is that two people from 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:36.520 of any marginalized gender have to have names, they have 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:39.680 to speak to each other and their conversation has to 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:43.120 be about something other than a man for at least 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:47.680 a two line exchange of dialogue. Not many movies can 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:53.160 do it, but I think you're in for a treat today. Yes, 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:58.360 you are, so with that, I say we introduce our 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:03.440 guests and get the ball rolling. She is the host 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:06.440 of the podcast There Are No Girls on the Internet, 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:13.000 as well as the miniseries Disinformed. It's Bridget Todd. Hi. Hello, 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:15.480 I'm so excited to be here. Being on this podcast 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:17.119 has been a little bit of a dream of mine, 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:19.919 so I'm so happy that it's finally a reality. The 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:22.200 time is here. We've been trained to make it happen 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:25.440 for so long, and the stars are finally aligned. And Jamie, 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:28.400 if Jack O'Brien happens to kill you, I'll always happily 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:34.120 take your place. I perfect. See there's a greater plot. 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:40.960 Oh that's you know what. Honestly, in the event of 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:46.920 my untimely death, please do not avenge me and instead 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:50.240 just begin to host the Baxtelcast. You can bequeath it 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.520 to me. That's the right word. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:57.680 I'll start my will tonight. And just just to make 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:02.480 sure everything is all set, yeah, is illegal? Exactly exactly? 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:05.160 Is that? Is that something that would be really funny 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:08.560 if you could not Funny is not the word, but interesting, 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:14.960 if you could leave your job to another person. Maybe 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:17.640 someone's done that. Someone has to have done that, right, 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:21.240 I tried to. I feel like that's just like rich people, 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:24.000 dynasties could do that. But it would be funny if 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:27.000 you're like, I'm a second grade teacher at the Kennedy 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:31.000 School and I leave my job to my twelve year 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:36.440 old son, like wild, Well, there's sounds like there's a 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:43.560 movie plot there. Exactly. Okay, So Bridget, we're so excited 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:45.720 to have you here. Thank you for being here. Tell 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:49.720 us what your history, your relationship with today's movie, which 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:53.800 we forgot to say is eaves By. You tell us 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:57.560 all about it. Yeah, so it's a movie. So I 0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:00.520 had to really like think hard about my fationship with 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:04.200 this movie. I realized that my parents had it on VHS, 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:06.360 and so I think I watched it when I when 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:08.760 it first came out, I was like a child because 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:10.080 my parents just had it and it was one of 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:12.000 those movies. My parents didn't have a lot of movies 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:14.200 on VHS, so it was like one of those movies 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:15.960 that I had seen a couple of times just by 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:18.680 virtue of my parents having it. Another another one of 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:21.080 those movies would be Nell. You know those movies were like, Oh, 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:23.840 my parents randomly just had this on VHS for some reason. 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:28.000 And I remember distinctly my brother, who was a bit older, 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:30.800 being like, oh, I tried to watch that movie, and 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:34.440 nothing much happens in it, and so really thinking like, oh, 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:37.400 it's a movie that's like not good or it's boring. Really, 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:40.360 just based on this offhand comment my brother made when 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:43.159 I was a child, that's the best. And I could 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:46.080 also I could definitely see how a child watching this 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:50.400 movie would think that nothing really happens in it. Yeah, 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:53.159 a lot of it. As a kid, I think most 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:55.760 of the plot and subtexts went right over my head. 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:58.600 I didn't like, I could not have even though I've 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:00.919 seen I had seen it, most to the major plot 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:03.920 points I could not have articulated. And also, something I 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:06.480 have to say is that this is a bit embarrassing. 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:09.119 But when I was young, I went through a phase 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:11.840 where I was doing some like child acting and like 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:16.400 child modeling and child pageantry. And I don't know if 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:20.120 y'all know this. But the main character Eve, the titular character, 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:23.400 Journey Smillett, she was I guess she was a bit 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:25.440 younger than me, but like our era of doing that 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:28.120 stuff over lapped, and so I once went to an 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:31.279 audition that she was also auditioning for. But she was 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:34.200 like the girl like if you like she was on 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:37.080 a full House, she was in um that movie with 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:41.640 Robin Williams Jack like she was. She was like a 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:46.080 certain kind of young girl in in like a window 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:51.760 of the nineties. WHOA, that's that. You've had interactions with 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:54.880 Journey at like, I mean, I guess there's really no 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:58.000 The great thing about Journey Smillett is there's no such 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:01.640 thing as peak Journey small She's had so many phases 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:04.920 of her career that you could argue right now like 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:08.039 Birds of Prey, Journey smaller is peaked Journey smaller. You 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:10.640 just she's been. It's so where I feel like she 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:13.600 like isn't brought up a lot as like an iconic 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:18.160 child actor, which is strange because she has been so 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:24.040 consistently really good, yeah, and very recognizable. Um And it's 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:28.000 been fun to see her, like her work on Lovecraft Country, 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:31.040 like It's been interesting to see her have this staying power. 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:37.960 She is like unbelievable in this movie, like good Lord, 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:45.240 so good a child actor. I can get behind Jamie. 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:50.200 What what's your relationship? I am ashamed to say. I 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:55.840 only recently learned that this movie, uh existed. I knew 0:07:56.800 --> 0:08:01.000 about the writer, director, Kasi Lemon's, like I had seen 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:04.040 a lot of her later work and I like recognized 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:07.640 her from her acting days, but I hadn't heard that 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:10.720 much about this movie until I was working on Lolita 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:14.960 podcast plug a couple of months ago and I was 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:18.880 looking up like kind of iconic movies that addressed child 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:21.520 sex abuse in one way or another, and eaves By 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:23.040 You popped up and I was like, oh, we've gotten 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:26.200 requests for this, and kind of like I learned about 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:29.160 the movie from there, so I I don't know. I 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:32.120 it was strange too, because it's like this movie came 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:36.680 out in nineties seven and appears to have been snubbed 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:40.400 for all of the major like most major awards, which 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:45.480 is really frustrating, But it was like a popular movie 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:47.640 at the time. Like I asked my mom if she 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:49.240 had seen it, She's like, oh, yeah, I saw it 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:51.200 like a lot of people saw that movie, and I 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:53.520 was like, why don't I ever hear about it? I 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:56.280 don't know, it was just kind of I'm I'm like 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:59.240 bummed out and like surprised that I didn't know about 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:04.360 it until recently. But I, holy ship, there's so much 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:06.360 to talk about with this movie. I'm really excited to 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:08.400 talk about it. The fact that this is her first 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:13.240 movie is like, yeah, who, like the bar is so high, 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:16.720 it's so so good for sure, Kitl. What's your history 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:19.680 with this movie? Um, it was on my radar for 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:22.000 a while, but I hadn't seen it until we started 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:26.160 prepping for this episode, And yeah, it's I did not 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:30.400 know how challenging of a movie it was going to be. 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:34.320 And I'm very like, I'm nervous to talk about it. It 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:37.200 It just like deals with some very challenging subject matter 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:40.400 and I'm like, oh no, I'm gonna funk this up. 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:43.679 But um, yeah, I'm excited to talk about it. I'm 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:46.400 nervous to talk about it. There's a lot to unpack 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:51.720 and yeah, yeah, that's that's pretty much it. Yeah, yeah, 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.320 I was really looking forward to One of the reasons 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:56.480 why I'm looking forward to our conversation is because when 0:09:56.520 --> 0:09:59.800 I was watching it, I kept saying, like I forgot that, 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:02.960 you know, Um, I guess we'll get into it. But 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:05.120 I was really excited to hear Jamie since of your 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:08.440 work on the Lada podcast about some of the themes 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:11.200 in the film, like there I think I must have 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:14.800 just like blocked out that is a plot device in 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:16.840 eves by you when I saw, or I guess because 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:18.280 I saw when I was young. I think it just 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.080 like went over my head. Um, But yeah, I was like, oh, 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:23.720 I bet Jamie's got some interesting inside from doing so 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:27.439 much research for the Lida Body. Yeah, there's there's a lot. 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:30.079 I'm I'm excited isn't the word. But I think it 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:32.280 will be like an interesting conversation for all of us 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:35.640 to to talk about because I thought that, like, I mean, 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:37.839 there are so many movies that hand handle it so 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:41.120 like extremely poorly. And I also can imagine like if 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:42.760 I had seen this movie when I was too young, 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:45.360 I wouldn't have I don't know, like the way it's 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:48.040 presented would have been confusing to me. But I like, 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:54.520 I think generally like it's done like really really thoughtfully 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:57.120 and like in a way that I I don't know Yeah, 0:10:57.120 --> 0:10:59.720 that I don't really see you very much, so I'm 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:03.800 excited to talk about it. Yeah, should I do the 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:06.600 recap and we'll go from there. Let's do it, Okay, 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:09.400 So this would be I think a good time. Just 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:15.600 for a trigger warning for child sexual abuse and incest. Um. 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:20.800 So the movie opens with some voiceover from the titular 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:24.800 character Eve as an adult. She's talking about memories and 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:28.040 she says that line that we referenced in the beginning 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:30.480 of the episode that she killed her father when she 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:33.439 was ten years old. Um. We are in a place 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:37.440 called Eve's Bayou, which is a small creole community in 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:42.199 Louisiana in the nineteen sixties. We cut to the Batiste 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:47.280 family throwing a decadent party and we meet a ten 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:52.280 year old girl, Eve that's Journey Smallett. Her father is 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:57.240 a respected doctor that's Samuel L. Jackson. Her mother roz 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:01.679 is Lynn Whitfield. She's the prettiest woman in town. And 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:05.400 she also has a younger brother, Poe, played by Jake Smollett. 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:11.400 And you can tell that they're related so much. A 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:17.000 light like poor Megan Good. These two kids are so related. Also, 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:20.280 I didn't realize that this was young Megan Good, and 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:23.000 I didn't know that Megan Good was a child actor. 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:25.840 I was. I'm a fan of adult Megan Good. Didn't 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:29.320 know she's been at this for so long, because yes she. 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:34.360 Megan Good plays Eve's older sister, Cecily, who had has 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:39.400 just turned fourteen. We also meet Eve's grandmother and her aunt, Moselle, 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:45.200 played by Debbie Morgan. So at this party, Eve gets 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:48.520 jealous because her dad always is dancing with her sister 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:53.080 Cecily and never with her, and this is also where 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:57.720 she catches her father having sex with another woman, Maddie 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:02.280 Moreau played by Lisa Nicole Parson. And later that night, 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:06.240 Eve tells her sister Cecily what she saw, but Cecily 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:11.520 doesn't believe her, and she kind of fabricates this more innocent, 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:16.360 alternate version of what you've must have seen. Yeah, the 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:21.319 guess it's the the rapid succession of gas lighting. Uh 0:13:21.360 --> 0:13:24.480 that happens to even the first hour of this. You're 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:29.200 just like Eve, right. And then later that night Eve 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:35.080 has a premonition that her aunt Moselle's husband Harry dies 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:38.679 and it comes true. Um. So, Eve has this kind 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:43.200 of ability of foresight, as does her Aunt Moselle, and 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:47.600 she works as a psychic counselor and in some cases 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:54.000 she incorporates voodoo into her practices. Meanwhile, Louis continues on 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:59.960 with his dalliances with different women around town. Flay Grant, 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:06.200 by the way, I'm just like it has eyes. What 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:09.920 are you doing? Like there's one scene when he takes 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:12.560 her on his like doctor house calls and like there's 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:14.640 a woman who's like in a nighty in bed, like 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:17.440 I need I need some healing, and he just like 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:20.720 closes the door on his daughters one dinner, She's like, 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:24.080 wink wink could go outside. I'm like she's like she's 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:30.880 ten not oh right. Yeah, So that's his m o 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:35.800 and Eve's mother, Roz is either growing suspicious of this 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:42.240 or perhaps already fully aware, not like she knows and then, 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:45.240 which Eve also starts to figure out, is happening on 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:50.840 a pretty regular basis. So one day Roz and Aunt 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:54.920 Moselle stopped by a market where a woman named Elzora 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:59.520 played by Diane Carroll is giving fortunes and Roz gets 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:03.800 her fortun been told and Alzura says, you're in pain, 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:06.120 but you should just kind of stay quiet and wait. 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:10.400 Sometimes a soldier falls on his own sword, and in 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:13.760 three years you'll be happy again. Look to your children, 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:17.400 Look to your children. And this is like very ominous 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:21.600 and Ras is kind of freaking out about it. And 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:25.360 then Moselle has a premonition that a child gets hit 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:29.120 by a train, and Ras is terrified because she thinks 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:31.360 it might be it'll be one of her children, so 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:34.600 she coops them up in the house for several weeks. Well, also, 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:37.560 you missed the part where el Zora is so mean 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:42.840 to Moselle. It's like a psychic on psychic, like right 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:48.080 roast battle. I was like, oh my god. She's like like, 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:50.760 I don't need no catbone to tell you that you're 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:52.920 the black widow and any man who lays with you 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:56.520 is gonna die. And she the scene is actually upsetting 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.720 because she's like you old witch. And she in the jar. 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.000 This woman has been like cutting her money and she 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:05.440 throws it and it breaks. I gotta say, I probably 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:08.960 if I met a creepy old voodoo lady, I probably 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:12.240 would like not be so rude to her. I probably wouldn't. 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:14.440 I don't know, I would like. I was a little 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:16.840 concerned that she was being so openly hostile to this 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:21.960 woman who seemed so scary. Yeah, it's it's it's fun 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:26.720 because there's um there's a number of actors in this movie, 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:31.640 mostly female actors, who had really established themselves in soap operas, 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:33.760 and it seems like that they're like, oh, these are 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:38.640 two soap opera like legends, being like I'm not cursed 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:43.160 and like throwing a you know, shattering glass. I love 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:46.720 the soap opera act like you just there's so many 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:49.720 like amazing actors who started in soaps, but when they 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.240 get to like go back to their roots, it's exciting. 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:54.600 I'm so glad you brought that up because I mean, 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:58.400 Diane Carroll is an icon from Dynasty. Like, I don't 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:01.040 know if you'll watch Dynasty. I was definitely like young 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:03.240 watching it when my grandma was rewatching it. But like 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:06.959 her role on the old Dynasty's where she would always 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:09.560 you know that that expression like oh, I have the 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:12.479 receipts that comes from her. She originated that. There's an 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:15.639 amazing scene from an old Dynasty episode where it's like 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:18.960 her and she's wearing a her and she's like, I 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:22.680 have the receipts and she's like throwing them, uh honestly 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:26.879 shout out to a fucking icon legend, like so happy 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:28.520 that she's in this movie. And I think that she 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:32.359 does pump up the drama, the soapy drama in an 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:35.920 amazing way. It's so the way that like when she 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:39.200 like does the like the ha ha, You're like, oh 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:42.640 my god, that is like I had to go. I 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:44.359 forgot that she was on Dynasty, and I was like, 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:46.840 oh my god, what was her because I remember watching reruns. 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:48.760 I was like, what was her character's name? It was 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:55.800 Dominique Devereaux. It was Dynasty. And then Debbie Morgan was 0:17:56.040 --> 0:18:00.200 on All My Children for a really long time time 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:03.240 and she was the first black woman to win an 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:08.560 Emmy for soap opera. But yeah, they're the soap opera 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:13.960 energy in that scene was really just help exciting. Also, 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:18.920 Moselle screams you're a horrid, lying old witch, which almost 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:23.600 passes the Bechdel test exception said that the fortune was 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:27.160 about men and her husband's who will die. So yeah, 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:29.560 I skipped over that part because there's a whole subplot 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:34.199 where like then Moselle like me a man and like, 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:36.040 but all of her husbands have died, and she like 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:39.080 explains all of this to Eve and then but this other, 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:41.720 this new man comes in and they fall in love 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:44.080 and she's afraid that he's going to die if they 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:47.000 get married. I just kind of I basically skip over 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:49.480 that in the recap, but that is a part of 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:51.879 the movie. I just was like, that was like one 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:55.040 of my favorite scenes in the movie. Yeah, the reenactment 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:58.000 of that, the part where she's telving up talking about 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:00.520 her um where Moselle is talking about her ex lovers 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:03.480 and it's like that that re enactment scene of her 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:06.640 ex lover, her husband getting shot by her ex lover. 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:11.040 I was like, my heart was like racing. It is 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:13.480 like it's very sopy, but the way it's acted out, 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:15.720 You're like, oh, this is like a play. Like the 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:19.000 way that it's appearing in the reflection, I was like, oh, yes, 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:22.399 this is like this is a Broadway Award winning play. 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:27.320 Like yeah, it's so good. Yep um okay. So then 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:31.160 Moselle has her premonition about a child being killed, so 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:34.600 Roz coops all her children up in the house. Everyone 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:38.440 is getting very restless. Eve has an outburst, which is 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:40.600 also like I think that's my favorite scene where she 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:44.199 like is just like screaming and she's like calling everyone 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:47.639 out on their ship and like giving everyone attitude. And 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:50.160 I was like, damn, that is again very good child 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:52.240 acting and I'm here for it. And then it was 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:54.959 like I was like, oh my gosh, now she's going 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:57.040 to talk to Moselle and Mozelle is gonna believe her. 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:00.520 And then Moselle does believe her, but she's like, I 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:02.639 do believe you, but if you speak your truth, I 0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:10.159 will kill you, Like I will, oh right. So then 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:15.280 one day Cecily leaves against her her mother's like explicit 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:18.680 instructions to stay home, and she goes to visit her dad, 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:21.600 and then she also goes to the beauty parlor and 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:25.399 her mother is really upset because Cecily disobeyed her and 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:28.919 she hits her. And then that night Ros and Louis 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:34.400 argue and then Moselle's premonition comes true. My child gets 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:36.679 hit by a bus, but it was not one of 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:40.880 the Batiste children, so they're like so weird. They throw 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:43.080 a party when a kid is killed by a bus. 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:47.320 You're like, thank god it wasn't one of mine. I 0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:49.760 do appreciate the grandma and that scene. She's not in 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:52.600 the movie very much, but she's just like, you, guys, 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:57.080 a child has died. And they're like, they're like, not 0:20:57.200 --> 0:21:01.040 my problem. We can go out a child that they know. 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:03.919 They're like, oh, it's like so and So's boy, and 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:07.879 it's like you you know this family like it is 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:11.280 like it's funny, isn't the word? But I'm just like, wow, 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:14.359 it's it's just like there's not room in the movie 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:18.840 too mourn this fictional child. But it's like, oh, this 0:21:19.359 --> 0:21:22.920 kid was probably friends with the Batiste kids, and they're 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:27.600 just like, who do they know the child by name? 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:32.040 They obviously I know him like in their community. Yeah, 0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:42.640 they're I appreciated grandma advocating on behalf of fictional bus kid. Yes, truly, um, 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:45.000 but they're very excited that they can go outside again. 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:48.399 And then Eve goes to tell Cecily the news, but 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:52.200 Cecily is very upset and she has kind of shut down, 0:21:52.800 --> 0:21:56.760 and it might be because she has just gotten her period, 0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:01.200 it might be because ros had hit her not long ago, 0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:04.719 and she lashes out violently at Eve and then she 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:08.240 continues to like stay like just emotionally and mentally shut 0:22:08.280 --> 0:22:13.320 down for a few weeks, and then she tells Eve 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:17.120 what's really going on, which is that a few weeks ago, 0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:20.000 the night that her parents had a big fight was 0:22:20.040 --> 0:22:23.199 like the night of this big storm. Cecily went to 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:29.280 go comfort her father, but he abused her sexually and physically, 0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:35.159 and upon hearing this, Eve once her father dead for 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:38.720 doing that to her sister. So Eve goes to el Zora, 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:43.880 who practices voodoo in hopes that she can help Eve 0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:47.919 kill her father. And it's around this time also that 0:22:48.040 --> 0:22:52.240 Eve heavily suggests to Maddie Moreau's husband that Maddie is 0:22:52.320 --> 0:22:56.320 cheating on him. That's another really good Journey Smileett scene 0:22:56.480 --> 0:23:00.000 where you can like, oh, it's especially with child actors, 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:02.359 like wow, you can really see the gears turning in 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:04.720 her head of like should I do it? Should I 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:08.119 do it? Should I do it? And then it's like, yeah, 0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:12.600 it's really good and obviously like it was effective. I 0:23:12.600 --> 0:23:14.640 mean I don't know, I mean maybe not the way 0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:16.560 that she and the way that she wanted, but like 0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:20.000 you know, part of me was thinking, like imagine being 0:23:20.040 --> 0:23:24.439 an adult, an adult man, and a child is telling 0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:30.840 you what is going on in your own household, Like yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:33.719 that that was brutal. And then the second that was like, 0:23:33.960 --> 0:23:37.240 this story is so well crafted that it's like, oh, 0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:39.840 the second that happens, I'm like, oh, like I sort 0:23:39.840 --> 0:23:43.240 of saw the incoming, but it was like satisfying because 0:23:43.280 --> 0:23:48.080 of how full circle, like every everything that's planted has 0:23:48.119 --> 0:23:52.240 this significance, and yeah, if you think you know what's coming, 0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:56.639 you might be right. So then Eve goes back to 0:23:56.680 --> 0:24:00.000 el Zora and the voodoo that el Zora had performed 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:04.320 arm was not what Eve had expected, and she's not 0:24:04.400 --> 0:24:06.800 sure if it's going to work. And then Eve has 0:24:06.840 --> 0:24:10.200 second thoughts about wanting her father dead, so she goes 0:24:10.280 --> 0:24:14.520 to him, who is at that moment with Maddie, and 0:24:14.520 --> 0:24:18.520 then Maddie's husband shows up, figures out what's going on, 0:24:18.960 --> 0:24:22.840 and shoots and kills Louis, which plays out the way 0:24:22.880 --> 0:24:26.320 that Moselle's premonition had played out earlier, where it seems 0:24:26.359 --> 0:24:30.480 like someone had got hit by a train. So the 0:24:30.560 --> 0:24:35.600 family grieves the loss of Louis, and then Eve finds 0:24:35.640 --> 0:24:39.359 a letter that Louis had wrote to his sister Moselle, 0:24:39.920 --> 0:24:43.800 who had apparently accused Louis of abusing his daughter, and 0:24:43.920 --> 0:24:47.800 in the letter, Louis explains his version of what happened, 0:24:48.560 --> 0:24:52.040 that Cecily was the one to come on to him 0:24:52.680 --> 0:24:57.520 and that he fought her off. Um, so Eve confronts Cecily, 0:24:58.119 --> 0:25:01.800 accusing her of having lied a what happened, and it's 0:25:01.840 --> 0:25:05.359 a very heavy emotional moment. They're both in tears and 0:25:05.520 --> 0:25:09.919 Cecily says, I don't know what happened, and they decided 0:25:09.960 --> 0:25:12.119 to just get rid of the letter, and then the 0:25:12.200 --> 0:25:15.920 voice over comes back in repeating that line about memory 0:25:16.040 --> 0:25:20.879 being a selection of images, some elusive others imprinted indelibly 0:25:20.880 --> 0:25:25.639 on the brain. And that is the end of the movie. 0:25:26.840 --> 0:25:34.359 So the last shot is like haunting. Yeah, so let's 0:25:34.359 --> 0:25:36.440 take a quick break and then we will come right 0:25:36.480 --> 0:25:46.440 back to discuss and we're back. Um, so I think 0:25:46.720 --> 0:25:49.439 it would probably be best to start with kind of 0:25:49.440 --> 0:25:53.080 the most sensitive aspects of this conversation and then lead 0:25:53.200 --> 0:25:59.920 into the kind of more fun parts. So yeah, I mean, all, 0:26:00.520 --> 0:26:04.560 I guess star there. I've been unfortunately like researching Child's 0:26:04.560 --> 0:26:06.960 excuse for like seven or eight months at this point, 0:26:07.000 --> 0:26:09.760 and so there's like a lot of that I had 0:26:10.359 --> 0:26:17.119 watching this movie that were I mean, okay, so I 0:26:17.119 --> 0:26:19.399 guess like trigger warning for this whole section, and we 0:26:19.400 --> 0:26:21.760 can even like time code out in the description, like 0:26:21.800 --> 0:26:23.639 if you want to skip over this conversation, you can 0:26:23.640 --> 0:26:26.840 pick up here. But yeah, I thought that this was, like, 0:26:27.680 --> 0:26:31.400 especially for its time, like a pretty authentic portrait of 0:26:31.600 --> 0:26:37.240 how abuse plays out, and I really appreciated just kind 0:26:37.280 --> 0:26:41.560 of like how it was showed for the kind of 0:26:41.680 --> 0:26:44.960 mess that it is and how it affects families in 0:26:45.000 --> 0:26:49.280 such specific ways. So, first of all, like this this 0:26:49.320 --> 0:26:54.600 movie shows it shows the sexual abuse of a young 0:26:54.680 --> 0:26:57.360 black girl, which is I think for for like by 0:26:57.400 --> 0:27:01.040 and large in movies it is shown to be abused 0:27:01.040 --> 0:27:04.920 towards six white girls, which absolutely does happen very frequently, 0:27:04.960 --> 0:27:07.040 but not at the same rate that it happens in 0:27:07.119 --> 0:27:10.480 black and indigenous communities. So it's like, I feel like 0:27:10.560 --> 0:27:13.040 it's an important story to tell on that end. And 0:27:13.119 --> 0:27:16.159 another thing that it kind of touches on that I 0:27:16.200 --> 0:27:20.040 feel like is really not still kind of not understood 0:27:20.280 --> 0:27:23.840 in any meaningful way, is that nine times out of 0:27:23.960 --> 0:27:28.240 ten um sexual abuse experience as a child happens by 0:27:28.280 --> 0:27:33.359 someone that you know at least somewhat, but most often 0:27:33.440 --> 0:27:36.680 it is someone that you know well. And so like 0:27:36.840 --> 0:27:40.840 we're we were raised, you know, because this happens in 0:27:40.880 --> 0:27:44.000 the sixties. So first of all, we don't even have 0:27:44.119 --> 0:27:48.120 these resources commonly availables, and they were even less available 0:27:48.160 --> 0:27:52.200 in the sixties. And like we're generally taught as kids 0:27:52.320 --> 0:27:56.000 that we should be afraid of strangers, and there's no 0:27:56.240 --> 0:27:59.640 education and there's no kind of like attempt to raise 0:27:59.680 --> 0:28:03.480 away and us that there could be a threat from 0:28:03.520 --> 0:28:06.360 someone that you know. And then if that happens, who 0:28:06.359 --> 0:28:08.199 do you talk to? And it's just like not a 0:28:08.240 --> 0:28:12.280 conversation that has had even now and definitely wasn't had 0:28:12.880 --> 0:28:16.560 in the sixties. And so I don't know, I mean, 0:28:17.200 --> 0:28:20.919 it's I thought it was a really interesting approach, especially 0:28:21.000 --> 0:28:25.520 to set up the idea of like how memories are 0:28:26.040 --> 0:28:30.840 so complicated and like it's just science that the more 0:28:30.920 --> 0:28:34.399 often you visit a memory, the more often it tends 0:28:34.440 --> 0:28:37.280 to sort of change and shift a little bit. But 0:28:37.880 --> 0:28:40.440 I think with Sicily, what it comes down to is 0:28:40.560 --> 0:28:46.120 like she's uh, like a girl who she knows and 0:28:46.160 --> 0:28:48.440 we know by watching the movies, she has no one 0:28:48.520 --> 0:28:51.920 to turn to who's going to believe her, and she's 0:28:52.000 --> 0:28:54.640 it's there's and we'll talk about kind of like the 0:28:54.720 --> 0:28:57.680 generational trauma aspects of this movie and a bit, but 0:28:58.600 --> 0:29:01.880 she's well aware that there's really not anyone in her 0:29:01.920 --> 0:29:05.400 life except Eve who is going to receive this information 0:29:06.280 --> 0:29:10.280 in a way that is not blaming her um. And 0:29:10.400 --> 0:29:14.000 so I really I don't know. I mean, it's so 0:29:14.080 --> 0:29:16.400 depressing to see it laid out that way. But I 0:29:16.400 --> 0:29:19.680 feel like this movie, the points that Sicily's story touches 0:29:19.760 --> 0:29:24.080 are it's so common and it's like you never see 0:29:24.120 --> 0:29:28.200 it happen. Yeah, I mean, and and and even if 0:29:28.320 --> 0:29:33.400 like best case scenario for Sicily at this time in 0:29:33.800 --> 0:29:37.120 history in particular, like even if she had told her mother, 0:29:37.200 --> 0:29:40.360 her grandmother, her aunt and everyone believed her and everyone 0:29:40.440 --> 0:29:43.080 was like, we're here to support you, there were still 0:29:43.120 --> 0:29:48.000 no resources legally that she would have had because it's 0:29:48.040 --> 0:29:52.000 still such a patriarchal structure, and you know, particularly being 0:29:52.840 --> 0:29:57.000 black family, like dealing with the legal system in the 0:29:57.040 --> 0:29:59.440 nineteen sixties, like, there would have just been so few 0:29:59.560 --> 0:30:03.320 options for her. And I feel like it so where 0:30:03.400 --> 0:30:06.880 it's it's interesting seeing this from Eve's perspective, especially because 0:30:06.920 --> 0:30:10.880 she's trying to understand where her sister is coming from. 0:30:11.040 --> 0:30:13.960 But yeah, I don't know, it's just it's like it's 0:30:14.400 --> 0:30:18.320 heartbreaking and shitty. And then also seeing that I didn't 0:30:18.560 --> 0:30:21.960 see the um the letter from the dad coming through 0:30:22.000 --> 0:30:26.040 at the end of just abusers truly going to the grave, 0:30:26.360 --> 0:30:31.400 being just completely unable to see themselves for who they 0:30:31.440 --> 0:30:35.240 are and like to spend their entire lives deflecting, deflecting, 0:30:35.240 --> 0:30:40.280 deflecting because you know, it's like her father knows that 0:30:40.560 --> 0:30:43.920 her word won't be believed over his where for most people, 0:30:43.960 --> 0:30:45.960 and that he is you know, he is the most 0:30:46.000 --> 0:30:49.680 powerful person in that family, and and he's a very 0:30:49.760 --> 0:30:53.320 powerful member of that community that town, Like everyone looks 0:30:53.360 --> 0:30:55.640 up to him, everyone respects him. Yeah. So at the 0:30:55.720 --> 0:30:58.080 end where like Cecily says, I don't know what happened 0:30:58.520 --> 0:31:02.120 based on like conversations I had with like psychologists and 0:31:02.160 --> 0:31:05.760 specialists in that field, it's like she's very likely being 0:31:05.800 --> 0:31:09.400 completely honest there, like this happened to her really recently, 0:31:10.080 --> 0:31:13.560 um by someone that she loved and trusted. Uh, she 0:31:13.640 --> 0:31:15.680 doesn't have anyone to talk to about it. She doesn't 0:31:15.680 --> 0:31:18.560 really have many people around her who can help her understand, 0:31:18.600 --> 0:31:20.800 and there were no systems at this time to be 0:31:20.880 --> 0:31:23.600 able to talk to a kid about something like that. 0:31:23.720 --> 0:31:27.520 And so, yeah, I don't know, it's like heartbreaking, but 0:31:27.560 --> 0:31:30.280 I thought it was like so well written and so 0:31:30.320 --> 0:31:34.040 well performed by by Megan Good. So I have to say, 0:31:34.080 --> 0:31:36.280 and I don't know if this is like So when 0:31:36.320 --> 0:31:38.800 I watched this movie last night, and I watched it 0:31:38.840 --> 0:31:42.080 with my partner and then I reread the Wikipedia entry, 0:31:42.920 --> 0:31:46.400 I had the same read on the ending that you did. 0:31:46.920 --> 0:31:51.400 My partner was like, oh his tape was like he 0:31:51.520 --> 0:31:54.320 was like, oh, it seems like she was confused about 0:31:54.320 --> 0:31:58.240 what happened and that you know, it's inconclusive. It's like, 0:31:58.280 --> 0:32:00.640 I I hate to use its phrase, but like he said, 0:32:00.680 --> 0:32:05.080 she said, Wikipedia did not help the The Wikipedia entry 0:32:05.080 --> 0:32:07.920 on like the like plot, it says at the end, 0:32:08.040 --> 0:32:10.560 Eve confronts Sicily and uses her second site to discover 0:32:10.680 --> 0:32:13.320 what really happened. It ends with the sisters holding hands 0:32:13.320 --> 0:32:15.920 gazing into the sunset. And so I had the exact 0:32:15.960 --> 0:32:19.000 same reading that you did that like obviously the father 0:32:19.120 --> 0:32:21.920 wrote this letter, you know, being like I didn't do this, 0:32:21.960 --> 0:32:23.840 How could you think I would do this? And that 0:32:24.080 --> 0:32:27.719 we're supposed to by the end at least I finished 0:32:27.760 --> 0:32:31.400 that movie thinking something like that that like the way 0:32:31.400 --> 0:32:33.920 that Cecily described it is the way that it happened. 0:32:34.920 --> 0:32:37.600 I think it's interesting that, like there might be a 0:32:37.640 --> 0:32:39.840 read of the movie where there's where it's more ambiguous. 0:32:40.000 --> 0:32:42.840 To me. I had the same reaction where I was like, oh, well, clearly, 0:32:43.080 --> 0:32:45.480 you know, clearly he did this. And it was funny 0:32:45.520 --> 0:32:47.760 because when that so I have a I have a 0:32:47.840 --> 0:32:52.800 very very like visceral reaction when sexual violence is part 0:32:52.880 --> 0:32:54.960 like a plot device in a movie where I'm almost like, 0:32:55.320 --> 0:32:58.440 it's almost like disorienting and I kind of can't. It 0:32:58.560 --> 0:33:00.800 challenges so much of like what I I've seen before, 0:33:01.640 --> 0:33:04.200 And so the beginning of the movie they go to 0:33:04.280 --> 0:33:07.760 such a great pains to show that the father is 0:33:07.840 --> 0:33:11.800 like so doting of a father, particularly to Sicily, And 0:33:11.800 --> 0:33:13.920 so it's one of those things where you know, it's 0:33:13.920 --> 0:33:16.800 exactly what you were saying, Jamie, where I was like, 0:33:17.080 --> 0:33:19.320 was he were the signs always there that he was 0:33:19.360 --> 0:33:23.600 an abuser and I just missed them. I'm I'm remembering 0:33:23.640 --> 0:33:26.080 them as charming, but actually they were creepy. That there's 0:33:26.080 --> 0:33:28.320 that there's a scene early on when they're at that 0:33:28.440 --> 0:33:31.480 lavish party and he's dancing with Sicily and he's like, oh, 0:33:31.640 --> 0:33:34.760 you guys can't. Isn't my daughter a beautiful dancer? And 0:33:35.120 --> 0:33:38.600 scenes like that where you're like, well, wait, was that 0:33:39.360 --> 0:33:43.440 indicative of something more sinister going on? And I'm and 0:33:43.480 --> 0:33:46.360 I'm and I missed it because I was so caught 0:33:46.440 --> 0:33:48.200 up in this idea of like what a good dad. 0:33:48.360 --> 0:33:51.160 I think this movie does a good job of challenging 0:33:51.160 --> 0:33:56.240 our understanding of memory and challenging our understanding of like 0:33:56.440 --> 0:33:58.680 how we put a puzzle together to really show what's 0:33:58.760 --> 0:34:01.080 actually happening, because I cause I do feel like towards 0:34:01.080 --> 0:34:04.840 the end, it's not clear to me what I have seen, right, 0:34:04.840 --> 0:34:07.720 it's just a it's this a doting father where like 0:34:07.920 --> 0:34:10.880 his daughter got mixed up? Or is this a sexual abuser? 0:34:11.000 --> 0:34:13.439 I think like the movie, and I think that when 0:34:13.480 --> 0:34:17.919 these things play out, I think abusers oftentimes can use 0:34:18.000 --> 0:34:21.640 that that same dynamic of like, well, you know there, 0:34:21.640 --> 0:34:23.479 everyone's gonna think I'm just a good dad, Like who's 0:34:23.480 --> 0:34:25.160 gonna believe this? I think that it could kind of 0:34:25.160 --> 0:34:28.840 work on multiple levels. I guess what I'm saying. Yeah, 0:34:29.120 --> 0:34:32.799 that's so. That is my thing with this movie. It 0:34:32.800 --> 0:34:37.000 feels to me as though there is too much ambiguity, 0:34:37.120 --> 0:34:41.080 and I wish that ambiguity had been just more squashed 0:34:41.120 --> 0:34:46.040 by the end or something, because especially so I also 0:34:46.480 --> 0:34:50.799 read it that she is a survivor of abuse and 0:34:50.880 --> 0:34:53.279 he is an abuser. I think the three of us 0:34:53.320 --> 0:34:55.920 are all just the type of people who are inclined 0:34:55.960 --> 0:35:00.480 to believe survivors believe women. That was our read, But 0:35:01.000 --> 0:35:04.279 both times I watched this movie, by the end, I 0:35:04.360 --> 0:35:07.880 was like, there's just there are ways to interpret it 0:35:07.880 --> 0:35:11.839 differently than our read. And I think that's a dangerous thing, 0:35:12.160 --> 0:35:15.640 especially when dealing with a subject like child sex abuse, 0:35:16.000 --> 0:35:17.920 which is something that if you're going to tell a 0:35:17.960 --> 0:35:22.719 story about it, there shouldn't be ambiguity, because if there's ambiguity, 0:35:22.719 --> 0:35:25.600 that gives people a chance to say, I don't think 0:35:25.600 --> 0:35:28.839 it happened like that, or I don't believe them, or 0:35:28.880 --> 0:35:32.520 it's all a big misunderstanding, especially because like we had 0:35:32.560 --> 0:35:37.680 seen that other scene earlier where Cecily kind of it's like, no, Eve, 0:35:38.040 --> 0:35:41.400 that's not what you saw. You saw this version of 0:35:41.440 --> 0:35:45.240 the truth. And the fact that we have seen Cecily 0:35:45.400 --> 0:35:49.320 distort the truth before, I think would also be grounds 0:35:49.360 --> 0:35:52.799 for an interpretation that she is distorting the truth this 0:35:52.880 --> 0:35:55.880 time too. I don't think that's what happened, or that 0:35:56.000 --> 0:35:58.200 was not my read of it. But again, there's so 0:35:58.280 --> 0:36:01.239 much ambiguity there, and at least for me there was 0:36:01.960 --> 0:36:05.080 that I can I can see different interpretations of it. 0:36:05.520 --> 0:36:09.239 And then after like having all these thoughts, I came 0:36:09.360 --> 0:36:14.000 upon an interview with the cast as well as the 0:36:14.040 --> 0:36:17.160 director of this movie, Casey Lemons, that was like the 0:36:17.160 --> 0:36:24.000 twentieth anniversary special, and when asked about that scene that 0:36:24.000 --> 0:36:27.120 plays out two different ways, one as an adult abusing 0:36:27.160 --> 0:36:31.359 a child, and then the the second version, which is 0:36:31.760 --> 0:36:37.160 a child having like a misguided I don't even know 0:36:37.200 --> 0:36:40.120 how to just know what to call it exactly, but 0:36:40.160 --> 0:36:44.400 the second version. This is what Casey Lemons said about 0:36:44.400 --> 0:36:48.040 this moment in the movie quote. My intention was, what 0:36:48.160 --> 0:36:51.640 if you explode this moment. It's actually a very innocent 0:36:51.680 --> 0:36:55.360 relationship that they're having. He loves his daughter, she adores 0:36:55.400 --> 0:36:58.359 her father. They adore each other, and what if one 0:36:58.480 --> 0:37:01.920 night they crossed a line and we're both completely traumatized. 0:37:02.080 --> 0:37:05.440 But it spun everything else out of control. So to me, 0:37:05.520 --> 0:37:08.840 it wasn't controversial, it was the story. It was strange 0:37:08.880 --> 0:37:12.160 for people to ask me why do you have that 0:37:12.239 --> 0:37:17.360 angle there? Well, that's the story end quote. So even 0:37:17.560 --> 0:37:21.960 Casey lemons it's not helpful at all, a little evasive. 0:37:22.360 --> 0:37:24.880 I was like, I was like, okay, I was really hoping. 0:37:24.920 --> 0:37:26.600 I was like, Oh, she's gonna come through for us. 0:37:26.600 --> 0:37:30.680 She's gonna be like I didn't that's a little man, 0:37:30.840 --> 0:37:33.400 that's that's a weird I mean, whatever, it's her movie. 0:37:33.480 --> 0:37:36.360 I can't I can't be like huh, but yeah, we 0:37:36.360 --> 0:37:40.560 can sort of be like I guess it's it's I 0:37:40.600 --> 0:37:43.160 don't know. I feel like a number of ways about it. 0:37:43.200 --> 0:37:46.560 I do agree that any movie that depicts child sex 0:37:46.600 --> 0:37:49.920 abuse should be pretty clear about them, Like it's the 0:37:49.920 --> 0:37:52.760 easiest thing in the world to condemn, Like, why wouldn't 0:37:52.800 --> 0:37:56.320 you more clear they condemn it. I guess the argument 0:37:56.400 --> 0:38:00.560 that I can see for the I mean, it's just 0:38:00.640 --> 0:38:04.320 like it's I don't even I'm not even totally bothered 0:38:04.360 --> 0:38:07.920 by the fact that we are told that he doesn't 0:38:08.120 --> 0:38:10.239 see what he was doing as abuse. That is how 0:38:10.280 --> 0:38:13.520 abusers feel all the time. But it's just like going 0:38:13.560 --> 0:38:17.120 that one step further to make it clear how the 0:38:17.200 --> 0:38:20.680 movie feels. I guess that the only count and this 0:38:20.760 --> 0:38:22.760 is like not even how I feel, but I do. 0:38:23.760 --> 0:38:26.200 I don't know in movies and like this it almost 0:38:26.400 --> 0:38:30.480 not to bring Doubt into the conversation, but similar to 0:38:31.360 --> 0:38:37.880 Doubt a story that it's iconic and it does address 0:38:38.000 --> 0:38:41.160 child sex abuse, and I feel like it's like almost 0:38:41.560 --> 0:38:43.120 I don't know, like if this is just like kind 0:38:43.160 --> 0:38:46.320 of a movie thing that happened sometimes, but it's like 0:38:46.320 --> 0:38:48.680 a movie that's supposed to start a discussion where it's 0:38:48.719 --> 0:38:52.080 like bridget with you and your partner, you both interpreted 0:38:52.120 --> 0:38:54.759 the ending really differently, and then by discussing how you 0:38:54.840 --> 0:38:58.560 felt like differently about the ending. I don't know, Like 0:38:58.920 --> 0:39:01.879 I do see value in like ambiguous endings that can 0:39:01.880 --> 0:39:05.160 start conversations. I just don't know that like this topic 0:39:05.440 --> 0:39:08.480 is the one to have the this much ambiguity with. 0:39:08.760 --> 0:39:12.719 I remember, like leaving the theater seeing Doubt, my mom 0:39:12.880 --> 0:39:15.080 was like, so do you think he did it? Which 0:39:15.120 --> 0:39:17.560 is like should not be the question you're asking. It's 0:39:17.600 --> 0:39:20.239 like we need to be asking a more sophisticated question 0:39:20.320 --> 0:39:24.120 than that, Like yeah, well, just something I want to 0:39:24.160 --> 0:39:27.160 say is I think that, like you know, movies like 0:39:27.239 --> 0:39:29.840 Doubt and use by you, I mean, and Jamie, you 0:39:29.880 --> 0:39:32.640 could probably speak to this as well. It is exceedingly 0:39:32.800 --> 0:39:36.640 rare for child, for anybody, but especially children, to lie 0:39:36.680 --> 0:39:40.040 about sexual violence, right, Like, It's just that, like, it's 0:39:40.239 --> 0:39:44.279 exceedingly rare. And I think that movies like Doubt and 0:39:44.400 --> 0:39:47.520 movies like Ease by You, even though I enjoy them both, 0:39:47.960 --> 0:39:50.400 I do think it makes it. It presents a universe 0:39:50.440 --> 0:39:53.399 we're in. Maybe it's not rare, but we know it's rare, 0:39:53.560 --> 0:39:56.680 you know what I mean? Yeah, I agree, And I 0:39:57.280 --> 0:39:59.719 might have been giving this movie maybe a little more 0:39:59.719 --> 0:40:03.319 credit then it totally deserves on that end. It's just 0:40:03.440 --> 0:40:06.280 I where I'm coming from is I've seen so many 0:40:06.320 --> 0:40:10.759 movies that have just absolutely missed the mark, that don't 0:40:10.800 --> 0:40:14.399 even present the possibility that a child could be telling 0:40:14.400 --> 0:40:16.960 the truth about something like this. That the fact that 0:40:17.239 --> 0:40:21.440 we are presented clearly with the fact that whatever happens 0:40:21.920 --> 0:40:26.720 that Cecily is like extremely traumatized by it and alters 0:40:26.760 --> 0:40:29.279 the course of her life. You don't usually even get 0:40:29.320 --> 0:40:33.320 that much. And and she like shuts down, she becomes 0:40:33.360 --> 0:40:35.600 like she is like displaying all these kind of like 0:40:35.800 --> 0:40:39.279 classic symptoms of a child who has suffered abuse and 0:40:39.320 --> 0:40:41.880 doesn't know who to turn to about it. And you 0:40:41.920 --> 0:40:48.920 don't even usually get that much, which is really really bleak. Um. Yeah, 0:40:49.000 --> 0:40:51.160 and it's I do think that there is some value 0:40:51.200 --> 0:40:55.120 in kind of reminding audiences that like abusers are going 0:40:55.200 --> 0:40:58.600 to you know, generally defend themselves to the grave and 0:40:58.719 --> 0:41:03.440 like it. Yeah, I don't know, it's that's so interesting. 0:41:03.480 --> 0:41:05.960 I think, Yeah, I'm in like a weird headspace for it. 0:41:06.000 --> 0:41:08.759 But I for me, I was like, oh, the ending 0:41:08.840 --> 0:41:12.320 is like even based on like the images they chose 0:41:12.480 --> 0:41:17.120 to show Eve's um, you know, like vision at the end, 0:41:17.560 --> 0:41:19.399 I thought. For me, I was like, oh, I think 0:41:19.400 --> 0:41:22.480 that that corroborates in her reaction based off of that vision. 0:41:22.640 --> 0:41:25.239 Is like it seems like she was like I believe you. 0:41:25.320 --> 0:41:30.720 I'm sorry I came at you believing are like demonstrably 0:41:30.880 --> 0:41:35.480 deceitful abusive father like her reaction. But I like, and 0:41:35.520 --> 0:41:38.040 I'd probably have to go back and rewatch that the 0:41:38.160 --> 0:41:40.480 vision that you've has at the very end. But I 0:41:40.480 --> 0:41:44.200 feel like the like specific images that were chosen to 0:41:44.239 --> 0:41:48.719 be included in that vision still contribute to the ambiguity 0:41:48.760 --> 0:41:51.440 of it. Well at the end of Okay, so at 0:41:51.440 --> 0:41:54.040 the end of the day, here's how I feel about 0:41:54.120 --> 0:41:57.080 Like this is like something that I've been thinking about 0:41:57.080 --> 0:41:59.799 a lot the last couple of weeks. But um, I 0:41:59.800 --> 0:42:02.840 think that were like often like when we're talking about 0:42:03.000 --> 0:42:07.920 stories like this and crimes like this, the thing is like, 0:42:08.480 --> 0:42:12.560 even if what Samuel L. Jackson's character is saying is true, 0:42:12.719 --> 0:42:16.000 he's still a child sex abuser, Like it doesn't matter, 0:42:16.160 --> 0:42:17.600 do you know what I mean? Like, I think that 0:42:17.640 --> 0:42:21.520 there's like in the case of like, I'm just like 0:42:21.640 --> 0:42:24.240 fully Lolita brain. But like in the case of Lolita, 0:42:24.320 --> 0:42:28.200 a lot of like how people have discredited her character 0:42:28.360 --> 0:42:30.919 as by saying like, well, she had a crush on him, 0:42:30.960 --> 0:42:35.319 and so somehow like displaying any attempt to experiment with 0:42:35.360 --> 0:42:39.840 power as an adolescent means that you deserved whatever happened 0:42:39.840 --> 0:42:41.560 to you. When it's like, at the end of the day, 0:42:42.640 --> 0:42:47.719 whether you know whether Cecily's presentation of the crime was 0:42:47.800 --> 0:42:51.480 true or whether Samuel L. Jackson's was. Either way, even 0:42:51.520 --> 0:42:55.239 if it was, you know, a kid trying to experiment 0:42:55.280 --> 0:42:58.720 with power with an adult that they trust, it's still 0:42:58.760 --> 0:43:02.480 abuse for him to reciprocate for even a second and 0:43:02.480 --> 0:43:06.239 then to physically abuse her afterwards. So I but I 0:43:06.400 --> 0:43:08.080 but the problem is I don't think that a lot 0:43:08.120 --> 0:43:13.040 of people understand that that even if even if like 0:43:13.280 --> 0:43:17.360 someone initiates with you, that the power and balance is 0:43:17.400 --> 0:43:20.600 that large and it's incestuous and all these other things, 0:43:20.640 --> 0:43:25.040 that it is still on the powerful adult, and that 0:43:25.200 --> 0:43:28.600 is still who the So yeah, I don't know. I'm 0:43:28.640 --> 0:43:31.400 just like I've talked to a lot of survivors who 0:43:31.960 --> 0:43:35.000 have felt guilt and have felt, you know, what happened 0:43:35.000 --> 0:43:38.800 to them was somehow less valid because they had been 0:43:38.840 --> 0:43:41.840 curious about what that experience would be like, and then 0:43:42.360 --> 0:43:45.399 when an adult took advantage of them, you know it, 0:43:45.400 --> 0:43:49.120 it was abuse, and it confused them and it caused 0:43:49.120 --> 0:43:51.880 all these negative repercussions in their life. And so I 0:43:52.120 --> 0:43:55.120 feel like it's it sucks because like, no matter what 0:43:55.239 --> 0:43:58.760 happened in that scenario, even with Samuel L. Jackson's character 0:43:58.800 --> 0:44:01.520 painting himself in the best possible light, he is still 0:44:01.880 --> 0:44:07.319 an abuser. And so it's like, yeah, yeah, And I 0:44:07.360 --> 0:44:09.360 want to add one thing to that. So I completely 0:44:09.400 --> 0:44:11.319 agree with you, and I want to take it a 0:44:11.320 --> 0:44:14.520 bit further. And this might, I mean, this might be 0:44:14.600 --> 0:44:17.400 colored by my own you know, whatever I'm I'm bringing 0:44:17.440 --> 0:44:20.600 to this conversation, But I agree with you and I 0:44:20.640 --> 0:44:24.640 also would say, even if the moment between him and 0:44:24.680 --> 0:44:27.719 Cecily during the storm never happened, you and I have 0:44:27.760 --> 0:44:30.759 already talked about the beginning of this movie, where you know, 0:44:31.160 --> 0:44:34.879 he at a party at his in in his home 0:44:34.960 --> 0:44:38.160 with his wife and his children, he takes a woman 0:44:38.200 --> 0:44:41.120 that is not his wife into a back room of 0:44:41.160 --> 0:44:43.640 his of his home to have sex with her, right 0:44:43.680 --> 0:44:45.600 and his daughter happens to be there and sees it. 0:44:45.840 --> 0:44:48.879 He takes his daughter on these house calls where he's 0:44:49.000 --> 0:44:52.279 very clearly there to have sex with women. So even 0:44:52.320 --> 0:44:55.120 if even if the thing was Cecily never happened, he 0:44:55.320 --> 0:44:59.319 is still a grown man introducing a very adult level 0:44:59.360 --> 0:45:01.400 of sexuality the end of the lives of his children, 0:45:01.400 --> 0:45:03.680 who are very young and too young to understand what's 0:45:03.719 --> 0:45:07.000 going on. And so that's that is not how healthy 0:45:07.200 --> 0:45:10.640 mature adults engage with their children. So I would say 0:45:10.680 --> 0:45:15.759 that he, you know, has cultivated a vibe in his 0:45:15.840 --> 0:45:19.600 household with his children where it's no wonder they're confused 0:45:19.600 --> 0:45:22.600 about sexuality. I would say that this movie wants him 0:45:22.640 --> 0:45:25.759 to be a lot more blameless than he is for 0:45:25.840 --> 0:45:28.920 some of the other behavior, because I feel like, of course, 0:45:29.320 --> 0:45:32.400 like his kids can't feel safe and healthy in an 0:45:32.560 --> 0:45:36.600 environment where he is irresponsibly sexualizing things in a way 0:45:36.600 --> 0:45:39.240 that that that is far too advanced for them to understand, 0:45:39.239 --> 0:45:44.160 because their kids, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, 0:45:44.239 --> 0:45:46.440 It's it's weird because it's like I think that like 0:45:47.360 --> 0:45:54.040 we're like having like I now knowing that quote from 0:45:54.080 --> 0:45:56.600 from Casey Lemons, I'm just like, how much of this 0:45:56.680 --> 0:46:00.560 was intended? It's yeah, I know who even I mean, 0:46:00.600 --> 0:46:05.440 it's like, I I mean, I guess if we're being generous, 0:46:05.440 --> 0:46:07.840 like you could interpret her saying that's just how the 0:46:07.840 --> 0:46:11.480 story goes of like you know, have the conversation. I'm 0:46:11.480 --> 0:46:13.640 not going to answer your questions for you, which is 0:46:13.680 --> 0:46:16.880 like valid, but I'm just like, well, you could denounce 0:46:17.040 --> 0:46:19.880 child sex abuse, that would be that would be that 0:46:19.880 --> 0:46:22.479 would be just you know, even if it's just that, 0:46:22.480 --> 0:46:25.040 that would be great. Um. But yeah, I mean it's like, yeah, 0:46:25.040 --> 0:46:26.920 we we all and I think most listeners of this 0:46:27.000 --> 0:46:33.720 show we believe sicily that you know, gigantic trauma was caused, 0:46:33.800 --> 0:46:36.880 and even with the most support possible, it's still, you know, 0:46:36.960 --> 0:46:39.760 kind of a lifelong journey for many people to recomm 0:46:39.760 --> 0:46:42.840 with this kind of abuse. Um, But yeah, I just 0:46:42.920 --> 0:46:45.320 want to like, no matter what happened in that situation, 0:46:45.360 --> 0:46:48.200 no matter whose account or somewhere in between is true, 0:46:48.400 --> 0:46:51.920 he's a child sex abuser, like period, end of story. Um, 0:46:51.960 --> 0:46:55.839 And there's and especially with children, it's like there's there 0:46:56.000 --> 0:47:01.000 is no like perfect victim. And yeah, I think that, 0:47:01.120 --> 0:47:03.600 like it's that's just like something that we even like 0:47:04.160 --> 0:47:06.680 you know, like feminist and people who are like very 0:47:06.719 --> 0:47:10.920 inclined to believe survivors like need to work on is 0:47:11.000 --> 0:47:14.279 like the way that these like dynamics play out are 0:47:14.320 --> 0:47:17.839 not cleanly, like I said no, and then he did this, 0:47:18.000 --> 0:47:20.600 Like it is often very ambiguous and it comes down 0:47:20.640 --> 0:47:24.840 to power dynamics and all these other things. So sure, 0:47:24.920 --> 0:47:28.160 and I wonder if the intention was to explore like 0:47:28.280 --> 0:47:33.400 that version of the ambiguity. But she told us, I 0:47:33.520 --> 0:47:36.680 just I know, and we also like, you know, just 0:47:36.760 --> 0:47:40.879 considering the context of the time that this movie came 0:47:40.880 --> 0:47:46.680 out today, Like so this is like ven where steeped 0:47:46.719 --> 0:47:52.520 in you know, patriarchal standards, toxic masculinity, a rape culture 0:47:52.760 --> 0:47:57.160 that tends to believe the perpetrators of these crimes rather 0:47:57.280 --> 0:48:02.080 than the survivors. This is our rape culture. Every generation 0:48:02.160 --> 0:48:04.840 has their own rape culture. This is our rape culture. 0:48:04.960 --> 0:48:09.319 So so to to tackle a story that deals with 0:48:09.400 --> 0:48:12.520 this subject matter again, it has to be done so 0:48:12.800 --> 0:48:16.080 carefully and that ambigu I really feel that that ambiguity 0:48:16.160 --> 0:48:19.359 needs to be removed if you're going to tackle it responsibly. 0:48:20.239 --> 0:48:23.359 And I just I can't. And it's like, sure, this 0:48:23.400 --> 0:48:27.880 is us, you know, post me too, but even like, 0:48:28.200 --> 0:48:30.480 oh god, that's what that's that's what this is. Why 0:48:30.719 --> 0:48:32.480 this I was like so nervous to talk about this 0:48:32.520 --> 0:48:37.120 movie and then why I think it's so challenging and well, 0:48:37.160 --> 0:48:39.759 the other thing too, is um, the other thing that 0:48:39.960 --> 0:48:43.400 really bothers me about this movie is the abuse that 0:48:43.440 --> 0:48:48.920 we see happen on screen. Is us seeing actor Samuel L. Jackson, 0:48:49.080 --> 0:48:53.800 a full adult male kiss that's Megan Good on screen, 0:48:53.920 --> 0:48:57.280 who was fifteen or sixteen at the time of shooting 0:48:57.280 --> 0:49:01.200 this movie. Underage. Yeah, I just it could have been 0:49:01.239 --> 0:49:03.600 should have been framed in such a way where this 0:49:03.719 --> 0:49:07.040 child actor did not have to kiss and be kissed 0:49:07.080 --> 0:49:11.239 by an adult many. Oh, I don't like it. Like 0:49:11.760 --> 0:49:14.359 it's not like I don't like it. I think there 0:49:14.360 --> 0:49:18.120 are ways to even if you are trying to depict 0:49:18.360 --> 0:49:21.920 like a scene. You're trying to depict on screen an 0:49:22.640 --> 0:49:25.800 underaged girl and a grown man. You want you wanted 0:49:25.800 --> 0:49:29.080 to pick them together. There are ways to get around 0:49:29.160 --> 0:49:33.719 having a The actor's actually portray this right like, there 0:49:33.719 --> 0:49:35.600 are ways to do it. I just don't like it. 0:49:35.640 --> 0:49:37.279 I mean, I don't know if you have ever seen 0:49:37.360 --> 0:49:40.960 that movie. Um, it's the it's the it's kind of 0:49:41.080 --> 0:49:43.399 build as like a sequel to do the right thing. 0:49:43.440 --> 0:49:46.480 The Spike Lee movie I'm gonna blank the name. Oh um, 0:49:46.680 --> 0:49:51.000 Red Hook Summer. It's a it's a like wild movie, 0:49:51.120 --> 0:49:53.359 but I do not recommend it, but there's a there. 0:49:53.640 --> 0:49:57.479 It also deals with childhood sexual violence. And something about 0:49:57.480 --> 0:49:59.400 that movie that really sticks with me is that the 0:49:59.400 --> 0:50:01.520 way that it's the picked it seems so it seems 0:50:01.560 --> 0:50:05.640 it's so egregiously like you know, you you as a 0:50:05.640 --> 0:50:08.360 as a filmmaker, you don't want to be depicting a 0:50:08.640 --> 0:50:13.920 child and an adult having like having a physical sexual 0:50:14.040 --> 0:50:17.920 like relations on screen. And I feel like sometimes sometimes 0:50:17.920 --> 0:50:20.200 films can get there, maybe they're trying to critique it 0:50:20.280 --> 0:50:22.120 or attack it or what have you, but at the 0:50:22.160 --> 0:50:23.800 end of the day, you don't want to be depicting 0:50:23.800 --> 0:50:25.440 it on screen. At least in my book, right, I 0:50:25.480 --> 0:50:27.520 just think that there's there's gotta be a way to 0:50:27.680 --> 0:50:32.880 handle it differently. I think, yes, I agree, Yeah, I 0:50:33.000 --> 0:50:35.560 this is this episode is a long plug for Lolita podcast. 0:50:35.800 --> 0:50:38.520 There's there's like a whole, there's a whole. I I 0:50:38.560 --> 0:50:43.160 completely agree, and there's it's frustrating because what I think, 0:50:43.360 --> 0:50:47.920 just knowing is when the second Lolita movie came out, 0:50:47.920 --> 0:50:50.759 so I'm very intimately familiar with what the laws were 0:50:50.840 --> 0:50:55.560 with child performers in this specific year. Um So, first 0:50:55.600 --> 0:51:00.200 of all, I feel like it is always not even 0:51:00.239 --> 0:51:02.520 if you have, like there's a number of stories of 0:51:02.560 --> 0:51:05.600 like movies that that well, this is part of the 0:51:05.640 --> 0:51:07.560 reason that I was frustrated that there isn't a ton 0:51:07.680 --> 0:51:10.120 of information about the production of this movie, or there 0:51:10.160 --> 0:51:12.279 wasn't as much as I would have liked on the 0:51:12.320 --> 0:51:16.279 subject matter I was interested in because at this time 0:51:16.320 --> 0:51:18.279 there was a law for movies that were shot in 0:51:18.320 --> 0:51:21.480 nine six, at least there was a new law introduced 0:51:21.760 --> 0:51:26.239 where there couldn't be any like you had to guaranteed 0:51:26.280 --> 0:51:28.960 this movie went past a lawyer to be allowed to 0:51:29.000 --> 0:51:33.000 be released because there was a Child Pornography um Act 0:51:33.080 --> 0:51:39.480 passed in that severely restricted what you could show on screen, 0:51:39.560 --> 0:51:43.560 and it was like generally a pretty good law, but 0:51:43.600 --> 0:51:46.480 then you find kind of all these um stories that 0:51:46.560 --> 0:51:50.400 are people trying to skirt around this law. So I 0:51:50.400 --> 0:51:52.400 would guess that in many of the shots that you 0:51:52.440 --> 0:51:55.000 don't see Megan Goods face that is not her, that 0:51:55.120 --> 0:51:57.840 is an adult body double. That seems to be the 0:51:57.840 --> 0:52:01.279 most popular workaround that said, you do still see the 0:52:01.400 --> 0:52:05.279 actress underage Megan good kiss Samuel L. Jackson and I 0:52:05.400 --> 0:52:08.880 just two things. Is like, first of all, no matter 0:52:08.960 --> 0:52:12.040 how much like there's sometimes like a director will be like, well, 0:52:12.080 --> 0:52:14.800 I had a you know, a child psychologist on call, 0:52:14.960 --> 0:52:17.560 so that if the actor didn't feel comfortable talking to me, 0:52:17.600 --> 0:52:19.399 they could talk to this person. It's just not worth 0:52:19.400 --> 0:52:22.799 the risk at all, like for anyone. And it's like, 0:52:22.880 --> 0:52:25.920 if you need evidence that that's true, talked to almost 0:52:25.920 --> 0:52:28.880 any child actor who has been like Natalie Portman has 0:52:28.920 --> 0:52:31.480 talked about it extensively. There's like a number of child 0:52:31.520 --> 0:52:33.319 actors who have done scenes like this where like I 0:52:33.400 --> 0:52:35.399 just didn't feel comfortable, like I felt like I felt 0:52:35.440 --> 0:52:37.880 like there's a hundred people around me whose jobs depend 0:52:37.920 --> 0:52:40.520 on me doing this. I and I was ten, What 0:52:40.560 --> 0:52:42.680 was I going to do? You know? And then on 0:52:42.800 --> 0:52:46.120 top of that, one of the the the I guess 0:52:46.200 --> 0:52:49.279 the one of the main notes I had for just 0:52:49.440 --> 0:52:53.520 like how this because I do think that for eaves By, 0:52:53.560 --> 0:52:57.120 you handles c s A in a movie like better 0:52:57.160 --> 0:53:00.279 than almost any other movie of this year or this 0:53:00.400 --> 0:53:02.760 series of years did, which is not to say it's perfect, 0:53:02.800 --> 0:53:04.719 but it is definitely better because this is the year 0:53:04.760 --> 0:53:08.680 that Lolita came out. Right, I actually have a question 0:53:08.800 --> 0:53:10.399 for you. I don't I'm not to keep making you 0:53:10.719 --> 0:53:14.839 talk about Lolita, but so I've seen that n version 0:53:14.880 --> 0:53:19.000 of Lolita several times. There are scenes where um, Jeremy 0:53:19.000 --> 0:53:21.560 Irons and Dominique Swain kiss There's like a scene where 0:53:21.600 --> 0:53:24.240 like she's sitting on his lap. Is that a body 0:53:24.280 --> 0:53:28.560 double or is that actually her? When there's it's it's 0:53:28.600 --> 0:53:30.840 a bunch of different stuff. The amount of time and 0:53:30.880 --> 0:53:34.640 it's like it ultimately obviously was not worth it, right, 0:53:34.680 --> 0:53:37.759 But yeah, for them, it was anytime she appeared to 0:53:37.800 --> 0:53:41.120 be nude, it was a body double. Anytime that she 0:53:41.280 --> 0:53:43.360 kissed him, they had to run it by a lawyer. 0:53:43.560 --> 0:53:45.520 Her parents were on set and there was a child 0:53:45.560 --> 0:53:48.839 psychologist on set anytime she sat on his lap, there 0:53:48.880 --> 0:53:51.560 was a pillow between them. So there are like more 0:53:51.640 --> 0:53:55.000 measures than would be taken even a decade before, but 0:53:55.120 --> 0:53:58.200 it's still not enough. Going off of that, I had 0:53:58.239 --> 0:54:01.360 a conversation with a friend of this podcast, Eva Vivez, 0:54:02.239 --> 0:54:06.239 who is a survivor and has you know, incorporated just 0:54:06.360 --> 0:54:09.319 kind of the lasting effects of CISA into a lot 0:54:09.320 --> 0:54:12.640 of her work, and she pointed out, and it's totally 0:54:12.719 --> 0:54:17.160 true that um in stories about CISA, the movies and 0:54:17.200 --> 0:54:20.600 projects that tend to be more recognized are movies and 0:54:20.640 --> 0:54:24.640 projects that explicitly show the abuse. And she feels strongly 0:54:24.680 --> 0:54:30.240 that that is like very telling bias and also something 0:54:30.280 --> 0:54:32.360 that just doesn't need to happen, Like you can show 0:54:32.400 --> 0:54:36.520 the effects of CISA without showing it, And that's even 0:54:36.520 --> 0:54:39.360 true for this movie. You could not have those scenes 0:54:39.520 --> 0:54:43.920 and still have that plot point be effective, right, Like 0:54:44.000 --> 0:54:46.120 you don't need to show it. But the movies that 0:54:46.160 --> 0:54:49.840 are most successful that deal with this topic always always 0:54:49.920 --> 0:54:52.080 always show it, and the movies that just show the 0:54:52.120 --> 0:54:55.160 effects of it are more likely to kind of get 0:54:55.239 --> 0:54:58.000 swept under the rugs. So that's like another that's just 0:54:58.239 --> 0:55:01.239 I mean, like it's it's so except voitative, and I 0:55:01.239 --> 0:55:04.120 think it really it. I mean, I think we should 0:55:04.160 --> 0:55:08.960 be asking the question whether or not physical depictions of 0:55:09.280 --> 0:55:14.120 childhood sexual violence we're making that profitable and why because 0:55:14.120 --> 0:55:15.600 it sounds like from what you just said, it sounds 0:55:15.600 --> 0:55:19.080 like we are we are, and it's it's frustrating because 0:55:19.080 --> 0:55:22.920 it's like I don't know it's there. It's a really 0:55:23.200 --> 0:55:26.239 complicated question to even wrote, because I don't know. I 0:55:26.320 --> 0:55:29.640 wasn't able to find out if if Kasey Lemons was 0:55:29.680 --> 0:55:32.120 a survivor of this kind of abuse her self, but 0:55:32.200 --> 0:55:36.000 I know of like several survivors of abuse who have 0:55:36.120 --> 0:55:41.279 made movies about CSA that show to an extent what 0:55:41.440 --> 0:55:43.719 that abuses, whether it's in montage or whatever. And so 0:55:43.760 --> 0:55:45.839 it's like I don't even really feel comfortable being like 0:55:46.280 --> 0:55:48.520 no one can do it. I think that when you're 0:55:48.840 --> 0:55:52.920 when you have a child actor you it's kind of 0:55:53.040 --> 0:55:57.440 unconscionable to do um. But in terms of like I 0:55:57.480 --> 0:56:00.200 don't know, I mean, it's like there was that it 0:56:00.320 --> 0:56:02.480 was like a really popular HBO movie a couple of 0:56:02.520 --> 0:56:06.800 years ago. I think it's called The Act or is 0:56:07.160 --> 0:56:09.680 that what it was by Jennifer Fox, and it was 0:56:09.920 --> 0:56:13.840 starring La Laura Dern, and it was about Jennifer Fox's 0:56:13.920 --> 0:56:16.960 childhood sexual abuse, and it actually it reminded me a 0:56:16.960 --> 0:56:19.840 lot of Eve's bio to the part where I'm certain 0:56:19.880 --> 0:56:23.359 that she has seen it, where it is about her 0:56:23.600 --> 0:56:27.960 revisiting her child sexual abuse and revisiting the memories, and 0:56:28.200 --> 0:56:30.040 the more she talks to people in her life from 0:56:30.080 --> 0:56:32.080 that time, the more the memories kind of change in 0:56:32.200 --> 0:56:35.120 shape and end up kind of landing on what she 0:56:35.719 --> 0:56:40.000 believes the truth is. And yeah, sorry, it's the tail. 0:56:40.200 --> 0:56:45.600 It's not the act that which is like I feel 0:56:45.600 --> 0:56:47.600 complicated about it. That's not what the episode is about, 0:56:47.800 --> 0:56:50.399 but it is it. It takes on similar stuff where 0:56:50.400 --> 0:56:54.440 it shows you the abuse in a way that just, uh, 0:56:54.600 --> 0:56:56.200 it's it's weird because it's like, I don't want to 0:56:56.239 --> 0:56:59.680 tell a survivor like you shouldn't have done this, But 0:57:00.200 --> 0:57:03.040 in terms of like having a child actor in that scene, 0:57:03.800 --> 0:57:07.759 I don't think that they should have. Like it's extremely complicated, 0:57:08.000 --> 0:57:11.840 but I personally, like, I personally think that you could 0:57:12.640 --> 0:57:15.440 if I could change stuff about ease By, I would 0:57:15.680 --> 0:57:19.120 get rid of the physical depiction of those scenes. And 0:57:19.160 --> 0:57:21.440 I think that honestly, it can be more impactful to 0:57:21.560 --> 0:57:25.760 hear the child and the abuser describe it in their 0:57:25.800 --> 0:57:29.520 own words. You can have the same effect without having 0:57:29.560 --> 0:57:32.320 to show that and just kind of make it a 0:57:32.320 --> 0:57:34.720 little clearer, like you were saying, like you're boss saying 0:57:34.760 --> 0:57:39.040 at the end that no matter whose recollection is corrected, 0:57:39.360 --> 0:57:41.320 she is a survivor of abuse, and that that's like 0:57:41.360 --> 0:57:43.920 something she's going to need to, you know, continue to 0:57:44.240 --> 0:57:48.280 deal with throughout her entire life. Well, from that same 0:57:48.760 --> 0:57:53.560 interview with the cast and some of the crew, Megan 0:57:53.640 --> 0:57:57.560 Good spoke about like these specific moments in the movie, 0:57:58.440 --> 0:58:01.080 and here's what she had to say. Again. The actor 0:58:01.120 --> 0:58:05.720 who plays Cecily says, quote, we had to shoot it 0:58:05.800 --> 0:58:12.440 probably fifteen times, so God, we had to shoot my perspective, 0:58:12.960 --> 0:58:17.720 his perspective, and then the actual perspective of what really happened. Now, 0:58:17.720 --> 0:58:19.320 I'm going to pause from the quote here for a 0:58:19.320 --> 0:58:22.440 moment because it is not specific. She means by that 0:58:23.480 --> 0:58:26.280 it is not specific what the quote actual perspective of 0:58:26.320 --> 0:58:30.320 what really happened is. They're playing around with us. I 0:58:30.360 --> 0:58:35.000 don't like it. I don't like it because it's possible 0:58:35.080 --> 0:58:38.120 that that was even cut from the movie. Like whatever 0:58:38.160 --> 0:58:40.080 she's talking about might not even appear, because I know 0:58:40.120 --> 0:58:42.680 there's like a director's cut of this movie too at 0:58:42.920 --> 0:58:46.080 different I'm not sure. But so here's the rest of 0:58:46.120 --> 0:58:49.720 the quote. I remember the day before the scene, everyone 0:58:49.800 --> 0:58:53.520 was so anxious. You okay, you okay. I'm like, yeah, 0:58:53.560 --> 0:58:57.520 I'm fine. Sam was as equally nervous. That was kind 0:58:57.560 --> 0:58:59.800 of the defining moment. That's the moment that brought the 0:58:59.840 --> 0:59:02.640 movie be together and what it was based on. I 0:59:02.760 --> 0:59:05.800 felt a huge responsibility to do a good job, but 0:59:05.880 --> 0:59:10.280 I was definitely nerve wracked for sure. End quote. So 0:59:10.360 --> 0:59:12.720 just to hear that, like they had to shoot it 0:59:12.840 --> 0:59:17.320 so many times, everyone was feeling very uneasy about it, 0:59:17.400 --> 0:59:21.120 Like those are indications that like, don't fucking put it 0:59:21.160 --> 0:59:23.960 in the movie. And it really it really speaks to 0:59:24.000 --> 0:59:26.720 what you were just talking about, Jamie, about like Natalie 0:59:26.760 --> 0:59:29.880 Portman saying, you know, so many people's jobs and so 0:59:29.960 --> 0:59:32.280 much money depends on me just being able to do this, 0:59:32.440 --> 0:59:34.040 and I maybe I didn't want to do it, but 0:59:34.080 --> 0:59:35.880 like I just had to. I just had to do it, right. 0:59:36.120 --> 0:59:39.680 I don't think that we should be putting children in 0:59:39.760 --> 0:59:43.680 positions who they're already so vulnerable, putting them in positions 0:59:43.720 --> 0:59:46.080 where they feel this way and they feel an immense 0:59:46.320 --> 0:59:48.280 like the fact that Megan Good said she felt pressure 0:59:48.360 --> 0:59:51.479 to get it right that just kind of heart it's 0:59:52.680 --> 0:59:57.080 and it says, it's like drives me, like she's not 0:59:57.400 --> 0:59:59.880 even the only child actor that had to deal with 1:00:00.000 --> 1:00:04.360 this exact issue this calendar year. Like that is so 1:00:04.520 --> 1:00:08.600 absurd that it's like there are just young teens and 1:00:08.760 --> 1:00:11.800 kids being put in this position in the first place, 1:00:11.840 --> 1:00:15.440 where like, yeah, it's it's an unfair ask. It's also 1:00:15.680 --> 1:00:18.800 like the fact that it's also a financial transaction on 1:00:18.920 --> 1:00:24.120 top of that, where so even like you know, it's 1:00:24.120 --> 1:00:26.360 like if you have even one parent who's kind of 1:00:26.400 --> 1:00:28.400 acting in bad faith and doesn't want to rock the 1:00:28.400 --> 1:00:30.240 boat and wants to make sure that the check has 1:00:30.280 --> 1:00:34.240 gotten then it's not even a guarantee that Like, I mean, 1:00:34.320 --> 1:00:38.080 this movie proves not all parents are good and like 1:00:39.120 --> 1:00:42.200 and certainly, you know, child actors parents have a very 1:00:42.440 --> 1:00:46.480 sordid record of acting in the best interest of their children. 1:00:46.640 --> 1:00:51.000 And so I don't even necessarily trust like a fourteen 1:00:51.080 --> 1:00:53.840 or fifty year old mother to say, like, no, she 1:00:53.880 --> 1:00:57.680 can do it, Like that may not be true, like 1:00:57.920 --> 1:01:00.880 or or you know, there's can then there should And 1:01:01.440 --> 1:01:03.360 I don't know that that quote reminds me a lot 1:01:03.400 --> 1:01:06.400 of Yeah, the actor who played the lead to this, 1:01:06.400 --> 1:01:09.560 this girl, Dominique Swain, that was like a very similar 1:01:09.600 --> 1:01:12.120 thing of like, yeah, it was really nerve wracking, and 1:01:12.200 --> 1:01:15.000 everyone was really nervous, and like Jeremy Irons was like 1:01:15.200 --> 1:01:17.840 crying during the scene, and just everyone was really stressed 1:01:17.880 --> 1:01:20.080 out about it, and I just did my best because 1:01:20.080 --> 1:01:22.880 I knew I had to do it, and like everyone, 1:01:23.360 --> 1:01:25.360 I don't know, I just I think that there are 1:01:25.360 --> 1:01:30.160 ways to tell these stories because their stories worth being told. 1:01:30.280 --> 1:01:34.480 But in live action it's not worth the risk towards 1:01:34.560 --> 1:01:38.760 the underage performer period, Like I feel like there's not 1:01:38.840 --> 1:01:42.680 to like hand it to, you know, Tarantino or anything. 1:01:42.960 --> 1:01:46.240 But like how in kill Bill, like the most traumatic 1:01:46.280 --> 1:01:50.720 scene towards a kid happens in animation instead of having 1:01:51.000 --> 1:01:54.120 making it happen, you know, instead of putting a child 1:01:54.160 --> 1:01:59.160 actor through the grueling, brutal, violent sexual violence that takes 1:01:59.160 --> 1:02:01.880 place in that scene. Like if you really, really, really, 1:02:01.920 --> 1:02:05.000 as a director, feel that this needs to be shown, 1:02:05.840 --> 1:02:09.280 you have to work around, like you you can't make 1:02:09.320 --> 1:02:11.520 a kid do it because you think it needs to 1:02:11.520 --> 1:02:14.760 be done, find another way, And I think there are like, 1:02:14.760 --> 1:02:17.040 like you just said, there's so many ways around it. 1:02:17.080 --> 1:02:20.400 I've seen so I've seen it done. Listen, there are 1:02:20.440 --> 1:02:21.680 ways to do it or it's like no one is 1:02:21.720 --> 1:02:23.800 going to be confused that you're watching a scene that's 1:02:24.000 --> 1:02:26.640 meant to be about childhood, sexual assault or something. Right, 1:02:26.640 --> 1:02:28.680 there are so many ways around it, and I just 1:02:28.680 --> 1:02:33.360 think like just depicting it on screen I think is 1:02:33.400 --> 1:02:36.720 the least imaginative when there are so many different ways. Like, 1:02:36.760 --> 1:02:40.600 if you're a storyteller, I always feel there's a there's 1:02:40.600 --> 1:02:42.600 a way to show something in a way that's respectful, 1:02:42.600 --> 1:02:46.720 and especially for something that's that is as fraught and 1:02:47.120 --> 1:02:50.480 sensitive as this topic. You you got, you got, you 1:02:50.520 --> 1:02:55.560 have to like be willing to work to find that solution. Yeah. 1:02:56.080 --> 1:02:58.360 I wish I wish the Casey Lemons had said more 1:02:58.400 --> 1:03:01.440 on on that, because it's like I do think that 1:03:01.480 --> 1:03:03.720 this is like one of the better told c s 1:03:03.760 --> 1:03:07.440 A stories of this decade, and it still makes a 1:03:07.480 --> 1:03:12.760 series of very common missteps that end end up you know, 1:03:13.000 --> 1:03:17.560 kind of putting definitely putting a child actor in danger 1:03:17.600 --> 1:03:23.439 and under undue pressure for a kid. Yeah. Yeah, so 1:03:23.640 --> 1:03:27.479 it's I don't know. I think like it's it's fucking hard, 1:03:27.560 --> 1:03:30.760 Like I it's I I am glad that a story 1:03:30.800 --> 1:03:33.800 like this was was being attempted to be told, but 1:03:33.880 --> 1:03:39.480 it's certainly not told perfectly. Um so yeah, yes, I 1:03:39.480 --> 1:03:43.520 mean it's it's challenging. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's like 1:03:43.520 --> 1:03:46.680 there's so few, like I can't really think of many 1:03:46.760 --> 1:03:52.360 movies that are like, yeah, nailed it, Like the closest 1:03:52.400 --> 1:03:54.840 like this is this, Like you couldn't think of a 1:03:54.880 --> 1:03:57.240 more different movie, but like one of the only movies 1:03:57.280 --> 1:04:00.720 that I feel like was really praise was heaped upon 1:04:00.800 --> 1:04:02.880 it and it had a lot to do with these 1:04:02.920 --> 1:04:07.040 themes but didn't show abuse. Is like Spotlight, Like that's 1:04:07.080 --> 1:04:11.479 one of the only movies that is centrally involves child 1:04:11.520 --> 1:04:13.920 sexual abuse and doesn't show it. And I guess Doubt 1:04:13.960 --> 1:04:17.400 does it too. But the central question around Doubt is 1:04:17.440 --> 1:04:20.120 like did it happen? When it's like that's not the question. 1:04:20.120 --> 1:04:24.600 It's not the question, at least in Spotlight. It's like, yeah, 1:04:24.680 --> 1:04:27.640 it obviously happened. It happened, that we don't need to 1:04:27.760 --> 1:04:32.240 show it on screen, but rest assured that it definitely happened, 1:04:32.360 --> 1:04:35.120 and that works. I am glad that movies like that exists. Yeah, 1:04:35.160 --> 1:04:37.400 and it can be like effective and you can come 1:04:37.440 --> 1:04:40.480 out you know, if it's framed to you a certain way. 1:04:40.640 --> 1:04:43.080 You can even have characters in the story that doubt 1:04:43.160 --> 1:04:46.840 the truth of what happened and take you through like 1:04:46.880 --> 1:04:50.160 the journey of like discovering Oh, like I should have 1:04:50.280 --> 1:04:54.640 just believed these survivors the entire time, and like it 1:04:54.680 --> 1:04:57.680 can be done because that's part of the narrative of 1:04:57.760 --> 1:05:01.120 Like a lot of people who are survivors of abuse, 1:05:01.240 --> 1:05:04.760 they face other people not believing them, or they face 1:05:04.840 --> 1:05:08.360 their own like did this happen? How did it happen 1:05:08.400 --> 1:05:11.680 at all? Happen so quickly? I don't exactly know the like, 1:05:12.480 --> 1:05:15.640 especially when you live in a culture that is inclined 1:05:15.680 --> 1:05:18.680 to not believe you and to kind of gas light 1:05:18.760 --> 1:05:23.880 you into alternate versions of reality. Like that's part of 1:05:23.960 --> 1:05:27.960 many survivors experience. But again, that's why it has to 1:05:27.960 --> 1:05:31.080 be handled so responsibly and so carefully if you're going 1:05:31.120 --> 1:05:33.920 to tell a story about it. Yeah, it's weird. It's 1:05:33.920 --> 1:05:36.800 weird because I feel like they're outside of the fact 1:05:36.840 --> 1:05:39.880 that I mean, we all agree that the actual scenes 1:05:39.960 --> 1:05:42.440 should not have been shot, but it's like to a 1:05:43.160 --> 1:05:46.120 one viewer who is inclined to believe survivors, I feel 1:05:46.160 --> 1:05:49.880 like it's all there, but it's but for people who 1:05:49.920 --> 1:05:53.240 are not inclined to believe survivors. And then also just 1:05:53.280 --> 1:05:55.800 like straight up, I can't really put myself in the 1:05:55.960 --> 1:05:59.920 mindset of like an adult, I don't. I mean, I'm 1:06:00.040 --> 1:06:04.720 curious of like what the conversations were, because I'm like, 1:06:05.400 --> 1:06:09.600 you know, they were certainly different and I and I 1:06:09.680 --> 1:06:11.120 and I bet that there were a lot of people 1:06:11.160 --> 1:06:15.840 that left with like, well, you know, I love Samuel L. Jackson, 1:06:16.120 --> 1:06:21.280 so shrug, like just unclear. Yeah, especially when you cast 1:06:21.360 --> 1:06:24.720 like huge, really famous actors and roles like that. I 1:06:24.720 --> 1:06:27.920 feel like audiences are very often like I love sam Jackson, 1:06:28.200 --> 1:06:31.760 I love Jeremy Irons, So I guess no harm, no foul, 1:06:31.880 --> 1:06:35.720 Like yeah, I honestly like I almost feel like I'm 1:06:35.760 --> 1:06:37.920 bringing a lot of my own baggage into this movie. 1:06:37.960 --> 1:06:41.360 But you know that the scene in the movie where 1:06:42.040 --> 1:06:45.960 Mozelle uh from blanking her name Lin Witfield, the mom 1:06:46.040 --> 1:06:48.240 and the grandmother are all talking and it's they're having 1:06:48.240 --> 1:06:52.360 a very adult conversation about infidelity, and uh, Samuel Jackson 1:06:52.400 --> 1:06:54.720 comes home and Cecily is like, you need to go 1:06:54.760 --> 1:06:57.479 down to the bar because the women are mad, mad, 1:06:57.560 --> 1:06:59.840 like get out of the house, you know. Again, sort 1:06:59.840 --> 1:07:03.320 of the idea of like I think Samuel L. Jackson's 1:07:03.400 --> 1:07:06.760 presence and their household was very disruptive to the to 1:07:06.840 --> 1:07:09.600 the young, to the girls, to his young daughters. I 1:07:09.640 --> 1:07:14.000 think that like he in Cheap brought his sexuality into 1:07:14.080 --> 1:07:16.920 his home in a way that made it made it 1:07:17.040 --> 1:07:19.680 his children's business, It made it was like on their minds, 1:07:19.760 --> 1:07:22.080 and I think, you know, it's clear to me that 1:07:22.080 --> 1:07:24.440 there's a lot of ambiguity in the universe of the film. 1:07:24.840 --> 1:07:26.479 But there's a scene in the film that I feel 1:07:26.520 --> 1:07:29.760 like for me, it's it's kind of like case closed. 1:07:30.560 --> 1:07:33.680 After he is shot and have his funeral, there's this 1:07:33.720 --> 1:07:37.280 scene where the mom and all the kids are in 1:07:37.400 --> 1:07:40.000 bed together and it's sort of almost this like picturesque 1:07:40.040 --> 1:07:43.480 like a frame, And it seems to me like Samuel L. 1:07:43.600 --> 1:07:46.000 Jackson was the cause of a lot of disruption in 1:07:46.000 --> 1:07:49.040 their household. Now that he is dead, their household is 1:07:49.080 --> 1:07:53.320 one of like stability and and like they're on this 1:07:53.480 --> 1:07:57.439 process of becoming healthier and healing and so like it's 1:07:57.520 --> 1:08:01.439 like obviously, you know, even sad that her father is dead, 1:08:01.480 --> 1:08:03.520 and like the funeral scene is very is very rough. 1:08:03.760 --> 1:08:05.960 But it seems it seems to me that the universe 1:08:06.000 --> 1:08:09.680 of the film is suggesting that his presence being removed 1:08:09.720 --> 1:08:12.280 from their their domestic life, is what gives them the 1:08:12.320 --> 1:08:16.439 ability to like have this kind of chance, a little 1:08:16.439 --> 1:08:19.519 more stability and a little more like, you know, a 1:08:19.560 --> 1:08:21.400 little more like I don't even know the word for it, 1:08:21.439 --> 1:08:27.840 like domestic just not having yeah, yeah, true, Yeah, it's 1:08:27.840 --> 1:08:30.880 what the It's what the fortune teller says to she says, 1:08:30.960 --> 1:08:34.439 just wait for three years and you'll be happy and right, 1:08:34.520 --> 1:08:37.639 you'll have peace. That's why I am, like, I am 1:08:37.720 --> 1:08:40.919 frustrated it and kind of like it to some extent, 1:08:41.120 --> 1:08:43.960 like inclined to be like it's all there in the writing, 1:08:44.080 --> 1:08:47.120 and it's like you didn't see it. You you didn't 1:08:47.160 --> 1:08:50.040 see it, you know, but it's like, you know, but 1:08:50.120 --> 1:08:54.200 in a lot of audience members didn't see it. If 1:08:54.200 --> 1:08:56.439 there's still people in that are like, I don't know, 1:08:56.479 --> 1:08:59.600 but I feel like, you know, I don't know. It 1:08:59.720 --> 1:09:03.160 gets so tricky because you I just don't like, I 1:09:03.200 --> 1:09:08.679 feel like everything you need to know is in the story. Right, 1:09:08.760 --> 1:09:11.640 But it's like some of it is pretty subtle. Some 1:09:11.720 --> 1:09:14.080 of it you need to like really be paying attention, 1:09:14.240 --> 1:09:15.880 or some of it you just need to kind of have, 1:09:16.160 --> 1:09:19.559 like I don't know, like a particular perspective that is 1:09:19.640 --> 1:09:22.479 going to believe the children, because I feel like if 1:09:22.520 --> 1:09:26.120 you can get yourself into that mindset, all the information 1:09:26.160 --> 1:09:30.120 you need is there. But the fact that I don't know, it's, yeah, 1:09:30.200 --> 1:09:33.640 it's you can't put it entirely on the artist to 1:09:33.720 --> 1:09:37.240 be like you have to spoon feed to every male 1:09:37.280 --> 1:09:42.040 audience viewer that this is a bad thing. Like it 1:09:42.200 --> 1:09:45.760 sucks that it's like that that is still kind of 1:09:45.800 --> 1:09:48.880 a reality, do you know what I mean? Like I 1:09:48.920 --> 1:09:54.120 wish that we could make more subtle films about topics 1:09:54.160 --> 1:09:57.599 like this, but it's just such an underdiscussed issue that 1:09:57.760 --> 1:10:00.240 people don't fucking get it. And it's like you need 1:10:00.320 --> 1:10:04.800 movies like fucking Spotlight where it's literally taking the little 1:10:04.840 --> 1:10:06.760 apple sauce and putting it in your mouth of like 1:10:06.920 --> 1:10:09.559 this is a crime, this is bad, eat your food, 1:10:10.120 --> 1:10:14.280 don't do crimes, you know. Like it's just so there's 1:10:14.360 --> 1:10:18.599 no like like in the way that there for for 1:10:18.680 --> 1:10:22.680 other issues, there has been more you know room for 1:10:23.720 --> 1:10:28.519 subtlety in art, there isn't on this issue, and I 1:10:28.560 --> 1:10:30.559 think that that, you know, sucks for artists who have 1:10:30.680 --> 1:10:32.960 experienced it and want to speak to it and there aren't, 1:10:33.040 --> 1:10:35.240 Like it kind of sucks. It's like if the worst 1:10:35.240 --> 1:10:37.160 thing you've ever been through you want to make some 1:10:37.240 --> 1:10:39.840 sort of artistic expression of that, and then you're like, 1:10:39.880 --> 1:10:43.439 but I have to make it really fucking obvious or 1:10:43.800 --> 1:10:46.200 people are gonna think I'm endorsing the worst thing that's 1:10:46.200 --> 1:10:48.679 ever happened to me. Like it's such a catch twenty 1:10:48.720 --> 1:10:56.919 two of the Like, it's really frustrating. It's really frustrating. 1:10:56.960 --> 1:11:00.120 Like I don't think it's necessarily like I think you 1:11:00.160 --> 1:11:04.120 can hold Casey Lemons personally accountable for allowing that scene 1:11:04.160 --> 1:11:07.920 to be shot and that that is like ultimately on her, 1:11:08.240 --> 1:11:13.080 but in terms of how people misinterpret her work when 1:11:13.120 --> 1:11:16.760 all the answers are there, like I mean, it's like 1:11:16.800 --> 1:11:19.639 I think that it is, like it would be better 1:11:19.720 --> 1:11:22.639 served if it were made extremely clear. But I also 1:11:22.640 --> 1:11:24.960 don't want to be like, and Casey Lemons is wrong 1:11:25.720 --> 1:11:29.840 for not having done that, because it's like she clearly knows, 1:11:30.120 --> 1:11:31.960 you know, like she gave us all the you know, 1:11:32.000 --> 1:11:33.760 it's like what if? What was that? What was that 1:11:33.880 --> 1:11:36.720 ridiculous movie? That's like Mr Policeman, I gave you all 1:11:36.720 --> 1:11:41.240 the clues. That's literally Casey Lemons in this script like 1:11:41.720 --> 1:11:44.880 she gave you all the clues, you did not solve 1:11:44.960 --> 1:11:52.360 the case. And that is on society, right, Like, yeah, 1:11:52.400 --> 1:11:56.040 well how about this. Let's take a quick break and 1:11:56.680 --> 1:12:07.080 really collect ourselves and will come back for more and 1:12:07.160 --> 1:12:14.240 we're back, all right, where shall we pivot? I know, 1:12:14.320 --> 1:12:17.400 I feel poorn, Jamie. It's like all childhood, all talking 1:12:17.400 --> 1:12:20.320 about childhood sexual assault all the time for you, now right, 1:12:22.120 --> 1:12:26.200 it is my new area of expertise. I hate it. 1:12:26.920 --> 1:12:29.040 But but there's so much else to talk about with 1:12:29.080 --> 1:12:34.880 this movie as well. Yes, where should we start? Well, 1:12:35.120 --> 1:12:38.920 first of all, one thing that is very much worth 1:12:38.960 --> 1:12:43.599 noting is that this is a coming of age story 1:12:43.720 --> 1:12:47.240 for a black girl, which is something that we almost 1:12:47.280 --> 1:12:51.639 never see in Hollywood cinema. It is a kind of 1:12:51.720 --> 1:12:56.120 narrative arc that is reserved almost exclusively for white children. 1:12:56.880 --> 1:13:00.120 So the fact that a black girl is the focus 1:13:00.520 --> 1:13:05.040 is awesome. That it is a story fraught with such 1:13:05.360 --> 1:13:11.800 like turmoil and trauma is I guess what I'm saying 1:13:11.840 --> 1:13:14.360 is I would love to see more coming of age 1:13:14.400 --> 1:13:20.000 stories about black indigenous people of color that are less 1:13:20.120 --> 1:13:26.640 steeped in so much trauma and are focused on more, 1:13:26.760 --> 1:13:29.160 you know, some of the more joyous aspects of coming 1:13:29.200 --> 1:13:33.280 of age. But even so, um, this is kind of 1:13:33.280 --> 1:13:35.840 a monumental film, and that it is one of the 1:13:36.280 --> 1:13:40.320 few coming of age stories about a black girl and 1:13:40.360 --> 1:13:43.800 black children. So yeah, and I think, like, you know, 1:13:43.840 --> 1:13:46.719 we've talked a lot about some of the heavier aspects 1:13:46.720 --> 1:13:50.200 of this film, but there are you know, the film 1:13:50.240 --> 1:13:54.080 it's not it's not entirely heavy, right, Like Eve has 1:13:54.120 --> 1:13:57.200 a good relationship with her sister and brother. You get 1:13:57.240 --> 1:14:00.680 to see, like there are some scenes of Sicily and 1:14:00.720 --> 1:14:03.080 Eve interacting that I that I really liked. It's like, 1:14:03.080 --> 1:14:05.720 oh you get you get to see like the tenderness 1:14:05.760 --> 1:14:08.599 of girlhood when she puts the snake on her brother 1:14:08.720 --> 1:14:12.680 post pillow, like you get to see the like, you know, mischievousness. Yes, 1:14:12.680 --> 1:14:16.080 it's like you know, I there there were parts of 1:14:16.080 --> 1:14:17.880 it that I thought were nice to be depicted. Also, 1:14:17.920 --> 1:14:22.680 it's like, I mean, I'm a sucker for like Louisiana 1:14:22.960 --> 1:14:26.559 kind of that like like languid, like you know, oh 1:14:26.760 --> 1:14:29.439 like the Bayou and the and the Weeping Willows. Like 1:14:29.840 --> 1:14:34.080 it's quite a picturesque movie, and like it it depicts 1:14:34.120 --> 1:14:36.600 the outdoors in a really beautiful way. And like, we 1:14:37.160 --> 1:14:40.040 don't get a lot of movies where it's about black 1:14:40.080 --> 1:14:43.479 girlhood on the backdrop of outdoor beauty. That's something that 1:14:43.560 --> 1:14:46.240 like I love and you don't get a lot of. Um, 1:14:46.240 --> 1:14:48.320 So this movie, there is a lot of like in 1:14:48.640 --> 1:14:51.400 addition to the heavier aspects of it that we've talked about, 1:14:51.600 --> 1:14:54.400 there is some like joy, There is some like beauty, 1:14:54.600 --> 1:14:55.800 you know what. I think it really does a nice 1:14:55.880 --> 1:14:59.120 job of depicting some elements of black girlhood that we 1:14:59.160 --> 1:15:03.080 don't necessarily to see explored on screen very often. For sure. Yeah, 1:15:03.120 --> 1:15:06.000 there are those scenes that like are scenes of levity 1:15:06.520 --> 1:15:09.280 I love and are probably my favorite scenes in the movie, 1:15:09.360 --> 1:15:12.280 especially that kind of chunk where they're all cooped up 1:15:12.320 --> 1:15:15.760 in the house and everyone's just like playing pranks on 1:15:15.800 --> 1:15:20.479 each other or um again, that scene where Eve is 1:15:20.520 --> 1:15:25.080 just sort of lashing out and yelling at everyone. And yeah, 1:15:25.120 --> 1:15:26.920 like you said, I mean, you see these really interesting 1:15:26.960 --> 1:15:31.679 relationships between women and girls. You see this relationship between 1:15:31.720 --> 1:15:36.280 the two sisters, You see mother daughter relationships. You see 1:15:36.400 --> 1:15:42.000 even her aunt Moselle, all these female relationships being explored 1:15:42.400 --> 1:15:45.200 again in a way that like most movies don't bother 1:15:46.560 --> 1:15:50.559 And with Eve specifically, I mean, she's just like a 1:15:50.880 --> 1:15:55.080 really cool character. I feel like it's like people very 1:15:55.160 --> 1:15:57.000 I don't know, writers really often kind of missed the 1:15:57.040 --> 1:16:01.120 mark on like making a highly motivated and like fun 1:16:01.680 --> 1:16:05.759 child character who was also clearly constricted by the limits 1:16:05.800 --> 1:16:08.840 that childhood imposes on you. And I feel like the 1:16:08.880 --> 1:16:11.920 way that Casey Lemon's rights, Eve really like toes that 1:16:11.960 --> 1:16:15.360 line in a cool way, because it's like even honestly, 1:16:15.400 --> 1:16:18.439 like when I first read the kind of synopsis of 1:16:18.479 --> 1:16:21.680 this movie, I thought this whole movie was going to 1:16:21.760 --> 1:16:25.559 be like Eve being successfully gas lit by her family 1:16:25.680 --> 1:16:28.920 that this never happened, and I was pleasantly surprised that 1:16:29.040 --> 1:16:32.840 she For the most part, it's like she retains her 1:16:32.880 --> 1:16:36.360 truth of what happened pretty consistently, and she is like 1:16:36.680 --> 1:16:39.920 frustrated and confused that the people in her life are 1:16:39.920 --> 1:16:42.920 trying to tell her it didn't happen. Like her dad 1:16:43.120 --> 1:16:46.040 immediately is like, don't worry, that was nothing. That was nothing, 1:16:46.080 --> 1:16:49.200 And then she goes to Cecily, which I honestly read 1:16:49.240 --> 1:16:52.120 of like Cecily probably not like I don't know. I 1:16:52.120 --> 1:16:56.040 I think with some of Cecily's storylines, I plugged myself 1:16:56.080 --> 1:17:00.439 into like big sister mode and thought, like, you know, 1:17:00.479 --> 1:17:03.080 if my little brother came to me saying that he 1:17:03.120 --> 1:17:05.360 had seen, you know, my dad doing something awful that 1:17:05.439 --> 1:17:08.559 I already knew about, I probably would you know, at 1:17:08.600 --> 1:17:10.800 that age, would have like defaulted to be like no, 1:17:10.800 --> 1:17:12.880 no, no no, no, no, no, don't worry, because you don't 1:17:12.920 --> 1:17:15.280 want your younger sibling to take on the same like 1:17:15.760 --> 1:17:18.920 psychic weight of how funked up your parents are that 1:17:19.000 --> 1:17:22.839 you do. And so it's like, but Eve still knows 1:17:22.880 --> 1:17:26.719 pretty consistently, like she tells the same story every time. 1:17:26.800 --> 1:17:30.280 She's like, and it's more like I know it, I saw, 1:17:30.400 --> 1:17:32.280 but everyone keeps telling me it's not true. And the 1:17:32.360 --> 1:17:35.160 question is more like why is that? As opposed to 1:17:35.200 --> 1:17:38.560 like I must be wrong? Like I like how confident 1:17:38.680 --> 1:17:41.920 she is in what she saw, And it's like more 1:17:42.000 --> 1:17:45.439 navigating her confusion of like why are people avoiding this 1:17:45.560 --> 1:17:49.639 uncomfortable truth? Yeah, and she doesn't avoid it as soon 1:17:49.640 --> 1:17:52.920 as Cecily tells her, She's like, let's kill Dad, Like 1:17:52.960 --> 1:17:59.000 she like, let's set up kill him. It's amazing, Like, 1:18:00.320 --> 1:18:03.960 and I think importantly, you know, Cecily makes up that 1:18:04.080 --> 1:18:07.040 story of like, oh you know, uh, the the woman 1:18:07.479 --> 1:18:09.639 fell into dad and they were laughing, blah blah blah. 1:18:09.840 --> 1:18:12.240 And then later she's like, I I as soon as 1:18:12.280 --> 1:18:14.640 you said it, I believed you. You know. So you know, 1:18:14.720 --> 1:18:18.840 it's it's clear that like, you know, Cecily deep down 1:18:19.120 --> 1:18:21.200 know she's telling the truth. And really it is it 1:18:21.320 --> 1:18:26.000 is eves unfaltering ability to see the truth and speak 1:18:26.040 --> 1:18:28.400 the truth throughout the movie, and that you're right. It's 1:18:28.439 --> 1:18:30.960 important to note that she doesn't falter, that she's like, no, 1:18:31.080 --> 1:18:32.800 I know what I saw, I know what's going on. 1:18:33.000 --> 1:18:37.240 I'm going to continue to speak on it, right. Yeah. 1:18:37.280 --> 1:18:39.800 That that which kind of like brings to this the 1:18:40.040 --> 1:18:45.800 like the cycle of like gaslighting that it's I don't know, 1:18:45.880 --> 1:18:48.200 like the yeah, the cycle of gaslighting that takes place 1:18:48.320 --> 1:18:50.960 with the women in this family and kind of how 1:18:51.120 --> 1:18:56.519 that is structured it like I felt somewhat familiar to 1:18:56.600 --> 1:18:58.960 me in a lot of ways, especially I mean this 1:18:59.000 --> 1:19:02.120 has taking place in this sixties, right, So we are 1:19:02.200 --> 1:19:04.720 to sort of assume that her mother Roz, like there's 1:19:04.760 --> 1:19:08.280 not a ton of career options, there's not a you know, 1:19:08.400 --> 1:19:11.760 a lot of welcomeness to the idea of being divorced, 1:19:11.800 --> 1:19:15.280 of being a single parent, and like her autonomy is 1:19:15.400 --> 1:19:18.840 fairly limited by being married to this powerful man in 1:19:18.840 --> 1:19:22.080 the community, and she seems to be very aware of 1:19:22.120 --> 1:19:26.519 that um And so it's it's like broke my heart 1:19:26.520 --> 1:19:28.439 at all these different points in the movie to see 1:19:28.520 --> 1:19:34.680 these relationships between women kind of be like, I don't know, 1:19:34.760 --> 1:19:38.760 like passing on this generational guilt and this generational trauma 1:19:38.920 --> 1:19:42.479 onto each other because it's like, I don't know, I 1:19:42.479 --> 1:19:43.880 don't know. I was like trying to think of how 1:19:43.920 --> 1:19:48.000 to phrase this correctly, but I feel like at times 1:19:48.000 --> 1:19:50.800 like ros is a shitty parent. At a bunch of 1:19:50.800 --> 1:19:53.799 different points, she locks her kids in the house for 1:19:54.160 --> 1:19:57.639 no reason really. When Eve confronts her with the truth, 1:19:57.760 --> 1:20:00.200 she can't handle it, and so instead she punished as 1:20:00.240 --> 1:20:03.519 her kids who are trying to understand what's going on 1:20:03.600 --> 1:20:06.160 in their own household. But you know that it's coming 1:20:06.200 --> 1:20:09.640 from this place of deep trauma that she holds and 1:20:09.760 --> 1:20:14.400 instead of I don't know. It's just so hopeless in 1:20:14.439 --> 1:20:16.800 some ways because it's like, well, who could Ross turn 1:20:16.880 --> 1:20:19.240 to that could really help her, Like she knows that 1:20:19.320 --> 1:20:21.280 she doesn't really have anyone who can help her, and 1:20:21.320 --> 1:20:25.400 so instead like she's kind of to some extent protect 1:20:25.600 --> 1:20:27.760 that she I think she thinks she's protecting her kids, 1:20:27.800 --> 1:20:29.880 but in a lot of ways she's like taking it 1:20:29.920 --> 1:20:33.439 out and her kids. It's just I just really see 1:20:33.439 --> 1:20:35.759 the ways in this movie that the adults are making 1:20:35.880 --> 1:20:40.360 their traumas, their hang ups, their issues, they're just putting 1:20:40.360 --> 1:20:42.559 them on their kids, and they're really things that are 1:20:42.600 --> 1:20:44.840 just too heavy for their kids because their kids right 1:20:45.120 --> 1:20:49.600 right right, there's that scene to where Ros and Mozelle 1:20:49.720 --> 1:20:51.880 are like taking a stroll and then they like come 1:20:51.960 --> 1:20:55.160 up on that market. But before that, Ros is like complaining, 1:20:55.240 --> 1:20:59.640 like confiding in Moselle about her like crumbling marriage and 1:20:59.680 --> 1:21:04.960 how you know her husband who's unfaithful, and Moselle is 1:21:05.040 --> 1:21:10.040 just like, well, um just waited around, and you know 1:21:10.120 --> 1:21:12.640 one day he'll finally see what he already has and 1:21:12.680 --> 1:21:15.120 he'll stop chasing for it. And it's like that's not 1:21:15.320 --> 1:21:17.960 good advice. But I in seeing that, like I also 1:21:18.040 --> 1:21:22.880 believe that Moselle knows that's not true. Like I don't know, 1:21:23.000 --> 1:21:25.560 it's I guess maybe like this was my intern, but 1:21:25.600 --> 1:21:28.920 it just felt like most of the like the grown 1:21:28.960 --> 1:21:32.160 women in this movie were all pretty aware that like 1:21:32.920 --> 1:21:38.280 Louis was not a good father or a good husband, 1:21:38.360 --> 1:21:42.000 he was just a good provider. And then that was 1:21:42.439 --> 1:21:45.120 like there wasn't much they could do about it, and 1:21:45.200 --> 1:21:49.160 like it's just I don't know. It made me so sad. 1:21:49.240 --> 1:21:52.879 And and the relationship between Cecily and Roz as well, 1:21:52.920 --> 1:21:56.439 like I feel like speaks a lot too. Why Cecily 1:21:56.479 --> 1:21:58.920 reacts the way she does in some moments where like 1:21:59.160 --> 1:22:04.160 her attempts to rebel and challenge her her mom's pretty 1:22:04.240 --> 1:22:08.200 like irrational ways of dealing with her kids are met 1:22:08.240 --> 1:22:11.920 with like violence and like threats, like she is like 1:22:12.080 --> 1:22:15.080 hit by her mom. And then when it seems like 1:22:15.160 --> 1:22:17.680 ros might be trying to kind of like reconcile with her, 1:22:17.800 --> 1:22:21.160 she's like, I understand, like I see a lot of 1:22:21.200 --> 1:22:23.880 myself in you, but if you do something like that again, 1:22:24.320 --> 1:22:27.080 you're fucked. And it's like, well, then why would Cecily 1:22:27.160 --> 1:22:31.360 feel comfortable going to her mother with this abuse that 1:22:31.439 --> 1:22:33.559 she experienced, Like her mother's kind of made it clear 1:22:33.680 --> 1:22:36.720 that she's not open to hearing it, like she's very 1:22:36.720 --> 1:22:39.760 closed off and you understand why too. So it's just 1:22:39.840 --> 1:22:45.920 like ah, yeah, yeah, there's the scene when Roz slaps Cecily. 1:22:46.479 --> 1:22:48.479 You know, something that I think is important to know 1:22:48.680 --> 1:22:52.120 is that Cecily, you know, Roz has had all the 1:22:52.200 --> 1:22:55.400 kids trapped in the house, fucking version suicide style if 1:22:55.400 --> 1:22:58.240 they can't leave. And that's like what I was thinking 1:22:58.280 --> 1:23:00.720 the whole time. I was like minding me of the 1:23:00.760 --> 1:23:04.120 version suicide. Um, it's it's it's similar. Is there's some 1:23:04.160 --> 1:23:06.679 there's some interesting you know. And also I was like, oh, 1:23:06.720 --> 1:23:09.080 like shout out to that quarantine life. I know all 1:23:09.120 --> 1:23:15.519 about it. Um. But so so when Cecily goes to 1:23:15.560 --> 1:23:19.080 the hairdresser, this is just something that like I picked 1:23:19.160 --> 1:23:21.439 up on as a like black girl who was raised 1:23:21.439 --> 1:23:23.880 by a black mom. You know, in the whole movie, 1:23:23.880 --> 1:23:26.479 Cecily has very long hair, and when she goes to 1:23:26.520 --> 1:23:28.200 the beauty parlor, she comes back and her hair has 1:23:28.200 --> 1:23:31.559 been cut, And so I know that like that, like 1:23:31.800 --> 1:23:34.920 my mom and I have that exact same argument where 1:23:35.400 --> 1:23:37.960 I like, I think it is a symbol of a 1:23:38.000 --> 1:23:40.759 certain kind of black girlhood to have like long, straight 1:23:40.800 --> 1:23:43.760 hair past your shoulders. And Cecily being like, you know, 1:23:43.840 --> 1:23:47.320 I'm a I'm a I'm asserting my own body autonomy. 1:23:47.320 --> 1:23:49.679 I'm going to cut my hair. When she takes off 1:23:49.720 --> 1:23:52.240 that rain hood and her mom sees that her hair 1:23:52.280 --> 1:23:56.240 has been cut, that's like a that's like a shift, right. 1:23:56.280 --> 1:23:59.160 She's like, you know, this girl thinks she's grown. And 1:23:59.200 --> 1:24:01.679 I think like that is another part of the dynamic 1:24:01.720 --> 1:24:04.559 I think is there between them where Cecily is really 1:24:05.160 --> 1:24:08.840 trying to figure out what it means for her to be, 1:24:09.000 --> 1:24:12.519 like go from girlhood to like young womanhood, and her 1:24:12.560 --> 1:24:18.519 mom is clearly not able to shepherd her over that 1:24:18.600 --> 1:24:20.400 threshold in a way that you would want any you 1:24:20.439 --> 1:24:21.800 would want your mom to be. That's like what we 1:24:21.800 --> 1:24:24.400 were saying, like like her mom is not able to 1:24:24.479 --> 1:24:27.000 be there for her, not not open to hearing what 1:24:27.160 --> 1:24:30.000 she has to say. And I think that, Yeah, it's 1:24:30.040 --> 1:24:33.559 not surprising to me that Cecily would be completely not 1:24:33.680 --> 1:24:36.120 able to open up to her mom about what's actually 1:24:36.120 --> 1:24:38.160 going on in her life because her mom has has 1:24:38.240 --> 1:24:41.160 made it clear that what's important to her is not 1:24:41.360 --> 1:24:44.320 how her kid is doing, what her kids needs, It's 1:24:44.360 --> 1:24:48.960 about kind of trying to maintain some sense of order 1:24:49.000 --> 1:24:53.760 in this increasingly chaotic household. Yeah, absolutely, and the way 1:24:53.800 --> 1:24:56.200 that like I don't know that I thought that this 1:24:56.320 --> 1:24:58.400 was like this was like such a story of like 1:24:58.680 --> 1:25:05.679 women and girls processing guilt and like taking on so 1:25:05.760 --> 1:25:09.360 much guilt for things that it's like no, no, no, 1:25:09.520 --> 1:25:12.400 Like there's so many moments and I feel like it 1:25:12.439 --> 1:25:15.200 happens with by the end, it happens to Eve as well. 1:25:15.240 --> 1:25:18.719 But it's like, you know, Moselle is really guilt ridden 1:25:18.760 --> 1:25:21.320 for feeling that she is responsible for the death of 1:25:21.800 --> 1:25:27.880 her first husband when it's like she did not put Yeah, 1:25:27.960 --> 1:25:29.680 but I'm talking about the specifically the one that got 1:25:29.680 --> 1:25:33.479 shot in the joke, but like she Yeah, she's kind 1:25:33.479 --> 1:25:35.439 of taken on this guilt and it's like I am 1:25:35.640 --> 1:25:38.200 a murderer when it's like it is not ideal to 1:25:38.320 --> 1:25:40.240 she done your spouse, but that does not make you 1:25:40.320 --> 1:25:43.240 responsible for their murder, you know what I mean? And 1:25:43.320 --> 1:25:47.000 like there's that guilt. We see Raws take on guilt 1:25:47.120 --> 1:25:51.040 when Cecily becomes more withdrawn and it's like, is it 1:25:51.120 --> 1:25:54.160 because I did this? I did this? And in that way, 1:25:54.160 --> 1:25:55.960 she's kind of right because she did hit her daughter, 1:25:56.040 --> 1:26:00.360 But like it's just like you see every woman and 1:26:00.400 --> 1:26:03.160 girl in this story to some degree, whether they're right 1:26:03.200 --> 1:26:05.120 to be doing it or not, just take on a 1:26:05.160 --> 1:26:07.320 massive amount of guilt. And you don't see any man 1:26:07.520 --> 1:26:11.120 in this story. Like Samuel L. Jackson's whole narrative is 1:26:11.280 --> 1:26:14.840 his ability to deflect guilt and deflect the idea that 1:26:14.880 --> 1:26:18.599 he could do something wrong, where meanwhile he's surrounded by 1:26:18.600 --> 1:26:21.600 women who are taking on that guilt for him and 1:26:21.600 --> 1:26:24.760 then also taking on additional guilt for things that they 1:26:24.840 --> 1:26:28.120 have nothing to do with their own actions. Yes, like 1:26:28.280 --> 1:26:31.080 that one guy shoots Samuel L. Jackson, that's a friend 1:26:31.120 --> 1:26:33.880 of his. You never, like, you just never hear from 1:26:33.920 --> 1:26:37.519 him again. It's like, oh yeah, Like they don't even 1:26:37.560 --> 1:26:40.960 like explore it. That's why I'm really happy that at 1:26:41.000 --> 1:26:43.880 the end, Mozelle, who has taken on all this guilt, 1:26:44.200 --> 1:26:50.120 she meets her like long haired, jeans wearing painter lover 1:26:50.479 --> 1:26:53.639 who like, I'm just assuming all they're doing is fucking, 1:26:53.720 --> 1:26:56.519 and she's getting portraits of herself painted and like by 1:26:56.600 --> 1:26:59.000 the end she's like, yeah, I'm marrying him. I don't 1:26:59.040 --> 1:27:01.439 care what that that old witch said. I'm going to 1:27:01.560 --> 1:27:04.080 marry him, and like maybe we'll die together, like I'm 1:27:04.080 --> 1:27:05.960 happy that by the end of the movie she has 1:27:06.000 --> 1:27:09.400 had a trajectory where she's like, yeah, I can continue 1:27:09.479 --> 1:27:13.320 to I'm deserving of love. I can continue to seek 1:27:13.400 --> 1:27:15.880 out love and marry, marry a man who loves me, 1:27:16.280 --> 1:27:18.439 you know, and like spend the rest of my days 1:27:18.560 --> 1:27:22.720 like getting my portrait painted. I love that she like 1:27:23.000 --> 1:27:27.320 chooses joy at the end, and like almost I don't know, 1:27:27.479 --> 1:27:29.559 I kind of I would really be curious of like 1:27:29.800 --> 1:27:32.760 Casey Lemons thought about kind of that platfoint, but I 1:27:32.800 --> 1:27:35.800 felt like that's almost like a severing of this like 1:27:35.880 --> 1:27:39.080 quote unquote curse that it seems like a haunting this 1:27:39.360 --> 1:27:43.800 family when it's like, no, it's she's gonna assert what 1:27:43.920 --> 1:27:47.400 she wants. She's gonna like that's nice. I want I 1:27:47.439 --> 1:27:49.960 want the best for her. And I thought it was 1:27:49.960 --> 1:27:54.680 really interesting with Moselle as well, that I don't know 1:27:54.960 --> 1:27:58.559 she's like, first of all, like the performance by Debbie 1:27:58.640 --> 1:28:03.519 Morgan is like it's so good. But on top of that, 1:28:03.560 --> 1:28:06.200 like where I thought it was interesting that she is, 1:28:06.479 --> 1:28:10.200 you know, Samuel L. Jackson's sister, and to watch her 1:28:10.240 --> 1:28:14.160 it felt very like of this time that she is 1:28:14.240 --> 1:28:18.360 like kind of defensive about him, like if something comes 1:28:18.400 --> 1:28:20.639 up with him, whether it's from Ros, whether it's from Eve, 1:28:20.880 --> 1:28:24.200 whether it's from Sicily, She's always like, we're not talking 1:28:24.240 --> 1:28:26.519 about that. I can even believe you, and we're not 1:28:26.560 --> 1:28:28.840 talking about that. But then you find out at the 1:28:28.920 --> 1:28:31.240 end of the movie, you know it's not enough, right 1:28:31.280 --> 1:28:34.960 because she should be taking these women who she loves 1:28:35.320 --> 1:28:38.639 seriously and at their word over her brother, who she 1:28:38.960 --> 1:28:43.400 we know knows is an abusive person. How much power 1:28:43.520 --> 1:28:45.799 she has to stop it is kind of up for question, 1:28:45.880 --> 1:28:48.799 but like she could. I just thought it was interesting 1:28:48.840 --> 1:28:50.400 at the end that the movie kind of goes out 1:28:50.400 --> 1:28:53.040 of its way to tell you that there was a 1:28:53.080 --> 1:28:58.000 confrontation between them that where where Moselle said explicitly like 1:28:58.439 --> 1:29:00.479 how could you have done this to my niece? What 1:29:00.600 --> 1:29:02.720 the funk it? Like, it's clear that they came to 1:29:02.840 --> 1:29:07.200 blows about this, and then Moselle did believe Cecily the 1:29:07.400 --> 1:29:10.600 entire time, and that like, I don't know, it's it 1:29:10.720 --> 1:29:13.920 just like again, it just like felt familiar in a 1:29:13.960 --> 1:29:19.600 really frustrating way of like just how imperfectly and frustrating 1:29:19.680 --> 1:29:21.439 these things can fall out where you can like talk 1:29:21.479 --> 1:29:23.240 to someone and be like I don't think that person 1:29:23.280 --> 1:29:26.000 believed me, when in fact they may have, but they 1:29:26.040 --> 1:29:28.240 didn't know how to deal with it, and so then 1:29:28.080 --> 1:29:29.960 they go to yell at someone else and just like 1:29:30.040 --> 1:29:33.000 this whole I don't know the way that like trauma 1:29:33.040 --> 1:29:35.200 could be passed on through this whole chain of events 1:29:35.200 --> 1:29:39.360 and interactions and like it's all done so imperfectly, and 1:29:39.560 --> 1:29:42.519 I don't know, it's just also messy, but you also 1:29:42.680 --> 1:29:46.080 sort of at least can understand where most people are 1:29:46.080 --> 1:29:51.439 coming from, even if you disagree, Like, ah, but isn't 1:29:51.520 --> 1:29:54.040 that how it is? Like I mean that that quote 1:29:54.080 --> 1:29:56.720 that that Caitlin opened the episode with this like so 1:29:56.960 --> 1:30:00.200 is so spot on, Like isn't that how it is? 1:30:00.240 --> 1:30:02.200 Like there are so many things from my childhood where 1:30:02.200 --> 1:30:04.920 I'm like, oh, like this thing happened, and you know 1:30:04.960 --> 1:30:06.760 I didn't I didn't like it, but you know, I 1:30:06.760 --> 1:30:08.800 can understand where they're coming I can understand why she 1:30:08.840 --> 1:30:10.639 did this, she was trying to protect me whatever. Like 1:30:11.080 --> 1:30:14.560 I think that when you go back and you deconstruct 1:30:14.560 --> 1:30:18.080 your memories that were so complicated and fraud I think 1:30:18.120 --> 1:30:21.640 that it's always like this sort of frustrating and unsatisfying, 1:30:21.800 --> 1:30:24.920 but but also kind of you can sort of see 1:30:24.920 --> 1:30:28.000 where they're coming from, if that makes sense. Yeah, I 1:30:28.000 --> 1:30:30.960 feel like I mean that's like I don't know, that's 1:30:31.000 --> 1:30:33.120 like I definitely feel that way about my parents a 1:30:33.160 --> 1:30:36.840 lot at the time of Like, God, I the execution 1:30:37.080 --> 1:30:41.400 was extraordinarily bad, but I can like acknowledge what they 1:30:41.439 --> 1:30:44.320 were going through while they were making those decisions and 1:30:44.479 --> 1:30:46.920 still think they were wrong for A, B and C. 1:30:47.120 --> 1:30:49.960 And just like that, especially the fact that this movie, 1:30:50.640 --> 1:30:53.200 you know, it takes place in the nineteen sixties, where 1:30:53.200 --> 1:30:57.280 like the power dynamics are even huger, and like the 1:30:57.360 --> 1:30:59.960 disparity of how much power these women would have had 1:31:00.040 --> 1:31:02.240 to get away from this guy. It seems like that there. 1:31:02.280 --> 1:31:05.400 You know, it's the only reason that Moselle is kind 1:31:05.439 --> 1:31:08.080 of like making her own living is because she doesn't 1:31:08.080 --> 1:31:14.040 have another option. M Well, that might bring us to 1:31:14.160 --> 1:31:18.000 a quick discussion on the way voodoo is represented in 1:31:18.040 --> 1:31:22.799 the movie. So we talked about this on our Princess 1:31:22.800 --> 1:31:27.160 and the Frog episode about how voodoo is often very 1:31:27.160 --> 1:31:31.479 wildly misrepresented in Hollywood, and that really extends to any 1:31:32.120 --> 1:31:36.680 African diaspora religion, but you know, voodoo is the one 1:31:36.680 --> 1:31:41.280 that is most popularly depicted in Hollywood. The representation usually 1:31:41.360 --> 1:31:44.240 paints these religions as being just like rooted in evil. 1:31:44.439 --> 1:31:48.240 It's like dark magic, there's violence, and the demonization of 1:31:48.280 --> 1:31:52.360 these religions has everything to do with racism. So I 1:31:52.439 --> 1:31:57.280 was like, I was curious about just like how voodoo 1:31:57.360 --> 1:31:59.680 in this movie is represented, because it's a pretty big 1:31:59.680 --> 1:32:04.639 compoe of the story we see practice. I don't know 1:32:05.000 --> 1:32:10.360 how authentic um the practices of voodoo are. I couldn't 1:32:10.400 --> 1:32:17.640 find any writing on how well Louisiana voodoo is represented 1:32:17.800 --> 1:32:20.639 specifically in this film, and I don't know enough about 1:32:20.640 --> 1:32:24.120 the religion to comment on it, but I did read 1:32:24.160 --> 1:32:27.439 the Casey Lemons said she didn't really do any research 1:32:27.520 --> 1:32:32.960 on voodoo before writing the movie, and it shove. I 1:32:33.040 --> 1:32:34.720 was like, it does. I was just like, yeah, I 1:32:34.760 --> 1:32:36.760 guess that this is like all it does seem kind 1:32:36.800 --> 1:32:39.440 of like off the top of your head, like rehashing 1:32:39.520 --> 1:32:42.639 of things that we've seen of like how how voodoo 1:32:42.640 --> 1:32:46.920 has been represented in other movies. Yeah, I honestly didn't 1:32:46.920 --> 1:32:49.479 do a ton of research on this end and kind 1:32:49.479 --> 1:32:52.000 of went in with the assumption that because I looked 1:32:52.000 --> 1:32:56.200 into like Casey Lemons is like back history of like, Okay, 1:32:56.479 --> 1:32:59.640 so I can't find any reason that she would know. 1:33:00.320 --> 1:33:02.439 And then I was like, I'm just assuming that it's wrong. 1:33:02.439 --> 1:33:05.800 Every time you see like voodoo represented in American movies, 1:33:05.880 --> 1:33:07.720 I just kind of I'm like, I'm assuming this is 1:33:07.720 --> 1:33:10.479 way off. But I don't know. I feel the same way. 1:33:10.520 --> 1:33:12.320 I mean, I couldn't tell you if this is like 1:33:12.800 --> 1:33:16.639 an authentic depiction of Louisiana voodoo. I'm going to assume 1:33:16.720 --> 1:33:19.479 not because it was nineteen seven, and I think that, like, 1:33:19.920 --> 1:33:24.360 you know, there are certain like visual signifiers that I 1:33:24.400 --> 1:33:27.040 think are there that I'm like, oh, yeah, she probably 1:33:27.600 --> 1:33:29.479 and like no offense to her. She probably was just 1:33:29.520 --> 1:33:33.960 like yeah, put her the like voodoo practitioner in a 1:33:34.000 --> 1:33:36.000 certain outfit and call it a day, right, Like there's 1:33:36.040 --> 1:33:37.880 that scene where she's got her face painted white, Like 1:33:38.240 --> 1:33:39.800 I think she was like, I want to have some 1:33:40.320 --> 1:33:42.960 clear visual markers so that people are like, yep, this 1:33:43.040 --> 1:33:44.800 is voodoo happening. I don't know that. I don't know 1:33:44.840 --> 1:33:46.439 that I would say that she went too deep into it, 1:33:46.479 --> 1:33:49.679 that's my read. Yeah, I would say at the very least, 1:33:49.880 --> 1:33:53.040 there are some things that the movie manages to avoid 1:33:53.240 --> 1:33:57.200 that we've seen play out in other movies where like 1:33:57.520 --> 1:34:02.519 Eve goes to Elzora and she's expecting in return a 1:34:02.800 --> 1:34:08.040 voodoo doll, and Elzora is like, no, that's not a thing. 1:34:08.400 --> 1:34:12.160 I did another thing to try to kill your father, 1:34:12.280 --> 1:34:15.160 but not a doll, because like, the voodoo doll is 1:34:15.200 --> 1:34:18.360 not an actual thing in the real voodoo religion, or 1:34:18.360 --> 1:34:20.600 at least not the way that is the way we 1:34:20.640 --> 1:34:25.560 see voodoo dolls in Hollywood. That's not accurate. And I 1:34:25.600 --> 1:34:30.320 at least appreciate that the way that Samuel and Jackson's 1:34:30.400 --> 1:34:33.840 character dies is because he gets shot by a man 1:34:34.000 --> 1:34:38.439 who was pretty explicitly or implicitly told that his wife 1:34:38.760 --> 1:34:42.639 was cheating on him, and not because like voodoo killed him. 1:34:43.560 --> 1:34:46.000 So at least the movie avoids those types of things. 1:34:46.160 --> 1:34:49.160 But it's just that Eve thinks that that's what happened, 1:34:49.520 --> 1:34:53.080 like they're even Yeah, I was confused. I was like, 1:34:53.320 --> 1:34:57.200 for a second, I like almost got galaxy brain about 1:34:57.240 --> 1:35:01.160 it because I thought, you know, it's like, okay, maybe 1:35:01.479 --> 1:35:04.760 it's like because you know, like there's a lot of 1:35:04.880 --> 1:35:08.160 people who present as like, oh, you know, like I 1:35:08.200 --> 1:35:10.960 am a psychic, and they're actually not, and they're kind 1:35:10.960 --> 1:35:14.200 of just like being touristy. I was like, maybe that's 1:35:14.200 --> 1:35:16.160 what Elsora is supposed to be as kind of like 1:35:16.320 --> 1:35:19.200 because that's what Moselle says. It's like, Oh, she's just 1:35:19.240 --> 1:35:21.920 like a tourist, Like she comes to the market. You know, 1:35:22.040 --> 1:35:25.280 she's a side show attraction because we see that misrepresentation 1:35:25.880 --> 1:35:29.759 all the time, kind of at any large carnivalry event 1:35:30.520 --> 1:35:32.400 of like this fraud. But then we're kind of led 1:35:32.439 --> 1:35:35.880 to believe that she is not a fraud. But then 1:35:35.920 --> 1:35:38.000 also I guess that was the question I left the 1:35:38.000 --> 1:35:40.280 movie with him, like was she a fraud or not? 1:35:40.439 --> 1:35:42.640 Because there were certain elements of her that kind of 1:35:42.640 --> 1:35:45.040 reminded me of like that scene in The Wizard of 1:35:45.040 --> 1:35:47.960 Oz where the wizard is going through basket while her 1:35:48.000 --> 1:35:50.200 thing is closed. Like sometimes I was getting that by 1:35:50.320 --> 1:35:53.559 but then other times I was like, is she a fraud? 1:35:53.840 --> 1:35:56.920 Like I don't know. I don't know, because she gets 1:35:56.960 --> 1:35:59.639 it right with ros right, she's like wait, wait a while. 1:36:00.040 --> 1:36:02.160 But if she doesn't need to wait three years, does she, 1:36:02.360 --> 1:36:04.599 like she well, maybe it takes three years for them 1:36:04.640 --> 1:36:08.920 to like just fully recover or like heal from their grief. 1:36:10.280 --> 1:36:13.400 It's like it's clear to us that Moselle and Eve's like, 1:36:14.600 --> 1:36:17.400 I don't even know, Like their ability to see the 1:36:17.600 --> 1:36:20.759 future is authentic, and that is like in text true, 1:36:21.080 --> 1:36:23.880 But I still was not clear on whether el Zora 1:36:24.200 --> 1:36:28.320 was legit or not. I wasn't sure. Let's also keep 1:36:28.320 --> 1:36:31.800 in mind that Elzora charges even twenty dollars to kill 1:36:31.840 --> 1:36:39.479 a man. That's I mean, come on, sixties money. I 1:36:39.520 --> 1:36:42.000 actually looked it up the the inflation it will be 1:36:42.120 --> 1:36:46.840 two sixteen dollars they're about today to kill a man. 1:36:47.400 --> 1:36:51.280 She grifted a child, Like yeah, what are the what 1:36:51.360 --> 1:36:54.080 are the ethics of her like accepting money from a 1:36:54.200 --> 1:36:56.479 literal child to kill a man? Like I just have 1:36:56.520 --> 1:37:00.439 a lot of time, It's it's murky, I would think. Yeah, 1:37:00.560 --> 1:37:02.360 I'd be curious of like listeners who have seen this 1:37:02.360 --> 1:37:04.240 movie what your impression was, because by the end I 1:37:04.280 --> 1:37:07.640 sort of felt like she's the Wizard of Us, like 1:37:07.760 --> 1:37:12.519 she only because the people who can genuinely see into 1:37:12.560 --> 1:37:15.439 the future to some extent, we are like told visually 1:37:15.520 --> 1:37:18.160 explicitly that that is true, and you don't ever get 1:37:18.160 --> 1:37:22.519 that for Elzaura. So I wasn't sure. I wasn't sure. 1:37:22.560 --> 1:37:25.240 I know that definitely, the presentation of voodoo is like 1:37:25.960 --> 1:37:28.799 off in this movie. It's definitely not like a faithful, 1:37:29.400 --> 1:37:31.800 you know thing. But but I wasn't sure if like 1:37:31.840 --> 1:37:34.120 we were supposed to go through this being like, oh, 1:37:34.200 --> 1:37:37.560 you know, Elzora is kind of like doing this touristy 1:37:37.720 --> 1:37:42.760 act that Eve believes because she's a kid. You know, 1:37:44.600 --> 1:37:49.040 she gave this woman two hundred dollars. Oh my god. Stressful. 1:37:50.560 --> 1:37:53.400 But yeah, I'm I'm curious to hear from any listeners 1:37:53.520 --> 1:37:58.480 who have a more in depth understanding of actual voodoo practices, 1:37:59.200 --> 1:38:04.720 just how you feel about this movie's depiction of voodoo. Yeah, Um, 1:38:04.800 --> 1:38:10.519 does anyone have any other thoughts on the movie? I 1:38:10.600 --> 1:38:12.080 wanted to I had, I had a few things. I 1:38:12.080 --> 1:38:15.200 wanted to just kind of shout out the team behind 1:38:15.240 --> 1:38:18.439 this movie that we do not. I mean, it goes 1:38:18.479 --> 1:38:21.400 without saying that black women writing and directing their own 1:38:21.439 --> 1:38:25.760 movies is such a huge I mean, especially just was 1:38:25.880 --> 1:38:28.720 not happening very much. And so in terms of like 1:38:28.800 --> 1:38:31.719 the background of this movie, you will not be surprised. 1:38:31.720 --> 1:38:34.800 It's like the I feel like, and this is true 1:38:34.800 --> 1:38:37.639 with female directors kind of generally you get a lot 1:38:37.720 --> 1:38:41.280 of that actor to director pipeline because Casey Lemons was 1:38:41.320 --> 1:38:44.000 already an established director and I feel like you an 1:38:44.040 --> 1:38:47.280 established actor or sorry, an established actor. Yeah, and then 1:38:47.320 --> 1:38:49.639 she doesn't direct her first movie to her late thirties, 1:38:49.920 --> 1:38:52.040 and I can think of like five women off the 1:38:52.080 --> 1:38:56.200 top of my head who that's true for right now. Um, 1:38:56.280 --> 1:38:58.840 and how like that is kind of it seems like 1:38:58.880 --> 1:39:01.000 the most not to say, I mean, there's plenty of 1:39:01.040 --> 1:39:03.479 female directors who that is not the case for, but 1:39:03.520 --> 1:39:08.880 it seems like the most efficient current pipeline for female directors. 1:39:09.320 --> 1:39:12.240 And that's where Casey Lemons comes from. And then she 1:39:12.360 --> 1:39:14.880 makes like animazing. But she was like an established actor 1:39:15.439 --> 1:39:19.120 who started writing and directing because she was dissatisfied with 1:39:19.160 --> 1:39:21.479 the roles she was getting as an actor, these like 1:39:21.760 --> 1:39:25.000 very you know, like oh, I'm the black best friend 1:39:25.200 --> 1:39:27.960 or I'm just like this kind of like sidelined character. 1:39:28.600 --> 1:39:32.320 And so she just took it upon herself to start 1:39:32.360 --> 1:39:36.800 writing stories from her own perspective, which is amazing. And 1:39:37.000 --> 1:39:39.960 I also every time I see the actor to director pipeline, 1:39:40.000 --> 1:39:42.680 I'm like, why can't they Why can't we just be directors? 1:39:43.200 --> 1:39:45.800 Why is that pipeline not available? That said, I'm very 1:39:45.840 --> 1:39:49.559 glad that Kasey Lemons was able to create all these 1:39:49.640 --> 1:39:53.639 like amazing media roles that she wasn't able to play originally. 1:39:53.720 --> 1:39:58.799 We also have a few different kind of rarities behind 1:39:58.800 --> 1:40:01.080 the scenes, which I feel like sometimes we get great 1:40:01.080 --> 1:40:03.240 representation in front of the camera and then behind it's 1:40:03.280 --> 1:40:07.640 like more white guys. Uh this. We have a a 1:40:07.720 --> 1:40:13.040 female cinematographer, Amy Vincent, who you have almost certainly seen 1:40:13.080 --> 1:40:15.639 a lot of her work. She did two of my 1:40:15.760 --> 1:40:18.840 favorite youth movies. She also did Jawbreaker and the Lemony 1:40:18.880 --> 1:40:23.479 Snaket movie. But she's a love job breaker. It's so good. 1:40:23.920 --> 1:40:26.760 We've got to cover Jawbreaker. Sometimes she's done. She's done. 1:40:27.160 --> 1:40:29.200 She's done a lot. More like she's like I think, 1:40:29.240 --> 1:40:34.360 one of kind of the iconic female cinematographers. Um, she's 1:40:34.360 --> 1:40:37.160 done a whole lot. She did I Hurt Huckabees if 1:40:37.280 --> 1:40:40.840 you care, I guess, uh, and Oh my God, and 1:40:40.960 --> 1:40:43.760 that horrible Seth McFarland movie, A Million Ways to Die 1:40:43.760 --> 1:40:47.479 in the West, So you know, she has a wide 1:40:47.600 --> 1:40:51.920 variety of things she's done. Um. We also have a 1:40:51.960 --> 1:40:55.479 black female editor, which is like I feel like there's 1:40:56.360 --> 1:40:59.759 of all the positions in Hollywood, they are overwhelmingly white 1:41:00.040 --> 1:41:04.479 as editor like may in fact take the cake. And yeah, 1:41:04.520 --> 1:41:06.720 there's a black female editor of this movie. Her name 1:41:06.800 --> 1:41:10.439 is Tara Lynn shop Share. I hope I'm saying that right. Um, 1:41:10.479 --> 1:41:13.519 she also edited Love and Basketball when they see us 1:41:13.640 --> 1:41:16.080 Secret Life of Bees, and like, there's all these like 1:41:16.160 --> 1:41:19.400 amazing projects in I think one of the like most 1:41:19.439 --> 1:41:23.360 white male dominated areas of movie. Love and Basketball another 1:41:23.400 --> 1:41:27.479 black classic, right, yes, that is a classic. So she 1:41:27.600 --> 1:41:30.360 seems like she's just, you know, kind of an icon 1:41:30.479 --> 1:41:33.520 in that field. Just like a lot of great representation 1:41:33.640 --> 1:41:35.880 behind the camera as well, and like the t I mean, 1:41:35.960 --> 1:41:38.880 everything in this movie jels so well. The and also 1:41:38.920 --> 1:41:43.040 I didn't know Kasey Lemon's studied cinematography in college as well, 1:41:43.080 --> 1:41:45.519 so you have to imagine she's bringing some stuff to 1:41:45.560 --> 1:41:49.160 the cinematography too. And it's all You're like, Wow, more 1:41:49.160 --> 1:41:52.519 movies should be made like this. There's also, um, it's 1:41:52.520 --> 1:41:56.600 a man, but a black composer. Terrence Blanchard opposed the 1:41:56.640 --> 1:42:01.000 score Jazz Legend and he uh guide but he plays 1:42:01.040 --> 1:42:04.240 the trumph and then he won an Academy Award for 1:42:04.280 --> 1:42:06.400 Black Klansman a couple of years ago. Oh that's right, 1:42:06.439 --> 1:42:08.600 That's why I know that name. Yeah, he and and 1:42:08.640 --> 1:42:11.960 then I guess he and I. He and Casey Lemons 1:42:12.000 --> 1:42:17.000 also wrote an opera together, or they were supposed to, 1:42:17.000 --> 1:42:18.759 and then COVID hit and now they're going to release 1:42:18.800 --> 1:42:23.480 their opera later. Like I love. I love when collaborators 1:42:23.520 --> 1:42:25.200 like working together and then they do a bunch of 1:42:25.240 --> 1:42:28.240 like weird ship Like I'm like, yeah, sure, write an opera, 1:42:28.280 --> 1:42:32.280 why not like Casey Lemons opera. I guess you know, 1:42:32.600 --> 1:42:35.040 if it's safe to see, I would see it. Um. 1:42:35.200 --> 1:42:38.400 So I just I was. I really loved just how 1:42:38.800 --> 1:42:42.240 like how my representation there was behind the camera, definitely, 1:42:42.320 --> 1:42:46.240 especially in those like those are like three very major roles, 1:42:46.560 --> 1:42:48.080 you know, what is it they called like the top 1:42:48.200 --> 1:42:52.479 like this this top six title card whatever roles, and 1:42:52.520 --> 1:42:57.520 like they're almost always given to white men in Hollywood productions. 1:42:57.560 --> 1:43:02.759 So yeah, that was awesome And for nineteen I'm like, okay, 1:43:02.960 --> 1:43:06.759 pretty good. The other So shooting started on this movie 1:43:06.800 --> 1:43:12.240 and Casey Lemons was either pregnant, gregnant, um or she 1:43:12.320 --> 1:43:14.879 had just given birth to her first child. I couldn't 1:43:14.880 --> 1:43:18.200 really figure out exactly what the timeline was there, but 1:43:18.400 --> 1:43:21.280 I was like, that is cool, because like society has 1:43:21.320 --> 1:43:23.360 this image of women that if like you're a mother, 1:43:23.479 --> 1:43:26.519 you especially like a new mother, or if you're pregnant, 1:43:26.600 --> 1:43:29.519 you can't work, or if you're a working woman, you 1:43:29.600 --> 1:43:31.960 can't be a mother. So like she was just like, no, 1:43:32.120 --> 1:43:35.599 like I'm going to make this movie and I'm also 1:43:35.640 --> 1:43:38.640 a mother and two things can be true. Love that 1:43:38.720 --> 1:43:40.960 for her. I think you're so right that we have 1:43:41.080 --> 1:43:43.680 this misconception that I a woman has a baby, she 1:43:44.240 --> 1:43:45.960 may as well just like crawl into a grave and 1:43:46.040 --> 1:43:51.200 die for a few years. Yeah, that's I didn't know that. 1:43:51.200 --> 1:43:54.439 That's really cool. Um. Yeah, the last two production e 1:43:54.760 --> 1:43:58.720 Slash reception things are no, it's about men, but I 1:43:58.760 --> 1:44:01.400 thought that they were interesting. They I think, as is 1:44:01.439 --> 1:44:05.040 also very common in this case woman and particularly like 1:44:05.040 --> 1:44:08.040 a woman of color making her first movie. She needed 1:44:08.080 --> 1:44:10.320 a very powerful man to co sign on the project 1:44:10.360 --> 1:44:13.200 before it could be made. So this project was kind 1:44:13.200 --> 1:44:16.080 of like languishing the script. It existed for some time 1:44:16.080 --> 1:44:18.679 and it wasn't until Samuel L. Jackson was like, I'll 1:44:18.760 --> 1:44:22.080 star in the movie, okay, and then you could get made. 1:44:22.240 --> 1:44:25.120 So it's like, you know, it's it's definitely not ideal. 1:44:25.200 --> 1:44:27.639 That's something that needs to keep changing. But I do 1:44:27.880 --> 1:44:31.439 like to see powerful men using that power to like 1:44:31.840 --> 1:44:35.519 bring new talent into the folds. And so that was cool. 1:44:35.600 --> 1:44:38.519 This was also this is kind of neither here nor there. 1:44:38.600 --> 1:44:41.720 I just was like genuinely really surprised because we are 1:44:41.760 --> 1:44:46.200 always talking about Roger. Yeah, I was like, because we 1:44:46.280 --> 1:44:52.920 have been dragging Roger Ebert NonStop correctly for years, because 1:44:52.960 --> 1:44:57.000 he just like sucks. He generally has no idea what 1:44:57.120 --> 1:44:59.960 anyone like, any story that is not for him explode 1:45:00.000 --> 1:45:04.280 at lee. He's like confusing, hated it, negative stars, hated 1:45:04.320 --> 1:45:08.120 it for losers. But uh in in kind of a 1:45:08.760 --> 1:45:13.160 shocking he'll turn here. Roger Ebert named this movie hit 1:45:13.240 --> 1:45:17.800 the best film of Wow. That that is surprising to me. 1:45:18.000 --> 1:45:20.640 That is very surprising to me because he I have 1:45:20.720 --> 1:45:23.880 my own feelings about him that I find not surprising. Yeah, 1:45:24.040 --> 1:45:26.320 I did too. I was like, wow, Okay, at least 1:45:26.320 --> 1:45:30.479 he's a Cathy Lemon stand. I Like, it's not you know, 1:45:30.560 --> 1:45:33.960 it's something. It might have been Chas Ebert his wife's doing. 1:45:34.439 --> 1:45:38.320 That might have been chairs. She's like, give me this 1:45:38.360 --> 1:45:42.360 one thing. But I wonder if his sort of championing 1:45:42.400 --> 1:45:46.400 this movie led to another fact about this movie, which 1:45:46.439 --> 1:45:49.360 is that it was the highest grossing independent film of 1:45:49.479 --> 1:45:52.680 nine seven, So I wonder if he was like ringing endorsement, 1:45:53.000 --> 1:45:55.720 like encourage more people to go see it, because it 1:45:55.800 --> 1:45:59.080 had a four million dollar budget and it grossed fifteen 1:45:59.120 --> 1:46:02.080 million at the box office, which again doesn't feel it 1:46:02.120 --> 1:46:05.679 doesn't sound huge, but for an independent movie, fifty million 1:46:05.720 --> 1:46:10.040 dollars at the box office pretty significant. Seven money too, 1:46:10.080 --> 1:46:13.320 Like that's that, Yeah, that's big. I do wonder, Yeah, 1:46:13.360 --> 1:46:16.920 I do, because I feel like, for all of its 1:46:16.960 --> 1:46:19.880 issues that we have talked about at length, at this point, 1:46:20.080 --> 1:46:23.519 I am surprised that this movie is not like that 1:46:23.760 --> 1:46:26.719 not everybody knows about it. It seems like a real 1:46:26.920 --> 1:46:30.559 like classic of its genre, and it does so much 1:46:30.600 --> 1:46:32.759 that not many movies are doing. And so I guess 1:46:33.439 --> 1:46:35.600 I was glad that Ebert pushed it. It just I 1:46:35.640 --> 1:46:39.200 don't know. Ultimately, I'm like, I just wish more people 1:46:39.320 --> 1:46:43.719 knew about this movie. I wish it was like more taught. 1:46:43.840 --> 1:46:47.320 I wish it was more discussed, like and I wish that. 1:46:47.439 --> 1:46:49.920 I think that honestly, it's the sort of thing where 1:46:49.960 --> 1:46:53.960 at the time had the fucking and I know that 1:46:54.000 --> 1:46:56.680 we're always like the Golden Globes are for losers, right, 1:46:56.720 --> 1:47:00.919 oscars are for losers? Like it almost call without saying, 1:47:01.400 --> 1:47:05.360 but being recognized in some way by those institutions does 1:47:05.400 --> 1:47:08.080 sort of, I feel like, have an effect on solidifying 1:47:08.760 --> 1:47:13.400 certain movies as movies worth remembering and movies worth recognizing. 1:47:13.400 --> 1:47:16.440 And I just wish that this movie had been recognized 1:47:16.439 --> 1:47:20.200 more by those institutions. And I wonder if if they had, like, 1:47:20.920 --> 1:47:22.680 would it be a movie that we would just be 1:47:22.760 --> 1:47:25.800 hearing more about now? Like, Yeah, I wish I'd seen 1:47:25.840 --> 1:47:28.280 this movie sooner. For for all of its flaws, I 1:47:28.600 --> 1:47:33.599 really it's doing so much that movies of its time 1:47:33.680 --> 1:47:36.840 we're not attempting. Well, if you'd grown up in my house, 1:47:36.880 --> 1:47:38.559 you would have had it on VHS and it would 1:47:38.560 --> 1:47:41.599 have been one of five movies like you a Little 1:47:41.640 --> 1:47:47.320 Cabinet that one could watch if they wanted the movie Cabinet. 1:47:47.439 --> 1:47:52.320 My mom had the fucking CBS Ron Perlman, Beauty and 1:47:52.320 --> 1:47:58.160 the Beast on VHS and talk about a classic, horny classic, 1:47:58.240 --> 1:48:01.880 Linda Hamilton's and Ron that we will not be covering 1:48:01.880 --> 1:48:04.240 it on the show, but boy have I seen a 1:48:04.280 --> 1:48:08.639 lot of it. Oh goodness, is is there anything else 1:48:08.680 --> 1:48:12.920 anyone wants to discuss I mean the episodes longer than 1:48:12.960 --> 1:48:17.599 the movie at this point, I don't Isn't that true 1:48:17.720 --> 1:48:21.880 of literally all of our episodes within the past two years. 1:48:22.320 --> 1:48:25.240 It's true. Speaking of which, my Chicken Run posters coming 1:48:25.280 --> 1:48:29.479 in the mail today, I'm very excited Ginger is on 1:48:29.479 --> 1:48:34.400 her way. Hell yeah, Uh, well, it probably comes as 1:48:34.439 --> 1:48:37.439 no surprise that this movie does pass the Bechdel test. 1:48:38.200 --> 1:48:40.800 Women are interacting. Women and girls are interacting in this 1:48:40.840 --> 1:48:43.760 movie with each other a lot, and the DuVernay test 1:48:43.800 --> 1:48:48.520 as well. Yes, indeed, Um, the female characters are talking 1:48:48.560 --> 1:48:51.639 a lot about men and a lot of scenes either 1:48:51.760 --> 1:48:55.439 like about Louis or about Mozelle's husbands. But there are 1:48:55.560 --> 1:49:00.000 still quite a few scenes that pass the Bechdel test. Yeah. 1:48:59.840 --> 1:49:03.400 I guess that brings us to our our nipple scale, 1:49:03.960 --> 1:49:12.680 where we examine the movie based on just intersectional feminism, 1:49:12.680 --> 1:49:15.240 and I think this movie is going to break my 1:49:15.320 --> 1:49:21.479 brain trying to assign it a nipple number. Um. I 1:49:21.520 --> 1:49:24.680 think I want to give it three or three and 1:49:24.720 --> 1:49:29.040 a half because, as we've discussed that, like, the information 1:49:29.120 --> 1:49:33.280 is there that allows for a pretty clear interpretation that 1:49:33.560 --> 1:49:37.000 Cecily is a survivor of abuse and that her father 1:49:37.240 --> 1:49:40.000 is an abuser, and I appreciate that this movie is 1:49:40.040 --> 1:49:43.160 trying to tackle this subject matter, and I think that 1:49:43.200 --> 1:49:47.240 the intent was to approach it responsibly. However, I do 1:49:47.560 --> 1:49:50.040 still feel that the movie ends in a way that 1:49:50.120 --> 1:49:55.160 allows room for interpretation and for a different reading, which 1:49:55.200 --> 1:49:57.439 again I think is a very dangerous thing to do 1:49:57.880 --> 1:50:02.960 in regards to child set abuse. That said, it's still 1:50:03.120 --> 1:50:08.680 an important piece of Black cinema and of cinema in general. Um, 1:50:08.840 --> 1:50:11.439 I don't know. Oh gosh, yeah, I guess three and 1:50:11.479 --> 1:50:18.559 a half and I'll kind of distribute them evenly to 1:50:19.120 --> 1:50:24.920 Casey Lemon's Journey, Smollett, Lynn Whitfield, Megan Good, Debbie Morgan, 1:50:25.080 --> 1:50:30.880 just just all the women in All Star. Yes, Yeah, 1:50:30.920 --> 1:50:36.600 so that's that I'm gonna go. I'm I'm tempted to 1:50:36.840 --> 1:50:38.960 I'm definitely doing it three and a half. I'm tempted 1:50:39.000 --> 1:50:42.160 to even go for a four. But I'm going to go, 1:50:42.200 --> 1:50:43.800 I think with a three and a half because I 1:50:43.840 --> 1:50:47.800 do agree that for its time is I mean, it's 1:50:48.600 --> 1:50:52.080 it's so hard, right because I think that in terms 1:50:52.080 --> 1:50:56.679 of talking about child sex abuse on screen, I feel 1:50:56.680 --> 1:51:00.000 like I can say pretty confidently that this movie does more, 1:51:00.000 --> 1:51:02.920 more than anyone was even attempting to do it the 1:51:02.960 --> 1:51:06.200 same at this time while also making a lot of 1:51:06.240 --> 1:51:09.599 this same fuck ups that movies at this time we're 1:51:09.640 --> 1:51:13.000 doing it. Is like, as far as I concert, like 1:51:13.439 --> 1:51:15.439 never going to be worth the risk to put a 1:51:15.520 --> 1:51:20.080 child performer in a position like that. I I feel 1:51:20.080 --> 1:51:24.719 a little differently about the ambiguity because I do feel 1:51:24.760 --> 1:51:28.599 like she gave us all the clues, Mr Policeman, and 1:51:28.680 --> 1:51:32.160 so I don't want to necessarily punish the movie for 1:51:32.240 --> 1:51:34.800 that because I do feel like Casey Lemons does give 1:51:34.880 --> 1:51:36.960 us all the information. I do just wish that like 1:51:37.720 --> 1:51:39.439 I guess we didn't even talk about this, But the 1:51:39.880 --> 1:51:43.599 line that I think was cross like crossed the line 1:51:43.680 --> 1:51:48.639 for me was when Moselle told Eve like your dad 1:51:48.680 --> 1:51:51.559 says he wishes he had gotten that last dance. That 1:51:51.720 --> 1:51:54.320 for me kind of crossed the line of like, so 1:51:54.360 --> 1:51:58.000 we're gaslighting beyond the grave? Is like for real? Like 1:51:58.240 --> 1:52:01.360 is that necessary? And so I do think that the 1:52:01.400 --> 1:52:06.200 movie gives Samuel L. Jackson's character more than he deserves 1:52:06.320 --> 1:52:09.800 in terms of ambiguity. I am, I don't know, I 1:52:09.880 --> 1:52:13.720 just for sure the conversation was not sophisticated enough in 1:52:13.800 --> 1:52:17.479 the general public then or now clearly for people to 1:52:17.800 --> 1:52:20.840 inherently believe sicily. I think if we were living in 1:52:20.880 --> 1:52:25.799 this fantasy world where we were as a society inclined 1:52:25.880 --> 1:52:29.600 to believe survivors, that a lot of the choices in 1:52:29.640 --> 1:52:31.760 this movie wouldn't bother me as much. And so I 1:52:31.760 --> 1:52:34.880 am like, I'm it's kind of confusing because I don't 1:52:34.880 --> 1:52:39.800 want to punish Casey Lemons or the art for society 1:52:39.880 --> 1:52:41.800 not being where it needs to be on this issue, 1:52:41.880 --> 1:52:43.840 but it isn't, and so I just don't really know. 1:52:44.200 --> 1:52:48.360 I do know that I really dislike the fact that 1:52:48.400 --> 1:52:50.840 the scene was filmed in the medium that it was 1:52:51.640 --> 1:52:54.800 everything else, I'm kind of like, I don't know, Uh, 1:52:54.960 --> 1:52:59.559 stories about generational trauma, I think are are really rarely 1:52:59.640 --> 1:53:03.080 done well and thoughtfully, and this movie kind of takes 1:53:03.120 --> 1:53:08.040 a lot of boxes in terms of like showing you, 1:53:08.040 --> 1:53:11.040 you know, kind of the effects of generational trauma and 1:53:11.280 --> 1:53:14.439 showing you like, yes, ros is wrong a lot of 1:53:14.439 --> 1:53:18.160 the time, while also showing her empathy in other moments 1:53:18.160 --> 1:53:21.200 in a way that felt really like, I mean, you 1:53:21.240 --> 1:53:23.920 can't ask for like a harder task as a writer 1:53:24.320 --> 1:53:27.240 than to show all of this stuff. I don't know. 1:53:27.280 --> 1:53:31.120 I mean, I've like I am genuinely, I'm just glad 1:53:31.160 --> 1:53:34.280 that Casey Lemons did it, and like for all of 1:53:34.320 --> 1:53:37.560 its failures, I feel like it's a triumph that it 1:53:37.640 --> 1:53:39.720 happened and that it was released and that it had 1:53:39.840 --> 1:53:43.080 this cultural impact, and I don't want to punish it 1:53:43.160 --> 1:53:46.519 for society being worthless. I don't know, I don't know. 1:53:46.600 --> 1:53:48.800 I guess I'm gonna go three and a half and 1:53:48.840 --> 1:53:54.040 I don't know how to feel h and broken. I'm 1:53:54.080 --> 1:53:56.920 giving all of my nipples to Debbie Morgan because she 1:53:57.240 --> 1:54:01.439 really she really did it with this one. Yeah, Bridge, 1:54:01.520 --> 1:54:03.880 what about you? I think I would put this. It's 1:54:03.880 --> 1:54:06.559 a tough call for me. I would say between three 1:54:06.560 --> 1:54:11.040 point five and four nipples. I say for the the heavy, 1:54:11.160 --> 1:54:14.639 you know, female lead talent both on camera and behind 1:54:14.680 --> 1:54:17.880 the camera, I think it's I can't go lower. Um. 1:54:17.920 --> 1:54:19.120 I don't know that I can give it a solid 1:54:19.160 --> 1:54:22.439 for but I'm some I'm somewhere in there. Sure cool, Yeah, 1:54:22.560 --> 1:54:27.200 I totally agree. Well, thank you so much for joining us. 1:54:27.800 --> 1:54:31.080 What a what a treat it's been, What what a 1:54:31.200 --> 1:54:34.640 memory this will be for all of us. Thank you 1:54:34.720 --> 1:54:37.640 for thank you for bringing us this movie truly. I'm like, 1:54:37.720 --> 1:54:40.160 I'm so happy that we got to talk about it. Yeah, 1:54:40.240 --> 1:54:42.240 it's it's I'm happy that this was on the agenda 1:54:42.280 --> 1:54:45.080 because I it's nice to have a reason to rewatch it. 1:54:45.280 --> 1:54:48.000 And it's just nice to have a throwback of kind 1:54:48.000 --> 1:54:51.080 of a time capsule, capsule of how we were dealing 1:54:51.120 --> 1:54:54.360 with representing black girlhood, black womanhood on screen. It's it's 1:54:54.440 --> 1:54:56.560 nice to look back to see kind of where we 1:54:56.560 --> 1:54:58.200 were at then and where we've come now. So I 1:54:58.240 --> 1:55:04.880 appreciate having the the reason to rewatch totally. Yeah, and 1:55:05.000 --> 1:55:09.480 UM tell us where people can check out your stuff, 1:55:09.560 --> 1:55:13.880 listen to your podcast, follow you on social media, etcetera. Well, 1:55:13.880 --> 1:55:16.320 thank you for asking. So if you want to hear 1:55:16.400 --> 1:55:18.800 more from me, please please check out my podcast. There 1:55:18.800 --> 1:55:21.520 are No Girls on the Internet on I Heart Radio. Um. 1:55:21.680 --> 1:55:24.360 Right now, we're doing this great mini series all about 1:55:24.360 --> 1:55:30.240 disinformation called Disinformed and really elevating some narratives around marginalized people, 1:55:30.320 --> 1:55:33.440 women of color, women, how we've all played a role 1:55:33.520 --> 1:55:36.640 showing up online and how we have gotten to this 1:55:36.760 --> 1:55:39.400 very kind of particular social and political moment that we 1:55:39.440 --> 1:55:42.320 find ourselves in. So if you're interested in that, please 1:55:42.360 --> 1:55:44.480 check it. Out. It's called They're No Girls on the Internet. 1:55:44.680 --> 1:55:47.840 And you can follow me on Instagram at Bridget Murray 1:55:47.840 --> 1:55:50.840 in d C or on Twitter at Bridget Murray. Yeah, 1:55:51.760 --> 1:55:55.680 and Bridget truly come back anytime. Oh it's been a pleasure. 1:55:55.880 --> 1:55:57.520 I'll be back y'all. You'll you'll will not be able 1:55:57.560 --> 1:56:03.840 to get rid of me. Ah wow. Well, you can 1:56:03.920 --> 1:56:07.600 check us out on Twitter and Instagram at Bechtel Cast. 1:56:07.800 --> 1:56:11.920 You can subscribe to our Patreon a k a. Matreon. 1:56:12.080 --> 1:56:14.680 Speaking of Chicken Run, I believe that episode will have 1:56:15.200 --> 1:56:21.200 recently dropped, among many others, and that's specialist classic Chicken Round. 1:56:21.520 --> 1:56:25.240 My goodness. Um, that's a patreon dot com slash petel Cast. 1:56:25.320 --> 1:56:27.800 It's five dollars a month and you get two bonus 1:56:27.840 --> 1:56:32.840 episodes plus access to the back catalog. Oh and you 1:56:32.880 --> 1:56:36.320 can also get T shirts I always miss my cue here. Uh. 1:56:36.400 --> 1:56:38.360 You can also get t shirts at t public dot 1:56:38.360 --> 1:56:43.200 com slash v Bechtel Cast. We have masks amongst other wares, 1:56:43.520 --> 1:56:46.760 so um, you know, log on in, see what you 1:56:46.880 --> 1:56:56.120 like and until next time. Just a memory now and 1:56:56.200 --> 1:57:01.160 it's it's it's imprinted indelibly on your brain through the 1:57:01.560 --> 1:57:04.640 m P three file. But bye a.