1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: On the bel Cast, the questions asked if movies have 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, 3 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zef in best 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Memory is a 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: selection of images, some elusive others imprinted indelibly on the brain. Hello, 6 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante. 7 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: My name's jam Lovedes. Caitlin, I thought you werena say 8 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: this summer I killed my podcast co host. I was 9 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: thirty four years old. Oh, that would have been okay, 10 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: just to get things after a really sinister begins that 11 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: you know what, we close enough. Honestly, I would watch 12 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 1: that movie even if even if I had to die 13 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: at the end. You know, I've in fact, I might 14 00:00:55,880 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: welcome it. Hi, Jamie us assured that I will never 15 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: kill you. But what if you you know, what if 16 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: in your mind you've set off a chain of events 17 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: that leads to like someone else, Like what if you 18 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: say something to someone and then it gets around to 19 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: so and so, and then Jack O'Brien kills and then 20 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,040 Speaker 1: you're like, it's my fault. But but Jack O'Brien pulled 21 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: the trigger, so sure I would definitely feel responsible and 22 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 1: guilty about it, but I also don't. I hope that 23 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: I never, like accidentally or on purpose, do anything that 24 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: might like trigger a chain of events that leads to 25 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: your murder. Thank you so much. Ultimately, I do think 26 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: it would be funny if Jacob Bryan murdered me just 27 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: because I'm like, I just don't see it happening, but um, 28 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: it would be. It would be a wild twist in Sherwood. 29 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: That conversation. Um did not entirely pass the back to 30 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: the I think maybe areas of it did. I should 31 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: have said, I should have jacko Brian, you should have said, 32 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: and then it would have been completely above board. Yeah. 33 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: This is the Bechtel Cast. This Caitlin and My podcast 34 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: where we talk about your favorite movies and your least 35 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: favorite movies from an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel 36 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: Test as a jumping off point, which is a media 37 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel. There are different 38 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: variations of the test. Ours is that two people from 39 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: of any marginalized gender have to have names, they have 40 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: to speak to each other and their conversation has to 41 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: be about something other than a man for at least 42 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: a two line exchange of dialogue. Not many movies can 43 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: do it, but I think you're in for a treat today. Yes, 44 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: you are, so with that, I say we introduce our 45 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: guests and get the ball rolling. She is the host 46 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: of the podcast There Are No Girls on the Internet, 47 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: as well as the miniseries Disinformed. It's Bridget Todd. Hi. Hello, 48 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: I'm so excited to be here. Being on this podcast 49 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:17,119 Speaker 1: has been a little bit of a dream of mine, 50 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 1: so I'm so happy that it's finally a reality. The 51 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: time is here. We've been trained to make it happen 52 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: for so long, and the stars are finally aligned. And Jamie, 53 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: if Jack O'Brien happens to kill you, I'll always happily 54 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: take your place. I perfect. See there's a greater plot. 55 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: Oh that's you know what. Honestly, in the event of 56 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: my untimely death, please do not avenge me and instead 57 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: just begin to host the Baxtelcast. You can bequeath it 58 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: to me. That's the right word. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 59 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: I'll start my will tonight. And just just to make 60 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: sure everything is all set, yeah, is illegal? Exactly exactly? 61 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: Is that? Is that something that would be really funny 62 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: if you could not Funny is not the word, but interesting, 63 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: if you could leave your job to another person. Maybe 64 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: someone's done that. Someone has to have done that, right, 65 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: I tried to. I feel like that's just like rich people, 66 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: dynasties could do that. But it would be funny if 67 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: you're like, I'm a second grade teacher at the Kennedy 68 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: School and I leave my job to my twelve year 69 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: old son, like wild, Well, there's sounds like there's a 70 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: movie plot there. Exactly. Okay, So Bridget, we're so excited 71 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 1: to have you here. Thank you for being here. Tell 72 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: us what your history, your relationship with today's movie, which 73 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: we forgot to say is eaves By. You tell us 74 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: all about it. Yeah, so it's a movie. So I 75 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: had to really like think hard about my fationship with 76 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: this movie. I realized that my parents had it on VHS, 77 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: and so I think I watched it when I when 78 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: it first came out, I was like a child because 79 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: my parents just had it and it was one of 80 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: those movies. My parents didn't have a lot of movies 81 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: on VHS, so it was like one of those movies 82 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: that I had seen a couple of times just by 83 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: virtue of my parents having it. Another another one of 84 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: those movies would be Nell. You know those movies were like, Oh, 85 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 1: my parents randomly just had this on VHS for some reason. 86 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: And I remember distinctly my brother, who was a bit older, 87 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: being like, oh, I tried to watch that movie, and 88 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: nothing much happens in it, and so really thinking like, oh, 89 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: it's a movie that's like not good or it's boring. Really, 90 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: just based on this offhand comment my brother made when 91 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,159 Speaker 1: I was a child, that's the best. And I could 92 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: also I could definitely see how a child watching this 93 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: movie would think that nothing really happens in it. Yeah, 94 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 1: a lot of it. As a kid, I think most 95 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: of the plot and subtexts went right over my head. 96 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 1: I didn't like, I could not have even though I've 97 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:00,919 Speaker 1: seen I had seen it, most to the major plot 98 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: points I could not have articulated. And also, something I 99 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 1: have to say is that this is a bit embarrassing. 100 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,119 Speaker 1: But when I was young, I went through a phase 101 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 1: where I was doing some like child acting and like 102 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: child modeling and child pageantry. And I don't know if 103 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: y'all know this. But the main character Eve, the titular character, 104 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: Journey Smillett, she was I guess she was a bit 105 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: younger than me, but like our era of doing that 106 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: stuff over lapped, and so I once went to an 107 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 1: audition that she was also auditioning for. But she was 108 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: like the girl like if you like she was on 109 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: a full House, she was in um that movie with 110 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: Robin Williams Jack like she was. She was like a 111 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: certain kind of young girl in in like a window 112 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: of the nineties. WHOA, that's that. You've had interactions with 113 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: Journey at like, I mean, I guess there's really no 114 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: The great thing about Journey Smillett is there's no such 115 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: thing as peak Journey small She's had so many phases 116 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 1: of her career that you could argue right now like 117 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: Birds of Prey, Journey smaller is peaked Journey smaller. You 118 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: just she's been. It's so where I feel like she 119 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: like isn't brought up a lot as like an iconic 120 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: child actor, which is strange because she has been so 121 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: consistently really good, yeah, and very recognizable. Um And it's 122 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: been fun to see her, like her work on Lovecraft Country, 123 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: like It's been interesting to see her have this staying power. 124 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: She is like unbelievable in this movie, like good Lord, 125 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: so good a child actor. I can get behind Jamie. 126 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: What what's your relationship? I am ashamed to say. I 127 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: only recently learned that this movie, uh existed. I knew 128 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: about the writer, director, Kasi Lemon's, like I had seen 129 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: a lot of her later work and I like recognized 130 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: her from her acting days, but I hadn't heard that 131 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: much about this movie until I was working on Lolita 132 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: podcast plug a couple of months ago and I was 133 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: looking up like kind of iconic movies that addressed child 134 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: sex abuse in one way or another, and eaves By 135 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: You popped up and I was like, oh, we've gotten 136 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: requests for this, and kind of like I learned about 137 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: the movie from there, so I I don't know. I 138 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: it was strange too, because it's like this movie came 139 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: out in nineties seven and appears to have been snubbed 140 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: for all of the major like most major awards, which 141 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: is really frustrating, But it was like a popular movie 142 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: at the time. Like I asked my mom if she 143 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: had seen it, She's like, oh, yeah, I saw it 144 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 1: like a lot of people saw that movie, and I 145 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: was like, why don't I ever hear about it? I 146 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: don't know, it was just kind of I'm I'm like 147 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: bummed out and like surprised that I didn't know about 148 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: it until recently. But I, holy ship, there's so much 149 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: to talk about with this movie. I'm really excited to 150 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: talk about it. The fact that this is her first 151 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: movie is like, yeah, who, like the bar is so high, 152 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: it's so so good for sure, Kitl. What's your history 153 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: with this movie? Um, it was on my radar for 154 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: a while, but I hadn't seen it until we started 155 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: prepping for this episode, And yeah, it's I did not 156 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: know how challenging of a movie it was going to be. 157 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 1: And I'm very like, I'm nervous to talk about it. It 158 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: It just like deals with some very challenging subject matter 159 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh no, I'm gonna funk this up. 160 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 1: But um, yeah, I'm excited to talk about it. I'm 161 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: nervous to talk about it. There's a lot to unpack 162 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: and yeah, yeah, that's that's pretty much it. Yeah, yeah, 163 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: I was really looking forward to One of the reasons 164 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: why I'm looking forward to our conversation is because when 165 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: I was watching it, I kept saying, like I forgot that, 166 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: you know, Um, I guess we'll get into it. But 167 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: I was really excited to hear Jamie since of your 168 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 1: work on the Lada podcast about some of the themes 169 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: in the film, like there I think I must have 170 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: just like blocked out that is a plot device in 171 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: eves by you when I saw, or I guess because 172 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: I saw when I was young. I think it just 173 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: like went over my head. Um, But yeah, I was like, oh, 174 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: I bet Jamie's got some interesting inside from doing so 175 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,439 Speaker 1: much research for the Lida Body. Yeah, there's there's a lot. 176 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,079 Speaker 1: I'm I'm excited isn't the word. But I think it 177 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: will be like an interesting conversation for all of us 178 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: to to talk about because I thought that, like, I mean, 179 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:37,839 Speaker 1: there are so many movies that hand handle it so 180 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: like extremely poorly. And I also can imagine like if 181 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: I had seen this movie when I was too young, 182 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have I don't know, like the way it's 183 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: presented would have been confusing to me. But I like, 184 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: I think generally like it's done like really really thoughtfully 185 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: and like in a way that I I don't know Yeah, 186 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: that I don't really see you very much, so I'm 187 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: excited to talk about it. Yeah, should I do the 188 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: recap and we'll go from there. Let's do it, Okay, 189 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: So this would be I think a good time. Just 190 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: for a trigger warning for child sexual abuse and incest. Um. 191 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: So the movie opens with some voiceover from the titular 192 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: character Eve as an adult. She's talking about memories and 193 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: she says that line that we referenced in the beginning 194 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: of the episode that she killed her father when she 195 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,439 Speaker 1: was ten years old. Um. We are in a place 196 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: called Eve's Bayou, which is a small creole community in 197 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:42,199 Speaker 1: Louisiana in the nineteen sixties. We cut to the Batiste 198 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: family throwing a decadent party and we meet a ten 199 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: year old girl, Eve that's Journey Smallett. Her father is 200 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: a respected doctor that's Samuel L. Jackson. Her mother roz 201 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 1: is Lynn Whitfield. She's the prettiest woman in town. And 202 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: she also has a younger brother, Poe, played by Jake Smollett. 203 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: And you can tell that they're related so much. A 204 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: light like poor Megan Good. These two kids are so related. Also, 205 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: I didn't realize that this was young Megan Good, and 206 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: I didn't know that Megan Good was a child actor. 207 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: I was. I'm a fan of adult Megan Good. Didn't 208 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: know she's been at this for so long, because yes she. 209 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: Megan Good plays Eve's older sister, Cecily, who had has 210 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: just turned fourteen. We also meet Eve's grandmother and her aunt, Moselle, 211 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: played by Debbie Morgan. So at this party, Eve gets 212 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: jealous because her dad always is dancing with her sister 213 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: Cecily and never with her, and this is also where 214 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: she catches her father having sex with another woman, Maddie 215 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: Moreau played by Lisa Nicole Parson. And later that night, 216 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: Eve tells her sister Cecily what she saw, but Cecily 217 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: doesn't believe her, and she kind of fabricates this more innocent, 218 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: alternate version of what you've must have seen. Yeah, the 219 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:21,319 Speaker 1: guess it's the the rapid succession of gas lighting. Uh 220 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: that happens to even the first hour of this. You're 221 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: just like Eve, right. And then later that night Eve 222 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: has a premonition that her aunt Moselle's husband Harry dies 223 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: and it comes true. Um. So, Eve has this kind 224 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: of ability of foresight, as does her Aunt Moselle, and 225 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: she works as a psychic counselor and in some cases 226 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: she incorporates voodoo into her practices. Meanwhile, Louis continues on 227 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: with his dalliances with different women around town. Flay Grant, 228 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: by the way, I'm just like it has eyes. What 229 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: are you doing? Like there's one scene when he takes 230 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: her on his like doctor house calls and like there's 231 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: a woman who's like in a nighty in bed, like 232 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: I need I need some healing, and he just like 233 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: closes the door on his daughters one dinner, She's like, 234 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: wink wink could go outside. I'm like she's like she's 235 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: ten not oh right. Yeah, So that's his m o 236 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: and Eve's mother, Roz is either growing suspicious of this 237 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: or perhaps already fully aware, not like she knows and then, 238 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: which Eve also starts to figure out, is happening on 239 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: a pretty regular basis. So one day Roz and Aunt 240 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: Moselle stopped by a market where a woman named Elzora 241 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: played by Diane Carroll is giving fortunes and Roz gets 242 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: her fortun been told and Alzura says, you're in pain, 243 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: but you should just kind of stay quiet and wait. 244 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: Sometimes a soldier falls on his own sword, and in 245 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: three years you'll be happy again. Look to your children, 246 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: Look to your children. And this is like very ominous 247 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: and Ras is kind of freaking out about it. And 248 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: then Moselle has a premonition that a child gets hit 249 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: by a train, and Ras is terrified because she thinks 250 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: it might be it'll be one of her children, so 251 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: she coops them up in the house for several weeks. Well, also, 252 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: you missed the part where el Zora is so mean 253 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: to Moselle. It's like a psychic on psychic, like right 254 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: roast battle. I was like, oh my god. She's like like, 255 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: I don't need no catbone to tell you that you're 256 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: the black widow and any man who lays with you 257 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: is gonna die. And she the scene is actually upsetting 258 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: because she's like you old witch. And she in the jar. 259 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: This woman has been like cutting her money and she 260 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: throws it and it breaks. I gotta say, I probably 261 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: if I met a creepy old voodoo lady, I probably 262 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: would like not be so rude to her. I probably wouldn't. 263 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: I don't know, I would like. I was a little 264 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: concerned that she was being so openly hostile to this 265 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: woman who seemed so scary. Yeah, it's it's it's fun 266 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: because there's um there's a number of actors in this movie, 267 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: mostly female actors, who had really established themselves in soap operas, 268 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: and it seems like that they're like, oh, these are 269 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: two soap opera like legends, being like I'm not cursed 270 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: and like throwing a you know, shattering glass. I love 271 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: the soap opera act like you just there's so many 272 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: like amazing actors who started in soaps, but when they 273 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: get to like go back to their roots, it's exciting. 274 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: I'm so glad you brought that up because I mean, 275 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: Diane Carroll is an icon from Dynasty. Like, I don't 276 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: know if you'll watch Dynasty. I was definitely like young 277 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: watching it when my grandma was rewatching it. But like 278 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,959 Speaker 1: her role on the old Dynasty's where she would always 279 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: you know that that expression like oh, I have the 280 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,479 Speaker 1: receipts that comes from her. She originated that. There's an 281 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 1: amazing scene from an old Dynasty episode where it's like 282 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: her and she's wearing a her and she's like, I 283 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 1: have the receipts and she's like throwing them, uh honestly 284 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 1: shout out to a fucking icon legend, like so happy 285 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: that she's in this movie. And I think that she 286 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 1: does pump up the drama, the soapy drama in an 287 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 1: amazing way. It's so the way that like when she 288 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 1: like does the like the ha ha, You're like, oh 289 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,640 Speaker 1: my god, that is like I had to go. I 290 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 1: forgot that she was on Dynasty, and I was like, 291 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: oh my god, what was her because I remember watching reruns. 292 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: I was like, what was her character's name? It was 293 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: Dominique Devereaux. It was Dynasty. And then Debbie Morgan was 294 00:17:56,040 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 1: on All My Children for a really long time time 295 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: and she was the first black woman to win an 296 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: Emmy for soap opera. But yeah, they're the soap opera 297 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: energy in that scene was really just help exciting. Also, 298 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 1: Moselle screams you're a horrid, lying old witch, which almost 299 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: passes the Bechdel test exception said that the fortune was 300 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 1: about men and her husband's who will die. So yeah, 301 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: I skipped over that part because there's a whole subplot 302 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:34,199 Speaker 1: where like then Moselle like me a man and like, 303 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: but all of her husbands have died, and she like 304 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: explains all of this to Eve and then but this other, 305 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: this new man comes in and they fall in love 306 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: and she's afraid that he's going to die if they 307 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: get married. I just kind of I basically skip over 308 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: that in the recap, but that is a part of 309 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 1: the movie. I just was like, that was like one 310 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: of my favorite scenes in the movie. Yeah, the reenactment 311 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: of that, the part where she's telving up talking about 312 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: her um where Moselle is talking about her ex lovers 313 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: and it's like that that re enactment scene of her 314 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,640 Speaker 1: ex lover, her husband getting shot by her ex lover. 315 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: I was like, my heart was like racing. It is 316 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: like it's very sopy, but the way it's acted out, 317 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: You're like, oh, this is like a play. Like the 318 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: way that it's appearing in the reflection, I was like, oh, yes, 319 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 1: this is like this is a Broadway Award winning play. 320 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: Like yeah, it's so good. Yep um okay. So then 321 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 1: Moselle has her premonition about a child being killed, so 322 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: Roz coops all her children up in the house. Everyone 323 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: is getting very restless. Eve has an outburst, which is 324 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: also like I think that's my favorite scene where she 325 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,199 Speaker 1: like is just like screaming and she's like calling everyone 326 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: out on their ship and like giving everyone attitude. And 327 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 1: I was like, damn, that is again very good child 328 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: acting and I'm here for it. And then it was 329 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,959 Speaker 1: like I was like, oh my gosh, now she's going 330 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: to talk to Moselle and Mozelle is gonna believe her. 331 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: And then Moselle does believe her, but she's like, I 332 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 1: do believe you, but if you speak your truth, I 333 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 1: will kill you, Like I will, oh right. So then 334 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: one day Cecily leaves against her her mother's like explicit 335 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: instructions to stay home, and she goes to visit her dad, 336 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: and then she also goes to the beauty parlor and 337 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 1: her mother is really upset because Cecily disobeyed her and 338 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 1: she hits her. And then that night Ros and Louis 339 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 1: argue and then Moselle's premonition comes true. My child gets 340 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 1: hit by a bus, but it was not one of 341 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,880 Speaker 1: the Batiste children, so they're like so weird. They throw 342 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: a party when a kid is killed by a bus. 343 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: You're like, thank god it wasn't one of mine. I 344 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: do appreciate the grandma and that scene. She's not in 345 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: the movie very much, but she's just like, you, guys, 346 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: a child has died. And they're like, they're like, not 347 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: my problem. We can go out a child that they know. 348 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: They're like, oh, it's like so and So's boy, and 349 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 1: it's like you you know this family like it is 350 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: like it's funny, isn't the word? But I'm just like, wow, 351 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: it's it's just like there's not room in the movie 352 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: too mourn this fictional child. But it's like, oh, this 353 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: kid was probably friends with the Batiste kids, and they're 354 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: just like, who do they know the child by name? 355 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: They obviously I know him like in their community. Yeah, 356 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 1: they're I appreciated grandma advocating on behalf of fictional bus kid. Yes, truly, um, 357 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: but they're very excited that they can go outside again. 358 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 1: And then Eve goes to tell Cecily the news, but 359 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: Cecily is very upset and she has kind of shut down, 360 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: and it might be because she has just gotten her period, 361 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: it might be because ros had hit her not long ago, 362 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,719 Speaker 1: and she lashes out violently at Eve and then she 363 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: continues to like stay like just emotionally and mentally shut 364 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: down for a few weeks, and then she tells Eve 365 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 1: what's really going on, which is that a few weeks ago, 366 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: the night that her parents had a big fight was 367 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,199 Speaker 1: like the night of this big storm. Cecily went to 368 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: go comfort her father, but he abused her sexually and physically, 369 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 1: and upon hearing this, Eve once her father dead for 370 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: doing that to her sister. So Eve goes to el Zora, 371 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 1: who practices voodoo in hopes that she can help Eve 372 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 1: kill her father. And it's around this time also that 373 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: Eve heavily suggests to Maddie Moreau's husband that Maddie is 374 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: cheating on him. That's another really good Journey Smileett scene 375 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: where you can like, oh, it's especially with child actors, 376 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: like wow, you can really see the gears turning in 377 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: her head of like should I do it? Should I 378 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: do it? Should I do it? And then it's like, yeah, 379 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: it's really good and obviously like it was effective. I 380 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: mean I don't know, I mean maybe not the way 381 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: that she and the way that she wanted, but like 382 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: you know, part of me was thinking, like imagine being 383 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 1: an adult, an adult man, and a child is telling 384 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: you what is going on in your own household, Like yeah, yeah, yeah, 385 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,719 Speaker 1: that that was brutal. And then the second that was like, 386 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: this story is so well crafted that it's like, oh, 387 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: the second that happens, I'm like, oh, like I sort 388 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: of saw the incoming, but it was like satisfying because 389 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 1: of how full circle, like every everything that's planted has 390 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: this significance, and yeah, if you think you know what's coming, 391 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 1: you might be right. So then Eve goes back to 392 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: el Zora and the voodoo that el Zora had performed 393 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: arm was not what Eve had expected, and she's not 394 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: sure if it's going to work. And then Eve has 395 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: second thoughts about wanting her father dead, so she goes 396 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: to him, who is at that moment with Maddie, and 397 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: then Maddie's husband shows up, figures out what's going on, 398 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: and shoots and kills Louis, which plays out the way 399 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: that Moselle's premonition had played out earlier, where it seems 400 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: like someone had got hit by a train. So the 401 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: family grieves the loss of Louis, and then Eve finds 402 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 1: a letter that Louis had wrote to his sister Moselle, 403 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: who had apparently accused Louis of abusing his daughter, and 404 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: in the letter, Louis explains his version of what happened, 405 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: that Cecily was the one to come on to him 406 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: and that he fought her off. Um, so Eve confronts Cecily, 407 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: accusing her of having lied a what happened, and it's 408 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 1: a very heavy emotional moment. They're both in tears and 409 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 1: Cecily says, I don't know what happened, and they decided 410 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: to just get rid of the letter, and then the 411 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 1: voice over comes back in repeating that line about memory 412 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 1: being a selection of images, some elusive others imprinted indelibly 413 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: on the brain. And that is the end of the movie. 414 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: So the last shot is like haunting. Yeah, so let's 415 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 1: take a quick break and then we will come right 416 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: back to discuss and we're back. Um, so I think 417 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,439 Speaker 1: it would probably be best to start with kind of 418 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: the most sensitive aspects of this conversation and then lead 419 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: into the kind of more fun parts. So yeah, I mean, all, 420 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: I guess star there. I've been unfortunately like researching Child's 421 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: excuse for like seven or eight months at this point, 422 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: and so there's like a lot of that I had 423 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 1: watching this movie that were I mean, okay, so I 424 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: guess like trigger warning for this whole section, and we 425 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: can even like time code out in the description, like 426 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: if you want to skip over this conversation, you can 427 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: pick up here. But yeah, I thought that this was, like, 428 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 1: especially for its time, like a pretty authentic portrait of 429 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 1: how abuse plays out, and I really appreciated just kind 430 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: of like how it was showed for the kind of 431 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: mess that it is and how it affects families in 432 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: such specific ways. So, first of all, like this this 433 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: movie shows it shows the sexual abuse of a young 434 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,360 Speaker 1: black girl, which is I think for for like by 435 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: and large in movies it is shown to be abused 436 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 1: towards six white girls, which absolutely does happen very frequently, 437 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: but not at the same rate that it happens in 438 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: black and indigenous communities. So it's like, I feel like 439 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: it's an important story to tell on that end. And 440 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,159 Speaker 1: another thing that it kind of touches on that I 441 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: feel like is really not still kind of not understood 442 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: in any meaningful way, is that nine times out of 443 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: ten um sexual abuse experience as a child happens by 444 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 1: someone that you know at least somewhat, but most often 445 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 1: it is someone that you know well. And so like 446 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: we're we were raised, you know, because this happens in 447 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: the sixties. So first of all, we don't even have 448 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 1: these resources commonly availables, and they were even less available 449 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 1: in the sixties. And like we're generally taught as kids 450 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: that we should be afraid of strangers, and there's no 451 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: education and there's no kind of like attempt to raise 452 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: away and us that there could be a threat from 453 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,360 Speaker 1: someone that you know. And then if that happens, who 454 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 1: do you talk to? And it's just like not a 455 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: conversation that has had even now and definitely wasn't had 456 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: in the sixties. And so I don't know, I mean, 457 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 1: it's I thought it was a really interesting approach, especially 458 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: to set up the idea of like how memories are 459 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: so complicated and like it's just science that the more 460 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 1: often you visit a memory, the more often it tends 461 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: to sort of change and shift a little bit. But 462 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: I think with Sicily, what it comes down to is 463 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: like she's uh, like a girl who she knows and 464 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: we know by watching the movies, she has no one 465 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: to turn to who's going to believe her, and she's 466 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: it's there's and we'll talk about kind of like the 467 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: generational trauma aspects of this movie and a bit, but 468 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: she's well aware that there's really not anyone in her 469 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: life except Eve who is going to receive this information 470 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: in a way that is not blaming her um. And 471 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: so I really I don't know. I mean, it's so 472 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: depressing to see it laid out that way. But I 473 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: feel like this movie, the points that Sicily's story touches 474 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: are it's so common and it's like you never see 475 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: it happen. Yeah, I mean, and and and even if 476 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: like best case scenario for Sicily at this time in 477 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: history in particular, like even if she had told her mother, 478 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: her grandmother, her aunt and everyone believed her and everyone 479 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: was like, we're here to support you, there were still 480 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: no resources legally that she would have had because it's 481 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: still such a patriarchal structure, and you know, particularly being 482 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: black family, like dealing with the legal system in the 483 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, like, there would have just been so few 484 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: options for her. And I feel like it so where 485 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: it's it's interesting seeing this from Eve's perspective, especially because 486 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: she's trying to understand where her sister is coming from. 487 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't know, it's just it's like it's 488 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: heartbreaking and shitty. And then also seeing that I didn't 489 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: see the um the letter from the dad coming through 490 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 1: at the end of just abusers truly going to the grave, 491 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: being just completely unable to see themselves for who they 492 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 1: are and like to spend their entire lives deflecting, deflecting, 493 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: deflecting because you know, it's like her father knows that 494 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: her word won't be believed over his where for most people, 495 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 1: and that he is you know, he is the most 496 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: powerful person in that family, and and he's a very 497 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: powerful member of that community that town, Like everyone looks 498 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: up to him, everyone respects him. Yeah. So at the 499 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: end where like Cecily says, I don't know what happened 500 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: based on like conversations I had with like psychologists and 501 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: specialists in that field, it's like she's very likely being 502 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: completely honest there, like this happened to her really recently, 503 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: um by someone that she loved and trusted. Uh, she 504 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: doesn't have anyone to talk to about it. She doesn't 505 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: really have many people around her who can help her understand, 506 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: and there were no systems at this time to be 507 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: able to talk to a kid about something like that. 508 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: And so, yeah, I don't know, it's like heartbreaking, but 509 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: I thought it was like so well written and so 510 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: well performed by by Megan Good. So I have to say, 511 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: and I don't know if this is like So when 512 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: I watched this movie last night, and I watched it 513 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: with my partner and then I reread the Wikipedia entry, 514 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: I had the same read on the ending that you did. 515 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: My partner was like, oh his tape was like he 516 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: was like, oh, it seems like she was confused about 517 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: what happened and that you know, it's inconclusive. It's like, 518 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: I I hate to use its phrase, but like he said, 519 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: she said, Wikipedia did not help the The Wikipedia entry 520 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: on like the like plot, it says at the end, 521 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: Eve confronts Sicily and uses her second site to discover 522 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: what really happened. It ends with the sisters holding hands 523 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: gazing into the sunset. And so I had the exact 524 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: same reading that you did that like obviously the father 525 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: wrote this letter, you know, being like I didn't do this, 526 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: How could you think I would do this? And that 527 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,719 Speaker 1: we're supposed to by the end at least I finished 528 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: that movie thinking something like that that like the way 529 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: that Cecily described it is the way that it happened. 530 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that, like there might be a 531 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: read of the movie where there's where it's more ambiguous. 532 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 1: To me. I had the same reaction where I was like, oh, well, clearly, 533 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: you know, clearly he did this. And it was funny 534 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: because when that so I have a I have a 535 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 1: very very like visceral reaction when sexual violence is part 536 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: like a plot device in a movie where I'm almost like, 537 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: it's almost like disorienting and I kind of can't. It 538 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: challenges so much of like what I I've seen before, 539 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: And so the beginning of the movie they go to 540 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: such a great pains to show that the father is 541 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: like so doting of a father, particularly to Sicily, And 542 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: so it's one of those things where you know, it's 543 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: exactly what you were saying, Jamie, where I was like, 544 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: was he were the signs always there that he was 545 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: an abuser and I just missed them. I'm I'm remembering 546 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: them as charming, but actually they were creepy. That there's 547 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: that there's a scene early on when they're at that 548 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: lavish party and he's dancing with Sicily and he's like, oh, 549 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: you guys can't. Isn't my daughter a beautiful dancer? And 550 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: scenes like that where you're like, well, wait, was that 551 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: indicative of something more sinister going on? And I'm and 552 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: I'm and I missed it because I was so caught 553 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 1: up in this idea of like what a good dad. 554 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: I think this movie does a good job of challenging 555 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: our understanding of memory and challenging our understanding of like 556 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 1: how we put a puzzle together to really show what's 557 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 1: actually happening, because I cause I do feel like towards 558 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: the end, it's not clear to me what I have seen, right, 559 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: it's just a it's this a doting father where like 560 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: his daughter got mixed up? Or is this a sexual abuser? 561 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,439 Speaker 1: I think like the movie, and I think that when 562 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:17,919 Speaker 1: these things play out, I think abusers oftentimes can use 563 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: that that same dynamic of like, well, you know there, 564 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:23,479 Speaker 1: everyone's gonna think I'm just a good dad, Like who's 565 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: gonna believe this? I think that it could kind of 566 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,840 Speaker 1: work on multiple levels. I guess what I'm saying. Yeah, 567 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,799 Speaker 1: that's so. That is my thing with this movie. It 568 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: feels to me as though there is too much ambiguity, 569 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 1: and I wish that ambiguity had been just more squashed 570 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: by the end or something, because especially so I also 571 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: read it that she is a survivor of abuse and 572 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 1: he is an abuser. I think the three of us 573 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 1: are all just the type of people who are inclined 574 00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: to believe survivors believe women. That was our read, But 575 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 1: both times I watched this movie, by the end, I 576 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 1: was like, there's just there are ways to interpret it 577 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,839 Speaker 1: differently than our read. And I think that's a dangerous thing, 578 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: especially when dealing with a subject like child sex abuse, 579 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 1: which is something that if you're going to tell a 580 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: story about it, there shouldn't be ambiguity, because if there's ambiguity, 581 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: that gives people a chance to say, I don't think 582 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 1: it happened like that, or I don't believe them, or 583 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: it's all a big misunderstanding, especially because like we had 584 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: seen that other scene earlier where Cecily kind of it's like, no, Eve, 585 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 1: that's not what you saw. You saw this version of 586 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,240 Speaker 1: the truth. And the fact that we have seen Cecily 587 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,320 Speaker 1: distort the truth before, I think would also be grounds 588 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 1: for an interpretation that she is distorting the truth this 589 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 1: time too. I don't think that's what happened, or that 590 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: was not my read of it. But again, there's so 591 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 1: much ambiguity there, and at least for me there was 592 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: that I can I can see different interpretations of it. 593 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,239 Speaker 1: And then after like having all these thoughts, I came 594 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: upon an interview with the cast as well as the 595 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 1: director of this movie, Casey Lemons, that was like the 596 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: twentieth anniversary special, and when asked about that scene that 597 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: plays out two different ways, one as an adult abusing 598 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:31,359 Speaker 1: a child, and then the the second version, which is 599 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 1: a child having like a misguided I don't even know 600 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: how to just know what to call it exactly, but 601 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 1: the second version. This is what Casey Lemons said about 602 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: this moment in the movie quote. My intention was, what 603 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: if you explode this moment. It's actually a very innocent 604 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,360 Speaker 1: relationship that they're having. He loves his daughter, she adores 605 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,359 Speaker 1: her father. They adore each other, and what if one 606 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,920 Speaker 1: night they crossed a line and we're both completely traumatized. 607 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 1: But it spun everything else out of control. So to me, 608 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 1: it wasn't controversial, it was the story. It was strange 609 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: for people to ask me why do you have that 610 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 1: angle there? Well, that's the story end quote. So even 611 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 1: Casey lemons it's not helpful at all, a little evasive. 612 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 1: I was like, I was like, okay, I was really hoping. 613 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, she's gonna come through for us. 614 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 1: She's gonna be like I didn't that's a little man, 615 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,400 Speaker 1: that's that's a weird I mean, whatever, it's her movie. 616 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 1: I can't I can't be like huh, but yeah, we 617 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: can sort of be like I guess it's it's I 618 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: don't know. I feel like a number of ways about it. 619 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: I do agree that any movie that depicts child sex 620 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: abuse should be pretty clear about them, Like it's the 621 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,760 Speaker 1: easiest thing in the world to condemn, Like, why wouldn't 622 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,320 Speaker 1: you more clear they condemn it. I guess the argument 623 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: that I can see for the I mean, it's just 624 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: like it's I don't even I'm not even totally bothered 625 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: by the fact that we are told that he doesn't 626 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 1: see what he was doing as abuse. That is how 627 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: abusers feel all the time. But it's just like going 628 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: that one step further to make it clear how the 629 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: movie feels. I guess that the only count and this 630 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,760 Speaker 1: is like not even how I feel, but I do. 631 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 1: I don't know in movies and like this it almost 632 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: not to bring Doubt into the conversation, but similar to 633 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 1: Doubt a story that it's iconic and it does address 634 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: child sex abuse, and I feel like it's like almost 635 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 1: I don't know, like if this is just like kind 636 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,320 Speaker 1: of a movie thing that happened sometimes, but it's like 637 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 1: a movie that's supposed to start a discussion where it's 638 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: like bridget with you and your partner, you both interpreted 639 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: the ending really differently, and then by discussing how you 640 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: felt like differently about the ending. I don't know, Like 641 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,879 Speaker 1: I do see value in like ambiguous endings that can 642 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 1: start conversations. I just don't know that like this topic 643 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 1: is the one to have the this much ambiguity with. 644 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 1: I remember, like leaving the theater seeing Doubt, my mom 645 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 1: was like, so do you think he did it? Which 646 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 1: is like should not be the question you're asking. It's 647 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 1: like we need to be asking a more sophisticated question 648 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 1: than that, Like yeah, well, just something I want to 649 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: say is I think that, like you know, movies like 650 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,840 Speaker 1: Doubt and use by you, I mean, and Jamie, you 651 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: could probably speak to this as well. It is exceedingly 652 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: rare for child, for anybody, but especially children, to lie 653 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: about sexual violence, right, Like, It's just that, like, it's 654 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 1: exceedingly rare. And I think that movies like Doubt and 655 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 1: movies like Ease by You, even though I enjoy them both, 656 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,400 Speaker 1: I do think it makes it. It presents a universe 657 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,399 Speaker 1: we're in. Maybe it's not rare, but we know it's rare, 658 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Yeah, I agree, And I 659 00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 1: might have been giving this movie maybe a little more 660 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 1: credit then it totally deserves on that end. It's just 661 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,280 Speaker 1: I where I'm coming from is I've seen so many 662 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 1: movies that have just absolutely missed the mark, that don't 663 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,399 Speaker 1: even present the possibility that a child could be telling 664 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,960 Speaker 1: the truth about something like this. That the fact that 665 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: we are presented clearly with the fact that whatever happens 666 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:26,720 Speaker 1: that Cecily is like extremely traumatized by it and alters 667 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,279 Speaker 1: the course of her life. You don't usually even get 668 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,320 Speaker 1: that much. And and she like shuts down, she becomes 669 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 1: like she is like displaying all these kind of like 670 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:39,279 Speaker 1: classic symptoms of a child who has suffered abuse and 671 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,880 Speaker 1: doesn't know who to turn to about it. And you 672 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:48,920 Speaker 1: don't even usually get that much, which is really really bleak. Um. Yeah, 673 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,160 Speaker 1: and it's I do think that there is some value 674 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: in kind of reminding audiences that like abusers are going 675 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 1: to you know, generally defend themselves to the grave and 676 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 1: like it. Yeah, I don't know, it's that's so interesting. 677 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, I'm in like a weird headspace for it. 678 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,759 Speaker 1: But I for me, I was like, oh, the ending 679 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,320 Speaker 1: is like even based on like the images they chose 680 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:17,120 Speaker 1: to show Eve's um, you know, like vision at the end, 681 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:19,399 Speaker 1: I thought. For me, I was like, oh, I think 682 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,480 Speaker 1: that that corroborates in her reaction based off of that vision. 683 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,239 Speaker 1: Is like it seems like she was like I believe you. 684 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:30,720 Speaker 1: I'm sorry I came at you believing are like demonstrably 685 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:35,480 Speaker 1: deceitful abusive father like her reaction. But I like, and 686 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 1: I'd probably have to go back and rewatch that the 687 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 1: vision that you've has at the very end. But I 688 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 1: feel like the like specific images that were chosen to 689 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:48,719 Speaker 1: be included in that vision still contribute to the ambiguity 690 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 1: of it. Well at the end of Okay, so at 691 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: the end of the day, here's how I feel about 692 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: Like this is like something that I've been thinking about 693 00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,799 Speaker 1: a lot the last couple of weeks. But um, I 694 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,840 Speaker 1: think that were like often like when we're talking about 695 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:07,920 Speaker 1: stories like this and crimes like this, the thing is like, 696 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 1: even if what Samuel L. Jackson's character is saying is true, 697 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 1: he's still a child sex abuser, Like it doesn't matter, 698 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:17,600 Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? Like, I think that 699 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 1: there's like in the case of like, I'm just like 700 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,240 Speaker 1: fully Lolita brain. But like in the case of Lolita, 701 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:28,200 Speaker 1: a lot of like how people have discredited her character 702 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,919 Speaker 1: as by saying like, well, she had a crush on him, 703 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:35,319 Speaker 1: and so somehow like displaying any attempt to experiment with 704 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:39,840 Speaker 1: power as an adolescent means that you deserved whatever happened 705 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 1: to you. When it's like, at the end of the day, 706 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:47,719 Speaker 1: whether you know whether Cecily's presentation of the crime was 707 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,480 Speaker 1: true or whether Samuel L. Jackson's was. Either way, even 708 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:55,239 Speaker 1: if it was, you know, a kid trying to experiment 709 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,720 Speaker 1: with power with an adult that they trust, it's still 710 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 1: abuse for him to reciprocate for even a second and 711 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,239 Speaker 1: then to physically abuse her afterwards. So I but I 712 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: but the problem is I don't think that a lot 713 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:13,040 Speaker 1: of people understand that that even if even if like 714 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:17,360 Speaker 1: someone initiates with you, that the power and balance is 715 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,600 Speaker 1: that large and it's incestuous and all these other things, 716 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:25,040 Speaker 1: that it is still on the powerful adult, and that 717 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,600 Speaker 1: is still who the So yeah, I don't know. I'm 718 00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,400 Speaker 1: just like I've talked to a lot of survivors who 719 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 1: have felt guilt and have felt, you know, what happened 720 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,800 Speaker 1: to them was somehow less valid because they had been 721 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 1: curious about what that experience would be like, and then 722 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,399 Speaker 1: when an adult took advantage of them, you know it, 723 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,120 Speaker 1: it was abuse, and it confused them and it caused 724 00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,880 Speaker 1: all these negative repercussions in their life. And so I 725 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,120 Speaker 1: feel like it's it sucks because like, no matter what 726 00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,760 Speaker 1: happened in that scenario, even with Samuel L. Jackson's character 727 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 1: painting himself in the best possible light, he is still 728 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:07,319 Speaker 1: an abuser. And so it's like, yeah, yeah, And I 729 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,360 Speaker 1: want to add one thing to that. So I completely 730 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,319 Speaker 1: agree with you, and I want to take it a 731 00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,520 Speaker 1: bit further. And this might, I mean, this might be 732 00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,400 Speaker 1: colored by my own you know, whatever I'm I'm bringing 733 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,600 Speaker 1: to this conversation, But I agree with you and I 734 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 1: also would say, even if the moment between him and 735 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,719 Speaker 1: Cecily during the storm never happened, you and I have 736 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,759 Speaker 1: already talked about the beginning of this movie, where you know, 737 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,879 Speaker 1: he at a party at his in in his home 738 00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: with his wife and his children, he takes a woman 739 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 1: that is not his wife into a back room of 740 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 1: his of his home to have sex with her, right 741 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:45,600 Speaker 1: and his daughter happens to be there and sees it. 742 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,879 Speaker 1: He takes his daughter on these house calls where he's 743 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,279 Speaker 1: very clearly there to have sex with women. So even 744 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 1: if even if the thing was Cecily never happened, he 745 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:59,319 Speaker 1: is still a grown man introducing a very adult level 746 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:01,400 Speaker 1: of sexuality the end of the lives of his children, 747 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:03,680 Speaker 1: who are very young and too young to understand what's 748 00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:07,000 Speaker 1: going on. And so that's that is not how healthy 749 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,640 Speaker 1: mature adults engage with their children. So I would say 750 00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:15,759 Speaker 1: that he, you know, has cultivated a vibe in his 751 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,600 Speaker 1: household with his children where it's no wonder they're confused 752 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,600 Speaker 1: about sexuality. I would say that this movie wants him 753 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,759 Speaker 1: to be a lot more blameless than he is for 754 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,920 Speaker 1: some of the other behavior, because I feel like, of course, 755 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,400 Speaker 1: like his kids can't feel safe and healthy in an 756 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 1: environment where he is irresponsibly sexualizing things in a way 757 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,240 Speaker 1: that that that is far too advanced for them to understand, 758 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:44,160 Speaker 1: because their kids, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, 759 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:46,440 Speaker 1: It's it's weird because it's like I think that like 760 00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:54,040 Speaker 1: we're like having like I now knowing that quote from 761 00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,600 Speaker 1: from Casey Lemons, I'm just like, how much of this 762 00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:00,560 Speaker 1: was intended? It's yeah, I know who even I mean, 763 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:05,440 Speaker 1: it's like, I I mean, I guess if we're being generous, 764 00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:07,840 Speaker 1: like you could interpret her saying that's just how the 765 00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,480 Speaker 1: story goes of like you know, have the conversation. I'm 766 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:13,640 Speaker 1: not going to answer your questions for you, which is 767 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,880 Speaker 1: like valid, but I'm just like, well, you could denounce 768 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,880 Speaker 1: child sex abuse, that would be that would be that 769 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,479 Speaker 1: would be just you know, even if it's just that, 770 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,040 Speaker 1: that would be great. Um. But yeah, I mean it's like, yeah, 771 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:26,920 Speaker 1: we we all and I think most listeners of this 772 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:33,720 Speaker 1: show we believe sicily that you know, gigantic trauma was caused, 773 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,880 Speaker 1: and even with the most support possible, it's still, you know, 774 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,760 Speaker 1: kind of a lifelong journey for many people to recomm 775 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,840 Speaker 1: with this kind of abuse. Um, But yeah, I just 776 00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,320 Speaker 1: want to like, no matter what happened in that situation, 777 00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,200 Speaker 1: no matter whose account or somewhere in between is true, 778 00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,920 Speaker 1: he's a child sex abuser, like period, end of story. Um, 779 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,839 Speaker 1: And there's and especially with children, it's like there's there 780 00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:01,000 Speaker 1: is no like perfect victim. And yeah, I think that, 781 00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,600 Speaker 1: like it's that's just like something that we even like 782 00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,680 Speaker 1: you know, like feminist and people who are like very 783 00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:10,920 Speaker 1: inclined to believe survivors like need to work on is 784 00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:14,279 Speaker 1: like the way that these like dynamics play out are 785 00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,839 Speaker 1: not cleanly, like I said no, and then he did this, 786 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,600 Speaker 1: Like it is often very ambiguous and it comes down 787 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,840 Speaker 1: to power dynamics and all these other things. So sure, 788 00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,160 Speaker 1: and I wonder if the intention was to explore like 789 00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:33,400 Speaker 1: that version of the ambiguity. But she told us, I 790 00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,680 Speaker 1: just I know, and we also like, you know, just 791 00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,879 Speaker 1: considering the context of the time that this movie came 792 00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:46,680 Speaker 1: out today, Like so this is like ven where steeped 793 00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:52,520 Speaker 1: in you know, patriarchal standards, toxic masculinity, a rape culture 794 00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:57,160 Speaker 1: that tends to believe the perpetrators of these crimes rather 795 00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:02,080 Speaker 1: than the survivors. This is our rape culture. Every generation 796 00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,840 Speaker 1: has their own rape culture. This is our rape culture. 797 00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:09,319 Speaker 1: So so to to tackle a story that deals with 798 00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,520 Speaker 1: this subject matter again, it has to be done so 799 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,080 Speaker 1: carefully and that ambigu I really feel that that ambiguity 800 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,359 Speaker 1: needs to be removed if you're going to tackle it responsibly. 801 00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,359 Speaker 1: And I just I can't. And it's like, sure, this 802 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:27,880 Speaker 1: is us, you know, post me too, but even like, 803 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,480 Speaker 1: oh god, that's what that's that's what this is. Why 804 00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:32,480 Speaker 1: this I was like so nervous to talk about this 805 00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:37,120 Speaker 1: movie and then why I think it's so challenging and well, 806 00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:39,759 Speaker 1: the other thing too, is um, the other thing that 807 00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:43,400 Speaker 1: really bothers me about this movie is the abuse that 808 00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:48,920 Speaker 1: we see happen on screen. Is us seeing actor Samuel L. Jackson, 809 00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:53,800 Speaker 1: a full adult male kiss that's Megan Good on screen, 810 00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:57,280 Speaker 1: who was fifteen or sixteen at the time of shooting 811 00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:01,200 Speaker 1: this movie. Underage. Yeah, I just it could have been 812 00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:03,600 Speaker 1: should have been framed in such a way where this 813 00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:07,040 Speaker 1: child actor did not have to kiss and be kissed 814 00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:11,239 Speaker 1: by an adult many. Oh, I don't like it. Like 815 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,359 Speaker 1: it's not like I don't like it. I think there 816 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:18,120 Speaker 1: are ways to even if you are trying to depict 817 00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,920 Speaker 1: like a scene. You're trying to depict on screen an 818 00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:25,800 Speaker 1: underaged girl and a grown man. You want you wanted 819 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,080 Speaker 1: to pick them together. There are ways to get around 820 00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:33,719 Speaker 1: having a The actor's actually portray this right like, there 821 00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:35,600 Speaker 1: are ways to do it. I just don't like it. 822 00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:37,279 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if you have ever seen 823 00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:40,960 Speaker 1: that movie. Um, it's the it's the it's kind of 824 00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:43,399 Speaker 1: build as like a sequel to do the right thing. 825 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,480 Speaker 1: The Spike Lee movie I'm gonna blank the name. Oh um, 826 00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:51,000 Speaker 1: Red Hook Summer. It's a it's a like wild movie, 827 00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:53,359 Speaker 1: but I do not recommend it, but there's a there. 828 00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:57,479 Speaker 1: It also deals with childhood sexual violence. And something about 829 00:49:57,480 --> 00:49:59,400 Speaker 1: that movie that really sticks with me is that the 830 00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:01,520 Speaker 1: way that it's the picked it seems so it seems 831 00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:05,640 Speaker 1: it's so egregiously like you know, you you as a 832 00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,360 Speaker 1: as a filmmaker, you don't want to be depicting a 833 00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:13,920 Speaker 1: child and an adult having like having a physical sexual 834 00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:17,920 Speaker 1: like relations on screen. And I feel like sometimes sometimes 835 00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:20,200 Speaker 1: films can get there, maybe they're trying to critique it 836 00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,120 Speaker 1: or attack it or what have you, but at the 837 00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:23,800 Speaker 1: end of the day, you don't want to be depicting 838 00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:25,440 Speaker 1: it on screen. At least in my book, right, I 839 00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:27,520 Speaker 1: just think that there's there's gotta be a way to 840 00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:32,880 Speaker 1: handle it differently. I think, yes, I agree, Yeah, I 841 00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,560 Speaker 1: this is this episode is a long plug for Lolita podcast. 842 00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,520 Speaker 1: There's there's like a whole, there's a whole. I I 843 00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:43,160 Speaker 1: completely agree, and there's it's frustrating because what I think, 844 00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:47,920 Speaker 1: just knowing is when the second Lolita movie came out, 845 00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,759 Speaker 1: so I'm very intimately familiar with what the laws were 846 00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:55,560 Speaker 1: with child performers in this specific year. Um So, first 847 00:50:55,600 --> 00:51:00,200 Speaker 1: of all, I feel like it is always not even 848 00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:02,520 Speaker 1: if you have, like there's a number of stories of 849 00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,600 Speaker 1: like movies that that well, this is part of the 850 00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:07,560 Speaker 1: reason that I was frustrated that there isn't a ton 851 00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,120 Speaker 1: of information about the production of this movie, or there 852 00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:12,279 Speaker 1: wasn't as much as I would have liked on the 853 00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:16,279 Speaker 1: subject matter I was interested in because at this time 854 00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:18,279 Speaker 1: there was a law for movies that were shot in 855 00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:21,480 Speaker 1: nine six, at least there was a new law introduced 856 00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:26,239 Speaker 1: where there couldn't be any like you had to guaranteed 857 00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:28,960 Speaker 1: this movie went past a lawyer to be allowed to 858 00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:33,000 Speaker 1: be released because there was a Child Pornography um Act 859 00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:39,480 Speaker 1: passed in that severely restricted what you could show on screen, 860 00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:43,560 Speaker 1: and it was like generally a pretty good law, but 861 00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:46,480 Speaker 1: then you find kind of all these um stories that 862 00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:50,400 Speaker 1: are people trying to skirt around this law. So I 863 00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:52,400 Speaker 1: would guess that in many of the shots that you 864 00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:55,000 Speaker 1: don't see Megan Goods face that is not her, that 865 00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:57,840 Speaker 1: is an adult body double. That seems to be the 866 00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:01,279 Speaker 1: most popular workaround that said, you do still see the 867 00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:05,279 Speaker 1: actress underage Megan good kiss Samuel L. Jackson and I 868 00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,880 Speaker 1: just two things. Is like, first of all, no matter 869 00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:12,040 Speaker 1: how much like there's sometimes like a director will be like, well, 870 00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:14,800 Speaker 1: I had a you know, a child psychologist on call, 871 00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,560 Speaker 1: so that if the actor didn't feel comfortable talking to me, 872 00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:19,399 Speaker 1: they could talk to this person. It's just not worth 873 00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,799 Speaker 1: the risk at all, like for anyone. And it's like, 874 00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,920 Speaker 1: if you need evidence that that's true, talked to almost 875 00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:28,880 Speaker 1: any child actor who has been like Natalie Portman has 876 00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,480 Speaker 1: talked about it extensively. There's like a number of child 877 00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:33,319 Speaker 1: actors who have done scenes like this where like I 878 00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:35,399 Speaker 1: just didn't feel comfortable, like I felt like I felt 879 00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:37,880 Speaker 1: like there's a hundred people around me whose jobs depend 880 00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,520 Speaker 1: on me doing this. I and I was ten, What 881 00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:42,680 Speaker 1: was I going to do? You know? And then on 882 00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:46,120 Speaker 1: top of that, one of the the the I guess 883 00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:49,279 Speaker 1: the one of the main notes I had for just 884 00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:53,520 Speaker 1: like how this because I do think that for eaves By, 885 00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:57,120 Speaker 1: you handles c s A in a movie like better 886 00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:00,279 Speaker 1: than almost any other movie of this year or this 887 00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:02,760 Speaker 1: series of years did, which is not to say it's perfect, 888 00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:04,719 Speaker 1: but it is definitely better because this is the year 889 00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,680 Speaker 1: that Lolita came out. Right, I actually have a question 890 00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:10,399 Speaker 1: for you. I don't I'm not to keep making you 891 00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:14,839 Speaker 1: talk about Lolita, but so I've seen that n version 892 00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:19,000 Speaker 1: of Lolita several times. There are scenes where um, Jeremy 893 00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,560 Speaker 1: Irons and Dominique Swain kiss There's like a scene where 894 00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,240 Speaker 1: like she's sitting on his lap. Is that a body 895 00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:28,560 Speaker 1: double or is that actually her? When there's it's it's 896 00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:30,840 Speaker 1: a bunch of different stuff. The amount of time and 897 00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:34,640 Speaker 1: it's like it ultimately obviously was not worth it, right, 898 00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,759 Speaker 1: But yeah, for them, it was anytime she appeared to 899 00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:41,120 Speaker 1: be nude, it was a body double. Anytime that she 900 00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:43,360 Speaker 1: kissed him, they had to run it by a lawyer. 901 00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:45,520 Speaker 1: Her parents were on set and there was a child 902 00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:48,839 Speaker 1: psychologist on set anytime she sat on his lap, there 903 00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:51,560 Speaker 1: was a pillow between them. So there are like more 904 00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:55,000 Speaker 1: measures than would be taken even a decade before, but 905 00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:58,200 Speaker 1: it's still not enough. Going off of that, I had 906 00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:01,360 Speaker 1: a conversation with a friend of this podcast, Eva Vivez, 907 00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:06,239 Speaker 1: who is a survivor and has you know, incorporated just 908 00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:09,319 Speaker 1: kind of the lasting effects of CISA into a lot 909 00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:12,640 Speaker 1: of her work, and she pointed out, and it's totally 910 00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:17,160 Speaker 1: true that um in stories about CISA, the movies and 911 00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,600 Speaker 1: projects that tend to be more recognized are movies and 912 00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:24,640 Speaker 1: projects that explicitly show the abuse. And she feels strongly 913 00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:30,240 Speaker 1: that that is like very telling bias and also something 914 00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:32,360 Speaker 1: that just doesn't need to happen, Like you can show 915 00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:36,520 Speaker 1: the effects of CISA without showing it, And that's even 916 00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:39,360 Speaker 1: true for this movie. You could not have those scenes 917 00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:43,920 Speaker 1: and still have that plot point be effective, right, Like 918 00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,120 Speaker 1: you don't need to show it. But the movies that 919 00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:49,840 Speaker 1: are most successful that deal with this topic always always 920 00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,080 Speaker 1: always show it, and the movies that just show the 921 00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:55,160 Speaker 1: effects of it are more likely to kind of get 922 00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:58,000 Speaker 1: swept under the rugs. So that's like another that's just 923 00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:01,239 Speaker 1: I mean, like it's it's so except voitative, and I 924 00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:04,120 Speaker 1: think it really it. I mean, I think we should 925 00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:08,960 Speaker 1: be asking the question whether or not physical depictions of 926 00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:14,120 Speaker 1: childhood sexual violence we're making that profitable and why because 927 00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:15,600 Speaker 1: it sounds like from what you just said, it sounds 928 00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:19,080 Speaker 1: like we are we are, and it's it's frustrating because 929 00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:22,920 Speaker 1: it's like I don't know it's there. It's a really 930 00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:26,239 Speaker 1: complicated question to even wrote, because I don't know. I 931 00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:29,640 Speaker 1: wasn't able to find out if if Kasey Lemons was 932 00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,120 Speaker 1: a survivor of this kind of abuse her self, but 933 00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:36,000 Speaker 1: I know of like several survivors of abuse who have 934 00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:41,279 Speaker 1: made movies about CSA that show to an extent what 935 00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:43,719 Speaker 1: that abuses, whether it's in montage or whatever. And so 936 00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:45,839 Speaker 1: it's like I don't even really feel comfortable being like 937 00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,520 Speaker 1: no one can do it. I think that when you're 938 00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:52,920 Speaker 1: when you have a child actor you it's kind of 939 00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:57,440 Speaker 1: unconscionable to do um. But in terms of like I 940 00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:00,200 Speaker 1: don't know, I mean, it's like there was that it 941 00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:02,480 Speaker 1: was like a really popular HBO movie a couple of 942 00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:06,800 Speaker 1: years ago. I think it's called The Act or is 943 00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:09,680 Speaker 1: that what it was by Jennifer Fox, and it was 944 00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:13,840 Speaker 1: starring La Laura Dern, and it was about Jennifer Fox's 945 00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:16,960 Speaker 1: childhood sexual abuse, and it actually it reminded me a 946 00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:19,840 Speaker 1: lot of Eve's bio to the part where I'm certain 947 00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:23,359 Speaker 1: that she has seen it, where it is about her 948 00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:27,960 Speaker 1: revisiting her child sexual abuse and revisiting the memories, and 949 00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:30,040 Speaker 1: the more she talks to people in her life from 950 00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:32,080 Speaker 1: that time, the more the memories kind of change in 951 00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:35,120 Speaker 1: shape and end up kind of landing on what she 952 00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:40,000 Speaker 1: believes the truth is. And yeah, sorry, it's the tail. 953 00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:45,600 Speaker 1: It's not the act that which is like I feel 954 00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:47,600 Speaker 1: complicated about it. That's not what the episode is about, 955 00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,399 Speaker 1: but it is it. It takes on similar stuff where 956 00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:54,440 Speaker 1: it shows you the abuse in a way that just, uh, 957 00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:56,200 Speaker 1: it's it's weird because it's like, I don't want to 958 00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:59,680 Speaker 1: tell a survivor like you shouldn't have done this, But 959 00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:03,040 Speaker 1: in terms of like having a child actor in that scene, 960 00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:07,759 Speaker 1: I don't think that they should have. Like it's extremely complicated, 961 00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:11,840 Speaker 1: but I personally, like, I personally think that you could 962 00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:15,440 Speaker 1: if I could change stuff about ease By, I would 963 00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:19,120 Speaker 1: get rid of the physical depiction of those scenes. And 964 00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:21,440 Speaker 1: I think that honestly, it can be more impactful to 965 00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:25,760 Speaker 1: hear the child and the abuser describe it in their 966 00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:29,520 Speaker 1: own words. You can have the same effect without having 967 00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:32,320 Speaker 1: to show that and just kind of make it a 968 00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:34,720 Speaker 1: little clearer, like you were saying, like you're boss saying 969 00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:39,040 Speaker 1: at the end that no matter whose recollection is corrected, 970 00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:41,320 Speaker 1: she is a survivor of abuse, and that that's like 971 00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:43,920 Speaker 1: something she's going to need to, you know, continue to 972 00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:48,280 Speaker 1: deal with throughout her entire life. Well, from that same 973 00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:53,560 Speaker 1: interview with the cast and some of the crew, Megan 974 00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:57,560 Speaker 1: Good spoke about like these specific moments in the movie, 975 00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:01,080 Speaker 1: and here's what she had to say. Again. The actor 976 00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:05,720 Speaker 1: who plays Cecily says, quote, we had to shoot it 977 00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:12,440 Speaker 1: probably fifteen times, so God, we had to shoot my perspective, 978 00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:17,720 Speaker 1: his perspective, and then the actual perspective of what really happened. Now, 979 00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:19,320 Speaker 1: I'm going to pause from the quote here for a 980 00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:22,440 Speaker 1: moment because it is not specific. She means by that 981 00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:26,280 Speaker 1: it is not specific what the quote actual perspective of 982 00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:30,320 Speaker 1: what really happened is. They're playing around with us. I 983 00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:35,000 Speaker 1: don't like it. I don't like it because it's possible 984 00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:38,120 Speaker 1: that that was even cut from the movie. Like whatever 985 00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:40,080 Speaker 1: she's talking about might not even appear, because I know 986 00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:42,680 Speaker 1: there's like a director's cut of this movie too at 987 00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:46,080 Speaker 1: different I'm not sure. But so here's the rest of 988 00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:49,720 Speaker 1: the quote. I remember the day before the scene, everyone 989 00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:53,520 Speaker 1: was so anxious. You okay, you okay. I'm like, yeah, 990 00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:57,520 Speaker 1: I'm fine. Sam was as equally nervous. That was kind 991 00:58:57,560 --> 00:58:59,800 Speaker 1: of the defining moment. That's the moment that brought the 992 00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:02,640 Speaker 1: movie be together and what it was based on. I 993 00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:05,800 Speaker 1: felt a huge responsibility to do a good job, but 994 00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:10,280 Speaker 1: I was definitely nerve wracked for sure. End quote. So 995 00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:12,720 Speaker 1: just to hear that, like they had to shoot it 996 00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:17,320 Speaker 1: so many times, everyone was feeling very uneasy about it, 997 00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:21,120 Speaker 1: Like those are indications that like, don't fucking put it 998 00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:23,960 Speaker 1: in the movie. And it really it really speaks to 999 00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:26,720 Speaker 1: what you were just talking about, Jamie, about like Natalie 1000 00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:29,880 Speaker 1: Portman saying, you know, so many people's jobs and so 1001 00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:32,280 Speaker 1: much money depends on me just being able to do this, 1002 00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:34,040 Speaker 1: and I maybe I didn't want to do it, but 1003 00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:35,880 Speaker 1: like I just had to. I just had to do it, right. 1004 00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:39,680 Speaker 1: I don't think that we should be putting children in 1005 00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:43,680 Speaker 1: positions who they're already so vulnerable, putting them in positions 1006 00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:46,080 Speaker 1: where they feel this way and they feel an immense 1007 00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:48,280 Speaker 1: like the fact that Megan Good said she felt pressure 1008 00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:51,479 Speaker 1: to get it right that just kind of heart it's 1009 00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:57,080 Speaker 1: and it says, it's like drives me, like she's not 1010 00:59:57,400 --> 00:59:59,880 Speaker 1: even the only child actor that had to deal with 1011 01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:04,360 Speaker 1: this exact issue this calendar year. Like that is so 1012 01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:08,600 Speaker 1: absurd that it's like there are just young teens and 1013 01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:11,800 Speaker 1: kids being put in this position in the first place, 1014 01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:15,440 Speaker 1: where like, yeah, it's it's an unfair ask. It's also 1015 01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:18,800 Speaker 1: like the fact that it's also a financial transaction on 1016 01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:24,120 Speaker 1: top of that, where so even like you know, it's 1017 01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:26,360 Speaker 1: like if you have even one parent who's kind of 1018 01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:28,400 Speaker 1: acting in bad faith and doesn't want to rock the 1019 01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:30,240 Speaker 1: boat and wants to make sure that the check has 1020 01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:34,240 Speaker 1: gotten then it's not even a guarantee that Like, I mean, 1021 01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:38,080 Speaker 1: this movie proves not all parents are good and like 1022 01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:42,200 Speaker 1: and certainly, you know, child actors parents have a very 1023 01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:46,480 Speaker 1: sordid record of acting in the best interest of their children. 1024 01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:51,000 Speaker 1: And so I don't even necessarily trust like a fourteen 1025 01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:53,840 Speaker 1: or fifty year old mother to say, like, no, she 1026 01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:57,680 Speaker 1: can do it, Like that may not be true, like 1027 01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:00,880 Speaker 1: or or you know, there's can then there should And 1028 01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:03,360 Speaker 1: I don't know that that quote reminds me a lot 1029 01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:06,400 Speaker 1: of Yeah, the actor who played the lead to this, 1030 01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:09,560 Speaker 1: this girl, Dominique Swain, that was like a very similar 1031 01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:12,120 Speaker 1: thing of like, yeah, it was really nerve wracking, and 1032 01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:15,000 Speaker 1: everyone was really nervous, and like Jeremy Irons was like 1033 01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:17,840 Speaker 1: crying during the scene, and just everyone was really stressed 1034 01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:20,080 Speaker 1: out about it, and I just did my best because 1035 01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:22,880 Speaker 1: I knew I had to do it, and like everyone, 1036 01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:25,360 Speaker 1: I don't know, I just I think that there are 1037 01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:30,160 Speaker 1: ways to tell these stories because their stories worth being told. 1038 01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:34,480 Speaker 1: But in live action it's not worth the risk towards 1039 01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:38,760 Speaker 1: the underage performer period, Like I feel like there's not 1040 01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:42,680 Speaker 1: to like hand it to, you know, Tarantino or anything. 1041 01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:46,240 Speaker 1: But like how in kill Bill, like the most traumatic 1042 01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:50,720 Speaker 1: scene towards a kid happens in animation instead of having 1043 01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:54,120 Speaker 1: making it happen, you know, instead of putting a child 1044 01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:59,160 Speaker 1: actor through the grueling, brutal, violent sexual violence that takes 1045 01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:01,880 Speaker 1: place in that scene. Like if you really, really, really, 1046 01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:05,000 Speaker 1: as a director, feel that this needs to be shown, 1047 01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:09,280 Speaker 1: you have to work around, like you you can't make 1048 01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:11,520 Speaker 1: a kid do it because you think it needs to 1049 01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:14,760 Speaker 1: be done, find another way, And I think there are like, 1050 01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:17,040 Speaker 1: like you just said, there's so many ways around it. 1051 01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:20,400 Speaker 1: I've seen so I've seen it done. Listen, there are 1052 01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:21,680 Speaker 1: ways to do it or it's like no one is 1053 01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:23,800 Speaker 1: going to be confused that you're watching a scene that's 1054 01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:26,640 Speaker 1: meant to be about childhood, sexual assault or something. Right, 1055 01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:28,680 Speaker 1: there are so many ways around it, and I just 1056 01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:33,360 Speaker 1: think like just depicting it on screen I think is 1057 01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:36,720 Speaker 1: the least imaginative when there are so many different ways. Like, 1058 01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:40,600 Speaker 1: if you're a storyteller, I always feel there's a there's 1059 01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:42,600 Speaker 1: a way to show something in a way that's respectful, 1060 01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:46,720 Speaker 1: and especially for something that's that is as fraught and 1061 01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:50,480 Speaker 1: sensitive as this topic. You you got, you got, you 1062 01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:55,560 Speaker 1: have to like be willing to work to find that solution. Yeah. 1063 01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:58,360 Speaker 1: I wish I wish the Casey Lemons had said more 1064 01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:01,440 Speaker 1: on on that, because it's like I do think that 1065 01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:03,720 Speaker 1: this is like one of the better told c s 1066 01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:07,440 Speaker 1: A stories of this decade, and it still makes a 1067 01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:12,760 Speaker 1: series of very common missteps that end end up you know, 1068 01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:17,560 Speaker 1: kind of putting definitely putting a child actor in danger 1069 01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:23,439 Speaker 1: and under undue pressure for a kid. Yeah. Yeah, so 1070 01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:27,479 Speaker 1: it's I don't know. I think like it's it's fucking hard, 1071 01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:30,760 Speaker 1: Like I it's I I am glad that a story 1072 01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:33,800 Speaker 1: like this was was being attempted to be told, but 1073 01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:39,480 Speaker 1: it's certainly not told perfectly. Um so yeah, yes, I 1074 01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:43,520 Speaker 1: mean it's it's challenging. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's like 1075 01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:46,680 Speaker 1: there's so few, like I can't really think of many 1076 01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:52,360 Speaker 1: movies that are like, yeah, nailed it, Like the closest 1077 01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:54,840 Speaker 1: like this is this, Like you couldn't think of a 1078 01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:57,240 Speaker 1: more different movie, but like one of the only movies 1079 01:03:57,280 --> 01:04:00,720 Speaker 1: that I feel like was really praise was heaped upon 1080 01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:02,880 Speaker 1: it and it had a lot to do with these 1081 01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:07,040 Speaker 1: themes but didn't show abuse. Is like Spotlight, Like that's 1082 01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:11,479 Speaker 1: one of the only movies that is centrally involves child 1083 01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:13,920 Speaker 1: sexual abuse and doesn't show it. And I guess Doubt 1084 01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:17,400 Speaker 1: does it too. But the central question around Doubt is 1085 01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:20,120 Speaker 1: like did it happen? When it's like that's not the question. 1086 01:04:20,120 --> 01:04:24,600 Speaker 1: It's not the question, at least in Spotlight. It's like, yeah, 1087 01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:27,640 Speaker 1: it obviously happened. It happened, that we don't need to 1088 01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:32,240 Speaker 1: show it on screen, but rest assured that it definitely happened, 1089 01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:35,120 Speaker 1: and that works. I am glad that movies like that exists. Yeah, 1090 01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:37,400 Speaker 1: and it can be like effective and you can come 1091 01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:40,480 Speaker 1: out you know, if it's framed to you a certain way. 1092 01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:43,080 Speaker 1: You can even have characters in the story that doubt 1093 01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:46,840 Speaker 1: the truth of what happened and take you through like 1094 01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:50,160 Speaker 1: the journey of like discovering Oh, like I should have 1095 01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:54,640 Speaker 1: just believed these survivors the entire time, and like it 1096 01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:57,680 Speaker 1: can be done because that's part of the narrative of 1097 01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:01,120 Speaker 1: Like a lot of people who are survivors of abuse, 1098 01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:04,760 Speaker 1: they face other people not believing them, or they face 1099 01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:08,360 Speaker 1: their own like did this happen? How did it happen 1100 01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:11,680 Speaker 1: at all? Happen so quickly? I don't exactly know the like, 1101 01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:15,640 Speaker 1: especially when you live in a culture that is inclined 1102 01:05:15,680 --> 01:05:18,680 Speaker 1: to not believe you and to kind of gas light 1103 01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:23,880 Speaker 1: you into alternate versions of reality. Like that's part of 1104 01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:27,960 Speaker 1: many survivors experience. But again, that's why it has to 1105 01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:31,080 Speaker 1: be handled so responsibly and so carefully if you're going 1106 01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:33,920 Speaker 1: to tell a story about it. Yeah, it's weird. It's 1107 01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:36,800 Speaker 1: weird because I feel like they're outside of the fact 1108 01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:39,880 Speaker 1: that I mean, we all agree that the actual scenes 1109 01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:42,440 Speaker 1: should not have been shot, but it's like to a 1110 01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:46,120 Speaker 1: one viewer who is inclined to believe survivors, I feel 1111 01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:49,880 Speaker 1: like it's all there, but it's but for people who 1112 01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:53,240 Speaker 1: are not inclined to believe survivors. And then also just 1113 01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:55,800 Speaker 1: like straight up, I can't really put myself in the 1114 01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:59,920 Speaker 1: mindset of like an adult, I don't. I mean, I'm 1115 01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:04,720 Speaker 1: curious of like what the conversations were, because I'm like, 1116 01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:09,600 Speaker 1: you know, they were certainly different and I and I 1117 01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:11,120 Speaker 1: and I bet that there were a lot of people 1118 01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:15,840 Speaker 1: that left with like, well, you know, I love Samuel L. Jackson, 1119 01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:21,280 Speaker 1: so shrug, like just unclear. Yeah, especially when you cast 1120 01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:24,720 Speaker 1: like huge, really famous actors and roles like that. I 1121 01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:27,920 Speaker 1: feel like audiences are very often like I love sam Jackson, 1122 01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:31,760 Speaker 1: I love Jeremy Irons, So I guess no harm, no foul, 1123 01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:35,720 Speaker 1: Like yeah, I honestly like I almost feel like I'm 1124 01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:37,920 Speaker 1: bringing a lot of my own baggage into this movie. 1125 01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:41,360 Speaker 1: But you know that the scene in the movie where 1126 01:06:42,040 --> 01:06:45,960 Speaker 1: Mozelle uh from blanking her name Lin Witfield, the mom 1127 01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:48,240 Speaker 1: and the grandmother are all talking and it's they're having 1128 01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:52,360 Speaker 1: a very adult conversation about infidelity, and uh, Samuel Jackson 1129 01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:54,720 Speaker 1: comes home and Cecily is like, you need to go 1130 01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:57,479 Speaker 1: down to the bar because the women are mad, mad, 1131 01:06:57,560 --> 01:06:59,840 Speaker 1: like get out of the house, you know. Again, sort 1132 01:06:59,840 --> 01:07:03,320 Speaker 1: of the idea of like I think Samuel L. Jackson's 1133 01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:06,760 Speaker 1: presence and their household was very disruptive to the to 1134 01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:09,600 Speaker 1: the young, to the girls, to his young daughters. I 1135 01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:14,000 Speaker 1: think that like he in Cheap brought his sexuality into 1136 01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:16,920 Speaker 1: his home in a way that made it made it 1137 01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:19,680 Speaker 1: his children's business, It made it was like on their minds, 1138 01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:22,080 Speaker 1: and I think, you know, it's clear to me that 1139 01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:24,440 Speaker 1: there's a lot of ambiguity in the universe of the film. 1140 01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:26,479 Speaker 1: But there's a scene in the film that I feel 1141 01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:29,760 Speaker 1: like for me, it's it's kind of like case closed. 1142 01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:33,680 Speaker 1: After he is shot and have his funeral, there's this 1143 01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:37,280 Speaker 1: scene where the mom and all the kids are in 1144 01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:40,000 Speaker 1: bed together and it's sort of almost this like picturesque 1145 01:07:40,040 --> 01:07:43,480 Speaker 1: like a frame, And it seems to me like Samuel L. 1146 01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:46,000 Speaker 1: Jackson was the cause of a lot of disruption in 1147 01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:49,040 Speaker 1: their household. Now that he is dead, their household is 1148 01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:53,320 Speaker 1: one of like stability and and like they're on this 1149 01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:57,439 Speaker 1: process of becoming healthier and healing and so like it's 1150 01:07:57,520 --> 01:08:01,439 Speaker 1: like obviously, you know, even sad that her father is dead, 1151 01:08:01,480 --> 01:08:03,520 Speaker 1: and like the funeral scene is very is very rough. 1152 01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:05,960 Speaker 1: But it seems it seems to me that the universe 1153 01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:09,680 Speaker 1: of the film is suggesting that his presence being removed 1154 01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:12,280 Speaker 1: from their their domestic life, is what gives them the 1155 01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:16,439 Speaker 1: ability to like have this kind of chance, a little 1156 01:08:16,439 --> 01:08:19,519 Speaker 1: more stability and a little more like, you know, a 1157 01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:21,400 Speaker 1: little more like I don't even know the word for it, 1158 01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:27,840 Speaker 1: like domestic just not having yeah, yeah, true, Yeah, it's 1159 01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:30,880 Speaker 1: what the It's what the fortune teller says to she says, 1160 01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:34,439 Speaker 1: just wait for three years and you'll be happy and right, 1161 01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:37,639 Speaker 1: you'll have peace. That's why I am, like, I am 1162 01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:40,919 Speaker 1: frustrated it and kind of like it to some extent, 1163 01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:43,960 Speaker 1: like inclined to be like it's all there in the writing, 1164 01:08:44,080 --> 01:08:47,120 Speaker 1: and it's like you didn't see it. You you didn't 1165 01:08:47,160 --> 01:08:50,040 Speaker 1: see it, you know, but it's like, you know, but 1166 01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:54,200 Speaker 1: in a lot of audience members didn't see it. If 1167 01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:56,439 Speaker 1: there's still people in that are like, I don't know, 1168 01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:59,600 Speaker 1: but I feel like, you know, I don't know. It 1169 01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:03,160 Speaker 1: gets so tricky because you I just don't like, I 1170 01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:08,679 Speaker 1: feel like everything you need to know is in the story. Right, 1171 01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:11,640 Speaker 1: But it's like some of it is pretty subtle. Some 1172 01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:14,080 Speaker 1: of it you need to like really be paying attention, 1173 01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:15,880 Speaker 1: or some of it you just need to kind of have, 1174 01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:19,559 Speaker 1: like I don't know, like a particular perspective that is 1175 01:09:19,640 --> 01:09:22,479 Speaker 1: going to believe the children, because I feel like if 1176 01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:26,120 Speaker 1: you can get yourself into that mindset, all the information 1177 01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:30,120 Speaker 1: you need is there. But the fact that I don't know, it's, yeah, 1178 01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:33,640 Speaker 1: it's you can't put it entirely on the artist to 1179 01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:37,240 Speaker 1: be like you have to spoon feed to every male 1180 01:09:37,280 --> 01:09:42,040 Speaker 1: audience viewer that this is a bad thing. Like it 1181 01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:45,760 Speaker 1: sucks that it's like that that is still kind of 1182 01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:48,880 Speaker 1: a reality, do you know what I mean? Like I 1183 01:09:48,920 --> 01:09:54,120 Speaker 1: wish that we could make more subtle films about topics 1184 01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:57,599 Speaker 1: like this, but it's just such an underdiscussed issue that 1185 01:09:57,760 --> 01:10:00,240 Speaker 1: people don't fucking get it. And it's like you need 1186 01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:04,800 Speaker 1: movies like fucking Spotlight where it's literally taking the little 1187 01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:06,760 Speaker 1: apple sauce and putting it in your mouth of like 1188 01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:09,559 Speaker 1: this is a crime, this is bad, eat your food, 1189 01:10:10,120 --> 01:10:14,280 Speaker 1: don't do crimes, you know. Like it's just so there's 1190 01:10:14,360 --> 01:10:18,599 Speaker 1: no like like in the way that there for for 1191 01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:22,680 Speaker 1: other issues, there has been more you know room for 1192 01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:28,519 Speaker 1: subtlety in art, there isn't on this issue, and I 1193 01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:30,559 Speaker 1: think that that, you know, sucks for artists who have 1194 01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:32,960 Speaker 1: experienced it and want to speak to it and there aren't, 1195 01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:35,240 Speaker 1: Like it kind of sucks. It's like if the worst 1196 01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:37,160 Speaker 1: thing you've ever been through you want to make some 1197 01:10:37,240 --> 01:10:39,840 Speaker 1: sort of artistic expression of that, and then you're like, 1198 01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:43,439 Speaker 1: but I have to make it really fucking obvious or 1199 01:10:43,800 --> 01:10:46,200 Speaker 1: people are gonna think I'm endorsing the worst thing that's 1200 01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:48,679 Speaker 1: ever happened to me. Like it's such a catch twenty 1201 01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:56,919 Speaker 1: two of the Like, it's really frustrating. It's really frustrating. 1202 01:10:56,960 --> 01:11:00,120 Speaker 1: Like I don't think it's necessarily like I think you 1203 01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:04,120 Speaker 1: can hold Casey Lemons personally accountable for allowing that scene 1204 01:11:04,160 --> 01:11:07,920 Speaker 1: to be shot and that that is like ultimately on her, 1205 01:11:08,240 --> 01:11:13,080 Speaker 1: but in terms of how people misinterpret her work when 1206 01:11:13,120 --> 01:11:16,760 Speaker 1: all the answers are there, like I mean, it's like 1207 01:11:16,800 --> 01:11:19,639 Speaker 1: I think that it is, like it would be better 1208 01:11:19,720 --> 01:11:22,639 Speaker 1: served if it were made extremely clear. But I also 1209 01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:24,960 Speaker 1: don't want to be like, and Casey Lemons is wrong 1210 01:11:25,720 --> 01:11:29,840 Speaker 1: for not having done that, because it's like she clearly knows, 1211 01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:31,960 Speaker 1: you know, like she gave us all the you know, 1212 01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:33,760 Speaker 1: it's like what if? What was that? What was that 1213 01:11:33,880 --> 01:11:36,720 Speaker 1: ridiculous movie? That's like Mr Policeman, I gave you all 1214 01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:41,240 Speaker 1: the clues. That's literally Casey Lemons in this script like 1215 01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:44,880 Speaker 1: she gave you all the clues, you did not solve 1216 01:11:44,960 --> 01:11:52,360 Speaker 1: the case. And that is on society, right, Like, yeah, 1217 01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:56,040 Speaker 1: well how about this. Let's take a quick break and 1218 01:11:56,680 --> 01:12:07,080 Speaker 1: really collect ourselves and will come back for more and 1219 01:12:07,160 --> 01:12:14,240 Speaker 1: we're back, all right, where shall we pivot? I know, 1220 01:12:14,320 --> 01:12:17,400 Speaker 1: I feel poorn, Jamie. It's like all childhood, all talking 1221 01:12:17,400 --> 01:12:20,320 Speaker 1: about childhood sexual assault all the time for you, now right, 1222 01:12:22,120 --> 01:12:26,200 Speaker 1: it is my new area of expertise. I hate it. 1223 01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:29,040 Speaker 1: But but there's so much else to talk about with 1224 01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:34,880 Speaker 1: this movie as well. Yes, where should we start? Well, 1225 01:12:35,120 --> 01:12:38,920 Speaker 1: first of all, one thing that is very much worth 1226 01:12:38,960 --> 01:12:43,599 Speaker 1: noting is that this is a coming of age story 1227 01:12:43,720 --> 01:12:47,240 Speaker 1: for a black girl, which is something that we almost 1228 01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:51,639 Speaker 1: never see in Hollywood cinema. It is a kind of 1229 01:12:51,720 --> 01:12:56,120 Speaker 1: narrative arc that is reserved almost exclusively for white children. 1230 01:12:56,880 --> 01:13:00,120 Speaker 1: So the fact that a black girl is the focus 1231 01:13:00,520 --> 01:13:05,040 Speaker 1: is awesome. That it is a story fraught with such 1232 01:13:05,360 --> 01:13:11,800 Speaker 1: like turmoil and trauma is I guess what I'm saying 1233 01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:14,360 Speaker 1: is I would love to see more coming of age 1234 01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:20,000 Speaker 1: stories about black indigenous people of color that are less 1235 01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:26,640 Speaker 1: steeped in so much trauma and are focused on more, 1236 01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:29,160 Speaker 1: you know, some of the more joyous aspects of coming 1237 01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:33,280 Speaker 1: of age. But even so, um, this is kind of 1238 01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:35,840 Speaker 1: a monumental film, and that it is one of the 1239 01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:40,320 Speaker 1: few coming of age stories about a black girl and 1240 01:13:40,360 --> 01:13:43,800 Speaker 1: black children. So yeah, and I think, like, you know, 1241 01:13:43,840 --> 01:13:46,719 Speaker 1: we've talked a lot about some of the heavier aspects 1242 01:13:46,720 --> 01:13:50,200 Speaker 1: of this film, but there are you know, the film 1243 01:13:50,240 --> 01:13:54,080 Speaker 1: it's not it's not entirely heavy, right, Like Eve has 1244 01:13:54,120 --> 01:13:57,200 Speaker 1: a good relationship with her sister and brother. You get 1245 01:13:57,240 --> 01:14:00,680 Speaker 1: to see, like there are some scenes of Sicily and 1246 01:14:00,720 --> 01:14:03,080 Speaker 1: Eve interacting that I that I really liked. It's like, 1247 01:14:03,080 --> 01:14:05,720 Speaker 1: oh you get you get to see like the tenderness 1248 01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:08,599 Speaker 1: of girlhood when she puts the snake on her brother 1249 01:14:08,720 --> 01:14:12,680 Speaker 1: post pillow, like you get to see the like, you know, mischievousness. Yes, 1250 01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:16,080 Speaker 1: it's like you know, I there there were parts of 1251 01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:17,880 Speaker 1: it that I thought were nice to be depicted. Also, 1252 01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:22,680 Speaker 1: it's like, I mean, I'm a sucker for like Louisiana 1253 01:14:22,960 --> 01:14:26,559 Speaker 1: kind of that like like languid, like you know, oh 1254 01:14:26,760 --> 01:14:29,439 Speaker 1: like the Bayou and the and the Weeping Willows. Like 1255 01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:34,080 Speaker 1: it's quite a picturesque movie, and like it it depicts 1256 01:14:34,120 --> 01:14:36,600 Speaker 1: the outdoors in a really beautiful way. And like, we 1257 01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:40,040 Speaker 1: don't get a lot of movies where it's about black 1258 01:14:40,080 --> 01:14:43,479 Speaker 1: girlhood on the backdrop of outdoor beauty. That's something that 1259 01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:46,240 Speaker 1: like I love and you don't get a lot of. Um, 1260 01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:48,320 Speaker 1: So this movie, there is a lot of like in 1261 01:14:48,640 --> 01:14:51,400 Speaker 1: addition to the heavier aspects of it that we've talked about, 1262 01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:54,400 Speaker 1: there is some like joy, There is some like beauty, 1263 01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:55,800 Speaker 1: you know what. I think it really does a nice 1264 01:14:55,880 --> 01:14:59,120 Speaker 1: job of depicting some elements of black girlhood that we 1265 01:14:59,160 --> 01:15:03,080 Speaker 1: don't necessarily to see explored on screen very often. For sure. Yeah, 1266 01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:06,000 Speaker 1: there are those scenes that like are scenes of levity 1267 01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:09,280 Speaker 1: I love and are probably my favorite scenes in the movie, 1268 01:15:09,360 --> 01:15:12,280 Speaker 1: especially that kind of chunk where they're all cooped up 1269 01:15:12,320 --> 01:15:15,760 Speaker 1: in the house and everyone's just like playing pranks on 1270 01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:20,479 Speaker 1: each other or um again, that scene where Eve is 1271 01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:25,080 Speaker 1: just sort of lashing out and yelling at everyone. And yeah, 1272 01:15:25,120 --> 01:15:26,920 Speaker 1: like you said, I mean, you see these really interesting 1273 01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:31,679 Speaker 1: relationships between women and girls. You see this relationship between 1274 01:15:31,720 --> 01:15:36,280 Speaker 1: the two sisters, You see mother daughter relationships. You see 1275 01:15:36,400 --> 01:15:42,000 Speaker 1: even her aunt Moselle, all these female relationships being explored 1276 01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:45,200 Speaker 1: again in a way that like most movies don't bother 1277 01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:50,559 Speaker 1: And with Eve specifically, I mean, she's just like a 1278 01:15:50,880 --> 01:15:55,080 Speaker 1: really cool character. I feel like it's like people very 1279 01:15:55,160 --> 01:15:57,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, writers really often kind of missed the 1280 01:15:57,040 --> 01:16:01,120 Speaker 1: mark on like making a highly motivated and like fun 1281 01:16:01,680 --> 01:16:05,759 Speaker 1: child character who was also clearly constricted by the limits 1282 01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:08,840 Speaker 1: that childhood imposes on you. And I feel like the 1283 01:16:08,880 --> 01:16:11,920 Speaker 1: way that Casey Lemon's rights, Eve really like toes that 1284 01:16:11,960 --> 01:16:15,360 Speaker 1: line in a cool way, because it's like even honestly, 1285 01:16:15,400 --> 01:16:18,439 Speaker 1: like when I first read the kind of synopsis of 1286 01:16:18,479 --> 01:16:21,680 Speaker 1: this movie, I thought this whole movie was going to 1287 01:16:21,760 --> 01:16:25,559 Speaker 1: be like Eve being successfully gas lit by her family 1288 01:16:25,680 --> 01:16:28,920 Speaker 1: that this never happened, and I was pleasantly surprised that 1289 01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:32,840 Speaker 1: she For the most part, it's like she retains her 1290 01:16:32,880 --> 01:16:36,360 Speaker 1: truth of what happened pretty consistently, and she is like 1291 01:16:36,680 --> 01:16:39,920 Speaker 1: frustrated and confused that the people in her life are 1292 01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:42,920 Speaker 1: trying to tell her it didn't happen. Like her dad 1293 01:16:43,120 --> 01:16:46,040 Speaker 1: immediately is like, don't worry, that was nothing. That was nothing, 1294 01:16:46,080 --> 01:16:49,200 Speaker 1: And then she goes to Cecily, which I honestly read 1295 01:16:49,240 --> 01:16:52,120 Speaker 1: of like Cecily probably not like I don't know. I 1296 01:16:52,120 --> 01:16:56,040 Speaker 1: I think with some of Cecily's storylines, I plugged myself 1297 01:16:56,080 --> 01:17:00,439 Speaker 1: into like big sister mode and thought, like, you know, 1298 01:17:00,479 --> 01:17:03,080 Speaker 1: if my little brother came to me saying that he 1299 01:17:03,120 --> 01:17:05,360 Speaker 1: had seen, you know, my dad doing something awful that 1300 01:17:05,439 --> 01:17:08,559 Speaker 1: I already knew about, I probably would you know, at 1301 01:17:08,600 --> 01:17:10,800 Speaker 1: that age, would have like defaulted to be like no, 1302 01:17:10,800 --> 01:17:12,880 Speaker 1: no, no no, no, no, no, don't worry, because you don't 1303 01:17:12,920 --> 01:17:15,280 Speaker 1: want your younger sibling to take on the same like 1304 01:17:15,760 --> 01:17:18,920 Speaker 1: psychic weight of how funked up your parents are that 1305 01:17:19,000 --> 01:17:22,839 Speaker 1: you do. And so it's like, but Eve still knows 1306 01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:26,719 Speaker 1: pretty consistently, like she tells the same story every time. 1307 01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:30,280 Speaker 1: She's like, and it's more like I know it, I saw, 1308 01:17:30,400 --> 01:17:32,280 Speaker 1: but everyone keeps telling me it's not true. And the 1309 01:17:32,360 --> 01:17:35,160 Speaker 1: question is more like why is that? As opposed to 1310 01:17:35,200 --> 01:17:38,560 Speaker 1: like I must be wrong? Like I like how confident 1311 01:17:38,680 --> 01:17:41,920 Speaker 1: she is in what she saw, And it's like more 1312 01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:45,439 Speaker 1: navigating her confusion of like why are people avoiding this 1313 01:17:45,560 --> 01:17:49,639 Speaker 1: uncomfortable truth? Yeah, and she doesn't avoid it as soon 1314 01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:52,920 Speaker 1: as Cecily tells her, She's like, let's kill Dad, Like 1315 01:17:52,960 --> 01:17:59,000 Speaker 1: she like, let's set up kill him. It's amazing, Like, 1316 01:18:00,320 --> 01:18:03,960 Speaker 1: and I think importantly, you know, Cecily makes up that 1317 01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:07,040 Speaker 1: story of like, oh you know, uh, the the woman 1318 01:18:07,479 --> 01:18:09,639 Speaker 1: fell into dad and they were laughing, blah blah blah. 1319 01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:12,240 Speaker 1: And then later she's like, I I as soon as 1320 01:18:12,280 --> 01:18:14,640 Speaker 1: you said it, I believed you. You know. So you know, 1321 01:18:14,720 --> 01:18:18,840 Speaker 1: it's it's clear that like, you know, Cecily deep down 1322 01:18:19,120 --> 01:18:21,200 Speaker 1: know she's telling the truth. And really it is it 1323 01:18:21,320 --> 01:18:26,000 Speaker 1: is eves unfaltering ability to see the truth and speak 1324 01:18:26,040 --> 01:18:28,400 Speaker 1: the truth throughout the movie, and that you're right. It's 1325 01:18:28,439 --> 01:18:30,960 Speaker 1: important to note that she doesn't falter, that she's like, no, 1326 01:18:31,080 --> 01:18:32,800 Speaker 1: I know what I saw, I know what's going on. 1327 01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:37,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to continue to speak on it, right. Yeah. 1328 01:18:37,280 --> 01:18:39,800 Speaker 1: That that which kind of like brings to this the 1329 01:18:40,040 --> 01:18:45,800 Speaker 1: like the cycle of like gaslighting that it's I don't know, 1330 01:18:45,880 --> 01:18:48,200 Speaker 1: like the yeah, the cycle of gaslighting that takes place 1331 01:18:48,320 --> 01:18:50,960 Speaker 1: with the women in this family and kind of how 1332 01:18:51,120 --> 01:18:56,519 Speaker 1: that is structured it like I felt somewhat familiar to 1333 01:18:56,600 --> 01:18:58,960 Speaker 1: me in a lot of ways, especially I mean this 1334 01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:02,120 Speaker 1: has taking place in this sixties, right, So we are 1335 01:19:02,200 --> 01:19:04,720 Speaker 1: to sort of assume that her mother Roz, like there's 1336 01:19:04,760 --> 01:19:08,280 Speaker 1: not a ton of career options, there's not a you know, 1337 01:19:08,400 --> 01:19:11,760 Speaker 1: a lot of welcomeness to the idea of being divorced, 1338 01:19:11,800 --> 01:19:15,280 Speaker 1: of being a single parent, and like her autonomy is 1339 01:19:15,400 --> 01:19:18,840 Speaker 1: fairly limited by being married to this powerful man in 1340 01:19:18,840 --> 01:19:22,080 Speaker 1: the community, and she seems to be very aware of 1341 01:19:22,120 --> 01:19:26,519 Speaker 1: that um And so it's it's like broke my heart 1342 01:19:26,520 --> 01:19:28,439 Speaker 1: at all these different points in the movie to see 1343 01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:34,680 Speaker 1: these relationships between women kind of be like, I don't know, 1344 01:19:34,760 --> 01:19:38,760 Speaker 1: like passing on this generational guilt and this generational trauma 1345 01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:42,479 Speaker 1: onto each other because it's like, I don't know, I 1346 01:19:42,479 --> 01:19:43,880 Speaker 1: don't know. I was like trying to think of how 1347 01:19:43,920 --> 01:19:48,000 Speaker 1: to phrase this correctly, but I feel like at times 1348 01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:50,800 Speaker 1: like ros is a shitty parent. At a bunch of 1349 01:19:50,800 --> 01:19:53,799 Speaker 1: different points, she locks her kids in the house for 1350 01:19:54,160 --> 01:19:57,639 Speaker 1: no reason really. When Eve confronts her with the truth, 1351 01:19:57,760 --> 01:20:00,200 Speaker 1: she can't handle it, and so instead she punished as 1352 01:20:00,240 --> 01:20:03,519 Speaker 1: her kids who are trying to understand what's going on 1353 01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:06,160 Speaker 1: in their own household. But you know that it's coming 1354 01:20:06,200 --> 01:20:09,640 Speaker 1: from this place of deep trauma that she holds and 1355 01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:14,400 Speaker 1: instead of I don't know. It's just so hopeless in 1356 01:20:14,439 --> 01:20:16,800 Speaker 1: some ways because it's like, well, who could Ross turn 1357 01:20:16,880 --> 01:20:19,240 Speaker 1: to that could really help her, Like she knows that 1358 01:20:19,320 --> 01:20:21,280 Speaker 1: she doesn't really have anyone who can help her, and 1359 01:20:21,320 --> 01:20:25,400 Speaker 1: so instead like she's kind of to some extent protect 1360 01:20:25,600 --> 01:20:27,760 Speaker 1: that she I think she thinks she's protecting her kids, 1361 01:20:27,800 --> 01:20:29,880 Speaker 1: but in a lot of ways she's like taking it 1362 01:20:29,920 --> 01:20:33,439 Speaker 1: out and her kids. It's just I just really see 1363 01:20:33,439 --> 01:20:35,759 Speaker 1: the ways in this movie that the adults are making 1364 01:20:35,880 --> 01:20:40,360 Speaker 1: their traumas, their hang ups, their issues, they're just putting 1365 01:20:40,360 --> 01:20:42,559 Speaker 1: them on their kids, and they're really things that are 1366 01:20:42,600 --> 01:20:44,840 Speaker 1: just too heavy for their kids because their kids right 1367 01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:49,600 Speaker 1: right right, there's that scene to where Ros and Mozelle 1368 01:20:49,720 --> 01:20:51,880 Speaker 1: are like taking a stroll and then they like come 1369 01:20:51,960 --> 01:20:55,160 Speaker 1: up on that market. But before that, Ros is like complaining, 1370 01:20:55,240 --> 01:20:59,640 Speaker 1: like confiding in Moselle about her like crumbling marriage and 1371 01:20:59,680 --> 01:21:04,960 Speaker 1: how you know her husband who's unfaithful, and Moselle is 1372 01:21:05,040 --> 01:21:10,040 Speaker 1: just like, well, um just waited around, and you know 1373 01:21:10,120 --> 01:21:12,640 Speaker 1: one day he'll finally see what he already has and 1374 01:21:12,680 --> 01:21:15,120 Speaker 1: he'll stop chasing for it. And it's like that's not 1375 01:21:15,320 --> 01:21:17,960 Speaker 1: good advice. But I in seeing that, like I also 1376 01:21:18,040 --> 01:21:22,880 Speaker 1: believe that Moselle knows that's not true. Like I don't know, 1377 01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:25,560 Speaker 1: it's I guess maybe like this was my intern, but 1378 01:21:25,600 --> 01:21:28,920 Speaker 1: it just felt like most of the like the grown 1379 01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:32,160 Speaker 1: women in this movie were all pretty aware that like 1380 01:21:32,920 --> 01:21:38,280 Speaker 1: Louis was not a good father or a good husband, 1381 01:21:38,360 --> 01:21:42,000 Speaker 1: he was just a good provider. And then that was 1382 01:21:42,439 --> 01:21:45,120 Speaker 1: like there wasn't much they could do about it, and 1383 01:21:45,200 --> 01:21:49,160 Speaker 1: like it's just I don't know. It made me so sad. 1384 01:21:49,240 --> 01:21:52,879 Speaker 1: And and the relationship between Cecily and Roz as well, 1385 01:21:52,920 --> 01:21:56,439 Speaker 1: like I feel like speaks a lot too. Why Cecily 1386 01:21:56,479 --> 01:21:58,920 Speaker 1: reacts the way she does in some moments where like 1387 01:21:59,160 --> 01:22:04,160 Speaker 1: her attempts to rebel and challenge her her mom's pretty 1388 01:22:04,240 --> 01:22:08,200 Speaker 1: like irrational ways of dealing with her kids are met 1389 01:22:08,240 --> 01:22:11,920 Speaker 1: with like violence and like threats, like she is like 1390 01:22:12,080 --> 01:22:15,080 Speaker 1: hit by her mom. And then when it seems like 1391 01:22:15,160 --> 01:22:17,680 Speaker 1: ros might be trying to kind of like reconcile with her, 1392 01:22:17,800 --> 01:22:21,160 Speaker 1: she's like, I understand, like I see a lot of 1393 01:22:21,200 --> 01:22:23,880 Speaker 1: myself in you, but if you do something like that again, 1394 01:22:24,320 --> 01:22:27,080 Speaker 1: you're fucked. And it's like, well, then why would Cecily 1395 01:22:27,160 --> 01:22:31,360 Speaker 1: feel comfortable going to her mother with this abuse that 1396 01:22:31,439 --> 01:22:33,559 Speaker 1: she experienced, Like her mother's kind of made it clear 1397 01:22:33,680 --> 01:22:36,720 Speaker 1: that she's not open to hearing it, like she's very 1398 01:22:36,720 --> 01:22:39,760 Speaker 1: closed off and you understand why too. So it's just 1399 01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:45,920 Speaker 1: like ah, yeah, yeah, there's the scene when Roz slaps Cecily. 1400 01:22:46,479 --> 01:22:48,479 Speaker 1: You know, something that I think is important to know 1401 01:22:48,680 --> 01:22:52,120 Speaker 1: is that Cecily, you know, Roz has had all the 1402 01:22:52,200 --> 01:22:55,400 Speaker 1: kids trapped in the house, fucking version suicide style if 1403 01:22:55,400 --> 01:22:58,240 Speaker 1: they can't leave. And that's like what I was thinking 1404 01:22:58,280 --> 01:23:00,720 Speaker 1: the whole time. I was like minding me of the 1405 01:23:00,760 --> 01:23:04,120 Speaker 1: version suicide. Um, it's it's it's similar. Is there's some 1406 01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:06,679 Speaker 1: there's some interesting you know. And also I was like, oh, 1407 01:23:06,720 --> 01:23:09,080 Speaker 1: like shout out to that quarantine life. I know all 1408 01:23:09,120 --> 01:23:15,519 Speaker 1: about it. Um. But so so when Cecily goes to 1409 01:23:15,560 --> 01:23:19,080 Speaker 1: the hairdresser, this is just something that like I picked 1410 01:23:19,160 --> 01:23:21,439 Speaker 1: up on as a like black girl who was raised 1411 01:23:21,439 --> 01:23:23,880 Speaker 1: by a black mom. You know, in the whole movie, 1412 01:23:23,880 --> 01:23:26,479 Speaker 1: Cecily has very long hair, and when she goes to 1413 01:23:26,520 --> 01:23:28,200 Speaker 1: the beauty parlor, she comes back and her hair has 1414 01:23:28,200 --> 01:23:31,559 Speaker 1: been cut, And so I know that like that, like 1415 01:23:31,800 --> 01:23:34,920 Speaker 1: my mom and I have that exact same argument where 1416 01:23:35,400 --> 01:23:37,960 Speaker 1: I like, I think it is a symbol of a 1417 01:23:38,000 --> 01:23:40,759 Speaker 1: certain kind of black girlhood to have like long, straight 1418 01:23:40,800 --> 01:23:43,760 Speaker 1: hair past your shoulders. And Cecily being like, you know, 1419 01:23:43,840 --> 01:23:47,320 Speaker 1: I'm a I'm a I'm asserting my own body autonomy. 1420 01:23:47,320 --> 01:23:49,679 Speaker 1: I'm going to cut my hair. When she takes off 1421 01:23:49,720 --> 01:23:52,240 Speaker 1: that rain hood and her mom sees that her hair 1422 01:23:52,280 --> 01:23:56,240 Speaker 1: has been cut, that's like a that's like a shift, right. 1423 01:23:56,280 --> 01:23:59,160 Speaker 1: She's like, you know, this girl thinks she's grown. And 1424 01:23:59,200 --> 01:24:01,679 Speaker 1: I think like that is another part of the dynamic 1425 01:24:01,720 --> 01:24:04,559 Speaker 1: I think is there between them where Cecily is really 1426 01:24:05,160 --> 01:24:08,840 Speaker 1: trying to figure out what it means for her to be, 1427 01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:12,519 Speaker 1: like go from girlhood to like young womanhood, and her 1428 01:24:12,560 --> 01:24:18,519 Speaker 1: mom is clearly not able to shepherd her over that 1429 01:24:18,600 --> 01:24:20,400 Speaker 1: threshold in a way that you would want any you 1430 01:24:20,439 --> 01:24:21,800 Speaker 1: would want your mom to be. That's like what we 1431 01:24:21,800 --> 01:24:24,400 Speaker 1: were saying, like like her mom is not able to 1432 01:24:24,479 --> 01:24:27,000 Speaker 1: be there for her, not not open to hearing what 1433 01:24:27,160 --> 01:24:30,000 Speaker 1: she has to say. And I think that, Yeah, it's 1434 01:24:30,040 --> 01:24:33,559 Speaker 1: not surprising to me that Cecily would be completely not 1435 01:24:33,680 --> 01:24:36,120 Speaker 1: able to open up to her mom about what's actually 1436 01:24:36,120 --> 01:24:38,160 Speaker 1: going on in her life because her mom has has 1437 01:24:38,240 --> 01:24:41,160 Speaker 1: made it clear that what's important to her is not 1438 01:24:41,360 --> 01:24:44,320 Speaker 1: how her kid is doing, what her kids needs, It's 1439 01:24:44,360 --> 01:24:48,960 Speaker 1: about kind of trying to maintain some sense of order 1440 01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:53,760 Speaker 1: in this increasingly chaotic household. Yeah, absolutely, and the way 1441 01:24:53,800 --> 01:24:56,200 Speaker 1: that like I don't know that I thought that this 1442 01:24:56,320 --> 01:24:58,400 Speaker 1: was like this was like such a story of like 1443 01:24:58,680 --> 01:25:05,679 Speaker 1: women and girls processing guilt and like taking on so 1444 01:25:05,760 --> 01:25:09,360 Speaker 1: much guilt for things that it's like no, no, no, 1445 01:25:09,520 --> 01:25:12,400 Speaker 1: Like there's so many moments and I feel like it 1446 01:25:12,439 --> 01:25:15,200 Speaker 1: happens with by the end, it happens to Eve as well. 1447 01:25:15,240 --> 01:25:18,719 Speaker 1: But it's like, you know, Moselle is really guilt ridden 1448 01:25:18,760 --> 01:25:21,320 Speaker 1: for feeling that she is responsible for the death of 1449 01:25:21,800 --> 01:25:27,880 Speaker 1: her first husband when it's like she did not put Yeah, 1450 01:25:27,960 --> 01:25:29,680 Speaker 1: but I'm talking about the specifically the one that got 1451 01:25:29,680 --> 01:25:33,479 Speaker 1: shot in the joke, but like she Yeah, she's kind 1452 01:25:33,479 --> 01:25:35,439 Speaker 1: of taken on this guilt and it's like I am 1453 01:25:35,640 --> 01:25:38,200 Speaker 1: a murderer when it's like it is not ideal to 1454 01:25:38,320 --> 01:25:40,240 Speaker 1: she done your spouse, but that does not make you 1455 01:25:40,320 --> 01:25:43,240 Speaker 1: responsible for their murder, you know what I mean? And 1456 01:25:43,320 --> 01:25:47,000 Speaker 1: like there's that guilt. We see Raws take on guilt 1457 01:25:47,120 --> 01:25:51,040 Speaker 1: when Cecily becomes more withdrawn and it's like, is it 1458 01:25:51,120 --> 01:25:54,160 Speaker 1: because I did this? I did this? And in that way, 1459 01:25:54,160 --> 01:25:55,960 Speaker 1: she's kind of right because she did hit her daughter, 1460 01:25:56,040 --> 01:26:00,360 Speaker 1: But like it's just like you see every woman and 1461 01:26:00,400 --> 01:26:03,160 Speaker 1: girl in this story to some degree, whether they're right 1462 01:26:03,200 --> 01:26:05,120 Speaker 1: to be doing it or not, just take on a 1463 01:26:05,160 --> 01:26:07,320 Speaker 1: massive amount of guilt. And you don't see any man 1464 01:26:07,520 --> 01:26:11,120 Speaker 1: in this story. Like Samuel L. Jackson's whole narrative is 1465 01:26:11,280 --> 01:26:14,840 Speaker 1: his ability to deflect guilt and deflect the idea that 1466 01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:18,599 Speaker 1: he could do something wrong, where meanwhile he's surrounded by 1467 01:26:18,600 --> 01:26:21,600 Speaker 1: women who are taking on that guilt for him and 1468 01:26:21,600 --> 01:26:24,760 Speaker 1: then also taking on additional guilt for things that they 1469 01:26:24,840 --> 01:26:28,120 Speaker 1: have nothing to do with their own actions. Yes, like 1470 01:26:28,280 --> 01:26:31,080 Speaker 1: that one guy shoots Samuel L. Jackson, that's a friend 1471 01:26:31,120 --> 01:26:33,880 Speaker 1: of his. You never, like, you just never hear from 1472 01:26:33,920 --> 01:26:37,519 Speaker 1: him again. It's like, oh yeah, Like they don't even 1473 01:26:37,560 --> 01:26:40,960 Speaker 1: like explore it. That's why I'm really happy that at 1474 01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:43,880 Speaker 1: the end, Mozelle, who has taken on all this guilt, 1475 01:26:44,200 --> 01:26:50,120 Speaker 1: she meets her like long haired, jeans wearing painter lover 1476 01:26:50,479 --> 01:26:53,639 Speaker 1: who like, I'm just assuming all they're doing is fucking, 1477 01:26:53,720 --> 01:26:56,519 Speaker 1: and she's getting portraits of herself painted and like by 1478 01:26:56,600 --> 01:26:59,000 Speaker 1: the end she's like, yeah, I'm marrying him. I don't 1479 01:26:59,040 --> 01:27:01,439 Speaker 1: care what that that old witch said. I'm going to 1480 01:27:01,560 --> 01:27:04,080 Speaker 1: marry him, and like maybe we'll die together, like I'm 1481 01:27:04,080 --> 01:27:05,960 Speaker 1: happy that by the end of the movie she has 1482 01:27:06,000 --> 01:27:09,400 Speaker 1: had a trajectory where she's like, yeah, I can continue 1483 01:27:09,479 --> 01:27:13,320 Speaker 1: to I'm deserving of love. I can continue to seek 1484 01:27:13,400 --> 01:27:15,880 Speaker 1: out love and marry, marry a man who loves me, 1485 01:27:16,280 --> 01:27:18,439 Speaker 1: you know, and like spend the rest of my days 1486 01:27:18,560 --> 01:27:22,720 Speaker 1: like getting my portrait painted. I love that she like 1487 01:27:23,000 --> 01:27:27,320 Speaker 1: chooses joy at the end, and like almost I don't know, 1488 01:27:27,479 --> 01:27:29,559 Speaker 1: I kind of I would really be curious of like 1489 01:27:29,800 --> 01:27:32,760 Speaker 1: Casey Lemons thought about kind of that platfoint, but I 1490 01:27:32,800 --> 01:27:35,800 Speaker 1: felt like that's almost like a severing of this like 1491 01:27:35,880 --> 01:27:39,080 Speaker 1: quote unquote curse that it seems like a haunting this 1492 01:27:39,360 --> 01:27:43,800 Speaker 1: family when it's like, no, it's she's gonna assert what 1493 01:27:43,920 --> 01:27:47,400 Speaker 1: she wants. She's gonna like that's nice. I want I 1494 01:27:47,439 --> 01:27:49,960 Speaker 1: want the best for her. And I thought it was 1495 01:27:49,960 --> 01:27:54,680 Speaker 1: really interesting with Moselle as well, that I don't know 1496 01:27:54,960 --> 01:27:58,559 Speaker 1: she's like, first of all, like the performance by Debbie 1497 01:27:58,640 --> 01:28:03,519 Speaker 1: Morgan is like it's so good. But on top of that, 1498 01:28:03,560 --> 01:28:06,200 Speaker 1: like where I thought it was interesting that she is, 1499 01:28:06,479 --> 01:28:10,200 Speaker 1: you know, Samuel L. Jackson's sister, and to watch her 1500 01:28:10,240 --> 01:28:14,160 Speaker 1: it felt very like of this time that she is 1501 01:28:14,240 --> 01:28:18,360 Speaker 1: like kind of defensive about him, like if something comes 1502 01:28:18,400 --> 01:28:20,639 Speaker 1: up with him, whether it's from Ros, whether it's from Eve, 1503 01:28:20,880 --> 01:28:24,200 Speaker 1: whether it's from Sicily, She's always like, we're not talking 1504 01:28:24,240 --> 01:28:26,519 Speaker 1: about that. I can even believe you, and we're not 1505 01:28:26,560 --> 01:28:28,840 Speaker 1: talking about that. But then you find out at the 1506 01:28:28,920 --> 01:28:31,240 Speaker 1: end of the movie, you know it's not enough, right 1507 01:28:31,280 --> 01:28:34,960 Speaker 1: because she should be taking these women who she loves 1508 01:28:35,320 --> 01:28:38,639 Speaker 1: seriously and at their word over her brother, who she 1509 01:28:38,960 --> 01:28:43,400 Speaker 1: we know knows is an abusive person. How much power 1510 01:28:43,520 --> 01:28:45,799 Speaker 1: she has to stop it is kind of up for question, 1511 01:28:45,880 --> 01:28:48,799 Speaker 1: but like she could. I just thought it was interesting 1512 01:28:48,840 --> 01:28:50,400 Speaker 1: at the end that the movie kind of goes out 1513 01:28:50,400 --> 01:28:53,040 Speaker 1: of its way to tell you that there was a 1514 01:28:53,080 --> 01:28:58,000 Speaker 1: confrontation between them that where where Moselle said explicitly like 1515 01:28:58,439 --> 01:29:00,479 Speaker 1: how could you have done this to my niece? What 1516 01:29:00,600 --> 01:29:02,720 Speaker 1: the funk it? Like, it's clear that they came to 1517 01:29:02,840 --> 01:29:07,200 Speaker 1: blows about this, and then Moselle did believe Cecily the 1518 01:29:07,400 --> 01:29:10,600 Speaker 1: entire time, and that like, I don't know, it's it 1519 01:29:10,720 --> 01:29:13,920 Speaker 1: just like again, it just like felt familiar in a 1520 01:29:13,960 --> 01:29:19,600 Speaker 1: really frustrating way of like just how imperfectly and frustrating 1521 01:29:19,680 --> 01:29:21,439 Speaker 1: these things can fall out where you can like talk 1522 01:29:21,479 --> 01:29:23,240 Speaker 1: to someone and be like I don't think that person 1523 01:29:23,280 --> 01:29:26,000 Speaker 1: believed me, when in fact they may have, but they 1524 01:29:26,040 --> 01:29:28,240 Speaker 1: didn't know how to deal with it, and so then 1525 01:29:28,080 --> 01:29:29,960 Speaker 1: they go to yell at someone else and just like 1526 01:29:30,040 --> 01:29:33,000 Speaker 1: this whole I don't know the way that like trauma 1527 01:29:33,040 --> 01:29:35,200 Speaker 1: could be passed on through this whole chain of events 1528 01:29:35,200 --> 01:29:39,360 Speaker 1: and interactions and like it's all done so imperfectly, and 1529 01:29:39,560 --> 01:29:42,519 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's just also messy, but you also 1530 01:29:42,680 --> 01:29:46,080 Speaker 1: sort of at least can understand where most people are 1531 01:29:46,080 --> 01:29:51,439 Speaker 1: coming from, even if you disagree, Like, ah, but isn't 1532 01:29:51,520 --> 01:29:54,040 Speaker 1: that how it is? Like I mean that that quote 1533 01:29:54,080 --> 01:29:56,720 Speaker 1: that that Caitlin opened the episode with this like so 1534 01:29:56,960 --> 01:30:00,200 Speaker 1: is so spot on, Like isn't that how it is? 1535 01:30:00,240 --> 01:30:02,200 Speaker 1: Like there are so many things from my childhood where 1536 01:30:02,200 --> 01:30:04,920 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, like this thing happened, and you know 1537 01:30:04,960 --> 01:30:06,760 Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't like it, but you know, I 1538 01:30:06,760 --> 01:30:08,800 Speaker 1: can understand where they're coming I can understand why she 1539 01:30:08,840 --> 01:30:10,639 Speaker 1: did this, she was trying to protect me whatever. Like 1540 01:30:11,080 --> 01:30:14,560 Speaker 1: I think that when you go back and you deconstruct 1541 01:30:14,560 --> 01:30:18,080 Speaker 1: your memories that were so complicated and fraud I think 1542 01:30:18,120 --> 01:30:21,640 Speaker 1: that it's always like this sort of frustrating and unsatisfying, 1543 01:30:21,800 --> 01:30:24,920 Speaker 1: but but also kind of you can sort of see 1544 01:30:24,920 --> 01:30:28,000 Speaker 1: where they're coming from, if that makes sense. Yeah, I 1545 01:30:28,000 --> 01:30:30,960 Speaker 1: feel like I mean that's like I don't know, that's 1546 01:30:31,000 --> 01:30:33,120 Speaker 1: like I definitely feel that way about my parents a 1547 01:30:33,160 --> 01:30:36,840 Speaker 1: lot at the time of Like, God, I the execution 1548 01:30:37,080 --> 01:30:41,400 Speaker 1: was extraordinarily bad, but I can like acknowledge what they 1549 01:30:41,439 --> 01:30:44,320 Speaker 1: were going through while they were making those decisions and 1550 01:30:44,479 --> 01:30:46,920 Speaker 1: still think they were wrong for A, B and C. 1551 01:30:47,120 --> 01:30:49,960 Speaker 1: And just like that, especially the fact that this movie, 1552 01:30:50,640 --> 01:30:53,200 Speaker 1: you know, it takes place in the nineteen sixties, where 1553 01:30:53,200 --> 01:30:57,280 Speaker 1: like the power dynamics are even huger, and like the 1554 01:30:57,360 --> 01:30:59,960 Speaker 1: disparity of how much power these women would have had 1555 01:31:00,040 --> 01:31:02,240 Speaker 1: to get away from this guy. It seems like that there. 1556 01:31:02,280 --> 01:31:05,400 Speaker 1: You know, it's the only reason that Moselle is kind 1557 01:31:05,439 --> 01:31:08,080 Speaker 1: of like making her own living is because she doesn't 1558 01:31:08,080 --> 01:31:14,040 Speaker 1: have another option. M Well, that might bring us to 1559 01:31:14,160 --> 01:31:18,000 Speaker 1: a quick discussion on the way voodoo is represented in 1560 01:31:18,040 --> 01:31:22,799 Speaker 1: the movie. So we talked about this on our Princess 1561 01:31:22,800 --> 01:31:27,160 Speaker 1: and the Frog episode about how voodoo is often very 1562 01:31:27,160 --> 01:31:31,479 Speaker 1: wildly misrepresented in Hollywood, and that really extends to any 1563 01:31:32,120 --> 01:31:36,680 Speaker 1: African diaspora religion, but you know, voodoo is the one 1564 01:31:36,680 --> 01:31:41,280 Speaker 1: that is most popularly depicted in Hollywood. The representation usually 1565 01:31:41,360 --> 01:31:44,240 Speaker 1: paints these religions as being just like rooted in evil. 1566 01:31:44,439 --> 01:31:48,240 Speaker 1: It's like dark magic, there's violence, and the demonization of 1567 01:31:48,280 --> 01:31:52,360 Speaker 1: these religions has everything to do with racism. So I 1568 01:31:52,439 --> 01:31:57,280 Speaker 1: was like, I was curious about just like how voodoo 1569 01:31:57,360 --> 01:31:59,680 Speaker 1: in this movie is represented, because it's a pretty big 1570 01:31:59,680 --> 01:32:04,639 Speaker 1: compoe of the story we see practice. I don't know 1571 01:32:05,000 --> 01:32:10,360 Speaker 1: how authentic um the practices of voodoo are. I couldn't 1572 01:32:10,400 --> 01:32:17,640 Speaker 1: find any writing on how well Louisiana voodoo is represented 1573 01:32:17,800 --> 01:32:20,639 Speaker 1: specifically in this film, and I don't know enough about 1574 01:32:20,640 --> 01:32:24,120 Speaker 1: the religion to comment on it, but I did read 1575 01:32:24,160 --> 01:32:27,439 Speaker 1: the Casey Lemons said she didn't really do any research 1576 01:32:27,520 --> 01:32:32,960 Speaker 1: on voodoo before writing the movie, and it shove. I 1577 01:32:33,040 --> 01:32:34,720 Speaker 1: was like, it does. I was just like, yeah, I 1578 01:32:34,760 --> 01:32:36,760 Speaker 1: guess that this is like all it does seem kind 1579 01:32:36,800 --> 01:32:39,440 Speaker 1: of like off the top of your head, like rehashing 1580 01:32:39,520 --> 01:32:42,639 Speaker 1: of things that we've seen of like how how voodoo 1581 01:32:42,640 --> 01:32:46,920 Speaker 1: has been represented in other movies. Yeah, I honestly didn't 1582 01:32:46,920 --> 01:32:49,479 Speaker 1: do a ton of research on this end and kind 1583 01:32:49,479 --> 01:32:52,000 Speaker 1: of went in with the assumption that because I looked 1584 01:32:52,000 --> 01:32:56,200 Speaker 1: into like Casey Lemons is like back history of like, Okay, 1585 01:32:56,479 --> 01:32:59,640 Speaker 1: so I can't find any reason that she would know. 1586 01:33:00,320 --> 01:33:02,439 Speaker 1: And then I was like, I'm just assuming that it's wrong. 1587 01:33:02,439 --> 01:33:05,800 Speaker 1: Every time you see like voodoo represented in American movies, 1588 01:33:05,880 --> 01:33:07,720 Speaker 1: I just kind of I'm like, I'm assuming this is 1589 01:33:07,720 --> 01:33:10,479 Speaker 1: way off. But I don't know. I feel the same way. 1590 01:33:10,520 --> 01:33:12,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I couldn't tell you if this is like 1591 01:33:12,800 --> 01:33:16,639 Speaker 1: an authentic depiction of Louisiana voodoo. I'm going to assume 1592 01:33:16,720 --> 01:33:19,479 Speaker 1: not because it was nineteen seven, and I think that, like, 1593 01:33:19,920 --> 01:33:24,360 Speaker 1: you know, there are certain like visual signifiers that I 1594 01:33:24,400 --> 01:33:27,040 Speaker 1: think are there that I'm like, oh, yeah, she probably 1595 01:33:27,600 --> 01:33:29,479 Speaker 1: and like no offense to her. She probably was just 1596 01:33:29,520 --> 01:33:33,960 Speaker 1: like yeah, put her the like voodoo practitioner in a 1597 01:33:34,000 --> 01:33:36,000 Speaker 1: certain outfit and call it a day, right, Like there's 1598 01:33:36,040 --> 01:33:37,880 Speaker 1: that scene where she's got her face painted white, Like 1599 01:33:38,240 --> 01:33:39,800 Speaker 1: I think she was like, I want to have some 1600 01:33:40,320 --> 01:33:42,960 Speaker 1: clear visual markers so that people are like, yep, this 1601 01:33:43,040 --> 01:33:44,800 Speaker 1: is voodoo happening. I don't know that. I don't know 1602 01:33:44,840 --> 01:33:46,439 Speaker 1: that I would say that she went too deep into it, 1603 01:33:46,479 --> 01:33:49,679 Speaker 1: that's my read. Yeah, I would say at the very least, 1604 01:33:49,880 --> 01:33:53,040 Speaker 1: there are some things that the movie manages to avoid 1605 01:33:53,240 --> 01:33:57,200 Speaker 1: that we've seen play out in other movies where like 1606 01:33:57,520 --> 01:34:02,519 Speaker 1: Eve goes to Elzora and she's expecting in return a 1607 01:34:02,800 --> 01:34:08,040 Speaker 1: voodoo doll, and Elzora is like, no, that's not a thing. 1608 01:34:08,400 --> 01:34:12,160 Speaker 1: I did another thing to try to kill your father, 1609 01:34:12,280 --> 01:34:15,160 Speaker 1: but not a doll, because like, the voodoo doll is 1610 01:34:15,200 --> 01:34:18,360 Speaker 1: not an actual thing in the real voodoo religion, or 1611 01:34:18,360 --> 01:34:20,600 Speaker 1: at least not the way that is the way we 1612 01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:25,560 Speaker 1: see voodoo dolls in Hollywood. That's not accurate. And I 1613 01:34:25,600 --> 01:34:30,320 Speaker 1: at least appreciate that the way that Samuel and Jackson's 1614 01:34:30,400 --> 01:34:33,840 Speaker 1: character dies is because he gets shot by a man 1615 01:34:34,000 --> 01:34:38,439 Speaker 1: who was pretty explicitly or implicitly told that his wife 1616 01:34:38,760 --> 01:34:42,639 Speaker 1: was cheating on him, and not because like voodoo killed him. 1617 01:34:43,560 --> 01:34:46,000 Speaker 1: So at least the movie avoids those types of things. 1618 01:34:46,160 --> 01:34:49,160 Speaker 1: But it's just that Eve thinks that that's what happened, 1619 01:34:49,520 --> 01:34:53,080 Speaker 1: like they're even Yeah, I was confused. I was like, 1620 01:34:53,320 --> 01:34:57,200 Speaker 1: for a second, I like almost got galaxy brain about 1621 01:34:57,240 --> 01:35:01,160 Speaker 1: it because I thought, you know, it's like, okay, maybe 1622 01:35:01,479 --> 01:35:04,760 Speaker 1: it's like because you know, like there's a lot of 1623 01:35:04,880 --> 01:35:08,160 Speaker 1: people who present as like, oh, you know, like I 1624 01:35:08,200 --> 01:35:10,960 Speaker 1: am a psychic, and they're actually not, and they're kind 1625 01:35:10,960 --> 01:35:14,200 Speaker 1: of just like being touristy. I was like, maybe that's 1626 01:35:14,200 --> 01:35:16,160 Speaker 1: what Elsora is supposed to be as kind of like 1627 01:35:16,320 --> 01:35:19,200 Speaker 1: because that's what Moselle says. It's like, Oh, she's just 1628 01:35:19,240 --> 01:35:21,920 Speaker 1: like a tourist, Like she comes to the market. You know, 1629 01:35:22,040 --> 01:35:25,280 Speaker 1: she's a side show attraction because we see that misrepresentation 1630 01:35:25,880 --> 01:35:29,759 Speaker 1: all the time, kind of at any large carnivalry event 1631 01:35:30,520 --> 01:35:32,400 Speaker 1: of like this fraud. But then we're kind of led 1632 01:35:32,439 --> 01:35:35,880 Speaker 1: to believe that she is not a fraud. But then 1633 01:35:35,920 --> 01:35:38,000 Speaker 1: also I guess that was the question I left the 1634 01:35:38,000 --> 01:35:40,280 Speaker 1: movie with him, like was she a fraud or not? 1635 01:35:40,439 --> 01:35:42,640 Speaker 1: Because there were certain elements of her that kind of 1636 01:35:42,640 --> 01:35:45,040 Speaker 1: reminded me of like that scene in The Wizard of 1637 01:35:45,040 --> 01:35:47,960 Speaker 1: Oz where the wizard is going through basket while her 1638 01:35:48,000 --> 01:35:50,200 Speaker 1: thing is closed. Like sometimes I was getting that by 1639 01:35:50,320 --> 01:35:53,559 Speaker 1: but then other times I was like, is she a fraud? 1640 01:35:53,840 --> 01:35:56,920 Speaker 1: Like I don't know. I don't know, because she gets 1641 01:35:56,960 --> 01:35:59,639 Speaker 1: it right with ros right, she's like wait, wait a while. 1642 01:36:00,040 --> 01:36:02,160 Speaker 1: But if she doesn't need to wait three years, does she, 1643 01:36:02,360 --> 01:36:04,599 Speaker 1: like she well, maybe it takes three years for them 1644 01:36:04,640 --> 01:36:08,920 Speaker 1: to like just fully recover or like heal from their grief. 1645 01:36:10,280 --> 01:36:13,400 Speaker 1: It's like it's clear to us that Moselle and Eve's like, 1646 01:36:14,600 --> 01:36:17,400 Speaker 1: I don't even know, Like their ability to see the 1647 01:36:17,600 --> 01:36:20,759 Speaker 1: future is authentic, and that is like in text true, 1648 01:36:21,080 --> 01:36:23,880 Speaker 1: But I still was not clear on whether el Zora 1649 01:36:24,200 --> 01:36:28,320 Speaker 1: was legit or not. I wasn't sure. Let's also keep 1650 01:36:28,320 --> 01:36:31,800 Speaker 1: in mind that Elzora charges even twenty dollars to kill 1651 01:36:31,840 --> 01:36:39,479 Speaker 1: a man. That's I mean, come on, sixties money. I 1652 01:36:39,520 --> 01:36:42,000 Speaker 1: actually looked it up the the inflation it will be 1653 01:36:42,120 --> 01:36:46,840 Speaker 1: two sixteen dollars they're about today to kill a man. 1654 01:36:47,400 --> 01:36:51,280 Speaker 1: She grifted a child, Like yeah, what are the what 1655 01:36:51,360 --> 01:36:54,080 Speaker 1: are the ethics of her like accepting money from a 1656 01:36:54,200 --> 01:36:56,479 Speaker 1: literal child to kill a man? Like I just have 1657 01:36:56,520 --> 01:37:00,439 Speaker 1: a lot of time, It's it's murky, I would think. Yeah, 1658 01:37:00,560 --> 01:37:02,360 Speaker 1: I'd be curious of like listeners who have seen this 1659 01:37:02,360 --> 01:37:04,240 Speaker 1: movie what your impression was, because by the end I 1660 01:37:04,280 --> 01:37:07,640 Speaker 1: sort of felt like she's the Wizard of Us, like 1661 01:37:07,760 --> 01:37:12,519 Speaker 1: she only because the people who can genuinely see into 1662 01:37:12,560 --> 01:37:15,439 Speaker 1: the future to some extent, we are like told visually 1663 01:37:15,520 --> 01:37:18,160 Speaker 1: explicitly that that is true, and you don't ever get 1664 01:37:18,160 --> 01:37:22,519 Speaker 1: that for Elzaura. So I wasn't sure. I wasn't sure. 1665 01:37:22,560 --> 01:37:25,240 Speaker 1: I know that definitely, the presentation of voodoo is like 1666 01:37:25,960 --> 01:37:28,799 Speaker 1: off in this movie. It's definitely not like a faithful, 1667 01:37:29,400 --> 01:37:31,800 Speaker 1: you know thing. But but I wasn't sure if like 1668 01:37:31,840 --> 01:37:34,120 Speaker 1: we were supposed to go through this being like, oh, 1669 01:37:34,200 --> 01:37:37,560 Speaker 1: you know, Elzora is kind of like doing this touristy 1670 01:37:37,720 --> 01:37:42,760 Speaker 1: act that Eve believes because she's a kid. You know, 1671 01:37:44,600 --> 01:37:49,040 Speaker 1: she gave this woman two hundred dollars. Oh my god. Stressful. 1672 01:37:50,560 --> 01:37:53,400 Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm I'm curious to hear from any listeners 1673 01:37:53,520 --> 01:37:58,480 Speaker 1: who have a more in depth understanding of actual voodoo practices, 1674 01:37:59,200 --> 01:38:04,720 Speaker 1: just how you feel about this movie's depiction of voodoo. Yeah, Um, 1675 01:38:04,800 --> 01:38:10,519 Speaker 1: does anyone have any other thoughts on the movie? I 1676 01:38:10,600 --> 01:38:12,080 Speaker 1: wanted to I had, I had a few things. I 1677 01:38:12,080 --> 01:38:15,200 Speaker 1: wanted to just kind of shout out the team behind 1678 01:38:15,240 --> 01:38:18,439 Speaker 1: this movie that we do not. I mean, it goes 1679 01:38:18,479 --> 01:38:21,400 Speaker 1: without saying that black women writing and directing their own 1680 01:38:21,439 --> 01:38:25,760 Speaker 1: movies is such a huge I mean, especially just was 1681 01:38:25,880 --> 01:38:28,720 Speaker 1: not happening very much. And so in terms of like 1682 01:38:28,800 --> 01:38:31,719 Speaker 1: the background of this movie, you will not be surprised. 1683 01:38:31,720 --> 01:38:34,800 Speaker 1: It's like the I feel like, and this is true 1684 01:38:34,800 --> 01:38:37,639 Speaker 1: with female directors kind of generally you get a lot 1685 01:38:37,720 --> 01:38:41,280 Speaker 1: of that actor to director pipeline because Casey Lemons was 1686 01:38:41,320 --> 01:38:44,000 Speaker 1: already an established director and I feel like you an 1687 01:38:44,040 --> 01:38:47,280 Speaker 1: established actor or sorry, an established actor. Yeah, and then 1688 01:38:47,320 --> 01:38:49,639 Speaker 1: she doesn't direct her first movie to her late thirties, 1689 01:38:49,920 --> 01:38:52,040 Speaker 1: and I can think of like five women off the 1690 01:38:52,080 --> 01:38:56,200 Speaker 1: top of my head who that's true for right now. Um, 1691 01:38:56,280 --> 01:38:58,840 Speaker 1: and how like that is kind of it seems like 1692 01:38:58,880 --> 01:39:01,000 Speaker 1: the most not to say, I mean, there's plenty of 1693 01:39:01,040 --> 01:39:03,479 Speaker 1: female directors who that is not the case for, but 1694 01:39:03,520 --> 01:39:08,880 Speaker 1: it seems like the most efficient current pipeline for female directors. 1695 01:39:09,320 --> 01:39:12,240 Speaker 1: And that's where Casey Lemons comes from. And then she 1696 01:39:12,360 --> 01:39:14,880 Speaker 1: makes like animazing. But she was like an established actor 1697 01:39:15,439 --> 01:39:19,120 Speaker 1: who started writing and directing because she was dissatisfied with 1698 01:39:19,160 --> 01:39:21,479 Speaker 1: the roles she was getting as an actor, these like 1699 01:39:21,760 --> 01:39:25,000 Speaker 1: very you know, like oh, I'm the black best friend 1700 01:39:25,200 --> 01:39:27,960 Speaker 1: or I'm just like this kind of like sidelined character. 1701 01:39:28,600 --> 01:39:32,320 Speaker 1: And so she just took it upon herself to start 1702 01:39:32,360 --> 01:39:36,800 Speaker 1: writing stories from her own perspective, which is amazing. And 1703 01:39:37,000 --> 01:39:39,960 Speaker 1: I also every time I see the actor to director pipeline, 1704 01:39:40,000 --> 01:39:42,680 Speaker 1: I'm like, why can't they Why can't we just be directors? 1705 01:39:43,200 --> 01:39:45,800 Speaker 1: Why is that pipeline not available? That said, I'm very 1706 01:39:45,840 --> 01:39:49,559 Speaker 1: glad that Kasey Lemons was able to create all these 1707 01:39:49,640 --> 01:39:53,639 Speaker 1: like amazing media roles that she wasn't able to play originally. 1708 01:39:53,720 --> 01:39:58,799 Speaker 1: We also have a few different kind of rarities behind 1709 01:39:58,800 --> 01:40:01,080 Speaker 1: the scenes, which I feel like sometimes we get great 1710 01:40:01,080 --> 01:40:03,240 Speaker 1: representation in front of the camera and then behind it's 1711 01:40:03,280 --> 01:40:07,640 Speaker 1: like more white guys. Uh this. We have a a 1712 01:40:07,720 --> 01:40:13,040 Speaker 1: female cinematographer, Amy Vincent, who you have almost certainly seen 1713 01:40:13,080 --> 01:40:15,639 Speaker 1: a lot of her work. She did two of my 1714 01:40:15,760 --> 01:40:18,840 Speaker 1: favorite youth movies. She also did Jawbreaker and the Lemony 1715 01:40:18,880 --> 01:40:23,479 Speaker 1: Snaket movie. But she's a love job breaker. It's so good. 1716 01:40:23,920 --> 01:40:26,760 Speaker 1: We've got to cover Jawbreaker. Sometimes she's done. She's done. 1717 01:40:27,160 --> 01:40:29,200 Speaker 1: She's done a lot. More like she's like I think, 1718 01:40:29,240 --> 01:40:34,360 Speaker 1: one of kind of the iconic female cinematographers. Um, she's 1719 01:40:34,360 --> 01:40:37,160 Speaker 1: done a whole lot. She did I Hurt Huckabees if 1720 01:40:37,280 --> 01:40:40,840 Speaker 1: you care, I guess, uh, and Oh my God, and 1721 01:40:40,960 --> 01:40:43,760 Speaker 1: that horrible Seth McFarland movie, A Million Ways to Die 1722 01:40:43,760 --> 01:40:47,479 Speaker 1: in the West, So you know, she has a wide 1723 01:40:47,600 --> 01:40:51,920 Speaker 1: variety of things she's done. Um. We also have a 1724 01:40:51,960 --> 01:40:55,479 Speaker 1: black female editor, which is like I feel like there's 1725 01:40:56,360 --> 01:40:59,759 Speaker 1: of all the positions in Hollywood, they are overwhelmingly white 1726 01:41:00,040 --> 01:41:04,479 Speaker 1: as editor like may in fact take the cake. And yeah, 1727 01:41:04,520 --> 01:41:06,720 Speaker 1: there's a black female editor of this movie. Her name 1728 01:41:06,800 --> 01:41:10,439 Speaker 1: is Tara Lynn shop Share. I hope I'm saying that right. Um, 1729 01:41:10,479 --> 01:41:13,519 Speaker 1: she also edited Love and Basketball when they see us 1730 01:41:13,640 --> 01:41:16,080 Speaker 1: Secret Life of Bees, and like, there's all these like 1731 01:41:16,160 --> 01:41:19,400 Speaker 1: amazing projects in I think one of the like most 1732 01:41:19,439 --> 01:41:23,360 Speaker 1: white male dominated areas of movie. Love and Basketball another 1733 01:41:23,400 --> 01:41:27,479 Speaker 1: black classic, right, yes, that is a classic. So she 1734 01:41:27,600 --> 01:41:30,360 Speaker 1: seems like she's just, you know, kind of an icon 1735 01:41:30,479 --> 01:41:33,520 Speaker 1: in that field. Just like a lot of great representation 1736 01:41:33,640 --> 01:41:35,880 Speaker 1: behind the camera as well, and like the t I mean, 1737 01:41:35,960 --> 01:41:38,880 Speaker 1: everything in this movie jels so well. The and also 1738 01:41:38,920 --> 01:41:43,040 Speaker 1: I didn't know Kasey Lemon's studied cinematography in college as well, 1739 01:41:43,080 --> 01:41:45,519 Speaker 1: so you have to imagine she's bringing some stuff to 1740 01:41:45,560 --> 01:41:49,160 Speaker 1: the cinematography too. And it's all You're like, Wow, more 1741 01:41:49,160 --> 01:41:52,519 Speaker 1: movies should be made like this. There's also, um, it's 1742 01:41:52,520 --> 01:41:56,600 Speaker 1: a man, but a black composer. Terrence Blanchard opposed the 1743 01:41:56,640 --> 01:42:01,000 Speaker 1: score Jazz Legend and he uh guide but he plays 1744 01:42:01,040 --> 01:42:04,240 Speaker 1: the trumph and then he won an Academy Award for 1745 01:42:04,280 --> 01:42:06,400 Speaker 1: Black Klansman a couple of years ago. Oh that's right, 1746 01:42:06,439 --> 01:42:08,600 Speaker 1: That's why I know that name. Yeah, he and and 1747 01:42:08,640 --> 01:42:11,960 Speaker 1: then I guess he and I. He and Casey Lemons 1748 01:42:12,000 --> 01:42:17,000 Speaker 1: also wrote an opera together, or they were supposed to, 1749 01:42:17,000 --> 01:42:18,759 Speaker 1: and then COVID hit and now they're going to release 1750 01:42:18,800 --> 01:42:23,480 Speaker 1: their opera later. Like I love. I love when collaborators 1751 01:42:23,520 --> 01:42:25,200 Speaker 1: like working together and then they do a bunch of 1752 01:42:25,240 --> 01:42:28,240 Speaker 1: like weird ship Like I'm like, yeah, sure, write an opera, 1753 01:42:28,280 --> 01:42:32,280 Speaker 1: why not like Casey Lemons opera. I guess you know, 1754 01:42:32,600 --> 01:42:35,040 Speaker 1: if it's safe to see, I would see it. Um. 1755 01:42:35,200 --> 01:42:38,400 Speaker 1: So I just I was. I really loved just how 1756 01:42:38,800 --> 01:42:42,240 Speaker 1: like how my representation there was behind the camera, definitely, 1757 01:42:42,320 --> 01:42:46,240 Speaker 1: especially in those like those are like three very major roles, 1758 01:42:46,560 --> 01:42:48,080 Speaker 1: you know, what is it they called like the top 1759 01:42:48,200 --> 01:42:52,479 Speaker 1: like this this top six title card whatever roles, and 1760 01:42:52,520 --> 01:42:57,520 Speaker 1: like they're almost always given to white men in Hollywood productions. 1761 01:42:57,560 --> 01:43:02,759 Speaker 1: So yeah, that was awesome And for nineteen I'm like, okay, 1762 01:43:02,960 --> 01:43:06,759 Speaker 1: pretty good. The other So shooting started on this movie 1763 01:43:06,800 --> 01:43:12,240 Speaker 1: and Casey Lemons was either pregnant, gregnant, um or she 1764 01:43:12,320 --> 01:43:14,879 Speaker 1: had just given birth to her first child. I couldn't 1765 01:43:14,880 --> 01:43:18,200 Speaker 1: really figure out exactly what the timeline was there, but 1766 01:43:18,400 --> 01:43:21,280 Speaker 1: I was like, that is cool, because like society has 1767 01:43:21,320 --> 01:43:23,360 Speaker 1: this image of women that if like you're a mother, 1768 01:43:23,479 --> 01:43:26,519 Speaker 1: you especially like a new mother, or if you're pregnant, 1769 01:43:26,600 --> 01:43:29,519 Speaker 1: you can't work, or if you're a working woman, you 1770 01:43:29,600 --> 01:43:31,960 Speaker 1: can't be a mother. So like she was just like, no, 1771 01:43:32,120 --> 01:43:35,599 Speaker 1: like I'm going to make this movie and I'm also 1772 01:43:35,640 --> 01:43:38,640 Speaker 1: a mother and two things can be true. Love that 1773 01:43:38,720 --> 01:43:40,960 Speaker 1: for her. I think you're so right that we have 1774 01:43:41,080 --> 01:43:43,680 Speaker 1: this misconception that I a woman has a baby, she 1775 01:43:44,240 --> 01:43:45,960 Speaker 1: may as well just like crawl into a grave and 1776 01:43:46,040 --> 01:43:51,200 Speaker 1: die for a few years. Yeah, that's I didn't know that. 1777 01:43:51,200 --> 01:43:54,439 Speaker 1: That's really cool. Um. Yeah, the last two production e 1778 01:43:54,760 --> 01:43:58,720 Speaker 1: Slash reception things are no, it's about men, but I 1779 01:43:58,760 --> 01:44:01,400 Speaker 1: thought that they were interesting. They I think, as is 1780 01:44:01,439 --> 01:44:05,040 Speaker 1: also very common in this case woman and particularly like 1781 01:44:05,040 --> 01:44:08,040 Speaker 1: a woman of color making her first movie. She needed 1782 01:44:08,080 --> 01:44:10,320 Speaker 1: a very powerful man to co sign on the project 1783 01:44:10,360 --> 01:44:13,200 Speaker 1: before it could be made. So this project was kind 1784 01:44:13,200 --> 01:44:16,080 Speaker 1: of like languishing the script. It existed for some time 1785 01:44:16,080 --> 01:44:18,679 Speaker 1: and it wasn't until Samuel L. Jackson was like, I'll 1786 01:44:18,760 --> 01:44:22,080 Speaker 1: star in the movie, okay, and then you could get made. 1787 01:44:22,240 --> 01:44:25,120 Speaker 1: So it's like, you know, it's it's definitely not ideal. 1788 01:44:25,200 --> 01:44:27,639 Speaker 1: That's something that needs to keep changing. But I do 1789 01:44:27,880 --> 01:44:31,439 Speaker 1: like to see powerful men using that power to like 1790 01:44:31,840 --> 01:44:35,519 Speaker 1: bring new talent into the folds. And so that was cool. 1791 01:44:35,600 --> 01:44:38,519 Speaker 1: This was also this is kind of neither here nor there. 1792 01:44:38,600 --> 01:44:41,720 Speaker 1: I just was like genuinely really surprised because we are 1793 01:44:41,760 --> 01:44:46,200 Speaker 1: always talking about Roger. Yeah, I was like, because we 1794 01:44:46,280 --> 01:44:52,920 Speaker 1: have been dragging Roger Ebert NonStop correctly for years, because 1795 01:44:52,960 --> 01:44:57,000 Speaker 1: he just like sucks. He generally has no idea what 1796 01:44:57,120 --> 01:44:59,960 Speaker 1: anyone like, any story that is not for him explode 1797 01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:04,280 Speaker 1: at lee. He's like confusing, hated it, negative stars, hated 1798 01:45:04,320 --> 01:45:08,120 Speaker 1: it for losers. But uh in in kind of a 1799 01:45:08,760 --> 01:45:13,160 Speaker 1: shocking he'll turn here. Roger Ebert named this movie hit 1800 01:45:13,240 --> 01:45:17,800 Speaker 1: the best film of Wow. That that is surprising to me. 1801 01:45:18,000 --> 01:45:20,640 Speaker 1: That is very surprising to me because he I have 1802 01:45:20,720 --> 01:45:23,880 Speaker 1: my own feelings about him that I find not surprising. Yeah, 1803 01:45:24,040 --> 01:45:26,320 Speaker 1: I did too. I was like, wow, Okay, at least 1804 01:45:26,320 --> 01:45:30,479 Speaker 1: he's a Cathy Lemon stand. I Like, it's not you know, 1805 01:45:30,560 --> 01:45:33,960 Speaker 1: it's something. It might have been Chas Ebert his wife's doing. 1806 01:45:34,439 --> 01:45:38,320 Speaker 1: That might have been chairs. She's like, give me this 1807 01:45:38,360 --> 01:45:42,360 Speaker 1: one thing. But I wonder if his sort of championing 1808 01:45:42,400 --> 01:45:46,400 Speaker 1: this movie led to another fact about this movie, which 1809 01:45:46,439 --> 01:45:49,360 Speaker 1: is that it was the highest grossing independent film of 1810 01:45:49,479 --> 01:45:52,680 Speaker 1: nine seven, So I wonder if he was like ringing endorsement, 1811 01:45:53,000 --> 01:45:55,720 Speaker 1: like encourage more people to go see it, because it 1812 01:45:55,800 --> 01:45:59,080 Speaker 1: had a four million dollar budget and it grossed fifteen 1813 01:45:59,120 --> 01:46:02,080 Speaker 1: million at the box office, which again doesn't feel it 1814 01:46:02,120 --> 01:46:05,679 Speaker 1: doesn't sound huge, but for an independent movie, fifty million 1815 01:46:05,720 --> 01:46:10,040 Speaker 1: dollars at the box office pretty significant. Seven money too, 1816 01:46:10,080 --> 01:46:13,320 Speaker 1: Like that's that, Yeah, that's big. I do wonder, Yeah, 1817 01:46:13,360 --> 01:46:16,920 Speaker 1: I do, because I feel like, for all of its 1818 01:46:16,960 --> 01:46:19,880 Speaker 1: issues that we have talked about at length, at this point, 1819 01:46:20,080 --> 01:46:23,519 Speaker 1: I am surprised that this movie is not like that 1820 01:46:23,760 --> 01:46:26,719 Speaker 1: not everybody knows about it. It seems like a real 1821 01:46:26,920 --> 01:46:30,559 Speaker 1: like classic of its genre, and it does so much 1822 01:46:30,600 --> 01:46:32,759 Speaker 1: that not many movies are doing. And so I guess 1823 01:46:33,439 --> 01:46:35,600 Speaker 1: I was glad that Ebert pushed it. It just I 1824 01:46:35,640 --> 01:46:39,200 Speaker 1: don't know. Ultimately, I'm like, I just wish more people 1825 01:46:39,320 --> 01:46:43,719 Speaker 1: knew about this movie. I wish it was like more taught. 1826 01:46:43,840 --> 01:46:47,320 Speaker 1: I wish it was more discussed, like and I wish that. 1827 01:46:47,439 --> 01:46:49,920 Speaker 1: I think that honestly, it's the sort of thing where 1828 01:46:49,960 --> 01:46:53,960 Speaker 1: at the time had the fucking and I know that 1829 01:46:54,000 --> 01:46:56,680 Speaker 1: we're always like the Golden Globes are for losers, right, 1830 01:46:56,720 --> 01:47:00,919 Speaker 1: oscars are for losers? Like it almost call without saying, 1831 01:47:01,400 --> 01:47:05,360 Speaker 1: but being recognized in some way by those institutions does 1832 01:47:05,400 --> 01:47:08,080 Speaker 1: sort of, I feel like, have an effect on solidifying 1833 01:47:08,760 --> 01:47:13,400 Speaker 1: certain movies as movies worth remembering and movies worth recognizing. 1834 01:47:13,400 --> 01:47:16,440 Speaker 1: And I just wish that this movie had been recognized 1835 01:47:16,439 --> 01:47:20,200 Speaker 1: more by those institutions. And I wonder if if they had, like, 1836 01:47:20,920 --> 01:47:22,680 Speaker 1: would it be a movie that we would just be 1837 01:47:22,760 --> 01:47:25,800 Speaker 1: hearing more about now? Like, Yeah, I wish I'd seen 1838 01:47:25,840 --> 01:47:28,280 Speaker 1: this movie sooner. For for all of its flaws, I 1839 01:47:28,600 --> 01:47:33,599 Speaker 1: really it's doing so much that movies of its time 1840 01:47:33,680 --> 01:47:36,840 Speaker 1: we're not attempting. Well, if you'd grown up in my house, 1841 01:47:36,880 --> 01:47:38,559 Speaker 1: you would have had it on VHS and it would 1842 01:47:38,560 --> 01:47:41,599 Speaker 1: have been one of five movies like you a Little 1843 01:47:41,640 --> 01:47:47,320 Speaker 1: Cabinet that one could watch if they wanted the movie Cabinet. 1844 01:47:47,439 --> 01:47:52,320 Speaker 1: My mom had the fucking CBS Ron Perlman, Beauty and 1845 01:47:52,320 --> 01:47:58,160 Speaker 1: the Beast on VHS and talk about a classic, horny classic, 1846 01:47:58,240 --> 01:48:01,880 Speaker 1: Linda Hamilton's and Ron that we will not be covering 1847 01:48:01,880 --> 01:48:04,240 Speaker 1: it on the show, but boy have I seen a 1848 01:48:04,280 --> 01:48:08,639 Speaker 1: lot of it. Oh goodness, is is there anything else 1849 01:48:08,680 --> 01:48:12,920 Speaker 1: anyone wants to discuss I mean the episodes longer than 1850 01:48:12,960 --> 01:48:17,599 Speaker 1: the movie at this point, I don't Isn't that true 1851 01:48:17,720 --> 01:48:21,880 Speaker 1: of literally all of our episodes within the past two years. 1852 01:48:22,320 --> 01:48:25,240 Speaker 1: It's true. Speaking of which, my Chicken Run posters coming 1853 01:48:25,280 --> 01:48:29,479 Speaker 1: in the mail today, I'm very excited Ginger is on 1854 01:48:29,479 --> 01:48:34,400 Speaker 1: her way. Hell yeah, Uh, well, it probably comes as 1855 01:48:34,439 --> 01:48:37,439 Speaker 1: no surprise that this movie does pass the Bechdel test. 1856 01:48:38,200 --> 01:48:40,800 Speaker 1: Women are interacting. Women and girls are interacting in this 1857 01:48:40,840 --> 01:48:43,760 Speaker 1: movie with each other a lot, and the DuVernay test 1858 01:48:43,800 --> 01:48:48,520 Speaker 1: as well. Yes, indeed, Um, the female characters are talking 1859 01:48:48,560 --> 01:48:51,639 Speaker 1: a lot about men and a lot of scenes either 1860 01:48:51,760 --> 01:48:55,439 Speaker 1: like about Louis or about Mozelle's husbands. But there are 1861 01:48:55,560 --> 01:49:00,000 Speaker 1: still quite a few scenes that pass the Bechdel test. Yeah. 1862 01:48:59,840 --> 01:49:03,400 Speaker 1: I guess that brings us to our our nipple scale, 1863 01:49:03,960 --> 01:49:12,680 Speaker 1: where we examine the movie based on just intersectional feminism, 1864 01:49:12,680 --> 01:49:15,240 Speaker 1: and I think this movie is going to break my 1865 01:49:15,320 --> 01:49:21,479 Speaker 1: brain trying to assign it a nipple number. Um. I 1866 01:49:21,520 --> 01:49:24,680 Speaker 1: think I want to give it three or three and 1867 01:49:24,720 --> 01:49:29,040 Speaker 1: a half because, as we've discussed that, like, the information 1868 01:49:29,120 --> 01:49:33,280 Speaker 1: is there that allows for a pretty clear interpretation that 1869 01:49:33,560 --> 01:49:37,000 Speaker 1: Cecily is a survivor of abuse and that her father 1870 01:49:37,240 --> 01:49:40,000 Speaker 1: is an abuser, and I appreciate that this movie is 1871 01:49:40,040 --> 01:49:43,160 Speaker 1: trying to tackle this subject matter, and I think that 1872 01:49:43,200 --> 01:49:47,240 Speaker 1: the intent was to approach it responsibly. However, I do 1873 01:49:47,560 --> 01:49:50,040 Speaker 1: still feel that the movie ends in a way that 1874 01:49:50,120 --> 01:49:55,160 Speaker 1: allows room for interpretation and for a different reading, which 1875 01:49:55,200 --> 01:49:57,439 Speaker 1: again I think is a very dangerous thing to do 1876 01:49:57,880 --> 01:50:02,960 Speaker 1: in regards to child set abuse. That said, it's still 1877 01:50:03,120 --> 01:50:08,680 Speaker 1: an important piece of Black cinema and of cinema in general. Um, 1878 01:50:08,840 --> 01:50:11,439 Speaker 1: I don't know. Oh gosh, yeah, I guess three and 1879 01:50:11,479 --> 01:50:18,559 Speaker 1: a half and I'll kind of distribute them evenly to 1880 01:50:19,120 --> 01:50:24,920 Speaker 1: Casey Lemon's Journey, Smollett, Lynn Whitfield, Megan Good, Debbie Morgan, 1881 01:50:25,080 --> 01:50:30,880 Speaker 1: just just all the women in All Star. Yes, Yeah, 1882 01:50:30,920 --> 01:50:36,600 Speaker 1: so that's that I'm gonna go. I'm I'm tempted to 1883 01:50:36,840 --> 01:50:38,960 Speaker 1: I'm definitely doing it three and a half. I'm tempted 1884 01:50:39,000 --> 01:50:42,160 Speaker 1: to even go for a four. But I'm going to go, 1885 01:50:42,200 --> 01:50:43,800 Speaker 1: I think with a three and a half because I 1886 01:50:43,840 --> 01:50:47,800 Speaker 1: do agree that for its time is I mean, it's 1887 01:50:48,600 --> 01:50:52,080 Speaker 1: it's so hard, right because I think that in terms 1888 01:50:52,080 --> 01:50:56,679 Speaker 1: of talking about child sex abuse on screen, I feel 1889 01:50:56,680 --> 01:51:00,000 Speaker 1: like I can say pretty confidently that this movie does more, 1890 01:51:00,000 --> 01:51:02,920 Speaker 1: more than anyone was even attempting to do it the 1891 01:51:02,960 --> 01:51:06,200 Speaker 1: same at this time while also making a lot of 1892 01:51:06,240 --> 01:51:09,599 Speaker 1: this same fuck ups that movies at this time we're 1893 01:51:09,640 --> 01:51:13,000 Speaker 1: doing it. Is like, as far as I concert, like 1894 01:51:13,439 --> 01:51:15,439 Speaker 1: never going to be worth the risk to put a 1895 01:51:15,520 --> 01:51:20,080 Speaker 1: child performer in a position like that. I I feel 1896 01:51:20,080 --> 01:51:24,719 Speaker 1: a little differently about the ambiguity because I do feel 1897 01:51:24,760 --> 01:51:28,599 Speaker 1: like she gave us all the clues, Mr Policeman, and 1898 01:51:28,680 --> 01:51:32,160 Speaker 1: so I don't want to necessarily punish the movie for 1899 01:51:32,240 --> 01:51:34,800 Speaker 1: that because I do feel like Casey Lemons does give 1900 01:51:34,880 --> 01:51:36,960 Speaker 1: us all the information. I do just wish that like 1901 01:51:37,720 --> 01:51:39,439 Speaker 1: I guess we didn't even talk about this, But the 1902 01:51:39,880 --> 01:51:43,599 Speaker 1: line that I think was cross like crossed the line 1903 01:51:43,680 --> 01:51:48,639 Speaker 1: for me was when Moselle told Eve like your dad 1904 01:51:48,680 --> 01:51:51,559 Speaker 1: says he wishes he had gotten that last dance. That 1905 01:51:51,720 --> 01:51:54,320 Speaker 1: for me kind of crossed the line of like, so 1906 01:51:54,360 --> 01:51:58,000 Speaker 1: we're gaslighting beyond the grave? Is like for real? Like 1907 01:51:58,240 --> 01:52:01,360 Speaker 1: is that necessary? And so I do think that the 1908 01:52:01,400 --> 01:52:06,200 Speaker 1: movie gives Samuel L. Jackson's character more than he deserves 1909 01:52:06,320 --> 01:52:09,800 Speaker 1: in terms of ambiguity. I am, I don't know, I 1910 01:52:09,880 --> 01:52:13,720 Speaker 1: just for sure the conversation was not sophisticated enough in 1911 01:52:13,800 --> 01:52:17,479 Speaker 1: the general public then or now clearly for people to 1912 01:52:17,800 --> 01:52:20,840 Speaker 1: inherently believe sicily. I think if we were living in 1913 01:52:20,880 --> 01:52:25,799 Speaker 1: this fantasy world where we were as a society inclined 1914 01:52:25,880 --> 01:52:29,600 Speaker 1: to believe survivors, that a lot of the choices in 1915 01:52:29,640 --> 01:52:31,760 Speaker 1: this movie wouldn't bother me as much. And so I 1916 01:52:31,760 --> 01:52:34,880 Speaker 1: am like, I'm it's kind of confusing because I don't 1917 01:52:34,880 --> 01:52:39,800 Speaker 1: want to punish Casey Lemons or the art for society 1918 01:52:39,880 --> 01:52:41,800 Speaker 1: not being where it needs to be on this issue, 1919 01:52:41,880 --> 01:52:43,840 Speaker 1: but it isn't, and so I just don't really know. 1920 01:52:44,200 --> 01:52:48,360 Speaker 1: I do know that I really dislike the fact that 1921 01:52:48,400 --> 01:52:50,840 Speaker 1: the scene was filmed in the medium that it was 1922 01:52:51,640 --> 01:52:54,800 Speaker 1: everything else, I'm kind of like, I don't know, Uh, 1923 01:52:54,960 --> 01:52:59,559 Speaker 1: stories about generational trauma, I think are are really rarely 1924 01:52:59,640 --> 01:53:03,080 Speaker 1: done well and thoughtfully, and this movie kind of takes 1925 01:53:03,120 --> 01:53:08,040 Speaker 1: a lot of boxes in terms of like showing you, 1926 01:53:08,040 --> 01:53:11,040 Speaker 1: you know, kind of the effects of generational trauma and 1927 01:53:11,280 --> 01:53:14,439 Speaker 1: showing you like, yes, ros is wrong a lot of 1928 01:53:14,439 --> 01:53:18,160 Speaker 1: the time, while also showing her empathy in other moments 1929 01:53:18,160 --> 01:53:21,200 Speaker 1: in a way that felt really like, I mean, you 1930 01:53:21,240 --> 01:53:23,920 Speaker 1: can't ask for like a harder task as a writer 1931 01:53:24,320 --> 01:53:27,240 Speaker 1: than to show all of this stuff. I don't know. 1932 01:53:27,280 --> 01:53:31,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I've like I am genuinely, I'm just glad 1933 01:53:31,160 --> 01:53:34,280 Speaker 1: that Casey Lemons did it, and like for all of 1934 01:53:34,320 --> 01:53:37,560 Speaker 1: its failures, I feel like it's a triumph that it 1935 01:53:37,640 --> 01:53:39,720 Speaker 1: happened and that it was released and that it had 1936 01:53:39,840 --> 01:53:43,080 Speaker 1: this cultural impact, and I don't want to punish it 1937 01:53:43,160 --> 01:53:46,519 Speaker 1: for society being worthless. I don't know, I don't know. 1938 01:53:46,600 --> 01:53:48,800 Speaker 1: I guess I'm gonna go three and a half and 1939 01:53:48,840 --> 01:53:54,040 Speaker 1: I don't know how to feel h and broken. I'm 1940 01:53:54,080 --> 01:53:56,920 Speaker 1: giving all of my nipples to Debbie Morgan because she 1941 01:53:57,240 --> 01:54:01,439 Speaker 1: really she really did it with this one. Yeah, Bridge, 1942 01:54:01,520 --> 01:54:03,880 Speaker 1: what about you? I think I would put this. It's 1943 01:54:03,880 --> 01:54:06,559 Speaker 1: a tough call for me. I would say between three 1944 01:54:06,560 --> 01:54:11,040 Speaker 1: point five and four nipples. I say for the the heavy, 1945 01:54:11,160 --> 01:54:14,639 Speaker 1: you know, female lead talent both on camera and behind 1946 01:54:14,680 --> 01:54:17,880 Speaker 1: the camera, I think it's I can't go lower. Um. 1947 01:54:17,920 --> 01:54:19,120 Speaker 1: I don't know that I can give it a solid 1948 01:54:19,160 --> 01:54:22,439 Speaker 1: for but I'm some I'm somewhere in there. Sure cool, Yeah, 1949 01:54:22,560 --> 01:54:27,200 Speaker 1: I totally agree. Well, thank you so much for joining us. 1950 01:54:27,800 --> 01:54:31,080 Speaker 1: What a what a treat it's been, What what a 1951 01:54:31,200 --> 01:54:34,640 Speaker 1: memory this will be for all of us. Thank you 1952 01:54:34,720 --> 01:54:37,640 Speaker 1: for thank you for bringing us this movie truly. I'm like, 1953 01:54:37,720 --> 01:54:40,160 Speaker 1: I'm so happy that we got to talk about it. Yeah, 1954 01:54:40,240 --> 01:54:42,240 Speaker 1: it's it's I'm happy that this was on the agenda 1955 01:54:42,280 --> 01:54:45,080 Speaker 1: because I it's nice to have a reason to rewatch it. 1956 01:54:45,280 --> 01:54:48,000 Speaker 1: And it's just nice to have a throwback of kind 1957 01:54:48,000 --> 01:54:51,080 Speaker 1: of a time capsule, capsule of how we were dealing 1958 01:54:51,120 --> 01:54:54,360 Speaker 1: with representing black girlhood, black womanhood on screen. It's it's 1959 01:54:54,440 --> 01:54:56,560 Speaker 1: nice to look back to see kind of where we 1960 01:54:56,560 --> 01:54:58,200 Speaker 1: were at then and where we've come now. So I 1961 01:54:58,240 --> 01:55:04,880 Speaker 1: appreciate having the the reason to rewatch totally. Yeah, and 1962 01:55:05,000 --> 01:55:09,480 Speaker 1: UM tell us where people can check out your stuff, 1963 01:55:09,560 --> 01:55:13,880 Speaker 1: listen to your podcast, follow you on social media, etcetera. Well, 1964 01:55:13,880 --> 01:55:16,320 Speaker 1: thank you for asking. So if you want to hear 1965 01:55:16,400 --> 01:55:18,800 Speaker 1: more from me, please please check out my podcast. There 1966 01:55:18,800 --> 01:55:21,520 Speaker 1: are No Girls on the Internet on I Heart Radio. Um. 1967 01:55:21,680 --> 01:55:24,360 Speaker 1: Right now, we're doing this great mini series all about 1968 01:55:24,360 --> 01:55:30,240 Speaker 1: disinformation called Disinformed and really elevating some narratives around marginalized people, 1969 01:55:30,320 --> 01:55:33,440 Speaker 1: women of color, women, how we've all played a role 1970 01:55:33,520 --> 01:55:36,640 Speaker 1: showing up online and how we have gotten to this 1971 01:55:36,760 --> 01:55:39,400 Speaker 1: very kind of particular social and political moment that we 1972 01:55:39,440 --> 01:55:42,320 Speaker 1: find ourselves in. So if you're interested in that, please 1973 01:55:42,360 --> 01:55:44,480 Speaker 1: check it. Out. It's called They're No Girls on the Internet. 1974 01:55:44,680 --> 01:55:47,840 Speaker 1: And you can follow me on Instagram at Bridget Murray 1975 01:55:47,840 --> 01:55:50,840 Speaker 1: in d C or on Twitter at Bridget Murray. Yeah, 1976 01:55:51,760 --> 01:55:55,680 Speaker 1: and Bridget truly come back anytime. Oh it's been a pleasure. 1977 01:55:55,880 --> 01:55:57,520 Speaker 1: I'll be back y'all. You'll you'll will not be able 1978 01:55:57,560 --> 01:56:03,840 Speaker 1: to get rid of me. Ah wow. Well, you can 1979 01:56:03,920 --> 01:56:07,600 Speaker 1: check us out on Twitter and Instagram at Bechtel Cast. 1980 01:56:07,800 --> 01:56:11,920 Speaker 1: You can subscribe to our Patreon a k a. Matreon. 1981 01:56:12,080 --> 01:56:14,680 Speaker 1: Speaking of Chicken Run, I believe that episode will have 1982 01:56:15,200 --> 01:56:21,200 Speaker 1: recently dropped, among many others, and that's specialist classic Chicken Round. 1983 01:56:21,520 --> 01:56:25,240 Speaker 1: My goodness. Um, that's a patreon dot com slash petel Cast. 1984 01:56:25,320 --> 01:56:27,800 Speaker 1: It's five dollars a month and you get two bonus 1985 01:56:27,840 --> 01:56:32,840 Speaker 1: episodes plus access to the back catalog. Oh and you 1986 01:56:32,880 --> 01:56:36,320 Speaker 1: can also get T shirts I always miss my cue here. Uh. 1987 01:56:36,400 --> 01:56:38,360 Speaker 1: You can also get t shirts at t public dot 1988 01:56:38,360 --> 01:56:43,200 Speaker 1: com slash v Bechtel Cast. We have masks amongst other wares, 1989 01:56:43,520 --> 01:56:46,760 Speaker 1: so um, you know, log on in, see what you 1990 01:56:46,880 --> 01:56:56,120 Speaker 1: like and until next time. Just a memory now and 1991 01:56:56,200 --> 01:57:01,160 Speaker 1: it's it's it's imprinted indelibly on your brain through the 1992 01:57:01,560 --> 01:57:04,640 Speaker 1: m P three file. But bye a.