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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or sheh hawed us an email at trust Me pod

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Speaker 1: at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust me, trust for trust me.

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Speaker 3: I'm like a swat person. I've never lived to you.

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Speaker 4: And we never have a live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 2: belief and manipulation from two trash talkers I've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 5: I am Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: And today our guest is Cheryl Nichols. She is a

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Speaker 2: filmmaker and she is the subject of Freeforms new docuseries.

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Speaker 2: Keep this between us. She'll share how her high school

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Speaker 2: teacher groomed her when she was sixteen, isolating her from

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Speaker 2: those closest to her, creating an environment of secrecy, and

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Speaker 2: slowly testing the waters with emails that grew more sexual

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Speaker 2: nature until they began a relationship.

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Speaker 1: We'll also have a conversation about the societal expectations of

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Speaker 1: teenage girls, the patriarchal culture where she grew up in Texas,

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Speaker 1: how passing the trash keeps predators at schools from facing consequences,

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Speaker 1: and how Cheryl learned she wasn't the only one.

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Speaker 2: That's right, I really like her. I mean she's in

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Speaker 2: your group of friends, as we discovered later.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't even realize that it was Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: I know her, So took us till the end of

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Speaker 1: the interview for me to figure that out.

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Speaker 5: But she's freaking great.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, super super cool. Before we dive in with her,

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Speaker 2: I would love to know, Megan, what is the what

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Speaker 2: is the cultiest thing that's happened to you this week?

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Speaker 6: Oh?

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Speaker 1: This comes out of a Canadian Bible camp, which usually

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Speaker 1: you don't hear much out of those, but some man

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Speaker 1: started working there and uploaded a video of himself to

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Speaker 1: YouTube being like, I just gave one of the best

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Speaker 1: exorcisms of my life. The boy was twitching and bleeding

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Speaker 1: and finally free of his dema, and everyone.

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Speaker 5: Was like, oh my god, no, you just tortured him.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, did he get in trouble?

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Speaker 1: Yes, he got fired and the police are looking into him.

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Speaker 1: But his response is they said to me, we can't

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Speaker 1: have you casting out demons. We can't have you performing miracles.

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Speaker 1: That messes with the business we're running here. And it's like, no,

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Speaker 1: nobody's telling you you can't perform miracles. But you can't

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Speaker 1: just beat people and tell them that you're casting out demons.

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Speaker 5: You know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm telling him we can't perform miracles. To

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Speaker 2: be clear, he can't perform miracles. I'm pretty pretty sure.

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Speaker 1: If he can perform a miracle, I would love him too,

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Speaker 1: But this bullshit I'm okay with.

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Speaker 2: I just want to briefly mention because the whole angle

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Speaker 2: on this is about not talking too much about the person.

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Speaker 2: His name rhymes with Schmandrew schmadt. Okay, do you know

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Speaker 2: who I'm referring to? I do really the news a

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Speaker 2: lot this week, and it is a really fascinating phenomenon

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Speaker 2: that's come up quite a bit. His whole tactic is

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Speaker 2: to try to offend people as much as possible and

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Speaker 2: try to be as over the top as possible to

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Speaker 2: get more engagement. It does work, and like people being

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Speaker 2: offended by his objectively incredibly offensive statements and behavior. I mean,

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Speaker 2: he's beaten women, whatever, He's like a terrible person.

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Speaker 5: Yes, he's on the.

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Speaker 2: Run from the law in like two different countries. But

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Speaker 2: our outrage at him has given him more and more

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Speaker 2: and more of a platform, which is just something that

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Speaker 2: I think is super interesting, Like we should be outraged

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Speaker 2: at people like him, but at what point are we

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Speaker 2: actually contributing to making them these like large figures in

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Speaker 2: the culture.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the same shit as school shooters were, Like,

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Speaker 1: stop doing that, We're going to put you on the

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Speaker 1: cover of Rolling Stone.

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Speaker 2: Crazy and politicians too. I mean, that's a lesson we

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Speaker 2: obviously learned in the past few years, is that like,

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Speaker 2: even if what you're getting is a lot more hate

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Speaker 2: from a particular group, the point is to just get

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Speaker 2: people to watch. Right, The more you get people to watch,

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Speaker 2: the more just like, the bigger you become, the more

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Speaker 2: power and influence and the more of a platform that

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Speaker 2: you have. So where is that line between calling people

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Speaker 2: out who are horrible and don't deserve to, you know,

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Speaker 2: have a lot of people listening to them and actually

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Speaker 2: just ignoring them and not like increasing their power.

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Speaker 5: I don't know, it's bizarre. It's very strange.

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Speaker 1: I'm interested to see what happens with him after getting

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Speaker 1: canceled and if it'll matter and whatever, because.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't. I'm more interested in his criminal charge.

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Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, he's like it's going to keep it.

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Speaker 2: He's not going to stop doing, like he's gotten into

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Speaker 2: legal trouble in multiple places. I don't I suspect that's

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Speaker 2: not going to stop happening. So regardless of the cancelation,

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Speaker 2: I wonder if criminal charges affect someone's standing at all

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Speaker 2: or But probably not, right.

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Speaker 5: No, of course not.

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Speaker 1: I mean, did you see the most hated man on

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Speaker 1: the Internet yet?

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Speaker 2: No, I'm watching that this week. I'm excited.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's really good.

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Speaker 1: But I mean the more hated he got, the more whatever,

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Speaker 1: the more charges came against him, the more people loved him.

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Speaker 1: But I don't mean canceled by society. I just mean

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Speaker 1: like taken off, canceled from Oh.

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Speaker 2: He was removed from platforms, right right?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so so was Andrew. And I mean what

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Speaker 1: can you do at that point? You just kind of disappear.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I wonder, I wonder we'll see. I wonder what weird

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Speaker 2: platforms will end up on and in any case.

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Speaker 5: Let's keep an eye on that one for sure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And now shall we talk

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Speaker 2: to Cheryl.

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Speaker 5: Let's talk to Cheryl.

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Speaker 3: Okay, welcome, Cheryl Nichols.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for joining us.

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Speaker 4: My pleasure.

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Speaker 2: So you have this docuseries it's just come out keep

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Speaker 2: this between us on free Form. I've just been watching

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Speaker 2: it this morning, and it's very upsetting, but it's very

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Speaker 2: intensely personal in a way I feel like I don't

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Speaker 2: see very often in documentaries, And I guess, can you

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Speaker 2: just start us off by telling what made you want

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Speaker 2: to put such an intensely personal, intimate, challenging story out

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Speaker 2: there in the world like this?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? I think for me, the more personal story is,

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Speaker 4: the more relatable it is, and the more we sort

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Speaker 4: of can put ourselves in the position of the protagonist.

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Speaker 4: And so when I was originally like thinking about telling

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Speaker 4: the story, it sort of started with the Harvey Weinstein

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Speaker 4: thing and that story kind of coming out and I

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Speaker 4: immediately related to it. And as the Me Too movement progressed,

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Speaker 4: something that was missing was not only this kind of

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Speaker 4: phenomenon that I knew about, which was this widespread problem

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Speaker 4: of teacher student sexual relationships, but also a more intimate

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Speaker 4: portrait of what it is like to be groomed and

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Speaker 4: to be abused, to go through these experiences. And I

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Speaker 4: hadn't ever seen anything that was intimate. And so that's

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Speaker 4: the point that I decided that I wanted to make

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Speaker 4: something that I knew would maybe be challenging and probably

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Speaker 4: a long process. But I thought, if I'm going to

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Speaker 4: if I'm going to come out and tell my story,

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Speaker 4: I want to do it in the right way. And

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Speaker 4: that was the way that it seemed was the most

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Speaker 4: right for me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I loved that because there are lots of documentaries

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Speaker 2: about abuse and abusers, and without that like first person perspective,

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Speaker 2: it can be difficult to kind of really connect with

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Speaker 2: what that is, what that feels like. Walk us through

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Speaker 2: this a little bit. Like you were sixteen in Texas, right, Yes?

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Speaker 2: What kind of girl were you? What was going on

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Speaker 2: in your life?

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Speaker 4: I mean I was very precocious. I was like you

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Speaker 4: know those little kids who were ambitious. I kind of

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Speaker 4: knew what I wanted to do. I wanted to be

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Speaker 4: an actor, I wanted to make and so I was

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Speaker 4: always performing and I was a pretty happy kid. And

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Speaker 4: when I went into high school. It was a little

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Speaker 4: complicated for me because I always felt like I was

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Speaker 4: a couple steps behind all the rest of the girls.

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Speaker 4: I was kind of a late bloomer, and again, like

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Speaker 4: I was really this sort of ambitious kid, and so

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Speaker 4: I was auditioning for things in Dallas, and you know,

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Speaker 4: I was always like writing plays and doing things like that.

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Speaker 4: But I was also a cheerleader and I was very forward.

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Speaker 1: I was.

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Speaker 4: I did a lot of things at the school. I

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Speaker 4: was in student council. You know, I was always in

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Speaker 4: charge of of doing whatever homecoming float there was and

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Speaker 4: putting pep rallies together, and so I was very active

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Speaker 4: in that way. And you know, I was a pretty

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Speaker 4: good student. But the town that I grew up in

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Speaker 4: a little home is a very it's a sports focused school,

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Speaker 4: and so though I played sports, especially my freshman year

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Speaker 4: in high school, I never really connected with that world.

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Speaker 4: I was more of an artist and you know, a

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Speaker 4: little bit of a weirdo. And so when I was

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Speaker 4: in those those circles that you know, cheerleading and you know,

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Speaker 4: school spirit, I kind of always felt like an outsider.

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Speaker 4: And so I think that was kind of who I

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Speaker 4: was and sort of laid the framework for someone to

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Speaker 4: kind of come in and, you know, be who I

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Speaker 4: wanted them to be and tell me what I wanted

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Speaker 4: to hear.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, feeling like a late bloomer is something that I

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Speaker 1: kept reading people say for sure.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you know, I it's weird because I guess

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Speaker 4: I thought there was a particular kind of person, like

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Speaker 4: a person like me like that was a late bloomer

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Speaker 4: that would be susceptible to you know, being kind of

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Speaker 4: groomed by somebody like this. But especially in the last

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Speaker 4: few days, I've had so many women reach out to me,

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Speaker 4: a lot of women even from my school, who had

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Speaker 4: experienced similar things. And you're coming from all I mean,

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Speaker 4: it's like it's literally everybody, and wow, what's what's interesting

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Speaker 4: is you know I also have heard you know, I

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Speaker 4: never really thought about this as deeply, Well this happened

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Speaker 4: at my school. Oh, we always just made it a joke,

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Speaker 4: those kinds of things. Yeah, yeah, we never realized like

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Speaker 4: how you know, well I did, but you know, I

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Speaker 4: think in general, like society, we didn't realize like how

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Speaker 4: big of a problem it is and what it is

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Speaker 4: because we assign the child, the teenager with the responsibility

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Speaker 4: for this. How many times do we hear she knew

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Speaker 4: what she was doing? I mean, I'm still reading that

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Speaker 4: in stupid the comments sections of things about the show.

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Speaker 4: It's like people want to make this argument that sixteen

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Speaker 4: year old girls are somehow capable of you know, being

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Speaker 4: these like sirens or seductresses. Yeah. I think that's kind

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Speaker 4: of like why this this show is so important and

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Speaker 4: why it's kind of striking a chord for a lot

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Speaker 4: of people, because a lot of people have an experience

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Speaker 4: with this, but they they haven't really thought about it

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Speaker 4: in terms of like you know, use or a grooming.

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Speaker 2: I was talking to my boyfriend about this recently. Actually,

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Speaker 2: I feel like, so as a kid, I spent a

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Speaker 2: lot of time around adults, and I think I got

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Speaker 2: and around boys and I got really comfortable with like

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Speaker 2: acting like an adult. And so when I was quite young,

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Speaker 2: I was in relationships with much older people and there

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Speaker 2: were people who you know, tried to have inappropriate sexual

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Speaker 2: relationships with me. Stories for another day, But like I think, I,

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Speaker 2: you know, you tell yourself when you're that age, well,

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Speaker 2: I'm just really mature, and to the undiscerning I it

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Speaker 2: can seem like someone maybe knows themselves or like is

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Speaker 2: an adult in some way. But teenagers are good at

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Speaker 2: acting like adults, but that sometimes, but that does not

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Speaker 2: mean that they actually are.

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Speaker 4: No, And we have to find a way to unpack

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Speaker 4: this in a way and stop treating teenage girls as

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Speaker 4: like separate cases. Like a teenage girl needs space to

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Speaker 4: be who she is, whether that's immature or mature or

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Speaker 4: you know, if she wants to explore her sexuality. Whatever

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Speaker 4: a teenage girl wants to.

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Speaker 6: Do, she needs a safe place to do that where

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Speaker 6: she doesn't have to be aware of like you know,

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Speaker 6: older men trying to take advantage.

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Speaker 4: Of that or making some excuse about her being mature.

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Speaker 4: So that's why they were able to take what they

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Speaker 4: wanted from her. Right, it's a growth space. And if

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Speaker 4: a teenage girl is mature, that's her right. It doesn't

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Speaker 4: mean that suddenly like the school is a dating app

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Speaker 4: or you know, older men, it's just not. It's not

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Speaker 4: a dating spot. It's a place where she goes to

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Speaker 4: trust other people to become who she wants to be.

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Speaker 2: How did you first meet the teacher, Because when you

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Speaker 2: first met him, he was not yet a teacher, right.

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Speaker 4: No, yeah, he wasn't. His wife at the time was

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Speaker 4: a teacher at the school, but he would come and

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Speaker 4: help us in the theater department. He would help us

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Speaker 4: like do the plays and you know, give us notes

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Speaker 4: and things like that. So I met both of them

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Speaker 4: when I was fifteen.

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Speaker 2: And then he becomes a teacher. So I want to

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Speaker 2: talk about the grooming process. And we were actually just

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Speaker 2: talking about how weirdly we haven't really defined grooming on

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Speaker 2: this show yet, Like it's something that is in the

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Speaker 2: cultural lexicon and people talk about we've never clearly defined it.

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Speaker 2: Do you have a definition that you use, or like

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Speaker 2: kind of a list of what it entails.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I try not to do like a

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Speaker 4: book definition because I think, you know, it just depends

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Speaker 4: on the context. But I think generally grooming is a

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Speaker 4: set of behaviors that are used to slowly manipulate another

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Speaker 4: human being into doing what you want them to do.

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Speaker 2: It can include isolating and creating dependency, gaining trust through

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Speaker 2: secrets and attention and gifts. And this one is the

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Speaker 2: one that I think is really really important, which is

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Speaker 2: the desensitization to sexual topics and or touch, which I

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Speaker 2: definitely obviously see in your docu series. So that includes

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Speaker 2: like discussing sexual things, not like it's between us two,

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Speaker 2: but just like in general, like about you and your boyfriend,

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Speaker 2: or what do you think about this sexual act? Just

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Speaker 2: in general. You know, that's something that I didn't really

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Speaker 2: have words to articulate. But that is a part of grooming.

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Speaker 2: And also it can include grooming people around the victim

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Speaker 2: by seeming especially charming and helpful and kind. So that said,

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Speaker 2: can you describe some of the ways in which that

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Speaker 2: process happened with you?

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Speaker 4: Certainly it definitely happened in stages. I think the first

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Speaker 4: stage was the befriending stage, in which he sort of

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Speaker 4: brought me in and and made me believe that I

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Speaker 4: could trust him, like he was a trusted advisor. You know.

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Speaker 4: He would give me books and he would advise me,

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Speaker 4: like on my term papers and things like that, and

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Speaker 4: we would spend time. You know, he was very, very

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Speaker 4: loving and jokey, and so he made me feel like

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Speaker 4: he was an easy person to be around and that

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Speaker 4: I could trust him. He would ask he would say,

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Speaker 4: like you can talk to me about this stuff, like

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Speaker 4: I'm not like those other teachers, or I'm not like

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Speaker 4: your parents, like I'm not gonna you know, I'm not

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Speaker 4: going to judge you or whatever.

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Speaker 5: Oh how like enticing for a kid to Yeah, of.

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Speaker 4: Course, because like I said, you know, the the environment

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Speaker 4: that I grew up in was so specific and it

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Speaker 4: was not like I didn't feel connected to it. And

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Speaker 4: so he was very He was the opposite, Like he

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Speaker 4: was kind of a nerd. He was interesting, like he

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Speaker 4: had he liked movies and television and books and all

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Speaker 4: of these things that you know, I needed exposure to.

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Speaker 4: And so he kind of opened himself up and exposed

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Speaker 4: me to those things. And I think that was the

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Speaker 4: kind of befriending aspect to it. I think then once

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Speaker 4: the email relationship started and he said, you know, hey,

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Speaker 4: why don't we speak privately? He created this space where

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Speaker 4: it was just and I, which is like the very

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Speaker 4: beginning of the isolation. And it also started to incorporate

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Speaker 4: the the bits where you know, he would try out,

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Speaker 4: you know, sexual themes. You know, he would try things

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Speaker 4: out in the email. Oh you would never talk sexually

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Speaker 4: to me. Oh you would never say this to me,

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Speaker 4: would you? To see how I would react to kind

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Speaker 4: of like test the water, right, And I think that's

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Speaker 4: where the late bloomer thing comes in, because I think

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Speaker 4: there's a certain amount of like innocence that a person has,

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Speaker 4: like a girl has when someone speaking to her like that,

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Speaker 4: Like it feels kind of titillating and good, but you

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Speaker 4: don't actually like think it's going to go anywhere. And

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Speaker 4: I think that's where I was at at that point.

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Speaker 4: It kind of felt good to sort of speak with

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Speaker 4: a trusted person about these things that I'd been wanting

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Speaker 4: to speak and maybe didn't feel comfortable speaking about with

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Speaker 4: boys my age, but you know, they were he was

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Speaker 4: putting them out there, and so that started, I think

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Speaker 4: for me, where I started opening up sexually to him.

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Speaker 4: You know, I was able to start, you know, saying like,

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Speaker 4: oh maybe I would you know, or Okay, I'll tell

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Speaker 4: you this thing about me and my boyfriend or whatever.

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Speaker 4: And so then he started steering me away from the

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Speaker 4: boy that I was interested in that time and sort

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Speaker 4: of steering me more towards what he would you know,

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Speaker 4: what he wanted, which is he would say, you know, oh,

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Speaker 4: I'm so you know, I'm so jealous. If only I

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Speaker 4: were a teenager, then I would kiss you, you know,

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Speaker 4: things like that, and sort of implanting yeah, and you know,

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Speaker 4: when I was a teenager, those things felt very exciting

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Speaker 4: to me, and I knew that they were probably wrong,

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Speaker 4: but I didn't. I don't know, it's hard to describe.

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Speaker 4: I didn't. I didn't totally understand where it would go

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Speaker 4: or what it would mean. You know, I couldn't connect

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Speaker 4: myself to the consequences, and so right of course, I

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Speaker 4: think within that, there's like there's a part of the

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Speaker 4: documentary where we talk about these emails that happened during

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Speaker 4: the you know, the Christmas between ninety nine and two

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Speaker 4: thousand and I had a very dear friend who's in

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Speaker 4: the documentary, Katie Hall, and we had been friends since

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Speaker 4: I was a kid, like since we were eight, and

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Speaker 4: he essentially in those emails, kind of steered me away

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Speaker 4: from her, telling her that she was just jealous of me,

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Speaker 4: she was never going to be as like brilliant and

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Speaker 4: beautiful as me, and she was just jealous of like

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Speaker 4: me and my boyfriend, and he was really pushing me

359
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Speaker 4: away from her and anything about my mother. He would

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Speaker 4: say the same thing. Basically, what he did is like

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Speaker 4: what I think is probably like a third stage, which

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Speaker 4: is he isolated me from my support group huh.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 4: Once that was the case, like he could kind of

365
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Speaker 4: implant anything into my mind that he wanted to. And

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Speaker 4: he had given me Lolita over Thanksgiving, I think, and

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Speaker 4: so I had already read it, and so it was

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Speaker 4: something we talked about. And so there was like a

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Speaker 4: we started talking on these like private chats called we

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Speaker 4: called them. They were called icy back then, but they

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Speaker 4: were kind of like, oh aol instant message.

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Speaker 2: I remember, I SEQ.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was like our old way of texting, right,

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Speaker 4: And so we were essentially texting, and so we started

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00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,800
Speaker 4: communicating over the in this way, and you know, he

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Speaker 4: would just start, you know, we just started talking about

377
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Speaker 4: those things, and it became more and more sexual, and

378
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Speaker 4: it became more and more obvious that we were going

379
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Speaker 4: to have a kiss. And so once I was isolated,

380
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Speaker 4: and once I couldn't I didn't have a support system anymore.

381
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Speaker 4: I didn't have anybody to bounce all of this stuff

382
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Speaker 4: off of. So I was in the hall one day

383
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Speaker 4: and he handed me this poem. He was a he

384
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,399
Speaker 4: was a writer, and he handed me this poem. And

385
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,359
Speaker 4: this poem was we featured in the documentary a little bit,

386
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Speaker 4: but it was called Frustration. It starts the desk is

387
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Speaker 4: a wild, wide wooden bunker unknown, and it's about this

388
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:55,240
Speaker 4: desire he had for something that was beyond this impenetrable desk,

389
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Speaker 4: and I knew it was about me. Yeah, And I

390
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:04,360
Speaker 4: immediately became like jelly, you know, like I had never

391
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:06,600
Speaker 4: felt this way for somebody before, and they you know,

392
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,879
Speaker 4: id it had never been reciprocated, and it felt so

393
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,200
Speaker 4: romantic and it felt like a book, and it felt

394
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Speaker 4: like it was meant to be. And so very shortly

395
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Speaker 4: after that, I was at his house and he kissed me,

396
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,280
Speaker 4: and that was sort of the last thing, like who

397
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:23,240
Speaker 4: was I going to tell? Where was I going to go?

398
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,440
Speaker 4: I didn't have anybody to tell me this was weird

399
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,280
Speaker 4: or whatever. I only had him, Yeah, yeah, And then

400
00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:30,879
Speaker 4: you know, then it just then the story just kind of,

401
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:31,840
Speaker 4: you know, it's.

402
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,520
Speaker 1: Snowballs from that he had you talking anonymously, or he

403
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,240
Speaker 1: was like, don't how was he emailing with you?

404
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:42,240
Speaker 5: Or was he scared that I don't know, I don't know.

405
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,000
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, this is nineteen ninety nine, so

406
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:50,560
Speaker 4: I think he had a pretty good idea about what

407
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,760
Speaker 4: needed to you know, like in the first email, he's

408
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,679
Speaker 4: or second email he sends me it said, you know,

409
00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,840
Speaker 4: you want to change your name from Cheryl Nichols to

410
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:04,119
Speaker 4: something else, right, And so I did. And so there

411
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,719
Speaker 4: was an idea that you wanted to be, you know,

412
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,760
Speaker 4: writing from a different name. But and so we had

413
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 4: these code names and and one of the code and

414
00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,679
Speaker 4: we also these code names that were our nicknames. Like

415
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,920
Speaker 4: I called him monkey and he called me pony, which

416
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,719
Speaker 4: is why the show used to be called Dear Pony,

417
00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:26,639
Speaker 4: because it was the thing that he called me. And yeah,

418
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,600
Speaker 4: so I mean there was like we were just speaking

419
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,480
Speaker 4: over email, you know, we were we were saying those words,

420
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 4: but it was obvious that it was us. Like if

421
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,240
Speaker 4: anybody had seen them, I think that they probably could

422
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,959
Speaker 4: have figured out pretty quickly, you know how who it was.

423
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe it was more just him, like having you

424
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:50,199
Speaker 1: identify as someone else, you know, like not I'm not me.

425
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,360
Speaker 4: I don't, I don't, I don't know, you know. Yeah,

426
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,840
Speaker 4: I think that it was like a universe that we

427
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 4: could both exist in, you know that that wasn't the

428
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,199
Speaker 4: universe with like the rule and like, yeah, morals and

429
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:03,160
Speaker 4: ethics like.

430
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,360
Speaker 3: Boring old stuff like that, and I.

431
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 4: Have either one of those things now.

432
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 5: But same.

433
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:19,200
Speaker 2: So wow, he was still married through this whole period,

434
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 2: right yeah, I mean I imagine this all feels very exciting

435
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 2: and fun and like you're kind of special in the moment,

436
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 2: right yeah, I was torn.

437
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 4: I mean I knew I was hurting. I felt like,

438
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,879
Speaker 4: you know, I'm hurting her like she was my teacher.

439
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:41,199
Speaker 4: I loved her very much. But the story between he

440
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 4: and I was, you know, he would say things like

441
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,679
Speaker 4: people love more than one person in their life. You know,

442
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,160
Speaker 4: people can love more than one person, Like this is complicated.

443
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 4: I hate it too. He would give up some of

444
00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:01,159
Speaker 4: his you know, it seemed like he was he was

445
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 4: conceding a little bit that he was saying, like, you know,

446
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,159
Speaker 4: I know that this is wrong and we're guilty, but

447
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 4: I just can't help myself, and like that's some ultimate

448
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 4: validation that especially as a teenager who's you know, I

449
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 4: had never had sex. I'd not messed around with anybody really,

450
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 4: you know, I would never let boys do anything to me,

451
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:27,159
Speaker 4: Like I'd only kissed like two guys, and so I didn't.

452
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 4: I did never have that kind of validation, and it

453
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 4: felt really good, and so I was in conflict for sure.

454
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 4: I didn't think that it was okay or right, and

455
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 4: I didn't just feel like it was exciting, like and

456
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,679
Speaker 4: I think that's important because I think that's part of

457
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 4: this narrative of like, oh, girls know what they're doing,

458
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,639
Speaker 4: you know, teenage girl you know, yeah, yeah, Like we

459
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 4: treat them like they're viruses, and it's like, you know,

460
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 4: it's it's more complicated than that, because our little brains

461
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 4: aren't fully developed, you know, we're just experieneriencing the world

462
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,120
Speaker 4: as it comes at totally.

463
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 2: I remember when I was seventeen there was a much

464
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,919
Speaker 2: older man who kissed me, and it was like someone

465
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 2: my family knew, and I definitely felt like it was

466
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 2: exciting and I felt like I felt special when I

467
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,120
Speaker 2: would get attention from an older man because I felt

468
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 2: like it was validating my maturity in some way, like

469
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,439
Speaker 2: I perceived myself as someone who is like more intelligent

470
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 2: or some or something, so like attention from an older

471
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 2: man would almost be like, ah, yes, that is that

472
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,199
Speaker 2: is what I am. You know. Of course, in retrospect

473
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 2: it's like, oh my god, that is well, you know.

474
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,400
Speaker 4: It puts you above the criticism in a way, right,

475
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 4: like something you seek in my this is this is

476
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 4: just my perspective. I don't want to speak too generally,

477
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,399
Speaker 4: but I think something that I was seeking was like

478
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 4: being beyond reproach, because I felt like there were so

479
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,719
Speaker 4: many opportunities for me to be wrong or a slut,

480
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 4: or a whoreor or you know, a prude like I

481
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,919
Speaker 4: could be any of those things that they attached to

482
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 4: you as a kid, like as a teenager are things

483
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 4: that you don't want to be and you're trying to avoid,

484
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,679
Speaker 4: you know. So if you if somebody tells you that

485
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 4: you're above the fray, like you're intelligent, you're more this,

486
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 4: you're more that, then you can kind of live above

487
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 4: those stupid words that other people assign you because those

488
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 4: It was so scary to me to be a slut,

489
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 4: you know, it was like the worst thing that I

490
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 4: could possibly be. Now I'm like, hell yeah, like you

491
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 4: know what I mean, Like slut's right, But like I had,

492
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 4: I didn't have that kind of role model like I wasn't.

493
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 4: I didn't feel like I could be experimental or free

494
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 4: with my sexuality. So there was just like this open

495
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 4: wound that a person could just kind of poursalt on,

496
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:46,479
Speaker 4: and that was him, you know.

497
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, And what teenager, by the way, does not have

498
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,479
Speaker 2: an open wound of some kind, like you're still figuring

499
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 2: out who you are. Everyone is insecure at that age.

500
00:25:55,400 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 2: They're like it there. If somebody wants to manipulate you,

501
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,199
Speaker 2: like they're probably going to be able to find a

502
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 2: way to do it.

503
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 4: It is so fricking hard to be a teenager, Like

504
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 4: it is so hard, Like you have all these chemical

505
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 4: things happening to You've got all these adults that are

506
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 4: suddenly have an opinion about who you are. You've got

507
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,199
Speaker 4: to deal with all the kids around you having an

508
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 4: opinion of who you are while you're trying to figure

509
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 4: out who you are. It's insane. Like I just remember

510
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,719
Speaker 4: being so stressed out sometimes, like I would stay up

511
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 4: until three o'clock in the morning, even though I had

512
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 4: just to be by myself because I had and even

513
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 4: though I had to get up at five o'clock in

514
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 4: the morning, Like I didn't ever feel like there is

515
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 4: a space where I could exist. And that was part

516
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,439
Speaker 4: of why I just wanted to like get out, like

517
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 4: I just wanted to get out a little home. I

518
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 4: just wanted to get out of my house because I

519
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 4: just I just felt like I owed myself out to everybody.

520
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 4: And I think a lot of teenagers, even if they're

521
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 4: not super involved with the school, I think that a

522
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 4: lot of teenagers feel like that. I feel. I think

523
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 4: that they feel like they owe other people themselves. And

524
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 4: and then when somebody comes into your life and you

525
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 4: know they they're an authority figure and they can in

526
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 4: a way validate you in that way that you're seeking validation,

527
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 4: it's like it's so easy to just take it from them.

528
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 4: It feels so good.

529
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and men, I mean we are you know,

530
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 2: I certainly all of us at least grew up believing

531
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 2: that men are who you respect. You listen to men.

532
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 2: Men know what's best for you.

533
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 4: You know, Yeah, you're most of the pastors are you know,

534
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 4: we're I'm from Texas is a very you know, religious state.

535
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 4: Most of the pastors, superintendents, most of the school administration,

536
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 4: most of the administration are men. And then most of

537
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 4: the coaches are men. All except for one of my

538
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 4: basketball coaches or men like men, men, men, men, men,

539
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 4: men telling you what to do all the time, men

540
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 4: deciding Like I remember one time one of my basketball coaches,

541
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 4: I was like on my period and it was like

542
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 4: I was really heavy and I was like still cramping,

543
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,239
Speaker 4: and I just did not want to sprint, and I

544
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 4: was like, hey, man, like I need to sit down.

545
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 4: I can't sprint. And he told me to just like

546
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 4: shove a tampon up there and that wanted to make

547
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 4: the cramps better. And I was like, oh god, it's

548
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 4: very basic things like that that don't seem like a

549
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 4: big deal, but like they train us to be a

550
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 4: certain way in our life. They train us to like

551
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 4: this is how you're going to interact with men for

552
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:26,959
Speaker 4: the rest of your life. This is how you need

553
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,439
Speaker 4: to interact from society, like in a way like just

554
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 4: shove a tampon up there and get over it. As

555
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 4: like a metaphor for like how wihold or experience the

556
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 4: rest of our lives. And yeah, you know, I mean

557
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 4: I think it's that starts when you're a teenager and

558
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 4: you're starting to come into that woman's body for the

559
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 4: first time, and people are starting to recognize you like that,

560
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 4: so they think that they can talk to you and

561
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 4: they can own you that way, and like that was

562
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 4: probably a huge, a bigger part of the impetus for

563
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 4: making this documentaries because I got so sick of having

564
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 4: this conversation with people like I got so sick of

565
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 4: being like, I know that you think that things are equal,

566
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 4: but they're not. And this is why it actually starts

567
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 4: back here. When we're teenagers. I had this experience. I

568
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 4: know a lot of other girls who had this experience,

569
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 4: and when they moved through their daily lives, they carry

570
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 4: this experience with them and this is how they interact

571
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 4: with the rest of the world. And so that was

572
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 4: also part of the of wanting to do the intimate

573
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 4: stories because I knew that I was that those threads

574
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 4: were going to be pulled when I was going through

575
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 4: like exposing this and like going and talking to people

576
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 4: who I knew growing up. I knew that we were

577
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 4: going to be able to see, like how it affects

578
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 4: people in their daily lives, how it to affects women

579
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 4: in their daily lives, and that was what was most

580
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 4: important to me.

581
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 2: So you and the teacher had a relationship for a

582
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 2: number of years, and people can watch the doc to

583
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 2: kind of see how exactly that unfolded and changed over time.

584
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 2: I'm the thing I would like to know is when

585
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 2: and how did the switch happened for you from thinking

586
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 2: it was a somewhat normal relationship to realizing it was

587
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 2: something much worse than that.

588
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 4: I think when he and I broke up, there was

589
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 4: a couple of years of we were still in kind

590
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 4: of like communication, but there was there were a couple

591
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 4: of years of me starting to wonder, like that felt

592
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 4: really bad. You know, I have a lot of shame

593
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 4: about that time in my life, but I was a

594
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 4: willing participant, so you know, I have to take some

595
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 4: responsibility for this. I wasn't in therapy yet. And then

596
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 4: in two thousand and seven, I found out that there

597
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 4: was another person that he did this too, at Little Elm.

598
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 4: And that is when I was able to realize that

599
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 4: I was able to see myself outside of myself because

600
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 4: I was able to see that person and what he

601
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 4: had done to them, and I saw it when I

602
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 4: knew that it had happened to that person. When I

603
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 4: found out that it happened and to that person, I

604
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 4: could see the grooming. Yeah, that's I think the first

605
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 4: time that I was able to start applying it to myself.

606
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: Just like giving yourself self compassion because you sigh yourself differently.

607
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I don't know that I fully grasped it

608
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 4: at that point. I mean, I think I was twenty

609
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 4: five or twenty four, so I don't think I totally

610
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 4: understood it. I think I still wanted to take a

611
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 4: lot of the responsibility because I'd been told my whole

612
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 4: life that, you know, I was responsible, and there are

613
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 4: so many people who still hold me responsible. You know,

614
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 4: it's not like that sentiment is gone, you know, now

615
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 4: that it's twenty twenty two, like a lot of people

616
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 4: would still hold me responsible or you know. So it

617
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 4: took a long time after that of really untethering it

618
00:31:54,360 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 4: and therapy and being reminded constantly, and also just telling

619
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 4: some people the story and and having people be like,

620
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 4: oh my god, I cannot believe that happened to you. Wow,

621
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 4: that happened at my school, you know, just things like that,

622
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 4: Like it took a long time for me to not

623
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 4: normalize it right and as what it was.

624
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 2: Isn't it funny how something can happen and you're like, yeah,

625
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 2: it was whatever it was formal, and then you say

626
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 2: it out loud to someone else and their faces go

627
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 2: white and you're like, oh, is that not Oh well.

628
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 4: I didn't tell people for a long time because I

629
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 4: was ashamed, and I was you know, I was in LA.

630
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 4: I was trying to be an actor and a filmmaker,

631
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 4: and I really didn't want this following me around. I

632
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 4: used to be terrified that if I ever like got

633
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 4: on a show or was able to like get a

634
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 4: movie out or something, that this would like come out

635
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 4: in the press and then desdraw me.

636
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 2: You know, Oh that makes me so sad.

637
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 4: I was worried about that for like probably seven or

638
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 4: eight years. I would just like I was afraid to

639
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 4: kind of reach my potential or become myself. And I

640
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 4: think there was a lot of like self destructive behaviors

641
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 4: that kind of came out of that, because even though

642
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 4: I had spent my entire life like trying to do this,

643
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 4: you know, and wanting to like move to New York

644
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 4: or LA and like pursue my dream, there was a

645
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 4: big part of me that felt like I didn't deserve it,

646
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 4: because if I did achieve something that, you know, it

647
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 4: would it would follow me around and it would destroy me.

648
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 4: And what I didn't know is that it was just

649
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 4: quietly destroying me. You know.

650
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 2: Part of the reason for the conception of this podcast

651
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 2: is because of a cult experience that my mother and

652
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 2: I had, and I remember she she was like afraid

653
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 2: to pursue her dreams for years because she was so

654
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 2: afraid that it would like somehow come out and destroy

655
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 2: And he actually made some explicit threat. So that's just

656
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 2: kind of a different thing. But it is amazing how

657
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 2: like the victims in a situation can think that somehow

658
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 2: having been a victim of abuse is going to be

659
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 2: the thing that ruins your career.

660
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 4: Yes, and I watched him, you know, find a new partner,

661
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 4: buy a house, get a PhD, buy another house, moved

662
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 4: to a place, become a professor, you know, like write books.

663
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 4: Like I watched him do all of these things, and

664
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 4: I was completely self destructive. I was in. I was

665
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 4: in like a real spiral for many many many years,

666
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 4: you know, and and and just just beating the living

667
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 4: shit out of myself. And you know, I finally, you know,

668
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 4: I finally got it together. And I, like I said,

669
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 4: like I went through years of therapy, I got on medication.

670
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 4: I was I pulled myself out of it, but it

671
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 4: took a long time. And I think that maybe people

672
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 4: don't understand why, you know, I think maybe people don't understand,

673
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 4: like why I went through all of this, and why

674
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 4: it was so hard and so much of it is

675
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 4: because of the way that I was. I felt that

676
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 4: people would see me. And so that's like part of

677
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 4: the thing that I'm that I'm really hoping can and

678
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 4: shift is that I'm hoping that we can create a

679
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 4: space where people can come forward and talk about this

680
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 4: and not and like not have this giant victim stain

681
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 4: attached to them, that they they feel like they can

682
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 4: talk about their experience and that they can move through

683
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 4: it and that they don't have to walk around with

684
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 4: that letter on there.

685
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't have to define your career, doesn't have

686
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 2: to define who you are as an artist or what

687
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,280
Speaker 2: you do with the rest of your are a good.

688
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 5: Or bad person?

689
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,479
Speaker 4: Yeah. Evening this documentary out, I was like, oh, god, man,

690
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,959
Speaker 4: like my movie's coming out, this documentary is coming out

691
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 4: like a month later, Like what am I doing? Am

692
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 4: I ruining my career? And then I was like no,

693
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 4: because no, because the point is that I am not

694
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 4: going to allow myself to be deterred from speaking out

695
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 4: and also from doing the thing that I want to do.

696
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 4: Because that was the whole reason that I didn't do it.

697
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 4: In the first place he was, so it it's important

698
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 4: to me to do both things and to be all

699
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 4: the things. So like mean, you know, I'm not allowing

700
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 4: people to like tell me not to have a sense

701
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 4: of humor about it or like whatever, like I am

702
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 4: who I am, I'm out there, and like, you know,

703
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 4: we need to be able to speak about this openly,

704
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 4: and then we need to be able to get on

705
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 4: with our damn lives and make omities or be secretaries

706
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 4: or you know, frickin be doctors or you know, just

707
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 4: be at home. Like we just need to be able

708
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 4: to be who you want to be.

709
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 2: There was the girl that you spoke to who said

710
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 2: it happened to her also, and then he was fired

711
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 2: also for another incident.

712
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,280
Speaker 4: Was that what it was at another school?

713
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 2: At another school? Okay, yeah, so this is this is

714
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 2: a thing this man is doing.

715
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think the statistic is a teacher is passed

716
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 4: to three schools before they are convicted of doing this.

717
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:59,240
Speaker 4: So I think that what I think that's the statistic.

718
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 2: Which is called passing the as you guys mentioned in

719
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 2: the doc.

720
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 4: Which is exactly passing the trash is the term for that,

721
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 4: which is when a school you know discovers that a

722
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 4: teacher has behaved inappropriately, and rather than report them, they

723
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 4: keep it quiet, and they the teacher usually resigns and

724
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 4: they pass them on to another school, and unbeknownst to

725
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 4: the other school, they hire the teacher. That's the sort

726
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 4: of that's the part of it that I knew, which

727
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 4: is that you know, I know that this happened, but

728
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 4: experiencing it, like speaking to the other people that this

729
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 4: happened to, is a completely different thing, because there's a

730
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 4: personal aspect of it that you feel betrayed. That I

731
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 4: felt betrayed on a different level, not like I had

732
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 4: already felt betrayed by him, but I suddenly, I suddenly

733
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 4: felt exposed because I felt stupid, like I felt duped.

734
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 4: I felt like he the same things that worked on

735
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 4: me worked for two other people and god knows how

736
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 4: many others, right like that there was a pattern that

737
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 4: I was susceptible to and that made me feel really stupid,

738
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 4: and it made me feel like my secrets were exposed,

739
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 4: and it made me feel like like I was standing

740
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 4: naked with a bunch of other people. And I think

741
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 4: that's the like, that's the first thing to get over.

742
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I was going to say, that's how

743
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: a lot of people explain when they realize they're in

744
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: a cult, which is what we usually talk about it.

745
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 4: So, which is why I felt like this was the

746
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 4: most appropriate podcast for me to be on, because I

747
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 4: often described what I experienced as like a cult like experience.

748
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 4: You know, there was a a harem essentially around him

749
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 4: of you know, girls and a few boys, but not

750
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 4: many that were you know, that loved him and his outreach,

751
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 4: like the circle that he created around himself, and the

752
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 4: fact that like he could do no wrong and like

753
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 4: heving us all music and books and things like that,

754
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 4: he was creating this like culture around himself, you know

755
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 4: that always seems very cold like. And also just the

756
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 4: things that he would say to me. Sometimes he would

757
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 4: say things like, you know, God has a.

758
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 5: Plan, oh no, no, stuff like that that.

759
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 4: I felt, I don't know, spiritual to me in a

760
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 4: way that I was kind of craving at that point

761
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 4: in my life.

762
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 5: And yeah, he's like very Willy Wonka.

763
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 4: From now. Yeah, he is like that. He's like the

764
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 4: Johnny Depp Willy Wonka, you know, the one who really

765
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 4: we needed. Yeah, Gene Wilder.

766
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly Johnny Depp Willy Wonka is like the biggest

767
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 2: insult I can think. I know. I mean, I'm sorry, Disney,

768
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 2: I love like, come on, the original is better. Got

769
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 2: to be honest.

770
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,240
Speaker 4: My heart belongs to Jane Wilders always.

771
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 1: I get in trouble for everything all of the time,

772
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 1: Like i'll, you know, pay, like take an extra breadstick

773
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 1: from the buffet, and like the police sirens start going

774
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 1: off and people are.

775
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 2: Like, what are you doing?

776
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 1: And I just don't understand how there's this really big

777
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 1: problem that no one gives a fuck about.

778
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:32,240
Speaker 5: It's like, sure, yeah, we'll just pass the trash. What

779
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 5: is happening?

780
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 4: I think there's a lot of levels to it. I

781
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 4: think one of the levels is just like the basic

782
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 4: people just covering their ass, you know what I mean.

783
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 4: These school systems are like their own little political systems,

784
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 4: and so I think that there's a lot of protection

785
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 4: that goes on. It has to do with, like you know,

786
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 4: funds or support or jobs, things that you receive that

787
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 4: you need and you can't have this dirty little stain,

788
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 4: you know, following you around. And I think that's part

789
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 4: of it. I'm almost sure that that's what happened in

790
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 4: my school you know why. It was like you might

791
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 4: hear rumors, but as long as it's not provable, then

792
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 4: like let's move on because we've got bigger fish to fry.

793
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 4: Kind of a thing, right. I definitely think that that's

794
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 4: what happened to me. I don't think I don't think

795
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:20,320
Speaker 4: that there's like an evil overlord who's like, oh, molest

796
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 4: the girl, you know. I definitely think that there's an

797
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 4: aspect of this, which is like if we if it's

798
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 4: if it's not gonna if it's not something that we

799
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 4: can prove, if there's not some you know, big dog

800
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 4: behind it, then like let's let's just let it go.

801
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 4: I think that's part of it. I also think the

802
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 4: other part of it is that there truly is this

803
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 4: cultural thing and I'm seeing it in the comments like

804
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 4: I'm stupid. I'm gonna stop reading them because it's going

805
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 4: to fry my brain. Yeah, and like I don't care

806
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 4: what people think, you know what I mean, Like I

807
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,359
Speaker 4: really am almost forty years old, Like I don't care.

808
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 5: That's good.

809
00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really don't give a shit with it.

810
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 4: Bob, you know what happened to me in high school.

811
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 4: But what I am seeing is there you know, just

812
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 4: generally is that there is like a cultural thing that

813
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 4: that happens where people want to assign the blame to

814
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 4: teenage girls, like they they want to believe that somehow

815
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 4: they're culpable or that they're they're even capable of like

816
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 4: making this thing happen. And what we're not doing is

817
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 4: looking like, Okay, sure whatever, let's say you believe that

818
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 4: about the teenage girl, but like, let's look at the guy, right,

819
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 4: the adult, Yeah right, this is the like, let's look

820
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 4: at the perpetrator. This is the man who is who

821
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 4: is deciding that, for some reason, a sixteen year old

822
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 4: girl is an appropriate partner for him. Like, let's look

823
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 4: at that basic bullshit. And I think that that's something

824
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 4: that the people are kind of forgetting when they're when

825
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 4: they're saying these things. So I think that that's the

826
00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 4: other bit about this is for some reason, we focus

827
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 4: on the desires of these teenage girls and their ability

828
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 4: to seduce rather than the perpetrator and their ability to groom, right,

829
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 4: you know, And I don't I really don't know why.

830
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 4: I've spent five years on this project. I've done a

831
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 4: lot of research, and I really don't understand that I mean,

832
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 4: I have ideas, and I have like my own you know,

833
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 4: feelings about the patriarchy and misogyny and stuff, but I

834
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 4: don't know, I don't know.

835
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 2: It feels like that's the same thing I learned in

836
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 2: church growing up, which is that like, well, if you

837
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 2: reveal your mitrif or too much of your thigh, the

838
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 2: boys literally physically cannot help themselves, and therefore it's you

839
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 2: who's tempting them and you are the problem versus like, well,

840
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure like a boy could maybe not he

841
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 2: could like literally physically stop himself from doing something one

842
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:53,240
Speaker 2: hundred percent.

843
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,399
Speaker 4: We are always to blame. Keep your legs closed, all

844
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 4: of that crap like blue balls, you know what I mean.

845
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 2: Don't fucking get me started on blue balls. That shit

846
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 2: fucked me up for so many years.

847
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 4: And it starts when we're like little girls, you know,

848
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 4: we're like groomed from the time we're babies. Yeah, to

849
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 4: believe these things and to like be pleasing and yeah. Yeah,

850
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 4: And that's in all kinds, that's in all cultures. It's

851
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 4: not just like Southern Christian culture. It's like it, you know,

852
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 4: it's everywhere.

853
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, but there is something to say.

854
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 1: I'm Midwestern with.

855
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:31,760
Speaker 5: Like a very religious.

856
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: I mean we're literally taught like you worship men, you

857
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: do what they say, they're the head of the household,

858
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 1: you whatever, whatever, whatever Like that was just yeah normalized

859
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 1: to me completely.

860
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, it's and it's you know, I think

861
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:51,360
Speaker 4: that gender stuff, like I think it is sick. Like

862
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 4: I think that the way that we we like separate

863
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 4: the boys and the girls at a young age and

864
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 4: like you know just like immediately sort of put these

865
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 4: this like gender thing on them and then like have

866
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 4: them behave this way. Like I went to school with

867
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 4: a lot of people who are non binary now like

868
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 4: they they have found themselves, and growing up in that

869
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 4: environment was really toxic for them because there is no

870
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,399
Speaker 4: space if you do not fit in one of those categories.

871
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 4: And this was like I think also, I think part

872
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,720
Speaker 4: part of my experience is that, you know, I didn't

873
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 4: feel like I fit into any sort of like gender

874
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:33,760
Speaker 4: roles in that way, and so I think when somebody

875
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 4: was kind of validating me in the ways that I

876
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 4: wanted to be seen, it was like easy for me

877
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 4: to be manipulated.

878
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 2: In the series, you you also talked to other girls

879
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 2: who've had this experience and are seeking justice. And I mean,

880
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 2: how common is this?

881
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 4: I mean, I would say it probably happens at every

882
00:45:56,520 --> 00:46:00,399
Speaker 4: single school, every single high school, within like a year.

883
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:03,760
Speaker 4: That would be my guess. If I were just throwing

884
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,840
Speaker 4: out a fake statistic, I would guess that this happens

885
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 4: in probably every school once every five years. You know,

886
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 4: It's it's an insidious problem. I rarely speak to anybody

887
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 4: or tell them the story and they don't say, oh, yeah,

888
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 4: I know that happened at my school. Its just I

889
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 4: mean it almost I almost never have an experience like that,

890
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 4: and if I do, it's because they usually don't know.

891
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 4: And they come back to me a few months later

892
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 4: and they were like, oh my god. I was like.

893
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 4: One of our producers was like, h she went back

894
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 4: to her hometown and was telling them this project she

895
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,359
Speaker 4: was working on. They were like, yeah, that happened at

896
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 4: our school. Didn't you know that? And she was like

897
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 4: holy shit, Like had no idea.

898
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 2: Wow, Well I was a fucking homeschooled nerd, so it

899
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:51,720
Speaker 2: didn't happen at my school. But are you sure?

900
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,280
Speaker 4: No, Yeah, obviously this is but it's not public schools.

901
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,479
Speaker 4: It's not private schools. It's it's everywhere, you know, it's

902
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 4: like three single school in the United States, every single

903
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 4: kind of school, you know, every demographic, like it happens everywhere.

904
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, did it happen at your anywhere? For you, Megan,

905
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 2: do you have any stories like this?

906
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, oh yeah completely.

907
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 1: I mean I just remember the basketball coach and our

908
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: math teacher, everybody being like they're cute and just them.

909
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 1: I just remember them like flirting and me always been

910
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 1: like hey, and then looking back, it's like, what the

911
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 1: fuck were they doing? Why were they flirting with a

912
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 1: fifteen and sixteen year old? And I'm sure they did

913
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 1: something with someone, I'm sure of it.

914
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:37,360
Speaker 5: I don't know it.

915
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 4: Imagine like being like a twenty nine to thirty year

916
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 4: old person. You guys are being like, oh, there, look

917
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 4: at this cute sixteen year old that looks like appealing

918
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 4: to me, or like I want to have like a

919
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 4: conversation with in my adult like life. Like I wouldn't

920
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 4: want to extend that into my adult life where I'm

921
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 4: doing things that I want to do. I just don't

922
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:57,720
Speaker 4: get it.

923
00:47:57,719 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 5: It's not normal.

924
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:01,240
Speaker 4: For sure, it's not normal, but it's.

925
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 2: It's common, but it's not common common, It's not normal.

926
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it is not What how about this? It's

927
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 5: not okay?

928
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 2: Yeah?

929
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 4: You know, I partially raised a teenager and I just

930
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 4: kept and he was sixteen seventeen eighteen when I was,

931
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 4: you know, beginning this documentary, and I was just like,

932
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 4: it's my partner's son, and and I just kept looking

933
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 4: at him and being like, oh my god, like this

934
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 4: is this is the age that that I was, And

935
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 4: this is totally crazy.

936
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 5: Perspective is so crazy.

937
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, can I bring up a really depressing statistic that

938
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 2: I recently tweeted? Though there was a sure and I

939
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 2: know we can, we can, we can have up in

940
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 2: a minute. But there was that, like there were there

941
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,919
Speaker 2: were all those okay Cupid studies pulling data from dating

942
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 2: apps and based on conversations and the you know, like

943
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 2: not self reporting or anything, but literally like who are

944
00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 2: the matching with? Who are they having conversations with? For women,

945
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 2: as they get older throughout their life span being on

946
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 2: a dating app, oh my god, their preferences get a

947
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 2: little bit older, and it's usually within a two to

948
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 2: three window of their year. For men, at least, this

949
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 2: was what five years ago or something at least five

950
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 2: years ago. For men, as they get older, their preferences

951
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,839
Speaker 2: literally never change and they stay in the range of

952
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 2: eighteen to twenty two until they're like fifty nine wo

953
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 2: or actually a lot of them are like literally nineteen,

954
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 2: it's like forty five. Number one choice is nineteen year old,

955
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 2: twenty year old. It's literally like that. It's forever, and

956
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 2: it's I find it incredibly like depressing and creepy and gross.

957
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, why do you think that is?

958
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:46,799
Speaker 2: I mean, I have a bunch of ideas about it.

959
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 2: I think like we have culturally held up youth as

960
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 2: the thing that is sexy and beautiful. We have like

961
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 2: this idea that I've heard so many fucking douchebag men

962
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 2: bring up, which is like, well, evolutionarily, like women are

963
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 2: the most fertile, This is just evolution. I think that

964
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 2: that is certainly not the whole story. I think a

965
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 2: lot of it is about porn. I think a lot

966
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:13,400
Speaker 2: of it is about movies and what is represented as

967
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 2: sexual and the way that women are sexualized. But I

968
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 2: don't know, you know.

969
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 1: Well, I can state for probably a fact, I was

970
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 1: much more fun to date when I was nineteen than

971
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 1: I am now, so I can understand the pull to

972
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 1: just experience maybe an easier type of person, well.

973
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 2: Someone who doesn't challenge you, Yeah, because they don't know

974
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 2: themselves that well yet. I mean, I think that's a

975
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 2: big part of it too.

976
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 4: I think though, I think that's the thing with the teenagers.

977
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:43,839
Speaker 4: I think that there is an element of this which

978
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 4: is like, this is an easier person to date, Like,

979
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 4: this isn't a person who's going to challenge me. And

980
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 4: I think that's because we part of that is like

981
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 4: a societal expectation that young women and girls be easy. Yeah,

982
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 4: that they be you know, that they be datable, that

983
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 4: they be fun, that they be loose, that they'd be sweet,

984
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:07,400
Speaker 4: that you know, that keep sweet thing, right. It's like,

985
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 4: and then as we get older, we care less and

986
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 4: less about that, and so we find ourselves, we become

987
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 4: more of ourselves. Yeah, and I think, yeah, it becomes

988
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 4: a little bit harder to date. But I mean, so

989
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 4: dating is hard, like being in a relationship is hard.

990
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:26,879
Speaker 4: It's difficult. I don't think that this is I don't

991
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:29,919
Speaker 4: think that these people are looking for like real relationships.

992
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:33,319
Speaker 4: They're looking for something that they can control, you know, right, right,

993
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 4: And that was that was what became clearer for me,

994
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 4: and my relationship with the teacher is that it was

995
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 4: more and more clear that he just wanted to control me.

996
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 4: He wouldn't let me drink coffee because he didn't believe

997
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 4: in drinking coffee. I could drink alcohol. I you know,

998
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 4: I had to like the same things that he liked,

999
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 4: and if I didn't, they were stupid. Like all of

1000
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 4: these things, these ways that he he groomed me when

1001
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 4: I was a teenager, and then when I stopped being

1002
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 4: those things for him, I became less attractive to him,

1003
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 4: and then he set his sights on somebody else. And

1004
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 4: so I think I definitely lived that, you know.

1005
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I've heard. I've heard dudes be like women

1006
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 2: in the thirties. They all want kids, They all want

1007
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 2: to like hold me down, hold me back, and whatever.

1008
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 2: There's so many Yeah, But.

1009
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 4: Like, what if we actually taught girls when they're younger,

1010
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 4: and I think that they are changing, But what if

1011
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 4: we actually taught them to be honest with themselves about

1012
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 4: what they really want and what they want to do

1013
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 4: in the world and who they be, and they were

1014
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 4: more individualized in that way, and their livelihood didn't depend

1015
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 4: on them being something for society or for a man, like, yeah,

1016
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 4: they didn't. You know how many times, like I can't

1017
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 4: remember how many times, Like in my late twenties, people

1018
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:47,720
Speaker 4: were asking me when I was going to get married

1019
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 4: and have kids, and I was like, this is not

1020
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 4: what I'm doing with my life right now. And I

1021
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 4: think there's just so much expectation to not just be

1022
00:52:57,800 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 4: cute and sweet and put in the pocket, but like

1023
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 4: to also behave like a woman. And there's all of

1024
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 4: this backlash to me too. Now. You know, there's the

1025
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 4: Andrew Taate, there's the you know, all the proud boys situation,

1026
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 4: all of that stuff that's just reinforcing this idea that

1027
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 4: like women should be women, and what that actually means

1028
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 4: is that, you know, girls should be women. And I

1029
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 4: think that's the thing for me that is the most damaging.

1030
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 4: What I'm really trying to fight against right now is

1031
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:33,320
Speaker 4: that we also deserve our individual freedom and girls are people.

1032
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 5: Yeah. I love that.

1033
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 2: I love that too. Thank you so much for talking

1034
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 2: to us and having this conversation.

1035
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 4: This was so fun. Thanks for letting me yap on

1036
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 4: about stuff.

1037
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 5: It's so important. Thank you.

1038
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 1: I agree, Yeah, god, it's yeah, it makes me really angry,

1039
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 1: but really helpful too. And yeah, I hope everybody watches this,

1040
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 1: especially young girls.

1041
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,279
Speaker 4: That's it's okay to be angry. It's what they call

1042
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:02,440
Speaker 4: it's the right, just anger. Right. We can so live

1043
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:03,799
Speaker 4: our lives. We don't have to carry it around with

1044
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 4: us all the time.

1045
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 2: Totally true. Keep This between us, guys, It's on Freeform.

1046
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 2: It's available now. And Cheryl, can you do you want

1047
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 2: to talk about your movie? Also, what's your movie?

1048
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 6: Oh?

1049
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, my movie is called Doula I directed written by

1050
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:20,879
Speaker 4: Aaron Shiver, and it stars Troy and Bellasario and Will

1051
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:26,840
Speaker 4: Greenberg and Aaron Shiver. Is produced by Chris Pine and Spottler.

1052
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 5: And it's oh my gosh, way I know, I know why.

1053
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 5: I think I recognize you. Okay, go on, and we

1054
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:37,720
Speaker 5: have a friend in common, okay, okay.

1055
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 4: And then and yeah, it's a it's a universal distributed

1056
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 4: it and you can find it on like iTunes and

1057
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:44,880
Speaker 4: Amazon and all that stuff.

1058
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 2: Amazing. I want to watch it. And also I Keep

1059
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:51,360
Speaker 2: This between Us is available on free Form and Hulu.

1060
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 2: Can't forget Hulu. Okay, awesome. Do you have social media

1061
00:54:57,600 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 2: that where people can find you?

1062
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:06,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm Cheryl pickles. We moved similar people.

1063
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 1: I'm friends with, like Caitlin, who should say friends, my

1064
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 1: best friends?

1065
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 5: I know, yeah, Caitlyn is one of my dearest friends.

1066
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:16,760
Speaker 5: I was like, why are you so familiar looking?

1067
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 4: That's so funny, Oh Megan, Oh my god, us, yes,

1068
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 4: that makes so much sense. I cannot wait to call Caitlyn.

1069
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 5: This is so ridiculous. Yeah, I'll text her too. It's

1070
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:31,840
Speaker 5: so nice to finally meet you.

1071
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 4: Amazing, amazing.

1072
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:34,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, it'll be out soon.

1073
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 2: So hell yeah, awesome, hell yeah indeed, hell yeah, thank.

1074
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 4: You, Cheryl, Yeah, thanks, thanks you guys.

1075
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 2: All right, Megan, Well, I already asked you if at

1076
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:48,719
Speaker 2: your schools there was any of that stuff going on,

1077
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 2: but I guess I'm curious did you have any age

1078
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:55,480
Speaker 2: and appropriate relations at any point in your life?

1079
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,239
Speaker 5: I never never like acted on.

1080
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 1: I had teachers that would kind of be flirty, but

1081
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 1: I nope, nothing that was constant, constipated, consummated.

1082
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 2: I mean, as I mentioned I did, I would say, like,

1083
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, forever, whatever weird fucking daddy issues I have,

1084
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:23,440
Speaker 2: Like I was very I felt the need to be

1085
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,480
Speaker 2: validated by older men for quite a long time, and

1086
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 2: like into my twenties, I dated some much older men.

1087
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 2: And I say dated, I mean as an adult I

1088
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:34,759
Speaker 2: dated people who were much older than me. But also

1089
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:38,319
Speaker 2: when I was younger, they were inappropriate men, you know,

1090
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 2: approaching me and in a couple of cases, you know,

1091
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:44,759
Speaker 2: kissing me. And it's really interesting to look back on

1092
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:47,880
Speaker 2: now because you know, at the time you really at

1093
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:50,319
Speaker 2: least I don't know again, can't speak to anyone else.

1094
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 2: But at the time I was like, ooh, this is wrong,

1095
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:55,439
Speaker 2: this is exciting, and then over time it's like, wait,

1096
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 2: that was gross and creepy and inappropriate. That man was

1097
00:56:59,920 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 2: like thirty five, I know, Oh there was one guy.

1098
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:07,760
Speaker 2: There was one man who whose name people would recognize,

1099
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:12,400
Speaker 2: who would it was like circling me literally, like the

1100
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:15,359
Speaker 2: two weeks before I turned eighteen, I was working at

1101
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 2: John Deducee and he was like coming in and leaving

1102
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 2: tips and wanted to hang out. And the week that

1103
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 2: I turned eighteen, he like took me out and was

1104
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 2: the first person that I kissed as an eighteen year old,

1105
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:31,640
Speaker 2: which I wasn't into it for different reasons at the time,

1106
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:37,520
Speaker 2: because I just I felt I felt objectified. But I

1107
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:40,840
Speaker 2: think if he had lavish attention on me in you know,

1108
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:43,880
Speaker 2: a grooming sort of way. I would have probably continued

1109
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 2: to go for it because I just like, you know, it,

1110
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 2: whatever it appealed to that insecurity in me that is

1111
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:54,160
Speaker 2: easy to manipulate in younger people, right. But yeah, so

1112
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:57,680
Speaker 2: now looking back on it, I'm like, oh, interesting, interesting, interesting,

1113
00:57:57,760 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 2: all of that stuff that I thought was so normal

1114
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 2: at the time, and yeah, yeah, it turns out it's not.

1115
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 2: I mean, like we said, it is common, but it's

1116
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:07,040
Speaker 2: not cool.

1117
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 7: You said it's not okay, Yeah, yeah, Like I was

1118
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:16,440
Speaker 7: very grossed out by a person like a year older

1119
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 7: than me. Really yeah, I was like gross, Like there

1120
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 7: was nothing I was very even now, like my boyfriend's

1121
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 7: still like two years younger than me.

1122
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:27,800
Speaker 2: Jack is a year and a half younger than me,

1123
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:30,480
Speaker 2: and it's like the first time that's ever happened.

1124
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just never I don't know. I mean, this

1125
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 1: is the first time I've ever dated somebody younger. But

1126
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 1: I've definitely never dated anybody older. I was always just

1127
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:40,440
Speaker 1: like my age.

1128
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 5: I don't know.

1129
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:44,120
Speaker 2: My first boyfriend was twenty years older than me. My

1130
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 2: first long term boyfriend, wow, yeah, and my second long

1131
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 2: term boyfriend was sixteen years older than me.

1132
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:51,960
Speaker 5: So yeah, none of that for me.

1133
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:54,880
Speaker 2: Those were complicated situations. I don't think those were predatory

1134
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 2: in the in the way that this in the way

1135
00:58:57,160 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 2: that Cheryl's story is predatory.

1136
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:00,000
Speaker 5: But yeah, they're all different. Huh.

1137
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:02,880
Speaker 2: It turns out that life is nuanced and complicated.

1138
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 5: It surely is well.

1139
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:10,120
Speaker 2: Speaking of nuance, Oh my god, I don't know what

1140
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 2: is it?

1141
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 4: Well?

1142
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 5: Who are we? Who are we?

1143
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:16,560
Speaker 1: Thank you guys so much for joining us for another week.

1144
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:19,720
Speaker 1: We cannot wait to talk to you here again next time,

1145
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:23,920
Speaker 1: and as always, remember to follow your gut, watch out for.

1146
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 2: Ad fats, and never ever trust me. Bye bye. Trust

1147
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 2: Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.

1148
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 5: The special thanks to Stacy Para.

1149
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1150
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:44,680
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1151
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:48,240
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1152
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1153
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Loola on Instagram and O La Lola on Twitter.

1154
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:56,760
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1155
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:58,000
Speaker 1: Hits on Twitter.

1156
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:00,439
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word