1 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: One fall evening, Mary Johnson went to bed and the 2 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:12,239 Speaker 1: dormitory of the MC convent in San Gregorio, Rome. Went 3 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:16,600 Speaker 1: to bed close my eyes. Had this dream where I'm 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: seeing a potter at a wheel and she's just they're 5 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: humming as she's forming this clay. The wheel turns. I 6 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: noticed that she's forming these little figurines and they're various people. 7 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: And when she finishes them, then she breathes life into 8 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: them and they come alive and they look like people. 9 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: In the dream, the floor of the studio opens up. 10 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: Mary can see the world below. She lifts that little 11 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: figure up in her hands and places it wherever. She 12 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: breathes life into a figure green and sets it down 13 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: on a busy street in Hong Kong. She puts another 14 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: one in a gray office, one in a rainforest, one 15 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: in the kitchen of a small house. Then the potter 16 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: forms another figure. This one has dimples and the curly hair. 17 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: The potter pulls out tiny glasses from her overalls and 18 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 1: balances them on the figurine snows. She takes a deep 19 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: breath when she breathes life into this clay figure that 20 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: she's created. I recognize that that's me. What I'm really 21 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: waiting to see is where is she going to put me? 22 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,199 Speaker 1: And so she's looking me over, turning me this way 23 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: and that, and then she speaks for the first time 24 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: in the dream, and she says, this one, this one 25 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: I like so much that I'm going to keep her 26 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: all for myself. And she puts me on this high 27 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: shelf in her studio, far away from everything and everyone. 28 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: And I'm so mad at her. I'm stomping my little 29 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: figurine feet and I'm shaking my fist at her, and 30 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: I'm shouting from my little shelf up there, let me down. 31 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: But the potter has already turned back to the wheel. 32 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: She ignores Mary. She starts to pedal, and she doesn't stop. 33 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: The wheel turns and turns and turns from a Coco 34 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: punch and I heart radio. This is the turning I'm 35 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: Erica ants Part eight, Saint of Darkness. At a certain point, 36 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: I was just really really exhausted physically, are intellectually finished, 37 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:04,639 Speaker 1: And I went to my superior and I said, I 38 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: just need a break. I can't take this anymore. I'm 39 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: really kind of scared what's gonna happen to me. She 40 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: could see that she knew that, and she was a 41 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: very kind person, Sister Dominica, and she said, well, the 42 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: Superiors are having a retreat. Let me see if I 43 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: can get you permission to go on that retreat. She 44 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: did get permission. Mary would have some time off for 45 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: prayer and reflection. On the retreat, she met a priest. 46 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: He was just over forty years old. He had an 47 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: easy smile, and something about his talks at the retreat 48 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: caught Mary's attention. He spoke with so much compassion and 49 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: so much humanity, and so much insight into the Gospels. 50 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: We aren't using his real name. Mary calls him Father Tom. 51 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: Father Tom was a person that everybody kind of felt 52 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: at ease around. He had this easy going attitude. I 53 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: heard once heard another priest describe him as the only 54 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: priest that he knew who really had no ego. He 55 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: knew how to listen. Father Tom would be the one 56 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: to take Mary's general confession this year. That's her annual 57 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 1: review of faith and conscience. Before she knelt for her confession, 58 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: Mary thought back. It had been a turbulent year. She 59 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: had felt overwhelmed with her workload, and there had been 60 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 1: that incident with Niobe. The sister who said I love you, 61 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: who Mary loved back, but who would eventually pressure Mary 62 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 1: to get physical and at times when she specifically said no. 63 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,799 Speaker 1: When Mary met Father Tom, her relationship with Naobe hadn't 64 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: turned sour yet. Mary asked Naobe to hold her and 65 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 1: they had embraced for the first time. Now, she had 66 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: this nagging feeling guilt. Before she started her confession, she 67 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,039 Speaker 1: thought about all the ways she'd failed her vows. Then 68 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: she knelt and made the sign of the Cross. She 69 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: spoke through the screen, bless me, Father, for I have sinned. First, 70 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: she listed her usual confessions, putting her own needs above others, 71 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: failing to serve with a generous heart. But at the 72 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 1: end she added, I've bent the rules, especially by showing 73 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: affection in inappropriate ways. I hoped he wasn't going to 74 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: ask for details, but instead what he did is he said, 75 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 1: You've got to be careful to balance the love of 76 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: others with love of yourself. Didn't Jesus say love your 77 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: neighbor as yourself, So shouldn't you be loving yourself. It's 78 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: not one or the other. You have to do both. 79 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: And then he said the words that really through me. 80 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: He said, You're just as worthy of having your needs 81 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: met as anyone else is. And that just really kind 82 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 1: of violated the whole you know, missionary of charity life 83 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 1: is to serve others. It's forget yourself, and we're always 84 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: told that, and I'm not supposed to think about ourselves 85 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: even and I thought, wow, okay, so he went straight 86 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 1: by the inappropriate affection thing and went to that place 87 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 1: inside where I wasn't loving myself. Mary returned to the 88 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: convent and a year later she became Niobe's Churtian mistress, 89 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 1: preparing her for final vows. You remember what happened, Mary says. 90 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: She told Niobe the relationship needed to change. As her mistress, 91 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: it could no longer continue. But Naobe didn't stop. She 92 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: requested to have a bed by Mary's and then at 93 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: night she'd reach over, unbuttoned Mary's night dress and grows 94 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: her or one time after real class and I will 95 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: be tried to unlace her bodice to make her stop. 96 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: Mary says she kicked Naobeesians. At the same time, Mary 97 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: had other church and sisters to take care of. She 98 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: was in charge of rule class and the Churchians had 99 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: a lot of questions for her questions about experiences they'd 100 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: had at missions, were they worked with people of other religions, 101 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: or at orphanages with large groups of children, situations more 102 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: complicated than Mary felt she'd ever faced. She wasn't sure 103 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: how to navigate at all. But what really seemed to 104 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: help was Father Tom. Even though Father Tom was her 105 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: confessor and a priest, Mary felt a mutual respect. Of course, 106 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: the two of them had very different roles. Father Tom 107 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: had more freedom and more power. Women can't become priests 108 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: in the Catholic Church, and actually the Pope recently doubled 109 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: down on this rule and his new Cannon Law roll out. 110 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty one, Pope Francis declared that any one 111 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: who attempts to ordain a woman will be automatically excommunicated 112 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: along with the woman. The very first time that I 113 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: went to confession to Tom as my regular confessor, he said, 114 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: I just want to know if women could be priests, 115 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: You're the one I would make my confession too. I 116 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: was like, okay, okay. So this acknowledgement from the beginning 117 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: that though there is this power dynamic there, we are 118 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: both equals in the sense of being spiritual seekers with 119 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: some sort of wisdom to share. Father Tom came to 120 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: the convent every week for the sisters confessions. As Churchian mistress, 121 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: Mary always went last. This meant she could stay as 122 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: long as she liked, and they talked. She liked talking 123 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: to him, she found solace in it. Father Tom was 124 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: educated and smart, and he knew the Gospels in this deep, 125 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: unusual way. He spoke of God is love. They discussed 126 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: religion and their spiritual journeys. When Mary struggled with the sisters, 127 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: he smuggled in a pop psychology book for her since 128 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: MC reading is so controlled, and she could talk to 129 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: him about Naobi. He knew everything although adults that were 130 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: going on inside, and I was very happy that I 131 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: didn't have to hide from him. I could show him 132 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: everything that I was going through and I didn't feel judged, 133 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: and he would give me good advice about how to 134 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: handle things. So I could tell Father Tom that, you know, 135 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: I know I'm not supposed to let anybody touch me, 136 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: but it just feels so good, and I don't know 137 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: it's it's the same kind of feeling I get when 138 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,199 Speaker 1: I have a good feeling in prayer, when I feel 139 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:39,719 Speaker 1: this sort of human closeness and this touch, and and 140 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: he wouldn't give a response that I might expect from 141 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: a priest. Yes, I know, you know, human touch can 142 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: be very healing. Of course, it feels like that. And 143 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: he would he would always return it. You know, more 144 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: than to the rules, You turn it to the gospel. 145 00:09:54,640 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: Jesus says, love as I have loved to Soon Thursday 146 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: confessions turned into post confession heart to hearts. Father Tom 147 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: would drink coffee and they talked. As weeks passed. She 148 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: stayed later and later, finally she could be with someone 149 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: who accepted her as she was. She says, I gave 150 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: her courage to go out and deal with the problems 151 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: she faced. There was one Thursday when I went to 152 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: confession and I was reaching my wits end, basically, and 153 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: and as I confessed, it's like I told Father Tom 154 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 1: all of the things I was doing wrong, all of 155 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 1: the ways I was failing. And he says to me, 156 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: but you're doing your best. You don't need to try 157 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 1: so hard. Concentrate on what's important. Let the rest of 158 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: it slide. And those words just the tears they fell 159 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: down my face. I just started crying and crying because 160 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: he was being so kind to me. And I wasn't 161 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: used to that. I wasn't kind to myself. Others weren't 162 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: kind to me. It was just like and here he 163 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: was just just so kind. And that day instead of 164 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 1: putting his hands just above my head when he gave 165 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: me absolution and a blessing, he put his hands on 166 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: my head and said that prayer. And when he did that, 167 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: I just I just felt like I was melting inside, 168 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: just this this sense of dislove flowing from his hands 169 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: through me. One day I went and I stood behind 170 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: his chair and I just put my hand on his 171 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: shoulder and tried to channel that love from my hand 172 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: through him the way he had done for me. M hm. 173 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: At one point, Father Tom said, I just feel it 174 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: really strange that you keep calling me father. Why didn't 175 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: you just call meet Tom? And I asked him to 176 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: call me Mary, not sister Donata. And we had been 177 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 1: talking to each other as Tom and Mary for a while. 178 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: Whenever we would have our weekly meetings after all the 179 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 1: other sisters had gone to confession, I would sometimes put 180 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: my hand on his shoulder or take his hand in 181 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: my hand, and he sometimes respond by putting his hand 182 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: on my knee or some similar sort of touch. But 183 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: he never started. He never initiated in those circumstances. It's 184 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: like sitting opposite him and I'm looking into his eyes, 185 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: and I know how we have both been trying so 186 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: hard to kind of keep our hands to ourselves. In fact, 187 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: I noticed that sometimes his hands would perspire with I 188 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 1: don't know, the effort to keep them to himself, and 189 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: he'll be like And so I just told him one day, said, 190 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: you know, if you ever want to take my hands first, 191 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 1: that's okay with me. And he told me, I've been 192 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: waiting for that, and I told him, I know you have. 193 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: And from that time on, I didn't always have to 194 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: take the first step. Cheerfulness and joy have to come 195 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 1: from within, don't they. I suppose that there is that 196 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: fake it to you, make it that if you pretend 197 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,719 Speaker 1: to be happy, you will eventually be happy. I think 198 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa was a past master that she always was smiling. 199 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: Collet Livermore, the sister from Australia, I had been struggling 200 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: with the tension between what her conscience was telling her 201 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: and what her superiors told her. She didn't like that 202 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: she had been directed not to follow her in her compass. 203 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: By her eight year in the m CS, Colett felt 204 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: dull and empty and emotionless, and to her, it didn't 205 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: feel like peaceful detachment. She says, it felt like the 206 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: apathy of depression. She decided to go home. It wasn't 207 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: the first time it had occurred to me, but yeah, 208 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: I was still mentally controlled by the Order and by 209 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: the all the religious stuff about God's will and hold up. 210 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: Colett knew she wanted to leave the Order and her vocation. 211 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: It was her last chance before a final profession her 212 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: lifelong vows. She was stationed in Calcutta at the time, 213 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: so she asked to meet Mother Teresa for her general permission. 214 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: That's a monthly ritual where sisters asked for permission to 215 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: use any belonging like toothbrushes, their prayer books because technically 216 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: they don't own anything themselves. They also speak their faults 217 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: and their assigned penances. So you go in the room, 218 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: you kneel down, you don't look in her eyes. You 219 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: had to kiss the floor. That I used to say, 220 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: you have to put your head down to the floor. 221 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: As Colette knelt in front of Mother Teresa, she spoke 222 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: her faults as usual, and then she stayed there. I 223 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: was still kneeling. I basically told mother that I couldn't 224 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: stand the way we treated each other. Why we traded 225 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: the poor, that why we were moved around. And she 226 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: told Mother Teresa she seen sisters hit the poor they 227 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: were serving out of anger. When she tried to help 228 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: people on the street. She was chastised. This life wasn't 229 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: for her. She was singularly unimpressed. Collette says Mother Teresa said, 230 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: look me in the eye. I tell you, sister, and 231 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: I would not tell you a lie. You have a 232 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: vocation to be a missionary of charity. Colletza's mother, Teresa 233 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: spoke with a stoutmatic certainty that she seemed to have 234 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: no empathy for her sister, who struggled to believe. She 235 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: told Collette she had no doubts. She said Collett's desire 236 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: to leave was the devil's temptation, the devil pretending as 237 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: an angel of light, and it was pride. I forbid 238 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: you to think like this. She told me to take 239 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: the discipline, take it harder than usual. You know, strange 240 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: habit of hitting yourself with a knotted rope. And she 241 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: told Collette not to judge the sisters who were angry 242 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: or violent. Those same sisters, she explained, might be feeling 243 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: just as much pain and guilt for what they've done. 244 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: Don't judge. You may be as displacing to God with 245 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: your judgmental at aitude as the angry sister is. Then 246 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: she told Collette, if you think like this, you must 247 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: go to confession and say I was disobedient and judgmental. 248 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 1: You must tell yourself. Mother has forbidden me to think this. 249 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 1: And then she told Collette a story, the story of 250 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: a mother who said that she'd rather her daughter come 251 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 1: out of the convent in a coffin than to leave, 252 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: than be unfaithful to her vows. I mean, how did 253 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: it feel to hear her say these things to you? 254 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 1: She's the saint, I'm the sinner. She must be right. 255 00:17:50,600 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I think I felt a bit despairing, like 256 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: I was trapped and I couldn't get out. But I 257 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: could have got out if I believed in myself more. 258 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: But that's the trouble. Somehow my inner self, my confidence, 259 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: my belief in myself, which and the truth of my 260 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: own thoughts, had been somehow undermined. I should have stood 261 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: up and said, look, mother, I've had enough. I'm not 262 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: going to hit myself. I'm not going to go to confession. 263 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: I'm going I'd like you to arrange for me to leave. 264 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: I need to leave, but somehow I couldn't seem to. 265 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: I just knelt there until she dismissed me, because that 266 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: had spent years learning to obey, and that's what she did. 267 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 1: Little did she know that the very woman who convinced 268 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: her to stay, who told her to whip herself harder, 269 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: who told her to stick to her vows, was going 270 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: through a hidden darkness of her own. When Mother Teresa died, 271 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: Father Brian Collodik knew what to do. He was ready 272 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: to start his research for her beautification and canonization process. 273 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: He would be her postulator for sthood. When we began 274 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: the cause, one of the first things we do is 275 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,360 Speaker 1: collect the documents you've heard from Father Brian before. He's 276 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: a priest in the Missionaries of Charity. I'm serving now 277 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: as what we call Superior General. That means like the 278 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: CEO if you want, of the father this congregation. So 279 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: he started looking for anything he could find about Mother Teresa, 280 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: and that's when he discovered the letters. The letters were 281 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: in the archives of the Archbishop's house in Calcutta. They 282 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: were letters hidden from public view, and if Mother Teresa 283 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: had her way, they wouldn't exist well. The Teresa kept 284 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: insisting that they be destroyed, but they weren't destroyed. The 285 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: men she wrote to a handful of confessors saved the letters. 286 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: They felt they had to keep these texts as they 287 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 1: revealed the depth of her vocation. They had a sense 288 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: that these were very special, sacred even because they were 289 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 1: very personal, intimate things that we had no idea. Father 290 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: Brian knew how special these papers were, and I just 291 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 1: didn't want to read them just like that. So when 292 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: Father Brian got them, he took them to a chapel 293 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: and then he started to read through the papers. Mother 294 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: Teresa to Father Nooner undated Now Father, since forty nine 295 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: or fifty this terrible sense of loss, this untold darkness, 296 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: this loneliness, this continual longing for God which gives me 297 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: that pain deep down in my heart. The place of 298 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: God in my soul is blank. He does not want me, 299 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: He's not there. Sometimes I just hear my own heart 300 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: cry out my God, and nothing else comes. The torture 301 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: and pain. I can't explain. Mother Teresa's darkness seemed to 302 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,479 Speaker 1: begin almost immediately after she founded the Missionaries of Charity. 303 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: As Father Brian kept reading, he watched years pass in 304 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa's life. He read references to events he recognized, 305 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: but she always came back to the darkness. In one letter, 306 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 1: she described her smile as a cloak which covers a 307 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 1: multitude of pains, and another she says, I don't believe 308 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: I have a soul. There's nothing in me. Reading those 309 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: letters in the chapel, Father Brian was shocked. He had 310 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: no idea Mother Teresa had experienced decades of darkness and misery. 311 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: She wrote, so many unanswered questions live within me. I'm 312 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 1: afraid to uncover them because of the blasphemy. If there'd 313 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:33,959 Speaker 1: be God, please forgive me. When I read these letters, 314 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 1: I felt such strong echoes of everything I've heard from 315 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: the former nuns i'd interviewed, like Mary and Collette. How 316 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: many felt told by despair and submission. How many felt 317 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: twisted and torn and alone. I get the sense that 318 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: a lot of them felt like impostors, like everyone else 319 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 1: was doing better than they did. But Mother Teresa felt 320 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: that too. I see my sister's day seemed to be 321 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: so close to Jesus and me. No, you might think 322 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 1: if you were a wife in some similar situation in 323 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: your husband, you're really passionately in loving and he's like, 324 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: he doesn't seem to care at all, it would be 325 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: extremely difficult. I think some people hearing this might say, 326 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: you know, this example of a husband ignoring you, that 327 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: doesn't sound like a healthy relationship. No, yes, it's very 328 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: sounds difficult. Yeah, But then the other dimension in this 329 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: is what we you know, we refer to us the 330 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: mystery of the Cross in our Christian understanding. As strange 331 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: as it might seem, the closer you get to Jesus, 332 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: the more you're going to suffer. That's the whole experience 333 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: of the saints. In a letter to Mother Teresa, whenever 334 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 1: confessors suggested another interpretation of the emptiness, she felt the 335 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,360 Speaker 1: fact that she couldn't feel God anymore wasn't a sign 336 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: that God had left her. Instead, it was part of 337 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: a mystical process experienced by some saints, something called the 338 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: dark Night of the soul. It's part of a tradition 339 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 1: in Catholic spirituality, a process of purification that many saints 340 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: and mystics go through one that ultimately brings them closer 341 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: to God, but involves a lot of pain and suffering 342 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: along the way. They become a plaything in God's hand, 343 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: as Mother Teresa would say, quoting Saint Terrez, like a 344 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: little ball of no value, she wrote, that could be 345 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 1: thrown on the ground, kicked about, pierced, left in a corner, 346 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 1: or pressed to Jesus's heart just as it might please him. 347 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 1: Part of the dark Knight of the soul involves losing 348 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: pleasure in the senses, leading to a feeling of pain, dryness, 349 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 1: and emptiness. Another part of it involves feeling abandoned by God. 350 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: There's so much egoism in ourselves, you know, so much 351 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,360 Speaker 1: of self is very painful to go through that purification. 352 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,360 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa wrote, He has taken all, and I think 353 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: he has destroyed everything in me. The only thing that 354 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: keeps me on the surface is obedience. But the idea 355 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: that Mother Teresa's deep loneliness meant she was joining in 356 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: Christ's passion that brought her comfort. Feeling farther from God 357 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: and his love meant she was growing more intimate with 358 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: him after all. From the beginning she wrote, I want 359 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: to become a real slave of our lady, to drink 360 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: only from his childice of pain. Mother Teresa once said 361 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: there are two kinds of poverty, material poverty, or someone 362 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: is hungry for a loaf of bread, and then an 363 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: even greater poverty, spiritual poverty, to be unloved. Here she 364 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: is on RTE in Ireland, in and that terrible loneliness 365 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: and being unwanted, unloved, being abandoned by everybody. Even in 366 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: our own homes. We may have somebody who is handicapped 367 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 1: like that, and nobody takes any notice, nobody even recognizes 368 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: that there is this child, this, this man, this woman 369 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: who is hungry for love, hungry to be recognized and 370 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: to accept with respect and love. The person hearing her 371 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 1: say the greatest poverty is to feel unloved. She was 372 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: speaking from experience mm hmm exactly. She was sharing in 373 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: solidarity with the other interior poverty as well. She would say, 374 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: if ever I will be a saint, meaning be declared 375 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 1: a saint, she said, I will be the saint of darkness, 376 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: of those in darkness, And we didn't know what she meant. 377 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 1: This is sister Kathleen Hughes the consecrated virgin who is 378 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 1: a former missionary of charity, the poor, the rejected, those 379 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 1: who feel their life is worth nothing. You know, those 380 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: in darkness, people who are driven to to suicide or 381 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 1: drug addiction and have failed in some way, maybe with 382 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 1: their parents, are in life. And she said, I will be. 383 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: I will be like they're saint. In two thousand seven, 384 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 1: Father Brian published Mother Teresa's letters and a book he 385 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: called Come Be My Light. One thing that struck me 386 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: when I read it is that this sounds a lot 387 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,199 Speaker 1: like depression. Her letters just seemed so sad and alone. 388 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: Father Brian says he looked into it. He thinks there's 389 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: a difference between a dark Knight of the soul and depression. 390 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 1: And actually a number of people have argued for differences 391 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: between the two. They say the symptoms aren't the same, 392 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,159 Speaker 1: for example, that depression spans a lot of different domains 393 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: of life, while the dark Knight is spiritual focus on 394 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: a relationship with God. But I can't help but think 395 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: of out the fact that depression looks different for different people. 396 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: Whatever lens you want to look at it through, one 397 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: thing is clear. She suffered a lot. Mother Treesa got 398 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 1: one short respite in for months she felt that she 399 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 1: was pleasing Jesus again. But other than that one month, 400 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa experienced the dark knight of the soul for 401 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: the rest of her life. Almost fifty years. When Mother 402 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: Trees's letters started being published, the story of her darkness 403 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: shocked the world, but of course the people impacted the 404 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: most were the sisters in Calcutta. When I was reading 405 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: some of these letters for the sisters, they were just like, 406 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: you know, a wide eyed and crying. I mean, it 407 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: was a shock. When Sister Kathleen heard the news, she 408 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: knew she'd need some serious time to process the letters. 409 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: As she read them, I decided I would take it 410 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: as a kind of a retreat, you know, like I 411 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: would spend these days in prayer. And I was reading 412 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: and I ended up on the floor sobbing, sobbing because 413 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: I kept seeing her face, that stretched, tired, exhausted face. 414 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: If you read about it in the papers, people were saying, 415 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: oh she was she was a fake. And all you know, 416 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: it was interpreted in all kinds of absurd ways that 417 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: the world has no concept. And Sister Nermala, who was 418 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: her successor, called me and she was telling me, sister Kathleen. 419 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: We we had no idea, nobody had any idea. Mother 420 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: never told us, and she suffered all of this, And 421 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: that also in itself is heroic. It is heroic that 422 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: she never she never spoke about it. You know, she 423 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: kept that secret because she might have scandalized some sisters 424 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: or or or weakened their faith. Well, how can she 425 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: tell us that that? It is also though God isn't there. 426 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: And it showed how great a person she was, How 427 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: great a follower of Christ, How great a woman you know, 428 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: a missionary? No wonder People were moved by her and 429 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:29,479 Speaker 1: drawn to her, you know, because she was like Christ 430 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: on the cross, saying my God, My God, why have 431 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: you forsaken me for me? I only found that out 432 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: after I left the order. Every time she talked to us, 433 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: she never projected that. This is Sue Ebber. She and 434 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: her sister Joan both joined the MCS. Sue was a 435 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: superior at the San Francisco Aids Hospice in the nineties. 436 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 1: I always think back if there would have been an 437 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: openness of her saying it is hard, and you know 438 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: you do you struggle, and you who knows where where 439 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: people would be but when you come to find out 440 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: that that which you felt was being portrayed actually was 441 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: completely the opposite. I went through a period of time 442 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: of feeling very betrayed by her, and then I had 443 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: to process that all for myself. I was I was, yes, 444 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: I was quite elated. For some strange reason. This is 445 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: Collette Livermore. Again. She was a human being. She wasn't 446 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: this saint on a pedestal that she struggle through all this. 447 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: I just felt vindicated somehow, And I don't understand why, 448 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: how she could truthfully tell me she didn't have any doubts. 449 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: Collett's initial reaction didn't last, though, because of course it 450 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: didn't make her happy to hear about this kind of pain. 451 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: I remember she told us in a talk once that 452 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: she went under Pradesh in a huge flood and there 453 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: were bodies everywhere. I got a hint then that she 454 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: couldn't work it out. She said, God's obviously trying to 455 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: tell us something, but I don't know what he's saying. 456 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: And like she confronted suffering very regularly, I could feel 457 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: a struggle in the anguish. And she said her cheerfulness 458 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: was just a cloak for a very deep loneliness, and 459 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: I think the highest value in the world is love 460 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 1: and relationships, and she'd set up a system where you 461 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: couldn't get any joy from each other. I think that 462 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: made people psychologically unwell. And so when I knew she'd 463 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: been through all this, I couldn't understand why it didn't 464 00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: change her her pattern, you know, the template that she 465 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: used to run the order. But she just thought blocked it, 466 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: like she told me to, you know, just suppressed anything 467 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: as a temptation. She obviously went through hell. I wish 468 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: I could have talked to her like a human being, 469 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: like a friend or a real person. So do I. 470 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: But as people so often point out, Mother Teresa was 471 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: of another time, with another sense of what was appropriate. 472 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: I was definitely not shocked, because I suspected for quite 473 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: a while that she had more interior suffering than she 474 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: led on. It also doesn't surprise Mary Johnson that Mother 475 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: Teresa kept her dark Knight of the Soul a secret. 476 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: She wasn't going to go around talking about her relationship 477 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: with Jesus. It would be like asking a woman to 478 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: explain what her most intimate experiences with her husband were like. 479 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: But she says she worries about the message. A secret 480 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: like this sends that when a sister is depressed or 481 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: suffering other Teresa's dark knight could be used as a 482 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,720 Speaker 1: reason not to get help, a sign that she should 483 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: have to suffer. It might even be instructed from above. 484 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,839 Speaker 1: Instead of feeling a dark knight of the soul, Mary 485 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:54,280 Speaker 1: Johnson felt her soul coming alive. Even with her growing 486 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: closest with Father Tom, though there were still moments when 487 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: Mary felt hollow hollowness that made her think about leaving 488 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: the order, and that even led her to make an 489 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: escape plan, the one where she was away at the 490 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: hospital by the coast. She thought you could find street 491 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: clothes and slip away. And I was very tempted. But 492 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 1: then various things happened and I wasn't able to run away. 493 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 1: And when I came back and I told I told 494 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,800 Speaker 1: Father Tom about that, I just looked in his eyes 495 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: and he's just saying, you can't just disappear. I mean, 496 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: tell me you wouldn't do that, Tell me you'd call. 497 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 1: I was like, he'd be concerned if I'd disappeared. Okay. 498 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 1: He told me that I should call him when I 499 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: was having a bad day. We could just talk and 500 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 1: of course how would I get to the telephone and 501 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 1: all the rest of it. But he told me I 502 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 1: hate to see you in so much pain, and then 503 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: he kissed the top of my head through my sorry. 504 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 1: That just I felt so good and so unexpected, and 505 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: it's a perfect Did you feel like you're falling for 506 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: him in some way at that point? I had felt 507 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: an attraction for him from the very beginning, from the 508 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: first time I saw him. I knew he was somebody extraordinary. 509 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 1: You know, I had been holding myself in check. I 510 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: didn't want to go further. I didn't want to do 511 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,240 Speaker 1: with him the things I've done with sister and Iobe. 512 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: That just didn't make any sense to me. Um. But emotionally, 513 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: we are having this relationship that deepens and deepens, a 514 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: relationship of trust, a very deep companionship on the spiritual 515 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,439 Speaker 1: journey that we were both on. And so naturally, when 516 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: you have a relationship where you feel completely at home 517 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 1: with someone, where you've always felt attracted towards this person, 518 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,439 Speaker 1: naturally your body wants to go there. And one day 519 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:04,280 Speaker 1: Mary couldn't help herself. Jesus wants me to have life, 520 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,479 Speaker 1: fullness of life. Where do I feel the most full 521 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 1: of life, and I knew that that was in my 522 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: relationship with Tom. That was it was really kind of 523 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 1: like almost the only place I felt really fully alive. 524 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,239 Speaker 1: So just before mass, Mary walked into the sacristy, a 525 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,239 Speaker 1: small room near the chapel. Tom was there preparing for 526 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:29,319 Speaker 1: the service, and I gave him this big kiss. It 527 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:33,359 Speaker 1: felt just so right, it felt all tingly, the way 528 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 1: those things can do sometimes, and I walked out afterwards. 529 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 1: He says, you know, you're very good at that, And 530 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,800 Speaker 1: he says, but please, you know, don't do that before 531 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: mass anymore. Like that, I couldn't think of anything else 532 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:55,800 Speaker 1: all during Mass Mary started confessing to a different priest 533 00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: after that. As time went on, Tom often incur ithed 534 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: Mary to call him on the phone so they could 535 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 1: just talk about their days, but Mary didn't have a 536 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 1: way to call him. Missionaries of charity did not make 537 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 1: phone calls without a very specific purpose and without permission, 538 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: and that purpose could never be just to talk to 539 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,240 Speaker 1: somebody about your problems. Even if she tried to sneak 540 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 1: a call, there would always be a high risk that 541 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,719 Speaker 1: someone walked in on her. But come winter, the superior 542 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: of the house moved out of Mother's room to a 543 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 1: warmer part of the convent. This meant Mary had access 544 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 1: to that room at night, and there was a telephone inside. 545 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 1: She started calling Tom while the sisters were on their 546 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 1: way to bed. She kept the calls short. You never 547 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 1: know who's listening at the door, You never know who 548 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 1: might open the door. But it was just wonderful to 549 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 1: hear his voice at the end of the day, to 550 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,279 Speaker 1: ask him how his day went, to to hear him 551 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:50,280 Speaker 1: say I love you before I hung up the phone, 552 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 1: to be able to say I love you back well. 553 00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:00,360 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa was experiencing her darkness, feeling ignored by her fause. 554 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 1: Mary was pursuing a forbidden love, a type of love 555 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 1: that she felt was expanding her life. She had said 556 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 1: I love you before, but this felt new. Something was 557 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 1: different from the manipulative I love you she'd heard so 558 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: often from Naobi. When Father Tom told me I love you, 559 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: it was in line with his actions. I knew that 560 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,360 Speaker 1: that he meant it, and it reinforced to me the 561 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 1: way that that God loved me, that I was worthy 562 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 1: of that. Mary was about thirty six at this point. 563 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:45,879 Speaker 1: She and Tom day dreamed about other versions of their 564 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: lives other places they could be What would it be 565 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 1: like if we could go out on the streets of 566 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,799 Speaker 1: Rome walking hand in hand, go through the park like that, 567 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 1: you know, we got the trees on either side one 568 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: of these beautiful Roman parks. Just to be able to 569 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,919 Speaker 1: walk hand in hand in public, wouldn't that be marvelous? 570 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,759 Speaker 1: Or to go a little further, What would it be like, 571 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: you know too, to wake up together in the morning, 572 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: to make coffee for each other too, to sit together 573 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,280 Speaker 1: and read at night? What would that be like? Wouldn't 574 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 1: it be so nice? There's kind of these imaginings of 575 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:31,399 Speaker 1: things that were totally impossible, even though they were so ordinary. 576 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,440 Speaker 1: It's kind of like me sitting here and imagining what 577 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,279 Speaker 1: would it be like to have a house in Hawaii 578 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: and another one in France? And oh, you know, it's 579 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 1: totally out of the questions. It's never gonna happen, but 580 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 1: you can imagine. At one point, Mary got sick a 581 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 1: sinus infection, a bad one. She had to go to 582 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: the hospital for surgery during Holy Week, so she asked 583 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 1: Tom if he would come. I told him that I 584 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: thought we could have some time alone. So on Easter 585 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:11,439 Speaker 1: Monday morning, I brushed my tea three times. I put 586 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 1: on the most revealing night dress that the sisters had 587 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,480 Speaker 1: sent me, which means that it had short sleeves, and 588 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,360 Speaker 1: it had a neckline where my collar bones showed a 589 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,440 Speaker 1: little bit. And I waited and waited, and every time 590 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 1: I heard footsteps in the corridor, I thought maybe. But 591 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,839 Speaker 1: then finally she opened the door and father Tom was there. 592 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:35,799 Speaker 1: Mary had a roommate, so Tom suggested they go on 593 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 1: a walk, and I said, yes, let's go for a walk. 594 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 1: The hospital was quiet, most people had been dismissed because 595 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 1: of Holy Week. Many of the rooms were empty. They 596 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:51,839 Speaker 1: walked into one of them, and we left the door 597 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,000 Speaker 1: slightly ajar, but we positioned ourselves in the room in 598 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 1: a way that anyone opening the door wouldn't see us immediately. 599 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 1: And we sat down and we found a physical intimacy 600 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:13,920 Speaker 1: together deeper than anything we'd managed to do back in 601 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:19,760 Speaker 1: the convent. Our hands found each other in new sorts 602 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: of ways, and it was a very, very beautiful moment. Afterward, 603 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,600 Speaker 1: they walked out of the room to the service elevator 604 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,160 Speaker 1: at the back of the ward. When the doors of 605 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,160 Speaker 1: the elevator closed behind them, they kissed again. We wrote 606 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,120 Speaker 1: that elevator up and down and up and now, and 607 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,279 Speaker 1: every now and then somebody would get on with a 608 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,120 Speaker 1: laundry cart or something like that, and we kind of 609 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 1: behave ourselves for a little while, and then we'd get 610 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:56,360 Speaker 1: in the elevator would go up and down again, and 611 00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 1: and it's like we just didn't want to separate from 612 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:06,920 Speaker 1: each other. Yeah, But then finally we did open the 613 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:11,799 Speaker 1: door on the elevator and Tom left to go, and 614 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,399 Speaker 1: I watched and watched and watched until I couldn't see 615 00:43:15,440 --> 00:44:24,319 Speaker 1: him anymore. The Turning is written by Allen lance Lesser 616 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,760 Speaker 1: and Me. Our producers are Allen lance Lesser and Emily Foreman. 617 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:31,840 Speaker 1: Our editor is Rob Rosenthal. Andrea Asuage is our digital producer. 618 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,680 Speaker 1: Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado. Special thanks to Amy Gains, 619 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:41,400 Speaker 1: Sarah oh Lander, Maran Frishkoff, Bethan Macaluso, Travis Dunlap, and 620 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:45,440 Speaker 1: consulting producer Mary Johnson. Her memoir and Unquenchable Thirst provided 621 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:50,640 Speaker 1: inspiration for this series. Our executive producers are Jessica Albert 622 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,760 Speaker 1: and John Parratti from A Coco Punch and Katrina Norville 623 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,520 Speaker 1: from My Heart Radio. Our theme music is by Matt Reid. 624 00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,440 Speaker 1: For photos and more details on the series, follow us 625 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,520 Speaker 1: on Instagram out at Rococo Punch. You can reach out 626 00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:06,560 Speaker 1: via email to the Turning at Rocca punch dot com. 627 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,720 Speaker 1: I'm Erica Lands. Thanks for listening.