Speaker 1: By labeling your feelings, trying to understand them, trying to
Speaker 1: express them in a constructive way, you're going to really
Speaker 1: avoid a lot of fighting and a lot of arguing
Speaker 1: and conflict.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers
Speaker 2: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes
Speaker 2: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
Speaker 2: think ring true. And yet for many of us, our
Speaker 2: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 2: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 2: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 2: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 2: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 2: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 2: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 2: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. We
Speaker 2: hope you'll enjoy this episode from the archive. Thanks for
Speaker 2: joining us. Our guest on this episode is Cindy Goodman Stallberg.
Speaker 2: She's an internationally respected psychologist and director for the Institute
Speaker 2: of Interpersonal Psychotherapy. She's provided psychological assessment and counseling for
Speaker 2: individuals couples, groups and families for over thirty five years.
Speaker 2: Her book is Feeling Better, Beat Depression and Improve Your
Speaker 2: Relationships with Interpersonal Psychotherapy.
Speaker 3: Hi, Cindy, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Hi. Thank you very much for having me on today
Speaker 1: and giving me the opportunity to talk to you and
Speaker 1: your listeners.
Speaker 3: My pleasure. Your book is called Feeling Better, Beat Depression
Speaker 3: and Improve Your Relationships with Interpersonal Psychotherapy, and we will
Speaker 3: get into details about the book in a minute, but
Speaker 3: first let's start like we always do. There's a grandmother
Speaker 3: who's talking with her grandson and she says, in life,
Speaker 3: there are two wolves inside of us that are always
Speaker 3: at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things
Speaker 3: like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a
Speaker 3: bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear.
Speaker 3: And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for
Speaker 3: a second, and he looks up at his grandmother. He says, well, grandmother,
Speaker 3: which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed.
Speaker 4: It's interesting parable, isn't it. Eh?
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I'd like to start off by asking you
Speaker 3: what that parable means to you in your life and
Speaker 3: in the work that you do.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I think, certainly as a grandmother, it's fun for
Speaker 1: me to think about those issues and it speaks to
Speaker 1: really what I think is the wide range of emotions
Speaker 1: we all experience. Right, So if we were on a
Speaker 1: desert island, it wouldn't matter as much how we behaved
Speaker 1: as a result of those feelings. But because most of
Speaker 1: us really interact with so many people, you know, on
Speaker 1: a daily basis, I think it's how we deal with
Speaker 1: those feelings, those wolves. How we express or don't express
Speaker 1: our huge range of emotions. Right, Not that being unhappy
Speaker 1: or mad or angry is bad per se, but how
Speaker 1: we express them and the impact that's going to have
Speaker 1: on our relationships. That I think is the most important
Speaker 1: part of what you know, the Parable says to me
Speaker 1: in my life, and really what the book is all about.
Speaker 3: Wonderful listener, as you're listening, what resonated with you in that?
Speaker 3: I think a lot of us have some ideas of
Speaker 3: things that we can do to feed our good wolf.
Speaker 3: And here's a good tip to make it more likely
Speaker 3: that you do it. It can be really helpful to
Speaker 3: reflect right before you do that thing on why you
Speaker 3: want to do it. Our brains are always making a
Speaker 3: calculation of what neuroscientists would call reward value. Basically, is
Speaker 3: this thing worth doing? And so when you're getting ready
Speaker 3: to do this thing that you want to do to
Speaker 3: feed your good wolf, reflecting on why actually helps to
Speaker 3: make the reward value on that higher and makes it
Speaker 3: more likely that you're going to do that. For example,
Speaker 3: if what you're trying to do is exercise, Right before
Speaker 3: you're getting ready to exercise, it can be useful to
Speaker 3: remind yourself of why, For example, I want to exercise
Speaker 3: because it makes my mental and emotional health better today.
Speaker 3: If you'd like a step by step guide for how
Speaker 3: you can easily build new habits that feed your good wolf,
Speaker 3: go to Goodwolf dot me, slash change and join the
Speaker 3: free masterclass. Early on in the book, you say we
Speaker 3: want to let you in on a secret. Your relationships
Speaker 3: hold the key to your happiness. Not your bank account,
Speaker 3: your job of a Caribbean vacation, having a baby, not
Speaker 3: having a baby, getting a promotion, building your dream kitchen,
Speaker 3: or losing ten pounds. Those things may give you a
Speaker 3: momentary boost, but it's your relationships with your friend's family, spouse, girlfriend, boyfriend,
Speaker 3: coworkers and neighbors, even your hairdresser, that will determine whether
Speaker 3: you're happy for the long term.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I think that's what really ipt. It's interpersonal psychotherapy,
Speaker 1: which is the model that the book is based on,
Speaker 1: is based on the premise that if you have good, meaningful,
Speaker 1: constructive relationships, you're going to feel better. And if you're
Speaker 1: struggling with depression or mood difficulties and you have good
Speaker 1: meaningful relationships, then the symptoms of the depression will reduce
Speaker 1: and diminish more quickly. So that's really the focus of
Speaker 1: what I certainly believe and I think we find when
Speaker 1: we do you address people's mood difficulties, it comes from
Speaker 1: the conflicts they're having with others, or the stresses or
Speaker 1: the disappointments, or if someone has lost a loved one
Speaker 1: in terms of the death of someone, or maybe there's
Speaker 1: been a huge transition in moving cities or losing a
Speaker 1: job or being divorced, your relationships are profoundly affected and
Speaker 1: it then results in whether you feel good about situation
Speaker 1: and what's happening, or whether you don't feel very good
Speaker 1: about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you say that the founders of interpersonal psychotherapy saw
Speaker 3: a pattern, and that was that people who had depression
Speaker 3: were experiencing problems in at least one of four different
Speaker 3: areas when they became depressed. Life transitions, complicated griefs, social isolation,
Speaker 3: or interpersonal conflict.
Speaker 1: Yes, I think that's something that you can see for
Speaker 1: yourself or others around you. So those areas were commonly
Speaker 1: what would kind.
Speaker 4: Of trigger a depressive episode.
Speaker 1: So being able to look at when you became depressed
Speaker 1: or when you were having difficulty, if you could sit
Speaker 1: back and say, well, yeah, that was when my friend
Speaker 1: and I got into a you know, serious argument and
Speaker 1: we stopped speaking to one another. Well, the result is
Speaker 1: that you're lonely and you're distressed, and you're just you know,
Speaker 1: pretty sad about what you've lost or if you've you know,
Speaker 1: if you've lost a loved one. Sometimes you know, these
Speaker 1: are common situations, but for some people they struggle with
Speaker 1: that in a more profound way. So if someone passed
Speaker 1: away a number of years ago, but you feel still
Speaker 1: almost exactly the same as you felt when they or
Speaker 1: you never even let yourself feel sadness or a loss
Speaker 1: of that, that will affect your mood and how you're
Speaker 1: feeling or you go through a transition, you know, if
Speaker 1: you've lost a job or you have a baby, even
Speaker 1: if it's a good thing, you know, I you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know about your experience, but certainly when I
Speaker 1: had my children, it was a huge adjustment. I mean,
Speaker 1: I thought, here, I'm a psychologist, I know what I'm doing,
Speaker 1: and I was open for a rude awakening as to
Speaker 1: how hard it was and what a big adjustment it
Speaker 1: was in my life. Or if a person struggles with
Speaker 1: making relationships or sustaining them and feels very isolated, those.
Speaker 4: Things, for sure you're going.
Speaker 1: To see how they affect your mood. Well you probably
Speaker 1: would see that as well, don't you think.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think this was a part of the book though
Speaker 3: that I wrestled with a little bit, because because my
Speaker 3: experience of has been now again, what's difficult for me
Speaker 3: to know is like, take it all the way back
Speaker 3: to where it started. It might very well have been
Speaker 3: any of those things. But when I get depression these days,
Speaker 3: it really seems to me that I can't tie it
Speaker 3: to anything right, because I look, and this is in
Speaker 3: my life today now. Plenty of times in the past
Speaker 3: that I had depression. There were one of those four
Speaker 3: things for sure happening, But as I've grown, I find
Speaker 3: that less and less the case. I feel like those
Speaker 3: areas in my life all feel pretty good, and yet
Speaker 3: sometimes it's.
Speaker 1: Still there, and I think that can be the case.
Speaker 1: But I think it's interesting too when clients talk to
Speaker 1: me or readers, they'll say, if you go back and
Speaker 1: you look at what was happening that day, what were
Speaker 1: you doing in the morning, what did you do the
Speaker 1: day before, who did you interact with? Was there something
Speaker 1: that bothered you or upsets you or distressed you. So
Speaker 1: when you go back and look at it, oftentimes people
Speaker 1: can pick out something that was distressing to them or
Speaker 1: you know, upsetting to them or frustrating or made them angry.
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, too, sometimes there's a big
Speaker 1: difference between clinical depression and feeling sad. So if you
Speaker 1: have a day where you're not feeling great and you're
Speaker 1: not even sure what's bothering you or what's bugging you,
Speaker 1: But the next day you get up and you're feeling better,
Speaker 1: then you're not necessarily need to look for what's going
Speaker 1: on in my relationships. But in this particular model, oftentimes
Speaker 1: people can pick something they can say this past week,
Speaker 1: this is what I was dealing with, this is what
Speaker 1: caused me stress, and then we help them work on
Speaker 1: how they can help themselves deal.
Speaker 3: With That makes sense, and so let's talk about One
Speaker 3: of the things that interpersonal psychotherapy goes through is it's
Speaker 3: an eight to twelve week program and the book is
Speaker 3: set up to walk you through each of those weeks
Speaker 3: like you would if you were seeing an interpersonal psychotherapist.
Speaker 3: And so we're not going to get through all of those,
Speaker 3: but one of them is to draw your social circle
Speaker 3: and then ask yourself some questions about that. Can you
Speaker 3: sort of walk me through this exercise?
Speaker 1: I think it's very helpful for people who aren't sitting
Speaker 1: really looking and examining their relationships in detail. So the
Speaker 1: social circle is really valuable in the sense of looking
Speaker 1: at relationships not as.
Speaker 4: All good or all bad, which.
Speaker 1: We tend to sometimes do and we say, well, that
Speaker 1: person's terrible and they did this to me and I
Speaker 1: really am mad at them. But instead, if you look
Speaker 1: at each of your significant relationships and as you say,
Speaker 1: we draw it out on a piece of paper and
Speaker 1: you're name goes in the middle, and there may be
Speaker 1: three concentric circles and you can put people who are
Speaker 1: important to you in different spots. You look at the
Speaker 1: questions are what's your contact like, what do you talk
Speaker 1: about with that person? When do you see them? And
Speaker 1: then what do you like about the relationship and what
Speaker 1: don't you like about the relationship and what would you
Speaker 1: like to be different? So the purpose is really to
Speaker 1: look at your relationships on a spectrum versus black or white,
Speaker 1: not all good or all bad, right, And also it
Speaker 1: gives you an opportunity to think about the things you
Speaker 1: would like to be different in that relationship. And it
Speaker 1: also helps you look at are there potential people in
Speaker 1: my social circle who I haven't connected with for a while,
Speaker 1: Did I really feel that they were supportive and caring?
Speaker 1: And maybe I'd like to nurture those relationships again. So
Speaker 1: the social circle is really a very dynamic piece of
Speaker 1: work or the information you gather in doing it so
Speaker 1: that those things can change. During the weeks that we
Speaker 1: work together, we either address one relationship in particular that's
Speaker 1: causing you maybe more distress or conflict or problems than another,
Speaker 1: but then also you can look at the other relationships
Speaker 1: and maybe it's a place also to look for support
Speaker 1: and for care and concern from. Who are the people
Speaker 1: who who I can lean on or can talk to,
Speaker 1: or can open up to and can help me through
Speaker 1: a difficult situation. So really, the social circle has I
Speaker 1: think has a lot of benefits and it's quite fun
Speaker 1: to do. I mean, I've done it myself as well,
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, where am I going to put
Speaker 1: this person? Should I make them closer to me or
Speaker 1: further away? Those are the kind of things sometimes that
Speaker 1: are enlightening. Some people's social circles are very limited and
Speaker 1: they don't have many relationships, and for those people, we
Speaker 1: want to help them begin to expand their interpersonal networks
Speaker 1: or inventory and build relationships that will be meaningful to them.
Speaker 3: That brings up a really good question, and I think
Speaker 3: sits at the heart of a lot of this and
Speaker 3: a lot of people that listen to the show. And
Speaker 3: if you read the research statistics right across America is
Speaker 3: this epidemic of loneliness that we're hearing about. So what
Speaker 3: are ways for people who don't have a very robust
Speaker 3: social circle. What are some of the ways you recommend
Speaker 3: to go about starting to change and build that.
Speaker 1: Well, I think there are steps that can be taken,
Speaker 1: especially small steps to begin with. So if you think
Speaker 1: about who you might have had contact with, and that's
Speaker 1: why we even say like the hairdresser can be helpful,
Speaker 1: or bartenders, they are sometimes the best people to talk to,
Speaker 1: right They they're easy people to speak with. So you
Speaker 1: really have to be prepared to kind of get out
Speaker 1: of your house. That's one thing or what I would say.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting is the idea of even connecting online.
Speaker 1: You know, people who are reluctant or somewhat anxious about
Speaker 1: connecting with other people. There are some benefits to online
Speaker 1: connections and groups because it gives you an opportunity to
Speaker 1: practice some of the skills of what am I going
Speaker 1: to say? How am I going to start a conversation?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 1: Am I going to talk to someone and ask them
Speaker 1: if they've gone through feeling concerned about? Well, what if
Speaker 1: I approach somebody and I had don't really know what
Speaker 1: to say? So we encourage those people who are isolated,
Speaker 1: who are lonely, who haven't had, you know, practiced the
Speaker 1: skills or of engaging with others to do that, to
Speaker 1: try it out. And we have conversation starters, so we
Speaker 1: don't just tell people who are reading the book, oh,
Speaker 1: go do it. We give them some very specific, you know,
Speaker 1: sentences and statements to you know, to make so that
Speaker 1: they know what to say. You know, if they to
Speaker 1: the person who gave them coffee, or to their hairdresser
Speaker 1: where they go for a haircut, or if they go
Speaker 1: to the grocery store and they can ask the person
Speaker 1: you know, how they're feeling, or you know, engage in
Speaker 1: in small talk there, so they're very specific strategies, or
Speaker 1: to even ask someone else, you know, have you ever
Speaker 1: had difficulty making friends? Have you ever had difficulty sustaining
Speaker 1: some relationships? And and doing that really gives you information
Speaker 1: and you sometimes find out that other people experience the
Speaker 1: same feelings that you do, and you don't feel as
Speaker 1: alone and you don't feel as isolated. So that's kind
Speaker 1: of one step for people who are you know, who
Speaker 1: are lonely, who are isolated, who are or less not
Speaker 1: as engaged with other people.
Speaker 3: So at one point in the book, you talk about
Speaker 3: the difference between feelings and moods. Can you help me
Speaker 3: understand the difference between feelings and moods?
Speaker 1: Well, I think there's quite an overlaps although in terms
Speaker 1: of feelings, what we encourage.
Speaker 4: People to do is to.
Speaker 1: Maybe label or identify their feelings, so it helps in
Speaker 1: terms of when you Certainly people tend to feel angry,
Speaker 1: and it's kind of easy to get angry, but it's
Speaker 1: harder to identify what other feelings you might be experiencing
Speaker 1: underneath the anger. So besides being angry, you could be frustrated,
Speaker 1: or you could be disappointed.
Speaker 4: Or you could be sad.
Speaker 1: And I think we really try to encourage people to
Speaker 1: look at more than just the one feeling. And in
Speaker 1: our book, for sure, we have a list of many, many,
Speaker 1: many feelings, so you can pick and choose. And you've
Speaker 1: probably seen those feeling charts, right with the happy faces
Speaker 1: or the faces with all the different labels on them.
Speaker 1: And I'll give you an example. The other day, I
Speaker 1: know I had gotten annoyed at my husband for not
Speaker 1: doing something, you know, it was a matter of meeting
Speaker 1: with a friend, and he didn't ask the questions I'd
Speaker 1: asked him, you know, to inquire about. And instead of
Speaker 1: just getting mad or angry, he said to me, he said,
Speaker 1: you had told me that you were over the difficulties
Speaker 1: in that relationship. And I could have gotten mad at him,
Speaker 1: and I could have gotten you know, told him he
Speaker 1: was a jerker.
Speaker 4: Why didn't he do it?
Speaker 1: But instead I thought about what he said, and I said,
Speaker 1: you know what, maybe I'm not over it. Maybe I'm
Speaker 1: still sad about it. Maybe I'm still feeling you know,
Speaker 1: the loss or feelings of rejection. And I thought I
Speaker 1: was more over it than I was. So by labeling
Speaker 1: your feelings, trying to understand them, trying to express them
Speaker 1: in a constructive way, you're going to really avoid a
Speaker 1: lot of fighting and a lot of arguing and conflict.
Speaker 1: But then, moods really are a conglomeration of feelings. You know,
Speaker 1: you may be in a depressed mood, and we have
Speaker 1: lots of feelings that contribute to that. That were irritable,
Speaker 1: that we were unmotivated, that were sad, that were ang
Speaker 1: that we're not interested, we don't experience joy or pleasure.
Speaker 1: So really, moods can be more of a kind of
Speaker 1: broader category of a lot of different feelings.
Speaker 3: One of the things that you have is ten questions
Speaker 3: for emotional enlightenment, and I like these. Obviously by enlightenment
Speaker 3: you mean lightening up, of course, but let's walk through
Speaker 3: these because I actually think that these are good questions
Speaker 3: that can help us to identify what we're feeling and
Speaker 3: to sort of tie what we're feeling to situations. So
Speaker 3: let's just go ahead and walk through those ten if
Speaker 3: that's all right with you.
Speaker 1: I think there's a huge component of awareness. So being
Speaker 1: able to be as aware as much as you can
Speaker 1: in terms of you can ask yourself how am I feeling?
Speaker 1: So you know, think of what it is you're experiencing.
Speaker 1: And I think it's you know, maybe I'm being stereotypical,
Speaker 1: but it's harder for guys sometimes to do this than girls,
Speaker 1: like you know, women tend to emote all over the place,
Speaker 1: but you know, being able to I say, what's making
Speaker 1: me feel this way, you know, being specific about it.
Speaker 1: What was making me feel bad the other day was
Speaker 1: that I was feeling sad and rejected by an old
Speaker 1: friendship i'd had. You know, how do I usually handle this?
Speaker 1: That gives you a chance to examine how you usually respond.
Speaker 1: The next question is, well, what happens when I handle
Speaker 1: things that way? So you get an opportunity to look
Speaker 1: at the way you handle your feelings. And the question
Speaker 1: that I often ask somebody is well, how's that working
Speaker 1: for you? You know, and often it isn't working for them.
Speaker 1: So by looking at how you handle it and then
Speaker 1: asking yourself again, well, how does it make me feel
Speaker 1: when I handle it in that way? So when I'm impatient,
Speaker 1: or I'm frustrated, or I don't listen, I don't feel
Speaker 1: that good about it afterwards, So I can really evaluate
Speaker 1: and say to myself, maybe I want to learn how
Speaker 1: to handle it differently. Right, And then the other question
Speaker 1: becomes how do other people who are involved feel?
Speaker 4: So it's really important.
Speaker 1: You know, it's easy for us to you know, blame
Speaker 1: others or not take responsibility for ourselves or justify well,
Speaker 1: I have every reason to be mad by the way
Speaker 1: they treated me depending on how I respond, it's really
Speaker 1: useful for me to know, well, how did they feel
Speaker 1: when I was angry, when I was mad, when I
Speaker 1: was short tempered with them? So being able to understand
Speaker 1: my situation and my feelings but also considering them is
Speaker 1: crucially important, right because you know, it's relationships are about
Speaker 1: two people, two or more people, and how the impact
Speaker 1: of what I do and what they do has on
Speaker 1: each other. Right, And then I try to look at
Speaker 1: what could I do differently? So in the book, we
Speaker 1: spend a lot of time trying to examine is there
Speaker 1: a different approach, Is there a different idea, Is there
Speaker 1: a different way? It's really the interpersonal style. And my
Speaker 1: co author Rawn tends to talk about this a lot,
Speaker 1: is what's your style of interacting? Do you interact aggressively?
Speaker 1: Do you interact by being really passive? Do you interact
Speaker 1: by trying to be clear about what you're saying?
Speaker 4: So it makes a huge difference.
Speaker 1: And if I do interact differently, what impact or what
Speaker 1: effect might that have on other people? So it's a
Speaker 1: great way to break it down to help people take
Speaker 1: a look at what they're doing now and how could
Speaker 1: I be doing it differently and making it work better
Speaker 1: for me and the other people I'm involved with.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I really like the way that just sort of
Speaker 3: starts from how am I feeling and kind of walks
Speaker 3: all the way through to how are other people feeling?
Speaker 3: And then you know, what is my habitual response to this?
Speaker 3: What happens when I respond that way habitually? And then
Speaker 3: you know one of my favorite questions of all time,
Speaker 3: and I use it in coaching work with people a
Speaker 3: lot is.
Speaker 5: What could we do differently? You know, what can you
Speaker 5: do differently?
Speaker 3: That's such a powerful question because a lot of times
Speaker 3: we get about as far as I shouldn't have done that,
Speaker 3: which is okay, that's.
Speaker 6: Good, But but now what what instead? Because that question
Speaker 6: what can I do differently, if we ask it in
Speaker 6: a really curious and open way, can unlock a lot
Speaker 6: of things.
Speaker 1: And if we're not sure, then the idea is to
Speaker 1: who can help us figure it out? And even but
Speaker 1: if you asked the other person if I said something
Speaker 1: to you and you didn't like the way I said it,
Speaker 1: what if I said, you know, Eric, how could I
Speaker 1: have said that differently? That would have made you feel better?
Speaker 1: Or wouldn't have sounded critical? So I think it's, you know,
Speaker 1: in terms of figuring out how to do something different,
Speaker 1: why not ask the other person? Right?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 5: That is a great idea that.
Speaker 1: To me is a really important thing to do. When
Speaker 1: we feel we want to help people, we have our
Speaker 1: own ideas of how we want to do it. But
Speaker 1: if I ask somebody what would be helpful to you?
Speaker 1: What could I do that would make us communicating better?
Speaker 1: And I think that's really important with with kids, and adolescents,
Speaker 1: because you know, that's fraught with a lot of a
Speaker 1: lot of problems trying to you know, trying to solve
Speaker 1: a conflict with an adolescent. You know, when you say, well,
Speaker 1: they're not listening to me, or they're not you know,
Speaker 1: doing what I've asked them to do. Well, what is
Speaker 1: it that I'm doing that isn't as effective? How could
Speaker 1: I engage differently? And the best person to ask is
Speaker 1: is to ask the kids saying, is there a way
Speaker 1: that I could speak to you about this or discuss
Speaker 1: this topic with you that would make it easier for
Speaker 1: us not to argue?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 1: That to me is a very valuable and the idea is,
Speaker 1: you know, you could feel like you're doing nothing wrong
Speaker 1: and the kids a pain in the butt. Right. But
Speaker 1: the point is doesn't matter. You don't have to be
Speaker 1: right or wrong. You just have to find a way
Speaker 1: to communicate better, right, and to solve the problem. So
Speaker 1: by putting it on yourself and saying, I really don't
Speaker 1: want to argue with you, I want to understand what's
Speaker 1: going on here.
Speaker 4: Can you tell me what.
Speaker 1: Would work better for the both of us?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 1: And those conversations are much more fruitful I find.
Speaker 3: I want to pause for a quick good Wolf reminder.
Speaker 3: This one's about a habit change and a mistake I
Speaker 3: see people making. And that's really that we don't think
Speaker 3: about these new habits that we want to add in
Speaker 3: the context of our entire life. Right, habits don't happen
Speaker 3: in a vacuum. They have to fit in the life
Speaker 3: that we have. So when we just keep adding I
Speaker 3: should do this, I should do that, I should do this,
Speaker 3: we get discouraged because we haven't really thought about what
Speaker 3: we're not going to do in order to make that happen.
Speaker 3: So it's really helpful for you to think about where
Speaker 3: is this going to fit and what in my life
Speaker 3: might I need to remove. If you want to step
Speaker 3: by step guide for how you can easily build new
Speaker 3: habits that feed your good Wolf, go to good Wolf
Speaker 3: dot me, slash change and join the free masterclass. The
Speaker 3: other thing that you say, and I think this is
Speaker 3: so important, you say, human interactions and the relationships that
Speaker 3: grow from them can't be reduced to mathematical equations. If
Speaker 3: I always do X, the end result will always be
Speaker 3: why if we try something and it doesn't work once,
Speaker 3: it's not game over. If we intend to try something
Speaker 3: new and things go sideways. It's not a forever failure.
Speaker 3: And this makes me think back to a previous relationship
Speaker 3: of mine, where our communication was disastrous and I would
Speaker 3: suddenly decide that I was going to deal with this
Speaker 3: in a new and better way, and so I would
Speaker 3: think about what that new and better way was, and
Speaker 3: I'd come to the conversation and I would trot out
Speaker 3: my new skills and the other person would just react
Speaker 3: in the same way and you know, same anger, same fighting,
Speaker 3: and I would then be like, well, I tried something
Speaker 3: new and that didn't work, so you know, I mean, right,
Speaker 3: I just I just throw away. And what I finally
Speaker 3: realized over a period of time was that a dynamic
Speaker 3: that had been built between us didn't change because I
Speaker 3: showed up one time to do things differently. I needed
Speaker 3: to show up consistently with this new approach. And it
Speaker 3: took me a while to figure that out because I
Speaker 3: would just get so angry, like I'm doing something different,
Speaker 3: but you're not. I think that's such an important thing.
Speaker 3: You know, it's not a forever failure.
Speaker 1: And now you know the next time you try something
Speaker 1: different with someone else, you're not going to expect it
Speaker 1: to work immediately. That's the good news is you know
Speaker 1: what you did and you know what you learned, and
Speaker 1: you can take those skills and use them in future
Speaker 1: relationships as well. Right, which is what ipt does. You
Speaker 1: want to focus on one area, You pick a goal
Speaker 1: and you work on that for the eight or twelve weeks,
Speaker 1: so and you know what you did that helped you
Speaker 1: feel better. And also I think partly we encourage people
Speaker 1: when they've tried something new. So if you had reported
Speaker 1: you know, I went and I figured out how to
Speaker 1: interact differently, I would say to you, no matter what
Speaker 1: the outcome, no matter what the other person does, pay
Speaker 1: attention to how you feel about when you tried it differently.
Speaker 1: So if I asked you even now, most people I
Speaker 1: would say say, well, it felt good to try it,
Speaker 1: to behave differently, and that's a little victory and a
Speaker 1: win as well. Right. So, if you were reluctant, if
Speaker 1: you were uncertain, if you usually behave in a way
Speaker 1: that isn't you know, you don't feel proud of but
Speaker 1: you tried something new, well that you know.
Speaker 4: That's terrific. It's terrific that you.
Speaker 1: Were willing to put it out there, no matter what
Speaker 1: the other person did. So that that, to me, is
Speaker 1: a very important and valuable piece to pay attention to.
Speaker 3: You have a phrase that you guys used through the
Speaker 3: book over and over, and it's to ask what's the
Speaker 3: best that could happen, what's the worst that could happen,
Speaker 3: and what's the most likely outcome? Give me some examples
Speaker 3: where that's a useful line of questioning.
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's preparing everybody to say, partly what's realistic?
Speaker 1: So I think that's that's one of the areas that's
Speaker 1: really helpful. So if I, you know, I want to
Speaker 1: approach somebody and I want to, you know, say to
Speaker 1: my kids, you know, or I want to talk to
Speaker 1: my partner about how we're dealing with the children, and
Speaker 1: I say, well, I never want to be the best
Speaker 1: parent I can be. I never want to argue or
Speaker 1: yell at them ever again. Well, you know, and I'm
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to do this right, how
Speaker 1: to accomplish this. Well, if I say, well, what's the
Speaker 1: best outcome that you could have by approaching your kids
Speaker 1: and saying, you know, I'm never going to argue with
Speaker 1: you again. We're going to figure this out. You know
Speaker 1: it's going to be well, what's the likely hood of
Speaker 1: that happening? That's pretty unrealistic, right, Or if I say,
Speaker 1: you know, it's never going to change, it's always going
Speaker 1: to be the same, and I'm going to you know,
Speaker 1: continue to argue and it's going to be a problem,
Speaker 1: then that's pretty discouraging. But if I say I'm going
Speaker 1: to approach my partner and we're going to have a
Speaker 1: discussion about how we're going to deal with the kids
Speaker 1: around screen time, then that's a much more realistic way
Speaker 1: to approach a conversation about how are we going to
Speaker 1: raise the kids or how are we going to deal
Speaker 1: with the extended family? Right, So, I think it's mostly
Speaker 1: in those circumstances where you're interacting with someone else and
Speaker 1: it's about your expectations. I think it's really really important
Speaker 1: to try to talk about one's own expectations in a
Speaker 1: relationship or in a family, or in a work situation
Speaker 1: or with a friend, and what they're expectations are of you,
Speaker 1: so that you both are able to really understand and
Speaker 1: articulate what each person is looking for in one another
Speaker 1: and what the best possible outcome or more most realistic
Speaker 1: outcome of the issue or the problem can be. So
Speaker 1: it helps in terms of preparing what if you get,
Speaker 1: you know, a bad reaction from someone if you haven't
Speaker 1: talked to them for a long long time and you
Speaker 1: pick up the phone and say, hi, we haven't spoken. Well,
Speaker 1: are they going to say, oh, I never want to
Speaker 1: speak to you again, Or are they going to say, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, I've missed you so much, I really want
Speaker 1: to see you. Or are they going to kind of
Speaker 1: be a little surprised that you're calling, but say, how
Speaker 1: are you doing? How are things going? We haven't spoken
Speaker 1: for a while, So you're prepared. We also help people
Speaker 1: prepare for the worst outcome if someone says that, or
Speaker 1: the best outcome or the most realistic one. That's where
Speaker 1: those three kind of questions really are helpful in kind
Speaker 1: of preparing oneself for what you might expect when you
Speaker 1: do approach someone.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you mentioned the word expectations there, and you talked
Speaker 3: about how important it is to talk about what our
Speaker 3: expectations are in a relationship and then to hear what
Speaker 3: the other person's expectations are. You guys have a tool
Speaker 3: in the book called the matrix that helps you lay
Speaker 3: this out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I love this tool because it lets people
Speaker 1: examine what I expect of myself, what I expect of
Speaker 1: another person, right, and then it lets the other person
Speaker 1: examine what their expectations are of themselves in our relationship
Speaker 1: and what they expect of me as well.
Speaker 4: So it's a good.
Speaker 1: Way to talk to one another, and it provides a
Speaker 1: structure where people can talk without fighting. So you don't
Speaker 1: do it necessarily when you're in the midst of the argument,
Speaker 1: but afterwards you sit down and say, I'd really like
Speaker 1: to address some things that are going on with us,
Speaker 1: whether it's and if it's a romantic relationship or a
Speaker 1: you know, marriage, or you basically might want to talk
Speaker 1: about finances. You may want to talk about extended family.
Speaker 1: You may want to examine issues about intimacy or sexual relationship.
Speaker 1: You may want to talk about, you know, children, and
Speaker 1: what those expectations are. So by each person identifying with
Speaker 1: those topics what they expect of themselves what they expect
Speaker 1: of the other person.
Speaker 4: You really have a vehicle. You have a tool.
Speaker 1: Where you sit down and you talk to each other
Speaker 1: and try to come up with the common a kind
Speaker 1: of a master matrix that you both agree on and
Speaker 1: you deal with it one thing at a time.
Speaker 3: Time.
Speaker 4: You don't deal with all of them.
Speaker 1: You pick one area, one topic, one issue, and you
Speaker 1: sit down and you discuss it with one another. You know,
Speaker 1: we help people identify how to do that and then
Speaker 1: you come to an agreement, hopefully something that's you know,
Speaker 1: you both are comfortable with doing.
Speaker 4: Let's say it's you.
Speaker 1: Know, do we have Sunday night dinner with my family
Speaker 1: every week? You negotiate it, you have a discussion about it.
Speaker 1: How are we going to deal with our finances? How
Speaker 1: much money are we going to bring into the family.
Speaker 1: Those are the things that the matrix is. The matrix
Speaker 1: really helps people clarify what their expectations are of the relationship.
Speaker 1: People really find it extremely valuable to use the matrix.
Speaker 3: You also go on and you talk about the psychologist
Speaker 3: Albert Ellis about how he has linked expectations to happiness,
Speaker 3: and he said that seriously unhappy people often have three
Speaker 3: rigidly held expectations. Can you walk us through what those are?
Speaker 1: Well? I think certainly any time you do have rigid expectations,
Speaker 1: and it's not hard to have those in our society,
Speaker 1: right where everything is put out there and you know,
Speaker 1: all the wonderful pictures.
Speaker 4: Of what the proposal should be.
Speaker 1: So when when you see on TV or magazine's a
Speaker 1: you know, flowers strewn all over the room, and if
Speaker 1: if you're you know, the person who's proposing to you
Speaker 1: in real life doesn't do all of that, you can
Speaker 1: really feel pretty disappointed that your wonderful, you know, expectation
Speaker 1: of how that was going.
Speaker 4: To work would would be problematic for you.
Speaker 1: I also think I can give an example of with
Speaker 1: you know, my husband, who we were going to go
Speaker 1: on a road trip, well, we had to go to
Speaker 1: a family function that was about five hours away, and
Speaker 1: I know that he tends to be pretty quiet in
Speaker 1: the car, so I said to him when we go, let's,
Speaker 1: you know, make sure you kind of engage. Let's engage
Speaker 1: in conversation or talk about things. And he said, well,
Speaker 1: you know that's not realistic to expect of me, because
Speaker 1: you know I don't talk a lot. He said, why
Speaker 1: don't you just take the plane with the kids and
Speaker 1: they'll be happy and I'll be happy and it'll all
Speaker 1: work out right. So you know, my eggs, we've been
Speaker 1: doing this for forty five years, and we found a way.
Speaker 4: You know, to make it work.
Speaker 1: So, you know, in terms of expectations, if you're rigid
Speaker 1: about them, if you still kind of feel mad or
Speaker 1: angry about the fact that you know, after so many years,
Speaker 1: the person is a wonderful, kind, loving, terrific guy, but
Speaker 1: he's really not going to talk as much as I
Speaker 1: want him to talk, you know, So you know, you
Speaker 1: have to really adjust your expectations. And another thing that
Speaker 1: I think with expectations that's so valuable, and I'd love
Speaker 1: to know your opinion about this, is I don't think
Speaker 1: you can expect one person to me all your needs
Speaker 1: all the time, in the way you want them and
Speaker 1: exactly in the time you want them to be met.
Speaker 1: So you can't put that pressure or that expectation on
Speaker 1: one person in a relationship because it's really not going
Speaker 1: to work most of the time. I think you have
Speaker 1: to have your expectations met by different people, you know,
Speaker 1: in different your friends or your family or your you know.
Speaker 4: That it's really you know, to put.
Speaker 1: That pressure on one person, I think is unfair to
Speaker 1: yourself and them.
Speaker 5: I agree.
Speaker 3: I think I certainly have needs that get met from
Speaker 3: lots of different people, and you know, that does seem
Speaker 3: to be a unique thing about modern relationships, as we expect,
Speaker 3: you know, one person to meet what used to be
Speaker 3: met by a lot of different people.
Speaker 1: And I think if we change that, if we really
Speaker 1: become more realistic about that, and we really look at
Speaker 1: the things that someone can do and can provide versus
Speaker 1: what they don't, I think we tend to feel a
Speaker 1: lot happier and we look at the things that are
Speaker 1: the most important to us, and I think the matrix
Speaker 1: helps this identify the values of what's important to us.
Speaker 1: So I've you know, I think I'm thinking a lot
Speaker 1: these days about what the values are crucially important and
Speaker 1: understanding the people that we relate to and do they share.
Speaker 4: The same values as we do.
Speaker 1: Do they share the ideas of being honest, of being
Speaker 1: there for you, of being compassionate, of being kind, about
Speaker 1: being enthusiastic and supportive to you and each other? So
Speaker 1: to me, those expectations are really crucial in my life
Speaker 1: and also how I want to treat other people. If
Speaker 1: I want to be respectful of someone, then I assume
Speaker 1: that they will be you know, I want them to
Speaker 1: be respectful of me as well. So if those values
Speaker 1: I think are very very important in building good relationships.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I really like that, So listener and thinking about
Speaker 3: that and all the other great wisdom from today's episode.
Speaker 3: If you were going to isolate just one top insight
Speaker 3: that you're taking away, what would it be. Remember, little
Speaker 3: by little, a little becomes a lot. Change happens by
Speaker 3: us repeatedly taking positive action. And I want to give
Speaker 3: you a tip on that, and it's to start small.
Speaker 3: It's really important when we're trying to implement new habits
Speaker 3: to often start smaller than we think we need to,
Speaker 3: because what that does is it allows us to get victories.
Speaker 3: And victories are really important because we become more motivated
Speaker 3: when we're feeling good about ourselves, and we become less
Speaker 3: motivated when we're feeling bad about ourselves. So by starting
Speaker 3: small and making sure that you succeed, you build your
Speaker 3: motivation for further change down the road. If you'd like
Speaker 3: a step by step guy for how you can easily
Speaker 3: build new habits that feed your good Wolf, go to
Speaker 3: Goodwolf dot me slash change and join the free masterclass. Well, Cindy,
Speaker 3: we are at the end of our time here. You
Speaker 3: and I are going to talk for a few more
Speaker 3: minutes in the post show conversation about some suggested conversation
Speaker 3: starters and some to be avoided conversation enders. So we're
Speaker 3: going to get kind of specific on some actual ways
Speaker 3: to make conversation go better, and we'll do that in
Speaker 3: the post show conversation. Listeners you can get access to
Speaker 3: this one and all of those, as well as a
Speaker 3: mini episode I do each week where I give a teaching,
Speaker 3: a song and a poem. All that is at oneufeed
Speaker 3: dot net slash support. Cindy, thank you so much for
Speaker 3: taking the time to come on and I've really enjoyed
Speaker 3: talking with you.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much for the opportunity. It's been a
Speaker 1: real pleasure.
Speaker 5: Okay bye.
Speaker 2: If what you just heard was helpful to you, please
Speaker 2: consider making a donation to The One You Feed podcast.
Speaker 2: Head over to oneufeed dot net slash support. The One
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