1 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: Hell though. Welcome to Savor production of I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: I'm Any Rees and I'm Lauren Vogelbaum, and today we 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: have an episode for you about the Joy of Cooking. Yes, 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: like the book. I mean, it is about the joy 5 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: of cooking. It is. It is, Yeah, and it was. 6 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: It was a very joyous one to do. I was 7 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: telling Lauren before this, I don't own this book, but 8 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: my mom did, and I there's such a wonderful documentation 9 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: of every edition and every cover that I believe she 10 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 1: has the much coveted nineteen seventy five version with the jacket. 11 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 1: But it was one of those things where I would 12 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: just see her, like as a kid, kind of flipping 13 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: through it as if it's a book, like not like 14 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: looking through to get a certain recipe, but just kind 15 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: of reading started reading it. Yeah. Yeah. But then every 16 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: now and then she had certain recipes would be like tonight, 17 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: I gotta get out joy of cooking. Like, so she 18 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: did have her go to recipes in it, but sometimes 19 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: I would just see her kind of just flipping through it. 20 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: So you bought back all these were memories from me 21 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: for me, even though I don't have one, I don't 22 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: know that's wonderful. I. Um yeah, I I think my 23 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,199 Speaker 1: mom and dad, both individually, like before they got together, 24 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: had their own copies and uh and I've I have 25 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: at least one of those. I'm not my books are 26 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: all in storage right now. Um, so I'm in this 27 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:40,279 Speaker 1: this really continual in between housing kind of situation, you guys, 28 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: And so I and I was like, I really missed 29 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: my books right now. Like I was like, oh, I 30 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: need to like like I can't put my hand on 31 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: that book. And it's so confounding because it's the first 32 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: time I think in basically my entire life, Like I'm 33 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: pretty sure my dad sent me to college with a 34 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: copy of The Joy of Cooking, um, and so like 35 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: I can't put a hand on it right now, and 36 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: that's very strange. Yeah. Yeah, it was nice to read 37 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 1: so many accounts of something similar to that that it's 38 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 1: a very kind of comforting thing people would reach for, 39 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: and that we this was kind of a last minute topic. 40 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: I'm glad you suggested it because it was fun to research. Uh, 41 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: but you know, we were looking for like Valentine's Day things. 42 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: There's all these tent poles happening. Um. But I think 43 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: and you can tell me if I'm completely reading this wrong. 44 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 1: But I feel like this is a good, you know, 45 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: reminder of the of this story you can find in cooking, 46 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 1: of this connection you can find in it, yeah, and 47 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: and right and like family connections and whatever that means 48 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 1: to you, and um and and yeah and and the 49 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: the joy of unreliable narrators. As we were, we were 50 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: also talking about a lot of a lot of this 51 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:04,839 Speaker 1: outline is based on various writings that various people who 52 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: have worked on these editions of this book in the 53 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: Rombauer family, UM, over the years, their recollections, and I 54 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: don't I don't think that their recollections are correct because 55 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: none of them match up. None of them match up. UM, 56 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: everything reported everything a little bit differently. And I'm like, well, 57 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: that's part of the charm. That's okay, that's fine. So 58 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: where does we're just rolling with it? I so with 59 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: the caveat that I have no idea of anything that 60 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: follows is accurate. Fun caveat. I feel like that's before 61 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: you know, like you're watching a horror movie. It's like 62 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: based on true events inspired by Yeah, and you're like, okay, yeah, 63 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: based on the Gale Weathers book yeah, yeah, Gale Weathers 64 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: the screen movie is coming out soon. Are not a 65 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: sponsor just a fan? Um yeah, well, it has been 66 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: a long time since we've done what we were calling 67 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: pro files and deliciousness. We've done James Beard, Isabella Beaten, 68 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: Julia Child, Edna Lewis, and I think we did Betty Crocker, right, yeah, yeah, definitely. 69 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: I mean she wasn't a real person, but all right, yeah, 70 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: falls in this kind of realm though. Sure, sure, Um, 71 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 1: we we've we've interviewed a couple of people who have 72 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 1: written books, Um Howa Hassan and h and Julia Skinner. Yeah, 73 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: so you can see all of those for for a 74 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 1: little bit more about that, I think also, um gosh, 75 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 1: some of our other like like more um history of 76 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 1: cuisine heavy episodes like the one about French cuisine and 77 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: stuff might kind of kind of dovetail. Yeah. Yeah, And 78 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: this one's really cool because it's been published so many times, 79 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: which we're going to talk about that. It is a 80 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: it's a neat kind of cycle of seeing oh at 81 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: this time, this is what was important and anyway, it's 82 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 1: it is a really it's I really enjoyed you sure 83 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: this one same, Yeah, in a frustrating way. But same. Yeah, well, 84 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: I guess that brings us too rare question. Yeah yeah. 85 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 1: The joy of cooking, well, joy of cooking or the 86 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 1: joy of cooking, depending on which edition you're looking at. 87 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: UM is a cookbook originally written Um and We're Collected 88 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: by one Irma s Rombauer and self published in self 89 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 1: published wild Um. It has since become a bestseller and 90 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: like a staple of American household cooking. And Irma was 91 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 1: not a professional writer nor a professional cook. She was 92 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: a homemaker. She wasn't even a particularly good home cook. Um. Supposedly, 93 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 1: one of her husband's family members, upon hearing about this project, 94 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 1: was like, Irma's a terrible cook. This is the worst 95 00:05:55,640 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: idea ever. But um, she she was. She was known 96 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 1: for for being, um, a charming socialite, like an active 97 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: member of her community organizations. Uh, and a great hostess. 98 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 1: And it's kind of those things, like her practicality and 99 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: her organization and her dedication and her charm that made 100 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: her a great cookbook writer. Uh. Joy of cooking is 101 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: just this like if you if you've never paged through 102 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: a copy like Annie's mom does sometimes, Um, it's just 103 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: endlessly practical and charming. Uh. One of one of her 104 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 1: friends apparently recommended that she write it as though and 105 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 1: I quote everyone were a fool in the kitchen. Um. 106 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: That's that's a quote from her, her daughter Marian. But yeah, 107 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: it's it's sort of like it's sort of like, explain 108 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: it to me, like I'm five. The cookbook, Um, Like 109 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: it doesn't talk down to you though, It just it 110 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 1: just doesn't make assumptions, like it wants you to succeed 111 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 1: and it is taking you from a base level to 112 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: hypothetical success. Yeah. I love it. It It doesn't make assumptions. 113 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, you know, I've been there, Yeah, and 114 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: in a higher place than me. But let's we'll start 115 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: from a place of kinship. Yeah m hm. And and 116 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: part of that is the way that the recipes are written, 117 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: because they're they're talking you through the process the way 118 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: that like a particularly clear friend might explain it to you. 119 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:31,119 Speaker 1: Like it's not separated into ingredients and then method. Um, 120 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: the ingredients are put in bold face in the middle 121 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: of the method, like someone's just talking you through it. Yeah. Um. Furthermore, 122 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: every like subsection starts with a quick or not so 123 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: quick about paragraph that describes real simply what you're dealing with, 124 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: like just a little bit about how gin is made 125 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: before you get into the cocktail recipes, or an explainer 126 00:07:55,560 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: on different types of pastry dough before the Philo based apps. Uh. 127 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: There are cross references to other sections in the book 128 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: if you want to explore other aspects of the ingredient 129 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: or the method of cooking or whatever it is that 130 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: you're dealing with. And uh. And it is so personalble 131 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: and like really dryly funny and kind of corny and 132 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: like sort of old fashioned, but in a sweet, in 133 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: a really sweet way. Um. As I was paging through 134 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: the twenty nineteen addition online, I ran across what I 135 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: considered to be an excellent example of the writing. Um. 136 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,439 Speaker 1: It's in the middle of this otherwise very straightforward section 137 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: about tea. Uh. And there's an entry on iced tea 138 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,079 Speaker 1: and it starts out this beverage originated in our family's 139 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: date of town St. Louis. The inventor was actually an 140 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:44,719 Speaker 1: Englishman who arrived at the concoction as an act of 141 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 1: desperation when the general public showed indifference to his hot 142 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: tea offerings in the sweltering Midwestern heat. Yeah, that's pretty solid, 143 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: and it just gives you a really all the recipe 144 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 1: for iced tea, and I'm like, what happened? It is 145 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: kind of like fun stream of consciousness, a lot of it. Yeah, yeah, 146 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: it's it's delightful. Um. There was also this gem at 147 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: the beginning of the section on cocktails, wine and beer. 148 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: In our experience, food is inseparable from alcohol, or at 149 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: least the latter should be cautiously consumed without the former 150 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: wi sage sage advice. Well, speaking of what about the nutrition, 151 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: read responsibly, we actually do have something kind of related 152 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: to the nutrition in this but that will be in 153 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,079 Speaker 1: the history section. It will be Yeah, don't don't eat books. 154 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: I guess that's that's all I got. Yeah, mm hmm. Well, 155 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: we do have some numbers for you. The Joy of 156 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: Cooking or Joy of Cooking is one of the best 157 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: selling cookbooks ever, over eighteen million copies since it was 158 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: published during the Great Depression, UM, and it has undergone 159 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: what I read, eight significant revisions, significant revisions. And it 160 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: really is, as I was saying, this fascinating look at 161 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: all kinds of factors throughout America's history, UM, wartime, rationing, fluctuating, 162 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: prices and tastes. The nineteen fifty one version had twenty 163 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: three recipes for stuffed tomatoes. That's amazing. That's beautiful. Yes, 164 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,839 Speaker 1: like new technologies like the blender, like whole chapters about that, 165 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 1: shifting priorities, especially around like health, um, And it was 166 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: very I will also say it was something that was 167 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: very cognizant of like price of your time and you're 168 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: what you could afford. Oh yeah, something that was very 169 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: I feel would be very comforting. And I think a 170 00:10:57,880 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: lot of people did feel that, like it wasn't shaming 171 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: in that it was just kind of like just straightforward 172 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: about it, like yeah, like I did find a whole 173 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 1: article about kind of this I want to say underground. 174 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: It's not underground, but kind of this whole world of 175 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: um getting hunting down copies of the joy of cooking 176 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: and how some copies can go for fift and there's 177 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: also dollars, American dollars, and there's so much fun shade 178 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: in my opinion about what they think is like these 179 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: collectors like oh that one doesn't count or it doesn't 180 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:41,839 Speaker 1: have this in it. So therefore very strong opinions about 181 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:47,319 Speaker 1: all right, Yeah, I always love a strong opinion, that's 182 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: beautiful and no cookbook collection. I feel like we've got 183 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 1: into this a little bit in the past, maybe in 184 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: that Betty Crocer episode, but it can be a violent sport. 185 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: They had opinion it was great. Um, so look into 186 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: that if you if you're interested. But in the meantime, 187 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: we do have quite a history for you. We do, 188 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: and we're going to get into that as soon as 189 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: we get back from a quick break. For a word 190 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 1: from our sponsors, and we're back. Thank you sponsoring, Yes, 191 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: thank you, alright. So The Joy of Cooking a collection 192 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: of reliable recipes with a casual culinary chat. As was 193 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 1: the full title. Original title was first published in As 194 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: You Said. It was self published by Irma Rombauer and 195 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: Irma Rombauer was a recently widowed mother of two. She 196 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: was this great hostess and homemaker out of St. Louis 197 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 1: and this was the first year of the Great Depression, 198 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: and Rombauer's husband, who had grappled with mental health issues, 199 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: had just taken his own life. UM. Stepping back a 200 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 1: bit it. Rumbauer was born in St. Louis in seven 201 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: Her parents were well off German immigrants, and she did 202 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: some traveling to Germany growing up. I suspect I read 203 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: some of those stories we can't really verify about her 204 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 1: early life, about who she dated and everything. Yeah, it 205 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: seems very exciting. Yeah, got a little bit, got a 206 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: little bit saucy. I read that, Um, she met her husband, Edgar. 207 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,079 Speaker 1: He was a lawyer and and she was just like 208 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: a socialite. But they met doing amateur theater. Oh. Oh, 209 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,319 Speaker 1: she did have an artist mindset. I read that in 210 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: a lot of places at least, and she she did 211 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: like to take on these creative projects. And after her 212 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: husband's death, she wanted to uplift her spirits and the 213 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: spirits of those struggling during the Great Depression. Again, this 214 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:52,839 Speaker 1: is kind of what we're reading through, you know, the 215 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: backwards the end of the tale. But yeah, she seems 216 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: like she seems like somebody who did enjoy way hosting. Yes, 217 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,439 Speaker 1: definitely hosting. Yes, because she was notably not a chef, 218 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: as you said, Um, yep. So when this book first 219 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,959 Speaker 1: came out, the cookbook contained four and fifty recipes that 220 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: she had collected and organized from family and friends. Yeah, 221 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: and she might have started doing a bit of this 222 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: years earlier as part of her like society involvements. But 223 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 1: that's one of the facts that I couldn't I couldn't 224 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: quite right verify. Yeah. I do love that idea though, 225 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: because again, and I'm gonna talk about this more in 226 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: a second, this was before the internet, so I can 227 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: just envision people kind of exchanging recipes and trying to 228 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: help each other out at these events, um which I love. 229 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: I love yes and and this cookbook was sprinkled throughout 230 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: with Yes tips on entertaining, on menu planning, those head notes, 231 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: as you said, kind of those things at the beginning 232 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: where rum Our would share thoughts and stories, some of 233 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: them longer than others. The original cover was a paper 234 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: cutout that was done by her daughter Marian, and it 235 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: depicted the patron state of cooks um st Martha Bethany 236 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: slaying a dragon that was supposed to symbolize kitchen drudgery. 237 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: It's really cute. Yeah. Yeah. She's holding like like a 238 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: mop in one hand and like a cauldron in the 239 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: other and she's right slaying this. It's honestly really striking. 240 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: It's great. I think it was reproduced in a whole 241 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: maybe a nineteen eighties version of the book. It's really cool. 242 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: I did find a timeline of like all the covers. 243 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: This is how I kind of figured out which one 244 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: my mom had. Yeah, and it's it's neat to look at. 245 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: Marian also helped test the recipes, and it was one 246 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: of the first cookbooks to remove the ingredients from the 247 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: direction section and list them instead chronologically, which I think 248 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: we talked about in um our episode on Isabella Beaten. 249 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: But it is fascinating kind of the because you kind 250 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: of got it. You gotta get in the mindset of 251 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: people who are using this as instructions. Yeah, I don't know. 252 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: I just find it a really fascinating look into the 253 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: human brain. Yeah. Yeah, both both methods are certainly valid. 254 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: I'm more used to having them separated, but I think 255 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: it's useful both ways. It's useful both ways. It is 256 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: it is. Rumbauer spent half of her savings to publish 257 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: this book, and she got a lot of positive feedback. Um, 258 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: so she started pitching it to major publishers in in 259 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty six. She succeeded in getting a national distribution deal. Yeah, 260 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: Bob's Merrill out of Indianapolis was the publisher who picked 261 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: it up. Supposedly, the president of the company met Irma 262 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: while they were playing bridge at Erma's cousins house, and 263 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: that's how it happened. Like she had submitted it a 264 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: few times, but it was the bridge conversation that sealed 265 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: the deal. But it went on to sell some like 266 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: fifty copies, which is a pretty decent success, although Irma 267 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: didn't really make much money from it, which was her 268 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 1: other motivation in publishing this book, because you know, she 269 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,360 Speaker 1: was she was in her fifties when her husband died 270 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: and she was a widow, and it was the Great 271 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 1: Depression and the family needed money. Apparently, she had, against 272 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: the advice of her lawyers, being sort of an experience, 273 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: signed away her rights to Bob's Merrill and the publisher 274 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: was pretty unchill about it from from what I understand, 275 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: and both Irma and later her daughter Marian had to 276 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: fight them like a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I 277 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: did want to put this note in here. As I 278 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, we did talk about this a lot in 279 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:48,160 Speaker 1: the Betty Crocker episode especially, but before the Internet, these 280 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: cookbooks were a way to not only share recipes and 281 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: offer advice, but also to feel a connection for home cooks, 282 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: who were largely women at this time, um, who were 283 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: putting together these meals, often by themselves, for their families 284 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: and friends. It made the experience less lonely. Um. And 285 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: one thing that said this cookbook apart was Rombauer's voice. 286 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 1: And Frank admit it's that she wasn't a great cook. 287 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: She's very open about it. There wasn't a pretentiousness to it. 288 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: There wasn't any shaming like I said about needing to 289 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: save time or money. And many families passed these copies 290 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 1: down continue to over generations. Oh yeah. Also note you 291 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: know this was right. This was published during the Great Depression, 292 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: during a time of a lot of social upheaval. Um. 293 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: More people were doing more cooking for themselves, you know, 294 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: like whereas upper class families had had servants do that 295 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: in the past, that was becoming way less common and 296 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: everyone had to stretch their budgets. Prohibition was still on 297 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:59,719 Speaker 1: when she self published. Um, although I can't I couldn't 298 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 1: track down whether it was in the original one self 299 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: published version or the nineteen thirty six version which was 300 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: after prohibition it lifted. But like first page, she's got 301 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: a gin and juice like first page. Yeah, um, either way, Uh, 302 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: the ninety three edition would become America's most popular cookbook. 303 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: It sold some six hundred thousand copies. Wow yeah um, 304 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,360 Speaker 1: and over the years, those four and fifty recipes flourished 305 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:43,640 Speaker 1: in two thousands of recipes UM. Sections like wartime rations 306 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: were dropped and replaced with entirely new sections like frozen 307 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: desserts UM. In the sixties, the from the Joy of 308 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: Cooking was dropped from the title. I still don't know 309 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: what that was about. Uh, but ye have different revisions 310 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: throughout this whole sort of mid century period. We're kind 311 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: of ahead of their time, you know, where we're more serious. 312 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 1: Recipes were being written with these fancy ingredients and like 313 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: lengthy preparations. Irma kept things affordable in terms of, as 314 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: you were saying, any both both money and time. She 315 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: encouraged the use of prepackaged ingredients as they came out. 316 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: A later marian added an emphasis on a return to 317 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: fresh vegetables like right on the cusp of the novelle 318 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: cuisine movement, so super interesting. Through the late forties and fifties, 319 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: Irma did enjoy a certain amount of celebrity and travel. 320 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: Julie Child wrote about being really inspired by her and 321 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: her book The two met actually in Paris over lunch 322 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: sometime in the early nineteen fifties and talked about writing 323 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: and publishing so cool um Irma Rombauer died in and 324 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: Marian co wrote new editions with Irma up until Irma's death, 325 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: though Irma did stop sometime in the in the nineteen fifties. 326 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 1: That next edition, after Irma passed away, that was published 327 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty three, was entirely done by Marian, and 328 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:20,239 Speaker 1: the family tradition would continue. By the edition. Marian's son 329 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: Ethan was co writer. Yes, and one of the things 330 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: I loved about this, which I'm sure is very frustrating, 331 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, but it was kind of funny 332 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: to read about, like like comic book level. Oh this 333 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: is this edition is not all the kind of like 334 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 1: behind the scenes. Yes. So one of the big ones, 335 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:47,360 Speaker 1: the seven edition that sparked a lot of consternation from 336 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: fans of Joy of Cooking because they had the addition 337 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: of recipes from celebrity chefs and food writers, which many 338 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: felt strayed from the heart of of joy of cooking. 339 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: The pulling of joy of cooking perhaps the thing that 340 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: made it what it was. An article out of the 341 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: Times labeled it the new Coke of cookbooks. Oh my, 342 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 1: that is the harshest most discs I can pass place, 343 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:26,719 Speaker 1: and that's beautiful. Uh yeah. Uh. Ethan was in charge 344 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: of that one, and and you know, I think that 345 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: that he and everyone involved really meant well. It was 346 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: like a nod to modernization. You know. They were making 347 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: use of professional test kitchens and professional writers. They had 348 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:43,639 Speaker 1: cut some some seemingly really retro recipes on I don't know, 349 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: like weird ice creams, and chapters about preservation because it 350 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,479 Speaker 1: seemed like no one was into that. The shrimp wiggle 351 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: was right out. I don't know what the heck that is, 352 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: but you can imagine, you can imagine aspects and what 353 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: a shrimp wiggle could possibly be. It seemed like a 354 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: good thing, and it just it just wash. Yeah, because 355 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 1: they are there's so much nostalgia involved. Like people were 356 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 1: mad the shrimp wiggle was taking. Yeah, they were like, 357 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 1: where my shrimp wiggle? Even they're not even making it, 358 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: but they want to know about it. Uh. So the 359 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: two thousand six edition was viewed as a return to form. Yes, uh, 360 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: and that run did include because it was anniversary. Um 361 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: so it included a leather bound anniversary edition with gilded edges. 362 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, yeah. Ethan was also in charge of that one, 363 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: and I think I think he was kind of um 364 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: humbled and apologetic but um. But right after, after two 365 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: thousands six, his son John took over so four fourth 366 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 1: generation of of cookbook writers. Mm hmm. But stepping back 367 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: just a second. Also, Ann Mendelssohn published a biography of 368 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: Irma and Marian called Stand Facing the Stove, The Story 369 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: of the Women who gave America the Joy of Cooking. 370 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. What a fandom around this. I gotta say, oh, oh, yeah, yeah, 371 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: I have. I have not read that biography, but I'm 372 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: I really want to now. I usually do that kind 373 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: of thing before these episodes, but it was a little 374 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: bit last minute at any rate. Um Erma was inducted 375 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: into the St. Louis Walk of Fame, which is a thing. 376 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: Um she she has. She has a star and a 377 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: plaque set into a sidewalk and everything. Yeah. Nice, Okay, 378 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: this brings us to kind of a complicated nutrition note 379 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 1: that I was alluding to earlier that I think should 380 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: be its own episode in the future. But yeah, yes, 381 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: all right, in the context of this. A two thousand 382 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: nine study out of the Animals of Internal Medicine called 383 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: the Joy of Cooking too Much Ye claimed that the 384 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: calorie counts of recipes and the joy of cooking. I 385 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: say the joy of cooking. I know people get mad 386 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 1: at me, but I say the joy of cooking. These 387 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 1: recipes had increased by an average since the nineteen thirty 388 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: six edition in terms of calori account right right, yeah, 389 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: right right right um and they advised classic recipes need 390 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: to be downsized to counteract growing waistlines. Yep. The study authors, 391 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: especially Brian wa Zinc when Zinc, who's head of Cornell 392 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: University's Food and Brand Lab, were known for sort of 393 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: controversial studies around eating habits that grabbed a lot of headlines, 394 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: very headline friendly studies. Um and. One of the authors 395 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: explained that they were looking into sources of obesity other 396 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,120 Speaker 1: than things like past foods, so they decided to look 397 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: into the joy of cooking. Now, this study ruffled a 398 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 1: lot of feathers, yes, including those of the keeper of 399 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: the Joy of cooking, Legacy Brombar's great grandson Seoan Becker 400 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: m hmm. With the help of Ron Bauer's biographer They 401 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 1: posted a response to the study on the Joy of 402 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 1: Cooking website criticizing some of the studies methods um And 403 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: one of the big things was the sample size. So 404 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: this study only sampled about eighteen recipes out of thousands. Yeah, 405 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 1: very small, it's less than one um. Still, they didn't 406 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: reject the findings out right. Uh, John seemed in interviews 407 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 1: I read with him, he seemed very aware, like, well, 408 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: I'm not a scientist, but something doesn't feel right to 409 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: me kind of thing. Um. Joy of cooking became almost 410 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: a symbol of the perceived quote sad American diet um, 411 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: which really really rankled to the point Becker decided to 412 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: conduct his own research and was elated that he was 413 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: not only not getting the same results, but he was 414 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: getting vastly different results in this study m M. So. 415 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 1: Becker sent his findings to several academics in the field, 416 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: including a behavioral scientist named James Heathers, who had made 417 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: a name for himself for critiquing studies like this and 418 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: publishing his results. And I think he did this in 419 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,640 Speaker 1: his spare time. It wasn't his job. He just was like, really, 420 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: it was a very passionate thing for him where he's like, 421 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: I won't stand for this. Um, Heather's explained the issue 422 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: with the study. The issue with this study was that 423 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: there was no way to add it upright. And that's 424 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: a quote. Um. He basically said, it's not that it 425 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: added up incorrectly, it just there was no way to 426 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: add it up right. So one example he gave is 427 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: that several of the included recipes don't have specific serving sizes, 428 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: so would be Yeah. He also agreed the sample size 429 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: was the problem. Um, And one Sink had insisted in 430 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: the study on comparing recipes that had the same names 431 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: over editions, even if they had involved into a totally 432 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 1: different recipes. So like the example Heathers gave was gumbo, 433 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: where like the original resid be I'm sure we defend 434 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: a lot of people, but the read recipe was like 435 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 1: chicken broth and celery, and like in the new one 436 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: it had like a rue and sausage and all that stuff, 437 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: like it was the same name. It was the same recipe. Also, 438 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: around this time, which was ish, an article was published 439 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: in BuzzFeed that detailed that the author of this study 440 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: had less than ethical research methods because basically, instead of 441 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 1: testing a hypothesis. He would decide the conclusion he wanted 442 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: and then manipulate the data to support that conclusion. And 443 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: there's like listeners, there's email records of this. It was 444 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: a whole expose. It was a whole thing. But basically 445 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: you'd be like, just massage the data, find a way 446 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: to frame the data so it looks like what we 447 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: wanted to look like. Because they did catch headlines a 448 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: lot of the things that came out of this this guy. 449 00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: I mean, we're talking about it now so fascinating. But 450 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: I do want to come back and do a whole 451 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: thing about about like food studies like this. Oh absolutely, yeah. 452 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: We We've been avoiding talking too much about right like 453 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: nutrition um as a whole episode topic because it is 454 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: so complicated. Like I mean, basically, just like that saver 455 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: motto that I give every time we talked about nutrition 456 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: studies would just be the whole episode. Um. But but 457 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: right now some of the some of the drama about 458 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: it gets really fascinating. Well, I know that the Joy 459 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: of Cooking team felt very vindicated after this whole night, 460 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: but um, stepping back a little bit, in twelve, the 461 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: Library of Congress included the Joy of Cooking among eight 462 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: eight other books that changed America. And yeah, John Becker 463 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: and his wife Megan Scott took over for the addition 464 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: that would come out in twenty nine, and John writes 465 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: in the intro to the book about this deep dedication 466 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: that they both had to not only the history of 467 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: the book, but also its usefulness to the modern reader, 468 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: Like they dug into every recipe and tested them themselves 469 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: in their own kitchen as their great grandmother had. Um 470 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: Marian wrote in the nineteen sixty three edition that the 471 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: book is quote a family affair as well as an 472 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 1: enterprise in which the authors own no obligation to anyone 473 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: but themselves. And you, oh yeah, honestly, it was really 474 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: really cool and fascinating to read into it. Should read 475 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: about the changes in the additions and why they made 476 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: those changes, and just the shifting cultural landscape very heartwarming 477 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, yeah, especially I mean I don't know, 478 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: like like maybe Annie you felt this too, but especially 479 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: being a amen who talks about food um and does 480 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: not claim to have any special expertise, like right, like 481 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: reading the story about these people who were just normal people, 482 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: um figuring out how to create something that has meant 483 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: so much to so many people, really really lovely. It was. 484 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: It was, oh, listeners, if you have a copy, I know, yeah, 485 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: oh goodness, right right, Like tell us tell us about 486 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 1: like which pages are stayed about the version, tell us 487 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: your favorite recipe. I need to once I get my 488 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: books out of storage at the hypothetical end of this 489 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: never ending in between houses situation, um, I will dig 490 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 1: into mine. Yes, yes, And that was one thing we 491 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: didn't really touch on. But some of those like collectors editions, 492 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: have like misspellings in them, and that's how you know. 493 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: It's like the original yes and the squirrel the squirrel logo, 494 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: some of you know what I mean. Yeah, it's like 495 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: that's how you know it's like an earlier version is 496 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 1: because there was a pretty graphic drawing because it has 497 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: illustrations in it of how to like cooco squirrel right, 498 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: the squirrel recipe? Okay, yea yeah. Anyway, we got to 499 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: know all the facts, we got to know all the details, 500 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: all their stories. But in the meantime, that's what we 501 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: have to say for now. It is it is. We 502 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: do have some listener mail for you already, and we 503 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: are going to get into that as soon as we 504 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: get back from one more quick break for a word 505 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: from our sponsors. We're back, Thank you sponsoring, Yes, thank you, 506 00:32:50,640 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: and we're back with listen joyous on this very rainy day. 507 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: But it is so gray out. Yes it's a very 508 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: dark near But anyway, Christine wrote, I thought i'd follow 509 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: up regarding hot cross buns in Australia. Technically they are 510 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: regarded as a traditional Easter food, and when I was younger, 511 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: they would go on sale perhaps a week before Easter. 512 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: I'm not sure when it started, but gradually they started 513 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: appearing earlier and earlier, to the point where they can 514 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: now be spotted on Boxing Day and stay on sale 515 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: for a while after Easter. This really upsets traditionalist. Most 516 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: are the traditional spice slash fruit buns. However, chocolate chip 517 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: buns are gaining in popularity. Some of the supermarket and 518 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: bakery chains that try out different gourmet editions. One Chaine 519 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: has a quote decadent assalted caramel hot cross bun on 520 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: offer this year. There are even savory offerings. Being Australia, 521 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: there is a vegemite one. Last year I tried a 522 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: jalapino and cheese variety. It was bad. I did some 523 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 1: asking on the socials and New Zealand also sells hot 524 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,320 Speaker 1: cross buns before Easter, though apparently not afterwards. Whether this 525 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 1: is yet another pathetic attempt by New Zealand to steal 526 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: an Australian food tradition and then claim they invented it, 527 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: I can't say. It might just be that several of 528 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 1: our major food companies operate in New Zealand. But that's 529 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: a very boring explanation. I also finished listening to the 530 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: classic bagel episode if you Lovely Ladies, get any hate 531 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: directed at you over this? Tell everyone to remember that 532 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: Australia has mass produced of vegamite bagels. Yes, we Australians do, 533 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:47,280 Speaker 1: indeed put vegemite on anything and everything. Let the bagel 534 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: purist think on that. Wow, that is something to think on. 535 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 1: There's a lot of contentious this. This is a very 536 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 1: contentious listener. Mail, I love it is um really came 537 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:06,760 Speaker 1: from New Zealand? Yeah yeah, um that for one thing? Um? Okay, 538 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: So I need I need point of clarification. Uh is 539 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,879 Speaker 1: their vegemite in the dough of the bagels? Is there 540 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: like a ribbon of vegemite baked in? I'm trying to 541 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: imagine this. I could just google it, but um no, yeah, heck, 542 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:29,959 Speaker 1: we need that firsthand account. Absolutely, And I vegemite hot 543 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,279 Speaker 1: cross bun. There's a lot of things my brain is 544 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 1: struggling to like, I mean, it's just like a good 545 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 1: yeast bun, and I mean it's a vegemite. I'm not 546 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,720 Speaker 1: very familiar with hot cross buns in the first place, 547 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 1: but now you're introducing all these other things, so I'm 548 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: just I'm just trying to keep up, that's all. Yeah, yeah, 549 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: I'm imagining that the cross that's that's the vegemite, is 550 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 1: a vegemite cross on top of the butt. That's what 551 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 1: I'm picturing. But again, these are just the imaginings of 552 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:08,279 Speaker 1: a very sleep deprived Lauren, So so who knows. Who 553 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 1: knows what reality could be. It's impossible to google it 554 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: at this point. Definitely, Well, thank you. We asked the 555 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,319 Speaker 1: question about hot cross bones and when they come out, 556 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: because in my experience, it is mostly around Easter. This 557 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: is funny that it upsets traditionalists. I'm sure it does. Sure, Well, 558 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,279 Speaker 1: it's just that mission creep of all holidays, you know, 559 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 1: like you're over with Christmas and all of a sudden 560 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,359 Speaker 1: there's Valentine and stay stuff out and I'm like, could 561 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: we give it? Could we hold on a breathing room? Yeah, 562 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: little breathing room at any rate. Um Sheldon wrote about bagels. 563 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 1: First of all, I have to state that my feelings 564 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 1: toward bagels are similar to those of Lauren. However, there 565 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: is a reason for toasting a bagel. If you're traveling 566 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: and can only get a second rate bagel, toasting improves it. 567 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: It can also help what they hopelessly stale. One other 568 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: than that, my choice is to eat a plane outside 569 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: of Montreal. Montreal bagels are hard to find throughout Canada. 570 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: But when I get to see you guys, when you 571 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 1: come up here for the Curd Festival, I'll bring Laurena 572 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,919 Speaker 1: Montreal bagel baked no more than two to three hours before, 573 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: and one for Annie two. But that's just to be polite, 574 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 1: because she's not a real bagel or um. But you 575 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 1: have to realize that while they share the name bagels, 576 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,399 Speaker 1: you cannot compare them to New York City bagels. It's 577 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: not even an apple to orange thing, more like comparing 578 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 1: a pizza to an apple pie. They both have a 579 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:41,399 Speaker 1: similar shape. Good notes. Okay, alright, Also intrigued. Intrigued about 580 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: this as well. I am as well, and thank you 581 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:49,800 Speaker 1: for your politeness and offering me a bagel. I agree 582 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 1: with you too. I feel like toasting can improve a 583 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 1: sadder situation. Yeah, I there's no qualms or beef coming 584 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,240 Speaker 1: from me. I was just kind of, you know, messing 585 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:08,839 Speaker 1: around because I know people got strong opinions, just being 586 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: a little incendiary. But no, no, I'm all for it. 587 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,399 Speaker 1: I prefer it toasted bagel honestly. Yeah, yeah, no, same 588 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: same um. I will say that super producer Ramsey just 589 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 1: deemed me a video of someone like cry reacting to 590 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 1: someone else slicing a bagel lengthwise instead of cross wise 591 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 1: like to bottom. Oh interesting. You know, it's a whole 592 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 1: world out there. It's a whole world of incorrect things 593 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 1: to do to babels. Yes, yes, it is. Well, I 594 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 1: look forward even more strong opinions. I love when we 595 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 1: rerun a classic and it got strong opinions the first time, 596 00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 1: and then we rerun it and it gets even more. 597 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,360 Speaker 1: I love it is so good. It's so good. I do. 598 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 1: I like it. Montreal bagel as well. I have one 599 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: that's good. Okay, all right, Well, see you at the 600 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: current festival one day, well we will in the meantime. 601 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 1: Thanks to both of these listeners for writing in. If 602 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 1: you would like to write to us, that you can 603 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: or emails Hello at favorite pod dot com. We are 604 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 1: also on social media. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook, 605 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 1: and Instagram at savor pod and we do hope to 606 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: hear from you with all of your strong takes. Uh. 607 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 1: Savor is a production of I Heart Radio. For more 608 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,399 Speaker 1: podcasts my heart Radio, you can visit the I heart 609 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,839 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 610 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: favorite shows. Thanks as always to our super producers Dylan 611 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 1: Fagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening, and 612 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: we hope that lots more good things are coming your way.