WEBVTT - How To Stop A School Shooting 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:25.036 Bushkin. Welcome back to Medal of Honor Stories of Courage. 0:00:25.516 --> 0:00:28.636 I'm Malcolm Glawell. Today we have something a little different 0:00:28.676 --> 0:00:30.916 for you. A few weeks ago I spoke to a 0:00:30.956 --> 0:00:34.596 woman named Molly Hudgens. You likely don't know Molly or 0:00:34.636 --> 0:00:37.876 her story, but I think you should. Molly is a 0:00:37.916 --> 0:00:41.556 recipient of the Citizens Medal of Honor, which was first 0:00:41.636 --> 0:00:45.556 awarded in two thousand and eight to recognize ordinary Americans 0:00:45.596 --> 0:00:49.956 whose actions quote epitomize the concept of service beyond self, 0:00:50.436 --> 0:00:54.636 above and beyond their call of duty, whatever it may be. 0:00:56.116 --> 0:00:59.076 In Molly's case, her duty was as a guidance counselor 0:00:59.316 --> 0:01:02.956 at Sycamore Middle School in Tennessee, where in twenty sixteen, 0:01:03.196 --> 0:01:05.876 she came face to face with the potential school shooter 0:01:06.596 --> 0:01:09.396 and managed to talk him out of it. Through the 0:01:09.436 --> 0:01:12.156 course of the conversation, you'll hear in Molly many of 0:01:12.156 --> 0:01:17.196 the qualities we've tried to highlight in this series so far, faith, humility, 0:01:17.516 --> 0:01:22.036 dedication to service, and an incredible ability to think quickly 0:01:22.116 --> 0:01:25.796 under pressure, and of course, courage. 0:01:39.596 --> 0:01:41.396 Molly, good morning, How are you. 0:01:41.796 --> 0:01:44.636 I'm good? Are you are? You're in your office at school. 0:01:44.676 --> 0:01:46.916 I'm in my office at school. Sure I am. 0:01:47.276 --> 0:01:50.876 And you're in where you're in Pleasantville? But no, what's 0:01:50.916 --> 0:01:51.556 the day. 0:01:51.436 --> 0:01:55.156 Of the town pleasant View, Tennessee, View, Tennessee. 0:01:55.876 --> 0:01:57.956 That's not where all the country stars live. 0:01:58.636 --> 0:02:00.516 No, they do not live in this part of the world. 0:02:02.276 --> 0:02:04.516 And how long? How long have you been teaching them? 0:02:04.596 --> 0:02:07.276 I just finished my twenty fifth year. I have spent 0:02:07.436 --> 0:02:10.476 my entire educational career. I got hired here at twenty 0:02:10.476 --> 0:02:12.556 two and so I've only worked here. 0:02:12.996 --> 0:02:16.796 Yeah. Now, did were you always a guidance counselor No? 0:02:16.996 --> 0:02:20.476 I started out actually as a teacher. I taught seventh 0:02:20.516 --> 0:02:23.676 and eighth grade language arts for eight years before I 0:02:23.716 --> 0:02:26.836 moved to the counseling departments. So this will be my 0:02:26.916 --> 0:02:30.116 I'll be starting my nineteenth year in the counseling department. 0:02:30.556 --> 0:02:36.276 Yeah. And so you came to Sycamore straight out of college. 0:02:36.436 --> 0:02:40.116 I sure did. I was a desperation higher our principal. 0:02:40.356 --> 0:02:43.916 Our principal had three teachers who were all leading consecutively 0:02:43.996 --> 0:02:46.596 on maternity leave, and I was planning to be a 0:02:46.676 --> 0:02:49.236 high school English teacher. This was a middle school, but 0:02:49.276 --> 0:02:51.116 I felt like it would be a way to get 0:02:51.116 --> 0:02:54.156 my foot in the door, and so I agreed to 0:02:54.196 --> 0:02:56.236 do it. I taught fifth grade, sixth grade, and seventh 0:02:56.276 --> 0:02:59.516 grade math, language, Arts, science, social stay all four subjects 0:02:59.556 --> 0:03:02.316 over the course of that one semester, and by the 0:03:02.436 --> 0:03:04.796 end of it, I just loved the school so much. 0:03:04.956 --> 0:03:06.996 I didn't think I could leave. I knew the kids 0:03:06.996 --> 0:03:09.556 would come and go, but the staff probably would. And 0:03:10.076 --> 0:03:12.436 that is so true of the culture here. I mean, 0:03:12.436 --> 0:03:15.836 our principal has never worked She's going to be starting 0:03:15.876 --> 0:03:19.516 her thirtieth year here at Sycamore, never works anywhere else. 0:03:20.076 --> 0:03:22.756 Our assistant principal has only worked in our county twenty 0:03:22.756 --> 0:03:25.516 five years. I've only been here, you know. So people 0:03:25.556 --> 0:03:28.556 tend to come here and stay, and that is such 0:03:28.716 --> 0:03:31.996 an important piece I think of our story is the 0:03:32.036 --> 0:03:34.676 culture that we have. People are very embedded. 0:03:35.196 --> 0:03:37.876 Why do you think people stay? What's special about the school? 0:03:38.636 --> 0:03:41.676 Well, because it's very much a family, and just like 0:03:41.716 --> 0:03:44.596 a family, we don't always agree, we don't always get along. 0:03:45.516 --> 0:03:48.596 That people who work here want to be here. We 0:03:48.676 --> 0:03:51.916 are notorious for hiring our former students. I think we 0:03:51.996 --> 0:03:55.876 have eight of them on staff right now. People come back. 0:03:56.036 --> 0:03:58.756 You know it's a good place to be. You know 0:03:58.836 --> 0:04:01.196 that you're loved and cared about. And we use the 0:04:01.196 --> 0:04:04.916 word family a lot to describe Sycamore, and so it 0:04:04.916 --> 0:04:07.596 would be hard to leave your family. So for me, 0:04:08.436 --> 0:04:10.196 it's been impossib to leave here. 0:04:11.236 --> 0:04:14.996 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So you'd been there for years, and 0:04:15.036 --> 0:04:18.196 you had told me you had had prior to what 0:04:18.316 --> 0:04:23.876 happened that day, you had been increasingly engaged with the 0:04:23.956 --> 0:04:28.516 question of school violence. Tell me about how did it 0:04:28.556 --> 0:04:31.756 come to your attention in those in that period. 0:04:32.756 --> 0:04:35.356 So my first year here at Sycamore was the ninety 0:04:35.356 --> 0:04:38.836 eight ninety nine school year when we had six mass 0:04:38.836 --> 0:04:41.516 shootings across our country that culminated with the shooting at 0:04:41.516 --> 0:04:44.356 Columbine on April twentieth of nineteen ninety nine. And I 0:04:44.396 --> 0:04:46.916 remember that day vividly. I went home, and that was 0:04:46.956 --> 0:04:49.116 when we had just started having twenty four hour news 0:04:49.196 --> 0:04:51.876 coverage and you could watch it all day long, and 0:04:51.916 --> 0:04:55.796 I was I was just fascinated, not by I think 0:04:55.836 --> 0:04:57.476 a lot of the details that most of the general 0:04:57.516 --> 0:05:00.676 public wanted to know about the specific situation, But what 0:05:00.716 --> 0:05:03.276 I couldn't write my mind around is how could two 0:05:03.316 --> 0:05:06.636 boys create a plan of this magnitude over a year's 0:05:06.716 --> 0:05:10.156 time and nobody know about it? And so I started researching, 0:05:10.396 --> 0:05:14.516 literally just googled anything that I could find about mass 0:05:14.516 --> 0:05:17.596 shootings that had happened on school campuses. I read every book. 0:05:17.956 --> 0:05:20.596 I think I own every book that's been written about 0:05:20.596 --> 0:05:24.236 a school shooting all because in my mind, I thought, 0:05:25.236 --> 0:05:27.236 if I could, what if we had a kid like 0:05:27.276 --> 0:05:29.276 that here at school? What if he was in my class? 0:05:29.876 --> 0:05:32.916 Would I be able to recognize that child was in trouble? 0:05:33.036 --> 0:05:33.316 Is there? 0:05:33.396 --> 0:05:33.556 You know? 0:05:33.596 --> 0:05:35.436 In my mind, I thought, is there a way to 0:05:35.556 --> 0:05:38.716 interrupt this process? To find them when they're young enough 0:05:39.076 --> 0:05:42.836 that you could then intervene and change that pathway, change 0:05:42.836 --> 0:05:47.796 that direction. And even I spent so much time doing research, 0:05:47.836 --> 0:05:50.276 I ended up on the Homeland Security watch list at 0:05:50.276 --> 0:05:53.516 one points. And I understand now why, Yeah, I mean 0:05:53.556 --> 0:05:57.236 I was contacted by someone and just stated, why are 0:05:57.276 --> 0:06:00.156 you looking into so much of this? And I think 0:06:01.596 --> 0:06:04.756 in hindsight, I mean, I even tried to find specifically 0:06:04.836 --> 0:06:08.476 writings that were taken from at the time those two 0:06:08.516 --> 0:06:11.916 particular attackers at Columbine, because I felt like, if I 0:06:11.996 --> 0:06:14.996 want to find a kid like this, I'm going to 0:06:14.996 --> 0:06:18.036 have to understand them, and I'm an English teacher. Most 0:06:18.076 --> 0:06:20.756 of what is going to come out would possibly come 0:06:20.796 --> 0:06:23.876 through writings that they would do in class, and so 0:06:24.716 --> 0:06:29.356 that started the path. I spent ten years doing that recording, 0:06:29.396 --> 0:06:32.236 writing down, taking notes on everything that I knew, and 0:06:32.276 --> 0:06:34.996 I went to our director's schools and so listen, there's 0:06:35.036 --> 0:06:37.396 only eighteen school counselors in our county, but we don't 0:06:37.436 --> 0:06:40.276 really have many trainings that are geared toward what we do. 0:06:40.836 --> 0:06:44.036 You know, is it possible that I could, because by 0:06:44.076 --> 0:06:46.436 that point I'd moved to the counseling department. You know, 0:06:46.556 --> 0:06:48.516 is it possible for me to do a training? I've 0:06:48.556 --> 0:06:52.236 written one. It's called Recognizing Red Flags an Educator's Role 0:06:52.276 --> 0:06:54.396 in Preventing School violence, and it was an in depth 0:06:54.396 --> 0:07:00.836 psychological analysis of about thirty school shooters. So I think 0:07:00.916 --> 0:07:04.276 that God was preparing me in a mighty way. He 0:07:04.356 --> 0:07:07.316 gave me eighteen years of talking to kids, both in 0:07:07.396 --> 0:07:10.796 classroom settings and individuals, and he gave me all this 0:07:10.996 --> 0:07:15.396 content knowledge that I had learned about psychopathy. I'd learned 0:07:15.436 --> 0:07:21.116 about psychosis. I've learned about even hostage negotiations and things 0:07:21.116 --> 0:07:24.516 that most people wouldn't just know in their average lives. 0:07:24.556 --> 0:07:28.356 I'd spend a great deal of time fully enmeshed in 0:07:28.436 --> 0:07:31.076 this topic. For reasons I didn't understand, and to be 0:07:31.156 --> 0:07:34.356 quite honest, my family was concerned about that. You know, 0:07:35.076 --> 0:07:36.956 why would I be so focused on this? And I 0:07:36.956 --> 0:07:39.276 would just always say, I'm not sure, but I just 0:07:39.316 --> 0:07:41.996 feel like I have to know as much as I can. 0:07:42.236 --> 0:07:45.076 Yeah, I know, it's the whole thing is kind of crazy. 0:07:45.316 --> 0:07:45.716 It is. 0:07:46.356 --> 0:07:48.436 Give me a sense of what you learned from that 0:07:48.516 --> 0:07:51.716 immersion in all of that, What did you learn that 0:07:51.796 --> 0:07:54.156 prepared you for what happened that day. 0:07:54.516 --> 0:07:57.556 One of the biggest things I learned is that as adults, 0:07:57.636 --> 0:08:00.196 we spend a lot of time talking to kids, and 0:08:00.236 --> 0:08:03.876 I don't know that we listen as much as we should. 0:08:04.276 --> 0:08:06.076 And when I use the word listen, I don't just 0:08:06.196 --> 0:08:10.436 mean verbally, I mean through their writings. I had an 0:08:10.436 --> 0:08:13.636 open window to some of them, just based on topics 0:08:13.676 --> 0:08:16.836 we researched or we talked about, or they chose to 0:08:16.876 --> 0:08:20.956 write about when they could do free writing. And I 0:08:20.996 --> 0:08:26.156 looked at writings taken from the attackers at Columbine. Several 0:08:26.156 --> 0:08:29.076 of those things were things they wrote for class assignments, 0:08:29.596 --> 0:08:33.156 and so I think I started realizing if kids are 0:08:33.196 --> 0:08:37.316 writing about violence, especially if it's connected to prior events 0:08:37.716 --> 0:08:41.756 or prior people in history who committed atrocities, then I 0:08:41.796 --> 0:08:44.516 needed to pay attention. Those all became red flags. 0:08:45.476 --> 0:08:50.156 Did you all these years, when you're immersing yourself into subject, 0:08:51.756 --> 0:08:54.556 do you imagine that one day you would be face 0:08:54.636 --> 0:08:56.276 to face with a potential shooter. 0:08:56.596 --> 0:08:59.636 You know, I've never been asked that and never really 0:08:59.636 --> 0:09:01.356 thought about it. So I'll tell you the first thing 0:09:01.356 --> 0:09:03.396 that came into my head when you asked that was 0:09:03.876 --> 0:09:07.716 I had ironically had a dream a couple of times. Now. 0:09:07.796 --> 0:09:10.436 The scenario that played out here was nothing at all 0:09:10.556 --> 0:09:12.996 like the dream I had had, but it did involve 0:09:13.036 --> 0:09:16.116 a kid bringing a gun to school and me somehow 0:09:16.156 --> 0:09:21.516 being involved in a peaceful resolution. And I assumed at 0:09:21.516 --> 0:09:24.076 the time that that was just because I had was 0:09:24.116 --> 0:09:28.956 reading so much about this. I really thought that the intention. 0:09:29.116 --> 0:09:31.716 I really thought that God's plan was just for me 0:09:31.796 --> 0:09:34.116 to have a passion that I could go and talk 0:09:34.196 --> 0:09:36.596 to other people about, to try to convince them of 0:09:36.756 --> 0:09:40.276 importance of not just school safety, but of mental health 0:09:40.396 --> 0:09:44.196 and in brain health. And I wanted people to pay 0:09:44.236 --> 0:09:47.116 attention to kids who were struggling. I felt like there 0:09:47.156 --> 0:09:48.956 were a lot that had flown under the radar that 0:09:48.996 --> 0:09:51.596 I had probably missed, you know, as a teacher and 0:09:51.956 --> 0:09:57.196 becoming a counselor could see more of just in their 0:09:57.236 --> 0:09:59.956 faces and their words that they were struggling, so that 0:09:59.956 --> 0:10:01.436 that could bring them in then, you know, and have 0:10:01.476 --> 0:10:05.716 those conversations. So I don't I never really thought that 0:10:05.716 --> 0:10:08.076 that would happen here, But in the moment when I 0:10:08.116 --> 0:10:12.036 realized what was going on, I did have a flash 0:10:12.196 --> 0:10:14.916 before my eyes. It was you know, people talk sometimes 0:10:14.956 --> 0:10:18.356 about if you're going to pass away, sometimes your life 0:10:18.356 --> 0:10:20.356 will flash before your eyes, But for me, it was 0:10:20.396 --> 0:10:23.116 not that. It was a flash of all these things 0:10:23.156 --> 0:10:26.596 I had read and researched, and I remember thinking, you know, 0:10:27.556 --> 0:10:29.476 I was kind of like Noah, and I was trying 0:10:29.476 --> 0:10:31.756 to build an arc and nobody had ever seen it rain. 0:10:32.236 --> 0:10:34.756 So people didn't really want to talk about school violence. 0:10:34.796 --> 0:10:36.156 They just it was kind of the head and the 0:10:36.156 --> 0:10:38.876 sand mentality that if we just pretend that it's not 0:10:38.916 --> 0:10:41.116 going to happen, or we don't talk about it, we're 0:10:41.156 --> 0:10:42.996 not going to invite it in. And so I sat 0:10:43.036 --> 0:10:46.036 there on those moments when I realized how serious this 0:10:46.236 --> 0:10:49.796 was and thought for such a time as this, And 0:10:50.196 --> 0:10:52.076 you know, Esther is one of my favorite characters in 0:10:52.076 --> 0:10:54.956 the Bible, and I remember thinking, wow, Lord, you know 0:10:55.796 --> 0:10:58.836 of all the hundreds, you know, of thousands of schools, 0:10:58.916 --> 0:11:01.596 and probably as many kids are more. You know, you 0:11:02.076 --> 0:11:05.196 brought that kid to Sycamore Middle School, and you you 0:11:05.276 --> 0:11:08.116 brought him to me. And it's like, all of a sudden, 0:11:08.156 --> 0:11:11.676 I had this moment of like, this is why. And 0:11:11.716 --> 0:11:14.276 I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. I still can't, 0:11:14.316 --> 0:11:16.796 as you can tell, obviously, I still stand in all 0:11:16.836 --> 0:11:17.036 of that. 0:11:19.036 --> 0:11:22.596 Let's talk about that morning. So this is twenty sixteen. 0:11:23.436 --> 0:11:24.996 Do you remember what's the exact date. 0:11:25.516 --> 0:11:28.676 September twenty eighth, And I remember that because it was 0:11:28.716 --> 0:11:30.756 the day before my fortieth birthday. 0:11:32.356 --> 0:11:34.676 So it's the beginning of the school year. You were 0:11:34.756 --> 0:11:39.436 three weeks in or so. And is it anything unusual 0:11:39.436 --> 0:11:41.996 about that? Is it a day unfolding like any other? 0:11:42.036 --> 0:11:44.636 At the beginning, it's a day unfolding. I was training 0:11:44.676 --> 0:11:48.156 to run my first marathon, and I had run nine 0:11:48.196 --> 0:11:50.956 point six nine miles that morning before the treadmill overheated 0:11:50.996 --> 0:11:53.436 and went outside to finish that last little you know, 0:11:54.076 --> 0:11:56.236 part around running around our pool, just so I could 0:11:56.276 --> 0:11:57.436 say I had my ten miles in. 0:11:57.916 --> 0:12:00.036 Yeah, I got oh you're I'm a runner too, but 0:12:01.556 --> 0:12:04.476 oh yeah, I recognize the signs you're serious. 0:12:06.476 --> 0:12:11.156 Yeah, so I knew, you know, I got dressed for school. 0:12:11.316 --> 0:12:14.876 I wore clothes that later I would look down at 0:12:14.876 --> 0:12:16.756 my lap and think, you know, if I were going 0:12:16.836 --> 0:12:18.356 to die in this, if this was gonna be my 0:12:18.356 --> 0:12:20.516 crime scene photo, I would addressed better. I would have 0:12:20.596 --> 0:12:22.676 not had on this eight dollar skirt that I don't 0:12:22.676 --> 0:12:25.676 even like, you know, I think I think God gave 0:12:25.676 --> 0:12:27.316 me some moments of humor in the midst of this, 0:12:27.436 --> 0:12:29.676 But yeah, dropped my I'll describe that. 0:12:29.716 --> 0:12:31.756 You what what was the skirt? You were were you 0:12:31.756 --> 0:12:37.556 were skirt? It was? What's going on over there? 0:12:37.636 --> 0:12:40.396 Well, because the previous day I had been in classroom 0:12:40.396 --> 0:12:42.596 guidance all day, and I knew that I was going 0:12:42.636 --> 0:12:45.836 to be back in my office trying to unearth all 0:12:45.876 --> 0:12:48.316 the paperwork emails I'd gotten the day before, so I 0:12:48.356 --> 0:12:50.716 probably wouldn't be leaving it. Not many people would see me. 0:12:51.156 --> 0:12:53.756 You know, when you're when you're about to experience the 0:12:54.116 --> 0:12:56.356 best and the worst day of your life, the biggest 0:12:56.356 --> 0:12:58.756 crisis you'll ever face, you are not only are you 0:12:58.836 --> 0:13:00.676 not going to be prepared for it, you most likely 0:13:00.716 --> 0:13:03.916 will not be dressed for it. So I wasn't, you know, 0:13:03.996 --> 0:13:05.156 And I thought I was just going to be here. 0:13:05.156 --> 0:13:06.876 I knew the kids wouldn't care what I had on. 0:13:07.076 --> 0:13:08.636 I'd be sitting behind my desk all day. It was 0:13:08.636 --> 0:13:10.756 a comfortable skirt, but it was the black and white 0:13:10.836 --> 0:13:13.916 palm tree printed skirts, and like I said, I didn't 0:13:13.916 --> 0:13:15.596 even really like it, but it was eight dollars, so 0:13:15.636 --> 0:13:18.556 I bought it. I have three of them. 0:13:18.596 --> 0:13:22.436 Now, yeah, well it's your lucky skirt at. 0:13:22.356 --> 0:13:26.956 Skirt, Yeah, but yeah. I dropped my oldest son off 0:13:26.956 --> 0:13:30.276 at his coach's house, because kids, if your parent's a teacher, 0:13:30.316 --> 0:13:32.156 you have to be at school first thing in the morning, 0:13:32.196 --> 0:13:34.356 way before everybody else, so he would ride to school 0:13:34.436 --> 0:13:36.956 later with his coach. I dropped our youngest son off 0:13:36.956 --> 0:13:39.676 at daycare, and I came to school and I pulled 0:13:39.676 --> 0:13:42.076 in the parking lot and I saw all these kids 0:13:42.156 --> 0:13:44.676 like starting to gather outside, and I remember thinking, oh, 0:13:44.676 --> 0:13:46.556 my goodness, you know, it's a kitchen on fire. What's 0:13:46.596 --> 0:13:48.636 going on? So I jumped out of the car kind 0:13:48.636 --> 0:13:52.116 of started moving toward the kids and realized that September 0:13:52.156 --> 0:13:55.396 twenty eighth of twenty sixteen was National cu at the 0:13:55.396 --> 0:13:58.596 Pole Day, the one day a year student so choose 0:13:58.636 --> 0:14:00.876 they can gather at the base of their school's flagpole 0:14:00.956 --> 0:14:04.156 for prayer. And so my intention was to run in here, 0:14:04.276 --> 0:14:06.356 throw my things down behind my desk, and run back 0:14:06.356 --> 0:14:09.436 out to supervise, because you leave very many middle school 0:14:09.516 --> 0:14:11.716 kids alone for very long, and something's going to happen 0:14:11.716 --> 0:14:13.436 that's going to require a lot of paperwork on the 0:14:13.476 --> 0:14:15.556 part of an adult. And so I just thought i'd 0:14:15.636 --> 0:14:18.756 run out in supervising. And that was just never meant 0:14:18.796 --> 0:14:21.556 to be because while I was here, standing here from 0:14:21.916 --> 0:14:24.876 from my things down, glanced at my calendar, this young 0:14:24.916 --> 0:14:29.676 man came in and and I had met I recognized 0:14:29.756 --> 0:14:32.436 him immediately because I just met with him the friday before. 0:14:33.236 --> 0:14:36.876 I remember when he came in, I realized his defenses 0:14:36.916 --> 0:14:39.996 were way up. But I also realized pretty quickly I'd 0:14:40.036 --> 0:14:43.076 never seen that kid before, and that bothered me. And 0:14:43.116 --> 0:14:45.556 I said, hey, you know, I don't think we've met, 0:14:45.636 --> 0:14:48.716 and so I kind of introduced myself and and I said, 0:14:48.716 --> 0:14:50.596 you know, I understand your you're kind of new to 0:14:50.636 --> 0:14:52.796 our school. And he said, you know, yes, ma'am. I 0:14:52.836 --> 0:14:55.676 came in last year and I said, okay, well that 0:14:55.676 --> 0:14:57.916 that kind of explains that, you know, and we're newly 0:14:58.036 --> 0:15:00.436 into this eighth grade year, so it just hadn't met him, 0:15:00.436 --> 0:15:02.396 and so I just I just told to me, I 0:15:02.476 --> 0:15:04.596 just thought maybe we could kind of check in see 0:15:04.636 --> 0:15:08.476 how things are going. And he sat down right across 0:15:08.516 --> 0:15:11.356 from my desk here I had two brown chairs. I've 0:15:11.436 --> 0:15:13.396 learned that some kids, if they talk to you, they 0:15:13.436 --> 0:15:16.996 want a barrier between you and them for comfort purposes. 0:15:17.276 --> 0:15:19.476 Other kids, I have a chair that sits right beside 0:15:19.476 --> 0:15:21.276 my desk because some of them they want their needs 0:15:21.316 --> 0:15:23.596 to be touching yours. They're fine with being close to you. 0:15:24.116 --> 0:15:25.996 And so he had sat down across from me, and 0:15:26.036 --> 0:15:28.396 we had just kind of started talking, and then all 0:15:28.396 --> 0:15:30.476 of a sudden, it was kind of like the damn 0:15:30.516 --> 0:15:33.676 broke and there were all these things in his life 0:15:33.716 --> 0:15:36.076 that I felt like he'd been holding on to that 0:15:36.156 --> 0:15:39.516 he just let pour out and I kind of just 0:15:39.556 --> 0:15:42.396 skooted back in my chair and let him talk. And 0:15:42.476 --> 0:15:46.276 he did. But one of the things that inside of me, 0:15:46.356 --> 0:15:49.516 in hindsight, was another red flag that was raised, was 0:15:49.916 --> 0:15:53.516 the fact that he was telling me this story that 0:15:53.636 --> 0:15:58.116 I knew aspects of it were most likely not possible, 0:15:59.116 --> 0:16:01.396 but there was just enough of it that some of 0:16:01.436 --> 0:16:04.396 it could have been probable. And I remember writing some 0:16:04.516 --> 0:16:07.276 notes on the sticky note because this was a Friday, 0:16:07.316 --> 0:16:09.396 and I thought, I'm going to look these things up 0:16:09.396 --> 0:16:12.356 over the weekend and see if this is even possible. 0:16:13.556 --> 0:16:17.836 But what really struck me was, I think this kid 0:16:17.876 --> 0:16:22.116 believes this story. You know, he's weaving this together, and 0:16:22.156 --> 0:16:23.076 I think he'd believes. 0:16:23.316 --> 0:16:24.396 I know you don't want to tell me this story, 0:16:24.436 --> 0:16:26.676 but what sort of a story is he telling you? 0:16:26.676 --> 0:16:28.596 Can you give me just a sense. 0:16:28.356 --> 0:16:32.516 Of just a story about some things that he was 0:16:32.596 --> 0:16:36.596 involved in that were very adult like, kind of like 0:16:36.716 --> 0:16:40.516 if I told you a story about me owning a 0:16:40.556 --> 0:16:43.356 fortune five hundred company, right, you know, I'm sitting here, 0:16:43.396 --> 0:16:44.996 I'm an adult. I can tell you this story. I 0:16:44.996 --> 0:16:47.836 can probably create a pretty good one. But the whole 0:16:47.836 --> 0:16:50.356 time you're to me thinking, well, I've never heard of 0:16:50.396 --> 0:16:53.396 Molly Eedgens before, you know. So there were pieces of 0:16:53.436 --> 0:16:57.036 it that just did not seem possible. But what fascinated 0:16:57.116 --> 0:17:00.756 me was I thought, I think this kid believes what 0:17:00.876 --> 0:17:04.116 he's telling me, and I think he believes that I 0:17:04.156 --> 0:17:09.476 believe him, And so obviously I was concerned, so and 0:17:09.516 --> 0:17:12.076 of course I learned a lot about psychology that I 0:17:12.116 --> 0:17:15.436 would not have known otherwise. I've read the works of 0:17:15.476 --> 0:17:18.356 doctor Peter Langman, who is considered to be one of 0:17:18.396 --> 0:17:21.956 the world's leading experts on mass s sheotings that happened 0:17:22.076 --> 0:17:27.636 with teenagers, especially in school environments, and doctor Langman's work 0:17:27.796 --> 0:17:30.916 was crucial to me in the moments that this was happening, 0:17:31.036 --> 0:17:34.276 because I was able to recognize, based on all of 0:17:34.316 --> 0:17:38.196 these other case studies, what I believed was a psychosis 0:17:38.436 --> 0:17:45.156 or psychoses in process, and began to learn a very 0:17:45.236 --> 0:17:52.276 valuable lesson that day that reality is really about perspective. 0:17:53.116 --> 0:17:55.996 It doesn't really matter what's real, It only matters what 0:17:56.036 --> 0:17:59.396 people perceive to be real. And so in these moments 0:17:59.436 --> 0:18:02.956 with this child, it became crucial for me to accept 0:18:03.036 --> 0:18:06.756 his reality. And I do remember praying you know Lord 0:18:06.796 --> 0:18:09.916 helped me to not get lost in this. But I 0:18:09.996 --> 0:18:12.156 had to try to meet him where he was. We 0:18:12.236 --> 0:18:13.996 use those words a lot, and meet the child where 0:18:13.996 --> 0:18:17.436 they are, and that was very important. I don't think 0:18:17.516 --> 0:18:22.396 that that piece would have occurred had I not had 0:18:22.836 --> 0:18:27.276 all this background research. So he talked for forty five 0:18:27.316 --> 0:18:29.796 minutes and I remember thinking, he's missed an entire class period. 0:18:29.796 --> 0:18:31.636 I've got to get him back to class. And so 0:18:31.956 --> 0:18:34.116 I said to him myself, listen, you have you know, 0:18:34.156 --> 0:18:36.636 you've really unburdened a lot today, you've shared a lot. 0:18:36.916 --> 0:18:39.356 Would you like to come back maybe one day next 0:18:39.356 --> 0:18:41.716 week and then we can meet again and talk and 0:18:42.156 --> 0:18:45.276 and he he said yes, he would like to do that, 0:18:45.396 --> 0:18:46.956 and so I wrote his name on my list. 0:18:47.556 --> 0:18:49.036 That's the crucial moment. 0:18:48.956 --> 0:18:50.956 The crucial moment, oh shuts. 0:18:50.956 --> 0:18:53.556 In this whole. I mean, I know where there's many 0:18:53.636 --> 0:18:56.996 much more to the story, but that moment, you've established 0:18:56.996 --> 0:19:00.556 a connection with him, and you've you're the safe place 0:19:00.596 --> 0:19:04.156 he can go, and that's why he comes back, I think. 0:19:04.236 --> 0:19:07.436 So. I think there were several things. The biggest one 0:19:07.476 --> 0:19:09.916 I was willing to listen. I didn't in a I 0:19:09.916 --> 0:19:13.396 didn't challenge what he said. I didn't point out anything 0:19:13.436 --> 0:19:16.916 that I thought was a falsehood. I just listened and 0:19:17.116 --> 0:19:19.356 gave him a place to share that and then offered 0:19:19.396 --> 0:19:22.156 to listen more. And so I think you're right. You 0:19:22.196 --> 0:19:24.916 know it was a it was a safe place, and 0:19:25.356 --> 0:19:27.556 that's most likely why he did come back. 0:19:27.876 --> 0:19:32.196 So you're looking at this boy he's boy, and he's 0:19:32.236 --> 0:19:35.676 telling you a story that is in part maybe part real, 0:19:35.756 --> 0:19:39.116 with part fantasy. And what sort of other signs is 0:19:39.156 --> 0:19:42.876 he giving you? Is he is he agitated? Is he 0:19:43.956 --> 0:19:45.636 hostile to you? Is he No? 0:19:46.636 --> 0:19:48.796 Quite the opposite. Actually, when I look back on that, 0:19:48.876 --> 0:19:52.516 I think about how he was very articulate, he was 0:19:52.676 --> 0:19:57.196 very bright. We made good eye contact, there was good conversation, 0:19:57.996 --> 0:20:01.876 you know. He I did realize that I had perceived 0:20:01.916 --> 0:20:08.476 him just in hindsight, as a quieter student. His grades 0:20:08.556 --> 0:20:12.316 were solid, he did not have a massive disciplinary record. 0:20:12.916 --> 0:20:14.916 When we talk about a lot of these kids who 0:20:14.956 --> 0:20:18.196 commit these atrocities, one of the things that people fail 0:20:18.276 --> 0:20:20.756 to recognize is that a lot of times they are 0:20:20.796 --> 0:20:24.316 the outliers. They are not on the radar of anyone. 0:20:24.716 --> 0:20:27.956 Sometimes they are, but a lot of the times they're not. 0:20:28.836 --> 0:20:31.956 And that is because if someone is suffering from a psychosis, 0:20:32.356 --> 0:20:35.796 they can be psychotic in one way and function perfectly 0:20:35.876 --> 0:20:38.956 normally in many other ways. They can hold jobs, they 0:20:38.956 --> 0:20:40.676 can come to school, they can do work, they can 0:20:40.676 --> 0:20:44.436 participate in class discussion, they can have friends. A lot 0:20:44.436 --> 0:20:47.036 of them become very good, especially the older, they get 0:20:47.156 --> 0:20:49.916 at covering up what they perceive to be taboo behavior, 0:20:50.476 --> 0:20:53.236 and I think that some of the things that he 0:20:53.276 --> 0:20:56.916 was experiencing, he was testing the waters with me to 0:20:56.956 --> 0:20:59.236 see how I would react that Friday, to see if 0:20:59.276 --> 0:21:02.116 I would react strongly, or if I would say, you know, well, 0:21:02.156 --> 0:21:05.716 that's not possible, or if I would question what he 0:21:05.796 --> 0:21:10.076 was saying. And I didn't, And that, to me was 0:21:10.116 --> 0:21:13.596 another crucial piece, because you know, you fast forward to 0:21:13.636 --> 0:21:16.076 the next week, we come back on Monday, I had 0:21:16.076 --> 0:21:18.676 this running list of kids to see. We try to 0:21:18.716 --> 0:21:20.756 see them in the order that they request to see them, 0:21:20.836 --> 0:21:23.596 kind of like they've taken a ticket, unless obviously it's 0:21:23.596 --> 0:21:25.836 a crisis situation that then involves us to bump them, 0:21:25.836 --> 0:21:29.516