1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:25,036 Speaker 1: Bushkin. Welcome back to Medal of Honor Stories of Courage. 2 00:00:25,516 --> 00:00:28,636 Speaker 1: I'm Malcolm Glawell. Today we have something a little different 3 00:00:28,676 --> 00:00:30,916 Speaker 1: for you. A few weeks ago I spoke to a 4 00:00:30,956 --> 00:00:34,596 Speaker 1: woman named Molly Hudgens. You likely don't know Molly or 5 00:00:34,636 --> 00:00:37,876 Speaker 1: her story, but I think you should. Molly is a 6 00:00:37,916 --> 00:00:41,556 Speaker 1: recipient of the Citizens Medal of Honor, which was first 7 00:00:41,636 --> 00:00:45,556 Speaker 1: awarded in two thousand and eight to recognize ordinary Americans 8 00:00:45,596 --> 00:00:49,956 Speaker 1: whose actions quote epitomize the concept of service beyond self, 9 00:00:50,436 --> 00:00:54,636 Speaker 1: above and beyond their call of duty, whatever it may be. 10 00:00:56,116 --> 00:00:59,076 Speaker 1: In Molly's case, her duty was as a guidance counselor 11 00:00:59,316 --> 00:01:02,956 Speaker 1: at Sycamore Middle School in Tennessee, where in twenty sixteen, 12 00:01:03,196 --> 00:01:05,876 Speaker 1: she came face to face with the potential school shooter 13 00:01:06,596 --> 00:01:09,396 Speaker 1: and managed to talk him out of it. Through the 14 00:01:09,436 --> 00:01:12,156 Speaker 1: course of the conversation, you'll hear in Molly many of 15 00:01:12,156 --> 00:01:17,196 Speaker 1: the qualities we've tried to highlight in this series so far, faith, humility, 16 00:01:17,516 --> 00:01:22,036 Speaker 1: dedication to service, and an incredible ability to think quickly 17 00:01:22,116 --> 00:01:25,796 Speaker 1: under pressure, and of course, courage. 18 00:01:39,596 --> 00:01:41,396 Speaker 2: Molly, good morning, How are you. 19 00:01:41,796 --> 00:01:44,636 Speaker 1: I'm good? Are you are? You're in your office at school. 20 00:01:44,676 --> 00:01:46,916 Speaker 2: I'm in my office at school. Sure I am. 21 00:01:47,276 --> 00:01:50,876 Speaker 1: And you're in where you're in Pleasantville? But no, what's 22 00:01:50,916 --> 00:01:51,556 Speaker 1: the day. 23 00:01:51,436 --> 00:01:55,156 Speaker 2: Of the town pleasant View, Tennessee, View, Tennessee. 24 00:01:55,876 --> 00:01:57,956 Speaker 1: That's not where all the country stars live. 25 00:01:58,636 --> 00:02:00,516 Speaker 2: No, they do not live in this part of the world. 26 00:02:02,276 --> 00:02:04,516 Speaker 1: And how long? How long have you been teaching them? 27 00:02:04,596 --> 00:02:07,276 Speaker 2: I just finished my twenty fifth year. I have spent 28 00:02:07,436 --> 00:02:10,476 Speaker 2: my entire educational career. I got hired here at twenty 29 00:02:10,476 --> 00:02:12,556 Speaker 2: two and so I've only worked here. 30 00:02:12,996 --> 00:02:16,796 Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, did were you always a guidance counselor No? 31 00:02:16,996 --> 00:02:20,476 Speaker 2: I started out actually as a teacher. I taught seventh 32 00:02:20,516 --> 00:02:23,676 Speaker 2: and eighth grade language arts for eight years before I 33 00:02:23,716 --> 00:02:26,836 Speaker 2: moved to the counseling departments. So this will be my 34 00:02:26,916 --> 00:02:30,116 Speaker 2: I'll be starting my nineteenth year in the counseling department. 35 00:02:30,556 --> 00:02:36,276 Speaker 1: Yeah. And so you came to Sycamore straight out of college. 36 00:02:36,436 --> 00:02:40,116 Speaker 2: I sure did. I was a desperation higher our principal. 37 00:02:40,356 --> 00:02:43,916 Speaker 2: Our principal had three teachers who were all leading consecutively 38 00:02:43,996 --> 00:02:46,596 Speaker 2: on maternity leave, and I was planning to be a 39 00:02:46,676 --> 00:02:49,236 Speaker 2: high school English teacher. This was a middle school, but 40 00:02:49,276 --> 00:02:51,116 Speaker 2: I felt like it would be a way to get 41 00:02:51,116 --> 00:02:54,156 Speaker 2: my foot in the door, and so I agreed to 42 00:02:54,196 --> 00:02:56,236 Speaker 2: do it. I taught fifth grade, sixth grade, and seventh 43 00:02:56,276 --> 00:02:59,516 Speaker 2: grade math, language, Arts, science, social stay all four subjects 44 00:02:59,556 --> 00:03:02,316 Speaker 2: over the course of that one semester, and by the 45 00:03:02,436 --> 00:03:04,796 Speaker 2: end of it, I just loved the school so much. 46 00:03:04,956 --> 00:03:06,996 Speaker 2: I didn't think I could leave. I knew the kids 47 00:03:06,996 --> 00:03:09,556 Speaker 2: would come and go, but the staff probably would. And 48 00:03:10,076 --> 00:03:12,436 Speaker 2: that is so true of the culture here. I mean, 49 00:03:12,436 --> 00:03:15,836 Speaker 2: our principal has never worked She's going to be starting 50 00:03:15,876 --> 00:03:19,516 Speaker 2: her thirtieth year here at Sycamore, never works anywhere else. 51 00:03:20,076 --> 00:03:22,756 Speaker 2: Our assistant principal has only worked in our county twenty 52 00:03:22,756 --> 00:03:25,516 Speaker 2: five years. I've only been here, you know. So people 53 00:03:25,556 --> 00:03:28,556 Speaker 2: tend to come here and stay, and that is such 54 00:03:28,716 --> 00:03:31,996 Speaker 2: an important piece I think of our story is the 55 00:03:32,036 --> 00:03:34,676 Speaker 2: culture that we have. People are very embedded. 56 00:03:35,196 --> 00:03:37,876 Speaker 1: Why do you think people stay? What's special about the school? 57 00:03:38,636 --> 00:03:41,676 Speaker 2: Well, because it's very much a family, and just like 58 00:03:41,716 --> 00:03:44,596 Speaker 2: a family, we don't always agree, we don't always get along. 59 00:03:45,516 --> 00:03:48,596 Speaker 2: That people who work here want to be here. We 60 00:03:48,676 --> 00:03:51,916 Speaker 2: are notorious for hiring our former students. I think we 61 00:03:51,996 --> 00:03:55,876 Speaker 2: have eight of them on staff right now. People come back. 62 00:03:56,036 --> 00:03:58,756 Speaker 2: You know it's a good place to be. You know 63 00:03:58,836 --> 00:04:01,196 Speaker 2: that you're loved and cared about. And we use the 64 00:04:01,196 --> 00:04:04,916 Speaker 2: word family a lot to describe Sycamore, and so it 65 00:04:04,916 --> 00:04:07,596 Speaker 2: would be hard to leave your family. So for me, 66 00:04:08,436 --> 00:04:10,196 Speaker 2: it's been impossib to leave here. 67 00:04:11,236 --> 00:04:14,996 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So you'd been there for years, and 68 00:04:15,036 --> 00:04:18,196 Speaker 1: you had told me you had had prior to what 69 00:04:18,316 --> 00:04:23,876 Speaker 1: happened that day, you had been increasingly engaged with the 70 00:04:23,956 --> 00:04:28,516 Speaker 1: question of school violence. Tell me about how did it 71 00:04:28,556 --> 00:04:31,756 Speaker 1: come to your attention in those in that period. 72 00:04:32,756 --> 00:04:35,356 Speaker 2: So my first year here at Sycamore was the ninety 73 00:04:35,356 --> 00:04:38,836 Speaker 2: eight ninety nine school year when we had six mass 74 00:04:38,836 --> 00:04:41,516 Speaker 2: shootings across our country that culminated with the shooting at 75 00:04:41,516 --> 00:04:44,356 Speaker 2: Columbine on April twentieth of nineteen ninety nine. And I 76 00:04:44,396 --> 00:04:46,916 Speaker 2: remember that day vividly. I went home, and that was 77 00:04:46,956 --> 00:04:49,116 Speaker 2: when we had just started having twenty four hour news 78 00:04:49,196 --> 00:04:51,876 Speaker 2: coverage and you could watch it all day long, and 79 00:04:51,916 --> 00:04:55,796 Speaker 2: I was I was just fascinated, not by I think 80 00:04:55,836 --> 00:04:57,476 Speaker 2: a lot of the details that most of the general 81 00:04:57,516 --> 00:05:00,676 Speaker 2: public wanted to know about the specific situation, But what 82 00:05:00,716 --> 00:05:03,276 Speaker 2: I couldn't write my mind around is how could two 83 00:05:03,316 --> 00:05:06,636 Speaker 2: boys create a plan of this magnitude over a year's 84 00:05:06,716 --> 00:05:10,156 Speaker 2: time and nobody know about it? And so I started researching, 85 00:05:10,396 --> 00:05:14,516 Speaker 2: literally just googled anything that I could find about mass 86 00:05:14,516 --> 00:05:17,596 Speaker 2: shootings that had happened on school campuses. I read every book. 87 00:05:17,956 --> 00:05:20,596 Speaker 2: I think I own every book that's been written about 88 00:05:20,596 --> 00:05:24,236 Speaker 2: a school shooting all because in my mind, I thought, 89 00:05:25,236 --> 00:05:27,236 Speaker 2: if I could, what if we had a kid like 90 00:05:27,276 --> 00:05:29,276 Speaker 2: that here at school? What if he was in my class? 91 00:05:29,876 --> 00:05:32,916 Speaker 2: Would I be able to recognize that child was in trouble? 92 00:05:33,036 --> 00:05:33,316 Speaker 2: Is there? 93 00:05:33,396 --> 00:05:33,556 Speaker 1: You know? 94 00:05:33,596 --> 00:05:35,436 Speaker 2: In my mind, I thought, is there a way to 95 00:05:35,556 --> 00:05:38,716 Speaker 2: interrupt this process? To find them when they're young enough 96 00:05:39,076 --> 00:05:42,836 Speaker 2: that you could then intervene and change that pathway, change 97 00:05:42,836 --> 00:05:47,796 Speaker 2: that direction. And even I spent so much time doing research, 98 00:05:47,836 --> 00:05:50,276 Speaker 2: I ended up on the Homeland Security watch list at 99 00:05:50,276 --> 00:05:53,516 Speaker 2: one points. And I understand now why, Yeah, I mean 100 00:05:53,556 --> 00:05:57,236 Speaker 2: I was contacted by someone and just stated, why are 101 00:05:57,276 --> 00:06:00,156 Speaker 2: you looking into so much of this? And I think 102 00:06:01,596 --> 00:06:04,756 Speaker 2: in hindsight, I mean, I even tried to find specifically 103 00:06:04,836 --> 00:06:08,476 Speaker 2: writings that were taken from at the time those two 104 00:06:08,516 --> 00:06:11,916 Speaker 2: particular attackers at Columbine, because I felt like, if I 105 00:06:11,996 --> 00:06:14,996 Speaker 2: want to find a kid like this, I'm going to 106 00:06:14,996 --> 00:06:18,036 Speaker 2: have to understand them, and I'm an English teacher. Most 107 00:06:18,076 --> 00:06:20,756 Speaker 2: of what is going to come out would possibly come 108 00:06:20,796 --> 00:06:23,876 Speaker 2: through writings that they would do in class, and so 109 00:06:24,716 --> 00:06:29,356 Speaker 2: that started the path. I spent ten years doing that recording, 110 00:06:29,396 --> 00:06:32,236 Speaker 2: writing down, taking notes on everything that I knew, and 111 00:06:32,276 --> 00:06:34,996 Speaker 2: I went to our director's schools and so listen, there's 112 00:06:35,036 --> 00:06:37,396 Speaker 2: only eighteen school counselors in our county, but we don't 113 00:06:37,436 --> 00:06:40,276 Speaker 2: really have many trainings that are geared toward what we do. 114 00:06:40,836 --> 00:06:44,036 Speaker 2: You know, is it possible that I could, because by 115 00:06:44,076 --> 00:06:46,436 Speaker 2: that point I'd moved to the counseling department. You know, 116 00:06:46,556 --> 00:06:48,516 Speaker 2: is it possible for me to do a training? I've 117 00:06:48,556 --> 00:06:52,236 Speaker 2: written one. It's called Recognizing Red Flags an Educator's Role 118 00:06:52,276 --> 00:06:54,396 Speaker 2: in Preventing School violence, and it was an in depth 119 00:06:54,396 --> 00:07:00,836 Speaker 2: psychological analysis of about thirty school shooters. So I think 120 00:07:00,916 --> 00:07:04,276 Speaker 2: that God was preparing me in a mighty way. He 121 00:07:04,356 --> 00:07:07,316 Speaker 2: gave me eighteen years of talking to kids, both in 122 00:07:07,396 --> 00:07:10,796 Speaker 2: classroom settings and individuals, and he gave me all this 123 00:07:10,996 --> 00:07:15,396 Speaker 2: content knowledge that I had learned about psychopathy. I'd learned 124 00:07:15,436 --> 00:07:21,116 Speaker 2: about psychosis. I've learned about even hostage negotiations and things 125 00:07:21,116 --> 00:07:24,516 Speaker 2: that most people wouldn't just know in their average lives. 126 00:07:24,556 --> 00:07:28,356 Speaker 2: I'd spend a great deal of time fully enmeshed in 127 00:07:28,436 --> 00:07:31,076 Speaker 2: this topic. For reasons I didn't understand, and to be 128 00:07:31,156 --> 00:07:34,356 Speaker 2: quite honest, my family was concerned about that. You know, 129 00:07:35,076 --> 00:07:36,956 Speaker 2: why would I be so focused on this? And I 130 00:07:36,956 --> 00:07:39,276 Speaker 2: would just always say, I'm not sure, but I just 131 00:07:39,316 --> 00:07:41,996 Speaker 2: feel like I have to know as much as I can. 132 00:07:42,236 --> 00:07:45,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, it's the whole thing is kind of crazy. 133 00:07:45,316 --> 00:07:45,716 Speaker 2: It is. 134 00:07:46,356 --> 00:07:48,436 Speaker 1: Give me a sense of what you learned from that 135 00:07:48,516 --> 00:07:51,716 Speaker 1: immersion in all of that, What did you learn that 136 00:07:51,796 --> 00:07:54,156 Speaker 1: prepared you for what happened that day. 137 00:07:54,516 --> 00:07:57,556 Speaker 2: One of the biggest things I learned is that as adults, 138 00:07:57,636 --> 00:08:00,196 Speaker 2: we spend a lot of time talking to kids, and 139 00:08:00,236 --> 00:08:03,876 Speaker 2: I don't know that we listen as much as we should. 140 00:08:04,276 --> 00:08:06,076 Speaker 2: And when I use the word listen, I don't just 141 00:08:06,196 --> 00:08:10,436 Speaker 2: mean verbally, I mean through their writings. I had an 142 00:08:10,436 --> 00:08:13,636 Speaker 2: open window to some of them, just based on topics 143 00:08:13,676 --> 00:08:16,836 Speaker 2: we researched or we talked about, or they chose to 144 00:08:16,876 --> 00:08:20,956 Speaker 2: write about when they could do free writing. And I 145 00:08:20,996 --> 00:08:26,156 Speaker 2: looked at writings taken from the attackers at Columbine. Several 146 00:08:26,156 --> 00:08:29,076 Speaker 2: of those things were things they wrote for class assignments, 147 00:08:29,596 --> 00:08:33,156 Speaker 2: and so I think I started realizing if kids are 148 00:08:33,196 --> 00:08:37,316 Speaker 2: writing about violence, especially if it's connected to prior events 149 00:08:37,716 --> 00:08:41,756 Speaker 2: or prior people in history who committed atrocities, then I 150 00:08:41,796 --> 00:08:44,516 Speaker 2: needed to pay attention. Those all became red flags. 151 00:08:45,476 --> 00:08:50,156 Speaker 1: Did you all these years, when you're immersing yourself into subject, 152 00:08:51,756 --> 00:08:54,556 Speaker 1: do you imagine that one day you would be face 153 00:08:54,636 --> 00:08:56,276 Speaker 1: to face with a potential shooter. 154 00:08:56,596 --> 00:08:59,636 Speaker 2: You know, I've never been asked that and never really 155 00:08:59,636 --> 00:09:01,356 Speaker 2: thought about it. So I'll tell you the first thing 156 00:09:01,356 --> 00:09:03,396 Speaker 2: that came into my head when you asked that was 157 00:09:03,876 --> 00:09:07,716 Speaker 2: I had ironically had a dream a couple of times. Now. 158 00:09:07,796 --> 00:09:10,436 Speaker 2: The scenario that played out here was nothing at all 159 00:09:10,556 --> 00:09:12,996 Speaker 2: like the dream I had had, but it did involve 160 00:09:13,036 --> 00:09:16,116 Speaker 2: a kid bringing a gun to school and me somehow 161 00:09:16,156 --> 00:09:21,516 Speaker 2: being involved in a peaceful resolution. And I assumed at 162 00:09:21,516 --> 00:09:24,076 Speaker 2: the time that that was just because I had was 163 00:09:24,116 --> 00:09:28,956 Speaker 2: reading so much about this. I really thought that the intention. 164 00:09:29,116 --> 00:09:31,716 Speaker 2: I really thought that God's plan was just for me 165 00:09:31,796 --> 00:09:34,116 Speaker 2: to have a passion that I could go and talk 166 00:09:34,196 --> 00:09:36,596 Speaker 2: to other people about, to try to convince them of 167 00:09:36,756 --> 00:09:40,276 Speaker 2: importance of not just school safety, but of mental health 168 00:09:40,396 --> 00:09:44,196 Speaker 2: and in brain health. And I wanted people to pay 169 00:09:44,236 --> 00:09:47,116 Speaker 2: attention to kids who were struggling. I felt like there 170 00:09:47,156 --> 00:09:48,956 Speaker 2: were a lot that had flown under the radar that 171 00:09:48,996 --> 00:09:51,596 Speaker 2: I had probably missed, you know, as a teacher and 172 00:09:51,956 --> 00:09:57,196 Speaker 2: becoming a counselor could see more of just in their 173 00:09:57,236 --> 00:09:59,956 Speaker 2: faces and their words that they were struggling, so that 174 00:09:59,956 --> 00:10:01,436 Speaker 2: that could bring them in then, you know, and have 175 00:10:01,476 --> 00:10:05,716 Speaker 2: those conversations. So I don't I never really thought that 176 00:10:05,716 --> 00:10:08,076 Speaker 2: that would happen here, But in the moment when I 177 00:10:08,116 --> 00:10:12,036 Speaker 2: realized what was going on, I did have a flash 178 00:10:12,196 --> 00:10:14,916 Speaker 2: before my eyes. It was you know, people talk sometimes 179 00:10:14,956 --> 00:10:18,356 Speaker 2: about if you're going to pass away, sometimes your life 180 00:10:18,356 --> 00:10:20,356 Speaker 2: will flash before your eyes, But for me, it was 181 00:10:20,396 --> 00:10:23,116 Speaker 2: not that. It was a flash of all these things 182 00:10:23,156 --> 00:10:26,596 Speaker 2: I had read and researched, and I remember thinking, you know, 183 00:10:27,556 --> 00:10:29,476 Speaker 2: I was kind of like Noah, and I was trying 184 00:10:29,476 --> 00:10:31,756 Speaker 2: to build an arc and nobody had ever seen it rain. 185 00:10:32,236 --> 00:10:34,756 Speaker 2: So people didn't really want to talk about school violence. 186 00:10:34,796 --> 00:10:36,156 Speaker 2: They just it was kind of the head and the 187 00:10:36,156 --> 00:10:38,876 Speaker 2: sand mentality that if we just pretend that it's not 188 00:10:38,916 --> 00:10:41,116 Speaker 2: going to happen, or we don't talk about it, we're 189 00:10:41,156 --> 00:10:42,996 Speaker 2: not going to invite it in. And so I sat 190 00:10:43,036 --> 00:10:46,036 Speaker 2: there on those moments when I realized how serious this 191 00:10:46,236 --> 00:10:49,796 Speaker 2: was and thought for such a time as this, And 192 00:10:50,196 --> 00:10:52,076 Speaker 2: you know, Esther is one of my favorite characters in 193 00:10:52,076 --> 00:10:54,956 Speaker 2: the Bible, and I remember thinking, wow, Lord, you know 194 00:10:55,796 --> 00:10:58,836 Speaker 2: of all the hundreds, you know, of thousands of schools, 195 00:10:58,916 --> 00:11:01,596 Speaker 2: and probably as many kids are more. You know, you 196 00:11:02,076 --> 00:11:05,196 Speaker 2: brought that kid to Sycamore Middle School, and you you 197 00:11:05,276 --> 00:11:08,116 Speaker 2: brought him to me. And it's like, all of a sudden, 198 00:11:08,156 --> 00:11:11,676 Speaker 2: I had this moment of like, this is why. And 199 00:11:11,716 --> 00:11:14,276 Speaker 2: I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. I still can't, 200 00:11:14,316 --> 00:11:16,796 Speaker 2: as you can tell, obviously, I still stand in all 201 00:11:16,836 --> 00:11:17,036 Speaker 2: of that. 202 00:11:19,036 --> 00:11:22,596 Speaker 1: Let's talk about that morning. So this is twenty sixteen. 203 00:11:23,436 --> 00:11:24,996 Speaker 1: Do you remember what's the exact date. 204 00:11:25,516 --> 00:11:28,676 Speaker 2: September twenty eighth, And I remember that because it was 205 00:11:28,716 --> 00:11:30,756 Speaker 2: the day before my fortieth birthday. 206 00:11:32,356 --> 00:11:34,676 Speaker 1: So it's the beginning of the school year. You were 207 00:11:34,756 --> 00:11:39,436 Speaker 1: three weeks in or so. And is it anything unusual 208 00:11:39,436 --> 00:11:41,996 Speaker 1: about that? Is it a day unfolding like any other? 209 00:11:42,036 --> 00:11:44,636 Speaker 2: At the beginning, it's a day unfolding. I was training 210 00:11:44,676 --> 00:11:48,156 Speaker 2: to run my first marathon, and I had run nine 211 00:11:48,196 --> 00:11:50,956 Speaker 2: point six nine miles that morning before the treadmill overheated 212 00:11:50,996 --> 00:11:53,436 Speaker 2: and went outside to finish that last little you know, 213 00:11:54,076 --> 00:11:56,236 Speaker 2: part around running around our pool, just so I could 214 00:11:56,276 --> 00:11:57,436 Speaker 2: say I had my ten miles in. 215 00:11:57,916 --> 00:12:00,036 Speaker 1: Yeah, I got oh you're I'm a runner too, but 216 00:12:01,556 --> 00:12:04,476 Speaker 1: oh yeah, I recognize the signs you're serious. 217 00:12:06,476 --> 00:12:11,156 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I knew, you know, I got dressed for school. 218 00:12:11,316 --> 00:12:14,876 Speaker 2: I wore clothes that later I would look down at 219 00:12:14,876 --> 00:12:16,756 Speaker 2: my lap and think, you know, if I were going 220 00:12:16,836 --> 00:12:18,356 Speaker 2: to die in this, if this was gonna be my 221 00:12:18,356 --> 00:12:20,516 Speaker 2: crime scene photo, I would addressed better. I would have 222 00:12:20,596 --> 00:12:22,676 Speaker 2: not had on this eight dollar skirt that I don't 223 00:12:22,676 --> 00:12:25,676 Speaker 2: even like, you know, I think I think God gave 224 00:12:25,676 --> 00:12:27,316 Speaker 2: me some moments of humor in the midst of this, 225 00:12:27,436 --> 00:12:29,676 Speaker 2: But yeah, dropped my I'll describe that. 226 00:12:29,716 --> 00:12:31,756 Speaker 1: You what what was the skirt? You were were you 227 00:12:31,756 --> 00:12:37,556 Speaker 1: were skirt? It was? What's going on over there? 228 00:12:37,636 --> 00:12:40,396 Speaker 2: Well, because the previous day I had been in classroom 229 00:12:40,396 --> 00:12:42,596 Speaker 2: guidance all day, and I knew that I was going 230 00:12:42,636 --> 00:12:45,836 Speaker 2: to be back in my office trying to unearth all 231 00:12:45,876 --> 00:12:48,316 Speaker 2: the paperwork emails I'd gotten the day before, so I 232 00:12:48,356 --> 00:12:50,716 Speaker 2: probably wouldn't be leaving it. Not many people would see me. 233 00:12:51,156 --> 00:12:53,756 Speaker 2: You know, when you're when you're about to experience the 234 00:12:54,116 --> 00:12:56,356 Speaker 2: best and the worst day of your life, the biggest 235 00:12:56,356 --> 00:12:58,756 Speaker 2: crisis you'll ever face, you are not only are you 236 00:12:58,836 --> 00:13:00,676 Speaker 2: not going to be prepared for it, you most likely 237 00:13:00,716 --> 00:13:03,916 Speaker 2: will not be dressed for it. So I wasn't, you know, 238 00:13:03,996 --> 00:13:05,156 Speaker 2: And I thought I was just going to be here. 239 00:13:05,156 --> 00:13:06,876 Speaker 2: I knew the kids wouldn't care what I had on. 240 00:13:07,076 --> 00:13:08,636 Speaker 2: I'd be sitting behind my desk all day. It was 241 00:13:08,636 --> 00:13:10,756 Speaker 2: a comfortable skirt, but it was the black and white 242 00:13:10,836 --> 00:13:13,916 Speaker 2: palm tree printed skirts, and like I said, I didn't 243 00:13:13,916 --> 00:13:15,596 Speaker 2: even really like it, but it was eight dollars, so 244 00:13:15,636 --> 00:13:18,556 Speaker 2: I bought it. I have three of them. 245 00:13:18,596 --> 00:13:22,436 Speaker 1: Now, yeah, well it's your lucky skirt at. 246 00:13:22,356 --> 00:13:26,956 Speaker 2: Skirt, Yeah, but yeah. I dropped my oldest son off 247 00:13:26,956 --> 00:13:30,276 Speaker 2: at his coach's house, because kids, if your parent's a teacher, 248 00:13:30,316 --> 00:13:32,156 Speaker 2: you have to be at school first thing in the morning, 249 00:13:32,196 --> 00:13:34,356 Speaker 2: way before everybody else, so he would ride to school 250 00:13:34,436 --> 00:13:36,956 Speaker 2: later with his coach. I dropped our youngest son off 251 00:13:36,956 --> 00:13:39,676 Speaker 2: at daycare, and I came to school and I pulled 252 00:13:39,676 --> 00:13:42,076 Speaker 2: in the parking lot and I saw all these kids 253 00:13:42,156 --> 00:13:44,676 Speaker 2: like starting to gather outside, and I remember thinking, oh, 254 00:13:44,676 --> 00:13:46,556 Speaker 2: my goodness, you know, it's a kitchen on fire. What's 255 00:13:46,596 --> 00:13:48,636 Speaker 2: going on? So I jumped out of the car kind 256 00:13:48,636 --> 00:13:52,116 Speaker 2: of started moving toward the kids and realized that September 257 00:13:52,156 --> 00:13:55,396 Speaker 2: twenty eighth of twenty sixteen was National cu at the 258 00:13:55,396 --> 00:13:58,596 Speaker 2: Pole Day, the one day a year student so choose 259 00:13:58,636 --> 00:14:00,876 Speaker 2: they can gather at the base of their school's flagpole 260 00:14:00,956 --> 00:14:04,156 Speaker 2: for prayer. And so my intention was to run in here, 261 00:14:04,276 --> 00:14:06,356 Speaker 2: throw my things down behind my desk, and run back 262 00:14:06,356 --> 00:14:09,436 Speaker 2: out to supervise, because you leave very many middle school 263 00:14:09,516 --> 00:14:11,716 Speaker 2: kids alone for very long, and something's going to happen 264 00:14:11,716 --> 00:14:13,436 Speaker 2: that's going to require a lot of paperwork on the 265 00:14:13,476 --> 00:14:15,556 Speaker 2: part of an adult. And so I just thought i'd 266 00:14:15,636 --> 00:14:18,756 Speaker 2: run out in supervising. And that was just never meant 267 00:14:18,796 --> 00:14:21,556 Speaker 2: to be because while I was here, standing here from 268 00:14:21,916 --> 00:14:24,876 Speaker 2: from my things down, glanced at my calendar, this young 269 00:14:24,916 --> 00:14:29,676 Speaker 2: man came in and and I had met I recognized 270 00:14:29,756 --> 00:14:32,436 Speaker 2: him immediately because I just met with him the friday before. 271 00:14:33,236 --> 00:14:36,876 Speaker 2: I remember when he came in, I realized his defenses 272 00:14:36,916 --> 00:14:39,996 Speaker 2: were way up. But I also realized pretty quickly I'd 273 00:14:40,036 --> 00:14:43,076 Speaker 2: never seen that kid before, and that bothered me. And 274 00:14:43,116 --> 00:14:45,556 Speaker 2: I said, hey, you know, I don't think we've met, 275 00:14:45,636 --> 00:14:48,716 Speaker 2: and so I kind of introduced myself and and I said, 276 00:14:48,716 --> 00:14:50,596 Speaker 2: you know, I understand your you're kind of new to 277 00:14:50,636 --> 00:14:52,796 Speaker 2: our school. And he said, you know, yes, ma'am. I 278 00:14:52,836 --> 00:14:55,676 Speaker 2: came in last year and I said, okay, well that 279 00:14:55,676 --> 00:14:57,916 Speaker 2: that kind of explains that, you know, and we're newly 280 00:14:58,036 --> 00:15:00,436 Speaker 2: into this eighth grade year, so it just hadn't met him, 281 00:15:00,436 --> 00:15:02,396 Speaker 2: and so I just I just told to me, I 282 00:15:02,476 --> 00:15:04,596 Speaker 2: just thought maybe we could kind of check in see 283 00:15:04,636 --> 00:15:08,476 Speaker 2: how things are going. And he sat down right across 284 00:15:08,516 --> 00:15:11,356 Speaker 2: from my desk here I had two brown chairs. I've 285 00:15:11,436 --> 00:15:13,396 Speaker 2: learned that some kids, if they talk to you, they 286 00:15:13,436 --> 00:15:16,996 Speaker 2: want a barrier between you and them for comfort purposes. 287 00:15:17,276 --> 00:15:19,476 Speaker 2: Other kids, I have a chair that sits right beside 288 00:15:19,476 --> 00:15:21,276 Speaker 2: my desk because some of them they want their needs 289 00:15:21,316 --> 00:15:23,596 Speaker 2: to be touching yours. They're fine with being close to you. 290 00:15:24,116 --> 00:15:25,996 Speaker 2: And so he had sat down across from me, and 291 00:15:26,036 --> 00:15:28,396 Speaker 2: we had just kind of started talking, and then all 292 00:15:28,396 --> 00:15:30,476 Speaker 2: of a sudden, it was kind of like the damn 293 00:15:30,516 --> 00:15:33,676 Speaker 2: broke and there were all these things in his life 294 00:15:33,716 --> 00:15:36,076 Speaker 2: that I felt like he'd been holding on to that 295 00:15:36,156 --> 00:15:39,516 Speaker 2: he just let pour out and I kind of just 296 00:15:39,556 --> 00:15:42,396 Speaker 2: skooted back in my chair and let him talk. And 297 00:15:42,476 --> 00:15:46,276 Speaker 2: he did. But one of the things that inside of me, 298 00:15:46,356 --> 00:15:49,516 Speaker 2: in hindsight, was another red flag that was raised, was 299 00:15:49,916 --> 00:15:53,516 Speaker 2: the fact that he was telling me this story that 300 00:15:53,636 --> 00:15:58,116 Speaker 2: I knew aspects of it were most likely not possible, 301 00:15:59,116 --> 00:16:01,396 Speaker 2: but there was just enough of it that some of 302 00:16:01,436 --> 00:16:04,396 Speaker 2: it could have been probable. And I remember writing some 303 00:16:04,516 --> 00:16:07,276 Speaker 2: notes on the sticky note because this was a Friday, 304 00:16:07,316 --> 00:16:09,396 Speaker 2: and I thought, I'm going to look these things up 305 00:16:09,396 --> 00:16:12,356 Speaker 2: over the weekend and see if this is even possible. 306 00:16:13,556 --> 00:16:17,836 Speaker 2: But what really struck me was, I think this kid 307 00:16:17,876 --> 00:16:22,116 Speaker 2: believes this story. You know, he's weaving this together, and 308 00:16:22,156 --> 00:16:23,076 Speaker 2: I think he'd believes. 309 00:16:23,316 --> 00:16:24,396 Speaker 1: I know you don't want to tell me this story, 310 00:16:24,436 --> 00:16:26,676 Speaker 1: but what sort of a story is he telling you? 311 00:16:26,676 --> 00:16:28,596 Speaker 1: Can you give me just a sense. 312 00:16:28,356 --> 00:16:32,516 Speaker 2: Of just a story about some things that he was 313 00:16:32,596 --> 00:16:36,596 Speaker 2: involved in that were very adult like, kind of like 314 00:16:36,716 --> 00:16:40,516 Speaker 2: if I told you a story about me owning a 315 00:16:40,556 --> 00:16:43,356 Speaker 2: fortune five hundred company, right, you know, I'm sitting here, 316 00:16:43,396 --> 00:16:44,996 Speaker 2: I'm an adult. I can tell you this story. I 317 00:16:44,996 --> 00:16:47,836 Speaker 2: can probably create a pretty good one. But the whole 318 00:16:47,836 --> 00:16:50,356 Speaker 2: time you're to me thinking, well, I've never heard of 319 00:16:50,396 --> 00:16:53,396 Speaker 2: Molly Eedgens before, you know. So there were pieces of 320 00:16:53,436 --> 00:16:57,036 Speaker 2: it that just did not seem possible. But what fascinated 321 00:16:57,116 --> 00:17:00,756 Speaker 2: me was I thought, I think this kid believes what 322 00:17:00,876 --> 00:17:04,116 Speaker 2: he's telling me, and I think he believes that I 323 00:17:04,156 --> 00:17:09,476 Speaker 2: believe him, And so obviously I was concerned, so and 324 00:17:09,516 --> 00:17:12,076 Speaker 2: of course I learned a lot about psychology that I 325 00:17:12,116 --> 00:17:15,436 Speaker 2: would not have known otherwise. I've read the works of 326 00:17:15,476 --> 00:17:18,356 Speaker 2: doctor Peter Langman, who is considered to be one of 327 00:17:18,396 --> 00:17:21,956 Speaker 2: the world's leading experts on mass s sheotings that happened 328 00:17:22,076 --> 00:17:27,636 Speaker 2: with teenagers, especially in school environments, and doctor Langman's work 329 00:17:27,796 --> 00:17:30,916 Speaker 2: was crucial to me in the moments that this was happening, 330 00:17:31,036 --> 00:17:34,276 Speaker 2: because I was able to recognize, based on all of 331 00:17:34,316 --> 00:17:38,196 Speaker 2: these other case studies, what I believed was a psychosis 332 00:17:38,436 --> 00:17:45,156 Speaker 2: or psychoses in process, and began to learn a very 333 00:17:45,236 --> 00:17:52,276 Speaker 2: valuable lesson that day that reality is really about perspective. 334 00:17:53,116 --> 00:17:55,996 Speaker 2: It doesn't really matter what's real, It only matters what 335 00:17:56,036 --> 00:17:59,396 Speaker 2: people perceive to be real. And so in these moments 336 00:17:59,436 --> 00:18:02,956 Speaker 2: with this child, it became crucial for me to accept 337 00:18:03,036 --> 00:18:06,756 Speaker 2: his reality. And I do remember praying you know Lord 338 00:18:06,796 --> 00:18:09,916 Speaker 2: helped me to not get lost in this. But I 339 00:18:09,996 --> 00:18:12,156 Speaker 2: had to try to meet him where he was. We 340 00:18:12,236 --> 00:18:13,996 Speaker 2: use those words a lot, and meet the child where 341 00:18:13,996 --> 00:18:17,436 Speaker 2: they are, and that was very important. I don't think 342 00:18:17,516 --> 00:18:22,396 Speaker 2: that that piece would have occurred had I not had 343 00:18:22,836 --> 00:18:27,276 Speaker 2: all this background research. So he talked for forty five 344 00:18:27,316 --> 00:18:29,796 Speaker 2: minutes and I remember thinking, he's missed an entire class period. 345 00:18:29,796 --> 00:18:31,636 Speaker 2: I've got to get him back to class. And so 346 00:18:31,956 --> 00:18:34,116 Speaker 2: I said to him myself, listen, you have you know, 347 00:18:34,156 --> 00:18:36,636 Speaker 2: you've really unburdened a lot today, you've shared a lot. 348 00:18:36,916 --> 00:18:39,356 Speaker 2: Would you like to come back maybe one day next 349 00:18:39,356 --> 00:18:41,716 Speaker 2: week and then we can meet again and talk and 350 00:18:42,156 --> 00:18:45,276 Speaker 2: and he he said yes, he would like to do that, 351 00:18:45,396 --> 00:18:46,956 Speaker 2: and so I wrote his name on my list. 352 00:18:47,556 --> 00:18:49,036 Speaker 1: That's the crucial moment. 353 00:18:48,956 --> 00:18:50,956 Speaker 2: The crucial moment, oh shuts. 354 00:18:50,956 --> 00:18:53,556 Speaker 1: In this whole. I mean, I know where there's many 355 00:18:53,636 --> 00:18:56,996 Speaker 1: much more to the story, but that moment, you've established 356 00:18:56,996 --> 00:19:00,556 Speaker 1: a connection with him, and you've you're the safe place 357 00:19:00,596 --> 00:19:04,156 Speaker 1: he can go, and that's why he comes back, I think. 358 00:19:04,236 --> 00:19:07,436 Speaker 2: So. I think there were several things. The biggest one 359 00:19:07,476 --> 00:19:09,916 Speaker 2: I was willing to listen. I didn't in a I 360 00:19:09,916 --> 00:19:13,396 Speaker 2: didn't challenge what he said. I didn't point out anything 361 00:19:13,436 --> 00:19:16,916 Speaker 2: that I thought was a falsehood. I just listened and 362 00:19:17,116 --> 00:19:19,356 Speaker 2: gave him a place to share that and then offered 363 00:19:19,396 --> 00:19:22,156 Speaker 2: to listen more. And so I think you're right. You 364 00:19:22,196 --> 00:19:24,916 Speaker 2: know it was a it was a safe place, and 365 00:19:25,356 --> 00:19:27,556 Speaker 2: that's most likely why he did come back. 366 00:19:27,876 --> 00:19:32,196 Speaker 1: So you're looking at this boy he's boy, and he's 367 00:19:32,236 --> 00:19:35,676 Speaker 1: telling you a story that is in part maybe part real, 368 00:19:35,756 --> 00:19:39,116 Speaker 1: with part fantasy. And what sort of other signs is 369 00:19:39,156 --> 00:19:42,876 Speaker 1: he giving you? Is he is he agitated? Is he 370 00:19:43,956 --> 00:19:45,636 Speaker 1: hostile to you? Is he No? 371 00:19:46,636 --> 00:19:48,796 Speaker 2: Quite the opposite. Actually, when I look back on that, 372 00:19:48,876 --> 00:19:52,516 Speaker 2: I think about how he was very articulate, he was 373 00:19:52,676 --> 00:19:57,196 Speaker 2: very bright. We made good eye contact, there was good conversation, 374 00:19:57,996 --> 00:20:01,876 Speaker 2: you know. He I did realize that I had perceived 375 00:20:01,916 --> 00:20:08,476 Speaker 2: him just in hindsight, as a quieter student. His grades 376 00:20:08,556 --> 00:20:12,316 Speaker 2: were solid, he did not have a massive disciplinary record. 377 00:20:12,916 --> 00:20:14,916 Speaker 2: When we talk about a lot of these kids who 378 00:20:14,956 --> 00:20:18,196 Speaker 2: commit these atrocities, one of the things that people fail 379 00:20:18,276 --> 00:20:20,756 Speaker 2: to recognize is that a lot of times they are 380 00:20:20,796 --> 00:20:24,316 Speaker 2: the outliers. They are not on the radar of anyone. 381 00:20:24,716 --> 00:20:27,956 Speaker 2: Sometimes they are, but a lot of the times they're not. 382 00:20:28,836 --> 00:20:31,956 Speaker 2: And that is because if someone is suffering from a psychosis, 383 00:20:32,356 --> 00:20:35,796 Speaker 2: they can be psychotic in one way and function perfectly 384 00:20:35,876 --> 00:20:38,956 Speaker 2: normally in many other ways. They can hold jobs, they 385 00:20:38,956 --> 00:20:40,676 Speaker 2: can come to school, they can do work, they can 386 00:20:40,676 --> 00:20:44,436 Speaker 2: participate in class discussion, they can have friends. A lot 387 00:20:44,436 --> 00:20:47,036 Speaker 2: of them become very good, especially the older, they get 388 00:20:47,156 --> 00:20:49,916 Speaker 2: at covering up what they perceive to be taboo behavior, 389 00:20:50,476 --> 00:20:53,236 Speaker 2: and I think that some of the things that he 390 00:20:53,276 --> 00:20:56,916 Speaker 2: was experiencing, he was testing the waters with me to 391 00:20:56,956 --> 00:20:59,236 Speaker 2: see how I would react that Friday, to see if 392 00:20:59,276 --> 00:21:02,116 Speaker 2: I would react strongly, or if I would say, you know, well, 393 00:21:02,156 --> 00:21:05,716 Speaker 2: that's not possible, or if I would question what he 394 00:21:05,796 --> 00:21:10,076 Speaker 2: was saying. And I didn't, And that, to me was 395 00:21:10,116 --> 00:21:13,596 Speaker 2: another crucial piece, because you know, you fast forward to 396 00:21:13,636 --> 00:21:16,076 Speaker 2: the next week, we come back on Monday, I had 397 00:21:16,076 --> 00:21:18,676 Speaker 2: this running list of kids to see. We try to 398 00:21:18,716 --> 00:21:20,756 Speaker 2: see them in the order that they request to see them, 399 00:21:20,836 --> 00:21:23,596 Speaker 2: kind of like they've taken a ticket, unless obviously it's 400 00:21:23,596 --> 00:21:25,836 Speaker 2: a crisis situation that then involves us to bump them, 401 00:21:25,836 --> 00:21:29,516 Speaker 2: you know, to the front of the line. But I 402 00:21:29,556 --> 00:21:32,076 Speaker 2: never got to him on Monday, and then on Tuesday, 403 00:21:32,196 --> 00:21:34,836 Speaker 2: I was in classroom guidance with eighth graders all day long, 404 00:21:35,356 --> 00:21:38,916 Speaker 2: and so Wednesday morning I just hadn't gotten to him yet. 405 00:21:39,196 --> 00:21:41,276 Speaker 2: But that's okay, because he came back. 406 00:21:43,636 --> 00:22:03,236 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute, So tell me about that. 407 00:22:03,476 --> 00:22:08,956 Speaker 1: It's Wednesday morning, and is he Is he in your 408 00:22:09,156 --> 00:22:10,996 Speaker 1: office when you arrive or are you in your office 409 00:22:10,996 --> 00:22:12,036 Speaker 1: and he comes through the door. 410 00:22:12,476 --> 00:22:14,316 Speaker 2: No, I had just put my things down to go 411 00:22:14,436 --> 00:22:16,556 Speaker 2: back out for the prayer at the poll to kind 412 00:22:16,556 --> 00:22:19,636 Speaker 2: of supervise, and he came in and he said, hey, 413 00:22:19,676 --> 00:22:22,356 Speaker 2: miss Hudgens, would it be okay if I came back 414 00:22:22,396 --> 00:22:25,076 Speaker 2: to talk to you during related arts, which is the 415 00:22:25,116 --> 00:22:28,236 Speaker 2: time where kids have pe or art or health. I 416 00:22:28,276 --> 00:22:30,156 Speaker 2: looked at my calendar. I knew eighth grade I had 417 00:22:30,196 --> 00:22:32,676 Speaker 2: that at ten thirty. I didn't have anything scheduled for 418 00:22:32,716 --> 00:22:34,796 Speaker 2: that time. So I said, hey, that no problem. You 419 00:22:34,916 --> 00:22:36,436 Speaker 2: just come back then. If you need a note from 420 00:22:36,476 --> 00:22:38,476 Speaker 2: your teacher, you let me know. And he said okay, 421 00:22:38,636 --> 00:22:41,076 Speaker 2: and he left, and I just thought, well, I hadn't 422 00:22:41,076 --> 00:22:42,996 Speaker 2: gotten him yet, but when they come back again, you 423 00:22:43,076 --> 00:22:44,876 Speaker 2: usually bump them up higher on the list, and so 424 00:22:44,876 --> 00:22:47,156 Speaker 2: I thought, I'll see him first thing this morning at 425 00:22:47,156 --> 00:22:50,076 Speaker 2: ten thirty. And so then I went about my morning duty. 426 00:22:50,196 --> 00:22:52,956 Speaker 2: I mean, it's eerie in some ways to watch myself 427 00:22:52,956 --> 00:22:55,956 Speaker 2: on surveillance video. I'm walking through the hallways of the school. 428 00:22:55,956 --> 00:22:57,756 Speaker 2: I stopped and straighten the lanyard of one of our 429 00:22:57,756 --> 00:23:02,356 Speaker 2: eighth grade teachers I'd worked with for twenty years, never 430 00:23:02,556 --> 00:23:05,876 Speaker 2: thinking at all that anything's wrong. I mean, I'm coming 431 00:23:05,916 --> 00:23:08,876 Speaker 2: back to the counseling department, and I'm almost skipping because 432 00:23:08,876 --> 00:23:12,196 Speaker 2: I know that Glenn, my co counselor, has prepared breakfast 433 00:23:12,236 --> 00:23:14,716 Speaker 2: and we're gonna eat and talk about our day. And 434 00:23:14,916 --> 00:23:17,316 Speaker 2: I was in Glenn's office, which is adjacent to mine, 435 00:23:18,116 --> 00:23:20,236 Speaker 2: with my back to the door, when the young man 436 00:23:20,276 --> 00:23:23,316 Speaker 2: came in and I noticed he was there because Glenn 437 00:23:23,316 --> 00:23:25,356 Speaker 2: looked up from his plate and he said, well, hey, son, 438 00:23:25,436 --> 00:23:27,876 Speaker 2: you know what can we do for you? And I 439 00:23:27,916 --> 00:23:30,836 Speaker 2: heard the kid say I was supposed to meet with 440 00:23:30,876 --> 00:23:32,796 Speaker 2: Miss Hudgens at ten thirty, but I don't think I 441 00:23:32,796 --> 00:23:36,836 Speaker 2: can wait until then. And I remember looking at Glenn 442 00:23:36,836 --> 00:23:38,916 Speaker 2: and almost like rolling my eyes, and I was thinking, oh, 443 00:23:38,996 --> 00:23:41,396 Speaker 2: my goodness, my breakfast is going to be cold, and 444 00:23:41,396 --> 00:23:44,196 Speaker 2: then thinking that that was kind of selfish, and just 445 00:23:44,196 --> 00:23:46,796 Speaker 2: turning and smiling and saying, well, hey, honey, that's okay. 446 00:23:46,876 --> 00:23:48,516 Speaker 2: You just head on over to my office and I'll 447 00:23:48,516 --> 00:23:50,836 Speaker 2: be over there in a second. And so I remember 448 00:23:50,876 --> 00:23:53,196 Speaker 2: like wolfing down, you know, the rest of breakfast, and 449 00:23:53,276 --> 00:23:55,396 Speaker 2: dropping the dishes in the sink and coming in and 450 00:23:55,436 --> 00:23:58,236 Speaker 2: closing the door and just walking around and sitting down 451 00:23:58,316 --> 00:24:00,636 Speaker 2: right here and just saying, well, hey, babe, what's going on, 452 00:24:00,876 --> 00:24:03,956 Speaker 2: which is how I usually start all of their conversations. 453 00:24:04,796 --> 00:24:10,476 Speaker 2: And then pretty quickly I realized something was different. His mannerisms, 454 00:24:10,516 --> 00:24:14,516 Speaker 2: his facial expressions seemed different than the week before. And 455 00:24:14,596 --> 00:24:17,916 Speaker 2: I think the reason that I really recognized this was 456 00:24:17,996 --> 00:24:21,636 Speaker 2: my body reacted. First, my heart rates started to pounds. 457 00:24:21,796 --> 00:24:24,316 Speaker 2: I remember thinking that I could hear my pulse in 458 00:24:24,356 --> 00:24:26,236 Speaker 2: my ears, and I thought, I don't think my heart 459 00:24:26,396 --> 00:24:29,636 Speaker 2: sounds like this when I'm running, you know. And then 460 00:24:29,676 --> 00:24:32,156 Speaker 2: I felt like somebody took a cup of something warm 461 00:24:32,196 --> 00:24:33,556 Speaker 2: and like poured it on top of my head, like 462 00:24:33,596 --> 00:24:35,556 Speaker 2: it was running down my body. And I remember even 463 00:24:35,836 --> 00:24:37,916 Speaker 2: saying to myself, like kind of steadying myself at the 464 00:24:37,956 --> 00:24:41,996 Speaker 2: desk and saying to myself, Molly, don't faint. He was 465 00:24:43,356 --> 00:24:46,476 Speaker 2: looking around the room, eyes kind of darting in different places. 466 00:24:47,356 --> 00:24:50,436 Speaker 2: He seemed very nervous, which was nothing like the way 467 00:24:50,476 --> 00:24:54,196 Speaker 2: he had appeared the week before. And then he started 468 00:24:54,196 --> 00:24:58,596 Speaker 2: to ask me a series of questions that obviously spiked 469 00:24:58,716 --> 00:25:04,236 Speaker 2: my level of concern. He started asking if, then questions, 470 00:25:04,316 --> 00:25:06,476 Speaker 2: if I do this, what are you going to do? 471 00:25:07,836 --> 00:25:13,116 Speaker 2: They were terrifying, and I remember thinking, play dumb, and 472 00:25:13,156 --> 00:25:16,676 Speaker 2: so I remember saying, well, honey, I don't know what 473 00:25:16,716 --> 00:25:20,036 Speaker 2: I would do, but why would you do that? And 474 00:25:20,276 --> 00:25:23,916 Speaker 2: frantically I start thinking about what my options are because 475 00:25:23,956 --> 00:25:26,196 Speaker 2: in that moment, I just had this thought, and I 476 00:25:26,196 --> 00:25:29,036 Speaker 2: think the Lord gave it to me. It was he's 477 00:25:29,076 --> 00:25:32,556 Speaker 2: got a gun. And then I start I remember praying. 478 00:25:32,636 --> 00:25:34,796 Speaker 2: I remember saying, Lord, if there's anything separating you from me, 479 00:25:34,876 --> 00:25:36,876 Speaker 2: take it away, because if this is it, if I'm 480 00:25:36,876 --> 00:25:39,836 Speaker 2: going to die today in my office, you know, in 481 00:25:39,916 --> 00:25:42,916 Speaker 2: this tress skirt I don't like the day before I 482 00:25:42,916 --> 00:25:45,796 Speaker 2: turned forty, I want to know where I'm going. I 483 00:25:45,796 --> 00:25:47,956 Speaker 2: want to know I'm okay. I remember saying, take care 484 00:25:47,956 --> 00:25:49,796 Speaker 2: of my boys and help me be brave. I mean, 485 00:25:49,796 --> 00:25:53,276 Speaker 2: it was a thirty second prayer probably, And then I 486 00:25:53,316 --> 00:25:56,196 Speaker 2: start trying to focus on what he is saying to me, 487 00:25:56,636 --> 00:25:59,636 Speaker 2: and all the while I'm thinking about the teachers who 488 00:25:59,636 --> 00:26:02,516 Speaker 2: were right across the hall. I remember thinking about about 489 00:26:02,516 --> 00:26:04,356 Speaker 2: the number of students they had. I knew their backs 490 00:26:04,356 --> 00:26:06,436 Speaker 2: would be to the door, and for some reason in 491 00:26:06,476 --> 00:26:09,716 Speaker 2: my mind, I thought that's where he'll go first. There'll 492 00:26:09,756 --> 00:26:12,596 Speaker 2: be his first victims. And it dawns on me the 493 00:26:12,676 --> 00:26:17,356 Speaker 2: only thing standing between him and them is me, and 494 00:26:19,316 --> 00:26:21,676 Speaker 2: I remember thinking, you got to do everything you can, 495 00:26:22,196 --> 00:26:24,836 Speaker 2: like you got to do everything you can. So I 496 00:26:24,876 --> 00:26:28,276 Speaker 2: start really listening to what he's saying. He would go 497 00:26:28,396 --> 00:26:30,956 Speaker 2: back to rehash some of the things that he had 498 00:26:30,996 --> 00:26:35,236 Speaker 2: been so concerned about the week before. All the while 499 00:26:36,076 --> 00:26:39,476 Speaker 2: I am frantically trying to think about what I will 500 00:26:39,476 --> 00:26:42,516 Speaker 2: do if I can get this gun. Can I just 501 00:26:42,596 --> 00:26:45,276 Speaker 2: pull the trigger and unload it into the ceiling? I remember, 502 00:26:45,316 --> 00:26:47,156 Speaker 2: you know, but I remember looking up here and thinking, 503 00:26:47,196 --> 00:26:49,356 Speaker 2: we have a drop ceiling. It's a steel roof. This 504 00:26:49,436 --> 00:26:51,516 Speaker 2: building was built in nineteen seventy eight, and I had 505 00:26:51,556 --> 00:26:53,956 Speaker 2: read a lot. I knew what the trajectory of bullets 506 00:26:53,996 --> 00:26:56,836 Speaker 2: would do inside of a cinder block room, and I 507 00:26:56,876 --> 00:26:59,076 Speaker 2: remember thinking that that's not going to work. And I 508 00:26:59,116 --> 00:27:01,316 Speaker 2: had this thought, you're going to talk your way out 509 00:27:01,316 --> 00:27:03,556 Speaker 2: of this. And I remember thinking, you know, for a 510 00:27:03,636 --> 00:27:05,876 Speaker 2: kid who spent a whole lot of time in trouble 511 00:27:05,916 --> 00:27:08,636 Speaker 2: in elementary school because I just couldn't seem to stop talking, 512 00:27:09,276 --> 00:27:11,156 Speaker 2: yet had gotten a job where I talked all day, 513 00:27:11,436 --> 00:27:13,596 Speaker 2: it worked out great for me, right, And so I 514 00:27:13,676 --> 00:27:15,956 Speaker 2: just remember thinking, you don't have to talk yourway eye this. 515 00:27:16,076 --> 00:27:19,996 Speaker 2: At one point in the conversation, he unzips his jacket 516 00:27:20,036 --> 00:27:22,196 Speaker 2: and he sticked his he stuck his hand inside of it, 517 00:27:22,236 --> 00:27:24,356 Speaker 2: and I knew, I knew what it was. And he 518 00:27:24,396 --> 00:27:28,356 Speaker 2: started tapping on something. And I say this all the 519 00:27:28,396 --> 00:27:31,156 Speaker 2: time when I tell our story. Something rose up in 520 00:27:31,236 --> 00:27:36,036 Speaker 2: me and I remember thinking, not my school, not my school. 521 00:27:36,316 --> 00:27:38,356 Speaker 2: This will not happen here. This will not I will 522 00:27:38,436 --> 00:27:40,076 Speaker 2: kill you or you will kill me. But you're not 523 00:27:40,156 --> 00:27:42,596 Speaker 2: leaving that room. And I'll tell you I had never 524 00:27:42,636 --> 00:27:46,036 Speaker 2: thought about harming anybody. I mean, I'm a counselor what 525 00:27:46,076 --> 00:27:48,316 Speaker 2: we want to help people. That's not ingrained in our 526 00:27:48,436 --> 00:27:51,676 Speaker 2: in our DNA. But in that moment, if it was 527 00:27:51,756 --> 00:27:55,916 Speaker 2: going to be him or those kids, or him or 528 00:27:55,996 --> 00:28:00,476 Speaker 2: one of those staff members, or him or me, it 529 00:28:00,516 --> 00:28:03,196 Speaker 2: was going to be him. There was no way he 530 00:28:03,276 --> 00:28:04,756 Speaker 2: was going to leave this room. I didn't know what 531 00:28:04,756 --> 00:28:07,356 Speaker 2: I would have to do. I remember thinking at one point, 532 00:28:07,436 --> 00:28:09,676 Speaker 2: thank you Lord. You know you've had me training all 533 00:28:09,716 --> 00:28:11,716 Speaker 2: these months for a marathon that I'm supposed to run 534 00:28:11,716 --> 00:28:13,596 Speaker 2: in three weeks. I'm of the best physical shape of 535 00:28:13,596 --> 00:28:16,596 Speaker 2: my life. If this becomes physical, I think I have 536 00:28:16,676 --> 00:28:20,676 Speaker 2: a chance that when you started to tap on that box, 537 00:28:20,836 --> 00:28:23,036 Speaker 2: I remember thinking I had to take the bait, and 538 00:28:23,076 --> 00:28:27,156 Speaker 2: for some reason that made me furious, and so I 539 00:28:27,196 --> 00:28:31,476 Speaker 2: looked at him and I just said, slightly sarcastically, I said, 540 00:28:32,876 --> 00:28:35,476 Speaker 2: what are you tapping on? And I remember he kind 541 00:28:35,476 --> 00:28:37,196 Speaker 2: of cocked his head to one side and he was 542 00:28:37,316 --> 00:28:40,396 Speaker 2: like a pencil box. And I thought, no, it's not 543 00:28:40,756 --> 00:28:42,676 Speaker 2: I've never sent in an eighth grade with a pencil box. 544 00:28:42,756 --> 00:28:45,836 Speaker 2: But something again in me said, don't push Molly, and 545 00:28:45,916 --> 00:28:50,316 Speaker 2: so we just kept talking and then at one point 546 00:28:50,356 --> 00:28:54,116 Speaker 2: he looks at me and he says, Miss Hudgens, I've 547 00:28:54,156 --> 00:28:56,316 Speaker 2: got something to tell you that I bet nobody's ever 548 00:28:56,356 --> 00:28:59,356 Speaker 2: told you before. And I knew what he was going 549 00:28:59,436 --> 00:29:02,156 Speaker 2: to say, but I said, well, honey, I don't know. 550 00:29:02,156 --> 00:29:03,676 Speaker 2: I've been doing this job for a long time. My 551 00:29:03,676 --> 00:29:05,836 Speaker 2: doubt there's anything you can tell me I haven't heard before. 552 00:29:05,876 --> 00:29:08,396 Speaker 2: And he said, I bet nobody's ever told you they 553 00:29:08,396 --> 00:29:11,636 Speaker 2: had a loaded gun. And again, I said the first 554 00:29:11,636 --> 00:29:13,036 Speaker 2: thing that came into my head, and I think the 555 00:29:13,036 --> 00:29:16,796 Speaker 2: Lord gave me this. I said, well, no, honey, they haven't, 556 00:29:16,836 --> 00:29:18,916 Speaker 2: but you probably wouldn't be the first person to have 557 00:29:18,996 --> 00:29:21,556 Speaker 2: one here. And he unzipped his jacket the rest of 558 00:29:21,596 --> 00:29:23,676 Speaker 2: the way and he pulled out the gun. He laid 559 00:29:23,676 --> 00:29:25,396 Speaker 2: it right here on the desk in front of me, 560 00:29:26,276 --> 00:29:28,596 Speaker 2: with the base of the gun facing away from me. 561 00:29:28,916 --> 00:29:32,076 Speaker 2: I remember reading the word millennium upside down and backwards 562 00:29:32,116 --> 00:29:33,956 Speaker 2: and frantically trying to figure out I thought it was 563 00:29:33,956 --> 00:29:35,876 Speaker 2: a nine millimeter. Later we would learn that it was 564 00:29:35,956 --> 00:29:38,556 Speaker 2: a forty five. That only matters in terms of the 565 00:29:38,636 --> 00:29:40,836 Speaker 2: number of bullets the gun can hold, and I knew that. 566 00:29:41,436 --> 00:29:43,436 Speaker 2: Then he unzipped his jacket and he reached into the 567 00:29:43,436 --> 00:29:46,556 Speaker 2: outside pocket and he pulled out an additional magazine of ammunition, 568 00:29:46,596 --> 00:29:49,116 Speaker 2: and he stood it up right beside the gun on 569 00:29:49,156 --> 00:29:51,316 Speaker 2: my desk, and I start frantically trying to count the 570 00:29:51,316 --> 00:29:54,276 Speaker 2: bullets that you can vaguely see through the side of 571 00:29:54,356 --> 00:29:57,676 Speaker 2: the magazine. And then he pulls out a holster that 572 00:29:57,716 --> 00:30:00,156 Speaker 2: we would later learn he had used to attach the 573 00:30:00,196 --> 00:30:04,156 Speaker 2: additional magazine to his ankle. And so he lays all 574 00:30:04,196 --> 00:30:06,076 Speaker 2: these things on the desk in front of me, and 575 00:30:06,116 --> 00:30:08,916 Speaker 2: it strikes me, you know, I'm like a three foot target. 576 00:30:09,396 --> 00:30:11,876 Speaker 2: And so I remember standing up and leaning out, and 577 00:30:11,916 --> 00:30:14,556 Speaker 2: I put my hands on like on the gun, and 578 00:30:14,556 --> 00:30:16,996 Speaker 2: I said, honey, why don't we talk about what's going on, 579 00:30:17,116 --> 00:30:18,676 Speaker 2: and or why don't you want me take these and 580 00:30:18,676 --> 00:30:20,676 Speaker 2: then we can talk about what's going on? And he 581 00:30:20,756 --> 00:30:23,476 Speaker 2: yanked it all away. He shoved the magazine and the 582 00:30:23,476 --> 00:30:26,236 Speaker 2: holster back into his outer pocket where they had been 583 00:30:26,316 --> 00:30:28,116 Speaker 2: to begin with, and he held a gun in his 584 00:30:28,196 --> 00:30:31,316 Speaker 2: left hand, pointed down with the floor. And so I 585 00:30:31,356 --> 00:30:34,636 Speaker 2: am already like sort of halfway standing here because I've 586 00:30:34,676 --> 00:30:36,836 Speaker 2: leaned over to touch the gun. So I just stood 587 00:30:36,876 --> 00:30:38,316 Speaker 2: up the rest of the way and I put my 588 00:30:38,356 --> 00:30:41,996 Speaker 2: hands up, and all I start being flooded in my 589 00:30:42,076 --> 00:30:44,716 Speaker 2: mind with all these things I've learned. Is this a 590 00:30:44,756 --> 00:30:47,756 Speaker 2: hostage or a non hostage situation? You know, if it's 591 00:30:47,756 --> 00:30:51,356 Speaker 2: a hostage situation, the goal is to lower their expectations 592 00:30:51,436 --> 00:30:55,196 Speaker 2: until eventually the hostage taker realizes their best they're not 593 00:30:55,236 --> 00:30:56,876 Speaker 2: probably going to get what they want, and their best 594 00:30:56,916 --> 00:31:00,116 Speaker 2: option is to leave that situation. If it's a non 595 00:31:00,156 --> 00:31:03,276 Speaker 2: hostage situation, the person already has what they want and 596 00:31:03,316 --> 00:31:05,756 Speaker 2: you're not trying to lower expectations. You're trying to lower 597 00:31:05,756 --> 00:31:08,956 Speaker 2: their emotions. So I remember thinking to myself, You've got 598 00:31:08,996 --> 00:31:12,316 Speaker 2: a lower his emotion, Stay calm, let him feel as 599 00:31:12,316 --> 00:31:15,196 Speaker 2: if he has power. So I walk around the chair 600 00:31:15,236 --> 00:31:17,076 Speaker 2: that sits at the end of my desk, and I 601 00:31:17,156 --> 00:31:20,236 Speaker 2: got down on my knees and I think I heard that, 602 00:31:20,396 --> 00:31:23,036 Speaker 2: get on your knees, and I realize now, you know, 603 00:31:23,636 --> 00:31:26,076 Speaker 2: I was trying to put myself in a subservient position 604 00:31:26,196 --> 00:31:29,436 Speaker 2: because now I am physically lower than him, even in height. 605 00:31:30,196 --> 00:31:33,676 Speaker 2: And I remember hearing he's right handed. I knew he 606 00:31:33,676 --> 00:31:35,356 Speaker 2: had taken the gun out with his right hand, but 607 00:31:35,396 --> 00:31:37,716 Speaker 2: he now had it in his left. So I put 608 00:31:37,756 --> 00:31:40,076 Speaker 2: my left hand on his right shoulder, just like a 609 00:31:40,516 --> 00:31:43,036 Speaker 2: like to comfort him. And then I just reached over 610 00:31:43,156 --> 00:31:45,396 Speaker 2: with my right hand and I interlaced the fingers of 611 00:31:45,436 --> 00:31:49,516 Speaker 2: my right hand with his right hand, and I remember thinking, well, 612 00:31:50,236 --> 00:31:52,196 Speaker 2: if you're gonna shoot me, you're gonna have to do 613 00:31:52,236 --> 00:31:55,196 Speaker 2: it with your non a dominant hand. And I just 614 00:31:55,236 --> 00:32:00,996 Speaker 2: started talking. I couldn't believe this was happening. You know 615 00:32:01,156 --> 00:32:04,396 Speaker 2: you asked earlier about that. Did you ever think something 616 00:32:04,436 --> 00:32:06,436 Speaker 2: like this will happen? No? But at the same time, 617 00:32:06,916 --> 00:32:10,236 Speaker 2: I remember thinking a couple times, you're prepared for this 618 00:32:10,596 --> 00:32:13,956 Speaker 2: than anybody else in this building. I work with some 619 00:32:14,036 --> 00:32:17,876 Speaker 2: amazing educators who are very intellectual people, but I knew 620 00:32:17,916 --> 00:32:20,516 Speaker 2: that none of them had researched this study this, so 621 00:32:21,116 --> 00:32:23,476 Speaker 2: in my mind, I thought this was the perfect place 622 00:32:23,556 --> 00:32:25,836 Speaker 2: if he was going to come here. I tried to 623 00:32:25,876 --> 00:32:29,196 Speaker 2: start fully engaging him in conversation, and not too far 624 00:32:29,356 --> 00:32:33,596 Speaker 2: into that conversation, the worst case scenario happens when I 625 00:32:33,676 --> 00:32:35,836 Speaker 2: start to hear noises in the hallway and I realized 626 00:32:35,836 --> 00:32:38,596 Speaker 2: the kids are changing classes. I can hear the toilets 627 00:32:38,596 --> 00:32:41,156 Speaker 2: start to flush in the girl's restaurant right here behind me. 628 00:32:41,396 --> 00:32:43,276 Speaker 2: You can hear out in the hallway the locker doors 629 00:32:43,316 --> 00:32:45,516 Speaker 2: are slamming. The kids are talking there, yelling to each other. 630 00:32:45,836 --> 00:32:49,236 Speaker 2: And then I thought, get ready, because here come the teachers. 631 00:32:49,756 --> 00:32:52,156 Speaker 2: I could see them out of my peripheral vision, passing 632 00:32:52,196 --> 00:32:55,156 Speaker 2: the glass pane in my door. At one point Glenn 633 00:32:55,156 --> 00:32:58,476 Speaker 2: would come and stand there and look in, and I 634 00:32:58,476 --> 00:33:00,876 Speaker 2: wouldn't make eye contact with him because I was afraid 635 00:33:00,876 --> 00:33:03,556 Speaker 2: if I did, he would realize something was not right 636 00:33:03,916 --> 00:33:06,476 Speaker 2: and he would come in. He stood there for probably 637 00:33:06,516 --> 00:33:09,596 Speaker 2: I don't know, twenty seconds maybe, and then he left, 638 00:33:09,996 --> 00:33:12,796 Speaker 2: and later I asked him, I said, listen, I'm so 639 00:33:12,836 --> 00:33:15,556 Speaker 2: glad you didn't come in. You weren't supposed to, But 640 00:33:16,116 --> 00:33:19,076 Speaker 2: what kept you from that? And he said, well, Molly, 641 00:33:19,156 --> 00:33:20,876 Speaker 2: I looked in there, and you were down on your knees, 642 00:33:20,916 --> 00:33:23,156 Speaker 2: and I thought, well, lord, she's praying with him. She's 643 00:33:23,196 --> 00:33:27,116 Speaker 2: gonna be in trouble. But whatever. He came back to 644 00:33:27,196 --> 00:33:27,796 Speaker 2: his office. 645 00:33:28,596 --> 00:33:30,876 Speaker 1: You don't getting any trouble in Tennessee, Yeah, Praig with me? 646 00:33:31,356 --> 00:33:34,036 Speaker 2: I hope not. But I knew I had seven minutes. 647 00:33:34,076 --> 00:33:35,916 Speaker 2: Seven minutes they were going to be in the hallways, 648 00:33:35,956 --> 00:33:38,636 Speaker 2: and I tried to engage him as much in conversation 649 00:33:38,676 --> 00:33:41,476 Speaker 2: as I could. I did not want him to realize 650 00:33:41,476 --> 00:33:45,276 Speaker 2: how close in proximity he now was to victims or 651 00:33:45,316 --> 00:33:48,796 Speaker 2: potential victims. And so as the sound started to diminish 652 00:33:48,836 --> 00:33:51,276 Speaker 2: in the hallway, I remember feeling this sense of like, 653 00:33:51,316 --> 00:33:53,436 Speaker 2: their back in there, back in you know, they're back 654 00:33:53,436 --> 00:33:59,516 Speaker 2: in classes. And we talked some more. He realized that 655 00:33:59,596 --> 00:34:02,276 Speaker 2: he what he had done was already a felony. You know, 656 00:34:02,316 --> 00:34:05,476 Speaker 2: bringing a loaded firearm or any firearm on a school 657 00:34:05,516 --> 00:34:10,316 Speaker 2: campus is obviously against the law. He knew that he 658 00:34:10,316 --> 00:34:14,836 Speaker 2: he had all these concerns about things, but it dawned 659 00:34:14,876 --> 00:34:18,396 Speaker 2: on me that this was an even more critical situation 660 00:34:18,596 --> 00:34:22,316 Speaker 2: than I first realized. When he explained to me that 661 00:34:22,396 --> 00:34:25,356 Speaker 2: if he did not kill people here at school, that 662 00:34:25,556 --> 00:34:30,916 Speaker 2: someone was going to kill his family. And in that moment, I, 663 00:34:30,956 --> 00:34:34,116 Speaker 2: you know, I remember like almost inhaling sharply and thinking, 664 00:34:35,316 --> 00:34:38,156 Speaker 2: this is a psychosis. What you know, what you were, 665 00:34:38,316 --> 00:34:41,116 Speaker 2: what you were seeing on Friday that was concerning to you, 666 00:34:41,236 --> 00:34:46,436 Speaker 2: probably delusions, what you're seeing right now, hallucinations, like all 667 00:34:46,476 --> 00:34:49,596 Speaker 2: of that began to piece itself together. And that's when 668 00:34:49,636 --> 00:34:51,996 Speaker 2: I remember saying the prayer, Lord, help me, don't get 669 00:34:52,076 --> 00:34:54,076 Speaker 2: help me, do not get lost in this. And so 670 00:34:54,236 --> 00:34:57,116 Speaker 2: I started thinking, Okay, Molly, what would you actually do 671 00:34:57,156 --> 00:34:59,716 Speaker 2: if you really thought that there was, truly there was 672 00:34:59,716 --> 00:35:02,196 Speaker 2: a kid on campus whose family was in danger? What 673 00:35:02,196 --> 00:35:03,876 Speaker 2: would you do? And I thought you'd reach out to 674 00:35:03,956 --> 00:35:07,316 Speaker 2: law enforcement. And so I remember telling him, you know, 675 00:35:07,956 --> 00:35:10,316 Speaker 2: we've got to get someone to your home to protect 676 00:35:10,316 --> 00:35:14,836 Speaker 2: your family. And I remember this look on his face 677 00:35:15,036 --> 00:35:23,676 Speaker 2: that was like, she believes me. She believes me. So 678 00:35:24,076 --> 00:35:26,956 Speaker 2: I decided to work from that approach. I would love 679 00:35:26,996 --> 00:35:31,676 Speaker 2: to say that I had this beautiful strategy. In hindsight, 680 00:35:31,716 --> 00:35:33,636 Speaker 2: I think it was a beautiful strategy, but it was 681 00:35:33,676 --> 00:35:36,556 Speaker 2: not of my creation. I know that for sure. It 682 00:35:36,636 --> 00:35:39,196 Speaker 2: was like I played the best mental chess match of 683 00:35:39,196 --> 00:35:42,196 Speaker 2: my life and I don't even know how to play chess, 684 00:35:42,756 --> 00:35:45,956 Speaker 2: but I was working through everything that he would present. 685 00:35:46,196 --> 00:35:49,116 Speaker 2: We talked for a long time. It starts to dawn 686 00:35:49,156 --> 00:35:52,156 Speaker 2: on me that I cannot believe somebody has not come 687 00:35:52,196 --> 00:35:57,076 Speaker 2: into this office. Our teachers were fairly accustomed to understanding 688 00:35:57,116 --> 00:35:59,036 Speaker 2: that if the door to this office is closed, they 689 00:35:59,036 --> 00:36:01,116 Speaker 2: know not to come in. I'm either a meeting with 690 00:36:01,116 --> 00:36:03,476 Speaker 2: the student, I'm on the phone, or there's something going 691 00:36:03,516 --> 00:36:07,276 Speaker 2: on that I need a private setting. But I still 692 00:36:07,356 --> 00:36:09,356 Speaker 2: was worried. Kids were so us to turn in your 693 00:36:09,356 --> 00:36:11,596 Speaker 2: bed of fees that day. It was the last day, 694 00:36:12,076 --> 00:36:14,596 Speaker 2: and I kept thinking, somebody's going to come in. And 695 00:36:14,676 --> 00:36:16,756 Speaker 2: so I looked at him and I said, honey, listen, 696 00:36:17,556 --> 00:36:20,076 Speaker 2: I don't know what it is, but I know that 697 00:36:20,116 --> 00:36:23,276 Speaker 2: God's got a plan for your life. And He's stiffened 698 00:36:23,316 --> 00:36:25,196 Speaker 2: in his seat, and he looked down at me, and 699 00:36:25,236 --> 00:36:29,356 Speaker 2: I remember he said, Miss Hudgens, do you believe in God? 700 00:36:30,596 --> 00:36:33,036 Speaker 2: And I thought, oh, Molly, why did you say that. 701 00:36:33,196 --> 00:36:35,516 Speaker 2: It's like my heart just dropped into my stomach. And 702 00:36:35,516 --> 00:36:38,036 Speaker 2: then I just thought, well, if this is it, you know, 703 00:36:38,116 --> 00:36:40,316 Speaker 2: I thought about Peter, and I thought that this is it. 704 00:36:40,396 --> 00:36:44,236 Speaker 2: I'm not going to die denying the Lord. And I 705 00:36:44,316 --> 00:36:48,476 Speaker 2: was terrified, and I said again, first thing that came 706 00:36:48,516 --> 00:36:52,076 Speaker 2: to me. I said, well, honey, I do I do 707 00:36:52,196 --> 00:36:54,676 Speaker 2: believe in God, but I feel like you don't. You know, 708 00:36:54,876 --> 00:36:57,476 Speaker 2: is there a reason that you don't? And he said, 709 00:36:57,476 --> 00:36:59,276 Speaker 2: miss Hugeons, do you know how many times I've asked 710 00:36:59,316 --> 00:37:03,076 Speaker 2: for help and nobody's ever helped me? And I said, well, 711 00:37:03,116 --> 00:37:05,516 Speaker 2: what do you think this is? I said, you know, 712 00:37:05,636 --> 00:37:08,236 Speaker 2: maybe God wasn't telling you no. Maybe he was just 713 00:37:08,236 --> 00:37:12,036 Speaker 2: telling you to wait for today. And I said, listen, 714 00:37:12,116 --> 00:37:13,876 Speaker 2: I don't I don't know what we're going to do, 715 00:37:14,116 --> 00:37:16,036 Speaker 2: but I promise you two things. One I will not 716 00:37:16,156 --> 00:37:19,836 Speaker 2: leave you, and two what we're going to figure it out? 717 00:37:20,756 --> 00:37:24,356 Speaker 2: And he started asking me all these questions about God, 718 00:37:25,036 --> 00:37:30,796 Speaker 2: and I remember thinking how unusual that was, because of 719 00:37:30,836 --> 00:37:33,796 Speaker 2: separation in church of church and state that my faith 720 00:37:33,876 --> 00:37:36,876 Speaker 2: is not something I can go about and prophesy hear 721 00:37:36,956 --> 00:37:40,036 Speaker 2: at work, you know, but if kids ask you questions 722 00:37:40,076 --> 00:37:43,436 Speaker 2: about anything in a private study, you can certainly tell 723 00:37:43,476 --> 00:37:46,116 Speaker 2: them what you believe or what you feel. And so 724 00:37:46,236 --> 00:37:49,436 Speaker 2: I did my best to answer all of his questions, 725 00:37:51,356 --> 00:37:54,716 Speaker 2: feeling inept because I didn't know the answers to some 726 00:37:54,756 --> 00:37:58,876 Speaker 2: of them. But I remember in that moment just having 727 00:37:58,916 --> 00:38:04,196 Speaker 2: this thought, pray with him, what else do I have? 728 00:38:05,876 --> 00:38:07,876 Speaker 2: It was like the first time in my whole life 729 00:38:07,956 --> 00:38:10,516 Speaker 2: that I really really had to put my faith where 730 00:38:10,596 --> 00:38:13,436 Speaker 2: my fear was. And so I just looked at him 731 00:38:13,436 --> 00:38:15,236 Speaker 2: and I said, listen, I've got an idea. And I 732 00:38:15,276 --> 00:38:19,036 Speaker 2: don't know what you think about this, but how would 733 00:38:19,076 --> 00:38:21,316 Speaker 2: you feel if maybe we prayed about it? You know, 734 00:38:21,356 --> 00:38:23,356 Speaker 2: you've asked me a lot of questions about God. You know, 735 00:38:23,396 --> 00:38:25,676 Speaker 2: maybe we could just pray about it and ask for 736 00:38:25,756 --> 00:38:29,556 Speaker 2: some direction as to what we should do. And I 737 00:38:29,596 --> 00:38:31,836 Speaker 2: really thought that he would say, you know, I don't 738 00:38:31,876 --> 00:38:33,236 Speaker 2: I don't really want to do that, or I'm not 739 00:38:33,276 --> 00:38:36,796 Speaker 2: comfortable doing that. But he didn't. He said, I think 740 00:38:36,796 --> 00:38:40,956 Speaker 2: that would be okay. And there on my knees holding 741 00:38:40,956 --> 00:38:42,236 Speaker 2: the hand of this child. 742 00:38:42,236 --> 00:38:44,756 Speaker 1: You've been on your knees holding his hand this entire time. 743 00:38:45,516 --> 00:38:49,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is probably I would say, maybe forty five 744 00:38:49,156 --> 00:38:53,196 Speaker 2: fifty minutes in this would this what would last ninety 745 00:38:53,276 --> 00:38:59,236 Speaker 2: minutes before it would end? And so holding his hand, 746 00:38:59,436 --> 00:39:03,236 Speaker 2: I prayed the most heartfelt prayer of my life. The 747 00:39:03,276 --> 00:39:06,396 Speaker 2: whole time I prayed his eyes were closed. I kept 748 00:39:06,436 --> 00:39:10,356 Speaker 2: mine open because I was afraid not to. I was crying. 749 00:39:10,596 --> 00:39:13,836 Speaker 2: He was too. I remember thanking God for everything I 750 00:39:13,916 --> 00:39:16,556 Speaker 2: knew about him that I had learned, you know, the 751 00:39:16,596 --> 00:39:23,036 Speaker 2: Friday before, when I'd been listening and during the prayer, 752 00:39:23,156 --> 00:39:28,596 Speaker 2: I remember feeling like this pressure at my back. I 753 00:39:28,756 --> 00:39:30,556 Speaker 2: thought it was just because I had been in this 754 00:39:30,636 --> 00:39:33,996 Speaker 2: position on my knees for so long, But at that moment, 755 00:39:34,036 --> 00:39:37,076 Speaker 2: I just remember praying, Lord, if there is anything, that 756 00:39:37,116 --> 00:39:41,956 Speaker 2: there is any negative entity affecting this situation, remove it 757 00:39:42,316 --> 00:39:47,956 Speaker 2: from the equation. I felt like I was in a battle, 758 00:39:50,796 --> 00:39:54,636 Speaker 2: a spiritual battle, something I had never experienced before, and 759 00:39:56,996 --> 00:40:00,636 Speaker 2: I was scared. But I was going to fight, not 760 00:40:00,716 --> 00:40:02,756 Speaker 2: just for the kids, not just for the staff, not 761 00:40:02,796 --> 00:40:05,876 Speaker 2: even just for me, but for him. See what I 762 00:40:05,956 --> 00:40:11,676 Speaker 2: knew this whole time is that most people who commit 763 00:40:12,076 --> 00:40:18,156 Speaker 2: mass murder before they are homicidal, they are suicidal. Their 764 00:40:18,196 --> 00:40:21,596 Speaker 2: intention in most cases is to not survive their incident. 765 00:40:21,716 --> 00:40:23,676 Speaker 2: Many of them are hoping their lives will be taken 766 00:40:23,716 --> 00:40:26,356 Speaker 2: by law enforcement and they won't have to do it themselves. 767 00:40:27,116 --> 00:40:29,956 Speaker 2: But I did not want to lose him either, and 768 00:40:30,036 --> 00:40:34,516 Speaker 2: so at one point in the prayer, he raises the 769 00:40:34,556 --> 00:40:38,636 Speaker 2: gun up, and I am thinking that he's gonna shoot himself. 770 00:40:38,676 --> 00:40:43,476 Speaker 2: And I remember being terrified and just thinking, what are 771 00:40:43,516 --> 00:40:45,796 Speaker 2: you going to do, and then thinking are you just 772 00:40:45,876 --> 00:40:47,996 Speaker 2: You're just gonna sit here, Molly, You're just gonna watch 773 00:40:48,036 --> 00:40:50,956 Speaker 2: this happen, you know? Can you live with that? And 774 00:40:51,316 --> 00:40:53,636 Speaker 2: I knew I couldn't, And so I let go of 775 00:40:53,676 --> 00:40:55,916 Speaker 2: his shoulder and I reached out with my left hand 776 00:40:55,916 --> 00:40:57,476 Speaker 2: and I still, I don't still know what I was 777 00:40:57,516 --> 00:40:59,676 Speaker 2: gonna do. I guess I maybe was just going to 778 00:40:59,756 --> 00:41:02,316 Speaker 2: try to push the gun down. I don't know. But 779 00:41:02,476 --> 00:41:04,756 Speaker 2: he raised the gun all the way up over his 780 00:41:04,916 --> 00:41:07,716 Speaker 2: head and with his pointer fingers on the trigger, he 781 00:41:07,836 --> 00:41:10,476 Speaker 2: scratched the top of his head with his middle finger, 782 00:41:11,036 --> 00:41:14,436 Speaker 2: and I remember thinking that is not funny, but like, 783 00:41:14,516 --> 00:41:16,236 Speaker 2: at the same time, it was. It was like in 784 00:41:16,316 --> 00:41:18,316 Speaker 2: the middle of this, you know, I teach English, right, 785 00:41:18,356 --> 00:41:21,556 Speaker 2: the climax, the point of greatest emotion in height whatever, 786 00:41:22,276 --> 00:41:25,316 Speaker 2: It's like, God gave me this drop of humor just 787 00:41:25,356 --> 00:41:27,636 Speaker 2: to remind me, like you were still in this, you 788 00:41:27,676 --> 00:41:30,556 Speaker 2: are not alone. This is a good fight, and you're 789 00:41:30,596 --> 00:41:34,756 Speaker 2: in it. And so he raised, you know, lowered the gun, 790 00:41:34,996 --> 00:41:37,476 Speaker 2: and I remember when I finished the prayer. He seen calmer. 791 00:41:38,116 --> 00:41:41,356 Speaker 2: I had asked him several times through the course of 792 00:41:41,396 --> 00:41:44,396 Speaker 2: this about giving me the gun, and every time he 793 00:41:44,396 --> 00:41:46,436 Speaker 2: would say, Missagens, I want to give it to you, 794 00:41:46,956 --> 00:41:50,236 Speaker 2: but I just can't. And so the prayer ended, and 795 00:41:50,276 --> 00:41:53,556 Speaker 2: it was like this moment of just kind of what's next. 796 00:41:53,636 --> 00:41:57,716 Speaker 2: You know, we are sweating profusely. It's still sitting here. 797 00:41:57,756 --> 00:41:59,516 Speaker 2: If I really think about it, I can smell it, 798 00:42:00,156 --> 00:42:03,316 Speaker 2: like I'm just adrenaline and all that that's released in 799 00:42:03,356 --> 00:42:05,876 Speaker 2: a moment like this. And I had been praying, like, Lord, 800 00:42:05,916 --> 00:42:08,596 Speaker 2: I need some kind of opening. And I remember that 801 00:42:08,676 --> 00:42:10,716 Speaker 2: he looked and I had a medal hanging up on 802 00:42:10,756 --> 00:42:12,396 Speaker 2: the wall right up here that was from a five 803 00:42:12,476 --> 00:42:15,876 Speaker 2: K and he just said, I forgot that you like 804 00:42:15,956 --> 00:42:19,396 Speaker 2: to run. And we started talking about running, and I 805 00:42:19,516 --> 00:42:22,996 Speaker 2: just thought, here's your opening. And I said, I said, yea, honey. 806 00:42:23,036 --> 00:42:25,676 Speaker 2: I said, you know, I told you guys yesterday and 807 00:42:25,716 --> 00:42:28,076 Speaker 2: classroom guidance, I'm training for that marathon and I had 808 00:42:28,076 --> 00:42:30,436 Speaker 2: to run ten miles this morning. I said that, you know, 809 00:42:30,516 --> 00:42:33,676 Speaker 2: really rigs havoc on the knees. And he wanted me 810 00:42:33,716 --> 00:42:35,556 Speaker 2: to go back and sit at my desk he thought 811 00:42:35,556 --> 00:42:38,556 Speaker 2: I would be more comfortable, and I just said, I 812 00:42:38,996 --> 00:42:41,636 Speaker 2: can't do that. I can't leave where I am. I'm 813 00:42:41,636 --> 00:42:43,716 Speaker 2: going to stay right here, no matter how much my 814 00:42:43,836 --> 00:42:46,356 Speaker 2: knees hurt until you until you give me that gun. 815 00:42:47,836 --> 00:42:50,116 Speaker 2: And he said, well, I think maybe I want to 816 00:42:50,116 --> 00:42:52,716 Speaker 2: give it to you. And then I had this thought, 817 00:42:53,596 --> 00:42:56,756 Speaker 2: if he gives that weapon to me, then he's going 818 00:42:56,796 --> 00:42:59,876 Speaker 2: to feel like he's giving up his family. And so 819 00:42:59,956 --> 00:43:02,636 Speaker 2: I looked at him and I said, well, listen, why 820 00:43:02,636 --> 00:43:05,236 Speaker 2: don't you let me take it and then you don't 821 00:43:05,276 --> 00:43:08,956 Speaker 2: have to give it to me. And he said, okay, 822 00:43:09,516 --> 00:43:11,716 Speaker 2: I think that'd be okay, and he leaned over and 823 00:43:11,756 --> 00:43:15,396 Speaker 2: put the safety on, and I remember winging over him 824 00:43:15,556 --> 00:43:18,756 Speaker 2: and taking the gun, and I just put my arms 825 00:43:18,796 --> 00:43:20,836 Speaker 2: around there and we just hugged each other, me on 826 00:43:20,876 --> 00:43:24,436 Speaker 2: my knees and him in his chair, and I'm patting 827 00:43:24,516 --> 00:43:26,356 Speaker 2: him with one hand, and I remember telling him how 828 00:43:26,436 --> 00:43:28,476 Speaker 2: much I loved him, how proud of him I was. 829 00:43:28,516 --> 00:43:30,876 Speaker 2: I remember saying, you know, the right thing is never easy, 830 00:43:30,916 --> 00:43:33,756 Speaker 2: but it's still the right thing. And the whole time 831 00:43:34,036 --> 00:43:36,116 Speaker 2: I am holding what I now know is a fully 832 00:43:36,156 --> 00:43:39,276 Speaker 2: loaded gun, just because of the heaviness of it, and 833 00:43:40,996 --> 00:43:43,476 Speaker 2: we stayed like that for a long time. I remember 834 00:43:43,516 --> 00:43:45,276 Speaker 2: watching the clock. I still have it on the wall 835 00:43:45,276 --> 00:43:48,036 Speaker 2: back there. An elementary teacher told me one time, if 836 00:43:48,036 --> 00:43:51,036 Speaker 2: the kid ever hugs you, don't let go until they do. 837 00:43:51,236 --> 00:43:53,516 Speaker 2: And I'll tell you I do that with everybody. If 838 00:43:53,556 --> 00:43:55,516 Speaker 2: somebody hugs me, I never let go until they do. 839 00:43:56,556 --> 00:43:58,516 Speaker 2: They must need it, and so we stayed that way 840 00:43:58,596 --> 00:44:01,796 Speaker 2: for a long time. I remember during that just thinking, 841 00:44:02,516 --> 00:44:04,916 Speaker 2: just hold him like he's yours, Molly, just hold him 842 00:44:04,956 --> 00:44:08,596 Speaker 2: like he's yours. I had two boys, so I understood that. 843 00:44:09,276 --> 00:44:14,076 Speaker 2: And finally when he let go, I stood up. I remember, 844 00:44:14,276 --> 00:44:17,676 Speaker 2: like the blood my legs like ate horribly, like I 845 00:44:17,676 --> 00:44:20,316 Speaker 2: guess all the circulation, the blood running back through my legs, 846 00:44:20,356 --> 00:44:24,996 Speaker 2: and I remember thinking, though, you've never seen or read 847 00:44:25,036 --> 00:44:29,356 Speaker 2: about a school shooter who only has one weapon, and 848 00:44:29,436 --> 00:44:32,236 Speaker 2: so it was my assumption that there were more, and 849 00:44:32,316 --> 00:44:35,796 Speaker 2: so I said to him, why don't you give me 850 00:44:35,876 --> 00:44:38,436 Speaker 2: all of it? And I was hoping if there were 851 00:44:38,476 --> 00:44:41,196 Speaker 2: other weapons he would give me those as well, but 852 00:44:41,316 --> 00:44:42,996 Speaker 2: he gave me I already had the gun, and so 853 00:44:43,076 --> 00:44:45,756 Speaker 2: he gave me the magazine and the holster. I walked 854 00:44:45,796 --> 00:44:47,596 Speaker 2: back around my desk right here and in the corner. 855 00:44:47,636 --> 00:44:50,876 Speaker 2: I had two filing cabinets, and I wore the key 856 00:44:50,956 --> 00:44:53,556 Speaker 2: to one of them around my neck on my lanyard. 857 00:44:54,356 --> 00:44:57,316 Speaker 2: I still do, actually don't have the filing cabinet, but 858 00:44:57,316 --> 00:44:59,756 Speaker 2: I still have the key. And I remember going up 859 00:44:59,796 --> 00:45:02,796 Speaker 2: and unlocking the drawer and like pulling it out and 860 00:45:02,836 --> 00:45:05,356 Speaker 2: making a dent in my purse and thinking, I can't 861 00:45:05,356 --> 00:45:07,396 Speaker 2: believe I'm making a dent in my purse to put 862 00:45:07,396 --> 00:45:10,396 Speaker 2: a gun, but then putting in there and closing the 863 00:45:10,476 --> 00:45:12,916 Speaker 2: drawer and locking it, and like the key falling back 864 00:45:12,916 --> 00:45:16,956 Speaker 2: around my neck and literally thinking that's one way. And 865 00:45:17,036 --> 00:45:19,636 Speaker 2: so I walked back around and sat beside him because 866 00:45:19,636 --> 00:45:22,476 Speaker 2: there was another chair adjacent to his, and we just 867 00:45:22,516 --> 00:45:25,916 Speaker 2: started talking. We probably talked for fifteen more minutes. He 868 00:45:25,956 --> 00:45:27,756 Speaker 2: wanted to know what I was going to do. He 869 00:45:27,796 --> 00:45:29,516 Speaker 2: wanted to know what was going to happen to him. 870 00:45:29,996 --> 00:45:33,236 Speaker 2: I couldn't answer any of those questions, so I stayed 871 00:45:33,596 --> 00:45:36,036 Speaker 2: on the path that I had taken earlier with we 872 00:45:36,156 --> 00:45:38,996 Speaker 2: have to protect his family. And I said to him, 873 00:45:39,356 --> 00:45:41,596 Speaker 2: I said, honey, listen, I have got this friend who 874 00:45:41,676 --> 00:45:44,996 Speaker 2: works in law enforcements, and I think he can help us. 875 00:45:44,996 --> 00:45:47,996 Speaker 2: His name is Chris, And I said, wouldn't be okay 876 00:45:48,036 --> 00:45:51,116 Speaker 2: with you if I called him? And he said, yes, ma'am, 877 00:45:51,196 --> 00:45:53,876 Speaker 2: I think that would be okay. And so what he 878 00:45:53,916 --> 00:45:56,556 Speaker 2: didn't know was that Chris was the first name of 879 00:45:56,596 --> 00:46:00,796 Speaker 2: our student resource officer. At the time, we had one 880 00:46:00,916 --> 00:46:04,316 Speaker 2: SRO that covered four schools in our county, so we 881 00:46:04,356 --> 00:46:07,116 Speaker 2: only had three county wide. I knew there was only 882 00:46:07,116 --> 00:46:09,556 Speaker 2: a twenty five percent chance that Chris would be here, 883 00:46:10,156 --> 00:46:12,676 Speaker 2: but I called him, and I'll never forget when he 884 00:46:12,716 --> 00:46:15,676 Speaker 2: answered the phone because I was so relieved, and I said, 885 00:46:15,676 --> 00:46:18,276 Speaker 2: you know, hey, it's Mollie. Is there any chance that 886 00:46:18,316 --> 00:46:20,596 Speaker 2: you're at the middle school today? And he said, well, 887 00:46:20,596 --> 00:46:22,676 Speaker 2: I actually i am, but I'm in the conference room. 888 00:46:22,716 --> 00:46:25,116 Speaker 2: I'm meeting with some parents. Can I call you back 889 00:46:25,156 --> 00:46:27,356 Speaker 2: in a few minutes. And I said, well, this is 890 00:46:27,436 --> 00:46:32,396 Speaker 2: kind of urgent, but because the whole time, the child 891 00:46:32,436 --> 00:46:35,236 Speaker 2: is sitting across from me looking at me, and I 892 00:46:35,276 --> 00:46:37,636 Speaker 2: am terrified he is going to jump up and bolt 893 00:46:37,676 --> 00:46:40,276 Speaker 2: out the door. And so I said, yes, that'll be okay, 894 00:46:40,276 --> 00:46:42,316 Speaker 2: but if you'll just come down as quickly as you can. 895 00:46:42,516 --> 00:46:44,796 Speaker 2: And so as soon as we hung up the phone, 896 00:46:44,876 --> 00:46:47,516 Speaker 2: I realized that nothing in my voice. Nothing about the 897 00:46:47,516 --> 00:46:50,796 Speaker 2: words I'd chosen would have been any indicator to Chris 898 00:46:50,876 --> 00:46:52,236 Speaker 2: on the other end of the line that this was 899 00:46:52,276 --> 00:46:55,876 Speaker 2: an emergency, although I was hoping he would read into something. 900 00:46:56,276 --> 00:46:59,276 Speaker 2: And so I looked at the child and I said, Honey, 901 00:46:59,276 --> 00:47:01,156 Speaker 2: would it be okay with you if I sent a 902 00:47:01,236 --> 00:47:03,436 Speaker 2: text message to my husband to let him know that 903 00:47:03,476 --> 00:47:06,116 Speaker 2: Bradley has baseball practice after school today. That was our 904 00:47:06,156 --> 00:47:10,636 Speaker 2: oldest child. And he said, well yeah, And so I 905 00:47:10,676 --> 00:47:13,836 Speaker 2: sent a text message to Chris and it said I've 906 00:47:13,876 --> 00:47:15,636 Speaker 2: just taken a loaded gun off of a child in 907 00:47:15,636 --> 00:47:18,556 Speaker 2: my office. He doesn't know that I've contacted you. It's 908 00:47:18,636 --> 00:47:22,636 Speaker 2: locked in a drawer, Please come down quickly. And I 909 00:47:22,676 --> 00:47:25,476 Speaker 2: remember watching the screen fade to black and just hoping 910 00:47:25,516 --> 00:47:29,676 Speaker 2: it went through. You know, old building still roof allows 911 00:47:29,676 --> 00:47:33,596 Speaker 2: for terrible cell signal, And so I remember I even 912 00:47:33,876 --> 00:47:36,276 Speaker 2: got on our student management system and said, honey, do 913 00:47:36,276 --> 00:47:38,836 Speaker 2: you have any missing assignments? And he looked at me 914 00:47:38,996 --> 00:47:41,276 Speaker 2: like I've lost my mind? And I did. I printed 915 00:47:41,316 --> 00:47:43,276 Speaker 2: him off, went through everything the kid was missing in 916 00:47:43,356 --> 00:47:47,036 Speaker 2: language arts, math siens and social studies, just trying to 917 00:47:47,076 --> 00:47:49,396 Speaker 2: buy some time. And at the end of that he 918 00:47:49,516 --> 00:47:52,196 Speaker 2: said missagings. I think, I'm I think I'm just going 919 00:47:52,276 --> 00:47:54,996 Speaker 2: to go back to class, and I said, no, let me, 920 00:47:55,116 --> 00:47:57,156 Speaker 2: let me try one more time. So this time I 921 00:47:57,196 --> 00:48:01,316 Speaker 2: made the decision to call our assistant principle. I knew 922 00:48:01,356 --> 00:48:04,156 Speaker 2: that I could have a conversation on my end that 923 00:48:04,236 --> 00:48:07,476 Speaker 2: would make absolutely no sense on her end, and that 924 00:48:07,516 --> 00:48:09,596 Speaker 2: she would get somebody she would know. So thing was 925 00:48:09,596 --> 00:48:12,796 Speaker 2: not right. And so when I called her office, Chris, 926 00:48:12,876 --> 00:48:17,316 Speaker 2: the SRO answered her phone and I said, hey, it's Mollie. 927 00:48:17,516 --> 00:48:19,436 Speaker 2: I said, you know, I know you're working on something earlier. 928 00:48:19,476 --> 00:48:21,196 Speaker 2: Can you come on down now? And he said, well, 929 00:48:21,236 --> 00:48:25,116 Speaker 2: we've actually had to move into vice the vice principal's 930 00:48:25,116 --> 00:48:28,516 Speaker 2: office in order to review some bus footage from the incident. 931 00:48:28,796 --> 00:48:30,996 Speaker 2: And I can tell he's a little frustrated, because you know, 932 00:48:31,036 --> 00:48:33,596 Speaker 2: he is hard at work here trying to investigate a situation. 933 00:48:33,916 --> 00:48:37,796 Speaker 2: And I continue to interrupt, So I said, well, listen, 934 00:48:37,876 --> 00:48:41,236 Speaker 2: can you check your messages because I sent you an 935 00:48:41,236 --> 00:48:43,956 Speaker 2: email or a text or something. Can you see if 936 00:48:43,956 --> 00:48:46,316 Speaker 2: you got that. I'm having trouble getting those out today. 937 00:48:47,436 --> 00:48:50,516 Speaker 2: And he he looks at his phone and he says, Molly, 938 00:48:50,596 --> 00:48:52,676 Speaker 2: I don't I don't have anything from you, and then 939 00:48:52,716 --> 00:48:56,116 Speaker 2: he said, well, actually I just got a text message, 940 00:48:56,196 --> 00:48:58,316 Speaker 2: and he read the first line of it and he said, 941 00:48:58,316 --> 00:48:59,596 Speaker 2: I want you to stay on the phone as if 942 00:48:59,636 --> 00:49:01,796 Speaker 2: we're still having a conversation. And I'm on my way, 943 00:49:02,076 --> 00:49:04,596 Speaker 2: and I remember seeing him up here, at his face 944 00:49:04,636 --> 00:49:07,876 Speaker 2: coming through that glass pane, and just thinking, you're not alone, 945 00:49:08,316 --> 00:49:10,636 Speaker 2: which I hadn't been alone, you know, but now it 946 00:49:10,716 --> 00:49:13,676 Speaker 2: was like I had a person with me. And Chris 947 00:49:13,716 --> 00:49:17,036 Speaker 2: came in and conducted the most gracious and kind interview. 948 00:49:17,716 --> 00:49:20,276 Speaker 2: The child told him the same story he told me, 949 00:49:21,036 --> 00:49:25,076 Speaker 2: and then he looked at Chris and he said, I 950 00:49:25,156 --> 00:49:27,436 Speaker 2: went to Miss Hudgins because I thought she was the 951 00:49:27,476 --> 00:49:30,956 Speaker 2: only person that could talk me out of this. And 952 00:49:31,036 --> 00:49:33,556 Speaker 2: I remember thinking, if I live to be one hundred 953 00:49:33,636 --> 00:49:36,596 Speaker 2: years old, I will never get a compliment any greater 954 00:49:36,716 --> 00:49:39,716 Speaker 2: than that one. So I was allowed to stay with 955 00:49:39,836 --> 00:49:42,436 Speaker 2: him the whole time. I wanted to leave school with him, 956 00:49:43,036 --> 00:49:45,836 Speaker 2: but Chris said to me, Molly, your job is done, 957 00:49:46,596 --> 00:49:49,996 Speaker 2: and so I stayed. I wrote a statement for the 958 00:49:49,996 --> 00:49:53,156 Speaker 2: police Central Office came they wanted me to go home. 959 00:49:53,636 --> 00:49:55,276 Speaker 2: They felt like I should be able to take the 960 00:49:55,356 --> 00:49:57,036 Speaker 2: day off or take a couple of days and I 961 00:49:57,076 --> 00:49:59,196 Speaker 2: remember saying, well, who's going to do bus duty if 962 00:49:59,236 --> 00:50:02,596 Speaker 2: I'm not here? Like, just stay in the course, right, 963 00:50:03,316 --> 00:50:05,716 Speaker 2: And I did. I stayed all day, I did bus study, 964 00:50:05,796 --> 00:50:07,676 Speaker 2: I went to baseball practice. It was Wednesday night, and 965 00:50:07,716 --> 00:50:10,196 Speaker 2: I went to church and came back the next morning, 966 00:50:10,236 --> 00:50:13,036 Speaker 2: got up in around eight miles, slept like a baby, 967 00:50:13,836 --> 00:50:16,636 Speaker 2: got to hear the next morning, and remember thinking, I'm 968 00:50:16,676 --> 00:50:19,756 Speaker 2: so glad the flag is not at high staff. And 969 00:50:19,836 --> 00:50:21,836 Speaker 2: it wasn't until I got to my door and I 970 00:50:21,916 --> 00:50:24,076 Speaker 2: was kind of shaky, like trying to put the key 971 00:50:24,116 --> 00:50:27,796 Speaker 2: in that I remember saying, Oh, good grief, Molly, it's 972 00:50:27,796 --> 00:50:30,716 Speaker 2: in office going in. It would take me a while 973 00:50:30,756 --> 00:50:33,396 Speaker 2: to realize that most people who experience a traumatic event 974 00:50:33,476 --> 00:50:35,316 Speaker 2: don't normally return to the city of the crime. And 975 00:50:35,436 --> 00:50:41,036 Speaker 2: you know, work for seven or eight hours, and then 976 00:50:41,076 --> 00:50:43,876 Speaker 2: I wouldn't see him again for a month. 977 00:50:46,276 --> 00:50:54,276 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute. 978 00:51:02,436 --> 00:51:05,196 Speaker 2: On that Friday, after this happened, one of our eighth 979 00:51:05,236 --> 00:51:08,156 Speaker 2: graders came to me and said, Miss Hudgens, are y'all 980 00:51:08,156 --> 00:51:09,876 Speaker 2: gonna talk to us about this? Are we just going 981 00:51:09,916 --> 00:51:12,396 Speaker 2: to like sweeping under the rug and act like nothing happened? 982 00:51:12,956 --> 00:51:14,516 Speaker 2: And I went to the principles that I want to 983 00:51:14,516 --> 00:51:16,036 Speaker 2: talk to all the eighth grader So I put them 984 00:51:16,076 --> 00:51:18,476 Speaker 2: on our cafeteria. There were about two hundred of them, 985 00:51:18,716 --> 00:51:20,716 Speaker 2: and I remember standing on something I think it was 986 00:51:20,756 --> 00:51:22,636 Speaker 2: a chair, just so they could all see me. And 987 00:51:22,636 --> 00:51:27,196 Speaker 2: I remember saying, nobody knows what happened in my office 988 00:51:27,196 --> 00:51:29,596 Speaker 2: this week except for me and this other student, and 989 00:51:29,676 --> 00:51:31,876 Speaker 2: so I want to answer any questions you all have 990 00:51:32,036 --> 00:51:34,236 Speaker 2: because I want you to know the truth. They asked 991 00:51:34,316 --> 00:51:37,396 Speaker 2: questions for almost an hour. I would not tell them 992 00:51:37,476 --> 00:51:40,076 Speaker 2: who he was. I knew that over the course of 993 00:51:40,156 --> 00:51:42,956 Speaker 2: time they would probably figure out who he was based 994 00:51:42,996 --> 00:51:45,236 Speaker 2: on just who did not return to school from an 995 00:51:45,276 --> 00:51:50,036 Speaker 2: extended absence. But I remember saying to him, do you 996 00:51:50,036 --> 00:51:53,396 Speaker 2: guys remember the guidance lesson that we talked about on 997 00:51:53,596 --> 00:51:56,316 Speaker 2: Tuesday before this happened, And it was a lesson on 998 00:51:56,356 --> 00:51:59,196 Speaker 2: September eleventh. Our kids were not alive on September eleventh. 999 00:51:59,276 --> 00:52:01,676 Speaker 2: So there's a lesson called one Life Can Make a 1000 00:52:01,676 --> 00:52:04,476 Speaker 2: Difference and it's about Wells Crowther, who lost his life 1001 00:52:04,516 --> 00:52:08,236 Speaker 2: in the World Trade Center rescuing people. And so it 1002 00:52:08,276 --> 00:52:11,476 Speaker 2: was a lesson on how anybody can do something to 1003 00:52:11,556 --> 00:52:13,836 Speaker 2: help someone else. You just have to be willing and 1004 00:52:13,916 --> 00:52:17,156 Speaker 2: available and recognize that need. And so I talked to 1005 00:52:17,236 --> 00:52:20,556 Speaker 2: them about that, and I reminded them that one of 1006 00:52:20,596 --> 00:52:23,756 Speaker 2: the takeaways they were supposed to get is that sometimes 1007 00:52:24,156 --> 00:52:26,796 Speaker 2: there may be somebody who's struggling and they may not 1008 00:52:26,916 --> 00:52:28,596 Speaker 2: know how to ask for help, or they may be 1009 00:52:28,636 --> 00:52:31,036 Speaker 2: afraid or an embarrassed or ashamed to do that. And 1010 00:52:31,076 --> 00:52:33,596 Speaker 2: I remember saying, that's where you have to stand in 1011 00:52:33,636 --> 00:52:35,556 Speaker 2: the gap for them. You come and tell me, and 1012 00:52:35,596 --> 00:52:38,156 Speaker 2: we'll figure out what to do. And then I remember 1013 00:52:38,156 --> 00:52:42,076 Speaker 2: telling them sometimes that person may be you. You may 1014 00:52:42,116 --> 00:52:44,876 Speaker 2: be the person who's struggling and you may think nobody 1015 00:52:44,916 --> 00:52:47,356 Speaker 2: can help you. But if you come to me, we'll 1016 00:52:47,396 --> 00:52:50,876 Speaker 2: figure out something. So I told him all said, you know, 1017 00:52:50,996 --> 00:52:54,676 Speaker 2: he did on Wednesday exactly what I told you guys 1018 00:52:54,716 --> 00:52:57,956 Speaker 2: to do. He was struggling, he was going through something, 1019 00:52:57,996 --> 00:52:59,756 Speaker 2: he did not know what to do, and he came 1020 00:52:59,796 --> 00:53:01,516 Speaker 2: to me for help. And I said, so here's what 1021 00:53:01,516 --> 00:53:04,636 Speaker 2: we're going to do. We are going to protect him. 1022 00:53:05,196 --> 00:53:07,436 Speaker 2: And I remember telling them they could talk to anybody 1023 00:53:07,476 --> 00:53:10,876 Speaker 2: at school, at you know, the family, me, anybody on 1024 00:53:10,916 --> 00:53:13,596 Speaker 2: our staff about what had happened. But I remember saying 1025 00:53:13,636 --> 00:53:17,036 Speaker 2: we're not going to talk about this outside of our 1026 00:53:17,076 --> 00:53:22,036 Speaker 2: school family, and you want to talk about miracles. Those 1027 00:53:22,036 --> 00:53:27,796 Speaker 2: two under eighth graders never told his name, so it 1028 00:53:27,876 --> 00:53:31,476 Speaker 2: was never published. The media never descended on his home, 1029 00:53:32,716 --> 00:53:37,876 Speaker 2: his family never had to move. But I only got 1030 00:53:37,876 --> 00:53:41,316 Speaker 2: to see him one more time. I got subpoenaed, and 1031 00:53:41,396 --> 00:53:44,116 Speaker 2: I had prayed that I wouldn't. I did not want 1032 00:53:44,156 --> 00:53:49,236 Speaker 2: any consequence he received to be connected to me. And 1033 00:53:49,556 --> 00:53:52,476 Speaker 2: I got there for court and the judge saw me 1034 00:53:52,676 --> 00:53:56,236 Speaker 2: and he said, I need to talk to you in 1035 00:53:56,236 --> 00:53:59,236 Speaker 2: my chambers. And we went in and he said, Missugens, 1036 00:53:59,276 --> 00:54:01,636 Speaker 2: I just went to a training in Memphis a month 1037 00:54:01,676 --> 00:54:06,116 Speaker 2: ago and you presented. And I said, yes, Sir, I did. 1038 00:54:06,556 --> 00:54:10,676 Speaker 2: And he said on school shooters. I said I know. 1039 00:54:11,556 --> 00:54:13,836 Speaker 2: And he said I can't believe this, and I said 1040 00:54:14,196 --> 00:54:17,156 Speaker 2: I can't either, and he said, well, we're going to 1041 00:54:17,196 --> 00:54:20,516 Speaker 2: do something different. You're not going to testify. He said, 1042 00:54:20,516 --> 00:54:22,556 Speaker 2: I'm going to bring in the prosecutor and the defense 1043 00:54:22,596 --> 00:54:24,836 Speaker 2: attorney and I just very simply want you to tell 1044 00:54:24,876 --> 00:54:28,396 Speaker 2: them what happened in your office that day. And I 1045 00:54:28,396 --> 00:54:31,196 Speaker 2: guess I needed to tell it because I re enacted it. 1046 00:54:31,236 --> 00:54:32,876 Speaker 2: I got down on my knees and held hands with 1047 00:54:32,916 --> 00:54:36,556 Speaker 2: the prosecutor. And at the end of it, I remember 1048 00:54:37,756 --> 00:54:40,636 Speaker 2: everything had changed, you know. She had come in like 1049 00:54:40,636 --> 00:54:43,036 Speaker 2: a ready to prosecute, and he had come in ready 1050 00:54:43,076 --> 00:54:45,676 Speaker 2: to defend, and all of a sudden it was different. 1051 00:54:46,916 --> 00:54:49,436 Speaker 2: And I remember one of them said to me, what 1052 00:54:49,476 --> 00:54:52,316 Speaker 2: do you think we should do? I said, I think 1053 00:54:52,356 --> 00:54:55,036 Speaker 2: we should get help for him. He came to me 1054 00:54:55,116 --> 00:54:56,756 Speaker 2: and he asked for help, and I promised him I 1055 00:54:56,756 --> 00:55:00,516 Speaker 2: would see this through to the end. And I remember saying, 1056 00:55:00,876 --> 00:55:03,356 Speaker 2: whatever we do is going to set a precedent, and 1057 00:55:03,396 --> 00:55:05,716 Speaker 2: I would really love for our little town in the 1058 00:55:05,756 --> 00:55:09,076 Speaker 2: middle of nowhere to get it right. And I knew 1059 00:55:09,476 --> 00:55:11,396 Speaker 2: that if he went to jail, the course of his 1060 00:55:11,476 --> 00:55:15,036 Speaker 2: life would be changed forever. And I wanted more than 1061 00:55:15,076 --> 00:55:17,196 Speaker 2: anything for him to have a second chance. And I 1062 00:55:17,236 --> 00:55:19,676 Speaker 2: believe if we could protect his identity, he could have that. 1063 00:55:20,876 --> 00:55:25,876 Speaker 2: And they listened, and they made the decision that he 1064 00:55:25,916 --> 00:55:29,956 Speaker 2: would go to an impatient mental health facility. I remember 1065 00:55:30,076 --> 00:55:34,076 Speaker 2: asking the one ask I had that day is if 1066 00:55:34,076 --> 00:55:37,076 Speaker 2: it was okay with him, if I could see him 1067 00:55:37,316 --> 00:55:40,796 Speaker 2: or speak to him again, And he still had on 1068 00:55:40,916 --> 00:55:44,636 Speaker 2: the same clothes he'd had on that day obviously when 1069 00:55:44,676 --> 00:55:48,196 Speaker 2: he left here, he had worn other clothing at the 1070 00:55:48,236 --> 00:55:51,356 Speaker 2: facility where he was kept, so it was a very 1071 00:55:51,396 --> 00:55:56,676 Speaker 2: real same shirt, same pants, and he was handcuffed, and 1072 00:55:56,756 --> 00:56:02,396 Speaker 2: he was shackled around his waist and he had shackles 1073 00:56:02,436 --> 00:56:07,716 Speaker 2: around his ankles. So I remember like whispering to one 1074 00:56:07,756 --> 00:56:12,756 Speaker 2: of the deputies. Is all of that necessary? And he 1075 00:56:12,836 --> 00:56:15,316 Speaker 2: looked at me and he said, Molly, do you know 1076 00:56:15,356 --> 00:56:19,356 Speaker 2: what he did? And I said, I guess I'll always 1077 00:56:19,356 --> 00:56:24,316 Speaker 2: be a little too close to it. So he was 1078 00:56:24,356 --> 00:56:28,996 Speaker 2: seated on a bench. Our courthouse is very old, and 1079 00:56:28,996 --> 00:56:31,916 Speaker 2: it even has some benches that that probably came from 1080 00:56:31,956 --> 00:56:35,716 Speaker 2: a church. They looked like a church pew. And I 1081 00:56:35,756 --> 00:56:38,276 Speaker 2: remember he was seated and because of his hands, he 1082 00:56:38,516 --> 00:56:42,716 Speaker 2: couldn't stand up on this without help. And so before 1083 00:56:42,756 --> 00:56:44,356 Speaker 2: I even thought about it, I just got down on 1084 00:56:44,356 --> 00:56:46,516 Speaker 2: my knees right in front of him, and I remember 1085 00:56:46,596 --> 00:56:56,836 Speaker 2: holding his hands. And he never spoke. I don't, I 1086 00:56:56,916 --> 00:57:02,036 Speaker 2: honestly don't think he could. But I looked at him 1087 00:57:02,076 --> 00:57:04,116 Speaker 2: and I told him all the things I said in 1088 00:57:04,116 --> 00:57:07,316 Speaker 2: my office, that I loved him, that I was proud 1089 00:57:07,316 --> 00:57:14,076 Speaker 2: of him, and I reminded him that I was going 1090 00:57:14,156 --> 00:57:16,276 Speaker 2: to be there until the end. I would see this 1091 00:57:16,356 --> 00:57:18,636 Speaker 2: through the end. And I remember saying, I said, listen, 1092 00:57:19,036 --> 00:57:20,596 Speaker 2: I don't know what that's going to look like. I 1093 00:57:20,636 --> 00:57:22,876 Speaker 2: don't know how much I will be able to be involved, 1094 00:57:22,916 --> 00:57:27,556 Speaker 2: but I promise you I will be here. And I 1095 00:57:27,596 --> 00:57:31,796 Speaker 2: got up and I left, and I've never seen him again. 1096 00:57:33,636 --> 00:57:38,596 Speaker 2: On the fourth anniversary, a lady calls me from our community. 1097 00:57:38,836 --> 00:57:41,196 Speaker 2: She had worked at our school, so she knew who 1098 00:57:41,196 --> 00:57:43,316 Speaker 2: the child was, but she and her family owned a 1099 00:57:43,356 --> 00:57:46,756 Speaker 2: small business and she had no idea this was the 1100 00:57:46,796 --> 00:57:49,236 Speaker 2: fourth anniversary of this incident. And she said to me, 1101 00:57:49,556 --> 00:57:54,356 Speaker 2: Miss Huggens, She said, the young man who was involved 1102 00:57:54,356 --> 00:57:57,236 Speaker 2: in the incident at school has applied for a job 1103 00:57:57,276 --> 00:58:01,276 Speaker 2: at our business. And she said, we really try to 1104 00:58:01,356 --> 00:58:04,876 Speaker 2: hire people who struggle. Maybe they don't have family, or 1105 00:58:04,916 --> 00:58:07,236 Speaker 2: they just don't feel like they fit in. And she said, 1106 00:58:07,276 --> 00:58:09,116 Speaker 2: I really feel like this would be a good place 1107 00:58:09,276 --> 00:58:12,316 Speaker 2: for him, but we want to hire him if you 1108 00:58:12,716 --> 00:58:15,596 Speaker 2: don't want me to. And I cried, and I said, 1109 00:58:15,596 --> 00:58:17,756 Speaker 2: do you know what today is? Is the fourth anniversary? 1110 00:58:17,796 --> 00:58:20,036 Speaker 2: And I said, and you're calling to ask me to 1111 00:58:20,076 --> 00:58:23,436 Speaker 2: give him a job. Reference yes, hire him, Please hire him, 1112 00:58:24,316 --> 00:58:31,876 Speaker 2: and she did. She did. I thought many times about 1113 00:58:32,316 --> 00:58:34,756 Speaker 2: going to the business, you know, just like showing up. 1114 00:58:35,316 --> 00:58:38,396 Speaker 2: I wanted to see him so much. I just wanted 1115 00:58:38,436 --> 00:58:40,356 Speaker 2: to know that he was okay. I just wanted him 1116 00:58:40,356 --> 00:58:43,276 Speaker 2: to know somebody still cared about him. But something in 1117 00:58:43,316 --> 00:58:49,476 Speaker 2: me just said, don't push Molly. And so when our 1118 00:58:49,516 --> 00:58:52,796 Speaker 2: book came out about our story, he found out from 1119 00:58:52,836 --> 00:58:58,156 Speaker 2: someone about the book, and a person came to me 1120 00:58:58,236 --> 00:59:00,116 Speaker 2: and said he would really like a copy that I 1121 00:59:00,116 --> 00:59:02,156 Speaker 2: think I can get that to him, and I said, well, 1122 00:59:02,196 --> 00:59:04,276 Speaker 2: I will give him one. And so I remember I 1123 00:59:04,356 --> 00:59:06,356 Speaker 2: wrote in the cover everything I ever wanted to say 1124 00:59:06,396 --> 00:59:09,036 Speaker 2: to him, and I remember I wrote in there, listen, 1125 00:59:09,796 --> 00:59:12,996 Speaker 2: I don't know if you ever want to talk about 1126 00:59:12,996 --> 00:59:16,116 Speaker 2: this again, so I'm not going to try to find you, 1127 00:59:16,276 --> 00:59:19,876 Speaker 2: I promise, but I also want you to know that 1128 00:59:19,956 --> 00:59:22,756 Speaker 2: if you ever want to talk about this for the 1129 00:59:22,796 --> 00:59:27,116 Speaker 2: rest of your life, I will be here and you 1130 00:59:27,156 --> 00:59:32,436 Speaker 2: know where to find me. And I really thought, I 1131 00:59:32,436 --> 00:59:38,436 Speaker 2: think I really hoped that he would read that book 1132 00:59:38,516 --> 00:59:42,276 Speaker 2: because the last chapter is all for him, and I 1133 00:59:42,276 --> 00:59:44,476 Speaker 2: thought you would read it and then like send me 1134 00:59:44,516 --> 00:59:47,956 Speaker 2: an email or reach out or something. But I had 1135 00:59:47,996 --> 00:59:52,036 Speaker 2: to realize that the way I experienced his incident was 1136 00:59:52,076 --> 00:59:55,116 Speaker 2: not the same way that he did, and I don't 1137 00:59:55,156 --> 00:59:59,876 Speaker 2: know how he feels about it, and that's okay. I 1138 00:59:59,916 --> 01:00:03,316 Speaker 2: wanted him to have a second chance, whatever that might 1139 01:00:03,356 --> 01:00:08,476 Speaker 2: look like, and he got that, and there's a great 1140 01:00:08,556 --> 01:00:12,956 Speaker 2: joy for me. And knowing that this September will have 1141 01:00:13,036 --> 01:00:16,236 Speaker 2: been eight years and even though he has lived so 1142 01:00:16,316 --> 01:00:20,356 Speaker 2: closely to me, I've never seen him again. And I 1143 01:00:21,116 --> 01:00:24,236 Speaker 2: figure that one day, if it's God's will and in 1144 01:00:24,276 --> 01:00:28,076 Speaker 2: his timing, that I'll run into him somewhere. It'll probably be, 1145 01:00:28,316 --> 01:00:31,956 Speaker 2: you know, pumping gas or at a grocery store, and 1146 01:00:33,076 --> 01:00:36,276 Speaker 2: I hope that when I do that, he'll know how 1147 01:00:36,276 --> 01:00:39,916 Speaker 2: happy I am to see him, how grateful I am 1148 01:00:39,956 --> 01:00:42,756 Speaker 2: that he's okay. I want to hug him. There's so 1149 01:00:42,756 --> 01:00:45,316 Speaker 2: many things I want to say to him, and I 1150 01:00:45,396 --> 01:00:50,076 Speaker 2: want to hear. Still, I still want to listen to 1151 01:00:50,196 --> 01:00:53,356 Speaker 2: what he experienced and what he went through as he 1152 01:00:53,516 --> 01:00:58,036 Speaker 2: as he healed. But if that is not meant to be. 1153 01:00:58,276 --> 01:01:01,316 Speaker 2: If that is not the case, then I have accepted 1154 01:01:01,716 --> 01:01:05,476 Speaker 2: that I did my part. I played the role I 1155 01:01:05,516 --> 01:01:09,796 Speaker 2: was supposed to in his life, and tent with that. 1156 01:01:11,836 --> 01:01:17,156 Speaker 1: Well, this has been extraordinary. I have only one last 1157 01:01:17,236 --> 01:01:21,476 Speaker 1: question for you, for what you did. You were awarded 1158 01:01:21,516 --> 01:01:25,356 Speaker 1: the Citizen's Medal of Honor, and I'm just the nation's 1159 01:01:25,436 --> 01:01:29,956 Speaker 1: highest award for courage, and I can you just tell 1160 01:01:29,996 --> 01:01:32,276 Speaker 1: me what you think? What's your definition of courage. 1161 01:01:35,236 --> 01:01:38,956 Speaker 2: Courage is rising up and doing something when you don't 1162 01:01:38,996 --> 01:01:43,876 Speaker 2: think that you can. It's standing in the gap when 1163 01:01:43,916 --> 01:01:49,796 Speaker 2: you think that you're probably not enough. It's knowing that 1164 01:01:51,116 --> 01:01:56,756 Speaker 2: you might lose everything but hoping that you won't. And 1165 01:01:56,796 --> 01:02:04,796 Speaker 2: it's depending on a higher power to give you what 1166 01:02:04,916 --> 01:02:08,796 Speaker 2: you need to finish the job you were prepared to do. 1167 01:02:10,236 --> 01:02:13,036 Speaker 2: You see the Male of Honor recipients. I believe they 1168 01:02:13,076 --> 01:02:15,476 Speaker 2: were all chosen. I think God chose each one of 1169 01:02:15,516 --> 01:02:18,276 Speaker 2: them particularly for their incident. I don't think anybody else 1170 01:02:18,316 --> 01:02:22,316 Speaker 2: in history could have performed the acts of heroisdom and 1171 01:02:22,316 --> 01:02:24,436 Speaker 2: bravery that they did on the day that they did, 1172 01:02:24,476 --> 01:02:27,596 Speaker 2: in the way that they did. Many of them are 1173 01:02:27,636 --> 01:02:31,596 Speaker 2: great men of faith, and their stories are what led 1174 01:02:31,636 --> 01:02:36,276 Speaker 2: me to start to feel as if I could share 1175 01:02:36,316 --> 01:02:42,836 Speaker 2: my story. And with the Citizen's Honors, we have a 1176 01:02:42,916 --> 01:02:48,316 Speaker 2: multitude of recipients who are posthumous recipients who lost their 1177 01:02:48,356 --> 01:02:52,356 Speaker 2: lives in schools and I wear a bracelet every single 1178 01:02:52,436 --> 01:02:56,036 Speaker 2: day that has all their names on it, just to 1179 01:02:56,156 --> 01:03:00,636 Speaker 2: remind me that they were not gifted a ninety minute intervention. 1180 01:03:01,076 --> 01:03:05,076 Speaker 2: You know, they went directly towards an attacker in their 1181 01:03:05,116 --> 01:03:08,396 Speaker 2: schools and they lost their lives doing it. And so 1182 01:03:08,476 --> 01:03:12,276 Speaker 2: when I share story, I feel as if I represent them. 1183 01:03:12,676 --> 01:03:15,556 Speaker 2: I know that I don't will never feel like I 1184 01:03:15,716 --> 01:03:19,156 Speaker 2: fit in a category with any of the citizen or 1185 01:03:19,196 --> 01:03:22,156 Speaker 2: the military recipients. But I know that as long as 1186 01:03:22,156 --> 01:03:25,356 Speaker 2: I'm alive, I can tell their stories and I can 1187 01:03:25,436 --> 01:03:29,476 Speaker 2: remind people of their heroism. And when you look at 1188 01:03:29,516 --> 01:03:32,076 Speaker 2: the Malavana recipients and you look at the faith that 1189 01:03:32,156 --> 01:03:35,916 Speaker 2: they shared, I can't help but think about Gary Biker, 1190 01:03:36,116 --> 01:03:40,356 Speaker 2: who went back to school after Vietnam after he received 1191 01:03:40,356 --> 01:03:42,956 Speaker 2: the medal and got a master's degree in counseling and 1192 01:03:43,036 --> 01:03:45,956 Speaker 2: became a school counselor in Greece, New York for thirty 1193 01:03:46,036 --> 01:03:51,556 Speaker 2: four years. You know, they prepared me for how to 1194 01:03:52,956 --> 01:03:57,116 Speaker 2: go forward in this life, knowing that while some people 1195 01:03:57,156 --> 01:04:00,356 Speaker 2: would perceive what I did as heroism, other people would 1196 01:04:00,356 --> 01:04:03,996 Speaker 2: think I just got lucky. I always say I didn't 1197 01:04:03,996 --> 01:04:07,716 Speaker 2: get lucky, I got rescued. And there's a big difference. 1198 01:04:09,476 --> 01:04:10,716 Speaker 1: Where's the metal. 1199 01:04:11,036 --> 01:04:13,716 Speaker 2: It's right here. I knew you might want to see it. 1200 01:04:13,796 --> 01:04:17,796 Speaker 2: So with the military recipients, with the citations that are 1201 01:04:17,796 --> 01:04:19,676 Speaker 2: written for the Medal of Honor, they all say that 1202 01:04:19,716 --> 01:04:21,796 Speaker 2: they have gone above and beyond the call of duty, 1203 01:04:21,796 --> 01:04:24,876 Speaker 2: which is why that's here. But the engraving that is 1204 01:04:24,916 --> 01:04:27,956 Speaker 2: on this is the same engraving that's on the sarcophagus 1205 01:04:27,956 --> 01:04:30,796 Speaker 2: of the tomb of the Unknown Soldier. And the reason 1206 01:04:30,836 --> 01:04:33,356 Speaker 2: they did that was to marry the idea that heroism 1207 01:04:33,476 --> 01:04:36,356 Speaker 2: is not just a military concept, it's something that happens 1208 01:04:36,356 --> 01:04:39,396 Speaker 2: every day to people across the country. Yeah, and of 1209 01:04:39,396 --> 01:04:41,956 Speaker 2: course if I tilt the computer just slightly, you all 1210 01:04:41,956 --> 01:04:44,916 Speaker 2: can see there's You know, I've been given more accolades 1211 01:04:44,996 --> 01:04:48,036 Speaker 2: and things than I could ever you know, have in 1212 01:04:48,076 --> 01:04:53,276 Speaker 2: a lifetime, but they're nothing compared to just the opportunity 1213 01:04:53,316 --> 01:04:55,116 Speaker 2: to still be here, you know, and get to tell 1214 01:04:55,156 --> 01:04:58,676 Speaker 2: the story and share it with people. And so thank 1215 01:04:58,716 --> 01:05:01,916 Speaker 2: you for this opportunity. Not at all I appreciate it. 1216 01:05:02,276 --> 01:05:05,836 Speaker 1: Well, this has been fantastic. Have a lovely day. Hug 1217 01:05:05,876 --> 01:05:06,596 Speaker 1: those boys from me. 1218 01:05:06,836 --> 01:05:07,596 Speaker 2: I will I will. 1219 01:05:27,956 --> 01:05:31,076 Speaker 1: Medal of Honor. Stories of Courage is written by Meredith 1220 01:05:31,196 --> 01:05:36,116 Speaker 1: Rollins and produced by Meredith Rollins, Constanza Galardo, and Izzy Carter. 1221 01:05:36,636 --> 01:05:39,636 Speaker 1: The show is edited by Ben Nadaf Haffrey, Sound design 1222 01:05:39,756 --> 01:05:44,476 Speaker 1: and additional music by Jake Gorski, recording engineering by Nita Lawrence, 1223 01:05:44,916 --> 01:05:49,436 Speaker 1: fact checking by Arthur Gombert's, original music by Eric Phillips. 1224 01:05:50,316 --> 01:05:51,836 Speaker 1: If you want to learn more about our Medal of 1225 01:05:51,876 --> 01:05:55,676 Speaker 1: Honor recipients, follow us on Instagram and Twitter. We'll be 1226 01:05:55,716 --> 01:05:59,036 Speaker 1: sharing photos and videos of the heroes featured on the show. 1227 01:05:59,556 --> 01:06:02,316 Speaker 1: We'd also love to hear from you dm us with 1228 01:06:02,396 --> 01:06:05,396 Speaker 1: a story about a courageous veteran in your life. If 1229 01:06:05,396 --> 01:06:07,676 Speaker 1: you don't know a veteran, we would love to hear 1230 01:06:07,716 --> 01:06:11,716 Speaker 1: a story of how courage was contagious in your own life. 1231 01:06:12,516 --> 01:06:16,796 Speaker 1: You can find us at Pushkin Bonds. I'm your host, 1232 01:06:17,396 --> 01:06:21,836 Speaker 1: Malcolm Glampa.