WEBVTT - #097 Jason Flom with Jimmy Dennis 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:05.040 I had the privilege of interviewing Jimmy Dennis on April 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:08.920 first of twenty nineteen, shortly after he was released from 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:13.200 death row in Pennsylvania. He served twenty five and a 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:17.120 half years and had two execution dates actually scheduled. I mean, 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:19.599 I'm talking about they asked him what his last meal 0:00:19.720 --> 0:00:22.319 was going to be, where he wanted his remains to 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:26.239 be taken. It's unbelievable. Twenty five and a half years 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:29.120 he lived in his tiny cell on death row with 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:32.200 the lights on. They never turned him off, and yet 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:35.920 he came out joyful, with a bounce in his step, 0:00:36.840 --> 0:00:39.440 ready to get back, you know, as much as he 0:00:39.440 --> 0:00:42.720 could of what he had lost. And here's the incredible thing. 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:46.279 He was a singer when he was wrongfully arrested when 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:48.560 he was eighteen years old. He was on the verge 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:52.479 of getting a record deal with his group. And the 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:54.760 good news is that a few months ago he made 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:57.560 his on stage singing debut in New York City at 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:00.440 the Church of Rock and Roll event. At Gospel he's 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:02.640 saying Hallelujah, and he killed it. I gotta be honest 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:05.760 with you. Now, he's in the process of launching a 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:08.600 dog grooming business with his wife. The business plan is 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:11.240 set and I think they're going to make it a 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:16.400 real success. He's also been the subject of the first 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:21.640 Now This video documentary of the Rawful Conviction podcast and 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:26.319 it is a beautiful, beautiful piece. He's a beautiful, beautiful guy. 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:30.720 And Jimmy, if you're listening, I hope you're smiling and 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:35.279 sleeping well too, because you deserve nothing but the best 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:39.880 of everything, and we're here to share your story. Please 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:44.000 sit back and listen to Jimmy Dennis. 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:53.200 This Paul is from a correction facility and is subject 0:01:53.280 --> 0:02:16.040 to monitoring and recording. 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:10.440 And a hundred years that's man. 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:11.240 I'm a kid. 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:14.520 I didn't do anything, you know, and uh, you know 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:18.000 that was ah, that was real painful, man, you know, 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:21.880 because my life was discarded as if you know, like 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:23.720 I was a piece of trash or something, you know, 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:26.840 one hundred years and I had dreams and I wanted 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:29.720 to do things. I wasn't committing crimes, you know. I 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:31.640 was a very good young man. 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:34.560 That is what happened. In so many cases, the cops 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:37.640 have a hunch because they're so smart. At the scene, 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:41.359 they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch, 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:44.839 they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:47.480 marching in the wrong direction, and that happens in so 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:49.120 many of these wrongful convictions. 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:53.840 They opened it uh to sell door, and I walked downstairs, 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:58.200 and I actually walked downstairs to be outside. It felt 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:01.960 very strange, like I said, to be walking without those 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:04.120 shackles on my feet. I thought it was a dream. 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:06.280 But then again, it wasn't a dream. 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:15.919 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today, 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:19.360 I have a guest whose story has to be heard 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:23.200 to be believed. It's a Philadelphia story. It's a death 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:28.880 penalty story. And it's sort of a miracle actually that 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:33.560 you're even here at all under the circumstances, much less 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:36.920 with a smile on your face. So and he does 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:38.920 have a big smile. So I want to welcome to 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:40.800 wrongful conviction. Jimmy Dennis. 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:41.839 Thank you so much. 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:46.160 Jason, Oh, you're welcome. And like I always say, I'm 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:50.280 sorry you're here, but I'm glad you're here. And I 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:53.680 want to get right into it because I think it's 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:58.360 super important to talk about this case, not only because 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:00.960 it was a death penalty case, but also because of 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:04.560 the facts of your case being so bizarre and that 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:07.640 there was never anything to connect you to this crime, 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:09.320 not that I know about it right now. 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:14.440 The case happened October twenty second, nineteen ninety one, in 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:16.320 the Fern Rock station of Philadelphia. 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:19.480 A young lady by the name A Shadell. 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:23.680 Williams was rutally murdered for peer ear rings by three men. 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:25.799 Four hundred and fifty dollars earrings pier. 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:27.600 Four hundred and fifty dollars ear rings. 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:30.800 Right, a high school girl. And when they say four 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:33.480 hundred and fifty dollars earrings, I'm assuming that's retails. Whoever 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:36.880 whoever killed her for these earrings probably got maybe one hundred. 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:38.000 Dollars for it, right at best. 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:40.520 That's what her life was worth, a high school girl. 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:45.279 Right when this happens, it's a high profile case. The 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:49.640 community is outraged by so on and so forth. In Philadelphia, 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:54.200 there's a lot of pressure in high profile cases for 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:56.640 the cops to sib crime. 0:04:56.839 --> 0:04:59.240 So you weren't there when it happened. 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:00.200 No, I wasn't there. 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:01.600 In fact, you weren't even close by. 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:02.760 I wasn't even close by. 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:05.200 Well, let's go back to that, because where were you, 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:08.400 and how did they end up? Like it seemed so 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:11.880 random that you were several miles away, and then yet 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:14.240 they ended up picking you up. And then the whole 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:16.800 thing goes sideways and backwards from there. 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:18.960 So at the time of the crime, I was on 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:24.479 a bus in Philadelphia called the K Bus, traveling to 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:29.600 abbas Ford Projects, where I seen someone familiar, you know 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:31.840 what I mean, just the acquaintance I said hi to 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:36.760 all this was instantiated right, even the time I said 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:39.360 that I got on the bus and got off the stop. 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:43.240 The bus driver testified that that was correct, right, So 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:47.040 all these things were stantiated. So the police came around. 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:49.680 They went to every neighborhood in the city of Philadelphia, 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:51.280 and they started. 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:52.360 Picking up stick up boys. 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:57.480 And when they did that, a group of individuals lied 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:02.240 and said my name for or ungodly reasons of jealousy 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:03.680 or whatever you might. 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:04.279 Want to call it. 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:05.520 And you were twenty one. 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:08.960 I was twenty one. I was barely I was a 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:13.000 young man. I wasn't even a man. I had many 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:16.680 aspirations of being in the music business. I would come 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:19.160 up here to New York to the New Music Seminar 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:23.400 every year. My group was one of the best amateur 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:27.600 groups in Philadelphia, and we were receiving interest from. 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:31.080 You know, music people. What group was that sensation? And 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:33.279 we had won many talent shows. 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:35.880 What kind of style of music was it? R and B? 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:38.799 And you were the singer, I was the lead singer well, 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:41.120 and so yeah, who knows, we might even cross paths 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:46.039 at the New Music know It. But but then things 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:48.240 obviously went took a terrible. 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.760 Terror and then things just started to turn from there. 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:54.279 You even see in the statements that. 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:56.960 They all had talked on the phone or whatever, and 0:06:57.000 --> 0:06:59.680 then they just you know, made up this you know 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:03.320 Storrey that I, you know, had on these clothes and 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:06.640 that I was doing these things, and the police ran 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:06.919 with it. 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:08.680 But none of these people ever testified. 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:11.360 I mean, were you caught up in the gang life 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:11.720 or anything. 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:12.560 I wasn't caught up. 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:15.320 In any gang life or anything like that. I wasn't, 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:17.440 you know, in any type kind of gangs. 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:18.400 It really not. 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:21.520 Really gangs in Philadelphia like that at that time, you 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:22.040 know what I mean. 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:24.600 So this was just people in the. 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:27.960 Neighborhood didn't like me, you know what I mean. I 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:31.960 had no significant criminal history whatsoever. I had a misdemeanor 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:33.880 drug offense. 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:34.400 On my record. 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:36.960 Uh, and that's all I ever had on my record 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:40.920 up until the time that I was arrested. So going 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:44.200 back from the misdemeanor, I had a picture, you know, 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:47.080 mugshot that the police kept in the number one spot 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:50.880 the entire time when they were showing witnesses the photo rays. 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:55.880 So one witness said, I think so. They said, can 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:58.800 you be sure? They said no yet, and still they 0:07:58.920 --> 0:07:59.520 ran with that. 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:02.360 And what was the description of the subject? 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:05.560 Uh, five to ten to six feet tall, to one 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:08.320 hundred and eighty to two hundred pounds, dark skin complexion. 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:11.280 Now when they say dark skin complexion, they talk about 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:14.560 Miles Davis or Wesley Snipes. You sitting here before me, 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:17.840 you know, I'm brown skin. I weigh one hundred and 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:20.440 twenty five pounds at the time, I had a diminutive 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:24.040 frame and I'm five four in height. There's no way 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:26.160 you're going to get five nine to five ten six 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:28.840 foot one eighty to two hundred pounds from a hundred 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:31.280 and twenty five and you're not going to ever mix 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:35.640 me up with Wesley Snipes or Miles Davis. 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:40.160 Yeah, I mean that should have been a moment that 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:43.920 alone for everybody to go, well, Okay, let's just look 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:46.439 and see if he's got an alibi, and if he does, 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:49.160 we maybe wouldn't even need that, maybe would just say, well, okay, 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:52.200 the description doesn't work. The one witness who at least 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:56.560 is even saying anything still isn't sure. But that would 0:08:56.559 --> 0:08:59.880 have been inconvenient, yes, right, because they would have had 0:08:59.880 --> 0:09:01.920 to go back to the drawing board. And we know 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:05.120 how these things work, especially in Philly in the early nineties. 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:08.800 I mean, it was a time where I would say 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:11.400 that from what I know about the history of Philadelphia, 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:13.439 it probably would have been a time when Philadelphia was 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:17.720 probably the wrongful conviction capital of America. They were arresting 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:22.599 and beating up people of color, yes, and everybody. But 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:26.160 it was basically a policy, and it came from the top. 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:29.480 There was that infamous police chief Rizzo, who became the mayor, 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:34.880 and he was a notoriously brutal, lawless type of a guy, 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:36.679 an area. 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:39.560 That I grew up in in North Philadelphia. Abbas for projects, 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:45.240 there are literally five people that have been proven to 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:48.800 be innocent, myself included, that have all come home. And 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:52.200 Anthony Wright, who I believe you may have had on 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:55.520 this show. Is one of the guys that came from 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:59.160 North Philadelphia. Him and I have the same. 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:03.560 Police that worked on his case, did the same thing 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:03.960 to me. 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:07.040 And there's an amazing I'm glad you brought that up 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:10.480 because there's an incredible article that ran in Rolling Stone 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:14.360 magazine about Tony Wright's case, and I'll never forget there 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:16.280 was a pull quote in that article where it said 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:20.760 that in whatever year that was nineteen ninety or something 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:23.800 that he was convicted, it said a black man had 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:27.000 a better chance of getting justice in Philadelphia, Mississippi than 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:28.760 they did in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:31.320 That is so true. 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:33.640 I mean, I'm happy to see that now we have 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:37.280 a whole different situation in Philadelphia with Larry krast. 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:39.000 Get much better with mister Krasner. 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:41.800 Yeah, and you know it had to change. But you 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:44.280 were caught up in exactly the wrong place at exactly 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:47.800 the wrong time. So at what point did they arrest you? 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:49.679 Was it a day or two after the crowd? 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:52.640 So as soon as I heard like this is one thing, 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:55.480 that one other thing that people don't know, I got 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:58.240 arrested like a month later. But as soon as I 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:01.959 heard any rumors in the neighborhood of my name being mentioned. 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:05.600 Actually went down to the police station and asked him 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:07.520 did they want to speak to me? And stayed down 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:10.120 there for over four hours, and they did not want 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:13.320 to speak to me. Everybody has this thing about what 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:14.520 innocent people should do. 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:17.800 You don't run, you go to the police station, so 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:18.600 on and so forth. 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:22.360 So I get arrested November twenty third, nineteen ninety one. 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:25.840 So before I get arrested, I went down there, me 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:28.560 and my father and my brother asked him did they 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:30.240 want to talk to me? I signed in the police 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:32.960 law book. All this was said at trial they didn't 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:35.120 want to talk to me. But two weeks later they 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:36.000 came and arrested me. 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:37.520 In a nightmare began. 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:41.120 I did everything you supposed to do, and I still 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:42.720 got my life stolen away. 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:45.280 And so you go to trial when you had a 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:47.320 quarter point lawyer, I'm assuming no. 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:53.080 Actually, my dad and I you know, paid for my 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:59.080 first attorney. It wasn't quarter point. My dad was a musician, 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:01.040 He wasn't rich anything like that. 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:04.080 We were poor. But my dad put the money together 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:05.160 and he got me. 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:09.840 What we thought was a you know, decent enough lawyer 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:11.959 to represent me, but he did not. 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:12.600 Do his job. 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:14.800 How much time did you get to spend with him 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:15.439 before the trial? 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:16.160 None? 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:18.640 None, none, He never visited. 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:20.360 You came to see me one time to tell me 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:23.160 that they were charging me with more cases, and that's it. 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:25.040 Left. 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:28.360 I would call him all the time, no answer, so 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:29.240 on and so forth. 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:30.120 It was that bad. 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:34.160 Wow, And then you go to trial. Then I go 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:37.360 to trial with an attorney you don't even know, Yeah, 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:39.400 who doesn't really know much about your case. 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:43.360 Right, who's really not investigating things like that? And you know, 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:44.960 so on and so forth. It was. 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:49.520 It was the typical nightmare that you had come to 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:51.800 know with all the great work that you do. 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:58.160 But it was the typical standard. Okay, don't care. 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:00.280 I mean he wasn't really the face I think you 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:02.040 so much as processing you at the prison. 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:03.200 There you go. 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:07.760 And I mean, was he alcoholic or no. 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:11.760 There was an article at the time that set him 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:15.120 and two other attorneys took on the most homicide cases 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:17.000 in the city of Philadelphia. 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:19.280 It kind of came out like in the mid nineties. 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:22.320 But you know, so he was just taking as many 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:23.920 cases as he could get to make as much money 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:25.840 as he could and not really worrying about the outcome. 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:28.080 Yeah, that's how I feel. 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:32.000 So it sounds like me. I mean when you say 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:33.640 they were trying to put other cases on you. 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:38.040 I was charged with over nine other robbery cases. 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:40.199 They tried to make it look like I was Jesse James, 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:41.959 and I was nothing of the sort. 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:43.439 If you go back in. 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:47.560 My community and you do your own type of investigation, 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:50.679 which my lawyers and everybody do, everybody be like, Yo, 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:52.560 he was a good kid, you know what I mean. 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:55.720 You know, nobody's perfect, but he ain't. No, you know, 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:57.719 he ain't no robbery, he ain't no murdering, he ain't 0:13:57.760 --> 0:13:59.760 no stick up with you know what I mean. So 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:05.199 I was charged with nine other cases that were later dropped, 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:05.920 all except for. 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:09.719 One, all except for the one the original one, or 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:11.080 except for another one besides that. 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:13.440 All except for another one besides that. 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:16.440 Yeah. So you go to trial, right, and you charged 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:19.520 with capital murder, which is murder in the act of 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:22.640 committing another felony, which was robbing her of the earrings. Right, Yes, 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:25.760 And so how long did the trial last? 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:30.840 The trial went from September about twenty first twenty fifteen 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:34.800 October sixteenth. I was found guilty October nineteenth, they gave 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:36.600 me the death penalty. 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:39.560 Each part of that trial, it was horrible. 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:43.360 I still relived even to this day everything that I 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:46.520 went through, because you don't think that this is. 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:47.120 Going to happen to you. 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:50.720 You think, even then, you believe that the truth is 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:52.520 going to come out, that you believe in the system, 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:56.440 that everybody can see that I'm not five ten, two 0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:58.400 hundred pounds in dark skinned complexion. 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:03.320 But you had a prosecutor that was something of a 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:05.720 theme on law and order, right. 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:10.920 You had jury members going to sleep, literally going to sleep. 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:15.160 No mistrial. It was just a nightmare from beginning to end. 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:18.600 I mean that's a pretty long trial. And I'm assuming 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:20.680 that your lawyer wasn't doing much. What was he doing 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:21.760 just sitting there listening? 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:27.720 Nah, he was he he was doing I guess you 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:31.440 could say he was doing I don't know what he 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:34.560 was doing, to be perfectly honest with you, Jason, I 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:36.880 don't know what he was doing. All I know is 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:41.040 that it was the entire thing was a nightmare from 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:43.200 beginning and the end. There's a part in the trial 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:45.120 like if you go back and look at the transcripts, 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:49.760 they even took my height right, and they get out 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:51.760 of tape measure and they take my height so they 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:55.600 see that I'm actually you know, five to four and 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:57.640 I'm only five to five with this one and a 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:00.920 half inch ill on right. Yeah, I mean, none of 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:04.160 that made a difference to the jury. The fact that 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:09.400 this crime took place within seconds. And you know, doctor 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:13.320 Elizabeth Loaffers say, can't nobody identify nobody in two minutes, 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:14.920 let alone seconds? 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:15.680 You know what I mean. 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:19.400 This is a violent crime, you know what I mean. 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:22.920 So you know, if somebody runs into the studio right here, 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.760 and you know it robs us right now, nine times 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:27.960 out of ten, we all gonna get it wrong when 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:29.440 it comes to the physical description. 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:31.280 Nobody paid attention to that. 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:35.520 Right in this crime, this took place. There was a chase. 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:39.360 The poor girl was after her her earrings were stolen. 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:42.400 She was shot in the throat. She was with a 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:45.240 friend who was luckily not harmed. But we know also 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:49.200 from decades of research that in cases in which someone 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:52.480 is up close when the violent crime is being committed, 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:56.320 we know that that person is much more likely to 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:00.800 mistakenly identify someone because you're in makes sense if you 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:03.280 think about it, right, Your adrenaline is going crazy. Your 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:06.160 own life is threatened. It's all that fight or flight 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:08.800 and all those reflexes and impulses and all the nerve 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:12.440 endings are going crazy. And there have been experiments where 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:15.440 they they've actually staged the crime, right, and then they 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:18.280 bring in people from the outside, and they found that 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:20.800 people who weren't there have a better chance of being right. 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:24.320 So actually those witnesses are not even as good as guessing. 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:27.440 So in this case, you had all of those factors, right. 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:32.200 Yeah, So you actually had three witnesses you know, that testify, 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:36.680 but you actually had over nine witnesses and the other 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:42.800 six you know, didn't testify because they didn't say what 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:46.600 the police wanted them to say. They actually said the opposite. 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:49.119 What about the other evidence that showed that you were 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:49.800 somewhere else? 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:52.600 That evidence was with hell for over a. 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:54.719 Decade, and which evidence was that? All? 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:55.000 Right? 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:59.000 So there was a welfare receiat from the young lady 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:03.000 that I seen on the bus that stantiated my innocense 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:06.560 as well that the police went to her, threatened her, 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:11.360 and they took the welfare receipt from her. Now welfare 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:14.159 receipts are done in military time. She had picked up 0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:16.720 her welfare receipt and then she had got on the 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:20.520 same k bus that I was on, So the receipt 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:25.160 said thirteen oh three. They told her that it set 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:27.960 three h three pm because she couldn't tell military time. 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:29.200 So when she. 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:32.600 Takes the stand, she says exactly what they wanted her 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:35.200 to say, that she seen me it, you know, later 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:37.480 on that day and not the actual time that she 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:38.200 did see me. 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:41.040 Right, So had they not lied about that, then you 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:43.360 couldn't have been there because they know the crime. 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:46.600 Happened exactly, so that that stayed hidden away. 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:48.879 That was one thing. There were there other things that 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:49.920 were withheld as well. 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:52.920 So the clothes that they said they took from my 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:55.800 father's house that the police officers got on the stand 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:57.240 and testified about. 0:18:57.040 --> 0:18:59.399 And said they were their closed that was used at 0:18:59.400 --> 0:18:59.720 the crime. 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:04.959 Non the witnesses ever seeing these clothes, they weren't cataloged 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:09.719 and they suddenly poof disappeared, right, and all this stuff 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:13.520 could have helped prove my innocence, you know, going back 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:16.880 to other evidence, there still was never two. 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:17.679 Other people locked up. 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:20.040 There's supposed to be three people to the crime, but 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:23.680 only one person was ever arrested, which was me, right. 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:29.879 So there's all these holes, you know, but it's all 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:33.240 come from the same prosecutor and police officers. 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:37.800 And the very real consequence of this, aside from the 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:41.760 obvious terrible injustice that was done to you and your family, 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:46.720 is the fact that there's no justice for Shadell Williams. 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:50.560 Not to mention that the citizens of Philadelphia remained in 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:53.280 danger with these two or three guys how many it 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:56.520 was that actually committed this robbery and murder being out 0:19:56.560 --> 0:19:59.080 on the loose because you were in there instead of them. 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:05.520 That's the har other situation that that family hasn't gotten justice. 0:20:05.560 --> 0:20:06.760 And when you lie. 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:11.239 About something to someone, you dishonored a victim and you 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:13.240 dishonored their family as well. 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:16.679 So let's go back to that day of the verdict. 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:21.120 Can you give us a picture of the courtroom that day. 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:23.440 I mean, you had now been in the system for 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:27.920