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Speaker 1: I had the privilege of interviewing Jimmy Dennis on April

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Speaker 1: first of twenty nineteen, shortly after he was released from

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Speaker 1: death row in Pennsylvania. He served twenty five and a

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Speaker 1: half years and had two execution dates actually scheduled. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about they asked him what his last meal

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Speaker 1: was going to be, where he wanted his remains to

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Speaker 1: be taken. It's unbelievable. Twenty five and a half years

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Speaker 1: he lived in his tiny cell on death row with

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Speaker 1: the lights on. They never turned him off, and yet

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Speaker 1: he came out joyful, with a bounce in his step,

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Speaker 1: ready to get back, you know, as much as he

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Speaker 1: could of what he had lost. And here's the incredible thing.

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Speaker 1: He was a singer when he was wrongfully arrested when

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Speaker 1: he was eighteen years old. He was on the verge

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Speaker 1: of getting a record deal with his group. And the

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Speaker 1: good news is that a few months ago he made

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Speaker 1: his on stage singing debut in New York City at

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Speaker 1: the Church of Rock and Roll event. At Gospel he's

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Speaker 1: saying Hallelujah, and he killed it. I gotta be honest

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Speaker 1: with you. Now, he's in the process of launching a

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Speaker 1: dog grooming business with his wife. The business plan is

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Speaker 1: set and I think they're going to make it a

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Speaker 1: real success. He's also been the subject of the first

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Speaker 1: Now This video documentary of the Rawful Conviction podcast and

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Speaker 1: it is a beautiful, beautiful piece. He's a beautiful, beautiful guy.

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Speaker 1: And Jimmy, if you're listening, I hope you're smiling and

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Speaker 1: sleeping well too, because you deserve nothing but the best

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Speaker 1: of everything, and we're here to share your story. Please

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Speaker 1: sit back and listen to Jimmy Dennis.

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Speaker 2: This Paul is from a correction facility and is subject

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Speaker 2: to monitoring and recording.

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Speaker 3: And a hundred years that's man.

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Speaker 4: I'm a kid.

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Speaker 3: I didn't do anything, you know, and uh, you know

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Speaker 3: that was ah, that was real painful, man, you know,

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Speaker 3: because my life was discarded as if you know, like

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Speaker 3: I was a piece of trash or something, you know,

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Speaker 3: one hundred years and I had dreams and I wanted

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Speaker 3: to do things. I wasn't committing crimes, you know. I

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Speaker 3: was a very good young man.

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Speaker 5: That is what happened. In so many cases, the cops

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Speaker 5: have a hunch because they're so smart. At the scene,

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Speaker 5: they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch,

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Speaker 5: they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off

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Speaker 5: marching in the wrong direction, and that happens in so

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Speaker 5: many of these wrongful convictions.

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Speaker 6: They opened it uh to sell door, and I walked downstairs,

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Speaker 6: and I actually walked downstairs to be outside. It felt

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Speaker 6: very strange, like I said, to be walking without those

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Speaker 6: shackles on my feet. I thought it was a dream.

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Speaker 6: But then again, it wasn't a dream.

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Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today,

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Speaker 1: I have a guest whose story has to be heard

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Speaker 1: to be believed. It's a Philadelphia story. It's a death

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Speaker 1: penalty story. And it's sort of a miracle actually that

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Speaker 1: you're even here at all under the circumstances, much less

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Speaker 1: with a smile on your face. So and he does

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Speaker 1: have a big smile. So I want to welcome to

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Speaker 1: wrongful conviction. Jimmy Dennis.

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Speaker 4: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: Jason, Oh, you're welcome. And like I always say, I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry you're here, but I'm glad you're here. And I

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Speaker 1: want to get right into it because I think it's

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Speaker 1: super important to talk about this case, not only because

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Speaker 1: it was a death penalty case, but also because of

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Speaker 1: the facts of your case being so bizarre and that

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Speaker 1: there was never anything to connect you to this crime,

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Speaker 1: not that I know about it right now.

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Speaker 7: The case happened October twenty second, nineteen ninety one, in

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Speaker 7: the Fern Rock station of Philadelphia.

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Speaker 4: A young lady by the name A Shadell.

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Speaker 7: Williams was rutally murdered for peer ear rings by three men.

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Speaker 1: Four hundred and fifty dollars earrings pier.

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Speaker 4: Four hundred and fifty dollars ear rings.

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Speaker 1: Right, a high school girl. And when they say four

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty dollars earrings, I'm assuming that's retails. Whoever

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Speaker 1: whoever killed her for these earrings probably got maybe one hundred.

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Speaker 4: Dollars for it, right at best.

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Speaker 1: That's what her life was worth, a high school girl.

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Speaker 7: Right when this happens, it's a high profile case. The

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Speaker 7: community is outraged by so on and so forth. In Philadelphia,

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Speaker 7: there's a lot of pressure in high profile cases for

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Speaker 7: the cops to sib crime.

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Speaker 1: So you weren't there when it happened.

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Speaker 4: No, I wasn't there.

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Speaker 1: In fact, you weren't even close by.

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Speaker 4: I wasn't even close by.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's go back to that, because where were you,

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Speaker 1: and how did they end up? Like it seemed so

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Speaker 1: random that you were several miles away, and then yet

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Speaker 1: they ended up picking you up. And then the whole

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Speaker 1: thing goes sideways and backwards from there.

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Speaker 7: So at the time of the crime, I was on

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Speaker 7: a bus in Philadelphia called the K Bus, traveling to

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Speaker 7: abbas Ford Projects, where I seen someone familiar, you know

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Speaker 7: what I mean, just the acquaintance I said hi to

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Speaker 7: all this was instantiated right, even the time I said

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Speaker 7: that I got on the bus and got off the stop.

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Speaker 7: The bus driver testified that that was correct, right, So

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Speaker 7: all these things were stantiated. So the police came around.

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Speaker 7: They went to every neighborhood in the city of Philadelphia,

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Speaker 7: and they started.

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Speaker 4: Picking up stick up boys.

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Speaker 7: And when they did that, a group of individuals lied

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Speaker 7: and said my name for or ungodly reasons of jealousy

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Speaker 7: or whatever you might.

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Speaker 4: Want to call it.

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Speaker 1: And you were twenty one.

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Speaker 7: I was twenty one. I was barely I was a

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Speaker 7: young man. I wasn't even a man. I had many

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Speaker 7: aspirations of being in the music business. I would come

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Speaker 7: up here to New York to the New Music Seminar

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Speaker 7: every year. My group was one of the best amateur

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Speaker 7: groups in Philadelphia, and we were receiving interest from.

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Speaker 4: You know, music people. What group was that sensation? And

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Speaker 4: we had won many talent shows.

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Speaker 1: What kind of style of music was it? R and B?

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Speaker 1: And you were the singer, I was the lead singer well,

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Speaker 1: and so yeah, who knows, we might even cross paths

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Speaker 1: at the New Music know It. But but then things

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Speaker 1: obviously went took a terrible.

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Speaker 7: Terror and then things just started to turn from there.

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Speaker 4: You even see in the statements that.

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Speaker 7: They all had talked on the phone or whatever, and

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Speaker 7: then they just you know, made up this you know

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Speaker 7: Storrey that I, you know, had on these clothes and

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Speaker 7: that I was doing these things, and the police ran

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Speaker 7: with it.

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Speaker 4: But none of these people ever testified.

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Speaker 1: I mean, were you caught up in the gang life

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Speaker 1: or anything.

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Speaker 4: I wasn't caught up.

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Speaker 7: In any gang life or anything like that. I wasn't,

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Speaker 7: you know, in any type kind of gangs.

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Speaker 4: It really not.

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Speaker 7: Really gangs in Philadelphia like that at that time, you

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Speaker 7: know what I mean.

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Speaker 4: So this was just people in the.

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Speaker 7: Neighborhood didn't like me, you know what I mean. I

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Speaker 7: had no significant criminal history whatsoever. I had a misdemeanor

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Speaker 7: drug offense.

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Speaker 4: On my record.

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Speaker 7: Uh, and that's all I ever had on my record

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Speaker 7: up until the time that I was arrested. So going

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Speaker 7: back from the misdemeanor, I had a picture, you know,

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Speaker 7: mugshot that the police kept in the number one spot

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Speaker 7: the entire time when they were showing witnesses the photo rays.

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Speaker 7: So one witness said, I think so. They said, can

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Speaker 7: you be sure? They said no yet, and still they

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Speaker 7: ran with that.

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Speaker 1: And what was the description of the subject?

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Speaker 7: Uh, five to ten to six feet tall, to one

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Speaker 7: hundred and eighty to two hundred pounds, dark skin complexion.

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Speaker 7: Now when they say dark skin complexion, they talk about

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Speaker 7: Miles Davis or Wesley Snipes. You sitting here before me,

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Speaker 7: you know, I'm brown skin. I weigh one hundred and

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Speaker 7: twenty five pounds at the time, I had a diminutive

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Speaker 7: frame and I'm five four in height. There's no way

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Speaker 7: you're going to get five nine to five ten six

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Speaker 7: foot one eighty to two hundred pounds from a hundred

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Speaker 7: and twenty five and you're not going to ever mix

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Speaker 7: me up with Wesley Snipes or Miles Davis.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that should have been a moment that

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Speaker 1: alone for everybody to go, well, Okay, let's just look

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Speaker 1: and see if he's got an alibi, and if he does,

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Speaker 1: we maybe wouldn't even need that, maybe would just say, well, okay,

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Speaker 1: the description doesn't work. The one witness who at least

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Speaker 1: is even saying anything still isn't sure. But that would

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Speaker 1: have been inconvenient, yes, right, because they would have had

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Speaker 1: to go back to the drawing board. And we know

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Speaker 1: how these things work, especially in Philly in the early nineties.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it was a time where I would say

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Speaker 1: that from what I know about the history of Philadelphia,

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Speaker 1: it probably would have been a time when Philadelphia was

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Speaker 1: probably the wrongful conviction capital of America. They were arresting

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Speaker 1: and beating up people of color, yes, and everybody. But

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Speaker 1: it was basically a policy, and it came from the top.

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Speaker 1: There was that infamous police chief Rizzo, who became the mayor,

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Speaker 1: and he was a notoriously brutal, lawless type of a guy,

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Speaker 1: an area.

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Speaker 7: That I grew up in in North Philadelphia. Abbas for projects,

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Speaker 7: there are literally five people that have been proven to

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Speaker 7: be innocent, myself included, that have all come home. And

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Speaker 7: Anthony Wright, who I believe you may have had on

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Speaker 7: this show. Is one of the guys that came from

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Speaker 7: North Philadelphia. Him and I have the same.

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Speaker 4: Police that worked on his case, did the same thing

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Speaker 4: to me.

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Speaker 1: And there's an amazing I'm glad you brought that up

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Speaker 1: because there's an incredible article that ran in Rolling Stone

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Speaker 1: magazine about Tony Wright's case, and I'll never forget there

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Speaker 1: was a pull quote in that article where it said

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Speaker 1: that in whatever year that was nineteen ninety or something

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Speaker 1: that he was convicted, it said a black man had

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Speaker 1: a better chance of getting justice in Philadelphia, Mississippi than

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Speaker 1: they did in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 4: That is so true.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm happy to see that now we have

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Speaker 1: a whole different situation in Philadelphia with Larry krast.

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Speaker 4: Get much better with mister Krasner.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know it had to change. But you

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Speaker 1: were caught up in exactly the wrong place at exactly

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Speaker 1: the wrong time. So at what point did they arrest you?

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Speaker 1: Was it a day or two after the crowd?

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Speaker 7: So as soon as I heard like this is one thing,

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Speaker 7: that one other thing that people don't know, I got

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Speaker 7: arrested like a month later. But as soon as I

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Speaker 7: heard any rumors in the neighborhood of my name being mentioned.

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Speaker 7: Actually went down to the police station and asked him

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Speaker 7: did they want to speak to me? And stayed down

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Speaker 7: there for over four hours, and they did not want

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Speaker 7: to speak to me. Everybody has this thing about what

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Speaker 7: innocent people should do.

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Speaker 4: You don't run, you go to the police station, so

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Speaker 4: on and so forth.

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Speaker 7: So I get arrested November twenty third, nineteen ninety one.

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Speaker 7: So before I get arrested, I went down there, me

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Speaker 7: and my father and my brother asked him did they

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Speaker 7: want to talk to me? I signed in the police

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Speaker 7: law book. All this was said at trial they didn't

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Speaker 7: want to talk to me. But two weeks later they

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Speaker 7: came and arrested me.

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Speaker 4: In a nightmare began.

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Speaker 7: I did everything you supposed to do, and I still

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Speaker 7: got my life stolen away.

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Speaker 1: And so you go to trial when you had a

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Speaker 1: quarter point lawyer, I'm assuming no.

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Speaker 7: Actually, my dad and I you know, paid for my

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Speaker 7: first attorney. It wasn't quarter point. My dad was a musician,

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Speaker 7: He wasn't rich anything like that.

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Speaker 4: We were poor. But my dad put the money together

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Speaker 4: and he got me.

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Speaker 7: What we thought was a you know, decent enough lawyer

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Speaker 7: to represent me, but he did not.

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Speaker 4: Do his job.

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Speaker 1: How much time did you get to spend with him

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Speaker 1: before the trial?

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Speaker 4: None?

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Speaker 1: None, none, He never visited.

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Speaker 7: You came to see me one time to tell me

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Speaker 7: that they were charging me with more cases, and that's it.

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Speaker 4: Left.

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Speaker 7: I would call him all the time, no answer, so

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Speaker 7: on and so forth.

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Speaker 4: It was that bad.

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Speaker 1: Wow, And then you go to trial. Then I go

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Speaker 1: to trial with an attorney you don't even know, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: who doesn't really know much about your case.

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Speaker 4: Right, who's really not investigating things like that? And you know,

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Speaker 4: so on and so forth. It was.

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Speaker 7: It was the typical nightmare that you had come to

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Speaker 7: know with all the great work that you do.

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Speaker 4: But it was the typical standard. Okay, don't care.

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Speaker 1: I mean he wasn't really the face I think you

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Speaker 1: so much as processing you at the prison.

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Speaker 4: There you go.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, was he alcoholic or no.

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Speaker 7: There was an article at the time that set him

259
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Speaker 7: and two other attorneys took on the most homicide cases

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Speaker 7: in the city of Philadelphia.

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Speaker 4: It kind of came out like in the mid nineties.

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Speaker 1: But you know, so he was just taking as many

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Speaker 1: cases as he could get to make as much money

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Speaker 1: as he could and not really worrying about the outcome.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's how I feel.

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Speaker 1: So it sounds like me. I mean when you say

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Speaker 1: they were trying to put other cases on you.

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Speaker 4: I was charged with over nine other robbery cases.

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Speaker 7: They tried to make it look like I was Jesse James,

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Speaker 7: and I was nothing of the sort.

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Speaker 4: If you go back in.

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Speaker 7: My community and you do your own type of investigation,

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Speaker 7: which my lawyers and everybody do, everybody be like, Yo,

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Speaker 7: he was a good kid, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 7: You know, nobody's perfect, but he ain't. No, you know,

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Speaker 7: he ain't no robbery, he ain't no murdering, he ain't

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Speaker 7: no stick up with you know what I mean. So

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Speaker 7: I was charged with nine other cases that were later dropped,

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Speaker 7: all except for.

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Speaker 1: One, all except for the one the original one, or

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Speaker 1: except for another one besides that.

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Speaker 4: All except for another one besides that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So you go to trial, right, and you charged

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Speaker 1: with capital murder, which is murder in the act of

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Speaker 1: committing another felony, which was robbing her of the earrings. Right, Yes,

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Speaker 1: And so how long did the trial last?

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Speaker 7: The trial went from September about twenty first twenty fifteen

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Speaker 7: October sixteenth. I was found guilty October nineteenth, they gave

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Speaker 7: me the death penalty.

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Speaker 4: Each part of that trial, it was horrible.

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Speaker 7: I still relived even to this day everything that I

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Speaker 7: went through, because you don't think that this is.

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Speaker 4: Going to happen to you.

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Speaker 7: You think, even then, you believe that the truth is

295
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Speaker 7: going to come out, that you believe in the system,

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Speaker 7: that everybody can see that I'm not five ten, two

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Speaker 7: hundred pounds in dark skinned complexion.

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Speaker 4: But you had a prosecutor that was something of a

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Speaker 4: theme on law and order, right.

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Speaker 7: You had jury members going to sleep, literally going to sleep.

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Speaker 4: No mistrial. It was just a nightmare from beginning to end.

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Speaker 1: I mean that's a pretty long trial. And I'm assuming

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Speaker 1: that your lawyer wasn't doing much. What was he doing

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Speaker 1: just sitting there listening?

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Speaker 7: Nah, he was he he was doing I guess you

306
00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:31,440
Speaker 7: could say he was doing I don't know what he

307
00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,560
Speaker 7: was doing, to be perfectly honest with you, Jason, I

308
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:36,880
Speaker 7: don't know what he was doing. All I know is

309
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Speaker 7: that it was the entire thing was a nightmare from

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Speaker 7: beginning and the end. There's a part in the trial

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Speaker 7: like if you go back and look at the transcripts,

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00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:49,760
Speaker 7: they even took my height right, and they get out

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Speaker 7: of tape measure and they take my height so they

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Speaker 7: see that I'm actually you know, five to four and

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Speaker 7: I'm only five to five with this one and a

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Speaker 7: half inch ill on right. Yeah, I mean, none of

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Speaker 7: that made a difference to the jury. The fact that

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00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:09,400
Speaker 7: this crime took place within seconds. And you know, doctor

319
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:13,320
Speaker 7: Elizabeth Loaffers say, can't nobody identify nobody in two minutes,

320
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Speaker 7: let alone seconds?

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Speaker 4: You know what I mean.

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Speaker 7: This is a violent crime, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 7: So you know, if somebody runs into the studio right here,

324
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Speaker 7: and you know it robs us right now, nine times

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Speaker 7: out of ten, we all gonna get it wrong when

326
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Speaker 7: it comes to the physical description.

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Speaker 4: Nobody paid attention to that.

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Speaker 1: Right in this crime, this took place. There was a chase.

329
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Speaker 1: The poor girl was after her her earrings were stolen.

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Speaker 1: She was shot in the throat. She was with a

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Speaker 1: friend who was luckily not harmed. But we know also

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Speaker 1: from decades of research that in cases in which someone

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Speaker 1: is up close when the violent crime is being committed,

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Speaker 1: we know that that person is much more likely to

335
00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,800
Speaker 1: mistakenly identify someone because you're in makes sense if you

336
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,280
Speaker 1: think about it, right, Your adrenaline is going crazy. Your

337
00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,160
Speaker 1: own life is threatened. It's all that fight or flight

338
00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,800
Speaker 1: and all those reflexes and impulses and all the nerve

339
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Speaker 1: endings are going crazy. And there have been experiments where

340
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,440
Speaker 1: they they've actually staged the crime, right, and then they

341
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,280
Speaker 1: bring in people from the outside, and they found that

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Speaker 1: people who weren't there have a better chance of being right.

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Speaker 1: So actually those witnesses are not even as good as guessing.

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Speaker 1: So in this case, you had all of those factors, right.

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00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:32,200
Speaker 7: Yeah, So you actually had three witnesses you know, that testify,

346
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:36,680
Speaker 7: but you actually had over nine witnesses and the other

347
00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:42,800
Speaker 7: six you know, didn't testify because they didn't say what

348
00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,600
Speaker 7: the police wanted them to say. They actually said the opposite.

349
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Speaker 1: What about the other evidence that showed that you were

350
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Speaker 1: somewhere else?

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Speaker 4: That evidence was with hell for over a.

352
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Speaker 1: Decade, and which evidence was that? All?

353
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Speaker 6: Right?

354
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Speaker 7: So there was a welfare receiat from the young lady

355
00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,000
Speaker 7: that I seen on the bus that stantiated my innocense

356
00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,560
Speaker 7: as well that the police went to her, threatened her,

357
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:11,360
Speaker 7: and they took the welfare receipt from her. Now welfare

358
00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,159
Speaker 7: receipts are done in military time. She had picked up

359
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:16,720
Speaker 7: her welfare receipt and then she had got on the

360
00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:20,520
Speaker 7: same k bus that I was on, So the receipt

361
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:25,160
Speaker 7: said thirteen oh three. They told her that it set

362
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Speaker 7: three h three pm because she couldn't tell military time.

363
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:29,200
Speaker 4: So when she.

364
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Speaker 7: Takes the stand, she says exactly what they wanted her

365
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,200
Speaker 7: to say, that she seen me it, you know, later

366
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Speaker 7: on that day and not the actual time that she

367
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:38,200
Speaker 7: did see me.

368
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,040
Speaker 1: Right, So had they not lied about that, then you

369
00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,360
Speaker 1: couldn't have been there because they know the crime.

370
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,600
Speaker 7: Happened exactly, so that that stayed hidden away.

371
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Speaker 1: That was one thing. There were there other things that

372
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:49,920
Speaker 1: were withheld as well.

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Speaker 7: So the clothes that they said they took from my

374
00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,800
Speaker 7: father's house that the police officers got on the stand

375
00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:57,240
Speaker 7: and testified about.

376
00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,399
Speaker 4: And said they were their closed that was used at

377
00:18:59,400 --> 00:18:59,720
Speaker 4: the crime.

378
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:04,959
Speaker 7: Non the witnesses ever seeing these clothes, they weren't cataloged

379
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:09,719
Speaker 7: and they suddenly poof disappeared, right, and all this stuff

380
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,520
Speaker 7: could have helped prove my innocence, you know, going back

381
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,880
Speaker 7: to other evidence, there still was never two.

382
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:17,679
Speaker 4: Other people locked up.

383
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,040
Speaker 7: There's supposed to be three people to the crime, but

384
00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,680
Speaker 7: only one person was ever arrested, which was me, right.

385
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:29,879
Speaker 4: So there's all these holes, you know, but it's all

386
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,240
Speaker 4: come from the same prosecutor and police officers.

387
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Speaker 1: And the very real consequence of this, aside from the

388
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,760
Speaker 1: obvious terrible injustice that was done to you and your family,

389
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,720
Speaker 1: is the fact that there's no justice for Shadell Williams.

390
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,560
Speaker 1: Not to mention that the citizens of Philadelphia remained in

391
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,280
Speaker 1: danger with these two or three guys how many it

392
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,520
Speaker 1: was that actually committed this robbery and murder being out

393
00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,080
Speaker 1: on the loose because you were in there instead of them.

394
00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:05,520
Speaker 7: That's the har other situation that that family hasn't gotten justice.

395
00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:06,760
Speaker 4: And when you lie.

396
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:11,239
Speaker 7: About something to someone, you dishonored a victim and you

397
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,240
Speaker 7: dishonored their family as well.

398
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,679
Speaker 1: So let's go back to that day of the verdict.

399
00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:21,120
Speaker 1: Can you give us a picture of the courtroom that day.

400
00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,440
Speaker 1: I mean, you had now been in the system for

401
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,920
Speaker 1: almost a year, but you still said you had hope

402
00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,000
Speaker 1: and you still believe that no one could possibly convict

403
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,359
Speaker 1: you because you knew that you weren't there. You knew

404
00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,880
Speaker 1: that none of the evidence match, You knew you had alibis,

405
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,200
Speaker 1: but you also knew that you know this trial had

406
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,000
Speaker 1: been sort of a you know, for lack of a

407
00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:43,640
Speaker 1: better word, I'll say with a clusterfuck.

408
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:44,680
Speaker 6: Yes.

409
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,679
Speaker 1: But even with all of that, did you still have

410
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,000
Speaker 1: hope that the jury was going to do the right thing.

411
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,000
Speaker 7: I still had hope that the jury was going to

412
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:58,359
Speaker 7: do the right thing because I always had faith, period,

413
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,159
Speaker 7: ever since I was a kid. I always had that,

414
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 7: you know, faith in God that you know, I could

415
00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 7: get through anything. So I'm sitting there and I'm praying

416
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,280
Speaker 7: that the right thing is going to happen, that people

417
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,040
Speaker 7: sitting on this jury would be able to see through

418
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,960
Speaker 7: all the you know, the lies and things like that,

419
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,280
Speaker 7: or that nature that went on in that courtroom. You know,

420
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 7: when you look at the physical description, when you're seeing that,

421
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,160
Speaker 7: stuff just don't make sense, you know what I mean.

422
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:28,200
Speaker 4: And I had hope.

423
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:32,720
Speaker 7: So when they stood me up and then they read

424
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 7: the verdict, it was like like somebody just knocked the

425
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 7: wind out of me. It was like Tyson hitting somebody,

426
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 7: you know. I immediately started crying. I remember my mom crying.

427
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 7: I remember my sister rocking back and forth. I remember

428
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:54,200
Speaker 7: friends that I grew up with, men crying. Everybody broke

429
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,879
Speaker 7: down and just started crying because nobody could believe that

430
00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,679
Speaker 7: this was happening, because a lot of lives would destroyed

431
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,120
Speaker 7: on that day, A lot of dreams were destroyed.

432
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,199
Speaker 4: It was a horrible scene. You know when you hear

433
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 4: these cries and.

434
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,400
Speaker 7: These wells, and you you like in this moment that's

435
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 7: so sad and like out of body, like you don't

436
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 7: want to be in here, and you know when I'm

437
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 7: shaking and I can't believe it.

438
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 1: And then you said a few days later, you were

439
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:26,120
Speaker 1: sentenced to death right, which is the only thing worse

440
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,000
Speaker 1: that could happen to everything that's already happened. Right, And

441
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,120
Speaker 1: then you get taken I.

442
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 4: Get taken to the greatest for a prison.

443
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:35,879
Speaker 7: From there you go to Camp Hill, and then you

444
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 7: get your destination of what prison that you go to.

445
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 7: So I wound up at huntingon death Row. After these

446
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,960
Speaker 7: other two stops of death row. You know what I mean,

447
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 7: you get your first taste of death row.

448
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 1: Can you explain what that's like for the audience?

449
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:58,120
Speaker 7: That process going on death row is your shackle Your

450
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 7: feet and your hands are shackled. They got like a

451
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,399
Speaker 7: belt in a black box on you. You literally can't

452
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 7: move and they basically strip you neckd which is a

453
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 7: very dehumanizing process. When you come, they got the cameras

454
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 7: on you and all that stuff, and then they throw

455
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 7: you in the shell, you know, and then the nightmare

456
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 7: gets even worse if you can believe it. You know,

457
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 7: prison is such a dehumanizing place. Prison is meant to

458
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 7: destroy families and relationships of everybody. And being on death row,

459
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 7: you're considered the worst of the worst, less than human,

460
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 7: and you get it from all sides, you know what

461
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 7: I mean. Even though you got people in general population

462
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,159
Speaker 7: that may have worse crimes, it's a perception about people

463
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 7: on death row like they're the worst of the worst,

464
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 7: you know, so you catch it, catch it from all sides.

465
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 7: What you gotta understand, you can't be in prison for

466
00:23:59,320 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 7: nothing like that.

467
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 4: So when I.

468
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:06,360
Speaker 7: Say that I went through hell, it's actually an understatement

469
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 7: to describe what I went through. I got it from

470
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 7: every side, guards, prisoners. I was basically in a fight

471
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:19,159
Speaker 7: for my life just to be whole, period.

472
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 1: And that is because the case was such a high

473
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 1: profile case.

474
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 4: It was a high profile case.

475
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 7: But back then you couldn't be in prison for nothing

476
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 7: like this, anything that had to do with a woman

477
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 7: or a child.

478
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,199
Speaker 4: You can't be in prison. This is real prison.

479
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 7: I was in, you know, real situations where I was jumped.

480
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 4: I was you know, had to fight, you know what

481
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 4: I mean. I had to defend myself. You know what

482
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 4: I mean. I was jumped, I.

483
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 7: Was set up by guards, I was rolled on by prisoners,

484
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 7: on and so forth. It was a living nightmare, something

485
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,360
Speaker 7: that you never recover from, something.

486
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 4: That you never get over.

487
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 7: I got teeth in my mouth right here that are

488
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 7: broke and fixed from stuff I went through in prison.

489
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 7: You know, the battle scars are still on me and

490
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 7: in my soul. My situation is just like what we

491
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 7: all know that Kylief Brouder went through.

492
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 4: I went through a lot of that.

493
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: And you were on death row for a quarter of

494
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 1: a century.

495
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, I spent twenty five point five years in prison.

496
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, how did you maintain sanity? How'd you maintain hope?

497
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, if someone want to meet you now,

498
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 1: they would have no idea that you've been through this.

499
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, there's that saying that everyone you

500
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,439
Speaker 1: meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about. Just

501
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,479
Speaker 1: be kind, but this is the extreme version of that.

502
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 1: I mean, everyone's going through their stuff. You don't know

503
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 1: what anyone's going through. It might be all heartbreak, might

504
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:01,920
Speaker 1: have just lost their job. Who knows what. You all

505
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,360
Speaker 1: have our stuff, But this is a different level. I mean,

506
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: this is an extraordinary ordeal for anybody to go through

507
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: and survive. And I'm sure there were a bunch of

508
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 1: people that you met, a bunch of men you met

509
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: on death row who didn't survive. I mean that that is.

510
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 7: Kind of trippy because when I was in there, I've

511
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 7: seen people kill theyself. You see the body bags come in,

512
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 7: and you see the ambulance come in.

513
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 4: You see people die from.

514
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 7: Natural causes or what have your dehabilitating diseases.

515
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: But how did you, like, what was it that allowed

516
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 1: you to, you know, persevere and to not not take

517
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: your own life and not go down this rabbit hole

518
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 1: that so many of the guys went there.

519
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 7: So when you in prison, for me to sit here

520
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 7: and tell you that I never thought about suicide.

521
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:54,120
Speaker 4: That's a lie.

522
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 7: Many times, even when I was in the county because

523
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 7: like I told you, I was suffering so greatly.

524
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 4: And nobody was hearing my crowd.

525
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 7: Like one time I was literally gonna take my life

526
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 7: because I just couldn't take it, you know what I mean,

527
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 7: I'm innocent, and I'm not getting proper representation that. You know,

528
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 7: everything is going on. You know, the cops done, you know,

529
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 7: frame me, whatever the case may be. So for me,

530
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 7: I once read this book by Victor E. Frankel called

531
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 7: A Man Search for Mean And in this book he

532
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 7: had this quote by Nietzsche. It said, he who, he

533
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 7: who has a why, I can bear with almost anyhow.

534
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 7: And my why has always been my daughters and my mom,

535
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 7: you know what I mean. Like I literally connected with

536
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 7: it so much because here it was they had no hope,

537
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 7: and he created hope for himself, and he didn't give up.

538
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 7: You know the stories he would tell the other people

539
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 7: in the concentration camps about their family so.

540
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 4: That they could live and survive and have hope with

541
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 4: some you know.

542
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 7: And for me, I would do the same thing. I

543
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 7: would visualize myself home with my daughters someday.

544
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: Let's talk about your daughters. What are their names?

545
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 7: My oldest daughter's name for Team, and my youngest daughter's

546
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 7: name Kiara.

547
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: And when you went to prison, one of them wasn't

548
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: even born yet.

549
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 4: Kiara wasn't born.

550
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 7: She was born one week after I was stolen away.

551
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you never got to see her until you

552
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: got out of prison.

553
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 7: My dad would bring her to see me a lot

554
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 7: that the family would bring them to see me, but

555
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 7: I never literally spent a day with them with her

556
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 7: until I got out. So everything I went through was

557
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 7: for them and my father, you know. And then I

558
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 7: wanted to restore my family name.

559
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 4: Back, you know. And for me faith, faith in God

560
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,479
Speaker 4: was the key in music.

561
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 7: And so every day I would wake up, I would

562
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 7: hear these songs in my mind. Literally because it didn't

563
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 7: have a good radio station up there, couldn't listen to the.

564
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 4: Music I wanted to listen to.

565
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 7: But every day I would hear the Wantings, Trusting God,

566
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 7: John Coltrane, Dear Lord. And then I would hear Bruce

567
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 7: Springsteen in the East Street Band, Bruce Springsteen, as you know,

568
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 7: he has all these wonderful ad libs, all right, come on,

569
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 7: you know, and I would play Hungry Hard or Born

570
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 7: and run in my head, you know what I mean.

571
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 7: Then it would go to Stevie Wonder if It's Magic

572
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 7: and Fleetwood Mac Don't Stop, And every day those songs

573
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 7: would play.

574
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 4: In secession in my head.

575
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 7: And then I would get up, I would work on

576
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 7: the Justice for Jimmy campaign. I would work on legal work.

577
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 7: I would call my lawyers, I would discuss law within them,

578
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 7: legal issues, how to you know, proceed and what we

579
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 7: should do and things like that. And I just I

580
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 7: think everybody has it in them, you know, to make

581
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 7: it out of any situation if they believe. And I

582
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 7: just knew and believe that my dead truth was going

583
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 7: to come. On every single letter, if you would have

584
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 7: received a letter from me in prison, and you would

585
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 7: have opened it up on the top head of the

586
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 7: paper said praying for the truth. And that was my model,

587
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 7: praying for the truth. And I always believe that my

588
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 7: dead truth was gonna come.

589
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: I see you have a bracelet on it says in

590
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: big letters, never ever give up, Never ever.

591
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 4: Give up, and this one say not throwing away my shot.

592
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 7: My lawyers from Arnold and Porter, who are liked my family,

593
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 7: gave me these when when I came home.

594
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: Now we understand how you found this extra gear, this

595
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: extra this extraordinary otherworldly grace or whatever it is that

596
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: allowed you to maintain yourself and maintain your sanity in

597
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: an insane situation. How did you end up getting out.

598
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: How'd that work?

599
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 7: You know, for so long I labored just trying to

600
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 7: yell out that I was innocent, over and over again,

601
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 7: and the system felled me horridly over and over again

602
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 7: until I got the Federal Court. On August twenty first,

603
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 7: twenty thirteen, the Honorable Judge Nita Brody gave this forty

604
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 7: six page legal opinion that breaks down the truth.

605
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 4: About what happens to me.

606
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 7: And the part that met everything to me was the

607
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 7: first paragraph.

608
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 4: If you read that opinion, it says.

609
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 7: James Dennis was wrongfully convicted of this crime.

610
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: And she called it a quote grave miscarriage of justice.

611
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: And she's she wrote that police and prosecutors ignored, lost,

612
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: or covered up evidence that was favorable to.

613
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 7: You, and then came three years later, because nothing happens

614
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 7: that quick. The Third Circuit, the entire panel ruled in

615
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 7: a majority decision vote. You know that it was a

616
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 7: great mischaracter justice that started the wills rolling to me

617
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 7: getting home. So you know, the DA offered a deal

618
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 7: to get me out, and it was something that I

619
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,479
Speaker 7: didn't want to do and something that bothers me to

620
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 7: this day.

621
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 4: But sometimes you got to make decisions.

622
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 7: That's best for your family and not so much you

623
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 7: or just to get you out, you know what I mean,

624
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 7: because you might be in there another five years and

625
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 7: you don't know what's going to happen, because I was

626
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 7: literally at the end of my role. So if they

627
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 7: appeal this decision, you go to the US Supreme.

628
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: Court, and most people ask me that aren't familiar with

629
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 1: this work, how could it be that this real judged

630
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 1: need to Brody called this a grave mischaracter justice said

631
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 1: you were innocent. Then the Third Circuit Court ruled, I

632
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 1: think was nine to four strong majority.

633
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 4: Strong majority, and it's a very scathing legal opinion.

634
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: Quote evidence suppressed by the prosecution, a receipt corroborating Dennis's alibi,

635
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 1: an inconsistent statement by the Commonwealth's key eyewitness, and documents

636
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 1: indicating that another individual committed the murder effectively gutted the

637
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: Commonwealth's case against Dennis. And she finishes by saying, I'm

638
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: getting it chilled. The withholding of these pieces of evidence

639
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: denied Dennis a fair trial and state court. So they

640
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: ruled that you were innocent. And then people say, well,

641
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: doesn't that mean in America you go home and you're innocent.

642
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: But That's not the way it works sometimes, is it.

643
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 4: No, that's not the way it worked.

644
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 7: They were going to appeal to the US Supreme Court

645
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 7: because no one's really trying to say we made a mistake,

646
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 7: we did anything wrong. So that would have took more

647
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 7: years out of my life. If you look and just

648
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 7: ask comparison. If you look at the Anthony Right case,

649
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 7: it took him three years to go to trial after

650
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 7: the DNA evidence proved diminising. Then he still had to

651
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 7: go to trial. Why do you have to go to

652
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 7: trial and the DNA evidence? So this is Philadelphia, This

653
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 7: is not where people.

654
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 1: Are going to do the right thing, Johnson.

655
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 7: There you go, and I can name other cases William

656
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 7: niaz On and so forth, and the list goes on

657
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 7: where they don't want.

658
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 4: To do the right thing.

659
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 7: So I would have spent another three to five years

660
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,800
Speaker 7: or more in prison, and we wouldn't even be sitting

661
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 7: here talking.

662
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: And you could have died in there too, I mean

663
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 1: just from deprivation. You could die in there. But and

664
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: then I want to go back to the you know

665
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: said it was a scathing opinion.

666
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 4: Yes, how did it.

667
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: Feel to hear those words?

668
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 7: So I'm sitting there in prison. So I just want

669
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 7: to take you back to when the first one happened.

670
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 7: Every day I used to walk back and forth and

671
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:53,399
Speaker 7: I'm looking for.

672
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 4: A sign.

673
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 7: For unit manage your account. So that runs the block

674
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 7: to come and say you got to call your lawyers

675
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 7: because your lawyer's called up here good news or whatever.

676
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 7: You don't know, or it might be a family emergency.

677
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 7: This particular day, it didn't even click in. I'm thinking

678
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,879
Speaker 7: something bad had happened with my mom because I had

679
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 7: already lost my dad very tragically. You know, he died

680
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 7: from all timer's and didn't even remember who I was.

681
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 7: But just to let you know, when my dad found

682
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 7: out that I was actually going to try out back

683
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 7: in nineteen ninety two, he had a stroke sitting at

684
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 7: the table and he never was the same again.

685
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 1: Wo.

686
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 7: So this is the kind of stuff that I endure.

687
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 7: So that day they come to sell, they say, you

688
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 7: gotta call your lawyers. I call my lawyers. A guy

689
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 7: yells out the door. That's not bad news. Shorty is

690
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 7: what they call me. You know what I mean, Shorty

691
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 7: do wop because of the music thing. So they say

692
00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 7: that's not a bad call. So I pick up the

693
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 7: phone and my lawyers say James A. Dennis, and they

694
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,280
Speaker 7: never set you know, my entire name, said James A. Dennis,

695
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 7: and he said, your innocence has been proven. My two

696
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 7: lawyers on the phone, Amy and Ryan, who are like

697
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 7: brothers and sister to me, and they were telling me

698
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 7: like kept saying it, but I didn't really fully get

699
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 7: the full magnitude of it.

700
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 4: And then when I got off.

701
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 7: The phone, I put my tie up to the window

702
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 7: and I broke down and cried because for me, everything

703
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 7: that I went through in prison, I've been waiting for that.

704
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 7: So when you read the legal opinion and you see

705
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,720
Speaker 7: the first words where say James A. Dennis was wrongly,

706
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 7: that meant everything to me. That's what I waited for, period.

707
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,359
Speaker 7: And you don't know that you're gonna get that, but

708
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 7: that's what I waited for my entire life that I

709
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 7: was incarcerated. So when the second decision come, it's the

710
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 7: same thing. I put the tie up, I put my

711
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 7: head into the pillow and I cried. I ain't never

712
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 7: cried before. I didn't know what was going to happen.

713
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 7: I'm hoping and praying that they're going to do the

714
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 7: right thing, and so when it came, it was like,

715
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 7: you know, and the lawyers came up there and we

716
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 7: talked and what.

717
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 4: Does this mean?

718
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 7: And it's a real emotional roller coaster, where, you know,

719
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:25,439
Speaker 7: did y'all call my mom, did y'all tell my mom?

720
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 4: Did y'all tell my daughters? Did you you know what

721
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 4: I mean?

722
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 7: Do all these people know what just happened? So it's

723
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 7: an emotional roller coaster.

724
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 4: It's the best way I can explain it.

725
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,359
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone can possibly begin to understand that

726
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 1: that hasn't been through it. And let's talk about the

727
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: day you got out.

728
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 7: May thirteenth, twenty seventeen. I was released from Sei Green Prison.

729
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 7: Korby was there, My lawyers were there, A cool guy by.

730
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 4: The name of Dan was there, and they were waiting

731
00:37:57,719 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 4: outside for me in a van, you know.

732
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 7: But my lawyer of Ryan came in to get me

733
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 7: and give me a suit, and I hadn't had on

734
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 7: a suit and twenty five years, you know, since I've

735
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 7: been to church.

736
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 4: Oddly enough, the last night that I.

737
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 7: Was home, I was in church. She and I went

738
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 7: to church and did not get arrested that morning. So

739
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 7: it had been a long time since I put on

740
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:25,280
Speaker 7: a suit.

741
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 4: So I put on this suit this time, and we

742
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 4: walk out.

743
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 7: There's hugs, things like that, and then we get on

744
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,720
Speaker 7: this van and then we're going and everything seems surreal,

745
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 7: and I start making phone calls to my mom, to

746
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 7: my daughters, to my supporters, you know, thanking everybody. And

747
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,280
Speaker 7: I'm on my way to Philadelphia. And we're playing Boys

748
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,359
Speaker 7: the Men. We're playing Meek Mills, We're playing Elton John

749
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 7: Philadelphia Freedom. Where we're doing, you know as we come

750
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 7: into city, you know, we're playing pay La Belle, were playing.

751
00:38:58,600 --> 00:38:59,720
Speaker 4: You know, all my favorites.

752
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,839
Speaker 7: We're on the highway, you know, driving John Coletrane, you know,

753
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 7: the boss in the East Street band is up in

754
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 7: there where we're just grooving down the highway.

755
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:10,959
Speaker 4: Me I'm sitting there.

756
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 7: There's a lot of laughter going back and forth, and

757
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 7: I'm in the moment.

758
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:16,919
Speaker 4: I don't know what to eat.

759
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 7: When we get to a rest stop, I can tell

760
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 7: you that my first meal was like some French fries

761
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 7: with some onions on it and a milkshake with some

762
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 7: sunflower seeds.

763
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 4: I ain't know what to eat. I didn't know, you

764
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 4: know what I mean.

765
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 7: I had never seen a convenience store where McDonald's and

766
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 7: a gas station all that was in one now, you know,

767
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 7: stuff like that. So when we get to Philadelphia, after

768
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 7: we get down the highway, you know, my mom and

769
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 7: daughters are at the hotel and we have this there's

770
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 7: this moment with me and my mom's it's a beautiful

771
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 7: moment where we just sit there and we just hold

772
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 7: their hands and you know that it's emotional, you know.

773
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 4: And and now I'm.

774
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: Back home, and how did you meet your beautiful wife

775
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: who I've just recently met myself.

776
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 7: Right, she's my childhood's sweetheart. We actually met at Girls

777
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 7: High High School in Philadelphia and we were singing on

778
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 7: the District sixth Festival choir. And back then she was

779
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 7: an alto, I was a soprano, and we had met

780
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 7: on a choir at eleven and twelve years old.

781
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 1: But there was twenty five and a half year gap

782
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: in there. Yeah, this work.

783
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 7: So there was a petition that was started by my

784
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 7: supporters to save my life on change doc org. So

785
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 7: my supporters would send me in the mail the actual

786
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 7: petition to.

787
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:48,280
Speaker 4: See how it was growing.

788
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 7: And I was going through the names and then they

789
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 7: were in like alphabetic order, and then when it got

790
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,760
Speaker 7: to c I seen Corby.

791
00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 4: And it was like, oh, whoa.

792
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 7: You know, it's like that moment when you're like okay, okay,

793
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 7: that's my childhood sweetheart, right, you know what I mean,

794
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 7: and you're like okay. So then I had asked my

795
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 7: sister Hope to ask her, you know, did she believe

796
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 7: in my innocence? And my sister Hope asked her and

797
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 7: she said yeah. And it was like, okay, good cause

798
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 7: you looking for a silver line and for anybody to

799
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 7: believe in you, but for anybody to know the truth.

800
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,879
Speaker 7: You want everybody, every single person that ever cared about you,

801
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 7: to know the truth about the situation. And did she

802
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 7: read about it? And you know, and how did she

803
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 7: find me? Basically?

804
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 4: You know what I mean?

805
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 7: Because I basically like it's almost like I fell off

806
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 7: the face of the earth for so many years and

807
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,319
Speaker 7: we didn't have any contact. So when I seen her

808
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 7: name on the petition, I was like blown away. So

809
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:58,359
Speaker 7: I eventually call home and my mother says, somebody's here,

810
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 7: and I says, and she don't tell me. It's like

811
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 7: a little game. Then she gets on the phone and

812
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 7: we start talking. I'm still not thinking nothing of it.

813
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 4: I don't want to.

814
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 7: Maybe she just came to see my mother and check

815
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,319
Speaker 7: on me, you know. But the next Sunday I call,

816
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 7: she's there again and again, and so then you start

817
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 7: to feel like, okay, maybe, and then eventually she wanted

818
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 7: to come see me.

819
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 4: But I had shut down.

820
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 7: I was on some I'd stopped having visits for a

821
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 7: number of years, For over at least eight years or so,

822
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 7: I stopped having visits. I stopped going the yard, the

823
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 7: library I built the library, and my cell the lawyers

824
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 7: that sent me books, and all I was doing was

825
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 7: getting up every day studying, working on the Justice Jimmy

826
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 7: campaign because I was already suffering from the panic and

827
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 7: anxiety attacks and didn't know that I had the PTSD. Anyway,

828
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 7: she came five years prior to me being released, before

829
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 7: any of the good stuff started to happen, And it

830
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 7: just seemed like when she came, all the good stuff

831
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 7: started happening again, you know what I mean. You got

832
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,879
Speaker 7: the legal decision after that, you know, the one from

833
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 7: the honorable judging it to Brody, and she insisted on

834
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 7: coming to see me, and it just went from there.

835
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:19,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, it just went from there.

836
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:20,479
Speaker 1: It did.

837
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, you are got lucky?

838
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you did? You know you're a remarkable guy.

839
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:34,280
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm always just totally in awe of people

840
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 1: like yourself, who I get the privilege of being around

841
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 1: on a very frequent basis. It's almost a daily basis.

842
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: Actually having dinner tonight with John Huffington, who was on

843
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:49,280
Speaker 1: death row for thirty two years in Maryland. And wow,

844
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 1: you know, I was with Damien Echles this weekend and

845
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,760
Speaker 1: a man story of course. You know, there's so many

846
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,879
Speaker 1: incredible human beings and one more or so then the next.

847
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 1: And I'm always like, every time I meet somebody like you,

848
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 1: I always feel like I've heard everything there is to hear.

849
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:08,359
Speaker 1: And I hear a story like yours, and I'm like,

850
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: my head's just exploding again. But I have to ask,

851
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:14,720
Speaker 1: are you bitter?

852
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 4: I guess for me as well.

853
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 7: I want to tell you that nobody comes through the

854
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:22,359
Speaker 7: prison system unscathed.

855
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 4: For me, I'm in therapy. I go to therapy every week.

856
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 7: I suffer from post traumatic stress disorder, panic and anxiety attacks.

857
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 7: My life was destroyed for something I didn't do, and

858
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 7: it's something that when I hear sirens, I just shook up,

859
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 7: you know, I literally don't go nowhere.

860
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 4: You know, me coming here was a thing, you know.

861
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 4: It took a lot of courage for me just to

862
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:55,959
Speaker 4: come here.

863
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 7: So there's a lot of bitterness inside of me. To

864
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:03,359
Speaker 7: say that there's no would be lying. I'm hurt by

865
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 7: what has happened to me, you know, and I'm hurt

866
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 7: that is still happening to other people, like I know,

867
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 7: other innocent men and women that are in prison. What

868
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,439
Speaker 7: I try to do with that bitterness and that hurt

869
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 7: that I feel, I try to channel it and to

870
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 7: doing productive things like my music or champion other people causes,

871
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:29,399
Speaker 7: like Ralph Stokes, who's an innocent man in prison at

872
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 7: s CI Green, Willie Vessi who's locked up, who had

873
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 7: the same police detectives and district attorney and.

874
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 4: He's locked up.

875
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 7: And I go to their hearings and try to be

876
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,839
Speaker 7: supportive to their families and stuff like that. And when

877
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 7: I have an opportunity to speak out, I speak out,

878
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 7: you know.

879
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 4: So there's a lot of hurt in me.

880
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 7: You know, what my daughters went through while I was

881
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:57,240
Speaker 7: out of their life.

882
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 4: So yeah, it's yeah.

883
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, let's not forget them and all of

884
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 1: this too, right, I mean to talk about an innocent victim.

885
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 1: They were baby, well one wasn't even born yet, the

886
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 1: other one was born.

887
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 7: And you have to understand the ripple effects of that,

888
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,800
Speaker 7: you know what I mean, the lasting ripple effects of

889
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 7: not having your father and your life for twenty five.

890
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 4: Pointy five years.

891
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 7: You know, when the decision was made to get me

892
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 7: out and I was on the phone where her you know,

893
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 7: one of the things that she said to me was

894
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:36,280
Speaker 7: I used to sit by.

895
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 4: She said, I used to sit by the door every

896
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 4: day and look out the window and wait for you

897
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:39,240
Speaker 4: to come home.

898
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 7: That's that's something hard to swallow. What she said, Oh,

899
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:48,839
Speaker 7: I want you to do is to come home and

900
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 7: have a relationship with your granddaughter. And the ripple effects

901
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 7: are very lasting on anybody who has been in.

902
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 4: Prison, none of us us.

903
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 7: No matter how good it seems everyone is doing. No

904
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 7: one comes through the system unscathed. Me having nightmares all

905
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 7: the time, struggling out here in the world.

906
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:16,399
Speaker 4: It's real.

907
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 7: It's not easy, you know, because oftentimes when I hear siren,

908
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 7: I think that they coming back to still my life.

909
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 7: I made sure that there's a locator on my phone

910
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 7: at all times where I'm at you know, when I

911
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 7: first came home, I was literally calling the lawyers, like

912
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 7: every hour on the hour, calling other people, just so

913
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 7: my whereabouts are always known.

914
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 4: It's that deep.

915
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:59,839
Speaker 1: People that are listening, I'm sure they're thinking, what could

916
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: I do to help right some of these guys that

917
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 1: you left behind, who are innocent and stuck in the

918
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,880
Speaker 1: situation that you were in. What could they do to

919
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 1: possibly help you? Do you have any kind of social media?

920
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: Do you do speaking? Do you have a page where

921
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: people could donate to help you with your transition? If

922
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 1: that's even something that interests you. I don't know. I

923
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: don't want to make any assumptions, but what can people

924
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 1: do to help either the people that you left behind?

925
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 1: Let's start with that.

926
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 7: Ralph Stokes, he has a Facebook page in the website

927
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:38,240
Speaker 7: Ralphstokes dot org. Get in touch with his supporters there.

928
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 7: For Willie Vessi, you can look up his case and

929
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 7: get in touch with his supporters and you could write

930
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 7: these men they are still in prison, Willie Vessi is

931
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:49,359
Speaker 7: doing life v A. S. E.

932
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 4: Y and Ralph Stokes has death.

933
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 7: At Sei Green And any one of you listening can

934
00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 7: make a difference. You can help by writing them and

935
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 7: reaching out to them and then just start championing their

936
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 7: calls like I'm trying to do. Get involved on their

937
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 7: support team, and you know, help get them some type

938
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 7: kind of justice, you know what I mean. Because everybody

939
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 7: can make a difference, even when they think they can't.

940
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 7: They could use their voice to make a difference through

941
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 7: social media, through other outlets.

942
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 1: What about what about you? What do you need? What's

943
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:27,439
Speaker 1: I don't?

944
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 7: I don't necessarily I'm not looking for a handout, you

945
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 7: know what I mean. I don't even want to say

946
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 7: it that way. Maybe that's wrong enough, you know, to

947
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,840
Speaker 7: say it. But there is a trust fund that my lawyer,

948
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 7: Amy Row set up Amy Row of Washington, DC, Merland

949
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:45,760
Speaker 7: and you can look it up on our Facebook page

950
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 7: where people could donate if they wanted to. But I

951
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:55,800
Speaker 7: have a social media Instagram, Jimmy Underscore, Dennis Underscore music.

952
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:59,439
Speaker 7: I just like for people to listen to my song.

953
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:00,959
Speaker 4: You said, if.

954
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:03,360
Speaker 7: Give a listen, if you like it, you like it,

955
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 7: you know, hopefully you'll like it, heat know what I mean.

956
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 7: And I just really want to be a part of

957
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 7: the music fraternity, you know, earn my keep that way

958
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 7: you know, it's always been my dream to be in

959
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:22,319
Speaker 7: a business since I was a kid. And for me,

960
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 7: I used to see my musical heroes Gladys Night, Bruce

961
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 7: Springsteening all on the Grammys, and even when I was

962
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 7: on death row. That was the one time on death

963
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 7: row anybody could tell you that you know me. You

964
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 7: could not call me. When the Grammys were on, I disappear.

965
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 7: I would put on my headphones and I would watch

966
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 7: the Grammys, and I was in New Yorker LA all

967
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:47,840
Speaker 7: the time. I would not respond to anybody. I was

968
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 7: there watching, you know, and rooting and chairing everybody on.

969
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 1: What's your favorite song to sing? Oh?

970
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:57,360
Speaker 7: I don't necessarily have a favorite song to sing. I

971
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 7: just like, you know, whatever comes to my heart, you know.

972
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 1: Or what's your What do you want to sing right now?

973
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 1: You want to sing something right now?

974
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 8: Yeah?

975
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 1: The first time, Ibody, I'll say, you said, I say,

976
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:11,319
Speaker 1: you said, If you don't mind, do it?

977
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 8: Okay, okay, Bull Through the Hurricane, went through, Firing, Ring,

978
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 8: Fel Doll, Last Pain, Crazy, the Endsane for you, Woo.

979
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 4: For you, Woo.

980
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:38,919
Speaker 8: Nothing Never Rider Bounce always there too, we found never

981
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:40,399
Speaker 8: once let ship down.

982
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 1: I was there for.

983
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:45,279
Speaker 8: You woo.

984
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 4: For you woo whoo? Who you said.

985
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 9: You love me?

986
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 1: Oh?

987
00:51:55,400 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 9: True, you said love? You said.

988
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:16,880
Speaker 4: You said you love me.

989
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:23,920
Speaker 9: I'll be there for you.

990
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 1: There.

991
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 4: What's it's just Jimmy Dennis dot net.

992
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 7: You could find a single you said, you said what

993
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 7: you and then the word said?

994
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 4: Okay?

995
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 1: Last question? So what would you tell people? Because everyone

996
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,959
Speaker 1: that's listening right now someday is going to get a jury.

997
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:44,840
Speaker 1: Do you notice and you went through a really crazy

998
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:47,839
Speaker 1: situation people sleeping through a death penalty case. I mean,

999
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,319
Speaker 1: the word disrespect doesn't even come to mind. I mean,

1000
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 1: that's not strong enough. It's it's reprehensible, it's it's fucking terrible.

1001
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:01,320
Speaker 1: But that's beside the point. What would you tell people

1002
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 1: they get called to jerry duty and they end up

1003
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:07,959
Speaker 1: on a criminal trial. What advice could you give people?

1004
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:09,799
Speaker 1: People listening saying I don't ever want to make a

1005
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 1: mistake like that. I don't ever want to send an

1006
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 1: innocent man to jail. What would they look out for?

1007
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 1: What would be the tips that you could give them?

1008
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,239
Speaker 4: The first thing you shouldn't do is worry about making

1009
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:19,959
Speaker 4: a mistake. You should go in.

1010
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 7: There and it has to be like twelve angry men

1011
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:26,439
Speaker 7: in that room. If you take jury duty, somebody has

1012
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 7: to be Jack Lemon or Henry Fonda.

1013
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:29,319
Speaker 4: Right.

1014
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 7: You have to pay attention to every single thing going on.

1015
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 7: Don't be biased, sit back and pay close attention to

1016
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 7: the evidence and weigh it.

1017
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 4: It is a.

1018
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 7: Large responsibility for anybody to take on jury duty, and

1019
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:51,720
Speaker 7: you should want to because you could be the reason

1020
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 7: that somebody doesn't get real roaded like me, and that

1021
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:58,240
Speaker 7: an innocent man a woman comes home. We don't need

1022
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 7: more Jimmy Dinnis, Damien Echos, William Diez, Jeff Dislicks.

1023
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:05,880
Speaker 4: And the man the knocks and so on and so forth.

1024
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 7: We have to stop it somewhere, and by you sitting

1025
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 7: on the jury, paying attention to all the evidence and

1026
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,800
Speaker 7: then weighing it properly, you can be the one voice

1027
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 7: that says this doesn't make any sense, or pay attention

1028
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 7: to this facts and not the theatrics of it all

1029
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 7: that the other side is trying to do. Because that's

1030
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 7: what happened here. A lot of theatrics from the parties

1031
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 7: that big, the DA and the police, a lot of

1032
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:40,760
Speaker 7: theatrics and lies. And there was no way that anybody

1033
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 7: sat on that jury and shouldn't have been paying attention

1034
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 7: to the facts. You have to pay attention to the facts.

1035
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:47,360
Speaker 7: Facts matters.

1036
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 1: That's good advice and I'm sure it's going to help

1037
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 1: people as they go into that situation, which is a

1038
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 1: difficult situation for anybody. I think, you know, being in

1039
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 1: the courtroom and it's uncomfortable, it can take a long time,

1040
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 1: but it's a responsibility we all have to each other.

1041
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 1: I mean, because this could really happen to anybody, and

1042
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:10,280
Speaker 1: you're living proof, you're just a regular person. So okay,

1043
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:14,320
Speaker 1: then I guess the last part now is just anybody

1044
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 1: that you want to think that maybe we haven't thought

1045
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:20,440
Speaker 1: about already, and then any closing words that you have.

1046
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 1: This is a tradition that we have on wrongful conviction.

1047
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 1: At the end of the episode, I get to just

1048
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 1: sit and listen, which is what I like to do.

1049
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 1: And first I want to thank you, Jimmy. Very courageous

1050
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 1: of you to come up here and know it wasn't

1051
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 1: easy and to share your thoughts and your experience with

1052
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 1: the audience, So thank you so much for being here.

1053
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward. I'm looking forward to maintaining a friendship

1054
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 1: and I have some ideas you know you were talking

1055
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:51,720
Speaker 1: before about how comfortable the bed is at the Western

1056
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 1: in New York. Well, wrongful conviction is going to get

1057
00:55:54,440 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 1: you that bed so you'll sleep good, you know, all

1058
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:04,399
Speaker 1: asleep listening to your own show. Anyway, so we got

1059
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 1: that cover. But anyway, so now, like I said, I

1060
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:09,839
Speaker 1: get to I get to shut down my microphone and

1061
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 1: just put my headphones, kick back and listen. So it's

1062
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 1: all up to you.

1063
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:18,279
Speaker 7: I want to first thank you Jason for having me.

1064
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 7: You encountered means the world to me. Your hospitality is

1065
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:24,759
Speaker 7: greatly appreciated. I just want to commend you for the

1066
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:27,279
Speaker 7: work you're doing in the innocence community. It takes a

1067
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:30,319
Speaker 7: lot of courage to do what you do. I want

1068
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 7: to thank Jennifer Thompson. She's been one of my biggest

1069
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,560
Speaker 7: supporters and she's a hero of mine. I call her

1070
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:38,839
Speaker 7: my SHEI ro you know what I mean. She's been

1071
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 7: there for me from day one, champion my calls. I

1072
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:46,239
Speaker 7: like to thank all my supporters you know around the

1073
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 7: country that been there for me when I was in

1074
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:51,760
Speaker 7: prison and since I came home.

1075
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 4: Jeff, Melanie, Uh.

1076
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 7: Kathy and Ron and everybody. I want to thank my

1077
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 7: friend my friends have been an instrumental support for me.

1078
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:07,160
Speaker 7: You know, when you get get out, you need support.

1079
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 4: You know, your family, your friends.

1080
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:13,480
Speaker 7: I just want to thank my friends and my wife Corby,

1081
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:17,960
Speaker 7: and my friend Kasein Quade Ski and that due all

1082
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 7: for supporting me Arnold Imported Law Firm, Amy Ryan, Rebecca, Meghan, Melanie,

1083
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 7: Kitty B and James. They did a wonderful job and

1084
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:32,600
Speaker 7: it's because of them that I'm sitting here there like

1085
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 7: family to me and I love them daily.

1086
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:36,360
Speaker 4: And I just want to tell.

1087
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 7: People listening that if you do your due diligence and

1088
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 7: you read a case and you want to get involved,

1089
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 7: don't be scared to get involved.

1090
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 4: Reach out to that person in prison.

1091
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 7: Become their supporter and become their champion, become their voice,

1092
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:54,080
Speaker 7: because a lot of people in prison have no voice.

1093
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:56,040
Speaker 4: And to everybody on death.

1094
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:58,800
Speaker 7: Road, to every man and woman in prison, never give

1095
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 7: up and never give up on you dream, no matter

1096
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 7: what your dreams are. For everybody in the innocent community,

1097
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 7: I don't care if you wanted to be a fisherman

1098
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:10,520
Speaker 7: or a carpenter, go for it and don't give up.

1099
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 4: Never give up, never ever give up.

1100
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:18,680
Speaker 1: This has been an extraordinary episode of Wrongful Conviction with

1101
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 1: death Row EXONERI, Jimmy Dennis, Jimmy, thank you, thank you,

1102
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 1: don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you

1103
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:38,680
Speaker 1: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud

1104
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:41,280
Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll

1105
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

1106
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:48,800
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org

1107
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 1: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like

1108
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 1: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

1109
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:57,360
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

1110
00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow hellow us

1111
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:04,240
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful

1112
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:08,040
Speaker 1: Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production

1113
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:11,760
Speaker 1: of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company

1114
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 1: Number one