WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 3 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.480 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:06.160 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:09.360 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:13.240 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.760 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.919 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:25.920 can make your own decisions. This is it could happen here, 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:30.560 a podcast that I opened perfectly as a professional, as 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:32.280 a man who makes all of his money from the 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:38.200 podcasts uh no, notes, How is syphilis doing these days? 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:40.080 You don't hear a lot from syphilis? Is it? Is 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:42.680 it holding up? Okay, yeah, it's around. It's fine, Thank 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:45.720 you for asking it. I didn't know that it's not 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:48.160 the same thread it used to be. It comes back 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:50.400 in waves every now and then. It has had a 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:52.320 good run for a couple of years, kind of like 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:57.920 Star Trek. Right, yeah, yeah, there's a well, I don't 0:00:57.920 --> 0:00:59.760 think there's like new versions of it. I think it's 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:02.000 like the same, good old syphilis pretty much. I don't 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:07.679 think it changes drastically, So it's like Star Trek on Netflix. Yeah, yeah, okay, well, 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:11.119 good to hear from syphilis. This has been your syphilis update. 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:13.960 That's gonna do it for us this week until next week. 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:18.679 I've been Robert Evans, Dr Cavejota, and of course Garrison Davis. Alright, 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:24.520 b everyone by. It would be pretty funny to just 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:26.360 do that, so FA, to just drop a one and 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:30.360 a half minute episode on, But only if we put 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:35.399 in ads. M yeah, we really like every word. We 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:39.840 have a full ad break in between. Yeah, then then 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:42.360 people would probably complain lest about the nine dads that 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:46.640 are in our episodes. Right now, I can talk about 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:48.560 what are we what are we doing right now? What 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:52.440 is this episode about? What's going on? I'm assuming you 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:57.000 guys want to talk about the coronavirus or I don't know. 0:01:57.040 --> 0:01:59.040 I can talk about whatever you want, but I think 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:01.360 that's probably what you guys has brought me on for. 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:03.600 All Right, what do we what is this coronavirus? Is 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:07.280 this a problem? It's a little problem. It's not good 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:10.799 to hear it's it's it's not great. So why didn't 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:13.920 you give me a heads up on this? So? Yeah, 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:16.080 that that's me not giving you heads up on the 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:20.519 plank The figures talking about hear anything about this is 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:26.440 the thing, that's why you got those two jabs in 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:29.640 your arms and that random parking lot. Oh I thought 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:35.120 that was heroin. Sorry. First of all, can can we 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:37.520 talk about the use of the word jab. I don't 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:40.600 love it. It's I mean, you're not James Bond, you don't. 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:45.239 Let's not use jab. I prefer it's fair. I prefer 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:50.880 what I think is the proper medical term vein fucked. Yeah, 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:52.720 but it's not really your vein either. It's really just 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:57.040 intra muscular fucked. Oh right, muscle fucked yeah. I mean, 0:02:57.080 --> 0:02:59.560 what are the cool kids calling it? Is it a poke? 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:03.600 What do we want the teens call? Is it? Are 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:07.040 they calling it the TikTok's? Yeah, it's called it's called 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:09.520 the TikTok. I don't know. I've I've been been working on. 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:13.400 I've been working on all all day Today've been working 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:18.280 to find this proud boy who's pretending to take COVID 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:24.000 vaccines but it's actually steroids. Um. He calls the critical support, 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:30.840 he calls the extracurriculars. Okay, So that honestly rules, that's 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:33.800 extremely funny. I'm hoping an article will be by the 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:37.800 time this podcast airs. So, uh, who's the article for 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:42.480 I'm not sure yet. I'm talking with Opossum Press. Okay, cool, 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:45.800 Well that's funny, Garrison. What is today's episode about. Well, 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:47.520 we we wanted to talk to We wanted to talk 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:52.400 to Kava about both what the current plague situation is 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:54.280 because a lot of people seem to think it's over, 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:57.400 a lot of people seem to think it's not over. Um. 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:01.280 And then also, how is COVID and all the stuff 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:04.600 is still affecting our hospital and medical system? Um? Is 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:07.640 there supply shortages for medical supplies? What's going on in 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:12.040 different areas? Yeah, because all of that, all that kind 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:16.600 of stuff got you. Yes, is the answer? Yes, the answer, 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:20.000 that's the answer. Yeah, it's a it's still a problem. 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:22.600 I don't think. Uh, don't listen to anyone who tells 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:24.880 you that it's not um. Don't listen to anyone who 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:28.000 gives you too Sonny of forecast on it. But it 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:31.000 you know, it's different in different places, is the along 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:34.640 the short of it. In places where the vaccinations are 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:39.000 higher and where there's mandates and there's reasonable laws about things, 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:48.599 the rates are going down California, but also like Rhode Island, Maine, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Vermont. 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:52.520 These are places with high vaccination rates. The rates of 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:56.680 cases are going down in those places. Places like Mississippi, 0:04:56.720 --> 0:05:01.400 West Virginia, Idaho, Alabama, these are places where like it's 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:07.120 vaccination rates and the cases are going way up. You 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:09.560 guys might have heard of a couple of things happening, 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:12.039 Like there was that forty six year old guy named 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:15.120 Daniel Wilkinson. He's like a vet who developed something called 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:18.040 gallstone pancreatitis, which I could talk to you guys about 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:20.760 for hours. I won't, don't worry, but I could. I'm 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:25.280 just like you know, I could. I mean declared it's 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:28.560 not a total DNR, but like anyone who has um 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:31.960 cardiac arrest is on a DNR now in Idaho because 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:34.839 they just don't have the resources to be well, that's 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:39.279 not entire I mean what Okay, So that's not your fault. 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:40.919 You got wrong, because there were there were doctors that 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:43.720 were sort of spreading that story about now they are 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:46.360 and what's called the crisis standard of care. But and 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:49.960 in part of that means that hospitals could go to 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:53.159 putting everyone on DNR, which means do not resuscitate, which 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:56.120 means if you have a cardiac arrest, they won't do 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:59.120 anything about it. That's that's not what's actually happening. It 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:03.200 could happen when they institute this crisis standard of care. 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:06.040 What it means is that if a hospital gets so 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:09.479 short on their ventilators and they just don't have any 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:12.719 more room, then they could implement that. I mean, I 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:14.880 don't know I even heard of anyone. I was I 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:17.200 was asking around uh to see if any doctors in 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:19.480 Idahoo could tell me of a hospital that's actually doing it. 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:22.160 I haven't seen or heard of one that's actually doing 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:24.640 it yet, but they could. The point is, it's it's 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:28.000 that bad, but that's a reasonable discussion where doctors have 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:30.120 to discuss kind of like they were back in the 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:32.920 day in New York, where they have to be like, okay, 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:35.400 does this person do we put the you know, the 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:39.880 young lady on the mental lator or the old guy? 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:42.160 You know? Then we have to decide and they make 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:44.919 those decisions. It's really awful. It's a position no doctor 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:47.520 wants to be in. And now that's becoming a reality. 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:51.120 It's brutal. It's brutal out there, and and that's bleeding 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:57.000 into other states nearby. You know, So that situation because 0:06:57.360 --> 0:07:00.479 his doctor like couldn't find a and I see you 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:01.960 bed for him. Is that? That? Is that the story 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:04.920 you're talking about. That's the story. So he's this guy 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:06.840 who had a problem that can be fixed. I mean, 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:08.920 it's a procedure called an e r CP that he 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:11.880 can get done at specialty centers. And he didn't live 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:15.320 far from Houston. Houston has plenty of the specialty centers 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:17.520 that can do it. They have great gas from urologists 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:20.600 like myself, not as good, but you know, the same 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:23.920 sort of thing. And they could do it if they 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:26.920 if they you know, if they had the availability to 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:29.720 get him in. But they didn't, and so he died. 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:33.120 Is something that he shouldn't love. It's basically the example. 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:35.440 And I'm sure there's more examples of that. And what 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:38.760 really worries me is the examples that you're not hearing yet, 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:42.600 like cases they're delayed now, cancer screening, things that are 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:45.840 being delayed now in these hospitals that we're gonna be 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:49.440 paying down the road. That's that's the ship that really 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:56.880 scares me. Just people not going in for things in general. Yeah, exactly, 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:00.280 I have friends other than you who work and e 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:03.800 R s and stuff, um nurses and the doctor, um 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:07.920 and bull it's up in the p m W. But 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:11.480 the ship they're saying it is like into days crap, 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:16.560 like like I they are working on like building capacity 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:18.840 and making sure they have things to like treat their 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:21.720 friends because it's they're like the advices, do not go 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:24.720 to the hospital like if if, if at all possible, 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:28.200 because there's just not capacity for you unless it's like 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:31.880 literally an immediate life and death thing. It's it's almost 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:37.400 uh not worth like trying because there's just nothing. There's 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:40.400 no slack the system is and it's it's it's starting 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:42.240 to turn. It looks like here in in in the 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:46.080 Portland area, but like it's it's frightening, like these are 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:50.760 not people who would be bullshitting or or are are 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:54.120 are prone to panic. You know, they're e er professionals, 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:59.400 but um, it's it's it's fucked up, like it's it's it. 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:01.320 It's this thing where like the scary thing to me 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:03.520 is not even necessarily where we are right now, because 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:06.559 it does like there is some kind of broadly positive 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:08.360 news in a lot of areas about like where the 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:12.960 pandemic is going It's just like this situation won't be 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:16.839 fixed when case numbers go down. It's it's it's going 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:19.680 to be permanent damage has been done to this system. 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:22.719 And I guess what I'm wondering first off, like from 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:25.320 what you're seeing, like, what what is the extent of 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:29.120 the permanent damage done to our our emergency medical system 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:31.720 in particular and our our ability to even like get 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:36.000 care at the moment. Yeah, that's a really good question. 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:37.800 I don't I don't know. It kind of goes back 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:40.040 to I think what Garrison want to talk about, which 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:42.640 is like the collapse of the medical system. I think 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:46.600 we talk about it a lot in terms of we're 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:49.240 on the edge of collapse, we're near collapse. I think 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:52.959 there are places in this country where it already has collapsed. 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:56.960 I think that's pretty evident. It's really it's not homogeneous 0:09:57.000 --> 0:09:59.320 in any way across this country. There are certainly places 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:02.320 that are better than others, and there's certainly places that 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:06.640 have a lot more uh leeway and flexibility, but everywhere 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:10.080 is strained right now. And in regards to your question 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:12.800 about permanent damage, I'll answer that in regards to just 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:18.360 the personnel you know, because um, because of the show 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:20.360 that I have, the House of Pod follow us on 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:23.440 Twitter at the House of Pod, and I talked to 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:27.440 a lot of doctors and nurses from all over the country, 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:31.600 talk to them a lot, and it's bad. I mean, 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:35.600 the stress that they're under, the pts D that they're 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:39.400 that they're dealing with, the burnout. The level of burnout 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.800 is just intense. It's intense and and it's I think 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:45.679 we were talking about moral injury and burnout before all 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:48.800 this started, and now it is to a point where 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:51.360 I don't know what's going to happen to the medical system, 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:54.040 just in terms of the personnel when this is all over. 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:56.800 I know a lot of people who are getting out 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:59.720 of medicine, getting out clinical medicine. I mean out of 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:02.480 like would I would say, out of just my immediate 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:04.400 friend group. I can think of a couple off hand, 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:08.160 excellent doctors, really great I c u e R doctors 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:11.679 who are already planning their exit. And when I don't know, 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.320 I mean in the next coming years, that's gonna be 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:16.240 a major issue, and I don't know how we're going 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:18.400 to address that and our nurses in the I c u. 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:19.800 S Man the stuff they have to put up with 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:21.920 is and is insane. You just see it in their 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:24.880 eyes eyes are broken. Like I was. I volunteered on 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:29.840 the wards a couple of weeks ago, and people, they're 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.079 the doctors and nurses taking care of these COVID patients 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:36.160 day in day out, like they there's like a little 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:38.960 bit of their soul that's been broken. And just see 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:41.559 it in their eyes, like I was there for like 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:45.120 just a week, and it's terrifying. You know, you're going 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:47.960 into a room with a patient with COVID. It's scary, 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:50.559 you know, even no matter how much ppe protective equipment 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.040 you have on, like you're always a little scared. And 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:56.880 I just think years of that that weighs on a 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:59.000 person in a way I don't I mean, I am 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:00.760 worried about. I don't know how we going to address that. 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:06.120 M Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, And it's frustrating because like 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:08.520 from the perspective of people listening, right, the thing you 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:09.960 want to ask is like, well, how can I help? 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:12.920 And it's like, well you can't because you're already If 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:14.960 you're listening to the show, I assume you're masking. I 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:17.240 assume you've gotten vaccinated if you don't have like a 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:19.840 condition that that renders you unable to get the vaccine, 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:23.200 you're you're I I think our listeners tend to be 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:28.600 pretty responsible people. It's just not enough because of the 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:37.319 country decided to like Leroy Jenkins, a plague and ud Garrison. 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.360 Do you know that reference? Is that? Geerence? I'm familiar 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:45.200 with Leroy Jenkins. That's good. Were you born when Leroy 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:47.920 Jenkins became a thing, I don't know. You would have 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:50.480 been like three, would have been Yeah, yeah, it was. 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:54.440 It was Deadpool that brought him to your attention, isn't it. No, No, 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:59.160 I it came to my attention just doing general internet nothing. Yeah. 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:00.640 It was one of the first. It was the first 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:03.920 meme that you could show your parents pretty much. I 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:06.160 guess they were like Badger Badger, mushroom, a couple of 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:07.920 others in that category, but like, it was one of 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:11.520 the first memes that wasn't a man's gaping asshole prolapsed. 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:18.000 But I showed my parents that all the time. I 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:21.760 don't know. Yeah, there was a beautiful moment back in 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:25.520 the day with somebody got seat to stadium. Yeah, that's 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:28.280 what brought you into medicine. This is what I saw work. 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:30.480 They were so proud of me, like, look at look 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:32.800 at our son, look at our boy, look at our boy. 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:35.679 He can tell us exactly why that man's asshole looks 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:41.480 that way. I have a weird job, I guess. One 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:44.520 of my questions is, with the assumption that people are 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:49.000 taking the actual plague related steps they can to reduce 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:53.800 their burden to the medical system, what can people realistically do. 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:55.600 I mean, I think part of that is and this 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:57.240 is and I'm not going to have you to like 0:13:57.320 --> 0:13:59.880 explain how you can take care of your own medical 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.800 treatments in an emergency on a podcast. That's not the 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.679 time or the place, although I do think it's probably 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:09.160 a good idea for people to read up on first 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:12.120 aid and basic life saving emergency like it's always a 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:15.560 good idea to have some training there. But yeah, I mean, 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:19.120 do you have other advice? You know, you're exactly right. 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:21.960 The people that are listening to this podcast are totally 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:26.400 on board already, and they're super supportive, and we appreciate that. 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:30.200 I mean that is not unnoticed. I mean, um, you know, 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:35.480 it's having people like uh outside the hospitals every now 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:39.240 and then applauding doctors. I know it's cheesy, but it's great. 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:43.040 I'll take that over the blue angels flying overhead any day, 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:46.280 you know. So it's that's that stuff is really important, 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:48.960 and masking and taking care of themselves is is great, 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:54.200 you know. Um. The the real practical things that people 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:58.080 can do, I think is help contribute to sites that 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:01.280 will help get the rest of the world vaccinate. I mean, 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:05.120 we can definitely talk about that the question of boosters 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:08.600 here versus you know, vaccines for the first time elsewhere. 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:11.320 But there that's the one thing I would recommend right 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:14.400 now if you want to help, um, let's put our 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:18.560 money into places where we can get vaccines to other places. 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:21.680 And I think that every little bit of that helps 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:23.920 in the long run. And that's the sort of thing 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:27.400 that we could use. Other than that, I mean, I 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:29.760 just hope that people are still going into medicine and 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:32.040 in nursing, you know. That's the only thing I can 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:34.440 still hope is that people who haven't interest in it, 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.440 you know, continue to do it. And and for those 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:40.760 people who are just their training, those years of their 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:43.400 formative years are during this time. I just want to 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:47.080 let them know. I swear it gets better. It's not 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:49.560 always gonna be like this. And if you make it 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:53.800 through this, you're gonna be an amazing clinician. You're gonna 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:55.880 be an amazing nurse, You're gonna be an amazing doctor. 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:58.120 And I really want you guys to keep doing it. 0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:01.400 That's that's one thing I would say to Yeah, I mean, 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:03.840 and I I'll certainly add that if you're someone who's 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:07.680 contemplating a medical career, please please, I mean, just from 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:09.960 a there's a couple of things on that, like, just 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:13.520 from a perspective of what the world needs. It's what 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:15.520 the world needs. But also, if you're listening to this 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:18.160 stuff we're saying about the crumbles, about the possibility of 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:21.280 the collapse, if you're someone who who foresees things getting 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:24.160 potentially much more difficult in the future, not a lot 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:27.320 of things more useful in a bad situation than somebody 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:31.000 with medical training. I don't count on that getting me 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:34.600 through the apocalypse. I'm I'm soft. I am so so. 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:36.960 I went camping and I couldn't handle it. A couple 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:39.080 of weeks ago, I went camping. It was awful. There 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:42.720 was so much dust. It was an awful experience. But 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:45.680 I just thought, if the apocalypse comes, I will hopefully 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:48.720 get placed in a very nice tent because I'm a doctor, 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.720 so I'm counting on that to get me through. There 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:56.440 are there are so many dumbass boogaloo type quote unquote 0:16:56.440 --> 0:17:00.200 preppers who focus on the guns and the gear or 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:03.040 in the dried food, but the throwing knives in the 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:05.840 shirt throwing knives, but don't even have an IFFAC an 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:08.920 individual first aid kit or like a tourniquet, And like 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:12.160 the talk to you talk to like like I mean, 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:13.879 this is a little off topic, but like talk to 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:18.119 combat marines about like their favorite person. It's always the corman. 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:20.120 It's the guy who knows or the lady who knows 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:22.960 how to like patch a bullet wound and whatnot. Like 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:27.480 there's there's nothing more useful in any situation pretty much 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:31.200 that that is dangerous than somebody who can do medicine. 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:34.760 So please, if you're if you're studying to do medicine, 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:37.720 if you're contemplating becoming an e MT or a paramedic 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:40.399 or a nurse or whatever, good God, we need you 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:46.560 so badly. Yeah, we've talked to a little bit about 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:49.439 just in the medical system in general, and then we 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:53.480 can also kind of discuss more stuff related to how 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:56.480 COVID's impacting certain areas more than others. And like, let's 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:59.679 say someone who's someone who's listening, who's in one of 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:03.080 these areas that it has only vaccinated, you know, not 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:05.040 not a lot of people are going on with masks on, 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:08.480 and you know, school starting back up, maybe they have 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:10.159 kids are going to their school system. I know in 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:13.119 Texas they have you know, child deaths are rising. That 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:15.280 sounds very frightening to be that kind of person who, 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:17.639 like you know, would like like to see that stuff 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:20.760 happened in their state, but it's just not really possible. 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:23.000 And I don't know, with so much of the rest 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:26.000 of the world kind of slowly taking back restrictions, and 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:28.920 I'm sure it feels very jarring to be in a 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:31.920 situation like that and kind of like there's really nothing 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:34.280 you can do right besides you right, because you can 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:37.360 talk to your family, talk to your friends, but like overall, 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:39.880 it's hard to hard to make you know, a big 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:43.720 impact in a state, you know, like Texas, Alabama, like Idaho, 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:45.879 all the ones that you that you were mentioning before 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:51.320 from a medical kind of perspective, is there is there 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:53.639 any way people can kind of start to talk about 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:56.920 those things with their family and because the way we've 0:18:56.920 --> 0:18:59.239 been trying to get people take the vaccine with their 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:02.000 marketing we've been doing has not been super successful in 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:05.359 these demographics. Um, do you think there's other conversations that 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:09.080 can get people to slowly kind of be more, be 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:14.159 more able to you know, contemplate that. Yeah, that's a 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:17.240 that's a tough question. It's particularly tough if you're someone 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:20.600 who is believes in the importance of vaccines and you're 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:23.679 or the importance of masks and that sort of thing, 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:27.040 and you're in a place where you're a minority. That 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:32.720 is tough. The first thing I'll say is definitely know 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:37.280 that the vaccine helps. You're in a much better position 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:40.280 because of the vaccine. When I was on the wards 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:46.399 and I was looking at patients that they're almost all unvaccinated, 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:48.480 those are the people that end up in the hospital. 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:52.240 You can't still get into the hospitalized if you have 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:56.320 the vaccine, but it's it's much less likely. And you know, 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:58.760 not that these people don't count, they count just as much. 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:01.520 But if you don't have an underlying problem like a 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:04.960 liver transplant or some immune suppression. Then you're less likely 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:08.880 to have a really bad outcome with COVID if you're vaccinated, 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:12.200 So just know that it helps. You still might get it. 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:15.840 It'll suck, um, but but the most part, you're gonna 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:17.520 stay out of the hospital. And that really, I think 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:20.520 is something have a little comfort in. It really does 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:25.200 seem to work. You know. Outside of that, the schools 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:28.960 thing is a real concern for me, and I'm gonna 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:30.960 feel a lot better than We're going to be in 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:33.360 a much better position once we are able to get 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:37.359 kids vaccinated. So there's there's two things. You guys probably 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:42.399 heard that there was, um this this committee that met 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:46.120 to advise the FDA about booster shots. That's one thing. 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:48.440 So booster shots are gonna go out to people who 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:51.760 need them, uh sixty five and older people at high risk, 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:56.040 people in high risk occupations. They're gonna like frontline workers. 0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:59.200 So there's gonna be booster shots coming out. And then 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:03.320 the data coming out now about five yeah, yeah, and 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:06.320 that's pretty promising. Um, it looks like they're gonna do 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:08.879 okay with lower doses. So they use about one third 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:12.200 the dose of the vaccine. That the adults get and 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:14.880 it seems to work. We haven't seen much other than 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:18.639 the pre press release from UH Fighter, but you know, 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:21.399 if you really pick at it, it looks promising. So 0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:24.640 I am that's something that makes me hopeful. That's something 0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:28.040 I'm definitely clinging to. I think there's no way we're 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:30.720 getting out of this without vaccinating kids. That just has 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:34.440 to happen. Um. I think once that starts rolling out, 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:36.639 and hopefully it will soon. I mean I don't want 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:38.840 to put a date on it, but I'm hoping within 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:42.720 the next couple of months this starts happening. So you know, once, 0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:45.359 once that starts happening, I'm gonna feel a lot more comfortable. 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:47.760 I think people in those situations are gonna feel a 0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:53.320 lot more comfortable too. Yeah. Yeah. The booster thing is 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:58.440 an interesting question to me. I mean, they're a standpoint particularly, 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:01.880 you know, I think I think it's not a fair 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:03.520 narrative to say it has to be one or the other, 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:05.040 and I think people are saying that. I don't think. 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:06.800 I think we can do it. I think we can 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:11.879 produce enough vaccine here for people who haven't got it yet, 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:15.320 and enough for the boosters and start supplying more to 0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:18.160 the world. I mean, we can do more our government 0:22:18.359 --> 0:22:21.919 sharing fiser Maderna definitely need to do more in that regards. 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:24.520 They definitely need to do more in terms of production. 0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:27.000 They haven't hit their goals in a lot of these places. 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:29.320 And but it's also not like they haven't done anything yet. 0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:32.320 They give about like a you know, two hundred million 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:35.920 doses are being donated just this week. I think, so 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:39.160 they are doing things. That's happening. It's just we need 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:41.040 more of it. Everything needs we need more of it. 0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:44.919 We need to ramp up production. Yeah, it's weird because, 0:22:44.960 --> 0:22:48.399 like you're right, we could produce enough vaccines for the 0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:51.200 places that don't have them and enough vaccines for boosters 0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:53.240 over here, and all of that would take is a 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:56.040 couple of months of our Afghani stand mad money. But 0:22:57.000 --> 0:22:59.960 we're not going to do that, and so it probably 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:03.440 we will, like I don't know, contribute to an issue 0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:05.760 effect There's there's a chance that it will contribute to 0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:09.680 an issue of vaccine unavailability. But also it's not like 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:12.399 if we don't get the boosters, those vaccines will be 0:23:12.440 --> 0:23:16.480 available because we're just not giving them out. Yeah, in 0:23:16.520 --> 0:23:18.720 the extent that we need, so I yeah, I don't know, 0:23:18.760 --> 0:23:21.000 I understand what you're saying. I'll get the booster if 0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:25.080 they decide to give out boosters because I like not 0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:31.560 having not the plague damage getting or getting long COVID. Yeah. Yeah, 0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:34.760 that that seems great. And a lot of the vaccine 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:37.240 has been ce kind of relies. It tracks back to 0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:39.560 how we've been marketing in it, and I'm I've I've 0:23:39.600 --> 0:23:42.160 been on the team that's like we should stop using 0:23:42.160 --> 0:23:44.280 Fauchi because every time Fauci goes on TV to talk 0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:46.879 about vaccines, more people are going to do like a 0:23:46.920 --> 0:23:48.680 backfire infactor be like, no, I'm not going to get EXA. 0:23:48.720 --> 0:23:51.960 Don't trust Fauchi. So there's a particular like marketing thing 0:23:51.960 --> 0:23:54.160 that I think we've failed on. Like America is very 0:23:54.160 --> 0:23:57.520 good at marketing when we can make money, but when 0:23:57.520 --> 0:24:01.280 it's not related to getting gaining more profit, I think 0:24:01.359 --> 0:24:04.960 the government is very bad at marketing these types of things. Um. 0:24:05.000 --> 0:24:07.720 And on the kind of the marketing side of things, 0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:09.720 I don't know, this is this is kind of old 0:24:09.720 --> 0:24:14.320 news at this point. But the whole smoll in testicals thing, um, 0:24:14.440 --> 0:24:17.080 which we have you have not talked about on this 0:24:17.119 --> 0:24:20.680 show about but I'm sure you have thoughts about how 0:24:20.800 --> 0:24:23.800 this thing has kind of balloons, which is that can 0:24:23.840 --> 0:24:30.320 be like, so, how how the marketing and misinformation relates 0:24:30.320 --> 0:24:36.040 to this cold, kind current, kind of current problem. Yeah. Yeah, 0:24:36.080 --> 0:24:38.800 first of all, that particular story, I mean that's hilarious. 0:24:38.880 --> 0:24:42.200 I mean, like this, I've never I've never seen someone's 0:24:42.280 --> 0:24:48.280 excuse for venereal disease becomes such an international issue. Yeah, 0:24:48.520 --> 0:24:52.840 contribute to the dest probably of hundreds of people, right, Um, 0:24:52.880 --> 0:24:55.000 you know it's it's the marketing thing is a really 0:24:55.080 --> 0:24:57.800 great question, and and it's been driving me crazy because 0:24:57.840 --> 0:24:59.560 like part of me at this point just wants to 0:24:59.560 --> 0:25:01.639 be like the fucking vaccine, but the fund's wrong with 0:25:01.720 --> 0:25:04.680 you get the fucking vaccine part of my language and like, um, 0:25:04.720 --> 0:25:07.359 but then the part of me knows that that doesn't work. 0:25:07.600 --> 0:25:10.400 Like I do believe doctors should be able to express 0:25:10.400 --> 0:25:13.359 their frustration. Um, they need to be able to do that. 0:25:13.400 --> 0:25:15.840 If we can't do that right now, I mean, it's 0:25:15.880 --> 0:25:17.600 game over. But they need to at least have that 0:25:17.680 --> 0:25:20.960 ability where doctors can voice their frustration with antivactors but 0:25:21.040 --> 0:25:23.359 still give them the same high level of care that 0:25:23.400 --> 0:25:24.959 we're always going to give them the matter what when 0:25:24.960 --> 0:25:28.480 they show up in the hospital. But it's not working 0:25:28.520 --> 0:25:31.280 to do that. We need other approaches. I don't I 0:25:31.320 --> 0:25:33.160 don't entirely know what they are. There are some people 0:25:33.560 --> 0:25:36.000 they're they're so far out there that we're just never 0:25:36.000 --> 0:25:39.000 going to reach the people, the microchip people. There's like 0:25:39.040 --> 0:25:41.480 a level of deep programming that will need to happen 0:25:41.520 --> 0:25:44.639 to those people that we just it's it's too exhausting 0:25:44.680 --> 0:25:47.000 to do that. You really have to, like, if you 0:25:47.040 --> 0:25:49.680 can't scale that in any meaningful way for the country, 0:25:50.119 --> 0:25:53.320 I think I think, yeah, I don't know. I think 0:25:53.320 --> 0:25:55.680 calling it the Trump vaccine was the closest we got 0:25:55.720 --> 0:25:58.879 to have a possibility, and that fucking I'm interested in 0:25:58.960 --> 0:26:01.479 your thoughts on the fucking bright Bart article and if 0:26:01.520 --> 0:26:03.919 you're not aware, if you're less online than us, and 0:26:04.000 --> 0:26:07.400 God bless you if you are right Bart, the which 0:26:07.480 --> 0:26:10.080 is I don't know. CNN for Fascists came up with 0:26:10.119 --> 0:26:13.320 an article blaming the Democrats for the fact that Republicans 0:26:13.359 --> 0:26:15.280 don't want to take the vaccine and saying it's a 0:26:15.320 --> 0:26:19.800 secret Liberal plot to exterminate conservatives because conservatives refused to 0:26:19.840 --> 0:26:24.159 take vaccines because they're fundamentally oppositional defiant, um, and like 0:26:24.240 --> 0:26:26.480 it's it's the fault of people who are telling them 0:26:26.480 --> 0:26:28.720 to take the vaccine that they're not taking the vaccine 0:26:28.800 --> 0:26:31.640 because obviously, why would you trust the liberal on anything? 0:26:31.680 --> 0:26:33.359 But also they're trying to kill us. We're going to 0:26:33.440 --> 0:26:36.680 lose the election because we're all dying because we refuse 0:26:36.760 --> 0:26:40.720 to get vaccinated for a preventable disease. Anyway, how do 0:26:40.760 --> 0:26:44.879 you feel about that guy? I don't. I don't love it. 0:26:44.920 --> 0:26:47.760 I don't love it. Um. I'm vaguely familiar with bright Bart. 0:26:47.880 --> 0:26:51.000 I don't know that exact article because I have enough 0:26:51.040 --> 0:26:55.280 pain in my life already. But um, but you know, 0:26:56.480 --> 0:26:59.439 I do wonder It's like when they put out articles 0:26:59.440 --> 0:27:02.800 like this, or Tucker Carlson goes out and he does 0:27:02.880 --> 0:27:06.600 his thing questioning vaccine, just asking questions about vaccines that 0:27:06.720 --> 0:27:11.359 lead to vaccine hesitancy, Like what calculations are they doing? 0:27:11.400 --> 0:27:14.440 Are they doing calcular? Is this just him being callous 0:27:14.520 --> 0:27:17.000 in not giving a funk and just doing it, or 0:27:17.080 --> 0:27:19.440 is there some calculation that him and some sort of 0:27:20.320 --> 0:27:22.680 right wing fink tank are doing where they're like, hey, 0:27:22.720 --> 0:27:27.120 look this sells to our audience. They love it. Let's 0:27:27.200 --> 0:27:29.520 keep doing it. Yes, we are going to lose ex 0:27:29.960 --> 0:27:33.000 portion of our audience because of this, but we still 0:27:33.040 --> 0:27:36.000 have plenty of audience left. Like, I don't, I wonder 0:27:36.440 --> 0:27:39.280 how that's happening. Like it is hurting. It is true, 0:27:39.320 --> 0:27:41.680 it is hurting them more than than other people. It's 0:27:41.720 --> 0:27:46.000 hurting everyone. Everyone's getting affected by this, um but there 0:27:46.080 --> 0:27:48.520 it's those states that are being affected, the people not 0:27:48.560 --> 0:27:51.320 getting vaccinated who are listening to people like Tucker Carlson. 0:27:51.640 --> 0:27:54.120 So I don't, I don't understand what their endgame is here, 0:27:54.200 --> 0:27:58.080 Like this is their market? Why why not protected? And 0:27:58.080 --> 0:28:00.080 that I do not have a good answer for. I 0:28:00.119 --> 0:28:03.040 was hoping one of you guys would. Um. You know, 0:28:03.200 --> 0:28:07.720 it's there's a lot going on there. I think a 0:28:07.760 --> 0:28:10.720 decent chunk of it is the assumption that whatever they 0:28:10.760 --> 0:28:14.120 lose in terms of dead followers won't be worth more 0:28:14.359 --> 0:28:18.719 than continuing the cash bonanza. That is owning the lips, 0:28:19.359 --> 0:28:21.960 right because that's all that that's all, that's the entirety 0:28:22.000 --> 0:28:24.439 of the right wing media. It's just owning the lips. 0:28:24.520 --> 0:28:29.399 It's just oppositional defiant, it's just hating anything democrats do. 0:28:30.000 --> 0:28:33.400 So you you kind of can't. You're a cuck if 0:28:33.440 --> 0:28:38.120 you tell people to receive basic medical care if Democrats 0:28:38.120 --> 0:28:41.200 are taking that basic medical care right, Um, so it's 0:28:41.200 --> 0:28:44.160 a pride thing for a lot of them. To two 0:28:44.200 --> 0:28:47.360 things I love is when you when you use the 0:28:47.360 --> 0:28:50.440 word cuck or when you do Ben Shapiro's voice, Like 0:28:50.480 --> 0:28:53.280 those are like two of my favorite things that you do. 0:28:53.480 --> 0:29:00.080 It's you're saying really well, far beyond anything rational on 0:29:00.160 --> 0:29:07.480 the right. Um, and it's it's difficult to like I 0:29:07.480 --> 0:29:10.440 I I think the calculation is just like I think 0:29:10.440 --> 0:29:11.760 a lot of these guys is the same thing with 0:29:11.840 --> 0:29:14.640 climate change. Like they're smart enough to know that they're 0:29:14.640 --> 0:29:18.360 contributing to an uninhabitable world, but they want to cash 0:29:18.400 --> 0:29:20.160 in first. They want to get as much as they 0:29:20.200 --> 0:29:22.680 can out before it falls apart. And I think that's 0:29:22.680 --> 0:29:24.640 all any of these people care about. Because I think 0:29:25.360 --> 0:29:28.960 there are the true believers. The radio guys are true believers, right, 0:29:29.000 --> 0:29:31.640 the radio guys who keep dying because they don't be vaccinated. 0:29:31.880 --> 0:29:33.800 Those guys did believe that it was some sort of 0:29:33.800 --> 0:29:38.480 weird conspiracy, it was the communist whatever. Um. Clearly because 0:29:38.520 --> 0:29:41.520 they did management level, yeah, mid management level. They don't 0:29:41.560 --> 0:29:43.520 know all the stuff that they're being told from above 0:29:43.560 --> 0:29:45.320 and they kind of believe it enough to where they 0:29:45.400 --> 0:29:48.560 kill themselves for the company. I think for Tucker, it's 0:29:48.720 --> 0:29:51.960 more a matter of like, hey, I keep making money 0:29:51.960 --> 0:29:55.200 and I maintain my power if I If I continue 0:29:55.280 --> 0:29:58.840 to hold this line, you you lose power, you get weaker. 0:29:59.080 --> 0:30:01.239 It's like when Trump bood for telling people to take 0:30:01.280 --> 0:30:06.840 the vaccine. You know, yeah, yeah, um yeah, crazy. You 0:30:06.920 --> 0:30:10.320 can't go back with this ship. You just can't, and 0:30:10.360 --> 0:30:15.520 you certainly can't admit to ever having been wrong. Right Yeah, man, 0:30:16.520 --> 0:30:19.040 it's good ship. What a what a fun note to 0:30:19.240 --> 0:30:22.720 end of the episode on what a good society we've built? 0:30:23.480 --> 0:30:32.040 Oh bravo, m hm ah, well cover it. People can 0:30:32.080 --> 0:30:35.360 find you by looking up the House of Pod. Yes, 0:30:35.840 --> 0:30:40.320 uh was slightly less depressing, but not not super uplifting 0:30:40.320 --> 0:30:43.360 either at this point. Uh. Follow us at the House 0:30:43.360 --> 0:30:46.400 of Pot at Twitter, and you can listen to our 0:30:46.400 --> 0:30:49.840 podcast pretty much anywhere are you listen to podcast. We'll 0:30:49.840 --> 0:30:52.800 talk about medical type things, but not so deep into 0:30:52.800 --> 0:30:56.600 the woods that it's not entertaining, I hope. Yeah the woods, Yeah, 0:30:56.840 --> 0:31:00.440 the woods. We have fun guests ranging from the world's 0:31:00.440 --> 0:31:06.000 best medical experts to you know, you guys. The best 0:31:06.040 --> 0:31:10.640 medical experts. You guys are right up there for medicine, right. 0:31:10.880 --> 0:31:15.240 There's no better medicine than just a big fat pile 0:31:15.320 --> 0:31:17.480 of cocaine. And the good thing about cocaine is it's 0:31:17.520 --> 0:31:20.640 a sterilizing agent. So if you're worried about COVID getting 0:31:20.640 --> 0:31:24.200 in your nasal passages, just rail cocaine before you and 0:31:24.280 --> 0:31:26.480 after you go into the store. It's like getting a 0:31:26.560 --> 0:31:30.000 COVID test, but more fun. Legally, I have to tell 0:31:30.000 --> 0:31:33.640 you that's false. Well, we all have our opinions about 0:31:33.680 --> 0:31:39.440 how cocaine works, and I have my fact, have my facts. Now, 0:31:39.440 --> 0:31:41.600 if you excuse me, I'm gonna go pick up a 0:31:41.640 --> 0:31:57.120 single item at the grocery store. Welcome to It could 0:31:57.120 --> 0:32:00.760 Happen Here pod podcast that is today about the fact 0:32:00.760 --> 0:32:04.680 that ten years ago it did happen. And when when 0:32:04.680 --> 0:32:06.320 when I When I say it did happen, I mean 0:32:06.560 --> 0:32:09.160 we occupied an extremely large number of places, and we 0:32:09.200 --> 0:32:12.800 did so in interesting and incredibly bizarre ways. And with 0:32:12.800 --> 0:32:15.480 with with me to talk about this is Garrison as always. 0:32:16.280 --> 0:32:19.600 I like that you used the Twitter handle for our podcast, 0:32:19.640 --> 0:32:24.400 not the actual name, but that's fine. Where can it? 0:32:24.560 --> 0:32:29.320 Where can it go? For it? But helloon with me. 0:32:29.400 --> 0:32:33.400 I have I have my special guest, Vicky Ostrowil, who 0:32:33.480 --> 0:32:36.160 is an agitator, who is a writer, who has done 0:32:36.560 --> 0:32:41.440 many many things, probably most famously writing the book In 0:32:41.520 --> 0:32:48.520 Defense of Looting um from Bold Press, bold Type Press, Bultypress. Yeah, 0:32:48.800 --> 0:32:53.280 very good book. People got very bad, people got very angry. Yeah, 0:32:53.320 --> 0:32:55.320 thank you. It's it's really I'm really excited to be 0:32:55.360 --> 0:32:58.200 here to to talk about the the anniversary of Occupy 0:32:58.320 --> 0:33:00.200 from which is basically, you know, when I and I 0:33:00.280 --> 0:33:03.480 all got this whole train rolling, so yeah, and the 0:33:03.480 --> 0:33:05.600 the other the other thing um that that it is 0:33:05.640 --> 0:33:07.680 probably relevant here is that Vicky was one of the 0:33:07.680 --> 0:33:11.640 first people at occupy and and a little correct me 0:33:11.640 --> 0:33:14.479 if I'm wrong about this. I found an oblique reference 0:33:14.520 --> 0:33:16.560 to this in one of the things I read. You 0:33:16.840 --> 0:33:22.160 facilitated the first meeting. Yes, the yeah, yeah, I guess 0:33:22.160 --> 0:33:25.479 it's on the record now, yeah, I uh yeah, during um, 0:33:25.560 --> 0:33:28.720 during the general New York City General Assembly it was 0:33:28.760 --> 0:33:32.480 called in August UM, there was you know, uh ad 0:33:32.520 --> 0:33:35.960 Busters hopefully called for a general assembly, and you know, 0:33:36.000 --> 0:33:37.840 a bunch of us sort of went down there and 0:33:37.920 --> 0:33:41.880 there was a tanky party there um doing a general assembly, 0:33:41.920 --> 0:33:46.160 which was just them on speakers, um doing their regular ranting. 0:33:46.320 --> 0:33:49.160 Um hadn't changed much in ten years, um and uh 0:33:49.240 --> 0:33:51.680 and we um. Yeah, so a bunch of us just 0:33:51.720 --> 0:33:54.440 went and sat down, uh you know, to the side 0:33:54.440 --> 0:33:57.280 of it, and started an actual general assembly. And by 0:33:57.400 --> 0:34:00.560 by by happenstance, I I associated that meeting and it 0:34:00.640 --> 0:34:06.080 was the first and last Occupy Mediamate pasilitation. Yeah. Okay, 0:34:06.120 --> 0:34:10.279 so I want to rule back a little bit too, 0:34:10.840 --> 0:34:15.319 just before the start of occupied because Yeah, the more 0:34:15.440 --> 0:34:17.319 thinking about this, the more have just realized that two 0:34:17.400 --> 0:34:21.239 thousand eleven was just a profoundly weird time in a 0:34:21.239 --> 0:34:23.920 lot of ways. I think people have forgotten, like the 0:34:24.080 --> 0:34:27.160 entire American security state is at this point being terrorized 0:34:27.160 --> 0:34:30.160 by you joint anonymous lull sick hacking campaign called anti Sick, 0:34:30.239 --> 0:34:32.600 the symbol of which he is a guy in a 0:34:32.600 --> 0:34:35.239 guy fox mask wearing a monocle and a top hat. 0:34:35.640 --> 0:34:38.239 And this was just like normal, Yes, this was the 0:34:38.320 --> 0:34:40.399 thing that I was like, Oh, yeah, yeah, it's it's 0:34:40.400 --> 0:34:42.120 the it's it's the it's the anti sex top hat, 0:34:43.120 --> 0:34:45.759 full faced guy in a monocle. Fun fact about that, 0:34:45.800 --> 0:34:48.440 just before we forget David Gramer rest in Peace who 0:34:48.480 --> 0:34:52.520 was there in the early days organizing claimed and um 0:34:52.560 --> 0:34:54.600 that he had he had heard and talked to the 0:34:54.719 --> 0:34:57.120 some of the like overheard the police talking about the 0:34:57.160 --> 0:34:59.879 reason they didn't sweep the occupying encampment the first day 0:35:00.000 --> 0:35:02.080 when we were pretty weak, frankly, or the first week, 0:35:02.160 --> 0:35:03.960 was because there were a bunch of guy fox masks 0:35:04.200 --> 0:35:06.520 and they were scared. They were scared they were going 0:35:06.560 --> 0:35:09.880 to get hacked. If they were scared, they were going 0:35:09.920 --> 0:35:12.640 to hack them and steal there. So it was a 0:35:12.640 --> 0:35:15.719 weird time indeed. Yeah, Yeah, And I think that the 0:35:15.920 --> 0:35:19.000 the other thing that's you know, I think important about 0:35:19.000 --> 0:35:21.200 this time period if we're looking back at what occupied was, 0:35:21.280 --> 0:35:23.120 is that so this is this is three years after 0:35:23.280 --> 0:35:28.279 the the financial collapse, and you know, so I think 0:35:28.480 --> 0:35:30.359 this is you know, in the room to two eleven, 0:35:30.800 --> 0:35:33.719 there's been a few there's been a few protests. There's 0:35:33.719 --> 0:35:35.719 been there was a big thing increased two eight that 0:35:35.760 --> 0:35:38.839 was kind of related, kind of unrelated. But I think 0:35:39.120 --> 0:35:40.920 in my sense of you know, I was like, I 0:35:40.960 --> 0:35:43.080 don't know, I was like thirteen. I was like I 0:35:43.120 --> 0:35:45.360 was like an actual baby child. But my senseitive was 0:35:45.440 --> 0:35:46.960 kind of just like like there's that there's this like 0:35:48.080 --> 0:35:51.800 sense that everyone just kind of waiting for something to happen. Yeah, 0:35:51.920 --> 0:35:53.759 and it's just like hadn't and it just like kept 0:35:53.760 --> 0:35:57.319 going and kept going and kept going. And then you know, 0:35:57.360 --> 0:36:01.480 and then and then Genesia starts and suddenly there's you know, 0:36:01.480 --> 0:36:04.560 they're there. There's Protestant Tunisia, there's pert Egypt. There's like 0:36:04.960 --> 0:36:08.799 people fighting tanks in the street in Bahrain, and you know, 0:36:08.840 --> 0:36:10.879 and this this is you know, this this becomes down 0:36:10.840 --> 0:36:14.000 at the up spring and it starts to spread to 0:36:14.040 --> 0:36:16.719 a lot of places. And Vicky, I want to talk 0:36:16.760 --> 0:36:19.239 I want to ask you about this because you you 0:36:19.280 --> 0:36:22.160 were in Spain when it starts started there. I want 0:36:22.200 --> 0:36:24.640 to talk about what what what was going on there? 0:36:24.800 --> 0:36:28.200 And yeah, so I wasn't there when it started. Um, 0:36:28.400 --> 0:36:32.000 but but but yes, um basically you know, and then 0:36:32.120 --> 0:36:33.520 and I want to shout out like there were there 0:36:33.520 --> 0:36:35.600 were a bunch of like movements, like in two thousand eight, 0:36:35.680 --> 0:36:37.560 right after the crash, there were a bunch of protests, 0:36:37.560 --> 0:36:39.560 like outside Wall Street. They were very small, but they 0:36:39.560 --> 0:36:41.520 were like sort of the like produced some images. And 0:36:41.520 --> 0:36:44.520 then there was you know, in two thousand uh nine, 0:36:44.520 --> 0:36:47.759 there's the Oscar Grant rebellion in Oakland, and you have 0:36:47.800 --> 0:36:50.719 the Madison occupation earlier in two thousand eleven, UM, where 0:36:50.719 --> 0:36:55.399 they where the workers unions took over the state House. Yeah, 0:36:55.760 --> 0:36:58.479 everyone does. It was actually really important at the time. Um. 0:36:58.560 --> 0:37:01.239 But yeah, so so you know, so I think I'm 0:37:01.239 --> 0:37:03.120 glad you brought up Greece because I think actually Greece 0:37:03.239 --> 0:37:06.880 really that that sort of anarchist rebellion thousand nine really 0:37:06.960 --> 0:37:09.160 kicked off the cycle in a certain way, but also 0:37:09.239 --> 0:37:11.680 didn't quite It wasn't quite the first domino, you know, 0:37:11.719 --> 0:37:14.000 it was sort of more of a like forecast. So yeah, 0:37:14.000 --> 0:37:17.760 so Arab spring, uh, you know, is huge. It's this huge, 0:37:17.920 --> 0:37:21.320 huge event, and the US media is loving it because 0:37:21.360 --> 0:37:24.320 obviously like these sort of old you know, quote unquote 0:37:24.320 --> 0:37:27.040 Marxist dictators are falling, um, and so of course the 0:37:27.120 --> 0:37:29.439 US is like all about it, um, which of course 0:37:29.560 --> 0:37:32.560 later later on the return of the tankies will use 0:37:32.600 --> 0:37:36.560 to um to confuse everyone on the US left and 0:37:36.600 --> 0:37:41.160 destroy all solidarity with Syria anyway. Um, But that's neither 0:37:41.200 --> 0:37:44.560 herener there. Um. So then then in then in that summer, um, 0:37:44.600 --> 0:37:47.640 you get this this wave of early summer like May 0:37:47.640 --> 0:37:49.839 in June, In fact, the fifteenth of May was when 0:37:49.880 --> 0:37:52.239 the movement started in Spain and then it starts student 0:37:52.239 --> 0:37:54.480 again in Greece. And it was similar to occupy and 0:37:54.560 --> 0:37:57.399 that there was these people coming together in these sort 0:37:57.400 --> 0:38:00.279 of encampments in the center of the city. Uh. Um. 0:38:00.320 --> 0:38:02.920 I don't know if people remember um or or know 0:38:03.000 --> 0:38:05.920 this history economically, but Spain and Greece had recently been 0:38:05.960 --> 0:38:08.720 sort of going through these like big big booms, economic 0:38:08.760 --> 0:38:11.120 booms just for about five or six years that turned 0:38:11.120 --> 0:38:13.439 out to be real estate bubbles funded by their entry 0:38:13.440 --> 0:38:16.080 into the EU, and two thousand ages smashed that and 0:38:16.080 --> 0:38:19.120 they were just like incredibly impoverished. I mean like Spain 0:38:19.200 --> 0:38:22.240 was facing something like fifty youth unemployment. Greece was like similar. 0:38:23.160 --> 0:38:26.320 Spain has recovered more than Greece has in the intervening years, 0:38:26.520 --> 0:38:29.120 but it's still bad. Um So so yeah, so you 0:38:29.160 --> 0:38:31.120 had all these it was it was you know, predominantly 0:38:31.120 --> 0:38:34.040 young folks who were um you know, had been pushed 0:38:34.040 --> 0:38:35.640 out of the economy, who had been pushed out of 0:38:35.680 --> 0:38:38.360 their homes, whose families had loft their homes, um gathering 0:38:38.400 --> 0:38:40.799 together and it was all over both countries and it 0:38:40.840 --> 0:38:44.040 was huge. Um. I happened to just be in Barcelona. 0:38:44.360 --> 0:38:47.440 I had been on a planned vacation with some friends. Um, 0:38:47.600 --> 0:38:48.960 you know that we had we had planned like sort 0:38:49.000 --> 0:38:51.120 of six months earlier when it while popped off, and 0:38:51.160 --> 0:38:53.799 I had also just started my writing Um, I would 0:38:53.800 --> 0:38:56.760 say career, but that's very generous. Um. I had started 0:38:57.200 --> 0:39:01.040 technically being paid for writing things. And they were like, oh, 0:39:01.120 --> 0:39:03.160 right about it, Like, let's like cover it while you're there. 0:39:03.600 --> 0:39:06.040 And because no one in the US was talking about 0:39:06.120 --> 0:39:09.239 what was going on in Spain when my article popped up, 0:39:09.360 --> 0:39:11.759 like and this is like, this is really strange. But 0:39:11.760 --> 0:39:13.399 it was like the early days of Twitter as well, 0:39:13.800 --> 0:39:15.920 um two eleven, Like I guess Twitter started two nine 0:39:16.000 --> 0:39:20.040 or something, and so like so the the one of 0:39:20.040 --> 0:39:22.160 the accounts from the camp tweets out my article. So 0:39:22.200 --> 0:39:23.560 I went there the next day. I was like I 0:39:23.600 --> 0:39:25.440 wrote that article and then I was like embedded for 0:39:25.480 --> 0:39:27.560 a week. And I was there for like kind of 0:39:27.560 --> 0:39:30.000 the height of the popular power of the movement in Barcelona. 0:39:30.040 --> 0:39:31.400 Only for a week, but I was there on the 0:39:31.560 --> 0:39:33.360 day when there was a two and a half million 0:39:33.400 --> 0:39:37.160 person march through Barcelona just like still probably the biggest 0:39:37.160 --> 0:39:38.799 march I've ever been part of it and probably who 0:39:38.800 --> 0:39:42.120 ever will be UM was like lat and so you know, 0:39:42.160 --> 0:39:44.560 so that goes on for for a few months in 0:39:44.600 --> 0:39:47.080 Greece and Barcelona, it sort of hits similar limits that 0:39:47.120 --> 0:39:49.600 occupy would eventually hit, which is that like you know 0:39:49.719 --> 0:39:52.360 that that if you can take the space away from people, 0:39:52.880 --> 0:39:55.600 that's that's the common ground, and like you can't really 0:39:55.640 --> 0:39:59.040 have the movement without the encampment. And also all the 0:39:59.080 --> 0:40:01.920 way in which the camps sort of force a kind 0:40:01.960 --> 0:40:05.600 of internal naval gazing and people like get really obsessed 0:40:05.640 --> 0:40:08.040 with maintaining the camp rather than the struggle with the 0:40:08.080 --> 0:40:10.759 city at large. All of those, all of those contradictions 0:40:10.760 --> 0:40:12.759 sort of like came up in Spain and Greece as well. 0:40:12.800 --> 0:40:15.120 But at the time, you know, I was there for 0:40:15.160 --> 0:40:16.400 the height of it. I come back to New York, 0:40:16.400 --> 0:40:17.959 I'm like, this is going to happen in the US, 0:40:18.000 --> 0:40:20.120 like it has to. UM. I think a lot of 0:40:20.160 --> 0:40:23.480 folks who had been watching felt that way as well. UM. 0:40:23.520 --> 0:40:25.399 I actually took part in this thing called bloomberg Ville, 0:40:25.480 --> 0:40:29.239 which was like, yeah, fifty people on a sidewalk. Um 0:40:29.440 --> 0:40:32.360 was quite from Michael Bloomberg, right, Um, fifty people on 0:40:32.360 --> 0:40:35.000 a sidewalk fifty people was general. I was like, when 0:40:35.000 --> 0:40:37.600 we were doing really well and mostly fifteen of us, 0:40:37.480 --> 0:40:39.680 It's like fifteen of us on a flidewalk um in 0:40:39.719 --> 0:40:42.800 the financial district, like getting yelled at by cops, um, 0:40:42.920 --> 0:40:45.440 you know, sleeping on cardboard, you know, occupy style, but 0:40:45.520 --> 0:40:50.759 without any attention or solidarity. Um. And but because I 0:40:50.800 --> 0:40:52.560 had been in Barcelona and I still have these carbrads 0:40:52.600 --> 0:40:53.960 in Barcelona, I was like, oh my god, we're doing 0:40:54.000 --> 0:40:55.919 it in New York. So we had this thing where 0:40:56.000 --> 0:40:58.680 bloomberg Ville, which is like twenty people like got to 0:40:58.719 --> 0:41:00.960 talk to a general assembly in Barcelona at the height 0:41:01.000 --> 0:41:03.640 of its power, like on a like internet link, like 0:41:03.640 --> 0:41:07.360 a really early internet link, you know. Um, and you 0:41:07.400 --> 0:41:09.600 know so so so, so there was all this energy 0:41:09.800 --> 0:41:12.120 that was happening. And then I think, really crucially, the 0:41:12.160 --> 0:41:14.560 London riots pop off, and that doesn't get talked about 0:41:14.640 --> 0:41:17.799 very much and anymore partially because of the UK left 0:41:17.840 --> 0:41:21.040 really stabbed here's the bath during that and and and 0:41:21.160 --> 0:41:24.720 have and and repressed the memory of it largely, um, 0:41:24.760 --> 0:41:27.880 and have suffered ever since, in my opinion, strategically. UM. 0:41:27.960 --> 0:41:30.040 But you know that was for us in the US, 0:41:30.120 --> 0:41:33.600 that was huge. It was huge watching um, watching those 0:41:33.680 --> 0:41:36.320 riots unfold. Like you know, again, this was like early 0:41:36.360 --> 0:41:39.280 live streaming, so like we were like watching live feeds 0:41:39.280 --> 0:41:40.560 of the riots, you know, which is like it was 0:41:40.600 --> 0:41:42.160 not a thing that you could really do without a 0:41:42.160 --> 0:41:44.279 TV before. There was just like there was a lot 0:41:44.320 --> 0:41:47.520 of stuff going on that felt exciting and and it 0:41:47.560 --> 0:41:50.880 was and really important and inevitable that it would come 0:41:50.920 --> 0:41:52.920 to the US because things were so messed up over here. 0:41:53.560 --> 0:41:55.680 I think we should talk about what a general assembly 0:41:55.719 --> 0:41:57.840 actually is because I think a lot of people aren't 0:41:58.680 --> 0:42:01.160 you We're going to have like never actually ran into 0:42:01.200 --> 0:42:03.520 what exactly is going on, or have sort of forgotten 0:42:03.520 --> 0:42:05.680 in the last ten years after they sort of fallen 0:42:05.680 --> 0:42:09.279 out of favor. Sure, yeah, I mean it's UM. It 0:42:09.320 --> 0:42:12.000 was never my favorite either, honestly, but it's a it's 0:42:12.000 --> 0:42:15.640 a meeting style UM designed UM. It actually does largely 0:42:15.680 --> 0:42:20.279 actually come from from European anarchist traditions, UM from from 0:42:20.320 --> 0:42:23.000 Spain and Greece. But as as many of us know, UM, 0:42:23.040 --> 0:42:25.840 a lot of those traditions go back further UM and 0:42:25.920 --> 0:42:28.840 have crossed crossed the water general Somebody's actually there's a 0:42:28.840 --> 0:42:31.720 long history of them in indigenous communities in Turtle Island, 0:42:31.719 --> 0:42:34.799 for example. So it's an old meeting style UM in 0:42:34.840 --> 0:42:38.400 which UM, the Quakers also the Quakers UM famously also 0:42:38.600 --> 0:42:41.279 sort of uh sort of co opted it from from 0:42:41.440 --> 0:42:44.120 indigenous folks out here on the East coast. UM. But 0:42:44.440 --> 0:42:46.880 UM it's a meeting style in which, uh, you know, 0:42:46.880 --> 0:42:49.239 with the exception of a facilitator which is occasionally but 0:42:49.320 --> 0:42:54.080 not always present, UM, everyone is able to speak UM together. 0:42:54.520 --> 0:42:57.560 There is something, there's an agenda sometimes, but it's basically 0:42:57.560 --> 0:43:01.759 a meeting designed where everyone present in the meeting has 0:43:01.880 --> 0:43:06.000 like an equal voice and it's not really designed generally 0:43:06.080 --> 0:43:10.840 for UM decision making specifically or with like really specific 0:43:10.840 --> 0:43:13.640 goals in mind. Often although there will be sort of 0:43:13.680 --> 0:43:16.719 like things that are trying to get settled UM. But 0:43:16.840 --> 0:43:20.920 it's it's it's it's designed to allow, you know, a 0:43:21.040 --> 0:43:23.600 very very multi vocal approach and for everyone to sort 0:43:23.600 --> 0:43:26.680 of put in their their thoughts and their ideas UM. 0:43:26.800 --> 0:43:29.759 And often is connected, although not necessarily, but is often 0:43:29.800 --> 0:43:34.239 connected to consensus UM operation where UM things can't get 0:43:34.239 --> 0:43:37.040 sort of decided on unless everyone sort of agrees UM. 0:43:37.160 --> 0:43:41.400 And in occupy UM that was the general assembly was 0:43:41.640 --> 0:43:44.400 sort of UM was a bit controversial because it was 0:43:44.440 --> 0:43:48.040 just whoever showed up obviously participates in it. So, you know, 0:43:48.160 --> 0:43:51.080 unlike unlike you know, an organizational meeting where you you know, 0:43:51.160 --> 0:43:52.960 everyone knows each other and you have to have a 0:43:53.400 --> 0:43:55.720 you know, you have to be there with an invite 0:43:55.800 --> 0:43:59.600 or whatever. Um, you know, whatever cranky wing nut UM 0:43:59.640 --> 0:44:03.480 wanted to show up could um And that had pluses 0:44:03.480 --> 0:44:06.040 and minuses. It was charming sometimes, but it was also 0:44:06.160 --> 0:44:08.799 very frustrating. UM. And in in New York where I 0:44:08.960 --> 0:44:12.600 was UM, it was made almost impossible to function by 0:44:12.640 --> 0:44:15.880 this thing called the people's mike um oh, which I 0:44:15.880 --> 0:44:19.120 think still happens sometimes people even Mike check um and 0:44:19.120 --> 0:44:21.239 and then everyone repeats what was said. But that means 0:44:21.239 --> 0:44:23.920 that it takes four times as long to talk as normal. 0:44:24.200 --> 0:44:25.680 So when you have a wing nut, you know, like 0:44:25.719 --> 0:44:28.200 advocating for wrong Paul, and then you've got thirty people 0:44:28.239 --> 0:44:32.200 echoing him every four words, it makes it makes discussion 0:44:32.239 --> 0:44:35.880 completely impossible. And a microhistory of the People's mic. The 0:44:35.920 --> 0:44:38.800 reason that happened was because in the first week in 0:44:38.920 --> 0:44:42.040 Zukkati park Um, whenever we got on a megaphone, police 0:44:42.040 --> 0:44:44.040 would come and a rest whoever was on the megaphone 0:44:44.120 --> 0:44:46.560 because you weren't allowed to use amplified sound in New York. 0:44:46.920 --> 0:44:49.200 And one organizer was like, oh no, no, we can 0:44:49.239 --> 0:44:51.920 like use the people's mic. We can repeat back to 0:44:51.920 --> 0:44:53.440 each old And this is when we they're still mostly 0:44:53.480 --> 0:44:55.120 like thirty to forty people in the park at any 0:44:55.120 --> 0:44:58.040 one time. It's very small. That didn't feel so bad, 0:44:58.400 --> 0:45:01.200 but then when the movement really up big, the people's 0:45:01.239 --> 0:45:06.360 mike became completely unwieldy and also was a response to 0:45:06.640 --> 0:45:10.200 a was a cowardly response to police repression frankly um, 0:45:10.239 --> 0:45:12.880 and was a way of So the people's mic is is, 0:45:12.960 --> 0:45:16.080 in my opinion, reactionary form anyway, that is hit. So 0:45:16.440 --> 0:45:18.120 it's been ten years. I haven't been able to complain 0:45:18.160 --> 0:45:19.799 about this in like eight years, Thank you so much, 0:45:20.040 --> 0:45:22.520 UM anyway, So yeah, the general Assembly is just a 0:45:22.520 --> 0:45:26.120 meeting form um that often often associated with anarchy, anarchist 0:45:26.160 --> 0:45:29.120 practice or radical democratic practice um in which sort of 0:45:29.160 --> 0:45:31.759 consensus is aimed for by allowing everyone to speak there 0:45:31.800 --> 0:45:34.400 much I would say, yeah, So this, this I think 0:45:34.440 --> 0:45:37.160 gets us back to where we open this episode, which 0:45:37.239 --> 0:45:42.720 is add Busters calls an event with literally no plans 0:45:42.800 --> 0:45:45.719 to like do anything. They're just like, yeah, everyone, we're 0:45:45.719 --> 0:45:49.560 occupied in Wall Street. And then yeah, and you know, 0:45:49.600 --> 0:45:52.080 as it's talking about the beginning of it, you guys 0:45:52.120 --> 0:45:59.880 basically hijack well sort of, I mean, so Adbusters. Adbusters 0:46:00.000 --> 0:46:02.239 doesn't show up, like you said, there's I've never met 0:46:02.280 --> 0:46:05.279 an Adbusters person, um, And it was funny, like we 0:46:05.320 --> 0:46:07.000 would do jokes about it. But I think it's also 0:46:07.280 --> 0:46:09.480 thinking about this in preparation for this interview. It's also 0:46:09.520 --> 0:46:12.920 interesting because Adbusters in their culture jamming is kind of 0:46:12.960 --> 0:46:15.160 like one of the results of the sort of altar 0:46:15.200 --> 0:46:18.280 globalization movement of the like late nineties and early two thousands, 0:46:18.320 --> 0:46:20.840 the summit hopping stuff, um, the energy movement of like 0:46:20.880 --> 0:46:23.880 one generation ahead of occupy UM. So I think it's 0:46:23.880 --> 0:46:26.520 sort of appropriate that Adbusters sort of like you know, 0:46:27.520 --> 0:46:29.560 was present in this legacy in a certain way, and 0:46:29.600 --> 0:46:31.319 a lot of those organizers were as well. But yes, 0:46:31.600 --> 0:46:34.279 I'm sorry, I did I just jump in for you. No, no, no, 0:46:34.280 --> 0:46:38.880 it's okay. UM. The yeah, so so so so a 0:46:38.960 --> 0:46:41.279 bunch of people I don't actually know who calls for 0:46:41.320 --> 0:46:44.080 an August second, you know, general assembly to talk about 0:46:44.080 --> 0:46:47.840 the call for September seventeenth to occupy Wall Street UM 0:46:47.960 --> 0:46:50.600 and at that at that point, that's when the thing 0:46:50.640 --> 0:46:54.319 I was describing earlier like happens where where UM, you know, 0:46:54.400 --> 0:46:56.520 we a bunch of folks and and I really want 0:46:56.520 --> 0:46:58.400 to underline this, most of them were people who had 0:46:58.440 --> 0:47:01.520 been in Spain or Greece. UM. David Graeber was also, 0:47:01.560 --> 0:47:03.080 There was like a lot of old heads. There was 0:47:03.120 --> 0:47:05.600 like a there was a comrade from Japan. UM. It 0:47:05.680 --> 0:47:08.880 was a very international crew who had like had experience 0:47:08.920 --> 0:47:11.960 in these movements. Over the summer, UM came and had 0:47:11.960 --> 0:47:14.160 this general Assembly and sort of ran it that way 0:47:14.200 --> 0:47:16.440 and broke out. We had we broke off working groups 0:47:16.760 --> 0:47:19.040 and then there was meetings sort of once a week 0:47:19.080 --> 0:47:21.480 and then working group needs within that UM and general 0:47:21.480 --> 0:47:25.279 assemblies from August two until September seventeenth, at which point, UM, 0:47:25.320 --> 0:47:27.640 you know, occupy the date, the date that Adbusters had 0:47:27.680 --> 0:47:30.560 called for actually happened. So my my impression of this, 0:47:30.640 --> 0:47:33.680 and I was I was very small. I had very 0:47:33.719 --> 0:47:36.120 limited idea of what was going on. The way I 0:47:36.160 --> 0:47:41.120 remember in the media is that like the there, the 0:47:41.160 --> 0:47:44.440 media was weirdly interested in it in a way that 0:47:44.480 --> 0:47:48.160 I've never seen them. I've never seen them cover another 0:47:48.200 --> 0:47:51.120 social movement that wasn't like literally burning their offices down, 0:47:51.960 --> 0:47:53.360 and it was like it was like in the beginning 0:47:53.400 --> 0:47:55.480 it was I mean, you know, obviously the right wing 0:47:55.480 --> 0:47:59.359 media is losing their minds, but they were kind of 0:48:00.840 --> 0:48:04.000 kind of supportive of it, and I think, I don't know, 0:48:04.000 --> 0:48:05.600 I always say you think about this. One of the 0:48:05.640 --> 0:48:08.040 things that that happens in both in both Greece and 0:48:08.360 --> 0:48:12.280 in Spain is that the product movement of the squares 0:48:12.360 --> 0:48:14.640 is these electoral movements, and these electoral movements just fail 0:48:14.840 --> 0:48:18.879 like catastrophically, like Starsia takes power, like like the they 0:48:18.960 --> 0:48:20.400 like you, they they have they have they have a 0:48:21.120 --> 0:48:24.200 like their their finance minister is a left communist. He's 0:48:24.280 --> 0:48:26.520 like he is the most fire left person ever like 0:48:26.560 --> 0:48:29.920 to hold office since like the Spanish anarchists in ninety 0:48:29.960 --> 0:48:33.359 six and they employed austerity. Anyways, in Spain you get 0:48:33.360 --> 0:48:35.560 put demos and it's like, wow, okay, you have you know, 0:48:35.560 --> 0:48:37.200 they had this thing called the electoral war machine. They're 0:48:37.320 --> 0:48:39.000 they're gonna take over the Spantish but because something they 0:48:39.080 --> 0:48:40.919 just it collapsed. It just doesn't work. They've they've never 0:48:41.440 --> 0:48:43.799 like they've they've they've they've never taken power they've never 0:48:44.719 --> 0:48:47.719 really got anywhere. They they successfully evicted a bunch of 0:48:47.719 --> 0:48:52.680 squats in Catalonia. But yeah, but and I think this 0:48:52.800 --> 0:48:54.319 is my impression of it, was that I think the 0:48:54.400 --> 0:48:56.080 US media thought they could they could do this to 0:48:56.120 --> 0:49:00.640 occupy and and I think they kind it. It's weird 0:49:00.640 --> 0:49:02.880 because looking so you know, like I I come in 0:49:02.880 --> 0:49:06.840 and like to to this kind of stuff from autun seventeen, 0:49:06.840 --> 0:49:09.560 and I think it it's like it weirdly worked. But 0:49:09.600 --> 0:49:11.239 it worked because they were able to create the anti 0:49:11.280 --> 0:49:14.120 occupy people. Yeah, so it's like yeah, and so they 0:49:14.840 --> 0:49:18.160 did finally get their like cadre of like pseudo left 0:49:18.239 --> 0:49:20.239 organizers so they could used to build Democratic Party. It's 0:49:20.280 --> 0:49:23.040 just it was like Jocobin and then I'll think the whole, 0:49:23.080 --> 0:49:27.120 the whole sort of anti occupy group. Yeah, so those 0:49:27.160 --> 0:49:31.480 folks were actually UM active during Occupy UM critiquing the 0:49:31.800 --> 0:49:35.000 people who now most loudly UM claim the legacy of 0:49:35.040 --> 0:49:37.200 Occupy UM. You know, as you said, Jacobin, a lot 0:49:37.200 --> 0:49:40.160 of those sort of social democratic groups UM at the time, 0:49:40.520 --> 0:49:42.480 UM and those of us who were there, remember they 0:49:42.520 --> 0:49:44.879 hated Occupy. They would show up, but they like would 0:49:44.880 --> 0:49:47.359 critique it constantly. They would write all these articles about 0:49:47.360 --> 0:49:49.480 how it was terrible, how there were no demands, it 0:49:49.520 --> 0:49:52.239 was too disorganized, And then I think, you know, when 0:49:52.280 --> 0:49:54.560 Black Revolt got put on the table, they were like, 0:49:54.560 --> 0:49:57.560 bring back Occupy, we like that better. But but I 0:49:57.560 --> 0:50:00.279 think to be as harsh as possible, but um, I 0:50:00.320 --> 0:50:03.160 think like, um, you know, yes, there was there was 0:50:03.200 --> 0:50:06.240 a lot of media coverage. It didn't feel super friendly 0:50:06.280 --> 0:50:09.040 at the time. Um, there was a lot of there 0:50:09.080 --> 0:50:10.600 was a lot of media coverage, Like the media was 0:50:10.680 --> 0:50:13.279 very curious, it was very interested, but a lot of 0:50:13.280 --> 0:50:15.640 that coverage was like why do they have no demands? 0:50:15.719 --> 0:50:19.080 Like why are they so disorganized? Why are they so smelly? Whatever? 0:50:19.400 --> 0:50:20.600 Like there was a lot of like there was a 0:50:20.600 --> 0:50:22.239 lot of slander in the press, but also a lot 0:50:22.239 --> 0:50:25.160 of attention, um, which you know, it turned turned out 0:50:25.200 --> 0:50:26.600 was as good as you could get, but at the 0:50:26.640 --> 0:50:30.000 time didn't didn't feel very good. Particularly, I think, yeah, 0:50:30.320 --> 0:50:33.200 but yes, those those forces, those forces were already present 0:50:33.719 --> 0:50:39.080 um in you know, in in occupy itself, um, you know, 0:50:39.400 --> 0:50:43.080 sort of denouncing it um for its disorganization, um and 0:50:43.080 --> 0:50:45.040 then eventually claiming that it was the reason that Bernie 0:50:45.080 --> 0:50:48.680 Sanders happened, um, which isn't totally wrong. Yeah, I want 0:50:48.680 --> 0:50:50.879 to be really clear, like I think, and I think 0:50:50.880 --> 0:50:52.440 what we'll get into this more. But I think like 0:50:52.960 --> 0:50:55.040 the thing that about the thing that was important about 0:50:55.080 --> 0:50:57.280 Occupy and the thing that the people who in my opinion, 0:50:57.800 --> 0:51:00.440 like my comrades during Occupy or people I who were 0:51:00.480 --> 0:51:02.759 like doing Occupy stuff but like who I didn't know, 0:51:02.840 --> 0:51:05.560 but like now we I you know, I roll with them. 0:51:05.719 --> 0:51:08.200 Most of us have the have the you know, the analysis, 0:51:08.280 --> 0:51:10.400 like it was really important that we were doing politics 0:51:10.440 --> 0:51:12.520 in the street. It was really important that we were 0:51:12.560 --> 0:51:15.160 back together they were talking politics. And then there were 0:51:15.200 --> 0:51:18.000 really really intense, extreme limits to what Occupy could have done. 0:51:18.560 --> 0:51:21.279 Um and I think Oakland really pushed those um and 0:51:21.280 --> 0:51:23.960 and you know, and got to those but um and 0:51:24.000 --> 0:51:25.640 I think the folks who are like no, no no, Occupy 0:51:25.760 --> 0:51:28.600 was good at the time, we're like Occupy is terrible. 0:51:28.920 --> 0:51:31.360 Um And I think that's worth notice, noting and thinking about. 0:51:33.280 --> 0:51:35.840 So I think, yeah, before we sort of go into 0:51:36.239 --> 0:51:38.240 talk a bit about what happened Oakland, to talk about 0:51:38.320 --> 0:51:40.600 some of their stuff so on on day to day basis, 0:51:40.640 --> 0:51:43.839 like what is occupy actually doing? Because I think that's 0:51:43.880 --> 0:51:47.360 also been sort of lost in this whole, Like everyone 0:51:47.400 --> 0:51:49.719 remembers like the slogans, and every remembers the fact that 0:51:49.760 --> 0:51:51.319 there's a thing, but you know, like that there's there's 0:51:51.320 --> 0:51:53.279 a bunch of working groups and they're doing things like 0:51:53.360 --> 0:51:56.200 what was that like like day to day and then 0:51:56.200 --> 0:51:58.560 on a sort of brought our little yeah so so 0:51:58.760 --> 0:52:00.520 um So, first of all, again I was only in 0:52:00.520 --> 0:52:03.200 New York. I spent some time at occupied Boston as well. UM, 0:52:03.200 --> 0:52:04.759 but like I don't have a sense of what other 0:52:04.800 --> 0:52:06.799 places were like, so I really can't, I mean other 0:52:06.800 --> 0:52:08.920 than having heard from people, So I want to be 0:52:09.000 --> 0:52:11.640 very clear that I'm like mostly addressing that. UM. I 0:52:11.680 --> 0:52:14.319 think the thing that was going on was that Zuccatti Park, 0:52:14.440 --> 0:52:17.719 Like the park was like total chaos. UM. Part of 0:52:17.719 --> 0:52:20.280 that was because there was a drum circle that basically 0:52:20.360 --> 0:52:23.520 was going twenty four hours a day um there, which 0:52:23.560 --> 0:52:25.520 meant that whenever you were down there, and it was 0:52:25.560 --> 0:52:28.440 like a canyon. Zacotti Park is surrounded by skyscrapers, so 0:52:28.560 --> 0:52:32.520 it was just this incredible cacophony all the time, UM, 0:52:32.560 --> 0:52:35.200 which I think was cool. It really ruined a lot 0:52:35.200 --> 0:52:40.480 of finance bros, like like like orally with an a 0:52:40.600 --> 0:52:43.319 there um. But I think like, but it also was 0:52:43.400 --> 0:52:46.480 pretty intense and unpleasant. Sometimes you were like please stop, 0:52:46.520 --> 0:52:49.120 oh my god, like that's at one point in general assembly, 0:52:49.160 --> 0:52:51.600 I think decided that drums were like only acceptable during 0:52:51.600 --> 0:52:53.440 certain hours, like near the end of the movement, like 0:52:53.440 --> 0:52:55.799 the drums the drum circle got reproached, when in fact 0:52:56.000 --> 0:52:58.759 they were like actually the biggest agents of chaos in 0:52:58.840 --> 0:53:03.959 Zuccati parks that which is another important lesson. But um, yeah, 0:53:04.000 --> 0:53:06.680 I think so. So, you know. Also, because I had 0:53:06.680 --> 0:53:09.160 been in bloomberg Ville, because I've been in Barcelona, I 0:53:09.200 --> 0:53:12.839 didn't invest myself very heavily in camp management stuff, so 0:53:12.920 --> 0:53:15.839 I mostly was doing um work. One of the things 0:53:15.880 --> 0:53:18.160 that I think it's forgotten about is that there were 0:53:18.239 --> 0:53:23.040 snake marches basically three or four a day every day 0:53:23.200 --> 0:53:25.520 after after the first week when we were really small, 0:53:25.520 --> 0:53:28.880 when it got big, they were just constant, constant marches 0:53:28.920 --> 0:53:31.560 through the city, just like always going off, like you 0:53:31.560 --> 0:53:33.560 would run and you'd be on one march, you run 0:53:33.600 --> 0:53:35.719 into another march, like on a Saturday or Sunday, when 0:53:35.719 --> 0:53:38.200 like people were really like out there like it was 0:53:38.360 --> 0:53:40.240 it was really like there was a lot of mayhem. 0:53:40.280 --> 0:53:43.400 There would be big planned marches that would then be bigger. Um. 0:53:43.400 --> 0:53:46.200 So there was like a lot of like um, what 0:53:46.280 --> 0:53:49.120 people now would call direct action, when I would call 0:53:49.239 --> 0:53:54.200 largely like sort of symbolic practice for direct action. Mostly, UM, 0:53:54.239 --> 0:53:56.480 I don't mind, I like marches. I certainly got my 0:53:56.520 --> 0:53:58.319 miles in then like I don't feel like I need 0:53:58.360 --> 0:54:00.920 to do that again. But but you know, so then 0:54:00.960 --> 0:54:04.080 at the camp people were just living there. There were 0:54:04.080 --> 0:54:05.879 a lot of like a lot of punks, a lot 0:54:05.880 --> 0:54:07.560 of like you know, a lot of homeless folks obviously, 0:54:07.640 --> 0:54:10.040 and some and some encampments had more at a higher 0:54:10.040 --> 0:54:13.400 concentration about house people. Some in New York because of 0:54:13.480 --> 0:54:15.799 all the media spectacle and all the money that came in. 0:54:16.120 --> 0:54:18.200 We had a lot of nonprofit grifters by the end 0:54:18.600 --> 0:54:21.879 in the encampment. But there's also like a library, um, 0:54:21.880 --> 0:54:23.759 a free library with all these books that like would 0:54:23.800 --> 0:54:26.000 be donated. Um, there's a lot of like you know, 0:54:26.040 --> 0:54:30.719 political agitation. There were people standing around them the you 0:54:30.760 --> 0:54:32.480 know the corners of the park, you know, with with 0:54:32.560 --> 0:54:35.640 signs and you're yelling at people. And it's also important 0:54:35.640 --> 0:54:38.360 to remember that like Zuccati Park in New York is tiny, 0:54:38.719 --> 0:54:40.759 it's tiny. We had originally wanted to do it on 0:54:40.880 --> 0:54:44.680 this big plaza like City Bank plaza. Um, and the 0:54:44.719 --> 0:54:46.319 cops had heard about that and fence it off. So 0:54:46.360 --> 0:54:49.759 on the seventeenth we just like we just, um, what's 0:54:49.800 --> 0:54:52.279 the word we get? We we did a oh my 0:54:52.320 --> 0:54:56.440 god football metaphors. This we called an audible thank you. 0:54:56.920 --> 0:54:59.040 So we said, Zuccatti is this tiny little park. It's 0:54:59.040 --> 0:55:01.840 incredibly dense and it's surrounded by you know, like I 0:55:01.840 --> 0:55:03.880 said that skyscrapers. It's in this really weird part of 0:55:03.920 --> 0:55:05.480 the city that no one would ever spend any time 0:55:05.480 --> 0:55:09.000 and if they didn't have to otherwise. Um. So that's 0:55:09.000 --> 0:55:10.680 sort of So there's all this stuff going on, and 0:55:10.719 --> 0:55:13.759 they're all these their general assemblies twice a day, um, which, 0:55:13.800 --> 0:55:17.080 as I said in New York, were particularly unhelpful. UM. 0:55:17.280 --> 0:55:18.759 But I think anarchists and a lot of cities who 0:55:18.800 --> 0:55:20.080 have talked to you, like I had a comrade down 0:55:20.080 --> 0:55:22.839 in DC one in Denver, they sort of said that 0:55:23.000 --> 0:55:26.680 the general assemblies either quickly like got shifted or got 0:55:26.840 --> 0:55:29.000 or became irrelevant. UM. I think the general ssemblies were 0:55:29.000 --> 0:55:31.800 not We're not in the end where we're symbolically important 0:55:31.880 --> 0:55:35.600 but not but not really driving force UM of my 0:55:35.680 --> 0:55:37.680 experience UM. And then there would be there would be, 0:55:37.719 --> 0:55:39.320 like I said, there'd be a lot of organizing outside 0:55:39.360 --> 0:55:41.200 of the park. There'd be a lot of like meetings 0:55:41.320 --> 0:55:46.720 and you know, talks and UM direct actions and marches, UM. 0:55:46.800 --> 0:55:50.840 And then there would be you know, uh, I guess 0:55:50.840 --> 0:55:52.560 that's kind of the extent of it, right, is that 0:55:52.600 --> 0:55:54.560 there was like a lot of direct action that but 0:55:54.560 --> 0:55:56.680 there was always this park where you could go and 0:55:56.719 --> 0:55:58.760 like run into people and like hook up with people, 0:55:59.080 --> 0:56:01.319 meet people and like do a weird thing. And I 0:56:01.360 --> 0:56:03.560 think that was really like the heart of the movement 0:56:03.600 --> 0:56:06.040 was the fact that there was this place you could 0:56:06.040 --> 0:56:09.239 go meet someone and like link into something weird and 0:56:09.320 --> 0:56:11.400 maybe cool and maybe not it doesn't matter, but like 0:56:11.560 --> 0:56:13.160 there was always something to do kind of and it 0:56:13.200 --> 0:56:15.680 was constant, was like this our twenty four hour right 0:56:15.760 --> 0:56:19.200 like experience. And I think that was really what UM, 0:56:19.239 --> 0:56:21.800 what separated it from from other from other movement waves 0:56:21.800 --> 0:56:24.760 that we've had, we've had since UM and was was 0:56:24.760 --> 0:56:28.879 was probably I think it's greatest strength in many ways. Yeah, 0:56:28.960 --> 0:56:31.160 I think that that was That was the impression that 0:56:31.200 --> 0:56:35.080 I got. And part of us also was when I 0:56:35.120 --> 0:56:37.960 when I was in college, like every once in a 0:56:37.960 --> 0:56:42.520 while you just get assigned like some person writing but occupy, 0:56:42.680 --> 0:56:44.320 and it was like most of them were just extremely 0:56:44.320 --> 0:56:47.759 cranky about the whole thing. But sure, you know, one 0:56:47.760 --> 0:56:49.840 of one of the things I think was interesting about 0:56:49.840 --> 0:56:54.160 it is that everyone seemed to engree, at least to 0:56:54.239 --> 0:56:56.239 some extent, that part of what was going on was 0:56:56.360 --> 0:57:00.239 that it's it's it's this way to do I don't 0:57:00.239 --> 0:57:02.000 know if I did any new formation is quite the 0:57:02.120 --> 0:57:03.840 right word for it, but it's it's this way to 0:57:03.920 --> 0:57:09.840 sort of like rebuild social connections and rebuild like social 0:57:09.960 --> 0:57:12.680 sort of bonds in a way that just had you know, 0:57:13.160 --> 0:57:17.760 as public space becomes just the cops. And like there's 0:57:17.760 --> 0:57:20.040 there's a table in Chinatown that I like call the 0:57:20.080 --> 0:57:22.280 Cops table, and I'm really mad about that, like because 0:57:22.320 --> 0:57:23.800 this is Chicago, Chinatown and I would like go there 0:57:23.840 --> 0:57:26.320 star in front the library, and there's a sign sign 0:57:26.440 --> 0:57:29.240 on the table that says, if you loiter at this table, 0:57:29.280 --> 0:57:32.200 you will be arrested. It's like this is a picnic table, 0:57:32.760 --> 0:57:35.680 Like the cops are you? This table is threatening that 0:57:35.760 --> 0:57:37.720 it is going to arrest you if you use it 0:57:37.760 --> 0:57:39.280 for what's using you know, for what you're supposed to 0:57:39.320 --> 0:57:42.840 use tables for. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, And I think 0:57:42.840 --> 0:57:45.080 I think that's right. I think like it was, you know, 0:57:45.160 --> 0:57:47.640 there was a lot of UM at the time. A 0:57:47.640 --> 0:57:51.000 lot of people were talking about UM embarrassingly about Heart 0:57:51.000 --> 0:57:54.320 and negre is sort of like multitude stuff. Really, I 0:57:54.320 --> 0:57:56.920 really a much better book that was important was also UM, 0:57:57.000 --> 0:57:59.920 David Graber's debt UM. But I think, like, you know, 0:58:00.000 --> 0:58:01.479 and there was like a lot of like people saying 0:58:01.520 --> 0:58:05.160 things about like the Agora you know, UM democracy list 0:58:05.200 --> 0:58:08.880 sort of political the political encounter space of encounter UM, 0:58:08.960 --> 0:58:11.200 and that stuff wasn't all wrong, Like I mean, I'm 0:58:11.280 --> 0:58:12.960 sort of being a little sarcastic with a lot of it, 0:58:13.000 --> 0:58:15.720 but like, but I think, like like there there was 0:58:15.760 --> 0:58:20.040 a lot of you know, UM. Part of how we 0:58:20.080 --> 0:58:23.400 should I think we should understand UM, the over discussed 0:58:23.480 --> 0:58:26.720 under under you know, like over analyzed word neoliberalism like 0:58:26.760 --> 0:58:28.920 has largely become meaningless. One of the things I should 0:58:29.080 --> 0:58:31.000 I think I think it's valuable for understanding is a 0:58:31.000 --> 0:58:34.960 process by which capitalism responded to the Long Sixties by 0:58:35.000 --> 0:58:39.120 disorganizing its production process such to the Long Sixties could 0:58:39.120 --> 0:58:42.280 never happen again, Right, So like like the four the 0:58:42.520 --> 0:58:47.040 control the like the concentration of workers within within production 0:58:47.080 --> 0:58:49.440 in such a way that they could be agitated by 0:58:49.480 --> 0:58:52.880 students and then like sort of radically unionized wildcat and 0:58:52.920 --> 0:58:55.880 sort of like almost overthrow a government, right, Like the 0:58:55.920 --> 0:58:58.560 neoliberalism is like you know it smashes the unions, yes, 0:58:58.680 --> 0:59:03.320 but it also all so like distributes out the active production, right, 0:59:03.320 --> 0:59:05.800 so that so that that's not so easily done. And 0:59:05.880 --> 0:59:09.200 I think one of the real problems of you know 0:59:09.240 --> 0:59:11.760 that was facing social movement, um, you know, in the 0:59:11.800 --> 0:59:13.680 in the period, you know, the the long period, like 0:59:13.760 --> 0:59:15.640 you know, you had stuff like in the US again 0:59:15.680 --> 0:59:17.360 that is where you know the best. But like you know, 0:59:17.360 --> 0:59:19.720 you have the l A uprising which is huge, um, 0:59:19.760 --> 0:59:22.360 and you have you know the globe the summit hopping 0:59:22.400 --> 0:59:25.200 movement and anti globalization, which you know what could attack 0:59:25.240 --> 0:59:27.720 a target. But there wasn't really a sense of like 0:59:27.760 --> 0:59:31.920 how it felt hard to do a local struggle um 0:59:31.960 --> 0:59:36.520 beyond like literally like a revolutionary riot like l A, 0:59:36.600 --> 0:59:39.320 which you know you can't really precipitate um And you 0:59:39.360 --> 0:59:41.480 can't really precipitate a movement either obviously. But I think 0:59:41.520 --> 0:59:45.520 like but like but like uh a political political movement, 0:59:45.520 --> 0:59:48.320 a form of political organizing that didn't require something on 0:59:48.320 --> 0:59:49.960 the level of George Floyd, which is what the l 0:59:50.000 --> 0:59:54.320 A rebellion was, right, UM. But that also didn't require like, uh, 0:59:54.360 --> 0:59:57.280 an action from capital that you were like striking against, right, 0:59:57.320 --> 1:00:01.560 like the the you know, the Summits or whatever. UM. 1:00:01.800 --> 1:00:04.080 And that that again, and like all of these eras 1:00:04.080 --> 1:00:05.960 are very important. This is not to like you know, 1:00:06.000 --> 1:00:09.400 obviously like this is with with respect for those movements UM, 1:00:09.440 --> 1:00:11.680 but yeah, we felt I think it felt like we 1:00:11.680 --> 1:00:13.400 were in a political wilderness. And I think that that, 1:00:13.640 --> 1:00:17.880 like UM occupy really and the movement of the squares globally, 1:00:17.920 --> 1:00:21.680 I think UM really like demonstrated that it was possible 1:00:21.720 --> 1:00:26.360 to practice a kind of street politics even without UM 1:00:26.400 --> 1:00:29.040 you know, a shop floor where you can organize, even 1:00:29.080 --> 1:00:34.000 without UM, you know, a a capital p party to 1:00:34.120 --> 1:00:36.360 organize within UM. And I think that was really important. 1:00:36.360 --> 1:00:38.080 I think it also scared a lot of people who 1:00:38.200 --> 1:00:40.760 and and continues to who are committed to those politics 1:00:41.320 --> 1:00:44.920 UM and UM to the twenty century workers movement or 1:00:44.920 --> 1:00:47.400 the nineteenth and twenty century labor movement, which they somehow 1:00:47.400 --> 1:00:50.120 fantasize will come back UM if they just wish hard 1:00:50.200 --> 1:00:52.520 enough and write enough books or whatever. Um And I 1:00:52.560 --> 1:00:56.200 think like, um so, I think that was powerful. I 1:00:56.240 --> 1:00:59.240 also think like like yeah, sorry, we can move on 1:00:59.240 --> 1:01:00.760 to legacy later. But I think that was like I 1:01:00.760 --> 1:01:02.720 think that was very much like an important thing. Was 1:01:02.720 --> 1:01:07.040 was just like and you know, um, I graduated college 1:01:07.040 --> 1:01:09.680 in two thousand nine, um so I was like part 1:01:09.720 --> 1:01:12.160 of that millennial generation that like, you know, had gone 1:01:12.280 --> 1:01:15.400 into incredibly deep debt. Like we'd have a college degree 1:01:15.440 --> 1:01:17.280 and then like the bottom fill out of the economy 1:01:17.280 --> 1:01:19.520 there were no jobs. Um And Like I think there 1:01:19.560 --> 1:01:22.200 were a lot of you know, like people who like 1:01:22.280 --> 1:01:25.880 had anticipated a middle class life um of some kind. 1:01:26.200 --> 1:01:28.520 Not that I really had at that point, but whatever, like, 1:01:28.600 --> 1:01:30.240 but but a lot of people, like in my economic 1:01:30.280 --> 1:01:36.440 cohort like had um uh suddenly facing you know, proletarianization, right. 1:01:36.480 --> 1:01:38.840 And I think that was one of the strengths of 1:01:38.880 --> 1:01:40.240 the movement. I think that was that, you know, like 1:01:40.320 --> 1:01:43.120 I mentioned the statistics in great in Spain and Greece, Like, 1:01:43.320 --> 1:01:45.080 I think that was a global aspect of this kind 1:01:45.120 --> 1:01:49.080 of movement um uh arab spring to Like there was 1:01:49.160 --> 1:01:51.120 there was a lot of like that was really a 1:01:51.160 --> 1:01:54.720 response to the economic crisis. Obviously those folks were already 1:01:54.760 --> 1:01:56.920 more proletarian than the people who the young people and 1:01:57.120 --> 1:02:00.440 in the squares movements. UM. But they they innovated, They 1:02:00.480 --> 1:02:03.160 created the tactics in in Arab Spring right UM Terrer Square, 1:02:03.200 --> 1:02:07.600 most famously in Cairo. UM and UM. I think like 1:02:07.760 --> 1:02:12.760 those creating a meeting place where UM, you didn't require 1:02:13.080 --> 1:02:19.480 a preconstructed like political community UM in order to engage 1:02:19.960 --> 1:02:21.920 was a strength and a weakness UM. And I think 1:02:21.960 --> 1:02:24.440 it also, you know, as a result of the dynamics 1:02:24.440 --> 1:02:26.200 of the General Assembly, the dynamics of the sort of 1:02:26.320 --> 1:02:30.120 volunteerist nature of that what I'm describing UM, it led 1:02:30.160 --> 1:02:32.840 to a lot of people who were already confident, who 1:02:32.840 --> 1:02:35.200 are already feeling good, being able to like take more 1:02:35.240 --> 1:02:38.200 power right like UM. Uh. And I think it also 1:02:38.320 --> 1:02:40.560 was a very white movement UM. Certainly in New York, 1:02:40.600 --> 1:02:42.840 but but I think, I think across the country, UM, 1:02:42.880 --> 1:02:44.960 it was largely it was largely you know, it was 1:02:45.080 --> 1:02:48.720 it was majority white in a way that you know, 1:02:48.720 --> 1:02:51.080 by higher percentages than any movement that we've really been 1:02:51.120 --> 1:02:54.080 part of since UM was UM. And that was obviously 1:02:54.080 --> 1:02:56.040 a limit UM for for reasons that will be obvious 1:02:56.080 --> 1:02:58.240 to everyone, including the idea that like a lot of 1:02:58.280 --> 1:03:03.200 people pushed that like the police are part of the right. Okay, 1:03:03.200 --> 1:03:05.520 so let's let's let's talk about the police, because you know, 1:03:06.640 --> 1:03:08.080 like that's you know, that's that's one of the other 1:03:08.120 --> 1:03:12.280 extremely important aspects of this is this immense militarization. I mean, okay, 1:03:12.280 --> 1:03:15.640 so I think that the militarization of the police as 1:03:15.680 --> 1:03:20.760 a phrase, I think it's somewhat misleading in that like 1:03:21.960 --> 1:03:25.880 the cops have always like shot people. Yeah, but you know, 1:03:26.880 --> 1:03:29.360 there there's yeah, there, there's there's there's still like there's 1:03:29.360 --> 1:03:31.800 an intense sort of ramp up of the prison sector. 1:03:31.960 --> 1:03:36.040 There's you have this intense boom in the size of prisons. 1:03:36.080 --> 1:03:39.120 You have, yeah, you have you have increasing parts of 1:03:39.120 --> 1:03:42.200 the economy that are just the entire towns that used 1:03:42.200 --> 1:03:43.680 to be sort of manufacturing sectors, you used to be 1:03:43.760 --> 1:03:47.400 sort of involved in sort of industrial production that are 1:03:47.440 --> 1:03:49.840 just like the economy is now just there's a prison 1:03:49.920 --> 1:03:54.160 there and right. And I think this is also looking back, 1:03:54.200 --> 1:03:55.880 one of the things that looked like occupy kind of 1:03:55.920 --> 1:03:59.320 ran ran up into because you know, occupies this attempt 1:03:59.400 --> 1:04:03.120 to like you know, form a democratic space and it 1:04:03.560 --> 1:04:07.400 relies crucially on this this thing that is nominally in 1:04:07.600 --> 1:04:10.480 the Constitution but doesn't exist, which is the like the 1:04:10.560 --> 1:04:11.960 right to freedom of speech and the right to freedom 1:04:11.960 --> 1:04:14.560 of assembly and freedom assembly like that is that is 1:04:14.880 --> 1:04:17.200 like that is bullshit. It does not exist. If you like, 1:04:17.200 --> 1:04:20.280 if you actually believe that this exists, like, try getting 1:04:20.320 --> 1:04:23.000 like seventy people into a space and see how like 1:04:23.160 --> 1:04:24.640 just like I don't know, like into a street or 1:04:24.640 --> 1:04:26.240 just just like into into like have one people on 1:04:26.360 --> 1:04:28.240 a park and just like see how fast the cops 1:04:28.240 --> 1:04:30.959 show up, because you know, it's like yeah, the first 1:04:31.000 --> 1:04:33.480 time yeah that I was, I was at any kind 1:04:33.520 --> 1:04:39.880 of protests, cops immediately wanted to take anything I was holding. 1:04:40.600 --> 1:04:42.920 You're not you're not allowed to. The first thing if 1:04:43.000 --> 1:04:45.840 if if if you have anything in your hands, that's 1:04:46.240 --> 1:04:48.840 that that is a that is a problem. Yeah, it's 1:04:48.880 --> 1:04:51.040 like the First Amendment is just it's super completely superseded 1:04:51.080 --> 1:04:54.440 by traffic laws, like laws about like sidewalk maintenance, like no, 1:04:54.560 --> 1:04:56.760 it's it's all fair like none if it like you're 1:04:56.760 --> 1:04:58.000 you're not you're not allowed to. And this is this 1:04:58.000 --> 1:04:59.440 is I think is partially what this is kind of 1:04:59.440 --> 1:05:01.480 a talk about this parts I think why there's so 1:05:01.560 --> 1:05:03.479 much focused on the right about the first minute because 1:05:03.480 --> 1:05:05.520 they want to they want to draw attention away from 1:05:05.520 --> 1:05:08.040 the fact that, like the actual thing that's fake about 1:05:08.080 --> 1:05:11.040 it is that you can't gather people and meet anywhere, 1:05:11.040 --> 1:05:13.280 and they want to draw it into these like inane 1:05:13.520 --> 1:05:15.680 like this professor like said the N word a bunch 1:05:15.680 --> 1:05:17.720 of times in class. Isn't it bad that people are 1:05:17.840 --> 1:05:20.680 mad at them? But but if I think also go 1:05:21.000 --> 1:05:24.040 to time, this sort of back to occupy, you know. Okay, So, 1:05:24.040 --> 1:05:30.560 so occupy functions right insofar as there is a a 1:05:30.680 --> 1:05:33.720 physical location where people can go and physically interact with 1:05:33.720 --> 1:05:37.840 each other. And that's a problem because at some point 1:05:37.880 --> 1:05:42.360 the police are just like no, and they start clearing 1:05:42.360 --> 1:05:43.920 the encampments. And I think this is this is the 1:05:43.920 --> 1:05:47.720 other thing that occupy is that outside of like parts 1:05:47.720 --> 1:05:51.720 of Oakland and that that's a whole other thing that Yeah, 1:05:51.800 --> 1:05:56.240 but it's it's it's incredibly studiously non violent in a 1:05:56.320 --> 1:06:03.720 way that like nothing I've ever seen before since is yeah. So, 1:06:03.720 --> 1:06:05.680 so so there's a lot there. I'm gonna I want 1:06:05.720 --> 1:06:07.640 to talk about it because that's there's a lot um 1:06:07.680 --> 1:06:09.320 But yeah, so I think I think the militarization of 1:06:09.320 --> 1:06:13.000 the police thesis um is is incomplete if you don't 1:06:13.120 --> 1:06:16.120 also talk about the policification of the military, right, so, 1:06:16.160 --> 1:06:18.640 like part of what happens with with the great expansion 1:06:18.720 --> 1:06:22.720 of them of the carstral state. Part of that is 1:06:22.760 --> 1:06:26.480 also a response to the Vietnam War um and and 1:06:27.080 --> 1:06:29.560 mass resistance within you know, the troops they were like 1:06:29.600 --> 1:06:31.280 in the Vietnam the in like the last two years 1:06:31.280 --> 1:06:34.080 when ground troops are there in Vietnam, there's like four 1:06:34.440 --> 1:06:37.320 hundred fragging incidents where where um you know, where where 1:06:37.360 --> 1:06:41.240 privates and recruits killed their officers. The U. S. Army 1:06:41.520 --> 1:06:44.480 during the during Vietnam was on the brink of of 1:06:44.520 --> 1:06:47.800 collapse in the way that like like the Russian Army 1:06:47.840 --> 1:06:50.680 was looking in it was like like like the numbers 1:06:50.760 --> 1:06:52.120 I think I think still number one point. There was 1:06:52.120 --> 1:06:54.240 like forty of the army by the end of Vietnam 1:06:54.360 --> 1:06:58.000 was either on strike or just like not following orders. Yeah, no, 1:06:58.120 --> 1:07:00.120 it was. It was complete. There was the re in 1:07:00.200 --> 1:07:02.880 the that Nixon pursues vietnamalization, which is when they just 1:07:02.880 --> 1:07:06.000 start doing air campaigns, bombing and napalm is because they 1:07:06.000 --> 1:07:08.560 couldn't rely on ground troops anymore. They just they were useless. 1:07:08.600 --> 1:07:10.439 They were all high. Um, you know the talk about 1:07:10.480 --> 1:07:11.680 you know, there's a lot of talking about like Heroin, 1:07:11.720 --> 1:07:12.800 but like that was actually kind of a form of 1:07:12.840 --> 1:07:15.680 resistance within the lines in a complicated way. Whatever. Okay, 1:07:15.680 --> 1:07:19.120 that's all very So the military realizes that it can't 1:07:19.160 --> 1:07:23.120 function as a mass military in the model that nation 1:07:23.200 --> 1:07:25.720 states have done since the Napoleonic Wars, right, which is 1:07:25.760 --> 1:07:28.480 like the mass you know, the mass recruitment of the 1:07:28.520 --> 1:07:31.800 citizen soldier. Um, that's sort of how war is fought 1:07:32.040 --> 1:07:35.320 between you know, eighteen ten and nineteen seventy. And then 1:07:35.360 --> 1:07:38.000 it becomes clear that that's not gonna work anymore because 1:07:38.240 --> 1:07:41.320 because the aims of the countries and the power of 1:07:41.400 --> 1:07:44.640 nationalism have become too abstracted. Fascism has done too much 1:07:44.720 --> 1:07:46.800 damage to that image. There's just like there's it doesn't 1:07:46.800 --> 1:07:49.480 really work anymore. So the military turns into a sort 1:07:49.480 --> 1:07:52.080 of what it always was also, which is like a 1:07:52.080 --> 1:07:54.439 colonial policing force. And so the police the military drift 1:07:54.600 --> 1:07:58.000 towards one another in form and function. Okay, So in 1:07:58.080 --> 1:08:01.040 occupy um, one of the acrohistories that I think it's 1:08:01.040 --> 1:08:03.919 forgotten is that like I mean, because because it took 1:08:03.920 --> 1:08:06.000 a week, and like, who remembers this week except for 1:08:06.080 --> 1:08:08.560 like weirdos like me who were there. Um is it 1:08:08.640 --> 1:08:10.439 like there was no one at Zuccatti in the first 1:08:10.560 --> 1:08:12.440 first week. And one of the big things that happened 1:08:12.520 --> 1:08:15.439 was these these these you know, young white girls got 1:08:15.480 --> 1:08:17.840 caught in a police net and pepper sprayed, and there 1:08:17.880 --> 1:08:19.599 was this video that went around with them getting pepper 1:08:19.600 --> 1:08:22.439 sprayed and screaming. Is particularly this this woman on her knees, 1:08:22.439 --> 1:08:25.080 you know, screaming with with tears and pepper sprayed going 1:08:25.120 --> 1:08:28.280 down her face, and that really outraged people because you know, 1:08:28.320 --> 1:08:30.439 they were you know, it was police depression and police violence. 1:08:30.760 --> 1:08:33.320 So in terms of the question of non violence, yes, um, 1:08:33.360 --> 1:08:35.200 there was a lot of non violence. It was a 1:08:35.240 --> 1:08:39.679 constant fight that took honestly took until the George Floyd 1:08:39.760 --> 1:08:43.160 uprising for the right outside to win. Frankly, but but 1:08:43.160 --> 1:08:46.400 but but during occupy there was you know, there was 1:08:46.439 --> 1:08:50.360 a lot of non violence nonsense, um, And I think 1:08:50.400 --> 1:08:53.120 like but but another thing that happened though was that 1:08:53.200 --> 1:08:55.639 like you know, like I said, people were marching every day. 1:08:55.680 --> 1:08:58.320 So even in New York, where I think the political 1:08:58.400 --> 1:09:00.800 height was kind of achieved. October first, when we took 1:09:00.840 --> 1:09:03.200 the Brooklyn Bridge. Um, I think I think New York 1:09:03.280 --> 1:09:06.519 never really like had a big moment again, Like it 1:09:06.560 --> 1:09:10.400 was largely sort of like smaller things after that. But um, 1:09:10.439 --> 1:09:12.360 but like and there was a mass arrest on the 1:09:12.400 --> 1:09:14.280 Brooklyn Bridge. We marched over the Brooklyn Bridge. The brookn 1:09:14.320 --> 1:09:16.960 Bridge got shut down. They arrested seven hundred of US. Um. 1:09:16.960 --> 1:09:19.240 It was the first big infrastructure shutdown that happened in 1:09:19.240 --> 1:09:20.760 the US since the l A Riots. It was it 1:09:20.800 --> 1:09:22.880 was a big deal at the time. Now it happened. 1:09:23.200 --> 1:09:25.080 Can I put a note doubt though, specifically for the 1:09:25.080 --> 1:09:28.400 Brooklyn Bridge if you're because people I've seen every every 1:09:28.400 --> 1:09:29.880 single time there's one of these movements, people try to 1:09:29.880 --> 1:09:32.639 take the Brooklyn Bridge and they all got arrested. It's like, 1:09:32.960 --> 1:09:36.000 can can you all, like please, I am begging you, 1:09:36.080 --> 1:09:37.720 if you're going to try to take a bridge, make 1:09:37.720 --> 1:09:40.000 sure you have a way out, Like, yeah, you have 1:09:40.120 --> 1:09:45.240 to hold one of the sites to get arrested. Yeah, yeah, exactly, 1:09:46.040 --> 1:09:49.040 you got a way out. A bridge is designed to 1:09:49.160 --> 1:09:53.240 not have a way out, exactly. Please please don't all 1:09:53.280 --> 1:09:57.960 get arrested. It's it's in fact bad and yeah, sorry exactly. 1:09:59.400 --> 1:10:01.559 I have seen it. Few people successed. We take bridges 1:10:01.600 --> 1:10:03.760 a few times, but that's because there was like three 1:10:03.800 --> 1:10:07.640 cop cars and like fifteen thousand people. If you have 1:10:07.840 --> 1:10:11.920 like a block with two hundred kids, you're not going 1:10:11.960 --> 1:10:27.960 to be able to hold the bridge. Yeah, welcome to 1:10:28.000 --> 1:10:30.639 it had happened. Here a podcast about a crumbling empire 1:10:30.680 --> 1:10:33.519 and planting seeds in the spaces between. Here's part two 1:10:33.560 --> 1:10:35.840 of our interview with Vicky Oustle while about the legacy 1:10:35.880 --> 1:10:38.640 of Occupy Wall Street. But but you know, like you 1:10:38.640 --> 1:10:40.200 were saying, you know, like that that you know, don't 1:10:40.240 --> 1:10:42.639 get arrested, it's bad. So I think when occupy really started, 1:10:43.120 --> 1:10:46.040 you know, we were mostly people who had been educated 1:10:46.040 --> 1:10:48.760 by the co optation of the civil rights movement, which 1:10:48.800 --> 1:10:50.479 is that it was all non violent and that the 1:10:50.479 --> 1:10:52.800 whole thing was getting arrested and Martin Luther King was 1:10:52.840 --> 1:10:54.479 like the only voice that made any sense, and that 1:10:54.520 --> 1:10:56.439 was what was affective. Blah blah blah blah blah. Um. 1:10:56.439 --> 1:10:58.000 We had all learned that in school, right, we had 1:10:58.040 --> 1:10:59.600 all been trained that like non violence was like the 1:10:59.640 --> 1:11:01.880 only thing that made sense and that worked. Um. And 1:11:01.920 --> 1:11:03.920 I think like those of us who learned about it 1:11:03.960 --> 1:11:06.160 at all in school, which is certainly not everyone. But 1:11:06.280 --> 1:11:10.880 like I think, like like the the experience of occupy 1:11:10.920 --> 1:11:13.680 of like every day just getting beat up by the 1:11:13.680 --> 1:11:18.000 cops every day, like getting attacked, getting arrested. Some people 1:11:18.160 --> 1:11:22.760 got really some people got really nihilistically nonviolent, Like some 1:11:22.760 --> 1:11:25.760 people like really dug in and they're like like like 1:11:25.800 --> 1:11:28.120 we're like no, like there is nothing we can do 1:11:28.200 --> 1:11:30.639 except be beaten and turn of this like real masochistic game. 1:11:31.080 --> 1:11:35.559 But that happens. That still happens all the time. Oh yeah, yeah, 1:11:35.560 --> 1:11:38.040 that's that's one. That's one common response. But another thing 1:11:38.040 --> 1:11:41.280 that happened was that people started breaking through that that 1:11:41.280 --> 1:11:44.200 that ship. People. People started on the ground, Like I 1:11:44.240 --> 1:11:46.560 remember a march, you know, early on, you know, the 1:11:46.560 --> 1:11:48.280 police would attack and everyone would sort of like de 1:11:48.360 --> 1:11:50.439 try to de escalate, and people would try to like 1:11:50.479 --> 1:11:52.599 you know, like like talk to the cops or whatever. 1:11:52.840 --> 1:11:55.400 And like by November when right before the camps got cleared, 1:11:55.439 --> 1:11:58.639 I remember being on a march where we stole all 1:11:58.680 --> 1:12:01.840 of their orange betting there using and you're just holding 1:12:01.880 --> 1:12:04.360 it over our head at a large and like trapping 1:12:04.400 --> 1:12:06.479 cops in it. So like even in New York where 1:12:06.479 --> 1:12:09.800 things never got that intense, um like in some ways 1:12:09.840 --> 1:12:12.200 in terms of direct action like that lesson on the ground, 1:12:12.680 --> 1:12:15.559 like you have to be you have to be very 1:12:15.600 --> 1:12:18.360 ideologically committed to get hit with the baton three times 1:12:18.360 --> 1:12:20.040 and still think the police are on your side. You know, 1:12:20.320 --> 1:12:21.600 you have to, like really, you have to really be 1:12:21.720 --> 1:12:23.519 drinking the kool aid. And some people are like some 1:12:23.520 --> 1:12:26.559 people really do want to believe that. But I think, um, 1:12:26.600 --> 1:12:30.960 I think that was one So during occupy, like those 1:12:31.000 --> 1:12:34.240 of us who hated the police were pretty lonely even 1:12:34.280 --> 1:12:36.040 though the police were beating us up. But by the 1:12:36.160 --> 1:12:38.479 end of occupy, the seeds had really been sown for 1:12:38.520 --> 1:12:42.320 a lot of generational understanding of the police that didn't 1:12:42.360 --> 1:12:47.080 necessarily immediately so fruit like it wasn't immediately obvious, but 1:12:47.120 --> 1:12:49.960 I think, like, I think like folks who stayed in 1:12:50.040 --> 1:12:53.720 struggle from there grew more and more anti police. Yeah, 1:12:53.760 --> 1:12:56.120 that was that in general, that was well, okay, so 1:12:56.160 --> 1:12:59.639 mystres was less with occupying more with like the two 1:12:59.640 --> 1:13:01.640 dozen beteen stuff in Turkey, but it like that that 1:13:01.720 --> 1:13:04.080 was because I was brought up in that like the 1:13:04.200 --> 1:13:08.439 sort of like Foe Gandhi and like, yeah, MLK civilis 1:13:08.439 --> 1:13:11.080 a Beans and then it was like like I watched 1:13:11.120 --> 1:13:13.880 Turkey happened and it was like, hey, here's my friend 1:13:14.080 --> 1:13:16.400 just like getting his ribs broken by a cop. And 1:13:16.400 --> 1:13:18.840 then like there's Raba and you know, and Ba is 1:13:18.840 --> 1:13:20.680 sort of where with the Egyptian movement dies and Ba 1:13:20.760 --> 1:13:22.320 they just you know, they bring out the machine guns 1:13:22.360 --> 1:13:25.040 and they just shoot everyone. Yeah, and at a certain point, 1:13:25.200 --> 1:13:27.599 like you know, this is the limited non violence, right? 1:13:27.680 --> 1:13:30.639 Is that what happens if they just shoot you? And 1:13:30.640 --> 1:13:34.040 and Gandhi you know, if what if you ever want 1:13:34.040 --> 1:13:36.439 to like go down to the Gandhi rabbit hole, like 1:13:36.560 --> 1:13:40.920 Gandhi like writes this letter to like like the Jews 1:13:40.960 --> 1:13:43.799 of Germany where he's telling them to like throw themselves 1:13:43.800 --> 1:13:46.439 on the blades of the Nazis, and it's like this, 1:13:46.600 --> 1:13:48.719 it's it's this is this is like, yes, it sucks. 1:13:48.760 --> 1:13:52.760 This is ridiculous, Like just this is like it's being 1:13:52.840 --> 1:13:58.120 complacent for abuse. UM. Anyone Too Studios has a really 1:13:58.120 --> 1:14:03.280 good video on why non violence helps the state UM 1:14:03.320 --> 1:14:07.640 and how basically activists that try to force other you know, 1:14:07.720 --> 1:14:11.839 demonstrators to adhere strictly to non violence, that's basically that's 1:14:11.880 --> 1:14:17.400 that's them, and that's them basically saying that if like that, 1:14:17.400 --> 1:14:20.680 that's them endorsing the police beating somebody up like like that, 1:14:20.840 --> 1:14:23.479 Like that's it's it's not actually tied to any kind 1:14:23.479 --> 1:14:26.000 of movement, and it doesn't actually help, Like I and 1:14:26.080 --> 1:14:28.680 we could actually see this last year with like the 1:14:28.760 --> 1:14:31.320 first few weeks of like you know, abuse from the 1:14:31.360 --> 1:14:34.760 state actually making headlines and actually changing people. But after 1:14:34.800 --> 1:14:37.960 a while it just didn't matter, Like a cop could 1:14:38.000 --> 1:14:41.440 put someone down and pummel their face in like August, 1:14:41.479 --> 1:14:43.759 and like who gives a ship? Nobody, Like it doesn't 1:14:43.800 --> 1:14:46.280 it doesn't matter, you know, Like that's that's why I 1:14:47.280 --> 1:14:49.720 found it funny when you talked about, like, you know, 1:14:49.840 --> 1:14:52.599 people getting mad because cops were like macing people when 1:14:52.640 --> 1:14:54.800 they surrounto them, And I'm like, if that happened, no one, 1:14:54.920 --> 1:14:56.840 no one would give a ship, Like yeah, well, like 1:14:56.880 --> 1:15:00.160 I think, not not at all anymore. Yeah, totally. Well, 1:15:00.280 --> 1:15:03.400 I think I think part of it is the first 1:15:03.479 --> 1:15:07.759 time that you see it, it's like what on earth? 1:15:08.520 --> 1:15:10.280 Like this? This I think has been one of the 1:15:10.320 --> 1:15:12.320 things that's been the core of the whole sort of 1:15:13.160 --> 1:15:18.519 nineteen like late sort of cycle revolutions. Is that like 1:15:19.280 --> 1:15:21.760 if if you're just like a dude in a grocery 1:15:21.760 --> 1:15:25.840 store and some guy runs in, is like running away 1:15:25.840 --> 1:15:27.720 from the cops and then like fifteen riot cops and 1:15:27.720 --> 1:15:28.920 just start beating the showout of them, which is the 1:15:28.920 --> 1:15:31.080 thing that happens like a lot. Like if you just 1:15:31.240 --> 1:15:35.720 see that, right, there's no way you can actually like 1:15:35.720 --> 1:15:39.280 like if you ordinary person just witness the cops running 1:15:39.320 --> 1:15:41.160 up and just beating the show someone, like, there's no 1:15:41.200 --> 1:15:43.800 way you can't not be sort of radicalized against the 1:15:43.840 --> 1:15:45.600 police by it. But like, yeah, but there's there's a 1:15:45.640 --> 1:15:49.519 certain point where you hit it. The decentilization happens more 1:15:49.640 --> 1:15:54.400 quickly than what it should. Um, and we stopped caring. 1:15:55.400 --> 1:15:57.120 I agree. I agree with both of you that like that, 1:15:57.280 --> 1:16:00.000 Like both it is shocking and radicalizing and we get 1:16:00.000 --> 1:16:05.480 desensitized because there is so much spectacular pressure to naturalize 1:16:05.479 --> 1:16:07.600 the police and non violence ideology is part of that 1:16:07.720 --> 1:16:10.639 is part of naturalizing police violence, right, Like, there's nothing 1:16:10.640 --> 1:16:13.240 you can do about the police violence. Um, so all 1:16:13.280 --> 1:16:15.960 you can do is control yourself, and therefore you should 1:16:16.080 --> 1:16:18.080 you know, you should be better or whatever. Yeah, Gandhi 1:16:18.120 --> 1:16:21.479 had this whole fantasy about Um, the perfect army would 1:16:21.520 --> 1:16:25.040 march unarmed into machine gun fire, um and would just 1:16:25.080 --> 1:16:27.400 be mowed down. It's it's he's a fascist, frankly. Um 1:16:27.800 --> 1:16:30.400 And and yeah, and you only need to look at 1:16:30.400 --> 1:16:32.960 his opinions about black Africans when he was when he 1:16:33.280 --> 1:16:35.080 Africot to see that even if you even if you 1:16:35.160 --> 1:16:38.880 just read like like even if you just read like 1:16:39.000 --> 1:16:42.640 self reliance, it's like this is you know, it's what 1:16:42.680 --> 1:16:45.040 everything I want to talk about with with the peace 1:16:45.080 --> 1:16:48.680 police though, which is that like they're also like in 1:16:48.760 --> 1:16:54.240 terms of like fighting, like inflicting violence on other protesters, 1:16:54.320 --> 1:16:57.120 Like they are the most violent like of of of 1:16:57.160 --> 1:16:58.960 the factions you see in a pro that does happen 1:16:59.080 --> 1:17:03.120 very well, maybe maybe not the most like it does 1:17:03.200 --> 1:17:06.519 happen like like they beat people up. Like yeah, I 1:17:06.560 --> 1:17:08.559 was just gonna say, like it ties into like protest security, 1:17:08.640 --> 1:17:12.360 and when protest security is usually working with these more 1:17:12.360 --> 1:17:15.519 like peace police type organizers, and then they use protest 1:17:15.520 --> 1:17:18.639 security to literally beat up people who are doing more 1:17:18.720 --> 1:17:22.479 radical action against the state. Um. That happens all the time. Yes, 1:17:22.520 --> 1:17:26.040 oh yeah, protest security. When I see protest security or marshals, um, 1:17:26.080 --> 1:17:28.280 I know exactly that that the that we're in a 1:17:28.320 --> 1:17:30.680 bad We're in a bad march. Um. The only time 1:17:30.720 --> 1:17:34.360 I've ever been physically assaulted by another protester was during 1:17:34.400 --> 1:17:37.760 Occupy actually, um during after the night after you've been evicted, um, 1:17:37.800 --> 1:17:41.120 which is like November, I think. UM. And if people 1:17:41.160 --> 1:17:44.479 don't remember, Obama and the FBI coordinated this nationally, all 1:17:44.479 --> 1:17:48.040 the occupying encampments got swept within a week of each other. UM. 1:17:48.720 --> 1:17:51.040 On that march, Um, We're marching around even march arout 1:17:51.040 --> 1:17:53.479 all night, UM. And I'm just dragging a trash can 1:17:53.520 --> 1:17:55.439 into the street because we're being followed by police cars, 1:17:55.479 --> 1:17:58.559 and I'm literally attempting to like do some education at 1:17:58.560 --> 1:18:00.559 the same time. I'm like pulling in the trash can 1:18:00.600 --> 1:18:02.720 in the street, and I'm yelling, you know, I am 1:18:02.760 --> 1:18:05.879 doing this because I want to protect us from police violence. 1:18:05.920 --> 1:18:07.840 Like if this is in the street, then the cop 1:18:07.880 --> 1:18:10.160 cars can't catch us as much. That's why we build barakat. 1:18:10.240 --> 1:18:12.479 I'm like literally trying to like yell this because, like, 1:18:12.600 --> 1:18:15.000 you know, because pulling a trash can the streets incredibly 1:18:15.000 --> 1:18:17.120 and effective ultimately, so it was like literally it was 1:18:17.120 --> 1:18:19.799 literally just like for education purposes. At that point, basically anyway, 1:18:19.960 --> 1:18:21.439 especially since a lot of people would like pull them 1:18:21.439 --> 1:18:23.880 back out of the street. Whatever. This guy runs up 1:18:23.880 --> 1:18:26.320 on me and grabs me by the collar and lifts 1:18:26.360 --> 1:18:28.559 me up and like threatens me with this fucking fist, 1:18:28.560 --> 1:18:30.639 and he says, if my mom can't get to work 1:18:30.680 --> 1:18:33.760 tomorrow because of you, like I'll beat the ship out 1:18:33.760 --> 1:18:35.560 of you. And we're like we're marching in Manhattan, and 1:18:35.680 --> 1:18:37.360 like one a m I'm like, what the hell are 1:18:37.400 --> 1:18:39.360 you talking about? And like he would have he would 1:18:39.360 --> 1:18:41.000 have hurt me, like pretty bad if a friend of 1:18:41.000 --> 1:18:42.479 mine had like luckily had my back and like de 1:18:42.560 --> 1:18:44.720 escalated a bit. That's the only time I've ever been 1:18:44.760 --> 1:18:49.120 like physically like brought up like into a fight um 1:18:49.360 --> 1:18:53.040 with by by another protester. Was was a guy insisting 1:18:53.080 --> 1:18:55.320 that me dragging a trash can into the street was 1:18:55.360 --> 1:19:01.240 beyond the pale. But I want to just talk a 1:19:01.240 --> 1:19:04.640 bit more, but like how systematic the violence was, like 1:19:04.680 --> 1:19:07.840 because Okay, So originally I was gonna try to get 1:19:07.880 --> 1:19:10.000 someone from Occupy Oaklands to come talk about this, and 1:19:10.040 --> 1:19:12.599 I talked to a lot of people and the biggest 1:19:12.600 --> 1:19:14.599 thing that I got was that no one would talk 1:19:14.600 --> 1:19:16.960 about it on the record because they got because Oakland 1:19:16.960 --> 1:19:19.240 had Oakland had a blacklist, and if if you were 1:19:19.240 --> 1:19:22.920 inoccupy and like anyone else found out about it, like 1:19:23.400 --> 1:19:26.360 people like people couldn't people spent half a decade just 1:19:27.040 --> 1:19:29.720 not being able to find jobs because they just play 1:19:29.720 --> 1:19:32.800 black listed everyone. And like to this day, like the 1:19:32.800 --> 1:19:35.000 thing I was told was like, yeah, I'm I won't 1:19:35.000 --> 1:19:37.800 talk about this because you know, like if if I 1:19:37.840 --> 1:19:39.559 talk about this, like I will be fired. All of 1:19:39.560 --> 1:19:42.200 my family everyone around me will be fired. And there's 1:19:42.280 --> 1:19:43.800 like I think, like this is the ever thing. But 1:19:43.840 --> 1:19:46.960 when we talked about sort of the collapsive occupy, the 1:19:46.960 --> 1:19:49.720 the extent to which after Obamba in the f bare 1:19:49.840 --> 1:19:54.080 ordered the camps closed, the policy is that the cops 1:19:54.080 --> 1:19:56.759 are going to torture anyone who attempts to like gather 1:19:56.880 --> 1:20:00.559 in a place yep, yep. For for two years, you 1:20:00.560 --> 1:20:03.120 couldn't have a meeting outside without the police attacking basically, 1:20:03.160 --> 1:20:06.720 and um and um and yeah, I mean it was 1:20:06.800 --> 1:20:09.400 it was you know, I think like a lot of 1:20:09.560 --> 1:20:13.080 um the people who now claim that that occupy is 1:20:13.160 --> 1:20:15.200 the reason that they do politics or whatever, for burning 1:20:15.200 --> 1:20:17.479 Sanders or whatever. Um. At the time, they were saying 1:20:17.479 --> 1:20:20.920 that the reason it collapses because there was no UM organization. 1:20:20.960 --> 1:20:23.320 There was no structure, there was no political party, there 1:20:23.360 --> 1:20:26.000 was no you know whatever, there was no demands. And 1:20:26.040 --> 1:20:29.599 like it's true that it was poorly organized, like there's 1:20:29.720 --> 1:20:33.680 no doubt, um, but like we got beat out of 1:20:33.680 --> 1:20:35.679 the streets, Like we got beat out of the streets, 1:20:35.680 --> 1:20:38.720 and like people tried for six months really intensely, and 1:20:38.720 --> 1:20:41.439 for another six months after that less intensely to restart 1:20:41.479 --> 1:20:44.120 that energy. Um. There was all this works forwards, like 1:20:44.120 --> 1:20:47.080 a general strike on May Day, UM two thousand twelve, 1:20:47.120 --> 1:20:49.400 which ended up not really working, which is actually exactly 1:20:49.439 --> 1:20:53.000 the kind of demand filled one day of action kind 1:20:53.040 --> 1:20:55.880 of politics that they were demanding actually really failed, which 1:20:55.880 --> 1:20:58.559 I think is telling. But but in the meantime, like 1:20:58.600 --> 1:21:00.960 you know, like occupy, like Jocattie got cleared. But for 1:21:00.960 --> 1:21:03.280 a while, there was the thing No one remembers this, 1:21:03.320 --> 1:21:04.920 I don't think, but there was a thing up in 1:21:05.040 --> 1:21:08.360 um uh Union Square, UM. There was an occupation for 1:21:08.360 --> 1:21:10.400 three weeks. There was like all the Union Square freaks 1:21:10.760 --> 1:21:14.439 um and like a bunch of occupiers UM. And yeah, 1:21:14.479 --> 1:21:17.439 the cops just like it was just like batons out 1:21:17.560 --> 1:21:19.920 on site. For a few years in New York, and 1:21:19.920 --> 1:21:22.120 I know it was like that everywhere else or most 1:21:22.120 --> 1:21:24.920 everywhere else, and that that came down from on high 1:21:25.160 --> 1:21:27.479 that like the police were just like, oh, what was 1:21:27.560 --> 1:21:30.639 dangerous about this was people gathering in public? So we 1:21:30.760 --> 1:21:33.280 really need to like we really need to like enforce 1:21:33.320 --> 1:21:36.000 the Second Amendment being meaningless now, we really need to 1:21:36.040 --> 1:21:40.719 stop meetings from happening in public. UM. And that violence 1:21:40.800 --> 1:21:43.280 was super intense and super real, and a lot of 1:21:43.320 --> 1:21:45.760 people got beaten out of the movement, you know, and 1:21:45.800 --> 1:21:47.840 a lot of people got really demoralized and left. And 1:21:48.040 --> 1:21:51.160 I understand why. Um, it was scary and awful, and 1:21:51.200 --> 1:21:53.559 there was a lot of repression and um, you know, 1:21:53.600 --> 1:21:55.760 and it and it, and it has continued to sort 1:21:55.760 --> 1:21:58.760 of that that kind of repression has continued to escalate. UM. 1:21:58.800 --> 1:22:02.040 But what has successfully happened in our movements, I think, 1:22:02.040 --> 1:22:04.080 to our to our credit, is that we haven't actually 1:22:04.120 --> 1:22:09.559 formed the kinds of hierarchical organizations that allow for more 1:22:09.600 --> 1:22:12.479 effective police repression. All the police have right now against us, 1:22:12.520 --> 1:22:15.400 for the most part, is batons in the street. Um. 1:22:15.439 --> 1:22:18.120 They have a lot more trouble infiltrating, UM, a lot 1:22:18.120 --> 1:22:21.120 more trouble, which doesn't mean, they aren't trying like crazy, 1:22:21.160 --> 1:22:23.280 but they have a lot more trouble um um taking 1:22:23.280 --> 1:22:25.400 down the movements in the in a sort of cointel 1:22:25.439 --> 1:22:29.200 pro way, right. Um. The modes of oppression have changed 1:22:29.200 --> 1:22:31.800 a bit. Um. But that's also because we don't have 1:22:32.560 --> 1:22:33.840 it's a combination of the fact that we don't have 1:22:33.920 --> 1:22:35.800 those forms of organization, but we also don't have those 1:22:35.800 --> 1:22:39.120 forms of organization because they don't emerge spontaneously from our 1:22:39.160 --> 1:22:41.479 living conditions like they used to. UM. So I think 1:22:41.479 --> 1:22:44.080 it's it's you can't just give credit to any one thing. 1:22:44.120 --> 1:22:46.080 There's a lot of different factors at play. I think 1:22:46.920 --> 1:22:48.240 I will say one of one of the other things 1:22:48.280 --> 1:22:50.080 that that I've noticed, and I think I think I'm 1:22:50.080 --> 1:22:52.080 pretty sure this has happened to talk people are talking 1:22:52.080 --> 1:22:53.880 about that occupies it. Like the first thing if you 1:22:53.920 --> 1:22:55.479 have a group of people who are just they're the 1:22:55.479 --> 1:22:57.000 first thing the cops trying to do is a point 1:22:57.000 --> 1:22:59.439 a leader so that they have one person that they 1:22:59.479 --> 1:23:01.120 can do to with this this and this lets them 1:23:01.120 --> 1:23:02.680 sort of this this sort of like access point to 1:23:02.720 --> 1:23:04.800 which they sort of break like the demands of the 1:23:04.840 --> 1:23:06.760 crowd is that they find one person they point in 1:23:06.800 --> 1:23:08.280 the lead and they get that person to sort of 1:23:08.320 --> 1:23:11.479 like be the liaison. My favorite Occupied joke. I gotta 1:23:11.479 --> 1:23:13.320 give respect to Occupy Denver. This is the best joke 1:23:13.400 --> 1:23:15.880 that ever happened. And Occupy they announced the beginning of 1:23:15.880 --> 1:23:18.240 one week on Friday, we are going to announce our leader. 1:23:18.280 --> 1:23:20.639 Occupy Denver has chosen a leader, and the whole movement 1:23:20.760 --> 1:23:23.040 got so upset and everyone was so angry. I was like, 1:23:23.080 --> 1:23:25.080 what the fuck? And like they had this like big 1:23:25.120 --> 1:23:28.920 press conference and their leader was a Golden Retriever. It 1:23:29.040 --> 1:23:33.360 was like a who knows to Occupied Denver? Whoever organ 1:23:33.479 --> 1:23:37.080 is that prank? I love you, I guess. Yeah, speaking 1:23:37.120 --> 1:23:39.160 thinking of kudos to a place. The last thing I 1:23:39.200 --> 1:23:43.880 wanted to talk about was the giant like port occupation 1:23:44.160 --> 1:23:47.719 strike thing in Oakland, because I mean that that wasn't 1:23:47.720 --> 1:23:49.600 the first time people had done it, Like I know, 1:23:49.640 --> 1:23:51.720 I know during the anti war movements even do like 1:23:51.720 --> 1:23:54.479 two eight there's one of people trying to occupy ports. 1:23:55.400 --> 1:23:59.280 But in Oakland they like did it. They really they 1:23:59.280 --> 1:24:02.120 put like footy I was in people like in this 1:24:02.640 --> 1:24:05.360 in the Port of Oakland and they shut it down. Yeah, 1:24:05.560 --> 1:24:08.559 And I think that was like that was one of 1:24:08.600 --> 1:24:11.200 the things. One of the stories kind of been lost 1:24:11.360 --> 1:24:15.160 from this because like, you know, like that was the point. 1:24:15.200 --> 1:24:16.960 Like so like I know people in Oakland who like 1:24:17.400 --> 1:24:21.080 they got like drugged, repeatedly drugged by police informants because 1:24:22.040 --> 1:24:25.000 particularly Oakland. Also Oakland is also way the walking by 1:24:25.000 --> 1:24:27.880 Oakland bood is way way less white than any other movements, 1:24:28.000 --> 1:24:31.760 and they get like the kind of police oppression they 1:24:31.800 --> 1:24:37.040 get is like it's just like yeah, you know again 1:24:37.080 --> 1:24:41.639 like people people being repeatedly drugged by informants, like cops 1:24:41.640 --> 1:24:44.640 shooting people in the face, like the you know, you 1:24:44.680 --> 1:24:46.200 have you have the black list, you have all this stuff. 1:24:46.240 --> 1:24:49.639 And I think, you know, part of it, yeah, yeah, 1:24:49.840 --> 1:24:51.559 And I think part of it is because part of 1:24:51.560 --> 1:24:53.240 it's because it's a bunch of non white people and 1:24:53.400 --> 1:24:56.719 that's you know, that's just what happens. But I think 1:24:56.840 --> 1:25:00.280 another part of it was also that there was this 1:25:00.560 --> 1:25:06.400 fear about Yes, so so the reason the port strike 1:25:06.560 --> 1:25:09.479 is able to happen is because there's sort of there's 1:25:09.520 --> 1:25:12.200 a complicated game here where the people like sort of 1:25:12.200 --> 1:25:16.640 got involved in in like longshoreman union politics. But that 1:25:16.880 --> 1:25:20.080 sort of like fusion of of give all the people 1:25:20.080 --> 1:25:22.880 in the street and then they start showing down ports 1:25:22.880 --> 1:25:27.240 and that, like like the cops like lose their minds 1:25:27.280 --> 1:25:30.760 over that. Like that that I think was like extremely 1:25:30.880 --> 1:25:35.639 scary to them in a lot of wiz. Yeah, I mean, 1:25:35.760 --> 1:25:37.720 you know, I would you know, I would defer to 1:25:37.760 --> 1:25:39.680 anyone from Oakland who was who was there during that. 1:25:39.720 --> 1:25:41.240 You know, I have comrades there, I've talked to you 1:25:41.240 --> 1:25:43.519 have read about it since. But you know, I think 1:25:43.640 --> 1:25:46.120 I think part of the heightened police oppression and the 1:25:46.160 --> 1:25:49.400 heightened power of the Oakland occupied Oakland folks was Oscar 1:25:49.439 --> 1:25:51.479 Grant rebellion. Like I mentioned the two thousand nine which 1:25:51.479 --> 1:25:53.000 had happened, which had you know, I have been a 1:25:53.000 --> 1:25:55.120 few hundred people, but it had been really rowdy. They'd 1:25:55.160 --> 1:25:57.960 been like looting and smashing. Um maybe maybe more than 1:25:57.960 --> 1:25:59.479 a few hundred, maybe near a thousand people on the 1:25:59.520 --> 1:26:02.719 big on the first snight. UM. And you also obviously 1:26:02.760 --> 1:26:04.720 have the legacy of the Black Panthers in Oakland. So 1:26:04.840 --> 1:26:06.880 you know, the Black Panther Party, you know, forms in 1:26:06.920 --> 1:26:09.080 Oakland at last, in Oakland a decade and a half 1:26:09.120 --> 1:26:11.400 longer than it does anywhere else in the country. UM. 1:26:11.439 --> 1:26:13.120 So there's a lot of like and you also have 1:26:13.240 --> 1:26:15.960 the really really intense textrification in the Bay that's happening. 1:26:16.200 --> 1:26:18.600 So there's an incredible political and economic pressure in the 1:26:18.600 --> 1:26:23.080 Bay combined with this history of radicalism that really you know, um, 1:26:23.120 --> 1:26:25.559 but yeah, I think also the other thing that's really interesting. 1:26:25.720 --> 1:26:27.360 I think what you said, like you you put your 1:26:27.520 --> 1:26:29.080 you know, you hit the nail on the head, Like 1:26:29.360 --> 1:26:31.280 it was largely like it was terrifying that it was 1:26:31.320 --> 1:26:33.680 the most effective direct action in the occupy movement, I 1:26:33.720 --> 1:26:35.880 think was that port shutdown. I think, without a doubt, 1:26:35.880 --> 1:26:39.640 like the biggest mass direct action that that occupy achieved, Um, 1:26:39.960 --> 1:26:41.680 was that November twelve? Was that was that with the 1:26:41.720 --> 1:26:44.160 data that I don't remember near the end of the 1:26:44.560 --> 1:26:47.720 near the end of the cycle. Um. And I think 1:26:47.760 --> 1:26:51.800 like the other thing about um about that though, that 1:26:51.800 --> 1:26:54.120 that was very similar to the altar globalization movement, right 1:26:54.120 --> 1:26:56.320 where the unions had sort of teamed up with you know, 1:26:56.360 --> 1:26:58.240 like in Seattle there's a lot of trade unions on 1:26:58.240 --> 1:27:00.360 the ground next to all the black blocks, right, um. 1:27:00.360 --> 1:27:04.080 And I think like that that image, Um, I think 1:27:04.160 --> 1:27:06.920 really it's really interesting. It really terrified the police, and 1:27:06.960 --> 1:27:09.600 it really it could be it could have been a 1:27:09.720 --> 1:27:13.120 vector for a certain kind of like labor first politics 1:27:13.320 --> 1:27:15.360 that could have emerged, but instead, like the labor first 1:27:15.400 --> 1:27:17.720 people have turned out to be all electoralists. Yeah, it 1:27:17.760 --> 1:27:19.719 seems that that's sort of a weird blip that hasn't 1:27:19.760 --> 1:27:23.080 really returned. Um. Yeah. And it's interesting too because like 1:27:23.120 --> 1:27:26.000 because now like you know, like the like the the 1:27:26.320 --> 1:27:28.439 a f l C. I oh, just like you know 1:27:28.880 --> 1:27:30.679 a f l C A is like no cop unions great, 1:27:30.680 --> 1:27:32.200 And it's like there's this there's this sort of like 1:27:32.680 --> 1:27:37.280 split between the street movements and organized labor because they're 1:27:38.920 --> 1:27:41.960 off doing like electoral stuff and like cops ship, which 1:27:41.960 --> 1:27:45.160 is this sort of yeah, and and and and have 1:27:45.240 --> 1:27:47.280 been now for for seven decades, you know, I mean, 1:27:47.360 --> 1:27:50.320 I mean really like like the buying off of the 1:27:50.360 --> 1:27:52.600 unions and the New Deal, um, you know, with some 1:27:52.680 --> 1:27:55.120 brief you know, with brief windows of like wildcat action 1:27:55.120 --> 1:27:57.760 in the seventies and the nineties. Um, the buying off 1:27:57.760 --> 1:27:59.799 of the unions has has never really gone away. Industrial 1:27:59.880 --> 1:28:01.679 un is UM in the US has has long been 1:28:01.840 --> 1:28:05.080 and in and in Europe everywhere where everywhere where those 1:28:05.120 --> 1:28:07.519 developed in the early twenty century, that labor movement UM, 1:28:07.560 --> 1:28:10.240 they've really been successfully bought off. And I don't think 1:28:11.560 --> 1:28:14.360 there is. Uh. I don't think that those unions are 1:28:14.400 --> 1:28:17.400 like a big easy route to power anymore than I don't. 1:28:17.439 --> 1:28:19.759 I don't like I think they're going to overthrow the government. 1:28:19.760 --> 1:28:21.240 I mean, but I will say, yeah, this is this 1:28:21.280 --> 1:28:23.280 is my my also my the thing that I plug 1:28:23.360 --> 1:28:24.720 every time is at the a f l C. I 1:28:24.800 --> 1:28:27.600 O over through a end a like yeah, like like 1:28:27.640 --> 1:28:30.360 they they they there are people on the ground were 1:28:30.400 --> 1:28:34.240 like directing like like we're directing a bunch of the 1:28:34.240 --> 1:28:36.120 anti a end a stuff and it's like and it 1:28:36.200 --> 1:28:37.920 was the and it was the union bureaucracy is like 1:28:37.960 --> 1:28:40.280 more recently in two thousand one, who are in the 1:28:40.320 --> 1:28:44.599 wake of September eleventh, who transformed the anti globalization rhetoric 1:28:44.640 --> 1:28:47.679 into buy American, which it turned out was often buying 1:28:47.720 --> 1:28:50.559 prison made materials. But like that was that was the union, 1:28:50.600 --> 1:28:54.479 the union sort of um defanged defanged alter globalization into 1:28:54.479 --> 1:28:56.360 buy American. And there's there's a thing, like there's a 1:28:56.360 --> 1:28:59.920 whole another story there about how that like how anti 1:29:00.080 --> 1:29:04.080 orbalization turned from like you know, the Zapatistas too, like 1:29:04.320 --> 1:29:09.360 Trump which is incredibly depressing and yeah, goes goes through 1:29:09.400 --> 1:29:13.800 this line of sort of like the replacement of internationalism 1:29:13.800 --> 1:29:16.759 with nationalism and that kind of like by local stuff 1:29:16.800 --> 1:29:22.439 and the fact that like these people sort of just 1:29:23.040 --> 1:29:26.400 decided that, you know personally after Seattle part steption at eleven, 1:29:26.439 --> 1:29:28.880 they're just like we're not doing direct action again. And 1:29:28.880 --> 1:29:32.160 in Oakland's like Oaklands like like that. That's like that's 1:29:32.160 --> 1:29:35.160 like the one big exception to that was that moment 1:29:35.320 --> 1:29:37.719 and then it just kind of just has never happened again. 1:29:38.680 --> 1:29:41.000 And that's partially because that that union that I LW 1:29:41.360 --> 1:29:43.680 is I l W I think out there is on 1:29:43.720 --> 1:29:46.160 the on the poorts that was a particularly like radical 1:29:46.280 --> 1:29:49.080 union that had happened in Wildcats like and and was 1:29:49.160 --> 1:29:51.280 like like more democratic than any of the many of 1:29:51.280 --> 1:29:53.640 the other unions and in in those those hips. But 1:29:53.760 --> 1:29:56.679 uh yeah, but that's that's also like a big story 1:29:56.720 --> 1:30:00.280 for another time. The connotation of global anti global nation 1:30:00.360 --> 1:30:04.880 over the twenty year period. Yeah, you know, it's just 1:30:04.960 --> 1:30:06.679 kind of corny, but like what what can we actually 1:30:06.800 --> 1:30:10.160 learn from what happened there, what went wrong and sort 1:30:10.200 --> 1:30:17.120 of what the limits of it was. Yeah, Okay, So 1:30:17.160 --> 1:30:20.000 the legacy, So I think one legacy that um, the 1:30:20.080 --> 1:30:22.479 legacy that is most widely accepted and known, which we 1:30:22.520 --> 1:30:26.720 can go over quickly, is that it reintroduced class discourse, 1:30:27.200 --> 1:30:30.000 largely into the popular you know, the n which is 1:30:30.040 --> 1:30:32.840 a very very bad class politics. But like, you know, 1:30:32.880 --> 1:30:35.800 like UM, like the you know, it reintroduced some of 1:30:35.800 --> 1:30:39.960 that sort of class war class war discourse and UM 1:30:40.040 --> 1:30:42.920 and I think more important than that, but but not 1:30:43.040 --> 1:30:48.080 that dissimilar. It UM reintroduced um street politics into the US. UM. 1:30:48.120 --> 1:30:51.440 I think part of the legacy that gets forgotten UM 1:30:51.479 --> 1:30:54.960 because like the general the global nous of the wave 1:30:55.040 --> 1:30:59.280 gets forgotten as well. Like is that when when ship 1:30:59.280 --> 1:31:03.120 pops off in New York, everyone in the world knows, 1:31:03.439 --> 1:31:05.720 or at least they did then, right, because America had 1:31:05.760 --> 1:31:10.760 been so successfully you know, appeased politically for so long 1:31:11.000 --> 1:31:14.560 that I think that when occupy popped off, UM in 1:31:15.200 --> 1:31:17.519 rather it really like signals to the world, like the 1:31:17.560 --> 1:31:19.000 rest of the world like, oh, like this is real, 1:31:19.120 --> 1:31:20.679 like even in the you know, even in the center 1:31:20.720 --> 1:31:24.000 of empire, like like people are rising up. Um. It's 1:31:24.040 --> 1:31:25.960 hard to remember and it's weird, but like there was 1:31:26.000 --> 1:31:29.160 an occupy in uh New York, in a UK, there 1:31:29.200 --> 1:31:30.760 was one in Tel Aviv. There was actually kind of 1:31:30.760 --> 1:31:34.000 like a pro Palestinian occupy in Tel Aviv briefly UM. 1:31:34.400 --> 1:31:36.920 And you know, I think maybe the most powerful sort 1:31:36.920 --> 1:31:40.479 of immediate tactical UM offshoot of occupied was occupyed Nigeria 1:31:41.000 --> 1:31:44.639 UM in the first weeks of UM when President good 1:31:44.720 --> 1:31:49.280 Luck Jonathan um took took the fuel subsidies away, and 1:31:49.280 --> 1:31:51.439 they were like sort of two weeks of really intense 1:31:51.479 --> 1:31:55.000 revolutionary rioting UM in in Nigeria that that then called 1:31:55.040 --> 1:31:57.280 themselves occupy as a way of being legible. It's the 1:31:57.320 --> 1:32:02.120 rest of the world, UM. I think the other legacies 1:32:02.160 --> 1:32:04.839 though that are that are a little more sort of subtle, 1:32:05.040 --> 1:32:07.280 I guess is like that a lot of folks still 1:32:07.280 --> 1:32:09.519 in the struggle now, Like I will still meet people, 1:32:09.760 --> 1:32:11.840 you know, my age who like I've met I have 1:32:11.880 --> 1:32:13.680 two comrades here in Philly who I didn't know at 1:32:13.680 --> 1:32:15.479 the time, but who were organizing in New York right, 1:32:15.600 --> 1:32:17.560 Like we probably hung out in rooms together, like we 1:32:17.680 --> 1:32:19.840 probably like we were probably in the same spaces. But 1:32:19.920 --> 1:32:21.960 like so like a lot of folks, you know it 1:32:23.120 --> 1:32:25.640 each of these waves that has come has left, you know, 1:32:25.680 --> 1:32:28.120 some people leave, some people swing right, but like there's 1:32:28.120 --> 1:32:30.680 a residue of folks that like becomes the base for 1:32:30.720 --> 1:32:33.320 the next movement. And I think like occupy really did 1:32:33.400 --> 1:32:35.960 provide a lot of people in a way that the 1:32:36.000 --> 1:32:40.800 gap between alter globalization and occupy didn't produce nearly as 1:32:40.880 --> 1:32:42.800 large a contingent of people, although of course there are 1:32:42.800 --> 1:32:46.920 those people, um. But I think also like really importantly 1:32:47.160 --> 1:32:50.200 like the tactics of occupy. Like one of the things 1:32:50.200 --> 1:32:52.599 that was incredible about the George Floyd uprising was that 1:32:52.920 --> 1:32:56.080 every tactic that we um have tried in the last 1:32:56.080 --> 1:32:58.840 ten years re emerged. Right. There was a prison strike, 1:32:59.120 --> 1:33:03.639 there were indigenous blockades, there were me Too style callouts UM, 1:33:03.640 --> 1:33:06.240 which of course developed out of um punk and queer 1:33:06.240 --> 1:33:07.960 scene callouts that have been going on for a decade. 1:33:08.120 --> 1:33:10.639 But there were occupations, right. You had the chairs in Seattle, 1:33:11.040 --> 1:33:15.200 which we can you know, well, well what we're yeah, 1:33:15.400 --> 1:33:17.800 we will get to that one day in any case, 1:33:17.880 --> 1:33:20.519 in any case, like I think like that that has 1:33:20.560 --> 1:33:24.320 remained in the repertoire of poltarian struggle, like as a 1:33:24.360 --> 1:33:27.280 result of of occupy and and and if it had 1:33:27.320 --> 1:33:29.200 just been occupied, maybe it wouldn't as a result of 1:33:29.240 --> 1:33:32.559 the global movement of the squares, which obviously goes until 1:33:32.680 --> 1:33:37.439 Terrier Squareen and Turkey. I think it's probably the Gezi 1:33:37.520 --> 1:33:40.360 Park in a Turkey, um, which is like the last 1:33:40.400 --> 1:33:43.080 big moment of the squares really um, But that five 1:33:43.160 --> 1:33:46.240 year wave, like it was really really important, um globally, 1:33:46.560 --> 1:33:49.920 really really important locally as well, UM in terms of 1:33:49.960 --> 1:33:52.679 building activists, building a class of of well, I don't 1:33:52.720 --> 1:33:55.160 you know whatever, building revolutionaries, whatever you want to call them, 1:33:55.360 --> 1:33:57.360 the good version of the thing, not the bad version. 1:33:57.880 --> 1:34:01.080 You produced a lot of them, um and um. And 1:34:01.160 --> 1:34:03.640 I think like in terms of its limits and like 1:34:03.680 --> 1:34:06.360 what we can learn from it, Like, I think I 1:34:06.400 --> 1:34:08.759 think taking the police more seriously it was really important. 1:34:08.800 --> 1:34:10.560 I think taking police violence more seriously it was a 1:34:10.600 --> 1:34:15.040 really important legacy of occupy, I think, Um, I think 1:34:15.240 --> 1:34:19.680 pushing towards the limit of what total democracy meant a 1:34:19.680 --> 1:34:21.840 lot of people and Occupy remember that like a lot 1:34:21.880 --> 1:34:24.280 of Ron Paul people are like weirdo like and the 1:34:24.280 --> 1:34:27.320 Fed cranks and like right wingers like spoken Occupy and 1:34:27.320 --> 1:34:31.400 like that. That that total open populism of of Occupy 1:34:31.520 --> 1:34:34.960 I think was both probably its greatest strength and its 1:34:35.000 --> 1:34:37.400 ultimate limit, right, which was that like it was never 1:34:37.439 --> 1:34:40.200 going to be able to really like sharpen itself into 1:34:40.200 --> 1:34:41.960 the into the knife and it wanted to be to 1:34:42.080 --> 1:34:45.920 like really change the face of global capital or whatever. Um, 1:34:45.960 --> 1:34:49.760 because of because there were so many white, yeah, middle 1:34:49.760 --> 1:34:52.640 class and like like a bunch of the like a 1:34:52.640 --> 1:34:54.719 lot of the like the current for right media people 1:34:54.720 --> 1:34:57.240 came out it like Center Fairbanks was like an occupy 1:34:57.320 --> 1:35:02.840 streamer Spool, Yeah, you're welcome. For Tim Poole UMO was 1:35:02.880 --> 1:35:05.439 filming on the last day, a bunch of us um 1:35:05.479 --> 1:35:08.840 doing some things, and Tim Pool did not manage to 1:35:08.880 --> 1:35:11.920 continue filming, is all I'll say. And after that is 1:35:11.960 --> 1:35:18.759 when he started swinging right, So you're welcome over. Um anyway, Sorry, 1:35:18.760 --> 1:35:20.800 that guy is a fucking asshole. He was an asshole then. Though. 1:35:20.880 --> 1:35:22.120 I think what's important to know is that a lot 1:35:22.120 --> 1:35:24.360 of these people were suss as hell back then to 1:35:24.520 --> 1:35:27.479 occupy folks, like they were around and occupy because of 1:35:27.479 --> 1:35:30.040 the nature of occupy, like but like they were we 1:35:30.120 --> 1:35:31.920 already didn't like them, you know, like a lot of 1:35:31.920 --> 1:35:35.720 these people were already unpopular, were already disliked in the movement. Um. 1:35:35.800 --> 1:35:40.280 So yeah, um, but yeah, I think I think so, 1:35:40.320 --> 1:35:43.599 I think you know, there is there there are all 1:35:43.640 --> 1:35:48.880 these different legacies um from it that I think, um, Ultimately, 1:35:49.120 --> 1:35:52.559 the legacy things that emerged are much more important than occupy. Um. 1:35:52.600 --> 1:35:54.080 I think, you know, one of the things about it 1:35:54.120 --> 1:35:56.680 was that it really was just like the reemergence of 1:35:56.680 --> 1:36:00.080 street politics, and like, like as the re emergence of 1:36:00.120 --> 1:36:03.360 street politics, like it was pretty limited, and it was 1:36:03.439 --> 1:36:07.800 not that effective at changing things, um. And also it 1:36:07.840 --> 1:36:10.040 was incredibly effective at leading to those last decades of 1:36:10.040 --> 1:36:12.640 struggle in the US. And I think you can't, you know, 1:36:12.680 --> 1:36:15.639 I think there's a tendency to want to judge movements 1:36:15.720 --> 1:36:21.160 by the immediate results that they produce, you know. Um. 1:36:21.320 --> 1:36:23.640 And like, you know, I think was it is? Am 1:36:23.640 --> 1:36:25.519 I about to quote now? I think I am? Was it? 1:36:25.640 --> 1:36:27.439 Like when when he gets asked, you know, what was 1:36:27.479 --> 1:36:30.080 the what was the you know, in in the twentieth 1:36:30.080 --> 1:36:32.439 anniversary of the Chinese Revolution, he gets asked, like what 1:36:32.520 --> 1:36:36.120 was the what was the outcome of the Chinese Revolution? 1:36:36.160 --> 1:36:38.000 He says, it's too early to tell, right, Like, I think, 1:36:38.040 --> 1:36:40.479 like that maybe that's I don't remember who that is. 1:36:41.320 --> 1:36:44.960 They were right, Yeah, they were right. A lot more 1:36:45.000 --> 1:36:47.920 people died than what we thought. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they 1:36:48.560 --> 1:36:54.360 successfully transitioned to capitalism and they yeah, yeah, it was yeah, so, um, 1:36:54.400 --> 1:36:56.280 so what was the result of occupy. It's too early 1:36:56.320 --> 1:36:59.760 to tell, um, but I think like I also think 1:36:59.800 --> 1:37:02.080 like the things that we've talked about here um, where 1:37:02.080 --> 1:37:04.560 we're core components of what what why it matters. I 1:37:04.840 --> 1:37:06.639 do think one other kind of effect that it's had. 1:37:06.680 --> 1:37:08.360 And It's hard for me to gauge this because I've 1:37:08.360 --> 1:37:12.320 only been around post occupy, but I feel like now 1:37:12.360 --> 1:37:16.480 when people try to get stuff started, they really fall 1:37:16.600 --> 1:37:19.680 kind of into an occupy mindset where they're like, the 1:37:19.720 --> 1:37:23.519 only way to make this successful is to hold this space. 1:37:23.840 --> 1:37:26.040 And I think that is really a default way that 1:37:26.320 --> 1:37:29.480 even more experience, like both experienced organizers and new organizers 1:37:29.880 --> 1:37:31.960 really kind of keep you saying the word default. It's 1:37:31.960 --> 1:37:34.120 because like that's just that's just really like what they 1:37:34.200 --> 1:37:36.240 go into. You saw this in a lot of different 1:37:36.240 --> 1:37:38.120 cities last year. Really they like people trying to set 1:37:38.160 --> 1:37:41.080 up spaces to hold um. A lot of them did 1:37:41.080 --> 1:37:43.680 not work, you know a lot of them. A lot 1:37:43.720 --> 1:37:45.160 of them were like, oh, yeah, we're trying to try 1:37:45.200 --> 1:37:47.519 to hold the space for like an hour, because then 1:37:47.560 --> 1:37:49.760 the cops pushed us out right and you know, in 1:37:49.800 --> 1:37:52.320 a place like the chairs they got extended out a 1:37:52.400 --> 1:37:55.280 bit longer that Chad has had its own problems. Um 1:37:55.520 --> 1:37:58.120 and other cities in the Pacific Northwest. This happened a city, 1:37:59.479 --> 1:38:01.680 it happened. It happened a lot of places. I mean, 1:38:01.720 --> 1:38:03.920 like I think George Floyd Square is maybe one of 1:38:03.920 --> 1:38:08.000 the more honestly successful ones, um for how they were 1:38:08.040 --> 1:38:11.760 able to actually kind of keep police away, and they 1:38:11.800 --> 1:38:14.800 did they avoided turning it into this big media thing 1:38:14.880 --> 1:38:18.760 like like with the Chaz did um. And I don't know, 1:38:19.040 --> 1:38:22.680 I think I grew very I saw a lot of 1:38:22.680 --> 1:38:25.280 people kind of grow kind of frustrated with this like 1:38:25.360 --> 1:38:29.280 kind of occupy mentality because what that kind of results 1:38:29.280 --> 1:38:32.840 in is people just setting up outside of a police 1:38:32.880 --> 1:38:35.479 headquarters and trying to stay there for as long as possible, 1:38:35.520 --> 1:38:38.120 which is like that's not doing anything, You're just kind 1:38:38.160 --> 1:38:41.040 of waiting to get beat up. Um. Yeah. Yeah, but 1:38:41.080 --> 1:38:43.439 it's complicated though, right, Like in defense of that tactic, 1:38:44.240 --> 1:38:46.559 like I think like like that was also very color. 1:38:46.640 --> 1:38:49.000 That was also very core to Ferguson. Right, they held 1:38:49.040 --> 1:38:51.559 West Florescence for a week and a half. Now, they 1:38:51.560 --> 1:38:53.360 did it much. They didn't do it by setting up 1:38:53.360 --> 1:38:55.559 tents and sitting there. Um. And also like you know, 1:38:55.640 --> 1:38:57.479 like like a thing that gets forgotten a lot in 1:38:57.520 --> 1:38:59.280 the lot in the histories. You know, Occupy Ice it 1:38:59.280 --> 1:39:01.400 was pretty smile. I was big here in Philly, it 1:39:01.479 --> 1:39:03.840 was it was massive here in Portland. Yeah. Yeah. So 1:39:03.960 --> 1:39:06.639 so like there were moments when that tactic really does 1:39:06.800 --> 1:39:08.800 like it's important to have a space to meet in, 1:39:08.840 --> 1:39:10.599 and I think we did learn that, but I also 1:39:10.640 --> 1:39:13.479 agree that it has become like any tactic that works 1:39:13.520 --> 1:39:16.559 once it becomes a fetish, right. Yeah, it's always trying 1:39:16.560 --> 1:39:19.599 to balance space because like you know, the two big 1:39:19.680 --> 1:39:21.960 things that have happened the past ten years, it's occupying 1:39:22.040 --> 1:39:25.000 Hong Kong. So people try to balance these two kind 1:39:25.040 --> 1:39:28.920 of almost opposing things like hold this space and be water. 1:39:29.040 --> 1:39:31.080 That's kind of the two things that people yell at 1:39:31.080 --> 1:39:33.280 the street back and forth, and no one really knows 1:39:33.320 --> 1:39:36.080 what to do because we're just yelling slogans and and 1:39:36.280 --> 1:39:39.880 and I they're saying about this. So they're like the 1:39:39.960 --> 1:39:42.160 one time the people in Hong Kong got pinned down 1:39:42.400 --> 1:39:44.920 when when they had to they had in versity siege, 1:39:44.960 --> 1:39:47.439 it was a ship show, like you know what I 1:39:47.479 --> 1:39:50.840 was like the people in Hong Kong, like, you know, okay, 1:39:50.840 --> 1:39:53.240 like even when they're like they they did not have 1:39:53.479 --> 1:39:56.280 by by by the time you're getting to the sort 1:39:56.320 --> 1:39:59.760 of decision of the universities like that, like you know, 1:39:59.840 --> 1:40:03.400 like they had like Moloto they had like like Molotov workshops, 1:40:03.439 --> 1:40:05.799 Like there were people like standing on the roof shooting 1:40:05.800 --> 1:40:07.360 bows and arrows and cops and it like it just 1:40:07.439 --> 1:40:10.000 wasn't enough. And I mean and part partially personally, that 1:40:10.000 --> 1:40:12.519 has to do with the fact that, like you know, 1:40:12.800 --> 1:40:15.360 Hong Kong is in a uniquely bad position insofar as 1:40:15.400 --> 1:40:17.680 it is one city and it's like the the the 1:40:17.720 --> 1:40:20.679 only possible way that asssocal we've been in Hong Kong, 1:40:21.360 --> 1:40:25.240 like ever just doesn't get crushed by just the fact 1:40:25.240 --> 1:40:27.559 that they're outnumbered, like a thousand to one is if 1:40:27.680 --> 1:40:31.240 it spreads. But like yeah, and it became this you know, 1:40:31.280 --> 1:40:35.360 like that that moments like yeah that this that that 1:40:35.400 --> 1:40:38.200 the whole problem with with friend to hold space because 1:40:38.240 --> 1:40:40.839 really apparent there because even if you have an extremely 1:40:40.920 --> 1:40:45.560 large number of people right like like attacking one isolated 1:40:45.640 --> 1:40:47.680 space in mass even think the cops are really good 1:40:47.680 --> 1:40:49.439 at and I think they're really bad at is trying 1:40:49.439 --> 1:40:52.759 to deal with like you know, like five hundred people, 1:40:53.160 --> 1:40:55.640 like seven hundred instances of five hundred people going through 1:40:55.640 --> 1:40:58.599 places because it just aren't enough of them. But yeah, 1:40:58.600 --> 1:41:01.639 that was what was that Like the head of who 1:41:01.680 --> 1:41:05.280 wasn't it was a big in the in the National Police. 1:41:05.280 --> 1:41:08.160 In the National Police, uh you know whatever, um said 1:41:08.200 --> 1:41:10.559 that like we can very easily handle one march of 1:41:10.560 --> 1:41:12.519 ten thousand people, but we can't handle ten marches of 1:41:12.600 --> 1:41:15.320 one people. It was you gotta see this in Chicago, 1:41:15.360 --> 1:41:16.479 feel like this is this is this is how the 1:41:16.520 --> 1:41:19.320 police lost control of of of the miracle Mile was 1:41:19.320 --> 1:41:21.599 like yeah, it was just there's people everywhere for everywhere 1:41:21.760 --> 1:41:25.160 and yeah I don't know, yeah I know, And that's 1:41:25.200 --> 1:41:26.840 and that's how that's that's what you know. I mean 1:41:26.880 --> 1:41:28.599 certainly in Philly where it was where it was very 1:41:28.680 --> 1:41:30.640 very powerful. That's what the George Floyd rebellion looked like, 1:41:30.720 --> 1:41:33.280 was with people were everywhere in Philly, all the neighborhoods. 1:41:33.439 --> 1:41:36.120 You know, people didn't you know, like we were out there, 1:41:36.160 --> 1:41:40.120 you know whatever, um and like they're like people didn't 1:41:40.160 --> 1:41:41.920 know what was going on three block South, you know 1:41:41.960 --> 1:41:43.519 what I mean. Like it was like that, like there 1:41:43.560 --> 1:41:46.639 was just there were fights happening everywhere and under those conditions, 1:41:46.640 --> 1:41:49.680 the police can't can't, no matter how militarized they are, 1:41:49.680 --> 1:41:52.960 they can't act um effectively anyway they can act, they 1:41:53.479 --> 1:41:57.080 certainly will. They will act like pigs. Um. But but 1:41:57.160 --> 1:42:00.040 I think, like, yeah, so I think that that that 1:42:00.200 --> 1:42:02.400 sort of dispersion, But I think the other there's so 1:42:02.479 --> 1:42:05.120 there's I'm going to promote a really really weird o 1:42:05.240 --> 1:42:11.280 crank book right now twentie century like literary weirdos. Guy 1:42:11.680 --> 1:42:16.839 uh alias Connetti um Italian wrote this book called Crowds 1:42:16.840 --> 1:42:20.040 and Power, where he attempts to he attempts to describe 1:42:20.080 --> 1:42:23.600 the entirety of human history and anthropology in terms of crowds. 1:42:23.600 --> 1:42:27.320 This is obviously impossible and ridiculous. But that book has 1:42:27.360 --> 1:42:31.440 the best descriptions of crowd dynamics I have ever encountered anywhere. 1:42:32.120 --> 1:42:34.240 And I like, I like people who take big swings 1:42:34.240 --> 1:42:37.120 because they end up they miss miss has lots of 1:42:37.160 --> 1:42:39.559 interesting stuff. Um. I think that's why people like Settlers 1:42:39.560 --> 1:42:41.240 by Jason Kai so much. Like I think the thesis 1:42:41.240 --> 1:42:43.200 wasn't great, but there's so much incredible stuff in that 1:42:43.240 --> 1:42:46.040 book that like it works anyway. Um that having a 1:42:46.080 --> 1:42:48.280 really wild thesis allows you to like really like get 1:42:48.320 --> 1:42:50.840 into some Yeah. So anyway, one of the things that 1:42:50.960 --> 1:42:54.880 Connetti talks about in that book is that UM a crowd, UH, 1:42:55.080 --> 1:42:57.400 an open crowd, as he describes it, an open crowd 1:42:58.000 --> 1:43:02.040 is UM must constantly be growing and the moment it 1:43:02.080 --> 1:43:05.680 stops growing, it starts shrinking. Right like this, I think 1:43:05.760 --> 1:43:09.720 that dynamic in terms of both movement and like a 1:43:09.800 --> 1:43:13.040 momentary protest or riot, right is like really real, I 1:43:13.080 --> 1:43:16.639 can And I think one of the things that UM, 1:43:16.880 --> 1:43:19.280 particularly organizers are trained to do and like that that 1:43:19.280 --> 1:43:21.200 that we learned to do, especially in law periods, and 1:43:21.200 --> 1:43:23.479 we're like organizing these little you know, you know, these 1:43:23.520 --> 1:43:27.439 little crystallized groups of like hard cadre or whatever. Is that? 1:43:27.479 --> 1:43:30.120 Like you that like what we learn as organized is 1:43:30.160 --> 1:43:34.040 something that is defendable. But once you start defending something, 1:43:34.280 --> 1:43:37.800 you start losing it because we cannot take on the 1:43:37.840 --> 1:43:40.920 state or the police in a head on confrontation. UM. 1:43:41.040 --> 1:43:43.920 And this is this can be confusing because sometimes you 1:43:43.920 --> 1:43:46.040 can successfully defend for a few weeks, maybe even a 1:43:46.040 --> 1:43:49.200 few months. You can defend a space sometimes, but once 1:43:49.240 --> 1:43:52.360 people get really interested in the defending, then they begin 1:43:52.439 --> 1:43:56.360 forming bureaucracies, governments, internal policing, security forces, whatever it is, 1:43:56.640 --> 1:43:59.840 they start becoming the like the the they start under 1:43:59.880 --> 1:44:01.639 my ning the very thing that made it powerful, which 1:44:01.720 --> 1:44:04.840 was the sudden, rapid growth, the sudden like you know, 1:44:04.880 --> 1:44:08.760 like like big explosion of power and self recognition that 1:44:09.080 --> 1:44:11.680 comes in the beginning of movement. And I think, I 1:44:11.760 --> 1:44:16.040 don't think there's a way to will that problem away, 1:44:16.160 --> 1:44:17.880 Like I don't think we can just like think our 1:44:17.920 --> 1:44:20.439 way out of it, like it's just a problem. But 1:44:20.520 --> 1:44:22.559 I do think that like one thing that we could 1:44:22.560 --> 1:44:24.680 take from the experience of occupy and the experience the 1:44:24.760 --> 1:44:27.640 last decade is that like if you do, you know, 1:44:27.720 --> 1:44:29.920 consider yourself someone who wants to participate in these kind 1:44:29.920 --> 1:44:31.799 of movements, which is probably why you're listening to this podcast. 1:44:32.200 --> 1:44:36.960 Um right now, Um, don't try and defend, Like, don't 1:44:36.960 --> 1:44:39.439 try and defend. Like some things will need to be 1:44:39.479 --> 1:44:42.760 defended sometimes obviously, but like if your main thing is 1:44:42.760 --> 1:44:46.799 like the thing, we should never defend something we've achieved 1:44:46.880 --> 1:44:49.479 so far. Um, we should never not be willing to 1:44:49.520 --> 1:44:52.120 destroy it in order to like build something bigger, right, 1:44:52.439 --> 1:44:55.240 Like we should never no movement thing that we have, 1:44:55.640 --> 1:44:58.200 be it an occupy part, be it be it like 1:44:58.479 --> 1:45:02.320 a take in space to sending that should never outweigh 1:45:02.439 --> 1:45:06.639 the possibility of expanding. And if that's our strategic mindset, Obviously, 1:45:06.720 --> 1:45:08.840 moment to moment you can't just be thinking that constantly. 1:45:09.040 --> 1:45:12.160 But the strategic mindset is like what we have now 1:45:13.080 --> 1:45:15.639 is only good to the extent that it can turn 1:45:15.680 --> 1:45:19.439 into something more UM rather than we have to defend 1:45:19.479 --> 1:45:21.840 what we have now. If you can think that way, 1:45:22.200 --> 1:45:25.840 I think it opens up a lot of strategic possibilities UM. 1:45:25.880 --> 1:45:27.920 And I think it's it's what has worked over the 1:45:27.960 --> 1:45:30.960 last decade that I've seen is UM when people attack, 1:45:31.240 --> 1:45:33.600 when people expand, when people try to do try to 1:45:33.600 --> 1:45:37.080 do new stuff. It doesn't always work and it doesn't 1:45:37.120 --> 1:45:40.880 always hold. But that's what When that stuff stops happening, 1:45:40.920 --> 1:45:43.040 the movement is doomed. I think. I think that I 1:45:43.080 --> 1:45:46.040 think that's a really good way to wrap things up. 1:45:46.080 --> 1:45:48.760 I think that's a nice, beautiful sentiment. I kind of 1:45:48.840 --> 1:45:51.880 view this type of thing in more than just protests 1:45:51.880 --> 1:45:53.680 and you know, and into different pastors of life. I 1:45:53.680 --> 1:45:57.680 think you can always learn from past experiences, from past struggles, 1:45:57.720 --> 1:46:00.000 but if you try to perfectly replicate them, your as 1:46:00.000 --> 1:46:03.120 totally gonna fail. You can you should always learn and 1:46:03.160 --> 1:46:05.160 move on, but you should not be focused on any 1:46:05.240 --> 1:46:09.639 kind of replication. Is there any of your bookstore writings 1:46:09.640 --> 1:46:13.080 you'd want to plug before we wrap up here? Sure? Yeah, 1:46:13.479 --> 1:46:15.519 I mean I wrote a book that came out last year, 1:46:15.720 --> 1:46:20.000 UM called in Defensive Looting. UM. Came out UM with 1:46:20.040 --> 1:46:24.880 bold type. UM. I am currently also writing. UM. I'm 1:46:24.920 --> 1:46:27.559 obsessed with movies. I write a movie review UM column 1:46:27.680 --> 1:46:30.840 for the Al Jazeera plus UM I did not know 1:46:30.840 --> 1:46:33.400 news letter. Yeah, the news letter sub stack. UM. If 1:46:33.439 --> 1:46:35.600 you want to read. I mean it's really it is 1:46:35.640 --> 1:46:37.679 really movie reviews. So if you want, you know, cranky 1:46:37.680 --> 1:46:41.080 anarchist theory, it's not the spot for you. UM. Otherwise, Yeah, 1:46:41.080 --> 1:46:44.040 I'm I'm on a pretty long social media break right now, 1:46:44.080 --> 1:46:47.200 but good for you there. Eventually I'll probably come back 1:46:47.479 --> 1:46:52.559 inevitably unfortunately. Yeah, you know, I just have I have 1:46:52.640 --> 1:46:56.439 writing popping up every every now and then, and UM, 1:46:56.520 --> 1:46:59.720 and if you read it, I would appreciate it. Well. Yeah, 1:47:00.000 --> 1:47:02.479 totally wonderful. Thank you, and yeah, thank you for so 1:47:02.600 --> 1:47:07.880 much for coming on to talk about UM occupying stuff 1:47:07.920 --> 1:47:10.479 that I think a lot of people hear about, but 1:47:10.920 --> 1:47:13.120 you know, at least all of my generation does not 1:47:14.080 --> 1:47:18.120 fully kind of grasp it. Um it is. It is 1:47:18.200 --> 1:47:21.960 literally my pleasure. Like I you know, I wasted so 1:47:22.120 --> 1:47:23.960 much of my life thinking about this. I'm so glad 1:47:23.960 --> 1:47:26.000 to be able to share some of it with some people. 1:47:27.800 --> 1:47:29.599 I'm so so glad you're able to join us too. 1:47:29.760 --> 1:47:31.680 This is I've I've been looking forward to us for 1:47:31.680 --> 1:47:36.040 a while. Yeah, that's very excited. All right, that wraps 1:47:36.120 --> 1:47:39.400 up us today. You can find us on Twitter and 1:47:39.400 --> 1:47:43.000 Instagram at cool Zone Media and Happen Here pod. We'll 1:47:43.040 --> 1:48:03.479 be back in for a few more episodes this week. Audios. Uh, 1:48:03.520 --> 1:48:08.439 that was the introduction, I did it, Sophie. Sophie is saying, 1:48:08.439 --> 1:48:11.400 that's an acceptable introduction. You know what podcast this is. 1:48:11.439 --> 1:48:12.920 You clicked on it, so I don't need to tell 1:48:12.960 --> 1:48:14.639 you the title. I don't need to say who we are. 1:48:14.640 --> 1:48:17.680 I'm just going to dive right into the fucking episode. 1:48:18.280 --> 1:48:20.280 No I'm not. This is It could Happen Here a 1:48:20.320 --> 1:48:23.800 podcast about things falling apart and uh and what to 1:48:23.880 --> 1:48:27.160 maybe do to to arrest that and do something better 1:48:27.160 --> 1:48:30.200 in its place, and uh. You know, folks who are 1:48:30.200 --> 1:48:34.000 are regular listeners who listened to the original scripted episodes 1:48:34.040 --> 1:48:36.400 of it could happen here the first fifteen episodes, which 1:48:36.439 --> 1:48:40.200 I certainly recommend to everybody. Know that one area in 1:48:40.240 --> 1:48:44.320 which I kind of separate from a lot of particularly 1:48:44.360 --> 1:48:46.639 more liberal folks and even some folks on the left 1:48:46.760 --> 1:48:50.120 is an embrace of the fact that, uh, firearms are 1:48:50.160 --> 1:48:53.439 sometimes necessary tools, especially in times of collapse when things 1:48:53.439 --> 1:48:57.880 get bad. Um. Now that said, we're also not uh 1:48:58.280 --> 1:49:01.640 kind of gun culture people here. We try not, for 1:49:01.680 --> 1:49:04.920 one thing, recommend that everybody necessarily pick up a gun. 1:49:04.960 --> 1:49:08.080 There's a lot of people, perfectly nice people who shouldn't 1:49:08.120 --> 1:49:09.760 have them, who don't need to have them, you know, 1:49:09.880 --> 1:49:12.200 if you're dealing with suicidal ideation or whatever. We're not. 1:49:12.280 --> 1:49:14.200 The point is, we try to be very careful about 1:49:14.200 --> 1:49:18.799 how we we talk about firearms as a potentially useful 1:49:18.840 --> 1:49:21.680 you've been potentially necessary tool in the times that we're in. 1:49:22.240 --> 1:49:24.679 And today, since we're a few weeks into this, we've 1:49:24.720 --> 1:49:28.280 covered producing food, We've covered some medical stuff. We've talked 1:49:28.320 --> 1:49:31.759 about uh, community organizing, and a number of other things 1:49:31.800 --> 1:49:34.880 that I think our priorities for most people before you know, 1:49:35.400 --> 1:49:38.000 getting strapped. Today we're gonna talk a little bit about 1:49:38.040 --> 1:49:41.360 getting strapped. And my guest today is Paul. Paul, do 1:49:41.360 --> 1:49:43.439 you want to kind of introduce your background in brief 1:49:43.520 --> 1:49:47.000 so people know why why you're on here. Sure, Robert, 1:49:48.120 --> 1:49:51.400 I was in the Marine Corps and infantry, and after 1:49:51.479 --> 1:49:55.600 that I went to security consulting and then to the 1:49:55.640 --> 1:49:59.080 Federal Protective Service and finally the A T F some 1:49:59.240 --> 1:50:06.320 of our funnest agencies. Yeah, all my favorite organizations there. Well, 1:50:06.360 --> 1:50:08.200 they're better than the the what is it, the f 1:50:08.280 --> 1:50:10.720 d A. Yeah, they beat the f d A. I 1:50:10.760 --> 1:50:12.960 mean in terms of body count, they're certainly better than 1:50:13.000 --> 1:50:17.960 the f d A. And what what do you do now, 1:50:18.080 --> 1:50:22.040 Paul that you're you're you're out of that line of work. Uh, well, 1:50:22.040 --> 1:50:24.000 I do two things. I got a day job at 1:50:24.040 --> 1:50:28.680 disney World and then, uh, the side gig is we 1:50:28.880 --> 1:50:34.599 run a explosives and machine guns supply company, also body armor, 1:50:35.200 --> 1:50:38.599 a handful of other things, but that's the big thing 1:50:38.680 --> 1:50:43.600 is destructive devices. Yeah. And uh, you've you've got I 1:50:43.640 --> 1:50:46.200 think experience that a lot of people, particularly on this 1:50:46.240 --> 1:50:48.360 side of the political I'll lack. You know. One of 1:50:48.400 --> 1:50:52.120 the one of the downsides of kind of rejecting the 1:50:52.160 --> 1:50:55.000 federal government in the military and all its forms, is 1:50:55.040 --> 1:50:57.240 that there's a lot of people who may accept the 1:50:57.320 --> 1:51:00.040 validity of being armed and don't really have much in 1:51:00.040 --> 1:51:03.400 the way of practical training, and firearms are tools that 1:51:03.520 --> 1:51:06.840 to use most efficlessly do require training. In practice. You 1:51:06.880 --> 1:51:09.880 can't just um, you can pick them up and be dangerous, 1:51:09.880 --> 1:51:12.200 but not in a way that is particularly protective to 1:51:12.240 --> 1:51:17.320 you in your community. Oh yeah, Um, so I wanted 1:51:17.360 --> 1:51:20.519 to talk about kind of recommendations and and everything. We 1:51:20.560 --> 1:51:23.120 talk about nothing. We're not talking in the context of 1:51:23.120 --> 1:51:26.360 forming a militia or in the context of you know, 1:51:26.560 --> 1:51:29.720 showing up with guns to to yell at people at 1:51:29.720 --> 1:51:31.840 a protest. If that's the thing you're choosing to do, 1:51:32.200 --> 1:51:34.679 that's a whole different ball game. We're talking about, um, 1:51:35.280 --> 1:51:39.160 kind of responsibly arming yourself and your community in a 1:51:39.200 --> 1:51:42.120 way that is not going to get you in legal trouble. Um. 1:51:42.200 --> 1:51:44.320 It is also not going to endanger them. Because one 1:51:44.320 --> 1:51:47.360 of the things you have to accept about firearms is that, um, 1:51:47.400 --> 1:51:51.200 there's a risk you know, related to owning a firearm. Um. 1:51:51.240 --> 1:51:54.240 Not just the risk that like you know, suicide risk 1:51:54.360 --> 1:51:55.880 raises if you have a gun in the house, but 1:51:55.960 --> 1:51:58.799 just um, if you don't use them properly. Even carrying 1:51:58.800 --> 1:52:02.320 a gun, you know, it's not unheard of for people 1:52:02.360 --> 1:52:04.560 carrying guns to have those weapons taken from them and 1:52:04.680 --> 1:52:07.040 used against them. It happens to police, and it happens 1:52:07.080 --> 1:52:11.360 to to armed citizens. So it's it's a matter of um, 1:52:11.400 --> 1:52:14.160 you know. I think when you accept that you're going 1:52:14.200 --> 1:52:17.960 to be armed, there's something incumbent upon you to understand 1:52:18.000 --> 1:52:19.880 the risks of being armed. And I guess that's kind 1:52:19.880 --> 1:52:21.360 of where I want to start, Like, what are some 1:52:21.400 --> 1:52:24.519 of the big pitfalls you see people uh fall into, 1:52:24.600 --> 1:52:29.280 like um that I think traditionally training is supposed to 1:52:29.280 --> 1:52:34.120 help allay to some degree. Uh. Well, probably number one 1:52:34.240 --> 1:52:37.040 is uh Grandpa has gone in the closet that's been 1:52:37.040 --> 1:52:40.200 there for forty years unfired, and somebody just picks it 1:52:40.320 --> 1:52:44.040 up and throw some ammo in it to go Huna deer, 1:52:44.120 --> 1:52:46.960 and you know it's got a barrel obstruction or something 1:52:46.960 --> 1:52:50.679 that just blows up, you know. Um. But number two 1:52:51.000 --> 1:52:54.639 and and the one that can be mitigated by training 1:52:54.720 --> 1:52:59.439 rather than just general uh not being stupid, because it's 1:52:59.479 --> 1:53:01.280 kind of stupid to pick something up that's really old 1:53:01.320 --> 1:53:04.960 and just try to shoot it is um not shooting yourself. 1:53:06.080 --> 1:53:08.519 And when you do go out to the range, not 1:53:08.560 --> 1:53:11.760 shooting other people, and then not shooting people in your 1:53:11.760 --> 1:53:18.160 own home. Um, you know, you don't as much as 1:53:18.160 --> 1:53:20.680 you might want to, say, defend your own home. Do 1:53:20.760 --> 1:53:23.880 you want to shoot your wife when she comes home 1:53:23.920 --> 1:53:27.640 at two thirty in the morning, uh, after work and 1:53:27.640 --> 1:53:31.320 wakes you up? And there are ways to mitigate that, 1:53:31.520 --> 1:53:35.240 and and it's really easy and it's really cheap. So yeah, 1:53:35.320 --> 1:53:37.639 let's let's let's start with some of those just if 1:53:37.680 --> 1:53:40.000 you're if you're new too, if you've decided I need 1:53:40.040 --> 1:53:43.600 a gun for whatever reason, you purchase a gun. Um, 1:53:43.640 --> 1:53:45.800 you know, I think the most basic first things are 1:53:46.479 --> 1:53:49.280 in terms of like actually making that relatively safe. Is 1:53:49.360 --> 1:53:52.000 number one, knowing which which kind of firearm to purchase? 1:53:52.120 --> 1:53:55.120 And number two, And these are not in order of importance, 1:53:55.120 --> 1:53:57.920 These are both very important. Number two is securing that 1:53:57.960 --> 1:54:01.439 weapon properly, as opposed to just having it laying loose 1:54:01.520 --> 1:54:04.120 in the house, which is never the best place. The 1:54:04.120 --> 1:54:09.960 best way to store a firearm, is it. Um, yeah, 1:54:10.040 --> 1:54:14.560 I mean I I own a number of personal firearms. Um, 1:54:14.600 --> 1:54:17.360 you know, I'm in my office right now where I 1:54:17.360 --> 1:54:19.040 got a locked door where nobody can get in, and 1:54:19.080 --> 1:54:22.960 I got a gun safe back behind the monitors. Um, 1:54:23.080 --> 1:54:27.599 and you know, I'm comfortable with that. But if if 1:54:27.640 --> 1:54:29.559 it was in a place where kids could get at it, 1:54:29.560 --> 1:54:31.280 you don't want to just stuff it in, uh, in 1:54:31.320 --> 1:54:34.280 a sock in the closet, which is actually what my 1:54:34.360 --> 1:54:36.440 mom did when I was a kid. Yeah, I mean 1:54:36.480 --> 1:54:40.480 safe storage and I mean really being able to identify 1:54:40.720 --> 1:54:45.360 your target is probably the biggest preventer of like inter 1:54:45.520 --> 1:54:47.880 family accident because I know, you know, we do talk 1:54:47.880 --> 1:54:51.840 about safe storage, kids and all that. But um, back 1:54:51.880 --> 1:54:54.560 to the wife coming home, if you just put a 1:54:54.640 --> 1:54:58.320 light on your gun, a hundred dollar light, you can 1:54:58.520 --> 1:55:00.200 look at the thing that you're shooting in the middle 1:55:00.200 --> 1:55:03.240 of the night and uh not shoot someone you don't 1:55:03.240 --> 1:55:05.880 want to shoot. Yeah. I would go so far as 1:55:05.920 --> 1:55:08.400 to say that, like, if you've got a home defense 1:55:08.400 --> 1:55:11.320 weapon without a light on it, um, you don't fully 1:55:11.360 --> 1:55:16.920 have a home defense weapon. Yeah, you know, Um, it's 1:55:16.920 --> 1:55:21.400 gonna be useless in roughly half of the situation. And statistically, 1:55:21.440 --> 1:55:23.440 like if you're looking at when people are actually tend 1:55:23.480 --> 1:55:25.760 to be endangered in their own homes, the vast majority 1:55:25.800 --> 1:55:29.560 of the situations in which you might be in danger. Um, 1:55:29.640 --> 1:55:32.760 when it comes to weapons selection, Uh, this is another 1:55:32.840 --> 1:55:34.600 area where like if you go on maybe one of 1:55:34.640 --> 1:55:36.879 the worst places in the world to have this discussion 1:55:36.880 --> 1:55:40.600 as Twitter, because everybody has the opinions on Twitter. Um. 1:55:40.800 --> 1:55:43.600 I tend to say because I think most people when 1:55:43.600 --> 1:55:45.960 they're looking for a first gun, if they're if they're committed, 1:55:46.120 --> 1:55:48.120 just like thinking of personal defense, they're going to go 1:55:48.160 --> 1:55:50.360 for like a lock or something. And I think unless 1:55:50.400 --> 1:55:53.000 you're planning on carrying a gun, And you can correct 1:55:53.000 --> 1:55:54.920 me if you disagree here, but I tend to think 1:55:55.000 --> 1:55:58.440 a handgun again, unless you're intending on carrying a concealed weapon, 1:55:58.960 --> 1:56:01.440 is the last thing that you should own as a 1:56:01.480 --> 1:56:06.120 gun owner. Um. I got a mixed opinion on that. 1:56:06.400 --> 1:56:12.400 I mean, yeah, I think that, uh, the handiness of 1:56:12.440 --> 1:56:17.120 a handgun can outweigh some of the issues. I know 1:56:17.200 --> 1:56:21.800 you guys dealt with fires up there, we have hurricanes. Um, 1:56:21.920 --> 1:56:25.520 being able to stick a handgun into a backpack you 1:56:25.600 --> 1:56:30.840 know it can go a long way, or being ab um, 1:56:31.120 --> 1:56:34.360 keep keep it on you in your car because here 1:56:34.160 --> 1:56:38.360 we're depend on state laws. Everything you say depends on 1:56:38.440 --> 1:56:41.240 state laws. Yeah, there are states where you can yeah. Yeah, 1:56:41.280 --> 1:56:43.440 if you're in California and you're in one of the 1:56:43.480 --> 1:56:47.040 counties that it doesn't issue a concealed carry of license 1:56:47.080 --> 1:56:48.840 like l A. It's really hard to get one. From 1:56:48.880 --> 1:56:51.160 what I understand, you got to get to San Berndino 1:56:51.240 --> 1:56:53.040 if you want to get one of those. Yeah, I mean, 1:56:53.120 --> 1:56:55.960 first off, like tooth, I got a short list of guns, 1:56:55.960 --> 1:56:58.480 and like two thirds of the list illegal in California. 1:56:58.880 --> 1:57:03.879 They're they're not roster. But for what's most usable against 1:57:04.240 --> 1:57:07.840 our most handy, it's probably a handgun. But if you're 1:57:07.880 --> 1:57:14.120 expecting a threat more than like thirty feet away, have 1:57:14.280 --> 1:57:17.080 something other than a handgun. Handguns they suck at hurting people, 1:57:17.120 --> 1:57:20.840 they suck at killing people. Yeah, they're they're ineffective. They're 1:57:20.880 --> 1:57:23.480 hard to use, I mean, say thirty ft away. But 1:57:23.520 --> 1:57:26.600 if you're not training regularly, hitting something reliably in a 1:57:26.640 --> 1:57:29.640 stressful situation at thirty with a hand can be difficult. 1:57:30.120 --> 1:57:33.720 It's not easy. Yeah, um, it's not easy, and I 1:57:33.960 --> 1:57:35.960 tend to recommend number one. There are some options, like 1:57:36.000 --> 1:57:38.520 even if you're sticking with a handgun, there are different 1:57:38.640 --> 1:57:42.120 kind of um like uh options for that. Like I 1:57:42.120 --> 1:57:45.480 I'm a big advocate of pistol caliber carbines, which is 1:57:45.520 --> 1:57:49.320 essentially the size of a small rifle so you can 1:57:49.440 --> 1:57:51.960 fit them easily in a backpack. Every backpack I've owned, 1:57:52.000 --> 1:57:54.080 you can you can stick something like um like a 1:57:54.120 --> 1:57:57.960 Sazy scorpion and without much difficulty. And because they're so 1:57:57.960 --> 1:58:00.200 When you're talking about what makes a weapon easy year 1:58:00.240 --> 1:58:03.080 to use, number one of the number one things is size. 1:58:03.120 --> 1:58:05.400 So the longer the barrel, the more accurate it is. 1:58:05.440 --> 1:58:07.800 The heavier the gun, the less recoil is a problem, 1:58:07.800 --> 1:58:10.400 the easier it is to use it. Range um and 1:58:10.480 --> 1:58:13.120 a pistol caliber carbine. You know, you stick a light 1:58:13.160 --> 1:58:17.560 on that. That's a really good home defense weapon. Oh absolutely, yeah, 1:58:17.600 --> 1:58:21.480 I mean especially uh people will argue about the different 1:58:21.480 --> 1:58:24.080 types of magazines, but if you buy one that takes 1:58:24.120 --> 1:58:27.840 a glock magazine and you have a glock, you can 1:58:27.920 --> 1:58:30.760 build a full little load out that's just takes all 1:58:30.800 --> 1:58:37.280 the same magazines. One is more accurate, one is a handgun, UM, 1:58:37.320 --> 1:58:39.800 and you know all the same AMMO. You're not having 1:58:39.800 --> 1:58:43.680 to uh figure out and read a bunch on on 1:58:44.000 --> 1:58:45.600 what kind of AMMO you need and stuff like that. 1:58:45.640 --> 1:58:48.080 You just buy one and it works for everything. Yeah, 1:58:48.120 --> 1:58:50.120 And when when you're talking about AMMO, I think one 1:58:50.120 --> 1:58:53.280 of the most important things, like especially if you're worried 1:58:53.320 --> 1:58:56.840 about a survival situation is availability? Um, which is the 1:58:56.920 --> 1:58:59.040 nice thing about like what we call the NATO caliber. 1:58:59.120 --> 1:59:02.280 So the NATO calibers are nine millimeter seven six two 1:59:02.280 --> 1:59:04.480 by fifty one better known as three o eight your 1:59:04.480 --> 1:59:09.320 grandpa's hunting rifle seven te um or it's thirty six 1:59:09.320 --> 1:59:12.560 but whatever, UM and then five five six slash two 1:59:12.560 --> 1:59:14.480 to three and those are the rounds that's like five 1:59:14.760 --> 1:59:17.760 six is the standard. That's what's in your bog standard 1:59:17.760 --> 1:59:22.440 a r UM. And so almost no matter what happens, UM, 1:59:22.520 --> 1:59:25.400 including you know Ammo crunches, you will be able to 1:59:25.480 --> 1:59:29.160 find some amounts of the calibers genital through your neigh 1:59:30.240 --> 1:59:32.280 and you're going to find a box of bullets. They 1:59:32.360 --> 1:59:33.680 might not even own a gun and they got a 1:59:33.720 --> 1:59:37.240 boxing nine millimeter. Yeah, everybody's got nine millionaire and UM. 1:59:37.560 --> 1:59:41.680 So yeah, I think that the basics of like, um, 1:59:42.400 --> 1:59:44.120 what to get if you're looking at kind of just 1:59:44.200 --> 1:59:47.640 a basic defensive arm. UM, you know how to store 1:59:47.720 --> 1:59:50.200 it safely? You know, those kind of questions are important, 1:59:51.000 --> 1:59:54.800 UM when it comes to training. Uh, what are some 1:59:54.920 --> 1:59:57.040 of in your opinion, like the mistakes that you see 1:59:57.120 --> 2:00:00.680 people make when it comes to kind of of practicing 2:00:00.760 --> 2:00:04.360 training with their weapon. Um, going to an n R 2:00:04.440 --> 2:00:08.200 a basic like four hour class and thinking that you 2:00:08.320 --> 2:00:13.040 are a god. Um, they're there are people who have 2:00:13.360 --> 2:00:18.160 spent um five days a week going to classes and 2:00:18.800 --> 2:00:21.800 doing training. Because there's practice and then there's training. Training 2:00:21.880 --> 2:00:25.560 is where someone teaches you something. Uh, practices where you 2:00:25.960 --> 2:00:28.720 go with what you're already taught. Right. Um, So there 2:00:28.840 --> 2:00:31.200 there are people that spend all that time and there's 2:00:31.240 --> 2:00:34.400 still not the best in the world. Um, there are 2:00:34.440 --> 2:00:37.680 people who do a ton of practice. Jerry Micklich, you know, 2:00:38.040 --> 2:00:39.440 I don't know if you ever seen him shoot, but 2:00:39.560 --> 2:00:43.200 he's uh, he's like the fastest gun in the world 2:00:43.320 --> 2:00:47.320 or something like that. Um, his videos are crazy. Oh yeah, yeah, 2:00:47.360 --> 2:00:50.480 I mean he'll he'll outshoot a full auto gun. Yeah, 2:00:50.600 --> 2:00:54.040 with with revolvers and it's just like, you know, it's 2:00:54.080 --> 2:00:57.600 just absolutely mind blowing. Um. But now he's like he's 2:00:57.640 --> 2:00:59.440 like he's like Michael Jordan or something. You know, you 2:00:59.480 --> 2:01:04.320 just get people who have it's just that natural ability. Um, 2:01:05.360 --> 2:01:08.920 certainly married with a practicing But yeah, continue, if if 2:01:08.960 --> 2:01:12.320 you had a fight, a gunfight, which they really don't 2:01:12.360 --> 2:01:13.840 happen that much, but if you had a gun fight 2:01:13.920 --> 2:01:18.040 between Um, a guy with a high point C nine 2:01:18.640 --> 2:01:24.720 who had taken the cheapest quote reliable handguns on the 2:01:24.760 --> 2:01:27.240 face there if you had a guy with that that 2:01:27.400 --> 2:01:30.080 had had paid five hundred dollars for a training class 2:01:30.200 --> 2:01:33.160 over weekend and still went uh went to the shooting 2:01:33.240 --> 2:01:36.480 range every week and practiced, and um or not even 2:01:36.520 --> 2:01:38.600 every week, just every month, and then did dry fire 2:01:38.880 --> 2:01:42.040 drills once a month in his garage or whatever. Versus 2:01:42.120 --> 2:01:45.879 a guy who went out and bought a Wilson Combat 2:01:46.080 --> 2:01:49.720 three thousand dollar nineteen eleven but had only taken the 2:01:49.840 --> 2:01:51.880 n R A class. I will bet on the guy 2:01:51.960 --> 2:01:55.840 with the eight or the C nine all day long, um, 2:01:56.200 --> 2:01:59.280 even if he's only got one bullet, you know, yeah, 2:01:59.440 --> 2:02:02.880 don't don't care, He'll win. And often like for all 2:02:02.960 --> 2:02:04.720 of it, for all the guys you see, you know, 2:02:04.800 --> 2:02:06.960 with in all of their tactical gear and whatnot and 2:02:07.320 --> 2:02:10.800 their spare mag's taking a three hundred rounds out. If 2:02:10.840 --> 2:02:14.440 you actually look at most defensive shootings, um, it's very 2:02:14.600 --> 2:02:17.960 common and I think like like three to five rounds, 2:02:18.200 --> 2:02:21.160 three to five rounds generally closer than thirty feet, sometimes 2:02:21.200 --> 2:02:24.240 closer than like ten or fifteen that sits in my 2:02:24.400 --> 2:02:31.000 pocket most of the time. It's nineteen It's so tiny. Um. 2:02:31.640 --> 2:02:34.280 It has more bullets than I'll ever need to gunfight. Probably, 2:02:35.000 --> 2:02:37.320 I think I want to pivot from this point to um. 2:02:38.000 --> 2:02:41.360 We started this by it introducing that you you spent 2:02:41.520 --> 2:02:43.720 some time in the A t F, spent some time 2:02:43.760 --> 2:02:46.880 in the FPS. I haven't had any personal interactions with 2:02:46.920 --> 2:02:48.680 the A t F, but I have met some FPS 2:02:48.720 --> 2:02:53.760 guys support. You know, I'm kind of curious, especially as 2:02:53.800 --> 2:02:56.400 because I came in contact with you through your through 2:02:56.480 --> 2:03:01.200 your Twitter, where you're very my personal Twitter. Yeah, and 2:03:01.280 --> 2:03:04.080 you're you're quite politically active now, um in a way 2:03:04.120 --> 2:03:06.800 that I think is surprising people for someone with your background. 2:03:07.120 --> 2:03:09.560 Are you comfortable with kind of tracing sort of the 2:03:09.600 --> 2:03:11.680 broad strokes of your journey there, because I think that's 2:03:11.720 --> 2:03:17.040 instructive um for folks oh at FPS specifically, well, just 2:03:17.160 --> 2:03:20.640 kind of what brought you from there to hear? Oh um. 2:03:21.360 --> 2:03:26.040 So I got kind of uh, oh man, what What's 2:03:26.120 --> 2:03:29.040 what's the word for when you just get uh? I 2:03:29.080 --> 2:03:31.240 don't know. I just I got to a point. I 2:03:31.360 --> 2:03:35.080 showed up for for work at four thirty in the morning, 2:03:35.840 --> 2:03:41.400 and I was literally shuffling through some some paperwork and 2:03:41.720 --> 2:03:44.600 and was getting ready to file a warrant and just 2:03:44.720 --> 2:03:48.440 kind of realized I I didn't think that it needed 2:03:48.480 --> 2:03:52.880 to happen, And you know, I talked to my supervising 2:03:52.920 --> 2:03:57.000 agent about it, and UM, was kind of told too bad, 2:03:57.160 --> 2:04:00.200 and and I put in for some vacation time him 2:04:00.320 --> 2:04:03.200 and ended up putting him a resignation while I was 2:04:03.240 --> 2:04:05.880 on vacation. I mean that that's the gist of how 2:04:05.960 --> 2:04:11.520 I became not a cop. Yeah, And UM, I'm wondering, 2:04:11.640 --> 2:04:15.920 kind of what do you think? Is there anything that 2:04:16.080 --> 2:04:18.400 kind of I don't know what looks different to you 2:04:18.560 --> 2:04:20.840 now as you've kind of left that behind. Was it 2:04:20.960 --> 2:04:24.520 like sort of, Um, I'm guessing there's like a period 2:04:24.600 --> 2:04:26.760 like a goldfish, you know, in a new bowl of 2:04:26.960 --> 2:04:32.000 of acclamation to to life outside of being a cop? Um? Like, 2:04:32.200 --> 2:04:34.080 what what were the first kind of things that started 2:04:34.120 --> 2:04:36.440 to shift in your perspective when you left that that 2:04:36.600 --> 2:04:42.839 thought space. I'll tell you what, watching or reading whatever, 2:04:43.000 --> 2:04:45.680 an article or a YouTube video, especially now that body 2:04:45.760 --> 2:04:52.400 cams are more and more prevalent, is watching something, reading 2:04:52.760 --> 2:04:57.440 the the press release and going But that's that's not 2:04:57.560 --> 2:05:00.360 what happened like I just watched it, and and and 2:05:00.520 --> 2:05:03.320 going from being able to justify it in your own 2:05:03.360 --> 2:05:06.800 mind and literally argue with people and be a hundred 2:05:06.880 --> 2:05:11.880 percent convinced like that was a good shoot. Um Castillo, 2:05:12.080 --> 2:05:16.360 what it was? Philandro Castillo? Yeah, oh god? And he was, man, 2:05:16.440 --> 2:05:20.520 if you've if you've gotten lost track of this shooting 2:05:20.600 --> 2:05:23.880 in between all the others. Filando was a black man, 2:05:24.040 --> 2:05:26.680 a legal gun owner with a legal concealed carry permit, 2:05:26.720 --> 2:05:29.000 who was pulled over with his girlfriend and child in 2:05:29.080 --> 2:05:32.400 a car and hands on the wheel, told the officer 2:05:32.520 --> 2:05:36.480 he had a gun, uh, and got shot. Um, you know, 2:05:36.600 --> 2:05:38.560 and it did the thing you're supposed to do. Although 2:05:38.920 --> 2:05:41.600 now actually since then, you will get like some states 2:05:41.680 --> 2:05:44.160 will and some training classes will recommend if it's not 2:05:44.280 --> 2:05:46.960 legally required and you're carrying a gun, don't say anything 2:05:47.080 --> 2:05:51.920 for that reason. But I mean, yeah, the command to 2:05:52.120 --> 2:05:56.120 not reach for the gun to being shot multiple times 2:05:56.160 --> 2:06:00.120 in the chest was like under two seconds. Hum. So 2:06:00.200 --> 2:06:02.000 I mean, I mean the decision was already made as 2:06:02.040 --> 2:06:03.640 soon as as soon as he gave the command, the 2:06:03.680 --> 2:06:07.800 decision was made. And here's what that brings me to 2:06:08.040 --> 2:06:10.080 in terms of a question that's relevant to the topic 2:06:10.200 --> 2:06:14.480 of community self defensive potential community armed self defense, because 2:06:14.560 --> 2:06:16.800 that's not that is a that is a cop problem, 2:06:16.840 --> 2:06:18.760 but that's not just a cop problem. And what happened 2:06:18.880 --> 2:06:22.160 everybody problem in the chop and the chairs in Seattle, 2:06:22.320 --> 2:06:24.480 the the autonomous zone is evidence of that. You had 2:06:24.560 --> 2:06:28.680 this situation where people, after nights and nights of mostly 2:06:28.800 --> 2:06:32.240 inaccurate warnings about proud boys coming to attack, got amped up. 2:06:32.640 --> 2:06:35.480 They had guns, some kids drove by in a car 2:06:35.560 --> 2:06:37.440 and they fucking shot him to death. Um. And it 2:06:37.600 --> 2:06:40.560 is the same, it's the same mental thing happening. You 2:06:40.600 --> 2:06:43.280 don't have to have a badge for that, that mindset 2:06:43.520 --> 2:06:47.840 to infect, especially when you're carrying a gun. Um, how 2:06:47.880 --> 2:06:54.080 do you, in your opinion, fight back against that? Buck chill? Uh? 2:06:54.320 --> 2:07:03.000 You know, like like honestly, Um, if you were a teenager, 2:07:03.080 --> 2:07:05.400 which we grew up in almost the same place you're from, Plane, Oh, 2:07:05.560 --> 2:07:10.760 I'm from Capel, so I would have argued with you 2:07:10.840 --> 2:07:13.240 about them being the same place when the same but 2:07:13.440 --> 2:07:16.640 they're the same place. Yeah, they're absolutely the same place. 2:07:16.960 --> 2:07:21.520 Yeah one has uh one has uh woot dot com 2:07:21.720 --> 2:07:25.120 and the other one has raytheon so you know, and 2:07:25.160 --> 2:07:32.640 a bunch of hospitals. Um. But uh, you and I 2:07:32.760 --> 2:07:35.120 grew up in the same time, same place, same types 2:07:35.160 --> 2:07:38.880 of schools. How many times did you see in like 2:07:39.240 --> 2:07:43.480 high school or even middle school, just a guy hit 2:07:43.560 --> 2:07:46.400 on a girl and then the girl's boyfriend comes over 2:07:46.440 --> 2:07:49.360 and just starts fighting him, like like like the guy 2:07:49.480 --> 2:07:52.680 had no reason to know, he didn't know he was 2:07:52.800 --> 2:07:58.080 doing anything wrong. Um. And I'm not suggesting, I'm sorry. 2:07:58.160 --> 2:08:02.960 What I'm pointing out is that, Um, it's almost ingrained 2:08:03.360 --> 2:08:08.400 in us at a societal level to to react violently 2:08:09.040 --> 2:08:14.000 to maintain like our personal position. And if that means 2:08:14.040 --> 2:08:19.080 that I'm in my neighborhood and I don't recognize someone, 2:08:19.960 --> 2:08:22.360 it may seem like violence is the right way to go. 2:08:22.640 --> 2:08:25.360 That's actually what what you're doing. When like what's it called, 2:08:25.480 --> 2:08:28.200 Karen ng You know where you call somebody the black 2:08:28.360 --> 2:08:32.880 kid yell uh selling water bottles or whatever. Um, I 2:08:32.960 --> 2:08:35.120 know that was one in New York where the police 2:08:35.200 --> 2:08:38.000 came and harassed you know, some like twelve year old 2:08:38.040 --> 2:08:42.600 black kids because they were selling water bottles. Um, it's 2:08:42.640 --> 2:08:44.200 the same thing. I mean, you know in that case, 2:08:44.280 --> 2:08:46.720 you're not personally doing the violence, You're just calling somebody 2:08:46.760 --> 2:08:49.680 else to do it for you, um, because you know 2:08:49.800 --> 2:08:52.560 the police are kind of violence, violence of monopoly and 2:08:52.600 --> 2:08:58.360 all that. Yeah. Yeah, and that's some one of the 2:08:58.440 --> 2:09:01.440 most I think important things about that is the idea 2:09:01.640 --> 2:09:05.960 of UM violence is like like when you when you're 2:09:06.000 --> 2:09:08.320 willing to accept violence to kind of maintain your your 2:09:08.480 --> 2:09:11.400 your social position or something. UM. And I think that 2:09:11.520 --> 2:09:13.680 has a huge amount to do with with the kind 2:09:13.760 --> 2:09:17.480 of violence you see UM at protests with like we've had, 2:09:17.760 --> 2:09:20.520 you know, protests quote unquote security here in Portland, people 2:09:20.720 --> 2:09:24.200 of declaring themselves security and what does that mean shooting 2:09:24.280 --> 2:09:27.360 other kids within guns for graffiti? Like, but it is 2:09:27.440 --> 2:09:29.400 it is a matter for it's they're not doing it 2:09:29.920 --> 2:09:33.240 to protect anybody. They're doing it because they've declared themselves security. 2:09:33.320 --> 2:09:35.560 Somebody doesn't listen to what they say and their ego 2:09:35.760 --> 2:09:37.640 is hurt. It's the same thing that again cops do. 2:09:37.760 --> 2:09:39.920 It's this it's a human mindset. It's not just a 2:09:40.640 --> 2:09:45.000 a cop mindset. And UM, I think you when you're 2:09:45.000 --> 2:09:47.200 talking about like, I think there's a couple of things. 2:09:47.440 --> 2:09:49.040 Number One, if you're going to be armed and if 2:09:49.040 --> 2:09:51.280 you're going to be armed in a community self defense role, 2:09:51.360 --> 2:09:52.880 one of the things you have to accept, is that, 2:09:53.000 --> 2:09:56.760 like you're not, as a person who is armed and 2:09:56.840 --> 2:09:58.800 cares about the defense of your community, you're not a 2:09:58.880 --> 2:10:00.960 separate thing from them. I think that's one of the 2:10:01.000 --> 2:10:05.160 areas where which policing goes wrong. May view yourselves as separate. Yeah, 2:10:05.440 --> 2:10:09.960 and I know you guys have a big problem with that. Um, 2:10:10.600 --> 2:10:13.160 we do here too. I live in a metro and 2:10:14.280 --> 2:10:18.360 our metro police, like them, don't even live in the county. 2:10:19.320 --> 2:10:21.920 They all go the same here. Yeah. Yeah, they don't 2:10:21.960 --> 2:10:24.320 even not just the city, they don't live in the 2:10:24.360 --> 2:10:28.600 whole county. Um. And that's despite they get a living 2:10:28.640 --> 2:10:30.880 allowance if they'll live in the city, and there's a 2:10:30.920 --> 2:10:33.600 bunch of if they live in the city, they get 2:10:33.640 --> 2:10:36.680 a take home car. There's a bunch of incentives to 2:10:36.800 --> 2:10:40.440 try and get people to live here, and they still 2:10:40.480 --> 2:10:43.440 won't do it. They want to go live in the 2:10:43.560 --> 2:10:47.600 next sheriff over, the next county where yeah, we have 2:10:47.680 --> 2:10:50.200 a very vocal sheriff the next county over. Who's who's 2:10:50.240 --> 2:10:54.720 really racist and all that ship? Um? And I yeah, 2:10:54.800 --> 2:10:58.360 I think if you're if you're talking about like the 2:10:58.480 --> 2:11:02.800 potential of again of like armed community self defense, Um, 2:11:03.440 --> 2:11:08.560 you almost I almost would prefer phrasing it differently community 2:11:08.600 --> 2:11:14.200 self defense, you know, UM, which should community? Yeah, yeah, community, 2:11:15.080 --> 2:11:19.920 And you're not the gun isn't what you are. You're 2:11:19.960 --> 2:11:23.760 not you're not security, you're not self defense because you're armed. 2:11:24.160 --> 2:11:26.440 Your self defense because you're a member of the community. 2:11:26.480 --> 2:11:29.160 And if you personally choose to be armed, that is 2:11:29.240 --> 2:11:33.080 an option that is expanded to you specifically because you're armed. 2:11:33.160 --> 2:11:35.800 But it doesn't change fun. It shouldn't change what you are. 2:11:35.920 --> 2:11:39.000 And if it does, there's a phrase that I think 2:11:39.080 --> 2:11:42.440 is really useful, um, the finger pulls the trigger and 2:11:42.520 --> 2:11:45.120 if you want to avoid or the trigger pulls the finger. Sorry. 2:11:45.200 --> 2:11:48.040 And it's this idea that when you show up armed, 2:11:48.640 --> 2:11:51.720 and you're showing up armed as someone like your purpose 2:11:51.800 --> 2:11:54.440 there is to be armed, you're at at heavy risk 2:11:54.600 --> 2:11:59.040 of the weapon guiding your responses. Um. And that's the 2:11:59.120 --> 2:12:02.480 most important thing in any circumstance to avoid if you're 2:12:02.480 --> 2:12:04.920 carrying a weapon. If um, if you've got a hammer, 2:12:05.000 --> 2:12:10.400 everything's a nail is yeah. Well and and uh, the 2:12:10.520 --> 2:12:13.480 last twenty years we've had kind of a with the 2:12:13.560 --> 2:12:17.160 War on Terror. You've seen a proliferation in media around 2:12:17.480 --> 2:12:23.120 UM making Navy Seals and all that ship look really 2:12:23.280 --> 2:12:27.040 really really cool. Uh, every other movie is about that, 2:12:27.280 --> 2:12:31.520 even though like really they're just drunk guys who yell 2:12:31.560 --> 2:12:34.600 at people a lot and who occasionally commit murder to 2:12:34.720 --> 2:12:36.800 protect Or Was that was that the Seals? Was that 2:12:36.880 --> 2:12:38.840 the Green Berets who killed that guy to protect a 2:12:38.920 --> 2:12:42.000 drug trafficking Greg? I mean probably both. Oh you know 2:12:42.200 --> 2:12:46.160 that that was the Green Berets in North Carolina? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 2:12:46.560 --> 2:12:50.320 I mean it crosses all all borders. Um. But one 2:12:50.360 --> 2:12:53.720 thing that's come out of that is we we've started 2:12:53.760 --> 2:12:58.560 to call those guys operators. Right, So you've gone from 2:12:58.600 --> 2:13:02.160 a gun being a tool that someone trains there to 2:13:02.480 --> 2:13:07.360 use too, they are merely an operator of a weapons system. Um. 2:13:08.320 --> 2:13:12.200 And it it's kind of dehumanizing, like it it allows 2:13:12.240 --> 2:13:14.680 you to get out of the thought on that. Um, 2:13:15.080 --> 2:13:16.960 it's exactly what you were talking about. Where where the 2:13:17.120 --> 2:13:22.120 triggers really pulling the finger at that point? Um? Yeah, 2:13:22.240 --> 2:13:24.840 And it's it's I think there's a number of I 2:13:24.920 --> 2:13:28.840 don't know, there's a number of tactics and more than 2:13:28.920 --> 2:13:30.600 we can get through, and that we'll be talking with 2:13:30.720 --> 2:13:33.160 some other community to self defense people at some point 2:13:33.200 --> 2:13:35.040 in the near future about this, because this is a 2:13:35.080 --> 2:13:37.800 big topic, right, and it's not one I haven't seen 2:13:37.800 --> 2:13:40.640 anyone do it super well yet in the United States, 2:13:40.760 --> 2:13:44.840 like we anytime you have kind of persistent right wingers 2:13:44.920 --> 2:13:48.760 do every once in a while. Yeah, yeah, they take 2:13:48.800 --> 2:13:53.040 over blm Land. Yeah, but then they die. I forgot 2:13:53.040 --> 2:13:57.320 about that. Yeah they did die, get killed. Um. And 2:13:57.520 --> 2:14:03.080 I think that it's it's a it's a really messy 2:14:03.200 --> 2:14:05.200 topic because of you know, what you brought up is 2:14:05.400 --> 2:14:08.600 a valid point, all the everything that all the kind 2:14:08.640 --> 2:14:11.600 of social baggage there is around weaponry in this in 2:14:11.720 --> 2:14:14.080 this country and in our in our culture, this kind 2:14:14.120 --> 2:14:16.800 of like worship of the gun. And if you think 2:14:16.960 --> 2:14:19.960 like the left is any more immune to that than 2:14:20.000 --> 2:14:22.160 the right, you're wrong. You see the same you know, 2:14:22.360 --> 2:14:26.360 toxic behavior all around. You have to be extremely cognizant 2:14:26.400 --> 2:14:27.680 of it, even if you know it's something at the 2:14:27.760 --> 2:14:30.960 risk for there is um weapons in general have a 2:14:31.280 --> 2:14:34.200 mental impact on us carrying them. Um. And there is 2:14:34.360 --> 2:14:36.800 there is a level of just like being around weaponry 2:14:36.880 --> 2:14:39.960 that is entrancing. It's it's a human thing. You know, 2:14:40.080 --> 2:14:43.760 we make weapons, it's we're tool using apes and weapons 2:14:43.800 --> 2:14:45.560 are some of the first tools that we made that 2:14:45.720 --> 2:14:48.960 that are responsible for why you know, we get to 2:14:49.000 --> 2:14:51.360 tell the dogs and the cats what to do. UM. 2:14:52.600 --> 2:14:56.160 And you have to you have to really approach being 2:14:56.440 --> 2:15:00.360 armed from a standpoint of rejecting a lot of that 2:15:00.520 --> 2:15:02.720 if you're going to do it responsibly. I mean, among 2:15:02.800 --> 2:15:05.000 other things, the idea that you might have to use 2:15:05.080 --> 2:15:09.320 a gun UM has to be you're you're very close 2:15:09.360 --> 2:15:13.440 to your worst nightmare, UM, because it would be it 2:15:13.520 --> 2:15:15.800 would be if you ever actually had to use one. 2:15:16.360 --> 2:15:18.560 UM at minimum, you're talking like when you actually look 2:15:18.560 --> 2:15:21.840 at like legal self defense shoots, you're talking minimum. The 2:15:21.920 --> 2:15:24.600 next if you kill somebody, at least minimum, the next 2:15:24.680 --> 2:15:28.320 year of your life is dealing with the legal consequences 2:15:28.360 --> 2:15:31.440 of that. Sure, and probably hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yeah, 2:15:31.920 --> 2:15:35.640 I mean, if you're having if if if IF file, 2:15:36.000 --> 2:15:39.560 if charges get filed, you're talking hundreds of thousands of 2:15:39.640 --> 2:15:44.920 dollars for like a capital defense case, if not millions. Yeah, 2:15:45.440 --> 2:15:47.680 And and that's in you know, there's one of the 2:15:47.720 --> 2:15:51.240 gun YouTubers that I like to push people towards it 2:15:51.840 --> 2:15:53.760 for this kind of stuff is a guy named Paul Harold, 2:15:53.800 --> 2:15:56.600 who is certainly more on the conservative side, but who 2:15:56.640 --> 2:15:59.200 actually killed somebody in a self defense and went through 2:15:59.200 --> 2:16:01.360 the whole legal s f afterwards. And he has a 2:16:01.400 --> 2:16:03.000 couple of videos where he talks about it and he 2:16:03.120 --> 2:16:07.120 gives I think, pretty good advice on that that is 2:16:07.240 --> 2:16:09.800 that is completely without ego, because it's it was a 2:16:09.920 --> 2:16:12.160 nightmare for him. It was the worst experience of his life, 2:16:12.200 --> 2:16:13.800 which is what it's going to be if you ever 2:16:13.880 --> 2:16:16.480 have to use a gun, and that should be like, 2:16:17.080 --> 2:16:19.280 that should be the top of your that should be 2:16:19.320 --> 2:16:20.720 the top of your mindset. You know, I've been in 2:16:20.800 --> 2:16:22.920 this situation a couple of times at protests where like 2:16:23.000 --> 2:16:26.000 someone pulls a knife and starts lunging at people and 2:16:26.120 --> 2:16:28.800 I have a gun and I'm fifteen feet away, and 2:16:28.880 --> 2:16:33.640 I never drew in part because it never quite crossed 2:16:33.720 --> 2:16:37.640 that line for me, and I knew that giving people 2:16:37.680 --> 2:16:41.520 the chance to deescalate was vastly more important than um 2:16:41.959 --> 2:16:45.880 introducing a second weapon to the situation immediately. And if 2:16:45.920 --> 2:16:48.440 things had gone differently, perhaps I would feel differently about 2:16:48.480 --> 2:16:51.360 my choices in that moment, But um, they didn't and 2:16:51.440 --> 2:16:53.600 nobody got hurt. And that's always the best case scenario, 2:16:53.640 --> 2:16:58.320 even if it's somebody you really dislike who is who 2:16:58.440 --> 2:17:01.800 is threatening people with a weapon. I swear that happened 2:17:01.879 --> 2:17:05.200 up in Olympia like two weeks ago. Yeah, well the 2:17:05.240 --> 2:17:07.840 shooting in Olympia, which was a guy named Tiny who 2:17:07.879 --> 2:17:10.640 got shot. Um, and there's video of it. It's absolutely 2:17:10.720 --> 2:17:16.240 not a legally justified shoot for sure. Like, yeah he 2:17:16.440 --> 2:17:19.400 was he was like forty feet away, you know. Um, yeah, 2:17:19.480 --> 2:17:22.200 but he's really tall. He is big, he is I 2:17:22.320 --> 2:17:25.880 think that counts for something. He was tall, he was tall, 2:17:25.959 --> 2:17:29.400 he was chasing them, he was armed. Um. Not making 2:17:29.440 --> 2:17:32.400 a moral case here. I think legally they would have 2:17:32.440 --> 2:17:35.039 had a trouble had they stayed around. Now, of course 2:17:35.080 --> 2:17:37.720 they've got I believe they've been arrested at this point. 2:17:38.200 --> 2:17:44.240 Oh have they? I just heard visits think so so sorry. 2:17:44.240 --> 2:17:45.960 I don't mean to crash it for a second. I 2:17:46.640 --> 2:17:50.480 think I saw our best friend Andy post something about 2:17:54.280 --> 2:17:57.440 three days ago. Three Yeah, okay, so they did. They 2:17:57.480 --> 2:18:00.800 did arrest the guy. Yeah, And it's you know, it's 2:18:00.840 --> 2:18:04.520 another thing if you, um, if you feel if if 2:18:04.560 --> 2:18:07.160 you're involved in like a shooting that you feel is 2:18:07.200 --> 2:18:11.320 a justified legal shooting, Um, you don't. You don't leave 2:18:11.360 --> 2:18:13.400 the scene. Uh. And in fact, one of the better 2:18:13.520 --> 2:18:16.640 videos you'll get on like what to Do and uh, 2:18:16.840 --> 2:18:18.560 this guy's life has gone to ship because of the 2:18:18.560 --> 2:18:20.840 political nature of your shooting. But the guy in um 2:18:21.120 --> 2:18:24.400 in Denver who shot that dude at a protest, the pinker, 2:18:25.720 --> 2:18:28.400 I'll tell you, you know, no, no matter what you 2:18:28.440 --> 2:18:29.920 want to say about whether or not it was a 2:18:29.959 --> 2:18:32.800 good shoot, yeah that that he dropped that fucking guy, 2:18:33.080 --> 2:18:40.000 he dropped head down on his knees. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 2:18:40.840 --> 2:18:43.240 it was. You know, again, the court case is not 2:18:43.400 --> 2:18:45.160 settled out, so I don't know if that guy's story 2:18:45.280 --> 2:18:47.080 is going to end happily. But in terms of if 2:18:47.120 --> 2:18:49.720 you want to not get shot yourself and you want 2:18:49.760 --> 2:18:52.040 to have the maximum chance of defending yourself if you 2:18:52.120 --> 2:18:55.439 have to shoot somebody in a situation that's legally justified, 2:18:55.840 --> 2:18:58.040 what that guy did after the shoot is how to 2:18:58.160 --> 2:19:01.320 handle it, um, And I mean the evidence for that 2:19:01.440 --> 2:19:04.039 is he did not get shot. And obviously your mileage 2:19:04.080 --> 2:19:05.920 with that's going to vary depending on your skin color. 2:19:06.440 --> 2:19:10.640 Uh yeah, that's a big factor. Yeah. In terms of 2:19:11.480 --> 2:19:14.840 actual training, people can like pay for if they if 2:19:14.879 --> 2:19:16.680 they want to take that step, which I think is 2:19:16.879 --> 2:19:19.720 a good idea. UM who do you do. Do you 2:19:19.800 --> 2:19:22.320 have kind of like broad recommendations for how people can 2:19:22.600 --> 2:19:24.400 know if some things you know, because there's this is 2:19:24.480 --> 2:19:29.320 certainly a space where there's a lot of grifters and whatnot. Um, yeah, 2:19:29.360 --> 2:19:36.000 I mean most of the beginner level uh, how to 2:19:36.080 --> 2:19:40.080 fight with a gun classes are two to three days 2:19:40.160 --> 2:19:42.880 long like that. That's a good starting point is the 2:19:42.959 --> 2:19:46.039 fact that you're going to pay probably three to five 2:19:46.120 --> 2:19:50.480 hundred dollars per day, um, and it's going to be 2:19:50.680 --> 2:19:56.480 multiple days long. You can't because you're going from a baseline. 2:19:57.280 --> 2:19:58.880 You know, they know you already know how to a 2:19:59.000 --> 2:20:01.680 point and shoot a gun, but they're going to go 2:20:01.840 --> 2:20:04.880 up from everything on how to draw, how to move, 2:20:05.040 --> 2:20:08.320 how to reload. Um, you're gonna have some classroom time 2:20:08.400 --> 2:20:13.000 going over their specific safety instructions and stuff like that. Um. 2:20:14.080 --> 2:20:16.120 But anything you can do in one day or four 2:20:16.200 --> 2:20:19.920 hours or forty rounds or whatever, it isn't going to 2:20:20.040 --> 2:20:25.240 cut it. Um. You need to go get something, and 2:20:25.360 --> 2:20:27.160 you need to listen because they're going to ask you 2:20:27.240 --> 2:20:29.800 to do things that might not be the way you 2:20:30.000 --> 2:20:32.640 want to do it. You might say, yeah, that's not 2:20:32.760 --> 2:20:36.200 the way my dad taught me how to reload a handgun. Um. 2:20:38.560 --> 2:20:43.320 A good example is actually um Tactical Response in Tennessee. 2:20:43.840 --> 2:20:46.120 They a lot of people hate them, but they have 2:20:46.200 --> 2:20:49.560 a very specific way that they say, everyone reloads this 2:20:49.640 --> 2:20:51.360 way in our class. You know, you put it in 2:20:51.440 --> 2:20:55.039 and you sling shot the slide. Um. And and people 2:20:55.040 --> 2:20:56.880 will argue and go, well, I want to just press 2:20:56.920 --> 2:20:58.680 the button. Well the button is cool and all, but 2:20:58.800 --> 2:21:00.320 we want you to sling shot the slide. Just do 2:21:00.440 --> 2:21:04.879 it for this class. Um. Sorry, I got a little 2:21:04.920 --> 2:21:07.560 off topic there. No, no, no, that that's a good 2:21:07.600 --> 2:21:11.640 point too, because I mean, just go and listen, um. 2:21:12.879 --> 2:21:16.160 And you don't have to take everything away. You take 2:21:16.280 --> 2:21:19.920 what you saw as good usable information and merge that 2:21:20.120 --> 2:21:23.040 with what you already know, maybe throw away some of 2:21:23.120 --> 2:21:24.760 what you already know. When you've got this ball a 2:21:24.840 --> 2:21:30.680 goo that you can work with for practice. Um. Yeah, yeah, 2:21:31.280 --> 2:21:34.280 and yeah it is. And to that point when you're 2:21:34.320 --> 2:21:38.040 talking about like training, one of the differences between handguns 2:21:38.080 --> 2:21:40.560 and rifles, Like all all shooting, as always, there's a 2:21:40.600 --> 2:21:42.880 degree of perishable nous to it, but shooting a handgun 2:21:43.000 --> 2:21:46.160 is a much more perishable skill than shooting a rifle. Um. 2:21:46.800 --> 2:21:49.240 And it's it's so if you're going to be armed 2:21:49.280 --> 2:21:52.600 with a handgun. Um, it really behooves you to take 2:21:53.040 --> 2:21:56.960 to train, you know, because you're only as good as 2:21:57.000 --> 2:22:00.360 how often you've been out there, really uh um, and 2:22:00.440 --> 2:22:02.920 having a state a good foundation like taking some real 2:22:03.040 --> 2:22:05.720 professional classes will help a lot in that as opposed 2:22:05.720 --> 2:22:07.360 to just kind of going out to the range every 2:22:07.400 --> 2:22:11.520 now and again. But yeah, um, let's talk at the s. 2:22:11.760 --> 2:22:14.400 The last little bit of this here about kind of 2:22:14.480 --> 2:22:17.160 the gun that's always on the tip of everybody's tongue 2:22:17.200 --> 2:22:21.000 when you start talking about being armed and armed self defenses. 2:22:21.160 --> 2:22:24.320 You know, the A R platform. Um, it's a gun 2:22:24.400 --> 2:22:27.600 with a lot of baggage, a tremendous amount of cultural baggage, 2:22:27.640 --> 2:22:30.120 and it's it has become vastly more than just a 2:22:30.200 --> 2:22:34.560 firearm in our culture. Um what a what? What do 2:22:34.600 --> 2:22:37.080 you what? Are kind of? Because I am a big 2:22:37.120 --> 2:22:40.560 advocate of people who who are open to being armed 2:22:40.959 --> 2:22:43.600 getting an A R platform. I think it's a great 2:22:43.640 --> 2:22:46.360 gun to learn. I mean it goes yeah, it goes 2:22:46.480 --> 2:22:49.920 bang really well almost every time, as long as it's 2:22:49.959 --> 2:22:55.440 from a reputable manufacturer. Um, despite what some people say, 2:22:55.840 --> 2:23:01.000 they're very reliable. Um, they're easy to clean, literally as 2:23:01.080 --> 2:23:03.480 long as you keep them lubricated, even in the field, 2:23:03.520 --> 2:23:05.920 you keep it lubricated, it will just just keep banging 2:23:05.959 --> 2:23:10.200 out rounds um it functions. And you know, we talked 2:23:10.240 --> 2:23:12.560 about this during the episodes on like you know, food 2:23:12.680 --> 2:23:16.160 storage and in and whatnot. Like where there's a there's 2:23:16.200 --> 2:23:19.680 the there's the cheap version. I like stuff where there's 2:23:19.800 --> 2:23:22.680 there's the cheap version that works, and there's the expensive 2:23:22.800 --> 2:23:25.200 version that works. And you you have that with an 2:23:25.240 --> 2:23:27.560 A R. You can get a very inexpensive A R, 2:23:27.760 --> 2:23:29.920 and you can you can replace every part of that 2:23:30.040 --> 2:23:32.200 are over the next five years and have a six 2:23:32.240 --> 2:23:36.360 thousand dollar gun. I I did um minor price checking 2:23:36.560 --> 2:23:38.160 last night because I was like, you know, I haven't 2:23:38.240 --> 2:23:41.360 checked the price the retail prices on stuff right. So 2:23:41.760 --> 2:23:45.160 in like your your budget tier normal price that that's 2:23:45.160 --> 2:23:48.080 out right now, you've got like a Ruber a R 2:23:48.160 --> 2:23:51.680 five five six. There's seven hundred bucks. That's that's dirt cheap, 2:23:51.760 --> 2:23:54.720 and it's gonna go bang just the same read gun. Yeah. 2:23:54.720 --> 2:23:56.920 I have a friend who who's who's a R is 2:23:56.959 --> 2:23:59.640 A five five six and they're very solid. Yeah, they 2:23:59.760 --> 2:24:02.240 just they go bang every time. You're not going to 2:24:02.320 --> 2:24:04.600 break up. Um. I mean, as long as you don't 2:24:04.640 --> 2:24:06.000 use it like a baseball bat, you're not going to 2:24:06.080 --> 2:24:09.400 break up, especially now that the Russian steelcase damo has 2:24:09.480 --> 2:24:14.680 been banned. But then, like the the other end of 2:24:14.720 --> 2:24:18.400 the spectrum is you got a sick right, Yeah, I've 2:24:18.400 --> 2:24:21.440 got a couple. Okay, So you know what the rattler is? 2:24:22.160 --> 2:24:24.920 Oh yeah, that's a fun one. I do not own 2:24:24.959 --> 2:24:27.520 a rattler, but they are They are cute. Do you 2:24:27.600 --> 2:24:33.160 know how much? Well, first off, the rattler it's a short, 2:24:33.240 --> 2:24:36.480 bare old five five six. It's not really an air 2:24:36.520 --> 2:24:40.400 of fifteen, but like technically it kind of is. Yeah, um, 2:24:41.720 --> 2:24:45.520 and it's well, how about this, how much do you 2:24:45.680 --> 2:24:47.720 think that the rattler costs? Right now, don't don't go 2:24:47.879 --> 2:24:51.640 look it, just just ta probably bucks would be my guests. 2:24:56.040 --> 2:24:58.680 Now it's uh now, I actually put it in my 2:24:58.800 --> 2:25:03.160 category of honorable mentioned slash meme because it's kind of 2:25:03.200 --> 2:25:06.840 a meme gun. Uh it's so tiny, um, but I 2:25:06.920 --> 2:25:09.039 don't want to get shot with it. But that's kind 2:25:09.080 --> 2:25:12.000 of the spread we were talking about, which is, you know, 2:25:12.520 --> 2:25:15.360 you can get a seven dollar gun and it'll go 2:25:15.520 --> 2:25:19.080 bang the exact same way as the rattler. UM. It 2:25:19.200 --> 2:25:23.560 fires the same bullet um, and you can build up 2:25:23.600 --> 2:25:25.959 to something not like a rattler, but you can build 2:25:26.000 --> 2:25:29.920 up to um a bunch of Novesky parts. You can 2:25:29.959 --> 2:25:33.440 throw a bunch of Novesky parts into that ruger lower 2:25:33.520 --> 2:25:37.039 and upper that you bought and build a really awesome 2:25:37.120 --> 2:25:43.200 gun that will be you know, reliable. Yeah, yeah, and 2:25:43.360 --> 2:25:46.240 you can you know, I think generally if you're buying 2:25:46.360 --> 2:25:50.160 like a again, you're you're getting kind of a bargain basement. 2:25:50.280 --> 2:25:53.120 Are one of the first things that that it's going 2:25:53.160 --> 2:25:55.280 to behoove you to replaces the optics. You know, it'll 2:25:55.320 --> 2:25:58.400 probably start with ion sights. But these don't even come 2:25:58.480 --> 2:26:01.800 with anything. Yeah, usually they come with nothing on them 2:26:01.840 --> 2:26:03.560 and you have to stick the irons or you stick 2:26:03.600 --> 2:26:07.240 a reflex site. There's a whole world of um of optics, 2:26:07.280 --> 2:26:08.480 and I think one of the actually one of the 2:26:08.520 --> 2:26:11.880 websites I recommend people check into if you're looking and 2:26:12.000 --> 2:26:14.120 kind of reading up on this and and doing your 2:26:14.200 --> 2:26:18.640 due diligence is Pew Pew tactical Um. They do not 2:26:18.840 --> 2:26:21.920 written from like a super you know, chutty or whatever. Like. 2:26:22.000 --> 2:26:24.760 You get a lot of very political gun websites that 2:26:24.800 --> 2:26:27.360 may have some good information but are frustrating to read. 2:26:27.400 --> 2:26:29.800 They're not that way. They're written. You know, four people 2:26:29.840 --> 2:26:33.000 who are not super aggro about guns, but who are 2:26:33.120 --> 2:26:35.240 are are interested in guns, and you can find really 2:26:35.280 --> 2:26:38.119 good reviews on stuff. But as a general rule, modern 2:26:38.160 --> 2:26:40.400 optics beat iron sights every day of the way, like 2:26:40.920 --> 2:26:42.840 they prefer I I and I do in some case 2:26:43.320 --> 2:26:46.040 on my a case, I vastly prefer using irons, But 2:26:46.080 --> 2:26:47.920 that would never be the weapon I would pick if 2:26:48.320 --> 2:26:50.800 I was in a situation where I needed a weapon, 2:26:50.879 --> 2:26:55.240 you know. Yeah, I mean I think everyone should learn 2:26:55.520 --> 2:27:00.760 how to use iron sights, absolutely. But if I can 2:27:00.920 --> 2:27:04.119 hand someone a four and fifty dollar a point pro 2:27:05.120 --> 2:27:08.959 which which is uh the budget version of a high 2:27:09.120 --> 2:27:12.280 end optic, if I can put a four D and 2:27:12.320 --> 2:27:15.760 fifty optic with the mountain everything onto a rifle and 2:27:15.920 --> 2:27:18.960 just go, hey, just just put the dot on what 2:27:19.080 --> 2:27:23.040 you want to shoot, You're done. Um. Now, there's a 2:27:23.120 --> 2:27:25.440 lot that goes past that, but we got rid of 2:27:25.520 --> 2:27:29.240 the entire proper site alignment and all that. They just 2:27:29.320 --> 2:27:33.640 got to put the dot on the box and squeeze. Yeah. Yeah, 2:27:33.680 --> 2:27:36.520 I mean even even the Marine Corps famous for for 2:27:36.680 --> 2:27:40.440 fielding marksman has gone we're going to switch over to 2:27:40.680 --> 2:27:44.440 optic based training. Yeah, they're just I mean you look 2:27:44.480 --> 2:27:46.640 at even guys in like id Lib Province, which is 2:27:46.720 --> 2:27:49.240 like one of the rebel provinces in Syria that's been 2:27:49.480 --> 2:27:52.800 persistently under siege for most of the last decade. Um, 2:27:53.560 --> 2:27:56.879 they're all using fancy optics now like that generally alfin 2:27:56.920 --> 2:28:00.320 Ali Baba versions of like brand optics. But does the 2:28:00.360 --> 2:28:02.480 trick you know, I mean it's a it's a sig 2:28:02.600 --> 2:28:06.760 Romeo that never got the role market for cig on, Yeah, exactly, 2:28:06.879 --> 2:28:12.040 and they paid a hundred bucks instead of Yeah. Um, alright, Well, 2:28:12.080 --> 2:28:15.320 I think that's most of what we can responsibly get through. 2:28:15.360 --> 2:28:17.320 I do want to end on the caveat we started 2:28:17.400 --> 2:28:21.520 with this with, which is that um deciding whether or not. 2:28:21.879 --> 2:28:27.160 And I we advocate, uh, firearms is an option both 2:28:27.200 --> 2:28:29.800 as a legal option and something that can be for 2:28:29.920 --> 2:28:32.960 your community and for you as an individual potentially practical. 2:28:33.760 --> 2:28:36.800 I don't blanket advise people to buy guns. I think 2:28:36.879 --> 2:28:39.840 in many cases it's going to be counterproductive. I think 2:28:39.959 --> 2:28:42.280 you should not own a firearm. Again, if you're someone 2:28:42.320 --> 2:28:46.440 who struggles with suicidal ideation, they they can be a 2:28:46.560 --> 2:28:48.480 very dangerous thing to have in your home if that's 2:28:48.520 --> 2:28:51.480 something that that you battle with. I do think that 2:28:51.600 --> 2:28:54.840 they can be owned and used very responsibly. In addition 2:28:54.920 --> 2:28:58.480 to I think shooting can be a really enjoyable pastime. Um, 2:28:58.600 --> 2:29:00.680 and I think more than anything in a whole bunch 2:29:00.720 --> 2:29:03.720 of people who are talking about killing you all have guns. 2:29:04.080 --> 2:29:06.039 It can behoove you to own a firearm as well 2:29:06.520 --> 2:29:09.320 if you're a member of one of those communities. So 2:29:09.840 --> 2:29:12.760 please don't take any of this. As Robert Evans says, 2:29:12.840 --> 2:29:15.040 everyone go buy a gun. But if you're going to 2:29:15.120 --> 2:29:18.120 buy a gun, there's there's a right way and a 2:29:18.200 --> 2:29:21.080 responsible way to go about it, and there's you know, 2:29:21.480 --> 2:29:23.800 picking up a random twelve gauge and shoving it under 2:29:23.840 --> 2:29:28.359 your bed, which is no more shotguns for home defense. 2:29:28.720 --> 2:29:33.440 Yeah they're not. They're not ideal. Um. Yeah, I mean 2:29:33.480 --> 2:29:35.760 we can, we can talk about over penetration and stuff, 2:29:35.760 --> 2:29:41.879 but yeah, I mean just being able to move lead 2:29:41.920 --> 2:29:47.000 in a direction. They're very bad at it. Yeah, um yeah, yeah, 2:29:47.120 --> 2:29:49.600 they're they're they're not. They're not. I mean again, something 2:29:49.680 --> 2:29:53.440 like uh an a R or a pistol caliber carbine 2:29:53.600 --> 2:29:56.080 is in a lot of situations going to be a 2:29:56.160 --> 2:29:59.280 much more practical and and have less risk of hitting 2:29:59.280 --> 2:30:01.760 stuff you don't want to hit necessarily get get the 2:30:02.160 --> 2:30:08.160 high point? Um, yeat the yeah they eat cannon. Well 2:30:08.200 --> 2:30:11.160 we'll discuss that on our whole episode of about high Points. 2:30:11.640 --> 2:30:15.440 So you've shot yourself in the dick the high points story. 2:30:18.560 --> 2:30:21.720 All right, Well, um, do you wanna Paul, you've got 2:30:21.760 --> 2:30:25.000 any got anything to plug before we roll out here? Uh? 2:30:25.840 --> 2:30:30.480 Give food to homeless people? Well houseless, houseless I think 2:30:30.640 --> 2:30:33.800 is yeah. Um, and if you're in an area with 2:30:33.920 --> 2:30:36.760 a based d S A joined the d S I 2:30:37.000 --> 2:30:40.720 and then vote out the ship libs. That's what's happening 2:30:40.800 --> 2:30:49.600 here in Orlando. Um, but yeah, embrace anarchy. Well, I'm 2:30:50.240 --> 2:30:52.960 Robert Evans. This has been a podcast and uh and 2:30:53.080 --> 2:30:55.800 remember as we sail out, there's a reason the episode 2:30:55.840 --> 2:30:59.720 talking about guns came after the episodes talking about storing 2:31:00.000 --> 2:31:18.920 and growing food. Welcome back to the it could happen here. Yeah, 2:31:19.120 --> 2:31:21.880 that's the podcast we're doing right now. It's a podcast 2:31:21.920 --> 2:31:24.560 about how things are kind of falling apart, but maybe 2:31:24.600 --> 2:31:26.680 they don't need to, or at least not as much 2:31:26.840 --> 2:31:29.880 as they have been. I'm Robert Evans with me, as 2:31:30.160 --> 2:31:35.520 often is my co host Garrison. Davis Garrison, UM say 2:31:35.600 --> 2:31:38.560 something inciting to the audience. I'm on my second cup 2:31:38.600 --> 2:31:41.280 of coffee. Yeah, because it is. It is the early 2:31:41.400 --> 2:31:43.560 morning for you, by which I mean to eleven in 2:31:43.600 --> 2:31:47.560 the afternoon. UM, also with us today. Our guest for 2:31:47.600 --> 2:31:52.400 this episode is David van Douson. Uh. David, you are 2:31:52.480 --> 2:31:55.640 the president of the State Labor Council for the Vermont 2:31:55.720 --> 2:31:58.720 a f l c I O and there's a bunch 2:31:58.760 --> 2:32:01.200 of stuff that's interesting about your organization. Will dig into 2:32:01.280 --> 2:32:02.960 it in more detail in a second, but first I 2:32:03.040 --> 2:32:04.600 just want to say hello and thank you for being 2:32:04.640 --> 2:32:09.040 on the show. Now, David, the big thing, I mean, 2:32:09.080 --> 2:32:11.080 the Vermont a f l c I has been in 2:32:11.120 --> 2:32:13.680 the news a couple of times recently. The most recent 2:32:13.760 --> 2:32:17.480 one is y'all issued a statement making you the coverage 2:32:17.480 --> 2:32:19.760 I've seen has said the first labor organization of the 2:32:19.879 --> 2:32:23.960 US to like support gun rights. I mean like as 2:32:24.040 --> 2:32:25.640 is stated in a lot of the stuff you've put out, 2:32:25.680 --> 2:32:28.680 like Blair Mountain. There's a long history of labor organizations 2:32:29.000 --> 2:32:32.600 making use of the Second Amendment. But UM, I certainly 2:32:32.640 --> 2:32:35.520 haven't heard of a labor organization stating at the way 2:32:35.560 --> 2:32:37.960 you did, which is basically the case you've made, is 2:32:38.080 --> 2:32:42.640 because far right fascist organizations are so heavily armed and 2:32:42.720 --> 2:32:46.080 any gut all of the gun control policies being heavily debated, 2:32:46.120 --> 2:32:50.240 at least among liberals, are likely to ignore those people 2:32:50.320 --> 2:32:54.679 while restricting the ability of working class and particularly marginalized 2:32:54.720 --> 2:32:57.960 people to arm themselves. Um, you do not support those 2:32:58.040 --> 2:33:00.880 regulations because you support the rights of those groups to 2:33:00.920 --> 2:33:04.080 be able to defend themselves from fascists. That more or 2:33:04.160 --> 2:33:07.440 less correct. Well, Look, we believe in the right of 2:33:07.520 --> 2:33:13.520 the people to defend themselves, but our policies, including that one, 2:33:13.920 --> 2:33:17.800 are not adopted by the elected leadership, including myself. They're 2:33:17.800 --> 2:33:21.880 adopted by our members. We believe very firmly and democracy 2:33:22.000 --> 2:33:25.440 participaty democracy. So with issues like this, we're happy to 2:33:25.480 --> 2:33:29.000 bring into our convention, which we recently did, and facilitate 2:33:29.040 --> 2:33:32.680 a full debate on the issue. So that's exactly what 2:33:32.800 --> 2:33:35.080 we did. We talked about it, our rank and file 2:33:35.160 --> 2:33:39.279 members talked about it. They made amendments, They debated passionately 2:33:39.480 --> 2:33:43.080 different sides of the issue in a respectful way, in 2:33:43.120 --> 2:33:46.560 a productive way. A number of amendments were made they 2:33:46.600 --> 2:33:49.960 were adopted, and then ultimately the resolution was passed with 2:33:50.160 --> 2:33:53.520 over a two thirds majority of our right file delegates 2:33:53.560 --> 2:33:56.640 in favor. So that's where we are right now. Yeah, 2:33:56.680 --> 2:33:59.760 I've read a bit about this, including you know, there's 2:33:59.800 --> 2:34:02.480 been some critiques from a representative from the a f T, 2:34:02.640 --> 2:34:05.560 which is the local teachers union, but there was also 2:34:05.640 --> 2:34:07.200 a member of the Vermont a f l C i 2:34:07.280 --> 2:34:10.520 oh who essentially stated, like, hey, I didn't actually agree 2:34:10.560 --> 2:34:12.920 with this amendment but or with this resolution, but it 2:34:13.040 --> 2:34:16.600 was made democratically, and like I I support the process 2:34:16.680 --> 2:34:18.120 by which it was done, which is one of the 2:34:18.200 --> 2:34:20.840 things I think is is so interesting here that this 2:34:21.000 --> 2:34:23.800 isn't like um UM a kind of a group of 2:34:23.840 --> 2:34:27.280 activists at the top making declaration declarations. This is an 2:34:27.400 --> 2:34:32.800 organization that is really um dedicated itself. Increasingly too, I 2:34:32.840 --> 2:34:35.160 think a kind of progressive ism that we we haven't 2:34:35.200 --> 2:34:37.120 really seen in an organized way, and a lot of 2:34:37.280 --> 2:34:41.400 the American labor movement until recently. Well, when you're talking 2:34:41.440 --> 2:34:44.000 about democracy in the labor I mean we could be 2:34:44.080 --> 2:34:46.959 just as well talking about democracies in society as such. 2:34:48.320 --> 2:34:52.040 The fact is is that organized labor today is not 2:34:52.280 --> 2:34:55.160 particularly democratic and we're looking to change that, and our 2:34:55.240 --> 2:34:58.120 world is not particularly democratic now. The vision that we 2:34:58.240 --> 2:35:01.279 hold our slate, our progre us of slate called United, 2:35:02.200 --> 2:35:06.519 is one where we increased the means for direct protruciserary democracy, 2:35:06.600 --> 2:35:10.000 both within labor and within our society. So of course 2:35:10.120 --> 2:35:11.680 we're going to go to our members and our rank 2:35:11.760 --> 2:35:14.080 and file and ask them to debate the issues of 2:35:14.120 --> 2:35:17.240 our day and ultimately to make a decision on these 2:35:17.320 --> 2:35:21.840 major political and social issues. This was one we again, 2:35:22.000 --> 2:35:24.920 we do believe that people need to have a rite, 2:35:24.920 --> 2:35:27.040 the working class needs have a right to defend itself, 2:35:27.440 --> 2:35:30.920 and we can't bury our head in the stand. Anybody 2:35:31.000 --> 2:35:33.480 that's even followed a little bit of the news lately 2:35:33.760 --> 2:35:40.680 will know that between November up until late January, we 2:35:40.840 --> 2:35:45.560 were one general shy of a coup in this country, 2:35:46.240 --> 2:35:49.160 in the upside down world that we're now living in. 2:35:49.800 --> 2:35:51.880 It was because of the joint chiefs of Staff and 2:35:51.920 --> 2:35:54.080 the head of the c i A not supporting a 2:35:54.200 --> 2:35:58.000 coup that a neo fascist cou didn't totally in fold 2:35:58.080 --> 2:36:01.360 materialized in a more mature form. Let that sink inform 2:36:01.400 --> 2:36:04.680 it our democracy, or the vestiges of the democracy we 2:36:04.760 --> 2:36:09.320 have in the United States right now is precarious. Uh. 2:36:09.560 --> 2:36:12.400 They just because they've been there for two hundred years 2:36:12.440 --> 2:36:15.040 doesn't mean they're gonna be there tomorrow. The new playbook 2:36:15.200 --> 2:36:19.680 from an increasingly far right Republican Party is to limit 2:36:20.120 --> 2:36:23.080 as much as they possibly could a people's right to 2:36:23.520 --> 2:36:26.200 vote and to participate in the political process. We see 2:36:26.200 --> 2:36:29.359 this happening in Texas, We see this happening in Georgia. 2:36:29.440 --> 2:36:32.039 We see this happening in Florida. We see this happening 2:36:32.080 --> 2:36:34.600 in Red. Uh. I shouldn't say red, but I should 2:36:34.600 --> 2:36:39.480 say Republican states all throughout the US. So these are dangerous, 2:36:39.560 --> 2:36:43.920 dangerous times, right, so dangerous that our top generals were 2:36:43.959 --> 2:36:47.160 trying to decide what their position would be and make 2:36:47.280 --> 2:36:52.080 plans in case a coup, a full encoup, not just 2:36:52.240 --> 2:36:54.600 a hint of a coup, came into being within the 2:36:54.680 --> 2:36:59.240 last year of our republic. Now, given those realities and 2:36:59.400 --> 2:37:02.160 giving the eyes of the far right, given that our 2:37:02.280 --> 2:37:05.960 former president Donald Trump told the neo fascist Proud Boys 2:37:06.080 --> 2:37:09.959 to stand what did you say, stand back and stand by? Yeah, 2:37:10.120 --> 2:37:14.000 that's right. And now at least they claimed that forty 2:37:14.080 --> 2:37:17.560 thous members around the United States and they are armed. Uh, 2:37:18.040 --> 2:37:20.400 you know, we can't just rest in our hurelds and 2:37:20.600 --> 2:37:23.360 and pretend that the state as such is going to 2:37:23.480 --> 2:37:28.840 keep us safe. So it seems prudent and reasonable for 2:37:29.000 --> 2:37:31.160 us to have taken the action and say we defend 2:37:31.480 --> 2:37:37.440 our constitutional right to bear arms as intended to defend 2:37:37.520 --> 2:37:40.760 our communities. They defend our unions, to defend the working class. 2:37:41.080 --> 2:37:42.720 And one of the things that because we were just 2:37:42.840 --> 2:37:45.920 talking about the the coup that very nearly got pulled 2:37:45.959 --> 2:37:49.520 off your organization, at least in UH I believe it 2:37:49.600 --> 2:37:52.560 was right after the election, issued a statement that if 2:37:52.640 --> 2:37:57.000 the president illegally attempted to stay in power, the former president, 2:37:57.120 --> 2:37:59.840 you would participate in an attempt to help organize a 2:38:00.000 --> 2:38:02.879 general strike. Now that's something we talk about a lot 2:38:03.000 --> 2:38:05.240 on this show. We're big believers in the potential of 2:38:05.280 --> 2:38:09.680 a general strike. Were also big believers that the kind 2:38:09.720 --> 2:38:11.720 of general strike that we need to i don't know, 2:38:12.040 --> 2:38:14.640 potentially get climate justice and a number of other major 2:38:14.760 --> 2:38:17.760 things is an undertaking on par with the space race. 2:38:17.840 --> 2:38:21.240 You know, you're talking about an enormous task. I'm really 2:38:21.280 --> 2:38:24.160 interested in picking your brain on when we talk about 2:38:24.160 --> 2:38:27.720 a national general strike, what is the kind of infrastructure 2:38:27.840 --> 2:38:30.400 that's actually necessary to make something like that feasible, because 2:38:30.400 --> 2:38:32.320 there's a lot of talk on like Twitter and Facebook 2:38:32.360 --> 2:38:34.120 of like, let's just do a general strike on this 2:38:34.320 --> 2:38:39.040 day in October I six months doesn't go by, as 2:38:39.120 --> 2:38:41.480 President f l C I o ver month where I 2:38:41.520 --> 2:38:43.880 don't left this group of some kind of contacted me 2:38:44.000 --> 2:38:47.000 to endorse their general strike, right going to shut down 2:38:47.080 --> 2:38:50.400 on datas and it's yet to happen, at least in 2:38:50.440 --> 2:38:54.080 our country. So that's a great question. A couple of things. 2:38:54.840 --> 2:38:58.920 When we voted, and again this wasn't a decision of 2:38:59.000 --> 2:39:01.320 myself and the leadership. This was a decision we went 2:39:01.440 --> 2:39:03.720 back to the rank and file with to our to 2:39:03.800 --> 2:39:08.360 one of our conventions of our delegates, after our long debate, 2:39:08.760 --> 2:39:11.720 voted to authorize the elected deecutive Board to call for 2:39:11.800 --> 2:39:14.080 a general strike in the event of a coup, in 2:39:14.160 --> 2:39:18.000 the event that there wasn't transfer power on January as 2:39:18.080 --> 2:39:22.600 the constitution requires. It was our feeling that in that 2:39:23.040 --> 2:39:27.640 very specific space and time, in that very specific political climate, 2:39:28.840 --> 2:39:32.320 um we would be able to call for such a 2:39:32.400 --> 2:39:35.080 strike and with a serious amount of work and a 2:39:35.120 --> 2:39:38.160 serious amount of organizing, pull that off and make that happen. 2:39:38.240 --> 2:39:40.000 And the thought was if we could do it in Vermont, 2:39:40.040 --> 2:39:42.640 because the call was a further mon channel strike, then 2:39:42.680 --> 2:39:45.400 it could spread to other states, which would be absolutely 2:39:45.480 --> 2:39:49.920 necessary if there was if our country descended into a 2:39:50.000 --> 2:39:54.520 fascist dictatorship of some sort. But generally speaking, when we 2:39:54.600 --> 2:39:56.680 talked about climate issues, when we talked about the fact 2:39:56.760 --> 2:39:59.440 that millions of Americans don't have healthcare or aren't paid 2:39:59.520 --> 2:40:02.120 little Way ages, all of these issues are at least 2:40:02.160 --> 2:40:05.680 these issues together certainly warrant us looking at things like 2:40:05.800 --> 2:40:07.880 a general strike, but they're a bit it's a bit 2:40:07.959 --> 2:40:10.600 phind this guide to think that, hey, we got ten 2:40:10.680 --> 2:40:13.119 grade issues that we want to see progress on, we're 2:40:13.120 --> 2:40:15.200 gonna call for our strike is going to happen. The 2:40:15.320 --> 2:40:18.800 infrastructure is not there, nor is the political will within 2:40:18.879 --> 2:40:21.879 the large labor bodies at this praised present time. Without 2:40:22.000 --> 2:40:24.920 participation from organized labor, first of all, I don't think 2:40:24.920 --> 2:40:27.240 anything is going to happen. So you're gonna have to 2:40:27.320 --> 2:40:29.840 achieve buy in a certain level. But even with buying 2:40:30.080 --> 2:40:34.360 from key leaders or even a localized shop stewards, you 2:40:34.520 --> 2:40:37.480 still need to have infrastructure in place. So one of 2:40:37.560 --> 2:40:40.360 the things that lacks in the a f l C 2:40:40.440 --> 2:40:42.680 I O As a national organization, we don't have an 2:40:42.760 --> 2:40:47.280 effective network of local union contacts in every shop, at 2:40:47.400 --> 2:40:51.440 every shift, in every factory that's represented by union, let 2:40:51.480 --> 2:40:56.000 alone the majority of workplaces at this point that aren't unionized. 2:40:56.520 --> 2:40:59.360 So what our top priority is as far as the 2:40:59.440 --> 2:41:02.440 Vermontney fail diegos over the next two years is to 2:41:02.600 --> 2:41:07.080 build a network of local union contacts in every single 2:41:07.160 --> 2:41:09.520 shop and every single shift that we represent folks here 2:41:09.520 --> 2:41:12.080 in Vermont. So we see this as a way to 2:41:12.360 --> 2:41:15.320 increase communication. Without communication, you're not going to be able 2:41:15.320 --> 2:41:18.360 to pull off mass mobilizations and with and also you're 2:41:18.400 --> 2:41:21.840 not gonna be able to conduct mass education on issues X, 2:41:22.000 --> 2:41:25.119 Y or Z. So over a period of two years, 2:41:25.240 --> 2:41:28.400 we're looking to build this network that would function not 2:41:28.560 --> 2:41:32.160 as a one way means of communication, but almost a 2:41:32.280 --> 2:41:34.640 two or three way. Imagine that this is a way 2:41:34.680 --> 2:41:36.920 for the rank and file to communicate up to the leaders. 2:41:37.560 --> 2:41:39.880 This is a way for the leadership to communicate down 2:41:40.000 --> 2:41:42.039 to the ranks, I mean down to the lunch room 2:41:42.160 --> 2:41:44.320 level of what it means to be in a union shop. 2:41:44.959 --> 2:41:47.960 And also ideally it's going to be a way for 2:41:48.440 --> 2:41:53.400 local union leaders to horizontally communicate with each other. With 2:41:53.640 --> 2:41:56.720 such a structure in place on a grand scale, on 2:41:56.800 --> 2:41:59.840 a state scale, on a federal scale, then things like 2:42:00.200 --> 2:42:04.360 organized general strikes over political issues and social issues become feasible. 2:42:04.920 --> 2:42:07.120 And even when they're feasible, though, then we still have 2:42:07.240 --> 2:42:10.400 the political question of you know, will they be supported 2:42:10.400 --> 2:42:13.160 by the internationals, will they be supported by the executive 2:42:13.160 --> 2:42:15.600 board of the National a f c O. And that's 2:42:15.600 --> 2:42:18.880 a huge conversation, you know. So, Yeah, it's interesting to 2:42:18.920 --> 2:42:21.360 me hearing your perspective on this, because my experience with 2:42:21.480 --> 2:42:24.680 kind of activism UM has been much more of kind 2:42:24.720 --> 2:42:27.640 of the decentralized and kind of much more recent groups, 2:42:27.680 --> 2:42:31.080 you know, since occupy. Um, you're dealing with these these 2:42:31.160 --> 2:42:33.000 structures that in a lot of cases or I mean 2:42:33.000 --> 2:42:34.520 the A f l c I O goes back like 2:42:34.600 --> 2:42:38.200 what like a century, right one one way or the other. Yeah, 2:42:38.760 --> 2:42:41.840 you know, I think, UM, because of kind of how 2:42:42.720 --> 2:42:45.160 shall I say online, a lot of the discussion about 2:42:45.160 --> 2:42:48.800 this stuff seems to be organized labor often gets left out. 2:42:48.840 --> 2:42:50.039 And one of the things that I think is most 2:42:50.080 --> 2:42:54.680 important when talking about the value that organized labor has 2:42:54.720 --> 2:42:56.640 in any kind of discussion if a general strike is 2:42:56.680 --> 2:43:02.000 what happened during the during the Jet UH negotiations or 2:43:02.000 --> 2:43:03.840 whatever you want to call them in twenty nineteen, where 2:43:03.920 --> 2:43:08.199 you you had UM airline workers threatening a general strike 2:43:08.320 --> 2:43:11.440 that effectively brought it into too a president's saber rattling 2:43:11.560 --> 2:43:16.360 over over the budget like it's it's president Sarah Nelson. Yeah, 2:43:16.640 --> 2:43:18.320 headlines over that and that was the right thing to 2:43:18.440 --> 2:43:22.880 do about her and would love to sear in a 2:43:23.080 --> 2:43:26.720 stronger positional leadership the national level. Well, I'm interested because 2:43:26.720 --> 2:43:29.880 I I see a lot of potential in Obviously organized 2:43:29.920 --> 2:43:31.960 labor has had a lot of problems, particularly in the 2:43:32.040 --> 2:43:34.800 last you know, during my lifetime, UM, And I think 2:43:34.879 --> 2:43:36.920 part of it is what you said earlier, there's it's 2:43:36.959 --> 2:43:40.440 not as democratic as it should be at most levels. UM. 2:43:40.720 --> 2:43:44.680 What you guys have done with United is attempting to 2:43:44.760 --> 2:43:48.840 reform that, you know within Vermont. I'm wondering, first, how 2:43:48.920 --> 2:43:51.119 did that kind of come about? You know, twenty nineteen 2:43:51.200 --> 2:43:53.520 is when you first got got put into office, when 2:43:53.600 --> 2:43:55.280 when the United State got put in the to the 2:43:55.400 --> 2:43:58.240 office in Vermont? What was kind of the back story 2:43:58.320 --> 2:44:00.640 to that? And then my second is kind of what 2:44:00.680 --> 2:44:03.760 do you see as necessary to like what what what's 2:44:03.959 --> 2:44:06.160 what's the fight, as you see it, to get stuff 2:44:06.240 --> 2:44:09.200 like that done on a larger scale around the country. 2:44:10.840 --> 2:44:13.960 So our story in Vermont is probably a lot like 2:44:14.440 --> 2:44:18.440 the story of organized labor in many different places. Our 2:44:18.520 --> 2:44:22.600 starting point. So in two thousand and seventeen, not that 2:44:22.760 --> 2:44:27.360 long ago, ah, we had a convention with something like 2:44:27.560 --> 2:44:31.280 twenty or twenty five delegates there. Imagine that twenty delegates 2:44:31.320 --> 2:44:34.000 representing ten at the time, ten thousand we've grown since 2:44:34.080 --> 2:44:37.720 the but ten thousand members that's called the democracy. So 2:44:38.600 --> 2:44:42.280 there was a problem, an existential problem. Now I come 2:44:42.320 --> 2:44:46.800 out of asked me localeen in the northeast kingdom of Vermont. 2:44:47.320 --> 2:44:50.160 So when I got together with a number of other 2:44:50.320 --> 2:44:53.720 leaders from different unions different asked me locals, but also 2:44:54.240 --> 2:44:58.119 United Academics is part of a f T the building trades. 2:44:58.280 --> 2:45:02.200 A number of folks, there was a general recognition at 2:45:02.240 --> 2:45:05.600 the leadership level that something was very wrong. Member participation 2:45:05.879 --> 2:45:08.680 was weakest can be, and things have to change. And 2:45:08.800 --> 2:45:12.800 we continually as an organization, you know, with some exceptions, 2:45:12.959 --> 2:45:17.560 hitch our wagon to the shortcomings that are the Democratic Party. 2:45:18.720 --> 2:45:23.160 So all of these things together led to inactivity, apathy, 2:45:23.480 --> 2:45:28.200 and lack of democracy. So we started going around, we 2:45:28.280 --> 2:45:31.199 started talking with workers, we started talking with shops across 2:45:31.240 --> 2:45:33.160 the state, and one of the first things that was 2:45:33.240 --> 2:45:35.720 striking people would say they would know what union there 2:45:35.760 --> 2:45:38.560 and be at a PW or asking or whatever it was. 2:45:39.320 --> 2:45:41.920 But we'd say, listen, we're talking. We're thinking about running 2:45:41.920 --> 2:45:44.640 a slate progressive slave for office with to take the 2:45:44.720 --> 2:45:46.279 a f l c i O in a new direction. 2:45:46.840 --> 2:45:48.280 The next thing they would say, is, what's the a 2:45:48.400 --> 2:45:53.480 f l c I M think about that? Right, workers involved, 2:45:53.600 --> 2:45:56.760 some of which were union stewarts and their locals didn't 2:45:56.800 --> 2:45:58.760 even know what the a f l c I O was. 2:45:59.440 --> 2:46:02.200 So that was our starting point. It was an excellent 2:46:02.600 --> 2:46:07.360 crisis of labor. And mind you, during these what I 2:46:07.400 --> 2:46:12.240 would call some dark periods, we would often endorse a 2:46:12.400 --> 2:46:16.519 hundred candidates for state House, nearly all of which being Democrats, 2:46:17.520 --> 2:46:20.680 and then we they would win. They would win their elections, 2:46:21.000 --> 2:46:24.960 like largely our candidates win, and then we get nothing 2:46:25.360 --> 2:46:27.760 in the state House. Right, There'd be no labor bill, 2:46:27.800 --> 2:46:30.240 there'd be no advance in a card check. Differently before 2:46:30.280 --> 2:46:33.480 the organized labor and yet we keep repeating the same 2:46:33.560 --> 2:46:36.080 mistake year and year out and not figure out that 2:46:36.200 --> 2:46:39.959 something was wrong. So when we formed the United State 2:46:40.080 --> 2:46:42.280 as a coalition of a number of different unions to 2:46:42.360 --> 2:46:45.200 recognized it was time for change, we really brought the 2:46:45.280 --> 2:46:48.560 discussion into the grassroots level. We developed a ten point 2:46:48.680 --> 2:46:51.520 program we called our little read Book. It's now the 2:46:51.600 --> 2:46:54.880 policy and the platform of the Vermont a fl c I, 2:46:55.720 --> 2:46:58.800 and we ran an organized campaign based on that right 2:46:58.800 --> 2:47:03.039 at a very local level. And here we did all 2:47:03.120 --> 2:47:05.080 the things that you know you should be doing, the 2:47:05.280 --> 2:47:08.040 phone calls, the emails, the shop visits, all of this 2:47:08.480 --> 2:47:10.960 and created a sense of excitement going into our two 2:47:11.360 --> 2:47:15.920 nine convention. Our two thousand nineteen convention with over if 2:47:15.959 --> 2:47:18.640 I recall over a hundred and five delegates and alternates, 2:47:19.680 --> 2:47:23.280 was the largest convention we had up here in in 2:47:23.440 --> 2:47:27.160 something like thirty plus years. So that was an exciting 2:47:27.240 --> 2:47:30.200 atmosphere where something was going to be different and something 2:47:30.400 --> 2:47:34.000 was going to change right. So we swept. We essentially 2:47:34.080 --> 2:47:36.760 slept those elections. We want all the seats except for one. 2:47:37.360 --> 2:47:39.959 We had a follow up convention in two UM sorry 2:47:40.000 --> 2:47:43.800 election in two where we won every single seat, and 2:47:43.959 --> 2:47:47.120 then in the last election UM we won all seats 2:47:48.000 --> 2:47:50.640 except for one where one person who's a good, good 2:47:50.720 --> 2:47:54.200 person from the building trades ran but was not part 2:47:54.240 --> 2:47:57.120 of our state. So the real question is what have 2:47:57.240 --> 2:47:59.600 we done in the intern How are we changing that 2:47:59.720 --> 2:48:02.040 direct and how are we changing trying to seek to 2:48:02.120 --> 2:48:04.720 change the capacity of labor, and what lessons does it 2:48:04.760 --> 2:48:09.960 add to the national room? How would suppose so on that? 2:48:10.120 --> 2:48:12.040 For one of the first things we did is we 2:48:12.120 --> 2:48:14.880 took money out of our lobbying operation and put it 2:48:14.959 --> 2:48:18.920 into an organizing department, whereby we would hire and we 2:48:19.040 --> 2:48:22.720 have hired on call organizers to assist our affiliates in 2:48:22.800 --> 2:48:26.480 either new organizing or internal organizing, therefore delivering an actual 2:48:26.600 --> 2:48:30.000 benefits to our affiliate unions. Now, mind you, we represent 2:48:30.120 --> 2:48:32.800 just about every sector of workers all across the state, 2:48:33.320 --> 2:48:39.640 but forever they very rarely got a concrete, measurable acts 2:48:39.680 --> 2:48:43.119 of solidarity from the Federation as such, right because all 2:48:43.160 --> 2:48:45.320 of a lot of too many of the resources were 2:48:45.360 --> 2:48:48.360 put in belomming. And we also took a critical eye 2:48:48.440 --> 2:48:53.320 towards the Democratic Party, and recently we've instead endorsed the 2:48:53.600 --> 2:48:57.840 Social Democratic for more progressive party slates and their runs 2:48:57.959 --> 2:49:01.200 for State House and state at office. In many cases, 2:49:01.840 --> 2:49:04.720 so we've done a few things differently we're continuing to 2:49:04.760 --> 2:49:07.400 do things differently. We've expanded the size of our executive 2:49:07.400 --> 2:49:10.440 board so you we elect more leaders now. We've more 2:49:10.520 --> 2:49:12.960 than double the size of the delegates afforded to each 2:49:13.040 --> 2:49:15.520 local so we could have more rank and foot file 2:49:15.600 --> 2:49:20.080 voices present when we're meeting at a convention. And we've 2:49:20.160 --> 2:49:24.560 taken a strong um social justice position where we think 2:49:24.640 --> 2:49:28.160 that organized labor must work very closely in an alliance, 2:49:28.240 --> 2:49:31.879 form alliances with groups like Migrant Justice or Black Perspective 2:49:32.640 --> 2:49:37.400 or environmental organizations like three fifty dot org. And we've 2:49:37.440 --> 2:49:39.600 done those things, worked on their issues where we have 2:49:39.720 --> 2:49:42.000 common interests, and we've asked them to support us on 2:49:42.160 --> 2:49:45.720 art issues where where they may have some common interests. 2:49:46.160 --> 2:49:48.320 So those are things that are very different that the 2:49:48.440 --> 2:49:52.600 national AFLC has not doing. Other state labor federations largely 2:49:53.000 --> 2:49:56.640 aren't doing enough. And we're hoping now to build that out. 2:49:57.320 --> 2:50:02.480 And we're engaging conversations seeking to form a national progressive 2:50:02.520 --> 2:50:07.120 Caucus within the National Act. And I think that's so 2:50:07.240 --> 2:50:09.880 important when you talk about kind of on the national 2:50:10.000 --> 2:50:16.280 level for progressives number one to not not continually kind 2:50:16.280 --> 2:50:19.720 of reflectively support the Democratic Party when the Democratics parties 2:50:20.000 --> 2:50:22.600 is failing progressives, which you know, we have a perfect 2:50:22.720 --> 2:50:27.480 case study right now in Congress with the the Reconciliation Bill. Um. 2:50:27.800 --> 2:50:31.760 It often does seem like such an insurmountable task just 2:50:31.920 --> 2:50:35.240 because the inability like a bill, the three point five 2:50:35.280 --> 2:50:38.600 trillion dollar infrastructure bill, is so widely supported by Americans, 2:50:39.200 --> 2:50:41.880 but it it just keeps coming down to this tiny 2:50:41.959 --> 2:50:47.160 number of folks with uh, you know, financial interests and donors, um, 2:50:47.360 --> 2:50:50.160 who are who are pushing against something that's widely supported. 2:50:50.240 --> 2:50:54.000 And I feel um optimistic when I look at state 2:50:54.120 --> 2:50:57.000 organizations like what y'all are doing and the fact that 2:50:57.120 --> 2:51:00.440 I can see something building, but I also it does 2:51:00.560 --> 2:51:03.600 it is such a titanic task to imagine translating that 2:51:03.720 --> 2:51:05.800 on a national scale in a way that actually gets 2:51:05.879 --> 2:51:08.440 us the things that you know, we we really can't 2:51:08.480 --> 2:51:11.120 wait for when you're talking about some of this infrastructure stuff, 2:51:11.120 --> 2:51:13.640 when you're talking about healthcare, when you're talking about climate justice, Like, 2:51:14.560 --> 2:51:17.160 I do feel the clock ticking um, and I'm wondering 2:51:17.200 --> 2:51:19.640 what you see as the hope on the national scale 2:51:19.720 --> 2:51:26.200 for actually putting some muscle behind the progressive movement. Well, look, 2:51:26.240 --> 2:51:29.720 it's not just the the issues of the Infrastructure bill 2:51:29.800 --> 2:51:32.600 and the budget bill. It's also the Proact right the 2:51:33.400 --> 2:51:37.360 bill that is language in the Senate. And let's not 2:51:37.560 --> 2:51:41.680 lose track of the fact that those efforts are all 2:51:41.920 --> 2:51:46.080 stalling and likely very likely to fail. And I hope 2:51:46.120 --> 2:51:50.240 they don't because of Democrats, because the Democratic Party is 2:51:50.320 --> 2:51:52.560 not united. They ran on a platform saying they were 2:51:52.600 --> 2:51:54.800 going to do X, Y and Z, and now when 2:51:54.840 --> 2:51:56.600 they're in a position to carry it out, they are 2:51:56.680 --> 2:52:00.120 not going to do it. And Joe Manchin uh far 2:52:00.160 --> 2:52:03.000 as I'm concerned, uh column a class trader, but I 2:52:03.040 --> 2:52:05.280 don't think he's ever was part of the working class. 2:52:06.160 --> 2:52:08.600 He claims to support the Proact, but in the same 2:52:08.640 --> 2:52:11.120 breath he he won't get rid of the filibuster. So, 2:52:11.360 --> 2:52:13.600 I mean, that's absolute bullshit as far as I'm concerned. 2:52:14.120 --> 2:52:17.560 So how do we change that? Well, the National a 2:52:17.720 --> 2:52:20.480 f l c I O puts millions and millions and 2:52:20.560 --> 2:52:24.400 millions of dollars into elections. We have gotten so many 2:52:24.400 --> 2:52:28.240 of these people elected and back them in Arizona and 2:52:28.280 --> 2:52:31.240 West Virginia, you name it, and then we get nothing back. 2:52:31.720 --> 2:52:34.240 If we were to take that money instead and put 2:52:34.320 --> 2:52:39.599 it into a robust new organizing department or a recrafted 2:52:39.720 --> 2:52:45.280 organizing department and actually assigned reel on the ground organizers 2:52:45.640 --> 2:52:48.320 in every single state in the country to help our affiliates, 2:52:48.400 --> 2:52:52.279 to help our state federations and their affiliates to internally organized, 2:52:52.320 --> 2:52:54.160 to build a kind of network I talked was talking 2:52:54.160 --> 2:52:56.920 to me about before, and to be active and build 2:52:56.920 --> 2:53:00.280 alliance as the social justice group, our power would be 2:53:00.640 --> 2:53:04.840 amplified five million fold. This is the way we do it. 2:53:05.200 --> 2:53:07.960 Politicians aren't going to do what's right because it's right. 2:53:08.360 --> 2:53:10.640 Politicians are gonna do what's right when they feel so 2:53:10.760 --> 2:53:13.480 much pressure that they have to do it. Now, the 2:53:13.640 --> 2:53:16.760 victories that we saw for working people during the Great 2:53:16.800 --> 2:53:20.760 Depression under FDR, that wasn't just because FDR thought, you know, 2:53:20.879 --> 2:53:22.840 this is the right thing to do. It's because people 2:53:22.879 --> 2:53:25.400 are going on strike, because people were organized because they 2:53:25.440 --> 2:53:29.119 were scared of revolutionary change in this country. So turned 2:53:29.200 --> 2:53:34.080 to meaningful, true, true um major reforms as a way 2:53:34.160 --> 2:53:38.360 to blunt that perceived threat that they have. And that's 2:53:38.400 --> 2:53:40.840 what we got to get back to. Not our power 2:53:40.959 --> 2:53:43.600 is never gonna grow from people who are wearing ties 2:53:43.680 --> 2:53:46.000 in Washington. Our power is gonna grow based on our 2:53:46.080 --> 2:53:49.640 solidarity on the shop floor and in our communities. So 2:53:49.800 --> 2:53:51.520 that's the direction we gotta go, and we got to 2:53:51.560 --> 2:53:55.040 do that rapidly, very rapidly. It's been clear to me 2:53:55.120 --> 2:53:58.720 for quite a while both that the reason workers gained 2:53:58.800 --> 2:54:01.120 so much in the way of the Great Depression and 2:54:01.360 --> 2:54:02.960 the only kind of hope we have for doing that 2:54:03.040 --> 2:54:05.960 now is UM, they have to be scared, you know, 2:54:06.080 --> 2:54:08.200 to an extent, they have to be scared of of 2:54:08.400 --> 2:54:11.560 what's arrayed against them, both in its organization and in 2:54:11.640 --> 2:54:17.360 its ability to disrupt things. UM. And I'm wondering what 2:54:17.520 --> 2:54:21.160 you think people listening, people UM, who maybe are not 2:54:21.320 --> 2:54:24.640 involved in organized labor, Like what what what do you 2:54:24.760 --> 2:54:28.640 think people can do to further those ends? Like this 2:54:28.879 --> 2:54:30.960 is like when we when we start talking about national 2:54:31.040 --> 2:54:33.240 level a f l C, I O politics, that's not 2:54:33.400 --> 2:54:36.840 something I think most people listening feel like they have 2:54:37.200 --> 2:54:40.040 any kind of ability to influence. Um, what do you 2:54:40.080 --> 2:54:42.440 think they can influence? What do you think people can 2:54:42.520 --> 2:54:47.000 be doing to build that kind of capacity. Well, you 2:54:47.080 --> 2:54:50.600 gotta be active, and you've got to engage in the 2:54:51.040 --> 2:54:54.880 political and social movements. But also most folks, you know, 2:54:54.920 --> 2:54:56.920 they're going to have a job of some time and 2:54:57.040 --> 2:54:59.000 a lot of folks aren't getting treated the way they 2:54:59.040 --> 2:55:00.760 should in their job. Don't care if you work in 2:55:00.760 --> 2:55:03.480 a coffee shop, in a restaurant, or in a gas station, 2:55:04.400 --> 2:55:08.080 or in manufacturing, and you could start by organizing with 2:55:08.160 --> 2:55:11.160 your coworkers to form a union. Today, you know, you 2:55:11.240 --> 2:55:13.840 could reach out to a local union to ask for 2:55:13.920 --> 2:55:15.760 help where you could do it on your own. Frankly, 2:55:16.240 --> 2:55:18.680 but if we're not organized as working people, and we 2:55:18.760 --> 2:55:22.440 are we are most of the world. If we're not 2:55:22.680 --> 2:55:25.520 organized amongst ourselves, we're not going to be able to 2:55:26.280 --> 2:55:28.600 become that expression of power that we need to be 2:55:29.240 --> 2:55:31.200 in order to create the change. If we're just a 2:55:31.280 --> 2:55:36.120 collection of individuals, then the ruling class, the wealthy, the powerful, 2:55:36.200 --> 2:55:39.160 the elite, they're gonna have all their ducks in a 2:55:39.280 --> 2:55:42.800 row to keep us divided and to keep their foot 2:55:42.840 --> 2:55:45.480 on the pedal of the status quo. So we need 2:55:45.560 --> 2:55:48.080 to come together, We need to organize in the natural 2:55:48.160 --> 2:55:52.840 place to organize is in the workplace. In my opinion, yeah, 2:55:52.920 --> 2:55:55.880 I mean it. It is the natural place to organize. 2:55:56.000 --> 2:55:59.120 It's also become an increasingly difficult place to organize. We 2:55:59.160 --> 2:56:02.760 all watch what Amazon did in Bessemer this year, um 2:56:02.959 --> 2:56:06.840 and and that fight is still ongoing to an extent. Um, 2:56:07.520 --> 2:56:11.360 but it is Uh, it is a continuing challenge, um 2:56:12.320 --> 2:56:16.200 to to actually effectively unionized in a lot of the 2:56:16.240 --> 2:56:19.360 industries where it matters most you know, um, like we 2:56:19.440 --> 2:56:22.960 have some choke point industries, like we talked about aircraft 2:56:23.000 --> 2:56:25.680 employees that are heavily unionized, thankfully, and that do have 2:56:25.800 --> 2:56:28.360 a lot of power, as has been demonstrated recently when 2:56:28.440 --> 2:56:31.800 they when they go to the mat. Um. But I 2:56:32.120 --> 2:56:35.040 I'm interested in kind of we we've got, you know, 2:56:35.120 --> 2:56:39.200 Amazon employees is really one of the areas that I'm 2:56:39.440 --> 2:56:42.360 looking at where, my god, if if we could actually 2:56:42.480 --> 2:56:45.280 if something significant could actually get off the ground and 2:56:45.480 --> 2:56:48.480 a significant number of those workers could get organized, it 2:56:48.560 --> 2:56:51.920 could make a real difference. Um. But you know you've 2:56:52.040 --> 2:56:56.160 got effectively what are community organizations for the most part 2:56:56.240 --> 2:56:59.080 going up against um. You know, Amazon at this point 2:56:59.120 --> 2:57:01.840 has more resources in most nation states. Yeah, but so 2:57:02.000 --> 2:57:05.120 did the Carnegies and the Rockefellas and the folks like 2:57:05.240 --> 2:57:09.560 this and and arm and it's always been hard, uh 2:57:10.120 --> 2:57:13.760 too long ago in our country, maybe during our grandfather's day, 2:57:13.800 --> 2:57:15.800 where there was a very good chance to be shot 2:57:15.920 --> 2:57:18.320 or at least beat over the head with a club 2:57:18.800 --> 2:57:21.480 from the Pinkerton's if you try to organize, organizing has 2:57:21.560 --> 2:57:26.160 never been easy, and such as Columbia today trade unionists 2:57:26.160 --> 2:57:30.279 are killed at an unbelievable clip, almost on a daily basis, 2:57:30.360 --> 2:57:34.160 and yet still they organized. So I'm not suggesting to 2:57:34.280 --> 2:57:37.480 any of your listeners that if this is easy, what 2:57:37.600 --> 2:57:40.879 I am that it has to happen. It has to happen. 2:57:41.240 --> 2:57:45.400 And there's different models too, Like in some places, one 2:57:45.440 --> 2:57:48.800 of the models that's been effectively used as forming workers centers, right, 2:57:48.840 --> 2:57:52.240 So that's not a traditional union. It's a center in 2:57:52.320 --> 2:57:54.360 a city, or in a community or in a town 2:57:55.000 --> 2:57:58.720 where workers come together and strategized right at a in 2:57:58.760 --> 2:58:02.320 a location, to st atogize how to be effective as 2:58:02.360 --> 2:58:05.480 a group, as a whole, as a class on issues 2:58:05.720 --> 2:58:08.120 that are important to them, you know, be an economic, 2:58:08.200 --> 2:58:11.000 be its social, be it um, finding against racism, whatever 2:58:11.080 --> 2:58:14.440 it may be. That's a model that I suggest folks 2:58:14.480 --> 2:58:17.760 could could look into as an alternative way. If, for 2:58:17.879 --> 2:58:20.959 whatever reason, you don't feel that the time is right 2:58:21.120 --> 2:58:23.560 for a union in your shop today, although it needs 2:58:23.640 --> 2:58:26.280 to be tomorrow, take a look at workers center and 2:58:26.360 --> 2:58:28.600 see if there's one in your community. Get involved, if 2:58:28.680 --> 2:58:31.120 not get together a few people and see what it 2:58:31.160 --> 2:58:33.320 would take to start when where you live. But one 2:58:33.320 --> 2:58:35.120 way or another, we have to be organized, We have 2:58:35.240 --> 2:58:37.879 to come together. We cannot just be a collection of individuals. 2:58:38.640 --> 2:58:41.720 That's a great point, UM, and useful information. I think 2:58:41.800 --> 2:58:43.480 kind of the last thing I wanted to get into 2:58:44.280 --> 2:58:46.199 UM was one of the things I first learned about 2:58:46.240 --> 2:58:49.720 your organization that you issued a solidarity statement back and 2:58:49.760 --> 2:58:52.880 I think it was two thousand nineteen UM with the 2:58:53.480 --> 2:58:57.560 YPG and J and Rojaba. UM. And you've issued you 2:58:57.640 --> 2:59:00.160 know it stated your solidarity with Black Lives Matter, with 2:59:00.440 --> 2:59:04.680 the Zapatista's currently what they're undergoing in Mexico UM, which 2:59:04.760 --> 2:59:07.960 is massive repression from the government yet again. UM. And 2:59:08.320 --> 2:59:11.640 you know your support of Palestinian rights and of against 2:59:11.680 --> 2:59:14.200 sort of the U S occupation or not occupation, but 2:59:14.320 --> 2:59:17.960 a blockade of Cuba. UM. What do you see when 2:59:18.040 --> 2:59:21.640 we're talking about this struggle, this broad struggle we've be 2:59:21.640 --> 2:59:22.840 talking about all day, what do you see as the 2:59:22.920 --> 2:59:26.520 role of internationalism in both in both organizing people in 2:59:26.680 --> 2:59:33.320 organizing resistance. Well, our starting point today is capital is international. 2:59:33.560 --> 2:59:37.720 So if we're going to have a foundational challenge to 2:59:37.840 --> 2:59:40.960 the power of capital. We also have to be internationalists 2:59:41.080 --> 2:59:46.120 in our outbow. We supported the YPG, the YPJ and 2:59:46.840 --> 2:59:51.199 the newly elected government in Rojaba because they are struggling 2:59:51.440 --> 2:59:55.600 for economic equity and a direct history democracy in that 2:59:55.680 --> 2:59:57.480 corner of the world. We see this as the most 2:59:57.520 --> 3:00:03.560 significant revolution in in the world, uh in generations. I 3:00:03.600 --> 3:00:06.040 mean this in our mind is on far with the 3:00:06.080 --> 3:00:08.600 Spanish Civil War and what we saw around Barcelona and 3:00:08.640 --> 3:00:11.360 the c n T then or the Paris Commune of 3:00:11.520 --> 3:00:14.560 eight seventy one. If this was happening in Europe, a 3:00:14.640 --> 3:00:17.039 day wouldn't go by where this wouldn't be front page news. 3:00:17.640 --> 3:00:21.640 But in the Western world we often the corporate media 3:00:21.760 --> 3:00:24.800 terms of blind eye too many of those starters. So 3:00:25.200 --> 3:00:27.360 they're doing their part, and we have to do our 3:00:27.440 --> 3:00:30.000 part in our country to the Zabatistas are doing their 3:00:30.080 --> 3:00:33.959 part in Schiapas in broaderways in some regards in Mexico 3:00:34.000 --> 3:00:37.640 as such, but we need to reach our hand out 3:00:37.800 --> 3:00:40.960 and encouragement and say hey, we're here to support you. 3:00:42.120 --> 3:00:44.880 One of the things we sought to concretely do in 3:00:45.000 --> 3:00:48.280 the Vermont labor movement is in two thousand nineteen one 3:00:48.320 --> 3:00:51.320 of our Central Labor count Council's passed the resolutions for it. 3:00:51.879 --> 3:00:54.840 We said, look, if you go over to fight and 3:00:55.000 --> 3:00:57.920 volunteer with the YEPG and y PJ, because there's thousands 3:00:57.959 --> 3:01:01.800 of volunteers right uh, they're volunteered to go over, if 3:01:01.840 --> 3:01:04.040 you return and your American will hook you up with 3:01:04.160 --> 3:01:07.520 a union job, and we'll hook you up with three 3:01:07.640 --> 3:01:10.280 months of room and board so you could get reacclimated, 3:01:10.360 --> 3:01:12.160 you could get back into the community and get back 3:01:12.200 --> 3:01:14.600 into the local fight through the labor movement. And we 3:01:14.760 --> 3:01:18.160 were proud to actually have an opportunity to do that 3:01:18.320 --> 3:01:21.720 for one returning American fighter in our latest resolution in 3:01:21.800 --> 3:01:24.640 two one, and this one was broader because it was 3:01:24.720 --> 3:01:27.920 the whole vermonti a FO, not just the Central Labor Council. 3:01:28.400 --> 3:01:32.400 We again offered, we encourage folks to feel so inclined 3:01:32.480 --> 3:01:34.680 if they're in that place in their life to volunteer 3:01:34.720 --> 3:01:37.200 with the YPG and y p A. And if they're 3:01:37.200 --> 3:01:39.360 Americans and they come back, we're happy to hook you up. 3:01:39.400 --> 3:01:40.920 We'll do our best to get you a good union 3:01:41.000 --> 3:01:43.240 job when you return. So we felt that was a 3:01:43.400 --> 3:01:45.360 very small least we could do kind of thing, but 3:01:45.480 --> 3:01:50.080 concrete way to provide solidarity. We all have to stand together. 3:01:50.200 --> 3:01:52.360 It's really one fight. But the place we're going to 3:01:52.400 --> 3:01:56.200 be effective is where you live locally, in your town, 3:01:56.320 --> 3:02:00.680 in your city, and your state and in your country. Yeah. 3:02:00.720 --> 3:02:02.640 I think that's a great note to end on and 3:02:02.720 --> 3:02:04.960 a great thing that you all are doing. And I 3:02:05.080 --> 3:02:07.760 really do appreciate that, and I appreciate you, David coming 3:02:07.840 --> 3:02:10.520 on and talking to us today. Um, is there anything 3:02:10.560 --> 3:02:13.040 else you wanted to to to get out or anything 3:02:13.080 --> 3:02:15.680 you wanted to like any you know, charities or or 3:02:15.840 --> 3:02:18.959 mutual aid funds or whatever you wanted to uh push 3:02:19.040 --> 3:02:21.840 before we kind of roll out today. I'd just like 3:02:21.959 --> 3:02:26.040 to push for folks to go to workout tomorrow and organize. 3:02:26.240 --> 3:02:29.199 Organize with your fellow workers and let's change the world solidarity. 3:02:29.760 --> 3:02:36.080 Thank you, David. Robert Evans here, and I wanted to 3:02:36.120 --> 3:02:38.680 ask for your health. There is a Portland area woman, 3:02:38.760 --> 3:02:41.640 Ruba to mem She's an Arabic interpreter and a Palestinian 3:02:41.720 --> 3:02:44.800 liberation activist, and she is trying to save her home 3:02:45.120 --> 3:02:47.440 at the moment. She's got to go fund me. If 3:02:47.480 --> 3:02:50.760 you go to save Ruba's house, are you be a 3:02:51.000 --> 3:02:53.720 on go fund bank, you'll find it. Save Ruba's House 3:02:53.800 --> 3:02:56.280 on go fund Me if you've got a few bucks, um, 3:02:56.400 --> 3:02:59.119 she could really use it again. Save Ruba's House. Are 3:02:59.200 --> 3:03:02.960 you be a at go fund Me? Thanks? Hey, We'll 3:03:02.959 --> 3:03:06.040 be back Monday with more episodes every week from now 3:03:06.160 --> 3:03:08.960 until the heat death of the universe. It Could Happen 3:03:09.000 --> 3:03:11.280 Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more 3:03:11.360 --> 3:03:14.120 podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone 3:03:14.160 --> 3:03:16.000 media dot com, or check us out on the I 3:03:16.120 --> 3:03:19.320 Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 3:03:19.959 --> 3:03:22.040 You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 3:03:22.160 --> 3:03:25.600 monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks 3:03:25.640 --> 3:03:26.119 for listening.