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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. This is it could happen here,

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Speaker 1: a podcast that I opened perfectly as a professional, as

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Speaker 1: a man who makes all of his money from the

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Speaker 1: podcasts uh no, notes, How is syphilis doing these days?

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Speaker 1: You don't hear a lot from syphilis? Is it? Is

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Speaker 1: it holding up? Okay, yeah, it's around. It's fine, Thank

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Speaker 1: you for asking it. I didn't know that it's not

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Speaker 1: the same thread it used to be. It comes back

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Speaker 1: in waves every now and then. It has had a

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Speaker 1: good run for a couple of years, kind of like

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Speaker 1: Star Trek. Right, yeah, yeah, there's a well, I don't

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Speaker 1: think there's like new versions of it. I think it's

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Speaker 1: like the same, good old syphilis pretty much. I don't

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Speaker 1: think it changes drastically, So it's like Star Trek on Netflix. Yeah, yeah, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: good to hear from syphilis. This has been your syphilis update.

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Speaker 1: That's gonna do it for us this week until next week.

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Speaker 1: I've been Robert Evans, Dr Cavejota, and of course Garrison Davis. Alright,

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Speaker 1: b everyone by. It would be pretty funny to just

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Speaker 1: do that, so FA, to just drop a one and

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Speaker 1: a half minute episode on, But only if we put

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Speaker 1: in ads. M yeah, we really like every word. We

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Speaker 1: have a full ad break in between. Yeah, then then

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Speaker 1: people would probably complain lest about the nine dads that

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Speaker 1: are in our episodes. Right now, I can talk about

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Speaker 1: what are we what are we doing right now? What

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Speaker 1: is this episode about? What's going on? I'm assuming you

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Speaker 1: guys want to talk about the coronavirus or I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I can talk about whatever you want, but I think

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Speaker 1: that's probably what you guys has brought me on for.

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Speaker 1: All Right, what do we what is this coronavirus? Is

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Speaker 1: this a problem? It's a little problem. It's not good

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Speaker 1: to hear it's it's it's not great. So why didn't

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Speaker 1: you give me a heads up on this? So? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that that's me not giving you heads up on the

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Speaker 1: plank The figures talking about hear anything about this is

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Speaker 1: the thing, that's why you got those two jabs in

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Speaker 1: your arms and that random parking lot. Oh I thought

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Speaker 1: that was heroin. Sorry. First of all, can can we

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Speaker 1: talk about the use of the word jab. I don't

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Speaker 1: love it. It's I mean, you're not James Bond, you don't.

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Speaker 1: Let's not use jab. I prefer it's fair. I prefer

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Speaker 1: what I think is the proper medical term vein fucked. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but it's not really your vein either. It's really just

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Speaker 1: intra muscular fucked. Oh right, muscle fucked yeah. I mean,

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Speaker 1: what are the cool kids calling it? Is it a poke?

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Speaker 1: What do we want the teens call? Is it? Are

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Speaker 1: they calling it the TikTok's? Yeah, it's called it's called

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Speaker 1: the TikTok. I don't know. I've I've been been working on.

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Speaker 1: I've been working on all all day Today've been working

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Speaker 1: to find this proud boy who's pretending to take COVID

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Speaker 1: vaccines but it's actually steroids. Um. He calls the critical support,

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Speaker 1: he calls the extracurriculars. Okay, So that honestly rules, that's

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Speaker 1: extremely funny. I'm hoping an article will be by the

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Speaker 1: time this podcast airs. So, uh, who's the article for

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure yet. I'm talking with Opossum Press. Okay, cool,

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Speaker 1: Well that's funny, Garrison. What is today's episode about. Well,

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Speaker 1: we we wanted to talk to We wanted to talk

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Speaker 1: to Kava about both what the current plague situation is

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Speaker 1: because a lot of people seem to think it's over,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people seem to think it's not over. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then also, how is COVID and all the stuff

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Speaker 1: is still affecting our hospital and medical system? Um? Is

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Speaker 1: there supply shortages for medical supplies? What's going on in

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Speaker 1: different areas? Yeah, because all of that, all that kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff got you. Yes, is the answer? Yes, the answer,

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Speaker 1: that's the answer. Yeah, it's a it's still a problem.

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Speaker 1: I don't think. Uh, don't listen to anyone who tells

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Speaker 1: you that it's not um. Don't listen to anyone who

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Speaker 1: gives you too Sonny of forecast on it. But it

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Speaker 1: you know, it's different in different places, is the along

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Speaker 1: the short of it. In places where the vaccinations are

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Speaker 1: higher and where there's mandates and there's reasonable laws about things,

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Speaker 1: the rates are going down California, but also like Rhode Island, Maine, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Vermont.

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Speaker 1: These are places with high vaccination rates. The rates of

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Speaker 1: cases are going down in those places. Places like Mississippi,

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Speaker 1: West Virginia, Idaho, Alabama, these are places where like it's

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Speaker 1: vaccination rates and the cases are going way up. You

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Speaker 1: guys might have heard of a couple of things happening,

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Speaker 1: Like there was that forty six year old guy named

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Speaker 1: Daniel Wilkinson. He's like a vet who developed something called

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Speaker 1: gallstone pancreatitis, which I could talk to you guys about

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Speaker 1: for hours. I won't, don't worry, but I could. I'm

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Speaker 1: just like you know, I could. I mean declared it's

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Speaker 1: not a total DNR, but like anyone who has um

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Speaker 1: cardiac arrest is on a DNR now in Idaho because

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Speaker 1: they just don't have the resources to be well, that's

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Speaker 1: not entire I mean what Okay, So that's not your fault.

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Speaker 1: You got wrong, because there were there were doctors that

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Speaker 1: were sort of spreading that story about now they are

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Speaker 1: and what's called the crisis standard of care. But and

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Speaker 1: in part of that means that hospitals could go to

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Speaker 1: putting everyone on DNR, which means do not resuscitate, which

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Speaker 1: means if you have a cardiac arrest, they won't do

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Speaker 1: anything about it. That's that's not what's actually happening. It

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Speaker 1: could happen when they institute this crisis standard of care.

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Speaker 1: What it means is that if a hospital gets so

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Speaker 1: short on their ventilators and they just don't have any

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Speaker 1: more room, then they could implement that. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: don't know I even heard of anyone. I was I

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Speaker 1: was asking around uh to see if any doctors in

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Speaker 1: Idahoo could tell me of a hospital that's actually doing it.

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen or heard of one that's actually doing

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Speaker 1: it yet, but they could. The point is, it's it's

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Speaker 1: that bad, but that's a reasonable discussion where doctors have

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Speaker 1: to discuss kind of like they were back in the

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Speaker 1: day in New York, where they have to be like, okay,

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Speaker 1: does this person do we put the you know, the

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Speaker 1: young lady on the mental lator or the old guy?

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Speaker 1: You know? Then we have to decide and they make

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Speaker 1: those decisions. It's really awful. It's a position no doctor

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Speaker 1: wants to be in. And now that's becoming a reality.

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Speaker 1: It's brutal. It's brutal out there, and and that's bleeding

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Speaker 1: into other states nearby. You know, So that situation because

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Speaker 1: his doctor like couldn't find a and I see you

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Speaker 1: bed for him. Is that? That? Is that the story

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Speaker 1: you're talking about. That's the story. So he's this guy

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Speaker 1: who had a problem that can be fixed. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's a procedure called an e r CP that he

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Speaker 1: can get done at specialty centers. And he didn't live

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Speaker 1: far from Houston. Houston has plenty of the specialty centers

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Speaker 1: that can do it. They have great gas from urologists

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Speaker 1: like myself, not as good, but you know, the same

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Speaker 1: sort of thing. And they could do it if they

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Speaker 1: if they you know, if they had the availability to

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Speaker 1: get him in. But they didn't, and so he died.

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Speaker 1: Is something that he shouldn't love. It's basically the example.

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure there's more examples of that. And what

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Speaker 1: really worries me is the examples that you're not hearing yet,

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Speaker 1: like cases they're delayed now, cancer screening, things that are

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Speaker 1: being delayed now in these hospitals that we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: paying down the road. That's that's the ship that really

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Speaker 1: scares me. Just people not going in for things in general. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: I have friends other than you who work and e

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Speaker 1: R s and stuff, um nurses and the doctor, um

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Speaker 1: and bull it's up in the p m W. But

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Speaker 1: the ship they're saying it is like into days crap,

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Speaker 1: like like I they are working on like building capacity

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Speaker 1: and making sure they have things to like treat their

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Speaker 1: friends because it's they're like the advices, do not go

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Speaker 1: to the hospital like if if, if at all possible,

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Speaker 1: because there's just not capacity for you unless it's like

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Speaker 1: literally an immediate life and death thing. It's it's almost

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Speaker 1: uh not worth like trying because there's just nothing. There's

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Speaker 1: no slack the system is and it's it's it's starting

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Speaker 1: to turn. It looks like here in in in the

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Speaker 1: Portland area, but like it's it's frightening, like these are

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Speaker 1: not people who would be bullshitting or or are are

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Speaker 1: are prone to panic. You know, they're e er professionals,

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Speaker 1: but um, it's it's it's fucked up, like it's it's it.

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Speaker 1: It's this thing where like the scary thing to me

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Speaker 1: is not even necessarily where we are right now, because

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Speaker 1: it does like there is some kind of broadly positive

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Speaker 1: news in a lot of areas about like where the

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Speaker 1: pandemic is going It's just like this situation won't be

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Speaker 1: fixed when case numbers go down. It's it's it's going

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Speaker 1: to be permanent damage has been done to this system.

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Speaker 1: And I guess what I'm wondering first off, like from

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Speaker 1: what you're seeing, like, what what is the extent of

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Speaker 1: the permanent damage done to our our emergency medical system

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Speaker 1: in particular and our our ability to even like get

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Speaker 1: care at the moment. Yeah, that's a really good question.

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't know. It kind of goes back

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Speaker 1: to I think what Garrison want to talk about, which

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Speaker 1: is like the collapse of the medical system. I think

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Speaker 1: we talk about it a lot in terms of we're

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Speaker 1: on the edge of collapse, we're near collapse. I think

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Speaker 1: there are places in this country where it already has collapsed.

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Speaker 1: I think that's pretty evident. It's really it's not homogeneous

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Speaker 1: in any way across this country. There are certainly places

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Speaker 1: that are better than others, and there's certainly places that

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Speaker 1: have a lot more uh leeway and flexibility, but everywhere

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Speaker 1: is strained right now. And in regards to your question

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Speaker 1: about permanent damage, I'll answer that in regards to just

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Speaker 1: the personnel you know, because um, because of the show

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Speaker 1: that I have, the House of Pod follow us on

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Speaker 1: Twitter at the House of Pod, and I talked to

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Speaker 1: a lot of doctors and nurses from all over the country,

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Speaker 1: talk to them a lot, and it's bad. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the stress that they're under, the pts D that they're

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Speaker 1: that they're dealing with, the burnout. The level of burnout

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Speaker 1: is just intense. It's intense and and it's I think

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Speaker 1: we were talking about moral injury and burnout before all

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Speaker 1: this started, and now it is to a point where

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Speaker 1: I don't know what's going to happen to the medical system,

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Speaker 1: just in terms of the personnel when this is all over.

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Speaker 1: I know a lot of people who are getting out

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Speaker 1: of medicine, getting out clinical medicine. I mean out of

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Speaker 1: like would I would say, out of just my immediate

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Speaker 1: friend group. I can think of a couple off hand,

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Speaker 1: excellent doctors, really great I c u e R doctors

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Speaker 1: who are already planning their exit. And when I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I mean in the next coming years, that's gonna be

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Speaker 1: a major issue, and I don't know how we're going

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Speaker 1: to address that and our nurses in the I c u.

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Speaker 1: S Man the stuff they have to put up with

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Speaker 1: is and is insane. You just see it in their

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Speaker 1: eyes eyes are broken. Like I was. I volunteered on

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Speaker 1: the wards a couple of weeks ago, and people, they're

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Speaker 1: the doctors and nurses taking care of these COVID patients

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Speaker 1: day in day out, like they there's like a little

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Speaker 1: bit of their soul that's been broken. And just see

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Speaker 1: it in their eyes, like I was there for like

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Speaker 1: just a week, and it's terrifying. You know, you're going

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Speaker 1: into a room with a patient with COVID. It's scary,

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Speaker 1: you know, even no matter how much ppe protective equipment

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Speaker 1: you have on, like you're always a little scared. And

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Speaker 1: I just think years of that that weighs on a

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Speaker 1: person in a way I don't I mean, I am

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Speaker 1: worried about. I don't know how we going to address that.

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Speaker 1: M Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, And it's frustrating because like

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Speaker 1: from the perspective of people listening, right, the thing you

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Speaker 1: want to ask is like, well, how can I help?

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Speaker 1: And it's like, well you can't because you're already If

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Speaker 1: you're listening to the show, I assume you're masking. I

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Speaker 1: assume you've gotten vaccinated if you don't have like a

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Speaker 1: condition that that renders you unable to get the vaccine,

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Speaker 1: you're you're I I think our listeners tend to be

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Speaker 1: pretty responsible people. It's just not enough because of the

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Speaker 1: country decided to like Leroy Jenkins, a plague and ud Garrison.

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Speaker 1: Do you know that reference? Is that? Geerence? I'm familiar

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Speaker 1: with Leroy Jenkins. That's good. Were you born when Leroy

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Speaker 1: Jenkins became a thing, I don't know. You would have

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Speaker 1: been like three, would have been Yeah, yeah, it was.

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Speaker 1: It was Deadpool that brought him to your attention, isn't it. No, No,

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Speaker 1: I it came to my attention just doing general internet nothing. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It was one of the first. It was the first

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Speaker 1: meme that you could show your parents pretty much. I

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Speaker 1: guess they were like Badger Badger, mushroom, a couple of

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Speaker 1: others in that category, but like, it was one of

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Speaker 1: the first memes that wasn't a man's gaping asshole prolapsed.

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Speaker 1: But I showed my parents that all the time. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, there was a beautiful moment back in

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Speaker 1: the day with somebody got seat to stadium. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: what brought you into medicine. This is what I saw work.

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Speaker 1: They were so proud of me, like, look at look

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Speaker 1: at our son, look at our boy, look at our boy.

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Speaker 1: He can tell us exactly why that man's asshole looks

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Speaker 1: that way. I have a weird job, I guess. One

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Speaker 1: of my questions is, with the assumption that people are

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Speaker 1: taking the actual plague related steps they can to reduce

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Speaker 1: their burden to the medical system, what can people realistically do.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think part of that is and this

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Speaker 1: is and I'm not going to have you to like

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Speaker 1: explain how you can take care of your own medical

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Speaker 1: treatments in an emergency on a podcast. That's not the

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Speaker 1: time or the place, although I do think it's probably

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Speaker 1: a good idea for people to read up on first

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Speaker 1: aid and basic life saving emergency like it's always a

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Speaker 1: good idea to have some training there. But yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: do you have other advice? You know, you're exactly right.

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Speaker 1: The people that are listening to this podcast are totally

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Speaker 1: on board already, and they're super supportive, and we appreciate that.

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Speaker 1: I mean that is not unnoticed. I mean, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's having people like uh outside the hospitals every now

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Speaker 1: and then applauding doctors. I know it's cheesy, but it's great.

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Speaker 1: I'll take that over the blue angels flying overhead any day,

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Speaker 1: you know. So it's that's that stuff is really important,

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Speaker 1: and masking and taking care of themselves is is great,

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Speaker 1: you know. Um. The the real practical things that people

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Speaker 1: can do, I think is help contribute to sites that

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Speaker 1: will help get the rest of the world vaccinate. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we can definitely talk about that the question of boosters

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Speaker 1: here versus you know, vaccines for the first time elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: But there that's the one thing I would recommend right

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Speaker 1: now if you want to help, um, let's put our

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Speaker 1: money into places where we can get vaccines to other places.

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Speaker 1: And I think that every little bit of that helps

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Speaker 1: in the long run. And that's the sort of thing

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Speaker 1: that we could use. Other than that, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: just hope that people are still going into medicine and

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Speaker 1: in nursing, you know. That's the only thing I can

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Speaker 1: still hope is that people who haven't interest in it,

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Speaker 1: you know, continue to do it. And and for those

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Speaker 1: people who are just their training, those years of their

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Speaker 1: formative years are during this time. I just want to

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Speaker 1: let them know. I swear it gets better. It's not

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Speaker 1: always gonna be like this. And if you make it

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Speaker 1: through this, you're gonna be an amazing clinician. You're gonna

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Speaker 1: be an amazing nurse, You're gonna be an amazing doctor.

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Speaker 1: And I really want you guys to keep doing it.

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Speaker 1: That's that's one thing I would say to Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: and I I'll certainly add that if you're someone who's

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Speaker 1: contemplating a medical career, please please, I mean, just from

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Speaker 1: a there's a couple of things on that, like, just

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Speaker 1: from a perspective of what the world needs. It's what

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Speaker 1: the world needs. But also, if you're listening to this

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Speaker 1: stuff we're saying about the crumbles, about the possibility of

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Speaker 1: the collapse, if you're someone who who foresees things getting

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Speaker 1: potentially much more difficult in the future, not a lot

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Speaker 1: of things more useful in a bad situation than somebody

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Speaker 1: with medical training. I don't count on that getting me

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Speaker 1: through the apocalypse. I'm I'm soft. I am so so.

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Speaker 1: I went camping and I couldn't handle it. A couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks ago, I went camping. It was awful. There

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Speaker 1: was so much dust. It was an awful experience. But

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Speaker 1: I just thought, if the apocalypse comes, I will hopefully

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Speaker 1: get placed in a very nice tent because I'm a doctor,

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Speaker 1: so I'm counting on that to get me through. There

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Speaker 1: are there are so many dumbass boogaloo type quote unquote

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Speaker 1: preppers who focus on the guns and the gear or

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Speaker 1: in the dried food, but the throwing knives in the

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Speaker 1: shirt throwing knives, but don't even have an IFFAC an

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Speaker 1: individual first aid kit or like a tourniquet, And like

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Speaker 1: the talk to you talk to like like I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is a little off topic, but like talk to

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Speaker 1: combat marines about like their favorite person. It's always the corman.

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Speaker 1: It's the guy who knows or the lady who knows

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Speaker 1: how to like patch a bullet wound and whatnot. Like

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Speaker 1: there's there's nothing more useful in any situation pretty much

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Speaker 1: that that is dangerous than somebody who can do medicine.

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Speaker 1: So please, if you're if you're studying to do medicine,

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Speaker 1: if you're contemplating becoming an e MT or a paramedic

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Speaker 1: or a nurse or whatever, good God, we need you

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Speaker 1: so badly. Yeah, we've talked to a little bit about

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Speaker 1: just in the medical system in general, and then we

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Speaker 1: can also kind of discuss more stuff related to how

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Speaker 1: COVID's impacting certain areas more than others. And like, let's

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Speaker 1: say someone who's someone who's listening, who's in one of

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Speaker 1: these areas that it has only vaccinated, you know, not

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Speaker 1: not a lot of people are going on with masks on,

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Speaker 1: and you know, school starting back up, maybe they have

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Speaker 1: kids are going to their school system. I know in

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Speaker 1: Texas they have you know, child deaths are rising. That

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Speaker 1: sounds very frightening to be that kind of person who,

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Speaker 1: like you know, would like like to see that stuff

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Speaker 1: happened in their state, but it's just not really possible.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know, with so much of the rest

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Speaker 1: of the world kind of slowly taking back restrictions, and

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it feels very jarring to be in a

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Speaker 1: situation like that and kind of like there's really nothing

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Speaker 1: you can do right besides you right, because you can

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Speaker 1: talk to your family, talk to your friends, but like overall,

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Speaker 1: it's hard to hard to make you know, a big

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Speaker 1: impact in a state, you know, like Texas, Alabama, like Idaho,

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Speaker 1: all the ones that you that you were mentioning before

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Speaker 1: from a medical kind of perspective, is there is there

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Speaker 1: any way people can kind of start to talk about

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Speaker 1: those things with their family and because the way we've

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Speaker 1: been trying to get people take the vaccine with their

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Speaker 1: marketing we've been doing has not been super successful in

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Speaker 1: these demographics. Um, do you think there's other conversations that

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Speaker 1: can get people to slowly kind of be more, be

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Speaker 1: more able to you know, contemplate that. Yeah, that's a

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Speaker 1: that's a tough question. It's particularly tough if you're someone

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Speaker 1: who is believes in the importance of vaccines and you're

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Speaker 1: or the importance of masks and that sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: and you're in a place where you're a minority. That

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Speaker 1: is tough. The first thing I'll say is definitely know

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Speaker 1: that the vaccine helps. You're in a much better position

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Speaker 1: because of the vaccine. When I was on the wards

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Speaker 1: and I was looking at patients that they're almost all unvaccinated,

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Speaker 1: those are the people that end up in the hospital.

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Speaker 1: You can't still get into the hospitalized if you have

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Speaker 1: the vaccine, but it's it's much less likely. And you know,

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Speaker 1: not that these people don't count, they count just as much.

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Speaker 1: But if you don't have an underlying problem like a

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Speaker 1: liver transplant or some immune suppression. Then you're less likely

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Speaker 1: to have a really bad outcome with COVID if you're vaccinated,

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Speaker 1: So just know that it helps. You still might get it.

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Speaker 1: It'll suck, um, but but the most part, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: stay out of the hospital. And that really, I think

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Speaker 1: is something have a little comfort in. It really does

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Speaker 1: seem to work. You know. Outside of that, the schools

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Speaker 1: thing is a real concern for me, and I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: feel a lot better than We're going to be in

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Speaker 1: a much better position once we are able to get

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Speaker 1: kids vaccinated. So there's there's two things. You guys probably

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Speaker 1: heard that there was, um this this committee that met

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Speaker 1: to advise the FDA about booster shots. That's one thing.

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Speaker 1: So booster shots are gonna go out to people who

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Speaker 1: need them, uh sixty five and older people at high risk,

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Speaker 1: people in high risk occupations. They're gonna like frontline workers.

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Speaker 1: So there's gonna be booster shots coming out. And then

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Speaker 1: the data coming out now about five yeah, yeah, and

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Speaker 1: that's pretty promising. Um, it looks like they're gonna do

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Speaker 1: okay with lower doses. So they use about one third

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Speaker 1: the dose of the vaccine. That the adults get and

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Speaker 1: it seems to work. We haven't seen much other than

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Speaker 1: the pre press release from UH Fighter, but you know,

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Speaker 1: if you really pick at it, it looks promising. So

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Speaker 1: I am that's something that makes me hopeful. That's something

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Speaker 1: I'm definitely clinging to. I think there's no way we're

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Speaker 1: getting out of this without vaccinating kids. That just has

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Speaker 1: to happen. Um. I think once that starts rolling out,

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Speaker 1: and hopefully it will soon. I mean I don't want

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Speaker 1: to put a date on it, but I'm hoping within

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Speaker 1: the next couple of months this starts happening. So you know, once,

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Speaker 1: once that starts happening, I'm gonna feel a lot more comfortable.

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Speaker 1: I think people in those situations are gonna feel a

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Speaker 1: lot more comfortable too. Yeah. Yeah. The booster thing is

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Speaker 1: an interesting question to me. I mean, they're a standpoint particularly,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think I think it's not a fair

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Speaker 1: narrative to say it has to be one or the other,

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Speaker 1: and I think people are saying that. I don't think.

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Speaker 1: I think we can do it. I think we can

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Speaker 1: produce enough vaccine here for people who haven't got it yet,

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Speaker 1: and enough for the boosters and start supplying more to

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Speaker 1: the world. I mean, we can do more our government

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Speaker 1: sharing fiser Maderna definitely need to do more in that regards.

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Speaker 1: They definitely need to do more in terms of production.

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Speaker 1: They haven't hit their goals in a lot of these places.

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Speaker 1: And but it's also not like they haven't done anything yet.

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Speaker 1: They give about like a you know, two hundred million

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Speaker 1: doses are being donated just this week. I think, so

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Speaker 1: they are doing things. That's happening. It's just we need

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Speaker 1: more of it. Everything needs we need more of it.

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Speaker 1: We need to ramp up production. Yeah, it's weird because,

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Speaker 1: like you're right, we could produce enough vaccines for the

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Speaker 1: places that don't have them and enough vaccines for boosters

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Speaker 1: over here, and all of that would take is a

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Speaker 1: couple of months of our Afghani stand mad money. But

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Speaker 1: we're not going to do that, and so it probably

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Speaker 1: we will, like I don't know, contribute to an issue

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Speaker 1: effect There's there's a chance that it will contribute to

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Speaker 1: an issue of vaccine unavailability. But also it's not like

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Speaker 1: if we don't get the boosters, those vaccines will be

424
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:16,480
Speaker 1: available because we're just not giving them out. Yeah, in

425
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 1: the extent that we need, so I yeah, I don't know,

426
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying. I'll get the booster if

427
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 1: they decide to give out boosters because I like not

428
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 1: having not the plague damage getting or getting long COVID. Yeah. Yeah,

429
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: that that seems great. And a lot of the vaccine

430
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 1: has been ce kind of relies. It tracks back to

431
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 1: how we've been marketing in it, and I'm I've I've

432
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,160
Speaker 1: been on the team that's like we should stop using

433
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 1: Fauchi because every time Fauci goes on TV to talk

434
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,879
Speaker 1: about vaccines, more people are going to do like a

435
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:48,680
Speaker 1: backfire infactor be like, no, I'm not going to get EXA.

436
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 1: Don't trust Fauchi. So there's a particular like marketing thing

437
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,160
Speaker 1: that I think we've failed on. Like America is very

438
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: good at marketing when we can make money, but when

439
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 1: it's not related to getting gaining more profit, I think

440
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 1: the government is very bad at marketing these types of things. Um.

441
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 1: And on the kind of the marketing side of things,

442
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 1: I don't know, this is this is kind of old

443
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 1: news at this point. But the whole smoll in testicals thing, um,

444
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 1: which we have you have not talked about on this

445
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 1: show about but I'm sure you have thoughts about how

446
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 1: this thing has kind of balloons, which is that can

447
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 1: be like, so, how how the marketing and misinformation relates

448
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 1: to this cold, kind current, kind of current problem. Yeah. Yeah,

449
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 1: first of all, that particular story, I mean that's hilarious.

450
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 1: I mean, like this, I've never I've never seen someone's

451
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: excuse for venereal disease becomes such an international issue. Yeah,

452
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 1: contribute to the dest probably of hundreds of people, right, Um,

453
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: you know it's it's the marketing thing is a really

454
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: great question, and and it's been driving me crazy because

455
00:24:57,840 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: like part of me at this point just wants to

456
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 1: be like the fucking vaccine, but the fund's wrong with

457
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 1: you get the fucking vaccine part of my language and like, um,

458
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 1: but then the part of me knows that that doesn't work.

459
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 1: Like I do believe doctors should be able to express

460
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 1: their frustration. Um, they need to be able to do that.

461
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: If we can't do that right now, I mean, it's

462
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: game over. But they need to at least have that

463
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: ability where doctors can voice their frustration with antivactors but

464
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 1: still give them the same high level of care that

465
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:24,959
Speaker 1: we're always going to give them the matter what when

466
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 1: they show up in the hospital. But it's not working

467
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: to do that. We need other approaches. I don't I

468
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 1: don't entirely know what they are. There are some people

469
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: they're they're so far out there that we're just never

470
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: going to reach the people, the microchip people. There's like

471
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 1: a level of deep programming that will need to happen

472
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 1: to those people that we just it's it's too exhausting

473
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: to do that. You really have to, like, if you

474
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 1: can't scale that in any meaningful way for the country,

475
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: I think I think, yeah, I don't know. I think

476
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 1: calling it the Trump vaccine was the closest we got

477
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 1: to have a possibility, and that fucking I'm interested in

478
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,479
Speaker 1: your thoughts on the fucking bright Bart article and if

479
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,919
Speaker 1: you're not aware, if you're less online than us, and

480
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 1: God bless you if you are right Bart, the which

481
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: is I don't know. CNN for Fascists came up with

482
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 1: an article blaming the Democrats for the fact that Republicans

483
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: don't want to take the vaccine and saying it's a

484
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: secret Liberal plot to exterminate conservatives because conservatives refused to

485
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 1: take vaccines because they're fundamentally oppositional defiant, um, and like

486
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: it's it's the fault of people who are telling them

487
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 1: to take the vaccine that they're not taking the vaccine

488
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,640
Speaker 1: because obviously, why would you trust the liberal on anything?

489
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 1: But also they're trying to kill us. We're going to

490
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 1: lose the election because we're all dying because we refuse

491
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: to get vaccinated for a preventable disease. Anyway, how do

492
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: you feel about that guy? I don't. I don't love it.

493
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: I don't love it. Um. I'm vaguely familiar with bright Bart.

494
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: I don't know that exact article because I have enough

495
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: pain in my life already. But um, but you know,

496
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 1: I do wonder It's like when they put out articles

497
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: like this, or Tucker Carlson goes out and he does

498
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: his thing questioning vaccine, just asking questions about vaccines that

499
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: lead to vaccine hesitancy, Like what calculations are they doing?

500
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 1: Are they doing calcular? Is this just him being callous

501
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: in not giving a funk and just doing it, or

502
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 1: is there some calculation that him and some sort of

503
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: right wing fink tank are doing where they're like, hey,

504
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:27,120
Speaker 1: look this sells to our audience. They love it. Let's

505
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: keep doing it. Yes, we are going to lose ex

506
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: portion of our audience because of this, but we still

507
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 1: have plenty of audience left. Like, I don't, I wonder

508
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: how that's happening. Like it is hurting. It is true,

509
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 1: it is hurting them more than than other people. It's

510
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: hurting everyone. Everyone's getting affected by this, um but there

511
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: it's those states that are being affected, the people not

512
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: getting vaccinated who are listening to people like Tucker Carlson.

513
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 1: So I don't, I don't understand what their endgame is here,

514
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: Like this is their market? Why why not protected? And

515
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 1: that I do not have a good answer for. I

516
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: was hoping one of you guys would. Um. You know,

517
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 1: it's there's a lot going on there. I think a

518
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: decent chunk of it is the assumption that whatever they

519
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 1: lose in terms of dead followers won't be worth more

520
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,719
Speaker 1: than continuing the cash bonanza. That is owning the lips,

521
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: right because that's all that that's all, that's the entirety

522
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 1: of the right wing media. It's just owning the lips.

523
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 1: It's just oppositional defiant, it's just hating anything democrats do.

524
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 1: So you you kind of can't. You're a cuck if

525
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: you tell people to receive basic medical care if Democrats

526
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: are taking that basic medical care right, Um, so it's

527
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: a pride thing for a lot of them. To two

528
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: things I love is when you when you use the

529
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: word cuck or when you do Ben Shapiro's voice, Like

530
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: those are like two of my favorite things that you do.

531
00:28:53,480 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 1: It's you're saying really well, far beyond anything rational on

532
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: the right. Um, and it's it's difficult to like I

533
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: I I think the calculation is just like I think

534
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: a lot of these guys is the same thing with

535
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: climate change. Like they're smart enough to know that they're

536
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: contributing to an uninhabitable world, but they want to cash

537
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: in first. They want to get as much as they

538
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 1: can out before it falls apart. And I think that's

539
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: all any of these people care about. Because I think

540
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: there are the true believers. The radio guys are true believers, right,

541
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: the radio guys who keep dying because they don't be vaccinated.

542
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: Those guys did believe that it was some sort of

543
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: weird conspiracy, it was the communist whatever. Um. Clearly because

544
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: they did management level, yeah, mid management level. They don't

545
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: know all the stuff that they're being told from above

546
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 1: and they kind of believe it enough to where they

547
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: kill themselves for the company. I think for Tucker, it's

548
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: more a matter of like, hey, I keep making money

549
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: and I maintain my power if I If I continue

550
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: to hold this line, you you lose power, you get weaker.

551
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,239
Speaker 1: It's like when Trump bood for telling people to take

552
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: the vaccine. You know, yeah, yeah, um yeah, crazy. You

553
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: can't go back with this ship. You just can't, and

554
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: you certainly can't admit to ever having been wrong. Right Yeah, man,

555
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 1: it's good ship. What a what a fun note to

556
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: end of the episode on what a good society we've built?

557
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: Oh bravo, m hm ah, well cover it. People can

558
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: find you by looking up the House of Pod. Yes,

559
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: uh was slightly less depressing, but not not super uplifting

560
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: either at this point. Uh. Follow us at the House

561
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 1: of Pot at Twitter, and you can listen to our

562
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 1: podcast pretty much anywhere are you listen to podcast. We'll

563
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 1: talk about medical type things, but not so deep into

564
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: the woods that it's not entertaining, I hope. Yeah the woods, Yeah,

565
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: the woods. We have fun guests ranging from the world's

566
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: best medical experts to you know, you guys. The best

567
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: medical experts. You guys are right up there for medicine, right.

568
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 1: There's no better medicine than just a big fat pile

569
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: of cocaine. And the good thing about cocaine is it's

570
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: a sterilizing agent. So if you're worried about COVID getting

571
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: in your nasal passages, just rail cocaine before you and

572
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: after you go into the store. It's like getting a

573
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: COVID test, but more fun. Legally, I have to tell

574
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: you that's false. Well, we all have our opinions about

575
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: how cocaine works, and I have my fact, have my facts. Now,

576
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: if you excuse me, I'm gonna go pick up a

577
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: single item at the grocery store. Welcome to It could

578
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: Happen Here pod podcast that is today about the fact

579
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: that ten years ago it did happen. And when when

580
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 1: when I When I say it did happen, I mean

581
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: we occupied an extremely large number of places, and we

582
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: did so in interesting and incredibly bizarre ways. And with

583
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 1: with with me to talk about this is Garrison as always.

584
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 1: I like that you used the Twitter handle for our podcast,

585
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: not the actual name, but that's fine. Where can it?

586
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: Where can it go? For it? But helloon with me.

587
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: I have I have my special guest, Vicky Ostrowil, who

588
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: is an agitator, who is a writer, who has done

589
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: many many things, probably most famously writing the book In

590
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: Defense of Looting um from Bold Press, bold Type Press, Bultypress. Yeah,

591
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: very good book. People got very bad, people got very angry. Yeah,

592
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: thank you. It's it's really I'm really excited to be

593
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: here to to talk about the the anniversary of Occupy

594
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: from which is basically, you know, when I and I

595
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 1: all got this whole train rolling, so yeah, and the

596
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: the other the other thing um that that it is

597
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: probably relevant here is that Vicky was one of the

598
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: first people at occupy and and a little correct me

599
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,479
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong about this. I found an oblique reference

600
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 1: to this in one of the things I read. You

601
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: facilitated the first meeting. Yes, the yeah, yeah, I guess

602
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,479
Speaker 1: it's on the record now, yeah, I uh yeah, during um,

603
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: during the general New York City General Assembly it was

604
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: called in August UM, there was you know, uh ad

605
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 1: Busters hopefully called for a general assembly, and you know,

606
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: a bunch of us sort of went down there and

607
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: there was a tanky party there um doing a general assembly,

608
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: which was just them on speakers, um doing their regular ranting.

609
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: Um hadn't changed much in ten years, um and uh

610
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: and we um. Yeah, so a bunch of us just

611
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: went and sat down, uh you know, to the side

612
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: of it, and started an actual general assembly. And by

613
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: by by happenstance, I I associated that meeting and it

614
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: was the first and last Occupy Mediamate pasilitation. Yeah. Okay,

615
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 1: so I want to rule back a little bit too,

616
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 1: just before the start of occupied because Yeah, the more

617
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 1: thinking about this, the more have just realized that two

618
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 1: thousand eleven was just a profoundly weird time in a

619
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 1: lot of ways. I think people have forgotten, like the

620
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: entire American security state is at this point being terrorized

621
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 1: by you joint anonymous lull sick hacking campaign called anti Sick,

622
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: the symbol of which he is a guy in a

623
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 1: guy fox mask wearing a monocle and a top hat.

624
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: And this was just like normal, Yes, this was the

625
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 1: thing that I was like, Oh, yeah, yeah, it's it's

626
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: the it's it's the it's the anti sex top hat,

627
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 1: full faced guy in a monocle. Fun fact about that,

628
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 1: just before we forget David Gramer rest in Peace who

629
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 1: was there in the early days organizing claimed and um

630
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: that he had he had heard and talked to the

631
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: some of the like overheard the police talking about the

632
00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,879
Speaker 1: reason they didn't sweep the occupying encampment the first day

633
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: when we were pretty weak, frankly, or the first week,

634
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 1: was because there were a bunch of guy fox masks

635
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: and they were scared. They were scared they were going

636
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 1: to get hacked. If they were scared, they were going

637
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: to hack them and steal there. So it was a

638
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 1: weird time indeed. Yeah, Yeah, And I think that the

639
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: the other thing that's you know, I think important about

640
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: this time period if we're looking back at what occupied was,

641
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: is that so this is this is three years after

642
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 1: the the financial collapse, and you know, so I think

643
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,359
Speaker 1: this is you know, in the room to two eleven,

644
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 1: there's been a few there's been a few protests. There's

645
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: been there was a big thing increased two eight that

646
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 1: was kind of related, kind of unrelated. But I think

647
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 1: in my sense of you know, I was like, I

648
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 1: don't know, I was like thirteen. I was like I

649
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: was like an actual baby child. But my senseitive was

650
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 1: kind of just like like there's that there's this like

651
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,800
Speaker 1: sense that everyone just kind of waiting for something to happen. Yeah,

652
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: and it's just like hadn't and it just like kept

653
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 1: going and kept going and kept going. And then you know,

654
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: and then and then Genesia starts and suddenly there's you know,

655
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: they're there. There's Protestant Tunisia, there's pert Egypt. There's like

656
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 1: people fighting tanks in the street in Bahrain, and you know,

657
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:10,879
Speaker 1: and this this is you know, this this becomes down

658
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: at the up spring and it starts to spread to

659
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 1: a lot of places. And Vicky, I want to talk

660
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 1: I want to ask you about this because you you

661
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: were in Spain when it starts started there. I want

662
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: to talk about what what what was going on there?

663
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: And yeah, so I wasn't there when it started. Um,

664
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: but but but yes, um basically you know, and then

665
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: and I want to shout out like there were there

666
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: were a bunch of like movements, like in two thousand eight,

667
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: right after the crash, there were a bunch of protests,

668
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: like outside Wall Street. They were very small, but they

669
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: were like sort of the like produced some images. And

670
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: then there was you know, in two thousand uh nine,

671
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 1: there's the Oscar Grant rebellion in Oakland, and you have

672
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 1: the Madison occupation earlier in two thousand eleven, UM, where

673
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:55,399
Speaker 1: they where the workers unions took over the state House. Yeah,

674
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,479
Speaker 1: everyone does. It was actually really important at the time. Um.

675
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: But yeah, so so you know, so I think I'm

676
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: glad you brought up Greece because I think actually Greece

677
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 1: really that that sort of anarchist rebellion thousand nine really

678
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 1: kicked off the cycle in a certain way, but also

679
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: didn't quite It wasn't quite the first domino, you know,

680
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: it was sort of more of a like forecast. So yeah,

681
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,760
Speaker 1: so Arab spring, uh, you know, is huge. It's this huge,

682
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,320
Speaker 1: huge event, and the US media is loving it because

683
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,320
Speaker 1: obviously like these sort of old you know, quote unquote

684
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: Marxist dictators are falling, um, and so of course the

685
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,439
Speaker 1: US is like all about it, um, which of course

686
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 1: later later on the return of the tankies will use

687
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: to um to confuse everyone on the US left and

688
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 1: destroy all solidarity with Syria anyway. Um, But that's neither

689
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: herener there. Um. So then then in then in that summer, um,

690
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 1: you get this this wave of early summer like May

691
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:49,839
Speaker 1: in June, In fact, the fifteenth of May was when

692
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 1: the movement started in Spain and then it starts student

693
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: again in Greece. And it was similar to occupy and

694
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,399
Speaker 1: that there was these people coming together in these sort

695
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: of encampments in the center of the city. Uh. Um.

696
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if people remember um or or know

697
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: this history economically, but Spain and Greece had recently been

698
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,720
Speaker 1: sort of going through these like big big booms, economic

699
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: booms just for about five or six years that turned

700
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,439
Speaker 1: out to be real estate bubbles funded by their entry

701
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: into the EU, and two thousand ages smashed that and

702
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 1: they were just like incredibly impoverished. I mean like Spain

703
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 1: was facing something like fifty youth unemployment. Greece was like similar.

704
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,320
Speaker 1: Spain has recovered more than Greece has in the intervening years,

705
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: but it's still bad. Um So so yeah, so you

706
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 1: had all these it was it was you know, predominantly

707
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: young folks who were um you know, had been pushed

708
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: out of the economy, who had been pushed out of

709
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 1: their homes, whose families had loft their homes, um gathering

710
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 1: together and it was all over both countries and it

711
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: was huge. Um. I happened to just be in Barcelona.

712
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 1: I had been on a planned vacation with some friends. Um,

713
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 1: you know that we had we had planned like sort

714
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: of six months earlier when it while popped off, and

715
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 1: I had also just started my writing Um, I would

716
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,760
Speaker 1: say career, but that's very generous. Um. I had started

717
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: technically being paid for writing things. And they were like, oh,

718
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 1: right about it, Like, let's like cover it while you're there.

719
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: And because no one in the US was talking about

720
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 1: what was going on in Spain when my article popped up,

721
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 1: like and this is like, this is really strange. But

722
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:13,399
Speaker 1: it was like the early days of Twitter as well,

723
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 1: um two eleven, Like I guess Twitter started two nine

724
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 1: or something, and so like so the the one of

725
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: the accounts from the camp tweets out my article. So

726
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: I went there the next day. I was like I

727
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 1: wrote that article and then I was like embedded for

728
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: a week. And I was there for like kind of

729
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: the height of the popular power of the movement in Barcelona.

730
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 1: Only for a week, but I was there on the

731
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 1: day when there was a two and a half million

732
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: person march through Barcelona just like still probably the biggest

733
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 1: march I've ever been part of it and probably who

734
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: ever will be UM was like lat and so you know,

735
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: so that goes on for for a few months in

736
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 1: Greece and Barcelona, it sort of hits similar limits that

737
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 1: occupy would eventually hit, which is that like you know

738
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 1: that that if you can take the space away from people,

739
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: that's that's the common ground, and like you can't really

740
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: have the movement without the encampment. And also all the

741
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 1: way in which the camps sort of force a kind

742
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: of internal naval gazing and people like get really obsessed

743
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: with maintaining the camp rather than the struggle with the

744
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 1: city at large. All of those, all of those contradictions

745
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 1: sort of like came up in Spain and Greece as well.

746
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 1: But at the time, you know, I was there for

747
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 1: the height of it. I come back to New York,

748
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:17,959
Speaker 1: I'm like, this is going to happen in the US,

749
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 1: like it has to. UM. I think a lot of

750
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 1: folks who had been watching felt that way as well. UM.

751
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,399
Speaker 1: I actually took part in this thing called bloomberg Ville,

752
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: which was like, yeah, fifty people on a sidewalk. Um

753
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 1: was quite from Michael Bloomberg, right, Um, fifty people on

754
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 1: a sidewalk fifty people was general. I was like, when

755
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: we were doing really well and mostly fifteen of us,

756
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: It's like fifteen of us on a flidewalk um in

757
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,800
Speaker 1: the financial district, like getting yelled at by cops, um,

758
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: you know, sleeping on cardboard, you know, occupy style, but

759
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 1: without any attention or solidarity. Um. And but because I

760
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 1: had been in Barcelona and I still have these carbrads

761
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: in Barcelona, I was like, oh my god, we're doing

762
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:55,919
Speaker 1: it in New York. So we had this thing where

763
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: bloomberg Ville, which is like twenty people like got to

764
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 1: talk to a general assembly in Barcelona at the height

765
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 1: of its power, like on a like internet link, like

766
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 1: a really early internet link, you know. Um, and you

767
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: know so so so, so there was all this energy

768
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 1: that was happening. And then I think, really crucially, the

769
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: London riots pop off, and that doesn't get talked about

770
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 1: very much and anymore partially because of the UK left

771
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 1: really stabbed here's the bath during that and and and

772
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:24,720
Speaker 1: have and and repressed the memory of it largely, um,

773
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 1: and have suffered ever since, in my opinion, strategically. UM.

774
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 1: But you know that was for us in the US,

775
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: that was huge. It was huge watching um, watching those

776
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,320
Speaker 1: riots unfold. Like you know, again, this was like early

777
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 1: live streaming, so like we were like watching live feeds

778
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: of the riots, you know, which is like it was

779
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: not a thing that you could really do without a

780
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 1: TV before. There was just like there was a lot

781
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: of stuff going on that felt exciting and and it

782
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 1: was and really important and inevitable that it would come

783
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 1: to the US because things were so messed up over here.

784
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 1: I think we should talk about what a general assembly

785
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 1: actually is because I think a lot of people aren't

786
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: you We're going to have like never actually ran into

787
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: what exactly is going on, or have sort of forgotten

788
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: in the last ten years after they sort of fallen

789
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 1: out of favor. Sure, yeah, I mean it's UM. It

790
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: was never my favorite either, honestly, but it's a it's

791
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: a meeting style UM designed UM. It actually does largely

792
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 1: actually come from from European anarchist traditions, UM from from

793
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: Spain and Greece. But as as many of us know, UM,

794
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 1: a lot of those traditions go back further UM and

795
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 1: have crossed crossed the water general Somebody's actually there's a

796
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,720
Speaker 1: long history of them in indigenous communities in Turtle Island,

797
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 1: for example. So it's an old meeting style UM in

798
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 1: which UM, the Quakers also the Quakers UM famously also

799
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 1: sort of uh sort of co opted it from from

800
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 1: indigenous folks out here on the East coast. UM. But

801
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 1: UM it's a meeting style in which, uh, you know,

802
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: with the exception of a facilitator which is occasionally but

803
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 1: not always present, UM, everyone is able to speak UM together.

804
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: There is something, there's an agenda sometimes, but it's basically

805
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 1: a meeting designed where everyone present in the meeting has

806
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 1: like an equal voice and it's not really designed generally

807
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 1: for UM decision making specifically or with like really specific

808
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 1: goals in mind. Often although there will be sort of

809
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 1: like things that are trying to get settled UM. But

810
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's designed to allow, you know, a

811
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: very very multi vocal approach and for everyone to sort

812
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: of put in their their thoughts and their ideas UM.

813
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 1: And often is connected, although not necessarily, but is often

814
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 1: connected to consensus UM operation where UM things can't get

815
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: sort of decided on unless everyone sort of agrees UM.

816
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 1: And in occupy UM that was the general assembly was

817
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 1: sort of UM was a bit controversial because it was

818
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 1: just whoever showed up obviously participates in it. So, you know,

819
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 1: unlike unlike you know, an organizational meeting where you you know,

820
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 1: everyone knows each other and you have to have a

821
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,720
Speaker 1: you know, you have to be there with an invite

822
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 1: or whatever. Um, you know, whatever cranky wing nut UM

823
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 1: wanted to show up could um And that had pluses

824
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: and minuses. It was charming sometimes, but it was also

825
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 1: very frustrating. UM. And in in New York where I

826
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 1: was UM, it was made almost impossible to function by

827
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 1: this thing called the people's mike um oh, which I

828
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 1: think still happens sometimes people even Mike check um and

829
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 1: and then everyone repeats what was said. But that means

830
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 1: that it takes four times as long to talk as normal.

831
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 1: So when you have a wing nut, you know, like

832
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: advocating for wrong Paul, and then you've got thirty people

833
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 1: echoing him every four words, it makes it makes discussion

834
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 1: completely impossible. And a microhistory of the People's mic. The

835
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,800
Speaker 1: reason that happened was because in the first week in

836
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 1: Zukkati park Um, whenever we got on a megaphone, police

837
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 1: would come and a rest whoever was on the megaphone

838
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 1: because you weren't allowed to use amplified sound in New York.

839
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: And one organizer was like, oh no, no, we can

840
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 1: like use the people's mic. We can repeat back to

841
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 1: each old And this is when we they're still mostly

842
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: like thirty to forty people in the park at any

843
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 1: one time. It's very small. That didn't feel so bad,

844
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: but then when the movement really up big, the people's

845
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 1: mike became completely unwieldy and also was a response to

846
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 1: a was a cowardly response to police repression frankly um,

847
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 1: and was a way of So the people's mic is is,

848
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 1: in my opinion, reactionary form anyway, that is hit. So

849
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 1: it's been ten years. I haven't been able to complain

850
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:19,799
Speaker 1: about this in like eight years, Thank you so much,

851
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 1: UM anyway, So yeah, the general Assembly is just a

852
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: meeting form um that often often associated with anarchy, anarchist

853
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: practice or radical democratic practice um in which sort of

854
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: consensus is aimed for by allowing everyone to speak there

855
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 1: much I would say, yeah, So this, this I think

856
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: gets us back to where we open this episode, which

857
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:42,720
Speaker 1: is add Busters calls an event with literally no plans

858
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 1: to like do anything. They're just like, yeah, everyone, we're

859
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 1: occupied in Wall Street. And then yeah, and you know,

860
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 1: as it's talking about the beginning of it, you guys

861
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: basically hijack well sort of, I mean, so Adbusters. Adbusters

862
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 1: doesn't show up, like you said, there's I've never met

863
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 1: an Adbusters person, um, And it was funny, like we

864
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 1: would do jokes about it. But I think it's also

865
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 1: thinking about this in preparation for this interview. It's also

866
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 1: interesting because Adbusters in their culture jamming is kind of

867
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: like one of the results of the sort of altar

868
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,280
Speaker 1: globalization movement of the like late nineties and early two thousands,

869
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:20,840
Speaker 1: the summit hopping stuff, um, the energy movement of like

870
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,880
Speaker 1: one generation ahead of occupy UM. So I think it's

871
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 1: sort of appropriate that Adbusters sort of like you know,

872
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 1: was present in this legacy in a certain way, and

873
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 1: a lot of those organizers were as well. But yes,

874
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I did I just jump in for you. No, no, no,

875
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 1: it's okay. UM. The yeah, so so so so a

876
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 1: bunch of people I don't actually know who calls for

877
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 1: an August second, you know, general assembly to talk about

878
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 1: the call for September seventeenth to occupy Wall Street UM

879
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 1: and at that at that point, that's when the thing

880
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 1: I was describing earlier like happens where where UM, you know,

881
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 1: we a bunch of folks and and I really want

882
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 1: to underline this, most of them were people who had

883
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 1: been in Spain or Greece. UM. David Graeber was also,

884
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: There was like a lot of old heads. There was

885
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 1: like a there was a comrade from Japan. UM. It

886
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 1: was a very international crew who had like had experience

887
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 1: in these movements. Over the summer, UM came and had

888
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 1: this general Assembly and sort of ran it that way

889
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 1: and broke out. We had we broke off working groups

890
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: and then there was meetings sort of once a week

891
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 1: and then working group needs within that UM and general

892
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:25,279
Speaker 1: assemblies from August two until September seventeenth, at which point, UM,

893
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 1: you know, occupy the date, the date that Adbusters had

894
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: called for actually happened. So my my impression of this,

895
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 1: and I was I was very small. I had very

896
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 1: limited idea of what was going on. The way I

897
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 1: remember in the media is that like the there, the

898
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 1: media was weirdly interested in it in a way that

899
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 1: I've never seen them. I've never seen them cover another

900
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: social movement that wasn't like literally burning their offices down,

901
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:53,360
Speaker 1: and it was like it was like in the beginning

902
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 1: it was I mean, you know, obviously the right wing

903
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:59,359
Speaker 1: media is losing their minds, but they were kind of

904
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 1: kind of supportive of it, and I think, I don't know,

905
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 1: I always say you think about this. One of the

906
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 1: things that that happens in both in both Greece and

907
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:12,280
Speaker 1: in Spain is that the product movement of the squares

908
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 1: is these electoral movements, and these electoral movements just fail

909
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:18,879
Speaker 1: like catastrophically, like Starsia takes power, like like the they

910
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 1: like you, they they have they have they have a

911
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 1: like their their finance minister is a left communist. He's

912
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 1: like he is the most fire left person ever like

913
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 1: to hold office since like the Spanish anarchists in ninety

914
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:33,359
Speaker 1: six and they employed austerity. Anyways, in Spain you get

915
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 1: put demos and it's like, wow, okay, you have you know,

916
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 1: they had this thing called the electoral war machine. They're

917
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 1: they're gonna take over the Spantish but because something they

918
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:40,919
Speaker 1: just it collapsed. It just doesn't work. They've they've never

919
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 1: like they've they've they've they've never taken power they've never

920
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 1: really got anywhere. They they successfully evicted a bunch of

921
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: squats in Catalonia. But yeah, but and I think this

922
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 1: is my impression of it, was that I think the

923
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 1: US media thought they could they could do this to

924
00:48:56,120 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 1: occupy and and I think they kind it. It's weird

925
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 1: because looking so you know, like I I come in

926
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 1: and like to to this kind of stuff from autun seventeen,

927
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: and I think it it's like it weirdly worked. But

928
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 1: it worked because they were able to create the anti

929
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 1: occupy people. Yeah, so it's like yeah, and so they

930
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 1: did finally get their like cadre of like pseudo left

931
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 1: organizers so they could used to build Democratic Party. It's

932
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: just it was like Jocobin and then I'll think the whole,

933
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 1: the whole sort of anti occupy group. Yeah, so those

934
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 1: folks were actually UM active during Occupy UM critiquing the

935
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 1: people who now most loudly UM claim the legacy of

936
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 1: Occupy UM. You know, as you said, Jacobin, a lot

937
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: of those sort of social democratic groups UM at the time,

938
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 1: UM and those of us who were there, remember they

939
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:44,879
Speaker 1: hated Occupy. They would show up, but they like would

940
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,359
Speaker 1: critique it constantly. They would write all these articles about

941
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 1: how it was terrible, how there were no demands, it

942
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 1: was too disorganized, And then I think, you know, when

943
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 1: Black Revolt got put on the table, they were like,

944
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 1: bring back Occupy, we like that better. But but I

945
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 1: think to be as harsh as possible, but um, I

946
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 1: think like, um, you know, yes, there was there was

947
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:06,240
Speaker 1: a lot of media coverage. It didn't feel super friendly

948
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 1: at the time. Um, there was a lot of there

949
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 1: was a lot of media coverage, Like the media was

950
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 1: very curious, it was very interested, but a lot of

951
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 1: that coverage was like why do they have no demands?

952
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 1: Like why are they so disorganized? Why are they so smelly? Whatever?

953
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 1: Like there was a lot of like there was a

954
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 1: lot of slander in the press, but also a lot

955
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 1: of attention, um, which you know, it turned turned out

956
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 1: was as good as you could get, but at the

957
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 1: time didn't didn't feel very good. Particularly, I think, yeah,

958
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: but yes, those those forces, those forces were already present

959
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 1: um in you know, in in occupy itself, um, you know,

960
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 1: sort of denouncing it um for its disorganization, um and

961
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 1: then eventually claiming that it was the reason that Bernie

962
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 1: Sanders happened, um, which isn't totally wrong. Yeah, I want

963
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:50,879
Speaker 1: to be really clear, like I think, and I think

964
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 1: what we'll get into this more. But I think like

965
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 1: the thing that about the thing that was important about

966
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:57,280
Speaker 1: Occupy and the thing that the people who in my opinion,

967
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 1: like my comrades during Occupy or people I who were

968
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 1: like doing Occupy stuff but like who I didn't know,

969
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 1: but like now we I you know, I roll with them.

970
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: Most of us have the have the you know, the analysis,

971
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:10,400
Speaker 1: like it was really important that we were doing politics

972
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 1: in the street. It was really important that we were

973
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: back together they were talking politics. And then there were

974
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 1: really really intense, extreme limits to what Occupy could have done.

975
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 1: Um and I think Oakland really pushed those um and

976
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 1: and you know, and got to those but um and

977
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 1: I think the folks who are like no, no no, Occupy

978
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 1: was good at the time, we're like Occupy is terrible.

979
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:31,360
Speaker 1: Um And I think that's worth notice, noting and thinking about.

980
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 1: So I think, yeah, before we sort of go into

981
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,240
Speaker 1: talk a bit about what happened Oakland, to talk about

982
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 1: some of their stuff so on on day to day basis,

983
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:43,839
Speaker 1: like what is occupy actually doing? Because I think that's

984
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 1: also been sort of lost in this whole, Like everyone

985
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 1: remembers like the slogans, and every remembers the fact that

986
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:51,319
Speaker 1: there's a thing, but you know, like that there's there's

987
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 1: a bunch of working groups and they're doing things like

988
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 1: what was that like like day to day and then

989
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: on a sort of brought our little yeah so so

990
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: um So, first of all, again I was only in

991
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 1: New York. I spent some time at occupied Boston as well. UM,

992
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 1: but like I don't have a sense of what other

993
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 1: places were like, so I really can't, I mean other

994
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 1: than having heard from people, So I want to be

995
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 1: very clear that I'm like mostly addressing that. UM. I

996
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,319
Speaker 1: think the thing that was going on was that Zuccatti Park,

997
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 1: Like the park was like total chaos. UM. Part of

998
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,280
Speaker 1: that was because there was a drum circle that basically

999
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 1: was going twenty four hours a day um there, which

1000
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 1: meant that whenever you were down there, and it was

1001
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 1: like a canyon. Zacotti Park is surrounded by skyscrapers, so

1002
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 1: it was just this incredible cacophony all the time, UM,

1003
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 1: which I think was cool. It really ruined a lot

1004
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 1: of finance bros, like like like orally with an a

1005
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 1: there um. But I think like, but it also was

1006
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 1: pretty intense and unpleasant. Sometimes you were like please stop,

1007
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: oh my god, like that's at one point in general assembly,

1008
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 1: I think decided that drums were like only acceptable during

1009
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 1: certain hours, like near the end of the movement, like

1010
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:55,799
Speaker 1: the drums the drum circle got reproached, when in fact

1011
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 1: they were like actually the biggest agents of chaos in

1012
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:03,959
Speaker 1: Zuccati parks that which is another important lesson. But um, yeah,

1013
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 1: I think so. So, you know. Also, because I had

1014
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 1: been in bloomberg Ville, because I've been in Barcelona, I

1015
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:12,839
Speaker 1: didn't invest myself very heavily in camp management stuff, so

1016
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:15,839
Speaker 1: I mostly was doing um work. One of the things

1017
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 1: that I think it's forgotten about is that there were

1018
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 1: snake marches basically three or four a day every day

1019
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 1: after after the first week when we were really small,

1020
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:28,880
Speaker 1: when it got big, they were just constant, constant marches

1021
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 1: through the city, just like always going off, like you

1022
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 1: would run and you'd be on one march, you run

1023
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:35,719
Speaker 1: into another march, like on a Saturday or Sunday, when

1024
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 1: like people were really like out there like it was

1025
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:40,240
Speaker 1: it was really like there was a lot of mayhem.

1026
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,400
Speaker 1: There would be big planned marches that would then be bigger. Um.

1027
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 1: So there was like a lot of like um, what

1028
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 1: people now would call direct action, when I would call

1029
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:54,200
Speaker 1: largely like sort of symbolic practice for direct action. Mostly, UM,

1030
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 1: I don't mind, I like marches. I certainly got my

1031
00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:58,319
Speaker 1: miles in then like I don't feel like I need

1032
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 1: to do that again. But but you know, so then

1033
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 1: at the camp people were just living there. There were

1034
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:05,879
Speaker 1: a lot of like a lot of punks, a lot

1035
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 1: of like you know, a lot of homeless folks obviously,

1036
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 1: and some and some encampments had more at a higher

1037
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 1: concentration about house people. Some in New York because of

1038
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:15,799
Speaker 1: all the media spectacle and all the money that came in.

1039
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 1: We had a lot of nonprofit grifters by the end

1040
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:21,879
Speaker 1: in the encampment. But there's also like a library, um,

1041
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:23,759
Speaker 1: a free library with all these books that like would

1042
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 1: be donated. Um, there's a lot of like you know,

1043
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 1: political agitation. There were people standing around them the you

1044
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 1: know the corners of the park, you know, with with

1045
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 1: signs and you're yelling at people. And it's also important

1046
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:38,360
Speaker 1: to remember that like Zuccati Park in New York is tiny,

1047
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:40,759
Speaker 1: it's tiny. We had originally wanted to do it on

1048
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 1: this big plaza like City Bank plaza. Um, and the

1049
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:46,319
Speaker 1: cops had heard about that and fence it off. So

1050
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 1: on the seventeenth we just like we just, um, what's

1051
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,279
Speaker 1: the word we get? We we did a oh my

1052
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 1: god football metaphors. This we called an audible thank you.

1053
00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 1: So we said, Zuccatti is this tiny little park. It's

1054
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:01,840
Speaker 1: incredibly dense and it's surrounded by you know, like I

1055
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 1: said that skyscrapers. It's in this really weird part of

1056
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 1: the city that no one would ever spend any time

1057
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 1: and if they didn't have to otherwise. Um. So that's

1058
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:10,680
Speaker 1: sort of So there's all this stuff going on, and

1059
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:13,759
Speaker 1: they're all these their general assemblies twice a day, um, which,

1060
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 1: as I said in New York, were particularly unhelpful. UM.

1061
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 1: But I think anarchists and a lot of cities who

1062
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 1: have talked to you, like I had a comrade down

1063
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:22,839
Speaker 1: in DC one in Denver, they sort of said that

1064
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 1: the general assemblies either quickly like got shifted or got

1065
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 1: or became irrelevant. UM. I think the general ssemblies were

1066
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,800
Speaker 1: not We're not in the end where we're symbolically important

1067
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 1: but not but not really driving force UM of my

1068
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 1: experience UM. And then there would be there would be,

1069
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:39,320
Speaker 1: like I said, there'd be a lot of organizing outside

1070
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 1: of the park. There'd be a lot of like meetings

1071
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:46,720
Speaker 1: and you know, talks and UM direct actions and marches, UM.

1072
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:50,840
Speaker 1: And then there would be you know, uh, I guess

1073
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 1: that's kind of the extent of it, right, is that

1074
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 1: there was like a lot of direct action that but

1075
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 1: there was always this park where you could go and

1076
00:55:56,719 --> 00:55:58,760
Speaker 1: like run into people and like hook up with people,

1077
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:01,319
Speaker 1: meet people and like do a weird thing. And I

1078
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 1: think that was really like the heart of the movement

1079
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 1: was the fact that there was this place you could

1080
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 1: go meet someone and like link into something weird and

1081
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 1: maybe cool and maybe not it doesn't matter, but like

1082
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:13,160
Speaker 1: there was always something to do kind of and it

1083
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 1: was constant, was like this our twenty four hour right

1084
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 1: like experience. And I think that was really what UM,

1085
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:21,800
Speaker 1: what separated it from from other from other movement waves

1086
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:24,760
Speaker 1: that we've had, we've had since UM and was was

1087
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:28,879
Speaker 1: was probably I think it's greatest strength in many ways. Yeah,

1088
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 1: I think that that was That was the impression that

1089
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:35,080
Speaker 1: I got. And part of us also was when I

1090
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 1: when I was in college, like every once in a

1091
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 1: while you just get assigned like some person writing but occupy,

1092
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:44,320
Speaker 1: and it was like most of them were just extremely

1093
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 1: cranky about the whole thing. But sure, you know, one

1094
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:49,840
Speaker 1: of one of the things I think was interesting about

1095
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 1: it is that everyone seemed to engree, at least to

1096
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:56,239
Speaker 1: some extent, that part of what was going on was

1097
00:56:56,360 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 1: that it's it's it's this way to do I don't

1098
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 1: know if I did any new formation is quite the

1099
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:03,840
Speaker 1: right word for it, but it's it's this way to

1100
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:09,840
Speaker 1: sort of like rebuild social connections and rebuild like social

1101
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:12,680
Speaker 1: sort of bonds in a way that just had you know,

1102
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 1: as public space becomes just the cops. And like there's

1103
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 1: there's a table in Chinatown that I like call the

1104
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 1: Cops table, and I'm really mad about that, like because

1105
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 1: this is Chicago, Chinatown and I would like go there

1106
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 1: star in front the library, and there's a sign sign

1107
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 1: on the table that says, if you loiter at this table,

1108
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 1: you will be arrested. It's like this is a picnic table,

1109
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 1: Like the cops are you? This table is threatening that

1110
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 1: it is going to arrest you if you use it

1111
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:39,280
Speaker 1: for what's using you know, for what you're supposed to

1112
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:42,840
Speaker 1: use tables for. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, And I think

1113
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 1: I think that's right. I think like it was, you know,

1114
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 1: there was a lot of UM at the time. A

1115
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:51,000
Speaker 1: lot of people were talking about UM embarrassingly about Heart

1116
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:54,320
Speaker 1: and negre is sort of like multitude stuff. Really, I

1117
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:56,920
Speaker 1: really a much better book that was important was also UM,

1118
00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:59,920
Speaker 1: David Graber's debt UM. But I think, like, you know,

1119
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:01,479
Speaker 1: and there was like a lot of like people saying

1120
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 1: things about like the Agora you know, UM democracy list

1121
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:08,880
Speaker 1: sort of political the political encounter space of encounter UM,

1122
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:11,200
Speaker 1: and that stuff wasn't all wrong, Like I mean, I'm

1123
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:12,960
Speaker 1: sort of being a little sarcastic with a lot of it,

1124
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 1: but like, but I think, like like there there was

1125
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, UM. Part of how we

1126
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:23,400
Speaker 1: should I think we should understand UM, the over discussed

1127
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 1: under under you know, like over analyzed word neoliberalism like

1128
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:28,920
Speaker 1: has largely become meaningless. One of the things I should

1129
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 1: I think I think it's valuable for understanding is a

1130
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 1: process by which capitalism responded to the Long Sixties by

1131
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:39,120
Speaker 1: disorganizing its production process such to the Long Sixties could

1132
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 1: never happen again, Right, So like like the four the

1133
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 1: control the like the concentration of workers within within production

1134
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:49,440
Speaker 1: in such a way that they could be agitated by

1135
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:52,880
Speaker 1: students and then like sort of radically unionized wildcat and

1136
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 1: sort of like almost overthrow a government, right, Like the

1137
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 1: neoliberalism is like you know it smashes the unions, yes,

1138
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:03,320
Speaker 1: but it also all so like distributes out the active production, right,

1139
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 1: so that so that that's not so easily done. And

1140
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:09,200
Speaker 1: I think one of the real problems of you know

1141
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:11,760
Speaker 1: that was facing social movement, um, you know, in the

1142
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:13,680
Speaker 1: in the period, you know, the the long period, like

1143
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:15,640
Speaker 1: you know, you had stuff like in the US again

1144
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 1: that is where you know the best. But like you know,

1145
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:19,720
Speaker 1: you have the l A uprising which is huge, um,

1146
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:22,360
Speaker 1: and you have you know the globe the summit hopping

1147
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 1: movement and anti globalization, which you know what could attack

1148
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 1: a target. But there wasn't really a sense of like

1149
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:31,920
Speaker 1: how it felt hard to do a local struggle um

1150
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:36,520
Speaker 1: beyond like literally like a revolutionary riot like l A,

1151
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:39,320
Speaker 1: which you know you can't really precipitate um And you

1152
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 1: can't really precipitate a movement either obviously. But I think

1153
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:45,520
Speaker 1: like but like but like uh a political political movement,

1154
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 1: a form of political organizing that didn't require something on

1155
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 1: the level of George Floyd, which is what the l

1156
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:54,320
Speaker 1: A rebellion was, right, UM. But that also didn't require like, uh,

1157
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 1: an action from capital that you were like striking against, right,

1158
00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:01,560
Speaker 1: like the the you know, the Summits or whatever. UM.

1159
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:04,080
Speaker 1: And that that again, and like all of these eras

1160
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:05,960
Speaker 1: are very important. This is not to like you know,

1161
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 1: obviously like this is with with respect for those movements UM,

1162
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 1: but yeah, we felt I think it felt like we

1163
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:13,400
Speaker 1: were in a political wilderness. And I think that that,

1164
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:17,880
Speaker 1: like UM occupy really and the movement of the squares globally,

1165
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:21,680
Speaker 1: I think UM really like demonstrated that it was possible

1166
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:26,360
Speaker 1: to practice a kind of street politics even without UM

1167
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 1: you know, a shop floor where you can organize, even

1168
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:34,000
Speaker 1: without UM, you know, a a capital p party to

1169
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 1: organize within UM. And I think that was really important.

1170
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 1: I think it also scared a lot of people who

1171
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 1: and and continues to who are committed to those politics

1172
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:44,920
Speaker 1: UM and UM to the twenty century workers movement or

1173
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:47,400
Speaker 1: the nineteenth and twenty century labor movement, which they somehow

1174
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 1: fantasize will come back UM if they just wish hard

1175
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 1: enough and write enough books or whatever. Um And I

1176
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 1: think like, um so, I think that was powerful. I

1177
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:59,240
Speaker 1: also think like like yeah, sorry, we can move on

1178
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:00,760
Speaker 1: to legacy later. But I think that was like I

1179
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:02,720
Speaker 1: think that was very much like an important thing. Was

1180
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:07,040
Speaker 1: was just like and you know, um, I graduated college

1181
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 1: in two thousand nine, um so I was like part

1182
01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:12,160
Speaker 1: of that millennial generation that like, you know, had gone

1183
01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:15,400
Speaker 1: into incredibly deep debt. Like we'd have a college degree

1184
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 1: and then like the bottom fill out of the economy

1185
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 1: there were no jobs. Um And Like I think there

1186
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 1: were a lot of you know, like people who like

1187
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 1: had anticipated a middle class life um of some kind.

1188
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:28,520
Speaker 1: Not that I really had at that point, but whatever, like,

1189
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:30,240
Speaker 1: but but a lot of people, like in my economic

1190
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:36,440
Speaker 1: cohort like had um uh suddenly facing you know, proletarianization, right.

1191
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:38,840
Speaker 1: And I think that was one of the strengths of

1192
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:40,240
Speaker 1: the movement. I think that was that, you know, like

1193
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 1: I mentioned the statistics in great in Spain and Greece, Like,

1194
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 1: I think that was a global aspect of this kind

1195
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:49,080
Speaker 1: of movement um uh arab spring to Like there was

1196
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 1: there was a lot of like that was really a

1197
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:54,720
Speaker 1: response to the economic crisis. Obviously those folks were already

1198
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:56,920
Speaker 1: more proletarian than the people who the young people and

1199
01:01:57,120 --> 01:02:00,440
Speaker 1: in the squares movements. UM. But they they innovated, They

1200
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:03,160
Speaker 1: created the tactics in in Arab Spring right UM Terrer Square,

1201
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:07,600
Speaker 1: most famously in Cairo. UM and UM. I think like

1202
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:12,760
Speaker 1: those creating a meeting place where UM, you didn't require

1203
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:19,480
Speaker 1: a preconstructed like political community UM in order to engage

1204
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:21,920
Speaker 1: was a strength and a weakness UM. And I think

1205
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:24,440
Speaker 1: it also, you know, as a result of the dynamics

1206
01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 1: of the General Assembly, the dynamics of the sort of

1207
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 1: volunteerist nature of that what I'm describing UM, it led

1208
01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:32,840
Speaker 1: to a lot of people who were already confident, who

1209
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 1: are already feeling good, being able to like take more

1210
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 1: power right like UM. Uh. And I think it also

1211
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 1: was a very white movement UM. Certainly in New York,

1212
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 1: but but I think, I think across the country, UM,

1213
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 1: it was largely it was largely you know, it was

1214
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 1: it was majority white in a way that you know,

1215
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:51,080
Speaker 1: by higher percentages than any movement that we've really been

1216
01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:54,080
Speaker 1: part of since UM was UM. And that was obviously

1217
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:56,040
Speaker 1: a limit UM for for reasons that will be obvious

1218
01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:58,240
Speaker 1: to everyone, including the idea that like a lot of

1219
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:03,200
Speaker 1: people pushed that like the police are part of the right. Okay,

1220
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 1: so let's let's let's talk about the police, because you know,

1221
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:08,080
Speaker 1: like that's you know, that's that's one of the other

1222
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:12,280
Speaker 1: extremely important aspects of this is this immense militarization. I mean, okay,

1223
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 1: so I think that the militarization of the police as

1224
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:20,760
Speaker 1: a phrase, I think it's somewhat misleading in that like

1225
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 1: the cops have always like shot people. Yeah, but you know,

1226
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:29,360
Speaker 1: there there's yeah, there, there's there's there's still like there's

1227
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:31,800
Speaker 1: an intense sort of ramp up of the prison sector.

1228
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:36,040
Speaker 1: There's you have this intense boom in the size of prisons.

1229
01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:39,120
Speaker 1: You have, yeah, you have you have increasing parts of

1230
01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:42,200
Speaker 1: the economy that are just the entire towns that used

1231
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:43,680
Speaker 1: to be sort of manufacturing sectors, you used to be

1232
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 1: sort of involved in sort of industrial production that are

1233
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:49,840
Speaker 1: just like the economy is now just there's a prison

1234
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:54,160
Speaker 1: there and right. And I think this is also looking back,

1235
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:55,880
Speaker 1: one of the things that looked like occupy kind of

1236
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 1: ran ran up into because you know, occupies this attempt

1237
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:03,120
Speaker 1: to like you know, form a democratic space and it

1238
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:07,400
Speaker 1: relies crucially on this this thing that is nominally in

1239
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:10,480
Speaker 1: the Constitution but doesn't exist, which is the like the

1240
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:11,960
Speaker 1: right to freedom of speech and the right to freedom

1241
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:14,560
Speaker 1: of assembly and freedom assembly like that is that is

1242
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:17,200
Speaker 1: like that is bullshit. It does not exist. If you like,

1243
01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:20,280
Speaker 1: if you actually believe that this exists, like, try getting

1244
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:23,000
Speaker 1: like seventy people into a space and see how like

1245
01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:24,640
Speaker 1: just like I don't know, like into a street or

1246
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:26,240
Speaker 1: just just like into into like have one people on

1247
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:28,240
Speaker 1: a park and just like see how fast the cops

1248
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:30,959
Speaker 1: show up, because you know, it's like yeah, the first

1249
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 1: time yeah that I was, I was at any kind

1250
01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:39,880
Speaker 1: of protests, cops immediately wanted to take anything I was holding.

1251
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:42,920
Speaker 1: You're not you're not allowed to. The first thing if

1252
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:45,840
Speaker 1: if if if you have anything in your hands, that's

1253
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:48,840
Speaker 1: that that is a that is a problem. Yeah, it's

1254
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:51,040
Speaker 1: like the First Amendment is just it's super completely superseded

1255
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:54,440
Speaker 1: by traffic laws, like laws about like sidewalk maintenance, like no,

1256
01:04:54,560 --> 01:04:56,760
Speaker 1: it's it's all fair like none if it like you're

1257
01:04:56,760 --> 01:04:58,000
Speaker 1: you're not you're not allowed to. And this is this

1258
01:04:58,000 --> 01:04:59,440
Speaker 1: is I think is partially what this is kind of

1259
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:01,480
Speaker 1: a talk about this parts I think why there's so

1260
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:03,479
Speaker 1: much focused on the right about the first minute because

1261
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:05,520
Speaker 1: they want to they want to draw attention away from

1262
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:08,040
Speaker 1: the fact that, like the actual thing that's fake about

1263
01:05:08,080 --> 01:05:11,040
Speaker 1: it is that you can't gather people and meet anywhere,

1264
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:13,280
Speaker 1: and they want to draw it into these like inane

1265
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:15,680
Speaker 1: like this professor like said the N word a bunch

1266
01:05:15,680 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 1: of times in class. Isn't it bad that people are

1267
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:20,680
Speaker 1: mad at them? But but if I think also go

1268
01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 1: to time, this sort of back to occupy, you know. Okay, So,

1269
01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:30,560
Speaker 1: so occupy functions right insofar as there is a a

1270
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:33,720
Speaker 1: physical location where people can go and physically interact with

1271
01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:37,840
Speaker 1: each other. And that's a problem because at some point

1272
01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:42,360
Speaker 1: the police are just like no, and they start clearing

1273
01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:43,920
Speaker 1: the encampments. And I think this is this is the

1274
01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:47,720
Speaker 1: other thing that occupy is that outside of like parts

1275
01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 1: of Oakland and that that's a whole other thing that Yeah,

1276
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:56,240
Speaker 1: but it's it's it's incredibly studiously non violent in a

1277
01:05:56,320 --> 01:06:03,720
Speaker 1: way that like nothing I've ever seen before since is yeah. So,

1278
01:06:03,720 --> 01:06:05,680
Speaker 1: so so there's a lot there. I'm gonna I want

1279
01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:07,640
Speaker 1: to talk about it because that's there's a lot um

1280
01:06:07,680 --> 01:06:09,320
Speaker 1: But yeah, so I think I think the militarization of

1281
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:13,000
Speaker 1: the police thesis um is is incomplete if you don't

1282
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:16,120
Speaker 1: also talk about the policification of the military, right, so,

1283
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:18,640
Speaker 1: like part of what happens with with the great expansion

1284
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:22,720
Speaker 1: of them of the carstral state. Part of that is

1285
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:26,480
Speaker 1: also a response to the Vietnam War um and and

1286
01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:29,560
Speaker 1: mass resistance within you know, the troops they were like

1287
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:31,280
Speaker 1: in the Vietnam the in like the last two years

1288
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 1: when ground troops are there in Vietnam, there's like four

1289
01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:37,320
Speaker 1: hundred fragging incidents where where um you know, where where

1290
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:41,240
Speaker 1: privates and recruits killed their officers. The U. S. Army

1291
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:44,480
Speaker 1: during the during Vietnam was on the brink of of

1292
01:06:44,520 --> 01:06:47,800
Speaker 1: collapse in the way that like like the Russian Army

1293
01:06:47,840 --> 01:06:50,680
Speaker 1: was looking in it was like like like the numbers

1294
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:52,120
Speaker 1: I think I think still number one point. There was

1295
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:54,240
Speaker 1: like forty of the army by the end of Vietnam

1296
01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:58,000
Speaker 1: was either on strike or just like not following orders. Yeah, no,

1297
01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:00,120
Speaker 1: it was. It was complete. There was the re in

1298
01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 1: the that Nixon pursues vietnamalization, which is when they just

1299
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:06,000
Speaker 1: start doing air campaigns, bombing and napalm is because they

1300
01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:08,560
Speaker 1: couldn't rely on ground troops anymore. They just they were useless.

1301
01:07:08,600 --> 01:07:10,439
Speaker 1: They were all high. Um, you know the talk about

1302
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:11,680
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of talking about like Heroin,

1303
01:07:11,720 --> 01:07:12,800
Speaker 1: but like that was actually kind of a form of

1304
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:15,680
Speaker 1: resistance within the lines in a complicated way. Whatever. Okay,

1305
01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:19,120
Speaker 1: that's all very So the military realizes that it can't

1306
01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:23,120
Speaker 1: function as a mass military in the model that nation

1307
01:07:23,200 --> 01:07:25,720
Speaker 1: states have done since the Napoleonic Wars, right, which is

1308
01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:28,480
Speaker 1: like the mass you know, the mass recruitment of the

1309
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:31,800
Speaker 1: citizen soldier. Um, that's sort of how war is fought

1310
01:07:32,040 --> 01:07:35,320
Speaker 1: between you know, eighteen ten and nineteen seventy. And then

1311
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:38,000
Speaker 1: it becomes clear that that's not gonna work anymore because

1312
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:41,320
Speaker 1: because the aims of the countries and the power of

1313
01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:44,640
Speaker 1: nationalism have become too abstracted. Fascism has done too much

1314
01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:46,800
Speaker 1: damage to that image. There's just like there's it doesn't

1315
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:49,480
Speaker 1: really work anymore. So the military turns into a sort

1316
01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:52,080
Speaker 1: of what it always was also, which is like a

1317
01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:54,439
Speaker 1: colonial policing force. And so the police the military drift

1318
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:58,000
Speaker 1: towards one another in form and function. Okay, So in

1319
01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:01,040
Speaker 1: occupy um, one of the acrohistories that I think it's

1320
01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:03,919
Speaker 1: forgotten is that like I mean, because because it took

1321
01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:06,000
Speaker 1: a week, and like, who remembers this week except for

1322
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:08,560
Speaker 1: like weirdos like me who were there. Um is it

1323
01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:10,439
Speaker 1: like there was no one at Zuccatti in the first

1324
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:12,440
Speaker 1: first week. And one of the big things that happened

1325
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:15,439
Speaker 1: was these these these you know, young white girls got

1326
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:17,840
Speaker 1: caught in a police net and pepper sprayed, and there

1327
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:19,599
Speaker 1: was this video that went around with them getting pepper

1328
01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:22,439
Speaker 1: sprayed and screaming. Is particularly this this woman on her knees,

1329
01:08:22,439 --> 01:08:25,080
Speaker 1: you know, screaming with with tears and pepper sprayed going

1330
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:28,280
Speaker 1: down her face, and that really outraged people because you know,

1331
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:30,439
Speaker 1: they were you know, it was police depression and police violence.

1332
01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:33,320
Speaker 1: So in terms of the question of non violence, yes, um,

1333
01:08:33,360 --> 01:08:35,200
Speaker 1: there was a lot of non violence. It was a

1334
01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:39,679
Speaker 1: constant fight that took honestly took until the George Floyd

1335
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:43,160
Speaker 1: uprising for the right outside to win. Frankly, but but

1336
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:46,400
Speaker 1: but but during occupy there was you know, there was

1337
01:08:46,439 --> 01:08:50,360
Speaker 1: a lot of non violence nonsense, um, And I think

1338
01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:53,120
Speaker 1: like but but another thing that happened though was that

1339
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:55,639
Speaker 1: like you know, like I said, people were marching every day.

1340
01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:58,320
Speaker 1: So even in New York, where I think the political

1341
01:08:58,400 --> 01:09:00,800
Speaker 1: height was kind of achieved. October first, when we took

1342
01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:03,200
Speaker 1: the Brooklyn Bridge. Um, I think I think New York

1343
01:09:03,280 --> 01:09:06,519
Speaker 1: never really like had a big moment again, Like it

1344
01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:10,400
Speaker 1: was largely sort of like smaller things after that. But um,

1345
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:12,360
Speaker 1: but like and there was a mass arrest on the

1346
01:09:12,400 --> 01:09:14,280
Speaker 1: Brooklyn Bridge. We marched over the Brooklyn Bridge. The brookn

1347
01:09:14,320 --> 01:09:16,960
Speaker 1: Bridge got shut down. They arrested seven hundred of US. Um.

1348
01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:19,240
Speaker 1: It was the first big infrastructure shutdown that happened in

1349
01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:20,760
Speaker 1: the US since the l A Riots. It was it

1350
01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:22,880
Speaker 1: was a big deal at the time. Now it happened.

1351
01:09:23,200 --> 01:09:25,080
Speaker 1: Can I put a note doubt though, specifically for the

1352
01:09:25,080 --> 01:09:28,400
Speaker 1: Brooklyn Bridge if you're because people I've seen every every

1353
01:09:28,400 --> 01:09:29,880
Speaker 1: single time there's one of these movements, people try to

1354
01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:32,639
Speaker 1: take the Brooklyn Bridge and they all got arrested. It's like,

1355
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:36,000
Speaker 1: can can you all, like please, I am begging you,

1356
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:37,720
Speaker 1: if you're going to try to take a bridge, make

1357
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:40,000
Speaker 1: sure you have a way out, Like, yeah, you have

1358
01:09:40,120 --> 01:09:45,240
Speaker 1: to hold one of the sites to get arrested. Yeah, yeah, exactly,

1359
01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:49,040
Speaker 1: you got a way out. A bridge is designed to

1360
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:53,240
Speaker 1: not have a way out, exactly. Please please don't all

1361
01:09:53,280 --> 01:09:57,960
Speaker 1: get arrested. It's it's in fact bad and yeah, sorry exactly.

1362
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:01,559
Speaker 1: I have seen it. Few people successed. We take bridges

1363
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:03,760
Speaker 1: a few times, but that's because there was like three

1364
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:07,640
Speaker 1: cop cars and like fifteen thousand people. If you have

1365
01:10:07,840 --> 01:10:11,920
Speaker 1: like a block with two hundred kids, you're not going

1366
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:27,960
Speaker 1: to be able to hold the bridge. Yeah, welcome to

1367
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:30,639
Speaker 1: it had happened. Here a podcast about a crumbling empire

1368
01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:33,519
Speaker 1: and planting seeds in the spaces between. Here's part two

1369
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:35,840
Speaker 1: of our interview with Vicky Oustle while about the legacy

1370
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:38,640
Speaker 1: of Occupy Wall Street. But but you know, like you

1371
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:40,200
Speaker 1: were saying, you know, like that that you know, don't

1372
01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:42,639
Speaker 1: get arrested, it's bad. So I think when occupy really started,

1373
01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:46,040
Speaker 1: you know, we were mostly people who had been educated

1374
01:10:46,040 --> 01:10:48,760
Speaker 1: by the co optation of the civil rights movement, which

1375
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:50,479
Speaker 1: is that it was all non violent and that the

1376
01:10:50,479 --> 01:10:52,800
Speaker 1: whole thing was getting arrested and Martin Luther King was

1377
01:10:52,840 --> 01:10:54,479
Speaker 1: like the only voice that made any sense, and that

1378
01:10:54,520 --> 01:10:56,439
Speaker 1: was what was affective. Blah blah blah blah blah. Um.

1379
01:10:56,439 --> 01:10:58,000
Speaker 1: We had all learned that in school, right, we had

1380
01:10:58,040 --> 01:10:59,600
Speaker 1: all been trained that like non violence was like the

1381
01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:01,880
Speaker 1: only thing that made sense and that worked. Um. And

1382
01:11:01,920 --> 01:11:03,920
Speaker 1: I think like those of us who learned about it

1383
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:06,160
Speaker 1: at all in school, which is certainly not everyone. But

1384
01:11:06,280 --> 01:11:10,880
Speaker 1: like I think, like like the the experience of occupy

1385
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:13,680
Speaker 1: of like every day just getting beat up by the

1386
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:18,000
Speaker 1: cops every day, like getting attacked, getting arrested. Some people

1387
01:11:18,160 --> 01:11:22,760
Speaker 1: got really some people got really nihilistically nonviolent, Like some

1388
01:11:22,760 --> 01:11:25,760
Speaker 1: people like really dug in and they're like like like

1389
01:11:25,800 --> 01:11:28,120
Speaker 1: we're like no, like there is nothing we can do

1390
01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:30,639
Speaker 1: except be beaten and turn of this like real masochistic game.

1391
01:11:31,080 --> 01:11:35,559
Speaker 1: But that happens. That still happens all the time. Oh yeah, yeah,

1392
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:38,040
Speaker 1: that's that's one. That's one common response. But another thing

1393
01:11:38,040 --> 01:11:41,280
Speaker 1: that happened was that people started breaking through that that

1394
01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:44,200
Speaker 1: that ship. People. People started on the ground, Like I

1395
01:11:44,240 --> 01:11:46,560
Speaker 1: remember a march, you know, early on, you know, the

1396
01:11:46,560 --> 01:11:48,280
Speaker 1: police would attack and everyone would sort of like de

1397
01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:50,439
Speaker 1: try to de escalate, and people would try to like

1398
01:11:50,479 --> 01:11:52,599
Speaker 1: you know, like like talk to the cops or whatever.

1399
01:11:52,840 --> 01:11:55,400
Speaker 1: And like by November when right before the camps got cleared,

1400
01:11:55,439 --> 01:11:58,639
Speaker 1: I remember being on a march where we stole all

1401
01:11:58,680 --> 01:12:01,840
Speaker 1: of their orange betting there using and you're just holding

1402
01:12:01,880 --> 01:12:04,360
Speaker 1: it over our head at a large and like trapping

1403
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:06,479
Speaker 1: cops in it. So like even in New York where

1404
01:12:06,479 --> 01:12:09,800
Speaker 1: things never got that intense, um like in some ways

1405
01:12:09,840 --> 01:12:12,200
Speaker 1: in terms of direct action like that lesson on the ground,

1406
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:15,559
Speaker 1: like you have to be you have to be very

1407
01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:18,360
Speaker 1: ideologically committed to get hit with the baton three times

1408
01:12:18,360 --> 01:12:20,040
Speaker 1: and still think the police are on your side. You know,

1409
01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:21,600
Speaker 1: you have to, like really, you have to really be

1410
01:12:21,720 --> 01:12:23,519
Speaker 1: drinking the kool aid. And some people are like some

1411
01:12:23,520 --> 01:12:26,559
Speaker 1: people really do want to believe that. But I think, um,

1412
01:12:26,600 --> 01:12:30,960
Speaker 1: I think that was one So during occupy, like those

1413
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:34,240
Speaker 1: of us who hated the police were pretty lonely even

1414
01:12:34,280 --> 01:12:36,040
Speaker 1: though the police were beating us up. But by the

1415
01:12:36,160 --> 01:12:38,479
Speaker 1: end of occupy, the seeds had really been sown for

1416
01:12:38,520 --> 01:12:42,320
Speaker 1: a lot of generational understanding of the police that didn't

1417
01:12:42,360 --> 01:12:47,080
Speaker 1: necessarily immediately so fruit like it wasn't immediately obvious, but

1418
01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:49,960
Speaker 1: I think, like, I think like folks who stayed in

1419
01:12:50,040 --> 01:12:53,720
Speaker 1: struggle from there grew more and more anti police. Yeah,

1420
01:12:53,760 --> 01:12:56,120
Speaker 1: that was that in general, that was well, okay, so

1421
01:12:56,160 --> 01:12:59,639
Speaker 1: mystres was less with occupying more with like the two

1422
01:12:59,640 --> 01:13:01,640
Speaker 1: dozen beteen stuff in Turkey, but it like that that

1423
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:04,080
Speaker 1: was because I was brought up in that like the

1424
01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:08,439
Speaker 1: sort of like Foe Gandhi and like, yeah, MLK civilis

1425
01:13:08,439 --> 01:13:11,080
Speaker 1: a Beans and then it was like like I watched

1426
01:13:11,120 --> 01:13:13,880
Speaker 1: Turkey happened and it was like, hey, here's my friend

1427
01:13:14,080 --> 01:13:16,400
Speaker 1: just like getting his ribs broken by a cop. And

1428
01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:18,840
Speaker 1: then like there's Raba and you know, and Ba is

1429
01:13:18,840 --> 01:13:20,680
Speaker 1: sort of where with the Egyptian movement dies and Ba

1430
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:22,320
Speaker 1: they just you know, they bring out the machine guns

1431
01:13:22,360 --> 01:13:25,040
Speaker 1: and they just shoot everyone. Yeah, and at a certain point,

1432
01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:27,599
Speaker 1: like you know, this is the limited non violence, right?

1433
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:30,639
Speaker 1: Is that what happens if they just shoot you? And

1434
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:34,040
Speaker 1: and Gandhi you know, if what if you ever want

1435
01:13:34,040 --> 01:13:36,439
Speaker 1: to like go down to the Gandhi rabbit hole, like

1436
01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:40,920
Speaker 1: Gandhi like writes this letter to like like the Jews

1437
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:43,799
Speaker 1: of Germany where he's telling them to like throw themselves

1438
01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:46,439
Speaker 1: on the blades of the Nazis, and it's like this,

1439
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:48,719
Speaker 1: it's it's this is this is like, yes, it sucks.

1440
01:13:48,760 --> 01:13:52,760
Speaker 1: This is ridiculous, Like just this is like it's being

1441
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:58,120
Speaker 1: complacent for abuse. UM. Anyone Too Studios has a really

1442
01:13:58,120 --> 01:14:03,280
Speaker 1: good video on why non violence helps the state UM

1443
01:14:03,320 --> 01:14:07,640
Speaker 1: and how basically activists that try to force other you know,

1444
01:14:07,720 --> 01:14:11,839
Speaker 1: demonstrators to adhere strictly to non violence, that's basically that's

1445
01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:17,400
Speaker 1: that's them, and that's them basically saying that if like that,

1446
01:14:17,400 --> 01:14:20,680
Speaker 1: that's them endorsing the police beating somebody up like like that,

1447
01:14:20,840 --> 01:14:23,479
Speaker 1: Like that's it's it's not actually tied to any kind

1448
01:14:23,479 --> 01:14:26,000
Speaker 1: of movement, and it doesn't actually help, Like I and

1449
01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:28,680
Speaker 1: we could actually see this last year with like the

1450
01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:31,320
Speaker 1: first few weeks of like you know, abuse from the

1451
01:14:31,360 --> 01:14:34,760
Speaker 1: state actually making headlines and actually changing people. But after

1452
01:14:34,800 --> 01:14:37,960
Speaker 1: a while it just didn't matter, Like a cop could

1453
01:14:38,000 --> 01:14:41,440
Speaker 1: put someone down and pummel their face in like August,

1454
01:14:41,479 --> 01:14:43,759
Speaker 1: and like who gives a ship? Nobody, Like it doesn't

1455
01:14:43,800 --> 01:14:46,280
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter, you know, Like that's that's why I

1456
01:14:47,280 --> 01:14:49,720
Speaker 1: found it funny when you talked about, like, you know,

1457
01:14:49,840 --> 01:14:52,599
Speaker 1: people getting mad because cops were like macing people when

1458
01:14:52,640 --> 01:14:54,800
Speaker 1: they surrounto them, And I'm like, if that happened, no one,

1459
01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:56,840
Speaker 1: no one would give a ship, Like yeah, well, like

1460
01:14:56,880 --> 01:15:00,160
Speaker 1: I think, not not at all anymore. Yeah, totally. Well,

1461
01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:03,400
Speaker 1: I think I think part of it is the first

1462
01:15:03,479 --> 01:15:07,759
Speaker 1: time that you see it, it's like what on earth?

1463
01:15:08,520 --> 01:15:10,280
Speaker 1: Like this? This I think has been one of the

1464
01:15:10,320 --> 01:15:12,320
Speaker 1: things that's been the core of the whole sort of

1465
01:15:13,160 --> 01:15:18,519
Speaker 1: nineteen like late sort of cycle revolutions. Is that like

1466
01:15:19,280 --> 01:15:21,760
Speaker 1: if if you're just like a dude in a grocery

1467
01:15:21,760 --> 01:15:25,840
Speaker 1: store and some guy runs in, is like running away

1468
01:15:25,840 --> 01:15:27,720
Speaker 1: from the cops and then like fifteen riot cops and

1469
01:15:27,720 --> 01:15:28,920
Speaker 1: just start beating the showout of them, which is the

1470
01:15:28,920 --> 01:15:31,080
Speaker 1: thing that happens like a lot. Like if you just

1471
01:15:31,240 --> 01:15:35,720
Speaker 1: see that, right, there's no way you can actually like

1472
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:39,280
Speaker 1: like if you ordinary person just witness the cops running

1473
01:15:39,320 --> 01:15:41,160
Speaker 1: up and just beating the show someone, like, there's no

1474
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:43,800
Speaker 1: way you can't not be sort of radicalized against the

1475
01:15:43,840 --> 01:15:45,600
Speaker 1: police by it. But like, yeah, but there's there's a

1476
01:15:45,640 --> 01:15:49,519
Speaker 1: certain point where you hit it. The decentilization happens more

1477
01:15:49,640 --> 01:15:54,400
Speaker 1: quickly than what it should. Um, and we stopped caring.

1478
01:15:55,400 --> 01:15:57,120
Speaker 1: I agree. I agree with both of you that like that,

1479
01:15:57,280 --> 01:16:00,000
Speaker 1: Like both it is shocking and radicalizing and we get

1480
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:05,480
Speaker 1: desensitized because there is so much spectacular pressure to naturalize

1481
01:16:05,479 --> 01:16:07,600
Speaker 1: the police and non violence ideology is part of that

1482
01:16:07,720 --> 01:16:10,639
Speaker 1: is part of naturalizing police violence, right, Like, there's nothing

1483
01:16:10,640 --> 01:16:13,240
Speaker 1: you can do about the police violence. Um, so all

1484
01:16:13,280 --> 01:16:15,960
Speaker 1: you can do is control yourself, and therefore you should

1485
01:16:16,080 --> 01:16:18,080
Speaker 1: you know, you should be better or whatever. Yeah, Gandhi

1486
01:16:18,120 --> 01:16:21,479
Speaker 1: had this whole fantasy about Um, the perfect army would

1487
01:16:21,520 --> 01:16:25,040
Speaker 1: march unarmed into machine gun fire, um and would just

1488
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:27,400
Speaker 1: be mowed down. It's it's he's a fascist, frankly. Um

1489
01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:30,400
Speaker 1: And and yeah, and you only need to look at

1490
01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:32,960
Speaker 1: his opinions about black Africans when he was when he

1491
01:16:33,280 --> 01:16:35,080
Speaker 1: Africot to see that even if you even if you

1492
01:16:35,160 --> 01:16:38,880
Speaker 1: just read like like even if you just read like

1493
01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:42,640
Speaker 1: self reliance, it's like this is you know, it's what

1494
01:16:42,680 --> 01:16:45,040
Speaker 1: everything I want to talk about with with the peace

1495
01:16:45,080 --> 01:16:48,680
Speaker 1: police though, which is that like they're also like in

1496
01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:54,240
Speaker 1: terms of like fighting, like inflicting violence on other protesters,

1497
01:16:54,320 --> 01:16:57,120
Speaker 1: Like they are the most violent like of of of

1498
01:16:57,160 --> 01:16:58,960
Speaker 1: the factions you see in a pro that does happen

1499
01:16:59,080 --> 01:17:03,120
Speaker 1: very well, maybe maybe not the most like it does

1500
01:17:03,200 --> 01:17:06,519
Speaker 1: happen like like they beat people up. Like yeah, I

1501
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:08,559
Speaker 1: was just gonna say, like it ties into like protest security,

1502
01:17:08,640 --> 01:17:12,360
Speaker 1: and when protest security is usually working with these more

1503
01:17:12,360 --> 01:17:15,519
Speaker 1: like peace police type organizers, and then they use protest

1504
01:17:15,520 --> 01:17:18,639
Speaker 1: security to literally beat up people who are doing more

1505
01:17:18,720 --> 01:17:22,479
Speaker 1: radical action against the state. Um. That happens all the time. Yes,

1506
01:17:22,520 --> 01:17:26,040
Speaker 1: oh yeah, protest security. When I see protest security or marshals, um,

1507
01:17:26,080 --> 01:17:28,280
Speaker 1: I know exactly that that the that we're in a

1508
01:17:28,320 --> 01:17:30,680
Speaker 1: bad We're in a bad march. Um. The only time

1509
01:17:30,720 --> 01:17:34,360
Speaker 1: I've ever been physically assaulted by another protester was during

1510
01:17:34,400 --> 01:17:37,760
Speaker 1: Occupy actually, um during after the night after you've been evicted, um,

1511
01:17:37,800 --> 01:17:41,120
Speaker 1: which is like November, I think. UM. And if people

1512
01:17:41,160 --> 01:17:44,479
Speaker 1: don't remember, Obama and the FBI coordinated this nationally, all

1513
01:17:44,479 --> 01:17:48,040
Speaker 1: the occupying encampments got swept within a week of each other. UM.

1514
01:17:48,720 --> 01:17:51,040
Speaker 1: On that march, Um, We're marching around even march arout

1515
01:17:51,040 --> 01:17:53,479
Speaker 1: all night, UM. And I'm just dragging a trash can

1516
01:17:53,520 --> 01:17:55,439
Speaker 1: into the street because we're being followed by police cars,

1517
01:17:55,479 --> 01:17:58,559
Speaker 1: and I'm literally attempting to like do some education at

1518
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:00,559
Speaker 1: the same time. I'm like pulling in the trash can

1519
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:02,720
Speaker 1: in the street, and I'm yelling, you know, I am

1520
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:05,879
Speaker 1: doing this because I want to protect us from police violence.

1521
01:18:05,920 --> 01:18:07,840
Speaker 1: Like if this is in the street, then the cop

1522
01:18:07,880 --> 01:18:10,160
Speaker 1: cars can't catch us as much. That's why we build barakat.

1523
01:18:10,240 --> 01:18:12,479
Speaker 1: I'm like literally trying to like yell this because, like,

1524
01:18:12,600 --> 01:18:15,000
Speaker 1: you know, because pulling a trash can the streets incredibly

1525
01:18:15,000 --> 01:18:17,120
Speaker 1: and effective ultimately, so it was like literally it was

1526
01:18:17,120 --> 01:18:19,799
Speaker 1: literally just like for education purposes. At that point, basically anyway,

1527
01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:21,439
Speaker 1: especially since a lot of people would like pull them

1528
01:18:21,439 --> 01:18:23,880
Speaker 1: back out of the street. Whatever. This guy runs up

1529
01:18:23,880 --> 01:18:26,320
Speaker 1: on me and grabs me by the collar and lifts

1530
01:18:26,360 --> 01:18:28,559
Speaker 1: me up and like threatens me with this fucking fist,

1531
01:18:28,560 --> 01:18:30,639
Speaker 1: and he says, if my mom can't get to work

1532
01:18:30,680 --> 01:18:33,760
Speaker 1: tomorrow because of you, like I'll beat the ship out

1533
01:18:33,760 --> 01:18:35,560
Speaker 1: of you. And we're like we're marching in Manhattan, and

1534
01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:37,360
Speaker 1: like one a m I'm like, what the hell are

1535
01:18:37,400 --> 01:18:39,360
Speaker 1: you talking about? And like he would have he would

1536
01:18:39,360 --> 01:18:41,000
Speaker 1: have hurt me, like pretty bad if a friend of

1537
01:18:41,000 --> 01:18:42,479
Speaker 1: mine had like luckily had my back and like de

1538
01:18:42,560 --> 01:18:44,720
Speaker 1: escalated a bit. That's the only time I've ever been

1539
01:18:44,760 --> 01:18:49,120
Speaker 1: like physically like brought up like into a fight um

1540
01:18:49,360 --> 01:18:53,040
Speaker 1: with by by another protester. Was was a guy insisting

1541
01:18:53,080 --> 01:18:55,320
Speaker 1: that me dragging a trash can into the street was

1542
01:18:55,360 --> 01:19:01,240
Speaker 1: beyond the pale. But I want to just talk a

1543
01:19:01,240 --> 01:19:04,640
Speaker 1: bit more, but like how systematic the violence was, like

1544
01:19:04,680 --> 01:19:07,840
Speaker 1: because Okay, So originally I was gonna try to get

1545
01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:10,000
Speaker 1: someone from Occupy Oaklands to come talk about this, and

1546
01:19:10,040 --> 01:19:12,599
Speaker 1: I talked to a lot of people and the biggest

1547
01:19:12,600 --> 01:19:14,599
Speaker 1: thing that I got was that no one would talk

1548
01:19:14,600 --> 01:19:16,960
Speaker 1: about it on the record because they got because Oakland

1549
01:19:16,960 --> 01:19:19,240
Speaker 1: had Oakland had a blacklist, and if if you were

1550
01:19:19,240 --> 01:19:22,920
Speaker 1: inoccupy and like anyone else found out about it, like

1551
01:19:23,400 --> 01:19:26,360
Speaker 1: people like people couldn't people spent half a decade just

1552
01:19:27,040 --> 01:19:29,720
Speaker 1: not being able to find jobs because they just play

1553
01:19:29,720 --> 01:19:32,800
Speaker 1: black listed everyone. And like to this day, like the

1554
01:19:32,800 --> 01:19:35,000
Speaker 1: thing I was told was like, yeah, I'm I won't

1555
01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:37,800
Speaker 1: talk about this because you know, like if if I

1556
01:19:37,840 --> 01:19:39,559
Speaker 1: talk about this, like I will be fired. All of

1557
01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:42,200
Speaker 1: my family everyone around me will be fired. And there's

1558
01:19:42,280 --> 01:19:43,800
Speaker 1: like I think, like this is the ever thing. But

1559
01:19:43,840 --> 01:19:46,960
Speaker 1: when we talked about sort of the collapsive occupy, the

1560
01:19:46,960 --> 01:19:49,720
Speaker 1: the extent to which after Obamba in the f bare

1561
01:19:49,840 --> 01:19:54,080
Speaker 1: ordered the camps closed, the policy is that the cops

1562
01:19:54,080 --> 01:19:56,759
Speaker 1: are going to torture anyone who attempts to like gather

1563
01:19:56,880 --> 01:20:00,559
Speaker 1: in a place yep, yep. For for two years, you

1564
01:20:00,560 --> 01:20:03,120
Speaker 1: couldn't have a meeting outside without the police attacking basically,

1565
01:20:03,160 --> 01:20:06,720
Speaker 1: and um and um and yeah, I mean it was

1566
01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:09,400
Speaker 1: it was you know, I think like a lot of

1567
01:20:09,560 --> 01:20:13,080
Speaker 1: um the people who now claim that that occupy is

1568
01:20:13,160 --> 01:20:15,200
Speaker 1: the reason that they do politics or whatever, for burning

1569
01:20:15,200 --> 01:20:17,479
Speaker 1: Sanders or whatever. Um. At the time, they were saying

1570
01:20:17,479 --> 01:20:20,920
Speaker 1: that the reason it collapses because there was no UM organization.

1571
01:20:20,960 --> 01:20:23,320
Speaker 1: There was no structure, there was no political party, there

1572
01:20:23,360 --> 01:20:26,000
Speaker 1: was no you know whatever, there was no demands. And

1573
01:20:26,040 --> 01:20:29,599
Speaker 1: like it's true that it was poorly organized, like there's

1574
01:20:29,720 --> 01:20:33,680
Speaker 1: no doubt, um, but like we got beat out of

1575
01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:35,679
Speaker 1: the streets, Like we got beat out of the streets,

1576
01:20:35,680 --> 01:20:38,720
Speaker 1: and like people tried for six months really intensely, and

1577
01:20:38,720 --> 01:20:41,439
Speaker 1: for another six months after that less intensely to restart

1578
01:20:41,479 --> 01:20:44,120
Speaker 1: that energy. Um. There was all this works forwards, like

1579
01:20:44,120 --> 01:20:47,080
Speaker 1: a general strike on May Day, UM two thousand twelve,

1580
01:20:47,120 --> 01:20:49,400
Speaker 1: which ended up not really working, which is actually exactly

1581
01:20:49,439 --> 01:20:53,000
Speaker 1: the kind of demand filled one day of action kind

1582
01:20:53,040 --> 01:20:55,880
Speaker 1: of politics that they were demanding actually really failed, which

1583
01:20:55,880 --> 01:20:58,559
Speaker 1: I think is telling. But but in the meantime, like

1584
01:20:58,600 --> 01:21:00,960
Speaker 1: you know, like occupy, like Jocattie got cleared. But for

1585
01:21:00,960 --> 01:21:03,280
Speaker 1: a while, there was the thing No one remembers this,

1586
01:21:03,320 --> 01:21:04,920
Speaker 1: I don't think, but there was a thing up in

1587
01:21:05,040 --> 01:21:08,360
Speaker 1: um uh Union Square, UM. There was an occupation for

1588
01:21:08,360 --> 01:21:10,400
Speaker 1: three weeks. There was like all the Union Square freaks

1589
01:21:10,760 --> 01:21:14,439
Speaker 1: um and like a bunch of occupiers UM. And yeah,

1590
01:21:14,479 --> 01:21:17,439
Speaker 1: the cops just like it was just like batons out

1591
01:21:17,560 --> 01:21:19,920
Speaker 1: on site. For a few years in New York, and

1592
01:21:19,920 --> 01:21:22,120
Speaker 1: I know it was like that everywhere else or most

1593
01:21:22,120 --> 01:21:24,920
Speaker 1: everywhere else, and that that came down from on high

1594
01:21:25,160 --> 01:21:27,479
Speaker 1: that like the police were just like, oh, what was

1595
01:21:27,560 --> 01:21:30,639
Speaker 1: dangerous about this was people gathering in public? So we

1596
01:21:30,760 --> 01:21:33,280
Speaker 1: really need to like we really need to like enforce

1597
01:21:33,320 --> 01:21:36,000
Speaker 1: the Second Amendment being meaningless now, we really need to

1598
01:21:36,040 --> 01:21:40,719
Speaker 1: stop meetings from happening in public. UM. And that violence

1599
01:21:40,800 --> 01:21:43,280
Speaker 1: was super intense and super real, and a lot of

1600
01:21:43,320 --> 01:21:45,760
Speaker 1: people got beaten out of the movement, you know, and

1601
01:21:45,800 --> 01:21:47,840
Speaker 1: a lot of people got really demoralized and left. And

1602
01:21:48,040 --> 01:21:51,160
Speaker 1: I understand why. Um, it was scary and awful, and

1603
01:21:51,200 --> 01:21:53,559
Speaker 1: there was a lot of repression and um, you know,

1604
01:21:53,600 --> 01:21:55,760
Speaker 1: and it and it, and it has continued to sort

1605
01:21:55,760 --> 01:21:58,760
Speaker 1: of that that kind of repression has continued to escalate. UM.

1606
01:21:58,800 --> 01:22:02,040
Speaker 1: But what has successfully happened in our movements, I think,

1607
01:22:02,040 --> 01:22:04,080
Speaker 1: to our to our credit, is that we haven't actually

1608
01:22:04,120 --> 01:22:09,559
Speaker 1: formed the kinds of hierarchical organizations that allow for more

1609
01:22:09,600 --> 01:22:12,479
Speaker 1: effective police repression. All the police have right now against us,

1610
01:22:12,520 --> 01:22:15,400
Speaker 1: for the most part, is batons in the street. Um.

1611
01:22:15,439 --> 01:22:18,120
Speaker 1: They have a lot more trouble infiltrating, UM, a lot

1612
01:22:18,120 --> 01:22:21,120
Speaker 1: more trouble, which doesn't mean, they aren't trying like crazy,

1613
01:22:21,160 --> 01:22:23,280
Speaker 1: but they have a lot more trouble um um taking

1614
01:22:23,280 --> 01:22:25,400
Speaker 1: down the movements in the in a sort of cointel

1615
01:22:25,439 --> 01:22:29,200
Speaker 1: pro way, right. Um. The modes of oppression have changed

1616
01:22:29,200 --> 01:22:31,800
Speaker 1: a bit. Um. But that's also because we don't have

1617
01:22:32,560 --> 01:22:33,840
Speaker 1: it's a combination of the fact that we don't have

1618
01:22:33,920 --> 01:22:35,800
Speaker 1: those forms of organization, but we also don't have those

1619
01:22:35,800 --> 01:22:39,120
Speaker 1: forms of organization because they don't emerge spontaneously from our

1620
01:22:39,160 --> 01:22:41,479
Speaker 1: living conditions like they used to. UM. So I think

1621
01:22:41,479 --> 01:22:44,080
Speaker 1: it's it's you can't just give credit to any one thing.

1622
01:22:44,120 --> 01:22:46,080
Speaker 1: There's a lot of different factors at play. I think

1623
01:22:46,920 --> 01:22:48,240
Speaker 1: I will say one of one of the other things

1624
01:22:48,280 --> 01:22:50,080
Speaker 1: that that I've noticed, and I think I think I'm

1625
01:22:50,080 --> 01:22:52,080
Speaker 1: pretty sure this has happened to talk people are talking

1626
01:22:52,080 --> 01:22:53,880
Speaker 1: about that occupies it. Like the first thing if you

1627
01:22:53,920 --> 01:22:55,479
Speaker 1: have a group of people who are just they're the

1628
01:22:55,479 --> 01:22:57,000
Speaker 1: first thing the cops trying to do is a point

1629
01:22:57,000 --> 01:22:59,439
Speaker 1: a leader so that they have one person that they

1630
01:22:59,479 --> 01:23:01,120
Speaker 1: can do to with this this and this lets them

1631
01:23:01,120 --> 01:23:02,680
Speaker 1: sort of this this sort of like access point to

1632
01:23:02,720 --> 01:23:04,800
Speaker 1: which they sort of break like the demands of the

1633
01:23:04,840 --> 01:23:06,760
Speaker 1: crowd is that they find one person they point in

1634
01:23:06,800 --> 01:23:08,280
Speaker 1: the lead and they get that person to sort of

1635
01:23:08,320 --> 01:23:11,479
Speaker 1: like be the liaison. My favorite Occupied joke. I gotta

1636
01:23:11,479 --> 01:23:13,320
Speaker 1: give respect to Occupy Denver. This is the best joke

1637
01:23:13,400 --> 01:23:15,880
Speaker 1: that ever happened. And Occupy they announced the beginning of

1638
01:23:15,880 --> 01:23:18,240
Speaker 1: one week on Friday, we are going to announce our leader.

1639
01:23:18,280 --> 01:23:20,639
Speaker 1: Occupy Denver has chosen a leader, and the whole movement

1640
01:23:20,760 --> 01:23:23,040
Speaker 1: got so upset and everyone was so angry. I was like,

1641
01:23:23,080 --> 01:23:25,080
Speaker 1: what the fuck? And like they had this like big

1642
01:23:25,120 --> 01:23:28,920
Speaker 1: press conference and their leader was a Golden Retriever. It

1643
01:23:29,040 --> 01:23:33,360
Speaker 1: was like a who knows to Occupied Denver? Whoever organ

1644
01:23:33,479 --> 01:23:37,080
Speaker 1: is that prank? I love you, I guess. Yeah, speaking

1645
01:23:37,120 --> 01:23:39,160
Speaker 1: thinking of kudos to a place. The last thing I

1646
01:23:39,200 --> 01:23:43,880
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about was the giant like port occupation

1647
01:23:44,160 --> 01:23:47,719
Speaker 1: strike thing in Oakland, because I mean that that wasn't

1648
01:23:47,720 --> 01:23:49,600
Speaker 1: the first time people had done it, Like I know,

1649
01:23:49,640 --> 01:23:51,720
Speaker 1: I know during the anti war movements even do like

1650
01:23:51,720 --> 01:23:54,479
Speaker 1: two eight there's one of people trying to occupy ports.

1651
01:23:55,400 --> 01:23:59,280
Speaker 1: But in Oakland they like did it. They really they

1652
01:23:59,280 --> 01:24:02,120
Speaker 1: put like footy I was in people like in this

1653
01:24:02,640 --> 01:24:05,360
Speaker 1: in the Port of Oakland and they shut it down. Yeah,

1654
01:24:05,560 --> 01:24:08,559
Speaker 1: And I think that was like that was one of

1655
01:24:08,600 --> 01:24:11,200
Speaker 1: the things. One of the stories kind of been lost

1656
01:24:11,360 --> 01:24:15,160
Speaker 1: from this because like, you know, like that was the point.

1657
01:24:15,200 --> 01:24:16,960
Speaker 1: Like so like I know people in Oakland who like

1658
01:24:17,400 --> 01:24:21,080
Speaker 1: they got like drugged, repeatedly drugged by police informants because

1659
01:24:22,040 --> 01:24:25,000
Speaker 1: particularly Oakland. Also Oakland is also way the walking by

1660
01:24:25,000 --> 01:24:27,880
Speaker 1: Oakland bood is way way less white than any other movements,

1661
01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:31,760
Speaker 1: and they get like the kind of police oppression they

1662
01:24:31,800 --> 01:24:37,040
Speaker 1: get is like it's just like yeah, you know again

1663
01:24:37,080 --> 01:24:41,639
Speaker 1: like people people being repeatedly drugged by informants, like cops

1664
01:24:41,640 --> 01:24:44,640
Speaker 1: shooting people in the face, like the you know, you

1665
01:24:44,680 --> 01:24:46,200
Speaker 1: have you have the black list, you have all this stuff.

1666
01:24:46,240 --> 01:24:49,639
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, part of it, yeah, yeah,

1667
01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:51,559
Speaker 1: And I think part of it is because part of

1668
01:24:51,560 --> 01:24:53,240
Speaker 1: it's because it's a bunch of non white people and

1669
01:24:53,400 --> 01:24:56,719
Speaker 1: that's you know, that's just what happens. But I think

1670
01:24:56,840 --> 01:25:00,280
Speaker 1: another part of it was also that there was this

1671
01:25:00,560 --> 01:25:06,400
Speaker 1: fear about Yes, so so the reason the port strike

1672
01:25:06,560 --> 01:25:09,479
Speaker 1: is able to happen is because there's sort of there's

1673
01:25:09,520 --> 01:25:12,200
Speaker 1: a complicated game here where the people like sort of

1674
01:25:12,200 --> 01:25:16,640
Speaker 1: got involved in in like longshoreman union politics. But that

1675
01:25:16,880 --> 01:25:20,080
Speaker 1: sort of like fusion of of give all the people

1676
01:25:20,080 --> 01:25:22,880
Speaker 1: in the street and then they start showing down ports

1677
01:25:22,880 --> 01:25:27,240
Speaker 1: and that, like like the cops like lose their minds

1678
01:25:27,280 --> 01:25:30,760
Speaker 1: over that. Like that that I think was like extremely

1679
01:25:30,880 --> 01:25:35,639
Speaker 1: scary to them in a lot of wiz. Yeah, I mean,

1680
01:25:35,760 --> 01:25:37,720
Speaker 1: you know, I would you know, I would defer to

1681
01:25:37,760 --> 01:25:39,680
Speaker 1: anyone from Oakland who was who was there during that.

1682
01:25:39,720 --> 01:25:41,240
Speaker 1: You know, I have comrades there, I've talked to you

1683
01:25:41,240 --> 01:25:43,519
Speaker 1: have read about it since. But you know, I think

1684
01:25:43,640 --> 01:25:46,120
Speaker 1: I think part of the heightened police oppression and the

1685
01:25:46,160 --> 01:25:49,400
Speaker 1: heightened power of the Oakland occupied Oakland folks was Oscar

1686
01:25:49,439 --> 01:25:51,479
Speaker 1: Grant rebellion. Like I mentioned the two thousand nine which

1687
01:25:51,479 --> 01:25:53,000
Speaker 1: had happened, which had you know, I have been a

1688
01:25:53,000 --> 01:25:55,120
Speaker 1: few hundred people, but it had been really rowdy. They'd

1689
01:25:55,160 --> 01:25:57,960
Speaker 1: been like looting and smashing. Um maybe maybe more than

1690
01:25:57,960 --> 01:25:59,479
Speaker 1: a few hundred, maybe near a thousand people on the

1691
01:25:59,520 --> 01:26:02,719
Speaker 1: big on the first snight. UM. And you also obviously

1692
01:26:02,760 --> 01:26:04,720
Speaker 1: have the legacy of the Black Panthers in Oakland. So

1693
01:26:04,840 --> 01:26:06,880
Speaker 1: you know, the Black Panther Party, you know, forms in

1694
01:26:06,920 --> 01:26:09,080
Speaker 1: Oakland at last, in Oakland a decade and a half

1695
01:26:09,120 --> 01:26:11,400
Speaker 1: longer than it does anywhere else in the country. UM.

1696
01:26:11,439 --> 01:26:13,120
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of like and you also have

1697
01:26:13,240 --> 01:26:15,960
Speaker 1: the really really intense textrification in the Bay that's happening.

1698
01:26:16,200 --> 01:26:18,600
Speaker 1: So there's an incredible political and economic pressure in the

1699
01:26:18,600 --> 01:26:23,080
Speaker 1: Bay combined with this history of radicalism that really you know, um,

1700
01:26:23,120 --> 01:26:25,559
Speaker 1: but yeah, I think also the other thing that's really interesting.

1701
01:26:25,720 --> 01:26:27,360
Speaker 1: I think what you said, like you you put your

1702
01:26:27,520 --> 01:26:29,080
Speaker 1: you know, you hit the nail on the head, Like

1703
01:26:29,360 --> 01:26:31,280
Speaker 1: it was largely like it was terrifying that it was

1704
01:26:31,320 --> 01:26:33,680
Speaker 1: the most effective direct action in the occupy movement, I

1705
01:26:33,720 --> 01:26:35,880
Speaker 1: think was that port shutdown. I think, without a doubt,

1706
01:26:35,880 --> 01:26:39,640
Speaker 1: like the biggest mass direct action that that occupy achieved, Um,

1707
01:26:39,960 --> 01:26:41,680
Speaker 1: was that November twelve? Was that was that with the

1708
01:26:41,720 --> 01:26:44,160
Speaker 1: data that I don't remember near the end of the

1709
01:26:44,560 --> 01:26:47,720
Speaker 1: near the end of the cycle. Um. And I think

1710
01:26:47,760 --> 01:26:51,800
Speaker 1: like the other thing about um about that though, that

1711
01:26:51,800 --> 01:26:54,120
Speaker 1: that was very similar to the altar globalization movement, right

1712
01:26:54,120 --> 01:26:56,320
Speaker 1: where the unions had sort of teamed up with you know,

1713
01:26:56,360 --> 01:26:58,240
Speaker 1: like in Seattle there's a lot of trade unions on

1714
01:26:58,240 --> 01:27:00,360
Speaker 1: the ground next to all the black blocks, right, um.

1715
01:27:00,360 --> 01:27:04,080
Speaker 1: And I think like that that image, Um, I think

1716
01:27:04,160 --> 01:27:06,920
Speaker 1: really it's really interesting. It really terrified the police, and

1717
01:27:06,960 --> 01:27:09,600
Speaker 1: it really it could be it could have been a

1718
01:27:09,720 --> 01:27:13,120
Speaker 1: vector for a certain kind of like labor first politics

1719
01:27:13,320 --> 01:27:15,360
Speaker 1: that could have emerged, but instead, like the labor first

1720
01:27:15,400 --> 01:27:17,720
Speaker 1: people have turned out to be all electoralists. Yeah, it

1721
01:27:17,760 --> 01:27:19,719
Speaker 1: seems that that's sort of a weird blip that hasn't

1722
01:27:19,760 --> 01:27:23,080
Speaker 1: really returned. Um. Yeah. And it's interesting too because like

1723
01:27:23,120 --> 01:27:26,000
Speaker 1: because now like you know, like the like the the

1724
01:27:26,320 --> 01:27:28,439
Speaker 1: a f l C. I oh, just like you know

1725
01:27:28,880 --> 01:27:30,679
Speaker 1: a f l C A is like no cop unions great,

1726
01:27:30,680 --> 01:27:32,200
Speaker 1: And it's like there's this there's this sort of like

1727
01:27:32,680 --> 01:27:37,280
Speaker 1: split between the street movements and organized labor because they're

1728
01:27:38,920 --> 01:27:41,960
Speaker 1: off doing like electoral stuff and like cops ship, which

1729
01:27:41,960 --> 01:27:45,160
Speaker 1: is this sort of yeah, and and and and have

1730
01:27:45,240 --> 01:27:47,280
Speaker 1: been now for for seven decades, you know, I mean,

1731
01:27:47,360 --> 01:27:50,320
Speaker 1: I mean really like like the buying off of the

1732
01:27:50,360 --> 01:27:52,600
Speaker 1: unions and the New Deal, um, you know, with some

1733
01:27:52,680 --> 01:27:55,120
Speaker 1: brief you know, with brief windows of like wildcat action

1734
01:27:55,120 --> 01:27:57,760
Speaker 1: in the seventies and the nineties. Um, the buying off

1735
01:27:57,760 --> 01:27:59,799
Speaker 1: of the unions has has never really gone away. Industrial

1736
01:27:59,880 --> 01:28:01,679
Speaker 1: un is UM in the US has has long been

1737
01:28:01,840 --> 01:28:05,080
Speaker 1: and in and in Europe everywhere where everywhere where those

1738
01:28:05,120 --> 01:28:07,519
Speaker 1: developed in the early twenty century, that labor movement UM,

1739
01:28:07,560 --> 01:28:10,240
Speaker 1: they've really been successfully bought off. And I don't think

1740
01:28:11,560 --> 01:28:14,360
Speaker 1: there is. Uh. I don't think that those unions are

1741
01:28:14,400 --> 01:28:17,400
Speaker 1: like a big easy route to power anymore than I don't.

1742
01:28:17,439 --> 01:28:19,759
Speaker 1: I don't like I think they're going to overthrow the government.

1743
01:28:19,760 --> 01:28:21,240
Speaker 1: I mean, but I will say, yeah, this is this

1744
01:28:21,280 --> 01:28:23,280
Speaker 1: is my my also my the thing that I plug

1745
01:28:23,360 --> 01:28:24,720
Speaker 1: every time is at the a f l C. I

1746
01:28:24,800 --> 01:28:27,600
Speaker 1: O over through a end a like yeah, like like

1747
01:28:27,640 --> 01:28:30,360
Speaker 1: they they they there are people on the ground were

1748
01:28:30,400 --> 01:28:34,240
Speaker 1: like directing like like we're directing a bunch of the

1749
01:28:34,240 --> 01:28:36,120
Speaker 1: anti a end a stuff and it's like and it

1750
01:28:36,200 --> 01:28:37,920
Speaker 1: was the and it was the union bureaucracy is like

1751
01:28:37,960 --> 01:28:40,280
Speaker 1: more recently in two thousand one, who are in the

1752
01:28:40,320 --> 01:28:44,599
Speaker 1: wake of September eleventh, who transformed the anti globalization rhetoric

1753
01:28:44,640 --> 01:28:47,679
Speaker 1: into buy American, which it turned out was often buying

1754
01:28:47,720 --> 01:28:50,559
Speaker 1: prison made materials. But like that was that was the union,

1755
01:28:50,600 --> 01:28:54,479
Speaker 1: the union sort of um defanged defanged alter globalization into

1756
01:28:54,479 --> 01:28:56,360
Speaker 1: buy American. And there's there's a thing, like there's a

1757
01:28:56,360 --> 01:28:59,920
Speaker 1: whole another story there about how that like how anti

1758
01:29:00,080 --> 01:29:04,080
Speaker 1: orbalization turned from like you know, the Zapatistas too, like

1759
01:29:04,320 --> 01:29:09,360
Speaker 1: Trump which is incredibly depressing and yeah, goes goes through

1760
01:29:09,400 --> 01:29:13,800
Speaker 1: this line of sort of like the replacement of internationalism

1761
01:29:13,800 --> 01:29:16,759
Speaker 1: with nationalism and that kind of like by local stuff

1762
01:29:16,800 --> 01:29:22,439
Speaker 1: and the fact that like these people sort of just

1763
01:29:23,040 --> 01:29:26,400
Speaker 1: decided that, you know personally after Seattle part steption at eleven,

1764
01:29:26,439 --> 01:29:28,880
Speaker 1: they're just like we're not doing direct action again. And

1765
01:29:28,880 --> 01:29:32,160
Speaker 1: in Oakland's like Oaklands like like that. That's like that's

1766
01:29:32,160 --> 01:29:35,160
Speaker 1: like the one big exception to that was that moment

1767
01:29:35,320 --> 01:29:37,719
Speaker 1: and then it just kind of just has never happened again.

1768
01:29:38,680 --> 01:29:41,000
Speaker 1: And that's partially because that that union that I LW

1769
01:29:41,360 --> 01:29:43,680
Speaker 1: is I l W I think out there is on

1770
01:29:43,720 --> 01:29:46,160
Speaker 1: the on the poorts that was a particularly like radical

1771
01:29:46,280 --> 01:29:49,080
Speaker 1: union that had happened in Wildcats like and and was

1772
01:29:49,160 --> 01:29:51,280
Speaker 1: like like more democratic than any of the many of

1773
01:29:51,280 --> 01:29:53,640
Speaker 1: the other unions and in in those those hips. But

1774
01:29:53,760 --> 01:29:56,679
Speaker 1: uh yeah, but that's that's also like a big story

1775
01:29:56,720 --> 01:30:00,280
Speaker 1: for another time. The connotation of global anti global nation

1776
01:30:00,360 --> 01:30:04,880
Speaker 1: over the twenty year period. Yeah, you know, it's just

1777
01:30:04,960 --> 01:30:06,679
Speaker 1: kind of corny, but like what what can we actually

1778
01:30:06,800 --> 01:30:10,160
Speaker 1: learn from what happened there, what went wrong and sort

1779
01:30:10,200 --> 01:30:17,120
Speaker 1: of what the limits of it was. Yeah, Okay, So

1780
01:30:17,160 --> 01:30:20,000
Speaker 1: the legacy, So I think one legacy that um, the

1781
01:30:20,080 --> 01:30:22,479
Speaker 1: legacy that is most widely accepted and known, which we

1782
01:30:22,520 --> 01:30:26,720
Speaker 1: can go over quickly, is that it reintroduced class discourse,

1783
01:30:27,200 --> 01:30:30,000
Speaker 1: largely into the popular you know, the n which is

1784
01:30:30,040 --> 01:30:32,840
Speaker 1: a very very bad class politics. But like, you know,

1785
01:30:32,880 --> 01:30:35,800
Speaker 1: like UM, like the you know, it reintroduced some of

1786
01:30:35,800 --> 01:30:39,960
Speaker 1: that sort of class war class war discourse and UM

1787
01:30:40,040 --> 01:30:42,920
Speaker 1: and I think more important than that, but but not

1788
01:30:43,040 --> 01:30:48,080
Speaker 1: that dissimilar. It UM reintroduced um street politics into the US. UM.

1789
01:30:48,120 --> 01:30:51,440
Speaker 1: I think part of the legacy that gets forgotten UM

1790
01:30:51,479 --> 01:30:54,960
Speaker 1: because like the general the global nous of the wave

1791
01:30:55,040 --> 01:30:59,280
Speaker 1: gets forgotten as well. Like is that when when ship

1792
01:30:59,280 --> 01:31:03,120
Speaker 1: pops off in New York, everyone in the world knows,

1793
01:31:03,439 --> 01:31:05,720
Speaker 1: or at least they did then, right, because America had

1794
01:31:05,760 --> 01:31:10,760
Speaker 1: been so successfully you know, appeased politically for so long

1795
01:31:11,000 --> 01:31:14,560
Speaker 1: that I think that when occupy popped off, UM in

1796
01:31:15,200 --> 01:31:17,519
Speaker 1: rather it really like signals to the world, like the

1797
01:31:17,560 --> 01:31:19,000
Speaker 1: rest of the world like, oh, like this is real,

1798
01:31:19,120 --> 01:31:20,679
Speaker 1: like even in the you know, even in the center

1799
01:31:20,720 --> 01:31:24,000
Speaker 1: of empire, like like people are rising up. Um. It's

1800
01:31:24,040 --> 01:31:25,960
Speaker 1: hard to remember and it's weird, but like there was

1801
01:31:26,000 --> 01:31:29,160
Speaker 1: an occupy in uh New York, in a UK, there

1802
01:31:29,200 --> 01:31:30,760
Speaker 1: was one in Tel Aviv. There was actually kind of

1803
01:31:30,760 --> 01:31:34,000
Speaker 1: like a pro Palestinian occupy in Tel Aviv briefly UM.

1804
01:31:34,400 --> 01:31:36,920
Speaker 1: And you know, I think maybe the most powerful sort

1805
01:31:36,920 --> 01:31:40,479
Speaker 1: of immediate tactical UM offshoot of occupied was occupyed Nigeria

1806
01:31:41,000 --> 01:31:44,639
Speaker 1: UM in the first weeks of UM when President good

1807
01:31:44,720 --> 01:31:49,280
Speaker 1: Luck Jonathan um took took the fuel subsidies away, and

1808
01:31:49,280 --> 01:31:51,439
Speaker 1: they were like sort of two weeks of really intense

1809
01:31:51,479 --> 01:31:55,000
Speaker 1: revolutionary rioting UM in in Nigeria that that then called

1810
01:31:55,040 --> 01:31:57,280
Speaker 1: themselves occupy as a way of being legible. It's the

1811
01:31:57,320 --> 01:32:02,120
Speaker 1: rest of the world, UM. I think the other legacies

1812
01:32:02,160 --> 01:32:04,839
Speaker 1: though that are that are a little more sort of subtle,

1813
01:32:05,040 --> 01:32:07,280
Speaker 1: I guess is like that a lot of folks still

1814
01:32:07,280 --> 01:32:09,519
Speaker 1: in the struggle now, Like I will still meet people,

1815
01:32:09,760 --> 01:32:11,840
Speaker 1: you know, my age who like I've met I have

1816
01:32:11,880 --> 01:32:13,680
Speaker 1: two comrades here in Philly who I didn't know at

1817
01:32:13,680 --> 01:32:15,479
Speaker 1: the time, but who were organizing in New York right,

1818
01:32:15,600 --> 01:32:17,560
Speaker 1: Like we probably hung out in rooms together, like we

1819
01:32:17,680 --> 01:32:19,840
Speaker 1: probably like we were probably in the same spaces. But

1820
01:32:19,920 --> 01:32:21,960
Speaker 1: like so like a lot of folks, you know it

1821
01:32:23,120 --> 01:32:25,640
Speaker 1: each of these waves that has come has left, you know,

1822
01:32:25,680 --> 01:32:28,120
Speaker 1: some people leave, some people swing right, but like there's

1823
01:32:28,120 --> 01:32:30,680
Speaker 1: a residue of folks that like becomes the base for

1824
01:32:30,720 --> 01:32:33,320
Speaker 1: the next movement. And I think like occupy really did

1825
01:32:33,400 --> 01:32:35,960
Speaker 1: provide a lot of people in a way that the

1826
01:32:36,000 --> 01:32:40,800
Speaker 1: gap between alter globalization and occupy didn't produce nearly as

1827
01:32:40,880 --> 01:32:42,800
Speaker 1: large a contingent of people, although of course there are

1828
01:32:42,800 --> 01:32:46,920
Speaker 1: those people, um. But I think also like really importantly

1829
01:32:47,160 --> 01:32:50,200
Speaker 1: like the tactics of occupy. Like one of the things

1830
01:32:50,200 --> 01:32:52,599
Speaker 1: that was incredible about the George Floyd uprising was that

1831
01:32:52,920 --> 01:32:56,080
Speaker 1: every tactic that we um have tried in the last

1832
01:32:56,080 --> 01:32:58,840
Speaker 1: ten years re emerged. Right. There was a prison strike,

1833
01:32:59,120 --> 01:33:03,639
Speaker 1: there were indigenous blockades, there were me Too style callouts UM,

1834
01:33:03,640 --> 01:33:06,240
Speaker 1: which of course developed out of um punk and queer

1835
01:33:06,240 --> 01:33:07,960
Speaker 1: scene callouts that have been going on for a decade.

1836
01:33:08,120 --> 01:33:10,639
Speaker 1: But there were occupations, right. You had the chairs in Seattle,

1837
01:33:11,040 --> 01:33:15,200
Speaker 1: which we can you know, well, well what we're yeah,

1838
01:33:15,400 --> 01:33:17,800
Speaker 1: we will get to that one day in any case,

1839
01:33:17,880 --> 01:33:20,519
Speaker 1: in any case, like I think like that that has

1840
01:33:20,560 --> 01:33:24,320
Speaker 1: remained in the repertoire of poltarian struggle, like as a

1841
01:33:24,360 --> 01:33:27,280
Speaker 1: result of of occupy and and and if it had

1842
01:33:27,320 --> 01:33:29,200
Speaker 1: just been occupied, maybe it wouldn't as a result of

1843
01:33:29,240 --> 01:33:32,559
Speaker 1: the global movement of the squares, which obviously goes until

1844
01:33:32,680 --> 01:33:37,439
Speaker 1: Terrier Squareen and Turkey. I think it's probably the Gezi

1845
01:33:37,520 --> 01:33:40,360
Speaker 1: Park in a Turkey, um, which is like the last

1846
01:33:40,400 --> 01:33:43,080
Speaker 1: big moment of the squares really um, But that five

1847
01:33:43,160 --> 01:33:46,240
Speaker 1: year wave, like it was really really important, um globally,

1848
01:33:46,560 --> 01:33:49,920
Speaker 1: really really important locally as well, UM in terms of

1849
01:33:49,960 --> 01:33:52,679
Speaker 1: building activists, building a class of of well, I don't

1850
01:33:52,720 --> 01:33:55,160
Speaker 1: you know whatever, building revolutionaries, whatever you want to call them,

1851
01:33:55,360 --> 01:33:57,360
Speaker 1: the good version of the thing, not the bad version.

1852
01:33:57,880 --> 01:34:01,080
Speaker 1: You produced a lot of them, um and um. And

1853
01:34:01,160 --> 01:34:03,640
Speaker 1: I think like in terms of its limits and like

1854
01:34:03,680 --> 01:34:06,360
Speaker 1: what we can learn from it, Like, I think I

1855
01:34:06,400 --> 01:34:08,759
Speaker 1: think taking the police more seriously it was really important.

1856
01:34:08,800 --> 01:34:10,560
Speaker 1: I think taking police violence more seriously it was a

1857
01:34:10,600 --> 01:34:15,040
Speaker 1: really important legacy of occupy, I think, Um, I think

1858
01:34:15,240 --> 01:34:19,680
Speaker 1: pushing towards the limit of what total democracy meant a

1859
01:34:19,680 --> 01:34:21,840
Speaker 1: lot of people and Occupy remember that like a lot

1860
01:34:21,880 --> 01:34:24,280
Speaker 1: of Ron Paul people are like weirdo like and the

1861
01:34:24,280 --> 01:34:27,320
Speaker 1: Fed cranks and like right wingers like spoken Occupy and

1862
01:34:27,320 --> 01:34:31,400
Speaker 1: like that. That that total open populism of of Occupy

1863
01:34:31,520 --> 01:34:34,960
Speaker 1: I think was both probably its greatest strength and its

1864
01:34:35,000 --> 01:34:37,400
Speaker 1: ultimate limit, right, which was that like it was never

1865
01:34:37,439 --> 01:34:40,200
Speaker 1: going to be able to really like sharpen itself into

1866
01:34:40,200 --> 01:34:41,960
Speaker 1: the into the knife and it wanted to be to

1867
01:34:42,080 --> 01:34:45,920
Speaker 1: like really change the face of global capital or whatever. Um,

1868
01:34:45,960 --> 01:34:49,760
Speaker 1: because of because there were so many white, yeah, middle

1869
01:34:49,760 --> 01:34:52,640
Speaker 1: class and like like a bunch of the like a

1870
01:34:52,640 --> 01:34:54,719
Speaker 1: lot of the like the current for right media people

1871
01:34:54,720 --> 01:34:57,240
Speaker 1: came out it like Center Fairbanks was like an occupy

1872
01:34:57,320 --> 01:35:02,840
Speaker 1: streamer Spool, Yeah, you're welcome. For Tim Poole UMO was

1873
01:35:02,880 --> 01:35:05,439
Speaker 1: filming on the last day, a bunch of us um

1874
01:35:05,479 --> 01:35:08,840
Speaker 1: doing some things, and Tim Pool did not manage to

1875
01:35:08,880 --> 01:35:11,920
Speaker 1: continue filming, is all I'll say. And after that is

1876
01:35:11,960 --> 01:35:18,759
Speaker 1: when he started swinging right, So you're welcome over. Um anyway, Sorry,

1877
01:35:18,760 --> 01:35:20,800
Speaker 1: that guy is a fucking asshole. He was an asshole then. Though.

1878
01:35:20,880 --> 01:35:22,120
Speaker 1: I think what's important to know is that a lot

1879
01:35:22,120 --> 01:35:24,360
Speaker 1: of these people were suss as hell back then to

1880
01:35:24,520 --> 01:35:27,479
Speaker 1: occupy folks, like they were around and occupy because of

1881
01:35:27,479 --> 01:35:30,040
Speaker 1: the nature of occupy, like but like they were we

1882
01:35:30,120 --> 01:35:31,920
Speaker 1: already didn't like them, you know, like a lot of

1883
01:35:31,920 --> 01:35:35,720
Speaker 1: these people were already unpopular, were already disliked in the movement. Um.

1884
01:35:35,800 --> 01:35:40,280
Speaker 1: So yeah, um, but yeah, I think I think so,

1885
01:35:40,320 --> 01:35:43,599
Speaker 1: I think you know, there is there there are all

1886
01:35:43,640 --> 01:35:48,880
Speaker 1: these different legacies um from it that I think, um, Ultimately,

1887
01:35:49,120 --> 01:35:52,559
Speaker 1: the legacy things that emerged are much more important than occupy. Um.

1888
01:35:52,600 --> 01:35:54,080
Speaker 1: I think, you know, one of the things about it

1889
01:35:54,120 --> 01:35:56,680
Speaker 1: was that it really was just like the reemergence of

1890
01:35:56,680 --> 01:36:00,080
Speaker 1: street politics, and like, like as the re emergence of

1891
01:36:00,120 --> 01:36:03,360
Speaker 1: street politics, like it was pretty limited, and it was

1892
01:36:03,439 --> 01:36:07,800
Speaker 1: not that effective at changing things, um. And also it

1893
01:36:07,840 --> 01:36:10,040
Speaker 1: was incredibly effective at leading to those last decades of

1894
01:36:10,040 --> 01:36:12,640
Speaker 1: struggle in the US. And I think you can't, you know,

1895
01:36:12,680 --> 01:36:15,639
Speaker 1: I think there's a tendency to want to judge movements

1896
01:36:15,720 --> 01:36:21,160
Speaker 1: by the immediate results that they produce, you know. Um.

1897
01:36:21,320 --> 01:36:23,640
Speaker 1: And like, you know, I think was it is? Am

1898
01:36:23,640 --> 01:36:25,519
Speaker 1: I about to quote now? I think I am? Was it?

1899
01:36:25,640 --> 01:36:27,439
Speaker 1: Like when when he gets asked, you know, what was

1900
01:36:27,479 --> 01:36:30,080
Speaker 1: the what was the you know, in in the twentieth

1901
01:36:30,080 --> 01:36:32,439
Speaker 1: anniversary of the Chinese Revolution, he gets asked, like what

1902
01:36:32,520 --> 01:36:36,120
Speaker 1: was the what was the outcome of the Chinese Revolution?

1903
01:36:36,160 --> 01:36:38,000
Speaker 1: He says, it's too early to tell, right, Like, I think,

1904
01:36:38,040 --> 01:36:40,479
Speaker 1: like that maybe that's I don't remember who that is.

1905
01:36:41,320 --> 01:36:44,960
Speaker 1: They were right, Yeah, they were right. A lot more

1906
01:36:45,000 --> 01:36:47,920
Speaker 1: people died than what we thought. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they

1907
01:36:48,560 --> 01:36:54,360
Speaker 1: successfully transitioned to capitalism and they yeah, yeah, it was yeah, so, um,

1908
01:36:54,400 --> 01:36:56,280
Speaker 1: so what was the result of occupy. It's too early

1909
01:36:56,320 --> 01:36:59,760
Speaker 1: to tell, um, but I think like I also think

1910
01:36:59,800 --> 01:37:02,080
Speaker 1: like the things that we've talked about here um, where

1911
01:37:02,080 --> 01:37:04,560
Speaker 1: we're core components of what what why it matters. I

1912
01:37:04,840 --> 01:37:06,639
Speaker 1: do think one other kind of effect that it's had.

1913
01:37:06,680 --> 01:37:08,360
Speaker 1: And It's hard for me to gauge this because I've

1914
01:37:08,360 --> 01:37:12,320
Speaker 1: only been around post occupy, but I feel like now

1915
01:37:12,360 --> 01:37:16,480
Speaker 1: when people try to get stuff started, they really fall

1916
01:37:16,600 --> 01:37:19,680
Speaker 1: kind of into an occupy mindset where they're like, the

1917
01:37:19,720 --> 01:37:23,519
Speaker 1: only way to make this successful is to hold this space.

1918
01:37:23,840 --> 01:37:26,040
Speaker 1: And I think that is really a default way that

1919
01:37:26,320 --> 01:37:29,480
Speaker 1: even more experience, like both experienced organizers and new organizers

1920
01:37:29,880 --> 01:37:31,960
Speaker 1: really kind of keep you saying the word default. It's

1921
01:37:31,960 --> 01:37:34,120
Speaker 1: because like that's just that's just really like what they

1922
01:37:34,200 --> 01:37:36,240
Speaker 1: go into. You saw this in a lot of different

1923
01:37:36,240 --> 01:37:38,120
Speaker 1: cities last year. Really they like people trying to set

1924
01:37:38,160 --> 01:37:41,080
Speaker 1: up spaces to hold um. A lot of them did

1925
01:37:41,080 --> 01:37:43,680
Speaker 1: not work, you know a lot of them. A lot

1926
01:37:43,720 --> 01:37:45,160
Speaker 1: of them were like, oh, yeah, we're trying to try

1927
01:37:45,200 --> 01:37:47,519
Speaker 1: to hold the space for like an hour, because then

1928
01:37:47,560 --> 01:37:49,760
Speaker 1: the cops pushed us out right and you know, in

1929
01:37:49,800 --> 01:37:52,320
Speaker 1: a place like the chairs they got extended out a

1930
01:37:52,400 --> 01:37:55,280
Speaker 1: bit longer that Chad has had its own problems. Um

1931
01:37:55,520 --> 01:37:58,120
Speaker 1: and other cities in the Pacific Northwest. This happened a city,

1932
01:37:59,479 --> 01:38:01,680
Speaker 1: it happened. It happened a lot of places. I mean,

1933
01:38:01,720 --> 01:38:03,920
Speaker 1: like I think George Floyd Square is maybe one of

1934
01:38:03,920 --> 01:38:08,000
Speaker 1: the more honestly successful ones, um for how they were

1935
01:38:08,040 --> 01:38:11,760
Speaker 1: able to actually kind of keep police away, and they

1936
01:38:11,800 --> 01:38:14,800
Speaker 1: did they avoided turning it into this big media thing

1937
01:38:14,880 --> 01:38:18,760
Speaker 1: like like with the Chaz did um. And I don't know,

1938
01:38:19,040 --> 01:38:22,680
Speaker 1: I think I grew very I saw a lot of

1939
01:38:22,680 --> 01:38:25,280
Speaker 1: people kind of grow kind of frustrated with this like

1940
01:38:25,360 --> 01:38:29,280
Speaker 1: kind of occupy mentality because what that kind of results

1941
01:38:29,280 --> 01:38:32,840
Speaker 1: in is people just setting up outside of a police

1942
01:38:32,880 --> 01:38:35,479
Speaker 1: headquarters and trying to stay there for as long as possible,

1943
01:38:35,520 --> 01:38:38,120
Speaker 1: which is like that's not doing anything, You're just kind

1944
01:38:38,160 --> 01:38:41,040
Speaker 1: of waiting to get beat up. Um. Yeah. Yeah, but

1945
01:38:41,080 --> 01:38:43,439
Speaker 1: it's complicated though, right, Like in defense of that tactic,

1946
01:38:44,240 --> 01:38:46,559
Speaker 1: like I think like like that was also very color.

1947
01:38:46,640 --> 01:38:49,000
Speaker 1: That was also very core to Ferguson. Right, they held

1948
01:38:49,040 --> 01:38:51,559
Speaker 1: West Florescence for a week and a half. Now, they

1949
01:38:51,560 --> 01:38:53,360
Speaker 1: did it much. They didn't do it by setting up

1950
01:38:53,360 --> 01:38:55,559
Speaker 1: tents and sitting there. Um. And also like you know,

1951
01:38:55,640 --> 01:38:57,479
Speaker 1: like like a thing that gets forgotten a lot in

1952
01:38:57,520 --> 01:38:59,280
Speaker 1: the lot in the histories. You know, Occupy Ice it

1953
01:38:59,280 --> 01:39:01,400
Speaker 1: was pretty smile. I was big here in Philly, it

1954
01:39:01,479 --> 01:39:03,840
Speaker 1: was it was massive here in Portland. Yeah. Yeah. So

1955
01:39:03,960 --> 01:39:06,639
Speaker 1: so like there were moments when that tactic really does

1956
01:39:06,800 --> 01:39:08,800
Speaker 1: like it's important to have a space to meet in,

1957
01:39:08,840 --> 01:39:10,599
Speaker 1: and I think we did learn that, but I also

1958
01:39:10,640 --> 01:39:13,479
Speaker 1: agree that it has become like any tactic that works

1959
01:39:13,520 --> 01:39:16,559
Speaker 1: once it becomes a fetish, right. Yeah, it's always trying

1960
01:39:16,560 --> 01:39:19,599
Speaker 1: to balance space because like you know, the two big

1961
01:39:19,680 --> 01:39:21,960
Speaker 1: things that have happened the past ten years, it's occupying

1962
01:39:22,040 --> 01:39:25,000
Speaker 1: Hong Kong. So people try to balance these two kind

1963
01:39:25,040 --> 01:39:28,920
Speaker 1: of almost opposing things like hold this space and be water.

1964
01:39:29,040 --> 01:39:31,080
Speaker 1: That's kind of the two things that people yell at

1965
01:39:31,080 --> 01:39:33,280
Speaker 1: the street back and forth, and no one really knows

1966
01:39:33,320 --> 01:39:36,080
Speaker 1: what to do because we're just yelling slogans and and

1967
01:39:36,280 --> 01:39:39,880
Speaker 1: and I they're saying about this. So they're like the

1968
01:39:39,960 --> 01:39:42,160
Speaker 1: one time the people in Hong Kong got pinned down

1969
01:39:42,400 --> 01:39:44,920
Speaker 1: when when they had to they had in versity siege,

1970
01:39:44,960 --> 01:39:47,439
Speaker 1: it was a ship show, like you know what I

1971
01:39:47,479 --> 01:39:50,840
Speaker 1: was like the people in Hong Kong, like, you know, okay,

1972
01:39:50,840 --> 01:39:53,240
Speaker 1: like even when they're like they they did not have

1973
01:39:53,479 --> 01:39:56,280
Speaker 1: by by by the time you're getting to the sort

1974
01:39:56,320 --> 01:39:59,760
Speaker 1: of decision of the universities like that, like you know,

1975
01:39:59,840 --> 01:40:03,400
Speaker 1: like they had like Moloto they had like like Molotov workshops,

1976
01:40:03,439 --> 01:40:05,799
Speaker 1: Like there were people like standing on the roof shooting

1977
01:40:05,800 --> 01:40:07,360
Speaker 1: bows and arrows and cops and it like it just

1978
01:40:07,439 --> 01:40:10,000
Speaker 1: wasn't enough. And I mean and part partially personally, that

1979
01:40:10,000 --> 01:40:12,519
Speaker 1: has to do with the fact that, like you know,

1980
01:40:12,800 --> 01:40:15,360
Speaker 1: Hong Kong is in a uniquely bad position insofar as

1981
01:40:15,400 --> 01:40:17,680
Speaker 1: it is one city and it's like the the the

1982
01:40:17,720 --> 01:40:20,679
Speaker 1: only possible way that asssocal we've been in Hong Kong,

1983
01:40:21,360 --> 01:40:25,240
Speaker 1: like ever just doesn't get crushed by just the fact

1984
01:40:25,240 --> 01:40:27,559
Speaker 1: that they're outnumbered, like a thousand to one is if

1985
01:40:27,680 --> 01:40:31,240
Speaker 1: it spreads. But like yeah, and it became this you know,

1986
01:40:31,280 --> 01:40:35,360
Speaker 1: like that that moments like yeah that this that that

1987
01:40:35,400 --> 01:40:38,200
Speaker 1: the whole problem with with friend to hold space because

1988
01:40:38,240 --> 01:40:40,839
Speaker 1: really apparent there because even if you have an extremely

1989
01:40:40,920 --> 01:40:45,560
Speaker 1: large number of people right like like attacking one isolated

1990
01:40:45,640 --> 01:40:47,680
Speaker 1: space in mass even think the cops are really good

1991
01:40:47,680 --> 01:40:49,439
Speaker 1: at and I think they're really bad at is trying

1992
01:40:49,439 --> 01:40:52,759
Speaker 1: to deal with like you know, like five hundred people,

1993
01:40:53,160 --> 01:40:55,640
Speaker 1: like seven hundred instances of five hundred people going through

1994
01:40:55,640 --> 01:40:58,599
Speaker 1: places because it just aren't enough of them. But yeah,

1995
01:40:58,600 --> 01:41:01,639
Speaker 1: that was what was that Like the head of who

1996
01:41:01,680 --> 01:41:05,280
Speaker 1: wasn't it was a big in the in the National Police.

1997
01:41:05,280 --> 01:41:08,160
Speaker 1: In the National Police, uh you know whatever, um said

1998
01:41:08,200 --> 01:41:10,559
Speaker 1: that like we can very easily handle one march of

1999
01:41:10,560 --> 01:41:12,519
Speaker 1: ten thousand people, but we can't handle ten marches of

2000
01:41:12,600 --> 01:41:15,320
Speaker 1: one people. It was you gotta see this in Chicago,

2001
01:41:15,360 --> 01:41:16,479
Speaker 1: feel like this is this is this is how the

2002
01:41:16,520 --> 01:41:19,320
Speaker 1: police lost control of of of the miracle Mile was

2003
01:41:19,320 --> 01:41:21,599
Speaker 1: like yeah, it was just there's people everywhere for everywhere

2004
01:41:21,760 --> 01:41:25,160
Speaker 1: and yeah I don't know, yeah I know, And that's

2005
01:41:25,200 --> 01:41:26,840
Speaker 1: and that's how that's that's what you know. I mean

2006
01:41:26,880 --> 01:41:28,599
Speaker 1: certainly in Philly where it was where it was very

2007
01:41:28,680 --> 01:41:30,640
Speaker 1: very powerful. That's what the George Floyd rebellion looked like,

2008
01:41:30,720 --> 01:41:33,280
Speaker 1: was with people were everywhere in Philly, all the neighborhoods.

2009
01:41:33,439 --> 01:41:36,120
Speaker 1: You know, people didn't you know, like we were out there,

2010
01:41:36,160 --> 01:41:40,120
Speaker 1: you know whatever, um and like they're like people didn't

2011
01:41:40,160 --> 01:41:41,920
Speaker 1: know what was going on three block South, you know

2012
01:41:41,960 --> 01:41:43,519
Speaker 1: what I mean. Like it was like that, like there

2013
01:41:43,560 --> 01:41:46,639
Speaker 1: was just there were fights happening everywhere and under those conditions,

2014
01:41:46,640 --> 01:41:49,680
Speaker 1: the police can't can't, no matter how militarized they are,

2015
01:41:49,680 --> 01:41:52,960
Speaker 1: they can't act um effectively anyway they can act, they

2016
01:41:53,479 --> 01:41:57,080
Speaker 1: certainly will. They will act like pigs. Um. But but

2017
01:41:57,160 --> 01:42:00,040
Speaker 1: I think, like, yeah, so I think that that that

2018
01:42:00,200 --> 01:42:02,400
Speaker 1: sort of dispersion, But I think the other there's so

2019
01:42:02,479 --> 01:42:05,120
Speaker 1: there's I'm going to promote a really really weird o

2020
01:42:05,240 --> 01:42:11,280
Speaker 1: crank book right now twentie century like literary weirdos. Guy

2021
01:42:11,680 --> 01:42:16,839
Speaker 1: uh alias Connetti um Italian wrote this book called Crowds

2022
01:42:16,840 --> 01:42:20,040
Speaker 1: and Power, where he attempts to he attempts to describe

2023
01:42:20,080 --> 01:42:23,600
Speaker 1: the entirety of human history and anthropology in terms of crowds.

2024
01:42:23,600 --> 01:42:27,320
Speaker 1: This is obviously impossible and ridiculous. But that book has

2025
01:42:27,360 --> 01:42:31,440
Speaker 1: the best descriptions of crowd dynamics I have ever encountered anywhere.

2026
01:42:32,120 --> 01:42:34,240
Speaker 1: And I like, I like people who take big swings

2027
01:42:34,240 --> 01:42:37,120
Speaker 1: because they end up they miss miss has lots of

2028
01:42:37,160 --> 01:42:39,559
Speaker 1: interesting stuff. Um. I think that's why people like Settlers

2029
01:42:39,560 --> 01:42:41,240
Speaker 1: by Jason Kai so much. Like I think the thesis

2030
01:42:41,240 --> 01:42:43,200
Speaker 1: wasn't great, but there's so much incredible stuff in that

2031
01:42:43,240 --> 01:42:46,040
Speaker 1: book that like it works anyway. Um that having a

2032
01:42:46,080 --> 01:42:48,280
Speaker 1: really wild thesis allows you to like really like get

2033
01:42:48,320 --> 01:42:50,840
Speaker 1: into some Yeah. So anyway, one of the things that

2034
01:42:50,960 --> 01:42:54,880
Speaker 1: Connetti talks about in that book is that UM a crowd, UH,

2035
01:42:55,080 --> 01:42:57,400
Speaker 1: an open crowd, as he describes it, an open crowd

2036
01:42:58,000 --> 01:43:02,040
Speaker 1: is UM must constantly be growing and the moment it

2037
01:43:02,080 --> 01:43:05,680
Speaker 1: stops growing, it starts shrinking. Right like this, I think

2038
01:43:05,760 --> 01:43:09,720
Speaker 1: that dynamic in terms of both movement and like a

2039
01:43:09,800 --> 01:43:13,040
Speaker 1: momentary protest or riot, right is like really real, I

2040
01:43:13,080 --> 01:43:16,639
Speaker 1: can And I think one of the things that UM,

2041
01:43:16,880 --> 01:43:19,280
Speaker 1: particularly organizers are trained to do and like that that

2042
01:43:19,280 --> 01:43:21,200
Speaker 1: that we learned to do, especially in law periods, and

2043
01:43:21,200 --> 01:43:23,479
Speaker 1: we're like organizing these little you know, you know, these

2044
01:43:23,520 --> 01:43:27,439
Speaker 1: little crystallized groups of like hard cadre or whatever. Is that?

2045
01:43:27,479 --> 01:43:30,120
Speaker 1: Like you that like what we learn as organized is

2046
01:43:30,160 --> 01:43:34,040
Speaker 1: something that is defendable. But once you start defending something,

2047
01:43:34,280 --> 01:43:37,800
Speaker 1: you start losing it because we cannot take on the

2048
01:43:37,840 --> 01:43:40,920
Speaker 1: state or the police in a head on confrontation. UM.

2049
01:43:41,040 --> 01:43:43,920
Speaker 1: And this is this can be confusing because sometimes you

2050
01:43:43,920 --> 01:43:46,040
Speaker 1: can successfully defend for a few weeks, maybe even a

2051
01:43:46,040 --> 01:43:49,200
Speaker 1: few months. You can defend a space sometimes, but once

2052
01:43:49,240 --> 01:43:52,360
Speaker 1: people get really interested in the defending, then they begin

2053
01:43:52,439 --> 01:43:56,360
Speaker 1: forming bureaucracies, governments, internal policing, security forces, whatever it is,

2054
01:43:56,640 --> 01:43:59,840
Speaker 1: they start becoming the like the the they start under

2055
01:43:59,880 --> 01:44:01,639
Speaker 1: my ning the very thing that made it powerful, which

2056
01:44:01,720 --> 01:44:04,840
Speaker 1: was the sudden, rapid growth, the sudden like you know,

2057
01:44:04,880 --> 01:44:08,760
Speaker 1: like like big explosion of power and self recognition that

2058
01:44:09,080 --> 01:44:11,680
Speaker 1: comes in the beginning of movement. And I think, I

2059
01:44:11,760 --> 01:44:16,040
Speaker 1: don't think there's a way to will that problem away,

2060
01:44:16,160 --> 01:44:17,880
Speaker 1: Like I don't think we can just like think our

2061
01:44:17,920 --> 01:44:20,439
Speaker 1: way out of it, like it's just a problem. But

2062
01:44:20,520 --> 01:44:22,559
Speaker 1: I do think that like one thing that we could

2063
01:44:22,560 --> 01:44:24,680
Speaker 1: take from the experience of occupy and the experience the

2064
01:44:24,760 --> 01:44:27,640
Speaker 1: last decade is that like if you do, you know,

2065
01:44:27,720 --> 01:44:29,920
Speaker 1: consider yourself someone who wants to participate in these kind

2066
01:44:29,920 --> 01:44:31,799
Speaker 1: of movements, which is probably why you're listening to this podcast.

2067
01:44:32,200 --> 01:44:36,960
Speaker 1: Um right now, Um, don't try and defend, Like, don't

2068
01:44:36,960 --> 01:44:39,439
Speaker 1: try and defend. Like some things will need to be

2069
01:44:39,479 --> 01:44:42,760
Speaker 1: defended sometimes obviously, but like if your main thing is

2070
01:44:42,760 --> 01:44:46,799
Speaker 1: like the thing, we should never defend something we've achieved

2071
01:44:46,880 --> 01:44:49,479
Speaker 1: so far. Um, we should never not be willing to

2072
01:44:49,520 --> 01:44:52,120
Speaker 1: destroy it in order to like build something bigger, right,

2073
01:44:52,439 --> 01:44:55,240
Speaker 1: Like we should never no movement thing that we have,

2074
01:44:55,640 --> 01:44:58,200
Speaker 1: be it an occupy part, be it be it like

2075
01:44:58,479 --> 01:45:02,320
Speaker 1: a take in space to sending that should never outweigh

2076
01:45:02,439 --> 01:45:06,639
Speaker 1: the possibility of expanding. And if that's our strategic mindset, Obviously,

2077
01:45:06,720 --> 01:45:08,840
Speaker 1: moment to moment you can't just be thinking that constantly.

2078
01:45:09,040 --> 01:45:12,160
Speaker 1: But the strategic mindset is like what we have now

2079
01:45:13,080 --> 01:45:15,639
Speaker 1: is only good to the extent that it can turn

2080
01:45:15,680 --> 01:45:19,439
Speaker 1: into something more UM rather than we have to defend

2081
01:45:19,479 --> 01:45:21,840
Speaker 1: what we have now. If you can think that way,

2082
01:45:22,200 --> 01:45:25,840
Speaker 1: I think it opens up a lot of strategic possibilities UM.

2083
01:45:25,880 --> 01:45:27,920
Speaker 1: And I think it's it's what has worked over the

2084
01:45:27,960 --> 01:45:30,960
Speaker 1: last decade that I've seen is UM when people attack,

2085
01:45:31,240 --> 01:45:33,600
Speaker 1: when people expand, when people try to do try to

2086
01:45:33,600 --> 01:45:37,080
Speaker 1: do new stuff. It doesn't always work and it doesn't

2087
01:45:37,120 --> 01:45:40,880
Speaker 1: always hold. But that's what When that stuff stops happening,

2088
01:45:40,920 --> 01:45:43,040
Speaker 1: the movement is doomed. I think. I think that I

2089
01:45:43,080 --> 01:45:46,040
Speaker 1: think that's a really good way to wrap things up.

2090
01:45:46,080 --> 01:45:48,760
Speaker 1: I think that's a nice, beautiful sentiment. I kind of

2091
01:45:48,840 --> 01:45:51,880
Speaker 1: view this type of thing in more than just protests

2092
01:45:51,880 --> 01:45:53,680
Speaker 1: and you know, and into different pastors of life. I

2093
01:45:53,680 --> 01:45:57,680
Speaker 1: think you can always learn from past experiences, from past struggles,

2094
01:45:57,720 --> 01:46:00,000
Speaker 1: but if you try to perfectly replicate them, your as

2095
01:46:00,000 --> 01:46:03,120
Speaker 1: totally gonna fail. You can you should always learn and

2096
01:46:03,160 --> 01:46:05,160
Speaker 1: move on, but you should not be focused on any

2097
01:46:05,240 --> 01:46:09,639
Speaker 1: kind of replication. Is there any of your bookstore writings

2098
01:46:09,640 --> 01:46:13,080
Speaker 1: you'd want to plug before we wrap up here? Sure? Yeah,

2099
01:46:13,479 --> 01:46:15,519
Speaker 1: I mean I wrote a book that came out last year,

2100
01:46:15,720 --> 01:46:20,000
Speaker 1: UM called in Defensive Looting. UM. Came out UM with

2101
01:46:20,040 --> 01:46:24,880
Speaker 1: bold type. UM. I am currently also writing. UM. I'm

2102
01:46:24,920 --> 01:46:27,559
Speaker 1: obsessed with movies. I write a movie review UM column

2103
01:46:27,680 --> 01:46:30,840
Speaker 1: for the Al Jazeera plus UM I did not know

2104
01:46:30,840 --> 01:46:33,400
Speaker 1: news letter. Yeah, the news letter sub stack. UM. If

2105
01:46:33,439 --> 01:46:35,600
Speaker 1: you want to read. I mean it's really it is

2106
01:46:35,640 --> 01:46:37,679
Speaker 1: really movie reviews. So if you want, you know, cranky

2107
01:46:37,680 --> 01:46:41,080
Speaker 1: anarchist theory, it's not the spot for you. UM. Otherwise, Yeah,

2108
01:46:41,080 --> 01:46:44,040
Speaker 1: I'm I'm on a pretty long social media break right now,

2109
01:46:44,080 --> 01:46:47,200
Speaker 1: but good for you there. Eventually I'll probably come back

2110
01:46:47,479 --> 01:46:52,559
Speaker 1: inevitably unfortunately. Yeah, you know, I just have I have

2111
01:46:52,640 --> 01:46:56,439
Speaker 1: writing popping up every every now and then, and UM,

2112
01:46:56,520 --> 01:46:59,720
Speaker 1: and if you read it, I would appreciate it. Well. Yeah,

2113
01:47:00,000 --> 01:47:02,479
Speaker 1: totally wonderful. Thank you, and yeah, thank you for so

2114
01:47:02,600 --> 01:47:07,880
Speaker 1: much for coming on to talk about UM occupying stuff

2115
01:47:07,920 --> 01:47:10,479
Speaker 1: that I think a lot of people hear about, but

2116
01:47:10,920 --> 01:47:13,120
Speaker 1: you know, at least all of my generation does not

2117
01:47:14,080 --> 01:47:18,120
Speaker 1: fully kind of grasp it. Um it is. It is

2118
01:47:18,200 --> 01:47:21,960
Speaker 1: literally my pleasure. Like I you know, I wasted so

2119
01:47:22,120 --> 01:47:23,960
Speaker 1: much of my life thinking about this. I'm so glad

2120
01:47:23,960 --> 01:47:26,000
Speaker 1: to be able to share some of it with some people.

2121
01:47:27,800 --> 01:47:29,599
Speaker 1: I'm so so glad you're able to join us too.

2122
01:47:29,760 --> 01:47:31,680
Speaker 1: This is I've I've been looking forward to us for

2123
01:47:31,680 --> 01:47:36,040
Speaker 1: a while. Yeah, that's very excited. All right, that wraps

2124
01:47:36,120 --> 01:47:39,400
Speaker 1: up us today. You can find us on Twitter and

2125
01:47:39,400 --> 01:47:43,000
Speaker 1: Instagram at cool Zone Media and Happen Here pod. We'll

2126
01:47:43,040 --> 01:48:03,479
Speaker 1: be back in for a few more episodes this week. Audios. Uh,

2127
01:48:03,520 --> 01:48:08,439
Speaker 1: that was the introduction, I did it, Sophie. Sophie is saying,

2128
01:48:08,439 --> 01:48:11,400
Speaker 1: that's an acceptable introduction. You know what podcast this is.

2129
01:48:11,439 --> 01:48:12,920
Speaker 1: You clicked on it, so I don't need to tell

2130
01:48:12,960 --> 01:48:14,639
Speaker 1: you the title. I don't need to say who we are.

2131
01:48:14,640 --> 01:48:17,680
Speaker 1: I'm just going to dive right into the fucking episode.

2132
01:48:18,280 --> 01:48:20,280
Speaker 1: No I'm not. This is It could Happen Here a

2133
01:48:20,320 --> 01:48:23,800
Speaker 1: podcast about things falling apart and uh and what to

2134
01:48:23,880 --> 01:48:27,160
Speaker 1: maybe do to to arrest that and do something better

2135
01:48:27,160 --> 01:48:30,200
Speaker 1: in its place, and uh. You know, folks who are

2136
01:48:30,200 --> 01:48:34,000
Speaker 1: are regular listeners who listened to the original scripted episodes

2137
01:48:34,040 --> 01:48:36,400
Speaker 1: of it could happen here the first fifteen episodes, which

2138
01:48:36,439 --> 01:48:40,200
Speaker 1: I certainly recommend to everybody. Know that one area in

2139
01:48:40,240 --> 01:48:44,320
Speaker 1: which I kind of separate from a lot of particularly

2140
01:48:44,360 --> 01:48:46,639
Speaker 1: more liberal folks and even some folks on the left

2141
01:48:46,760 --> 01:48:50,120
Speaker 1: is an embrace of the fact that, uh, firearms are

2142
01:48:50,160 --> 01:48:53,439
Speaker 1: sometimes necessary tools, especially in times of collapse when things

2143
01:48:53,439 --> 01:48:57,880
Speaker 1: get bad. Um. Now that said, we're also not uh

2144
01:48:58,280 --> 01:49:01,640
Speaker 1: kind of gun culture people here. We try not, for

2145
01:49:01,680 --> 01:49:04,920
Speaker 1: one thing, recommend that everybody necessarily pick up a gun.

2146
01:49:04,960 --> 01:49:08,080
Speaker 1: There's a lot of people, perfectly nice people who shouldn't

2147
01:49:08,120 --> 01:49:09,760
Speaker 1: have them, who don't need to have them, you know,

2148
01:49:09,880 --> 01:49:12,200
Speaker 1: if you're dealing with suicidal ideation or whatever. We're not.

2149
01:49:12,280 --> 01:49:14,200
Speaker 1: The point is, we try to be very careful about

2150
01:49:14,200 --> 01:49:18,799
Speaker 1: how we we talk about firearms as a potentially useful

2151
01:49:18,840 --> 01:49:21,680
Speaker 1: you've been potentially necessary tool in the times that we're in.

2152
01:49:22,240 --> 01:49:24,679
Speaker 1: And today, since we're a few weeks into this, we've

2153
01:49:24,720 --> 01:49:28,280
Speaker 1: covered producing food, We've covered some medical stuff. We've talked

2154
01:49:28,320 --> 01:49:31,759
Speaker 1: about uh, community organizing, and a number of other things

2155
01:49:31,800 --> 01:49:34,880
Speaker 1: that I think our priorities for most people before you know,

2156
01:49:35,400 --> 01:49:38,000
Speaker 1: getting strapped. Today we're gonna talk a little bit about

2157
01:49:38,040 --> 01:49:41,360
Speaker 1: getting strapped. And my guest today is Paul. Paul, do

2158
01:49:41,360 --> 01:49:43,439
Speaker 1: you want to kind of introduce your background in brief

2159
01:49:43,520 --> 01:49:47,000
Speaker 1: so people know why why you're on here. Sure, Robert,

2160
01:49:48,120 --> 01:49:51,400
Speaker 1: I was in the Marine Corps and infantry, and after

2161
01:49:51,479 --> 01:49:55,600
Speaker 1: that I went to security consulting and then to the

2162
01:49:55,640 --> 01:49:59,080
Speaker 1: Federal Protective Service and finally the A T F some

2163
01:49:59,240 --> 01:50:06,320
Speaker 1: of our funnest agencies. Yeah, all my favorite organizations there. Well,

2164
01:50:06,360 --> 01:50:08,200
Speaker 1: they're better than the the what is it, the f

2165
01:50:08,280 --> 01:50:10,720
Speaker 1: d A. Yeah, they beat the f d A. I

2166
01:50:10,760 --> 01:50:12,960
Speaker 1: mean in terms of body count, they're certainly better than

2167
01:50:13,000 --> 01:50:17,960
Speaker 1: the f d A. And what what do you do now,

2168
01:50:18,080 --> 01:50:22,040
Speaker 1: Paul that you're you're you're out of that line of work. Uh, well,

2169
01:50:22,040 --> 01:50:24,000
Speaker 1: I do two things. I got a day job at

2170
01:50:24,040 --> 01:50:28,680
Speaker 1: disney World and then, uh, the side gig is we

2171
01:50:28,880 --> 01:50:34,599
Speaker 1: run a explosives and machine guns supply company, also body armor,

2172
01:50:35,200 --> 01:50:38,599
Speaker 1: a handful of other things, but that's the big thing

2173
01:50:38,680 --> 01:50:43,600
Speaker 1: is destructive devices. Yeah. And uh, you've you've got I

2174
01:50:43,640 --> 01:50:46,200
Speaker 1: think experience that a lot of people, particularly on this

2175
01:50:46,240 --> 01:50:48,360
Speaker 1: side of the political I'll lack. You know. One of

2176
01:50:48,400 --> 01:50:52,120
Speaker 1: the one of the downsides of kind of rejecting the

2177
01:50:52,160 --> 01:50:55,000
Speaker 1: federal government in the military and all its forms, is

2178
01:50:55,040 --> 01:50:57,240
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of people who may accept the

2179
01:50:57,320 --> 01:51:00,040
Speaker 1: validity of being armed and don't really have much in

2180
01:51:00,040 --> 01:51:03,400
Speaker 1: the way of practical training, and firearms are tools that

2181
01:51:03,520 --> 01:51:06,840
Speaker 1: to use most efficlessly do require training. In practice. You

2182
01:51:06,880 --> 01:51:09,880
Speaker 1: can't just um, you can pick them up and be dangerous,

2183
01:51:09,880 --> 01:51:12,200
Speaker 1: but not in a way that is particularly protective to

2184
01:51:12,240 --> 01:51:17,320
Speaker 1: you in your community. Oh yeah, Um, so I wanted

2185
01:51:17,360 --> 01:51:20,519
Speaker 1: to talk about kind of recommendations and and everything. We

2186
01:51:20,560 --> 01:51:23,120
Speaker 1: talk about nothing. We're not talking in the context of

2187
01:51:23,120 --> 01:51:26,360
Speaker 1: forming a militia or in the context of you know,

2188
01:51:26,560 --> 01:51:29,720
Speaker 1: showing up with guns to to yell at people at

2189
01:51:29,720 --> 01:51:31,840
Speaker 1: a protest. If that's the thing you're choosing to do,

2190
01:51:32,200 --> 01:51:34,679
Speaker 1: that's a whole different ball game. We're talking about, um,

2191
01:51:35,280 --> 01:51:39,160
Speaker 1: kind of responsibly arming yourself and your community in a

2192
01:51:39,200 --> 01:51:42,120
Speaker 1: way that is not going to get you in legal trouble. Um.

2193
01:51:42,200 --> 01:51:44,320
Speaker 1: It is also not going to endanger them. Because one

2194
01:51:44,320 --> 01:51:47,360
Speaker 1: of the things you have to accept about firearms is that, um,

2195
01:51:47,400 --> 01:51:51,200
Speaker 1: there's a risk you know, related to owning a firearm. Um.

2196
01:51:51,240 --> 01:51:54,240
Speaker 1: Not just the risk that like you know, suicide risk

2197
01:51:54,360 --> 01:51:55,880
Speaker 1: raises if you have a gun in the house, but

2198
01:51:55,960 --> 01:51:58,799
Speaker 1: just um, if you don't use them properly. Even carrying

2199
01:51:58,800 --> 01:52:02,320
Speaker 1: a gun, you know, it's not unheard of for people

2200
01:52:02,360 --> 01:52:04,560
Speaker 1: carrying guns to have those weapons taken from them and

2201
01:52:04,680 --> 01:52:07,040
Speaker 1: used against them. It happens to police, and it happens

2202
01:52:07,080 --> 01:52:11,360
Speaker 1: to to armed citizens. So it's it's a matter of um,

2203
01:52:11,400 --> 01:52:14,160
Speaker 1: you know. I think when you accept that you're going

2204
01:52:14,200 --> 01:52:17,960
Speaker 1: to be armed, there's something incumbent upon you to understand

2205
01:52:18,000 --> 01:52:19,880
Speaker 1: the risks of being armed. And I guess that's kind

2206
01:52:19,880 --> 01:52:21,360
Speaker 1: of where I want to start, Like, what are some

2207
01:52:21,400 --> 01:52:24,519
Speaker 1: of the big pitfalls you see people uh fall into,

2208
01:52:24,600 --> 01:52:29,280
Speaker 1: like um that I think traditionally training is supposed to

2209
01:52:29,280 --> 01:52:34,120
Speaker 1: help allay to some degree. Uh. Well, probably number one

2210
01:52:34,240 --> 01:52:37,040
Speaker 1: is uh Grandpa has gone in the closet that's been

2211
01:52:37,040 --> 01:52:40,200
Speaker 1: there for forty years unfired, and somebody just picks it

2212
01:52:40,320 --> 01:52:44,040
Speaker 1: up and throw some ammo in it to go Huna deer,

2213
01:52:44,120 --> 01:52:46,960
Speaker 1: and you know it's got a barrel obstruction or something

2214
01:52:46,960 --> 01:52:50,679
Speaker 1: that just blows up, you know. Um. But number two

2215
01:52:51,000 --> 01:52:54,639
Speaker 1: and and the one that can be mitigated by training

2216
01:52:54,720 --> 01:52:59,439
Speaker 1: rather than just general uh not being stupid, because it's

2217
01:52:59,479 --> 01:53:01,280
Speaker 1: kind of stupid to pick something up that's really old

2218
01:53:01,320 --> 01:53:04,960
Speaker 1: and just try to shoot it is um not shooting yourself.

2219
01:53:06,080 --> 01:53:08,519
Speaker 1: And when you do go out to the range, not

2220
01:53:08,560 --> 01:53:11,760
Speaker 1: shooting other people, and then not shooting people in your

2221
01:53:11,760 --> 01:53:18,160
Speaker 1: own home. Um, you know, you don't as much as

2222
01:53:18,160 --> 01:53:20,680
Speaker 1: you might want to, say, defend your own home. Do

2223
01:53:20,760 --> 01:53:23,880
Speaker 1: you want to shoot your wife when she comes home

2224
01:53:23,920 --> 01:53:27,640
Speaker 1: at two thirty in the morning, uh, after work and

2225
01:53:27,640 --> 01:53:31,320
Speaker 1: wakes you up? And there are ways to mitigate that,

2226
01:53:31,520 --> 01:53:35,240
Speaker 1: and and it's really easy and it's really cheap. So yeah,

2227
01:53:35,320 --> 01:53:37,639
Speaker 1: let's let's let's start with some of those just if

2228
01:53:37,680 --> 01:53:40,000
Speaker 1: you're if you're new too, if you've decided I need

2229
01:53:40,040 --> 01:53:43,600
Speaker 1: a gun for whatever reason, you purchase a gun. Um,

2230
01:53:43,640 --> 01:53:45,800
Speaker 1: you know, I think the most basic first things are

2231
01:53:46,479 --> 01:53:49,280
Speaker 1: in terms of like actually making that relatively safe. Is

2232
01:53:49,360 --> 01:53:52,000
Speaker 1: number one, knowing which which kind of firearm to purchase?

2233
01:53:52,120 --> 01:53:55,120
Speaker 1: And number two, And these are not in order of importance,

2234
01:53:55,120 --> 01:53:57,920
Speaker 1: These are both very important. Number two is securing that

2235
01:53:57,960 --> 01:54:01,439
Speaker 1: weapon properly, as opposed to just having it laying loose

2236
01:54:01,520 --> 01:54:04,120
Speaker 1: in the house, which is never the best place. The

2237
01:54:04,120 --> 01:54:09,960
Speaker 1: best way to store a firearm, is it. Um, yeah,

2238
01:54:10,040 --> 01:54:14,560
Speaker 1: I mean I I own a number of personal firearms. Um,

2239
01:54:14,600 --> 01:54:17,360
Speaker 1: you know, I'm in my office right now where I

2240
01:54:17,360 --> 01:54:19,040
Speaker 1: got a locked door where nobody can get in, and

2241
01:54:19,080 --> 01:54:22,960
Speaker 1: I got a gun safe back behind the monitors. Um,

2242
01:54:23,080 --> 01:54:27,599
Speaker 1: and you know, I'm comfortable with that. But if if

2243
01:54:27,640 --> 01:54:29,559
Speaker 1: it was in a place where kids could get at it,

2244
01:54:29,560 --> 01:54:31,280
Speaker 1: you don't want to just stuff it in, uh, in

2245
01:54:31,320 --> 01:54:34,280
Speaker 1: a sock in the closet, which is actually what my

2246
01:54:34,360 --> 01:54:36,440
Speaker 1: mom did when I was a kid. Yeah, I mean

2247
01:54:36,480 --> 01:54:40,480
Speaker 1: safe storage and I mean really being able to identify

2248
01:54:40,720 --> 01:54:45,360
Speaker 1: your target is probably the biggest preventer of like inter

2249
01:54:45,520 --> 01:54:47,880
Speaker 1: family accident because I know, you know, we do talk

2250
01:54:47,880 --> 01:54:51,840
Speaker 1: about safe storage, kids and all that. But um, back

2251
01:54:51,880 --> 01:54:54,560
Speaker 1: to the wife coming home, if you just put a

2252
01:54:54,640 --> 01:54:58,320
Speaker 1: light on your gun, a hundred dollar light, you can

2253
01:54:58,520 --> 01:55:00,200
Speaker 1: look at the thing that you're shooting in the middle

2254
01:55:00,200 --> 01:55:03,240
Speaker 1: of the night and uh not shoot someone you don't

2255
01:55:03,240 --> 01:55:05,880
Speaker 1: want to shoot. Yeah. I would go so far as

2256
01:55:05,920 --> 01:55:08,400
Speaker 1: to say that, like, if you've got a home defense

2257
01:55:08,400 --> 01:55:11,320
Speaker 1: weapon without a light on it, um, you don't fully

2258
01:55:11,360 --> 01:55:16,920
Speaker 1: have a home defense weapon. Yeah, you know, Um, it's

2259
01:55:16,920 --> 01:55:21,400
Speaker 1: gonna be useless in roughly half of the situation. And statistically,

2260
01:55:21,440 --> 01:55:23,440
Speaker 1: like if you're looking at when people are actually tend

2261
01:55:23,480 --> 01:55:25,760
Speaker 1: to be endangered in their own homes, the vast majority

2262
01:55:25,800 --> 01:55:29,560
Speaker 1: of the situations in which you might be in danger. Um,

2263
01:55:29,640 --> 01:55:32,760
Speaker 1: when it comes to weapons selection, Uh, this is another

2264
01:55:32,840 --> 01:55:34,600
Speaker 1: area where like if you go on maybe one of

2265
01:55:34,640 --> 01:55:36,879
Speaker 1: the worst places in the world to have this discussion

2266
01:55:36,880 --> 01:55:40,600
Speaker 1: as Twitter, because everybody has the opinions on Twitter. Um.

2267
01:55:40,800 --> 01:55:43,600
Speaker 1: I tend to say because I think most people when

2268
01:55:43,600 --> 01:55:45,960
Speaker 1: they're looking for a first gun, if they're if they're committed,

2269
01:55:46,120 --> 01:55:48,120
Speaker 1: just like thinking of personal defense, they're going to go

2270
01:55:48,160 --> 01:55:50,360
Speaker 1: for like a lock or something. And I think unless

2271
01:55:50,400 --> 01:55:53,000
Speaker 1: you're planning on carrying a gun, And you can correct

2272
01:55:53,000 --> 01:55:54,920
Speaker 1: me if you disagree here, but I tend to think

2273
01:55:55,000 --> 01:55:58,440
Speaker 1: a handgun again, unless you're intending on carrying a concealed weapon,

2274
01:55:58,960 --> 01:56:01,440
Speaker 1: is the last thing that you should own as a

2275
01:56:01,480 --> 01:56:06,120
Speaker 1: gun owner. Um. I got a mixed opinion on that.

2276
01:56:06,400 --> 01:56:12,400
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I think that, uh, the handiness of

2277
01:56:12,440 --> 01:56:17,120
Speaker 1: a handgun can outweigh some of the issues. I know

2278
01:56:17,200 --> 01:56:21,800
Speaker 1: you guys dealt with fires up there, we have hurricanes. Um,

2279
01:56:21,920 --> 01:56:25,520
Speaker 1: being able to stick a handgun into a backpack you

2280
01:56:25,600 --> 01:56:30,840
Speaker 1: know it can go a long way, or being ab um,

2281
01:56:31,120 --> 01:56:34,360
Speaker 1: keep keep it on you in your car because here

2282
01:56:34,160 --> 01:56:38,360
Speaker 1: we're depend on state laws. Everything you say depends on

2283
01:56:38,440 --> 01:56:41,240
Speaker 1: state laws. Yeah, there are states where you can yeah. Yeah,

2284
01:56:41,280 --> 01:56:43,440
Speaker 1: if you're in California and you're in one of the

2285
01:56:43,480 --> 01:56:47,040
Speaker 1: counties that it doesn't issue a concealed carry of license

2286
01:56:47,080 --> 01:56:48,840
Speaker 1: like l A. It's really hard to get one. From

2287
01:56:48,880 --> 01:56:51,160
Speaker 1: what I understand, you got to get to San Berndino

2288
01:56:51,240 --> 01:56:53,040
Speaker 1: if you want to get one of those. Yeah, I mean,

2289
01:56:53,120 --> 01:56:55,960
Speaker 1: first off, like tooth, I got a short list of guns,

2290
01:56:55,960 --> 01:56:58,480
Speaker 1: and like two thirds of the list illegal in California.

2291
01:56:58,880 --> 01:57:03,879
Speaker 1: They're they're not roster. But for what's most usable against

2292
01:57:04,240 --> 01:57:07,840
Speaker 1: our most handy, it's probably a handgun. But if you're

2293
01:57:07,880 --> 01:57:14,120
Speaker 1: expecting a threat more than like thirty feet away, have

2294
01:57:14,280 --> 01:57:17,080
Speaker 1: something other than a handgun. Handguns they suck at hurting people,

2295
01:57:17,120 --> 01:57:20,840
Speaker 1: they suck at killing people. Yeah, they're they're ineffective. They're

2296
01:57:20,880 --> 01:57:23,480
Speaker 1: hard to use, I mean, say thirty ft away. But

2297
01:57:23,520 --> 01:57:26,600
Speaker 1: if you're not training regularly, hitting something reliably in a

2298
01:57:26,640 --> 01:57:29,640
Speaker 1: stressful situation at thirty with a hand can be difficult.

2299
01:57:30,120 --> 01:57:33,720
Speaker 1: It's not easy. Yeah, um, it's not easy, and I

2300
01:57:33,960 --> 01:57:35,960
Speaker 1: tend to recommend number one. There are some options, like

2301
01:57:36,000 --> 01:57:38,520
Speaker 1: even if you're sticking with a handgun, there are different

2302
01:57:38,640 --> 01:57:42,120
Speaker 1: kind of um like uh options for that. Like I

2303
01:57:42,120 --> 01:57:45,480
Speaker 1: I'm a big advocate of pistol caliber carbines, which is

2304
01:57:45,520 --> 01:57:49,320
Speaker 1: essentially the size of a small rifle so you can

2305
01:57:49,440 --> 01:57:51,960
Speaker 1: fit them easily in a backpack. Every backpack I've owned,

2306
01:57:52,000 --> 01:57:54,080
Speaker 1: you can you can stick something like um like a

2307
01:57:54,120 --> 01:57:57,960
Speaker 1: Sazy scorpion and without much difficulty. And because they're so

2308
01:57:57,960 --> 01:58:00,200
Speaker 1: When you're talking about what makes a weapon easy year

2309
01:58:00,240 --> 01:58:03,080
Speaker 1: to use, number one of the number one things is size.

2310
01:58:03,120 --> 01:58:05,400
Speaker 1: So the longer the barrel, the more accurate it is.

2311
01:58:05,440 --> 01:58:07,800
Speaker 1: The heavier the gun, the less recoil is a problem,

2312
01:58:07,800 --> 01:58:10,400
Speaker 1: the easier it is to use it. Range um and

2313
01:58:10,480 --> 01:58:13,120
Speaker 1: a pistol caliber carbine. You know, you stick a light

2314
01:58:13,160 --> 01:58:17,560
Speaker 1: on that. That's a really good home defense weapon. Oh absolutely, yeah,

2315
01:58:17,600 --> 01:58:21,480
Speaker 1: I mean especially uh people will argue about the different

2316
01:58:21,480 --> 01:58:24,080
Speaker 1: types of magazines, but if you buy one that takes

2317
01:58:24,120 --> 01:58:27,840
Speaker 1: a glock magazine and you have a glock, you can

2318
01:58:27,920 --> 01:58:30,760
Speaker 1: build a full little load out that's just takes all

2319
01:58:30,800 --> 01:58:37,280
Speaker 1: the same magazines. One is more accurate, one is a handgun, UM,

2320
01:58:37,320 --> 01:58:39,800
Speaker 1: and you know all the same AMMO. You're not having

2321
01:58:39,800 --> 01:58:43,680
Speaker 1: to uh figure out and read a bunch on on

2322
01:58:44,000 --> 01:58:45,600
Speaker 1: what kind of AMMO you need and stuff like that.

2323
01:58:45,640 --> 01:58:48,080
Speaker 1: You just buy one and it works for everything. Yeah,

2324
01:58:48,120 --> 01:58:50,120
Speaker 1: And when when you're talking about AMMO, I think one

2325
01:58:50,120 --> 01:58:53,280
Speaker 1: of the most important things, like especially if you're worried

2326
01:58:53,320 --> 01:58:56,840
Speaker 1: about a survival situation is availability? Um, which is the

2327
01:58:56,920 --> 01:58:59,040
Speaker 1: nice thing about like what we call the NATO caliber.

2328
01:58:59,120 --> 01:59:02,280
Speaker 1: So the NATO calibers are nine millimeter seven six two

2329
01:59:02,280 --> 01:59:04,480
Speaker 1: by fifty one better known as three o eight your

2330
01:59:04,480 --> 01:59:09,320
Speaker 1: grandpa's hunting rifle seven te um or it's thirty six

2331
01:59:09,320 --> 01:59:12,560
Speaker 1: but whatever, UM and then five five six slash two

2332
01:59:12,560 --> 01:59:14,480
Speaker 1: to three and those are the rounds that's like five

2333
01:59:14,760 --> 01:59:17,760
Speaker 1: six is the standard. That's what's in your bog standard

2334
01:59:17,760 --> 01:59:22,440
Speaker 1: a r UM. And so almost no matter what happens, UM,

2335
01:59:22,520 --> 01:59:25,400
Speaker 1: including you know Ammo crunches, you will be able to

2336
01:59:25,480 --> 01:59:29,160
Speaker 1: find some amounts of the calibers genital through your neigh

2337
01:59:30,240 --> 01:59:32,280
Speaker 1: and you're going to find a box of bullets. They

2338
01:59:32,360 --> 01:59:33,680
Speaker 1: might not even own a gun and they got a

2339
01:59:33,720 --> 01:59:37,240
Speaker 1: boxing nine millimeter. Yeah, everybody's got nine millionaire and UM.

2340
01:59:37,560 --> 01:59:41,680
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that the basics of like, um,

2341
01:59:42,400 --> 01:59:44,120
Speaker 1: what to get if you're looking at kind of just

2342
01:59:44,200 --> 01:59:47,640
Speaker 1: a basic defensive arm. UM, you know how to store

2343
01:59:47,720 --> 01:59:50,200
Speaker 1: it safely? You know, those kind of questions are important,

2344
01:59:51,000 --> 01:59:54,800
Speaker 1: UM when it comes to training. Uh, what are some

2345
01:59:54,920 --> 01:59:57,040
Speaker 1: of in your opinion, like the mistakes that you see

2346
01:59:57,120 --> 02:00:00,680
Speaker 1: people make when it comes to kind of of practicing

2347
02:00:00,760 --> 02:00:04,360
Speaker 1: training with their weapon. Um, going to an n R

2348
02:00:04,440 --> 02:00:08,200
Speaker 1: a basic like four hour class and thinking that you

2349
02:00:08,320 --> 02:00:13,040
Speaker 1: are a god. Um, they're there are people who have

2350
02:00:13,360 --> 02:00:18,160
Speaker 1: spent um five days a week going to classes and

2351
02:00:18,800 --> 02:00:21,800
Speaker 1: doing training. Because there's practice and then there's training. Training

2352
02:00:21,880 --> 02:00:25,560
Speaker 1: is where someone teaches you something. Uh, practices where you

2353
02:00:25,960 --> 02:00:28,720
Speaker 1: go with what you're already taught. Right. Um, So there

2354
02:00:28,840 --> 02:00:31,200
Speaker 1: there are people that spend all that time and there's

2355
02:00:31,240 --> 02:00:34,400
Speaker 1: still not the best in the world. Um, there are

2356
02:00:34,440 --> 02:00:37,680
Speaker 1: people who do a ton of practice. Jerry Micklich, you know,

2357
02:00:38,040 --> 02:00:39,440
Speaker 1: I don't know if you ever seen him shoot, but

2358
02:00:39,560 --> 02:00:43,200
Speaker 1: he's uh, he's like the fastest gun in the world

2359
02:00:43,320 --> 02:00:47,320
Speaker 1: or something like that. Um, his videos are crazy. Oh yeah, yeah,

2360
02:00:47,360 --> 02:00:50,480
Speaker 1: I mean he'll he'll outshoot a full auto gun. Yeah,

2361
02:00:50,600 --> 02:00:54,040
Speaker 1: with with revolvers and it's just like, you know, it's

2362
02:00:54,080 --> 02:00:57,600
Speaker 1: just absolutely mind blowing. Um. But now he's like he's

2363
02:00:57,640 --> 02:00:59,440
Speaker 1: like he's like Michael Jordan or something. You know, you

2364
02:00:59,480 --> 02:01:04,320
Speaker 1: just get people who have it's just that natural ability. Um,

2365
02:01:05,360 --> 02:01:08,920
Speaker 1: certainly married with a practicing But yeah, continue, if if

2366
02:01:08,960 --> 02:01:12,320
Speaker 1: you had a fight, a gunfight, which they really don't

2367
02:01:12,360 --> 02:01:13,840
Speaker 1: happen that much, but if you had a gun fight

2368
02:01:13,920 --> 02:01:18,040
Speaker 1: between Um, a guy with a high point C nine

2369
02:01:18,640 --> 02:01:24,720
Speaker 1: who had taken the cheapest quote reliable handguns on the

2370
02:01:24,760 --> 02:01:27,240
Speaker 1: face there if you had a guy with that that

2371
02:01:27,400 --> 02:01:30,080
Speaker 1: had had paid five hundred dollars for a training class

2372
02:01:30,200 --> 02:01:33,160
Speaker 1: over weekend and still went uh went to the shooting

2373
02:01:33,240 --> 02:01:36,480
Speaker 1: range every week and practiced, and um or not even

2374
02:01:36,520 --> 02:01:38,600
Speaker 1: every week, just every month, and then did dry fire

2375
02:01:38,880 --> 02:01:42,040
Speaker 1: drills once a month in his garage or whatever. Versus

2376
02:01:42,120 --> 02:01:45,879
Speaker 1: a guy who went out and bought a Wilson Combat

2377
02:01:46,080 --> 02:01:49,720
Speaker 1: three thousand dollar nineteen eleven but had only taken the

2378
02:01:49,840 --> 02:01:51,880
Speaker 1: n R A class. I will bet on the guy

2379
02:01:51,960 --> 02:01:55,840
Speaker 1: with the eight or the C nine all day long, um,

2380
02:01:56,200 --> 02:01:59,280
Speaker 1: even if he's only got one bullet, you know, yeah,

2381
02:01:59,440 --> 02:02:02,880
Speaker 1: don't don't care, He'll win. And often like for all

2382
02:02:02,960 --> 02:02:04,720
Speaker 1: of it, for all the guys you see, you know,

2383
02:02:04,800 --> 02:02:06,960
Speaker 1: with in all of their tactical gear and whatnot and

2384
02:02:07,320 --> 02:02:10,800
Speaker 1: their spare mag's taking a three hundred rounds out. If

2385
02:02:10,840 --> 02:02:14,440
Speaker 1: you actually look at most defensive shootings, um, it's very

2386
02:02:14,600 --> 02:02:17,960
Speaker 1: common and I think like like three to five rounds,

2387
02:02:18,200 --> 02:02:21,160
Speaker 1: three to five rounds generally closer than thirty feet, sometimes

2388
02:02:21,200 --> 02:02:24,240
Speaker 1: closer than like ten or fifteen that sits in my

2389
02:02:24,400 --> 02:02:31,000
Speaker 1: pocket most of the time. It's nineteen It's so tiny. Um.

2390
02:02:31,640 --> 02:02:34,280
Speaker 1: It has more bullets than I'll ever need to gunfight. Probably,

2391
02:02:35,000 --> 02:02:37,320
Speaker 1: I think I want to pivot from this point to um.

2392
02:02:38,000 --> 02:02:41,360
Speaker 1: We started this by it introducing that you you spent

2393
02:02:41,520 --> 02:02:43,720
Speaker 1: some time in the A t F, spent some time

2394
02:02:43,760 --> 02:02:46,880
Speaker 1: in the FPS. I haven't had any personal interactions with

2395
02:02:46,920 --> 02:02:48,680
Speaker 1: the A t F, but I have met some FPS

2396
02:02:48,720 --> 02:02:53,760
Speaker 1: guys support. You know, I'm kind of curious, especially as

2397
02:02:53,800 --> 02:02:56,400
Speaker 1: because I came in contact with you through your through

2398
02:02:56,480 --> 02:03:01,200
Speaker 1: your Twitter, where you're very my personal Twitter. Yeah, and

2399
02:03:01,280 --> 02:03:04,080
Speaker 1: you're you're quite politically active now, um in a way

2400
02:03:04,120 --> 02:03:06,800
Speaker 1: that I think is surprising people for someone with your background.

2401
02:03:07,120 --> 02:03:09,560
Speaker 1: Are you comfortable with kind of tracing sort of the

2402
02:03:09,600 --> 02:03:11,680
Speaker 1: broad strokes of your journey there, because I think that's

2403
02:03:11,720 --> 02:03:17,040
Speaker 1: instructive um for folks oh at FPS specifically, well, just

2404
02:03:17,160 --> 02:03:20,640
Speaker 1: kind of what brought you from there to hear? Oh um.

2405
02:03:21,360 --> 02:03:26,040
Speaker 1: So I got kind of uh, oh man, what What's

2406
02:03:26,120 --> 02:03:29,040
Speaker 1: what's the word for when you just get uh? I

2407
02:03:29,080 --> 02:03:31,240
Speaker 1: don't know. I just I got to a point. I

2408
02:03:31,360 --> 02:03:35,080
Speaker 1: showed up for for work at four thirty in the morning,

2409
02:03:35,840 --> 02:03:41,400
Speaker 1: and I was literally shuffling through some some paperwork and

2410
02:03:41,720 --> 02:03:44,600
Speaker 1: and was getting ready to file a warrant and just

2411
02:03:44,720 --> 02:03:48,440
Speaker 1: kind of realized I I didn't think that it needed

2412
02:03:48,480 --> 02:03:52,880
Speaker 1: to happen, And you know, I talked to my supervising

2413
02:03:52,920 --> 02:03:57,000
Speaker 1: agent about it, and UM, was kind of told too bad,

2414
02:03:57,160 --> 02:04:00,200
Speaker 1: and and I put in for some vacation time him

2415
02:04:00,320 --> 02:04:03,200
Speaker 1: and ended up putting him a resignation while I was

2416
02:04:03,240 --> 02:04:05,880
Speaker 1: on vacation. I mean that that's the gist of how

2417
02:04:05,960 --> 02:04:11,520
Speaker 1: I became not a cop. Yeah, And UM, I'm wondering,

2418
02:04:11,640 --> 02:04:15,920
Speaker 1: kind of what do you think? Is there anything that

2419
02:04:16,080 --> 02:04:18,400
Speaker 1: kind of I don't know what looks different to you

2420
02:04:18,560 --> 02:04:20,840
Speaker 1: now as you've kind of left that behind. Was it

2421
02:04:20,960 --> 02:04:24,520
Speaker 1: like sort of, Um, I'm guessing there's like a period

2422
02:04:24,600 --> 02:04:26,760
Speaker 1: like a goldfish, you know, in a new bowl of

2423
02:04:26,960 --> 02:04:32,000
Speaker 1: of acclamation to to life outside of being a cop? Um? Like,

2424
02:04:32,200 --> 02:04:34,080
Speaker 1: what what were the first kind of things that started

2425
02:04:34,120 --> 02:04:36,440
Speaker 1: to shift in your perspective when you left that that

2426
02:04:36,600 --> 02:04:42,839
Speaker 1: thought space. I'll tell you what, watching or reading whatever,

2427
02:04:43,000 --> 02:04:45,680
Speaker 1: an article or a YouTube video, especially now that body

2428
02:04:45,760 --> 02:04:52,400
Speaker 1: cams are more and more prevalent, is watching something, reading

2429
02:04:52,760 --> 02:04:57,440
Speaker 1: the the press release and going But that's that's not

2430
02:04:57,560 --> 02:05:00,360
Speaker 1: what happened like I just watched it, and and and

2431
02:05:00,520 --> 02:05:03,320
Speaker 1: going from being able to justify it in your own

2432
02:05:03,360 --> 02:05:06,800
Speaker 1: mind and literally argue with people and be a hundred

2433
02:05:06,880 --> 02:05:11,880
Speaker 1: percent convinced like that was a good shoot. Um Castillo,

2434
02:05:12,080 --> 02:05:16,360
Speaker 1: what it was? Philandro Castillo? Yeah, oh god? And he was, man,

2435
02:05:16,440 --> 02:05:20,520
Speaker 1: if you've if you've gotten lost track of this shooting

2436
02:05:20,600 --> 02:05:23,880
Speaker 1: in between all the others. Filando was a black man,

2437
02:05:24,040 --> 02:05:26,680
Speaker 1: a legal gun owner with a legal concealed carry permit,

2438
02:05:26,720 --> 02:05:29,000
Speaker 1: who was pulled over with his girlfriend and child in

2439
02:05:29,080 --> 02:05:32,400
Speaker 1: a car and hands on the wheel, told the officer

2440
02:05:32,520 --> 02:05:36,480
Speaker 1: he had a gun, uh, and got shot. Um, you know,

2441
02:05:36,600 --> 02:05:38,560
Speaker 1: and it did the thing you're supposed to do. Although

2442
02:05:38,920 --> 02:05:41,600
Speaker 1: now actually since then, you will get like some states

2443
02:05:41,680 --> 02:05:44,160
Speaker 1: will and some training classes will recommend if it's not

2444
02:05:44,280 --> 02:05:46,960
Speaker 1: legally required and you're carrying a gun, don't say anything

2445
02:05:47,080 --> 02:05:51,920
Speaker 1: for that reason. But I mean, yeah, the command to

2446
02:05:52,120 --> 02:05:56,120
Speaker 1: not reach for the gun to being shot multiple times

2447
02:05:56,160 --> 02:06:00,120
Speaker 1: in the chest was like under two seconds. Hum. So

2448
02:06:00,200 --> 02:06:02,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean the decision was already made as

2449
02:06:02,040 --> 02:06:03,640
Speaker 1: soon as as soon as he gave the command, the

2450
02:06:03,680 --> 02:06:07,800
Speaker 1: decision was made. And here's what that brings me to

2451
02:06:08,040 --> 02:06:10,080
Speaker 1: in terms of a question that's relevant to the topic

2452
02:06:10,200 --> 02:06:14,480
Speaker 1: of community self defensive potential community armed self defense, because

2453
02:06:14,560 --> 02:06:16,800
Speaker 1: that's not that is a that is a cop problem,

2454
02:06:16,840 --> 02:06:18,760
Speaker 1: but that's not just a cop problem. And what happened

2455
02:06:18,880 --> 02:06:22,160
Speaker 1: everybody problem in the chop and the chairs in Seattle,

2456
02:06:22,320 --> 02:06:24,480
Speaker 1: the the autonomous zone is evidence of that. You had

2457
02:06:24,560 --> 02:06:28,680
Speaker 1: this situation where people, after nights and nights of mostly

2458
02:06:28,800 --> 02:06:32,240
Speaker 1: inaccurate warnings about proud boys coming to attack, got amped up.

2459
02:06:32,640 --> 02:06:35,480
Speaker 1: They had guns, some kids drove by in a car

2460
02:06:35,560 --> 02:06:37,440
Speaker 1: and they fucking shot him to death. Um. And it

2461
02:06:37,600 --> 02:06:40,560
Speaker 1: is the same, it's the same mental thing happening. You

2462
02:06:40,600 --> 02:06:43,280
Speaker 1: don't have to have a badge for that, that mindset

2463
02:06:43,520 --> 02:06:47,840
Speaker 1: to infect, especially when you're carrying a gun. Um, how

2464
02:06:47,880 --> 02:06:54,080
Speaker 1: do you, in your opinion, fight back against that? Buck chill? Uh?

2465
02:06:54,320 --> 02:07:03,000
Speaker 1: You know, like like honestly, Um, if you were a teenager,

2466
02:07:03,080 --> 02:07:05,400
Speaker 1: which we grew up in almost the same place you're from, Plane, Oh,

2467
02:07:05,560 --> 02:07:10,760
Speaker 1: I'm from Capel, so I would have argued with you

2468
02:07:10,840 --> 02:07:13,240
Speaker 1: about them being the same place when the same but

2469
02:07:13,440 --> 02:07:16,640
Speaker 1: they're the same place. Yeah, they're absolutely the same place.

2470
02:07:16,960 --> 02:07:21,520
Speaker 1: Yeah one has uh one has uh woot dot com

2471
02:07:21,720 --> 02:07:25,120
Speaker 1: and the other one has raytheon so you know, and

2472
02:07:25,160 --> 02:07:32,640
Speaker 1: a bunch of hospitals. Um. But uh, you and I

2473
02:07:32,760 --> 02:07:35,120
Speaker 1: grew up in the same time, same place, same types

2474
02:07:35,160 --> 02:07:38,880
Speaker 1: of schools. How many times did you see in like

2475
02:07:39,240 --> 02:07:43,480
Speaker 1: high school or even middle school, just a guy hit

2476
02:07:43,560 --> 02:07:46,400
Speaker 1: on a girl and then the girl's boyfriend comes over

2477
02:07:46,440 --> 02:07:49,360
Speaker 1: and just starts fighting him, like like like the guy

2478
02:07:49,480 --> 02:07:52,680
Speaker 1: had no reason to know, he didn't know he was

2479
02:07:52,800 --> 02:07:58,080
Speaker 1: doing anything wrong. Um. And I'm not suggesting, I'm sorry.

2480
02:07:58,160 --> 02:08:02,960
Speaker 1: What I'm pointing out is that, Um, it's almost ingrained

2481
02:08:03,360 --> 02:08:08,400
Speaker 1: in us at a societal level to to react violently

2482
02:08:09,040 --> 02:08:14,000
Speaker 1: to maintain like our personal position. And if that means

2483
02:08:14,040 --> 02:08:19,080
Speaker 1: that I'm in my neighborhood and I don't recognize someone,

2484
02:08:19,960 --> 02:08:22,360
Speaker 1: it may seem like violence is the right way to go.

2485
02:08:22,640 --> 02:08:25,360
Speaker 1: That's actually what what you're doing. When like what's it called,

2486
02:08:25,480 --> 02:08:28,200
Speaker 1: Karen ng You know where you call somebody the black

2487
02:08:28,360 --> 02:08:32,880
Speaker 1: kid yell uh selling water bottles or whatever. Um, I

2488
02:08:32,960 --> 02:08:35,120
Speaker 1: know that was one in New York where the police

2489
02:08:35,200 --> 02:08:38,000
Speaker 1: came and harassed you know, some like twelve year old

2490
02:08:38,040 --> 02:08:42,600
Speaker 1: black kids because they were selling water bottles. Um, it's

2491
02:08:42,640 --> 02:08:44,200
Speaker 1: the same thing. I mean, you know in that case,

2492
02:08:44,280 --> 02:08:46,720
Speaker 1: you're not personally doing the violence, You're just calling somebody

2493
02:08:46,760 --> 02:08:49,680
Speaker 1: else to do it for you, um, because you know

2494
02:08:49,800 --> 02:08:52,560
Speaker 1: the police are kind of violence, violence of monopoly and

2495
02:08:52,600 --> 02:08:58,360
Speaker 1: all that. Yeah. Yeah, and that's some one of the

2496
02:08:58,440 --> 02:09:01,440
Speaker 1: most I think important things about that is the idea

2497
02:09:01,640 --> 02:09:05,960
Speaker 1: of UM violence is like like when you when you're

2498
02:09:06,000 --> 02:09:08,320
Speaker 1: willing to accept violence to kind of maintain your your

2499
02:09:08,480 --> 02:09:11,400
Speaker 1: your social position or something. UM. And I think that

2500
02:09:11,520 --> 02:09:13,680
Speaker 1: has a huge amount to do with with the kind

2501
02:09:13,760 --> 02:09:17,480
Speaker 1: of violence you see UM at protests with like we've had,

2502
02:09:17,760 --> 02:09:20,520
Speaker 1: you know, protests quote unquote security here in Portland, people

2503
02:09:20,720 --> 02:09:24,200
Speaker 1: of declaring themselves security and what does that mean shooting

2504
02:09:24,280 --> 02:09:27,360
Speaker 1: other kids within guns for graffiti? Like, but it is

2505
02:09:27,440 --> 02:09:29,400
Speaker 1: it is a matter for it's they're not doing it

2506
02:09:29,920 --> 02:09:33,240
Speaker 1: to protect anybody. They're doing it because they've declared themselves security.

2507
02:09:33,320 --> 02:09:35,560
Speaker 1: Somebody doesn't listen to what they say and their ego

2508
02:09:35,760 --> 02:09:37,640
Speaker 1: is hurt. It's the same thing that again cops do.

2509
02:09:37,760 --> 02:09:39,920
Speaker 1: It's this it's a human mindset. It's not just a

2510
02:09:40,640 --> 02:09:45,000
Speaker 1: a cop mindset. And UM, I think you when you're

2511
02:09:45,000 --> 02:09:47,200
Speaker 1: talking about like, I think there's a couple of things.

2512
02:09:47,440 --> 02:09:49,040
Speaker 1: Number One, if you're going to be armed and if

2513
02:09:49,040 --> 02:09:51,280
Speaker 1: you're going to be armed in a community self defense role,

2514
02:09:51,360 --> 02:09:52,880
Speaker 1: one of the things you have to accept, is that,

2515
02:09:53,000 --> 02:09:56,760
Speaker 1: like you're not, as a person who is armed and

2516
02:09:56,840 --> 02:09:58,800
Speaker 1: cares about the defense of your community, you're not a

2517
02:09:58,880 --> 02:10:00,960
Speaker 1: separate thing from them. I think that's one of the

2518
02:10:01,000 --> 02:10:05,160
Speaker 1: areas where which policing goes wrong. May view yourselves as separate. Yeah,

2519
02:10:05,440 --> 02:10:09,960
Speaker 1: and I know you guys have a big problem with that. Um,

2520
02:10:10,600 --> 02:10:13,160
Speaker 1: we do here too. I live in a metro and

2521
02:10:14,280 --> 02:10:18,360
Speaker 1: our metro police, like them, don't even live in the county.

2522
02:10:19,320 --> 02:10:21,920
Speaker 1: They all go the same here. Yeah. Yeah, they don't

2523
02:10:21,960 --> 02:10:24,320
Speaker 1: even not just the city, they don't live in the

2524
02:10:24,360 --> 02:10:28,600
Speaker 1: whole county. Um. And that's despite they get a living

2525
02:10:28,640 --> 02:10:30,880
Speaker 1: allowance if they'll live in the city, and there's a

2526
02:10:30,920 --> 02:10:33,600
Speaker 1: bunch of if they live in the city, they get

2527
02:10:33,640 --> 02:10:36,680
Speaker 1: a take home car. There's a bunch of incentives to

2528
02:10:36,800 --> 02:10:40,440
Speaker 1: try and get people to live here, and they still

2529
02:10:40,480 --> 02:10:43,440
Speaker 1: won't do it. They want to go live in the

2530
02:10:43,560 --> 02:10:47,600
Speaker 1: next sheriff over, the next county where yeah, we have

2531
02:10:47,680 --> 02:10:50,200
Speaker 1: a very vocal sheriff the next county over. Who's who's

2532
02:10:50,240 --> 02:10:54,720
Speaker 1: really racist and all that ship? Um? And I yeah,

2533
02:10:54,800 --> 02:10:58,360
Speaker 1: I think if you're if you're talking about like the

2534
02:10:58,480 --> 02:11:02,800
Speaker 1: potential of again of like armed community self defense, Um,

2535
02:11:03,440 --> 02:11:08,560
Speaker 1: you almost I almost would prefer phrasing it differently community

2536
02:11:08,600 --> 02:11:14,200
Speaker 1: self defense, you know, UM, which should community? Yeah, yeah, community,

2537
02:11:15,080 --> 02:11:19,920
Speaker 1: And you're not the gun isn't what you are. You're

2538
02:11:19,960 --> 02:11:23,760
Speaker 1: not you're not security, you're not self defense because you're armed.

2539
02:11:24,160 --> 02:11:26,440
Speaker 1: Your self defense because you're a member of the community.

2540
02:11:26,480 --> 02:11:29,160
Speaker 1: And if you personally choose to be armed, that is

2541
02:11:29,240 --> 02:11:33,080
Speaker 1: an option that is expanded to you specifically because you're armed.

2542
02:11:33,160 --> 02:11:35,800
Speaker 1: But it doesn't change fun. It shouldn't change what you are.

2543
02:11:35,920 --> 02:11:39,000
Speaker 1: And if it does, there's a phrase that I think

2544
02:11:39,080 --> 02:11:42,440
Speaker 1: is really useful, um, the finger pulls the trigger and

2545
02:11:42,520 --> 02:11:45,120
Speaker 1: if you want to avoid or the trigger pulls the finger. Sorry.

2546
02:11:45,200 --> 02:11:48,040
Speaker 1: And it's this idea that when you show up armed,

2547
02:11:48,640 --> 02:11:51,720
Speaker 1: and you're showing up armed as someone like your purpose

2548
02:11:51,800 --> 02:11:54,440
Speaker 1: there is to be armed, you're at at heavy risk

2549
02:11:54,600 --> 02:11:59,040
Speaker 1: of the weapon guiding your responses. Um. And that's the

2550
02:11:59,120 --> 02:12:02,480
Speaker 1: most important thing in any circumstance to avoid if you're

2551
02:12:02,480 --> 02:12:04,920
Speaker 1: carrying a weapon. If um, if you've got a hammer,

2552
02:12:05,000 --> 02:12:10,400
Speaker 1: everything's a nail is yeah. Well and and uh, the

2553
02:12:10,520 --> 02:12:13,480
Speaker 1: last twenty years we've had kind of a with the

2554
02:12:13,560 --> 02:12:17,160
Speaker 1: War on Terror. You've seen a proliferation in media around

2555
02:12:17,480 --> 02:12:23,120
Speaker 1: UM making Navy Seals and all that ship look really

2556
02:12:23,280 --> 02:12:27,040
Speaker 1: really really cool. Uh, every other movie is about that,

2557
02:12:27,280 --> 02:12:31,520
Speaker 1: even though like really they're just drunk guys who yell

2558
02:12:31,560 --> 02:12:34,600
Speaker 1: at people a lot and who occasionally commit murder to

2559
02:12:34,720 --> 02:12:36,800
Speaker 1: protect Or Was that was that the Seals? Was that

2560
02:12:36,880 --> 02:12:38,840
Speaker 1: the Green Berets who killed that guy to protect a

2561
02:12:38,920 --> 02:12:42,000
Speaker 1: drug trafficking Greg? I mean probably both. Oh you know

2562
02:12:42,200 --> 02:12:46,160
Speaker 1: that that was the Green Berets in North Carolina? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

2563
02:12:46,560 --> 02:12:50,320
Speaker 1: I mean it crosses all all borders. Um. But one

2564
02:12:50,360 --> 02:12:53,720
Speaker 1: thing that's come out of that is we we've started

2565
02:12:53,760 --> 02:12:58,560
Speaker 1: to call those guys operators. Right, So you've gone from

2566
02:12:58,600 --> 02:13:02,160
Speaker 1: a gun being a tool that someone trains there to

2567
02:13:02,480 --> 02:13:07,360
Speaker 1: use too, they are merely an operator of a weapons system. Um.

2568
02:13:08,320 --> 02:13:12,200
Speaker 1: And it it's kind of dehumanizing, like it it allows

2569
02:13:12,240 --> 02:13:14,680
Speaker 1: you to get out of the thought on that. Um,

2570
02:13:15,080 --> 02:13:16,960
Speaker 1: it's exactly what you were talking about. Where where the

2571
02:13:17,120 --> 02:13:22,120
Speaker 1: triggers really pulling the finger at that point? Um? Yeah,

2572
02:13:22,240 --> 02:13:24,840
Speaker 1: And it's it's I think there's a number of I

2573
02:13:24,920 --> 02:13:28,840
Speaker 1: don't know, there's a number of tactics and more than

2574
02:13:28,920 --> 02:13:30,600
Speaker 1: we can get through, and that we'll be talking with

2575
02:13:30,720 --> 02:13:33,160
Speaker 1: some other community to self defense people at some point

2576
02:13:33,200 --> 02:13:35,040
Speaker 1: in the near future about this, because this is a

2577
02:13:35,080 --> 02:13:37,800
Speaker 1: big topic, right, and it's not one I haven't seen

2578
02:13:37,800 --> 02:13:40,640
Speaker 1: anyone do it super well yet in the United States,

2579
02:13:40,760 --> 02:13:44,840
Speaker 1: like we anytime you have kind of persistent right wingers

2580
02:13:44,920 --> 02:13:48,760
Speaker 1: do every once in a while. Yeah, yeah, they take

2581
02:13:48,800 --> 02:13:53,040
Speaker 1: over blm Land. Yeah, but then they die. I forgot

2582
02:13:53,040 --> 02:13:57,320
Speaker 1: about that. Yeah they did die, get killed. Um. And

2583
02:13:57,520 --> 02:14:03,080
Speaker 1: I think that it's it's a it's a really messy

2584
02:14:03,200 --> 02:14:05,200
Speaker 1: topic because of you know, what you brought up is

2585
02:14:05,400 --> 02:14:08,600
Speaker 1: a valid point, all the everything that all the kind

2586
02:14:08,640 --> 02:14:11,600
Speaker 1: of social baggage there is around weaponry in this in

2587
02:14:11,720 --> 02:14:14,080
Speaker 1: this country and in our in our culture, this kind

2588
02:14:14,120 --> 02:14:16,800
Speaker 1: of like worship of the gun. And if you think

2589
02:14:16,960 --> 02:14:19,960
Speaker 1: like the left is any more immune to that than

2590
02:14:20,000 --> 02:14:22,160
Speaker 1: the right, you're wrong. You see the same you know,

2591
02:14:22,360 --> 02:14:26,360
Speaker 1: toxic behavior all around. You have to be extremely cognizant

2592
02:14:26,400 --> 02:14:27,680
Speaker 1: of it, even if you know it's something at the

2593
02:14:27,760 --> 02:14:30,960
Speaker 1: risk for there is um weapons in general have a

2594
02:14:31,280 --> 02:14:34,200
Speaker 1: mental impact on us carrying them. Um. And there is

2595
02:14:34,360 --> 02:14:36,800
Speaker 1: there is a level of just like being around weaponry

2596
02:14:36,880 --> 02:14:39,960
Speaker 1: that is entrancing. It's it's a human thing. You know,

2597
02:14:40,080 --> 02:14:43,760
Speaker 1: we make weapons, it's we're tool using apes and weapons

2598
02:14:43,800 --> 02:14:45,560
Speaker 1: are some of the first tools that we made that

2599
02:14:45,720 --> 02:14:48,960
Speaker 1: that are responsible for why you know, we get to

2600
02:14:49,000 --> 02:14:51,360
Speaker 1: tell the dogs and the cats what to do. UM.

2601
02:14:52,600 --> 02:14:56,160
Speaker 1: And you have to you have to really approach being

2602
02:14:56,440 --> 02:15:00,360
Speaker 1: armed from a standpoint of rejecting a lot of that

2603
02:15:00,520 --> 02:15:02,720
Speaker 1: if you're going to do it responsibly. I mean, among

2604
02:15:02,800 --> 02:15:05,000
Speaker 1: other things, the idea that you might have to use

2605
02:15:05,080 --> 02:15:09,320
Speaker 1: a gun UM has to be you're you're very close

2606
02:15:09,360 --> 02:15:13,440
Speaker 1: to your worst nightmare, UM, because it would be it

2607
02:15:13,520 --> 02:15:15,800
Speaker 1: would be if you ever actually had to use one.

2608
02:15:16,360 --> 02:15:18,560
Speaker 1: UM at minimum, you're talking like when you actually look

2609
02:15:18,560 --> 02:15:21,840
Speaker 1: at like legal self defense shoots, you're talking minimum. The

2610
02:15:21,920 --> 02:15:24,600
Speaker 1: next if you kill somebody, at least minimum, the next

2611
02:15:24,680 --> 02:15:28,320
Speaker 1: year of your life is dealing with the legal consequences

2612
02:15:28,360 --> 02:15:31,440
Speaker 1: of that. Sure, and probably hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yeah,

2613
02:15:31,920 --> 02:15:35,640
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're having if if if IF file,

2614
02:15:36,000 --> 02:15:39,560
Speaker 1: if charges get filed, you're talking hundreds of thousands of

2615
02:15:39,640 --> 02:15:44,920
Speaker 1: dollars for like a capital defense case, if not millions. Yeah,

2616
02:15:45,440 --> 02:15:47,680
Speaker 1: And and that's in you know, there's one of the

2617
02:15:47,720 --> 02:15:51,240
Speaker 1: gun YouTubers that I like to push people towards it

2618
02:15:51,840 --> 02:15:53,760
Speaker 1: for this kind of stuff is a guy named Paul Harold,

2619
02:15:53,800 --> 02:15:56,600
Speaker 1: who is certainly more on the conservative side, but who

2620
02:15:56,640 --> 02:15:59,200
Speaker 1: actually killed somebody in a self defense and went through

2621
02:15:59,200 --> 02:16:01,360
Speaker 1: the whole legal s f afterwards. And he has a

2622
02:16:01,400 --> 02:16:03,000
Speaker 1: couple of videos where he talks about it and he

2623
02:16:03,120 --> 02:16:07,120
Speaker 1: gives I think, pretty good advice on that that is

2624
02:16:07,240 --> 02:16:09,800
Speaker 1: that is completely without ego, because it's it was a

2625
02:16:09,920 --> 02:16:12,160
Speaker 1: nightmare for him. It was the worst experience of his life,

2626
02:16:12,200 --> 02:16:13,800
Speaker 1: which is what it's going to be if you ever

2627
02:16:13,880 --> 02:16:16,480
Speaker 1: have to use a gun, and that should be like,

2628
02:16:17,080 --> 02:16:19,280
Speaker 1: that should be the top of your that should be

2629
02:16:19,320 --> 02:16:20,720
Speaker 1: the top of your mindset. You know, I've been in

2630
02:16:20,800 --> 02:16:22,920
Speaker 1: this situation a couple of times at protests where like

2631
02:16:23,000 --> 02:16:26,000
Speaker 1: someone pulls a knife and starts lunging at people and

2632
02:16:26,120 --> 02:16:28,800
Speaker 1: I have a gun and I'm fifteen feet away, and

2633
02:16:28,880 --> 02:16:33,640
Speaker 1: I never drew in part because it never quite crossed

2634
02:16:33,720 --> 02:16:37,640
Speaker 1: that line for me, and I knew that giving people

2635
02:16:37,680 --> 02:16:41,520
Speaker 1: the chance to deescalate was vastly more important than um

2636
02:16:41,959 --> 02:16:45,880
Speaker 1: introducing a second weapon to the situation immediately. And if

2637
02:16:45,920 --> 02:16:48,440
Speaker 1: things had gone differently, perhaps I would feel differently about

2638
02:16:48,480 --> 02:16:51,360
Speaker 1: my choices in that moment, But um, they didn't and

2639
02:16:51,440 --> 02:16:53,600
Speaker 1: nobody got hurt. And that's always the best case scenario,

2640
02:16:53,640 --> 02:16:58,320
Speaker 1: even if it's somebody you really dislike who is who

2641
02:16:58,440 --> 02:17:01,800
Speaker 1: is threatening people with a weapon. I swear that happened

2642
02:17:01,879 --> 02:17:05,200
Speaker 1: up in Olympia like two weeks ago. Yeah, well the

2643
02:17:05,240 --> 02:17:07,840
Speaker 1: shooting in Olympia, which was a guy named Tiny who

2644
02:17:07,879 --> 02:17:10,640
Speaker 1: got shot. Um, and there's video of it. It's absolutely

2645
02:17:10,720 --> 02:17:16,240
Speaker 1: not a legally justified shoot for sure. Like, yeah he

2646
02:17:16,440 --> 02:17:19,400
Speaker 1: was he was like forty feet away, you know. Um, yeah,

2647
02:17:19,480 --> 02:17:22,200
Speaker 1: but he's really tall. He is big, he is I

2648
02:17:22,320 --> 02:17:25,880
Speaker 1: think that counts for something. He was tall, he was tall,

2649
02:17:25,959 --> 02:17:29,400
Speaker 1: he was chasing them, he was armed. Um. Not making

2650
02:17:29,440 --> 02:17:32,400
Speaker 1: a moral case here. I think legally they would have

2651
02:17:32,440 --> 02:17:35,039
Speaker 1: had a trouble had they stayed around. Now, of course

2652
02:17:35,080 --> 02:17:37,720
Speaker 1: they've got I believe they've been arrested at this point.

2653
02:17:38,200 --> 02:17:44,240
Speaker 1: Oh have they? I just heard visits think so so sorry.

2654
02:17:44,240 --> 02:17:45,960
Speaker 1: I don't mean to crash it for a second. I

2655
02:17:46,640 --> 02:17:50,480
Speaker 1: think I saw our best friend Andy post something about

2656
02:17:54,280 --> 02:17:57,440
Speaker 1: three days ago. Three Yeah, okay, so they did. They

2657
02:17:57,480 --> 02:18:00,800
Speaker 1: did arrest the guy. Yeah, And it's you know, it's

2658
02:18:00,840 --> 02:18:04,520
Speaker 1: another thing if you, um, if you feel if if

2659
02:18:04,560 --> 02:18:07,160
Speaker 1: you're involved in like a shooting that you feel is

2660
02:18:07,200 --> 02:18:11,320
Speaker 1: a justified legal shooting, Um, you don't. You don't leave

2661
02:18:11,360 --> 02:18:13,400
Speaker 1: the scene. Uh. And in fact, one of the better

2662
02:18:13,520 --> 02:18:16,640
Speaker 1: videos you'll get on like what to Do and uh,

2663
02:18:16,840 --> 02:18:18,560
Speaker 1: this guy's life has gone to ship because of the

2664
02:18:18,560 --> 02:18:20,840
Speaker 1: political nature of your shooting. But the guy in um

2665
02:18:21,120 --> 02:18:24,400
Speaker 1: in Denver who shot that dude at a protest, the pinker,

2666
02:18:25,720 --> 02:18:28,400
Speaker 1: I'll tell you, you know, no, no matter what you

2667
02:18:28,440 --> 02:18:29,920
Speaker 1: want to say about whether or not it was a

2668
02:18:29,959 --> 02:18:32,800
Speaker 1: good shoot, yeah that that he dropped that fucking guy,

2669
02:18:33,080 --> 02:18:40,000
Speaker 1: he dropped head down on his knees. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

2670
02:18:40,840 --> 02:18:43,240
Speaker 1: it was. You know, again, the court case is not

2671
02:18:43,400 --> 02:18:45,160
Speaker 1: settled out, so I don't know if that guy's story

2672
02:18:45,280 --> 02:18:47,080
Speaker 1: is going to end happily. But in terms of if

2673
02:18:47,120 --> 02:18:49,720
Speaker 1: you want to not get shot yourself and you want

2674
02:18:49,760 --> 02:18:52,040
Speaker 1: to have the maximum chance of defending yourself if you

2675
02:18:52,120 --> 02:18:55,439
Speaker 1: have to shoot somebody in a situation that's legally justified,

2676
02:18:55,840 --> 02:18:58,040
Speaker 1: what that guy did after the shoot is how to

2677
02:18:58,160 --> 02:19:01,320
Speaker 1: handle it, um, And I mean the evidence for that

2678
02:19:01,440 --> 02:19:04,039
Speaker 1: is he did not get shot. And obviously your mileage

2679
02:19:04,080 --> 02:19:05,920
Speaker 1: with that's going to vary depending on your skin color.

2680
02:19:06,440 --> 02:19:10,640
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, that's a big factor. Yeah. In terms of

2681
02:19:11,480 --> 02:19:14,840
Speaker 1: actual training, people can like pay for if they if

2682
02:19:14,879 --> 02:19:16,680
Speaker 1: they want to take that step, which I think is

2683
02:19:16,879 --> 02:19:19,720
Speaker 1: a good idea. UM who do you do. Do you

2684
02:19:19,800 --> 02:19:22,320
Speaker 1: have kind of like broad recommendations for how people can

2685
02:19:22,600 --> 02:19:24,400
Speaker 1: know if some things you know, because there's this is

2686
02:19:24,480 --> 02:19:29,320
Speaker 1: certainly a space where there's a lot of grifters and whatnot. Um, yeah,

2687
02:19:29,360 --> 02:19:36,000
Speaker 1: I mean most of the beginner level uh, how to

2688
02:19:36,080 --> 02:19:40,080
Speaker 1: fight with a gun classes are two to three days

2689
02:19:40,160 --> 02:19:42,880
Speaker 1: long like that. That's a good starting point is the

2690
02:19:42,959 --> 02:19:46,039
Speaker 1: fact that you're going to pay probably three to five

2691
02:19:46,120 --> 02:19:50,480
Speaker 1: hundred dollars per day, um, and it's going to be

2692
02:19:50,680 --> 02:19:56,480
Speaker 1: multiple days long. You can't because you're going from a baseline.

2693
02:19:57,280 --> 02:19:58,880
Speaker 1: You know, they know you already know how to a

2694
02:19:59,000 --> 02:20:01,680
Speaker 1: point and shoot a gun, but they're going to go

2695
02:20:01,840 --> 02:20:04,880
Speaker 1: up from everything on how to draw, how to move,

2696
02:20:05,040 --> 02:20:08,320
Speaker 1: how to reload. Um, you're gonna have some classroom time

2697
02:20:08,400 --> 02:20:13,000
Speaker 1: going over their specific safety instructions and stuff like that. Um.

2698
02:20:14,080 --> 02:20:16,120
Speaker 1: But anything you can do in one day or four

2699
02:20:16,200 --> 02:20:19,920
Speaker 1: hours or forty rounds or whatever, it isn't going to

2700
02:20:20,040 --> 02:20:25,240
Speaker 1: cut it. Um. You need to go get something, and

2701
02:20:25,360 --> 02:20:27,160
Speaker 1: you need to listen because they're going to ask you

2702
02:20:27,240 --> 02:20:29,800
Speaker 1: to do things that might not be the way you

2703
02:20:30,000 --> 02:20:32,640
Speaker 1: want to do it. You might say, yeah, that's not

2704
02:20:32,760 --> 02:20:36,200
Speaker 1: the way my dad taught me how to reload a handgun. Um.

2705
02:20:38,560 --> 02:20:43,320
Speaker 1: A good example is actually um Tactical Response in Tennessee.

2706
02:20:43,840 --> 02:20:46,120
Speaker 1: They a lot of people hate them, but they have

2707
02:20:46,200 --> 02:20:49,560
Speaker 1: a very specific way that they say, everyone reloads this

2708
02:20:49,640 --> 02:20:51,360
Speaker 1: way in our class. You know, you put it in

2709
02:20:51,440 --> 02:20:55,039
Speaker 1: and you sling shot the slide. Um. And and people

2710
02:20:55,040 --> 02:20:56,880
Speaker 1: will argue and go, well, I want to just press

2711
02:20:56,920 --> 02:20:58,680
Speaker 1: the button. Well the button is cool and all, but

2712
02:20:58,800 --> 02:21:00,320
Speaker 1: we want you to sling shot the slide. Just do

2713
02:21:00,440 --> 02:21:04,879
Speaker 1: it for this class. Um. Sorry, I got a little

2714
02:21:04,920 --> 02:21:07,560
Speaker 1: off topic there. No, no, no, that that's a good

2715
02:21:07,600 --> 02:21:11,640
Speaker 1: point too, because I mean, just go and listen, um.

2716
02:21:12,879 --> 02:21:16,160
Speaker 1: And you don't have to take everything away. You take

2717
02:21:16,280 --> 02:21:19,920
Speaker 1: what you saw as good usable information and merge that

2718
02:21:20,120 --> 02:21:23,040
Speaker 1: with what you already know, maybe throw away some of

2719
02:21:23,120 --> 02:21:24,760
Speaker 1: what you already know. When you've got this ball a

2720
02:21:24,840 --> 02:21:30,680
Speaker 1: goo that you can work with for practice. Um. Yeah, yeah,

2721
02:21:31,280 --> 02:21:34,280
Speaker 1: and yeah it is. And to that point when you're

2722
02:21:34,320 --> 02:21:38,040
Speaker 1: talking about like training, one of the differences between handguns

2723
02:21:38,080 --> 02:21:40,560
Speaker 1: and rifles, Like all all shooting, as always, there's a

2724
02:21:40,600 --> 02:21:42,880
Speaker 1: degree of perishable nous to it, but shooting a handgun

2725
02:21:43,000 --> 02:21:46,160
Speaker 1: is a much more perishable skill than shooting a rifle. Um.

2726
02:21:46,800 --> 02:21:49,240
Speaker 1: And it's it's so if you're going to be armed

2727
02:21:49,280 --> 02:21:52,600
Speaker 1: with a handgun. Um, it really behooves you to take

2728
02:21:53,040 --> 02:21:56,960
Speaker 1: to train, you know, because you're only as good as

2729
02:21:57,000 --> 02:22:00,360
Speaker 1: how often you've been out there, really uh um, and

2730
02:22:00,440 --> 02:22:02,920
Speaker 1: having a state a good foundation like taking some real

2731
02:22:03,040 --> 02:22:05,720
Speaker 1: professional classes will help a lot in that as opposed

2732
02:22:05,720 --> 02:22:07,360
Speaker 1: to just kind of going out to the range every

2733
02:22:07,400 --> 02:22:11,520
Speaker 1: now and again. But yeah, um, let's talk at the s.

2734
02:22:11,760 --> 02:22:14,400
Speaker 1: The last little bit of this here about kind of

2735
02:22:14,480 --> 02:22:17,160
Speaker 1: the gun that's always on the tip of everybody's tongue

2736
02:22:17,200 --> 02:22:21,000
Speaker 1: when you start talking about being armed and armed self defenses.

2737
02:22:21,160 --> 02:22:24,320
Speaker 1: You know, the A R platform. Um, it's a gun

2738
02:22:24,400 --> 02:22:27,600
Speaker 1: with a lot of baggage, a tremendous amount of cultural baggage,

2739
02:22:27,640 --> 02:22:30,120
Speaker 1: and it's it has become vastly more than just a

2740
02:22:30,200 --> 02:22:34,560
Speaker 1: firearm in our culture. Um what a what? What do

2741
02:22:34,600 --> 02:22:37,080
Speaker 1: you what? Are kind of? Because I am a big

2742
02:22:37,120 --> 02:22:40,560
Speaker 1: advocate of people who who are open to being armed

2743
02:22:40,959 --> 02:22:43,600
Speaker 1: getting an A R platform. I think it's a great

2744
02:22:43,640 --> 02:22:46,360
Speaker 1: gun to learn. I mean it goes yeah, it goes

2745
02:22:46,480 --> 02:22:49,920
Speaker 1: bang really well almost every time, as long as it's

2746
02:22:49,959 --> 02:22:55,440
Speaker 1: from a reputable manufacturer. Um, despite what some people say,

2747
02:22:55,840 --> 02:23:01,000
Speaker 1: they're very reliable. Um, they're easy to clean, literally as

2748
02:23:01,080 --> 02:23:03,480
Speaker 1: long as you keep them lubricated, even in the field,

2749
02:23:03,520 --> 02:23:05,920
Speaker 1: you keep it lubricated, it will just just keep banging

2750
02:23:05,959 --> 02:23:10,200
Speaker 1: out rounds um it functions. And you know, we talked

2751
02:23:10,240 --> 02:23:12,560
Speaker 1: about this during the episodes on like you know, food

2752
02:23:12,680 --> 02:23:16,160
Speaker 1: storage and in and whatnot. Like where there's a there's

2753
02:23:16,200 --> 02:23:19,680
Speaker 1: the there's the cheap version. I like stuff where there's

2754
02:23:19,800 --> 02:23:22,680
Speaker 1: there's the cheap version that works, and there's the expensive

2755
02:23:22,800 --> 02:23:25,200
Speaker 1: version that works. And you you have that with an

2756
02:23:25,240 --> 02:23:27,560
Speaker 1: A R. You can get a very inexpensive A R,

2757
02:23:27,760 --> 02:23:29,920
Speaker 1: and you can you can replace every part of that

2758
02:23:30,040 --> 02:23:32,200
Speaker 1: are over the next five years and have a six

2759
02:23:32,240 --> 02:23:36,360
Speaker 1: thousand dollar gun. I I did um minor price checking

2760
02:23:36,560 --> 02:23:38,160
Speaker 1: last night because I was like, you know, I haven't

2761
02:23:38,240 --> 02:23:41,360
Speaker 1: checked the price the retail prices on stuff right. So

2762
02:23:41,760 --> 02:23:45,160
Speaker 1: in like your your budget tier normal price that that's

2763
02:23:45,160 --> 02:23:48,080
Speaker 1: out right now, you've got like a Ruber a R

2764
02:23:48,160 --> 02:23:51,680
Speaker 1: five five six. There's seven hundred bucks. That's that's dirt cheap,

2765
02:23:51,760 --> 02:23:54,720
Speaker 1: and it's gonna go bang just the same read gun. Yeah.

2766
02:23:54,720 --> 02:23:56,920
Speaker 1: I have a friend who who's who's a R is

2767
02:23:56,959 --> 02:23:59,640
Speaker 1: A five five six and they're very solid. Yeah, they

2768
02:23:59,760 --> 02:24:02,240
Speaker 1: just they go bang every time. You're not going to

2769
02:24:02,320 --> 02:24:04,600
Speaker 1: break up. Um. I mean, as long as you don't

2770
02:24:04,640 --> 02:24:06,000
Speaker 1: use it like a baseball bat, you're not going to

2771
02:24:06,080 --> 02:24:09,400
Speaker 1: break up, especially now that the Russian steelcase damo has

2772
02:24:09,480 --> 02:24:14,680
Speaker 1: been banned. But then, like the the other end of

2773
02:24:14,720 --> 02:24:18,400
Speaker 1: the spectrum is you got a sick right, Yeah, I've

2774
02:24:18,400 --> 02:24:21,440
Speaker 1: got a couple. Okay, So you know what the rattler is?

2775
02:24:22,160 --> 02:24:24,920
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's a fun one. I do not own

2776
02:24:24,959 --> 02:24:27,520
Speaker 1: a rattler, but they are They are cute. Do you

2777
02:24:27,600 --> 02:24:33,160
Speaker 1: know how much? Well, first off, the rattler it's a short,

2778
02:24:33,240 --> 02:24:36,480
Speaker 1: bare old five five six. It's not really an air

2779
02:24:36,520 --> 02:24:40,400
Speaker 1: of fifteen, but like technically it kind of is. Yeah, um,

2780
02:24:41,720 --> 02:24:45,520
Speaker 1: and it's well, how about this, how much do you

2781
02:24:45,680 --> 02:24:47,720
Speaker 1: think that the rattler costs? Right now, don't don't go

2782
02:24:47,879 --> 02:24:51,640
Speaker 1: look it, just just ta probably bucks would be my guests.

2783
02:24:56,040 --> 02:24:58,680
Speaker 1: Now it's uh now, I actually put it in my

2784
02:24:58,800 --> 02:25:03,160
Speaker 1: category of honorable mentioned slash meme because it's kind of

2785
02:25:03,200 --> 02:25:06,840
Speaker 1: a meme gun. Uh it's so tiny, um, but I

2786
02:25:06,920 --> 02:25:09,039
Speaker 1: don't want to get shot with it. But that's kind

2787
02:25:09,080 --> 02:25:12,000
Speaker 1: of the spread we were talking about, which is, you know,

2788
02:25:12,520 --> 02:25:15,360
Speaker 1: you can get a seven dollar gun and it'll go

2789
02:25:15,520 --> 02:25:19,080
Speaker 1: bang the exact same way as the rattler. UM. It

2790
02:25:19,200 --> 02:25:23,560
Speaker 1: fires the same bullet um, and you can build up

2791
02:25:23,600 --> 02:25:25,959
Speaker 1: to something not like a rattler, but you can build

2792
02:25:26,000 --> 02:25:29,920
Speaker 1: up to um a bunch of Novesky parts. You can

2793
02:25:29,959 --> 02:25:33,440
Speaker 1: throw a bunch of Novesky parts into that ruger lower

2794
02:25:33,520 --> 02:25:37,039
Speaker 1: and upper that you bought and build a really awesome

2795
02:25:37,120 --> 02:25:43,200
Speaker 1: gun that will be you know, reliable. Yeah, yeah, and

2796
02:25:43,360 --> 02:25:46,240
Speaker 1: you can you know, I think generally if you're buying

2797
02:25:46,360 --> 02:25:50,160
Speaker 1: like a again, you're you're getting kind of a bargain basement.

2798
02:25:50,280 --> 02:25:53,120
Speaker 1: Are one of the first things that that it's going

2799
02:25:53,160 --> 02:25:55,280
Speaker 1: to behoove you to replaces the optics. You know, it'll

2800
02:25:55,320 --> 02:25:58,400
Speaker 1: probably start with ion sights. But these don't even come

2801
02:25:58,480 --> 02:26:01,800
Speaker 1: with anything. Yeah, usually they come with nothing on them

2802
02:26:01,840 --> 02:26:03,560
Speaker 1: and you have to stick the irons or you stick

2803
02:26:03,600 --> 02:26:07,240
Speaker 1: a reflex site. There's a whole world of um of optics,

2804
02:26:07,280 --> 02:26:08,480
Speaker 1: and I think one of the actually one of the

2805
02:26:08,520 --> 02:26:11,880
Speaker 1: websites I recommend people check into if you're looking and

2806
02:26:12,000 --> 02:26:14,120
Speaker 1: kind of reading up on this and and doing your

2807
02:26:14,200 --> 02:26:18,640
Speaker 1: due diligence is Pew Pew tactical Um. They do not

2808
02:26:18,840 --> 02:26:21,920
Speaker 1: written from like a super you know, chutty or whatever. Like.

2809
02:26:22,000 --> 02:26:24,760
Speaker 1: You get a lot of very political gun websites that

2810
02:26:24,800 --> 02:26:27,360
Speaker 1: may have some good information but are frustrating to read.

2811
02:26:27,400 --> 02:26:29,800
Speaker 1: They're not that way. They're written. You know, four people

2812
02:26:29,840 --> 02:26:33,000
Speaker 1: who are not super aggro about guns, but who are

2813
02:26:33,120 --> 02:26:35,240
Speaker 1: are are interested in guns, and you can find really

2814
02:26:35,280 --> 02:26:38,119
Speaker 1: good reviews on stuff. But as a general rule, modern

2815
02:26:38,160 --> 02:26:40,400
Speaker 1: optics beat iron sights every day of the way, like

2816
02:26:40,920 --> 02:26:42,840
Speaker 1: they prefer I I and I do in some case

2817
02:26:43,320 --> 02:26:46,040
Speaker 1: on my a case, I vastly prefer using irons, But

2818
02:26:46,080 --> 02:26:47,920
Speaker 1: that would never be the weapon I would pick if

2819
02:26:48,320 --> 02:26:50,800
Speaker 1: I was in a situation where I needed a weapon,

2820
02:26:50,879 --> 02:26:55,240
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, I mean I think everyone should learn

2821
02:26:55,520 --> 02:27:00,760
Speaker 1: how to use iron sights, absolutely. But if I can

2822
02:27:00,920 --> 02:27:04,119
Speaker 1: hand someone a four and fifty dollar a point pro

2823
02:27:05,120 --> 02:27:08,959
Speaker 1: which which is uh the budget version of a high

2824
02:27:09,120 --> 02:27:12,280
Speaker 1: end optic, if I can put a four D and

2825
02:27:12,320 --> 02:27:15,760
Speaker 1: fifty optic with the mountain everything onto a rifle and

2826
02:27:15,920 --> 02:27:18,960
Speaker 1: just go, hey, just just put the dot on what

2827
02:27:19,080 --> 02:27:23,040
Speaker 1: you want to shoot, You're done. Um. Now, there's a

2828
02:27:23,120 --> 02:27:25,440
Speaker 1: lot that goes past that, but we got rid of

2829
02:27:25,520 --> 02:27:29,240
Speaker 1: the entire proper site alignment and all that. They just

2830
02:27:29,320 --> 02:27:33,640
Speaker 1: got to put the dot on the box and squeeze. Yeah. Yeah,

2831
02:27:33,680 --> 02:27:36,520
Speaker 1: I mean even even the Marine Corps famous for for

2832
02:27:36,680 --> 02:27:40,440
Speaker 1: fielding marksman has gone we're going to switch over to

2833
02:27:40,680 --> 02:27:44,440
Speaker 1: optic based training. Yeah, they're just I mean you look

2834
02:27:44,480 --> 02:27:46,640
Speaker 1: at even guys in like id Lib Province, which is

2835
02:27:46,720 --> 02:27:49,240
Speaker 1: like one of the rebel provinces in Syria that's been

2836
02:27:49,480 --> 02:27:52,800
Speaker 1: persistently under siege for most of the last decade. Um,

2837
02:27:53,560 --> 02:27:56,879
Speaker 1: they're all using fancy optics now like that generally alfin

2838
02:27:56,920 --> 02:28:00,320
Speaker 1: Ali Baba versions of like brand optics. But does the

2839
02:28:00,360 --> 02:28:02,480
Speaker 1: trick you know, I mean it's a it's a sig

2840
02:28:02,600 --> 02:28:06,760
Speaker 1: Romeo that never got the role market for cig on, Yeah, exactly,

2841
02:28:06,879 --> 02:28:12,040
Speaker 1: and they paid a hundred bucks instead of Yeah. Um, alright, Well,

2842
02:28:12,080 --> 02:28:15,320
Speaker 1: I think that's most of what we can responsibly get through.

2843
02:28:15,360 --> 02:28:17,320
Speaker 1: I do want to end on the caveat we started

2844
02:28:17,400 --> 02:28:21,520
Speaker 1: with this with, which is that um deciding whether or not.

2845
02:28:21,879 --> 02:28:27,160
Speaker 1: And I we advocate, uh, firearms is an option both

2846
02:28:27,200 --> 02:28:29,800
Speaker 1: as a legal option and something that can be for

2847
02:28:29,920 --> 02:28:32,960
Speaker 1: your community and for you as an individual potentially practical.

2848
02:28:33,760 --> 02:28:36,800
Speaker 1: I don't blanket advise people to buy guns. I think

2849
02:28:36,879 --> 02:28:39,840
Speaker 1: in many cases it's going to be counterproductive. I think

2850
02:28:39,959 --> 02:28:42,280
Speaker 1: you should not own a firearm. Again, if you're someone

2851
02:28:42,320 --> 02:28:46,440
Speaker 1: who struggles with suicidal ideation, they they can be a

2852
02:28:46,560 --> 02:28:48,480
Speaker 1: very dangerous thing to have in your home if that's

2853
02:28:48,520 --> 02:28:51,480
Speaker 1: something that that you battle with. I do think that

2854
02:28:51,600 --> 02:28:54,840
Speaker 1: they can be owned and used very responsibly. In addition

2855
02:28:54,920 --> 02:28:58,480
Speaker 1: to I think shooting can be a really enjoyable pastime. Um,

2856
02:28:58,600 --> 02:29:00,680
Speaker 1: and I think more than anything in a whole bunch

2857
02:29:00,720 --> 02:29:03,720
Speaker 1: of people who are talking about killing you all have guns.

2858
02:29:04,080 --> 02:29:06,039
Speaker 1: It can behoove you to own a firearm as well

2859
02:29:06,520 --> 02:29:09,320
Speaker 1: if you're a member of one of those communities. So

2860
02:29:09,840 --> 02:29:12,760
Speaker 1: please don't take any of this. As Robert Evans says,

2861
02:29:12,840 --> 02:29:15,040
Speaker 1: everyone go buy a gun. But if you're going to

2862
02:29:15,120 --> 02:29:18,120
Speaker 1: buy a gun, there's there's a right way and a

2863
02:29:18,200 --> 02:29:21,080
Speaker 1: responsible way to go about it, and there's you know,

2864
02:29:21,480 --> 02:29:23,800
Speaker 1: picking up a random twelve gauge and shoving it under

2865
02:29:23,840 --> 02:29:28,359
Speaker 1: your bed, which is no more shotguns for home defense.

2866
02:29:28,720 --> 02:29:33,440
Speaker 1: Yeah they're not. They're not ideal. Um. Yeah, I mean

2867
02:29:33,480 --> 02:29:35,760
Speaker 1: we can, we can talk about over penetration and stuff,

2868
02:29:35,760 --> 02:29:41,879
Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean just being able to move lead

2869
02:29:41,920 --> 02:29:47,000
Speaker 1: in a direction. They're very bad at it. Yeah, um yeah, yeah,

2870
02:29:47,120 --> 02:29:49,600
Speaker 1: they're they're they're not. They're not. I mean again, something

2871
02:29:49,680 --> 02:29:53,440
Speaker 1: like uh an a R or a pistol caliber carbine

2872
02:29:53,600 --> 02:29:56,080
Speaker 1: is in a lot of situations going to be a

2873
02:29:56,160 --> 02:29:59,280
Speaker 1: much more practical and and have less risk of hitting

2874
02:29:59,280 --> 02:30:01,760
Speaker 1: stuff you don't want to hit necessarily get get the

2875
02:30:02,160 --> 02:30:08,160
Speaker 1: high point? Um, yeat the yeah they eat cannon. Well

2876
02:30:08,200 --> 02:30:11,160
Speaker 1: we'll discuss that on our whole episode of about high Points.

2877
02:30:11,640 --> 02:30:15,440
Speaker 1: So you've shot yourself in the dick the high points story.

2878
02:30:18,560 --> 02:30:21,720
Speaker 1: All right, Well, um, do you wanna Paul, you've got

2879
02:30:21,760 --> 02:30:25,000
Speaker 1: any got anything to plug before we roll out here? Uh?

2880
02:30:25,840 --> 02:30:30,480
Speaker 1: Give food to homeless people? Well houseless, houseless I think

2881
02:30:30,640 --> 02:30:33,800
Speaker 1: is yeah. Um, and if you're in an area with

2882
02:30:33,920 --> 02:30:36,760
Speaker 1: a based d S A joined the d S I

2883
02:30:37,000 --> 02:30:40,720
Speaker 1: and then vote out the ship libs. That's what's happening

2884
02:30:40,800 --> 02:30:49,600
Speaker 1: here in Orlando. Um, but yeah, embrace anarchy. Well, I'm

2885
02:30:50,240 --> 02:30:52,960
Speaker 1: Robert Evans. This has been a podcast and uh and

2886
02:30:53,080 --> 02:30:55,800
Speaker 1: remember as we sail out, there's a reason the episode

2887
02:30:55,840 --> 02:30:59,720
Speaker 1: talking about guns came after the episodes talking about storing

2888
02:31:00,000 --> 02:31:18,920
Speaker 1: and growing food. Welcome back to the it could happen here. Yeah,

2889
02:31:19,120 --> 02:31:21,880
Speaker 1: that's the podcast we're doing right now. It's a podcast

2890
02:31:21,920 --> 02:31:24,560
Speaker 1: about how things are kind of falling apart, but maybe

2891
02:31:24,600 --> 02:31:26,680
Speaker 1: they don't need to, or at least not as much

2892
02:31:26,840 --> 02:31:29,880
Speaker 1: as they have been. I'm Robert Evans with me, as

2893
02:31:30,160 --> 02:31:35,520
Speaker 1: often is my co host Garrison. Davis Garrison, UM say

2894
02:31:35,600 --> 02:31:38,560
Speaker 1: something inciting to the audience. I'm on my second cup

2895
02:31:38,600 --> 02:31:41,280
Speaker 1: of coffee. Yeah, because it is. It is the early

2896
02:31:41,400 --> 02:31:43,560
Speaker 1: morning for you, by which I mean to eleven in

2897
02:31:43,600 --> 02:31:47,560
Speaker 1: the afternoon. UM, also with us today. Our guest for

2898
02:31:47,600 --> 02:31:52,400
Speaker 1: this episode is David van Douson. Uh. David, you are

2899
02:31:52,480 --> 02:31:55,640
Speaker 1: the president of the State Labor Council for the Vermont

2900
02:31:55,720 --> 02:31:58,720
Speaker 1: a f l c I O and there's a bunch

2901
02:31:58,760 --> 02:32:01,200
Speaker 1: of stuff that's interesting about your organization. Will dig into

2902
02:32:01,280 --> 02:32:02,960
Speaker 1: it in more detail in a second, but first I

2903
02:32:03,040 --> 02:32:04,600
Speaker 1: just want to say hello and thank you for being

2904
02:32:04,640 --> 02:32:09,040
Speaker 1: on the show. Now, David, the big thing, I mean,

2905
02:32:09,080 --> 02:32:11,080
Speaker 1: the Vermont a f l c I has been in

2906
02:32:11,120 --> 02:32:13,680
Speaker 1: the news a couple of times recently. The most recent

2907
02:32:13,760 --> 02:32:17,480
Speaker 1: one is y'all issued a statement making you the coverage

2908
02:32:17,480 --> 02:32:19,760
Speaker 1: I've seen has said the first labor organization of the

2909
02:32:19,879 --> 02:32:23,960
Speaker 1: US to like support gun rights. I mean like as

2910
02:32:24,040 --> 02:32:25,640
Speaker 1: is stated in a lot of the stuff you've put out,

2911
02:32:25,680 --> 02:32:28,680
Speaker 1: like Blair Mountain. There's a long history of labor organizations

2912
02:32:29,000 --> 02:32:32,600
Speaker 1: making use of the Second Amendment. But UM, I certainly

2913
02:32:32,640 --> 02:32:35,520
Speaker 1: haven't heard of a labor organization stating at the way

2914
02:32:35,560 --> 02:32:37,960
Speaker 1: you did, which is basically the case you've made, is

2915
02:32:38,080 --> 02:32:42,640
Speaker 1: because far right fascist organizations are so heavily armed and

2916
02:32:42,720 --> 02:32:46,080
Speaker 1: any gut all of the gun control policies being heavily debated,

2917
02:32:46,120 --> 02:32:50,240
Speaker 1: at least among liberals, are likely to ignore those people

2918
02:32:50,320 --> 02:32:54,679
Speaker 1: while restricting the ability of working class and particularly marginalized

2919
02:32:54,720 --> 02:32:57,960
Speaker 1: people to arm themselves. Um, you do not support those

2920
02:32:58,040 --> 02:33:00,880
Speaker 1: regulations because you support the rights of those groups to

2921
02:33:00,920 --> 02:33:04,080
Speaker 1: be able to defend themselves from fascists. That more or

2922
02:33:04,160 --> 02:33:07,440
Speaker 1: less correct. Well, Look, we believe in the right of

2923
02:33:07,520 --> 02:33:13,520
Speaker 1: the people to defend themselves, but our policies, including that one,

2924
02:33:13,920 --> 02:33:17,800
Speaker 1: are not adopted by the elected leadership, including myself. They're

2925
02:33:17,800 --> 02:33:21,880
Speaker 1: adopted by our members. We believe very firmly and democracy

2926
02:33:22,000 --> 02:33:25,440
Speaker 1: participaty democracy. So with issues like this, we're happy to

2927
02:33:25,480 --> 02:33:29,000
Speaker 1: bring into our convention, which we recently did, and facilitate

2928
02:33:29,040 --> 02:33:32,680
Speaker 1: a full debate on the issue. So that's exactly what

2929
02:33:32,800 --> 02:33:35,080
Speaker 1: we did. We talked about it, our rank and file

2930
02:33:35,160 --> 02:33:39,279
Speaker 1: members talked about it. They made amendments, They debated passionately

2931
02:33:39,480 --> 02:33:43,080
Speaker 1: different sides of the issue in a respectful way, in

2932
02:33:43,120 --> 02:33:46,560
Speaker 1: a productive way. A number of amendments were made they

2933
02:33:46,600 --> 02:33:49,960
Speaker 1: were adopted, and then ultimately the resolution was passed with

2934
02:33:50,160 --> 02:33:53,520
Speaker 1: over a two thirds majority of our right file delegates

2935
02:33:53,560 --> 02:33:56,640
Speaker 1: in favor. So that's where we are right now. Yeah,

2936
02:33:56,680 --> 02:33:59,760
Speaker 1: I've read a bit about this, including you know, there's

2937
02:33:59,800 --> 02:34:02,480
Speaker 1: been some critiques from a representative from the a f T,

2938
02:34:02,640 --> 02:34:05,560
Speaker 1: which is the local teachers union, but there was also

2939
02:34:05,640 --> 02:34:07,200
Speaker 1: a member of the Vermont a f l C i

2940
02:34:07,280 --> 02:34:10,520
Speaker 1: oh who essentially stated, like, hey, I didn't actually agree

2941
02:34:10,560 --> 02:34:12,920
Speaker 1: with this amendment but or with this resolution, but it

2942
02:34:13,040 --> 02:34:16,600
Speaker 1: was made democratically, and like I I support the process

2943
02:34:16,680 --> 02:34:18,120
Speaker 1: by which it was done, which is one of the

2944
02:34:18,200 --> 02:34:20,840
Speaker 1: things I think is is so interesting here that this

2945
02:34:21,000 --> 02:34:23,800
Speaker 1: isn't like um UM a kind of a group of

2946
02:34:23,840 --> 02:34:27,280
Speaker 1: activists at the top making declaration declarations. This is an

2947
02:34:27,400 --> 02:34:32,800
Speaker 1: organization that is really um dedicated itself. Increasingly too, I

2948
02:34:32,840 --> 02:34:35,160
Speaker 1: think a kind of progressive ism that we we haven't

2949
02:34:35,200 --> 02:34:37,120
Speaker 1: really seen in an organized way, and a lot of

2950
02:34:37,280 --> 02:34:41,400
Speaker 1: the American labor movement until recently. Well, when you're talking

2951
02:34:41,440 --> 02:34:44,000
Speaker 1: about democracy in the labor I mean we could be

2952
02:34:44,080 --> 02:34:46,959
Speaker 1: just as well talking about democracies in society as such.

2953
02:34:48,320 --> 02:34:52,040
Speaker 1: The fact is is that organized labor today is not

2954
02:34:52,280 --> 02:34:55,160
Speaker 1: particularly democratic and we're looking to change that, and our

2955
02:34:55,240 --> 02:34:58,120
Speaker 1: world is not particularly democratic now. The vision that we

2956
02:34:58,240 --> 02:35:01,279
Speaker 1: hold our slate, our progre us of slate called United,

2957
02:35:02,200 --> 02:35:06,519
Speaker 1: is one where we increased the means for direct protruciserary democracy,

2958
02:35:06,600 --> 02:35:10,000
Speaker 1: both within labor and within our society. So of course

2959
02:35:10,120 --> 02:35:11,680
Speaker 1: we're going to go to our members and our rank

2960
02:35:11,760 --> 02:35:14,080
Speaker 1: and file and ask them to debate the issues of

2961
02:35:14,120 --> 02:35:17,240
Speaker 1: our day and ultimately to make a decision on these

2962
02:35:17,320 --> 02:35:21,840
Speaker 1: major political and social issues. This was one we again,

2963
02:35:22,000 --> 02:35:24,920
Speaker 1: we do believe that people need to have a rite,

2964
02:35:24,920 --> 02:35:27,040
Speaker 1: the working class needs have a right to defend itself,

2965
02:35:27,440 --> 02:35:30,920
Speaker 1: and we can't bury our head in the stand. Anybody

2966
02:35:31,000 --> 02:35:33,480
Speaker 1: that's even followed a little bit of the news lately

2967
02:35:33,760 --> 02:35:40,680
Speaker 1: will know that between November up until late January, we

2968
02:35:40,840 --> 02:35:45,560
Speaker 1: were one general shy of a coup in this country,

2969
02:35:46,240 --> 02:35:49,160
Speaker 1: in the upside down world that we're now living in.

2970
02:35:49,800 --> 02:35:51,880
Speaker 1: It was because of the joint chiefs of Staff and

2971
02:35:51,920 --> 02:35:54,080
Speaker 1: the head of the c i A not supporting a

2972
02:35:54,200 --> 02:35:58,000
Speaker 1: coup that a neo fascist cou didn't totally in fold

2973
02:35:58,080 --> 02:36:01,360
Speaker 1: materialized in a more mature form. Let that sink inform

2974
02:36:01,400 --> 02:36:04,680
Speaker 1: it our democracy, or the vestiges of the democracy we

2975
02:36:04,760 --> 02:36:09,320
Speaker 1: have in the United States right now is precarious. Uh.

2976
02:36:09,560 --> 02:36:12,400
Speaker 1: They just because they've been there for two hundred years

2977
02:36:12,440 --> 02:36:15,040
Speaker 1: doesn't mean they're gonna be there tomorrow. The new playbook

2978
02:36:15,200 --> 02:36:19,680
Speaker 1: from an increasingly far right Republican Party is to limit

2979
02:36:20,120 --> 02:36:23,080
Speaker 1: as much as they possibly could a people's right to

2980
02:36:23,520 --> 02:36:26,200
Speaker 1: vote and to participate in the political process. We see

2981
02:36:26,200 --> 02:36:29,359
Speaker 1: this happening in Texas, We see this happening in Georgia.

2982
02:36:29,440 --> 02:36:32,039
Speaker 1: We see this happening in Florida. We see this happening

2983
02:36:32,080 --> 02:36:34,600
Speaker 1: in Red. Uh. I shouldn't say red, but I should

2984
02:36:34,600 --> 02:36:39,480
Speaker 1: say Republican states all throughout the US. So these are dangerous,

2985
02:36:39,560 --> 02:36:43,920
Speaker 1: dangerous times, right, so dangerous that our top generals were

2986
02:36:43,959 --> 02:36:47,160
Speaker 1: trying to decide what their position would be and make

2987
02:36:47,280 --> 02:36:52,080
Speaker 1: plans in case a coup, a full encoup, not just

2988
02:36:52,240 --> 02:36:54,600
Speaker 1: a hint of a coup, came into being within the

2989
02:36:54,680 --> 02:36:59,240
Speaker 1: last year of our republic. Now, given those realities and

2990
02:36:59,400 --> 02:37:02,160
Speaker 1: giving the eyes of the far right, given that our

2991
02:37:02,280 --> 02:37:05,960
Speaker 1: former president Donald Trump told the neo fascist Proud Boys

2992
02:37:06,080 --> 02:37:09,959
Speaker 1: to stand what did you say, stand back and stand by? Yeah,

2993
02:37:10,120 --> 02:37:14,000
Speaker 1: that's right. And now at least they claimed that forty

2994
02:37:14,080 --> 02:37:17,560
Speaker 1: thous members around the United States and they are armed. Uh,

2995
02:37:18,040 --> 02:37:20,400
Speaker 1: you know, we can't just rest in our hurelds and

2996
02:37:20,600 --> 02:37:23,360
Speaker 1: and pretend that the state as such is going to

2997
02:37:23,480 --> 02:37:28,840
Speaker 1: keep us safe. So it seems prudent and reasonable for

2998
02:37:29,000 --> 02:37:31,160
Speaker 1: us to have taken the action and say we defend

2999
02:37:31,480 --> 02:37:37,440
Speaker 1: our constitutional right to bear arms as intended to defend

3000
02:37:37,520 --> 02:37:40,760
Speaker 1: our communities. They defend our unions, to defend the working class.

3001
02:37:41,080 --> 02:37:42,720
Speaker 1: And one of the things that because we were just

3002
02:37:42,840 --> 02:37:45,920
Speaker 1: talking about the the coup that very nearly got pulled

3003
02:37:45,959 --> 02:37:49,520
Speaker 1: off your organization, at least in UH I believe it

3004
02:37:49,600 --> 02:37:52,560
Speaker 1: was right after the election, issued a statement that if

3005
02:37:52,640 --> 02:37:57,000
Speaker 1: the president illegally attempted to stay in power, the former president,

3006
02:37:57,120 --> 02:37:59,840
Speaker 1: you would participate in an attempt to help organize a

3007
02:38:00,000 --> 02:38:02,879
Speaker 1: general strike. Now that's something we talk about a lot

3008
02:38:03,000 --> 02:38:05,240
Speaker 1: on this show. We're big believers in the potential of

3009
02:38:05,280 --> 02:38:09,680
Speaker 1: a general strike. Were also big believers that the kind

3010
02:38:09,720 --> 02:38:11,720
Speaker 1: of general strike that we need to i don't know,

3011
02:38:12,040 --> 02:38:14,640
Speaker 1: potentially get climate justice and a number of other major

3012
02:38:14,760 --> 02:38:17,760
Speaker 1: things is an undertaking on par with the space race.

3013
02:38:17,840 --> 02:38:21,240
Speaker 1: You know, you're talking about an enormous task. I'm really

3014
02:38:21,280 --> 02:38:24,160
Speaker 1: interested in picking your brain on when we talk about

3015
02:38:24,160 --> 02:38:27,720
Speaker 1: a national general strike, what is the kind of infrastructure

3016
02:38:27,840 --> 02:38:30,400
Speaker 1: that's actually necessary to make something like that feasible, because

3017
02:38:30,400 --> 02:38:32,320
Speaker 1: there's a lot of talk on like Twitter and Facebook

3018
02:38:32,360 --> 02:38:34,120
Speaker 1: of like, let's just do a general strike on this

3019
02:38:34,320 --> 02:38:39,040
Speaker 1: day in October I six months doesn't go by, as

3020
02:38:39,120 --> 02:38:41,480
Speaker 1: President f l C I o ver month where I

3021
02:38:41,520 --> 02:38:43,880
Speaker 1: don't left this group of some kind of contacted me

3022
02:38:44,000 --> 02:38:47,000
Speaker 1: to endorse their general strike, right going to shut down

3023
02:38:47,080 --> 02:38:50,400
Speaker 1: on datas and it's yet to happen, at least in

3024
02:38:50,440 --> 02:38:54,080
Speaker 1: our country. So that's a great question. A couple of things.

3025
02:38:54,840 --> 02:38:58,920
Speaker 1: When we voted, and again this wasn't a decision of

3026
02:38:59,000 --> 02:39:01,320
Speaker 1: myself and the leadership. This was a decision we went

3027
02:39:01,440 --> 02:39:03,720
Speaker 1: back to the rank and file with to our to

3028
02:39:03,800 --> 02:39:08,360
Speaker 1: one of our conventions of our delegates, after our long debate,

3029
02:39:08,760 --> 02:39:11,720
Speaker 1: voted to authorize the elected deecutive Board to call for

3030
02:39:11,800 --> 02:39:14,080
Speaker 1: a general strike in the event of a coup, in

3031
02:39:14,160 --> 02:39:18,000
Speaker 1: the event that there wasn't transfer power on January as

3032
02:39:18,080 --> 02:39:22,600
Speaker 1: the constitution requires. It was our feeling that in that

3033
02:39:23,040 --> 02:39:27,640
Speaker 1: very specific space and time, in that very specific political climate,

3034
02:39:28,840 --> 02:39:32,320
Speaker 1: um we would be able to call for such a

3035
02:39:32,400 --> 02:39:35,080
Speaker 1: strike and with a serious amount of work and a

3036
02:39:35,120 --> 02:39:38,160
Speaker 1: serious amount of organizing, pull that off and make that happen.

3037
02:39:38,240 --> 02:39:40,000
Speaker 1: And the thought was if we could do it in Vermont,

3038
02:39:40,040 --> 02:39:42,640
Speaker 1: because the call was a further mon channel strike, then

3039
02:39:42,680 --> 02:39:45,400
Speaker 1: it could spread to other states, which would be absolutely

3040
02:39:45,480 --> 02:39:49,920
Speaker 1: necessary if there was if our country descended into a

3041
02:39:50,000 --> 02:39:54,520
Speaker 1: fascist dictatorship of some sort. But generally speaking, when we

3042
02:39:54,600 --> 02:39:56,680
Speaker 1: talked about climate issues, when we talked about the fact

3043
02:39:56,760 --> 02:39:59,440
Speaker 1: that millions of Americans don't have healthcare or aren't paid

3044
02:39:59,520 --> 02:40:02,120
Speaker 1: little Way ages, all of these issues are at least

3045
02:40:02,160 --> 02:40:05,680
Speaker 1: these issues together certainly warrant us looking at things like

3046
02:40:05,800 --> 02:40:07,880
Speaker 1: a general strike, but they're a bit it's a bit

3047
02:40:07,959 --> 02:40:10,600
Speaker 1: phind this guide to think that, hey, we got ten

3048
02:40:10,680 --> 02:40:13,119
Speaker 1: grade issues that we want to see progress on, we're

3049
02:40:13,120 --> 02:40:15,200
Speaker 1: gonna call for our strike is going to happen. The

3050
02:40:15,320 --> 02:40:18,800
Speaker 1: infrastructure is not there, nor is the political will within

3051
02:40:18,879 --> 02:40:21,879
Speaker 1: the large labor bodies at this praised present time. Without

3052
02:40:22,000 --> 02:40:24,920
Speaker 1: participation from organized labor, first of all, I don't think

3053
02:40:24,920 --> 02:40:27,240
Speaker 1: anything is going to happen. So you're gonna have to

3054
02:40:27,320 --> 02:40:29,840
Speaker 1: achieve buy in a certain level. But even with buying

3055
02:40:30,080 --> 02:40:34,360
Speaker 1: from key leaders or even a localized shop stewards, you

3056
02:40:34,520 --> 02:40:37,480
Speaker 1: still need to have infrastructure in place. So one of

3057
02:40:37,560 --> 02:40:40,360
Speaker 1: the things that lacks in the a f l C

3058
02:40:40,440 --> 02:40:42,680
Speaker 1: I O As a national organization, we don't have an

3059
02:40:42,760 --> 02:40:47,280
Speaker 1: effective network of local union contacts in every shop, at

3060
02:40:47,400 --> 02:40:51,440
Speaker 1: every shift, in every factory that's represented by union, let

3061
02:40:51,480 --> 02:40:56,000
Speaker 1: alone the majority of workplaces at this point that aren't unionized.

3062
02:40:56,520 --> 02:40:59,360
Speaker 1: So what our top priority is as far as the

3063
02:40:59,440 --> 02:41:02,440
Speaker 1: Vermontney fail diegos over the next two years is to

3064
02:41:02,600 --> 02:41:07,080
Speaker 1: build a network of local union contacts in every single

3065
02:41:07,160 --> 02:41:09,520
Speaker 1: shop and every single shift that we represent folks here

3066
02:41:09,520 --> 02:41:12,080
Speaker 1: in Vermont. So we see this as a way to

3067
02:41:12,360 --> 02:41:15,320
Speaker 1: increase communication. Without communication, you're not going to be able

3068
02:41:15,320 --> 02:41:18,360
Speaker 1: to pull off mass mobilizations and with and also you're

3069
02:41:18,400 --> 02:41:21,840
Speaker 1: not gonna be able to conduct mass education on issues X,

3070
02:41:22,000 --> 02:41:25,119
Speaker 1: Y or Z. So over a period of two years,

3071
02:41:25,240 --> 02:41:28,400
Speaker 1: we're looking to build this network that would function not

3072
02:41:28,560 --> 02:41:32,160
Speaker 1: as a one way means of communication, but almost a

3073
02:41:32,280 --> 02:41:34,640
Speaker 1: two or three way. Imagine that this is a way

3074
02:41:34,680 --> 02:41:36,920
Speaker 1: for the rank and file to communicate up to the leaders.

3075
02:41:37,560 --> 02:41:39,880
Speaker 1: This is a way for the leadership to communicate down

3076
02:41:40,000 --> 02:41:42,039
Speaker 1: to the ranks, I mean down to the lunch room

3077
02:41:42,160 --> 02:41:44,320
Speaker 1: level of what it means to be in a union shop.

3078
02:41:44,959 --> 02:41:47,960
Speaker 1: And also ideally it's going to be a way for

3079
02:41:48,440 --> 02:41:53,400
Speaker 1: local union leaders to horizontally communicate with each other. With

3080
02:41:53,640 --> 02:41:56,720
Speaker 1: such a structure in place on a grand scale, on

3081
02:41:56,800 --> 02:41:59,840
Speaker 1: a state scale, on a federal scale, then things like

3082
02:42:00,200 --> 02:42:04,360
Speaker 1: organized general strikes over political issues and social issues become feasible.

3083
02:42:04,920 --> 02:42:07,120
Speaker 1: And even when they're feasible, though, then we still have

3084
02:42:07,240 --> 02:42:10,400
Speaker 1: the political question of you know, will they be supported

3085
02:42:10,400 --> 02:42:13,160
Speaker 1: by the internationals, will they be supported by the executive

3086
02:42:13,160 --> 02:42:15,600
Speaker 1: board of the National a f c O. And that's

3087
02:42:15,600 --> 02:42:18,880
Speaker 1: a huge conversation, you know. So, Yeah, it's interesting to

3088
02:42:18,920 --> 02:42:21,360
Speaker 1: me hearing your perspective on this, because my experience with

3089
02:42:21,480 --> 02:42:24,680
Speaker 1: kind of activism UM has been much more of kind

3090
02:42:24,720 --> 02:42:27,640
Speaker 1: of the decentralized and kind of much more recent groups,

3091
02:42:27,680 --> 02:42:31,080
Speaker 1: you know, since occupy. Um, you're dealing with these these

3092
02:42:31,160 --> 02:42:33,000
Speaker 1: structures that in a lot of cases or I mean

3093
02:42:33,000 --> 02:42:34,520
Speaker 1: the A f l c I O goes back like

3094
02:42:34,600 --> 02:42:38,200
Speaker 1: what like a century, right one one way or the other. Yeah,

3095
02:42:38,760 --> 02:42:41,840
Speaker 1: you know, I think, UM, because of kind of how

3096
02:42:42,720 --> 02:42:45,160
Speaker 1: shall I say online, a lot of the discussion about

3097
02:42:45,160 --> 02:42:48,800
Speaker 1: this stuff seems to be organized labor often gets left out.

3098
02:42:48,840 --> 02:42:50,039
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I think is most

3099
02:42:50,080 --> 02:42:54,680
Speaker 1: important when talking about the value that organized labor has

3100
02:42:54,720 --> 02:42:56,640
Speaker 1: in any kind of discussion if a general strike is

3101
02:42:56,680 --> 02:43:02,000
Speaker 1: what happened during the during the Jet UH negotiations or

3102
02:43:02,000 --> 02:43:03,840
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call them in twenty nineteen, where

3103
02:43:03,920 --> 02:43:08,199
Speaker 1: you you had UM airline workers threatening a general strike

3104
02:43:08,320 --> 02:43:11,440
Speaker 1: that effectively brought it into too a president's saber rattling

3105
02:43:11,560 --> 02:43:16,360
Speaker 1: over over the budget like it's it's president Sarah Nelson. Yeah,

3106
02:43:16,640 --> 02:43:18,320
Speaker 1: headlines over that and that was the right thing to

3107
02:43:18,440 --> 02:43:22,880
Speaker 1: do about her and would love to sear in a

3108
02:43:23,080 --> 02:43:26,720
Speaker 1: stronger positional leadership the national level. Well, I'm interested because

3109
02:43:26,720 --> 02:43:29,880
Speaker 1: I I see a lot of potential in Obviously organized

3110
02:43:29,920 --> 02:43:31,960
Speaker 1: labor has had a lot of problems, particularly in the

3111
02:43:32,040 --> 02:43:34,800
Speaker 1: last you know, during my lifetime, UM, And I think

3112
02:43:34,879 --> 02:43:36,920
Speaker 1: part of it is what you said earlier, there's it's

3113
02:43:36,959 --> 02:43:40,440
Speaker 1: not as democratic as it should be at most levels. UM.

3114
02:43:40,720 --> 02:43:44,680
Speaker 1: What you guys have done with United is attempting to

3115
02:43:44,760 --> 02:43:48,840
Speaker 1: reform that, you know within Vermont. I'm wondering, first, how

3116
02:43:48,920 --> 02:43:51,119
Speaker 1: did that kind of come about? You know, twenty nineteen

3117
02:43:51,200 --> 02:43:53,520
Speaker 1: is when you first got got put into office, when

3118
02:43:53,600 --> 02:43:55,280
Speaker 1: when the United State got put in the to the

3119
02:43:55,400 --> 02:43:58,240
Speaker 1: office in Vermont? What was kind of the back story

3120
02:43:58,320 --> 02:44:00,640
Speaker 1: to that? And then my second is kind of what

3121
02:44:00,680 --> 02:44:03,760
Speaker 1: do you see as necessary to like what what what's

3122
02:44:03,959 --> 02:44:06,160
Speaker 1: what's the fight, as you see it, to get stuff

3123
02:44:06,240 --> 02:44:09,200
Speaker 1: like that done on a larger scale around the country.

3124
02:44:10,840 --> 02:44:13,960
Speaker 1: So our story in Vermont is probably a lot like

3125
02:44:14,440 --> 02:44:18,440
Speaker 1: the story of organized labor in many different places. Our

3126
02:44:18,520 --> 02:44:22,600
Speaker 1: starting point. So in two thousand and seventeen, not that

3127
02:44:22,760 --> 02:44:27,360
Speaker 1: long ago, ah, we had a convention with something like

3128
02:44:27,560 --> 02:44:31,280
Speaker 1: twenty or twenty five delegates there. Imagine that twenty delegates

3129
02:44:31,320 --> 02:44:34,000
Speaker 1: representing ten at the time, ten thousand we've grown since

3130
02:44:34,080 --> 02:44:37,720
Speaker 1: the but ten thousand members that's called the democracy. So

3131
02:44:38,600 --> 02:44:42,280
Speaker 1: there was a problem, an existential problem. Now I come

3132
02:44:42,320 --> 02:44:46,800
Speaker 1: out of asked me localeen in the northeast kingdom of Vermont.

3133
02:44:47,320 --> 02:44:50,160
Speaker 1: So when I got together with a number of other

3134
02:44:50,320 --> 02:44:53,720
Speaker 1: leaders from different unions different asked me locals, but also

3135
02:44:54,240 --> 02:44:58,119
Speaker 1: United Academics is part of a f T the building trades.

3136
02:44:58,280 --> 02:45:02,200
Speaker 1: A number of folks, there was a general recognition at

3137
02:45:02,240 --> 02:45:05,600
Speaker 1: the leadership level that something was very wrong. Member participation

3138
02:45:05,879 --> 02:45:08,680
Speaker 1: was weakest can be, and things have to change. And

3139
02:45:08,800 --> 02:45:12,800
Speaker 1: we continually as an organization, you know, with some exceptions,

3140
02:45:12,959 --> 02:45:17,560
Speaker 1: hitch our wagon to the shortcomings that are the Democratic Party.

3141
02:45:18,720 --> 02:45:23,160
Speaker 1: So all of these things together led to inactivity, apathy,

3142
02:45:23,480 --> 02:45:28,200
Speaker 1: and lack of democracy. So we started going around, we

3143
02:45:28,280 --> 02:45:31,199
Speaker 1: started talking with workers, we started talking with shops across

3144
02:45:31,240 --> 02:45:33,160
Speaker 1: the state, and one of the first things that was

3145
02:45:33,240 --> 02:45:35,720
Speaker 1: striking people would say they would know what union there

3146
02:45:35,760 --> 02:45:38,560
Speaker 1: and be at a PW or asking or whatever it was.

3147
02:45:39,320 --> 02:45:41,920
Speaker 1: But we'd say, listen, we're talking. We're thinking about running

3148
02:45:41,920 --> 02:45:44,640
Speaker 1: a slate progressive slave for office with to take the

3149
02:45:44,720 --> 02:45:46,279
Speaker 1: a f l c i O in a new direction.

3150
02:45:46,840 --> 02:45:48,280
Speaker 1: The next thing they would say, is, what's the a

3151
02:45:48,400 --> 02:45:53,480
Speaker 1: f l c I M think about that? Right, workers involved,

3152
02:45:53,600 --> 02:45:56,760
Speaker 1: some of which were union stewarts and their locals didn't

3153
02:45:56,800 --> 02:45:58,760
Speaker 1: even know what the a f l c I O was.

3154
02:45:59,440 --> 02:46:02,200
Speaker 1: So that was our starting point. It was an excellent

3155
02:46:02,600 --> 02:46:07,360
Speaker 1: crisis of labor. And mind you, during these what I

3156
02:46:07,400 --> 02:46:12,240
Speaker 1: would call some dark periods, we would often endorse a

3157
02:46:12,400 --> 02:46:16,519
Speaker 1: hundred candidates for state House, nearly all of which being Democrats,

3158
02:46:17,520 --> 02:46:20,680
Speaker 1: and then we they would win. They would win their elections,

3159
02:46:21,000 --> 02:46:24,960
Speaker 1: like largely our candidates win, and then we get nothing

3160
02:46:25,360 --> 02:46:27,760
Speaker 1: in the state House. Right, There'd be no labor bill,

3161
02:46:27,800 --> 02:46:30,240
Speaker 1: there'd be no advance in a card check. Differently before

3162
02:46:30,280 --> 02:46:33,480
Speaker 1: the organized labor and yet we keep repeating the same

3163
02:46:33,560 --> 02:46:36,080
Speaker 1: mistake year and year out and not figure out that

3164
02:46:36,200 --> 02:46:39,959
Speaker 1: something was wrong. So when we formed the United State

3165
02:46:40,080 --> 02:46:42,280
Speaker 1: as a coalition of a number of different unions to

3166
02:46:42,360 --> 02:46:45,200
Speaker 1: recognized it was time for change, we really brought the

3167
02:46:45,280 --> 02:46:48,560
Speaker 1: discussion into the grassroots level. We developed a ten point

3168
02:46:48,680 --> 02:46:51,520
Speaker 1: program we called our little read Book. It's now the

3169
02:46:51,600 --> 02:46:54,880
Speaker 1: policy and the platform of the Vermont a fl c I,

3170
02:46:55,720 --> 02:46:58,800
Speaker 1: and we ran an organized campaign based on that right

3171
02:46:58,800 --> 02:47:03,039
Speaker 1: at a very local level. And here we did all

3172
02:47:03,120 --> 02:47:05,080
Speaker 1: the things that you know you should be doing, the

3173
02:47:05,280 --> 02:47:08,040
Speaker 1: phone calls, the emails, the shop visits, all of this

3174
02:47:08,480 --> 02:47:10,960
Speaker 1: and created a sense of excitement going into our two

3175
02:47:11,360 --> 02:47:15,920
Speaker 1: nine convention. Our two thousand nineteen convention with over if

3176
02:47:15,959 --> 02:47:18,640
Speaker 1: I recall over a hundred and five delegates and alternates,

3177
02:47:19,680 --> 02:47:23,280
Speaker 1: was the largest convention we had up here in in

3178
02:47:23,440 --> 02:47:27,160
Speaker 1: something like thirty plus years. So that was an exciting

3179
02:47:27,240 --> 02:47:30,200
Speaker 1: atmosphere where something was going to be different and something

3180
02:47:30,400 --> 02:47:34,000
Speaker 1: was going to change right. So we swept. We essentially

3181
02:47:34,080 --> 02:47:36,760
Speaker 1: slept those elections. We want all the seats except for one.

3182
02:47:37,360 --> 02:47:39,959
Speaker 1: We had a follow up convention in two UM sorry

3183
02:47:40,000 --> 02:47:43,800
Speaker 1: election in two where we won every single seat, and

3184
02:47:43,959 --> 02:47:47,120
Speaker 1: then in the last election UM we won all seats

3185
02:47:48,000 --> 02:47:50,640
Speaker 1: except for one where one person who's a good, good

3186
02:47:50,720 --> 02:47:54,200
Speaker 1: person from the building trades ran but was not part

3187
02:47:54,240 --> 02:47:57,120
Speaker 1: of our state. So the real question is what have

3188
02:47:57,240 --> 02:47:59,600
Speaker 1: we done in the intern How are we changing that

3189
02:47:59,720 --> 02:48:02,040
Speaker 1: direct and how are we changing trying to seek to

3190
02:48:02,120 --> 02:48:04,720
Speaker 1: change the capacity of labor, and what lessons does it

3191
02:48:04,760 --> 02:48:09,960
Speaker 1: add to the national room? How would suppose so on that?

3192
02:48:10,120 --> 02:48:12,040
Speaker 1: For one of the first things we did is we

3193
02:48:12,120 --> 02:48:14,880
Speaker 1: took money out of our lobbying operation and put it

3194
02:48:14,959 --> 02:48:18,920
Speaker 1: into an organizing department, whereby we would hire and we

3195
02:48:19,040 --> 02:48:22,720
Speaker 1: have hired on call organizers to assist our affiliates in

3196
02:48:22,800 --> 02:48:26,480
Speaker 1: either new organizing or internal organizing, therefore delivering an actual

3197
02:48:26,600 --> 02:48:30,000
Speaker 1: benefits to our affiliate unions. Now, mind you, we represent

3198
02:48:30,120 --> 02:48:32,800
Speaker 1: just about every sector of workers all across the state,

3199
02:48:33,320 --> 02:48:39,640
Speaker 1: but forever they very rarely got a concrete, measurable acts

3200
02:48:39,680 --> 02:48:43,119
Speaker 1: of solidarity from the Federation as such, right because all

3201
02:48:43,160 --> 02:48:45,320
Speaker 1: of a lot of too many of the resources were

3202
02:48:45,360 --> 02:48:48,360
Speaker 1: put in belomming. And we also took a critical eye

3203
02:48:48,440 --> 02:48:53,320
Speaker 1: towards the Democratic Party, and recently we've instead endorsed the

3204
02:48:53,600 --> 02:48:57,840
Speaker 1: Social Democratic for more progressive party slates and their runs

3205
02:48:57,959 --> 02:49:01,200
Speaker 1: for State House and state at office. In many cases,

3206
02:49:01,840 --> 02:49:04,720
Speaker 1: so we've done a few things differently we're continuing to

3207
02:49:04,760 --> 02:49:07,400
Speaker 1: do things differently. We've expanded the size of our executive

3208
02:49:07,400 --> 02:49:10,440
Speaker 1: board so you we elect more leaders now. We've more

3209
02:49:10,520 --> 02:49:12,960
Speaker 1: than double the size of the delegates afforded to each

3210
02:49:13,040 --> 02:49:15,520
Speaker 1: local so we could have more rank and foot file

3211
02:49:15,600 --> 02:49:20,080
Speaker 1: voices present when we're meeting at a convention. And we've

3212
02:49:20,160 --> 02:49:24,560
Speaker 1: taken a strong um social justice position where we think

3213
02:49:24,640 --> 02:49:28,160
Speaker 1: that organized labor must work very closely in an alliance,

3214
02:49:28,240 --> 02:49:31,879
Speaker 1: form alliances with groups like Migrant Justice or Black Perspective

3215
02:49:32,640 --> 02:49:37,400
Speaker 1: or environmental organizations like three fifty dot org. And we've

3216
02:49:37,440 --> 02:49:39,600
Speaker 1: done those things, worked on their issues where we have

3217
02:49:39,720 --> 02:49:42,000
Speaker 1: common interests, and we've asked them to support us on

3218
02:49:42,160 --> 02:49:45,720
Speaker 1: art issues where where they may have some common interests.

3219
02:49:46,160 --> 02:49:48,320
Speaker 1: So those are things that are very different that the

3220
02:49:48,440 --> 02:49:52,600
Speaker 1: national AFLC has not doing. Other state labor federations largely

3221
02:49:53,000 --> 02:49:56,640
Speaker 1: aren't doing enough. And we're hoping now to build that out.

3222
02:49:57,320 --> 02:50:02,480
Speaker 1: And we're engaging conversations seeking to form a national progressive

3223
02:50:02,520 --> 02:50:07,120
Speaker 1: Caucus within the National Act. And I think that's so

3224
02:50:07,240 --> 02:50:09,880
Speaker 1: important when you talk about kind of on the national

3225
02:50:10,000 --> 02:50:16,280
Speaker 1: level for progressives number one to not not continually kind

3226
02:50:16,280 --> 02:50:19,720
Speaker 1: of reflectively support the Democratic Party when the Democratics parties

3227
02:50:20,000 --> 02:50:22,600
Speaker 1: is failing progressives, which you know, we have a perfect

3228
02:50:22,720 --> 02:50:27,480
Speaker 1: case study right now in Congress with the the Reconciliation Bill. Um.

3229
02:50:27,800 --> 02:50:31,760
Speaker 1: It often does seem like such an insurmountable task just

3230
02:50:31,920 --> 02:50:35,240
Speaker 1: because the inability like a bill, the three point five

3231
02:50:35,280 --> 02:50:38,600
Speaker 1: trillion dollar infrastructure bill, is so widely supported by Americans,

3232
02:50:39,200 --> 02:50:41,880
Speaker 1: but it it just keeps coming down to this tiny

3233
02:50:41,959 --> 02:50:47,160
Speaker 1: number of folks with uh, you know, financial interests and donors, um,

3234
02:50:47,360 --> 02:50:50,160
Speaker 1: who are who are pushing against something that's widely supported.

3235
02:50:50,240 --> 02:50:54,000
Speaker 1: And I feel um optimistic when I look at state

3236
02:50:54,120 --> 02:50:57,000
Speaker 1: organizations like what y'all are doing and the fact that

3237
02:50:57,120 --> 02:51:00,440
Speaker 1: I can see something building, but I also it does

3238
02:51:00,560 --> 02:51:03,600
Speaker 1: it is such a titanic task to imagine translating that

3239
02:51:03,720 --> 02:51:05,800
Speaker 1: on a national scale in a way that actually gets

3240
02:51:05,879 --> 02:51:08,440
Speaker 1: us the things that you know, we we really can't

3241
02:51:08,480 --> 02:51:11,120
Speaker 1: wait for when you're talking about some of this infrastructure stuff,

3242
02:51:11,120 --> 02:51:13,640
Speaker 1: when you're talking about healthcare, when you're talking about climate justice, Like,

3243
02:51:14,560 --> 02:51:17,160
Speaker 1: I do feel the clock ticking um, and I'm wondering

3244
02:51:17,200 --> 02:51:19,640
Speaker 1: what you see as the hope on the national scale

3245
02:51:19,720 --> 02:51:26,200
Speaker 1: for actually putting some muscle behind the progressive movement. Well, look,

3246
02:51:26,240 --> 02:51:29,720
Speaker 1: it's not just the the issues of the Infrastructure bill

3247
02:51:29,800 --> 02:51:32,600
Speaker 1: and the budget bill. It's also the Proact right the

3248
02:51:33,400 --> 02:51:37,360
Speaker 1: bill that is language in the Senate. And let's not

3249
02:51:37,560 --> 02:51:41,680
Speaker 1: lose track of the fact that those efforts are all

3250
02:51:41,920 --> 02:51:46,080
Speaker 1: stalling and likely very likely to fail. And I hope

3251
02:51:46,120 --> 02:51:50,240
Speaker 1: they don't because of Democrats, because the Democratic Party is

3252
02:51:50,320 --> 02:51:52,560
Speaker 1: not united. They ran on a platform saying they were

3253
02:51:52,600 --> 02:51:54,800
Speaker 1: going to do X, Y and Z, and now when

3254
02:51:54,840 --> 02:51:56,600
Speaker 1: they're in a position to carry it out, they are

3255
02:51:56,680 --> 02:52:00,120
Speaker 1: not going to do it. And Joe Manchin uh far

3256
02:52:00,160 --> 02:52:03,000
Speaker 1: as I'm concerned, uh column a class trader, but I

3257
02:52:03,040 --> 02:52:05,280
Speaker 1: don't think he's ever was part of the working class.

3258
02:52:06,160 --> 02:52:08,600
Speaker 1: He claims to support the Proact, but in the same

3259
02:52:08,640 --> 02:52:11,120
Speaker 1: breath he he won't get rid of the filibuster. So,

3260
02:52:11,360 --> 02:52:13,600
Speaker 1: I mean, that's absolute bullshit as far as I'm concerned.

3261
02:52:14,120 --> 02:52:17,560
Speaker 1: So how do we change that? Well, the National a

3262
02:52:17,720 --> 02:52:20,480
Speaker 1: f l c I O puts millions and millions and

3263
02:52:20,560 --> 02:52:24,400
Speaker 1: millions of dollars into elections. We have gotten so many

3264
02:52:24,400 --> 02:52:28,240
Speaker 1: of these people elected and back them in Arizona and

3265
02:52:28,280 --> 02:52:31,240
Speaker 1: West Virginia, you name it, and then we get nothing back.

3266
02:52:31,720 --> 02:52:34,240
Speaker 1: If we were to take that money instead and put

3267
02:52:34,320 --> 02:52:39,599
Speaker 1: it into a robust new organizing department or a recrafted

3268
02:52:39,720 --> 02:52:45,280
Speaker 1: organizing department and actually assigned reel on the ground organizers

3269
02:52:45,640 --> 02:52:48,320
Speaker 1: in every single state in the country to help our affiliates,

3270
02:52:48,400 --> 02:52:52,279
Speaker 1: to help our state federations and their affiliates to internally organized,

3271
02:52:52,320 --> 02:52:54,160
Speaker 1: to build a kind of network I talked was talking

3272
02:52:54,160 --> 02:52:56,920
Speaker 1: to me about before, and to be active and build

3273
02:52:56,920 --> 02:53:00,280
Speaker 1: alliance as the social justice group, our power would be

3274
02:53:00,640 --> 02:53:04,840
Speaker 1: amplified five million fold. This is the way we do it.

3275
02:53:05,200 --> 02:53:07,960
Speaker 1: Politicians aren't going to do what's right because it's right.

3276
02:53:08,360 --> 02:53:10,640
Speaker 1: Politicians are gonna do what's right when they feel so

3277
02:53:10,760 --> 02:53:13,480
Speaker 1: much pressure that they have to do it. Now, the

3278
02:53:13,640 --> 02:53:16,760
Speaker 1: victories that we saw for working people during the Great

3279
02:53:16,800 --> 02:53:20,760
Speaker 1: Depression under FDR, that wasn't just because FDR thought, you know,

3280
02:53:20,879 --> 02:53:22,840
Speaker 1: this is the right thing to do. It's because people

3281
02:53:22,879 --> 02:53:25,400
Speaker 1: are going on strike, because people were organized because they

3282
02:53:25,440 --> 02:53:29,119
Speaker 1: were scared of revolutionary change in this country. So turned

3283
02:53:29,200 --> 02:53:34,080
Speaker 1: to meaningful, true, true um major reforms as a way

3284
02:53:34,160 --> 02:53:38,360
Speaker 1: to blunt that perceived threat that they have. And that's

3285
02:53:38,400 --> 02:53:40,840
Speaker 1: what we got to get back to. Not our power

3286
02:53:40,959 --> 02:53:43,600
Speaker 1: is never gonna grow from people who are wearing ties

3287
02:53:43,680 --> 02:53:46,000
Speaker 1: in Washington. Our power is gonna grow based on our

3288
02:53:46,080 --> 02:53:49,640
Speaker 1: solidarity on the shop floor and in our communities. So

3289
02:53:49,800 --> 02:53:51,520
Speaker 1: that's the direction we gotta go, and we got to

3290
02:53:51,560 --> 02:53:55,040
Speaker 1: do that rapidly, very rapidly. It's been clear to me

3291
02:53:55,120 --> 02:53:58,720
Speaker 1: for quite a while both that the reason workers gained

3292
02:53:58,800 --> 02:54:01,120
Speaker 1: so much in the way of the Great Depression and

3293
02:54:01,360 --> 02:54:02,960
Speaker 1: the only kind of hope we have for doing that

3294
02:54:03,040 --> 02:54:05,960
Speaker 1: now is UM, they have to be scared, you know,

3295
02:54:06,080 --> 02:54:08,200
Speaker 1: to an extent, they have to be scared of of

3296
02:54:08,400 --> 02:54:11,560
Speaker 1: what's arrayed against them, both in its organization and in

3297
02:54:11,640 --> 02:54:17,360
Speaker 1: its ability to disrupt things. UM. And I'm wondering what

3298
02:54:17,520 --> 02:54:21,160
Speaker 1: you think people listening, people UM, who maybe are not

3299
02:54:21,320 --> 02:54:24,640
Speaker 1: involved in organized labor, Like what what what do you

3300
02:54:24,760 --> 02:54:28,640
Speaker 1: think people can do to further those ends? Like this

3301
02:54:28,879 --> 02:54:30,960
Speaker 1: is like when we when we start talking about national

3302
02:54:31,040 --> 02:54:33,240
Speaker 1: level a f l C, I O politics, that's not

3303
02:54:33,400 --> 02:54:36,840
Speaker 1: something I think most people listening feel like they have

3304
02:54:37,200 --> 02:54:40,040
Speaker 1: any kind of ability to influence. Um, what do you

3305
02:54:40,080 --> 02:54:42,440
Speaker 1: think they can influence? What do you think people can

3306
02:54:42,520 --> 02:54:47,000
Speaker 1: be doing to build that kind of capacity. Well, you

3307
02:54:47,080 --> 02:54:50,600
Speaker 1: gotta be active, and you've got to engage in the

3308
02:54:51,040 --> 02:54:54,880
Speaker 1: political and social movements. But also most folks, you know,

3309
02:54:54,920 --> 02:54:56,920
Speaker 1: they're going to have a job of some time and

3310
02:54:57,040 --> 02:54:59,000
Speaker 1: a lot of folks aren't getting treated the way they

3311
02:54:59,040 --> 02:55:00,760
Speaker 1: should in their job. Don't care if you work in

3312
02:55:00,760 --> 02:55:03,480
Speaker 1: a coffee shop, in a restaurant, or in a gas station,

3313
02:55:04,400 --> 02:55:08,080
Speaker 1: or in manufacturing, and you could start by organizing with

3314
02:55:08,160 --> 02:55:11,160
Speaker 1: your coworkers to form a union. Today, you know, you

3315
02:55:11,240 --> 02:55:13,840
Speaker 1: could reach out to a local union to ask for

3316
02:55:13,920 --> 02:55:15,760
Speaker 1: help where you could do it on your own. Frankly,

3317
02:55:16,240 --> 02:55:18,680
Speaker 1: but if we're not organized as working people, and we

3318
02:55:18,760 --> 02:55:22,440
Speaker 1: are we are most of the world. If we're not

3319
02:55:22,680 --> 02:55:25,520
Speaker 1: organized amongst ourselves, we're not going to be able to

3320
02:55:26,280 --> 02:55:28,600
Speaker 1: become that expression of power that we need to be

3321
02:55:29,240 --> 02:55:31,200
Speaker 1: in order to create the change. If we're just a

3322
02:55:31,280 --> 02:55:36,120
Speaker 1: collection of individuals, then the ruling class, the wealthy, the powerful,

3323
02:55:36,200 --> 02:55:39,160
Speaker 1: the elite, they're gonna have all their ducks in a

3324
02:55:39,280 --> 02:55:42,800
Speaker 1: row to keep us divided and to keep their foot

3325
02:55:42,840 --> 02:55:45,480
Speaker 1: on the pedal of the status quo. So we need

3326
02:55:45,560 --> 02:55:48,080
Speaker 1: to come together, We need to organize in the natural

3327
02:55:48,160 --> 02:55:52,840
Speaker 1: place to organize is in the workplace. In my opinion, yeah,

3328
02:55:52,920 --> 02:55:55,880
Speaker 1: I mean it. It is the natural place to organize.

3329
02:55:56,000 --> 02:55:59,120
Speaker 1: It's also become an increasingly difficult place to organize. We

3330
02:55:59,160 --> 02:56:02,760
Speaker 1: all watch what Amazon did in Bessemer this year, um

3331
02:56:02,959 --> 02:56:06,840
Speaker 1: and and that fight is still ongoing to an extent. Um,

3332
02:56:07,520 --> 02:56:11,360
Speaker 1: but it is Uh, it is a continuing challenge, um

3333
02:56:12,320 --> 02:56:16,200
Speaker 1: to to actually effectively unionized in a lot of the

3334
02:56:16,240 --> 02:56:19,360
Speaker 1: industries where it matters most you know, um, like we

3335
02:56:19,440 --> 02:56:22,960
Speaker 1: have some choke point industries, like we talked about aircraft

3336
02:56:23,000 --> 02:56:25,680
Speaker 1: employees that are heavily unionized, thankfully, and that do have

3337
02:56:25,800 --> 02:56:28,360
Speaker 1: a lot of power, as has been demonstrated recently when

3338
02:56:28,440 --> 02:56:31,800
Speaker 1: they when they go to the mat. Um. But I

3339
02:56:32,120 --> 02:56:35,040
Speaker 1: I'm interested in kind of we we've got, you know,

3340
02:56:35,120 --> 02:56:39,200
Speaker 1: Amazon employees is really one of the areas that I'm

3341
02:56:39,440 --> 02:56:42,360
Speaker 1: looking at where, my god, if if we could actually

3342
02:56:42,480 --> 02:56:45,280
Speaker 1: if something significant could actually get off the ground and

3343
02:56:45,480 --> 02:56:48,480
Speaker 1: a significant number of those workers could get organized, it

3344
02:56:48,560 --> 02:56:51,920
Speaker 1: could make a real difference. Um. But you know you've

3345
02:56:52,040 --> 02:56:56,160
Speaker 1: got effectively what are community organizations for the most part

3346
02:56:56,240 --> 02:56:59,080
Speaker 1: going up against um. You know, Amazon at this point

3347
02:56:59,120 --> 02:57:01,840
Speaker 1: has more resources in most nation states. Yeah, but so

3348
02:57:02,000 --> 02:57:05,120
Speaker 1: did the Carnegies and the Rockefellas and the folks like

3349
02:57:05,240 --> 02:57:09,560
Speaker 1: this and and arm and it's always been hard, uh

3350
02:57:10,120 --> 02:57:13,760
Speaker 1: too long ago in our country, maybe during our grandfather's day,

3351
02:57:13,800 --> 02:57:15,800
Speaker 1: where there was a very good chance to be shot

3352
02:57:15,920 --> 02:57:18,320
Speaker 1: or at least beat over the head with a club

3353
02:57:18,800 --> 02:57:21,480
Speaker 1: from the Pinkerton's if you try to organize, organizing has

3354
02:57:21,560 --> 02:57:26,160
Speaker 1: never been easy, and such as Columbia today trade unionists

3355
02:57:26,160 --> 02:57:30,279
Speaker 1: are killed at an unbelievable clip, almost on a daily basis,

3356
02:57:30,360 --> 02:57:34,160
Speaker 1: and yet still they organized. So I'm not suggesting to

3357
02:57:34,280 --> 02:57:37,480
Speaker 1: any of your listeners that if this is easy, what

3358
02:57:37,600 --> 02:57:40,879
Speaker 1: I am that it has to happen. It has to happen.

3359
02:57:41,240 --> 02:57:45,400
Speaker 1: And there's different models too, Like in some places, one

3360
02:57:45,440 --> 02:57:48,800
Speaker 1: of the models that's been effectively used as forming workers centers, right,

3361
02:57:48,840 --> 02:57:52,240
Speaker 1: So that's not a traditional union. It's a center in

3362
02:57:52,320 --> 02:57:54,360
Speaker 1: a city, or in a community or in a town

3363
02:57:55,000 --> 02:57:58,720
Speaker 1: where workers come together and strategized right at a in

3364
02:57:58,760 --> 02:58:02,320
Speaker 1: a location, to st atogize how to be effective as

3365
02:58:02,360 --> 02:58:05,480
Speaker 1: a group, as a whole, as a class on issues

3366
02:58:05,720 --> 02:58:08,120
Speaker 1: that are important to them, you know, be an economic,

3367
02:58:08,200 --> 02:58:11,000
Speaker 1: be its social, be it um, finding against racism, whatever

3368
02:58:11,080 --> 02:58:14,440
Speaker 1: it may be. That's a model that I suggest folks

3369
02:58:14,480 --> 02:58:17,760
Speaker 1: could could look into as an alternative way. If, for

3370
02:58:17,879 --> 02:58:20,959
Speaker 1: whatever reason, you don't feel that the time is right

3371
02:58:21,120 --> 02:58:23,560
Speaker 1: for a union in your shop today, although it needs

3372
02:58:23,640 --> 02:58:26,280
Speaker 1: to be tomorrow, take a look at workers center and

3373
02:58:26,360 --> 02:58:28,600
Speaker 1: see if there's one in your community. Get involved, if

3374
02:58:28,680 --> 02:58:31,120
Speaker 1: not get together a few people and see what it

3375
02:58:31,160 --> 02:58:33,320
Speaker 1: would take to start when where you live. But one

3376
02:58:33,320 --> 02:58:35,120
Speaker 1: way or another, we have to be organized, We have

3377
02:58:35,240 --> 02:58:37,879
Speaker 1: to come together. We cannot just be a collection of individuals.

3378
02:58:38,640 --> 02:58:41,720
Speaker 1: That's a great point, UM, and useful information. I think

3379
02:58:41,800 --> 02:58:43,480
Speaker 1: kind of the last thing I wanted to get into

3380
02:58:44,280 --> 02:58:46,199
Speaker 1: UM was one of the things I first learned about

3381
02:58:46,240 --> 02:58:49,720
Speaker 1: your organization that you issued a solidarity statement back and

3382
02:58:49,760 --> 02:58:52,880
Speaker 1: I think it was two thousand nineteen UM with the

3383
02:58:53,480 --> 02:58:57,560
Speaker 1: YPG and J and Rojaba. UM. And you've issued you

3384
02:58:57,640 --> 02:59:00,160
Speaker 1: know it stated your solidarity with Black Lives Matter, with

3385
02:59:00,440 --> 02:59:04,680
Speaker 1: the Zapatista's currently what they're undergoing in Mexico UM, which

3386
02:59:04,760 --> 02:59:07,960
Speaker 1: is massive repression from the government yet again. UM. And

3387
02:59:08,320 --> 02:59:11,640
Speaker 1: you know your support of Palestinian rights and of against

3388
02:59:11,680 --> 02:59:14,200
Speaker 1: sort of the U S occupation or not occupation, but

3389
02:59:14,320 --> 02:59:17,960
Speaker 1: a blockade of Cuba. UM. What do you see when

3390
02:59:18,040 --> 02:59:21,640
Speaker 1: we're talking about this struggle, this broad struggle we've be

3391
02:59:21,640 --> 02:59:22,840
Speaker 1: talking about all day, what do you see as the

3392
02:59:22,920 --> 02:59:26,520
Speaker 1: role of internationalism in both in both organizing people in

3393
02:59:26,680 --> 02:59:33,320
Speaker 1: organizing resistance. Well, our starting point today is capital is international.

3394
02:59:33,560 --> 02:59:37,720
Speaker 1: So if we're going to have a foundational challenge to

3395
02:59:37,840 --> 02:59:40,960
Speaker 1: the power of capital. We also have to be internationalists

3396
02:59:41,080 --> 02:59:46,120
Speaker 1: in our outbow. We supported the YPG, the YPJ and

3397
02:59:46,840 --> 02:59:51,199
Speaker 1: the newly elected government in Rojaba because they are struggling

3398
02:59:51,440 --> 02:59:55,600
Speaker 1: for economic equity and a direct history democracy in that

3399
02:59:55,680 --> 02:59:57,480
Speaker 1: corner of the world. We see this as the most

3400
02:59:57,520 --> 03:00:03,560
Speaker 1: significant revolution in in the world, uh in generations. I

3401
03:00:03,600 --> 03:00:06,040
Speaker 1: mean this in our mind is on far with the

3402
03:00:06,080 --> 03:00:08,600
Speaker 1: Spanish Civil War and what we saw around Barcelona and

3403
03:00:08,640 --> 03:00:11,360
Speaker 1: the c n T then or the Paris Commune of

3404
03:00:11,520 --> 03:00:14,560
Speaker 1: eight seventy one. If this was happening in Europe, a

3405
03:00:14,640 --> 03:00:17,039
Speaker 1: day wouldn't go by where this wouldn't be front page news.

3406
03:00:17,640 --> 03:00:21,640
Speaker 1: But in the Western world we often the corporate media

3407
03:00:21,760 --> 03:00:24,800
Speaker 1: terms of blind eye too many of those starters. So

3408
03:00:25,200 --> 03:00:27,360
Speaker 1: they're doing their part, and we have to do our

3409
03:00:27,440 --> 03:00:30,000
Speaker 1: part in our country to the Zabatistas are doing their

3410
03:00:30,080 --> 03:00:33,959
Speaker 1: part in Schiapas in broaderways in some regards in Mexico

3411
03:00:34,000 --> 03:00:37,640
Speaker 1: as such, but we need to reach our hand out

3412
03:00:37,800 --> 03:00:40,960
Speaker 1: and encouragement and say hey, we're here to support you.

3413
03:00:42,120 --> 03:00:44,880
Speaker 1: One of the things we sought to concretely do in

3414
03:00:45,000 --> 03:00:48,280
Speaker 1: the Vermont labor movement is in two thousand nineteen one

3415
03:00:48,320 --> 03:00:51,320
Speaker 1: of our Central Labor count Council's passed the resolutions for it.

3416
03:00:51,879 --> 03:00:54,840
Speaker 1: We said, look, if you go over to fight and

3417
03:00:55,000 --> 03:00:57,920
Speaker 1: volunteer with the YEPG and y PJ, because there's thousands

3418
03:00:57,959 --> 03:01:01,800
Speaker 1: of volunteers right uh, they're volunteered to go over, if

3419
03:01:01,840 --> 03:01:04,040
Speaker 1: you return and your American will hook you up with

3420
03:01:04,160 --> 03:01:07,520
Speaker 1: a union job, and we'll hook you up with three

3421
03:01:07,640 --> 03:01:10,280
Speaker 1: months of room and board so you could get reacclimated,

3422
03:01:10,360 --> 03:01:12,160
Speaker 1: you could get back into the community and get back

3423
03:01:12,200 --> 03:01:14,600
Speaker 1: into the local fight through the labor movement. And we

3424
03:01:14,760 --> 03:01:18,160
Speaker 1: were proud to actually have an opportunity to do that

3425
03:01:18,320 --> 03:01:21,720
Speaker 1: for one returning American fighter in our latest resolution in

3426
03:01:21,800 --> 03:01:24,640
Speaker 1: two one, and this one was broader because it was

3427
03:01:24,720 --> 03:01:27,920
Speaker 1: the whole vermonti a FO, not just the Central Labor Council.

3428
03:01:28,400 --> 03:01:32,400
Speaker 1: We again offered, we encourage folks to feel so inclined

3429
03:01:32,480 --> 03:01:34,680
Speaker 1: if they're in that place in their life to volunteer

3430
03:01:34,720 --> 03:01:37,200
Speaker 1: with the YPG and y p A. And if they're

3431
03:01:37,200 --> 03:01:39,360
Speaker 1: Americans and they come back, we're happy to hook you up.

3432
03:01:39,400 --> 03:01:40,920
Speaker 1: We'll do our best to get you a good union

3433
03:01:41,000 --> 03:01:43,240
Speaker 1: job when you return. So we felt that was a

3434
03:01:43,400 --> 03:01:45,360
Speaker 1: very small least we could do kind of thing, but

3435
03:01:45,480 --> 03:01:50,080
Speaker 1: concrete way to provide solidarity. We all have to stand together.

3436
03:01:50,200 --> 03:01:52,360
Speaker 1: It's really one fight. But the place we're going to

3437
03:01:52,400 --> 03:01:56,200
Speaker 1: be effective is where you live locally, in your town,

3438
03:01:56,320 --> 03:02:00,680
Speaker 1: in your city, and your state and in your country. Yeah.

3439
03:02:00,720 --> 03:02:02,640
Speaker 1: I think that's a great note to end on and

3440
03:02:02,720 --> 03:02:04,960
Speaker 1: a great thing that you all are doing. And I

3441
03:02:05,080 --> 03:02:07,760
Speaker 1: really do appreciate that, and I appreciate you, David coming

3442
03:02:07,840 --> 03:02:10,520
Speaker 1: on and talking to us today. Um, is there anything

3443
03:02:10,560 --> 03:02:13,040
Speaker 1: else you wanted to to to get out or anything

3444
03:02:13,080 --> 03:02:15,680
Speaker 1: you wanted to like any you know, charities or or

3445
03:02:15,840 --> 03:02:18,959
Speaker 1: mutual aid funds or whatever you wanted to uh push

3446
03:02:19,040 --> 03:02:21,840
Speaker 1: before we kind of roll out today. I'd just like

3447
03:02:21,959 --> 03:02:26,040
Speaker 1: to push for folks to go to workout tomorrow and organize.

3448
03:02:26,240 --> 03:02:29,199
Speaker 1: Organize with your fellow workers and let's change the world solidarity.

3449
03:02:29,760 --> 03:02:36,080
Speaker 1: Thank you, David. Robert Evans here, and I wanted to

3450
03:02:36,120 --> 03:02:38,680
Speaker 1: ask for your health. There is a Portland area woman,

3451
03:02:38,760 --> 03:02:41,640
Speaker 1: Ruba to mem She's an Arabic interpreter and a Palestinian

3452
03:02:41,720 --> 03:02:44,800
Speaker 1: liberation activist, and she is trying to save her home

3453
03:02:45,120 --> 03:02:47,440
Speaker 1: at the moment. She's got to go fund me. If

3454
03:02:47,480 --> 03:02:50,760
Speaker 1: you go to save Ruba's house, are you be a

3455
03:02:51,000 --> 03:02:53,720
Speaker 1: on go fund bank, you'll find it. Save Ruba's House

3456
03:02:53,800 --> 03:02:56,280
Speaker 1: on go fund Me if you've got a few bucks, um,

3457
03:02:56,400 --> 03:02:59,119
Speaker 1: she could really use it again. Save Ruba's House. Are

3458
03:02:59,200 --> 03:03:02,960
Speaker 1: you be a at go fund Me? Thanks? Hey, We'll

3459
03:03:02,959 --> 03:03:06,040
Speaker 1: be back Monday with more episodes every week from now

3460
03:03:06,160 --> 03:03:08,960
Speaker 1: until the heat death of the universe. It Could Happen

3461
03:03:09,000 --> 03:03:11,280
Speaker 1: Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more

3462
03:03:11,360 --> 03:03:14,120
Speaker 1: podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone

3463
03:03:14,160 --> 03:03:16,000
Speaker 1: media dot com, or check us out on the I

3464
03:03:16,120 --> 03:03:19,320
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

3465
03:03:19,959 --> 03:03:22,040
Speaker 1: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

3466
03:03:22,160 --> 03:03:25,600
Speaker 1: monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks

3467
03:03:25,640 --> 03:03:26,119
Speaker 1: for listening.