1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: Warning the following episode contains sensitive material. Film is an 2 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: essential part of my everyday life. I studied it in 3 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: college along with journalism, and for a time reported on 4 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:21,319 Speaker 1: local film events and wrote reviews. Now in addition to 5 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: trying my hand at writing films, I programmed movies for 6 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: a few festivals. You could say I was a little 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: more than excited to talk about film and TV on 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: this show. In episode one, you heard me say that 9 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: my experiences watching Partition portrayed in the media left much 10 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: to be desired. I have seen a handful of depictions. 11 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: I'll discuss some of these examples with writers and filmmakers 12 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: Chaunty Dcor and Fatima Uscar, both of whom also have 13 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: their own work related to Partition. Before recording this podcast, 14 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: I had only watched Gandhi directed by Richard Attenborough, Viceroy's 15 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: House structed by Grinder Chad, the entirety of the Crown, 16 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 1: and one episode of Doctor Who. Since then, I have 17 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: watched Garum which means Hot Winds directed by m Satu 18 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: Commosh Pawnee or Silent Waters directed by Sabia Sumar, and 19 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: of course Miss Marvel. Which one should you skip and 20 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: which one should you immediately explore from I Heart Radio, 21 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: I'm Nahasis and this is partition a podcast that will 22 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: take a closer look into this often forgotten part of history. 23 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: Gandhi seems like an excellent place to start. It is 24 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: your base, sick, run of the mill biopic that starts 25 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: out with Gandhi as a young lawyer and how he 26 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: then transforms into the benevolent leader we learned about in 27 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 1: our textbooks. This film was made in two and I 28 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: think it's one that older generations tend to cling to 29 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: because of how massive this film was in every aspect, 30 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: the cast, the costumes, the production value, the sheer amount 31 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: of extras. I'm sure at the time the people of 32 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: India and Pakistan felt like their struggles were being recognized 33 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: by a global audience. In fact, when I asked an 34 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: elder relative if he had any suggestions on what maybe 35 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: good examples to watch, he suggested Gandhi. This film is 36 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 1: considered an epic and movies like this don't really get 37 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: made anymore. It won eight Academy Awards, including Best Picture, 38 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: Best Director, and Best Actor for Ben Kingsley for the 39 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: titular role. It is also probably the most mainstream film 40 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: related to partition in terms of availability and so called prestige. 41 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: My first viewing of this film, I can say with 42 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: the utmost confidence, will be my last. I don't think 43 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: this film was great to begin with, and I certainly 44 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: don't think as time went on it aged particularly well. 45 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: It was truly a struggle for me to get through it, 46 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: not only because it was three hours long and felt 47 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 1: like it, but the utter lack of nuance is painful. 48 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: We don't really get a critical and honest portrait of Gandhi, 49 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: but one that is more filled with hero worship than 50 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: anything else. It is documented that Gandhi was a racist. 51 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: An MPR article from two thousand nineteen states that in 52 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: his early writings, Gandhi made comments that white people should 53 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: be the dominant race and black people are troublesome, very dirty, 54 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: and live like animals. If a film is attempting to 55 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: paint us a realistic portrait of a man, it must 56 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: also include the parts of him that are flawed and 57 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: unethical too. Now we don't have the time in this 58 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: podcast to dissect all that is wrong with the film Gandhi, 59 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: but here are a few key points. Ben Kingsley's brown 60 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: Face was truly unacceptable. He maybe have Indian, but that 61 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: doesn't change the fact that his skin was made significantly 62 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: darker with makeup. Gandhi was directed by a white British male. 63 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: I know this film was a passion project for director 64 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: Richard Attenborough, but when you have someone not from the 65 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: effected community at the helm of a project of this magnitude, 66 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: something will usually feel off. We get a finished product 67 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 1: that is clean and glossy instead of genuine and raw. 68 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 1: We had the villainization of Mohammad A Llegina, the founder 69 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: of Pakistan, so much so that the film was actually 70 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: banned in Pakistan upon its release. Instead of giving us 71 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: an accurate glimpse into the complexities of independence and Burrow, 72 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: along with screenwriter John Briley, decided to create a good 73 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: guys Versus Bad guys narrative. In reality, we know that 74 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: every man involved had their own self serving plan with 75 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: how they wanted independence to play out, including Gandhi. If 76 00:04:57,760 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: you're going to make a film with a hundred and 77 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: nine a minute runtime, at the very least attempt to 78 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: make it more on the mark. The last thing I'll 79 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: say is that Attenborough dedicated this film to Lord Mountbatten, 80 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: the man who oversaw partition and is responsible for a 81 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: good amount of the bloodshed. We see this declaration in 82 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: the first minute of the film that, more than anything else, 83 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 1: should tell the audience what type of film we're about 84 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: to embark on. It was Mountbatten's idea to hasten the 85 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: original timeline for a partition so the British wouldn't be 86 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: held responsible for the fallout. I don't think any Indian 87 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: or Pakistani would ever thank him for his service, which 88 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: brings me to The Crown. Let me preface this by saying, 89 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: I love the Crown. I love period pieces and costume dramas. 90 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: I worship Olivia Coleman, I love Corgis. I even had 91 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 1: a Twitter through I devoted to every corgy that appeared 92 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: on the show. Not enough, if I'm being honest. The 93 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: Crown tells the story of Queen Elizabeth the Second and 94 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: how she ascended to the throne and the many political 95 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: events that took place during her reign. I didn't watch 96 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: the show for research at all, more so because we 97 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: were sheltering in place and it was on my watch list. However, 98 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: that didn't stop me from noticing the extremely small allusion 99 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: to partition. In the pilot episode. Well, I know the 100 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 1: purpose of the series is to showcase the royals and 101 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,840 Speaker 1: their lives. The British Raj was a major part of 102 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: their empire, and the pilot episode takes place shortly after Partition. 103 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 1: In this scene, we see the wedding of Queen Elizabeth 104 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: the Second and Prince Philip Winston. Churchill makes a grandiose 105 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 1: entrance with his wife and sees Mount Batton across the 106 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: church and gives him a very sharp look. As they 107 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: take their seats, Churchill whispers, with much disdain to his wife, 108 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: this whole thing is Mount Batton's triumph. He engineered it all, 109 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: the man who gave away India. I remember watching this 110 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: being like cool, that's a take, I guess. In contrast, 111 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: another popular British show, Doctor Who, actually portrayed the story 112 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: of Partition with respect. The episode Demons of the Punjab, 113 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: aired in and was written by Vinet Patel. Now I 114 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,119 Speaker 1: know absolutely nothing about Dr Who, or the science around 115 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: it or what the police Box does. But when I 116 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: mentioned my work with this podcast to a few friends, 117 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: they told me about the storyline from the eleventh series, 118 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: so I decided to give it a watch. Watching this 119 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: one hour episode completely out of context. I was pleasantly 120 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: surprised it managed to capture the emotion, confusion, and brutality 121 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: of the situation well because it was told from the 122 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: perspective of the people. It directly affected supernatural elements aside. 123 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: We follow a Hindu family in a Muslim family in 124 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: the days leading up to a wedding where their children 125 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: are said to Mary. Tensions arise when the groom's brother 126 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: and his nationalist beliefs clash with the community. The audience 127 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,239 Speaker 1: could feel the fear and the unknown future and safety 128 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: of these characters. Best of all, I did not see 129 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: any British characters, minus the characters who traveled with a 130 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: Doctor journalist Christian Hello from Entertainment Weekly as Hotel the 131 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: following question. Most Doctor Who time travel stories tend to 132 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: focus specifically on English history and it's great heroes like 133 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: Charles Dickens and Queen Victoria. But here the focus is 134 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,199 Speaker 1: an event connected to England, but it also challenges English 135 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: assumptions about their own history and their role in the world. 136 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 1: Was that intentional? Potel responded with a lot of Doctor 137 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: Who history episodes are focused on these great figures like 138 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: Queen Victoria or William Shakespeare, and I liked the idea 139 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: of doing a story about people on the ground were 140 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: affected by a period of history but aren't really rich 141 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: or famous or well known enough where they can just 142 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: shake it off of it, because the greatest tragedy of 143 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 1: partition is that the people it affected were people who 144 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: are not remembered or acknowledged. Making them nobody's to focus 145 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: on them felt like a really exciting thing and an 146 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: important thing to do, rather than focus on the viceroy 147 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 1: who would have been in charge at the time. I 148 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: couldn't agree more. I met with filmmaker Shanty Decor to 149 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: talk about some other films that depict partition. Shanty directed 150 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: a deeply personal documentary about her father titled Terrible Old Children. 151 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: She explores many different facets of his life, including partition. 152 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:08,839 Speaker 1: I discovered this movie when I was submitted to the 153 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 1: Cleveland International Film Festival, where I was curating films. Since then, 154 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: it has gone on to screen at numerous festivals around 155 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: the world. So my father got a letter from his 156 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: father who was still in India, and he only opened 157 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: the letter twenty years after his father's death. And he 158 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: gave me this letter and said, maybe you can do 159 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: something with this. So I read the letter and that 160 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:43,839 Speaker 1: was the beginning of a path to making my film 161 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: Terrible Children. Over the next three years, and I really 162 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: learned the challenges that he had, not just within his family, 163 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: but living in India during the backdrop of partition, which 164 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: really triggered him to one to leave India to come 165 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: to California where he eventually met my mother. And it's 166 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 1: an unlikely love story between my father and my mother, 167 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: who was from Denmark. And I learned the context for 168 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: why my father's family banished my family when my father 169 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: married a Danish woman. Shanti is another person who had 170 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: to find out the story of nine herself, and I 171 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: wanted to know what sources she looked into to find 172 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: out more. Well, because my father never talked about partition, 173 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: I knew I had to learn about it on my own. 174 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: So it was really literature where I was able to 175 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: get like the heart and soul of the stories. Um. 176 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: Two books I learned about were Cracking India by bobsy 177 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: sidwa Um that's through the perspective of a party woman 178 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: living through partition, and Midnight's Children of Course by Salmon Rushdie. 179 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 1: And what I loved about those books was there was 180 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: an authenticity about characters and the day to day moments 181 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: of living in this environment where people had to make 182 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: very subtle choices which could lead to life or death. 183 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: So literature really informed me. And then um, and then 184 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: I saw a documentary, a four part documentary. I believe 185 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: it was from BBC or Channel four, I can't remember. 186 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:23,079 Speaker 1: And it was a very you know, it was a 187 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: journalistic you know, give me the dates, give me the 188 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: politicians name of what happened. And of course I watched 189 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: it because I wanted to learn as much about the 190 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: politicians who were involved and so forth. But there was 191 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:39,679 Speaker 1: really something lacking. It seemed really one dimensional around these 192 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: kind of almost arbitrary conversations between politicians, but not like 193 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: what was happening in the hard and soul of the 194 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: people on the street. I asked her how she prepared 195 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: to talk about partition in her documentary. So the first 196 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: thing I did when I was preparing to make the 197 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: film was I started to write the vice over. I 198 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: had to make sure all the facts were in place, 199 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: but I also had to get to the emotional truth 200 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: of the story, which was my father's story, which I 201 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: was telling. I went to the National Archives to see 202 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 1: what I could use for my film, and there were 203 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: just incredible images that, um, you know, it's true that 204 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: that an image can tell you a thousand words. And 205 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 1: I didn't know what was possible because I had to 206 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: figure out, how am I going to tell this story? 207 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: How can I represent the unrepresentable about these stories if 208 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: I don't have the footage right? So, um, there's a 209 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: part in partition where I found this footage in the 210 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: National Archives. It was footage of demonstration um in India 211 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 1: and where British soldiers were essentially beating Indians out right. 212 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,439 Speaker 1: So I looked in the US for footage, and then 213 00:13:55,480 --> 00:14:00,080 Speaker 1: I also looked in the UK for footage. It's she 214 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: discovered something that shocked her. What was so interesting was 215 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: this particular section of footage which was so important to 216 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: tell the story. Of course, you want to see, like 217 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 1: here's the tension between the colonialists and the Indians, right. 218 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: And then when I was looking at exactly the same 219 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: footage from the UK, it had deleted. It had taken 220 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: out the shots where the British soldiers were beating up 221 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: the Indians, And it was so fascinating to think well, 222 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: this is supposed to be the quote objective history of 223 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: a country that is saved in the archival footage. And 224 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: I thought, well, that's really interesting. And of course you think, well, 225 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: what in America are we not showing this our national history? 226 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: But that's another conversation. But it was so it was 227 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: very interesting to see how different countries represented their relationship 228 00:14:54,720 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: to partition, as well as taking these epic stories and 229 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: turning that into a micro event. I think his children 230 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: of parents who went through partition and who won't talk 231 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: about it so much, a part of our healing is 232 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: to understand what happened on a micro level and a 233 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: macro level. You know, how did this affect our family 234 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: in ways that we have to investigate when they won't 235 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: talk about it. Shanty then describes walking in the streets 236 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: and neighborhood where her father witnessed violent attacks. So when 237 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: I went to India to shoot the film, it was 238 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: just myself and my cinematographer, and I met my cousin 239 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: who is my father's nephew, and he brought us through 240 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: the neighborhood where my father experienced partition. It was an 241 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: interesting neighborhood. Um, it was in Old Delhi. My father 242 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: ran away from home at sixteen. Tolaeth's grandmother and she 243 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: lived in this building that was just on the edge 244 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: of the Muslim section in Old Delhi, and she ran 245 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: an a or vetic business. She had her doors open 246 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: to everyone. She was a healer, right, And so my 247 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: father has this memory of waking up in the middle 248 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: of the night to the sounds of slaughter, and that 249 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: was Muslims passing through the street unaware it was a 250 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: Hindu neighborhood. And this is what he woke up to 251 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: as a teenager, and it haunted him. One Terrible Children 252 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: premiered in Cleveland. There was quite a few audience questions, 253 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: mainly from older viewers. I really appreciate people's curiosity and 254 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: willingness to learn, and whether they come from a South 255 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: Asian background or a Jewish background, or you know. I mean, 256 00:16:55,800 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: I just think that that reverberation of trauma translates on 257 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:05,400 Speaker 1: so many different levels. So if people have never heard 258 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 1: of partition before, that's cool. Let's have a conversation and 259 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: let's start to make observations and share these observations with 260 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 1: each other about how this affects us and how this 261 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: affects our families. Moreover, how do we survive it and 262 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: how does it make us stronger? I wanted to know 263 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: how Shanti's father felt about the seventy anniversary. Yeah, I 264 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: brought it up to him, and it was obviously something 265 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: he was very uncomfortable about. But what I do see 266 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: is that he is deeply, deeply affected by seeing what 267 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: was happening in the Ukraine, seeing what was happening in Rwanda, 268 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: seeing the same cycles of this belief of racial purity 269 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: and ethnicity and how that destroys people. So he kind 270 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: of sees these goes of partition throughout his lifetime, which 271 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: is really haunting. And I think that's something that everybody 272 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 1: needs to listen to about partition, because it is yet 273 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 1: just another example of how history keeps repeating itself. You 274 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: can learn more about future screenings and bookings for Terrible 275 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: Children on Shanty's website shanty decor dot com. I thought 276 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: Shanty would be a fun and interesting person to discuss 277 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: the last three films on my list, so I asked 278 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: her to watch them so we could talk about it. 279 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: All of these films were directed by South Asians. Up 280 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: first is Vice Roy's House, which was released in and 281 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: based on the books Freedom at Midnight by Larry Collins 282 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: and Dominique LaPier and The Shadow of the Great Game, 283 00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: The Untold Story of Partition by Norandera Singh Sarila. Like Gandhi, 284 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: this film was also been a Pakistan due to its 285 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: characterization of Jinna Viceroy's house. Follows Mount Batton and his 286 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 1: family while he oversees the disillusionment of the British Raj 287 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: in India. There is a downton abbey upstairs downstairs like 288 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: way of storytelling where you see the Indians, Muslims and 289 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: Sikhs serve Mount Batton's household as they talk amongst themselves 290 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: about the issues going on as they overhear possible outcomes 291 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: of partition. A felt filmmaker grew in their child A's 292 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 1: heart and intention were in the right place, but the 293 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: general consensus for Shanti and I was that there was 294 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 1: too much information being squeezed into the film. Both of 295 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 1: us greatly admire Childa's work, but here we get a 296 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: cliffs notes version of events, fragments of stories that ultimately 297 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: leave us with nothing. It's so interesting trying to judge 298 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: films on a historic event. We're going to be looking 299 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: at several different films that portraying Partition. But for me, 300 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: the first question is who is the audience? Whoever the 301 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:08,199 Speaker 1: writer director is, they have to think about who the 302 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: audience is, who's funding it? Right? So I mean it's 303 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: a vice stories house. It's showing both the British and 304 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: the South Asians, but it's pretty clear that the primary 305 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 1: and protagonists are the Mount Mountains and we're following their narrative, 306 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: We're following their point of view, and the secondary story 307 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 1: is about you know, Lord Mount Battons, Indian valet who's 308 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: falling in love with the Muslim woman and the loss 309 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:42,479 Speaker 1: of his family during Partition. But that's just structurally in 310 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: terms of the script. That's how it's created, and we're seeing, 311 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,199 Speaker 1: which I think is good. We're seeing both positive and 312 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 1: negative characters in both the British and for the South 313 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 1: Asian characters, but essentially we are being asked to emphathize 314 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: with the Mount Battons. This was another point of contention 315 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 1: for me. Mat Baton was portrayed with an exuberant amount 316 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: of sympathy. I have not read Phenom at Midnight. My 317 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 1: father had read it when he was in school, and 318 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: I did consider looking into it as a part of 319 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: my research for this podcast. I had asked several historians 320 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: and other academics about their thoughts. But this book wasn't 321 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: held in very high regard because it's mostly a firsthand 322 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: account from Mobaton. Combine this with the fact that Viceroy's 323 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 1: House was in part produced by BBC Films and the 324 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: British Film Institute, I can hazard our guests as to 325 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: why his character isn't judged too harshly. But it would 326 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:44,959 Speaker 1: have been very different if the primary story was about 327 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 1: this Hindu man falling in love with a Muslim woman, 328 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: seeing what she had gone through in the refugee camp 329 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: with her father, etcetera, etcetera. So I mean the structure 330 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: of the story I would imagine I have not read 331 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 1: the book that is based on, but the writers and 332 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,719 Speaker 1: the director had to follow that particular story. So I 333 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 1: don't want to ask a square to become a circle. 334 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: It is what it is. But what was interesting was 335 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 1: the scenes that were supposed to be so dramatic that 336 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: was happening on Partition, with the riots and the trains 337 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 1: and and the violence. It somehow did not fall to 338 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:32,360 Speaker 1: me as horrible as it actually was. Whereas when I 339 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: see the suggestions of it in other films and how 340 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: it's absorbed by the families on an intimate day to 341 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,360 Speaker 1: day level or moment to moment level, when we're invested 342 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 1: in those characters, that's a whole other experience. So you know, 343 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: here in the Viceroy's House, it felt more just something 344 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: to keep the plot moving. There were a few scenes 345 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: that planted seeds for what was going to come with partition, 346 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: but they don't really grow in the way that is 347 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: needed to showcase the gravity of the situation. When the 348 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: filmmaker makes it very clear that this is a story 349 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: about a Muslim patriarch and his family, like in garm 350 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: Haaba or Silent Water, where it is a story about 351 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 1: the matriarch of her family and her very problematic son, 352 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,959 Speaker 1: we are clear from the get go this is who 353 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: we're following, and we get their subjective point of view, 354 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: whether we agree with it or not, that's what it is, 355 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: and I think with the Viceroy's House we were getting 356 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: his point of view, but there were just too many 357 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: things going on. At the end of the film, there 358 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: was a message where Chada, the director notes her own 359 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: partition story about her grandmother who fled to present day 360 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 1: India and was reunited with her husband after a year 361 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: and a half at a refuge camp. That is a 362 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: story I would have liked to have seen. When you 363 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 1: can put a phase to an event like this, that 364 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 1: to me is where the audience is going to really 365 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: resonate and connect with the story and characters. I had 366 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 1: the same reaction when I saw the kind of biographical 367 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: summary of of who she was as a director. I 368 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: was like, Oh my gosh, I would love to see 369 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: the film that she would write from the beginning. That 370 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: would be amazing. Unlike Gandhi and Vice Rays House, which 371 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: can easily be found on a variety of platforms to stream, 372 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 1: rent or buy, that was not the case for Garamhava 373 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,880 Speaker 1: or Silent Waters. I could not find either of them 374 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: on Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, HBO, Max or the countless other 375 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: streamers we have at our fingertips. For Silent Waters, I 376 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: was able to find and its streaming online on Canopy 377 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: from my local public library, but different libraries have different 378 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: content available. They luckily also had a DVD I could 379 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: check out if I needed. When I looked for garamha 380 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: The only copy I could find was a VHS at 381 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 1: the UT Austin Library, where it certainly was not going 382 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: to work. I miraculously ended up finding it on YouTube, 383 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 1: but it is unclear if that was purely by chance 384 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: or was vetted to be on the platform. It's no 385 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: wonder many don't know about partition or the tragic details 386 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: the widely available examples I came across given incredibly condensed 387 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 1: version of events. We live in a world where if 388 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: something isn't available in an instant or at the push 389 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: of a few buttons, we are less likely to seek 390 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 1: it out. Accessibility is a big problem when it comes 391 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: to finding more accurate depictions of partition and it's lingering effects. 392 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: Silent Waters takes place in nine nine. We follow Aisha, 393 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: a widow who survived the violence of part Visition, going 394 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 1: about her life in a Bakisani village. She has a son, Selene, 395 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 1: who is lost in more ways than one, and in 396 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: the process of trying to figure out his future, get 397 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: swept up in extremism when some Islamic activists come to 398 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 1: their village. Her son's new erratic behavior triggers a lot 399 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: of painful and traumatic memories for Aisha. This film took 400 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: the well known European Film Festival Locarno by storm, taking 401 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: home the awards for Best Film, Best Actress for Care 402 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: and Care, and Best Director for Sabiya Sumar. Garamhava takes 403 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: place in as AMRSA family are trying to navigate their 404 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 1: lives as Muslims in India since they did not want 405 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 1: to leave their ancestral home. The family struggles with discrimination 406 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: within a changing political landscape. Since both films take place 407 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 1: after a partition and follow a specific family and the 408 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,479 Speaker 1: consequences they must endure from their choices and lack thereof. 409 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: Shanty and I discussed these films mostly in conjunction with 410 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: each other. Something that I felt was very distinctive in 411 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: these movies is that we see the perspective of two 412 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: Muslim families, and that was very deliberate, Loyalty being a 413 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: major theme that overlaps. Before Pakistan everyone was Indian and 414 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: in garam Hova where we really see what identity the 415 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: family prioritizes. They don't want to go to Pakistan. India 416 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: is their home and that doesn't change because of some 417 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: man made border. I think they're so interesting to watch 418 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: side by side because garm Hova, you know, he was 419 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 1: made in nineteen seventy three. It's an art film. He 420 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: was credited with pioneering a new wave of art cinema 421 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: movement in Hindi cinema was for a very specific audience. 422 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: And Silent Water is also an art film. So these 423 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: are two films that assume the audience has some understanding 424 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: of what partition was, so they don't have to go 425 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: through the historic epic scenes. And so both of these 426 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 1: films are so intimate by getting to know these characters, 427 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 1: becoming invested in them, feeling what they feel, being concerned 428 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 1: for them, and that's how it triggers our interest into 429 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:24,199 Speaker 1: what partition is. If we're outsiders, we don't need to 430 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: know the history lesson version of partition, but more so 431 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,719 Speaker 1: how people reacted to it, how it changed their life, 432 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: the ramifications both positive and negative of their actions. That 433 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: is how you get people to engage and care. Throwing 434 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: a number of statistics without context isn't really going to 435 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: mean much to people. It seems to be made like 436 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: it's for folks who are already familiar with partition. But 437 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: when it wins Best Film at the Lucarna Film festival 438 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: in Switzerland. Clearly it is translating to an audience outside 439 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: of the South Asian audience. So Silent Water it was 440 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: made in two thousand three. So now we're we're seeing 441 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: a woman character who has agency and Garaba. The women 442 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: are quiet, they kind of go along with what's happening 443 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: with the family patriarch. I'm not going to judge in 444 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: vent three film with the two thousand lengths us simply unfair, 445 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: but Silent Water it was. What was so interesting was 446 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: from the very first scene to the very last scene, 447 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: we're watching this woman's choice with how she deals with 448 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: her son, with how she teaches young girls the Koran. 449 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: She's very inclusive in her teachings, to her choice of 450 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: talking to her son when he's dealing with Islamic extremists 451 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: and is frightening Lee taking their stance on things. We 452 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 1: learned that Aisha used to be a seek and a 453 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: former life. So when many Seeks are granted permission to 454 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: visit shrines in the village, she makes food for them, 455 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: but their presence also makes a recall memories from her 456 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: past to her choice of giving food to the visiting Seeks, 457 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: and these are quiet, very simple very profound gestures. She's 458 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 1: not calling arms to anything, but these are the areas 459 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: where she has agency and she can make a difference. 460 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: And once we see the film and we know and 461 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: we understand that it was her choice to not jump 462 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: in the well with the other seek women, that was 463 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: her choice to live. And then when we learn what 464 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: her choice is at the end of the film, which 465 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: I won't give away again, is her choice, but this 466 00:30:54,840 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: time her choice is affected by how the whole village 467 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: and her family treated her. It is a story about 468 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: how a woman is using her agency in an incredibly 469 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: oppressive situation. We talk about as sun Selin. We see 470 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: similar situations play out, not only in film and TV 471 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: and literature, but in real life. So many lost boys 472 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: and men are susceptible to radicalization and ray superiority. The US, 473 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: for example, it's home too many of these people. I 474 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: was really taken by the portrayal of the Sun and 475 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: how he was lost. He was under employed, he was 476 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: under educated, he was hopeless. That's an awful feeling, and 477 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: that is a timeless stateless nationless existence, right Like in 478 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: other words, it doesn't matter where you are in the world, 479 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: what century, or what decade you're in. That's a constant 480 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: that you're going to have people in the population who 481 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 1: are under educated, underemployed, feeling powerless. And in so many 482 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: different countries we're seeing like those are the guys who 483 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: will join whatever extremist group, and you can I'm not 484 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: just gonna say it's you know, in this case, it 485 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: happened to be an extremist Islamic in this country and 486 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: maybe a white supremast. So the film was about what 487 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,959 Speaker 1: was happening in nineteen seventy nine. But the beauty of 488 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 1: this kind of storytelling is it becomes universal and it 489 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: is this kind of warning of like, this doesn't just 490 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: happen in this country in nineteen seventy nine. We're seeing 491 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: it right now, and that's the beauty of a film 492 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: that's beautifully told. In Garama, we see two brothers of 493 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: a multigenerational family, Salim and Helene. Salim owns the family 494 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: shoe business and Halim is a political community lead here 495 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,719 Speaker 1: who is the first of the family to move to Pakistan. 496 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: This was a story that was so smartly told. You 497 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: have these two brothers, one who is a very well 498 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: respected businessman who is the main character and the other 499 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: who is he's a kind of religious leader in the community, 500 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: but also an opportunist, and so it's really the businessman 501 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: who sticks around and who has this unwavering optimism to stay. 502 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: And I found it so interesting. There was a quote 503 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: in the film that was said by his brother which was, 504 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: there's something stronger than religion bribery. So day today you're 505 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 1: seeing how this family is disintegrating before your eyes. And 506 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: it's all the more heartbreaking because his father, the patriarch 507 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: of the family, is a man who holds such dignity 508 00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: and kindness and compassion for those around him. Because the 509 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: majority of the mers A family stay in India, they 510 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,399 Speaker 1: see their lives crumble around them. They do not hold 511 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 1: the same statue in the community. They are treated very 512 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: differently by people who are once their friends and their neighbors. 513 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: Their business deteriorates immensely. Multiple acquaintances tell them to move 514 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: to Pakistan, that they would have a better life, but 515 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:28,720 Speaker 1: the mirrors as are steadfast, and their decision to stay again. 516 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 1: I think it's a specific in the story that becomes 517 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 1: so universal, Like we know what racism is in the 518 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:42,720 Speaker 1: Western world, but when we see it there the day today, humiliations. 519 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: It is crushing to watch this wonderful person have to 520 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:52,280 Speaker 1: bear this load of like not getting a bank load, 521 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 1: difficulty finding a house to rent, watching his family one 522 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: by one leave from Pakistan, until we actually see, you know, 523 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 1: something being thrown at him in the street, and it's 524 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 1: just it's it's so hard to watch again. I think, 525 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 1: similar to Silent Waters, We're watching a character make choices, 526 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: day to day choices, and those are the choices that 527 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,839 Speaker 1: define who they are and their morals and their way 528 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: that they're going to survive that fits for them, not 529 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: how the country tells them what they should do. I 530 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 1: knew with that question when MS Marvel came out on 531 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,359 Speaker 1: Disney Plus that I was going to watch it. I'm 532 00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 1: very behind the m c U, but I had to 533 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,359 Speaker 1: watch to this show with a Muslim superhero. Kamala Khan 534 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: is an ordinary girl living in New Jersey with her 535 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: Pakistani family when one day she gets superpowers like the 536 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 1: heroes she's always looked up to. I had absolutely no 537 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: idea that partition was going to be a major storyline 538 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: in the series. Thanks to this show and its creative team, 539 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 1: so many more people in the West know about partition. 540 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 1: Here to talk more about bringing these stories to life 541 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 1: is writer and filmmaker Fatima Ascar, who wrote the fifth 542 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 1: episode in the series called Time and Again, and serves 543 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 1: as a co producer on the show. Fatima uses she 544 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 1: they pronounce. All six episodes of Miss Marvel are streaming 545 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 1: on Disney Plus. Fatima's latest work, a novel called When 546 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 1: We Were Sisters, will be released on October eighteenth, and 547 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,359 Speaker 1: the book is currently on the National Book Awards long 548 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: list for fiction. But before we had our conversation about 549 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: Miss Marvel, I talked to Fatima about their collection of 550 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,479 Speaker 1: poems published in If They Come for Us. The book 551 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: features several poems about partition. I actually hadn't really seen 552 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 1: partition in media at all, and it was kind of 553 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: mostly through the stories of my family that I pieced 554 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,240 Speaker 1: together and figured out we're about partition. I was like, wait, 555 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: what is this event? Like what is this thing that happened? 556 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 1: And it was really then that I was like, oh, okay, 557 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: like I want to learn more about it. And so 558 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,359 Speaker 1: as I was writing If They Come for Us, and 559 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: this was like before it was even an idea that 560 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 1: it was going to be a book, I was writing 561 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: poems that were about Partition, and it was really through 562 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:52,240 Speaker 1: you know, the writing of those poems and and wanting 563 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 1: to do more research that I really started to look 564 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: into that. So it was it really came about because 565 00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,959 Speaker 1: I was very hungry for information and I was looking 566 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,359 Speaker 1: at it, and that's kind of how I found out 567 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,320 Speaker 1: so much about Partition. That was when I was really 568 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: in deep research mode for Partition, and it was very 569 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: clear to me as I was writing if They Come 570 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 1: for Us, and there were so many ethical questions I 571 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 1: was up against. There's so many things that I considered 572 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 1: as I was writing that book, and especially as I 573 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: was writing the Partition poems, and I did an incredible 574 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: amount of research in order to write that book. The 575 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 1: next year, they got a phone call. There was a 576 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,520 Speaker 1: moment in twenty nineteen when Marvel called me in to 577 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: have a meeting with them, and they didn't tell me 578 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 1: what it was that. They were just like, hey, we 579 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 1: would like to meet with you, and I just kind 580 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: of thought it was like a regular meeting. And I 581 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: remember I got to Marvel in my head, I was like, 582 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:43,880 Speaker 1: I wonder if they would ever do like Miss Marvel 583 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,520 Speaker 1: as a series like it was. So was nineteen like 584 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: it was just so different. Um, and I didn't. I 585 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: just didn't think it was on the radar, especially because 586 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: it had been such a few years under publishing, like 587 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 1: she had just come out, and so I was like, 588 00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 1: I think I'm just going to ask them in my meeting, 589 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 1: like hell, if you what what would you ever do 590 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 1: something with that? And then the executive who brought me in, 591 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 1: we were like walking around and then she swiped in 592 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,320 Speaker 1: for a conference room that was just gonna be me 593 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: and her. We walked in. As soon as she shut 594 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 1: the door, She's like, I'm here to talk to you 595 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 1: about Miss Marvel and I was like, Okay, cool, I 596 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:16,879 Speaker 1: don't need to bring it up. You're going to bring 597 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 1: it up. And then, um, that started off a very 598 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,760 Speaker 1: intense period for me where I was I just started 599 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:28,319 Speaker 1: to work for Marvel. I was incredibly curious how show 600 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: and her Bishop k Elie infused Partition with Miss Marvel 601 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: and asked how the idea came about. Fatima explains, when 602 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,719 Speaker 1: we all started to work in the writer's room, you know, 603 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 1: she had an idea and a vision um, but there 604 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:46,759 Speaker 1: wasn't a pilot script yet and we were all kind 605 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: of really working on what would this show look like. 606 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: And it was really beautiful how she ran the room 607 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,319 Speaker 1: because it was very um. There was a kind of 608 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 1: egalitarian quality to it or equal um quality, where it 609 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,840 Speaker 1: was like everybody just was really able to contribute a 610 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: lot of ideas and she was a really good facilitator 611 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,319 Speaker 1: of that, and so it was just really beautiful to 612 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,239 Speaker 1: work with that creative team for um the months that 613 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 1: I worked there. There wasn't a mandate from Marvel that 614 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,759 Speaker 1: was like these are the storylines. It was done through 615 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: Visi's vision and through the writer's in the writer's room, 616 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 1: and so very early on into the process, I actually 617 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 1: talked a lot about partition. I kind of gave a 618 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 1: like a luxury to the writer's room about partition, and 619 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:29,800 Speaker 1: everybody was like, we would really really like to include 620 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: this and the series, you know. And I think that 621 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,359 Speaker 1: that was something that Bisha had wanted um before, you know, 622 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,320 Speaker 1: and it was something that I felt like also was 623 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 1: really important. All the South Asian Muslim writers in the 624 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,480 Speaker 1: room front like was really really important and so um 625 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: that was kind of how that came, and they really 626 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 1: came from the writers in that room really wanting that 627 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 1: and then really fighting to have Partition via centerpiece of 628 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:58,840 Speaker 1: the show. They went into more detail on how Partition 629 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: was going to be represented on the screen. You know, 630 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,920 Speaker 1: in terms of getting into the mindset, it's also getting 631 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,880 Speaker 1: into the characters, Like it's a very character driven story, 632 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,840 Speaker 1: and there were things that you know, even just considerations 633 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 1: around like knowing that it was going to be on 634 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 1: the Marvel, knowing that it was going to be on Disney, 635 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 1: knowing that we were going to do these things, what 636 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,320 Speaker 1: were we anchoring in? And it was very important for 637 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:23,520 Speaker 1: me that we not anchor and I think all the 638 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,799 Speaker 1: writers in the room, Ambishop, that we not anchor in 639 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,799 Speaker 1: like trauma porn, and that this wasn't just like look 640 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 1: how bad this thing was, or look how bad we 641 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: had it. But what we did was we anchored in 642 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 1: a love story, and we anchored in the love between 643 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: these two characters, and we were able to say, look 644 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 1: at this as the backdrop of what we've seen. And 645 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 1: I think for most people in the West, I don't 646 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:47,960 Speaker 1: know that they've really seen images of partition. I think 647 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,400 Speaker 1: that like that is not a thing that folks have 648 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,279 Speaker 1: a visual reference point for. And so you know, it 649 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,880 Speaker 1: was very important to me that that story be around 650 00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,759 Speaker 1: and centered around a train because of the symbolism, the inventory, 651 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: symbolism of the trains and partition, and I think it 652 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 1: was very important for a Western audience to see that 653 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:12,120 Speaker 1: visually and to say, wow, this is what this looks like. 654 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,280 Speaker 1: You know, you read a number and you don't compute 655 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:16,719 Speaker 1: the number, but this is what this looked like. And 656 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 1: I think that that was very important. With each episode 657 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 1: of Miss Marvel, I would get more emotional because so 658 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 1: many parts of the show I can wholeheartedly relate to 659 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 1: on many levels. There is one specific scene in episode 660 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,960 Speaker 1: four where Kamala travels to Karagi and she's having a 661 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:42,400 Speaker 1: conversation with her grandma. Her grandmother tells her my passport 662 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,799 Speaker 1: is Pakistan, but my roots are in India. And in 663 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:50,040 Speaker 1: between all of this there is a border, a border 664 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 1: marked by blood and pain. People are claiming their identity 665 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,319 Speaker 1: based on an idea some old Englishman had when they 666 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 1: were fleeing the country. These few sentences holds so many truths. 667 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,399 Speaker 1: In previous episodes, we talked about the difficulty of going 668 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,600 Speaker 1: back to India and Pakistan and how these borders are 669 00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 1: soul crushing for the people who are in some ways 670 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:21,200 Speaker 1: trapped what I've seen is people be like, I did 671 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:23,080 Speaker 1: not know that you could get that on Marvel. Like 672 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,399 Speaker 1: the fact that you guys did that, the fact that 673 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,400 Speaker 1: you pushed forward and fought and got that on Marvel 674 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,920 Speaker 1: is huge. And I think I've heard that from South 675 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:34,880 Speaker 1: Asian people, but I've heard that from people who are 676 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:36,839 Speaker 1: not South Asian but who are like the fact that 677 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 1: you could include like this deep historical component on a 678 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:47,400 Speaker 1: major superhero franchise like show is pretty wild. And I 679 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,319 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I think so. And you know, there's 680 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,120 Speaker 1: just things that I saw, like Fisha had sent me, 681 00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,319 Speaker 1: like there was like a little bit of a like 682 00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,440 Speaker 1: a Google search history um for you can kind of 683 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 1: like see the Google metrics and stuff. After episode four, 684 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:07,640 Speaker 1: the search results for Partition like skyrocket, Like people were 685 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,520 Speaker 1: googling like what is the partition of Indian and focus 686 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,840 Speaker 1: on and so to literally be like, wow, we like change. 687 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 1: The Google algorithm is pretty huge. And you know, I 688 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,759 Speaker 1: think also I saw a lot of people and a 689 00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,480 Speaker 1: lot of South Asian people on Twitter being like I've 690 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,920 Speaker 1: never asked my family about our partition history, Like I've 691 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,520 Speaker 1: never asked about this, and now I'm going to go 692 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,880 Speaker 1: ask And then people were sharing their stories and to 693 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,600 Speaker 1: do something like that, like to have a moment like 694 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,680 Speaker 1: that in popular culture where you're like, you know, I 695 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,759 Speaker 1: I grew up never seeing South Asian people on TV, 696 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,160 Speaker 1: Like I, you know, it was like I think all 697 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:46,759 Speaker 1: of us did, where it was like there is no 698 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 1: South Asian people and if we have them, their gas 699 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:53,319 Speaker 1: station owners or their doctors, or their terrorists or they're 700 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 1: they're repressed Muslim woman, like, there's really no nuanced representation 701 00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:02,800 Speaker 1: of South Asian people. M This right here is proof 702 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:07,840 Speaker 1: of how powerful the visual medium can be. Representation is important, 703 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,440 Speaker 1: but it needs to be accurate, show multiple types of 704 00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 1: groups instead of showing stereotypes. Fatima mentions a study that 705 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,800 Speaker 1: came out recently about Muslim representation by the Pillars Fund, 706 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:26,120 Speaker 1: an organization that champions Muslim voices. There was justice statistic 707 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,960 Speaker 1: that Pillars issue that was like one percent of characters 708 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:34,240 Speaker 1: on TV are Muslim and of the world's population is Muslim. 709 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:38,080 Speaker 1: And it's really disheartening when you occupy those bodies and 710 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,920 Speaker 1: you occupy those identities to say like damn, like really 711 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,040 Speaker 1: like you can't fathom my existence, Like you can't fathom 712 00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,200 Speaker 1: that someone like me exists. With a rich, complicated history, 713 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:52,279 Speaker 1: with rich complicated identities. And I think that what I 714 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,680 Speaker 1: saw from the show overall was people responding to being 715 00:45:55,719 --> 00:46:00,480 Speaker 1: like I feel seen, you know, thought them has the 716 00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,160 Speaker 1: hope that with the success of the show, more stories 717 00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:08,560 Speaker 1: about Muslims by Muslims can be made. They kind of 718 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,160 Speaker 1: are like a punch in the ceiling, like they allow 719 00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,440 Speaker 1: for more things to happen because people then have a 720 00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,040 Speaker 1: reference point to be able to say, like, well, look 721 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,439 Speaker 1: at the success of this, like look at what they did, 722 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,560 Speaker 1: Like look at how people felt seen. Now we can 723 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:24,839 Speaker 1: make more content that's like this, or we can make 724 00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:29,160 Speaker 1: content that's different. But because this show exists, it allows 725 00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,040 Speaker 1: for more freedom. Like I think one thing too about 726 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:35,479 Speaker 1: representation is that when you're so underrepresented that any time 727 00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,799 Speaker 1: then you have a character that is of Muslim or 728 00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:40,600 Speaker 1: salth Asian descent, they kind of have to be like 729 00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,920 Speaker 1: perfect quote unquote, because then you're like, but then everyone's 730 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:45,640 Speaker 1: going to say that most some people are bad or 731 00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,719 Speaker 1: it's gonna be this representational burden, and it's like, well, 732 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,320 Speaker 1: some mostli people are selfish, like some of some people 733 00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,960 Speaker 1: are assholes, like some Muslim people are whatever, just like 734 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,080 Speaker 1: everyone is and I think that when you kind of 735 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,319 Speaker 1: have the first one to really go than what you 736 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,480 Speaker 1: allow for us people to get into more nuanced conversations 737 00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:08,000 Speaker 1: about what does the slice of life version look like 738 00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:10,360 Speaker 1: for Muslim people? What doesn't mean for Muslim people to 739 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:14,560 Speaker 1: have complicated identities where they're not good or bad, but 740 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,120 Speaker 1: whether they're just human and they get to exist in 741 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:21,560 Speaker 1: this kind of complicated existence. And I think that, um, 742 00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:25,480 Speaker 1: when you have shows like this, it really becomes a 743 00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,520 Speaker 1: blueprint or a openness for more things to be created 744 00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:36,799 Speaker 1: in the aftermath of it. Unfortunately, Disney Plus is not 745 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,719 Speaker 1: available in Pakistan, but MS Marvel was released theatrically there 746 00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,439 Speaker 1: with six episodes being screened two at a time. How 747 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,840 Speaker 1: special for Muslim kids to finally see themselves as a 748 00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:54,960 Speaker 1: superhero on the big screen. The Indian and Pakistan borders 749 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,120 Speaker 1: are discussed or alluded to in some capacity in every 750 00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:02,160 Speaker 1: single episode on this show. Next time, I sweet to 751 00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:07,120 Speaker 1: dr Data a lecture on international relations, so further break 752 00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:15,240 Speaker 1: down this topic with me from an historical perspective, Whether 753 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,600 Speaker 1: the border is open or closed, as you rightly said, 754 00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,239 Speaker 1: is often a question of geopolitics. It's, you know, down 755 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:25,239 Speaker 1: to who's in power, who's not in power. There was 756 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,399 Speaker 1: at one point of bus that went to Lahore, there 757 00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,120 Speaker 1: was a train that went to Taka, right, So there's 758 00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,120 Speaker 1: this kind of bus diplomacy. There are trains on the 759 00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:34,959 Speaker 1: eastern side of the border, and then every so often 760 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,799 Speaker 1: something happens like the Cargill War and these are shut down, 761 00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:40,520 Speaker 1: you know. So there are moments in which diplomacy opens 762 00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:42,839 Speaker 1: up these borders and moments in which the borders are 763 00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:52,160 Speaker 1: closed until next week. I'm Nejazis and this is partition. 764 00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:57,319 Speaker 1: Partition was developed as a part of the Next Up 765 00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:01,120 Speaker 1: initiative created by Anna has Ni, a Joel Monique and 766 00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:06,360 Speaker 1: the Sinia Median. Partition is produced by Anna Hosnier, Tricia 767 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:10,680 Speaker 1: Mukerjee and Becca Ramos. It is edited by Rory Gagan, 768 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:29,800 Speaker 1: with original score composed by Mark Hadley.